So will it be different if the anti Anti-semites and the real Semites don't kill each other in this battlefield of Iraq with money of the USA for oil ?

It's always interesting to hear a Jewish perspective of "the west" in terms that completely separate Judaism from the west. First off, what do you mean by "the west?" Do you mean western Europe and the United States? I'm frankly a bit confused, since Ashkenazi and (to a lesser degree) Sephardic Jews have been a part of "Western" society since antiquity, and have made their mark on Western culture. Of course they did so as a marginalized group, but they were/are inextricable from the Christian portion of western development. I can't think of a better example then Rabbi Moses ben Maimonides, without whom much of the re-discovery of classical sources would never have reached Europe and thus would have stalled the development of the Renaissance.

You mention that "the west" thinks human beings to be born "good" but corrupted by the world. That would be a remnant of the Enlightenment. The truth is, the Christian west still struggles with this one, because many Christians still believe in the concept of "Original Sin." Christianity, as most people practice it today, still holds that we're all basically evil and we can only be saved from eternal damnation through the intervention of Christ. Arguably, the dialectic between this dualistic and rather schizophrenic dichotomy of perspective is one of the central conundrums which has produced such horrific atrocities as the Nazi holocaust. How can we look at the world in a logical light when all we can see is a battle between good and evil?

As to the distinction between Jewish and Christian thought, certainly there are profound differences, but I would like to hold a mirror up to modern Jewish culture, if I may be so bold, and point out that there are many Jews (please don't take this as a generalization--I'm well aware that this is not how all Jews feel) whose blind hatred of Palestinians reaches well beyond the level of "them vs. us" and into the "we're right and good and they're wrong and evil." It's easy to find examples of this everywhere I look, on the internet. Even a friend of mine whom I consider an otherwise intelligent and rational person, posted an article on MySpace which, when boiled down to its essentials, suggested that Palestinians were only a slight step above animals and would never be ready to live in peace. The Israeli author of this article stopped short of suggesting that the Palestinians should simply be eradicated, but the tone strongly suggested that his beliefs leaned in that direction. With so many people in Israel (and elsewhere) who feel this way, it would be so easy to push Israel over the line into becoming no better than Nazi Germany.

I do not write this as a propaganda tool for Palestine, who are equally culpable in the Middle East violence. How, after all, can they possibly hope to make peace when they elect a government from an organization whose explicit goals have been, from the start, the eradication of the state of Israel? If Hezbollah members ever seriously expect Israel to leave them alone, they're going to need to change quickly.

In any case, my point is that perhaps, as part of "the west" (as I see it) Israel is suffering from some of the same problems (and also thrives from some of the benefits, accordingly) that the rest of western civilization must confront. This article is somewhat disingenuous, stating "the west" does this while "Judaism" does that. The truth is that you mean to say "Christianity" or perhaps "Christian culture" instead of "the west." In either case, your generalizations concerning the prevalent attitudes of both cultures obscures the central problematic realities confronting "the west" (including Israel) today.

Greetings Sister Ann Wang et al:

I was in Hong Kong when Tiawan was called Fermosa. I traveled the world as an International Smuggler for almost ten years.

People need people. And this lead me to the discovery yo the answer why are we experiencing this UNSINFULL MIRACLE. We are ALL Dalai Lama's ands there is ZERO G-D about Mr. Dalai & Co.

The reason why we appear in our MeMe PHOTOFINITE selves is because ECLAT (is Tempertaure/TIME/Spirit) did not want to be LONELY. The FEARLESS UNJEAOULES ALMIGHTY is about ETERNITY AVOIDING LONLINESS THROUGH ALL THINGS ANIMATE & INANIMATE via this MIZAN (Balance) in ITSELF (Me, You, Pet, Rock etc.)

I met some beautufull people from China, Nepa, Cashmere, Tibet, India, Pakistan, Ceylon & other IMMORTAL HUMATES. I had the best times and I saw G-d if there is such a thing throgh their Love, respect & Honor for Humanity.

In America, My friend Dan Zhao lost his business when the 1 WORLD TRADE CENTERS got Destroyed by the so called "Magnificant 19." And I lost my web hosting nich business just as well. This behavour is un-Dalai Lama in NATURE by tragic example. So we must always strive to take the middle path. And yes, we do go astray.

I am attaching something that I've been working on today. And I'll need your opinion SISTER, of what you think. O.K. Sschee Sschee, :-)' Dalai Lama sends regard to ALL MAN KIND! SHOLOM!

(((((((((( A BRIEF ENCOUNTER FOR A NEW WORLD ))))))))))

(((((((( PROOF ON WHY RELIGIOUS LAW SHOULD BE BANNED FOREVER ))))))))

USE YOUR ((( H.U.E.R.I.S.T.I.C.S ))) NOT RELIGION

Anju

Regarding India -- what about the Hindu-Muslim riots, not just at partition but even within the last 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 years? What about dividing Punjab into mini states? What about the Sikhs wanting a separate state/country? I will give you that India does have a great sense of national identity but to call it peaceful coexistence? It's like the US - we have a strong national identity but polarized groups, sometimes resorting to violence create all sorts of conflicts.

Survival of the fittest - in murder and war - is the controlling impetus.

I apologize, I entered Andu's name in the name field instead of mine in the previous post.

You'd be amazed to see it based on the news but Israel is also a very diverse country with people of all religions, races, etc living together. What you see in the news is a gross distortion of the country of Israel.

I suggest everybody come to India and see for themselves as to how a land so diversified in its constitution in terms of religion, region, ethnicity, language, caste, colour, creed, class, culture, couture, cousine, etc. can exist peacefully and prosper with a safe, secure and secular political arrangement i.e. democracy.

As A atheist I am amaized to see religion stepping in since the first post on this interesting topic. Make sure the first settlers on Mars will be atheist...

If you stop feeding your dog and start beating it ; it will kill you too

Shall I write what I really think? I find this victims accounting business, presented somehow as a game (any fanciful number will do!) towards establishing who will have been doing worst (a few millions victims plus or minus) perfectly monstrous.

That game says more about us than the actual killing: it speaks eloquently of our soullessness, puts us well below the Beast.

Makes me love my dog all the more.

Why has no one commented on what might be the funniest comment so far? Yangkee8...kudos to you. God certainly is an inspiration for lots of killing.

But, c'mon. There's nothing like simple Godless hubris to spark genocide and injustice. See the following: Idi Amin. Rwanda. Hitler. Stalin. Napoleon. Oh, and Chairman Mao.

Now now. Cheer up, God. You've inspired a few doozies. Lot's of people die for you. But nothing like the 30 million in China, the 60 million in the USSR, killed for purely human reasons.

People kill for various reason but the number one reason is religion. Some religions condone and encourage killing like in the Koran or among Christian extremists in the US who support captital punishment. Killing is killing and, although, most religions talk about being against it, many of the so called "religious" kill in the name of their God.

Maybe people kill because it's hardwired into us. I wonder why the human species has no close relatives as do most other species? Could it be that we are "programmed" to fight for our niche against all others we see as being able to occupy it? Perhaps it would explain why the longer a region is inhabited by humans, the more schisms and sectarian violence seems to appear. If so, I suppose now that we are all so much like each other genetically, we could wake up and try to change that behavior. I have a feeling it would not be a successful effort until something fundamental changes in our genetic makeup.

People kill for money, property, and sex. Drape it with all the rationalizations you want--god, honor, revenge, respect, initiation--the underlying fuse is one of those three.

SLY SAUL...at it again. The West, he says, 'prevailed over the "worst in it's own nature". (that's us and the Europeans AND Americans..not Saul and his own) and now the question is whether we can "prevail over those who would destroy us"....etc...(that's everything in the mideast except the Jews, folks) Nnother sly not so hidden dig at everything Muslim or Islam. And European and American. The jews, with a history of war and savagery SECOND TO NONE)and still continuing, (try cluster bombs, etc., in Lebanon and palestine) apparently have sat around playing harps.
He never stops.

Wonderfully stated Sual.

Glen,

You state: "People do not want war but the Hitlers and Saddams lead them into war for their own glory."

While it is true that the average person does not want war, it is not just the dictators that have a desire for war.

Do the names Wolfowitz, Feith, Pearle, Kristol ring a bell? They are neo-cons who wanted this war more than Saddam. It benifited them, their connections in the defense industry, their political theories and, something no one wants to say out loud, Israel.

These American citizens and lobbists (with duel loyality) caused the war - not Saddam.

Saul - your comment "The West tends to see people as naturally good, and therefore requiring some outside force...to corrupt them" is probably too absolute a claim for reality. For many in the west, especially moderns post-Rousseau, that is true.
THRH - Jewish civil war? Unfortunately, been there, done that. Read about 165 BCE when Hellenized Jews fought other Jews who wanted to stay Jewish. The story is told at Hanukah as one of brave guerrillas resisting imperial cultural assimilaton (part but not all of the story).

The west has prevailed over the worst of its own nature not because we are any better but because we are democracies that practice the rule of law. People do not want war but the Hitlers and Saddams lead them into war for their own glory. People forget that we are in Iraq because of a brutal, mad dictator who claimed he had WMD. We showed the moral resolve to do something and now everyone says this was a mistake. How is it a mistake to defend against a perceived outside force that is out to destroy everything we have come to stand for? Your question is the right question: will we have the moral strength to defend ourself in the future? The bad guys are out there and they will not go away until every nation has a functioning democracy with a respect for the rule of law. This will not happen anytime soon. Evil men understand and respond only to force. Appeasement never, ever works when confronting evil. Do we have the moral strength and historical prospective to understand this principle?

and a note/question for the author:

who is this mysterious "outside" force wish destruction upon the West?

is it the boogy man?? perhaps it is the "terrorists"?

fool us, once shame on you; fool us twice....

nice try, my neo-con jewish friend; however we are not going to have a war with Iran for the sake of Israel.

jacob, you are one wacky guy!

the palestinians are not "jealous" of Israel's economic status - they are just a bit upset about having their land taken and being treated as sub-humans by the racist and apartheid state of Israel

also, stop posting that oboxious and ignorant message concerning the traditions of Christian faith - you don't have a clue!

I can't help but notice that when a group of leaders
identifies another group of people for their followers to hate, it is often because that unifying
hatred is about all that they have to offer.

"People kill since biblical times".
Are you suggesting that it is all right to kill..
No wonder your name is SAUL.

Jacob Jozevs,

Well, first off, David wasn't a Patriach. Your statement should have been David = Judah because all valid kings come from the tribe of Judah. Moshe wasn't a Kohane, I don't know where you're getting this from. I'm not sure why you're trying to compare two different people who lived centuries apart from each other with sects of Islam. You obviously have no understanding of tribal status in Judaism.

As for Avraham's and Noach's mothers, what do you see as the significance regarding their names?

Groups of human beings have been fighting each other over everything and anything since before recorded history. It's genetic -- especially in males. It starts out we fight over food and land. Then money and power, then the endless cycle of revenge. We are still uncivilized. I am ashamed of my fellow Americans who didn't even think after 9/11 and went directly to revenge against the evildoers. How quickly a new century and new millenium was lost to more of the same.

Asking why groups fight isn't germaine. Ask when will men ever be rewarded for not being muscle-bound heros when they go off to kill? We adulate people like Schwarzenegger and Mel Gibson. We say if you don't want to fight you don't love America! If we want peace, we have to be peaceful, teach patience and understanding. Violence, for whatever reason, always brings more violence.

"The open question is whether the West... has the moral strength to defend itself against an outside force determined to destroy everything it has achieved and come to stand for." -- Clear enough. Read: "...whether the West... is prepared to side unconditionally with Israel against its neighbours." Same inclination towards permanent conflict and perpetual war. Nothing new under the biblical sun.

"Tirade:

Did I read this correctly? A Saul Singer column that did not attack Islam or make racist comments? This column must have been written by an imposter!"

Read it again...closely.

Jacob Jozevs,

You may think you know something about Judaism but you're wrong. Levi is a tribe with Kohens being a sub-group of the Levi tribe. King David was from the tribe of Judah not Levi.

If the bible need be brought into this, jealous Cain kills Abel for wanting to be "the chosen one", in the eyes of the father.

Religious groups fight each other because each considers, somehow, being "the chosen one", by God? So each group that fights has its gentiles, its goys.

This part of the problem has its origins in infancy. In this case, therefore, accepting to share the father with one's brothers and sisters is a primary solution. Similarly, to accept to share God with others (literally one's true brothers and sisters, and even more so in God)is the religious solution.

A religion with no father figure, with no God the father, has those very reasons for being more tolerant.

the old civilizations and cultures vis-a-vis Chinese with its uninterupted civilizations for 5 millenia and India with his religious-&-philosophy rich civilizations`knew and cared no-things about bibles or jesus, and they're happy and still survived thru thesedays. Who care about sibling killings of Cain or Unable? they ain't 1st murder in history.

For the world to avoid wars and needless killings of lives, perhaps, it should totally eradicates Christianity and Jesus, and the biggest lies-telling books of bible which was fabricated by the jew-slaves.

China is lucky that refuses to recognize christianity and the pope. If henry 8 could fabricated and manufactured a new religion from the killing machine of vatican in his days, so can China -vis-a-vis own brand of christian religion based on chinese culture and human values and particularly the respect of human lives and not to kill'em by boombing and butcherings thru war and in the names of neoconservativesism and westerncracy( colonialized western democracy).

Genesis of western democracy was derived from blood sweat and toils and slavery from the exploitation of colonialized and conquered peoples.Western democracy is merely a slogan, a toll for the continuation of exploitation an d control of the powerless peoples of the 3rd world.When bush unilaterally went to war in Irak, he called it democracy-spreading. After killing nearly one million peoples from both sides, Irakis the painful price for the Bush-or Western democracy. For the same token, Deng xiaoping saved 400 millions Chinese from starvation and raissed their living to the middle-calss standard, was Deng's reform better off than democracy that the west so oftenly quoted and revered. Long live socialism.

Did I read this correctly? A Saul Singer column that did not attack Islam or make racist comments? This column must have been written by an imposter!

And we Christians have Protestant and Catholics, and many centuries of bloodshed to show for it. Not to mention killing Jews and Muslims, as a sideshow to the main slaughter.

The reason the Jews haven't had their own civil war, I would opine, is that they have been too busy ducking down to avoid being slaughtered in others' civil wars. Give them their own state, with no one else to defend themselves against, and just watch the fun!

Mr. Singer et al: Sholom! I know that the Jewish people have "Kohan" and "Levite" where the former can claim direct descendent from Moses and the latter being directly descended from king DAVID. And it seems like these peace loving Brothers and Sisters get along quite well and rarely kill each other over such G-d given titles and right. So, why is the Sunni and Shia in Iraq, and elsewhere, are killing [each other] over their titles purporting it was given as an EXCLUSIVE inheritence from Mr. Mohammad himself et al to one side and not exclusive to Sunni folk? Are Levites and Sunni's SECONDARY CITIZENS? :-)'