Comments (31)

You know, today Chinese media, from CCTV to Sina and Sohu, censored Obama's inauguration speech. They cut out the passages where he relates to communism and dissent:

“Recall that earlier generations faced down communism and fascism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions.”

“To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history, but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist.”

According to THMAK, "free" is not that "free". So was Obama giving the whole world XXXX, and only the CCP recognized it?

I actually liked what this other Chinese blogger had written pretty sarcastically:

“We are so lucky. It turned out that all other people’s two-party systems, multi-party systems, separation of power, which have worked for several hundred years, are all wrong. They are all on the wrong path. We just started and we’re already on the right path.”

“我们真该庆幸，敢情人家搞两党制、多党制、两院制和三权鼎立，搞了至少二三百年了，却搞错了，走的是错误路线，而我们一抬脚便走的是正确路线！”

To Generalyuefei: Thanks for your apology. I agree with you that one must be 'free' not to take XXXX from another person. From the other person's view point, he is "free' to give XXXX to another person. Since one cannot live alone and we are dependent on each other, the free to take and the free to give has to be settled satisfactory for both parties in order for the mutual dependence to work for benefit of both. Claiming one's own 'free' at the expense of the other will destroy the mutual dependence and benefit. That is 'free' is not that 'free'.

To Thmak: Yeah, oops. I have a hard time making sense of generalyuefei's posts so I sometimes skip them.

To sing1: well said, you make a good point. However, without outside pressure, the will to change within the party probably wouldn't have been as strong. The interconnected media and information network of today means China doesn't have the luxury of taking its time on the road to democracy like U.S. did. The western systems of (particular U.S.) checks and balances, independent media etc isn't without faults, but by copying some of it doesn't sound like a bad idea.

Who says I am pushing for a political system to change immediately?

I'm just to make sure people understand that a democratic system is better than now.

Any immediate change would effect people's live.

But as least we Chinese, our government have to educate our people that free speech is good thing, open media is a good thing.

So this way the top leader could get feed back of their work of local and central sections immediately from people, even rumors will be immediately noticed.

So this way the leaders and people know who are starving and who likes Chen Shui Bian stealing money?...

Even wise emperor wants to know exactly what their people think asap, so things won't get worse that can't be fixed.

If we had open media 10 years ago, would that many tofu buildings built for schools in Sichuan, so our children were buried in there? Would the milk scandal last for years to be noticed?

If one of those controllers were published by media, many building are fixed, many babies would not suck that crap, in the end people, all of us suffer and our leaders are in shame!

And only this way, people understand their rights, so government don't need to guard for riots, and their voice be heard and people are satisfied, corrupted officials be replaced, things are fixed quickly.

Even Zi Chan 子產 knows that 防民之口﹐若防川。block people's mouth like block gushing river.

People in China had started to challenge state monopoly in media and power. It would not be long before Beijing has to change. I hope it would not copy what is happening in the West. If they do, it will be a mess. The political system in China might not be as open as the West right now. It does not mean it is slavery. Don't forget. Serbia was a liberal democracy at the beginning. It turned the Balkan into a killing field when the country started to fall apart. The Nazi party was put in power by democratic process. Freedom without sense of responsibility is bad for everybody. The go-slow approach seems to be working well for now. Interference from outside is no help to anybody. "The West always knows best" is another form of slavery. You cannot make change to a political system in isolation of other social agenda. May be it is too complicated for somebody to comprehend. If the political system opens too fast, how do you stop the separatists from moving in? In the first 150 years of US history, political freedom was restricted to immigrants from Western Europeans only. Irish and Italians were discriminated against for a long time. The political system then opened up gradually in last 60 years under pressure from within. Do you think the States would take it kindly if the rest of world tried to put pressure on them to change before they were ready?

To thmak,

I apologize for my disrespect.

Look at America, even the criminal are protected to speak free will; but in our 5000 uninterrupted history that newspaper, and scholars are afraid to speak for truth.

You and me are all Chinese, we all know that!

If Mr. Lu Xun 魯迅 lives today, what kind essay he will write? Don't tell me he would write against Democracy.

Even before 1945, some newspaper were allowed to publish his writings and works.

And most of our forerunners were democratic and pro-democracy, and they died for it.

I rather be a perverted than being a slave.

Dear thmak,

What's wrong about your children have democracy when they grow up?
They could not tell what's right or wrong? They can't discipline themselves? I am sure you educate well and I have more faith than you do, that they don't have to take other people's s-h-i-t-s when they grow up.

Democracy is not just political system.
It is human being decide other own affair!
Even our dogs and cats know where go to bath!

What you feel that I tell your children whole life what they should do or say, and they must please me or anyone(their boss), rather than telling truth or their truthful thoughts!

I apologize for my disrespect.

But why Chinese, our children could not deserve their best?
Why all our children do not deserve their free speech?
Do we have to watch our parents lived like coward, and now we have to kiss as, and in future the whole world have their freedom of speech, but our people, our children can't have their rights and freedom?

Why some Chinese so against it?

Go home, look at your children's face, and tell them that when they grow up they don't have to kiss as, they can speak for their rights when they been treated unfairly, what's wrong with that?

Is That Chinese must slave each other?
What's wrong with democracy?
If American can have their freedom of speech and a sort of symbolic system, why Chinese can't!?
Are we low class people? Like CNN called us a bunch of thugs!

Look at the world, only Saudi Arabia disallow their women to join in sports, and Chinese have no freedom speech.

Are we Chinese should feel proud that it is tradition that we are group of uncivilized people compare to others? This is how we tell our children that we must live with fear, and live always like slave?!

Who cares about Olympics, who cares about 51 gold!?

I want to see our Chinese kids to walk and speak like men, including yours!

To Generalyuefie: You are perverted.

To Hawksmoor: My post is a reply to Generalyuefie's quote "People decide". I agree with what you say.

John,

Give up your hope please.

Chinese Democracy?!
How can you teach a blind to read color?
Dogs sniff s-h-i-t-s! A forever truth!

To Doubter1,

Nope! Your grandma believes that kind of cult, I thought your uncles locked her up already.
I am the bum who is the friend of your boss that gonna take your position, and in future your son gonna kiss my behind to make a living.
Actually it is better this way for our nation stays like this way now, anyway your family and children gonna suffer for my deeds, you like it.
Mao liked it, I liked too. And my parents were red guards who put your grandpa in the pig yard.
So now you can be my slave and pay your tax to me.

There is a bum here lurking on this blog. What is his screen name? generalyuefei! A hapless Farlungang cultist and recently got rejection from INS for his green card application. No wonder!

to Thmak:

I agree with most of what you say but keep in mind USA is a representative democracy and not a direct democracy. The founding fathers specifically sought to limit the direct involvement of people so elected officials would govern to represent the interest of the people and not necessarily reflect the consensus.

TO THAMK,

ARE YOU LIKE MY DOG?
MY DOG LIKES TO SNIFF MY AS?
WHO'S AS YOU SNIFFING RIGHT NOW?
DON'T YOU WANT TO BE A MAN AND KISS LIPS?
RATHER THAN SNIFF AS?
IF YOU DON'T STOP, THEN ONE DAY YOU WILL LIKE SNIFF MINE TOO.

WHAT'S WRONG ABOUT FREE OUR PEOPLE AND CHILDREN SO THEY CAN DECIDE ABOUT THEIR LIFE AND NATION, AIN'T YOURS ALONE.

To thmak,

So now is the best huh?
That I pee on your head is best system right?

one day when you get unfair treatment and have no where to speak, you may want democracy.

At least American can point out their president's fault, what the hell we Chinese can do. If our leader fart in front face, we act like we never smell S-H-I-T-S!

To Generalyuefei: Your quote :THAT'S DEMOCRACY. PEOPLE DECIDE!" is utterly false. The Americans do not decide to invade Iraq or cause problems in other countries. The Americans do not decide on the bailout. The Americans do not decide on the boundaries of the voting districts, the Americans do not decide on the laws and taxes legislatured. The USA president, the representatives in Congress and Senate are elected by a minority of the eligible voters, not the majority. They never consult the concensus of their constituents on how they should vote and decide. So what those representatives do do not represent the will of the majority. That is Americans do not decide. I hope you understand.

To dear Sing1,

one day your boss will make you do something you think democracy is better than slavery system. I hope I am the one that push you on the verge so you feel you have been treated unfairly.

I will make you live like a slave you may eventually dream of democracy.

John,

Some peoples are born to be slave.

The milk scandal is business malpractice. It prevails in every countries in transition from an agricultural economy to an industrial economy. Even today, people killed by bad products in the so-called developed world is in the thousands every year. It is the responsibility of government to address this product agressively. The financial problem we are facing is the result of agressive lobbying by the financial institutions to get the government off their back. Is this good democracy or bad democracy.

Anyone praise that General Yue Fei was a national hero?

How you feel about he drank emperor's poison wine?

It is right thing or not?

Maybe democracy can save our heroes, so Qing Hui like slaves never rule people.

To Dear sing1,

How about my milk sucking grandson telling your daddy what to do and what they should say in their life?

What you think?

How you feel I decide your own matters and speech?

There are a lot of commy dogs here.

BOOK OF SHANG RECORDS THAT EMPEROR XIAO GETS OLD AND WANTS TO PASS HIS THRONE TO SHUN, BUT SHUN HEARS NEWS RUNS AWAY HIDES IN THE REMOTE PLACE, AFTER SOME YEARS, HE CAMES OUT RECEIVES THE THRONE. WHY HE RUNS AWAY FIRST, BECAUSE THAT TIME PEOPLE DON'T LIKE IT, AND UNTIL MAJORITY WANT HIM TO BE THEIR RULER, THEN HE COMES OUT AND BE THE KING.

THAT'S DEMOCRACY. PEOPLE DECIDE!

I'M WITH JOHN AS LONG AS HE DOES NOT SEPARATE CHINA.

What is the point of having a liberal democracy, if all it brings are:
1. polarized society
2. relentless civil unrest
3. ethic, religous violence
4. corruption with no boundary
5. rise of nationalism (Russia and India)
6. rise of militarism (Nazi German)
Is that what the West wants ?

Economic conditions dictates civilities of a country more than political system. Look at India. After 50+years of so-called democracy, it remains a very intolerant society.
http://www.feer.com/politics/2008/december/Indias-Other-Terrorism
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/29/world/asia/29india.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
Should China ever copy the so-called democracy from the West, I am sure China will be a lot worse than they are right now.
Another questions for the bloggers.
Is liberal democracy the ultimate goal for all society regardless of consequences?
Should liberal democracy be viewed as a tool to improve a civil society only?
Can China become a better civil society than the Western society without going through the turbulence Indian society is in?
I always think liberal democracy is just a tools to improve a society not a utlimate goal.

@Jamesmoylan

Without sounding like I agree with the Chinese Communist Party's decision to shut down the liberal website, I can certainly understand their reasons. The CCP derive their power and legitimacy from a robust economy. In the face of the current economic crisis, they are already uneasy about stability within the country. Unlike Europe and United States, which to some extent can handle a recession, the Chinese government faces serious issues even if the economies continues to expand, but at a slower pace. Every year millions of workers from the rural areas migrate to cities looking for employment. These new workers, along with the labor force within the city means there must be matching amount of new jobs created for them. If the influx of workers outstrips the growth of the economy, leads to massive unemployment, marches/demonstrations, riots, and voila! worst nightmare for the party leaders.

So during the economic crisis, when there are more unsatisfied, laid off people with nothing but time on their hands, the people in charge, unsurprisingly fear liberal websites that demand "significant" changes in the political process might become a excuse for people to channel their discontent.

Thats why they think these views are dangerous, if not intrinsically, then at least now. Probably added "vulgar" to sound better but no that is not representative of chinese view of free speech

China needs at least another 15 years before the top leaders of the country will seriously start moving toward democracy and a free society. The reason is that most of the current leadership was educated in China. But the newer generations of Chinese leaders will almost certainly have some experience and education in the West.

sing1:

"blah blah.. a lot of funding from NED, ... blah blah"

from NED? Can't conjugate a verb but knows Secret Service acronyms that are unfamiliar to virtually everyone? hmmm?

Thak:

The Chinese people are free to think anything, as are all human beings. However I have the ability to freely express my views even if they are contrary and objectionable. The Chinese are not so lucky. I read elsewhere today:

"China's Communist Party has significantly tightened propaganda controls by shutting down the country's most vibrant and influential intellectual discussion platform.

The move to shut down the website Bullog follows a prominent warning by the country's propaganda chief, Li Changchun, last week that the party would tighten internet controls over "vulgar" content." http://www.theage.com.au/news/technology/web/nervous-china-tightens-grip-on-internet/2009/01/11/1231608576489.html

Sadly this is the Chinese view of free speech - vulgar and dangerous.

John works as a Journalist in the morning. At night, he is working full time to promote democracy in China. That is his real job. I bet he got a lot of funding from NED, a lot more than he can ever make by writing columns for Washington Post and arranging guided tour to China. Do you remember Valerie Flame, John Wilson's wife. Sorry, John for exposing your real identity.

Thank you Mr. Pomfret for the lead.

Your information about the blogger refutes your assertion that the Chinese are supprssed to exppress their freedom of expression and indicates your total ignorance on the fact that the Chinese are as free as can be.

She is a beautiful lady, could you get her number for me?

No one wants to talk about human rights with a bunch of old peoples, but she is a good person have conversation, and she is a poet too.

John,

I really admire you, where you get all these info:)?

You already penetrated Chinese Democratic Underground society.:)

If one day China be a democratic, you should receive an award:) ha ha