A representative of of the Israeli government (Ambassador to the UN) called President Carter a "bigot" for speaking with Hammas, all the while the Israeli government was negotiating with Hizballah for the release of two corpses. What do we call that?

Isn't this a joke; the terrorist state of US_Israel accuses the Iranian military of being a terrorist organization. Hilarious

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/24/AR2007102402758_pf.html

David says:

"borders established in '48". Established? The UN can't do that, it can only suggest borders to the two parties. The Arab Higher Committee, representing local Arabs, and the Arab League, representing the rest, rejected UNR181 and a Jewish State, saying the land should be part of Greater Syria, as it was in the Ottoman and other Islamic Empires. Also, even most Arabs aren't demanding the UNR181 borders, but that the armistice line become a border.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here’s the truth David, which you wouldn’t recognize if it bit you in the arse:

Here is the map that is relevant:

http://www.ccmep.org/delegations/maps/palestine.html

The one on the left represents the relative ownership of Palestinian and Jewish land in 1946, prior to the illegitimate UN partition. Since, Palestine was not the UN’s to give away (as you readily agree); this is the map we will go back to.

Here is a summary of the Brief History of Palestine:

http://www.cyberus.ca/~baker/pal_hist.htm

Note that just prior to the turn of the 20th century, the total population of Palestine was 500,000 of whom 47,000 were Jews who owned 0.5% of the land.

In 1917, at the time of the illegal and immoral Balfour Declaration, and after 22 years of illegal and immoral Zionist immigration, the total population was 700,000 of which 56,000 (8%) were Jews.

In 1947, after 30 more years of Zionist immigration, the illegal UN partition of Palestine allocated 47% of the land to the Arab Palestinians who accounted for 70% of the population and owned 92% of the land.

In 2005, the Jewish population stood at about 5,200,000 (50.7%) compared to the 5,056,000 (49.3%) Arab Palestinian population.

So clearly, even you can see that the only fair and equitable thing to do is to evacuate the 5,153,000 illegitimate Zionist Jews and descendents to Texas, leaving the Jewish population at the original legitimate 47,000 that were there at the turn of the 20th century. We could leave a few more than that to account for normal population growth demographics, without the illegal and immoral Zionist immigration.

Islamaphobes,

Here is a good article that highlights what should be the focus of the Islamaphobes: the Israeli Lobby that is pushing us over the edge of the abyss. Here are some excerpts:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=26308§ionid=3510302

‘In my analysis, which is shared, for example, by Ilan Pappe, Israel's leading “revisionist” (which means honest) historian, the answer is that it's mainly the Zionist tail that wags the American dog. As I demonstrate in my epic, two-volume book, Zionism: The Real Enemy of The Jews, it is a fact that, with the arguable exception of Lyndon Johnson, every American President, including the idiot in the White House at present, tried to draw red lines that Israel should not cross; and on most occasions Israel put two fingers up and crossed them. There is no mystery about why the Zionist lobby (AIPAC plus) has such power. What passes for democracy in America is for sale to the highest bidder, and one of the highest bidders, and certainly the best organized and the most effective, is the Zionist lobby, now in association with Christian evangelical fundamentalism and parts if not all of the MIC (Military Industrial Complex). The Zionist lobby has three main weapons of influence:

- money, apparently unlimited, to fund election campaigns (candidates who offend Zionism can be and are destroyed - outspent);

- the organized Jewish vote in close election races (in half a dozen critical constituencies); and

- the use of the obscenity of the Nazi Holocaust as a blackmail card to silence criticism of Israel and suppress informed and honest debate. (On this front the Zionist lobby is assisted by the fact that, out of fear of offending Zionism, the mainstream media in America and throughout the mainly Gentile Judeo-Christian or Western world is complicit in Zionism's suppression of the truth of history. What, really, does the media fear? Punishment by the withdrawal of advertising revenue).’

i have to applaud you both for having polar opposite views, but maintaiing a reasonalbe and cordial discourse here-
that seems to be a rarity
peace

So back to the question:

The question is: Should we negotiate with terrorists?

The answer is it depends. For the case of the South Koreans, who had no business in Afghanistan in the first place, and had a chance to save a dozen or so of its captured citizens; the answer was yes. And they did negotiate and saved their peoples lives.

For the case of the British, who were being terrorized by Menachem Begin’s Irgun, history has shown that the answer should have been no. Because the British caved in to the terrorists demands, we have had 60 years of uninterrupted war and terror in the so called ‘Holy Land’. Countless thousands of innocents (women and children) have been slaughtered, and millions of families have been driven into refugee camps in neighboring countries.

In today’s Washington Post we see that the Israelis are threatening to cut off the Gaza strip’s fuel and electricity. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/19/AR2007091901156.html

Rick : Your wrong !

Zuni,

There is little need for ‘original thought and brain processes’ in this friendly discussion. The record is clear.

The Balfour Declaration essentially took Palestine away from the Palestinians and gave it to the Jews. This was illegal and immoral of course, because Palestine was not Britain’s to give. It belonged, and still belongs, to the Palestinians who tended their herds and orchards, and farmed the land for millennia.

The relevance of the Irgun is that this was one of the more vicious terrorist groups, under the leadership of Menachem Begin, who drove the Palestinians from their land and the British from the country.

Shalom.

Rick : My last comment is still under review, so in the meantime I say you still have not dealt with the issue. You are cutting and pasting. Again I state there is nothing "illegal or immoral " about the Balfour declaration nor Jewish immigration.What the Irgun has to with anything is a mystry to me. You are not using original thought and brain processes. You are copying Anti-Israeli diatribes you can find anywhere on the web. Rick, I bid you adieu until we meet again. Shaloem !

Zuni,

You say: ‘There never was a legitimate state of Palestine.’

I say: True, but following WWI, there was a British Mandate of Palestine that included Palestine and Transjordan, in which Palestine occupied the region now occupied by the illegitimate ‘State of Israel’, the West Bank and Gaza.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You say: ‘What in the hell is illegal and immoral about the Balfour declaration and Jewish, nee Zionist immigration?

I say: From Wikipedia ‘The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated November 2, 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government on the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of the World War I.

The letter stated the position, agreed at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a Jewish "national home" in Palestine, with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there. (In jurisprudence and law, a right is the legal or moral entitlement to do or refrain from doing something or to obtain or refrain from obtaining an action, thing or recognition in civil society.)’

So the result was the forceful injection by the Crusaders, of the Zionist Jews, who had been expelled from the region 2000 years ago; they could not coexist in peace with the native population. They had invaded and occupied this region following their great escape from slavery in Egypt; they had a Holier than Thou attitude, and claimed to be God’s chosen people.

Who would have thought that such a Zionist immigration could ever satisfy: ‘the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities’ of Palestine?

The British soon recognized the folly of this policy and attempted to halt the Zionist immigration. They were attacked by a group named Irgun (some call it Etzel), established by the Right-Wing of the Zionist Movement in Palestine and the violent wing of the Zionist movement. The most well-known of these attacks was the King David Hotel bombing which occurred on July 22, 1946. This was a well-planned act engineered by the Irgun's Leader and future Prime Minster, Menachem Begin.

So the Balfour Declaration, and resulting Zionist immigration, was a terrible mistake. The British tried and failed to reverse this terrible decision.

Repercussions of this heinous crime are behind all turmoil and bloodshed in the Middle East including Iraq, Lebanon, Palestinian occupied territories, Syria, Iran etc.

The whole world will never see peace as long as the crime of the 20th century is not corrected.

Rick : First of all who the hell is MASS ? Second, there never was a legitmate state of Palestine. Third what in the hell is illegal and immoral about the Balfour declaration and Jewish,nee Zionist immigration ? Fourth, Muslims and Christians were not forced out of the Mandate; but over 800,000 Jews were tossed out of Muslim countries. Fifth, I see no reason for Israel to comply with any UN resolution simply because the various states who want Israel to comply refuse to comply with the resolution by the same UN establishing Israel and Palestine. Sixth, Arab Muslims have always recited the mantra "from the river to the sea there is none for thee its all for me. " Seventh,one state results in no Jewish nation. Everyone knows that. Eighth, the best soultion is move the illegal and immoral Muslim squaters out of Israel and settle them in their native Muslim land of Jordan. It's a lot closer than Texas. Now Rick I am getting a little tired of bashing Israel. It is not leaving. All these other diatribes are merely attempts to de-legitimize Israel. Lets move on to Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq; all parts of former mandates. Rick seriously it was swell talking to you. Enough already. Ihad all this stuff in college.

Now, back to business; here is an excellent post from MASS which I think captures our dilemma perfectly. Serious criminal mistakes were made last century by the UN, Great Britain and the USA: e.g. the Balfour Declaration of 1917 accelerating the illegal and immoral emigration and Zionist infestation of Palestine, and the UN partition of Palestine in 1947 leading to the establishment of the current illegitimate ‘State of Israel’. The question of this century is what are we going to do about it? The UN obviously needs to be restructured to negate the terrorist state of US_Israel’s ability to veto any attempt at a just solution to this crisis.

MASS:

‘The whole world will never see peace as long as the crime of the 20th century is not handled adequately. The legitimate state of Palestine was removed from the world map to be replaced by the illegitimate state of Israel with new immigrants from all over the world. Palestinians, being Moslems or Christians, were kicked out into refugee camps to be replaced by Jews from Europe, Russia, Ethiopia, Poland etc.

Repercussions of this heinous crime are behind all turmoil and bloodshed in the Middle East including Iraq, Lebanon, Palestinian occupied territories, Syria, Iran etc.

The unlimited support of US to Israel has been encouraging the latter to reject all UN resolutions on the Palestinian Issue including Resolution 194 which calls for the return of all Palestinian refugees home. It is time for the US admin to wake up to the real cause of all problems in the area and to resolve this chronic issue in a fair way to all concerned parties immediately. The only feasible solution to this chronic problem is to set up one secular state for all Israelis and Palestinians regardless of their religion to live in peace on all the land of historical Palestine.’

I would only add that we have proven the hard way that Israelis and Palestinians cannot live together. We must evacuate the 5 million illegitimate Jews from Palestine and relocate them to Texas.

Rick : I love you my Bro !

Zuni,

Relax buddy, you must be all shook up, if you are signing your posts with my name.

Actually, I do like you. We have much in common. We both feel very strongly about what we perceive to be just and unjust. We just happen to be coming from opposite poles of the political spectrum.

I won’t be leaving the good ole USA any time soon. I feel that I am a strong patriot, much more so than the air heads who salute and blindly follow our Dear Leader and World Class Hypocrite as he tries to lead us over the cliff.

I am very much enjoying our amicable exchange of ideas and look forward to the continuation of it.

Peace.

heres the report on internation religious freedom from a US government site-

it details all of the religious restrictions and violations that israel has imposed on the palestinians- simply way too many to enumerate here-

also, it doesnt even call palestine -palestine, but israeli occupied territories (hows THAT for denying their existence?)

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71423.htm

Rick, sorry the last post was from me addressed to you. Forgive me.

You may not like me, but yo mama does ! She coming to Texas and then Israel, while you go the Saudi desert to tend camels, chant and learn how to wear a suicide vest. Remember, learn well; you only get to use it once. Since you claim Israel and the USA are terrorist nations, I'm sure you want to leave the USA right away and have already bought your one way ticket to Saudi Arabia or Iran. If you leave from New York try to visit the site of the twin towers. Don't laugh however. Tell me when you are leaving and I will try to visit you at the departure gate. To recap you feel Islam is not a violent religion. Muslims cutting off Buddists heads in Tahiland; Muslims blowing Christians up in the Phillipines; Muslims killing Christians in Russia; Muslims cutting of a Jew's head in Pakistan, as well as machine gunning Christain churches; Muslims blowing up night clubs in Indonisia only becaue Christains were inside; Muslims blowing up Hindu pilgrims in India; Muslims blowing up buses in Israel because Jews were inside;and lets not forget Muslims killing Muslims in Iraq. This is peaceful ? Rick you are ill and a few clowns short of a full circus.

So let's recap:

The question is: Should we negotiate with terfrorists?

The answer is no.

Islam is not a violent religion, but it does reserve the right to defend itself from the world's one and only terrorist nation, US_Israel.

Therefore, the message to the world's one and only terrorist nation, US_Israel:

Stop your Holy War on Islam.

Vacate the occupied Muslim holy land in Palestine and Iraq.

Vacate the 5 Million jews from Palestine and bring them to Texas.

Don’t worry so much, you will love Texas. We will partition it so that your half is contiguous, while the other half is divided into separated quarters.

You will have the prime real estate including the Dallas-Fort Worth and Crawford areas.

You will have control of the fresh water supply.

You can keep your Army, Navy, Air Force and nuclear weapons. We will back you up with the full power of the world’s last remaining super power.

We will immediately stop all federal aid to the native population, while continuing your $3 B annual aid.

Feel free to launch all the settlements that you wish in the native half’s real estate.

Assassinate the opposition leadership to create chaos on the other side.

See, it will just be a Grand Old Party.

I’m sure that you will get along famously with our Dear Leader and World Class Hypocrite in the White House.

Rick : I will be with yo Mama.

Zuni,

Whew! You had me worried there for a minute. Good bye and good riddance, and God bless your black little heart.

Now slither back to the dark hole that you came from.

Rick : My bro, I see you and Victoria are trying to play tag team. I would be careful. American Observer and Hondo may be watching. I have a "dark heart " 'as you put it' soley for bigoted,tunnel vision Israel bashers, who blame Jews for dandruff and the common cold.You fit the mold.If I were you I would never venture into Texas little Ricky. On the other hand you won't be able to. You and your friends will be living in the middle of the Saudi desert raising camels and doing a lot of chanting. I'm sure if you plead loudly, Hamas will let you see how to make rockets to kill Jews. As I said earlier Israel has survived 3000 years and will survive at least another 3000. Now Rickie go out and play. I'm done with you. Regards to yo mama.

Zuni,

Thanks for allowing us a glimpse into your dark heart. It is amazing what one can learn on this site and quite gratifying.

Don’t worry so much, you will love Texas. We will partition it so that your half is contiguous, while the other half is divided into separated quarters.

You will have the prime real estate including the Dallas-Fort Worth and Crawford areas.

You will have control of the fresh water supply.

You can keep your Army, Navy, Air Force and nuclear weapons. We will back you up with the full power of the world’s last remaining super power.

We will immediately stop all federal aid to the native population, while continuing your $3 B annual aid.

Feel free to launch all the settlements that you wish in the native half’s real estate.

Assassinate the opposition leadership to create chaos on the other side.

See, it will just be a grand old party.

I’m sure that you will get along famously with our Dear Leader and World Class Hypocrite in the White House.

Hi Victoria,

I love you baby.

What Melman fails to understand is that it is the
military occupation of the remaining Palestinian
territories that convinced some to fight Israel.

As Israel's Ethnic Cleansing, Land Grab, more
Expulsions, Strangling Palestinians' Life in over
a 1,000 Roadblocks, Destroying the Palestinian
Economy, Disregard to International Obligations,
Killing Hundreds of Children...

Countless Violent "IDF Operations" that all combined
to become the ROOT CAUSES which support TERRORISM.

He who wants to defeat Terror must end the ILLEGAL
OCCUPATION. There is no other way out.

I want to end by wishing my Jewish friends:
Shana Tova - Happy New Year

and to my My Moslem friends:
Peaceful Ramadan.

May True Peace and Justice Return to Rule the Minds -
- and Replace the Evils of Terror and Counter Terror!

[Ramadan and the Jewish New Year are today!
Let this coincidence bring us all Peace!]

rick- as my mother used to say- let the headbangers bang

peace

Could't deal with the issue and questions huh Rickster ? Actually, Rickster The Jews will Have Israel as long as the Lord G-D will permit. Israel will continue long after you and your mama lay a moldering in your pine boxes somewhere that cannot be described herein. Get my drift Rickster ? Happy New year to your mama.

Zuni,

Don't worry, there will be no gas chambers in the Sinai. We will partition Texas and you can have half. Crawford can be your new capital. There will be plenty of room for the current 5,140,000 Jewish population of Israel as of the April 24, 2007 census.

Thanks Victoria. I signed the petition, but it seems way too mild. Where does it say return to the original September 1947 UN partition borders?

heres a link to sign a petition to implement the resolutions,
however since 1955 almost 200 toothless and unenforced resolutions have been passed by the UN against israel.

0 resolutions have been passed against the palestinians
http://www.petitiononline.com/84766866/petition.html

Zuni says:

'If we had no Israel tomorrow Bin Laden would still be plotting against the west.'

Yes, but if we were not illegally occupying Palestine and Iraq, slaughtering millions of innocents (mostly women and children), and driving millions of families into refugee camps; then, we would have the moral high ground, not OBL.

Hey gang : We seem to be all over the place. What's the question ? Please Rick what part of Palestine is being illegally and immorally occupied ? The total mandate; the resolution establishing Israel;the 1948 border; the 1967 line ? What resolutions has Israel violated that have not been sponsered and supported by an Arab nation; the Arab League; Islamic council. How many Muslim nations supported the resolutions and how many Jewish countries opposed it ? How many Muslims echo your "illegal occupation " theory (I will help) about 1.7 billion; how many Jews oppose it Rickster( about 12 million )? God bless the USA, without the veto you seem to dislike you could start helping the poor picked upon muslims set up the gas chambers in the Sinai. I have seen enough of theories blaming Jews for everything. Bin Laden wants the west to become Muslim. If we had no Israel tomorrow Bin Laden would still be plotting against the west. Leave off Rickster,leave off.

Rick, AO & others:

The fact is that Iraq war has taken one away from chasing Osama bin Laden. This is a report that appeared on the Rediff. It was written by an ex-ISI (Inter Services Intelligence) personnel in Pakistan.

The report is interesting, and shows the flaws in the thinking process of Osama's enemy. Its a clash of civilizations that Osama is pushing ahead and wants success.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/sep/11hamid.htm

Deb Chatterjee wrote:

'...why would it be immoral (not to be confused with "illegal") to get into the neighbors home, and take those thugs (Taliban) out...? '

It would not be immoral to take them out in Afghanistan; and we did. However, we have no obligation, nor unlimited resources (young men's lives and national wealth), to remain forever. At some point, the locals have to learn to defend themselves. If they are not able, or lack the will; then perhaps they deserve to be dominated by the stronger sect.

Pakistan is different. We don't have the capability to take out Bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri in the Mountains of Pakistan. Hell, we couldn't even take them out when we had them surrounded at Tora Bora.

Plus we must not destabilize the already shaky Musharraf government.

In Palestine, we are spending $3 B per annum to support the immoral and illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine. We should stop this aid immediately and insist that Israel comply with the hundreds of UN resolutions against them, for which our veto provided the sole dissent.

Victoria:

The doctrine of Islam is about inclusion only when one unconditionally surrenders to Islam. Its otherwise pure hate who would question/ridicule Islam and want to remain defiant to the bloodthirsty Allah.

My guess is that OBL is planning on a bloodlust right after the "sacred months have passed" (Ramadan period). (See Quran[009:005]).

who mentioned pakistan deb?
are you suggesting the US invade pakistan also?
the exiled prime minister sharif has vowed that he would go to prison to insure the democratic process be instituted in pakistan.

wouldn't it be to america's and the world advantage if america stopped suporting musharraf?

now, Ramadan starts tomorrow in america. it is a month long observation. we fast from sunup to sundown, in america that is approximately from 5:30 am to 7:20pm.

no water no food- gum anything passes our lips during our fast, and we spend the evening in prayer.

ive suggested to the local imam that we invite local congregatins of different faiths to celebrate our iftar with us. iftar is the meal at sundown when we break our fast.

ive engaged many times before in inviting those of different faiths to participate with us always with excellent and community building effects.
breaking bread together in peace has built friendships and strength of purpose that lasts far beyond the ramadan season.

the turks just held their election recently-
they are trying to build a strng democracy- so far quite successfully.

the algerians just held a protest with 10s of thousands against terrorism in their country.

the pakistanis have an election coming up.

without interference muslims are finding their own way to self determination.

islam is in itself about unity of people.

it says in the qu'ran "ALLAH has created you from many different nations, that you may know each other."

inclusion, not brute force.

Rick wrote:

"This is wrong, we cannot continue to occupy Muslim land in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine."

About Iraq, I have agreement with you and other 2nd/3rd graders. On Afghanistan, NO.

Imagine thus: if you live in a "locality" (in this case the locality is the world/globe) where you see that from a neighbor's house some criminals are, on a daily basis, lynching, mugging, beating, stealing .... etc., up the other lawful neighbors, why would it be immoral (not to be confused with "illegal") to get into the neighbors home, and take those thugs out ? [The neighbor's men (who live in that home) have violated other law-abiding residents' 1st Amendment/Human rights already.]

A similar, but not exact argument holds for Afghanistan and Pakistan. I'm sorry I don't agree with you fully.

AO- you seem to have the most rudimentary understanding of what sanctions are.

i am absolutely sure that you paid no attention to the events as they transpired, and are formulating a contrived hypotheses after the fact based on some quick googles to support whatever point it is youre trying to belabor.

you stated-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"No, it merely shows that we kept sanctions on Iraq for a dozen years and Saddam kept cheating on the sanctions and stealing the supplies and funds that were meant for the hospitals and schools so that he could rebuild his military, and we kept trying to find ways to help the Iraqi people despite the worst efforts of their 'government."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

the purpose of the sanctions was to PREVENT supplies and funds from getting into iraq-

here is an extremely simple synopsis of the sanctions-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The UN Security Council imposed comprehensive economic sanctions against Iraq on August 6, 1990, just after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. When the coalition war had ousted Iraq from Kuwait the following year, the Council did not lift the sanctions, keeping them in place as leverage to press for Iraqi disarmament and other goals. The sanctions remained in place thereafter, despite a harsh impact on innocent Iraqi civilians and an evident lack of pressure on Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. A UN "Oil-for-Food Programme," STARTED IN LATE 1997, offered some relief to Iraqis, but the humanitarian crisis continued. The US and UK governments always made it clear that they would block any lifting or serious reforming of sanctions as long as Hussein remained in power. After more than twelve years of sanctions had passed, the US and the UK made war on Iraq again in March, 2003, sweeping away Hussein's government. Soon after, Washington called for and obtained the lifting of sanctions, a step that gave the US occupation authority full control over Iraq's oil sales and oil industry."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you contend the kuwaiti invasion was a 'success', what constitutes success to you?
papa bush didnt even say that.

and george junior stated he was going to finish what papa started (not finished successfully).

so to recap- sanctions DO NOT MEAN resources going in- (to be mismanaged) but NO RESOURCES GOING IN AT ALL.

ANTHRAX? you mean like the white vial held up by colin powell at the UN as a reason to go to war?
ANTHRAX?

Please pardon this paste from another thread, but I think that it is very germane to this conversation:

GAYLE :

Hi Rick,

You say-

"Victoria would not say that it is a matter of interpretation of the Qur'an, but rather looking at the entire work as a whole."

If this were true we could say many violent people have misread and under-read the Quran. However, the more passionate mujahideen are hafiz. So this argument is obsolete.

September 10, 2007 10:00 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

RICK:

Hi Gayle,

Isn't this fun?

From Wikipedia:

Hafiz (Quran), a term used by Muslims for people who have completely memorized the Qur'an

It's amazing what you learn on this site. You are very knowledgeable on this topic. Tell me more about yourself.

OK, Victoria, this is a fine predicament we are in. Gayle says that we cannot claim ignorance.

I think that Victoria will say (and I agree) that it is not about religion; it is about men, hateful, evil men, and men with a grudge.

And a good part of the grudge has to do with the way we treat Muslims, invading and occupying Muslim land in Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan; slaughtering millions of innocents, mostly women and children, and driving millions of families into refugee camps.

Islam is under attack by the west, and has been since 1917, the Balfour Declaration: ‘His Majesty would favor the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.’ They are mad as hell, and they aren't going to take it any more.

September 11, 2007 5:28 AM

Deb Chatterjee,

Thanks for your vote. You seem to be a most intelligent person. Welcome to 3rd Grade. What's the score now Hondo?

However, you say:

'However, now that we are in Iraq, which Iraqis see an "invasion" with their "dear leader" (Saddam the despot) hanged, they are mad as hell at American "Crusaders", and want us killed. If we leave, the hyenas (Al-Qaeda) shall run after us. The problem is that we cannot turn back now and accept our defeat, and eventual destruction.'

This is wrong, we cannot continue to occupy Muslim land in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine.

As for Pakistan, we must tread very softly there as well. It is probably a near impossible task to rout Bin Laden, and more importantly Ayman Al-Zawahiri, out of their hole in Pakistan. Also, we don't want to topple another semi-stable government, one that is nuclear armed.

We have done about all the damage that can be done with our offense for now. We don't want to dig our hole any deeper. What's the first law of holes? Stop digging. It's time to come home and play defense for a while.

Rick and AO:

You are both right - but mostly Rick. Sorry, AO !

Yes, Rick, occupying Muslim lands is not the best thing to do. It's like living in a snake hole.

But AO is still right, and that means although you don't want to live inside a snake hole, you want to know if inside a hole the snake lives or not. If it does, you want to smoke'em out and have its head cutoff.

Invading Iraq on the false pretext of WMD and Saddam and his 9/11 connection was WRONG. Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith drew the blueprint; Rummy liked it and Dick Cheney sold it. George W. and American public bought it. It was that simple.

However, now that we are in Iraq, which Iraqis see an "invasion" with their "dear leader" (Saddam the despot) hanged, they are mad as hell at American "Crusaders", and want us killed. If we leave, the hyenas (Al-Qaeda) shall run after us. The problem is that we cannot turn back now and accept our defeat, and eventual destruction.

We need to beat the hell out of these terrorists, and stop them there. There is some truth in the saying that we should fight them in Iraq rather than in Indiana.

Rick and AO: what should we do about Pakistan which is sheltering Osama bin Laden in its North West Frontier ?

OK, Al-Qaeda may have poison gas and biological weapons. But occupying Afghanistan, Palestine and Iraq does nothing to counter that. On the contrary, it just serves as a great recruitment tool for them to attract newer, more fervent converts.

Also, it's a game of whack-a-mole. We can chase them from Afghanistan and they just show up somewhere else, like Pakistan.

There are no easy answers, but occupying Muslim land is not the right approach.

AM Vienna Va says:

"American Observer and Others: The Lancet estimates of 500,000+ WERE accepted by the US government. "

American Observer replies:

I know -- that is why I was able to use the figures with such devastating effect against Rick and Victoria. If you didn't read that part, go read it again. If you did not understand it, please ask someone to help you.

AM Vienna Va says:

"Despite many rumblings, the sanctions regime was modified because of that report. That was an implicit acceptance that we (the US) were responsible for those deaths."

American Observer replies:

No, it merely shows that we kept sanctions on Iraq for a dozen years and Saddam kept cheating on the sanctions and stealing the supplies and funds that were meant for the hospitals and schools so that he could rebuild his military, and we kept trying to find ways to help the Iraqi people despite the worst efforts of their 'government.' If you need me to explain that in slower and simpler terms, I will.

Rick says:

"I have to admit that I don’t know how long the allies occupied Germany, Italy and Japan after WWII; I’ll have to do some research. Maybe you (or someone else) can help me out with that."

American Observer replies:

Alright, I know that we ruled Japan directly for seven years, and we still have soldiers there. I don't know the exact amount of time before we allowed Germany and Italy to elect their own governments, but we still have soldiers in those countries as well. Yes, those soldiers were there as part of the Cold War, to prevent a Soviet invasion; but if you think that preventing a second rise of the Axis was not also part of their duties, well, you need to talk to a European or an Asian that you trust.

Rick says:

"I don’t think that the power of Afghanistan and Iraq compare very well with Germany, Italy and Japan. "

American Observer replies:

Really? Do you mean that Germany, Japan, and Italy attacked us too early in history to reach our shores with nuclear weapons or poison gas or anthrax? Since you know that the Al-Qaeda have already experimented with poison gas and biological weapons, you must be saying that the danger from an Al-Qaeda haven is actually greater -- right?

AMVIENNAVA,

Thanks for the moral support. You sound like an extremely intelligent person.

AO says:

Tell me, what would have happened if we had tried that in Germany, Japan, and Italy after the Second World War?

Rick says:

I have to admit that I don’t know how long the allies occupied Germany, Italy and Japan after WWII; I’ll have to do some research. Maybe you (or someone else) can help me out with that. However, I don’t think that the power of Afghanistan and Iraq compare very well with Germany, Italy and Japan. And it should have only been Afghanistan, had we not preemptively invaded Iraq for no good reason.

Comparison between Israel and India results in a shameful scenario. India has been a victim of 70,000 lives since 2001. However, a UN investigation reported India fails the test of preventing Islamic terrorism in the future. Now that Al-Qaeda is finding that its might with USA is not working, it shall train its bombs on India, and the result is heavy casualties. Indian politicians are good at genuflecting before terrorists, and their analysis in 20/20 hindsight (i.e. after the bloodbath has happened, and the terrorist is there no more) is very very good/scholarly.

Just read the Hindustan Times report:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/storypage/storypage.aspx?id=33f35579-1a90-426d-b924-4df83ede8122&&Headline=India+lacks+the+capability+to+win+terror+war%3a+UN

A country that prides its "non-violence" policy, builds nukes, has highest number of techies in Bangalore, can't defend itself.

USA should rewind its outsourcing operations from India and move it to China.

Shameful !

Mohammad Allam:

Communal riots and Islamic terrorism are not the same. Islamic terrorism has often followed communal riots and particularly in India.

The deplorable Gujarat massacare was provoked by Muslim lynchmob setting a compartment of the fated Sabarmati express on fire. The slaughter of devotees by the Jihadi members of the Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LeT) at the Akshardham temple complex, is also a reason to be reckoneed with.

In Kashmir Muslims want to secede, having made their political point about the issue through their engagement in terrorism resulting in slaughter of 400,000 Kashmiri Hindus and non-Muslims in the valley since 1989. And BTW, Muslims want to secede simply because they want a Muslim majority state there. I wonder, if Muslims became a majority in USA sometime in the future wouldn't they want United States to become an Islamic Republic and be ruled by Sharia laws ?

The recent blasts in New Delhi, Mumbai, Varanasi, Hyderabad - all in India, and the associated killing of innocent persons by Muslim radicals (Jihadists) show the difference between terrorism and communal riots. Probably only the sick, twisted mind cannot discern the difference between the two.

Islamic terrorism is the most dangerous socio-political cancer that is spreading globally. This is not motivated by poverty or anything similar, because most of the Jihadists come from affluent backgrounds.

This (Islamic terrorism) needs to be ruthlessly put down, as argues Yossi Melman.

Rick, if we withdraw, the Taliban will simply take power again. However, you seem to advocate allowing the Taliban to take power again, with all of the crimes that would entail against their neighbors; then, if the Taliban sell too much opium or blow up too many American embassies, we invade again, and overthrow the Taliban again, and then we withdraw, and then we allow the Taliban to take power again. After two or three repetitions we should hope that treating an entire nation like a row of ten pins in a bowling alley will convince the ruling party to confine global jihad to their own borders.

Wow. What a recipe for endless massacre -- worse than anything that the Afghans are suffering right now. Tell me, what would have happened if we had tried that in Germany, Japan, and Italy after the Second World War? Do you think that the Nazis would eventually have decided to keep the Thouand-Year Reich within their own borders? How many years and how many lives would the second and third dosages of Allied rebuke have cost the Allies and the Axis both?

AO Says:

...We defeated the Nazis and overthrew their regime, and we defeated the Taliban, but you have said that we should not have ovethrown the Taliban regime, which is as stupid as saying we should have defeated Hitler's armies but left Hitler in power....

Rick Says:

From previous posts:

...As I said, we were correct to invade Afghanistan and oust the Taliban; though it is testimony to the incompetence of our Dear Leader that he allowed Bin Laden to escape at Tora Bora....

...Continuing to occupy the country to convert the heathens to democracy is futile and irresponsible, exceeded in hypocrisy only by our disastrous adventure in Iraq. By the way, have you heard that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11? ...

So you see AO, I do not advocate leaving the Taliban in power. The mistake is continuing to occupy the country indefinitely. We should smash anyone who attacks us, as the Taliban did on 9/11. Then we should withdraw and monitor the situation covertly, much more competently than we were doing prior to 9/11.

If the behavior persists, then we smash them and withdraw repeatedly, until they lose their appetite for attacking us.

It is our occupation of Muslim land that is not tenable.

Rick: Your exchange with 'American Observer' proves that you cannot discuss anything on a rational basis with someone who refuses facts.

AS for the comments by 'Hondo', I believe you are right: He must be convinced that the Iraq venture is a glorious victory for the US.

American Observer and Others: The Lancet estimates of 500,000+ WERE accepted by the US government. Despite many rumblings, the sanctions regime was modified because of that report. That was an implicit acceptance that we (the US) were responsible for those deaths.

The following is an excerpt from MIN HAMETZAR (p. 92)
by Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT"L
Dean of Nitra Yeshiva

The excerpt is a literal translation of the letter the Jewish Rescue Committee in Czechoslovakia received from the Zionist "Jewish" Agency Executive Offices in Switzerland.

This was in reply to the call of the Jewish Rescue Committee for help, with documentary evidence furnished, concerning the fate of millions of Jewish people in Nazi occupied Europe.

"We are writing to remind you of the one factor of which you must never lose sight: that ultimately, the Allies will win the war. After their victory, territorial boundaries will be reshaped as they were after the First World War. Then, the way will be clear for our purpose at this time, with the war drawing to a close, we must do everything in our power to change Eretz Yisroel to Medinat Yisrael and many steps have already been taken in this regard. Therefore, we must turn a deaf ear to the pleas and cries emanating from Eastern Europe. Remember this: all the allies have suffered many losses, and if we also do not offer human sacrifices, how can we gain the right to sit at the conference table when the territorial boundaries are reshaped? Accordingly, it is foolhardy and brazen for us to negotiate in terms of money or supplies in exchange for Jewish lives. How dare we ask of the allied powers to barter money for lives while they are sustaining heavy casualties daily? So, insofar as the masses are concerned: RAK B'DAM TIHJE LANU HAAREZ, (Eretz Yisroel will be ours only by paying with blood), but as far as our immediate circle is concerned, ATEM TAJLU. The messenger bearing this letter will supply you with funds for this purpose".

After I accustomed myself to the peculiar writing, I trembled when I realized the import of RAK B'DAM TIHJE LANU HAAREZ. But many weeks passed, and I was still confounded by the meaning of ATEM TAJLU. Until one day, it struck me. ATEM TAJLU meant "You escape", for the word "tiyul" (walking trip) was used by them as a euphemistic code for "escape". They meant to say - you fifteen or twenty "party members", escape from Czechoslovakia and save your hides. The price of Eretz Yisroel is the blood of the men and women, hoary sages, and babes in arms - but not YOUR blood! Let us not spoil this plan by giving the Axis powers to save Jewish lives. But for you, comrades, I have enclosed carfare for your escape. What a nightmare! The Zionist agent "diplomat" comes to Czechoslovakia and says 'Now is a very critical time. But comparatively speaking it is not at all critical for you trapped Jews. For there is an emergency of far greater proportions; namely, BINYAN HA-ARETZ (the prize of Medinat Yisrael). Shed your blood cheerfully, for your blood is cheap. But for your blood, the Land (of Israel) will be ours!

Read R. Weissmandl's Ten Questions to the Zionists

BTW, those who argue that our Dear Leader's policy in Iraq is wrong, do not 'hate America'. We just have a keen grasp of the obvious.

It is those who blindly support this policy who are doing maximal harm to America and the world.

AO and Victoria,

I think that we are getting wrapped around the axel over the numbers here, which are only estimates after all. No one knows what the numbers are; you can pick whatever estimates serve your argument best.

Here is where Victoria and I part ways (but only on this one issue). I have not suggested that we should have stopped the sanctions or no fly zone (regardless of what the French or Germans were saying).

The solution to the 500,000(?) dead babies was not to drop t