the islamic courts were not a monolithic entity and the majority of this popular movement were led by representatives of shafi sunni school, however the movement was hijacked by jihadi ittihadis run by a sub-sub clan of the habargedir tribe known as ayr (ceeyr). The movement became a fussion of tribal warlords and taliban like jihadists. their immediate downfall wasn't only due to the superiority of the ethiopian armed forces, but the islamic courts lost the support of most of the somali people. It is true, that they brought relative peace to mogadiscio, but regions like shabele and lower jubba were ruled by tribal warlords from the ayr tribe. rip islamic courts.

(please read the paper titled, Flawed Sheikhs and Failed Strategies: Lessons of the Jihadist Debacle in Somalia, By Seifulaziz Milas)

we are now in this junction, the world should support the tfg and spell to them that their rule is only temporirly (transitional), and prepare somalis for democratic elections. the international community should discourage any somali regime adopting a sharia based laws and encourage them to adopt secular laws. look at the countries that have sharia laws, saudi arabia, iran and sudan. we don't want to follow those despotic regimes.

As for somaliland, the world should recognize them when they settle their border disputes with non isaaq somalis who don't want to be part of somaliland.

sincerely

muridi
17 years old, grade 11.

why are some states more powerful than others

I have seen and I have heard,
What's been said debated, dejected?
Mad about this and that, that which you've
Haven't a clue, ye scribes know not
You are to blame, nay are all the same?
Read On, read with all that might,
Hunger ye have for us, and those you want to pen.
With all that, which ye practice not.
Look, look closer, closer than ye think!
Can ye see what I see, nay how can you
Blinded by all that folly, think yourselves
Our cream, cream indeed? Just look, look
What's been said 'n' not done
And ye shall see, see ye real-self
True but not bright, shining not like a distant star
A twinkle here and twinkle there, ye write & think
Think ye politically correct, ye wrong!
Far from the truth, led us from our true ways
The Somali way, the noble way our forbearers
Etched in us to live & respect one another.

Having read this entire Washington post Somali forum, from top to bottom. My thoughts were those words above. I am not a poet nor are these words intended as a poem but simply my inner thoughts and anger with many of those Somalis posing as intellectuals or mouthpiece for us poor 'Godforsaken' nation and country. I say 'Godforsaken' not because God has forsaken us (God forbid) but in that we 'Somalis' have forsaken God. For we have forsaken all that is good. Whether they be in the West or East, we Somalis have lost it, lost touch with sincerity and all that comes with it.

May God help us acknowledge our weaknesses and guide us.

The international community, especially the USA and its allies should stop the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC) before it is too late. The world has witnessed their Taliban style regime and the way they treat their own people. On the other hand, it is unfortunate that Professor Ioan M. Lewis is obsessed with the secessionist Northwestern Region's dream, which is basically to split Somalia and its people.

WE HAVE ONE NAME (SOMALI)ONE PRESEDENT(COL, YUSUF)ONE PRIME MNS, PROF GEDI, THERS NO, SOMALI LAND, BECAUSE, THE TRUTH IS SOMALI LAND IS ISAAQ LAND, ITHANKS TO ISLAMIST, BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY HAVE DONE , MOQDISO JAWHAR AND HIIRAAN

Hey Bashir Goth
angry and upset that there are no homosexuals to defend in Xamar like in hargeisa?

well know you know the real reason for your bitterness, those men in South well they were lucky... but unfortunately we all know what transpired into those dark unlit halls in sheikh junior kindergarten rape factory, LEWIS WAS THERE!!

much of the current so called "politicians" including Mr. Goth should get counselling, tough to keep those memories of molestation so what do they do instead, just like whinners lash against freedom fighting UIC?

If you are a man you will take Lewis to court or preferably get revenge!

Hello!
My comments are direct to all panellists and in particular Mr. Goth & Dr/Prof. Warsame. As the son of very well-decorated ex-British colonial solder in the former British East African Squadron in what the British labelled Somaliland but should be correctly labelled Isakland mind you my father was a firm member of grass-roots democratic freedom movement of the SYL in their bid against the colonial enslavement in what should be called Isakland(Somaliland).As far as Isakland(Somaliland)is concerned if nationality is recognized in terms of place of birth; I am born in Togwajale and raised in Kalabeyr and Hargeisa where I finished much of my middle school and secondary school before I moved to and continued much of my post secondary schooling in Egypt and France, and in Canada.

So As stated previously, I am a Somali-lander by definition. What makes me uneasy about the views espoused by some prominent Western and in particular British journalist, academics, politicians, and much of the common populace is the putative self-righteousness that they view the affairs of others. It seems to me the views expressed by both Mr. Goth and I. M. Lewis just reaffirmations of British foreign policy desires in Somalia and their desperate want to break up the country as their agents in Hargeisa have desires to do so.

Nonetheless, It is ludicrous to suggest that Isakland(Somaliland)is a perfect democratic model for Somalia. If Somalia is divisible so is Somaliland if you want to use the misnomer by former British cartographers who had nor a real understanding of that land, its people, socio-economic and political make-up . There lives the people of the Ina' Abdille Hassan and their strongest alleys in Awdal, Sool, and Sanaag. The idea of Somaliland reminds us of the tyranny of the British and how ruthlessly they murdered over a 100, 000 Somalis in one day. I am surprised that the former Said Barre government and other successive Somali governments did not bring the British in front of international courts of the atrocities they have committed against the people of Somalis.

On hand, Africans and Somalis in particular remember European craziness in their missions to convert Africans into Christianity and civilize the so-called savages in the eyes of most dominant powers of Europe during the colonial era. Painfully, we remember the social and the political division that extended to borders even that those European aggressors created in the continent and particularly in the Horn of Africa. Its is no mystery that the whole objective of European powers then was to create foreign markets for goods and acquire cheap raw materials and labour from Africa and the Horn of Africa in particular is no exception.

On the other hand, Somalis used religion as a weapon to protect its historical territory extending to the Abyssinian highlands and a few hundred kilometres away from Nairobi. We know and are suspicious and distrustful of foreign interest and policies of other countries i.e. Great Britain and the US Both of which have already committed crimes against humanity in mainland Somalia and want to prolong Somalis being enslaved by Ethiopians and Kenyans. If Sheik Ahmed Gurey in the 15th century drove and liberated the Christian Zionists of Ethiopia and their Portugese allays form the Somali territory of Ogadenia which extends as far as about 200 kilometres away the town of Nazareth , in what is know called Ethiopia, in the direction of Somalia. It was under Sheik Ina’ Abdille Hassan’s direction and commands that Somalis crash the futile imperial desires of Britain, Italy and Ethiopia; therefore, it is self-evident then that the UIC will crush the TFG, Isakland (Somaliland), and Majertenia(Putland) and the colonial interests they so typically espouse, symbolize or stand for.Time alone will tell, but it seems that the Islamist in Somalia are going to revive that modern and civilized Islamic empire that existed in the Horn of Africa as far back as the time Ibnu Batutas travelogues chronicled. Back then even the most advanced Western nations were being taught and schooled by the scientific and cultural ambassadors of Islam in Spain at a time when western nobles ate rats. And such modern Western state-nations like Canada and the US were nothing mere than a whole lot of vast territorial igloos and wig-whams. The fact of the matter is while the type of Islam practised in Somalia even the Wahabi strains and the Salafi strains are radically different than that practised in the Middle East, the panellist should be reminded that the Somalis share a common culture, social, and political traits and characterization with Arab nations and a natural affinity for all Muslim nations whether free or colonized in the wider wold even the once in the former U.S.S.R. and China. Whatever the internal differences be it Shiite , Sunni, Salafi, Suffism, or Wehabbism, all muslims are all the same because of their unique faith and traditions and their believe in Allah and his prophet. They are all the children of the Ummayid and Abbasyd and all the rest civilizatios of the Empire of Faith.

Having said that if anything Somalis are the beneficiaries of a much advanced cultural heritage that is not governed with the view of the least members of society for their own gains and material wishes and the powerful tyrannical elites as the civilization of the West can fairly be characterized to this day. They are not ready for the current Kharzaisation or the Alliwization of Somalia. They are people who can proudly call a spade a spade and they do not want the current grand Monguls in Irak or Afghanistan; while the Somali people have no particular hostility for ordinary people of the West, any lightheaded intervention on the part of Western governments on Somalis can indeed shift that paradigm and its balancing mechanism at play in Somalia.

Still, I am of the opinion that democracy is a way of government by the people for the people; the West will never accept democracy by a powerful Islamist as was the case in Algeria that still has some back lash of the French government because its direct intervention there. Such is the case for Hamas and the fair and square elections they won and the populist movements in Afghanistan that was choked with sanctions by the West and later attacked for the reasons prompted by the desires of the right-wing political parties and feminists groups and lobbyist that are against the cultural fabric of Islam and its adherents. The west will never accept the existence of other ideologies other than theirs and the dictates of their academics, interest groups, intellectuals, and their official foreign policies. The Muslims will never too stop to think of Western democracies as the swords of Christ and in the same light as that of the Crusaders. With that note in mind. Let me further propose as Somali is concerned the desires of the Crusaders are to divide and conquer through the loyalties they have established in the past with the enemy of the Ummah the so-called pro-British or pro-Italian clans that were oblivious to their cultural and religion destruction and the enslavement of their own kind of people by filthy foreigners who wanted and still want to spread nothing other than ignorance and their rat eating cultural produce.

If anything Somalia and Africa as a whole is saved by Adolf Hitler’s ambitions to conqor Europe. Somalis should all build him museum in his honour and thank him for his aggression on the countries that kept even though we do not believe in his philosophy. But your enemies enemy is your friend and the enemy of the Anglo-Saxons of North America and the British Isles is the friend of Somalis. Thank you Hitler Somalis should all say. As for internal matters this suffices to say:

Furthermore, they are many people that live and reside in that Somali territory that are suspicious and distrustful of the wishes of the Isak elites in Hargeisa. Specially, as mentioned above Somalis from the regions of Sool, Sanaag, and Awdal have a strong desire to be part of greater Somalia. They see the ceremonial parliament as a make-belief theatre for the Isakis and their wish to dominate people that they have no claims upon. We have never voted for their that parliament nor do we recognize its legitimacy in Somalia. They could have a much better chance if they call it correctly Isakland and limit it to Hargeisa, Berbera, and Bur'o. The members in the parliament from other tribes are nothing mere than paid mercenaries in much like the Ethiopian troops in Southern Somalia.

As for international recognition the Islamist do not need it. Nor will they go in front of the Zionist UN that passes resolutions after resolutions that are meant to kill, harm, starve innocent Muslims everywhere. I think Somalis should even ban the UN from getting into its territory and pull out of that all Christian club the wielded to muzzle other cultures and civilization and their way of governance. They Islamists will be recognized all friendly Islamic states and secular Islamic states if there is such thing to begin with just in as much as there is no such thing as secular Western state but the bearer and defenders of the Christian faith and its exertion and compulsions on others they have no claim upon. Somalis must not feel shame on reclaim their rightful civilized traditions as they the Chinese did in their effort to rebel the British drug-lords of yesteryears.

I think it is chauvenistic for the West and their supports within to tell the people of Somali who will direct our affairs. And many Somalis will view this as nothing other than a modernized attempt of past Western colonial savagery they have comitted on the people of Somalia and the wider non-European other peoples of the world.

So you love democracy keep it in your back yard. Somalis will develop their unique way of dealing with thier problems. They ask of you nothing not even your futile chauvenistic lightheaded ignorant ways of thinking and attacking relative any other system that came to pass in this world in its known history. You cannot fool all the people all the time, and Somalis will not be fooled.

Hello!
My comments are direct to all panellists and in particular Mr. Goth & Dr/Prof. Warsame. As the son of very well-decorated ex-British colonial solder in the former British East African Squadron in what the British labelled Somaliland but should be correctly labelled Isakland mind you my father was a firm member of grass-roots democratic freedom movement of the SYL in their bid against the colonial enslavement in what should be called Isakland(Somaliland).As far as Isakland(Somaliland)is concerned if nationality is recognized in terms of place of birth; I am born in Togwajale and raised in Kalabeyr and Hargeisa where I finished much of my middle school and secondary school before I moved to and continued much of my post secondary schooling in Egypt and France, and in Canada.

So As stated previously, I am a Somali-lander by definition. What makes me uneasy about the views espoused by some prominent Western and in particular British journalist, academics, politicians, and much of the common populace is the putative self-righteousness that they view the affairs of others. It seems to me the views expressed by both Mr. Goth and I. M. Lewis just reaffirmations of British foreign policy desires in Somalia and their desperate want to break up the country as their agents in Hargeisa have desires to do so.

Nonetheless, It is ludicrous to suggest that Isakland(Somaliland)is a perfect democratic model for Somalia. If Somalia is divisible so is Somaliland if you want to use the misnomer by former British cartographers who had nor a real understanding of that land, its people, socio-economic and political make-up . There lives the people of the Ina' Abdille Hassan and their strongest alleys in Awdal, Sool, and Sanaag. The idea of Somaliland reminds us of the tyranny of the British and how ruthlessly they murdered over a 100, 000 Somalis in one day. I am surprised that the former Said Barre government and other successive Somali governments did not bring the British in front of international courts of the atrocities they have committed against the people of Somalis.

On hand, Africans and Somalis in particular remember European craziness in their missions to convert Africans into Christianity and civilize the so-called savages in the eyes of most dominant powers of Europe during the colonial era. Painfully, we remember the social and the political division that extended to borders even that those European aggressors created in the continent and particularly in the Horn of Africa. Its is no mystery that the whole objective of European powers then was to create foreign markets for goods and acquire cheap raw materials and labour from Africa and the Horn of Africa in particular is no exception.

On the other hand, Somalis used religion as a weapon to protect its historical territory extending to the Abyssinian highlands and a few hundred kilometres away from Nairobi. We know and are suspicious and distrustful of foreign interest and policies of other countries i.e. Great Britain and the US Both of which have already committed crimes against humanity in mainland Somalia and want to prolong Somalis being enslaved by Ethiopians and Kenyans. If Sheik Ahmed Gurey in the 15th century drove and liberated the Christian Zionists of Ethiopia and their Portugese allays form the Somali territory of Ogadenia which extends as far as about 200 kilometres away the town of Nazareth , in what is know called Ethiopia, in the direction of Somalia. It was under Sheik Ina’ Abdille Hassan’s direction and commands that Somalis crash the futile imperial desires of Britain, Italy and Ethiopia; therefore, it is self-evident then that the UIC will crush the TFG, Isakland (Somaliland), and Majertenia(Putland) and the colonial interests they so typically espouse, symbolize or stand for.Time alone will tell, but it seems that the Islamist in Somalia are going to revive that modern and civilized Islamic empire that existed in the Horn of Africa as far back as the time Ibnu Batutas travelogues chronicled. Back then even the most advanced Western nations were being taught and schooled by the scientific and cultural ambassadors of Islam in Spain at a time when western nobles ate rats. And such modern Western state-nations like Canada and the US were nothing mere than a whole lot of vast territorial igloos and wig-whams. The fact of the matter is while the type of Islam practised in Somalia even the Wahabi strains and the Salafi strains are radically different than that practised in the Middle East, the panellist should be reminded that the Somalis share a common culture, social, and political traits and characterization with Arab nations and a natural affinity for all Muslim nations whether free or colonized in the wider wold even the once in the former U.S.S.R. and China. Whatever the internal differences be it Shiite , Sunni, Salafi, Suffism, or Wehabbism, all muslims are all the same because of their unique faith and traditions and their believe in Allah and his prophet. They are all the children of the Ummayid and Abbasyd and all the rest civilizatios of the Empire of Faith.

Having said that if anything Somalis are the beneficiaries of a much advanced cultural heritage that is not governed with the view of the least members of society for their own gains and material wishes and the powerful tyrannical elites as the civilization of the West can fairly be characterized to this day. They are not ready for the current Kharzaisation or the Alliwization of Somalia. They are people who can proudly call a spade a spade and they do not want the current grand Monguls in Irak or Afghanistan; while the Somali people have no particular hostility for ordinary people of the West, any lightheaded intervention on the part of Western governments on Somalis can indeed shift that paradigm and its balancing mechanism at play in Somalia.

Still, I am of the opinion that democracy is a way of government by the people for the people; the West will never accept democracy by a powerful Islamist as was the case in Algeria that still has some back lash of the French government because its direct intervention there. Such is the case for Hamas and the fair and square elections they won and the populist movements in Afghanistan that was choked with sanctions by the West and later attacked for the reasons prompted by the desires of the right-wing political parties and feminists groups and lobbyist that are against the cultural fabric of Islam and its adherents. The west will never accept the existence of other ideologies other than theirs and the dictates of their academics, interest groups, intellectuals, and their official foreign policies. The Muslims will never too stop to think of Western democracies as the swords of Christ and in the same light as that of the Crusaders. With that note in mind. Let me further propose as Somali is concerned the desires of the Crusaders are to divide and conquer through the loyalties they have established in the past with the enemy of the Ummah the so-called pro-British or pro-Italian clans that were oblivious to their cultural and religion destruction and the enslavement of their own kind of people by filthy foreigners who wanted and still want to spread nothing other than ignorance and their rat eating cultural produce.

If anything Somalia and Africa as a whole is saved by Adolf Hitler’s ambitions to conqor Europe. Somalis should all build him museum in his honour and thank him for his aggression on the countries that kept even though we do not believe in his philosophy. But your enemies enemy is your friend and the enemy of the Anglo-Saxons of North America and the British Isles is the friend of Somalis. Thank you Hitler Somalis should all say. As for internal matters this suffices to say:

Furthermore, they are many people that live and reside in that Somali territory that are suspicious and distrustful of the wishes of the Isak elites in Hargeisa. Specially, as mentioned above Somalis from the regions of Sool, Sanaag, and Awdal have a strong desire to be part of greater Somalia. They see the ceremonial parliament as a make-belief theatre for the Isakis and their wish to dominate people that they have no claims upon. We have never voted for their that parliament nor do we recognize its legitimacy in Somalia. They could have a much better chance if they call it correctly Isakland and limit it to Hargeisa, Berbera, and Bur'o. The members in the parliament from other tribes are nothing mere than paid mercenaries in much like the Ethiopian troops in Southern Somalia.

As for international recognition the Islamist do not need it. Nor will they go in front of the Zionist UN that passes resolutions after resolutions that are meant to kill, harm, starve innocent Muslims everywhere. I think Somalis should even ban the UN from getting into its territory and pull out of that all Christian club the wielded to muzzle other cultures and civilization and their way of governance. They Islamists will be recognized all friendly Islamic states and secular Islamic states if there is such thing to begin with just in as much as there is no such thing as secular Western state but the bearer and defenders of the Christian faith and its exertion and compulsions on others they have no claim upon. Somalis must not feel shame on reclaim their rightful civilized traditions as they the Chinese did in their effort to rebel the British drug-lords of yesteryears.

I think it is chauvenistic for the West and their supports within to tell the people of Somali who will direct our affairs. And many Somalis will view this as nothing other than a modernized attempt of past Western colonial savagery they have comitted on the people of Somalia and the wider non-European other peoples of the world.

So you love democracy keep it in your back yard. Somalis will develop their unique way of dealing with thier problems. They ask of you nothing not even your futile chauvenistic lightheaded ignorant ways of thinking and attacking relative any other system that came to pass in this world in its known history. You cannot fool all the people all the time, and Somalis will not be fooled.

Brother Hirsi Araale

What do you want us give Somaliland to gain its recognision? legal divorce? I realy don't know what exactly you want us do for you. Is there something you left in Mogadishu or Garowe, spare parts for recognision or something? On behalf of Somalis in the South I can give you a "To Whom it May Concern" letter with staps and signature that came to us in 1960 and you left us in 1991. Will this help you?
As to the wars and massacres that took place in the North and elsewhere in Somalia, the truth will only come out in the day of judgement.
If you are a seperate country we don't mind, but why are talikng about our internal affairs? You don't talk about Qatar or Brazil or Nigeria and you don't post messages in thier forums do you? This whole discussion is about a country in the East Africa called SOMALIA

ABDI. You have proved that you are ignorant and don't know any thing about your history. Somaliland and Somalia became republic first July 1960, before this time, there was not in the map, what was called Republic of Somalia, never in history. Therefore you need help, and go to school and learn history, before you blindly support the wolves and foxes who are in the WAREHOUSE in Baidao, which is illegitimate government.

WE HAVE ONE NAME THAT IS (SOMALIA)NO, SOMALILAND,WE HAVE ONE COUNTRY, THAT IS SOMALIA, (THERS, NO SOMALILAND) AND THER WILBE NO TWO SOMALIAN,(WE,ARE ONE ) JUST SOMALI, ALL WAYS SOMALI

THIS COUNRTY NEED PEACE,WE ARE ALL MUSLIM BROHERS,WE DONT NEED AN OTHER PROBLEM, THERS ONLY ONE GOVERMENT IN SOMALI, WE MUST SUPORT,FEDERAL, GOVERMENT,AND ALSO, THANKS, TO, ISLAMIST,WHAT, THEY, HAVE, DONE, TO, MOQDISO, JOWHAR AND HIIRAN

Somalia's Islamic courts are doing a great job for the Somali people. They achieved peace and satability that all other Somali factions and the international community failed to achieve for over 15 years. They should be supported and encouraged to expand their rule in the whole of Somalia.

islamist,will, destroy, again, our, country,and, they, do, not, need, peace,this,islamist, the, new, taliban, of, somali, hate,westren world, and, demoqracy, internatinal comunity, should, help, the, federal, goverment,

Well, ignorance is a bliss. The above was me showing how somali clannish fools would behave experimenting their ESL and with CAPS on

Lets face the truth, WHO CLOSED MOGADISHU PORT AND AIRPORT,its HABARGIDIR CLAN AND NOW THEY MOVED THEIR FORCES FROM THE PORT AND AIRPORT. WHO WAS SAYING "ANYONE WHO WANT TO TAKE RUBISH FROM THE STREED HAS TO PAY MONEY" ITS HABARGIDIR CLAN AND NOW THEY TOOK THEIR GANGS OFF THE RUBISH SO THE MOGADISHU PEOPLE CAN REMOVE THE RUBISH FROM THEIR DOORS AND STREETS. SOMALI PEOPLE ARE AND WERE MUSLIMS FOR CENTURIES AND THERE IS NO NEW RELIGION THEY - THE SO CALLED ISLAMIC COURTS- THE PROBLEM WAS AND IS HABARGIDIR CALAN. LOOK WHY DON'T THEY GO LOWER SHABELLE AND TAKE ALL THEIR GANGS OFF THIS PEOPLE . THEY DON'T WANT TO LOSE THE FARMS AND OTHER IMPORTANT BUILDING THEY ARE HOLDING AS HOSTAGE.

No one hates Somaliland. Forget about this whining and claiming victimization. It shows an inferiority complex. People in Somalia know each other and no one can be fooled again. If you want to be the master of your destiny, all you have to do is simply be proactive and do something. That means instead of talking the talk, walk the walk, just like ICU did. Take control of your destiny. Don't blame others for your misery and incompetence. Be in charge of your affairs and don't compromise your principles. We in Mogadishu, we have been working hard to get rid of warlords for a long time, we were against rape, roadblocks, arbitary kidnappings and all those unbearable atrocities against our people. We have won the war against evil and we will not let anyone tell us what to do when it comes to our future. We hold our future in our hands. We don't care what the world says or what others feel. This is our resolve and hopefully with the will of ALLAH, we will succeed. We believe in peace and work. We believe in consultations and participation. Those who want to join us, they need to show us what they could in their region. ICU is going to work and change things for the better. We are for real and we will not compromise at all.
Sheikh Mohamed Iidle, Wardhiigleey, Mogadishu.

It seems that majority of the Somalis (South Somalia) have one thing in common and that they all have enmity for Somaliland.

I never forget in the 80's when I was young and growing in Hargeisa all the brutal acts that my fellow Somalis especially those from the south were directing against people in Somaliland.

I remember how in the middle of the night goverment soldiers would broke down our front house door and search our house and would not have respect women and children in the house.

I remember how my mother died during the war in 1988's. I rememeber how my auntie was raped in front of me as I was 13 years old that time.

I remember how planes would fly from Hargeisa airport than bomb the same city.

Now, I ask myself where were they my brother, sisters in the South when all this things were happening to us? I leave that for them to answer.

We don't hate you at all despite all those atrocities that have been inflicted on us. We wiil not FORGET what has heppened to you but we will FORGIVE you but one thing is for sure we will NEVER NEVER again joing you as one one country called Somalia.

You have had your chance of leading and unitying the whole of Somalia and you messed that chance up. So, now we have decided to go as our separate way and rebuild our beloved country and to reconcile all our people. We have created a system that allows every citizen in Somaliland is respected and that he/she allows to have her/his god given freedom within the Islamic law.

So,in summary I will say to my fellow brother and sisters in Somalia the choice is yours either respect the wishes of the Somaliland and let us live as two brotherly neighbours or deny us our freedom and rights and choose the path of conflict and war and history shows who will win in the end.....the PATH OF RIGHT WILL SUCCSEED and that is the Somaliland.

What ever the ICU imposes , there is no doubt that they have brought peace and order, and comparing the rape , killing, road blocks and the kidnapping that was part of daily life during the Warlodsim era, contrlloling what people watch on Tv is piece of cake, for those who endured 15yrs of Warlodism.

If they-ICU- are there just to establish peace and stability, why do they have to make Shurea Committee (govermental organization)?Why do they have to impose harsh rules on Somalis as to control what programs to watch in the Tv,etc?

The ICU are grassroots community based force and its leaders are well known Mogadishu community activists who for more than 16 years were struggling to one day end warlordism and insanity. They have stronlgy proved to end warlordism. When you study who is who in the courts especially if you were born and bred in Mogadishu, you will understand what is motiviating the ICU leaders. They are not interested in personal enrichment. Their desire to make change is genuine. They were with ordinary people and have seen the suffering and hurt these poor folks experienced. The ICU is not Taliban and will never attack any country. Their main idea is to make sure warlords and Ethiopina don't keep Somalia in failed state. That is all they want. Sadly the world always favors the blood suckers and the criminals. The TFG is a criminal government. No Somali will accept them.

The Somali TFG and UIC both of them are a liares.
They aren't ready to negotiate for peace and stable southeran Somalia

Wow!, this discussion has unintentionally created a fertile ground for anyone who has an interest in the perceptions and mentality of Somali diaspora. We steered well away from the topic and came with a plethora of colourful diatribes.

This discussion simply represents anarchy, rebellion, counter-rebellion and ad hominem, but isn't this how we convey our feelings in social and political life? Isn't this our natural way of life? Isn't this how the first SAANCAD who came to our land, Sir Richard Burton, discribed our ancestors "turbulent and fierce race of republicans"?

i think it would bear fruit to wait and see what the outcome of The Sudan will be, without precharging.
as to the setuation at present: the only problem is now Ethiopia and its followers(the PM and President) and those behind the seen i.e US. if they leave us alone we would hold hands and rebuild our nation.

Suleiman

How can people be constructive about Zoomalia when she is the mother of all chaos?

Zoomalians must change their irrational stance against order and peace or they shall perish sooner or later.

My advice to you is that ye shall never establish a state again by terror whilst denying the statehood of Somaliland.

Fair enaugh?

Thank you and God bless Somaliland.

This is international websites with many nonsomali guests not our websites that we can discuss our differences in dirty way without harming our image.

For the sake of our image as Somalis, I would like to request all participants to obstain from accusation and nonesense talks by showing some respect for ourselves and our noneSomali guests.
please post your constructive opinion not distructive ones. critiziing of each other can only put wedge into our already weak relation.
I like to encourage those of you who are supporting Somaliland to restrain yourselves by creating friendship within Somalis not adversary because there are many good heart nice people in out there that can be friendly partners stop combining them.

To Abdi Abka,

When there was Hawiye president, he attacked us using home based silly people to terrorise foreign aid workers.

Now with this Darod president, the same goals of tarnishing SL image or humiliations continues by its use of home based terrorists in places such as Lasanod.

Whether Hawiye or Darod, you both delude yourselves Somaliland to be a colony of Zoomalia.

Its not your fault because I blame the rest of the world for continueing to watch us isolated while they spoil you Zoomalians. Maybe its about time we also chopped hands to get attension?

Ciao.

The Exalted Allah says:

When it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the Earth," they say: "Why? We only want to make peace." Beware, they are the ones that cause mischief but they do not realise. [Soorah al-Baqarah (2):11-12]

You will find him - the hypocrite - striving with slander between people or giving false testimony or causing fighting between two brothers or a father and his son. He exerts himself in defamation and he pulls down and burns the towns, just as the straw in the fire, destroying the society. When one says to him: "O so and so! Woe be to you from Allaah! Fear Allaah!" He replies: "By Allaah, I do not wish anything but peace! Allaah knows that I want to join this family and this society and this tribe." But Allaah knows that he intends corruption.

Most of the mischief caused between families or tribes is due to these hypocrites. You will see one of them either giving a false witness or exaggerating or trying to achieve his aims with hypocrisy.

Allaah, the Sublime, says:

There is a type of man whose speech about the life of this world will dazzle you and he calls Allaah to witness as to what is in his heart, yet he is the most contentious of enemies. When he turns his back, his aim is to spread mischief everywhere through the earth and to destroy crops and cattle. But Allaah does not love mischief. [Soorah al-Baqarah (2):204-205]

No Somali(Hawiye) in Southern Somalia and especially in Mogadishu opposes the people of Somaliland. There is no enemity or rivalry between Mogadishu (Hawiye)and Hargeisa (Isaaq). So I advice Somaliland seccessionist fanatics not to create one now. People in South Somalia don't give damn about if Somaliland wants to seperate or not. They have never attacked Somaliland and will never attack Somaliland. They don't share any borders with Somaliland. The only have respect for the people of Somaliland whom they share some lineage. It's Boosaaso (Majeerteen) and Las Anod (Dhulbahante) that you have beef with. Limit your frustrations and insults to them. Hawiye nation has its internal problems which is more important for them and need a lot of work finding solutions. Until such Hawiye's internal problem is solved, your recognition and peace depends on your work and wisdom.

To Dr Sa'ad(SL representative in USA)

May I ask you why take the naive position of assuming the Tribal Federal Gov(TFG) needs to embark upon a new deal with Somaliland when you know the only thing they all agree upon - denial of Somaliland and history?

I only see war since its the only language these Southerners understand thanks to the brutality of the fascist regime of Italy's colonial era. A case of the abused becoming abusers later on.

Unlike in Islam which makes the ideals of peace as a precondition for good citizenship. The people of Somalia make fun of Somaliland by taunting us with words such as:
"They worship PEACE in Hargeisa"

How can you expect to live with these people who see peace as an insult to their identity?

While we want to live, they want to kill, rob and now chop peoples hands off.

Ciao.

To A Hirad,

You misunderstood a post I meant to address a person called Abdul from London and not you. Abdul from London was aghast as to the reasons why the world is not happy for his Muqdisho people once they cleared their Ethiopian backed warlords holding the capital hostage.

Please do stop your insults at the respectable people such as I M Lewis. He is by far thousands times better than our "professors" such as the two Samatars who celebrate every time they deny life to a child from Somaliland.

Unlike those cheering for the Tribalist Federal Gov(TFG) or the Talibanis, B Goth and I M Lewis have not taken part in rape, killings, and looting of civilians.

Also, if you compare professor Lewis to the Samatar couple. Unlike the Samatar's who have not matured from short sighted tribal philosopy as in the recent BBC interview which Abdi Samatar claimed his people to be "under occupation" despite the president of SL to be from the very same people he accused of being under occupation. Not are these two busy with scoring points, but are actively engaged in starting fires in Africa.

I feel sorry for professor Lewis because the majority of the panelists i.e Omar Jama and A Hirad are egocentric whose objectives are only to impress their tribes back home.

Ciao

A few comments about the situation in Somalia today:

First, I've read the many vicious attacks against the people of Somaliland for peacefully deciding to break away from Somalia. They have real grievances that led them to separate from Somalia, and while all Somalis suffered during Siad Barre's time, they particularly took the brunt of his rule. To dismiss the claims of the people of Somaliland does not do any favors to the cause of the Somali people. As it is, for the past 15 years, as the South has continued to flounder, peace, reconciliation and reconstruction have been the priority of the Somaliland people. They have built a country that by the accounts of several international groups (including the UNDP and the ICG) is the wealthiest, strongest and most stable of the regions that made up Somalia.

As far as democracy, Somaliland has held several elections that have been deemed free and fair since 2001. Those who say that one can not dissent against Hargeysa are misguided - the government held a referendum in which 97% of Somalilanders voted for independence. Even in Sool region, where many did not vote, almost a fifth of the people voted against secession. A voice has been given to those who dissent against secession, but the overwhelming majority of the people favor independence. In contrast, Montenegro gained independence from Yugoslavia earlier this year with only 55% of popular support.

Somaliland has held peaceful presidential and parliamentary elections in which a minority (non-Issaq) president and an opposition controlled parliament were elected. There are few African countries where such a scenario could unfold. Credit belongs to the Somaliland people for building a society with broad democratic participation from its people. While there have been government abuses, and while corruption is a serious problem, Somaliland has made true progress and it deserves to be recognized.

My main grievance with Somaliland is the sense that the people of Sool, eastern Sanaag and parts of Togdheer have not been engaged enough to believe in Somaliland. The stake that these clans have in Somaliland should be increased to erase the (erroneous) perception that Somaliland is run by a single clan. Somaliland has a non-Issaq president today; perhaps one gesture would be to have its next president from the Dhulbahante or Warsangeli clans to truly have all the people of Somaliland in the same fold.

As for the TFG, I believe that Southern Somalia has much to learn from Somaliland example of putting peace and reconciliation before petty disputes. It is appalling to see the lack of leadership and incompetence that have come from President Yusuf and PM Gedi. They are leaders without imagination, they have no vision of what kind of Somalia they want. They seem content that their country has collapsed; after nearly two years in power, can anyone point to any tangible accomplishment they have achieved?

The ICU deserves credit for bringing peace to southern Somalia but its distortion of Islam to suit its own needs will do long term harm to their cause. To stop Somalis from watching World Cup games when theocratic states like Saudi Arabia and Iran fielded teams is ludicrous. The TFG would at least be wise to incorporate those moderate elements of the ICU into the government and sideline the extremists.

With Ethiopian meddling in Somalia, and a stalemate between the ICU and TFG, things seem dire for Somalia. The ICU is run by extremists whose welcome by the Somali people will soon be exhausted; the TFG is run by inept people with questionable backgrounds. It would be wise to leave Somaliland alone in peace and focus on building a Somalia that is at peace with itself and its neighbors.

i believe islamist court made tremendious change to the somali policy after when they defeated the cruel warlord.
they are still trying to empower the the peace and stability in mogdisho and surounding areas.
in point of view about islamist court, they are very good to rule sharia law in somalia because somali people are hundrend per cent muslims and they need law and order.
in my suggestion, i recommend that islamist courts must announce the national reconcialition conference held in mogdisho to make solution the diffence between somalis,
and elect new president which all somalis agreed forget about baydaba government.

It is shame to see a reputable great paper like WP had chosen people from one minor region and minor clans to represent Somali politics. Some of the penalists have a tainted and questionable past. The post should seek diversity of opinions. They should also do some research before they make some embarrassing blunder. I am really impressed the views and reactions of sincere Somalis particularly those who are young and care less about clan politics. This forum and debate was hijacked by clannish clowns like Hirad and Omar Jamal and the choice of the likes of Lewis and Goth worsened things. I would recommend the Post to compile what was said and conclude this nonesense before the clannish clowns of Puntland and before the biased Somaliland activists penalists return to clash . The post should learn from this and next time it embarks on doing a program like this about Somalia should choose reputable and non-biased Somali scholars and academicians who are objective and impartial. I would recommend the likes of Samatars and Nuridin Farah and please incluse Somali women's voices and remeber Somalis is basically Mogadishu. The sad thing is the elites are in the West as refugees. They gave up on ever returning to Somalia because the Somalia they knew was a facade and was an illusion. The real Somalia is now different and is dominated with people who are more in tune with Africa and Arabia than with the west. People also saw what the UNISOM and UNITAF did. They believe the Islamists did better with the little they had. Somalia is for Somalis and it is important for Somalis within Somalia to sort out their differences. There are some good people in the weak TFG but the leadership, ie, the warlord president and the prime minister need to go. They are stooges and warlords. The Daarood people should re-examine their support for Warlord Yusuf and should engage opening dialogue within their good leaders like Jama Ali Jama who are marginalized. The Hawiye did great job of getting rid of warlords. It is now Digil & Mirifle who got few warlords and Daarood who got the worst warlord of all, namely Yusuf who is inviting Somalia's historical enemy in the country to keep his presidency which is about to end soon.

Although every eye can see the positive impact the courts had in the resotoration of peace and order in the capital and the surrounding areas.it is importantant to know that they are an organisation and not a government. Many parts are also looking at them in suspiciouse eyes including some of the neighbouring countries and the USA who is a mojor power and a donor country.
Thus we can say it is obvious the current victory will not last long unless it gets a legitimacy stamp which is a government recognised by the international society and has official authority to reperesent the country.
In the otherhand It is very premature to brand this group as a new taliban and try to use force to remove them by using intrernational force or regional one as the ICU seems to be very popular now.
the transitional federal government based in biadoa is very fragile and was fleeced with tribial differences and lack of trust among its members from the day it was established thus can not function successfully unless they get support and blessing from the courts Union.
thus it is important to give umble time and support to a peaceful settlement to the power struggle and the network of conflict of interest in the region.

You know what? Hirad, Omar Jamal and all the Puntland sissy cheerleaders of warlord Yusuf have nothing value to add this debate and are just pathetic clannish losers. The likes of Bashir Goth and the his master colonialist Lewis are too old too weak to even see their wicked plan of seccession. Somaliland and Puntland are both barren deserts, no resources, no manpower and the administrations there did nothing tangible. people there are all crazed with Khat and are not that productive. The heat and the idleness there is unbearable. The peace there exists only because two minor clans Isaaq and Majeerteen live there and dominate everything. They are not as influential as before due to their small numbers and lack of finance. Mogadishu and Kismayo on the other hand are booming with business even when these cities were not stable. Now that both cities are peaceful, ports and airports are open, business opportunities are abound, investors are competing for opportunities and that is what the ICU accomplished. They have done this thanks to people and business community. I applaud Sh. Hassan and heroic ICU comrades. I despise all the fiefdoms, landers and whiners.

Question to all panelists:

Has any of panelist been to Mogadishu after capture by ICU forces?

Inviting Ethiopia into Somalia - not in my name
By: Mohsin Mahad
August 31, 2006

In the face of all kinds of crimes committed against our country by monstrous warlords and other vile racketeers since the overthrow of the Somali government in 1991, and in the light of our collective helplessness and impotence, we the Somalis have chosen, to acquiesce, close our eyes, or at best look the other way. But even if the warlords are gone thanks to the Islalmists, we still continue to be passive spectators when new crimes are being committed against our country. I never thought I will ever see the day when a so-called Somali "president" and his "prime minister" will unashamedly act as puppets in the service of their Ethiopian master. Worse still, I never thought I will ever live the day when a Somali "president" would go to the extent of inviting the army of our arch enemy into our country in order to protect himself from his own people. No less dishonourable are the rest of his "government" and "parliamentarians" in Baidaba for whom being part of this circus for their own personal gain is more important than in rising to their national duty by deserting and dissociating themselves from this so-called government and its institutions.

But the man who tops the list of the quislings for Ethiopia is a former general of the Somali national army and currently the president of Puntland. That disreputable citation goes of course to no other than General Adde Muse. It is shocking enough that he should invite the Ethiopian Army into Puntland. But he adds insult to injury and goes over the top when he goes on the airwaves- the BBC Somali Service - and shamelessly justifies the incursion of the Ethiopian army into our country as an extension of what he calls our historical friendly relations with Ethiopia. What a travesty of history!!

So, General Adde Muse portrays Ethiopia as our historical friend notwithstanding the fact that it is the century-old colonizer of the Somali Ogaden region, the meddler in Somali affairs since the collapse of the Somali government, and the one who daily perpetuates our civil war, arming one group against another and one warlord against another in order to ensure that Somalia never stands on its feet again as one united country. Thanks to leaders and people like General Adde Muse, Ethiopia has succeeded to reduce Somalia into Bantustans, maintaining its hegemony over its various client regional administrations in Somaliland, Puntland and until recently Jowhar and Hiiraan regions. What makes Adde Muse's stand and his statement on the BBC Somali Service all the more unpalatable is that it comes, of all people, from a former general from the famous and honourable Somali national army, the bastion of our territorial integrity and the defender of our honour and unity against Ethiopia's imperialist designs on the Somali homeland . One wonders how a man of that character and calibre could ever have reached the highest rank that the state could offer a soldier.

In his recent BBC interview, Adde Musa had the effrontery to portray the presence of the Islamists in Mudug region, in their own country, as an invasion by alien forces (he means Hawiye) while casting the presence of the Ethiopian army in our country as a response to the friendly collaboration between Puntland and Ethiopia!! .Just as the warlords had for years thrived on scaremongering and the bogey of the Daroods coming back to occupy Mogadishu as a sure way to whip up hysteria and support for their rein of terror in the areas under their occupation, so is Adde Muse using the same tactic but this time he is vainly resurrecting the spectre of the Hawiye coming to occupy Puntland. Little does he know that the Somali people are no longer hoodwinked with this kind of crude clan chauvinism and that they had come of age through their bitter experiences with self-appointed warlords, tyrants, and self-seeking opportunists, all from their own respective clans.

Adde Muse had no qualms in the least about taking his dastardly action and claims to have taken this action on his own accord as president of Puntland in pursuit of the interest of his people in Puntland. What nonsense from a general who perhaps has never been initiated on good governance and public accountability. As another arrogant, upcoming African mini dictator, he takes it for granted that his whims and wishes are the same as those of his people. He does not therefore see the need to respect the wishes of the people of Puntland, the overwhelming majority of whom are undoubtedly aghast at his action - certainly my own Darwiish homeland. in Sool, Sanaag and Cayn. His own style of leadership and the conduct of his so-called "government" and "parliament" in Puntland are mirror images of that of his mentor, "president" Cabdillahi Yussuf, and his "government" and "parliament" all marooned in Baidhaba. Apart from an honourable minority, the rest are hangers-on who are there for lining up their own pockets.

Unlike Cabdillahi Yussuf, Gedi and Adde Musa and their other fellow associates in Baidhaba and Garowe, the Islamists are popular by contrast throughout Somalia because of their achievement in Southern Somalia and the aspirations they raise that Somalia would at last be exorcised of the evils that bedevilled it during the previous 16 years. Ordinary Somalis, desperate for peace, justice, and normality have given up on the clique in Baidhaba and are understandably turning to the Islamists for salvation. Islamist leaders such as Sheikh Shariff Ahmed and Sheikh Aways may lack political experience, but that is only a small minus compared to their otherwise unquestionable integrity, nationalism and Islamism. If the Islamists were to rule the whole of Somalia, it can only be better than it is today under Cabdillahi Yussuf and Gedi and Adde Muse. Given the pressure from the West, who are irrationally obsessed with Islam, much has to be said for the formation of a national government as Washington is advocating. In realpolitik, we have to accommodate their concerns to the extent possible while also ensuring our own self interest and national goals. So let there be a national government n which the Islamists and TFG share power. But it should be one in which most key ministries are in the hands of the Islamists. Presient Cabdillahi Yussuf can be allowed to enjoy what remains of his miserable presidency but it should be men like Sheikh Shariff, or Jama Mohamed Ghalib who should be on the driving seat. It should be good riddance to Gedi and company and no less to Adde Musa. My own Puntland could then redeem itself and take its honourable rightful place in the new Somalia which was born thanks to Allah and his faithful Islamic courts.

By Mohsin Mahad
Emai:l mohsinmahad@yahoo.co.uk

Abdalla

I want to know what has Abdullahi Yusuf done for his people that is good, I mean you see what is happen now and what he did before, he has caused more disgrace and problem for us than good. he is the loser because he does not care for us. 1995 he was trying to become Aydiid's prime minister in Mogadishu while we were being slaughtered in front of him by aydiid goons!

because of him ethiopians are abusing none other than his own people in balanbal and puntland? So we are going to die again for this loser... We must get a better game plan, this is not going to save our interests

I think we should tell him the truth

To me this is the best time for the young somali nation since independence day 1960, we got international airport back in business, no more discriminatory 4.5, peace in mogadishu and all of south so why is Bashir Goth, Hirad and company crying about UIC? It could well be that they fear the upcoming boom time in xamar won't go to their clan folk warlords, which is very much the case, long live Sheikh Dahir Aweys and all honoured patriots!

Some Somalis(here)have lost their sense of direction and self. Especially Somalis in the diaspora lost a lot and are as confused as anyone else. As a young Somali who was born outside of Somalia(Rome, Italy) and went back to Somalia (Mogadishu) for the first time in her short life, I would say to all, Somalia needs you. Stop the nonsense and do something positive. Somalia and its people suffered an unbearable suffering but still the people I saw in Mogadishu and Shabelle region are amazing.I am sure people in other regions I didn't see are also amazing. The people back home(yes Somalia is my home) still have their dignity and they are still hopeful amidst such suffering and destruction. I grew up in secular western culture and a lot of Islamic notions are quite strange to me but I could tell you as a person of color, of mixed race, who grew up in xenophobic western society where racsim and color skin is the criterion for success and opportunity, I would say Islam is hope for justice and equality for the poor and downtrodden on earth. it uplifts people and its universal message is appealing even to strangers whose human soul is intact and not corrupted by modernity. I decided that my call is to work in Somalia, in Mogadishu and work with the ICU, civil societies, women organizations. And YES, the ICU is positive force, it is a force for peace and postive future. They may call them names but what names could do to a people who survived the brutal civil war? I think Somali women, men, children in Somalia, regardless of what region, deserve our admiration for the spirituality and strength. Finally, we need to support people who want peace. The TFG is not representative of Somalis. Somalis don't see it as their government but an imposed entity from its enemies. It is selected by Ethiopia that armed the bloodthirsty warlords. Still, there are warlords in the TFG. The president is a warlord as I have been told. he has been warlord for more than 30 years. DIO MIO! that is not right. Don't support a warlord please. Don't listen to lies. Listen to Somali people. Listen to the ICU leaders. They mean business. They want peace and they are no threat to anyone.

As I observed for the first time, it is evident to everyone by now that we Somalis are missing golden opportunity to tackle the question at hand. Is the UIC take over positive step in the right direction or not?
In my view it is positive step. One does not have to be rocket scientist to realize that. For fifteen years Mogadishu was under siege and the inhabitants of Mogadishu were hostages for the ruthless warlords.
Is not it refreshing and worth appreciationg if the roads, the airport, and port are open? Is not it God sent blessing if one can walk in the streets of Mogadishu without being mugged?
Is not it worth appreciating if there is process of letting people have their houses and properties back? Is not it worth to appreciate even entertaining the notion of starting the process to kick everyone who is occupying a home or business that one is occuping illegally?
Somaliland, Puntland, and TFG are all run by ex Siyad regime military officers, are not they?
As far as I know I am from Somaliland and I know for a fact there is no democrazy in the real sense of the word at there. If there is democrazy no one could have the power to increase five years for the upper house of parliament. That is the latest news from Somaliland. What kind of democrazy is that?
Puntland is ruled by Ex military general, is not it?
The TFG is composed of punch of warlords, is not it?
As I penned down last time, UIC deserves to be commended and applauded by bringing law and order to Mogadishu and saving many lives.
Let us all support them, and request the leaders of UIC to get rid of ex military and police officers who have blood in thier hands who may taint the noble endeavor the UIC under took.
Let the UIC spead to every hamlet in Somalia.

The Islamist do really have influence in Somalia. Note the question that has been posed is very deceptive. One must differentiate the Islamist from ICU in Mogadishu. Indeed, Somali people are predominantly Muslim and there are many people/orgnizations that filled the role of the State and hence offer social services to the needy and less well off. Some even give protection to the defenceless from well armed thugs.
Now, those of you who are political animals and want to debate on ICU vs TFG, my take is neither ICU nor TFG has legitimacy to rule Somalia. When one speaks of Somalia, we are talking about the entire country. So far our people are too divided and I beleive it needs more time to heal the old wounds by forgiving each other and coming back to our duty to form a just State, a state that has a society that cares one another and has a shared responsibility.

To that end, the Islamist has done well where other people have failed. When I say Islamist, I do not mean those who have a political ambitions with clan ambigiuty, but those who subscribe Islam as peace loving religion that cares the less fortunate who are caught with the civil war and statelesness. Neither ICU nor TFG has these qualities, but both have political goals of ruling Somalia.

Dear Koshin,

Neither Abdullahi Yusuf nor any of his contemporaries are the right material to restore the state. Alas! We have all been fooled to think that the Somali political elite--warlord or no warlord (and I do not know the difference)--would (could) ever stick to their shared agreements and interests (even for their own sake) and see through the process of reinstituting government. Abduallhi Yusuf is only one of them. They elected him. We did not. Now they do not like him; and they do not even have a replacement. It seems, nowadays, people are building some hope around the Islamists. Too late for me to dream any more; and have my hopes fail. I am just praying for the best possible for us, Somalis. Actually, the next possible thing one can hope for is that something encouraging comes out of the Khartoum Meeting-just to keep the hope alive.

N.B THIS may be out of topic but I posted in responding to following letter and many similar opinions that always appear in somaliwebsite like hiraan.com

"How come we don't see Somali nationalists such as Prof. Abdi Samatar on this panel? This is a panel of secessionists and their colonial masters"

Posted by: Mohamed Hussein, Mogadishu

Those of you who are from south Somalia, why do not you Just leave Somaliland and those who support them alone instead of calling them names like secessionists.

We Loved united strong Somalia and We did sacrifices (gave up the sovereignty that we looking for today) 46 Years ago in order to achieve greater Somalia but
unfortunately our fellow Somalis didn't get it. Instead of understand our good heart they destroyed our cities, rape our women and kill our children. I remember when I was growing up in 1980s all I was afraid of was Somali government and its soldiers even though I was very young child. Many fellow schoolmates, cousins and fellow children were killed. Many other children experienced the raping of their mothers, sisters and fellow citizens in front of them.

Today, we have no hatred for any body, you are our brothers, sisters and neighbors but we do not want to make same mistake that our fathers made. In other words we rather have peaceful free smaller Somaliland than unstable bigger Somalia.
Today, all we want, all we want, is to have our sovereignty so we can raise our children in peaceful way and rebuild our devastated cities and infrastructures.

Finally let me remain my fellow country men that screaming for united Somalia like Samatars, we love united Somalia but we do see it for this time and the majority of the people in the region are supporting
S/Land independence. Take part the rebuilding of your country and be part of the realistic Solution not daydreaming somaliweyn).

I also like to remain my southern brothers, particularly Mohamed Hussein, as our leaders Mr. Riyale, Mr. Faysal, Mr. siilaanyo and many SLnders said we support the peace and the well being of Mugdishu people and those who brought them ICS.

But you have know the more you try to applaud our minority (call them heros and nationalist), ignor our self determination of majority and push for union the more you screwing up the hope of future united somalia. this will only strength our determination.
we were the ones that made union 1960s possible with oppositation of Mugdhisho people, and United Kindom. and today we ready to make Separation possible with opposition of Southern somalia, Arab countries, Italy and many other powerful nations that trying hard undermine our ambition (independent SOMALILAND). We will over come all obstacles inshaallah.

about time the Southerners woke up to the parasites in their midst, 15 years was too long, now their leaders should repay everything SNM did for USC revolution, which is should recongize Somaliland republic and establish diplomatic ties.

As for you Hirad

You're absolutely right: NO ONE NEEDS TO KNOW WHO YOU ARE! It is abou majorities in the north and south, the Southerners and the Republic of Somaliland taking their destiny in their hands

GOD BLESS THE FREE,
SOMALILAND COMING TO AN EMBASSY NEAR YOU cry cry!

Abddalla

don't listen to these people
we could care less for the these ICUs and hate them for ruining things like aydiid

but I know that
It does not matter, for we are doomed in somalia
there is nothing that can save abdullahi yusuf because he is the stupid problem. Why can't he listen to his people? He is now destroying our collective future in somalia and now wants to bring ethiopian, kenyan and ugandan troops to puntland and abudwaq, to do what?

He is just helping hostile successionists in hargiesa and angry Hawiyes in South alienated against us, what is there left for us to do?

Warsame Khair or Odweyne, whatever you are! you wrote: "who is this clown Hirad making southern "somalis into " . 5"?
what happened to sticking to xaartiland?"

Stop the slander, and show respect; you are speaking in a public forum. Stick to the topic. You do not need to kow who I am! Can I ask the moderator to maintain order in this discussion, perhaps filter out the language, if warranted? Regards.

The above big lie about the ICU unveiled by the self-styled Doctor from Somaliland and his thoughtless analysis are poisonous and detrimental to any reconciliation reached in Somalia. How depressing it is to see learned men who can't put aside their instinctive and primitive clannish tendencies? I just feel sorry for Somalis when their elite is just behaving like illiterate camel-herders. Well, while you guys will rot in exile and Somalis back home will strive to rebuild the country and just be aware everything said and expressed here is recorded and kept for potential reckoning.

Some people are more clannish than others. people from Somaliland and Puntland need "dhaqin rogid" or cultural revolution. They are too clannish to even think

The people of the Mogadishu want peace, they want their kids to have a future, to go to school, to play soccer at the beach, to experience the beauty of the Indian Ocean and they want their children, and maybe themselves, to have a prosperous life free of violence and bombs. for the last 16 years they knew violence, killings and rape at the hands of the Ethiopian backed warlords.
The people of Mogadishu support the ICU that is making this dream attainable. I support the ICU, my family and my clansmen support the ICU. We love all Somalis and we want them to live in peace and we want them to get along and to just solve their differences in dialogue without resorting to lies, finger pointing, villifications. It is simple and easy process that all civilised people in the world do. let us do the same.

he latest big lie unveiled by Washington's neoconservatives are the poisonous terms, "Islamo-Fascists" and "Islamic Fascists." They are the new, hot buzzwords among America's far right and Christian fundamentalists.

I am Dr. Saad Noor, Somaliland's Representative to the USA. I have prepared this for and in response to this PostGlobal discussion:

The Courts

The issue of the Islamic courts and their impact on the area, whether they are going to be for good or bad, is a mixed one. On the one hand, if there is any indication bout what the courts have done, it lies in their relative success, thus far, in achieving at least some semblance of peace on the streets of Mogadishu, the former capital of the now defunct Somali Democratic Republic.

On the other hand, as far as many well-informed regional observers and the government of Somaliland are concerned, the courts, do pose an unmistakable strategic threat to the Horn of Africa region, parts of the Arabian Peninsula and the Red See basin. This is because they don't hide their belief in professing the emergence of an Islamic Republic, ala Taliban, which is expected to be called the Islamic Republic of Somalia.

As such, they definitely do not recognize the boundaries inherited from colonial administrations in the region. Nor do they see the validity of any kind of a legal separation between the Somali-speaking communities in the Horn no matter under which flag they live in including that of Somaliland. Thus Somaliland's freestanding status and the sovereignties of the countries with large Somali populations over their Somali citizens and the areas they inhabit are not recognized by the courts.

Moreover, they see the Koran as the divine constitution of that Republic and anyone, who disagrees, is viewed as anti-Islam and a stooge of the West. In this vein, they consider the toppling of the two major secular republics in the Horn, Ethiopia and Kenya, a strategic necessity so as to declare the whole Horn an Islamic gateway to the Eastern and Central heartland of the continent. Somaliland's fate will not be any different for they loathe it for being a liberal secular democracy with a constitution though its philosophical and spiritual underpinnings are predicated on the sprit and the fundamentals of Islamic jurisprudence. It is nevertheless a civilian constitution with civilian courts like those in Egypt, Jordan, Libya and Syria.

Based on the foregoing, the Courts' ideology and political posture can only be seen as precursor for instability in the region. It may create a situation where the Horn could become a flaming theater for clashes to come between the forces of moderation and religious extremism.

Needless to say that the primacy of the Courts, particularly if as expected they hook up with Islamists in Saudi Arabia and Yemen, would also be a threat on the Arabian Peninsula and international water ways such as the Gulf of Eden and the strategic Red Sea entrance at Bab Al Mandeb as well as the contiguous Arabian Sea. Most international petroleum shipments pass through those strategic waterways.

The Transitional Federal Government (TFG)

On the other side of the equation--in Somalia--Stands a dwarfed entity the (TFG) which was created by the international community through a group of Warlords and an assortment of unknown political hobos in Nairobi, Kenya. Lead by an aging military dictator of ill reputation and debilitated by internal dissention, it has become a lonely prisoner in the remote town of Baydawa in north western Somalia. It certainly is no match for courts because it commands neither popular support nor influence. As such, prognoses for its survival is not encouraging to say the least.

Seasoned political observers believe that apart from its structural problems and its other destabilizing imbalances, the TFG's basic problems lie in its week strategic planning and indeed its poor political acumen. They lament the TFG's failure to capitalize on its secular outlook and forge solid relationship with Somaliland, the only functioning secular democracy in the Somali speaking region of the Horn, because it has failed to drop and indeed go beyond its unrealistic rhetoric for the reincarnation of an impracticable Somali unity.

The way forward

In the interest of peace and tranquility in the region, the international community, including Ethiopia and Kenya, should come to the inevitable conclusion that the time is ripe for taking a bold action to solve the Somali problem. The basis of this action/policy, if you will, should be the containment of the spread of Islamic extremism personified by the Courts as a matter of priority. The best and the most effective way for the operationalization of this policy is to first recognize the Republic of Somaliland. Somaliland will then shoulder the responsibility of serving as the bulwark for strengthening the fledgling secular forces in Somalia until the desired balance is attained for the creation of a functional moderate and representative entity in Somalia. Failing that will be a recipe for disaster and a harbinger of calamities to come.

I believe Washington Post made an inconceivable gaffe by its choice of the panelists. They are not representative of Somalia and have recognized prejudices towards people of Southern Somalia. But that kind of mistake is forgivable because of their lack of knowledge of the internal Somali political dynamics.

To answer the question, the ICU is a positive force and it should be celebrated. The Western world needs to re-examine their pessimistic stance of Islam. The ICU represents majority of the clans in Southern Somalia and rules the most important regions in Somalia. The courts represent more than 70% of the Somali population. Those few Somalis who are against the courts and their envious and misleading accusations mean nothing to the peace-loving and progressive Somalis everywhere. The two-faced pundits in this forum are obviously the defeated and exiled privileged men and women who benefited from the corrupt and nepotistic previous regimes. Somalis in the south are determined to not put up with any more corruption and nepotism. The leaders of the ICU or Islamists are new blood to Somali politics. They are all educated in Western and Middle Eastern Universities. They are capable to lead the country to peace and security. Thus, it is very important for the International community to deal with those who are for good governance and for the societal development. The TFG is illegitimate government of warlords for the warlords by an Ethiopian dictator. They have no support and backing in Somalia. The people of Puntland and Somaliland are under the oppressive corrupt and inept administrations of the remnants of Barre and other clannish individuals who care more about personal enrichment. Mogadishu is Somalia and Somalia is Mogadishu and those who can pacify it are the ones who could get Somalia out of its misery. So far the ICU are proving to be the real force for positive change and solution.

My only concerns and the advise to the Government in Mogadishu( The UIC) and interior directory is they must establish a committee to look into the risks of the dissemination and contamination of HIV/AIDS from puntland and from war criminals now residing in kenyan refugee camps who might plot to destroy the people's revolution from the inside

allowing snakes like these, especially ones like Ummal with fake turbans to re-entering the somali Islamic lands is dangerous, but thank god there is law and order!

I was there in the House of Commons when the Somaliland Election Report was launched by Dr Steve Kibble of Progresso (CIIR), who is the advocacy coordinator for Africa and Yemmen. Also among us were the leader of the opposition party, Ahmed Siilanyo, MPs and UK parliamentarians (Tony Baldry and Alun Michael) who have shown a long-term commitment to the government and people of Somaliland. This month The President of Somaliland, H.E. Dahir Rayale Kahin, visited the UK as a guest of the British government and had talks with the Minister for Africa, Lord Triesman who said in a Joint Statement and I quote "I had an excellent meeting with H. E. Dahir Rayale Kahin this morning. The United Kingdom has good relations with the Somaliland authorities, who have achieved stability and established democratic institutions in a troubled region. We want to work with them to consolidate those achievements and assist in Somaliland's development."

who is this clown Hirad making southern somalis into " . 5"?

what happened to sticking to xaartiland?

Kulmiye, dear brother inshallah the UIC-Garre are coming to LIBERATE Gedo to give Garres, Degodiya, Digil their courts

......
Justice may come late, but, sooner or later, it will definitely come. Even if it is covered, injustice will surface. And those who practice will pay the price, as seen in the past. Today, the emergence of the Islamic Courts and their victory over the infamous warlords is an indication that the Almighty is always there to punish those who oppress the weaker section of the society.

In its Press Release dated August 23, 2006, the Banadiri Salvation Council welcomed the statement from the Council of Islamic Council which repudiated and nullified the discriminatory formula of 4.5. Also the Benadir Community in the United States called, in a statement released on 24 August 2006, upon the top leaders of the Transitional Federal Institutions to give the Benadir People their right.

The country is for all. Its reconstruction is the duty of all. The country and the people of Somalia have experienced tremendous problems created by injustice. If the cause of the past problems to be continued, what would be the future of the country? Those who practice injustice will definitely suffer from their own deeds.

As the proverb says: "The right is might" and not "The might is right". In the end let us remember that justice always prevails.

Markacadeey Editorial

http://www.markacadeey.com/maqaalo/editorial_20060828e.htm

I would like to say few words to Mr. Mohammed who commented about Somaliland and its dispute with Puntland on a Somaliland teritory on the basis of ethnicity.
If you don't know , Somaliland consists of what used to be British protectorate of Somaliland. You can check that easily . You correctly said some people are rejecting Hargeysas' authority .Well, is it not true that there is a large part of the population in those regions who want to be part of Somaliland? Why you want to take their rights away from them? Or those who are rejecting have more rights than the others? Besides that ,if every country or teritory claims some regions of another country because the majority of that region is of their ethnic people, then the whole world will be on one anothers' throat.The OVERWHELMING majority of Somalilanders' desire should be respected.
And because there are some dissenters in some regions does not mean it is not part of our country.How do you expect this tribal worlord A/Y to rule the Hawiyas and other tribes if that is the case?

Ha! Ha! Ha! Well done, Kulmiye. There you go. Now we are going to have another coalition--organized around the 4.5 or a similar clan based formula--Islamist fashion. So much for Islam as per the courts. Thanks for the information. Surely, a coalition good enough to negotiate with the TFG, and join them!

After so many years of aimlessness, lies and hypocrisy it seems that the rising Elephant in South has shown the real rootcause for the demise of Somalia open and front centre: darod.

Every single subclan and tribe in Somalia today has joined the UIC

There is Islamic court of Dir-South
Islamic Court of Digil and Mirfle
Islamic Court of the Hawiye
Islamic Court of the Banadiri-Arab
Islamic Court of the Somali Bantu(polytechnic)
Islamic Court of Gare etc.. so why are the darod the ONLY one who are not willing to join the rest of somalia and abide by Islamic government and work for unity?

I resent that the last discussant (from Manchester) calls me Abdul, which is not my name, if that question is addressed to me. In any case, I will try and throw in my two-cent worth of contribution here. Local/regional politicalinitiatives are always good,specially given the Somali situation,and provided that they are launched within an atmosphere of freedom and are in synch with the hopes and aspirations of all Somalis, as stake holders in all national issues. Of course, Somaliland is only one of the sub-entities of Somalia, and therefore, also, a stake holder--collectively viewed. I am sure Professor Lewis and Bashir Goth will dissagree with that assertion of mine--shared by a majority of the Somalis. Any way, whether Somaliland, Puntland or Mogadishu the Islamists--all should repond to the national need for peace, reconciliation and unity. Pending that moment of restored unity, we shall pray that each part of the nation remains peaceful and stable. Are the Islamists making that happen in Mogadishu, now, after a long time? No denying that this is so, and that makes Mogadishu one more peaceful place, like Somaliland and Puntland. I am sure that brings us closer to the moment of truth, the moment for resotred unity and renewed statehood-- to include, that is, also Somaliland. Let's hope it comes sooner than later.

I am Somalilander currently living in Khartoum,Sudan illegally immigirating into Med.sea by risking my life there ,its due to lack of basic needs caused by the sactions imposed by the free world, its shame !, in my beloved country which costed the life my father, I left it cos there is no life in Somaliland ,peace is not just the absence of armed conflict ,there must be available all neccesary things ,

I wonder how a man or a woman who escaped his/her so-called home country for whatever reason that he/she wished the Western Authorities to believe so that he/she might gain refugee status, and thanks to God Almighty, when given what he/she wanted, forgets the fact that his/her sisters and brothers who are still in that so-called home country are still victims of warlordism and Islamic fundamentalism (i.e Wahabism, Salfism, Ittihadism and so on). How dare those of you who escaped when things fall apart, tell those poor victimized brethren that things are or seem to be on the right track since ICU took the control. Isn't ICU leaders, those crooks who gave the order to kill anybody who is found guilty of watching TV? And for what? For watching pornography? No! for watching World Cup Tournament. What relation does someone, who by his/her order an innocent blood is pilled, has with Islam? Tell me! How many of you have given allegiance to the ICU in this regard and stopped enjoying TV. How many of you have decided to show their solidarity with those victimized brethren who are prohibited from behaving like human beings? How could you be so senseless and so opportunists to refuse others to enjoy what you like to enjoy and you know you like to enjoy and you consider it to be your right to enjoy? How could you tell those people that ICU is different from the warlords? What is the thing that you want us to abhor in the behaviors of the defeated warlords and to love in the behaviors of ICU if not simply because the ICU added the word "Islam" in their title? At least the warlords killed and looted for self-love and leadership purposes, not for senseless purposes such as watching TV. Nor was it in the warlords's constitution to amputate hands for stealing to live.

In my point of view UIC(united islamic courts)are the ones to rebuild the nation,i think they will cover all the country and they will cover also all east africa.

To Abddalla Hirad

What happen to all the propaganda and the lies your spewing on websites against the truth, well it just didn't cut with the cold hard facts of today, huh?

The UIC since day ONE has been the legitimate undeclared government of the peoples of Southern and Central Somalia and it is none of your concerns. The likes of you now calling even saying a word is shameless! Knowing that your likes were the terrorists and parasites who are killing and pillaging somali people for 21 years and as a matter fact just recently in of your "hate-pieces" wishing to death for the bombing of Mogadishu well if that is not as PATHETIC as the same sort of lowly lies spoon fed to you by abbe siyad... but we all know where that got you in the ended up in 1991 don't we!

Listen, If your co-tribalists are committed to starting a NEW War in Somalia thinking Ethiopian, IGAD or little green men for mars or whatever will fight for you on your little turf villages balanbale, galdogob, north galkcayo or whatever get ready for that WAR and another RUDE AWAKENING!

But rest assure the days of tribe cronyism and abbe siyad trickery are long gone and now institutionally finished in Somalia with the UIC government soon to be declared in short time:

These guys WILL NOT give you snakes the time of the day as aden adde did in 1960s and no new found praise for yours for the UIC-- crocodile tears will change that or save your faction leader political misfortune!

There is NO BASIS for any agreement whatsoever : the UIC is the legitimate government of the people of the South now recognized by the International Community as of the Somali Contact Group meeting 2 days go in Sweden and the remnants of your breed are now and forever as they were inside the country and now internationally PERSONA NON GRATA!

But do not worry if ina yeey has one place to REALLY wants to show his balls to UIC like one poster said PLEASE please GO TO GALKCAYO let us see all the huff and puff eh instead hurting our eyes with these crocodile tears of new found somalinimo and islam !

Dear Abdul from London,

I guest its your time to wonder why people do not respect one when such local solutions are found. You have been laughing at Somaliland for 16 years, and I gues its your turn to witness isolation from the usual suspects.

Thank you

Yes, why can't we let the Mogadishu Islamists "rule Mogadishu", at least for now. But, the question is: whether they want to also rule other parts of Somalia, on their own? If they do, then they have to take over the power in those other areas,too, which may not be so easy, after all. They should also realize that they are not the only form of social or political authority in the country. Even the warlords have realized that, by now. But if they don't or can't--take over power in the entire country, that is--they must soon make sure that Mogadishu be returned to the nation as its capital, very soon. And the only way to do that is to share power. They should also ensure that the southern community of lower shabelle and elsewhere be freed from their captivity--I should not fail to say. It shall be to their credit if they can avoid taking after the foot steps of the warlords in keeping Mogadishu inaccessible for long to other Somalis from elsehwre. In the meantime, let's pray that we all find a meaningful agreement reached between them and the fledgling TFG, one morning next week--perhaps to our surprise.

There are important questions asked here but there are no good answers mostly.As far as the UIC is concerned, who brought them to power in the first place?Is it not the people of Mogadishu?It is their duty to decide how they will be governed whether by Islamic sharia or otherwise and the same applies to any body who invites them into their teritory.
As for the Somaliland case,it is a done deal and your opinions are heard but they are not important.What is important is what we and only we Somalilanders decided whether you like it or not.We said it loudly so those who has ears can hear and we showed our will clearly so those who has eyes can see it.There is an arab saying which says those who intrude in something which do not concern them meet undesiarable results.While your house is on fire and your family is inside,you cannot go and rescue others.
Long Live Somaliland and hats off to the its courageous people.I Did not forget the freinds of Somaliland where ever they are.Please keep up your support we need it and don't mind those who hate you for this.As was the case before and is now there are only few people who fought for a just cause. The fire of a just cause never
never dies.

If you live in a stable country where you calimed assylum, please don't forget that the people in Somalia/Somaliland will hardly comprehend what this whole discussion is about. Many people who were not from the South, i.e. Somlialnd and Puntland, used to boast and sell the relative stability and peace they enjoyed. Unfortunately, now they have nothing to sell, everywhere is peaceful..., So they tell us that the ICU are simply a bunch of Hawiyas, well we don't let Hawiyas to rule Bosaso or Hargeysa, why can't we let them rule Mogadishu?

There is no question that Islamic courts in Somalia are peace makers and they achieved to restore low and order in south Somalia, also they are engaged to re build public service in the capital for the first time since collapse of Siyad Barre regime and that is why we are supporting, About the Taliban style, we don't see Taliban style so far.

Mr Goth and other prominent figures who supporting the seccession of Somaliland, because of the stability, democracy and power sharing and so and so, needs to look back the history of Somaliland and how the power sharing system is based upon.

Take and example all the position of DC are controlled by certain tribes, the independent branches withing the government which is nominated by the president for those who are heading are control by certain tribes.

If this is a dimocracy and tarnsparant you are dreamin about, i will say it is not the one should replace the new government of Somalia.

Why power sharing could not be done in Somalia?

Because of the fiar of the change and weither the peace could be restore again if a change be done plays a big role certain tribe to speak out.

I would change whole nation needs new debate of how can we open new chapter, how Somalia as a whole be democratice, can a tranparent, fair and free system from unreasonable decisions be able restore one day in Somalia.

Last i woud say, Somalia nor Somaliland is undebatedable, wishes and values of the Somali people are only now by us.

The idea behind the creation of the TFG was to create a Government by the Warlords and for the Warlords. Somalia's warlords, some of whom never ever held an office, were given portfolios ranging from Minister of Finanace to Minister of Melitias, the biggest and most ruthless warlord was chosen as the President.

Being thugs, the new warlord-cum-ministers never managed to get along and fought within one another, although they belonged to the same "paper" government.

The story was like that until the ICU joined the picture. The ICU quickly defeated most of the warlords and some perminently taken them out of the Somali political picture.

Now what is left of the Warlord Government is holed up in remote villages and towns.

We urge the US and other credible international actors to not get their hands burnt like they did when they supported the Warlords and even funded them, but were eventually defeated. The Somali people want the international community to not side with one particular faction but to try and act as mediatory for dialogue. And we want the International community to put pressure on the Meles Zenawi government of Ethiopia to stop interfering in internal Somali matters.

Truth always wins, lies eventually crumble. The TFG will crumble.

Undoubtedly the UIC are restoring hope, business and peace without any physical outside support in a country which, world vast superpower, United Nations and its own politicians failed to do just that. But the Somali government, its coconspirator or most of the warlords and foreign government such as Ethiopia and Uganda are determine to make the efforts of the UIC to fail. Furthermore, the western nations have the notion that the UIC are there to challenge the Western foreign policy or their allies say Ethiopia.

What mostly surprises me is the fact that the Somali government and its foreign allies mainly Ethiopia are waging war against people who has only solved their problems and UIC are no means threat to any one. The Ethiopian and forces has ignored international border protection and their forces are in Somalia in different places.

Hadal badan danba dhanta.

Hadii aydaan isyeelyeelaynin,hadii xaalada maanta ka taagan Somlia(ex koonfur) sidaa ku siisocoto, kala qaybsanaanta waa Maxaakita iyo TNG da oo sida runta ah laba beelood kala taageersanyihiin, rajo lagma qabo in mustaqbalka dhow meeshaa wax ka hagaagaan, waxaynu arkayna niman wadaado ah oo doonya in shareecada wax lagu xukumo si fiicana u qabsaday Caasimadii iyo qaybo ka mid ah Somlia, iyo dawlad ku sheeg aad u itaal daran sasna ka qabta ku dhaqanka diinta kuna dhisan taageero ciidamo ajnabi, waa kaaf iyo kala dheeri,hadii aan Ilaahay faraj kale u furin way iska cadahay in meeshaa aye ka soo socoto dagaal faraha laga gubto oo bubur iyo baro kac hor leh gaystaa.
berigii Jabuti lagu shiraayaa waxay somalidu odhan jirtay hadii berigii Jabuti ina soo raacdo maanta maynaan heleen cid gogol inoo fidisa, ma garanaayo waxay kuwaasi maanta Somaliland ula jeclaysanayaan in qalalasaaha lala soo galo,waxa wanaagsan ee Somaliland u qabsoomay wa guul u soo hoyatay dadka magaca Somaliyeed sheegta. Somaliland waxay ka hirgalay nidaam doorasho oo aan ahayn ka Somalia ee 4.5 ee cadaalada ka fog oo qof kasta oo muwaadin ah o wax islahaya u ogol inuu isu soo sharaxo jagada uu doono ama ha helo ama ha waayo, reer Somaliland waxaa u suurto gashay in beelo dawladii hore colaysiisay in saxxiibtinimo xoog lihi dhexmarto danaha dalkodana ka wada shaqeeyaan.ma lihi boqolkiba boql wax waliba way hagaagen laakin waxaan huba in aan jidki hagagsana ku joogno.way jirta in dad ka soo jeeda gobolda bari in aanay jeclayn goono isu taag Somaliland sababo la xidhiidda qabyaalada awgeed laakin taasi caalamka meelo badan ay ka jirta tusaalo ahaan Monenegro aftidii ugu dambaysay boqolkiiba in ka badab Afartan ayaa ka soo horjeeday gooni isu taaga markaa muranka caynkaasi wax micnoleh samayn maayo bacdamaa aqlabiyadu rabto Somaliland.waxaan hadalkaygii ku soo gunaanadayada labada qolba UIC da iyo TNG da faraha naga qaada ,qolda UIC waxaan leeyahay diinta islaamka waa taayadii annaga ayaa ka jecel waanan ku dhaqmi jirnay waanan ku dhaqmayna illa qiyaamaha ee ha igu beerlaxowsan, qolada TNG da waxaan leeyaha nidaam dawladeed oo la idin ku soo hirto ma haysaan ee meesha ku kala yaaca oo fursad siiya dadka daacda.
Somaliland safka hore ku biirtoo socotay soo noqonmayso
Hayaan

The only hope for the people of Somalia , if the the Imbagathi made so called and the ICU agree on holding free election , so the people of Somalia can elect thier own govt. and Parliament like Somaliland, other than talk is cheap, and for those of you who supportee the so called TFG/ICU should work hard on that if you're sincere about the wellbeing of the people of Somalia. The solution for Somalia is how to convince the TFG/ICU to hold a democratic election. after all the so called TFG didn't come by people's choice , but by the will of the Warlords of Somalia, while at least the ICU OUSTED THE Warlods , who were behind the election of the Warlord president, A/Yusuf, a clan oriented who enjoys attention and has Add syndrome.

Some have argued that until the underline issue of politics of clanisism and tribalism that has dominate every facet of Somalia's social landscape and political instituitions and offcoourse the prime instigator of Somalia's demise is dealt with honesty and acccordingly, peace in Somalia will be a fleeting elusion, aspired by many but hardly attainable by any means.

Sady Rashido

It seems that those most fervently writing and actively trying to bring hostile actions against UIC under talibam whether they are the clan supporters of Majertina or Goth are all from the same people who do not even claim to be part of Somalia, what gives? Really, Is seeing Peace and Prosperity in Mogadishu your nightmares come true
This is really astonishing, I never knew there was so much hate!

I have just returned from Mogadishu and I can say 100 % people there are happy with the new changes brought by UIC. Their future looks bright, money is coming and they could care less for Somaliland, Puntland or all this rubbish going on this site. So please guys don't delude yourselves into thinking every Mogadishu resident talks about you, why would they really care, is somaliland part of south's problem? anyway the mission is greater than all these petty things, we want to prosper and build our home! No one really cares if Somaliland exists or becomes independent or become part of Ethiopia or the sea in the south so Bashir you should get your facts straight before insulting and calling people taliban. If they do not talk about you, why are you talking about them, even though you say you do not care about the South?

The priorities of the UIC and the people of Mogadishu and the whole South is not a threat to anyway, it is for peace and many people from Somaliland tribes are taking advantage of this god-sent opportunity to maximize reconstruction with their brothers in Mogadishu, for infrastructure, schools, bridges and hospitals and of creating stability in our country which will help the socio-economic status of all the clans and tribesmen. We have all suffered under the dictatorial regime of Mohamed said bare, so let us quit whining,

If Somaliland wants to be part of the positive developments for the Somali people in the South, let them join, if they don't want too that is fine, but insults and sheer lies won't do a damn thing for you or taking away our peace!

Imagine when the UN went to Somalia early 1990s, they spent billions billions to clean Mogadishu, restore basic security and reconstruction but most of the money went to corruption. Then ICU came to power in Mogadishu, they spent less than hundred thousand dollars to clean the city, reopen the airport and port. Furthermore ICU has restored the security, order and chased out the warlords.

Imagine when Ethiopia used to supply its weapons to many warlords in Somalia, and all of them were chased except one left TFG. Then Ethiopia took one step back fearing and wondering who are the ICU?

I think the record of ICU speaks itself and history will tell the rest of it whether they are positive force for peace. I think none of these panels been to Mogadishu lately, so I would have love to see someone like Prof. Abdi Samatar.

It is interesting but not surprising. The topic of discussion is and was, I believe, the IUC and whether its a force for peace. Strangely enough many contributors are angrily discussing Somaliland instead. This reminded of a story/joke told to me by an acquintance. He said that a gangster in Mogadishu was in the process of robbing a defenseless elderly lady. A young man walked by, as the gangster beat the elderly woman with his ak47 and shouted "Somaliland attained international recognition". All of a sudden the gangster stopped and looked towards the young man; while at the same time, the elderly lady seemed painless and looked. They both then shouted at the young man, at once, NO..can't be..Somaliland cannot be recognized.

The moral of the story is that the people of Somalia (south Somalia) despite their problems and chaos in Somalia seem to have one thing in common: enmity for Somaliland; and focus so much of their attention on Somaliland. The fifteen or so peace conference that were held outside Somalia to reconcile the warring factions in Somalia all failed because instead of bringing peace to Somalia and working on their problems, they all opened with the proclamation that the unity of Somalia is sacred and Somaliland cannot secede. That is why the current TFG and the embaghati gathering deliberately and rightly ignored Somaliland and focused on Somalia. I suggest that the contributors on here save their energy for Somalia and forget about Somaliland.

The saying that the only thing that the people of Somalia (South Somalia) with their countless warlords can agree on is that Somaliland cannot secede seems to be true.

Dear to ALL,

Nobody has answered me yet, but I would like to ask the "Tribal Federalists" how they wish to force this method of governence upon those who do not wish so?

I see all those bashing the ICU as bashing HAWIYE. Its wrong to take sides in this Somali conflict.

To whom it may concern,

I believe the islamic court are the positive force then previous cold bloody war lords. Islamic courts cleaned up the southern somalia. Lets thank the Islamic court their well job done and lets give them chances to continue the remaining job well done.

be informed the book, Islamic court fo dummies coming up very soon!

Abdi Dayur
SNM Member

It seems we should respect the will of the somali people and they have spoken against these tfg warlords and ethiopian invasion. Democracy is letting people live they want want to if the somalia people want the UIC government, who dares today after 15 years of anarchy and chaos tell them who is and is not terrorists?

It seems that Somalis are engaged here their usual tribal diatribe arguments at the coffee shops or khat chewing gatherings.
Very few are tackling the topic at hand objectively.
I am very Somaliland, at the same time I applaud and commend the UIC by throwing thugs and ruthless warlords had hostage for the Somalis in the Southern Regions of Somalia for fifteen years.
No matter how the west in general and US in particular sees it, the Union of Islamic Courts freed the capital and its people without firing a shot. That has to to be commended.
I do believe the UIC will free all Somalia if they are given the chance and time.
Though relatively their was peace and stability in both Somaliland and Puntland, the goverments there are currupt and are lead by some people who have questionable pass.
IF UIC not hijacked by the few ex- military official as Hassan Daahir Aweys, the potential to establish transparent accountable govermnt is there.
My question to the panelists is are we falling into the trap of the West by calling everyone terrorist and Teliban? Without labeling and calling names can we give the UIC chance?
Is not what TFG doing by letting Eithopian military fight in Somalia worse than closing few movie theatres?

I sincerely hope that the United States government begins to prosecute the countless henchmen of Barre's who actively bombed towns, killed hundreds of thousands of innocent somalis for 21 years, that would be the best way to gain some credibility with the local people in Mogadishu. As for the UIC, they are the only legitimate force that can bring this war torn nation back from the dustbin and into some sanity. War lords like Abdllah Yusuf are irrelevant to Mogadishu and Somalia's destiny, as for the local warlords propped up by the Ethiopians, they are finished. thank you UIC

President Bush said 'Good prevails than evil'.Israel is the only democratic country in the Mid East and defeated 300m disorganized Arabs. So Somaliland is the sole demogratic nation in the Horn of Africa,will give proper lesson anyone who trys to violate her sovereignty. Long life democracy.

the somalia i grew up in mid 80'ies never had islamist and they were overwhelmingly secular,they never had reliogion imposed on them by force,yet idon't understand how they would sit behind a bearded man to get the blessing of god when he(bearded)himself is blessing you,proscuting you,convicting you,and exacuting you before you get a chance to meet your god in hell or heaven, are you not paying twice for the so called crime?can't we say the shiekh is claiming to be god since he is doing what god suppose to do?

i think they are worse than talliban but somali calture wouldn't tollarate,they just added a new conflict on the board

does anyone here thinks, given the current state of collective mind, some of which is expressed here, that Somali state will ever come back ?

As an Ethiopian who has witinessed ONLF terrorists crimes against unarmed civillians in my country's east, it came as as a real surprise that my friends in somalia have equally told me that the Hawiye peoples of Southern Somalia which form the backbone of this movement have also been victims of these terrorists back when they were nourished under Barre's rule in 1980s, so why does not the ICU/Hawiyes in Somalia work with Ethiopia against these ONLF darood terrorists?

Dear Panellists,

How does the world wish to force those whom have no involvement with "Tribal Federal Government"?

Many people are unfairly accusing the professor I M Lewis, but I must remind you that he is indifferent to western countries who give their support to A/Yusuf and his self styled Tribal Federal Government (TFG).

As the world has decided to support "Tribal Federalism" and hence produced the current transitional government led by A/Yusuf from Daarood Northland aka puntland and A Gedi from Muqdisho both from former Italian Somalia colony.

The former "Somalia" had three major tribes - Isaaq, Hawiye, and Daarood. Here are three main tribes interests:
Isaaq - bringing back the sovereignty of British Protectorate of Somaliland, and sees Somalia as a colonialist or expansionist
Hawiye - well, it's the tribe behind the "Islamic Courts" if only they practices what they claim. They delude themselves into ruling all Somalis just like the fallen past regime and would prefer another central government which will develop only their southern areas.
Daarood - are the main supporters of tribal federalism taking Ethiopia's ethnic federalism as an example to follow. They hope to gain more from government coffers with this method since their regions are unproductive and of no commercial significance.

Thank you for reading.

What is the next step Somaliland can take if international community keeps ignoring? One think I know, SomaliLander's are determent and wouldn't turn their decision to the tyranny, killing, slaughtering and bombardment with their own airplanes and all the different kind of military ammunitions which was used to them........in 1988 to 1991.

In that regard did the World eyes only sees the bad thinks(CUI/TFG/Warlords) or helping those who already helping themselves and want nor willing to be part of the better world for the sake of their coming generation and beyond...........!?

Dear Moalin
I am at lost what you mean by being like a visa card. mind if you say what you mean by that?
if it is anything to do with money, I sure would like to be like visa card.

Omar Jamal, Sir, you have the right to express your views freely. But some of us are wondering why you have become like a VISA CARD.."It is every where you want to be".

point of worthy of note here is that nobody can dispute the fact that ICU brought back some degree of order by opening the seaport and the airport; however, what Samatar is obvisiouly missing here aside from Americans, is that this country has been in this shape for the last 16 years and for him to suggest that ICU can quicly fix this is another political missteps that we have already seen in the past. what Samatar seems to propose here is that the ICU and U.S has the exact the same agenda in Somalia, therefore U.S should jump in bed with the ICU. so what the fuss is all about here ! ICU is U.S and U.S is ICU !
well, in that case there is also terrorism suspects here in the U.S, so again what the hell is this all about ?

Dear Mr. Goth & Dr/Prof. Warsame,

Apart from the alleged presence of the handful of suspected terrorists in Mogadishu (there are hundreds of suspected terrorists or known Al Qaeda sympathizers in the UK and France alone, the Western Intel folks and "Terrorism Analysts" tell us), can you specifically pinpoint to the American people exactly where and how the ICU's conduct, policies and stated political positions thus far collide with America's REAL short and long term national interests?

Why should the American people's blood and wealth be taken advantage of by alarmists of both Somali origin and others who desire to drag America into the Somali conflict on the false pretext of expending the War on Terror into Somalia or, worse, to save the visionless Abdullahi Yusuf?
Given the repeated failures of Abdillahi Yusuf's government and the hopeless Biodoba crowd to deliver even one percent of what the ICU achieved for the Somali people (pacifying the notorious Mogadishu & the grand opening of the Airport and Seaport, to name a few), is it fair to expect from the ICU to clean up the effect of the 15 years long mess in an overnight?

To the aspiring Somali Ahmed Chalabis:
American people shall not be fooled twice. The real Ahmed Chalabi did it once and that was it! Mind you look for other viable sources of income!

Dear my fellow citizens

Hadaan hadlana waa afsalax ku dhag, hadii aan amusana sida la iga deyn mahayo.

Dear Noah:
You asked if Somaliland is a democratic country. My answer would be, it depends on who is judging.
To the Somalilanders who believe in secession, Somaliland is moderately democratic. I use the word moderate, because those who are not in UDUB, the ruling party, complain of draconian decisions by the President and his government. But when faced by federalists, those Somalilanders would proclaim the democratic nature of the Somaliland government. Elections (local, parliamentary and presidency) were carried out in many parts of the country. However, there were many parts of the country that the Somaliland government could not hold elections since its rule does not reach them. These are mostly the regions of Sool, Eastern Sanag, and some parts of Togdher. These are the regions were Somaliand claims to be part of its "country", but that are practically administered from Puntland. Federalist Somalilanders" believe that to build a legitimate democracy, all citizens must have the same rights. Federalists in Somaliland are not allowed to open a Political Party of their own to run for offices; and until that happens, Somaliland can not be morally considered to be a democracy.

Regards,
Hussein Warsame

Islam is a religion of Peace and If one follows it the right way it is an everlasting harmony for the humans but what Kind of Islam these Union Courts follow?are they trying to kill in the Name Of religion or are they really peace loving people the answers to these question will come forth as time goes on, another question that rests in my mind is who is the real boss of these unions????what is the position of the Shariif as to his degree of Islamic knowledge! so far we see that the invisible guy behind them is mr Dahir aweys, who is gonna negotiate with the TFG and on what terms? forget about this somaliland thing the Isaqs can go to hell if they want we care less as long as they don't bring an ex british colony map,there is nothing called ex protectrate there are clans there and each clan wants to go with what suits them.

Seems like OJ had hijacked the fine discussions of this panel. First of all, clear your name with DHS. The Ethiopian occupation in Somalia will not sit will with any self-respecting Somali. Besides the so called Somali Govt is something that was concocted by the Ethiopian Govt with their ulterior design of trying to have a puppet Govt. Ina yey doesnt represent Somalia.

God Bless the UIC! I'm going back to MOGADISHU!!!

Somalia has JUST been wayward far too long, we need the UIC a real national leadership that will not only talk the talk, but more importantly WALK THE WALK. today the UIC have opened all the territory in the south and I was reading they to intend to establish committees to enhance local somali agircultural producers and tomorrow WFP ship will dock at Port of Mogadishu!

The announcement by the EU, Sweden, US and UN for the creation of a legitimate national government is flawed, because there is already the legitimate government of UIC helping to save my people!

Dear Hussein Warsame

point well taken...put your money where your mouth is.

Dear Noah

it is SNM style of democracy. The British colony back then signed decuments with each and every clan entity that resided in that part of the country and that is why it is called British protectorate: meaning to protect each and every clan under its illegal jurisdiction. so now what we have here is ISAQ style of Democracy which I do not mind.

When nations like Somalia who are under such turmoil and chaos politically and socially, it is no wonder the people would turn to religious leadership to guide their way. Even though in the west and most parts of the world separation of church and state is common; this change will definitely bring stability for the time being to Somalia.

However, my question is if the people of Somalia chose at a later point that the demands from the Islamic Courts Union (ICU) are not feasible or the rules and regulations are not fit, who will have the right or decision to change that?

The Islamic Courts need to be engaged not isolated. It is a major force that cannot be sidestepped. The United States and the West must not assume the UIC as a monolithic group. There are various actors and political interests vying for power. Apparently, the USA has not learned from prior debacles becasue it is making "terrorism" as the defining factor in the formulation of its foreign policy toward islamic groups. Somalis care less about three Al-Qaeda terrorists hiding in the country when peace and stability are at stake. Washington knows that Somalis do not support Al-Qaeda or exhibit an anti American sentiment. I do not think that Somalis hold grudges against the Americans for the latter's ill-advised financing of Mogadishu's former warlords (the so-called alliance against terrrorism). It is time that Washington waste no time on a toothless group like the TFG and start engaging with the UIC. There are extremist figures in that union but there are also moderates that need to be supported.

Dear Omer Jamal:
There is no ambiquity in the international community's decision to consider the TFG as the legal government of Somalia. But, the Contact Group has to be pragmatic and recognize, as they say, the realities on the ground: that the ICU controls much more land than the TFG and has more credibility. As a person trained in administration and economics, I can appreciate where the Contact Group is coming from. You have to have value for your money.

Regards,
Hussein Warsame

is somaliland a democrotic country?
can anyone express his or her opinion in HARGEISA about the indepency of somaliland?

I think Our Problem Somalis is that our affairs are being run by people other than us, look at Mr lewis, do you really think he is not with no Side in this somali affairs?no he is pro somaliland which is an ex colony of the british, and bashir goth!is he muslim?becuase definitely we somalis we are muslims and we love our religion the unfortunate thing is we didn't understood islam well,just like courts who are trying to force the rest, I'm hailing from an area with peace as long as foriegners don't mess up we are ok, who are lewis and Goth to answer our questions?????strange indeed,i'm not asking question but i'm commenting on the reality in somalia, we need that the courts don't become another USC with islamic disguise and we want the TNG to resolve any problem with them so our people can have some peace

Dear Hussein Warsame

allow me to revisit the two parties first agreement. is it still legal decuments or they will both start from zero? if it is still binding decuments, it was clearly stated that the TFG is the sole legitimate authority in the country, and therefore wonder what does that entail ?

To Mohamed Boh

I agree that the UIC have done what their people have wanted and no one can take that from that.

to Hersi Yonis

The ONLF Ogaden terrorists are in league with their co- daroods in somalia under Abdullahi Yusuf militias trying to act against the UIC and currently are stationed in the balanbale, baidao and north puntland districts again sowing the seeds for their destruction like 1991!

Omar Jamal
you are a criminal and illegal alien who IS a liar and should be deported ASAP by the State Department, really this is a shame on all of us that the US Homeland security has not taken any steps to address this appalling fiasco, your presence itself signals that terrorists can still strike us after 9/11 where is the law and order politics of Senator Coleman?

Dear Omer Jamal and other contributors:
It is true that serious allegations of terrorism were launched against people believed to be harbored by members of the ICU. But these are exactly that: allegations. The international community has two choices: shut out the Islamists and try to get those alledged terrorists by force; or co-opt the Islamists and deny those terrists a home-base. The TFG also has to deal with even more unpleasant choices: remain what you are are (weak) and try to seek mediocre support from international actors, or recongize the ICU impact and share power. I believe that they do not have much of a choice but to co-opt the ICU. As we read, in their lastest meeting, the International Contact Group for Somalia, demanded a shared government before holding a supposedly massive fund raising for Somalia in Rome before the end of the year. That is a thinly disguised recognition for the ICUs.

Regards, Hussein Warsame

Over the last several years, piracy has become increasingly prevalent off of Somalia's coast (both in Somalia's territorial waters and on the high seas). In the last few weeks, I have seen several articles arguing that the UIC will wipe out piracy by capturing pirates and trying them in the courts. I was wondering, how likely do you think this scenario is?

Dear Hussein Warsame
Thank for your comments; however, what we have here is a serious allegation of terrorism activities: East Afrcian Embassies bombing, U.S ship blown up with the causalties of 18 U.S marines, and an attempt to shoot down an Israel commercial airline in Bombasa all of which suspects disappeared into Somalia according to the wide spread media speculatin. so in considering all these allegations,and furthermore one of the leaders of the ICU bieng on the top of the most wanted list of State Deparment, what would you say to this? should we ignore all of that and act as if business is as usual ?

Bashir - it appears like you're forcefully backing your negative ideologies of how you view the group that's currently in power in Mogadishu and have grave concerns on their ability to govern Somalia fairly if allowed to stay in power. Is there something that you have seen while you visited there or it's just you don't believe their plan to create an Islamic State will never be fruitful, thus bringing the country in to peace? I'm really interested in what you two have to say in terms of what's good for Somalia now - ICU is out of the question and don't see anyone suggesting the TGF either - the fact is a devil you know is far better than one you don't know - at least we must know one of them and give them the chance to govern, right????

The UIC have made known their desire to revive Somali irredentism in the Ogaden. To what extent do the rebellion groups of ONLF and OLF and the issue of ownership of Ogaden region play into the Somali conflict?

My observation is that

Since the fall of the despicable Barre dictatorship in 1991 people in southern and central Somalia, including the capital Mogadishu have lacked peace and government, but today for the first time they have regain all of that: government of their choosing dedicated to upholding security, law and order.

Looking back at the history of this failed state wracked by endless decades of dictatorship, tribalism, state-sanctioned genocide, and underdevelopment this is in itself a phenomenal achievement that we see in Mogadishu! The UIC authorities deserve our praise and support, if only for doing what NO ONE other than the Somalis could have brought about: pacifying their country from warlordism. Something that neither the 20, 000 US marines or the massive UNISOM-UNITAF forces which were deployed in that country from 1992-1995 could not even accomplished a fraction of what has taken place.

To the so called Ethiopians, IGAD and the warlord Abdullahi Yusuf and others who somehow think it in their political interests to seek to rekindle war in peaceful Somalia against UIC: know clearly that once this war begins this time there will be no immunity and you will be responsible for all the consequences.

If the abdullahi yusuf wants to bring war to UIC he should look no further than his clan base the current battlefield Galkcayo!

The International Somali Contact Group is absolutely correct in seeking to establish an independent government for Somalia and until then withholding any support to any of the warring factions. A step that can only end Ethiopian invasion and lay the ground for such a government that will serve the general welfare for the Somalis and that is free from this so called tfg warlords.

Good work UIC!

The effect of infiltration and meddling of Ethiopian Govt had on southern Somalia and the lack thereof in so called 'somaliland' had facilitated the northern part of Somalia to achieve a semblance peace and Melesa Govt had perpetuated the sufferings and killings in southern part of the nation until he got a puppet govt in the likes of A Ghedi & A Yusuf. Would you comment on this and what might become the future of East Africa in regards to Ethiopian grandstanding.

We are well informed about what is going on southern somalia.The ICUs came in power accidently,but fortunately they succeeded to restore stabily in Banaadir and its suberbs.By the way, many intellectuals believe that this system is nol long-lasting.
so my question is:
Can you contribute a better sabstitute? or do you think that handing over the power to a more brutal and tyranic colonel Abdilahi Yousuf will lead to a broad peace and prosperity for the southern Somalia?

Dear Ubah and Omar Jamal:
Sorry for being late. My inputs did come through. Better late than never.
There is a possibility that the expected meeting between the ICU and the TFG will succeed after all. Each group has tried to defeat the other one way or another so that it is recognized as the sole power in Southern Somalia. Neither succeeded. They must have learned the limitations of Zero-Sum games in the hard way.
The ICU is apparently more popular than the TFG; but it does not have the recognition of the international community, which distrusts it. Since Somalia does not exist in a vacuum, it would be suicidal to assume that the ICU could succeed without international cooperation. The TFG may have lately received recognition from the world community, but it humumiliated itself in front of Somalis and the international community with the constant in-fighting of its members and the lack of progress not to mention the cry for Ethiopian help. Therfore, it would be pareto preferred for both groups to come to a compromise agreement. My prediction is that the meeting will take place in Khartoum next week. The big actors (Sh. Sharif, Aweys, and Abdillahi Yusuf) will miss the first few meetings. There will be an intervention from president Bashir. The final agreement will look like this:
1. The parliament will be increased to accommodate Islamists from all the so-called 4.5 clans.
2. The prime minister will be replaced with a less secular accademic.
3. Abdillahi Yusuf will keep his job.
4. The chairman of the parliament will go to the Islamists (Sharif Hassan could run as an Islamist).
5. They will leave Somaliland alone for a while. Then the next crises will be about Somaliland for both the ICU and the TFG consider Somaliland as an integral part of Somalia.

Regards,
Hussein Warsame,

Not suprisingly the hatred and lies being shown here by Bashir Goth ( a serial clanist), Omar Jamal ( a man who has admitted criminally lying to get into the U.S and who should be now behind in prison walls for drug trafficking and money laudering offences in Minesota) for the UIC is nothing short of clannish malice and jealousy. No one on earth takes these men seriously, and most of all, on any matters having to do with somalia.

So what on earth is a reputable news outlet such as Washington post giving a forum for deadbeats, or is this a new amusement for the editorial board to showcase clan warfare at its worst!

Do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. turn over the extremists, so country can back to its business.

The ICU has mounted one of the most successful revolutionary at the capital. They have brought back a degree of order in a city full of turmoil and human suffering. So we will not allow from the international community to destroy this process, except what is left now is to turn over the few radicals (extremists) in the organization (ICU) to the international criminal court in Hague, so we can all go back to our business. So let us not destroy this process with the few bad apples in it

I personally think that the Islamic court are doing pretty good job, the reason being is there are lots of things that has been transformed terms of the country's peace. For example, in Moqudisho there were armed men's that use to killed people and rap there belongs and the country didn't had any law and order what so ever. However since the Islamic court took over all those things had be take care and the people are happy. So I don't see a reason why we shouldn't be supporting the Islamic court. My question is would you people rather have a gun men running around the country shooting pretty much everyone? I don't think that the Islamic courts are doing this to destroy but to help. What is there to destroyed everything has been destroyed sixteen years ago and from the way I see they're trying to restore what has be obliterated

Who cares about Somalia, and if they want to go all barbaric in the name of stability, let them. They'll be the same population screaming for U.S. help to get out from under the oppressive "Islamic regime" 5 years from now. By any measure -- human rights, economic growth, quality of life, Islam + government = failed state. Guaranteed.

what happened in the capital was a public uprising against the the warlords and those who behind them(Ethiopia and kenya).these two countries are paniking now and planning to save desparetely their last warlord Mr abdillahi yussuf. Our country has been sliced into weak and regional goverments.

I'm afraid that the world today sees what is going on in Mogadishu and knows that actions speak louder than words, especially the lies being peddled here! The UIC is a grassroots popular uprising by somalis for somalia that has defeated the ethiopian-backed warlords; that has opened the international airport, which was closed for 16 years, not to mention also openning and rebuilding the international seaport where food aid and commerce are coming every day to the needy people as well as cleanning up the city from all the garbage and diseases in 6 weeks!

Now the question is: what business is it of Somaliland clannists like Bashir Roth parading around as a neutral journalist despite knowing everyone knows his record or for that matter the disgraced Lewis to talk about TODAY taliban or other nonsense which is purely designed to lament the best wishes of Somali people in the South to rebuild their country... or maybe these so called panel members would have liked that Mogadishu should never have come out of from anarchy or regain stability?

How come we don't see Somali nationalists such as Prof. Abdi Samatar on this panel? This is a panel of secessionists and their colonial master. Somalia does not need your help or that of the West. Where were you when the people of Mogadishu were under conditions of slavery during the rule of the warlords? The US was paying their minions to oppress Somalis and all these so-called experts were silent.

Dear Abdi Duqoow

please I think I am entitled to this, so are you. go ahead act like one of the penalists too. see if I do care. or for that matter, we cannot even have a decent discussion here like any other human being let alone fixing the country, and therefore I think sadly so we need a Washington Post peacekeeping force in this discussion too.

Regardless of the out come is it clear that the so called Goverment of Somalia whom somali has elected and was established by the traditional enimies of Somalia (Ethiopia) who have been arming and financing different Somali factions and criminals with help of the greal SATAN America to destroy our nation. No Somali Who believe in god almight will ever agree with the conspircy against somalia and Islam. We the Somali nation r muslims and wish to be rule by the rule of Allah almight the creator and sustainer off heaven and earth. Islam is the way foward and he who refuses can die slow

I wonder why Omar Jamal, a nephew of the warlord that is now TFG boss is acting like he is one of the penalist?

Yassin

ICU considers rightly so Somaliland part of Somalia, and how will the ICU affect democratic country like Somaliland? they will take it over and open Islamic courts there.

What we have in Somalia is a country duped by unremorseful clannish warlords and incompetent clannish leaders who are backed by Ethiopian dictator and who don't understand the concept of good governance. From the day of independence up to now, successive Somali governments where dominated by clannish opportunists whose main focus was to empower their clansmen on the back of others. Clan dominance is what is causing us now to mistrust each other. In 1991, people in Mogadishu and much of the south who felt they were outsmarted by shameless conspirators from Puntland and the MOD gangs were able to overthrew them. The same thing happened in Somaliland. Now both Hargeisa and Mogadishu see the return of these spoilers in the name of warlord Yusuf and in the name of TFG. The ICU represents people in the south and are determined past injustices never to happen. Somalia should be led by democratically and Islamic ally just leadership and so far the ICU promises that.

it is crystal clear that ICU controls most of the southern Somalia;so my question is:how ICU will affect the horn of Africa Including the most democratic country in the horn of Africa (SOMALILAND)?

I think in many ways they are doing rightnow they look like Taliban and must stop.The world must stop now or it takes more blood and more innocent peaple who will takepart in order to close allah (God).we consider our peaple are muslim,and there is no new muslim faith thanks. EGAL

Dear Ubah
I wish that would have been possible.

Omar,

I think that Khartoum will not be success because it is being held outside Somalia, ONCE AGAIN,

Darling, the peace that was lost in translation can be found under the Accacia tree, everytime the Somalis go for peace talks, they seems to lose it in translation, lose it on Foreign lands.

My advice is Somalis should sit down toghether without foreign mediators, without foreign peacekeeper, and reach peace amongs themselves.

The peace is within them, they will never find it, running around foreign lands.

As far as the question about the (UIC) is concerned, The United Islamic Courts (UIC) that rule Mogadishu today is a loosely held coalition of tribal based clerks; they came to power prematurely not on their own terms. Their expeditious victories over the warlords who run Mogadishu for the past 15 years was made possible by a popular upraise. If it wasn't the support of the average residents in Mogadishu and its environs it would have not been possible for the UIC clerks to defeat the warlords and claim victory.

I believe it will be very difficult for those citizens who were fed up with the ruthless warlord to sign off for a rigid system run by extremist in the name of Islam whose priorities are far different from the long term needs of the country. There is an imperative need for Somalia to join the world order, but not through isolation. Somalis are Muslim and practice Islam based on not extremism where trivial matters such as watching a soccer game, wedding ceremonies and throwing a party become a state responsibility.

The question of secession has to be debated. Mr. Goth and Lewis seem to see the debate from one side. Their comments reflect this as such. However, Somaliland claims to be a democracy and yet one is not free to discuss the mere question of those who oppose that ideology. It's astonishing to say the least the root cause of the secession was based on the brutal treatment of the former dictator's regime against the people of North Somalia. Yet the current president of Somaliland was in fact an instrumental part of such a regime. There are many people in Somaliland who are against the secession and those have to be heard. As long as Sool and Sanaag are ignored, Somaliland will not gain the democracy it claims to have.

It is becoming apparent that the inexplicable and illogical support for the ersatz "Somaliland" in the certain quarters is a part of a larger proxy war aimed at disenfranchising the the most homogeneous nation in Africa. IM Lewis and, his side-kick, Goth are but dutiful bit players in this larger struggle. Is it any wonder then that they fail to offer any rational justification for Hargeisa's false claims to Sool, Sanag and Cayn, to say nothing about Awdal?

does anyone think that the scheduled peace talks in Khartoum due to start on friday will be successful, if not why ?

I just wanted to comment regarding Somaliland,..although it is peaceful and stable, I think the "experts" on Somalia do a disservice by misrepresenting the situation in Somaliland. Somaliland is a government that doesn't have any control or influence over large tracts of their claimed territory. Most of the Sanaag (which is the largest province) and Sool regions reject Hargeisa's authorities and have clearly stated their desire to remain as part of Somalia. So wouldn't forcing independence upon these sizable minorities form the casus belli for more wars/insurgencies between Somalia and "Somaliland".

The situation in Somalia is not one that could be understood with few books, articles or films, rather, it is much more complex than that. However, it is important all of us understand the main conlfict. For the past 15 year or so, the Somalian people have been under the rule of warlords who by any means did not understand what it means to be human. They were people who did not care about law and order. So the question is: who is to blame for their wrong doings? Why did the international community (western countries) become so interested in the Somali politics after the warlords were ousted? Some might claim that Somalia has fallen under the hands of extremists, but what is extremists? Is a person who believes in law and order an extremist? From what is apparent is that ICU is made by tribal elders who could no longer put up with warlordism. In the past, all kinds of ideas and "laws" were applied in order to establish unity, however, we've never seen it, ever. From the days of communism to socailism to democracy, we have never seen the Somalia people unite but now it's all different. So should we support Unity or division? War or Peace? These are the questions for "intellectuals" who judge the case in Somalia without full knowledge.

The concept of nation-state was something foreign to the Somali people and prior to its introduction, somali existed in pockets in that region paying allegiance to the Ottam Empire. after the collapse of the State, somali so far failed to bring rule of law back and therefore does anyone think the only way it will come back is that they will be part of Islamic reawakening throughout Muslim world, and again is looking for another group to whom they pay allegiance in the Middle East ?

The question of secession has to be debated. Mr. Goth and Lewis seem to see the debate from one side. Their comments reflect this as such. However, Somaliland claims to be a democracy and yet one is not free to discuss the mere question of those who oppose that ideology. It's astonishing to say the least the root cause of the secession was based on the brutal treatment of the former dictator's regime against the people of North Somalia. Yet the current president of Somaliland was in fact an instrumental part of such a regime. There are many people in Somaliland who are against the secession and those have to be heard. As long as Sool and Sanaag are ignored, Somaliland will not gain the democracy it claims to have.

That is indeed the sixty five dolar question. IT is not really possible to answer this in the short run. They will have to be judged by their results and I am glad that you appoint the Somali people as judged here. I have noticed little if any emphasis on Somali public opinion by the UN or EU or US in assessing the various political currents at play in Somalia. If the Courts could demonstrate that they were prepared to be guided by public opinion and were to introduce credible ways of encouraging the expression of public opinion they would surely receive more favourable attention.

The Islamic Courts Union is a blend of Islamic and clan ideology and as such would not be that different from the forces they defeated in Mogadishu. Does Dr Lewis think that the ICU can molt into a serious political organisations with an ideology that would satisfy the majority of the Somali people?

Muslims came to the West not because of certain values but because of opportunities in their socio-economics. That is the reason.
You should understand that even Westerners are finding increasingly negative many of their own cultures such as sex, violance, adultry, etc. So, it is not all that surprising that many Muslims would have some reservations about Westerns culture and values or the lack of them.

How difficult is it to broker a compromise agreement between the TFG and the UIC on the basis that the UIC recognizes the legitimacy of the TFG, abandons it's radical ideology and confines to keeping the peace/policing the areas currently under their control; whereas the TFG agrees to power sharing, breaking any ties to Ethiopia and holding national elections in a matter of a year or two? Is such an agreement possible.

For one, I am happy to see a more balanced voice of the issues than the discredited I. M. Lewis and Mr. Goth who I respected before he became the talking head of this whole impaired issue of Somaliland lies.

Presuming that the UIC will implement Sharia law, I was wondering how this would effect other countries in the region. Will Sharia become a more acceptable alternative in other nations with Muslim majorities?

A few years ago, I read about the effects on individuals in Sudan who had had limbs amputated for theft, and their lives were essentially destroyed because of the stigma of being labeled as criminals. These individuals had no choice but to remain on the fringes of society and continue to steal in order to survive.

Not only do I find limb amputation to be inhumane, but it apparently creates lifelong criminals. Sharia is no doubt intended as a incentive not to break the law in the first place, but people living on the verge of starvation will resort to stealing if they have no other recourse to feeding themselves.

Please comment on the effects of the khat trade, both historically and today, on the continuing conflict in Somalia. If the UIC makes good on its threats to ban the trade, what will happen in the country? Also, do you think the now-displaced warlords are still profiting from the international khat trade (as opposed to Somalia's trade, wherein whomever controls the airstrips controls the trade)? Thanks.

Somali issue is in a mirage of misery, but the most ominous one for me is the secession of which, with all due respect Prof. Lewis and many others think is the panacea. Our mishaps and misery have nothing and nothing to gain from that ideology but everything to lose, because this will increase (and it has already) the tribal competition, will widen the political animosity and fragmentation. What Somalia needs is a civil society that can try to lead her out of its morasses. But I should also add that I have not much to say about Islamic Court, but that they have taken several steps that looked fine from the periphery but also taken several that have been a disaster. They have shown Taliban like mentality but opened the port that had been closed for 15 years, the airport and most importantly secured most of the north that matters, chasing the hated and cursed warlords. Yet I am frightened about what the future holds and what they will do next. There is neither a clear path nor plan.

It seems to me that the majority of muslims have a negative attitude towards western style of democracy and way of life. Therefore; I do not understand why so many muslims have come to the west to stay? Can you please help me understand this? Thank you.

The rise of ICU is a direct result of people geting weary and tired of warlordism at the capital, and therefore out of which we have the ICU. it is not, of course a political well organized entity that cac fill the political vacuum. However, instead they have one thing in common with any average muslim individual person anywhere in the world yearning for justice under the banelm of Islam in a world in thier perception unkind and too westernised. ICU is now busy to try to find a quick fix and simple answers in a situation too complex politically.

As far as the question about the SIC is concerned,
The United Islamic Courts (UIC) that rule Mogadishu today is a loosely held coalition of tribal based clerks; they came to power prematurely not on their own terms. Their expeditious victories over the warlords who run Mogadishu for the past 15 years was made possible by a popular upraise. If it wasn't the support of the average residents in Mogadishu and its environs it would have not been possible for the UIC clerks to defeat the warlords and claim victory.
I believe it will be very difficult for those citizens who were fed up with the ruthless warlord to sign off for a rigid system run by extremist in the name of Islam whose priorities are far different from the long term needs of the country. There is an imperative need for Somalia to join the world order, but not through isolation. Somalis are Muslim and practice Islam based on not extremism where trivial matters such as watching a soccer game, wedding ceremonies and throwing a party become a state responsibility.

I really believe that the Islamic courts of Somalia had a very positive impact on socio-political atmosphere in Somalia. I am a graduate student and I know that here in the USA, they have the tendency to give plethora of advise about the separation of state & religion, but Islam is a complete way of life for practising muslims. The ICU are lead by highly articulate individuals who cherish the sanctity of the somali people and their religion. Why should the Western countries have to interpose in the affairs of other countries-Local people always know what is best for them.
My question is will the US let the somali people engage in constructive dialogue and solve their own problem or it would keep instructing it's "DOG" and sole dictator in east Africa-Meles to ruin the hard-won peace?? what about the possibility of bringing war-crimes charges against Dictator Meles??? I think that would be a good solution to a lot of problems in East Africa!!
Al-qassimy

No, Mr. Goth, nobody, but you, remembers that, "Somalia enjoyed peace and stability for many years under the dictatorial regime of Siyad Barre." Human rights violations of Siad Barre regime against the weak, religious, and common people has been well-documented in international reports, including the UN.

With regards to Islamic Court Union, Somalis everywhere are pessimistic about any group that claims they will bring a long-term solution to Somalia. People are now enjoying the peace in Somalia, let us see how far it will go. The Court is now in the process of convening public meeting, the first ever, to bring Somalis of all background together to identify the course of their nation. Let us wait, see and support when they are taking the right steps. International community, including the US government, asked foriegners, particularly Ethiopia, to stay out of Somali affairs. I am very disappointed to see the Post invite individual's like Goth, who is unable to provide a balance comment when he talked about Siad Barre's regime.

I've not found very much information at all on Hassan Dahir Aweys. Could someone mention something regarding his background, his worldview and his purported contacts with al Qaeda?

This question is to Mr. Lewis, you are a supporter of the separates group, United Kingdom and United States are supporter of the separatist group, a group that is fighting and dying for the restoration of the Imperial will, in other words ( imperial demarcated lines) There is heavy army facing each other in Northern Somalia, Separatist vs. Unionist, Separatist received their funding from EU, are you not a bit hypocritical when you talk about African Union, even though your nation and the western world is hostile towards Somalis who want to remain in the union? ICG call the unionist, Jihadist? is this the second scramble of Africa?

So Islamic radicalism overtakes another "failed state." I notice the question asked in the lead-in to the discussion--about whether or not the new regime is a force for peace? That's precisely the same question that was asked about the Taliban circa 1997.

I don't believe that Islamic radicals are a force for peace. They may bring a cessation of hostilities, but only through a medieval kind of tyrranical control, a philosophy that the radicals will try to export across the world.

Can you tell us something about Hassan Dahir Aweys, his background and his worldview?

The Islamic Courts Union are the only hope for the Somali People in the long term. In the past we have seen many authorities faild, USC, ALI MAHDI'S GOVERNMENT, ARTE AGOVERNMENT, and many more. Now we can see the TFG failing its duties. I think the UIC will never fail, if they stick to their rule by the holly Quran. The airport, seaport, main roads and (Health Ministry) all being opened is success to the UIC. I dont think they will emerge as taliban style, what I do think is, they will rule by the Quran. And White House, I suggest you lift your ''wait and see policy'' on Somalia, and start helping those who brought peace to Mogadishu.

It's becoming increasingly clear that the Islamic Courts are becoming somewhat of a double-edged sword. They have managed to restore an exceptable level of order and the Somali people are grateful for the that; however, in the midst of all that lies an extremist element that slowly but surely is making itself a significant and powerful force. The leaders of the Islamic Courts seem like educated men with smooth rhetoric that catches the ear of many somalis, yet it is important for the somali people to not be blinded by this language. The Islamic Courts seem to be using this restoration of peace and subsequent popularity from the people to cloud the citizens minds as to what their real motive is, which as most people forget is to establish Sharia law throughout the country. Most Somalis are not placing enough emphasis on this point, but already the extreme conservative nature of the Islamic Courts is being displayed by some of its recent actions such as the public lashes that have been given to some individuals as punishment for crime. Let us not be naive in pretending that the Islamic Courts do not have Taliban like tendencies because they clearly do. They are an extremely powerful group in Somalia with a strong military presence that if used the wrong way could plunge the nation back into chaos. As long as men such as Sheikh Dahir Aweys hold high level posts in the Islamic Courts, the Somali people should be wary of every move they make. For now I believe that the Islamic Courts can do the job of securing the nation and maintining a level of stability that's necessary to repress chaos; however I strongly suggest that intense negotiations take place between the Islamic Courts and the weak Somali administration to insure that sometime in the near future power will be transferred to the government under a newly chosen strong leader who can then focus on rebuilding the country's infrastructure. The Somali Transitional Government should study closely the commendable achievements of Somaliland and try to build it's stability and growth around such a model. Somaliland needs to be recognized as a sovereign state before there will be any long lasting peace achieved in the Somali region, for as long as the Islamists are in the South will there be a threat to the democracy and amazing accomplishments of the people of Somaliland.

Greetings, I was just wondering why are we having this debate again? Who are we to say what can go on in Somalia n what can't? United States must understand that no one jumps in and go againsts their laws and ways of conduct then why should they mind every countries business. If people truly want to help the somali people ( if helping them means first destorying what has been built and taking all the resources) then i truly don't consider that much of anything. Let the sheikhs do their thing. As long as they are ruling according to the Islamic Shari'ah then its fine with me. Allah (god) created us and he knows whats best for us, so all these somali people who are trying to act westernized need to calm themselves down and put their trust in Allah ta'alaaaaa. Whats the point of arguing when we can be sending relieve aid.

The rise of Islamic courts in Somalia represents both a positive force for internal stabilty while at the same time it will provide an ideological sanctuary and resources for Taliban-like terrorists. Will the new religious courts come into conflict with what really holds Somalia together - the clan system that creates local and regional power centers? Just as all attempts at establishing a central government have crumbled in the face of clan- based warlordism, the new Islamic government will do the same. Somalia has to be governed by a federation of clans for it to achieve national stability.

New York, NY: Comment: Whenever man-made socio-political mechanisms fail to provide even the most basic form of civil order, peace, justice and security, societies will turn to the heavens and its creator- The Almighty God for help and salvation. At that point, one is willing to give up certain freedoms in exchange for some peace & justice. The people of Somalia seem to have opted for the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC) rather than to live under oppression of the warlords, including Abdillahi Yusuf and the TFG- a beneficial trade-off for now, at least. The UIC promises to bring about peace & justice through the application of the reins of governmental authority based on the Sharia.

Question: Who has the right to judge whether the UIC is fit to govern or not? Is it the People of Somalia or neighboring countries and international organizations?
If deemed unfit or undesirable should Ethiopian, Ugandan, etc be invited into Somalia to eliminate the UIC?
Question: If the UIC decide to expand and attempt to de-stabilize neighboring countries like Somaliland, Djibouti, Ethiopia or Kenya, how and what border point would you make a stand against an UIC -or its proxy.

Hi Toronto:
You are right: the separation of religion and state is not as popular in the muslim world as it is in the Western world. Also, you would be right not to expect that the Islamic Courts Union (ICU) will not entertain any such separation notion. I do not agree that the ICU leadership can be characterized as Wahabists. I believe that the majority of them do not subscribe or even know much about Wahabism. In fact, Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed, the chairman of the ICU stated that he does not know much about Wahabism, let alone practice it.
Will the Somali culture accept Islamic rule? Few years back when Somalis were not as desperate,I would have said no. But, given the prolonged anarchy in the country, it will not be difficult for the average Somali to tolerate the restrictions that come with Islamism if peace and security follows the imposition of such rule. Will it last? May be not.

While the separation of religion and state is popular in the western culture, it is, to different degrees, the norm in most of the Muslim world, i.e. early days of Islam and current Wahabi ideology/governance.

Do you think UIC leadership is somehow influenced by the latter (Wahabism), knowing that most of them were trained in the Gulf? Will the Somali culture accept it? Please comment.