First//The topic of this debate is Iran and not Islam and Arab bashing by the same zionists who keep repeating Ready-To-Post basless and unfounded lies about Islam every where to divert attention from the real issue:Israel's Nuclear Aresnal so it can keep the Palestinian people in a perptual state of APARTHEID;I suggest we focus on the issue at hand so we can have an informed and useful deabte and ignore distractors and propogandaists who abuse this form.

Second//Mr.Ozel,your article is an excellent Catalyst for open debate on Iran in order to avoid another disaster. Let me make a few points:
1// It's mind boggling that there is no media focus on the only nuclear threat in the Middle East: Israel, the only "state" in the world without a constitution and without recognized borders-creping borders that extend as far as the range of Israeli tanks; an apartheid militaristic state with a world record of a 60-year old brutal and humiliating occupation of Palestine and Palestinians. Israeli boots has stompoed over every UN resolution since its illegitimate creation in 1947-including the resolution that was coerced to create it by devouring most the part assigned for the Arab State which Israel never allowed to come into being.

Fearful of India's nukes, Pakistan was forced to build and test nuclear weapons as a Deterrent-MAD-and it's working. Similarly Iran is going in that direction to check Israel’s ever expanding hegemony and aggression in the region and it's trigger happy Generals; Iran does not occupy any other state's land or people. Considering the blind and unquestionable US support to consolidate and perpetuate Israeli hegemony, militancy and expansionism in the region, it’s therefore the desire of all Arab states in the region to acquire nuclear weapons or choose to endure the humiliation of Israeli occupation in Palestine and hegemony in the region;
2// There is no risk of Iran or any Arab country acquiring nuclear weapons except to deter Israeli creeping occupation and hegemony in the ME; in fact Israel's nuclear arsenal was and continues to consolidate it's intransigence, belligerency and over confidence to the extent that it sees no incentive or disincentive-deterrence-for a peace settlement. If Iran, Iraq or any other Arab state acquires nuclear weapons, it would be a strategic contribution to a peaceful settlement of the Arab-Israeli conflict: it will work as a deterrent-MAD or Mutual Assured Destruction-which clearly worked during 50 years during the cold war.
3// Also, how could Iran use nuclear weapons when half of the population of historic Palestine are Palestinians Arabs-not to speak of neighboring sates Arab population including heavily Shia population in south Lebanon. True Ahmadi Najad is not a PR genius, but he does not really rule Iran-he is more a big mouth than a madman and will not be as mad as President Truman who nuked Japan in full day light of history.
The Arab people have no reason to fear Iran-who is not going to nuke Mecca;only some pupet Arab regimes are pressured to form along with Isreal a pathetic so called "Sunni"axis-it's news to me that Israel has suddenly become a sunni state!!!

After all, no group of people promoted war on Iraq than AIPAC and Israel, a fact that is well known even to the clueless. Neutralizing the impact of Israel and its zealot supporter for another world class adventure-this time on Iran-will surely pull the “Persian” carpet from under Bush's feet and his mad drive to launch another disastrous war in the ME.

This can be done effectively by separating and clearly demarcating US interests from Israeli interests which are essentially mutually exclusive.

No problem Chris those Bible verses are absolutely correct and good. The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all nations may execute judgment on all lawbreakers including you as He wishes. People who shake their fist at God and deny Him who made them deserve His judgment. Those who worship false gods like the one invented by Muhammad also deserve God’s judgment. But God is gracious and loving. He has provided the sacrifice of His only begotten Son of God for whoever would repent and believe including you and all Muslims. I am glad that my God hates and judges unrighteousness. If He did not He would be unrighteous. Chris do you wish to sit in judgement of God? Do you think you are more righteouse then Him?

Lying in Islam
Also, mainstream Muslim theologians have explained that religious deception is taught by the Qur’an itself: “Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them” (Qur’an 3:28). In other words, don’t make friends with unbelievers except to “guard yourselves from them”: pretend to be their friends so that you can strengthen yourself against them. The distinguished Qur’anic commentator Ibn Kathir explains that in this verse “Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers.” However, exempted from this rule were “those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda said, 'We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, 'The Tuqyah [or taqiyya, the shielding of what is in one's heart] is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.'"

If Iran wants nuclear weapons, let them have them, and let them enjoy the consequences of having them. They will be putting their people in the shadow of nuclear retaliation. Consider: The US policy towards Iran is essentially as a poster child for the fears of a nuclear Arab nation. Ironically, President Musharrif narrowly avoided this because his nation's development of nuclear weaponry was a specific counter to India's development of nuclear weapons, and he's nominally non-threatening to US interests.

Iran wants to be threatening, but they're playing a shell game. Why else would they so loudly proclaim their nuclear ambitions with its "peaceful" nature as a subtitle? Whether they intend to pursue weapons of this nature is moot. Right now, they're forcing the issue, and realistically, they could be forcing it in a purely civilian manner, in an attempt to bring the US to the negotiating table on their terms. I can almost believe Iran's intentions are civilian in nature, because of the cavalier cockiness being used to promote it. If they did want to use their nuclear capabilities in a deliberately aggressive manner, why would they so loudly broadcast their possession of the precursor technology? Why not wait until a device was ready and announce their entry into the nuclear age through a bomb being delivered or dropped on Tel Aviv?

They can spin this any way they like it, but its a pretty blatant baiting attempt to draw the US out. Either diplomatically or militarily. With luck, they'll be later than 2008 getting their reactor online and the intelligent response from a future US president will be quiet tolerance of Iranian nuclear power sitting squarely in the bull's eye of a 30 megaton response to any silliness that gets traced back to them.

Someone who knows:
The arab armies have never been defeated by Persian armies. It was the islamic army of the caliphate which did what nobody else could do in 2000 years. Defeat the persians and assimilate it into Islam.
Forget a few verses from the Old Testement of bloodthirstiness? A few verses? The Old Testement is full of warlike verses. The Koran has maybe 9 verses that must be taken into context. The Koran has a full 7 page Sura just on the Virgin Mary. And repeats Jesus name in respect more then 20 times. Get your facts straight. And quit watching Fox channel.
Islam is bloodthirsty? Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, ww1 and ww2. vietnam. Iraq. Latin america wars. Ireland. scotland. Do you want me to go on about christian wars?
And in case you didnt know, the muslems also wait for Jesus to return to save the world. Get some of your facts straight please

Chris. Do you really think that throwing out a few bloodthirsty verses from the Old Testament makes for an excuse of 1400 years of bloodthirstyness on the part of Islam. People who are truly Christians got over the bloodthirsty part many centuries ago. We live for the words of the New Testament, of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savour, the Son of God who died so that the sins of Mankind would be forgiven for those who believe in Him. Are you trying to say that we should give Islam a "pass" for its 1400 years of bloodthirstyness? I don't think so. Christians believe that to love as God commanded us to, we should be willing to give our own lives so that others may live, not committing homicide bombings for the promises of the fleshly pleasures in "Paradise" that have been denied by religious authorities. If the Arabs truly want peace, then stop the killing. Perhaps they should learn a lesson from the American civil rights movement. The people who detonated bombs were the losers. The people who peacefully marched and tried to make a positive change in society...a change for equality for ALL people....they were the winners.

If Iran truly is only interested in nuclear power for peaceful purposes, then throw open the gates...allow free and unfettered inspections of all of their nuclear related facilities. If you have nothing to hide, then quit acting like you do. As far as the comments of the so-called unfairness of Israel perhaps having nuclear weapons. When was the last time that Israel used or threatened to use nuclear weapons to commit genocide against its neighbors? I'm sure that silence will be deafening. It is far more likely that if Israel does have nuclear weapons, then the deterrent effects of these weapons have saved millions of lives in the long run by preventing all out war in the Middle East for over a quarter century. Even more so than Israel, perhaps the Arabs have a great deal to worry from a nuclear Iran, especially with the history of Persians defeating Arab armies on the battlefield repeatedly over the millenia?

Man created God. Man Created weapons. Man will destory itself with both.

Any discussion of foreign policy decisions(including military action) towards Iran must start with this simple premise: Iran will eventually get nuclear weapons; there is nothing we can do to prevent this.

If world leaders were to actually speak their mind regarding a nuclear Iran, they would most likely admit that Iran probably already has at least one nuclear weapon. This hypothetical weapon was most likely purchased from the former soviet union on the black market, as are probably others in the hands of equally unstable nations.

What we do have influence over is what kind of government a future Iran will have. The current theocracy in Iran is very unpopular amongst the people. Over 70% of voting Iranians want democractic reforms designed to bring about a western style democracy. As evidence of this just review the latest parlimentary elections; the hardliners represented by Amenidiajan (spelling?) lost power in dramatic fashion.

However, if we attack Iran, the above internal picture will change drastically. The reform minded Iranians, a current large majority, will be driven into the hands of the fundamentalist clerics who will be able to say legitimately "we told you so!"

The Iranian people are a proud people and deservedly so. Their culture has been around for several mellinia and Persia was once a regionally dominant world power. If attacked, they will unite behind the clerics as Iranians, not muslims, and any differences regarding a choice of government will evaporate.

What we then will have accomplished is ensuring that Iran remains a theocracy, governed by about 15 fundamentalist clerics, for at least the next 30 to 40 years. And by then they will doubtless have tested at least one nuclear device and most likely many more.

Our real choice is this: do we want a nuclear Iran with a western style democracy, or do we want a nuclear Iran with a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy? Make no mistake; by attacking Iran we are choosing the later.

I agree with the world that it would be preferalble to find a peaceful solution with Iran. But under no circumsatnces will I get complacent aabout that countries intetions and threat to my nation the United States and the free people of the world. And under no circumstances will I rathere accept a nuclear Iran than go to war. If diplomacy fails, than I choose WAR.

Anonymous (February 21, 2007 7:32 PM): An interesting post. It is true that Christians are being persecuted throughout the Middle East. The Copts as you mentioned, but in Israel & the occupied territories as well. Typically the lot of Christians there worsens whenever the 'West' decides to save someone. Iraq's Christian population (almost 10% of the population before we 'liberated' them) has been particularly hurt by our (US) action.

But as you point out in the rest of the post, persecuting those of a different faith or belief of any sort is a human trait. We have ALL done it, and we ALL do it.

Christ Killer: You have the wrong religion. the Jews were accused of doing that, not the Muslims. (I hope everyone can recognize sarcasm, and not just go off on tangents).

To Old Atlantic:

You are unnecessarily aggressive in expressing your opinion. Anyone from Turkeya opines about world affairs, you immediately tell them that you are not allowed to express your opinion because you are from Turkeya. This is sad. The Armenian genocide is quite painful and an unfortunate event in world history but it has its own place and time for discussion. But you are in no position to claim higher moral ground.

Even if you do indulge aimlessly into history, do mention Turkeya's better treatment of its subjects under Ottoman empire.

Back to Sole Ozel's comments, I wholeheartedly agree when he says [Take a Nuclear Iran Over An Incompetent Invader]. Why is it that US interest always has to override the interest and aspirations of other nations? In light of history, no one can attach more weight to US interest in any measure, be it moral, economics or else. We don't have to talk about event involving Mosadeq of Iran, nor about forcing the Saudis to not move its petro dollars from US banks. Not to mention US cuddling with Saddam. Not to mention destroying Afghanistan for its own interest in nurturing religious fanaticism there. And how about Vietnam?

The list goes on and US is no where near standing the moral high ground. US is just better in setting the rules and tone.

As a third step (the first was killing Christ, the second was drinking the blood of Christian babies) toward Christian cleansing, let's start with Old Atlantic. I'm sure he would be happy to follow in his "true" father's footsteps.

Hey guys. There are plenty of christians being persecuted in the Middle east. Do not forget the Coptic christians in Egypt. But you must not forget, muslems are persecuted also. Chechnya, palestine, jail in america with no habeas corpus. Need i go on? the point is, humans are disgusting. No body should persecute anybody.throughout history, people have killed for religion or against religion. we are disgusting beings. at least animals kill for food. we kill for stupid sh@#.
Please stop quoting the Koran. If you cant read the whole thing, dont quote a single passage. Yes, non muslems were made to pay a tax or jizya. But it was very cheap and it helped pay for the muslem army to defend everybody. And it worked. Prophet muhammad also married a christian. Mary the coptic. Muslems dont hate anybody. Good ones anyways. Majority of muslems are good people. 1.3 billion and only an estimated 10000 terrorists.
If you look at Western world jails, you will find way more murderers then youll find in the Middle east. Most wars started by Christians and everybody knows it. You dont see muslems going around saying the Bible is barbaric do u?
Old atlantic doesnt have an opinion. It is strictly racist views he has.
Bomb Iran? what for? and America cant even do it if they wanted to. They are too busy with Iraq. Another muslem country destroyed by the peaceful christians. Iran is not Iraq. Persians fight for fun. Not religion. Romans, one of the worlds greatest empire, had a hard time beating them. Only people to really beat the persians, Islamic empire. Irony.
Iran will kick anybody's butt. Invading them will even turn their securalists into suicide bombers.Quit invading countries for the sake of Israel. Quit protecting Israel. And please quit giving them my tax money please. Leave Iran alone.

BIG DUDE, Wrong, we are not! But we are in days of censorship by socialist news-media! On both sides of the pond...

I guess we are back to those YANKEE GO HOME days, aren't we?

Here's something interesting.
On Herman Melville America's beloved author.
"His outraged focussed on the islands of the Pacificwhere the 'civilised white man' whom he brands 'the most ferocious animal on the face of the earth' was using warships and missionaries to enslave the so-called 'savages' and 'barbarians'.
"Let us not forget that Melville first made his mark as one of the boldest anti-imperialist writers of the century."
"Melville reminded us that that America is about to transform into a world empire resembling the British Empire against which it had rebelled".
In Billy Budd he tells" the story of and the consequence of unbridled militarism and imperialism which obliterates the rights of man",not only in the occupied lands but also among the people forced to do the fighting (Vietnam Vet ask any PTSD counsellor).
(taken from H.Bruce Franklin Rutgers University Professor of English and American literature)

It amazes me how Bush and America, invoking the pretense of ridding the world of "Islamo-fascism," are in fact doing everything conceivable to bolster and strengthen Islamic militants the world over.

Pakizztani please refer to Wren and Martin before you post again
Older Atlantic Stop branding anyone as a Israeli Which is a somewhat diplomatic way of calling him something else .He is entitled to his opinions which are valid accoriding to me. Act now before those morons in tehran and Riyadh get their hands on Nuke technology adn then balckmail the world.I m sure your pacifist attitude will vapourise when that happens. Let history judge Bush and America

diyar Ploggers
Why ij ther so much hate in this world thingk of bbebal's whose life haj just pegun , bhy bhy bhy should they cry phor the mijsteaks of our leaderj They crying Mamma Mamma bhat hab i done to dejerve thij bhorld? I dont wanna die sometimej i wijh i ws not born at all. Glopal warming increajing From the China ind the India and we are basting bandwidth depating if Muslimns killed Xtians or vice versa

Old Atlantic seems to prefer fighting and war. So I conclude that he is either an Israeli or truly ill informed, or both.

That is, if for no other reason, because the incompetence of the attacker is already on full display in Afghanistan and Iraq.

This statement is only partially true. Iraq is indeed a disaster, but Afhhanistan was and continues to be a success for the United States.
Despite some 65,000 killed or captured enemy comatants in Iraq, the country continues to slide out of control due to the idiotic planning and policies of the Bush Administration and the Pentagon.

In Afghanistan however, the Taliban and Al Qaeda have been dealt crippling blows. Some 20,000 Al Qeada/Taliban have been killed in the past 5 years by US and NATO forces. The Taliban continues to try a make a comeback, but they have been trying that for 5 years and every time we have beat them back. Afghanistan isn't perfect, but most "unbiased" observers would say it is a far cry from the chaos of Iraq. To bad Mr. Ozel falls into the "biased" catagory.

Kill Men, Women, and Children

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

So much for the "peaceful" religion:

A few quotes from the Old Testament:

Lets pray the US prevails in the conflict currently undertaken to prevent the fanatical Muslim hordes from taking over this planet.

History bears evidence of the attempts of radical wackos who have tried, and at times prevailed. It wasn't the US who flew airplanes into buildings, murdering thousands of civilians of all races, creeds and religions.

World, wake up. You are under siege from those who wish to either convert you, or, murder you and your family.

For all the Europeans who feel that the US is a threat. Are you kidding? Where would you be today without the military power of the US.
You had better pray to whatever God you have that the US maintains it's current posture in the fight against terror, oppression and demi god dictators around the world. You may not agree with the tactics, and sometimes they may not be effective, or maybe even just plain wrong. But, the fight must go on, changing tactics as necessary.

I am PROUD to be an American, I am proud to have served my country and I will continue to support my government in it's efforts to protect both our citizens and those in other countries from from those who wish murder in the name of their "imaginary friend", "god" or whatever reason they may have.

I'm a Kraut and I stand with the United States of America - the greatest Nation ever! If someone is against America, then he is against me too!

Here in Germany, and also in Europe, the NAZIS and Commmunists are still alive, therefore, it's no wonder, that anti-Americanism is wide spreaded across Europe. The reason is, is that the news-media are censored, so the people do not know, what's really going on. All news they get are one-sided.

However, Americans should give a big nothing about what the European hardheads are talking, because it's part of the NAZI-Propaganda here in Europe, especially here in Germany. In addition, Europe is a safe haven for terrorists.

America is doing great and there's nothing wrong with it! Iran is a dictatorship and the people over there cannot wait to get liberated. So what?

Thanks to the finest and brightest men and women of the United States - Our Troops!

Support the Troops at www.AmericaSupportsYou.mil

God bless America, Our Troops and their Families!

"No Arab Christians were ever persecuted in Arab lands." -- Sama Adnan

I can't believe I'm reading that nonsense.

Just look at Sudan, where it doesn't matter if you are Muslim or Christian, if you are Black you can be killed or enslaved.

Just look at Saudi Arabia, where a Christian can be jailed for even possessing a Bible, and Jew is forbidden to set foot.

If you want to appologize for Islam, at least don't use such transparent falsehoods.

Islam in it's radical form is the most cancerous disease of modern society. I mean, can you imagine the Methodists killing the Lutherans over a point of doctrine? This is what the Shia/Sunni conflict boils down to. I don't know of any Protestants wanting to kill the Pope but yet among radical Muslims, they can't live with any difference of opinion of descent or doctrine. F***ing insane!

Let's all go back to about 680 A.D., wipe our rear's with our left hand and kiss our a**es goodbye! If only the following were carried out in modern times:

Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) sent a message to the monks of Saint Catherine in Mount Sinai:

Muhammad says this:
"This is a message written by Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, far and near, we are behind them. Verily, I defend them by myself, the servants, the helpers, and my followers, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be changed from their jobs, nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they (Christians) are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, this is not to take place without her own wish. She is not to be prevented from going to her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation is to disobey this covenant till the Day of Judgment and the end of the world." (Reference: Muslims and Non-Muslims Face to Face by Dr Ahmad H Sakr, isbn: 0911119-31-9)

There are so many people that seem to have forgotten about september 11th.
I have not forgotten.
Most have forgotten about the hostage crisis in Iran.
I have not forgotten.
Knowing full well of the great disagreement this statement will generate, I hold strongly to this belief...The US has never been guilty of backing any type of terrorism...ever. I am speaking of the cowardly types of agression that radical muslims support wholeheartedly...like the taking of hostages...or blowing up airplanes with innocent women and children aboard...or walking into a crowded marketplace wired with some explosives...on and on ad nauseum. Cheering for the dead and dying on Sept. 11th. My country has never supported these types of cowardly acts that many radical muslims seemingly cherish.
These spiritually misinformed, ignorant, uneducated people think they will be in the presence of allah after perpetuating some cowardly act on innocents...you are going to talk to God all right...and you aren't going to like what happens then. Cowards...this is exactly what your allah is going to say to you right before he sends you to hell.

I think a multitude of people are missing the bigger picture. Who are God's chosen people? I would like to believe we all are. If you believe in God, whatever name you give him, wouldn't you also believe He created us all, or is there more than one God who created different groups of people? So if agree there is only one God, then all of us would be His children. So how could any loving parent choose one child over another? How can any logical, intelligent person believe that the act of one child killing another in God's name would make him happy? It appears that is has finally come to pass that the aethiests are more spiritual than anyone of a certain organized religion. I have never tuned into CNN and heard.."Atheist suicide bomber kills...." And how intelligent can these people be to think they can scare others into adopting their beliefs.
"Believe in my God or I will kill you in His name"
No thanks, for if this is what your God believes, I would rather die and go meet mine! One final question. Does anyone think God needs an ego? Think about it, if you were God and you know you created everything there is in existance, Universe et al, would you really care if anyone believes you did?

Regarding the comment about Muhammad being the first racist, I think you really should read up on world, Christian and Islamic history before making such blatently ignorant remarks. I think if we all actually took the time to study some basic history we could have much more well informed and meaningful debates rather than back and forth arguing about nothing.

Old Atlantic:

George Bernard Shaw said; "If any religion can conquer Britain nay the whole of Europe in the next 100 years it can only be the religion of Islam".

Now dont lose sleep over it. Remember he said this while Britain had more Muslims as subjects in its Empire than any other religious groups.

Johann Wolfgang Goethe said after reading the Koran:
"If this is Islam than we should all be muslims".
But he did not convert.

If you really want to understand Islam read about
1. The Battle of Badr. 2. Hussain at Karbala.

If you want to know the truth! and are not just a propagandist whose mind is closed and heart is sealed.
Islam is a world religion. It is a very diverse religion and embraces hundreds of ethinic, national and linguistic groups.
It remains the worlds fastest growing religion.
And like any other religion it is likely to be exploited by powerful and ambitious men.
If you quote lines from the Koran you should be fair and compare it with similar verses of the Bible.

The perpetual lie...from the muslim radicals, is the lie of israeli occupation. This lie was started by the arabs on the grounds of extermination of a race of people. This is the same philosophy of the Ku Klux Klan. The southern folk of the USA and the radical muslim have one thing in common, they both have their head up their poop hole.

Suggestion. Take all those (US, Middle East, Europe, Asia, where ever) that speak to god and think that he speaks back to them, put them in a stadium and blow it up. Then we can talk about all the things that are really important. I am sure God would really listen then.

To Old Atlantic:

It is easy to Cut/Paste and quote from Quran without reading and understanding its context. You cut and pasted Verse 5, Chapter 9 from Quran. Just read a Verse above it, and see if you still think that way.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html

If Israel is permitted to develop nuclear weapon and is allowed by the US to bully and indeed attack other country why then is Iran not allow to develop its own weapon?

Us is definitely more dangerous to world
stability.
I hate those damn southerners in USA
they take over US federal government and
look what they created - a MESS and
complete disregard for US laws and constitution
and complete fooling of majority of
american people - swindling them and
plundering US treasury and sending out
deceptive information and data about
the economy and census information.

I think if the congress does impeach and
remove the president and vice president
things will look much better for us here.
I just can't wait to see these Republiucans
aholes removed from power.

I cannot believe the stupidity of man kind.. killing each other over religious beliefs and a God we even don't have proof, it exist. When is the human kind going to start thinking? What about all the other living species who are paying the price for our stupidity and arrogance? It makes me sick! Without a healthy environment, the human species will not survive.

The cat and mouse games played by the third world countries, mostly islamic, is disgusting. No condemnation for suicide bombers, no disputing that the kuran is nothing but a written manual from the worlds first racist...muhammad. How any normal spiritual believing person on earth could think that murdering because you are different sounds alot like the Ku Klux Klan. Was muhammad in fact the first Klan leader that the world has had to endure?

US need to leave Iraq ASPA. One to save thier internatioan lrepsct that they lost past few years and give people of region to solve thier porblem. They cna solve thier problems very logically. Remerber they have lived in that region over 3000 years. I think over 3000 years they have had a few problems and confilcts which they solved and came of the it alive. I do not see US involvment in Iraq to be heading in that directions. WE have a lot of porblems right here in US that needs to taking care of.

US need s t oleave Iraq ASPA. One to save thier internatioan lrepsct that they lost past few years and give people of region to solve thier porblem. They cna solve thier problems very logically. Remerber they have lived in that region over 3000 years. I think over 3000 years they have had a few problems and confilcts which they solved and came of the it alive. I do not see US involvment in Iraq to be heading in that directions. WE have a lot of porblems right here in US that needs to taking care of.

Perhaps there are countries other than Iran & Iraq, that are waiting to invade America. I see two countries that have Waayyyyy bigger fangs than Iran & Iraq. Russia & China would be two to say the least (China seems to be conducting economic warfare with the capitalist system - they also have at this time an over abundance of males AKA soldiers). It would appear that the time would be now, while Americas armies are abroad. What would the Americans do upon invasion? Nuke themselves? I guess it depends on who the commander in chief is to answer that question.

I challenge all on this thread, to continue the thread without using references to religion. I mean come on, do you really think that war-mongers are orthodox religious? So throwing witty banter around about apostles, prophets, and holy readings in conjuction to how a country should operate it's policies is what I would call diplomacy for the insane.

Put this on. I like to fight (my secret shame). Always have and always will. What will you do when you see me coming for you? Talk to god? Would you try to reason with me that I should obey your god? I tell you I am not religious. All your arguments are lost on me. I am not alone either. I have many, many friends of the same design. And wow. None of my non-religous friends has to blow anything up, or kill anyone in order to win an argument.

So here is an line of thinking that may help this thread. Discuss this:

Do you think that when the west brings online full production of alternative fuels, and quit relying on middle east oil, that any future National Intelligence Estimates in Washington won't even have the word Muslim in any of National security estimates. Hence all this B.S. about nukes, global security, and Islamofacists is a put on to get an unfettered supply of Oil? You guys are smart aren't you? Take the god out of your argument for once so we all can share the real commonality that earth folks have.

It is a stupid question; America is inherently a more dangerous country than Iran because it's inconceivably more powerful.

There will always, always, always be tension among different ethnicities and faiths all around the globe. That tension will most certainly never, ever be alleviated in the slightest through military action. The United States government is so adamant about the regional control of resources in the Middle East and elsewhere that the invented and highly propagandized "war on terror" has become a front to the illegal present and future invasions of resource-rich lands. The Arab ethnicity is demonized by the largely Christian and pro-Israel American media to the extent that citizens like Old Atlantic ("old atlantic"... probably an allusion to the exodus of Jewish from Europe to America in the mid 1900s) are coming to suggest that genocide is a solution to the problems in the Middle East. Because whether you admit it or not, if the U.S. pre-emptively "nukes" any Arab nation for seeking nukes, what will occur is genocide. Death by bombs, death by fallout-related illness, death by neglect because the infrastructures of those "rogue" nations will have been destroyed. Those left will take up arms (weapons that they will likely recieve from their occupiers) against the occupiers to defend their homelands, because they will have nothing else to do and less than nothing to lose. And this will be so the world can feel safe?

Rather than rant about what happened in 1920 or 633, lets think about what Mr. Ozel has said.

"In addition, the style and substance of the Bush administration has alienated most everyone in the world."

This is true. A combination of arrogance and incompetance has not improved Iraq. An evil dictator has gone, but the USA has created chaos and misery. Now it seems to be blaming the Iraq people, and justifying belicose threats to Iran.

"The world probably isn’t yearning to see a nuclear Iran, but there is even less desire to see an American assault on yet another Middle Eastern country." Yet that seems a possibility.

And the American people do not want more war. It just seems that this administration views it more attractive than admitting the bad situation that exists. It is a state of denial as Woodward states in his book.

old atlantic ij stooje of mediya he has no ideya of ground realitiej of the situation in the ground and he apuse Khilafat

Old Atlantic suggest nuking everyone. Except savage Israel, which most of the world would really like to "dismantle"...and of course the US, which is Israel's cash cow. Let's see, phony numbers and conclusions, a sense of superiority, etc...wouldn't Old Atlantic like to admit that he is a rabbi, which most of us have surely concluded/ And continue his phony 'teaching' of all of us. Enlighten us.

Birathers,
The mediya is fueling this hate amongst us aprahamic birathers, bhy bhy bhy must we phight amongst ourselves? bhereever we go we phind clash obh civilisations cultures and peliefs. beebal are investing in missile dephence and other satellite taking down weappuns and there is nothing to eat for the beebal?is there a need to phight over so called weappuns of mass destriying?
bhat if Iran has them everybody has them Israel India Roos France is the bax amyericana goying t invade all?
Answers pleaje

This discussion has deteriorated into absurdity, and is illustrative of the reasons the World is in such turmoil.

We have religious fanatics, Christians, Jews, and Muslims, attempting to dredge up thousands of years of history to make their case that "they" are the real victims and "they" must be avenged for past atrocities. That the "others" are about to take over the World.

"They" always go to their Bible, Quran, or Torah to "prove" their contentions about the "other". Acting as if their position is justified by God. What kind of God would advocate murder?

Who are "God's chosen people"?

Is it American Evangelicals who are spreading "Peace and Democracy" throughout the World, whose President speaks to God? Would Jesus have invaded Iraq?

Or maybe it is the Jews to whom God has given Palestine?

Or maybe it is Muslims who want to "restore the Caliphate"?

Sorry, I am at a loss. You see, I don't speak to God. But I would hazard a guess that it is "none of the above".

Tariq:

Thanks for the digression.

"Islam is around for almost 1500 years. So actually you will have to cite different set of numbers."

This is a good point, as you indicate. In 633 AD all the lands around the Med were Christian and Jewish. Now those on the south and east are almost completely Muslim.

But Muslims are immigrating to Europe already, not just persecuted Christians and Jews, so Europe may become Muslim soon as you indicate is a future possibility.

Observer from Tehran:

"So, take your stories elsewhere...people in the Middle East and Turkey want to live and enjoy peace."

Saying Muslims want to live in peace is blasphemy? No, because peace means the House of Peace, i.e. one world under Islam. When you make war on us, you cal it peace. Muhammad was the original Stalin.

Muhammad?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html

"PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. "

This passage sounds just like what you said Observer.

What did Khomeini say?

Islam is Not a Religion of Pacifists
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, 1942

Islam’s jihad is a struggle against idolatry, sexual deviation, plunder, repression, and cruelty. The war waged by [non-Islamic] conquerors, however, aims at promoting lust and animal pleasures. They care not if whole countries are wiped out and many families left homeless. But those who study jihad will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. All the countries conquered by Islam or to be conquered in the future will be marked for everlasting salvation. For they shall live under [God’s law]. ...

Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does that mean that Muslim should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill the [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]. Does this mean sitting back until [non-Muslims] overcome us? Islam says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean that we should surrender [to the enemy]? Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to paradise, which can be opened only for holy warriors!

from LGF

Sounds like you Observer. That is why we can't let you or your mullahs have nukes.

Guys please no ranting leave us in peace, we are trying for some meaningful discussions

Diyar bloggars
why is the name of Bakistan alway dragged into these discussions?Old Atlantic birather is quaoting phigures left right and centre bithout relevant links. I think that there is no persecution of Xtians in Arab lands. The Amerykan army cannot control Tikrit and they are dreaming of pelly dancing in Tehran. What is this world leading to Mr GEorge Push?

This again has degenerated into a me and you kind of squabble. But mr Atlantic makes a very valid point, Iran and Pakistan need to be Defanged. These are people engaging in nuclear brinkmanship. So either give up your nukes or run the risk of being nuked.

Dear Old Atlantic,

You forgot to say that Christians have slaughtered Jews, not Muslims....Germany and the Nazis, Spain and the Inquisition. The bloodiest wars, such as WWI and WWII, were amongst Christians, not people of different religions. In fact, it is Christians (and not others) that have invented and sold the most destructive weapons since the Industrial Age began!

So, take your stories elsewhere...people in the Middle East and Turkey want to live and enjoy peace. It is not clear what makes you Americans happy? Nuking Iran? Flattening Moscow? Rolling over Beijing? How about just securing Baghdad,....if you can do it 4 years after starting a fight against a creampuff army like Iraq!!!!!....or rebuilding New Orleans?

Old Atlantic:
Your numbers are probably correct.
Christians are migrating from all the areas you mentioned and even from areas you have not mentioned. It is not a easy thing to be a minority in a muslim majority country.
But there must be another explanation.
All these migrations(that you are talking about), have taken place in the last 10-50 years. 9/11 has pushed the numbers up in Iraq and Lebanon and in the holy lands. Christians started leaving Pakistan around the time of Zia. Hindus left Pakistan around the time of Partition and around time of the 1965 war with India. Similarly many Muslims left India to come to Pakstan after 1965 war and Jamshedpur riots.
Sorry for the digression.
But the point Iam trying to prove is that the Numbers your quote are dropping from ?which date. Islam is around for almost 1500 years. So actually you will have to cite different set of numbers.
Depending how far back you want to go ? Well to remind you Syria had 9 Popes (compare to one from Poland),and well the founder of the catholic theology St.Augustine is from Tunisia.
A large part of present day Arab world was the Byzantine Empire.
You will have no problem understanding my point if you will accept that all Abrahamic religions (Judaism,Christianity and Islam)belong to the Middle East not to New York ,London or Paris.
Only a minority migrates the majority usually stays. So if tomorrow a new religion other than Islam becomes the dominant religion of the Middle East then Islam too will become a European religion.

reply to John P. Atlanta

quote

With the startling truths revealed in the above comment it is very clear that America's Christian "morality" dictates that we must nuke Turkey right away!

end quote

In the Quran this is commanded of Muslims towards Christians.

"Oh Dear! What are we to do?"

We have to keep Iran from getting nukes and denuke Pakistan. We do that by invading Iran and surrounding and blockading Pakistan.

Pakistn is working on miniaturizing nuclear warheads to go on missiles on subs. We have to prevent Iran doing that, by invasion, and then make Pakistan stop and give up its missiles, subs and nukes.

Iran and Pakistan are too small not to have to cooperate with others to maintain subs, nukes and missiles. We have already caught Pakistan selling to Iran. Pakistan has over 30 billion in foreign debt, whose interest exceeds their exports. They have to sell these subs to Saudi Arabia to keep their programming financially afloat.

"No Arab Christians were ever persecuted in Arab lands."

What a very specific phrase. This is meant to exclude Greek Christians in Turkey. The Christians and the Muslims are not Arab.

The Christian Cleansing Chart refers to Muslim lands, and includes Turkey. It doesn't say Arab Muslims. Nor does it restrict those cleansed to Arab Christians.

Christians have been persecuted by Muslims since 633 AD. The Quran commands it. The status of the Dhimmi is second class. Christians, including Arab Christians are persecuted today in every Arab land and in every Muslim land. Look at Jihad Watch for the story.

The drop in percentages can't be explained by this rural urban story. Christians are persecuted by Muslims everywhere. The Quran commands it.

Old Atlantic, your numbers are false and purposely misleading.

No Arab Christians were ever persecuted in Arab lands.

In the case of Syria and Iraq the decline in the relative number of Christians is due to differential birth rates between Muslims, who tend to have more kids, and Christians, who tend to be more urbanized and more educated and thus have less kids.

In the case of Jerusalem, the Christian and Muslim Arabs were both driven out and made refugees by Israel.

In the case of Bethlehem, it is being flooded by Arab refugees from Israel's occupation of 1967 lands.

What are you saying "Old Atlantic", that Turkey has done evil and is not the perfect "lily-white" Christian defenders of truth, democracy, liberty and justice like we are?

With the startling truths revealed in the above comment it is very clear that America's Christian "morality" dictates that we must nuke Turkey right away!

But wait. They have been our staunch ally since WWII and a bulwark against the atheist Communist threat to our very existence!

Oh Dear! What are we to do?

Soli Ozel--
Post Global has/had great potential for a sounding voices from "all over"--like yours above,(thank you0 and opportunity for good exchange following. But, like everything else media in the US, we get only the pro Israel voices. And they are determined that US blood and money shall be used to "nuke" Iran. But you know that. And it is changing big time.
Do continue to contribute.

The Turkish court that convicted Hrant Dink of disparaging Turkish national character by criticizing genocide was saying that to criticize genocide is to criticize the Turkish national character. This means the Turkish national character and genocide are the same thing.

They both come from the Quran. The same applies to Iran. This is why they don't want us to denuke Iran.

quote The sentiment of the European public is probably representative of the rest of the world, except for perhaps a few Arab countries. end quote.

Turkey genocided Christians from the beginning of Turkish invasions of Anatolia to the latest killing after Pope Rage and Hrant Dink.

Christian Cleansing Chart data.
Percentage of Christians in Muslim lands. Turkey 1923 15 percent, Now 1 percent

Syria 1920 33 percent, Now 10 percent

Iraq 1970 5.8 percent, Now 2.65 percent

Jerusalem 1922 53 percent, Now 2 percent

Bethlehem 1948 85 percent, Now 12 percent

9-11 was a pogrom of Christians and Jews.

Source London Times. All my staff at the church have been killed - they disappeared Stephen Farrell, Jerusalem and Rana Sabbagh Gargour, Amman Times Online December 23, 2006.

The greater the Muslim population, the more genocide they do.

Search on Christian Cleansing Chart to get links with more info on Turkey's genocide of Christians and continuing persecution of Christians and Jews which has gone on throughout the 20th century to today. This is why they killed Hrant Dink, because Turkey is still anti-Christian and anti-Jewish just as the Quran tells them to be.