DAVIDKASS: "Having visited Kiryat Arba late last year, I heard plenty of cries of "Death to the Arabs" not only on the street but also at shul. The arabs have their radicals as do the Jews. Massive generalizations like Saul made are not only incorrect but also unhelpful to the understandings between peoples that are a neccesary prelude to peace."

Hear, hear!

STEPHEND: I'm glad you love Jews. I love you too =] I agree with you on the fundamental contradiction between Jewish values and what the State of Israel has come to represent. It is not the first time in history that had happened: the worst wars tend to be fought in the name of religions of peace. I do hope that the land can someday be shared; I can't imagine what kind of catharsis might be required to make such a thing happen. I'm not sure I want to.
A good first step might be to leave the settlers where they are, and give them citizenship under the Palestinian State. Israel would have to provide resources for security -- although there would be 'incidents.' It is both unfortunate and inevitable that the Settlers and the Palestinians in the Territories are far more radical than the Israeli Arabs and the Israelis within the Green Line. Still, with patience and leadership these things can be overcome, and a population swap would make a far more lasting peace than land swap. The land is so tiny, they'll have a federal agreement and a constitution in two generations of peace...
If one day Jews and Palestinians live in peace in one state for two peoples, that state would indeed be the Light of Nations. It has so far been the common refrain that humans have failed to rise to the challenge.

thespindle.wordpress.org

Strange!!!!!!! Why does it take hours to post a comment when it was submitted twice so far? Or does need an apporval from AIPAC???

May be I should write to the Chief Editor of the
WP about this foot dragging.

"In this context, what is surprising is not so much the success of Lieberman's party, but the Israeli Supreme Court's repeated decisions to uphold the right of Israeli Arab parties to challenge the fundamental basis of the state they are ostensibly sworn to represent."

But you keep saying it's a Jewish state. Of course they're going to challenge that. They're citizens who aren't Jewish.

The root cause of the problem isn't their supposed radicalism. It's your insistence on having an ethnic state in a multiethnic zone.

Seriously, how does your brain work, Singer? You tell people that this state exists to serve an ethnic group of which they aren't a member, then you demand loyalty from them? Err.. what?

What's amazing is that they stayed quiet for so long.

Religious nutters should not run a country - period. Be it an Arab, a Western, or a Middle-Eastern country.

How can a modern state even entertain the idea that 20% of its population might be disenfranchised because of their failure to pay obesiance to a belief in fairies and unicorns?

The problem with the middle east is that it seems to only provide for a choice between equally deluded and despicible religious nutters.

Mr Saul Singer:

1., That which is a theocracy by design [as per Zionist desire, right of return for Jews, etc] can not be also democracy. I would strongly suggest that Iran's democracy is less theocracy [notwithstanding the power of the the Religious leadership] than that is now Israel [where even the Jewish citizens want to stay in Iran u8nder the present "democracy"].

2., The Zionist Government's actions were not a war [for war can only occur among sovereign states] but a very murderous police action asgainst residents completely under the political, legal and military power of the State of Israel [ which applies both to Gaza and the West Bank].

3., Now that the neocon cabal has left Washington, DC [at least as being in power] the freedom of action of any proposed government of Israel is stricktly limited after the last two fiascos- Lebanon and Gaza, taking into considertaion the international economic malaise [if not depression] and the strong desire of Mr. Obama to make peace with the rest of the world, including all Arab states.

4., While Elites and cerain lobby groups [Aipac among others] strongly support Israel [often to the detriment of Jews in Israel] the power is ebbing from them due to the late actions of Wall Street. Any push by Israel might have very strong economic based resistance by the electors in USA, as they are getting fed up with bank bail-outs, foreign aid as they see their children' and grandchildren's responsibility for the admitted and not admitted debts of the USA Government growing to the point that they might never be able to repay.

Aside form the above I enjoyed reading your note, and thank you for some information I was in need of receiving.

shilotoren: "So if you don"t like Israel being a Jewish state, perhaps it is just that you don"t like Jews. You certainly seem animated by the idea of eliminating the one Jewish state there is.

In short, warts and all, Israel is a liberal democracy and while we have our share of racists, is definitely not a racist state nor is any one serious about changing into a racist state."

It is unbelievably frustrating to have to say this, but I must emphasize the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. I love Jews. You cannot infer that I am anti-semitic because I criticize Israel's identity as a Jewish state. Many Jews reject Israel's right to be a Jewish state. I reject the proposition that any ethnic group has a right to its own ethnic state. Ethnic nationalism is not only an anathema to democracy, but it is the same cancerous ideology that has motivated most of the conflicts around the globe since the 1800s (including WWII & the Holocaust).

Perhaps it sounds inflammatory to say this, but Israel is in fact a racist state. Israel defines "Jewishness" in racial terms, religious beliefs having nothing to do with Jewish identity. Why else do "secular Jews" have a right to immigrate? This conceptualization is tragically ironic, given the persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany.

Israel is a racist state because its racism is codified in law. The Law of Return is racist, the disenfranchisement of Arab-Palestinian refugees is racist, and the military occupation of the West Bank is racist. Watch this recent 60 Minutes report by Bob Simon to realize just how bad the situation is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB7XhrFUAAc

The 60 Minutes piece is also interesting because it is the ultra-nationalism Israeli settlers in the West Bank who are making the two-state solution impossible. If anyone will ultimately cost Israel its identity as a "Jewish state," it will be those settlers.

Having visited Kiryat Arba late last year, I heard plenty of cries of "Death to the Arabs" not only on the street but also at shul. The arabs have their radicals as do the Jews. Massive generalizations like Saul made are not only incorrect but also unhelpful to the understandings between peoples that are a neccesary prelude to peace.

Looks like we are in for a no holds bar Israel bash here. Mr. SInger can be a paragon of moderation, yet immediately we get the same old recycled garbage from the same old crowd of Israel bashers.

Hacsato: "their grandparents had more rights in Europe and that other immigrants to Israel had more social rights in, say, Egypt, Iraq, Iran,.... than what Arab minotirities have in Israel"

That backed anywhere in fact? Even England and the USA had official discrimination in the form of quotas at universities in the 1930's. But, what the heck, free country to pass on any lie you want, right? Looks like you are more racist than 99% of Israel. Oh I retract, perhaps only 95%. Israel Arabs have a hard time of things, but as Israeli citizens they live better than most of the Moslem world excluding some of the Gulf States. The great majority of Jews in Israel did not vote Liberman.

StephenD11:

"its asserted identity as an "Jewish State" on the one hand, and its attempt to pass as a liberal democracy on the other"

If you left it at that perhaps that would be an openning for a discussion. The Jewish nature of the state of Israel is a natural reflection of the overwhelming majority of her citizens. Excepting missionary activity (all missionary activity by all religions), Christians and Moslems enjoy religious freedoms. Israel pays the salaries of Moslem kadis and Christian clergy as it similarly pays salaries to Jewish rabbis. Jerusalem is full of mosques and churches, all are protected, and few are the cases of mosques being defaced or attacked. So if you don"t like Israel being a Jewish state, perhaps it is just that you don"t like Jews. You certainly seem animated by the idea of eliminating the one Jewish state there is.

In short, warts and all, Israel is a liberal democracy and while we have our share of racists, is definitely not a racist state nor is any one serious about changing into a racist state.

"Being a Jewish state, after all, is not just about being the only country in the world with a Jewish majority, but reflecting Jewish values, such as respect for human rights, including minority rights, and treating all citizens equally."

This sentence encapsulates the fundamental contradiction of Israel itself: its asserted identity as an "Jewish State" on the one hand, and its attempt to pass as a liberal democracy on the other. These two identities are utterly irreconcilable, and Israel must choose which identity it values more.

As it stands now, Israel is a racist regime more committed to preserving its ethnic majority than adhering to modern democratic values. How else to explain the fact that diaspora Jews ("secular Jews" included) have the right to immigrate and settle land under Israel's Law of Return while the exiled Arab refugees who once lived there languish in segregated ghettos? This flagrant ethnic discrimination is unjust and unsustainable.

If Israel ever wants true peace, it must appropriate the occupied territories in the creation of a single, secular state, with equal civil and political rights for all inhabitants. Jews and Arabs must SHARE THE LAND. Any compromise or solution which segregates on the basis of ethnicity will only prolong further violence.

This is the 21st century, not the 19th. Let's hope President Obama abides by the words of his own Inaugural Address in addressing the conflict:

"We cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; that as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself; and that America must play its role in ushering in a new era of peace.”

Israel by definition is a racist "country" (or terrorist organisation might be a better description for it). It must change to adopt norms of the rest of the world. It might be a good idea to remind the Ashkenazi jews (who are a minority in Israel but control the government) that their grandparents had more rights in Europe and that other immigrants to Israel had more social rights in, say, Egypt, Iraq, Iran,.... than what Arab minotirities have in Israel. Yes, the shoe is on the other foot but that does not give Israelis the right to kick people. Time to grow up!

The road to the gas chambers is paved with moral compromises.

Oh God!

A discussion on Jewish values and Israel's care for "human rights"?

After Gaza, and Lebanon and the clusber bombs and the settlers and West Bank outrages...

for which most cities in the world demonstrated in rage and detestation for Israel's actions?

Are we supposed to laugh out loud or swallow the garbage of a muse about Israel's care for "human rights"? It's too much.