Dear SHAAN,

Thank you for your thoughtfulness and the sober and civil manner of communicating your belief in your religion and your respect for other religions and their adherents. Your patience in the face of mindless and vicious insults from a couple of your correspondents bodes well for where you are coming from intellectualy, spiritually and in terms your obviously excellent upbringing. You can do only so much reasoning with those who are blinded by ignorance, bigotry and hatered. Mr. Venkat should look inside his own great religion for tolerance, kindness and civility. He cannot look to great Hindu thinkers like Tagore, Radhakrishnan and Mahathma Ghandi for support in the embarrasing rhetoric he has pursued here. Neither Islam, nor Hinduism stand for bigotry and ignorance.

Venkat

No my friend, people don't fall for your fabrications anymore. The Quran is there for all to see and read and so are the authenticated hadith. Hence your fabrications and mistranslations stick out like a sore thump. In old days such your tactics worked but now they don't.

BTW I can give you passages from the Vedas which make the monotheism of Islam look like a walk in the park. Your Vedas have a even more rigorous version of "Qul Huwallahu Ahad". Hence I suggest that your try being true to your religion rather than waste time on others. I am glad you have found inner peace in your religion. Good luck.

again the same wishful fabrication theory. If it is not fabrication then it is transalation, if it is not transalation what else can it be? As Elst wrote about the typical Islamic way of countering criticism by either arguments from silence or finding fault with pieces of evidence offered by the opposite party. This is cliched way Shaan. No longer people fall for such tricks of the muslim religious trade.

As Sita Ram Goel said "Monotheism of Christianity and Islam is not only an impediment on the path of spiritual progress, it also divides mankind into warring camps by giving currency to a number of hate-filled words such as infidel, kãfir, heretic, idolater, polytheist, etc. What is worse, Monotheism promotes the most degenerate type of idolatry by manufacturing myths and miracles about its all-too-human apostles and prophets, saints and sufis, and by seeing the supernatural in dirt and dross such as the hair, the saliva, the shoe, the shirt, and the shroud. It expects the idols of the infidels to perform the same supernatural miracles, and breaks them when the miracles are not forthcoming. Monotheism thus turns out to be the most abominable superstition" ...

kva dharma-prabhavah tantrah,
kva ca alpa-viSayã-matih,
titîrSuh dustaram mohãd,
uDupena asmi sãgaram.
(I am a small mind when it comes to understanding the social system which has been shaped by Dharma; It is only in a fit of folly that I am attempting to cross the great ocean by means of a ramshackle raft.)

Redrum

Allah commands all to obey the law of the land. That much is very clear in the Quran. Leave alone humans, but harming a plant or an animal/insect is disallowed. While you believe that it "may" be allowed, you play into the hands of those individuals that wrongly believe that is the case. If you want to end this nonsense then pick up the Quran and show the self proclaimed Muslims the passages where Allah has commanded not to be disobey the law of the land.

Additionally, as we say, selective justice is a mockery of justice. Lets us condemn all terrorist (not just a few). The Muslims will know that the world is serious about ending terrorism when we in the western world make serious efforts to put an end to the State terrorism of Israel.

Killing innocent people (regardless of reason) has to end. There should not be any noble reason assigned to the killing of anyone. Israel should not be allowed to kill and assassinate at will for any reason. We should not be in Iraq & Afhganistan killing the innocent and calling it collateral damage. When that day when all killing ends arrives, I am sure Muslims too will volunteer to put an end to the terrorists in their lands.

I know at this point that seems far away. But a journey of a million miles starts with one step. Let us put Blair up at Hague for crime against humanity. Let us send a honest message that we are really against terrorism.

Venkat

Even the devil can quote the verses of the Bible to suit his purpose. Please do not extract passage from the Quran without their context. By doing that you just prove your desperation. You just prove that you are a devilish hate monger.

How can someone take anything you say seriously while you claim (and I paraphrase), "Only Muslim you like is a dead Muslim". At the very least you have so far proven that vile venom exist within you.

As i said before everything you have stated (the outright distortions, the malicious translations and the falsehoods) can be debated point by point in an appropriate forum. If your purpose is to learn, I can volunteer to teach (i.e. show you where you are wrong). If your purpose is to merely spew hate then very few people will be able to help (nonetheless you will need mental help from a shrink).

For the purpose of this thread and in reference to the 72 virgins. You have not shown me a single passage in the Quran talking about 72 virgins. I suggest you do not even waste your time looking for it because none exist. The translation of the Quran where a "virgin" (but still no mention of 72 virgin) is mentioned is a mistranslation. Yes the Quran talks about heaven in very glowing terms. Muslims believe that everything in heaven will be perfect and good. There will not be a single thing in heaven that is wrong or unclean or evil. In that vein Quran talks about companions being pure and clean (in thoughts and manners etc). It is an unkind translation of the Quran that tries to twist the Arabic word that is used for "pure and clean (as in devoid of anything bad)" into "virgin" and gives a sexual context to the passage. This is what hate mongers do, they take a very innocent statement and switch words and then go around town trying to tarnish people and their beliefs.

From a Hadith perspective also there is no mention in the authenticated Hadith about 72 "virgins". I not not talking about Hadith that you and other hate mongers have fabricated. I cannot prevent you from saying what you please but that does not make Hadith.

Even M's have not accused Modi or Advani of rape and plunder the exclusive patented trademark of muslim rulers and mullahs and the founder. Taint is a congenital disease of muslims because they carry the sins of their fathers, mothers and their cult leader. Since Retributive Justice(RJ) has never been experienced by muslims, they thought they could get away with Godhra's like they escaped 1000 year holocaust of India. Now that RJ is being swiftly awarded you are all hopping mad.

Unless Muslims are cured of their congenital deadly disease called ISLAM they cannot be rescued, they have to keep hoping for the X-rated paradise!Sane people wonder how this indefensible cult followers still delude themselves into beliving that their cult cannot be what is historically known about them. The answer is simply the Stockholm Syndrome. Once someone is trapped into this sinister cult he/she tends to defend it not knowing how to accept the real truths. The following verses from quran should make it amply evident to anyone other than one suffering the Stockholm Syndrome the true nature of the "Wondrous Treatment of Women under Islam" but still here are someone who blv otherwise:

II/223: Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate). So go to your tilth as ye will...

IV/34: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other.. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.

IV/15: (For women) If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ...confine them until death claims them.

IV/16: (For Men) If two men among you commit indecency (sodomy) punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful.

XXIV/6-7: As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves , let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies...

As Anwar Shaikh, the author of Islam: An Arab National Movement says:
"It shows the basic doctrine of Islam about womanhood, that is, she is basically crooked, and man has the right to keep her under his constant vigil; she must never be left alone."

"Gazzali, the renowned Islamic thinker summed up the 18 pains that had been visited on Muslim women as a punishment for Eve's transgression in paradise. The list eloquently shows the position of women in Islam and how the social customs were backed up by Islam. Here Islam goes to the extent of saying that even pregnancy and childbirth are punishments from God. Such is the nature of the all merciful Allah!!! " and yet to Allam, Shaan, Tarik and others like them women are treated wondorously under Islam!

to venkat
It is said that a hypocrate use different logic to prove different points.you accept your modi and advani on one point but why not you accept same logic for same point to muslim acts.
this is not your fault as u all have tarined and brought up in shishuniketan of RSS and Modi lab of gujrat.
That is enough for you and your logic.the demand of justice to accept different points on same logic.
And u have not answered my any point,vacuse i know you cannot give as u are folllowing the reall path of hate to make this world hell and put blaim on muslim around the world. a person whther he is christian ,muslim,or other his duty should be to make this world a palce to live not a place to make it hell by following different hated ideology.

Rami,
Another on the mark blog, man you and Bashir
should send the US State dept your resumes!

You can be Mid East specialists, since we have
a Russian specialist, as a Secretary of State,
and she has no clue, of what is going on in Russia.

You just may be what the doctors have ordered
your speaking about Blair this way shows
you have a very high IQ maybe that of Blair
and Bush Combined?

Based on Blair and Britain's heavy hand I cannot fathom why the Gulf is still in love with the Brits? Your right tens of thousands died with this
pushing democracy on a people who have not asked
for it in the way it was delivered.

As is said in an earlier post, Tarik or Allam there is no point in denial. Denial gets one nowhere. For Tarik to imagine that one would be fooled into believing all the crap about the X-rated paradise to exhort me to continue reading is laughable to say the least. As the more one reads the Quran or Hadis the more nauseating it becomes. A year ago I had met an Egyptian Muslim who was mentioning how disillusioned he was with his 'holy book' when he tried to understand it's true import. And I was surprised he did not know much of the book's meaning. Hoping to become more holy by understanding the 'message' instead of just repeating by rote is when he started getting disillushioned. I am happy to report today he is completely cured of his disease after I presented him the book of Ram Swarup UNderstanding Islam through Hadis- Faith or fanatism? If this could be the case of a believer, how could Tariq ever imagine a kufr will just get carried away? There is neither poetry not substance in the quran. It is purely a Terrorist Manual, period.

As to venting spleen on Modi et all, for me it is a good sign. This confirms Modiji is on the rightful path. We hope like Krshna and Rama he will vanquish the Kamsas and the Ravannas. What India needs is a Modi in every state so we can be proud kufr's. If there is any truth in divine retribution then Islam has to pay for the rape of India for the past millenia.

When Prhalada started his battle against his father the demon king (the precursor of latter day Jesus and similar cults) that he alone is worthy of worship, he was alone as the people out of fear, ignorance and lack of thought were behind this demon king but then as is the case throughout history the evil is always vanquished and so would these modern Hiranyakasipus'.

If by woman's emancipation Tarik means, first putting her under the veil and then 'liberating' her virginhood, I totally agree with his contention, perhaps I should have used the term girl child (for woman) instead, who can forget what happened to the latter day's "most favored one" -Ayesha's trauma at the tender age of 8? True Liberation indeed!

Shaan keeps repeating this is proved false that is fabricated but has hardly any references to show off. Can he deny that the Quran does not have the verses quoted above? Just repeating this like a parrot gets you nowhere, maybe you can try politics in Pakistan it may get you votes.

Shaan:

I don’t believe that the Islamofascists believe that they are criminals. It appears to me from their rhetoric that they believe that they are following a higher law than mere man-made law, that Allah commands them to do these things. Like all fanatics, they are certainly aware that the vast majority of us will consider them criminals, but they dismiss this as being of no import, since (in their minds) they are obeying a higher law.

US law and tradition makes allowances for this very sort of thing in the case of conscientious objectors. Some sects (like Quakers) forbid the taking of Human life, even in the case of self-defense. For example, thousands of conscientious objectors who were drafted into the armed forces during have been allowed to return to civilian life free of stigma or penalty. Hundreds of them chose to remain in the armed forces in non-combat roles. A couple of these men (Desmond Doss and Thomas W. Bennett) even received the nation’s highest military award for valor, the Medal of Honor, for heroic action in the face of the enemy, saving the lives of fellow soldiers as combat medics.

However, although conscientious objectors and terrorists both believe that they are following God-given laws in opposition to secular, man-made laws, they are not the same. They are the opposite. Terrorists are aggressors. They intentionally attack and kill innocent bystanders to make their point.

Redrum

The proponents of an ideology that believes in breaking law are called criminals. By identifying them as Muslim you are practicing racism and intentionally tarnishing Islam. There is nothing in Islam which encourages one to break law. Surely we do not associate Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism in a similar situation, and hence why single out Islam ?

I agree that criminals and terrorist need to be confronted by all of humanity and have to be stopped. Nonetheless lets us first have a universal definition of who a terrorist is. Let us not wink and nod when Israel kills hundreds and thousands of Palestinians. Let us not overlook the terror that Iraqis,Afghanis, & Chechnian, feel and suffer. I am very sure when the state terrorism of Israel comes to end, When Muslims in their own land start enjoying the bliss of peace and tranquility and the sweet fruits of freedom, I am sure on that day the Muslim Mob will willingly tear apart the terrorists in their lands. Unfortunately today the water on this issue is somewhat muddied. Surrounded by death and despair, short of the latest technology, suicide bombing (a practice which Islam opposes) sadly has become a deterrent. I agree that this practice is wrong and has to be stopped, but I hope someday we in the civilized world may be able to understand how desperate a human has to be that he would be willing to kill himself. When I first heard of the very American saying, “Give me freedom or give me death” I never imagined a suicide bomber. But I guess they love their freedom too.

Venkat:

You are on the right path. Keep on reading.
Truth is never indebted to a lie.
You will find the truth.
And you will agree that:

1. Of the millions nay the billions born so far on planet earth none has been more successful than Mohammad.
I would like you to name 1 or 2 people who you think were more successful and had more influence than Mohammad.

2. Islam is truly a Universal religion that transends national,ethinic and linguistic boundaries.
Unlike Hinduism it is not limited to India or to people of Indian ancestry.

3. Tell me if you can one man in history of Mankind who has done more for the rights of womenkind than Mohammad.

I shall await your reply.

Some of the responders are in fact behaving like Feral Beasts here!

Venkat & Shaan:

I hesitate to join your Battle of the False Hadiths, because I am not a scholar of Islam. To do so would be to rush into battle without a sword. So I won’t. I don’t really think it matters where the evil ideology of Islamic Supremacism originated, either with the prophet himself or with evil men who proclaim themselves to be his only true followers.

The fact is, this ideology does exist. There are bands of evil men out roaming the world killing in Mohammad’s name. They need to be confronted and they need to be stopped. Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair have confronted them and are attempting to stop them. I believe that the forces of good will eventually prevail and Islamofascism will join other false totalitarian ideologies like Communism in the dustbin of history.

But please ask yourself this, Mr. Khan, if the terrorist ideology is really a twisted and perverted ideology masquerading as true Islam, and if the majority of the umma truly believes that this is so, then that makes the terrorists apostates who must be stopped. But no one stops them. Sure, a few Muslims do stand up to be counted among the righteous. A few Muslims do stand up to denounce the terrorists killing in the name of Islam. Then they run for their lives. They are a tiny minority in a sea of indifference and unspoken approval.

The fact is, the majority of Muslims approve of the terror campaigns. The majority of Muslims approve of bus bombs in Israel. The majority of Muslims approve of market bombings in Baghdad, the beheading of Thai schoolteachers and the firebombing of Indonesian churches. Only with the support of the masses can the guerrilla survive – Mao Tse Tung got at least that much right. Without the support of the mass of the people, the insurgency and the terrorist cell withers away and dies on the vine.

John:

Nice post. Yes, there is a place on Earth where Muslims are not shedding blood. Right here in good old US of A. Remember what I said about the support of the masses? The vast majority of American Muslims do not support terrorism. As a result, we have seen remarkably few successful plots here in this country. When foreign fanatics with foreign financial backing take over a mosque here in this country, the umma reject them and drive them out. When misguided youths, fed dreams of fiery martyrdom and 72 virgins from Internet imams start spouting radicalized nonsense, older and wiser Muslims (like their parents) intervene and shut them down. When CAIR was a genuine civil rights organization, it had widespread grassroots support from the American Muslim community. Now that it has become a foreign-sponsored pro-terrorist front, its membership has declined by 90%. Islamofascism has no support here, and we have few terrorists, just a few mentally-disturbed wanna-be’s that even our defanged security services can roll up.

to venkat
after reading your comment one thing i can say that you suffer from communal mentality.if you not then answer me on the following points.
1 how many of you writing againts mr modi ,bal thakre,advani,murli joshi,uma bharti,vinay katiyar.
2.how mnay of you advocate for cause of backward people of india,when a person is hindu then he can get reservation in sc/st/but when a person changed his religion into chritianity or islam then he cannot get reservation.what this show?the real justice.
3 Islam revealed to human being to protect the world from devil like ....and for this there is need a brave people .so islam ask folower to not fear from devil but fight .
4.if you love peace then you will sure ask your self why america and allies invaded iraq?what are they doing?if you justify this then you have to also accept that nadir shah,babur all came to make peace in idnia and establish the art of goverment.
6and by siting all these surah what you want to show?your knowledge or bigotary?
7.About osama and other honestly tell me who trained them?muslim people or america and his allies.
that is enough for u.

mr blair comment is not new to the media cirlce.It is habit of the politician that they accuse media in case of revealation of the crime done by them.the whole world knows that how mr blair and his fellow mislead the world people and uno security counsil. if we want to see justice prevail then led two master in court of Hague to face the charges crime against humanity.mr blair who used to give moral lesson to islamic world and human rights lesson must learn how to face the bell of justice which is also appear in the form of media revealation.It is really matter of concern that the moral lecturer gives lesson to other and play the game with blood of iraqi and afghnai people.A true leadrer always face the reality and reality is that br blair commited crime against humanity and lied about the iraq weapon of mass destruction and violated the geneva convention about the head of the state conduct by capturing saddam and executing him.In the light of all mr blair should be brave to face the charges of feral beast.

Venkat

I know of the sources you talk about. Repeating a source which has been proven false does not make it a fact.

Also I am happy to debate you on some forum which is suitable for such discussion. Why disrupt this thread ? There is a time and place for all things. This is the place for something else.

I assure you that when we discuss the issues that you have raised I will do so without insulting Hinduism.

The war is only wanted by the religious radicals on each side of the fence. The Fundamentalists both Christian and Islamic. No one else wants this war but war has a way of feeding itself which is an unfortunate fault of men.

For Shaan's benefit, here are the quranic verses on houris and pearl like boys since Shaan doubts the Hadis to be fabricated. So if Shaan still claims CIA did this then we caqn safely conclude that quran is a work of CIA since he does not blv the houris portion or is it a anger against allah for not providing the X rated paradise on earth itself?

Koran 78:31
As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high- bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup.

Koran 37:40-48
...They will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches.

Koran 44:51-55
...Yes and We shall wed them to dark-eyed houris. (beautiful virgins)

Koran 52:17-20
...They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris (virgins) we shall wed them...

Koran 55:56-57
In them will be bashful virgins neither man nor Jinn will have touched before.Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"

Koran 55:57-58
Virgins as fair as corals and rubies. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"

Koran 56:7-40
...We created the houris (the beautiful women) and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand.. "

Koran 55:70-77
"In each there shall be virgins chaste and fair... Dark eyed virgins sheltered in their tents whom neither man nor Jin will have touched before..

On Pearl like boys:
Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.

Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.

Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.

Shaan here are some excerpts from the quran:

(Koran 18:86)
Till, when he [the traveller Zul-qarnain]
reached the setting-place of the sun,
he found it going down into a muddy spring...

(Koran 18:90)
Till, when he reached the rising-place of the
sun, he found it rising on a people for whom
WE had appointed no shelter from it.

(Koran 67:5)
And We have (from of old), adorned the lowest
heaven with lamps, and we have made such
(Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans...

(Koran 37:6-8)
We have indeed decked the lower heaven with
beauty (in) the stars, (for beauty) and for
guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans.
(So) they should not strain their ears in the
direction of the Exalted Assembly but be
cast away from every side.

(Koran 37:6-8)
And He has made subject to you the sun and the moon,
both diligently persuing their courses; and the
night and the day has He (also) made subject to you.

(Koran 21:31)
And We have set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them

(Koran 16:15)
And He has cast onto the earth firm mountains lest it should shake with you..

(Koran 31:10)
He has created the heavens without supports that you can see, and has cast onto the earth firm mountains lest it should shake with you..

(Koran 10:5)
It is He who made the sun to be a shining glory and
the moon to be a light...

I have not commented but just reproduced some verses. Are these fabricated?

As to houris and pearl like boys don't witch hunting of the CIA for this Ram Swarup's book was published much before the Afghan war if I remember right sometime in the 50's or 60's. So your wishful thinking straight away goes for a six. houris were not only promised but also pearl like boys shades of descendants of the tribe from the biblical SODOM?

Incidentally when the Americans were hesitating to continue the war during the Ramadan month in Afghanistan it was my posting in the CNN's wwebsite that made Americans to shed their inhibitions and bomb the talibanis and Al qedas. Please refer http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/mohwar1.html

1) Massacre of unarmed merchants during sacred month
Date: Late January(Rejeb), 623 A.D.
Place: Nakhla
Victims: 4 Merchants from Quraysh tribe of Mecca, the Tribe to which Mohammed himself belonged

Four UNARMED merchants were travelling to Mecca to sell their goods consisting of raisins, honey and animal skins. It was the holy month of Rejeb which was considered sacred for trade in Arabia. It was a point of honor that any form of warfare or violence was strictly forbidden in this month. Mohammed's gang attacked the helpless men from behind and stabbed two of them to death. They plundered all the goods as booty and Mohammed got one fifths of the share.

This shows the utter lack of morals or scruples on Mohammed's part. The Prophet of Islam did not possess a shred of pity or kindness, or the slightest sense of justice. He cold-bloodedly murdered two innocent people who had never done him any harm and did not even know him! All this was done in a month that the Prophet himself declared was a sacred month in which no warfare should take place. Mohammed was obviously motivated by nothing but hatred and greed.

Conveniently divine revelations came down from Allah that absolved him of all the guilt.

Koran 2:216
"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

Here Mohammed is completely removing all blame from himself, for having started the fighting. The most insidious and devilish implication of this verse is that Allah is completely justifying Mohammed's murder of the innocent Meccans. Over and above this Mohammed is conveniently implying that warfare is hateful to him, but he participated in it because it was ordained by Allah! What sacrifices the "Apostle of Peace" had to make!

Koran 2:217
"They question you (O Mohammed) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great transgression but to turn men from the way of Allah and to disbelive in Him and the inviolable place of worship and to expel its people thence is a greater transgression, for persecution is worse than killing"

Here Allah is clearly saying that to kill or create warfare in the sacred month of Rejeb is a very grave offence, but to justify his own violation of Allah's rules, Mohammed comes up with the idea that since the people killed were unbelievers, it was perfectly okay! The reason given for the horrific murder of the innocent Meccans, is the fact that they did not believe in Mohammed's version of God. How much more tolerant and kind could the "Great Prophet" be!

2) Slaughter of Meccans who came to defend their caravans
Date: March (Ramadan) 17, 623 A.D
Place: The well of Badr
Victims: 70 merchants from Quraysh Tribe of Mecca, The Quraysh army which came to defend them

The merchandise being carried by this caravan was worth more than 50,000 Gold Dinars. Mohammed ganged up all the criminals of Medina and set out to raid the caravan with 300 men. The Meccans got word of the raid and sent out an army to protect the caravan. Throughout the entire battle Mohammad cowered in a hut which his men made for him. There he cried and prayed with feverish anxiety. At one point he came out of the hut and threw pebbles in the enemy's direction, screaming "Let evil look on your faces!" and "By him who holds my soul in his hands, anyone who fights for me today will go to paradise!" The Muslims killed over two hundred and took seventy prisoners. All seventy of the prisoners were ransomed, and any prisoner who did not fetch a ransom had his head chopped off.

Mohammed was gratified at the sight of his murdered victims. After the battle, he sent his followers to look for the corpse of Abu Jahal, one of the Meccans who had criticised him openly. When his corpse was found,they cut off the head and threw it down at Mohammed's feet. The "Apostle of peace" cried out in delirious joy, "Rejoice! Here lies the head of the enemy of Allah! Praise Allah, for there is no other but he!" The Prophet then ordered a great pit to be dug for the bodies of the innocents to be dumped. The Muslims then proceeded to hack the corpses limbs into pieces. As the bloodied mass of bodies was being thrown into the pit, a feverishly excited Mohammed shreiked, " O People of the Pit, have you found that what Allah threatened is true now? For I have found that what my Lord promised was true! Rejoice All Muslims!" One of the prisoners taken was the defiant Al Nadr Ibn al Harith, who had earlier taken Muhammad's challenge of telling better stories than him. Muhammad ordered Ali to strike off Nadr's head in his presence, so he could watch and exult in the pleasure of beheading the man who had insulted him. Another prisoner Uqba ibn Abi Muait was decapitated in front of the Prophet. Before being killed the prisoner cried out pitifully "O Prophet, who will look after my children if I should die?" The "Great Prophet of the Religion of Peace" coldly spat out "Hellfire", as the blade came down and spattered his clothes with Uqba's blood.

This time Mohammed needed a revelation that would not only absolve him of all the guilt for murdering so many innocent people, but also give him the "divine" right to get a huge share of the plundered booty. Quite a few revelations magically appeared after the battle of Badr.

Koran 8:65
"O Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you 20 steadfast,they will overcome 200 and if there be of you a 100, they shall overcome a 1000, because the disbelievers are a folk without intelligence"

This Sura clearly exposes Islam to be a religion that not only encourages violence but actually makes it a sacred duty for Muslims to kill anyone who does not believe in the Muslim version of religion. Not only is the "All forgiving Allah" exhorting his followers to kill anyone who is not Muslim, but he is also saying that all non-Muslims are so stupid that they will be unable to defend themselves and therfore deserve death!

Koran 8:67-68
"It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

This verse is in reference to the prisoners that Mohammed held for ransom after the battle. Allah the "Merciful" is saying that they should all have been killed! In addition, Allah is conveniently commenting that whatever loot Mohammed has plundered is "lawful and good" because it was done in service to Allah. So murder, rape, plunder and destruction are all perfectly fine with Allah as long as they are done in the name of Islam! Mohammed is also insidiously making himself seem very kind for having spared the lives of the prisoners, when in fact he only let them live so he could get more money from the Ransom for them. In today's world this is called "Terrorism" of the worst kind.

Shaan I'll give one reference on quran http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/koran.html. This site is maintained by an apostate muslim Zulfiqar Ali Khan. Shan you are welcome to join this tribe of Anwar Sheiks, you will doing yourself a world of good. It is never too late to question one's own beleif systems.

Firstly with so much venom being poured out on Blair for his joining (the Halliburton's)war on Iraq I see no reason why I should not go the root cause of the conflict which is simply a cult vs cult war or a BOOK vs another similar BOOK each claiming it is the final word on everything.

Shaan your lies do no good to your lost cause. Did you read Ram Swarup's to comment. Your pre-determined attitude says it all. Why is it the Deobandi mullahs could not prove that Ram Swarup's was a fabrication in Indiaq's SC? With so much support from the Congress party's lunatic fringe and with Indira Ghandy's "committed" judges at that time, the whole book would have been banned and Ram Swarup put behind bars for life if the mullahs could prove it. Instead they went out of the court with heads hanging and their tails tucked between their legs. Simply because the author could prove the authenticity of his work he could not be silenced. If one has to accept your fond hope that the real truth maybe fabricated then the Hadith itself has to be scrapped because the one which the unbiased accept as Hadith contains nothing other than the rantings of a sordid cruel, sadistic freak.

Even now it is not too late why don't your spies in India not try again? As to you asking me to read the terrorist manual it shows your islamic ignorance when the Quran specifically forbidden to be read by kufrs esp those proud sane ones who refuse to accept that Pagy was a prophet or the book is holy.

I should thank the Australian Moses for giving the edited portions of this book which I shall save for my records.

M's should read the footnotes of Shri Swarup's book to get an idea of his sources. If Shaan says all of these are fabricated one can only sympathise with him because we then know that he actually knows the TRUTH but is wishing them not to be since he is born into this cult and does not know how to escape from it's clutches.

Venkat

Since the dawn of Islam people have been fabricating Hadith. Majority of the hadith out there is pure baloney. Hence what you say using false Hadith makes no difference to a Muslim. I advise you to study authenticated hadith (i.e Hadith which have been via a rigorous process accept as true).

Better still study the Quran if you want to understand Islam.

I stand by my statement that the 72 Virgin's genesis lies in unauthenticated Hadith which was dusted off by the CIA and used to charge up the Mujahedeens in the fight against Russia.

In any case this thread is not the forum to vent your hatred for all things Muslim.

Good information Venkat, Best wishes from Austarlia. Let me give the exact portions that were asked to be deleted sent to me by a friend:

Pg 26-27
is Muhammad appointed Abu Bakr during his last illness (832-844).

THE FIRST MOSQUE: FACING THE QIBLA
Somebody asked Muhammad, which was the mosque “first set up on the earth.” He answered that it was the Ka’ba. The second one was the great mosque in Jerusalem (1056, 1057).
In the beginning, when Muhammad was trying to cultivate the Jews, he prayed facing their temple in Jerusalem. But later on, the direction (qibla) was changed to Mecca. One tradition says: “We prayed with the Messenger of Allah towards Bait-ul-Maqdis for sixteen months or seventeen months. Then we were made to change our direction towards the Ka’ba” (1072). The followers had no difficulty and adjusted to the new change with alacrity. Some people were praying their dawn prayer and had recited one rak’ah. Someone told them that the qibla had been changed. “They turned towards the new qibla in that very state” (1075).
The translator assures us that “this was a change of far-reaching importance. . . . It strengthened the loyalty of the Muslims to Islam and the Prophet” (note 732). It must have made a strong appeal to Arab nationalism. .

ALLAH ALLOWS MUHAMMAD TERROR AND WAR BOOTY
While giving his opinion of the first mosques, Muhammad makes some interesting disclosures. He does not deny that the Jews and the Christians also had their prophets but adds: “I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of the enemies); spoils have been made lawful to me . . . ; I have been sent to all mankind; and the line of prophets is closed with me” (1062). The whole earth is also made a “mosque” for him and given to him as a legitimate place of prayer for him and his (1058). This is the idea of the world as a “mandated territory” bestowed on the believers by Allah.

We see here that European imperialism with all its rationalizations and pretensions was anticipated by Islamic imperialism by a thousand years

Page 65
MUHAMMAD’S MARRIAGES
Some incidents relating to the Prophet’s marriages with Safiyya (3325-3329) and Zainab hint Jahsh are mentioned (3330-3336).

SAFIYYA
Muhammad’s wars and raids not only fed his coffers, they also swelled his harem. Safiyya, a beautiful girl of seventeen years, was the wife of the chief of a Jewish clan inhabiting Khaibar. Muhammad’s custom was to make surprise attacks. Khaibar was invaded in the same fashion. Anas narrates: “We encountered the people at sunrise when they had come out with their axes, spades and strings driving their cattle along. They shouted in surprise: Muhammad has come along with his force! The Messenger of Allah said: Khaibar shall face destruction” (4438). There is even a QurAnic verse relating to Muhammad’s sudden sweep on the valley and the fate of its people: “But when it descends [nazala] into the open space, before them evil will be the morning for those who were warned” (QurAn 37:177).
In any case, many people were butchered, and many others were taken prisoners. “We took Khaibar by force, and there were gathered the prisoners of war,” according to Anas. Safiyya, the daughter of Huyayy b. Akhtab, the chief of the Quraiza and al-NazIr, was one of them. Her husband, KinAna, was put to a cruel death (3325).4
Anas continues: “She first fell to the lot of Dihya in the spoils of war.” (Incidentally, Dihya was strikingly handsome. Muhammad used to see Gabriel in his form.) But Anas adds that people “praised her in the presence of Allah’s Messenger and said: ‘We have not seen the like of her among the captives of war’ ” (3329). Muhammad took her away from Dihya, Gabriel or no Gabriel, and even took her to his bed the same night her husband was killed, in violation of his own command, which enjoined the believers to wait until the beginning of the next menstrual cycle in their captive women.5

RIHANA AND JUWAIRIYA

Page 66

In the division of the booty, she fell to the lot of SAbit ibn Qays. He set her ransom price at nine ounces of gold, beyond the power of her relatives to pay. ’Aisha’s

Page 67
He was saved, and she was immediately put to death, according to some authorities (TabaqAt, vol. II, pp. 252-255).

ZAINAB BINT JAHSH
Here we shall mention another Zainab, whose affair was not cruel but scandalous. She was the wife of Muhammad’s adopted son, Zaid, and therefore, in the eyes of the Arabs, as good as his own daughter-in-law. Muhammad went to her house when her husband was away, saw her in a state of semi nudeness, and was aroused. When Zaid heard about it, he offered to divorce her, but Muhammad, fearing a public scandal, told him to keep his wife for himself. At this point Allah spoke and decided the matter (QurAn 33:36-40). He chided Muhammad for telling Zaid, “Retain thou in wedlock thy wife,” and for hiding in his heart “that which God was about to make manifest.” Allah told Muhammad: “Thou feared the people, but it is more fitting that thou should fear God”; and He revealed His plan, present and future, to Muhammad thus: “We joined her in marriage to thee, in order that in future there may be no difficulty to the believers in the matter of marriage with the wives of their adopted sons.” He now also addressed Himself to the Muslims of all generations: “It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by God and His Apostle to have any option about their decision. If anyone disobeys God and His Apostle, he is indeed clearly on a wrong path.”
Thus reassured, Muhammad made Zaid himself go to his wife with his marriage proposal. “Allah’s Messenger said to Zaid to make a mention to her about him” (3330). The marriage ordered from above was celebrated with unusual festivity. “Allah’s Messenger gave no better wedding feast than the one he did on the occasion of his marriage with Zainab” (3332).

DIVORCE (TALAQ)
Page 102

“their [enemies’] land, and their dwellings, and their property for an inheritance” (QurAn 33:26-27).
In fact, providing opportunities for easy booty was Muhammad’s way of rewarding his followers. Denying such opportunities to the lukewarm was his way of punishing them. For example, the desert Arabs did not participate in his expedition to Hudaibiyeh, where resistance was expected to be stiff. Muhammad told them that the next time, when it would be easy to win booty, they would say, “Permit us to follow you,” but he would answer, “Ye shall by no means follow us.” The recalcitrant should earn their reward the hard way. Allah Himself directed Muhammad to “say to the desert Arabs who lagged behind” that “ye shall be called out against a people given to vehement war. . . . then if you obey, Allah will give you a goodly hire” (QurAn 48:16).
Muhammad was as good as his word.

Page 174-175

Allah has given you a better one in her stead?” (5976).

THE MERITS OF ’AISHA
The chapter on ’Aisha is the longest. A daughter of AbU Bakr, she was betrothed to Muhammad when she was six years old and he was fifty. The marriage was consummated when she was nine. Muhammad had a very soft spot for her. “The excellence of ’Aisha as compared to women is that of TharId [a dish of very thin bread soaked in a broth of meat and sometimes vegetables which Muhammad very much relished] over all other food,” Muhammad said (5966).
He told her sentimentally: “I saw you in a dream for three nights when an angel brought you to me in a silk cloth and he said: Here is your wife” (5977). On another occasion, he told her: “I can well discern when you are pleased with me and when you are annoyed with me. . . . When you are pleased with me you say: ‘No, by the Lord of Muhammad,’ and when you are annoyed with me, you say: ‘No, by the Lord of IbrAhIm’ ” (5979).
According to a hadIs on ’Aisha’s own authority, “People sent their gifts when it was the turn of ’Aisha seeking thereby the pleasure of Allah’s Messenger” (5983). A time-honored practice. When people want to please an official or any person in authority, they try to please his son or his wife or even his butler, though a strict code might call this bribery.
’Aisha also narrates what modern newsmen would call a human-interest story. The other wives of Muhammad sent Fatima, his daughter, to him. Muhammad saw her when “he was lying with me in my mantle,” ’Aisha narrates. FatIma told Muhammad: “Allah’s Messenger, verily, your wives have sent me to you in order to ask you to observe equity in case of the daughter of AbU QuhAfa.” “O daughter, don’t you love whom I love?” Muhammad replied with a counter question. She said yes; and having been thus silenced, she went back. The wives wanted her to go again but she said: “By Allah, I will never talk to him about this matter.”
Then they chose Zainab to represent them. Zainab too was a favorite wife of Muhammad, someone “who was somewhat equal in rank with me in the eyes of Allah’s Messenger,” as ’Aisha puts it. Muhammad received her “in the same very state when Fatima entered.” She too told him that the other wives had sent her to seek "equity in the case of the daughter of AbU QuhAfa.” Muhammad made no answer. But, in the words of ’Aisha, “she [Zainab] then came to me and showed harshness to me and I was seeing the eyes of Allah's Messenger whether he would permit me. Zainab went on until I came to know that Allah’s Messenger would not disapprove if I retorted. Then I exchanged hot words until I made her quiet. Thereupon Allah’s Messenger smiled and said: She is the daughter of AbU Bakr” (5984).
Another hadis throws some more light on Muhammad’s conjugal life and also on the life of the women around him.

Shaan, Neither was the world born with a single being called Adam "created" by a very jealous someone 'up' there whose dim wit thinking was so flawed that first he creates one man and on second thoughts create some EVE out of his ribs (did this chap run out of 'construction' materials?) and then forgot the art of 'creation'. How were humans formed? From Cain vs Eve combination?

To know where in the ("authentic and verified") Hadith, is there mention of 72 houris and pearl like boys for the jehadis. Read Understanding Islam Through Hadis : Religious faith or Fanaticism? by Sri Ram Swarup (http://www.bharatvani.org/books/uith/).

The Deoband terrorists went to the Supreme Court of India to get this book banned so civilized people don't get to know the truth about this evil cult. (Is this why the Muslims forbid others to read their book?). The SC of India allowed the book to be published except for a few Hadis and they are:

1. Hadis 1072 on early Qibla (the direction of prayer)before the Tomb of Gods were captured at Makkah.

2. 1058 on entire world being gifted as a mosque to Pagy;

3. Hadis on Mohd wives Safiyya (3325-3329) and Zainab hint Jahsh are mentioned (3330-3336).
Hadis 5933 to 5984 on the merits of Ayesha.

The rest of the book was accepted as a true transalation of the hadis. It is not known if the SC had given such a ruling fearing a mad uprising by the insane cultists who cant bear an honest interpretation. We know this is the reason why the Calcuttah Quran petition (http://www.bharatvani.org/books/tcqp/) seeking to ban the Quran was hastily rejected on the grounds it was a terrorist manual.

The duplicity of the Muslim community deserves the scorn of all educated persons. While I certainly share the conviction that America's involvement in Iraq was a tragic mistake, I by no means accept the colossally ignorant proposition that the Western nations are responsible for all the bloodshed in the Middle East.

It is very difficult to listen to the drivel about American atrocities while the Islamic militias in Sudan slaughter millions without so much as a peep of disapproval by Muslim peoples. A ring of fire is burning all around the Muslim nations, consuming its own peoples in flames of hatred and contempt for human life. Inhuman monsters capture video of decapitations and torture, fodder for the child martyrs who willingly blow themselves up for things they scarcely understand, unwitting dupes of petty tyrants who dream of building their petty sheikdoms.

Muslims blame Americans as they set their own homes on fire and slaughter their own children. Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Iran, Iraq, Bosnia, Kashmir, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Sudan, Libya, Chad, Somalia, the Philippines. Is there any where on the planet where Islam is not shedding blood?

To all those who blame the Arabs for the Iraq disaster, here's an invitation to use your imagination.
Imagine that in your own country, all civil servants were fired, including police officers and the entire army - no one to call if you're mugged. Ammunition dumps were opened up so that criminal gangs could help themselves. Only the blatantly incompetent could get a job in government. Corruption was encouraged and anyone who complained or asked questions was put in jail. And to make the picture even brighter, an occupying force gave the example of torture and abuse.
What would your country look like, five years later? What would Germany or Japan have looked like five years after WWII if the US had behaved back then the way it behaves today?
Give the Arabs a break. They're nice and hospitable people, except when people with no respect for other people's culture step on their toes all the time.

Redrum

This world did not begin on the day Tony Blair was born or on 9/11 or on the day Iraq war started. People seem to have amnesia on history. The world existed even before 9/11. For quite a while Middle East and Muslim nations have been destabilized for various purposes by the West. Nationalistic as well moderate leaders have been assassinated. Progress blocked, freedom compromised and Islam tarnished. Middle East is the way it is because it is suits Western purposes to keep it under developed and in chaos. It is a hell hole because of the West.

Given the long history of the West in the ME, the common Muslim man in the street wants to know why they should they believe anything about Saddam (for example) when the guys making all the allegations are those that lied about WMD. Why did Saddam have to be hung while Churchill who also used Mustard Gas on the Kurds was never held accountable? Why were the atrocities that Saddam committed in his desire to keep Iraq united and stable any worse than the atrocities that the west is committing today? Why is collateral damage only allowed to the West and Israel but was not allowed to Saddam ?

Show me where the “Quran” or the authentic (& verified) “Hadith” says anything about “72 Virgins”. This whole concept of 72 virgins is based on weak and corrupted Hadith that was given legs by the West in order to inspire the Mujahedeen to fight against Russia. Perhaps it was Tony Blair’s figment of imagination. Please do not assign that bull to the Muslims. We have no such concept in our Quran or in the authentic and verified Hadith. Unfortunately the West is suffering from the 72 virgin blowback, a fire lit to burn someone else is burning us up.

Colorado Kool Aid (nice moniker, dude!) is correct, but he made his point badly and in a bigoted manner. The Mideast is a horrible, violent place. It was a horrible, violent place before Mr. Blair’s dad met Mrs. Blair. It was a horrible, violent place when little Tony was a school kid, etc. It was a horrible, violent place when he took office, and it’s still a crummy place to raise kids. I don’t think it’s Tony Blair’s fault and - I’m going out on a limb here - it wasn’t his responsibility to fix it.
This world did not begin on the day Tony Blair was born or on 9/11 or on the day Iraq war started. People seem to have amnesia on history. The world existed even before 9/11. For quite a while Middle East and Muslim nations have been destabilized for various purposes by the West. Nationalistic as well moderate leaders have been assassinated. Progress blocked, freedom compromised and Islam tarnished. Middle East is the way it is because it is suits Western purposes to keep it under developed and in chaos. It is a hell hole because of the West.
Given the long history of the West in the ME, the common Muslim man in the street wants to know why they should they believe anything about Saddam (for example) when the guys making all the allegations are those that lied about WMD. Why did Saddam have to be hung while Churchill who also used Mustard Gas on the Kurds was never held accountable? Why were the atrocities that Saddam committed in his desire to keep Iraq united and stable any worse than the atrocities that the west is committing today? Why is collateral damage only allowed to the West and Israel but was not allowed to Saddam ?
Is Tony Blair rampaging through the streets of Gaza with a machine gun in his hand and dreams of 72 virgins in his noggin?
Show me where the “Quran” or the authentic (& verified) “Hadith” says anything about “72 Virgins”. This whole concept of 72 virgins is based on weak and corrupted Hadith that was given legs by the West in order to inspire the Mujahedeen to fight against Russia. Perhaps it was Tony Blair’s figment of imagination. Please do not assign that bull to the Muslims. We have no such concept in our Quran or in the authentic and verified Hadith. Unfortunately the West is suffering from the 72 virgin blowback, a fire lit to burn someone else is burning us up.

You don’t have to be evil to know evil and you don’t to be a beast to know one. Just study psychology at the university, you would learn a lot about liars.

Bush did not know what is meaning of Geneva Convention. He thought it was too vague. He did not understand and never seek an effort to comprehend. He decided (he is the decider) to redefine the Geneva Convention, and therefore by calling innocent civilians captured in foreign countries as Enemy combatant, he could authorize torture of these people and he could circumvent the Geneva Convention. Based on this, you could judge for yourself the amount of IQ that he has.

Blair and Bush had used the media to propagate hatred and lies. After 9/11, both were able to unite the people in democratic countries by GRIEF, and later unite the people by FEAR. Yes, the fear of Muslims, the fear of WMD, and the fear of terrorism. They made use of FEAR to rally against another country like Iraq that has not attacked either UK or USA, and to torture and kill and it is a definite violation of Geneva Convention. To succeed in getting a popular support in a democracy (majority votes win such as Republican controlled Congress in 2003), FEAR was used to unite against their common “ENEMY” and the media was the tool to propagate hate and rally support.

Blair graduated from Oxford University and was a lawyer and why would he not know about Geneva Convention violation. The answer is FEAR. Bush is a moron and he graduated from Harvard University, he is just a puppet of the rich people in America.

Colorado Kool Aid (nice moniker, dude!) is correct, but he made his point badly and in a bigoted manner. The Mideast is a horrible, violent place. It was a horrible, violent place before Mr. Blair’s dad met Mrs. Blair. It was a horrible, violent place when little Tony was a school kid, etc. It was a horrible, violent place when he took office, and it’s still a crummy place to raise kids. I don’t think it’s Tony Blair’s fault and - I’m going out on a limb here - it wasn’t his responsibility to fix it.

Is Tony Blair rampaging through the streets of Gaza with a machine gun in his hand and dreams of 72 virgins in his noggin? Is Tony Blair driving a car bomb into a Baghdad market full of people buying food for their children? Is Tony Blair hiding missiles under Lebanese houses? Is Tony Blair hiding Osama Bin Laden in a goat shed? Is Tony Blair sitting in a gold-encrusted desert palace writing checks to support hate-spewing imams? No, no, no, no, and no.

Jim, nice post. Venkhat, you are a bigot, knock it off.

Venkat

Where you born a bigot or just stumbled upon it by accident?

How many of these 'brave" journalists esp of the M kind ever written against the likes of Osama, Arafat, Bhutto, Yahya Khan, Zia ul Haq, Ayub Khan, Nadir Sha, Aurangzeb, Ghaznavi, Mahmoud Ghori, or Pagyamber Mohd in the same way.

Only when they write critical articles on these characters can we call them balanced, otherwise it is pure hog-wash (word 'hog' deliberatley used) and such articles are just written to protect their indefensible cult that has caused untold miseries throughout every moment of it's existence. Just shut up modern terrorists in sheep's clothing, while Osama uses a gun you use your pen for the same effect-proselytisying your evil cult.

It is a shame that a man like Blair, responsible for so many deaths in the Middle East, is still allowed to play holier than thou.

Feral beasts? I think a feral beast is someone who has nis nose attached to Bush's butt and can smell nothing else. British people demonstrated in hundreds of thousands and worldwide there were more demonstrations against Iraq War II than anytime in the history of mankind. Why would you turn against your people and end up being responsible for murdering close to a million people in a war that was b.s. from day one. Feral beast indeed. Wake up, poodle man...

Mr. Rami G Khouri:
You took the words right out of my mouth. When I hear the Bush Administration demonizing the "enemy" I often think they are actually giving a good description of themselves.

Bush sez speak
Blair sez bow wow
100,000 die
Press sez hear that,
know this,
Blair sez other dogs mean
Cheney sez frick them
Bush sez libral press
Blair sez bow wow
Bush sez nice puppy
Bush sez Labor Party good
Bush sez american left bad
Blair sez bow wow
death count rises
Bush sez front lines me
ev'ry day
Bair sez bow wow.

Dear Mr. Kool-Aid,

Could you please refrain from your ranting? It is embarrassing to the great state of Colorado and to whichever company it is who makes "kool-aid" to have you write bigoted nonsense.

Our country has blood all over its hands right now, thanks to the leadership of Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair. We are in no position to lecture anyone else about morality and human potential. What we need is to step back, breathe deeply, and have a humane discussion with everyone in the region - even those we consider "terrorists."

Mr. Blair should know better - he helped this happen in Northern Ireland. Surely no one would have predicted that Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams would be coalition partners in a new Northern Irish government. We can make it happen eventually in the Middle East if we recognize the essential humanity of ALL sides and don't continue to mask our selfish interest with false claims of altruism. How much more "help" from the West can the people of the Middle East stand?

Chuck

I have a hard time with anyone blaming Tony Blair for the hell-hole that is the Middle East. It is the fault of people like you who live in the Middle East that it is a hell-hole. When will the people responsible for the hatred, the legacy of murder, the desire to make people bend to your will or face death admit that their culture is debased, admit that YOU are responsible for your fate? What a collection of curs you are for not facing up to the legacy of death that you are resonsible for. What a waste of human potential you are. You are doomed to a life of futililty. What beasts you all are. I laugh at your notion of "clean conscience about morality or decency" as the nations of the Middle East have no connection to either.