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To Karim.....Re: As soon as the subject is identified as Muslim or Islamic, the brush of bigotry is swept across anything that resembles Muslim.

How many suicide bombings have been carried out by Buddhists? Or Methodists? Or Hindus? Or Prebyterians?

One (be it an individual or a group) can only improve by first acknowledging that there is indeed a problem. Fact: Hudood Laws exists NOT because of govt decree, but because local tribal groups allow them. Many people here sound as though they would be perfectly happy living in the 7th Century.

Pathetic.

Samina,

Bravo! East needs more brave women like you with critical thinking attitude to break this cycle of systematic discrimination against females. I am a bit troubled that your are generalizing the negative side. I am sure there are as many people in Pakistan that regard women with great respect. At any rate, keep up the good work.

There was a post about the Iranian female jourmalist who was raped in Iran this year and fled to USA after putting more than 200,000 $ bail. The Iran government confesticated all her properties.

Ironically postglobal of Washington Post censored the news on this very forum instead of publicising her ordeal.
Why? Why the anti-Israeli posts are not censored on postglobal but facts about Iran's crimes are systematically censored here? What is the bias of postglobal?

I read about Nero playing the violine(or was it some other musical indtrument) while Rome burnt. Its very demoralizing when you realize that some people despite having very good understanding and intellectiual capabilities are only interested in point scoring. We Pakistanis do it when we see any chance of shafting the Indians and the Indians do it when they get a chance to give it to us. For Gods sake . Grow up. Show some maturity. get out of this Paki-Indian mentality. When I was a child every time we were celebrating the death of Indian soldiers I always used to think why are we celebrating it ? He must be a person just like us having parents brothers and sisters. When I was a teenager i had the misfortune to express this to a group of people. They looked at me as if I have gone loco or grown horns. Its the same with Indians. Please please please dont just score points. We have spent a life hurting each other and generating hate. Lets bury the past and move on. Both the countries were to blame for what we did to each other. So its about time that we forget it.

JS BOSTON.

Agree with your comments.
What a difference one word can make: instead of saying WHERE in the world maybe I should have said WHY in the world a country 1/8 the size of its neighbour should have to fight three wars....

spot on,instead off having visions of grandeour about 3 failed wars,start spending your taxpayers money on health,education and on the poor.i belive pak spends about 50PERCENT of its taxpayers money on defence.the highest amount in the world.if you didnt have a kashmir fixation and start to improve relations with india.your people would start to see hope,from there peoples mind sets can change.and life improves for all..

Interesting discussion. Looks like the few thoughtful voices are being drowned out by the noisy ones. Ayaz from VA, I agree, Pakistan was on its way to becoming a failed state because of being used as a conduit for supplying the mujahideen in Afghanistan, and because of the Kalashnikov culture that spread through the whole society. The shock therapy of the US flushing out the Taliban may have prevented the wholesale slide, but the situtation is still very unstable. More than India, I think the most important neighbor to clean up with is Afghanistan, to avoid meddling in their affairs.

Sami, some of your earlier messages were pertinent and good, like the strength of the family system in the sub-continent, etc. But later messages seem to show the same supremacist mentality, like "Tell me where in the world have you seen a country 1/8 the size of its neigbor fight 3 wars". Well, you lost, didn't you.

I've always been fascinated by the question of why India and Pakistan, so alike to begin with, in terms of their inheritance, which was the British infrastructure, developed so differently afterwards. I think even then Hindus had the edge in education, but everybody was starting out from a pretty low base anyway.

USA WOMAN:

So lets see what Christianity or the Bible says: about women,adultery,or marriage.
Dont compare apples and oranges.
Comparisons of different cultures ,is not the same thing as comparing religions.

Perhaps if we show them an example of respect they might see how disrespectful their behavior is for both men against women and women against women.

In our culture, multiple marriages by a man would be considered adultery and disrespect against the first wife...

I don't believe such a concept exists for the sake of the women in Islam....

Perhaps it's wishful thinking.....

Calling other human beings beasts is completely out of line.

Ms. Samina has dehumanized half of Pakistan, and to the average western reader, she just dehumanized half of the all Muslims in the world.

We all know that in America no effort is spent in trying to understand the context of certain issues in certain countries or communities. As soon as the subject is identified as Muslim or Islamic, the brush of bigotry is swept across anything that resembles Muslim.

Entries like the above from Ms Samina provide ammunition for anti-Muslim bigotry.

Next time, someone asks a Muslim man why they treat their women as beats, don't be surprised. They read it on the Washington Post.

There is a threshold beyond which a legitimate concern for human rights and for gender equality turns into justification for bigotry and hatred against entire ethnic groups.

Ms. Samina crossed that threshold.

Please send your complaints to: postglobal@washingtonpost.com.

Is feeding scraps any different than not giving women equal pay and opportunity for the same work and talent?

Why should we judge when we have been so blessed to have so many resources?

We are not that much different.

The amount of respect for the life of each person everywhere is what needs to be cultivated in this world.

Dr.Carma

I'm still waiting for the '60 minutes' expose on the issue of female repression in Puerto Rico

Have u never met a latina woman in your life?

have u ever met any women, other than your mother?

FREE THE WOMEN OF PUERTO RICO FROM THE RAMPANT OPPRESSION THEY SUFFER!!!!

thats almost as catchy as 'free Mandela', isn't it?!

Karma:
Why are you so angry with Carlos.
He seems to be a nice/regular guy.

May be he is fed too many lies. Not everyone gets a chance to move in and out of two cultures or even between 2 countries.
What can you say about lies in the western media: even the whole US congress and every one now pretends they would have voted against the war in Iraq. "Only if I would have known then what I know now" (Hilary).
The fact doesnot matter : people are upset at Bush only because the war is not going well. Remember he was a hero. Now he is bad guy ,not done his job well!

The Western press is guilty too they wanted the War.
They suppressed stories and reports.
"They underreported by 900%" CBS.

Now they are spreading another sensational story about Pakistan and Samina and her ilk are willing pawns. She could have gone to Karachi University and written about Dow Medical University where nearly 65% medical students are girls (corrected by Dr Shoieb from Karachi). Can you say the this about any open admission University in USA.
Or even our Parliment where there are more Women elected members than in the US congress.
Read what the writer from Germany said in WP current article : "mans decision to decide while women had to follow.That law was replaced in 1977". WOW. ( when I quit smoking ...(2days ago)..from one earlier posting).
"Today people can hardly remember the bad old days". He goes on to say Female Professors are only 5.5% of the faculty in Germany.And the 30 biggest public trading companies have only one female name.
I can bet you that there are more women professors in the faculty in Karachi University Pakistan than 5.5% in Germany. And dont forget the Fed- Chairman (Pakistan's Alan Greenspan or Bernaki),in Pakistan is a women (Dr Shamshad Ahmad). Samina what a mess!
You turned all the achievements of 160 million people (including Imran Khan our cricket captain) and turned it into waste and covered it up with a controversial law enacted by a former military dictator who was supported by America and Ronald Reagan and wrecked Pakistan.
While America declared victory walked away clean, the Russians empire fell. The end of Soviet Union.
No American blood shed.
But we shed our blood to defeat American's greatest enemy. Our land and its people were devasted. But we fought. Of course America gave us guns and stingers.
CIA trained our fighters.
CIA created and trained Bin Ladin.
Who promoted the Jihadist (University of Omaha project under Ronald Reagan).
1 out 5 Afghan child is an orphan.
I million amputees.
War that lasted 10 years.
4Million refugees in Pakistan.
We who fought a proxy war for the West.
We who fought and suffered were left to lick our wounds while Americans behaved like a use car salesman who refuses to recognise you the next day.
Now they dont recognise us !! : these selfish bastards. Now they want to know what is the future of Pakistan. What ever it should be never to trust the Americans again.
The Americans just walked away. Clean.
Iam sure they will do the same again. Just walk away. They go to a country create mischief and then just walk away.
So far no one has stayed the course.
"Cut and run or cut and walk" wailed the senator from Oregon. What an idiot.

"I don't have any patience with neanderthals like you who can't write properly (what's with all the "u's"), or form a coherent thought. Get some more education and knowledge so that you can stop worrying about Paki nukes. I am done with you.

on this entire discussion board, there is only one person who has acted like an ass, and clearly will continue to do so

i have formulated more than a few coherent thoughts, and i have no problem discussing an issue

a neaderthal would probably start by claiming racism, then begin to say racist things themselves, and then wrap up by not responding to a single issue
u have spent all your time responding to issues u made up yourself along the way

please Prof Carma, drop some of that knowledge that u squirrel away in your brain on us
i'm dying for u to show the whole world more of your brainpower

Ayaz
thats a very nice way of framing your argument, and I agree with u, i hope Mush succeeds and can lead Pak better than other strongmen have, he seems to be doing a decent job so far
and i agree, ballots instead of bullets!

Carma
So now PR is an island of female repression??
where the hell have u ever heard that women are treated like second class citizens in PR??
and i will tell u what is 'with all the u's' (it is a shorthand for "you", i assume u have never encountered it before)
and u responded to exactly zero of my questions, and thought another disjointed tangent would be sufficient

its not, carma
explain when i was advocating invading Pak, back up some of your hysterical claims

explain where i made any racist claims in this entire conversation......i'm dying to know

yes, i insinuated that you are pakistani, u are either Pakistani, or (to paraphrase yourself, carma) u are israeli or indian, those are the only people who are interested in that region!! isnt' that what u posted earlier?
so which one is it carma? Pak, or a JOO or a HINDI??
u feel compelled to defend your country, thats great, but in your particular case, i think u bring more of a stain on your country through your arguments than benefit

there are better people who aren't linguistically or emotionally challenged who can debate a topic without reverting to name calling

so explain to me, Prof Carma, where is the repression of women in PR?
who the hell wants to invade Pak?
why haven't you been taking your meds?

Karma, all that huffing and puffing and you still haven't written anything advocating for human rights. Will not focus on silly cricket or anything else until we find out why Islamic leaders did not support the change in the rape laws in Pakistan. They are still trying to subvert them. Muslims love to tell people to get their facts straight. Our facts are straight, so nobody is saying anything good about your religion. People just hate to see the facts brought to light. They want us to believe falsely that their religion is good. We won't be. I don't care if the US invaded Afganistan. Karma had no answer for the women locked in the house there. So women now have a chance. Where is the blame of the Taliban here. Or can Muslims only muster up a fight for faux Israel oppression. 5 million Israelis are the target of 1 billion Muslims. That is comedy right there. I think Karma is a little embarrassed about the US being on their land. Once again talking about human rights is not sensationalist to Americans, which is why Palestinians come hear to whine about Israel.

Kkkarlos, you are the one going apes**t over Pakistan and its nukes. You started mispelling my name and insinuating that I am Pakistani. You're the one who is racist, shivering in your boots about nukes in the possession of brown, Moslem people. As if anyone would care enough about your crappy little island, where women are treated like second-class citizens, to nuke it. I see you don't worry about the nukes possessed by white people in the US, Europe or Israel. Or non-Moslems like the North Koreans.

I don't have any patience with neanderthals like you who can't write properly (what's with all the "u's"), or form a coherent thought. Get some more education and knowledge so that you can stop worrying about Paki nukes. I am done with you.

There would be no wars if all the world played cricket. I seriously mean it.
There is nothing in the world like Cricket.
It is the fastest game.
It is also the slowest game. Depending on the 1,3, or 5 day version.
It is essentially a bat and ball game. But.
The ball is bowled in manner and variations that far exceed baseball simply because in cricket one bounce is allowed.
You can be a slow bowler or a spinner and you can turn the ball both ways. All this is in additon to the Inswinger and outswingers and yorkers.
It is a team event and yet it is a game of individual brillance.
It is a great spectator sport.

It has more books and records ,written about it than any other sport in the world. It has been called the gentlemen's game.
It affects our daily language : for example we say,, its not cricket meaning its not fair. On a sticky wicket.. meaning in a bad situation. Went for a 6.. meaning dismissed with scant respect.
Caught on the fence..unfortunate to be out being so close to the boundary.

Some great teams are from the island nations of the WI,like Jamica and Barbados,Antigua.

Carlos ,
Thanks for your kind words.

Your question about support for Mush is very interesting. It gave me a lot of food for thought. Before I try to answer this question I will try to paint a background picture for you. Democracy in Pakistan has never been allowed to take roots. Every time it has started to grow it was dealt a blow by another dictator. Thus the vibes of democracy combined with accountability never strengthened. Furthermore rather corrupt and weak combination of executive and judiciary developed a culture which we in our language call the "thana culture". Where a person having some contacts with the law enforcement or the judiciary becaomes the leading popular person and could be elected.

Some of the dictators were reasonably popular and did a fairly good job. However none of them were popular enough to win an election. You know that sometimes a third world country with low per capita income and static economy benefits from having a dictator as the decisions can be fast and without the delay involving democratic process. Off-course we understand that being loyal to the country is a pre-requisite for this while a dictator by nature is usually loyal to only himself.

President Musharraf is doing a good job in most of the things. In a very difficult time he has taken the country towards the right direction. He has done what seems to be good for Pakistan. The economy is begining to make waves, Pakistan, on the road to being a failed state looks to be on the way to recovery.

But being a dictator when it comes to a threat to his reign he reacts the only way that a dictator can i.e. with force. Thus if he fights an election he will not win.

I was up the whole night on 7th of November and I saw excellent mind boggling display of the power of democracy (It was new for me and I was fascinated). The way the masses of USA sent a message to their ruler and used the ballot to bring changes. we are unfortunately used to using bullets to bring changes. The day when we change our mindset from bullet to ballot I think we will be on our way to glory.

Carlos i hope i have answred your question ?

George Bush on 9-12-2001 (paraphrased in the prism of his actions!)
I am concerned about America, not Pakistan or Iraq. You guys can go to hell for all I care.

Carma on 12-18-2006
"I am concerned about America, not Pakistan or Puerto Rico. You guys can go to hell for all I care."

carma, i am honored to be involved in a discussion with a man of your caliber
u really gave me so much food for thought!

Ayaz, another very well written post!

u frame your point of view very well, and i enjoy discussing different points of view without some jackass calling me more names
but the way u phrase it makes me not think that we have very divergent views.
the new lease on the future makes perfect sense.....i wonder about the support of Mush (who i was impressed with just for having the sense of fun to go on the daily show, and he held his own very well in that interview!) amongst the general public in Pak....are people happy with him? are they satisfied with the direction he is leading them?
In my view, i think he is doing a good job, i was curious about his domestic support

look at bush, his domestic support has gone down to a pretty low point, where only right wing fanatics still support him with a straight face......and its only a matter of time, one hopes, that Bush will become more and more impotent as domestic support further erodes

Carma, I do not know where to begin answering another emotional post from you that ignores my questions, accuses me of being a JOO or a HINDI, accuses me of advocating the invasion of Pak,

Who the hell are u responding to? i'm baffled, because u won't find any of these opinions in my post

and i'm not PRican, in your warped mind....wow, your inability to formulate a coherent argument and instead respond with insults and wild accusations

do u think it sounds a little racist to say people from PR are lazy and uneducated??
have u seen any posts from me saying nasty things about people from Pak?? u sound like quite the jackass for your blatant racism, then u accuse everyone else of racism

i have not seen any points u have made, i have not seen u defend any of your racist rants, i have just seen you drag down the conversation with your mean-spirited nature

u must be very proud of your nasty name-calling

WHEN did i say the US should invade Pak? are u insane?? i sometimes write my posts at around 5 AM after a long night, and even then, the only flaws are spelling
i don't go ape-sh*t crazy and let an epileptic mind lose control and make wild and crazy accusations!

get a hold of yourself, just because u are online, and people cannot see u is no reason to let your poor upbringing contaminate a reasonable discussion

u also spewed "Unlike you, I am not concerned about Pakistan because I have never been to that part of the world and don't wish to. "

congratulations, u don't care about Pak, u are never going there or have been there
then get the hell out of this discussion! i was under the impression that this was about Pak and people who were interested in the world
that statement u made about not caring sounds so close minded, it could have been made by an "armchair hawk" like bush himself

i'm not Pakistani, i'm not indian, i'm not israeli,
I'm PRican, and i accept my little island for what it is, and can listen to criticism that is reasonable
i don't need to hear your close-minded racism, u little punk (its very easy to be a big tough guy when behind the safety and anonymity of the internet, but its pathetic when people use that to bully!)

u use the KKK in spelling my name, then u ironically state that u don't care about Pak or PR
"You guys can go to hell for all I care."
that is so well written, and such a shining example for all to see the brilliance of your intellect!

u speak of the comedy of errors that has driven the US over the last 6 years, and u display the exact same ignorance and willful stupidity as those u loath!!!!

MAKE SURE U UNDERSTAND THE PREVIOUS 4 LINES (read, contemplate, repeat)

i'm sure that this post will elicit another mel gibson style attack on my nationality, on my motives, on everything except what we are discussing
i think ur a JOO also, pal!

Sami
i don't know anything about cricket, except its wild popularity over there
I was, however, watching the BBC world, and they had a thing about the steriod scandal over in Pak (if that doesn't show u that we're all the same, i don't know what will!)
apparently the Pak version of Barry Bonds got caught doping in some game and he was getting hassled by reporters about his suspension (i think for a few yrs, which sounds a little bit harsh in my view)
but i will say this, that guy looked like one bad-ass dude! not the kinda guy u would want to mess with

Ayaz:
I must compliment you on your effort to answer the question asked by Carlos.
I hope Carlos will be satified now.
I always thought that the three best things about Pakistan were : its rich Culture, the Urdu Ghazal, its Cricket team.

Carlos:
Pakistan is is the NW of the subcontinent.
This is the land of the warrior races that for centuries controlled their own destiny.
And also controlled the destiny of the Indian Subcontinent. Not bad at all. Rather a brilliant past.

Now about the future seriously we have to win the World Cup Cricket.

Ayaz Khan, save your breath. All your calm reasoning is not going to change people's minds about your country being a backward, women-hating, terrorist nation. Not until you can get the world press to be more objective.

Kkarlos, I am American and the reason I am concerned about Puerto Rico is that it's my tax dollars that go towards subsidizing your lazy, uneducated ass. On top of that your countrymen migrate to the mainland and consume even more of my hard earned money in social services.

Unlike you, I am not concerned about Pakistan because I have never been to that part of the world and don't wish to. What I object to is armchair hawks like you advocating the invasion of yet another Muslim country so that we can make more enemies and invite another 9/11. Repugnant people like you, and newspapers like the Washington Post, pushed for the war in Iraq and got Ametica into the worst situation in its history. I am concerned about America, not Pakistan or Puerto Rico. You guys can go to hell for all I care.

And come to think of it, I don't believe you are Puerto Rican either. the only people concerned about Pakistan are Indians and Israelis. I can only guess which one you are.

I had pulled out of the discussion as I saw that it seemed to be degenarating into petty squabbles and going far off from the subject. However I think I will try one more post to answer one very valid question posted by Carlos.

I found the answer which Carlos directed at me quite comprehensive and logical. it clearly depicts that he is not illogical and his queries are based on sound background. There does not seem to be any call for going on a name calling spree. In my opinion sometimes the way you treat people dictates the way you are treated. If we draw him into a logical discussion I am sure he will respond in kind.

We talk about democracy. We talk about freedom of speech but we dont allow anyone to express views which differs from us. I dont remember the name but some body once said about democracy :

"I might not agree with what you say but I will defend with my life your right to say it." Thats democracy, guys think about it.

Carlod might have some opinion differnt from us but it might be honest opinion so instead of jumping down his throat and abusing him maybe we can discuss it and I am sure if we are logical if we prove our point he will agree to it.

Where is Paks furure ? The question really hit me in my gut. I think its one of the most important question that can be asked about a country. I am too small a person to take up the cudgel on behalf of my beloved country as my knowledge level is not that high and I believe that love and patriotism makes you blind. But I will give it a try.

Pakistan I believe is at crossroads. The battle that is being fought in Pakistan is the battle for survival. This is going to decide where Pakistan is going to go in the future and what kind of future they are going to have.

The people of Pakistan are progressive. The religious parties never won an election in Pakistan and never will. The last victory was a manipulated one which shows the United States ( wrongly) what is the alternate to the present leadership and kind of proclaims hands off. Plus the factor of Afghanistan and Iraq played some part in the religious parties getting some votes in a particular part of the country. I am very confident that if we have free democracy in Pakistan without break and it is allowed to go on. Pakistan will become like Turkey.

There are various reasons like dictatorship, war with India ,a corrup leadership, lack of education , no concrete direction, exploitation by so-called leaders which forced Pakistan to go off the tangent. I dont think the past is the issue here so I will not dwell on it.

The above mentioned as well as some other reasons bought Pakistan to almost the level of a failed state just few years back. Than the change in geo-political realities, Pakistans participation in the war against terror, the improvement of relations with India, the perception that Kashmir issue can be solved (thanks to USA for that for forcing India into that)bought about a change that seems to be taking Pakistan into a better situation. I strongly believe if the situation sustains itself and the pace of progress is maintained we might be just might be looking at a future.

What is the future ? A very difficult question to answer as the factors involved are uncountable. People who have not been here, are not acquainted with the dynamics of Pakistan, confuses us with the people of Afganistan , thinks of us as terrorist jungle people conclues that we will just evaporate. I dont think that such a situation will happen.

Its a very atrocius thing to say. But in my perception the war against terror has given Pakistan a new lease of life. The support from USA has put the country on the right path. I believe Pakistan was well advanced on the way of becoming a failed state and the question at that time was not what is the future but is there a future.

I am confident that we have a future. I did not want to put ifs and buts in here but just one is absolutely necessary. If the Kashmir issue is solved and we have better relations with India than we have a good and rosy future. India looks like becoming the next economic giant from this area and we can have some clout as well. If the Kashmir issue lingers on than we will also linger on as an also run but the chances of Pakistan becoming a failed state is no longer there. So there is a future.

Brothers and sisters this is just my opinion, I might be absolutely wrong and this might be completely rubbish, so please dont take my head off. Thanks

Puerto Rico is indeed a pretty bad place.
there is a huge line of people trying to move to the mainland to get the hell out.

but PR might be considered by many to be just a little more advanced than Pak!
we haven't poured millions into trying to build nukes, cuz our tax money is siphoned off due to corruption
but it is still completely different world than Pak
Since u might make your decision to live in Pak, thats fine, i don't give a crap

u can tell yourself that PR isn't better, but even my banana republic of an island is a millenia away from the enchanting land of Pak!
i can't believe that u can take yourself seriously! if i had to live in Pakistan or Puerto Rico??
ask your neighbor in Karachi if he would want to stay there if given a choice
but i can tell u one thing, people in PR are leaving for the mainland, there is NOBODY LEAVING PR FOR PAK, that i can guarantee u
u have a better possibility of people from Pak moving here given the stray nature of the bio-medical field here

what kind of person would pick Pak (a nuclear weapons armed state with repressive laws and open air weapons markets with a lawlee frontier, and corrupt)

or

PR (a corrupt little island, US citizenship to provide welfare and the strength of the US dollar, u can get weapons here too, but people are too relaxed in the caribbean sun and with the beautiful beaches and women to want to use their weapons!

but there are some differences
We aren't talking about PR in this discusion
and i don't delude myself with so much patriotism that it blinds me from the truth i see everyday out the window

i freely admit my island's faults because it is intellecually dishonest to ignore them!

u can't even voice the fact that Pak is a destabilizing force in the region, selling nuclear weapons to anyone with enough money, and an inevitable coup away from utter disaster

try being honest and reasonable in your arguments, it makes them more understandable

and i think you're pretty racist too, but i don't wave that flag, if u think i have a problem with all muslims, you're a little hypersenstive .. but thats also a great way to avoid the topic

i think i've answered all your points in a honest manner

i'm waiting with baited breath to see if u decide to turn over that leaf

Kkkarlos, you would do well to think about the future of your wretched island, Puerto Rico, where you sit under the table quivering about those evil Moslems coming to get ya. How come all the Puerto Ricans can't wait to get away from their crappy island and move to New Yawk?

WHERE IS PAKS FUTURE

SOMEONE TRY TO RESPOND AND ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!

-Carlos, Puerto Rico

All right, try this:

It's where they choose to look for it.

Sami

the sad fact of life is that Pak's future is more of its past

IFY:
Do you know that the Apostle Paul(he was born in what is present day Turkey) was a citizen of Rome, a great privilage in those days of the Great Roman Empire.
Do you know that St.Paul is actually the co-founder of Christianity in the historical and secular sense.
America is the new Rome. No wonder lots of Pauls and Sauls are here too.

To Carlos:
You asked where is Pakistan's future.
Honestly to start with, we would like to win the World Cup Cricket which starts in March. We have a new left arm spinner and with Mohammad Yousuf in middle order batting we have a good chance.

Unless of course if the "Messiah"
who happens to be Jesus in the Koran shows up and saves "the wretched of the earth"(a book by a French doctor in Colonial Algeria). For us its a win-win situation.
I hope that answers your question.

Now Karma, Muslims aren't a very good judge of IQ now are they. 23 countries in the Middle East, and even with the oil, you are not producing the gross domestic product of tiny Italy. Come now. Lets face reality. One again, hard proof that Islam fosters stupidity. As for the SENSATIONALIST arguments made by Ms. arguement Samurai, human rights only grabs the attention of Americans. Islamic leaders were not paying attention. SHAME ON THEM.

If every Palestinian gets the hell out of the United States that you can talk about Amal talking about of Pakistan. If you can advocate for Palestine in the US than you should be able to advocate for women's rights in the US. First of all the US is the most powerful country in the world with Universities that want to hear about oppression. You could not get your voice heard about a random cause in the Middle East but you can in America. Why do people come hear to talk about Palestine, but people are given the accusation of getting "cheap fame" for speaking for women's rights in Pakistan. Please. Nobody cares enough about Islam to take the time to demonize it. But everyone cares about human rights especially when they are subverted by religions, like Islam, so we talk about it. WHICH ISLAMIC PERSON ACTUALLY CARES ENOUGH ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS TO TALK ABOUT THEM. If Pakistan is so great why do Muslims leave to study in America. Better rights. So Americans just believe that everyone should live under the same rights that Americans do since people come from all over the world to live in America. Like like Nania, Sami, and Karma. And everyone else who wants to defend the indefensible Islam.

What do you know about Hiroshima. I hope you know that Islam is similar to the Shintoism that made the US drop the bomb. Why don't you read what Japan was doing before Hiroshima. Raped all of Korea, the same why Islam is doing with Sudan. Murdered all of China, the same why Islam is doing with Indonesian Christians, so they go a bomb dropped on them. Sound familiar ?

When Islam is accused it is not anti-Islamic. Islam must take responsiblity for its own honor killings. When Islam does something, its adherents often try to deflect the blame. India has honor killings but the problem is the whole middle east has honor killings. So NOPE, ISLAM MUST TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY. Islam must change its ways. We are not talking about anybody else right now.

can we stop please stop draging the hindus,jews or americans in to this pak problem.there is no muslim country i would wont to live in ,as they all seem to opress there people.this seems to be a muslim problem.until they learn to moderate there views,and execpt the rule of law,by that i dont mean sharia law.which has its roots 7 seven hundred years ago.muslims need to wake up its 2006.the root cause seems to be an unwillingnes to adapt to changing times

I personally know Ms Ahmed, she is qadiani and trying to create hatered for pakistan and islam.

In Isreal they treat women so badly that they don't allow them to walk on the same side of the street not to mention equal rights. Interesting that media never mentions that unjust.

Ali, i was recounting an episode of the daily show with jon stewart. I didn't portray it as iron-clad evidence that Pak's citizenry would vote the way that the question was phrased, but there is something to be seen in that exchange between Mush and Stewart (a well known joo)

but the point seems to have been lost

where do u see Pakistan's future?

why do i see carma responding with some kind of cut and paste reply he must have used on his last argument??

i asked carma this before, but he must have lost it,
READ IT CLEARLY CARMA, or did the joos destroy your analytical thinking as well?

where do u see Paks future? as a secular state like Turkey, or like a more religious state??

why does nobody want to answer the question?

i've heard every retarded conspiracy theory, don't u think that someone should at least entertain the thought that perhaps the illuminati is not the reason that Lindsey Lohans carpet doesn't match the drapes??

WHERE IS PAKS FUTURE

SOMEONE TRY TO RESPOND AND ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!
i don't need anymore explanations of why clockwise can be considered as proof of an executive decision to hide area 51

WHERE IS PAKS FUTURE???

Publius Ardeche:

Power and pelf, and triumph of technology have nothing to do with Morality.
Perhaps this is why Oppenheimer was so profoundly troubled by his Atom Bomb that he ended up on FBI's list.
People with power become arrogant and ask what do have or what have your earned. Little do they understand:
"They also serve who stand and wait" and sometimes they fight and refuse to roll over.
Although I am a man of Science, I know something bigger and that is human spirit of defiance.
Daniel thrown in the pit of the lions,or Moses in chains before the Pharoah, or Jesus bleeding before Pontius Pilate, or Hussain alone at Karbela or Guru Teg Bahadur before Auranzeb,or Col.Travis (who drew the line in the sand )before the advancing army of Santa Anna. These are some example of men who have changed the world and it was not based on the Triumph of Technology or the Soaring Stock Exchange. The rich and the arrogant will always have superior weaponry and sure they shall be the oppressors.

This article by Samina Ahmad is totally preposterous and is designed to bring Pakistan into disrepute. It is enemy action
because it singles out Pakistan. While we know that such "horror stories" happen every where. Just yesturday I heard about the ongoing trial of a Cult leader(Pastor Johnston/Lambert, NPR), who had raped scores of teenaged girls. What about the guy in Utah with 12 wives and 35 children. So is this just an isolated incident. But if this were to happen in some muslim country people like Samina would be hired.
And about the conspiracy theory that some have alluded to is real.
The West had colonised and plundered and looted Asia and Africa ,and now continues its policy to divided and rule.
Its not just unfounded paronoia.
Tell me where in the world have you seen a country 1/8 the size of its neigbor fight 3 wars. Until Kashmir is resolved according to the will of its people it think this unfortunate situation will continue.

Pakistan has 8 of the 10 tallest mountain peaks in the world and perhaps that is what gives us such fierce sense of independence.

Now to your other point: I believe no man can do enough for his country or for his adopted country as in my case. As long as I make my money honestly and give my children a decent upbringing and a moral compass I would have done my job.

To: Lubna Hassan, USA (just arrived)

First I would like to offer you a warm welcome to America, may it be all you hoped and dreamed it could be, and may you find them to be manifest.

You have chosen to cast yourself into the greatest and most diverse melting-pot of people's and cultures known to mankind.

Here one may truly create one's own reality if you chose not to let it create you,,,attitude is everything, and is an essential part of "life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness".

It is the very tolerance of individual attitudes that gives rise to the concept of freedom of speech as defined by America's founding fathers.

An essential understanding inherent that what may be true by one person's reality, or perception of....may not be true for another...as they've experienced it, or "know" it to be.

Often I find that the lack of understanding in debate is born of generalization of a group, when what is a group but a lot of individuals, each with their own experience of reality.

Different "truths" can become a distraction to the full apreciation of the diversity....the good, the bad,... and how to best address both in this context, as fully inclusive of "the nonnegotiable demands of human dignity" (as our current president put it).

He also said,

"Some worry that it is somehow undiplomatic or impolite to speak the language of right and wrong. I disagree. Different circumstances require different methods, but not different moralities."
-George W. Bush

And it seems to me, as a father of two girls, that raising a family, growing old and watching your kids thrive and prosper in peace, and knowing the joy of this over time, having contributed to its manifestation , having created one's reality , a new generation, ....is the ultimate artistic endeavor.

The heart of the matter is all about family, and attitude. Cultural and individual.
My children have the best of both their Phillipino and Northern European roots, and a solid family structure of support on both ends.
What are my kids cultural attitude? American, and born free.
Free to chose a career path, free to choose a partner, and while I may guide, or set example for a correct path in their "life quest" , it is not for me to control.

It as a sculptor asks the stone what it wishes to become, and the stone manifests the form of its potential.
The sculptor then honors what the stone has revealed itself to be.
It's manifest as art with an attitude of mutual respect.

Aye then, is not the one doing the "honor killing" doing no honor to the art by destroying it?

The art of raising a family included....

As I once stumbled upon these following words, I now pass them on to you as a gift of perspective that covers a lot of moral territory, including "the nonnegotiable demands of human dignity":

Excerpted from a 1967 interview of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. by Arnold Michaelis.

"Today there is no longer a choice between violence and nonviolence. It is either nonviolence or nonexistence. I feel that we've got to look at this total thing anew and recognize that we must live together. That the whole world now it is one--not only geographically but it has to become one in terms of brotherly concern. Whether we live in America or Asia or Africa we are all tied in a single garment of destiny and whatever effects one directly, effects one in-directly.

"I'm concerned about living with my conscience and searching for that which is right and that which is true, and I cannot live with the idea of being just a conformist following a path that everybody else follows. And this has happened to us. As I've said in one of my books, so often we live by the philosophy 'Everybody's doing it, it must be alright.' We tend to determine what is right and wrong by taking a sort of Gallup poll of the majority opinion, and I don't think this is the way to get at what is right.

"Arnold Toynbee talks about the creative minority and I think more and more we must have in our world that creative minority that will take a stand for that which conscience tells them is right, even though it brings about criticism and misunderstanding and even abuse."