Given that there is no activity in this blog since October 25, 2007 12:16 PM, I am disappointed that it may be too late to contribute and hopefully get Professor Ozel to answer.

For the meanwhile, I would like to have anyone with knowledge of the following two matters, contribute and bring this discussion to a whole other level.

1) I have found a very well researched thesis from 1988 that describes Turkey as having between 15,000 and 20,000 political prisoners. It is important to note that the figures cannot be properly tallied since Turkey refuses to provide them. I suspect that the problem since then has worsened based on the Islamist government in power and the agenda they enforce versus the secular modus of the government when the above figures were sited. The other reason I believe the figure to be very much higher, is that the relationship the state has with the minorities like the Kurds these days has worsened since then.
I would be very happy if some savvy reader proved me wrong but would like to know the recent data on Turkey's human rights violations and tally on the political prisoners.

2) I am very curious to read other people's thoughts on Turkey's human rights defence. The European Union has accused Turkey for lacking the basic principles and institutions to acknowledge human rights and protections, and it is one of the contentious issues that still keeps Turkey out of the EU, even after 40 years of trying.

My question for the present, aside from the matter of the Armenian Genocide:
The basic issue in question here is Turkey's brutality toward the minorities and special interest groups.

Does this policy issue contribute to the "Kurdish Problem" as Turkey has labelled it?

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

To all concerned:

I have read a little bit of the ongoing discussion and based on my experience with Victoria in other discussions, I have concluded that her modus is to degenerate the discussions she participates in (mostly on the topic of Turkey), into an irrational arguments about unrelated issues so as not to have to discuss the basic underline Turkish problems and to prevent us from so doing as well.

I have seen her use misinformation to get us objecting to the issues she proposes, and the manner she does it, so as to prevent free discussions, making frustration rule the issues.

I recommend that she be ignored unless she is able to rationally, and without erratic and random conjectures on both facts and fiction, contribute to this and many discussions like this.

P.S. I will have to do a lot of reading to catch up to this discussion but will contribute when I am able to fully understand the topic and points raised herein.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

An objective article that reflects the truth about the issue.

VICTORIA @ October 24, 2007 4:52 PM: What are you referring to?

That there was no Armenian revolution? There was not. Read 'The Ottoman Centuries' by Kinross. It is an exhaustive study of the the Ottomans, from when the Seljuks arrived to Western Iran through the birth of Modern Turkey.

That the organized massacres of the Armenians began in 1895 under the Sultan, nicknamed 'Bedros the Armenian'? They did. That the massacres of Christians in Turkey continued through 1923 and even in tothe 60's? They did.

You want the Armenians to 'open their archives'? What nonsense: refugees who are raped and starved on a march to nowhere have NO archives. They have only the memories of the few who survived. The 'archives' would be held by those who gave and carried out the orders.

Your defense of Muslims, actually authorities, is very consistent. But it neither creates facts nor negates what happened.

it hardly lends to your credibilty to be personally insulting garak

i was talking about the world court

the turkish military may want this statute on the books, but they are not running the show in turkey are they?

and it doesnt detract from the fact that this is being discussed, by the current administration as stated.

i seem to remember a decision by the turkish courts that found the leaders of the young turks guilty of massacring the armenians, but that is not the same as the turkish courts validating the claim of genocide, as you suggest.

it is not true that the armenians have no recrods, there are certainly eye witness acounts
one from a prime minister whose book has been banned, that calls into question many claims.

why do you think that the turkish government serves at the pleasure of the military?

maybe last year- but not now.

anyway- usually i post links but ive done a bit of that tonight, so we can respectfully disagree.

well, I will respectfully disagree anyway.

Victoria: You are a piece of work. Your comments are totally inane. Calculatingly inane, but inane nonetheless.

The Armenians have no archives to study. They were not a state when the Armenian Holocaust took place. States keep archives, not persecuted peoples.

Turkey is making some noises about repealing section 301, but has taken no steps whatsoever. All they've done is blow some hot air. And even that has enraged the Turkish right. The Turkish military has made it clear they want section 301 kept on the books. As Turkey's civilian gov't serves at the pleasure of the military, section 301 is here to stay. And the Turkish gov't still uses section 301 to stifle political dissent.

The Nazis did have their day in court--in criminal court, not in a court of history. The Nuremburg trials proceeded on the reality of the Nazi genocide of the Jew, Gypsies, and others. The Turks did their trials. And guess what? Turkey already has had its trials. Turkey's gov't tried leaders of the CUP for exterminating the Armenians, and found them GUILTY. A Turkish court, Victoria. How do you explain away this fact of history?

You are entitled to your own opinions, however repugnant, but not your own facts. Turkey cannot rewrite history.

as i understand it, article 301 is under consideration for being written out, is it not?

as for thr nazis, even they had ther day in court.

why will the armenians not open up their archives for persual?

amvienna- as always, you tell people hey are wrong- but you never bother to elaborate why, or provide any references-

you are welcome to an opinion, but it is only that.

It is not up to the criminal to determine whether or not he has committed a crime. That determination is made by others. The victims and the aggrieved should not have to wait on the good graces of the murderer's conscience to receive justice and recognition of the wrong done to them.

Perhaps Germany should have been left to itself to determine whether the Holocaust was indeed a genocide, and the Allies should never have tried its architects at Nuremberg. Oh, wait a minute, I forgot - that idea's *$@&!#% INSANE!!! So's Ozel's drivel. Admit the crime, swallow the shame, ask forgiveness. Follow the Germans' postwar example and accept responsibility so you can move on, instead of choking on this chicken bone.

Sorry Turkey,

It was done to mess up George Bush in Iraq, more than condemn you. The US Congress has proven that genocide in and of itself does not matter. Darfur, Rwanda others. It was the Ottoman Turks that killed the Armenians to be sure. But this resolution was designed to slow bleed our troops in Iraq, by giving Turkey a reason to cut off their support.

Then the Democrats in Congress would have had cover to blame the lack of supplies on Turkey, not them. Because, you know, they support the troops. That is why this resolution became timely now.

Victoria: The offer of a commission to study the Ottoman archives is a fraud. The distinguished Turkish historian Prof. Taner Akcam did just this. His excellent book, A Shameful Act, uses evidence from the Ottoman archives to conclusively show the Armenians were victims of a genocide. His rewards from Turkey were death threats and criminal charges under Section 301 of the Turkish Penal Code, which makes denying "Turkishness" a crime. So tell us, how could any commission come to an honest conclusion with the threat of criminal prosecution hanging over their heads should they come to the wrong conclusion? Turkey won't repeal section 301 even to join the EU. Face it, Turkey is afraid of its own past, and with good reason.

Same to you, Justiceforall. How would you explain this inconvenient truth? Study the archives, but you go to one of Turkey's fine "Midnight Express" prisons if you tell the truth.

I dare you two to read A Shameful Act.

Fine--when you Turks stay out of our politics.

I strongly recommend Armenians to read the comments posted by other Armenians. Do not limit yourself to this article. Read all the comments left for artciles and videos posted on the Internet for the last couple of months. They all sound 'so sure' about their claims; yet they are contradicting themselves.

You can also listen to the speeches given by the congressmen during the debate for this resolution. They are contradicting themselves as well. They were not even sure about the years the events took place let alone the rest of the argumentation. Only if they had read the resolution...

Do not bother to say whether the Turks are contradicting themsleves because Turks poisition have room for different versions. Yours is a verdict so all of you must have the same 'truth'! Contradicting truth raises suspicion.

I think this is issue for American,France & UK.Definetly not for Turkey and Armenia..We can be blind what is going on in the earth.That is the AIM.

by Craig Chamberlain
Turkish Temper Tantrum
October 20, 2007 01:00 PM EST

If the Armenian genocide of 1915 wasn't a genocide then why are the Turks so enraged whenever the subject comes up? Yes, it's true that the massacre happened during a time of war and that some Turks lost their lives. But the campaign was nothing more than an attempt by the failing Ottoman government to wipe out the Armenians. After all they weren't Turks and they weren't Muslims so why have them around.

Not that the Armenians were the first victims of Turkish agression. For over a century the Turks ruled and brutalized the Balkans, with acts of violence and forcibly taking Christian children from their homes and making them Janisarries in the Ottoman army. (Now all of that is in the past, although if Erdogan has his way the old Turkey might emerge again.)The Greeks who had been living in Asia minor since the bronze age were forcibly expelled by the Turks after world war one. The Kurds had every shred of the culture buried by the Turks(the Turks went so far as to deny that they Kurds even existed, referring to them as "mountain Turks).

In the old days the Turks targeted their victims for religious reasons. Non Muslims were the victims of their violence. After the rise of Ataturk Jihad was replaced by Turkish Chauvinism. Now Turkey is trying to combine the two. Erdogan is trying to create a new Islamism at home and nationalism abroad.

That being said Congress has better things to do. If they want to deal with genocide why not deal with the situation in Darfur, which is ongoing, instead of talking about something that happened in 1915? The answer is that Congress likes grandstanding and chest thumping, they just don't like to take any action.

Instead all they do is agitate a very touchy country, a country that already wants to invade Iraq so they can launch a new campaign against the Kurds(if Erdogan has his way he'll turn the hunt for a few PKK rebels into a new genocide) though it seems after Erdogan has gotten to rattle the saber he's backing down. The situation in Iraq is still dangerous, even after the success of the surge, and we couldn't have allowed the Turks to invade the Kurdish region which happens to be the most stable part of Iraq.

As allies the Turks are valuable, but not irreplaceable. Under Erdogan relations have gotten worse from cool to downright frozen. Still it would be in the interests of the United States to keep the Turks on our side. Congress should abandon the resolution, there's nothing that can be done about it. If they want to stop violence let them stop something that's still ongoing. The Turks are going to be Turks no matter how Congress votes.

JILL @ October 20, 2007 11:47 PM: One of the flaws with your post is that the massacres of the Armenians happened in 1915, and were started in 1895. Another is that there was no 'revolution' by the Armenians; there was simply another temper tantrum by the Sultan and his minions, which was continued by the 'Yung Turks'.

Actually, there are many more flaws in your post, that are far too numerous to go into.

The Armenians fought a war of independence against the Ottomans -- they lost. They expected to be rewarded for aiding the British, French and Russian invasion of the Anatolia, the heartland of the Ottoman Empire -- they were screwed by just those nations. Of course the French should will outlaw to say "This was not genocide" -- otherwise, scholars may in fact talk about their complicity in the Armenian massacres in Cilicia.
And of course the lower House of the Russian parliament should recognize the "genocide" what a small price to pay to the over 50,000 Armenian VOLUNTEEERS from Anatolia who fought in the Russian army, massacering their way through the Caucasus and into Eastern Turkey.

Armenians fought a proud war of liberation and they lost -- now they're trying to get what they didn't get through the front door -- namely the ceation of a GREAT ARMENIAN EMPIRE -- and hey, even on this list, Armenians are crying that their current homeland is a fraction of what they had 2000 years ago (let's go back to redrawing borders everyone).

The Armenian constitution includes land claims against Turkey, the Armenian national symbols feature Mount Ararat across the Turkish border, they still celebrate as heroes their MILITARY COMMANDERS LIKE ANDRANIK, GENERAL DRO AND THE TERRORISTS OF THE ASALA AND JCAG. Please remind me of the names of the JEWISH GENERALS WHO FOUGHT AGAINST THE NAZIS -- don't know of any? Me neither.

Don't take my word -- take those of the proud Armenian :

Boghos Nubar Pasha to The Times of London (January 30, 1919)

Boghos Nubar Pasha was the leader of the Armenian delegation in attendance at the Paris Peace Conference after World War I.

To the Editor of the Times,
Sir, the name of Armenia is not on the list of the nations admitted to the Peace Conference. Our sorrow and our disappointment are deep beyond expression. Armenians naturally expected their demand for admission to the Conference to be conceded, after all they had done for the common cause.
The unspeakable suffering and the dreadful losses that have befallen the Armenians by reason of their faithfulness to the Allies are now fully known. But I must emphasize the fact unhappily known to few, that ever since the beginning of the war the Armenians fought by the side of the Allies on all fronts. Adding our losses in the field to the greater losses through massacres and deportations, we find that over a million out of a total Armenian population of four million and a half have lost their lives in and through the war. Armenia's tribute to death is thus undoubtedly heavier in proportion than that of any other belligerent nation. For the Armenians have been belligerents de facto, since they indignantly refused to side with Turkey.
Our volunteers fought in the French "Legion Entrangere" and covered themselves with glory. In the Legion d'Orient they numbered over 5,000, and made up more than half the French contingent in Syria and Palestine, which took part in the decisive victory of General Allenby.
In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks, whom they held in check until the armistice was signed. Thus they helped the British forces in Mesopotamia by hindering the Germano-Turks from sending their troops elsewhere.
These services have been acknowledged by the Allied Governments, as Lord Robert Cecil recognized in the House of Commons.
In virtue of all these considerations the Armenian National Delegation asked that the Armenian nation should be recognized as a belligerent. Had the recognition been granted, we should now have been admitted, ipso facto, to the Conference, to which even transatlantic States have found access, though having merely broken off diplomatic relations with Germany, without the least sacrifice on their part.
At the moment when the fate of Armenia is being decided at the Peace Conference, it is my duty, as the head of the National Delegation which has no tribute from which its voice can resound, to state once again, in the columns of The Times, the important part played by the Armenians in this frightful war. I wish strongly to urge that the Armenians, having of their own free will cast their lot with the champions of right and justice, the victory of the Allies over their common enemies has secured to them a right to independence.
Believe me, sir, yours very truthfully,
Boghos Nubar

Mr. Ozel;

Here are some other points and authors to consider.

Armenian resolutions alleging genocide came to America along with Armenian terrorism. To date, Armenian terrorists have committed over 265 attacks, killing over 70 and seriously injuring over 700 innocent persons. Since the mid 1980s, Armenian public activists have directed their energy to killing scholarly debate and opinions that the challenge Armenian point of view by harassing and threatening the professional lives of scholars.

The ATAA has joined brave students, teachers and parents in a lawsuit against Massachusetts to stop the censorship of contra-genocide perspectives, and for good reason: the majority of experts on the Ottoman Empire reject the Armenian allegation of genocide, such as Bernard Lewis, Guenther Lewy, Andrew Mango, Avigdor Levy Stanford Shaw, David Fromkin, Norman Stone, Edward Erickson, Heath Lowry, and Justin McCarthy, to list just a few notables. Note the following critical observation by Professor Bernard Lewis:

[T]hat the massacre of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was the same as what happened to Jews in Nazi Germany is a downright falsehood. What happened to the Armenians was the result of a massive Armenian armed rebellion against the Turks, which began even before war broke out, and continued on a larger scale.

But to make this a parallel with the holocaust in Germany, you would have to assume the Jews of Germany had been engaged in an armed rebellion against the German state, collaborating with the allies against Germany. That in the deportation order, the cities of Hamburg and Berlin were exempted, persons in the employment of the state were exempted, and the deportation only applied to the Jews of Germany proper, so that when they got to Poland they were welcomed and sheltered by the Polish Jews. This seems to me a rather absurd parallel”.
April 14, 2002, at the National Press Club on C-Span

Hello World folks!

Why this planet earth has had quite a few of ver worst human-crimes as: mass-murdering, massacres, genocides in several continents spreading from all world corners as: asia, europe, east europe, middle east, to american continent! Many many genocides have known and recorded! While misters Allah, Jesus Christ, Budha, and all the alikes could only prove to themselves and all mankind as the so-called the "n'existe plus!" (means no longer exist in English)!

Who on earth can believe that the so-called: "God" (if exists? in term of human self-misconcepted) can help this sinful and treacherous and murderous human being?
These human-being folks are definitely in love with their everyday treachery-of-all-sorts and murdering-of-all-sorts and born-to-count-money-and-enjoy-sex-and-lie mostly! and only very few of them are living like saints or angels in this filthy and odorous world! (i.e., few are good and too many are bad as proven)
It is quite funny as seeing Billions of world folks have pointed their asses relentlessly into the sky to pray their god everyday!!! but funnily, this world can only have only one way to head into is the destination of destructions of all sorts and murdering of all sorts each others as all seen in the world corners everyday!
Sad! sad! sad! this rotten world! that we all have to live in and smell this bad-smell!
It seems to be that this sinful world can only be taught by few asteroids heading in from the heaven as did before to cleanup this dirty world!

For sure! This world citizens do need to come back to live with their valuable conscience that has been lost for a long time ago!

Thanks

conscience-to-the-world

Christian,

At least when you are accusing someone of wrong doing, you are not doing the same thing that you are accusing others of. If not, that is when you do not have the moral authority to criticize others.

Also, if you are saying cases like Black Water's do not represent America, the Ottoman authority at that time did not approve of the crimes commit by some Turks either. The question we are seeking an answer for is whether the Ottoman authority ordered Turkish soldiers to commit those crimes. No American authority ordered Black Water to kill Iraqis without provocation. But they did it.

If you start a war, there is no way to stop this kind of crimes from happening. The problem with the US is that it is not in the position to criticize the Ottoman Empire because the war waged against the Ottoman Empire was started by other countries.

Turkey is a great country,Turkish are most friendly nation in the earth..we have to show our respect to them.

The idea that moral authority requires sinlessness is seriously flawed. Moral authority flows from the humility of being well aware of your sinfullness. Christ said throwing the 1st stone(punishment) required one to be without sin. He did not establish the same requirement for someone to stand up and call something like ethnic violence a sin.

The current menace in the region which is the threat of Turkish miltary intervension in Kurdistan shows the insecurity of Turkish junta. They want to be the bully of neighberhood...Kurdistan wants peace but is prepared to defend against the criinal manuvers of a criminal junta. Kurdistan has defended itself against invaders..just look at the graveyards of the previous occupiers.....A great Kurdish poet, Abdulla Pashew once wrote anout the huge sacrifices of Kurdistan this way:
Unknown Soldier

When a delegation goes to a country
they lay wreath of flowers on the unknown soldier,
if tomorrow
a delegation comes to our country
and asks me where is the grave of unknown soldier?
I say Sir!
on the banks of any river,
on the rocks of any mountain,
under the tree of any garden,
on the benches of any mosque and any church
under any piece of any sky
over any piece of any land,
in this country of Kurdistan,
do not be scared
just lay your head down
and place your wreath....

The current menace in the region which is the threat of Turkish miltary intervension in Kurdistan shows the insecurity of Turkish junta. They want to be the bully of neighberhood...Kurdistan wants peace but is prepared to defend against the criinal manuvers of a criminal junta. Kurdistan has defended itself against invaders..just look at the graveyards of the previous occupiers.....A great Kurdish poet, Abdulla Pashew once wrote anout the huge sacrifices of Kurdistan this way:
Unknown Soldier

When a delegation goes to a country
they lay wreath of flowers on the unknown soldier,
if tomorrow
a delegation comes to our country
and asks me where is the grave of unknown soldier?
I say Sir!
on the banks of any river,
on the rocks of any mountain,
under the tree of any garden,
on the benches of any mosque and any church
under any piece of any sky
over any piece of any land,
in this country of Kurdistan,
do not be scared
just lay your head down
and place your wreath....

Dear Soli,
I am one of your readers in Turkish and know you are among most civilized Turks when come to political issues. But the fact most of Turkish intelligencia instead of examining modern Turkish history and modern political abnormality they are some how making common cause with authoritarian state defender. Don’t you think it is outrages that citizens of Turkey still don’t have access to the Turkish - Othman history or to the serious crime committed during one party regime starting from 1925. The issue is not politicizing history the issue to recognize the crime committed against humanity and therefore US Senate should be commended for their sensitivity. However, I can’t understand the logic when Turkish government still refuses to recognize 15-20 million living Kurds existence how it will recognize the crime it committed more than 80 years ago The Turkish Kemalist regime is established on denial of reality, xenophobia, and racism. This is the problem. Turks only could be in peace with them and their surrounding if they stand against this abnormality. . But thank you for your contribution to this debate.

I just wonder if sending US marines into that area to take care of the problem would be better. If our Allie, friend, fellow NATO member needs us to, we should do it. We needed a mission for the marines, there it is. Our military job should be to completly quiet the guns of the pkk and others shooting and killing our friends in Turkey. We are friends and forget the stupid resolution, do it another time. We have a relationship to save and nurture. My heart bleeds for those lost in Turkey, for our American soldiers trying to create peace in this world and those who die for peace all over.

2125,

You must be bipolar. You are the one engaging in personal nonsense attacks and then backing down when confronted with logic.

Look at the size of Armenia today compared to that of Ancient Armenia and tell me how it is you think Armenia turned out a winner? On top of that when when 2 out of 3 Armenians living at the time were killed. Do some serious reading before telling me you 'think' this or 'think' that.

I have not attacked anyone else here because even though I don't necessarily agree with them, they have the right to express their views, and I want to hear what they have to say.

You on the other hand don't know, nor do you care to know about this time or region in history. You are out to promote your site and I am done responding to an ill informed person such as yourself.

Andy,

I am not going to get into personal attacks. Let's keep the debate civil if you are genuinely interested in a debate.

I thought that the Armenians sided with the French. Since the French won and forced the Ottoman Empire to cede its territory. So how can you say the Armenians did not win?

The French is still siding with the Armenians today. They still have not given up the fight with the Turks.

to 2125.com,

Even after admitting that you learned about this whole Genocide issue 8 days ago, you still seem to somehow get the confidence to speak on a subject that you know nothing about.

I mentioned about the treaty of sevres, and with your small undeveloped mind you went on to read about it and came to the conclusion that it was a 'prize'? Armenians were not at war with the Turks.

How were Armenians the winnning party? You add nothing to this message board.

Due to your inability to absorb and make sense out of information, you need to stay out of Armenian/Turkish History, and more importantly nobody wants to look at your stupid worthless unintellectual excuse for a website.

It is hard to believe that a winning party was a subject of a genocide.

I have found something interesting. Right after the "genocide", Armenian won a large piece of land in Anatolia from the Ottoman Empire. But the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist after that. So they never got that land.

If they had really got that land, they probably would have considered it a prize they won for the war they fought and would never claim to have been through a genocide.

They could have made any claim of genocide when they won since they did have the power to win such a large piece of land.

John A.: I guess 90+ years is more than long enough to wait for anyone to come to terms with the past. That is why I view the position that Turkey must be given time as nonsense.

It is disingenuous to argue that the only alternative is to bomb Turkey into submission, blah, blah, blah.

Stating a fact is not BOMBING or anything of the sort. Refusing to state a fact because someone's feelings may be hurt is simple nonsense.

dear amviennava,
i was trying to argue that a apology from turkey would have meaning solely if they truly accepted and believed in a genocidal past. And antagonizing them just isn't going to help them come to terms with their past. Because the accusation is coming from us, it makes it seem all the more unjustified to the turks. we're just complicating the matter.
Furthermore, you should also consider that Japan and Germany both lost WWII. They were able to come to terms with their past immediately and were forced to do so by our occupation.
Maybe you'd like for us to bomb turkey in to submission and force the acceptance of the armenian genocide through occupation? Possibly nuke their two largest cities, like we did in japan, or maybe we should carpet bomb their whole country like we did in germany?
I think you're being closed-minded and you'll settle for nothing less than immediate turkish acceptance of the genocide. in which case you're completely disregarding reality.
whats the next step? should we punish the turks for what their great-grandfathers did? seriously, what happened, happened 90-some years ago. i wrote my comments for the sake of rationality, and sensibility in the scheme of todays global environment.
Truth-be-told 99% of our population wouldnt be able to point at armenia on a map, most wouldnt even know it's a country. as a concerned voter i have to question whether or not our congress is paying attention to vital issues that concern the average american. pandering to the armenian vote at the cost of our national security is a questionable act. I have friends in Iraq who are serving our country who's safety is being bartered for an influential minority vote. shame on them for even considering the bill. our national security and the safety of our troops is far more important than an age old vendetta amongst the armenians and turks which will eventually clear it self up. we need to get our priotities straight and figure out our true allegiances. and as an american... so should you.

Apologies...I am the 'anonymous' at 8:28am

john a.: You posted "I believe that the Turks need to be given the opportunity to come to terms with this issue when they are ready to do so."

It would seem that after more than 90 years, Turks should be more than ready 'to do so'. I am sorry, but your argument is just another excuse to hide the truth. We (the US) have condemned the Japanese for mny of their actions prior and during WW2; the Japanese complained, but they are sufficiently mature to recognize that eveil deeds were done. Of course eveyone has condemned the Germans, and frnakly by facing up to the truth the Germans have established themselves as a brave and honorable people.

But for the Turks all we hear is that it is not yet time. Nonsense!

Let's suppose the German government issued a statement denying the Holocaust.

Should one disregard this statement and stay silent in order to preserve the good relations with the Germans?

It's as simple as this.

The current dilemma over the Genocide Bill in Congress has led to much controversy with far reaching domestic and international consequences. Prof. Ozel and Mr. Konstandaras (in the accompanying article) have both argued their respective views rather eloquently and convincingly. Though I’ve found myself in a dilemma because I agree, to a certain point, with both arguments, I’m elated to see that the public is being exposed to both point-of-views. While I agree that politicizing a historical issue from so long ago is terribly unnecessary and unhelpful at a time where so much turmoil is already unstabilizing the region in question, I also agree that a people cannot stay in denial of its past and must come to terms with its history sooner (or presumably later).

My belief is that consideration of this issue needs a closer examination of some key notions that are a part of every nation’s building blocks. Namely national identity and the collective memory of a people. The Turkish identity is a relatively new national identity. Until the fall of the Ottoman Empire the Turkish People identified with Islam and the Ottomans. After the creation of the Turkish Republic in 1923 a new identity was forged and a memory in the historical context of the Turkish people was built-a-new. Needless to say, a nation struggling to throw off its Islamic bonds, fraught with poverty and backwardness, sorely trying to create a modern-western industrial state in a post-world war era wouldn’t have been ready or capable of taking on the responsibility of evaluating their own complicity in the brutal killings of more than a million people. That identity since then hasn’t been reevaluated nor has it been open to discussion. Having said that, reevaluating their national memory is something that the Turks will have to do on their own time. Imposing it from the outside will never have the desired consequence for those who wish to force it upon them.

I believe that the Turks need to be given the opportunity to come to terms with this issue when they are ready to do so. This will happen when Turkish society becomes more open and democratic. I sincerely believe that further democratization and a greater influx of liberal ideas will have the desired effect to open up the debate amongst Turks themselves. Supporters of the Genocide bill should focus their efforts in supporting Turkey’s quest for western democratic values and human rights. Turkey has made significant progress in the past few years and “allies” who wish to see a Turkey, which can face its own past, should be supportive and encouraging at such a time instead of antagonizing them. This face-off per-se may be longer than some people would like, because Turkey also has conflicting identity issues regarding Islam and secularization, which will also need to be dealt with. Therefore this may take longer than some people are willing to wait. In response to the impatient critic I would say that a loyal ally who fought alongside the US in Korea and since then has stuck beside them at every turn and twist deserves and should be given what it needs; a little patience and goodwill.

I will reiterate my position that imposing upon the Turks the need to accept an Armenian Genocide will not have the desired result (if of course that result is to make them accept it). It will only make them more defensive about the subject. A common response amongst Turks is to question the moral authority of the countries that are trying to force them to accept the Armenian genocide. Some of their arguments are as follows: “How dare America judge our past, after dropping nuclear bombs on cities in Japan and carpet bombing Germany, 25 years after the time period that they are referring too?”, “How dare they question our past whilst the controversial human-rights violations in Iraq and Guantanamo?” or in reference to France’s Genocide Denial Bill “How can a country accuse us without coming to terms about the deaths of 2 million Algerians themselves?”. Whether or not this argument has moral legitimacy to it is not for me to say.

My understanding is that the Armenian population around the world (the Diaspora) wants their status of victimization during that time-period to be affirmed by the Turks and want them to apologize for it. I don’t see the point of forcing the Turks, through political and diplomatic means, to apologize for such a horrific event, involving the death of millions. The pain, despair and violence that occurred during that era, whether Turkish or Armenian isn’t a matter open for diplomatic maneuvering or global politicking, it is part of history and it is real. An ensuing artificial apology, which isn’t heartfelt, would be an insult to the dead and that isn’t what they deserve. By forcing this matter and politicizing it we are doing a disservice to the peoples who tragically died so long ago. Those who argue that most of the survivors will soon be dead have a very twisted view of the matter. An apology and acceptance shouldn’t be about self-justification for the survivors and their descendants or ethnic-brethren. We should hope that the tragic death of millions will somehow change the way a whole people perceive themselves and in retrospect lead to greater peace and multi-ethnic harmony in the future.

Having said all this, I will note that I haven’t specified whether or not I believe that the killings of more than a million Armenians during that era should be deemed an act of genocide. Nor will I divulge that information, within the context of this argument. Therefore I have referred to the killings with terms such as “the tragic death of millions” and such.
Millions died during that time period, whether they were Armenian, Turkish, Greek, Circassian, Bulgarian, Kurdish, Russian or Arab makes little difference. The deaths were equally horrific and senseless. And they should all be mourned.

In another blog I read this and wanted to share you all:
Thank you Matt for this:
Matt :
I think the more important question is Why Armenians, Greeks and some few Kurds stillhold grudge against Turks at this moment of history ? If you can give the answer to that question you'll understand why Armenians still trying to get Turks down.

If you know a little bit about Middle East region and have been reading and watching the developments of the last several hundred years, you'll easily notice that grudges are held for so long. The Middle Eastern mind set is not as rational as the Western mindset. Pride, self importance, prestige is much more important than welfare, peace and etc, especially for illiterate parts of the population.In some of these countries you can even get beaten or killed just because you didn't let the other car pass on a junction. If you think this is a joke, then I'll send you many newspaper headlines about this, but you need to be able to understand the language.

This situation is getting better with education and eventhough Islam suggests to be kind to all other humanbeings, this is the situation. One can also say most mediterranean countries have a similar situation including Italy,Spain, Portugal evcenthough these countries are richer and have relatively better education systems. People are quick tempered and can hold grudges longer.

So the answer lies in between somewhere, I mean most Greeks accuse Turks to be the only reason that they are not a big country now, they don't own parts of Anatolia that they used to have, especially Istanbul. Armenians blame Turks for their current situation as if everybody else in that region have a prosporeous life and some few Kurds, I say few Kurds because as you know Kurds share the same religion,to a greater extent same language and same history with Turks, they lived together in the last 1000 years and many Kurdish descendant became prime minister or predisent in Turkey. So only few separatist Kurds blame Turks as the sole reason that they don't have a state of their own regardless of the impact of other Arabic states, Iran and Syria in that matter. Turkey is the best target for these groups, because it's not like Iran,Syria nor Russia who are not listening to anyone in the world except themselves. Turkey is trying to find a delicate balance between Islam and secularism, Turkey is trying to find a delicate balance between West and East, Turkey is trying to find a delicate balance between the imperial past where it could dictate much of it's will and now operating in a global world where there is a need for consensus in many things.

That's the reason, Armenians and some others can intimidate Turks this much, because these people(Turks) are trying to do some good stuff. What if Turkey becomes a dictatorship, who would listen to Armenia ? Turkey needs help in her quest to West not bashing like this.

Many people understand this in western countries and do whatever they can to help Turkey, but some don't get this. They hold this grudge against Turks for their imperial history, like Armenians and Greeks. Lately Greece understood that it's not a good way to hold grudges against Turks and many things can be solved inside EU and they started showing friendship. If anybody knows Turks since they are an eastern minded country with a target to go to west would know that Turks don't bend down with power, this is a prideful nation. Armenian diaspora is not helping anyone and they are actually destroying the current ties between Turkey and Armenia. Armenia is one of the poorest country in the region and Turkey could help it a lot if there weren't these problems.

But again Armenians are Armenians and they don't have rational minds, grudge is grudge and it had to be taken from Turks at all costs. The eastern mindset again. :(

Many historians say that the events took place between 1915 to 1918 cannot be called as "genocide" as there were the Armenian militia fighting together with Russians and attacking Turks. So why can't we find a middle way in between these 2 countries to settle up their disputes but instead trying to make the problem worse by taking these claims to the senate, voting it. Are all senators historians ? If one day Turks prove that it was not a genocide wouldn't you be ashamed of what you have voted and accepted ?

Besides when you interfere in relations between 2 groups for the favor of one than you make them more aggressive and they don't want to talk and agree upon any issue, you spoil them. For the last 10 years Turkish government repeatedly has called Armenians to form a joint committee to examine the events and Armenians said "NO", well why would they say yes ??? While they can get many countries" support to claim it a "genocide". Even if they already know it was not a "genocide" because this interference of other countries now it's too late for them to go back and revisit their intentions, acts.

Ottoman Empire was in a war and lost many more people than what Armenians lost even in that region and also to some extent they were killed by Armenians. So how can you call this a "genocide" making it a same thing that happened in WW2 in Germany. I'm adding Bernard Lewis' thoughts around this issue to the bottom so you can see the same thinking there as well.

One another point is unfortunately as far as there are some big countries using these minorities( you need to know some more history to understand how Armenians were used and how Kurds are used at the moment by big powers) they will behave like childs. In WW2 25 M Russians died and I don't see any Russian complaining about this, because if you go to war you either expect to kill or die, than you don't complain about the enemy unless they killed you with some banned weapons. But these small ethnic groups, they like to have their own states and in the time of imperial collapsing they have a dream of getting their own states, some gets it, some don't, and if they don't then instead of thinking what went wrong they start whining like kids, but nobody asks them how many people they killed, what were they doing together with Russians and backstabbing Turks. What should have Turks done ? Give their land to Armenians without fighting ? If you know guerrilla terrorists a little bit you would know that they are hiding behind the innocent people, they shoot and when you search for them they go inside innocent people's houses, so can someone pls tell me how can you fight against these people ?? Think about the war timeframe and these militias, some fight with you face to face and some just behind the innocent people, somebody need to take the innocent people out of the way and that's what Ottoman's tried to do but they couldn't do it successfully and many people died unfortunately while they were deported from the country. Again ottoman was collapsing and they didn't have necessary means to accomplish the tasks in a better way, but this cannot be called genocide. If Ottomans wanted to kill all Armenians they could have done it hundreds of years ago and much easier. Turks never killed women, kids and elderly people. They only fought against people who fought against them. Turks are a prideful nation and they are prideful about their army and their way of fighting and it's first of all forbidden and unethical for Turks to kill any women, kids and elderly.

If Turks wanted to exterminate a nation they could have done much earlier, if they had done that for example there wouldn't be Greeks today, there wouldn't be Serbs today, there wouldn't be Armenians today. They didn't do this.

Turks have saved Jewish from Spain in 1492 and had always a religious and ethnical tolerance. I'm not saying this alone, you can read this in many history books, so one becomes curious why then Armenians.

The answer is again same, it was just a fight in between 2 groups but not a genocide.

Here is what Bernard Lewis thinks :

Statement of Professor Bernard Lewis
Princeton University
Distinguishing Armenian Case from Holocaust
April 14, 2002
C-SPAN2
www.bookstv.org
Question: “The British press reported in 1997 that your views on the killing of one million
Armenians by the Turks in 1915 did not amount to genocide and in this report in the Independent
of London, says that a French court fined you one frank in damages after you said there was no
genocide. This obviously triggered a debate in Israel where this quoted article (Moderator cuts
in and asks him to ask his question as their running out of time). My question is, sir, have your
views changed on this whether the killing of one million Armenians amounts to genocide and
your views on this judgment?”
Bernard Lewis responds: “This is a question of definition and nowadays the word "genocide"
is used very loosely even in cases where no bloodshed is involved at all and I can understand the
annoyance of those who feel refused. But in this particular case, the point that was being made
was that the massacre of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was the same as what happened
to Jews in Nazi Germany and that is a downright falsehood. What happened to the Armenians
was the result of a massive Armenian armed rebellion against the Turks, which began even
before war broke out, and continued on a larger scale.
Great numbers of Armenians, including members of the armed forces, deserted, crossed the
frontier and joined the Russian forces invading Turkey. Armenian rebels actually seized the city
of Van and held it for a while intending to hand it over to the invaders. There was guerilla
warfare all over Anatolia. And it is what we nowadays call the National Movement of Armenians
Against Turkey. The Turks certainly resorted to very ferocious methods in repelling it.
There is clear evidence of a decision by the Turkish Government, to deport the Armenian
population from the sensitive areas. Which meant naturally the whole of Anatolia. Not including
the Arab provinces which were then still part of the Ottoman Empire. There is no evidence of a
decision to massacre. On the contrary, there is considerable evidence of attempt to prevent it,
which were not very successful. Yes there were tremendous massacres, the numbers are very
uncertain but a million nay may well be likely.
The massacres were carried out by irregulars, by local villagers responding to what had been
done to them and in number of other ways. But to make this, a parallel with the holocaust in
Germany, you would have to assume the Jews of Germany had been engaged in an armed
rebellion against the German state, collaborating with the allies against Germany. That in the
deportation order the cities of Hamburg and Berlin were exempted, persons in the employment
of state were exempted, and the deportation only applied to the Jews of Germany proper, so that
when they got to Poland they were welcomed and sheltered by the Polish Jews. This seems to me
a rather absurd parallel

Who does America think it is important to pass moral judgement on a country and a people whose granparents weren't even born when this unhappy event took place. The arrogance and complete hypocrisy is so obvious if you are not American. If there is any country in the world that does not deserve the "moral high ground" it is the U.S.
When has the U.S. ever apologised for destroying people and governments? The Allende coup? In Guatemala? Central America in the 70's? Why has the U.S. never apologised to Vietnam? Do you think the U.S. in 10 years will appreciate Turkey or Iran or Russia passing a bill that condems the U.S. for the destruction Iraq?
I am getting very tired of America's complete lack of respect for other people and it's misguided notion that it's political system is the best and must be emulated. Why can't they leave people alone clean their own messy house.

I wish Mr. Ozel talks about the politicians and the military circles in Turkey that write their version of historical distortions. He certainly enjoys the freedom of speech in US. Unfortunately, he can't claim the same for Turkey. HRANT DINK was murdered ruthlessly by Turkish politicians who couldn’t get rid off the article 301, and who couldn’t create a democratic environment. It is easy for him to criticize the politicians in US, yet he enjoys the freedom of speech, religion, etc… Unfortunately, he doesn't have the background to speak about the politicians in Turkey who had made the decision to massacre more than 2 millions of Armenians. Or, perhaps, he is afraid of talking about them. He can certainly leverage the so called Turkish archives to find out about Armenians, their confiscated properties, their raped women, murdered children, their culture, there history. I can even suggest that he should start from the airbase in Incirlik. He might be surprised to find out about the real owners of the land. Mr Ozel should also learn the fact that the politicians create the history; unfortunately he doesn’t have much to defend on that about Turkish politicians. Mr. Ozel makes the argument that historians should discuss the topic. I guess he doesn’t realize that most prominent historians have already discussed this topic in and out, called the Armenian genocide as the factual event.
I praise Nancy Pelosi’s courage to stand up for the moral values of the United States of America.

After I read all your comments,I'd like to add something too.
I'm from Turkey and came to this country like 5 years ago. I met alot of Turkish Armenians also my Greek-Cypriot fiance here.
Neither Turkish Armenians or Us don't like to make any argument about this history but all others.
There is no good come from this subject to any side. Like Mr. Soli says,this is belong to historians, not people that only know from what they hear around or read from couple articles.Historians from both side should sit together and discuss under UN roof like Turkey offered. If Armenians are right,so they should not back up and consider this offer and open their all archives to all historians( Turkey offered even their millitary archives for this subject) so we all can learn what really happened.
After all this ,if Armenians are right and this is genocide so Turkey should apologize what happened but if they are not, so Armenians should stop this and all the other countries that recognized this Armenian killing as a genocide should apologize from Turkey for not searching the truth and triying to labeling Turkey with genocide...

Last thing, to user with Armenian Genocide nick named;
I'm from Hemsin. There are still people in Hemsin who can talk Armenian and Turkish.We live in harmony although you put them into hard posiion with stiring history.

Hello World!

In this case, it is so simple to make a correct conclusion, even millions with their biased minds could react fooly agains you as by following the truthful and scientific format/procedure as suggested below:

No any early "PRO" or "CON"! no any early "CONDONE" or "CONDEMN"! or fallen into a naive "BEING BIASED FOR PERSONAL REASONS"! but when a "conclusion" or a "judgement" or a "comdemn" or "condone" issue can be made, it should be based absolutely scientifically and truthfuly and unbiasedly! then you with your clear and unbiased mind just feel free to go ahead and sticking with your faithful CONSCIENCE to judge a fact, a real problem, a crime, a world mistake, or a human sin, a mass-murdering, a genocide, etc., and you can immediately and comfortably conclude clearly and precisely as that it is Right or Wrong!. In other words, this is simply a pure, scientific way for judging anything properly, such as a problem or fact without making human dumb mistake at all! and you also should forget all sorts of "crying fooled" that may be on your way! to cheer you! or even ripping you aparts! by human behaviour as usual!

For simplity, the answer as "YES" or "No" to the question: "The U.S Congress is going to pass one of those resolutions condemning another country for its pasts: this time, Turkey for Armenian massacres" that it can be frankly and correctly to answer as:

1/ During the past, if Turkey did commit its world criminal as massacred en-mass Armenians or genocide, then Turkey must be treated as the criminal state as the answer is: "YES" for complying with the world conscience and world justices and laws and orders! and it is absolutely fair to all!

2/ Otherwise, if Turkey didn't commit a such very serious human crime as massacre or mass-murdering or genocide then no one has any reason to condemn Turkey at all! and it is damned fair to all as well!
And that's all! and it's 100% fair to all concerned folks! as Turkey and Armenia and all these folks!
Pls. do not condone crimes of any reasons! and all judgements must be fair and frank and scientifically and all concerned folks must behave as civilized, unbiased citizens and nations no matter what!
In addition, and importantly, no one have enough times to think back and forth for a fact or world problem! such as with this issue! due to this world has many more bigger problems and are much much more urgent! as world problems than this one!

Make senses? world folks? Also, pls do simplify thing(s)or problem (s) more than making a thing, subject, a problem, etc., to become too complicated to solve and lose too much efforts as it should not be! while it or they canbe solved wisely and simply as it or they should!

Thanks

conscience-to-the-world

Andy,

I just learned about this 8 days ago when the news broke about the bill passed by the Foreign Committee. I have not got the chance to do a through research myself. I believe most Americans do not know much better than I do, including the politicians who have voted for it and those prepare to vote for it. After all, we can only have access to limited materials. And we are prone to coming to a conclusion based on our knowledge of history and life experience, which can be biased somewhat because of the time and space difference between us and the Ottoman Empire.

Being able to come to a conclusion does not mean that we have the truth. Since the truth of this event is so difficult to attain, why don't we just leave it as a guess. There are plenty of ways for us to correct the past and build a better future. For example, you could try to find out where your great grandfathers lived before they were killed. Asked the Turkish government to pay for that land. I think they would be happy to do so if you don't ask the whole world to label them as murderers.

By the way, I am not just advertising my web site. I am inviting you to share all of my thoughts on this subject as well as other subjects on my web site.

Hello World!
In this case, it is so simple to make correct conclusion even millions with biased minds could react agains you as following the truthful and scientific format/procedure as below:

No any early "PRO" or "CON"! no eearly "CONDONE" or "CONDEMN" or fallen into a naive "BEING BIASED FOR PERSONAL REASONS"! but shouldd be scientific and truthful and unbiased then just sticking with your CONSCIENCE to judge a fact, a real problem, a crime, a world mistake, or a human sin, etc., and comfortably conclude clearly as it is Right or Wrong!. This is a scientific way for judging a problem or fact without making mistake at all and forget all crying fooled that may be on the way!:

For simplity, the answer as "YES" or "No" to the question:"The U.S Congress is going to pass one of those resolytions condemning another country for its pasts: this time, Turkey for Armenian massacres can be frankly and correctly to answer as:

1/ If during the past, Turkey committed the world criminal as massacres en mass Armenians then Turkey must be treated as the criminal state as the answer is: "YES" for complying with the world conscience and world justices and laws and orders!
otherwise, if Turkey didn't commit a very serious human crime as massacre then no one has any reason to condemn Turkey! That all and fair to all Turkey and Armenia and all these folks!
Pls. do not condonne crimes of any reasons! and all must be fair and frank and must behave as civilized citizens and nations no matter what! and more over, no one have enoght times to think back and forth due to this world has many more urgent problems than this one!

Make senses world folks?

Thanks

ience to judge criminals!"

I agree this is a stupid action for the Congress to promote; it is mystifying actually who would agitate for this! Presumably, the Democrats unable to stop the murderous bums in the WH; are casting about for someone who they can castigate. I guess dead is a safe target!

Oddly, this was an alliance of Democrats and Republicans...some Armenian must have some big bucks to buy that many Congressman!