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Dalai Lama's Surrender?

It wasn't really surprising that the Dalai Lama finally announced this weekend that he's given up on talks with China. But it's pretty sad nonetheless. And it means that unless there's a fundamental change in the PRC's attitude toward Tibet, the Dalai Lama is likely to die outside of China and Tibetan culture will, like so many others around the world, just fade away.

"I have been sincerely pursuing the middle way approach in dealing with China for a long time now but there hasn't been any positive response from the Chinese side," the Dalai Lama said in Tibetan at a public function Saturday, according to the AP. He made his remarks in the north Indian mountain town of Dharmsala that has been home to Tibet's government-in-exile ever since the Dalai Lama fled China in 1959.

"As far as I'm concerned I have given up."

This is extremely blunt stuff from a leader who is always holding open the door to compromise and almost preternaturally optimistic. But it's also an accurate reflection of reality. The Chinese government has been dabbling in talks with representatives of the Dalai Lama for years. But at no point was there ever really a sense that the Chinese were sincere in their attempts to solve the Tibetan problem.

At regular junctures during the talks, Chinese government spokesmen would issue a set of demands. On a regular basis, the Chinese upped the ante. First they wanted the Dalai Lama to accept Chinese sovereignty over Tibet. He did. Then they wanted him to announce that Tibet was not only part of Chinese territory but that Taiwan was, too. (This was to punish him for traveling to Taiwan.) Then they wanted him to pretty much confine his potential role in Tibet to that of a religious or cultural figure. He said he would do that as well. In June, he told Nick Kristof of the New York Times that he could accept the socialist system in Tibet under Communist Party rule.

"The main thing is to preserve our culture, to preserve the character of Tibet," the Dalai Lama told Kristof. "That is what is most important, not politics."

The latest demand was that the Dalai Lama confine his focus to what is known as "political Tibet." The Dalai Lama has also expressed concern about the destruction of Tibetan culture in areas outside of Tibet, in Yunnan, Sichuan, Gansu and Qinghai provinces, for example. The Dalai Lama has been reluctant to accede to this demand because a large percentage of the 200,000 some Tibetans in exile hail from those provinces.

Following the Tibetan riots in Lhasa and Tibetan protests in many other provinces this year, China resumed "talks about talks" with representatives of Dalai Lama. The Chinese government did this in the run-up to the Olympics as a political measure to take the heat off. But it's clear now that the PRC was never really interested in a solution.

So what is China's policy towards Tibet? I've had several long discussions with Chinese officials about this issue over the years. Each time I've laid out my analysis and asked them to disagree with it. Each time, they have not challenged me. My analysis is simple: China's government is waiting for the Dalai Lama who is 73 to die. When he does, their calculus is that the Tibetan movement, denied a charismatic leader, will split into factions. The romantic idea of Tibet, which has been so important to the movement over the years, will lose its traction in Hollywood and among the jet setting cognescenti. The Tibetan movement will devolve into just another movement of a minority culture in a very big world. And China will be essentially off the hook.

To be sure, there are optimistic Westerners as well who think that China will do the right thing and let the Dalai Lama return to China to attend to his people and attempt to preserve what remains of their culture. But I think the optimists are wrong for two reasons. First is that currently (and I'd wager for the foreseeable future) no leader in China will have the heft to push such a big change like this through a party-state structure hardwired to be cautious.

Over the past 70 years of history, China's leaders have grown increasingly weaker. Mao was a supremo; Deng was pretty tough; Jiang grew in power over time, but still could not compare with Deng; and Hu Jintao, the current No. 1, runs the show with eight other guys looking over his shoulder.

Second, China's security services are deathly afraid of the Dalai Lama because he retains enormous influence among his people. In the late 1990s, the Dalai Lama asked to visit a Buddhist center in northern China called Wutai Shan. The security services nixed the trip because, as one official told me, "there would be a line of 2 million praying Tibetans stretching from Lhasa across my country." He and others predicted that If the Dalai Lama returned, Tibet would most surely rise up against Chinese rule.

The Dalai Lama has called for a special meeting of Tibetan exiles in the second week of November to discuss the future of the Tibetan movement. It's a grim future no matter how you cut it.

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Comments (132)

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
Does India need anybody recognition to rule Kashmire. If not, why would China need anybody especially Britian recognition to rule Tibet.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

@JIAMING:

Returning to the David Miliband's statement on Tibet:

You wrote:
"Based on the original statement from the UK foreign ministor, the British are now saying that not only do they recognize China's soverignty over Tibet, it had always been Britain's policy all along. So what have we been talking about again?"

This is not quite so...
The Economist on November 07, 2008 noted the following:

"Curiously, Mr Miliband’s statement does not, in so many words, recognise Chinese sovereignty. But officials say it means that, as far as Britain is concerned, “Tibet is part of China. Full stop.” For many Tibetans, however, the correct punctuation remains a question-mark."

Saying that Tibet is a part of China is almost a tautology, isn't it? It is for all to see that Tibet is a part of China *currently*. But is it rightly so and, more importantly, is it going to be in the future? That is a different issue.

Hoyeah88 Author Profile Page:

I think Dailai need to stop open big mouth for ill-fated indenpence and just return as regilious figure, China will welcome, otherwise...who care!!!

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: Dalai Lama's brand of Buddhism does not teach human right and self determination and is not included in any Buddhism documents. He did not practice human right and self-determination when he was in charge. He mentions human right and self-determination just to cater to the interest of the Western anti-China thugs and goons. He is a shrewd politician wearing a lama gown and he is committing a Tibetan cultural genocide by incorporating a foreign idea into the Buddhist teaching. If he is really a faithful Buddhist he must have the tolerance and compassion to sneak back to China to lead and suffer with his so-called oppressed followers and lead them to a better life like Mendella, Gandhi, Tutu and Mao instead of living in a comfortable life in a foregn country. I hope you understand.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Carryanne: Your post and what you said "Based on what I know about the CCP," indicate that you are brainwashed by the anti-China propagandists. Human right was not respected in Tibet when Dalai Lama was in charge in Tibet. Sloganing it now is just to try to serve the interest of Western anti-China thugs and goons. Not only he cannot but also Dalai Lama will not be permitted to go back to China under the current circumstances. Your statement" "his CONCERN for the Tibetan people, and he does SEEM to care about them and feel responsible for their well being" indicates Dalai wholeheartedly does not has the TOLERANCE and COMPASSION to sneak back to China to lead and suffer with his so-called oppressed followers in their struggle for a better life like other famius world leaders such as Mendalla, Tutu, Gandhi and Mao but instead prefer to live a comfortable life in a foregn country. I hope you understand.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

I think this whole issue should be taken one step further:
His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, as head of the most important sect in Tibetan Buddhism, should become an Indian citizen. Why?
There are Tibetan Buddhists all across the Indian Himalaya as well as in Mongolia, Russia (Kalmykya) and increasingly all over the world.
A person of his stature is trans-national and does not belong to any particular country.

Taking up Indian citizenship would also make it clear that the Tibetan issue is not about the Dalai Lama but about human rights and self-determination whether exercised within China or within an independent Tibet...

And let me add this:
Chinese who have opted for a life in the West by the millions, taking up US, British or Australian citizenship as soon as they could get hold of it, are a prime example that one can transcend nationalities without losing one’s roots.

I think it was Salman Rushdie who noted:
in the future peoples’ sense of belonging will no longer be with a place or a nation but with ideas and convictions…

carryanne Author Profile Page:

Based on what I know about the CCP, religions in China, so called dissidents, slanderous propaganda against Tibetans and Dalai Lama, and lack of basic human rights in China, 1.the Dalai Lama cannot go back to China under the current circumstances and 2. I can totally sympathize with his concern for the Tibetan people, and he does seem to care about them and feel responsible for their well being on this so called political level.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

Thmak, probably what would happen to Dalai Lama if he goes back to China is the same thing that happened to Panchen Lama. That is a reasonable conclusion.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Carryanne: What will happen to Dalai Lama if he sneaks back to China is not for me to predict. Mao and his party survived the onslaught of the previous Chinese regime. Dalai may be too if he has faith in Buddha and the compassion. You mentioned Falun Gong first. I just responded and don't want to discuss that issue any further since it has nothing to do with pesent topic. I have the compassion of Buddha not to accuse you of any anything. I hope you understand

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

As Miliband says:
"Our interest is in long term stability, which can only be achieved through respect for human rights and greater autonomy for the Tibetans."

That is what we have been talking about all along...
Independence only comes into the equation if the above keeps failing (which is up to the CCP).

jiaming Author Profile Page:

Thanks for the clarification, JAIHIND. Based on the original statement from the UK foreign ministor, the British are now saying that not only do they recognize China's soverignty over Tibet, it had always been Britain's policy all along. So what have we been talking about again?

carryanne Author Profile Page:

Dear thmak,

I think you should probably rethink what kind of values you believe in.

Don't you believe in the rule of law? Then how can you support Mao's killing so easily? How can you make the excuse about US has social problems to defend the CCP for jailing the best people?
How can you say Falun Gong should be treated like cult? What are you saying? It's just like your so awful, but you probably aren't, what's really going on with you? It's quite suspicious. Are you highly uneducated or just willing to seell your opinion to the CCP, or what's your motive for being so immoral?

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

FYI:
David Miliband's full statement continues to say:

"Our ability to get our points across has sometimes been clouded by the position the UK took at the start of the 20th century on the status of Tibet, a position based on the geo-politics of the time. Our recognition of China’s “special position” in Tibet developed from the outdated concept of suzerainty. Some have used this to cast doubt on the aims we are pursuing and to claim that we are denying Chinese sovereignty over a large part of its own territory. We have made clear to the Chinese Government, and publicly, that we do not support Tibetan independence. Like every other EU member state, and the United States, we regard Tibet as part of the People’s Republic of China. Our interest is in long term stability, which can only be achieved through respect for human rights and greater autonomy for the Tibetans.

We have noted recent comments by the Dalai Lama regretting the lack of progress in the dialogue so far. We are also aware of indications of growing frustration among some Tibetans about the dialogue process. We consider the position the Dalai Lama has stated publicly, including when he visited Britain this year, that he opposes violence and is seeking meaningful autonomy within the framework of the Chinese constitution, provides a basis for a negotiated settlement. Our strong view is that genuine progress at the next round of talks is essential to promote progress on such a settlement. Participation in these talks carries a weight of responsibility for both parties."

Generally, it is also interesting to know why people say the things they say.

jiaming Author Profile Page:

On Wednesday, Oct 29th, the original architect of the Tibet Independence Movement, Great Britain, has officially defected from the US camp on this issue. The foreign ministor of the UK publicly announced Britain's recognition of Tibet as part of the People's Republic of China. So much for the moral superiority of the US media. Mr. Pomfret, like to comment on that? or is the dose of reality too much to swallow?

This is from the Wall Street Journal.

-- The U.K. has long acknowledged Chinese control over Tibet, but its policy for nearly a century has stopped short of formally recognizing Tibet as part of Chinese territory -- a stance that bothers China's government. In a statement on Wednesday, British Foreign Secretary David Miliband called that past British policy an "anachronism" and effectively abandoned it, saying that the U.K. does recognize Tibet as "part of the People's Republic of China."

http://sec.online.wsj.com/article/SB122549900302589905.html

carryanne Author Profile Page:

Dear, darling, thmak,

What can I say to you? What would you say to you?
1. Dalai Lama would be treated how? He would be treated as a dissident right? Are you really not informed?

2. social problems?! And you have the perfect excuse (yeah, sure, everyone will agree with that excuse, not) the US alos has "social problems"... Where to start....?

3. It seems you ARE the CCP. No matter the evil killing, the party is always great glorious and correct right? WAKE UP!

4. Falun Gong should be treated as a cult? How about some evidence for any kind of criminal activity? How about being treated fairly under the rule of law? Yeah, that doesnt exist in China where you have the whims of the CCPs desires to guide the false justice system. In the US Falun Gong is a normal (but highly persecuted in China) people. Thay didnt do anything wrong, they're doing good things.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Carryanne: Where do you get the idea that Dalai would be tortured to death if he stayed in China? The term "totalitarian dictatorship." does not apply to any entity and does not appear in any official paper. Falun Gong is a cult and must be treated as a cult as in USA. "Look what happens to people who organize petitions, to lawyers who know the real meaning of justice, to people who have been victims of CCP corruption, to people who have constructive criticisms considered subversive, to people who want to discuss important......." all these social problems happens in USA too. What is the point?

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Carryanne: Thanks for digging up those historical facts for me. My appreciation. That period of time is the dark ages in recent Chinese history brought about by internal and external factors. Mao, in his old ages then, had spent the best of his adult life just destroying the old order. When he was finally in control, he found out that he didn't have much time left for him and his contemporary comrades to build and see a properous China the party envisioned at the beginning of the revolution. As never-give-up a person he was, he embarked on a fast track policy to try to jump start China to prosperity. The immense China he inherited was different from the small area at the beginning of the revolution. The social condition then and now were vastly different. As we all know haste makes waste. That is the internal problem. The external problem is that the Korean war and the Vietnam war were forced upon China by circumstances. The huge cost to those wars for a poor country like China was terrible and compounded the dire internal probelms. The millions deaths were not purposefully executed by Mao like the hollocust Jews or the NanKing massacre. China toughed out the dire circumstance and marches to present day prosperity. I hope you understand.

carryanne Author Profile Page:

Facts of the Political Campaigns after the Founding of the People's Republic of China reported that, "In May 1984, after 31 months of intensive investigation, verification and recalculation by the Central Committee of the CCP, the figures related to the Cultural Revolution were: over 4.2 million people were detained and investigated; over 1,728,000 people died of unnatural causes; over 135,000 people were labeled as counter-revolutionaries and executed; over 237,000 people were killed and over 7.03 million were disabled in armed attacks; and 71,200 families were destroyed." Statistics compiled from county annals show that 7.73 million people died of unnatural causes during the Cultural Revolution.

carryanne Author Profile Page:

According to Facts of the Political Campaigns after the Founding of the People's Republic of China co-edited by four government units including the CCP History Research Center in 1996, during the "Three Anti Campaign" and "Five Anti Campaign," more than 323,100 people were arrested and over 280 committed suicide or disappeared. In the "Anti-Hu Fang campaign" in 1955, over 5000 were incriminated, over 500 were arrested, over 60 committed suicide, and 12 died from unnatural causes. In the subsequent suppression of the reactionaries, over 21,300 people were executed, and over 4,300 committed suicide or disappeared

The highest death toll was recorded during China's Great Famine shortly after the Great Leap Forward. The article "Great Famine" in the book Historical Records of the People's Republic of China states, "The number of unnatural deaths and reduced births from 1959 to 1961 is estimated at about 40 million…China's depopulation by 40 million is likely to be the world's greatest famine in this century."

carryanne Author Profile Page:

Thmak, since you want to know, I'll share with you more points on the CCp's history:

Mao Zedong said in a document ("We Must Fully Promote [the Suppression of Reactionaries] So Every Family Is Informed." (March 30, 1951), "There are still many places where people are intimidated and dare not kill the reactionaries openly in a large scale." In February 1951, the central CCP said that except for Zhejiang province and southern Anhui province, "other areas which are not killing enough, especially in the large and mid-sized cities, should continue to arrest and kill a large number and should not stop too soon." Mao even recommended (in the document "We must forcefully and accurately strike the reactionaries." (1951) that "in rural areas, to kill the reactionaries, there should be over 1/1000 of the total population killed…in the cities, it should be less than 1/1000. " The population of China at that time was approximately 600 million; this "royal order" from Mao would have caused at least 600,000 deaths. Nobody knows where this ratio of 1/1000 came from. Perhaps on a whim, Mao decided these 600,000 lives should be enough to lay the foundation for creating fear among the people, and thus ordered it to happen.

Whether those killed deserved to die was not the CCP's concern. "The People's Republic of China Regulations for Punishing the Reactionaries," announced in 1951 even said that those who "spread rumors" can be "immediately executed."

By the end of 1952, the CCP-published number of the executed "reactionary elements" was about 2.4 million.

Also, maybe it would be good for you to come closer to peoples real experiences:
http://www.topix.com/forum/world/china/TB5L12PP7F3E16BR9

carryanne Author Profile Page:

The Dalai Lama has no compassion because he didn't stay in China to be tortured to death?

You obviously have no idea what happens to people who seek freedom in a totalitarian dictatorship. Look what happens to Falun Gong people. Look what happens to people who organize petitions, to lawyers who know the real meaning of justice, to people who have been victims of CCP corruption, to people who have constructive criticisms considered subversive, to people who want to discuss important topics publicly and who don't think it's right that their every word is censored. What would have happened to those leaders of the Tiananmen thing who are now in US? Any free spirit nobility or sense of justice is totally crushed and decimated through brutal means by the CCP. The CCP could fabricate a ton of crimes and put that guy in jail and no one would ever know what would have happened to him. Do you really think it would be the best thing for him to do? What would you do? I suppose you would thank the party for showing you the error of your ways and gladly pay for the bullets and torture implements they use on you? You would see if there were any glorious torturers who needed your vital organs and happily donate them?

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

THMAK,
"To Jaihind: Your information from wikipedia clearly states that the deaths number is just an estimate by a wide margin, not official deaths count. I'm sure there is no official record. So it is just a talking point, not historical fact."

There is also no official record of Tibetan deaths after the uprising in March this year. Only pictures of dead bodies with bullet holes that have made their way out of Tibet...

So these casualties are also a talking point only, not historical facts, are they?
So is June 4 1989 and anything that is locked up in the CCP archives...

In fact, history will only take its rightful place when the CCP becomes history...

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: Your information from wikipedia clearly states that the deaths number is just an estimate by a wide margin, not official deaths count. I'm sure there is no official record. So it is just a talking point, not historical fact. The deaths was due to starvation because of poor harvest, a natural disaster, not intentionally killed or murdered by Mao. More, the dire condition in China was compounded by the cost of the Korean war followed by the South Vietnam war and total embargo militarily imposed by USA. By only toughing it out and not yielding to the subjugation policy of the USA, China marches to present day prosperity. I hope you understand what I am talking about.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Google for "mao zedong deaths million" and you can get plenty of hits...

From Wikipedia:
"There is a great deal of controversy over the number of deaths by starvation during the Great Leap Forward. Until the mid 1980s, when official census figures were finally published by the Chinese Government, little was known about the scale of the disaster in the Chinese countryside, as the handful of Western observers allowed access during this time had been restricted to model villages where they were deceived into believing that Great Leap Forward had been a great success. There was also an assumption that the flow of individual reports of starvation that had been reaching the West, primarily through Hong Kong and Taiwan, must be localized or exaggerated as China was continuing to claim record harvests and was a net exporter of grain through the period. Censuses were carried out in China in 1953, 1964 and 1982. The first attempt to analyse this data in order to estimate the number of famine deaths was carried out by American demographer Dr Judith Banister and published in 1984. Given the lengthy gaps between the censuses and doubts over the reliability of the data, an accurate figure is difficult to ascertain. Nevertheless, Banister concluded that the official data implied that around 15 million excess deaths incurred in China during 1958-61 and that based on her modelling of Chinese demographics during the period and taking account of assumed underreporting during the famine years, the figure was around 30 million. The official statistic is 20 million deaths, as given by Hu Yaobang.[3] Various other sources have put the figure between 20 and 72 million."

If you care to take notice: even Hu Yaobang put the number at 20 million deaths - and that is for the Great Leap Forward only!
But then I know: Hu Yaobang was an anti-China counterrevolutionary also...

I hope you understand my English.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Carryanne: Some people accuse me of poor English writing and don't understand what I wrote so I say "I hope you understand" just to get some feedback and explain further. I hope you understand. INSIDE China is a news mining publication in USA. It does not verify,validate and accredit any news, entirely in English in this case. News about China are generated by Anti-China organizations. This is, any garbage news in, garbage news out. Any news, therefore, cannot be regarded as facts, just a talking point to be confirmed. So in this case of, you says, about 60 million people killed. Using my common sense and don't want to be brainwashed,I repeat: 60 million out of 600 million people at that time is one in ten. That is one of everyone's acqaintances was killed, 4 people in every city building were killed. This scenario cannot possibly happened and is so terrorizing that any surviving person is going to have a lasting nightmare and bitterness. The fact is the people in China is happy, ardently supporting their government as evidenced by the 2008 Olympic games and the society is harmonious. Remember the jews never forgive any Nazi organizations. During the tumultous period, communication is a mess, information is a mess and the society is a mess. So the 50 miilion number must be a mess number generated by anti-China organizations for propaganda purpose and the 50+ million number is absolute nonsense. Or you just willing to be braiwashed by them. I hope you understand. If not, tell me where I'm wrong. Please don't accuse me for refuting history or "part of the CCPs massive team for covering up it's atrocities" since I have the kindness of not accusing you of anything. I just question the validity of your history record. There are more Chinese students here in USA than any other countries. Have you talk to them to find out if they are brainwashed and feel mentally tortureed in China or you just want to remain in your brainwashed state. Chinese have their own definition and worry about what security meant to them. Do they have to be dictated and subjugated to follow what are and are not terrorists to them by anti-China Western powers? I hope you understand. China is not afraid of Dalai Lama. On the contrary, Dalai Lama is afraid of China. That is why he escaped to India. He had not been mistreated or threatened by China. Gandhi and Mandella never left their countries when they fought for their rights. They even get imprisoned. If Dalai really love the Tibetans in Tibet, he could have remained there and suffered with them while fighting for their rights instead of leaving the suffering Tibetans behind and enjoying his highness comfortable life abroad. Right now, he can still sneak back to China to fight for his suffering Tibetans in Tibet, but he doesn't have the slightest Buddhist compassion to do that. I hope you understand. Any counterpoints?


.

carryanne Author Profile Page:

Thmak,
You keep saying 'I hope you understand' as if your opinion was the only valid answer, but other peoples perspectives might be more correct, so you can be quite frustrating to other people and maybe thats why some people dont want to debate with you. You seem really out to lunch.

During the 'tumultuous time' of the CCPs reign over China, it is commonly accepted throughout the world based on the facts from INSIDE China, that between 50 and 80 million people have lost their lives due to the evilness (or as some would prefer, stupidity) of the communist party and Mao. If you want to refute history, then I would say to go do that amongst other crazy people. Or maybe you are part of the CCPs massive team for covering up it's atrocities.

After Mao, the killing has not ended, they are slaughtering Falun Gong, they slaughtered the Tiananmen protesters and they are still on a lethal campaign to brainwash the nation. Anyone who doesn want to be brainwashed will feel the torture.

The Tibetans do not like atheist communism and they know the difference between freedom and imprisonment. They have a religious belief that is at least as strong as the CCP indoctrination and they don't want the CCP heavy handed totalitarian crap. Why is that so hard for Chinese to understand? I think that is because they do not believe the CCP is harmful, they believe in a fairytale because....? WHy do they believe in a fairytale, I guess that's what they have been fed as the truth.

As for the Dalai Lama, he probably still has some human desires, I don't know, but what is the CCP so afraid of? He doesn't want to ruin China and take over the country any more than anyone else. He wants to be able to live in Tibet and for Tibetans to be treated well. Why can't that be achieved? I think it cant because the CCP would be admitting that he is not a devil and anti-China force and they just love to call him those things so as to scapegoat the Chinese peoples attention toward a cause of hatred (same as North Korea gov't loves to do, it works so well)

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: I refute your posts point by point with rationale facts and reasonings but you simply avoid my points and fail to respond with any counter points except empty phrases such as " nothing to offer but cheap excuses", "Tock tock tock, is there anyone home in these brains or is it only a pre-recorded message being replayed. It's just boring to argue with answering machines." . Those reasoning statements of yours cannot come forth from an educated intellectual. I hope you understand.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Freebornchina: It is not total 'submission'. It is total responsibility. The monks own the land on which they slave the lower Tibetans to farm for them. If you say that "Buddhists do not care about money or personal success. They simply want to live a peaceful, moral life and serve Buddha", then we all will be living in stone age environment. I hope you understand.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

FREEBORNCHINA,

wishful thinking has not worked with the Chinese (shall I say, Communists) since the time of "Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai". Unfortunately, the Tibetans are *too* religious to match the Chinese realpoliticians (as are the Indians)...
It's time to keep religiously inspired wishful thinking out of the business and return the issue to what it truly is:
a political one.
I am sure the current generation of Tibetans in exile will have quite a few capable people to take the issue forward on that path.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

Peter34's Chinese articles have logic that is similar to many of the other comments here in English. It comes down to Chinese saying the Dalai Lama is guilty until he can be proved innocent, and for "proof" that he does not want to cause bloody civil war they will not accept anything except total submission. And even that is not enough, they want total submission from every Tibetan.

My favorite argument is that the Chinese annexation of Tibet was good for Tibetans because it got rid of Tibet's ruling class and liberated the workers. By "ruling class" they mean the monks who Tibetans love and respect. Clearly the monks do not farm the land, and they accept donations from farmers, so they must be rich elite, right? And that was how the monks were treated, thrown into prison if they resisted and called "rich elite" until self-serving people like 格勒 decided to agree with their captors in order to gain status.

And the other major argument in these postings, Chinese and English, is simple - Tibetans are wealthier now than before the "liberation" so they should thank the Chinese. And I think most posters simply do not understand that Buddhists do not care about money or personal success. They simply want to live a peaceful, moral life and serve Buddha.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

generalyuefei, thmak, peter34:

So peter34 is a Tibetan... lol
You guys have nothing to offer but cheap excuses for what China is doing to Tibet.
For you, most likely, June 4 1989 was the day when a flower parade was held to celebrate the achievements of the CCP, and any questioning of that "truth" is a Western and anti-China plot to split the motherland and sabotage its greatness.

Tock tock tock, is there anyone home in these brains or is it only a pre-recorded message being replayed?

I don't mean to offend. It's just boring to argue with answering machines. I hope you understand.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

Also Western people mostly live separated, you may see any city is cut by racial groups(not by governemnt) like White neighborhood, black, Jews, Latino, Chinese, Korean... so on.

So they expect using their experience and education to separate China that they don't even know China, we are a nation that melted for over 2000 yrs thru language, culture, and tradition, even the folktale stories are cannot be determined thru ethnic source, how can you separate a nation that share same identity?

The last thing Chinese want to see is some stupid people use religion and culture difference to discriminate and war against each other.

China is not Middleeast, nor America; after the period of Warring states, the First Emperor know that one nation will provide peace, and Han Dynasty set system which for all Chinese(any ethnic and states) to live under one nation so all Chinese may enjoy peaceful life. That is reason every US elementary pupil sworn to US flag under one nation and God... and now China should be separated so people can go to war and struggle like Middle East forever? No Way!

Maybe Utah should be separated from US, because their state is ran under Mormon Church, and US invaded them during the West Aggression.

Did God grant His right to let US expand in the West? Where is your prove?

Even Moses got his carved stone tablets!

Untill people down difference, then they can enjoy peace; that's reason west been fighting for thousand year, China have peace and uninterrupted history for over 2000 yrs, History is the fact and prove, we proud of that!

General Yue Fei was Ke Jia Ethnic, one of the Ethnic of Taiwan, but he was patriot and nationalist, a true Chinese.


generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

That is the reason we can't let Dalai come back.
One day he's happy, so he want peace;
another day he's mad, he wants independent, and those people don't worship him should ever be allowed to be in Tibet.

He wants to be god of Tibet, and king of China.
Not only that he preaches racial segregation in China (Tibetan and other ethnic Chinese should be separated), btwn Tibetan and other ethnic Chinese, not only that he wants to rule Tibet, not allow any other Tibetan to rule and represent, but China government always states Tibetan rule Tibet, not Dalai. No any religious group should rule any part of China, as US' Church and States separation system.

That's is reason China will not allow him to be back, even other Dalai or next Dalai would not agree with him.

It is unconstitutional whether to US or China constitution to let such religious group to ruin the nation and people.

Example: FaLun Gong (Origin Han Ethnic), out!

Dalai get out!

If his faith only rely on politic and border, then he is politician

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Carryanne: As I reason in my post, any number killed in the tens of million is ABSOLUTELY NONSENSE. To arrive at that kind of number gathered from all over China during that tumultous period is absolutely impossible, especially by people living outside China. Information is a mess, communication is a mess and the society is a mess. As everyone knows, mess in, mess out. So the number tens of millions is generated by anti-China thugs and goons and is propagandized just to demonized China. I hope you understand. The website you mentioned does not mention the atrocities committed by USA and Japan. Therefore that site is prejudiced, biased and cannot be trusted. I hope you understand.

carryanne Author Profile Page:

Thmak,
that's not what he said, he said: Are you referring to the Cultural revolution and the rule of Mao Zedong during which some 50 million Chinese are supposed to have perished in labour camps, famines, class struggles etc.?

If your talking about the cultural revolution (where cannibalism was zealously practiced by party murderers amongst other evil crimes against humanity) then I think they have set the toll at ten million.

As for the deaths caused by Mao's evilness and stupidity, they say it's somewhere from 60-80 million. It seems to be hard to verify I guess that would have a lot to do with the fact that that same party is still dictating China on a platform of propaganda.

heres a site that has some interesting research on how much killing the communist and other dictatorial, fascist and totalitarian regimes have done: http://markhumphrys.com/communism.html#summary

my blog is http://nomoreccp.wordpress.com/

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: " the Cultural revolution and the rule of Mao Zedong during which some 50 million Chinese are supposed to have perished in labour camps" is an absolute nonsense propaganda perpetuated for the past 50+ years by anti-China thugs and goons. During those years, the population is China is about 600 million. 50( some even claims more) millions killed means about one in ten is killed. China is heavily populated in the cities. Rows of rows of houses. Living spaces are jammed. One in ten means one of everyone's acqaintances or one of one's relatives was killed; 3 to 4 people were killed in each city building. This scenario is not possible and is so terrorizing that it is not possible for the Chinese people to be so happy and still fervantly supporting their government today. So that figure of 50 million killed is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. I hope you understand.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Freebornchina: If Dalai is sincere in reaching reconciliation with China, he should be talking to China and not talking to the world. The Dalai's Tibetan issue is to be settled between China and him, not him and the world. Therefore he is not sincere. I hope you understand

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

Peter34:

"We've done a survey in Tibet asking what government policy makes people happiest? The most common response was that they are an autonomous region, the second was that they have religious freedom. See? That means the government is basically doing a good job." [paraphrased from the Chinese]

I've done a survey, too, which indicates that 75% of official Chinese surveys that have to do with politics are faked.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To 格勒: Thanks for introducing yourself and appreciate your indepth posting about the Tibetan issues.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: To those anti-China people, Tibetan cultural genocide means changing the Tibetan status that exists before 1950. Therefore leaning English, Chinese, adapting new ways of life are cultural genocide. If not, then those anti-China people just use the sensational but "NONSENSE" word "Tibetan cultural genocide" to beg for sympathy and handouts. I hope you understand. If you can read Dr Peter34's Chinese posts, you know he is a Tibetan writing as a Tibetan in WP in defense of Chinese Tibetan policy, refuting your assertion that no Tibetan ever posts anything similar in WP. Those Tibetans living in India and Nepal or any foreign countries are commiting Tibetan cultural genocide themselves. Generations from now, the majority of those exiled Tibetans will be speaking the native country languages. The roots of Tibetan culture is in Tibet, not in any foreign countries. I hope you understand.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Peter,

you write:
"People like Jaihind (sounds like a Indian name) have lost hope on Chinese,but what this "hope" has been for Chinese? By humiliation,riot & murder,military subversion,foreign powers' patronizing and threatening,media bashing at any reason....? Chinese have been through that "hope" and are preparing for more."

Are you referring to the Cultural revolution and the rule of Mao Zedong during which some 50 million Chinese are supposed to have perished in labour camps, famines, class struggles etc.?
At least "humiliation" and "murder" sounds a lot like it...

And are you suggesting that the Han are not patronizing the Tibetans, e.g. by holding exhibitions in Beijing displaying the dark medieval times before the supposed liberation (i.e. occupation)?
As one Tibetan has put it:
"Thank you for liberating us from whoever you thought you had to liberate us from. We are sufficiently liberated now and you may return home..."

It's amazing that Han bloggers don't seem to care to reflect on their own arguments!

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

Sorry for people who could not read Chinese.But ignoring what's written in Chinese and treating all in Chinese as propaganda only serve to widen the understanding difference and exacerbate tension,leading to nothing to further.

People like Jaihind (sounds like a Indian name) have lost hope on Chinese,but what this "hope" has been for Chinese? By humiliation,riot & murder,military subversion,foreign powers' patronizing and threatening,media bashing at any reason....? Chinese have been through that "hope" and are preparing for more.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

西藏主权问题,没什么含糊的

西藏主权问题,没什么含糊的,历史上西藏就是中国领土的一部分,这没什么不清楚的。现在全世界没有哪个国家承认西藏是独立的,都承认西藏是中国的一部分。

2005年5月,我带中国藏学家代表团去加拿大,不是通过官方,而是作为民间交流,一天去一所大学。有一次座谈会上来了8个藏胞,其中有两个藏胞也算当地的明星人物,经常出现在电视上,在报纸上发表一篇一篇的文章。他们过去也参加过抗议游行。但我们去时没有游行,还请我们吃了饭,我们进行了交流。这些国外藏胞大多数很早离开西藏,对很多国内的东西已经不知道了。他们谈话时习惯用英语说西藏是占领区。我听到这样的说法,就进行纠正,“现在世界各国都承认西藏是中国领土的一部分, 不是达赖最近也承认吗?” 既然如此,就不存在入侵的问题。

改革开放后邓小平说过,除了西藏独立不能谈,其他都可以谈。这就是说,中国在西藏主权问题上的立场和态度是非常明确的。因此没有什么可谈的。这也是中国的传统,国家统一是最大的事,也是最高的原则,没有什么含糊的。因此,闹西藏独立没有什么前途,我曾在瑞士见到一个国外藏胞留了很长的胡子,问他为什么,他说等到西藏独立后才剃掉胡子,我笑着告诉他:“如果20年后我们能再见面,你拿的肯定是印度护照,我拿的依然是中国护照。”

妈妈让我成为藏族第一个博士,我还有8个侄儿,他们都成家了。我的父母已经去世了。我读书是从三年级开始读的。因为我的藏文很好,所以一、二年级没有读,直接跳过去。当时教我们读书的是一个喇嘛,他不会中文,到四年级,我被送到县城读书,才接触中文,课本是中文的,我学中文比较晚,到五年级才学汉语。

我主持学术课题,在藏区做调查,问农牧区的藏民“你愿意孩子学什么语言?”我们发现,学习什么语言,他们是看什么语言对就业好,就学习什么语言。第一个因素是改革开放以后,市场经济,因为城市发展、市场需要,大家有学习汉语的需要。拿离拉萨最近的堆龙来说,它就是一个很典型的反映,这个县的不少农民原来不愿让孩子去读书,最大的原因是因为那时家庭劳动主要是体力活,所以牧民家里的男孩子越多,就越容易富裕。现在不一样了。

我去了一家,男主人包了一辆面包车,跑德龙到拉萨,因为不会汉语,只能坐在那里。后来,他又买了一辆货车,但是运的货物是各个单位的,别人需要你打张条子,你不识字就很困难,所以他现在自己掏钱把孩子送到最好的学校,他说,我已经吃亏了,不能让孩子再吃亏了。

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

国外长大的藏胞,大多不会吃地道的藏餐了,也不会骑马了,受西方“民主”思想的洗脑。所以经常口头离不开“民主”二字,我在想,让我的妈妈和姐姐举个牌子游行,她们肯定会觉得疯了,因为她们没有这种想法。所以你说让牧民游行示威,这合乎传统吗?我看有点像文化大革命了。其实牧民的希望很简单,就是怎样才能多有几头牲畜,多分点草场。这是生存的条件。剩下的,他们最关心,能不能信教,病了是否念经,打卦等。我认为宗教信仰自由主要看六百多万的藏人有没有信仰或不信仰的自由。目前是西藏最好的时期,你可以去朝圣,念经,干什么都行,随时都可以拔脚走。

了解西藏或西藏人,首先要把他们当人类看待,藏族是正常的人类,不是什么“怪物 ”,西藏也不是什么非正常人类居住的“神秘之地”,藏族人民不是天上的神,也不是地下的鬼,他们是人,有与普通人类一样的共同的追求,兜里有钱了,没有手表的买了手表,想坐飞机的就坐了,觉得用电话很方便的就用了。接受很多东西是自愿的,我们到藏族同胞家里去看,有了收音机,电视机,电话,摩托车。我受世界银行的委托,作为咨询专家去做调研工作,有些牧民家里有摩托车,因为牧区都是一马平川的草场,骑摩托车很方便,所以他们就买了。你不能要求他们倒退回去,你要去西藏看看,就明白他们要什么。我们曾在昌都镇调查了20户跑到城里修房子的牧民家庭。为什么牧民愿意到城里去盖房子,弄清楚这个很重要。这20 户人家是牧民中较早富裕起来的人家,为了小孩读书才把家搬到城里,城里的教学质量肯定比乡下要好,而且昌都的人很有经商头脑,靠做点小买卖就能养活一家人。如果说要保护游牧民族的原始状态,让他们再回到牧区,这不太可能。但是过了一段时间,也有些人经商遇到困难,觉得还是回去做单纯的牧民比较好,他们又回去了。这是他们的自然选择。我去这20户人家中最富的那家做客,这家人现在还实行一妻多夫的传统生活方式。看到这家的男主人拿起电话,就拨通成都的长途,问那边虫草的价格多少钱。这种生活就是他们自己选择的。

广大藏族农牧民拥护共产党,因为共产党的宗旨很明确,她为人民服务,西藏历史上曾经被满族统治过,被蒙古族统治过,被英国入侵过,但是没有哪个民族哪个统治者可以做得到像共产党这样好。甚至达赖的哥哥访问北京时说过,和西藏过去相比,现在的西藏让他感触很深,变化很大。当时西藏的财政可能连5公里的公路都修不起。这是真话。解放前的西藏政府的最高利益就是宗教——藏传佛教。70%以上的收入归宗教,连支像样的军队都建立不了,更不用说改善人民生活了。达赖喇嘛的第一辆轿车不是开进西藏的,而是把车的零件拆开,抬进去的。看看现在西藏,坐汽车的农民、牧民比比皆是,没什么稀奇的了。

我在西藏牧区曾经做过一个问卷调查,问你最满意的政策是什么?回答排第一的是民族区域自治,排第二的是宗教信仰自由。这说明当代藏族农牧民对这两项政策的贯彻情况是满意的。

现在有人说西藏全民信教,这种说法不实事求是,我也是藏族,但是我不信教,西藏的国家干部60%-70%都不信教,尤其受过现代教育的年轻干部中也有很多是不信教的。藏族信教分两种,一种是有学位,有经典的喇嘛,而大多数信徒没有组织,没经典,藏族农牧民多是这一类,他们信来世,不分教派,见了喇嘛就磕头。他们对班禅、达赖喇嘛都一样信。

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

喇嘛是不是能在天空中飞?

两名喇嘛在西藏拉萨布达拉宫广场上用手机打电话。 新华社发

两名喇嘛在西藏拉萨布达拉宫广场上用手机打电话。 新华社发

西藏到底是“香格里拉”,还是农奴社会?这曾经是我在美国第一次演讲的题目,记得当时我第一句话是,“我的英语不是你们希望的那么好”,然后就有美国的学者站起来说,“您的英语很好,我们听得懂,但是我们希望您能站起来说。”在国内,我们坐主席台说话习惯了,站起来一时不知道说什么好,但是很快调整了状态,回答了十个问题。有的问题很可笑,有一个学生说,喇嘛是不是能在天空中飞。我很惊讶,我回答,“西藏现在有了飞机,喇嘛坐着飞机在天空中飞是有的。敦煌的壁画上有一种神,叫飞天,我也看到他们在天上飞的壁画。但是你说喇嘛在天空中飞,我没有看见过。”后来,我追问他是从哪里得到这样的误导,他说自己在图书馆翻阅了大量的资料,在那些书中看到这样的描述,他对此很感兴趣,决定了研究西藏。这些人对描写西藏的小说入神了,把它当作是真实的事看了。

我在美国印第安纳大学做了三个月的访问学者,碰到了一个来自家乡的国外藏胞,他听到我说家乡话,很高兴,拉着我见他的朋友,说,“你们听听,这就是我家乡的话。”他离开家乡的时间太久了,已经不会说家乡话了。中国改革开放后,他有机会回我们的家乡。他很激动,从成都开始,坐的全是车,两天就到了,他自己都说,“原来骑马走路,可能两周都未必能到家。”回到我们的村子里,家乡人唱歌跳舞欢迎他,他非常感动。

我在昌都地区做入户调查,选择了20户牧民,20户农民,20户城镇居民做问卷调查,同一个问题,“你希望你的子女长大后当什么”,列出二十个选择,只用画勾。有喇嘛、医生、干部、老师等等,调查表没有回收以前,我猜想列第一位的选择可能是喇嘛,包括国外学者与我讨论中,都说肯定是喇嘛。但是没想到60%的选择是做干部,第二位是医生,尤其是在农村牧区里,选择医生的比例很高。为什么出现这样的结果,我分析认为,从解放到当时的四十多年里,解放前,家里有事情去找头人或活佛,解放后找干部,干部就像自己的父母一样,什么都管解决,接触的都是这样的干部,所以藏胞希望自己家里能出干部,不仅很荣耀,也有稳定的收入。至于当医生,这个很好理解,因为地位高,解放前,以至解放后很长一段时间,要请医生,都是牵最好的牛马去请;甚至有人怀念文化大革命时期,认为那时候高级知识分子和医生随处可见。当然这和牧区的医疗设施比较落后有关,牧区农民的想法是很朴素的。最后调查结果只有3%的人希望子女做喇嘛,我妈妈也经历了想让我做喇嘛,教师,最后到做干部的过程。这个调查能代表西藏大多数人民的想法,很真实。

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

我从藏区走来——新中国第一位藏族博士格勒的自述


格勒,1950年5月出生,是从四川甘孜藏族自治州甘孜县走出来的、新中国培养的第一位人类学博士和第一位藏族博士。现为中国藏学研究中心副总干事、研究员,国际知名藏学家。同时还是美国加州大学客座教授,中央民族大学、西南民族大学客座博士生导师。他除大量学术专著外,还出版了学术随笔《月亮西沉的地方——对西藏阿里人类学田野考察侧记》等散文类作品。—

我和达赖哥哥的“碰撞”

我是一名学者,出生于四川甘孜藏族自治州甘孜县。解放前家里没地没房子,民主改革前,妈妈希望我当喇嘛,因为当喇嘛才能有出息。民主改革后,妈妈希望我当教师,把我送到政府办的小学,一路中学,大学,硕士,读到博士,读了半辈子的书。

现在,不少国家邀请我做学术交流,对我而言,讲课就是向世界说明一个真实的西藏的机会。在美国的加州大学我对美国人讲中国是56个民族的大家庭。我讲什么是马克思的民族理论,什么是民族识别和民族区域自治,什么是民族团结……台下有六十多个学生。通过这样一种非官方的、民间的文化交流的形式,让听众了解到中国少数民族的现实,其中包括西藏的现实。

我作为中国学者,改革开放后先后应邀去美、日、英、法、澳等十多个国家进行学术交流,也曾作为中国NGO代表参加过国际上的首脑会议,人权会议,也曾和流亡在外的达赖的哥哥以及相关的人士面对面交流过。1988年,西藏发生骚乱,当时我在美国做访问学者,当地的一家美国人请我到家里做客,没想到达赖的哥哥也去了,电视里 CNN正在播放西藏骚乱的电视短片,他就开始发难,我则予以反击。最后家庭聚会变成了争论的场所。这个人是达赖的大哥,达赖叛逃离开西藏前后他负责美国的联络工作,1972年中美建交后,他应印第安纳大学的邀请做副教授。本来我觉得大家都是客人,没有想过在这样的场合和他展开辩论,可是他最后说话开始不讲道理,说“汉藏如井水与河水是不能相融的”,我就反驳他,“你是个教授,应该懂得,好人、坏人不是按民族分的。”他说,“我们不讨论这个,你坐在北京,吃北京的饭,满脑子都是中国的思想。”我回击,“这样说来,你在美国,吃美国饭,那是不是满脑子都是美国的思想啊?你在美国如何关心国内几百万藏族同胞的生活问题?”当时不知道他有心脏病,如果知道,可能我的语气会缓和很多,当时他就出汗了,出去转了一个多小时才回来。后来,他的三个儿子请我吃饭,我想了想,去了。为什么呢?因为在美国,十八岁独立,他的儿子是独立的,不能把他的儿子和他混为一谈。这个人是藏族的大贵族,罗布林卡里壁画上有旧西藏群官图,中心是达赖的照片,他当时就站在达赖的旁边,他的地位在没有解放的西藏是很高的。

我之所以敢于与这样有名的人物辩论,因为我有强大的后台,这就是十三亿中国人。解放前我是农奴家庭的孩子,如果不是解放,我是怎么可能和达赖的哥哥平起平坐呢。如今,他是受印第安纳大学的邀请,我是受美国科学院的邀请,他是副教授,我也是副教授,我们俩是平等的。我对很多国外和国内学者讲,了解西藏,首先应该知道传统西藏是分阶级的,少数人是贵族,这部分人多数逃离西藏了。其中西藏95%的人是农奴,没有地,没有房子,解放西藏解放的就是这样一批人,让他们翻身做主人,这有什么不对?现在国际上有不少人自称是为西藏人说话,问题是你为谁说话,是为 95%,还是为5%,现在藏族人口有六百多万人,据说国外有十三万人,当然这个数据不是绝对准确。大多数藏民聚居在中国西藏自治区和青海、甘肃、四川、云南等省份的藏区。了解西藏,就要了解西藏大多数人的意愿是什么,而不是靠想象,我们这些学者的话之所以有人听,就是因为我们的演讲或著作,是挨家挨户调查的成果,也是真实地反映了大多数藏人的意愿。

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

THMAK:

You wrote:
"To Jaihind: The reason "that there is never a single Tibetan posting in support of Chinese rule of Tibet" is that, in order to post, one has to know English proficiently. That means one has to go abroad to study from China. That to those who are anti-China, is cultural genocide. So to preserve Tibetan culture, don't learn anything not related to Tibetan. I hope you understand."

What nonsense!

There are 130.000 Tibetans in India who speak Tibetan, Hindi, English and often Chinese. Furthermore there are tens of thousands of Tibetan refugees in Nepal, Europe, the US, Australia who speak multiple languages.

The arguments you get from Han bloggers are really mostly just silly...

I think, I am giving up hope up on the Chinese as well.
I hope you understand.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

It is not about what Dalai said,it is rather about what Dalai did.

What it tell us by the about-face of Dalai from independence requirement in the past to nowadays greater "autonomy" (no practical change in contents),from military confrontation assisted by CIA to "peaceful" riot this year,from "population genocide" to "cultural genocide",and so on and on? Nothing but renewed trick and trap.

The overwhelming campaign this year out of "coincidence" really scared most of Chinese worldwide.What will play out for the sudden relinquishment of the lip-service-worth "nonviolent" middle way? Wait and see but not hear what the new tricky stuff is this time around.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

Thank you for your patience, here is the full text of the Dalai Lama's March communication to the Chinese people. If you think this is too much text just shout at me, I thought it would be worth your time.

" March 28
An Appeal to the Chinese People from
His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama

Today, I extend heartfelt greetings to my Chinese brothers and sisters round the world, particularly to those in the People's Republic of China. In the light of the recent developments in Tibet, I would like to share with you my thoughts concerning relations between the Tibetan and Chinese peoples, and to make a personal appeal to you all.

I am deeply saddened by the loss of life in the recent tragic events in Tibet. I am aware that some Chinese have also died. I feel for the victims and their families and pray for them. The recent unrest has clearly demonstrated the gravity of the situation in Tibet and the urgent need to seek a peaceful and mutually beneficial solution through dialogue. Even at this juncture I have expressed my willingness to the Chinese authorities to work together to bring about peace and stability.

Chinese brothers and sisters, I assure you I have no desire to seek Tibet's separation. Nor do I have any wish to drive a wedge between the Tibetan and Chinese peoples. On the contrary my commitment has always been to find a genuine solution to the problem of Tibet that ensures the long-term interests of both Chinese and Tibetans. My primary concern, as I have repeated time and again, is to ensure the survival of the Tibetan people's distinctive culture, language and identity. As a simple monk who strives to live his daily life according to Buddhist precepts, I assure you of the sincerity of my motivation."

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

" I have appealed to the leadership of the PRC to clearly understand my position and work to resolve these problems by "seeking truth from facts." I urge the Chinese leadership to exercise wisdom and to initiate a meaningful dialogue with the Tibetan people. I also appeal to them to make sincere efforts to contribute to the stability and harmony of the PRC and avoid creating rifts between the nationalities. The state media's portrayal of the recent events in Tibet, using deceit and distorted images, could sow the seeds of racial tension with unpredictable long-term consequences. This is of grave concern to me. Similarly, despite my repeated support for the Beijing Olympics, the Chinese authorities, with the intention of creating rift between the Chinese people and myself, assert that I am trying to sabotage the games. I am encouraged, however, that several Chinese intellectuals and scholars have also expressed their strong concern about the Chinese leadership's actions and the potential for adverse long-term consequences, particularly on relations among different nationalities.

Since ancient times, Tibetan and Chinese peoples have lived as neighbors. In the two thousand year-old recorded history of our peoples, we have at times developed friendly relations, even entering into matrimonial alliances, while at other times we fought each other. However, since Buddhism flourished in China first before it arrived in Tibet from India, we Tibetans have historically accorded the Chinese people the respect and affection due to elder Dharma brothers and sisters. This is something well known to members of the Chinese community living outside China, some of whom have attended my Buddhist lectures, as well as pilgrims from mainland China, whom I have had the privilege to meet. I take heart from thes meetings and feel they may contribute to a better understanding between our two peoples."

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

I would post this on a Web page and link to it, but my circumstances keep me from doing so.

" The twentieth century witnessed enormous changes in many parts of the world and Tibet, too, was caught up in this turbulence. Soon after the founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949, the People's Liberation Army entered Tibet finally resulting in the 17-Point Agreement concluded between China and Tibet in May 1951. When I was in Beijing in 1954-55, attending the National People's Congress, I had the opportunity to meet and develop a personal friendship with many senior leaders, including Chairman Mao himself. In fact, Chairman Mao gave me advice on numerous issues, as well as personal assurances with regard to the future of Tibet. Encouraged by these assurances, and inspired by the dedication of many of China's revolutionary leaders of the time, I returned to Tibet full of confidence and optimism. Some Tibetan members of the Communist Party also had such a hope. After my return to Lhasa, I made every possible effort to seek genuine autonomy for Tibet within the family of the People's Republic of China (PRC). I believed that this would best serve the long-term interests of both the Tibetan and Chinese peoples.

Unfortunately, tensions, which began to escalate in Tibet from around 1956, eventually led to the peaceful uprising of March 10, 1959, in Lhasa and my eventual escape into exile. Although many positive developments have taken place in Tibet under the PRC's rule, these developments, as the previous Panchen Lama pointed out in January 1989, were overshadowed by immense suffering and extensive destruction. Tibetans were compelled to live in a state of constant fear, while the Chinese government remained suspicious of them. However, instead of cultivating enmity towards the Chinese leaders responsible for the ruthless suppression of the Tibetan people, I prayed for them to become friends, which I expressed in the following lines in a prayer I composed in 1960, a year after I arrived in India: "May they attain the wisdom eye discerning right and wrong, And may they abide in the glory of friendship and love." Many Tibetans, school children among them, recite these lines in their daily prayers."

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

(I am sorry if this seems too long but it is worth reading...)

(Looks like Part 3 of 4)
"
In 1974, following serious discussions with my Kashag (cabinet), as well as the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker of the then Assembly of the Tibetan People's Deputies, we decided to find a Middle Way that would seek not to separate Tibet from China, but would facilitate the peaceful development of Tibet. Although we had no contact at the time with the PRC - which was in the midst of the Cultural Revolution - we had already recognized that sooner or later, we would have to resolve the question of Tibet through negotiations. We also acknowledged that, at least with regard to modernization and economic development, it would greatly benefit Tibet if it remained within the PRC. Although Tibet has a rich and ancient cultural heritage, it is materially undeveloped.

Situated on the roof of the world, Tibet is the source of many of Asia's major rivers, therefore, protection of the environment on the Tibetan plateau is of supreme importance. Since our utmost concern is to safeguard Tibetan Buddhist culture - rooted as it is in the values
of universal compassion - as well as the Tibetan language and the unique Tibetan identity, we have worked whole-heartedly towards achieving meaningful self-rule for all Tibetans. The PRC's
constitution provides the right for nationalities such as the Tibetans to do this.

In 1979, the then Chinese paramount leader, Deng Xiaoping assured my personal emissary that "except for the independence of Tibet, all
other questions can be negotiated." Since we had already formulated our approach to seeking a solution to the Tibetan issue within the
constitution of the PRC, we found ourselves well placed to respond to this new opportunity. My representatives met many times with officials
of the PRC. Since renewing our contacts in 2002, we have had six rounds of talks. However, on the fundamental issue, there has been no concrete result at all. Nevertheless, as I have declared many times, I remain firmly committed to the Middle Way approach and reiterate here
my willingness to continue to pursue the process of dialogue."

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

(2nd of two parts...)

"
This year the Chinese people are proudly and eagerly awaiting the opening of the Olympic Games. I have, from the start, supported
Beijing's being awarded the opportunity to host the Games. My position remains unchanged. China has the world's largest population, a long
history and an extremely rich civilization. Today, due to her impressive economic progress, she is emerging as a great power. This
is certainly to be welcomed. But China also needs to earn the respect and esteem of the global community through the establishment of an
open and harmonious society based on the principles of transparency, freedom, and the rule of law. For example, to this day victims of the
Tiananmen Square tragedy that adversely affected the lives of so many Chinese citizens have received neither just redress nor any official
response. Similarly, when thousands of ordinary Chinese in rural areas suffer injustice at the hands of exploitative and corrupt local
officials, their legitimate complaints are either ignored or met with aggression. I express these concerns both as a fellow human being and
as someone who is prepared to consider himself a member of the large family that is the People's Republic of China. In this respect, I
appreciate and support President Hu Jintao's policy of creating a "harmonious society", but this can only arise on the basis of mutual
trust and an atmosphere of freedom, including freedom of speech and the rule of law. I strongly believe that if these values are embraced,
many important problems relating to minority nationalities can be resolved, such as the issue of Tibet, as well as Eastern Turkistan,
and Inner Mongolia, where the native people now constitute only 20% of a total population of 24 million.

I had hoped President Hu Jintao's recent statement that the stability and safety of Tibet concerns the stability and safety of the
country might herald the dawning of a new era for the resolution of the problem of Tibet. It is unfortunate that despite my sincere
efforts not to separate Tibet from China, the leaders of the PRC continue to accuse me of being a "separatist". Similarly, when Tibetans in Lhasa and many other areas spontaneously protested to express their deep-rooted resentment, the Chinese authorities immediately accused me of having orchestrated their demonstrations. I have called for a thorough investigation by a respected body to look into this allegation.

Chinese brothers and sisters - wherever you may be - with deep concern I appeal to you to help dispel the misunderstandings between
our two communities. Moreover, I appeal to you to help us find a peaceful, lasting solution to the problem of Tibet through dialogue in the spirit of understanding and accommodation.

With my prayers,

Dalai Lama

March 28, 2008

Note: translated from the Tibetan original"

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

To thmak:
This link of Tibet sovereignty debate in Wiki:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_sovereignty_debate

There are many educational and informational debate between pro-FreeTibet westerners and conscientious westerners who study China including Tibet in great depth.I remember on is in NBC forum or something but I cannot retrieve the record now,what a shame.From those debate,all in all,any "legitimate" FREETIBET arguments,especially historical independence,discriminatory population reduction,nation self-determination,Dailai lama as a non-violent Buddhist,are all invalid or arguable at best.

We respect "sympathizers" of Dailai's cause.Yet through this year,their use of half-truth,distortion and slander to estrange Chinese is counterproductive.This leave people to doubt the "sympathizers"' credibility.Gone wth Richard Gere's Hollywood dream to be historically one part of a story of a "Saint" .No mercy!

Had this Chinese government not been a able "dictator" with good governance,what would happen to China according to those Western powers' common practice? Sanction Chinese to change regime or accept hardship in living,send troop into Tibet to set a Great Tibet free zone for Tibet-in-Exile and then break out the ethnic conflict,and above all,use media continue to fabricate a "slave prison" country...

Very impressed by the shoddy show before and during Olympics staged by the Western mainstream media's collaboration with overt and covert political support.The positive side,though,is that this make Chinese knit together strongly.

Washingtonpost is probably one of the very few Westen media back then that still report a little positive side in China issue and did not screen and distort Chinese voice.

Now,the chickens are coming home to roost.The rampant physical and verbal attacked staged by FREETO-BET activists will let them reap what they deserve.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

I recognize Dalai a political leader, not religious at all. Many years I only hear him calling for Free Tibet by all methods, never him gave serious religious topic.

But I like his calculating method, Free Tibet and Peace. It works perfect for hypocrites, like US politicians work for American (Bail out the rich, screw the poor), Liberty for Oil.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Peter34: From what article did you excerpt your various posts with quote references such as :"Finally, the PRC considers all pro-independence movements aimed at ending Chinese sovereignty in Tibet, including British attempts to establish control in the late 19th century and early 20th century [34], the CIA's backing of Tibetan insurgents during the 1950s and 1960s, [35][36] and the Government of Tibet in Exile today, [24] as one long campaign abetted by Western imperialism aimed at destroying Chinese territorial integrity and sovereignty, or destabilizing China. [37]"


thmak Author Profile Page:

To Pomfret: The charisma of Dalai Lama is the result of the propaganda/public relation effort campaign by USA and the various anti-China covert agencies with the purpose of destabilizing China. USA and other Western anti-China thug and goon countires owe Dalai Lama this favor because Dalai Lama,in collusion with them in revolt against China, lost his supreme honor status among the Tibetans and in Tibetan history. They compensates his honor by giving him Nobel peace price, the USA congressional gold medal and various high level honor official receptions just to keep Dalai Lama happy to continue conniving with them. To Tibetans those foreign honors are disgraces because they sigifies that their most worshipped leader is subjected to even higher foreign authorities in order to be recognised/approved as the most revered deity. Moreoer, they are not directly benefitted from them spiritually or economically. Just empty titles. If Dalai Lama don't have those honors, I'm very sure he will be in abysmal depression because he will feel betrayed and be so dumb. When Dalai Lama passes away, the next one, if selected according to tradition, will be a kid. Selection in any other way is a cultural genocide. For the western countries to honor the new kid the way they honor Dalai Lama is entirely impossible and is utterly against their values. The so-called "exile Tibetan government' will devolve, I hope not after Dalai Lama, into a terrorist organization.

AlecLin Author Profile Page:

5)We have all witnessed the development of China in the past 30 years and felt the impact of her subsequent rise in recent decade. The expansion of China power in the next 30 years may be hard to swallow for some, but it is inevitable. Even Condi Rice, whose attitude towards China was once seen to be coldest and most hostile, has acknowledged this.

6)The current Dalai Lama and his supporters can change the rule on how next Dalai Lama is to be selected. One suggestion is to ignore the custom of reincarnation and to have him democratically elected. Some critics think this will be the scariest development for the Chinese authority, but I would say it will be the best they could hope for because it totally goes against the core of Tibet Buddhism. Consequently, the elected Dalai Lama might be elevated to the status of living Buddha by Dharamsala and western press, but he will command little credibility or power over Tibetans residing in Tibet. The current Dalai Lama has accused China of “cultural genocide”, but a democratic election for next Dalai Lama, if it is implemented, will be an ultimate religious blunder and a true cultural genocide. I, even speaking as a non-believer, am surprised that he would utter this.

7)The growing economic ties between China and India increasingly disfavor enthusiasts for Tibetan independence. This is not a “sell-out” of Tibet by the Indian government, but a rational choice they will make (and are already making) in their own interests. One should feel no surprise if the Indian government significantly cuts their financial assistance to Dharamsala right after the decease of the current Dalai Lama . “What a big load off!” they will secretly exclaim. Nepal is even an easier case for China. Just look how Nepalese police beat up the Tibetans protesting in front of the Chinese embassy (as a reminder, these photos were conveniently “misused” by some mainstream western media half year ago, captioned as “Chinese police crack down Tibetan monks.”) . Much to the chagrin of the enthusiasts for Tibetan independence, the current Nepalese government even suggests that the railway from Qinghai to Lhasa extend to Nepal to help with the economic development of their country.

AlecLin Author Profile Page:

3)Afterwards, there will be a new Dalai Lama, the 17th Dalai Lama. The Chinese authority and the Tibetan government in exile each will produce their own selection, to whom each side will claim sole authenticity, like in the case of Panchan Lama. This is the time when the cause of Tibet independence begins to run out of steam, especially among western sympathizers. In the eyes of beholders the current Dalai Lama is indeed a revered religious leader, but the myth surrounding the reincarnation will be a much harder sell. Actually many who went on the streets of Paris, London and San Francisco in April and May of 2008 in support of the Dalai Lama hardly have any knowledge of this historical custom, as some of them are even unable to pinpoint where Tibet is in a map. Many probably think the Dalai Lama is “elected” in a way similar to how the Pope is “elected“ (or “selected”). Some will probably jeer at the notion of re-incarnation upon learning about this. Their support for Tibet independence does not arise from the attraction they feel for Tibet or Tibetan Buddhism, but with their opposition to the Chinese authority (not just for their ruling in Tibet, but in everything). This might be the only aspect the so-called "anti-China force" (Fan3 Hua2 Shi4 Li4) can exploit, but it will be much more difficult to play out with the loss of a world-touring, fluent-English-speaking and best-sellors-planned-one-after-another-but-who-knows-whether-he-is-the-real-author-behind-all-pages 16th Dalai Lama.

4)Suppose the candidate chosen by the Tibetan government in exile wins overwhelming recognition and support from the west (a worst-scenario case for the Chinese authority), it will take at least another 30 years to establish a new religious leader, and it is doubtful whether he will be able to command the same reverence as conferred to the current 16th Dalai Lama, who at least ruled Tibet for some years before his escape to exile 50 years ago. By the time the movement for the Tibetan independence is ready to launch the new and 17th Dalai Lama onto the arena of world politics, the cause itself will probably have fallen into the oblivion of the general public. Of course, this process can be significantly shortened if the 17th Dalai Lama is born with a Nobel Peace Prize in his mouth. Even a US Congressional Medal does not count.

AlecLin Author Profile Page:

Mr. Promfret says: “My analysis is simple: China's government is waiting for the Dalai Lama who is 73 to die. When he does, their calculation is that the Tibetan movement, denied a charismatic leader, will split into factions. The romantic idea of Tibet, which has been so important to the movement over the years, will lose its attraction in Hollywood and among the jet setting cognescenti. The Tibetan movement will devolve into just another movement of a minority culture in a very big world. And China will be essentially off the hook.”
Interestingly, this is exactly the same view I shared with most friends when the riots broke out in April in Tibet and some other parts of China half a year ago.

To extend Mr. Promfret’s view, I offer a few comments as a political realist:

The current western fascination with Tibet largely lies in the persona of 16th Dalai Lama, not the associated religious custom, which has been in the practice in Tibet for hundreds of years but which receives virtually no detailed treatment in the mainstream media in the west (not their job anyway). Tibet Buddhism as a religion itself has not won many converts among western political and cultural celebrities, with the only – and most notable - exception of Richard Gere. Its slow and very limited growth might offer some self-comfort to its practitioners, but honestly speaking Tibetan Buddhism in the west looks more like an intriguing novelty for the few curious and self-selected “spiritualists” at most, and will remain so in the near foreseeable future. It will lose much of its charm with the passing away of the 16th Dalai Lama.

2)I foresee bigger and more persistent riots around the time of Dalai Lama’s death. It could last for weeks or even months in Tibet and some neighboring areas. The Chinese authority will experience a most trying time around this period. But noise will quiet down in a few months, and the agenda regarding Tibet’s future will be more, if not totally, in the hands of the Chinese authority.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: The reason "that there is never a single Tibetan posting in support of Chinese rule of Tibet" is that, in order to post, one has to know English proficiently. That means one has to go abroad to study from China. That to those who are anti-China, is cultural genocide. So to preserve Tibetan culture, don't learn anything not related to Tibetan. If you resent Tibet belonging to China, then ally with the Native Americans, Alaskians, Irish, Native Australians and Hawiians to form a larger and more powerful group to campaign the common cause. I hope you understand.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Tibetanman: Your conspiracy :The Dalai Lama's surrender clears the way for us Tibetans to adopt a more grassroots, less diplomatic, less conciliatory, more hard-hitting and unilateral approach to fighting for our freedom. By engaging in proactive, nonviolent satyagraha, we will no longer need China's consent to advance toward the goal of a free Tibet." will definitely brand the exiled Tibetan organizations and any of their supporters as terrorists and will be prosecuted world wide including in USA under UN mandate. I hope you understand. I hope you are not too ignorant to know that China was occupied by many foreign tribes such as the Mongolian and the Qing that established the Qing dynasty in China. The final outcomes of those occupations are that China wound up occupying the occupants for good. So if Japan and USA would occupy China, China would eventually occupy Japan and USA for good. I hope you understand.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

The Dalai Lama is destroying the teachings of Buddha Shakyamuni


The Dalai Lama is destroying all Buddhism in this world by granting false teachings. He has become the Hollywood monk and saavy politician, enjoying a jet-setting lifestyle, dining with the rich and famous, and then teaching whatever he thinks will please his audience.

Times Online printed an article about the Dalai Lama in France. In this article appears the following statements by the Dalai Lama:

"We should strive for inner peace in the concert of God.... We also have responsibility to take care of the planet. The trees and all beautiful things are the creation of God. Harmony is very very essential."

Buddhists famously don't believe in God the Creator. We say that everything was created by mind -- this is an essential tenet of Buddhism.

At a talk in Seattle in April of this year he was asked "how can people enhance and develop their compassion". A very simple question with a very clear Buddhist answer that he should have been able to give. Watch the video.

He said "when we are born we are all the same". The Dalai Lama's answer denies the basic teachings of karma. We are not "all the same" at the time of birth. We all bring the karmic potentials from our previous lives into our next life.

He said that more study needed to be done to answer the question. That statement was to appease the scientists that he likes to talk and discuss with. Buddha taught complete and perfect teachings on how to develop and increase our compassion until we have the universal compassion of a Buddha. Why did the Dalai Lama not give a Buddhist answer?

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

Who is Dalai Lama?(continue...)

Reporter:
For the first time, I discover an authoritarian face – himself the wise Tibetan is calling for the exclusion of the faithful. Why, and who is this deity? To understand this, I am going to meet Dorje Shugden followers. These monks are for the Dalai Lama dangerous extremists.

Monk: Go ahead, this way.

Reporter:
Hidden at the back of this prayer hall, I finally discover the deity Dorje Shugden. He is holding a knife in his right hand and a human heart in the other. For his followers, Shugden brings protection, but for the Dalai Lama this deity encourages violence, and is the one who is dividing Tibet.

Monk: This deity has never divided Tibetans. This is untrue. It is the Dalai Lama who has divided us, by banning Shugden practice. Before, everything was going well. The community was living in peace.

Reporter:
Today, Shugden followers are expelled from their monasteries, and their photos are posted in the streets. A witch hunt has started in Southern India, and on this matter, the Dalai Lama has the answer of a specialist in logic.

Dalai Lama: I guarantee you, I have never given the order to get rid of Shugden followers. Nothing came from above. It is the Abbots themselves who decide these expulsions.

Reporter:
In fact, the Dalai Lama would suspect these monks of being manipulated by China ; and I will even find some of these new types of opponents in France.

Demo: Dalai Lama, liar!

Reporter:
A strong demonstration on the beach of La Baule. These European buddhists parade with an impactful slogan, even if unpleasant.

Man on the sidewalk: You are being used by the Chinese !

Reporter:
All these Buddhists are demonstrating to help their Tibetan brothers, followers of the deity Shugden. Anabelle comes from Marseille. This opponent is pointing the finger at the Dalai Lama’s contradictions.

Anabelle: It is fradulent on the Dalai Lama’s part to wear the two robes — that of the politician and the monk. The Dalai Lama is a politician, and that means he has political interests. We need to realize this because in the West we don’t want to see the truth — we want by any means to see a stainless man on the political stage.

Reporter:
The principal criticism from these European dissidents: the Dalai Lama’s religious intolerance.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

Who is the Dalai Lama?

By goldenmala

Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden Blog - Below is a translation of part of the documentary on the Dalai Lama shown on France 2, one of the most popular documentary TV channels in France. This was watched by 4,000,000 to 5,000,000 people on Thursday October 9, 2008. Sur les traces du Dalaï Lama

Dalai Lama: That’s true, I am still the head of state, but it is because of the special situation of Tibet. I’m leading a national fight; this is not ordinary politics.

If there was a democratic debate between two democratic parties as you have in your country, then the Dalai Lama and the monks should give up their power.

Reporter:
Thus, the Dalai Lama would be the head of government despite himself, entrusted with a divine mission: Save Tibet. But do all his people agree with him, and can other views be heard?

It is by investigating the monasteries that I’ll come to know the answer.
In Southern India, I meet some dissident monks. They have chosen another way.

Lobsang Yeshe and Namgyal were previously the Dalai Lama’s bodyguards. 50 years ago, they saved the life of the head of Tibet, running away from the Chinese. But today, they feel betrayed.

Lobsang Yeshe: The Dalai Lama, I don’t want to hear about him any more. He is no longer the Buddha of Compassion. He is a traitor. The Dalai Lama has commited the gravest crime. He has divided all the Tibetans. He is against our deity, Dorje Shugden. He has forbidden us from venerating him. Because of him, I had a heart attack. Today, I am a broken man.

Reporter:
The Dalai Lama, Ocean of Wisdom, has offended his old friends. Furthermore, in January 2008, he will lose a bit of his composure. In front of thousands of supporters, he speaks with an exceptional violence against the followers of this mysterious deity: Dorje Shugden.

Dalai Lama: Because of this deity, some have became violent, it’s intolerable. I don’t want any more disorder in the monasteries. And to those who are not happy, tell them that the Dalai Lama approves of the expulsions prescribed by the abbots in the temples.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

PETER34,

you write:
"You don't have have to use those dissidents issue to discredit this Chinese government.In Tibet issue,there is not difference between Chinese government and ordinary Chinese people.Look close to the poster here,some people's forefather suffered in the communist regime in the past,but they would never waiver to the crooked rhetoric of FREE-ToBET."

And you are right. There is hardly any difference (although it has to be said that Chinese dissidents are usually sympathetic with the Tibetans - no wonder).

But you may have also noticed there is hardly any difference between the Tibetan government in exile and ordinary Tibetans, except that the latter seem to have run out of patience earlier. And, more significantly, you may also have noticed that there is never a single Tibetan posting in support of Chinese rule of Tibet.
It would make me wonder...

Surely, if the Japanese had been successful in occupying China, the Japanese would support their government as well. I wonder if the Chinese would heap praise on their Japanese masters as they do in turn expect the Tibetans to do?

The pirate may be in firm possession of his loot currently but can he ever feel safe about it?

If the Chinese claim that Tibet is part of China is not supported by the Tibetans, it is nothing but a lie, however many Chinese history books are quoted or anti-Chinese conspiracy plots are thrown in to diffuse the argument!

richardwong Author Profile Page:

http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/30/a-sichuan-family-and-tibets-future/

Don't regard chinese government as an evil, also it goes to extrem if you take Dalai Lama as an only spiritual leader cos he's also an political leader governing the slavery system. Communist party ended his theocracy and slavery system. From this angle, i think chinese government is right.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

JAIHIND :

And, yes, in that sense they are far ahead of their Chinese "brothers and sisters" where dissidents are still locked up, sent to labor camps or simply ignored by the silent majority...
================
(continue...)
Whatever your call Tibet used to be independent by itself or what,there are many experts debate about this topic and no consensus so far.There are numerous debat on the internet,repeating this futile argument is pointless.

Self-determination in reality is in the air-you could have a try to ask U.S government treat Kosovo and Ossetia equally,or you could ask U.S government to give Indian the right to build their independent Lacota motherland.

You could represent Tibetan-in-Exile,but you could not for all Tibetan in China.Tibetan in China is faring well,so the only blame has to be "cultural genocide" to in fact serve your political gratification.Or someday,it doesn't surprise us that you guys would coin a "psychological genocide" like spectacle.

What goes around,comes around.Using riot in March backfired and nonviolent satyagraha to come only shows people the shift of your trick rather than a proceeding of a consistent genuine cause.Humiliating and bombardment during the Olympics make more Chinese,whether pro- or anti-Chinese government,wise to the pernicious political nature of this Free-ToBET movement,which tried to connive with Western politics and as such make itself notorious.

The world is in financial turmoil.Now people know antagonizing others also put themselves in peril.You could have called EU not to engage in any meeting in China and boycott China again.But would they do as you call? U.S has put its argument of ideology aside and nationalized its financial system.When they are in trouble as poor countries like China have been,their reaction is no different from others. People are liberal when they are not affected,which is a human nature.But the point is, too bad,nobody has free money to donate for this futile Free-ToBet cause now.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

JAIHIND :

And, yes, in that sense they are far ahead of their Chinese "brothers and sisters" where dissidents are still locked up, sent to labor camps or simply ignored by the silent majority...
================

Tell me in which country the dissidents publicly,aggressively,and regularly calling for overthrowing the government and splitting the country won't be arrested? You could have a good shot in Britian,couldn't you? We wait for your heroic action.

There are numerous dissidents without being "cruelly" treated like you described in China who freely express their opinion on internet and other media yet respect the law and order of this society.Because of those dissidents' valuable information,the central government crashed the corrupted officials.

Your conjecture of those horrible things going on in China make me believe you are that generation that lived and are branded by the time of Cold War.Otherwise,you are professionally misleading.

You don't have have to use those dissidents issue to discredit this Chinese government.In Tibet issue,there is not difference between Chinese government and ordinary Chinese people.Look close to the poster here,some people's forefather suffered in the communist regime in the past,but they would never waiver to the crooked rhetoric of FREE-ToBET.

To put the blame on the Han Chinese or Chinese government,Dr.Pormfret oddly neglected some important facts that have not changed so far: the constitution of Tibet-government-in-exile still includes independence,Dalai Lama is more of a politician than of a spirit leader of moral strength,Tibet Independence Movement has been funded by Western government majorly for anti-China campaign instead of "Democracy" and so far they failed many times militarily and politically.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

RICHARDWONG,

what do you want to say? What is "the real fact"?

That there is only one opinion on an issue? That the Tibetan struggle has one face only? And only one possible outcome?
That if I support you in your cause and if I don't share your objective fully, *you* are a liar?
I mean, sorry, but what immature thinking is this?

The Tibet issue is about self-determination - in whatever form, independence or autonomy. And as the Dalai Lama is stepping aside, the Tibetans will start a whole new political process - within and without.

And, yes, in that sense they are far ahead of their Chinese "brothers and sisters" where dissidents are still locked up, sent to labor camps or simply ignored by the silent majority...

richardwong Author Profile Page:

when we talking abt these issues, we will find some people always guiding to independence issue. So chinese top officials surely knows what's happending to Dalai lama's education content. He's a liar. If you want to distinguish the person, not just listen to him abt what he said, look at what kind of his friends and followers around him. That's the real fact.

wabewalker Author Profile Page:

Tibetanman,

Well, Ghandi was able to lead Indians to reclaim their country through nonviolent protest. But he was dealing with the UK, which recognized that India was a colony only and was willing to leave when pressed. I doubt that nonviolent protests would work. If they're effective enough protests, the government will just shoot as many protesters as they like, take everyone's cameras and claim the police were shot at first. I'm sorry to be so pessimistic.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

ALECLIN,

while you have worked out the difference in the world views of Chinese and Tibetans very thoughtfully (and even earned the approval of Peter the 34th), I am not able to follow your conclusion:

"Now back to the realm of political realism, the confrontation surrounding the Tibet issue is much more of a political struggle (or bargaining) than a religious or ideological competition between the Chinese authority and the Tibetan government in exile (and their supporters)."

If, as you worked out in the preceding paragraphs, Chinese and Tibetan minds "don't meet", how can you move on to say that it is *not* a religious or ideological competition?
The Chinese try very hard to control and uproot every aspect of Tibetan life (religious worship, language, nomad life and so on), and the Tibetans, as much as they can, put up a fight to keep "what remains of them".

Unfortunately, it has not been much of an outright political struggle up to now, but as TIBETANMAN writes:
The Dalai Lama's surrender "clears the way for us Tibetans to adopt a more grassroots, less diplomatic, less conciliatory, more hard-hitting and unilateral approach to fighting for our freedom. By engaging in proactive, nonviolent satyagraha, we will no longer need China's consent to advance toward the goal of a free Tibet."

And the Tibetans can be sure to have the sympathy of the Western "Greek heritage" world, however much this is resented by the Chinese.

whocarestibet Author Profile Page:

JAIHIND:

I have been to Tibeten areas in China many times, together with my collegues from different international organizations. We saw the real life for Tibeten people. They all can speak Tibeten and meanwhile they understand mandarin. Usually for each family the eldest son would be sent to the temple to study Buddhism, just like what they did for hundreds of years. The people there are enjoying their peaceful life. Every night they were gathering at someone's house, singing, dancing and drinking. My collegues and I were so impressed by their happiness.

In addition, I have a friend whose father works for Dalai's government-in-exile. I knew this Tibeten girl because we took the same economic classes when we were at school, in North America. I don't think my tibeten friend had any feelings of indignity when we talked about tibeten issues. Instead, she was dreaming that one day she could pay a visit to Tibet when she got a passport (like most tibetens in Northe America, she was a refugee). Just a few monthes ago she called me and told me a good news that her dreams could come true. The government finally issued a passport for her.

I think the reason my Tibeten friend dose not share the same feeling with you is because she dose not have to work for Dalai's government. With a master degree on economics, she could easily find a job in North America. As far as I know, however, many tibetens in North America are working for some anti-china organizations because they otherwise can not find any other employment opportunities. In this regard, I think you are forgivable.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

AlecLin Author Profile Page:

In my view, unsuccessful communications between Han Chinese and Tibetans lie in the unreligious nature of the Chinese culture, in contrast to the deep - and often archaic-looking - religious conviction held by the Tibetans. Speaking of religion, Taoism and Buddhism do constantly creep into the daily lives of many Chinese, but hardly in the manner of sacred doctrines to follow. You know what believers are praying for in Buddhist temples in China? Peace (or personal safety, to be accurate) and prosperity (aka making money). Besides Taoism and Buddhism, Confucianism is usually considered as the biggest “religion” in China, but it is essentially a set of rules for maintaining social orders and social control. No wonder it often wins official favor, with the call for “societal harmony” by Hu Jintao as the latest example.

In other words, the Chinese culture does not embody the Greek-styled pursuit for ultimate truth (or the question of “being” in the metaphysical sense) and justice as absorbed by western culture, whose influence permeates Christianity and secular philosophy nowadays (and here I speak as an atheist myself). The Chinese pursuit is for peace and wealth, and they assume other people to cherish the same and nothing different. This is why many Chinese, including the ruling authority, are constantly bewildered by the frustration felt by Tibetans and ask the following question: “I’ve already given you so much money than you can ever dreamed of and made your life much better than before, why are you still not happy with me?” As both the Chinese people and the Chinese authority share the same bewilderment, attacking the Chinese government is not likely to win a nod from the Chinese people, who are gaining bigger and bigger voice in social affairs and who determine the future of China. Moreover, the recent rise of China only serves as the self-evident and therefore most powerful counter attack, and the Chinese authority does not need to mobilize the Chinese netizens to accomplish this, as some westerners habitually and conveniently jump to suspect. In comparison, Tibetans steadfastly clinging to their faith while slipping deeper and deeper in poverty might be eulogized in the western press as “a true preservation of culture”, but it is not an attractive picture for envy in the eyes of the Han Chinese.

Now back to the realm of political realism, the confrontation surrounding the Tibet issue is much more of a political struggle (or bargaining) than a religious or ideological competition between the Chinese authority and the Tibetan government in exile (and their supporters). The side who has the upper hand is unlikely to give in or give up anything (and why should he?). Some token gestures of good will can be made, but no real yield will come. Dalai Lama’s disappointment is an inevitable outcome of this political reality.
================================
Insightful!! This is the real thing to learn!!

richardwong Author Profile Page:

If you looking into the problem carefully, you will find that there are foreigner's interference in Hongkong, Taiwan, Tibet issue. Why don't ask why?

AlecLin Author Profile Page:

In my view, unsuccessful communications between Han Chinese and Tibetans lie in the unreligious nature of the Chinese culture, in contrast to the deep - and often archaic-looking - religious conviction held by the Tibetans. Speaking of religion, Taoism and Buddhism do constantly creep into the daily lives of many Chinese, but hardly in the manner of sacred doctrines to follow. You know what believers are praying for in Buddhist temples in China? Peace (or personal safety, to be accurate) and prosperity (aka making money). Besides Taoism and Buddhism, Confucianism is usually considered as the biggest “religion” in China, but it is essentially a set of rules for maintaining social orders and social control. No wonder it often wins official favor, with the call for “societal harmony” by Hu Jintao as the latest example.

In other words, the Chinese culture does not embody the Greek-styled pursuit for ultimate truth (or the question of “being” in the metaphysical sense) and justice as absorbed by western culture, whose influence permeates Christianity and secular philosophy nowadays (and here I speak as an atheist myself). The Chinese pursuit is for peace and wealth, and they assume other people to cherish the same and nothing different. This is why many Chinese, including the ruling authority, are constantly bewildered by the frustration felt by Tibetans and ask the following question: “I’ve already given you so much money than you can ever dreamed of and made your life much better than before, why are you still not happy with me?” As both the Chinese people and the Chinese authority share the same bewilderment, attacking the Chinese government is not likely to win a nod from the Chinese people, who are gaining bigger and bigger voice in social affairs and who determine the future of China. Moreover, the recent rise of China only serves as the self-evident and therefore most powerful counter attack, and the Chinese authority does not need to mobilize the Chinese netizens to accomplish this, as some westerners habitually and conveniently jump to suspect. In comparison, Tibetans steadfastly clinging to their faith while slipping deeper and deeper in poverty might be eulogized in the western press as “a true preservation of culture”, but it is not an attractive picture for envy in the eyes of the Han Chinese.

Now back to the realm of political realism, the confrontation surrounding the Tibet issue is much more of a political struggle (or bargaining) than a religious or ideological competition between the Chinese authority and the Tibetan government in exile (and their supporters). The side who has the upper hand is unlikely to give in or give up anything (and why should he?). Some token gestures of good will can be made, but no real yield will come. Dalai Lama’s disappointment is an inevitable outcome of this political reality.

tibetanman Author Profile Page:

I want to thank Mr. Pomfret for his honest, sharp, and clear analysis of China's current approach to Tibet and the Dalai Lama. While it was saddening to see my leader, the Dalai Lama, admit the futility of his efforts, it is encouraging to hear him speak his mind and mince no meat in expressing his frustration. This clears the way for us Tibetans to adopt a more grassroots, less diplomatic, less conciliatory, more hard-hitting and unilateral approach to fighting for our freedom. By engaging in proactive, nonviolent satyagraha, we will no longer need China's consent to advance toward the goal of a free Tibet.
By the way, I challenge the pro-CCP Chinese visitors on this site to engage in honest and mature discussions and tell me whether you would fight for freedom if China was under Japanese or American occupation today. Or would you rather justify their invasion of your homeland by telling yourself that they "developed" your country?

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

WHOCARESTIBET,

excuse me for being the "typical FREE TOBET ideologist". The party line sloganer has surely detected my identity... ;-)

It's cute how he is warning you to stay away from someone like me. As a good Chinese maybe you should...

BTW:
I didn't "curse China to doom". But, naturally, he has to put me in that corner to keep his countrymen from straying...

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

To WHOCARESTIBET:

"Please note there are 56 nations in China, many of them have their own langues and used to have their own lands."

As you say: "used to have"
Because the Han are more than a billion people, do they think they can swamp all other places regardless of the sentiments of the local people?
China is multi-ethnic in name only. What power do any of these nationalities enjoy? Any Tibetans wielding power in Beijing, in the army or anywhere? Or any Uighurs or Mongols for that matter?

"Do you think they should all split from China? Hard to believe nowadays there are still believers for 'Racial segregation'."

Who said they should all split from China?
Tibet's status is different and it has not been finalized historically.
You tell me:
Why did China on its occupation of Tibet force the Tibetans to sign the 17-point-agreement if Tibet had obviously been part of China?

"No wonder Dailai is losing his repution around the world."

The Dalai Lama is not losing his reputation, the contrary is the case. In contrast, Hu Jintao never enjoyed one.

"By the way, please go back to history books and tell us since when Tiben has become an independent country,"

When did I claim that "Tiben has become an independent country"? What I am saying is, it *ought* to be one! At the least, it ought to enjoy the high degree of autonomy that the Chinese promised on their invasion.

"and how the Tibeten Buddhist reincarnations had been claimed since Qing dynasty (more than 200 years ago). I think the Chinese governemnt is doing the same thing like the Qing governemnt did."

So you think it is perfectly fine that an atheist, Communist government should decide about a religious matter concerning believers in all parts of the world? Is that supposed to be freedom of religion as even nominally promised in the Chinese constitution?
It always amazes me how Chinese support *any* move of their government as long as their own life is not affected...

"Next time when you post your comments, please show us your options supported by data and facts, not by hysteria."

Fact is: the Tibet issue has not been settled. There is any amount of evidence for it.

And as I said: why would you be hysterical? You're not Tibetan, you're not affected, you don't care about their right to lead a self-determined life in dignity...

WHOCARESTIBET...

Why should people who don't care about Tibet, namely the Chinese, have any say on the Tibetans' future? It's only up to the Tibetans to do so!

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

whocarestibet Author Profile Page:

to JAIHIND:

Please note there are 56 nations in China, many of them have their own langues and used to have their own lands. Do you think they should all split from China? Hard to believe nowadays there are still believers for 'Racial segregation'. No wonder Dailai is losing his repution around the world.

By the way, please go back to history books and tell us since when Tiben has become an independent country, and how the Tibeten Buddhist reincarnations had been claimed since Qing dynasty (more than 200 years ago). I think the Chinese governemnt is doing the same thing like the Qing governemnt did.

Next time when you post your comments, please show us your options supported by data and facts, not by hysteria.
====================================================
To whocarestibet -You are arguing with a slogan-er,who's claiming everything comes out of "communist" China is bad,Chinese are bad because they like to make money,only China make propaganda,and most importantly China is cursed by him to doom. This is the typical FREE-TOBET ideologist.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Wow, the Olympics are over and one thing hasn't changed: Chinese only care about money!

I remember my first time in Hongkong, feeling like being in some unreal movie, the Chinese having $signs in their eyes like the famous old duck...

How could the Dalai Lama waste 50 years on negotiating with these people?

Tibetans have never been Chinese, they never want to be. Let's restart the Tibet issue from this basic fact.
Communist lies and propaganda have vanished in other parts of the world, they will die in China too...

whocarestibet Author Profile Page:

to JAIHIND:

Please note there are 56 nations in China, many of them have their own langues and used to have their own lands. Do you think they should all split from China? Hard to believe nowadays there are still believers for 'Racial segregation'. No wonder Dailai is losing his repution around the world.

By the way, please go back to history books and tell us since when Tiben has become an independent country, and how the Tibeten Buddhist reincarnations had been claimed since Qing dynasty (more than 200 years ago). I think the Chinese governemnt is doing the same thing like the Qing governemnt did.

Next time when you post your comments, please show us your options supported by data and facts, not by hysteria.

charlie1111 Author Profile Page:

Wow! The Olympics are over and there are still people care about Dalai Lama?

Dalai lama is having a bad time. The world economy is in a puddle. And the western governments are cutting his salary. And the financial support for his "local chapters" are dropping as well. So I guess he needs a new strategy to raise money.

The only way out for him is to forget about the independence and try to negotiate a somewhat honorable way to return to China. Maybe he can be a factor in selecting the next Dalai Lama. Anyway, I spent too much time on this topic. I need to do my daily check of my 401k.

Hypocrite1 Author Profile Page:

Another 200 points drop in DOW JONES. That made my return this year of 20%. I love America. I am looking forward to tomorrow's trading.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

General,

way back in the 7th century Tibetans and Chinese agreed that

"Tibetans should be happy in Tibet and Chinese should be happy in China."

It is a (Han) Chinese notion that Tibet is part of what they understand to be China, it is not a Tibetan notion!
Tibet has at least as much of a relationship to countries south of the Himalayas (Nepal, Bhutan, India) as it has with Han China.

Tibetans have for thousands of years stood tall on their own, having their own land, culture, language and religion. They don't want the Han to run their place any more than the Han Chinese wanted the Japanese to run theirs...

How can the Communist government in Beijing, for example, claim the right to acknowledge Tibetan Buddhist reincarnations? Tibetans or people of Tibetan stock and religion live all across the Himalayas and as modern day refugees all over the world.

The Han Chinese patronizing of the Tibetans is really sickening. Unfortunately, the Tibetans are too few, too poor and too remote to withstand the onslaught of a billion Chinese, and the Chinese themselves have been brainwashed successfully into thinking that "Tibet has always been a part of China" which it definitely was not (see above).

It is a shame that most Han Chinese mistake propaganda for their own original thoughts...

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

It is a damaging psychological war by Western media by neglecting what this Chinese government has achieve economically and politically and demonizing this Chinese government,who is the only government for the last hundreds years in Chinese history that is able to protect the territory intact.

Whoever is against Chinese government,from those corrupted Chinese officials to Eastern Turkestan terrorists, whoever has the passport and permit to stay in U.S.Is this pathetic? Now wonder Chinese and people in the rest of the world wise up today to media written in English,the self-appointed "world" media.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

F. William Engdahl[43] writes:
“ Washington has obviously decided on an ultra-high risk geopolitical game with Beijing's by fanning the flames of violence in Tibet just at this sensitive time in their relations and on the run-up to the Beijing Olympics. It's part of an escalating strategy of destabilization of China which has been initiated by the Bush Administration over the past months, and which includes the attempt to ignite an anti-China Saffron Revolution in the neighboring Myanmar region...The background actors in the Tibet actions confirm that Washington has been working overtime in recent months to prepare another of its infamous Color Revolutions...As in the other recent Color Revolutions... the US Government is fanning the flames of destabilization against China by funding opposition protest organizations inside and outside Tibet through its arm, the National Endowment for Democracy (NED)...In short, US State Department and US intelligence community finger prints are all over the upsurge around the Free Tibet movement and the attacks of March...and NED operations embodied a series of 'democratic' or soft coup projects as part of a larger strategy which would strategically cut China off from access to its vital external oil and gas reserves.[44] ”

Tom Grunfeld also writes:
“ U.S. public diplomacy skirts the independence issue, focusing on criticism of human rights abuses. Yet recent concessions and overtures to the Tibet Lobby are seen as evidence by CCP hard-line factions that Washington’s ultimate goal is to fracture China.[41] ”

The German-Foreign-Policy.com writes:
“ Berlin is using the upheaval in the western region of the People's Republic of China to pursue its campaign of attrition against Beijing...Supporting extensive autonomy rights for Tibet and even its secession is in line with the traditional German East Asia policy. Already in the 1930s and 1940s, Berlin considered this region to be an important base for expanding its influence toward China. Since the mid 1980s, Germany has been reviving this strategy, and organizations of German "Volksgruppen" (ethnic group) policy are among those actively promoting a "free Tibet". The secessionist policy is also aimed at other vast regions of China (Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang). Fearing its future power, Berlin is seeking to weaken its ascending East Asian rival. Last fall, german-foreign-policy.com published a series of special reports on the history and presence of German Tibet policy. Because of the current events we are providing free access to those analyses over the next few weeks. Click here to find Strategies of Attrition...[45]

Peter34 Author Profile Page:


And after the Cold War:
“ While officially recognizing Tibet as part of China, the U.S. Congress and White House unofficially encourage the campaign for independence.[41] ”

According to Michael Parenti, the US continues its policy of interference in Tibetan affairs today:
“ Throughout the 1960s, the Tibetan exile community was secretly pocketing $1.7 million a year from the CIA...Into the twenty-first century, via the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and other conduits that are more respectable sounding than the CIA, the U.S. Congress continued to allocate an annual $2 million to Tibetans in India, with additional millions for “democracy activities” within the Tibetan exile community.[24] ”

Much of the NED's fund goes to Tibet independence support groups. This democracy promotion invites suspicion. According to Michael Barker:
“ the NEDs first acting president, observed that in fact “A lot of what we [the NED] do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA”...it appears that the NED was envisaged by US foreign policy elites to be a more suitable way to provide strategic funding to nongovernmental organizations than via covert CIA funding...Barker (2006) has illustrated the NED’s anti-democratic involvement in facilitating and manipulating the ‘colour revolutions’ which recently swept across Eastern Europe...the NED’s activities are intimately linked with those of the CIA. This article has demonstrated the close ties that exist between the Dalai Lama’s non-violent campaign for Tibetan independence and U.S. foreign policy elites who are actively supporting Tibetan causes through the NED...the overwhelmingly anti-democratic nature of the NED can only weaken the legitimacy of the claims of any group associated with the NED.[42] ”

Peter34 Author Profile Page:


A British Foreign Office's report titled Tibet and the Issue on China's "Suzerainty", issued in March 1943, proposed depriving China of its suzerainty over Tibet. Fearing that China would resort to force, the British Foreign Office consulted with the Indian Affairs Office and backed out of the plan.[38]

Tibetologist Melvyn C. Goldstein writes about CIA involvement in Tibet leading up to the uprising against Chinese rule in the 1950s:
“ Moreover, by 1956 the U.S. was encouraging the anti-Chinese faction, and in 1957, actually started to train and arm Tibetan guerrillas. Mao... reduced the number of Han cadre and troops in Tibet...the [1959] Tibetan rebellion also failed dismally...The CIA subsequently assisted the guerrillas in establishing a safe-haven base of operations in northern Nepal...[39] ”
“ A case can be made that U.S. active involvement in the 1950s, particularly from 1956, played a significantly role in destabilizing Tibet and inadvertently fostering the uprising in 1959...[40] ”

The New York Times commented on the American policy during the 1960s:
“ The decade-long covert program to support the Tibetan independence movement was part of the C.I.A.'s worldwide effort to undermine Communist governments, particularly in the Soviet Union and China.[35] ”

The American Tibetologist Tom Grunfeld writes that during The Cold War:
“ From exile, the Dalai Lama oversaw refugee resettlement and guerrilla warfare—although he officially renounced all violence. CIA support encouraged insurgent Tibetans to continue their war for independence, but the CIA was more interested in harassing communist China than in promoting Tibetan independence.[41] ”

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

Here comes from Wiki:
Foreign interventions

Finally, the PRC considers all pro-independence movements aimed at ending Chinese sovereignty in Tibet, including British attempts to establish control in the late 19th century and early 20th century [34], the CIA's backing of Tibetan insurgents during the 1950s and 1960s, [35][36] and the Government of Tibet in Exile today, [24] as one long campaign abetted by Western imperialism aimed at destroying Chinese territorial integrity and sovereignty, or destabilizing China. [37]

Shen Jirao writes on China Tibet Information Center website:
“ From 1913 to 1914, China was forced to send delegates to attend the tripartite conference at Simla...the British attempted to divide the areas inhabited by the Tibetans into "outer Tibet" which was Tibet, and "inner Tibet" which was composed of areas inhabited by the Tibetans in the four provinces neighboring Tibet. China would administer "inner Tibet" for the time being, but refrain from meddling with the affairs of "outer Tibet" which would follow the system of autonomy. The British controlled "outer Tibet" in a short period of time, and those who stood for "Tibetan independence" lauded the British occupation as "Tibetan autonomy" and even a period of "Tibetan independence"...

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

MartindeMars:

It is interesting to see that Promfret is neglecting the biggest obstacle between the Chinese and the Dalai lama: Dalai Lama's claim on Great Tibet and the request of racial cleanliness in Great Tibet.
================
Dr.Promfret leave out a lot important facts,making me think whether he is or tried not to be a experts knowing China issue.

Viewing the pursuits of the Dalai Lama, "Tibet independence" has always been obviously written in his so-called "Exile-Government Constitution," with no revisions ever made to date. Some people in the world kept on saying that the Dalai Lama has abandoned "Tibet independence. " In fact, however, they can know the whole truth by just spending one minute reading the "Constitution."

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

---I don't think there is any evidence that the Dalai Lama organized the protests in March. But under Chinese law there doesn't have to be any, right?---

My father, my grandpa all were persecuted ans sat in jail for years during culture revolution, nor my grandpa protested ever, and my father were policed away to jail for his protest, they hate Chinese government for their whole life, but they are also patriots. They invite all Chinese for party even the foreign students after 1980 when China opened her door,

But what's your and Dalai's argument is that you are different than other Chinese ethnic, the Han were persecute you, if you are against the corrupt government I am with you, but you are one of that make different that you can separate OUR(Include YOUR)country.

Is it your unique belief is that Tibet should not allow any other Ethnic Chinese to visit, work and live there, why other non-believers must worship Dalai?

Do other Chinese Christian grab you to their church for baptism in sea port city, if you don't, then you are not allow to live there?

If Dalai really wants peace, then how come for 50 yrs, political and religious unrest happened in Tibet for many times? Do peoples live in Tibet do not want to listen to Dalai? A 'peaceful monk', or He just use his religion to separate? Or if he is really for peace, then how come his believers don't listen to him? or no one really gives a crap about him?

If your purpose is not to separate China, and for other issues, like human rights and bad government, I go with you, let's march tomorrow, I go in front of you, but if you make a ethnic excuse, to make Han people look bad, then I have a problem.

How monks end up throwing stones?
If Chinese government use their soldiers to dress as monks, then would those dead monks be the soldiers?
Isn't it contradicting?

Chinese government persecuted Christians, June 4th students, Muslim splitists, Falun Gong... many, but only a few using ethnic issues to be a check piece of the West, That's China, modern history, even though I am nationalist, but I hate it, and I am one of the government's watch if I be too reunificationist. But I would never not to love China and every people who share the same love of unity and peace, but not you, even if you are my biological brother, still separation not allowed, never.


MartindeMars Author Profile Page:

There is no so called latest demand. The line from the Chinese government about the Dalai lama does not change any in last 30 years.

It is interesting to see that Promfret is neglecting the biggest obstacle between the Chinese and the Dalai lama: Dalai Lama's claim on Great Tibet and the request of racial cleanliness in Great Tibet. Do you think any Chinese people with sane mind will compromise on those demands?

If Dalai Lama wants to resume his violent old protocols, that will be another good news for the Chinese government.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

General Yue, are you really a general? Thank you for your time!

Maybe you could explain something to us. In the West, in court, people are assumed innocent until they are proved guilty. In China people are assumed guilty until proved innocent. There are crimes in China whose titles would seem absurd in the West because of this difference -- for example, "The crime of having lots of money from an unknown source" (巨额财产来源不明罪). It means that a person can't prove where the money in their bank account came from, so they therefore are assumed to be corrupt. The penalty is big too. Maybe the law was created for a good purpose but it does not matter. In China, if you don't like someone, it is enough to accuse them of this crime. If the person does not have detailed records to prove innocence, the person will go to jail. Such a law could never exist in the West, because it is unfair. (Mr. Pomfret, you should write about that!)

I don't think there is any evidence that the Dalai Lama organized the protests in March. But under Chinese law there doesn't have to be any, right? He's guilty simply because he has no way to prove that he DIDN'T organize the protests. And most Chinese, except maybe Hu Jia who knows better, will believe that he is guilty because they have been taught since they were small that you are guilty until you can prove that you are innocent.

I didn't see the Dalai Lama lead any riots. I did, however, see a picture of Chinese soldiers in formation carrying monk robes. It looked like they were going to put them on and then throw rocks at other soldiers for the Chinese news. Do you know anything about this? Maybe the photo was a fake. I know you will say it was fake. But I've seen other photos of bloody and dead monks with bullet holes in them, taken while the Chinese government promised they had not used violence against the monks. Those can't be faked.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

To freebornchina,

Dear brother, I am Han, you're Tibetan.
I don't see what difference btwn us,
We are not like US, Blacks were segregated 50 yrs ago, now good schools often struggle in race, and discrimination is everywhere.

But I don't believe that any Han people ever disrespect you, I have Tibetan friend too.

Our government also put down riots in Beijing, most were Han kids, but don't make your personal idea as culture issue here.

Plaincloth cops are every where in China, not only in west, east too, there are Han cops try to crack down progressive Han nationalists, I don't see China government really discriminate 'your people' , and if there are really people who use difference to create trouble, I would say you, only one who you consider your difference is you that you consider you are some different than other Chinese. But if you come to my house, I'd invite you for drink and share meal as brother, my countryman, but would you do the same? or listen to those Americans for their own scheme, there were more Han peoples were persecuted in 50 years history than any other 55 ethnic, stop using excuse, in our country anyone and any ethnic (Chinese Han or others) are allowed to go anywhere free, What's wrong your brothers live near you?

You don't like them?
Then you are making the difference, whether culture or race.

Let's learn from American, do you see, they use their TV commercial to put 4 faces all together in one shot? White, Black, Latino and Asian to tell the world that they are the country of melting pot, and if you run for president, race slogan shout out.

Does China allow that?

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

how many people died by religion?
how many people died by difference?

Christian religion, only God walked onto cross;
Muslim, I am not expert, you guys know.
But Dalai, he believe independence of Tibet, he worked his whole life for it, and you know the depth of his faith and direction.

Mr. Pomfret now a such religious expert, any shining certificate that you can show common people about your knowledge? Like Dalai's peace award? Priest's ID?

Are we people just fooling around ourself?
We all need a lable and name, huh?

Dalai could do well by writing his books, let's see his true faith would convince history, there is already a Christ, I would never compare anyone with God.

Others just jokes, keep on their robe and name, Pope, Dalai, Buddha...

Too many gods

I'd rather worship Madonna.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

It is very difficult to forgive someone that led many riots, caused many death, provoked two nations into conflict(China and India), invited other nations to against his own, to separate his nation...
and ask his government to accept him again?

Do US government invite Saddam and Bin Laden for their cause? or let's say if some how Bin Laden hidden for over 30 years, then could American people forgive him, and pick his religion belief as an option?

whocarestibet Author Profile Page:

There is no doubt that Dalai is, and will be the spiritual leader for Tibetan people, just like the Jesus for Christians. The difference is, however, Jesus only exists in spirit. Dalai's problem is that he behaves too much like a politician, instead of a spiritual leader. Even worse, he counts on the western powers to solve his problems in Tibet. There is no way for Chinese government to make any compromise of its sovereignty in this regard.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Freebornchina: all communication between USA and the Middle East countries are monitored in USA for terrorist connection. Any USA institutions that has any connection with any suspected terrorist Middle East institutions are persecuted. So China is no exception in tracking down suspected Tibetan terrorists. "US or any Western country should be blamed for Tibetans resenting how they are treated by their fellow Chinese" because they single them out only and overblow the problem in order to intigate social unrest in China. Your use of the word "peace" and "oppressive tactics" is determined to be false as evidenced by the fact that no countries support your claim during the March riot. There is no official statement that says no body is allowed to migrate into the Tibetan Autonomous Region. There are an increasing number of foreign nationals migrating into USA. USA is an immigrant country. I hope you understand.

Aprogressiveindependent Author Profile Page:

There is very little likelihood any Chinese national government, led by the Communist party or any entity, will allow large scale political autonomy for Tibet. This is especially probable given widespread Chinese nationalism and resentment against the century of humiliation the Chinese endured from western, as well as Japanese imperialists. For China to give up its two western provinces is about as unlikely as Israel agreeing to return to its original borders, as established by the United Nations a few years after World War II.

Chinese nationalism though pales in comparison to nationalism in this country, which neo-conservatives have tapped into in their quest for military domination of the world by the United States government.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

I know some people who are Tibetans living in Beijing. During the protests in Western China in March, they were so angry and felt so helpless. They were constantly followed around by plainclothes police, even though they had done nothing wrong, simply because they were Tibetan. They felt it was pure racism, this belief that they were somehow criminals simply because their skin was darker. And among themselves they cursed the police in Tibetan and toasted to a free Tibet.

By the way it is part of the historical record that the CIA supplied the Dalai Lama and Tibet with guns for an insurrection in the 1950s. And shame on them for supporting a rebellion. That was two generations ago, however. And it does not mean the US or any Western country should be blamed for Tibetans resenting how they are treated by their fellow Chinese.

The Dalai Lama of our generation is for peace. And wants to preserve Tibet's culture without Tibetans getting spied on. This man is no terrorist. But those other people I know are less religious. They get abused and a deep anger burns within them. The March protests will not be the last, and at least half the reason for that is not Western support but the oppressive tactics of the Chinese police, and the intolerance of so many Chinese themselves.

Final piece of information: I have thirdhand information from an American geography professor that in the last few years far more Han Chinese have been moving into Tibetan Autonomous Region than have been officially reported. Officially the government says the Tibetans are still the majority, but that is not what it looks like in Lhasa. And that is a big reason for the uprising in March.

saint150076 Author Profile Page:

"Here i still see Mr. Pomfret's typical western arrogance as he shows his sympathy and never changes his opinion on chinese government. Guys here never realize that china is a melting pot with much longer history than USA. Things is not always black and white. But USA simplifies many facts in the world by black-or-white mindset and it proves to be failed in many aspect in their country's policy. some naive americans even think that china has no religion. Guys, we are a surviving nation with consistent history. If you really want to critize china, then watch china in a much more closer way "

Absolutely right!

richardwong Author Profile Page:

Here i still see Mr. Pomfret's typical western arrogance as he shows his sympathy and never changes his opinion on chinese government. Guys here never realize that china is a melting pot with much longer history than USA. Things is not always black and white. But USA simplifies many facts in the world by black-or-white mindset and it proves to be failed in many aspect in their country's policy. some naive americans even think that china has no religion. Guys, we are a surviving nation with consistent history. If you really want to critize china, then watch china in a much more closer way BUT not just study Chairman mao's mind and policy.

Here is an article that may change somebody's mind.

http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/30/a-sichuan-family-and-tibets-future/

saint150076 Author Profile Page:

Rangzen,
yes,you are Tibetan in exile judging by your name.

"The only response we Tibetans have is to resist non-violently & protest whenever we can & make the occupation of Tibet as difficult & expensive as possible for the CCP. One day the CCP will fall from power in China & on that day, Tibet & Xinjiang will have a chance to regain freedom."
Um,this isn't only your purpose:making Tibet a forever trouble for Chinese central government.but also it is the west especially US's intention.Your determination to make the so-called occupation of Tibet difficult for Beijing,can only make Tibetans in exile suffer much,because what you folks can do is just protest,this won't make Beijing lose something,it can only make Beijing gain strong support from Chinese people and get tough with Dalai,and make Chinese people hate Dalai more.If you exercise violence,you won't get US or the Europe's public support,maybe US can give you Tibetan militants more weapons and money.US won't publicly support Tibetan independence in violent way.
I tell you what,no matter CCP is in power or not in future,Tibet and Xinjing will never leave China's territory,because the two place are China's top interests.China's government will do anything necessary to protect its terrotorial integrity.And this can definitely get all Chinese'support,except seperatists.Remember this,don't dream stupid and irrealistic things.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Rangzen: There are thousnands of tourists who have visited Tibet and the majority of their view of the situation in Tibet is opposite to yours. If they have the Tibetan perspectives as worse as your are, they will be posting their opinions all over the media all the time. Since they don't, so you are definitely wrong in your Tibetan perspective. I hope you understand.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Wabewalker: I repeat. If President Bush's policy is successful, the democratic party and Obama, whether he is white or black, don't have a chance. I hope you understand.

kgotthardt Author Profile Page:

--This is extremely blunt stuff from a leader who is always holding open the door to compromise and almost preternaturally optimistic.--

I don't think the "giving up" statement means he will shut the door if China changes its mind. And I DO believe when the Dalai Lama dies, another one will take his place as has been done throughout history. The monks won't let Tibet die.

Rangzen Author Profile Page:

I agree that it's sad HH the Dalai Lama has been forced to give up on talks w/ China over Tibet. However, the Dalai Lama is merely acknowledging the reality that the CCP is not interested in genuine autonomy for Tibet or human rights for the Tibetan people. I disagree that this spells the end of Tibetan culture. As long as Tibetan people are alive, Tibetan culture will survive, either in exile or underground inside Tibet. The CCP has shown they are willing to imprison or kill as many Tibetans as necessary to maintain control over its Tibet colony. The only response we Tibetans have is to resist non-violently & protest whenever we can & make the occupation of Tibet as difficult & expensive as possible for the CCP. One day the CCP will fall from power in China & on that day, Tibet & Xinjiang will have a chance to regain freedom.

wabewalker Author Profile Page:

Thmak, that is simply not true. I did not vote for Obama in February just to watch an African American fail. I voted for him because I thought he was a better candidate from the Democratic party than Hillary Clinton, who has proven to be corrupt. Now I'm voting for McCain because I like his tax plan better, but that does not diminish the fact that millions of Americans are voting for Obama because they think he is the best candidate, period. And indeed if Obama is elected, I will not mind.

wabewalker Author Profile Page:

Peter, I'm referring to Senator Barack Obama. All the Americans voting for him are hardly "concentrating on keeping the non-white people down" as Mr. Crush puts it. That's why I don't think he really knows any Americans, I think he's in a room somewhere in China and just insults them in chat rooms. Which gets to the main point, I don't think many Han Chinese have Tibetan friends either. It's hard to have a Tibetan friend and also believe the news stories, after all, since the news stories are telling you to hate the Dalai Lama.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Wabewalker: Americans elect Obama, a minority, so as to dump to him the worst situation in American History: a discredited foreign war and foreign policy ,and an internal economic meltdown and USA induced world wide economic recession. If Bush's policy is successful, Obama will not be elected and as popular as he is this days. I hope you unerstand.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Tibetan culture: Is it really dying ?
Restaurants selling Tibetan foods is very popular in big cities in China. Tibetan buddhism has a large followings both inside and outside China. Tibetan traditions are not dying at all. I think western culture posts a bigger threat to the so-called dying Tibetan culture. By limiting immigration of Han-Chinese into so-called Tibetan area (25% of landmark of China), and putting that large portion of area under the control of a group created and financed by foreign government is a no-go for a reasonable government of any persuasion.

Hypocrite1 Author Profile Page:

The Dow future is down again. My hedge is going to make me wealthier again. I can’t wait to see the Dow drop to zero. Have a good day, every one.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

The tragedy of DL is that his movement of independence aims at the hearts and minds of westerners, not the most important constitutents of his cause, 1.3 billions Chinese. However, what can you expect from the movement created and financed by westeners.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

By the way, when are you all going to pick a Tibetan to be President? I rest my case.
===============================
To wabewalker and rush_n_crush :

When are we to see a American Indian be elected as President?

No point of arguing like this.

wabewalker Author Profile Page:

Grow up, Crush. Being patriotic doesn't mean you should hate people who are not like yourself. You really are giving China a bad name with your ranting. Don't you realize it? I asked you, when is the last time you spoke to someone, in the real world (meaning not here on these boards), who is not Han Chinese?

By the way, when are you all going to pick a Tibetan to be President? I rest my case.

timscanlon Author Profile Page:

Any culture other than Han culture is in danger in China. Any religious culture is in rather desperate straits in China no matter what it is. That problem is not unique to Buddhists.

The Chinese government does not deal fairly or honestly with Tibet. This is true internationally as well as internally. They lie to their own people about it more than to anyone else. They could care less what people in the West think about it, as long as it doesn't threaten the gravy train of exports.

wabewalker Author Profile Page:

Good grief, Mr. Crush, when is the last time you actually spoke to a white man, face to face? Have you ever?

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

Because France 2 TV channel just broadcast an interesting documentary about Dalai,so people re-evaluate if they truly understand what is the Tibet issue and who is the true Dalai.

Dr.Pomfret is so exaggerated about Dailai's influence in China.Even in TAR,not most people take Dalai as granted,not to speak of non-tibetan.The anecdote of Wutai Shan is totally a joke,showing the depth of Dr.Pomfret understanding Chinese culture and history.

Aprogressiveindependent Author Profile Page:

John Pomfret, as he occasionally does, exaggerates what he perceives to be the fading of Tibetan culture. He assumes Chinese policies regarding Tibetan culture will never change, a highly dubious assumption. Regardless of the actions of the Chinese authorities, traditional Tibetan culture will continue to be vibrant.

Despite aggression, cheating people out of most of their land and massive cultural repression, many native Americans in this country, including the Hawaiian islands, were able to maintain much of their native American culture. Mr. Pomfret is unduly pessimistic.

wondering5 Author Profile Page:

When the Chinese invaded Tibet, destroyed thousands of Buddhist temples in the country, burned as many sacred texts that they could find, and eventually forced the Dalai Lama and most other religious leaders out of their own country, Tibetan Buddhist philosophy was introduced to a whole new audience in the rest of the world. There is now a growing population of followers of Tibetan Buddhism in the west (including myself.) Perhaps by attempting to crush religion in their country, the Chinese created the causes for the increase of what they hate.

bartedson Author Profile Page:

It's a sad state of affairs when the Dalai Lama has to give up on the world for help, and on his vision for his homeland of Tibet.

The Chinese government will pay a heavy karmic price for their evil ways eventually.

esthermiriam Author Profile Page:

It does seem to be the sad truth that the Dalai Lama has recognized and spoken: if anything, Chinese fear of any respectful concessions has grown, and for now one can only look forward to their continued despoiling of Tibet and their
heavy-handed efforts to hijack selection of the next Dalai Lama.

In the very long view, however, this people and
its culture need not disappear. Too many lessons
have already been learned, among them how to
preserve identity in exile... Our thoughts and prayers go with them.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

This one is real:

U.S. has plundered world wealth with dollar: China paper

BEIJING (Reuters) - The United States has plundered global wealth by exploiting the dollar's dominance, and the world urgently needs other currencies to take its place, a leading Chinese state newspaper said on Friday.

The front-page commentary in the overseas edition of the People's Daily said that Asian and European countries should banish the U.S. dollar from their direct trade relations for a start, relying only on their own currencies.

A meeting between Asian and European leaders, starting on Friday in Beijing, presented the perfect opportunity to begin building a new international financial order, the newspaper said.

The People's Daily is the official newspaper of China's ruling Communist Party. The Chinese-language overseas edition is a small circulation offshoot of the main paper.

Its pronouncements do not necessarily directly voice leadership views. But the commentary, as well as recent comments, amount to a growing chorus of Chinese disdain for Washington's economic policies and global financial dominance in the wake of the credit crisis.

"The grim reality has led people, amidst the panic, to realize that the United States has used the U.S. dollar's hegemony to plunder the world's wealth," said the commentator, Shi Jianxun, a professor at Shanghai's Tongji University.

Shi, who has before been strident in his criticism of the U.S., said other countries had lost vast amounts of wealth because of the financial crisis, while Washington's sole concern had been protecting its own interests.

"The U.S. dollar is losing people's confidence. The world, acting democratically and lawfully through a global financial organization, urgently needs to change the international monetary system based on U.S. global economic leadership and U.S. dollar dominance," he wrote.

Shi suggested that all trade between Europe and Asia should be settled in euros, pounds, yen and yuan, though he did not explain how the Chinese currency could play such a role since it is not convertible on the capital account.

A two-day Asia-Europe Meeting (ASEM) of 27 EU member states and 16 Asian countries was set to open on Friday. Though few analysts expect much in the way of concrete agreements, Shi said it could prove momentous.

"How can Europe and Asia grasp each other's hands and together confront the once-in-a-century global financial crisis sparked by the U.S.; how can they construct a new equitable and safe international financial order?" he said.

"The world is waiting for this Asian-European meeting to achieve big results in financial cooperation."

(Reporting by Simon Rabinovitch; Editing by Ken Wills)

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

There is no any equation between Dalai Lama and prosperity in Tibet.Dr. has a misleading accusation.

Without Dalai Lama in Tibet for half a century,the Tibetan is studied in school and Tibetan arts and artifacts are thriving. His role is near nothing in the economic and cultural development in Tibet.He probably spent much more time in politics instead of in religion instruction.

If the Mandarin is to blame and Han Chinese's doing business in Tibet is to blame,then the time Tibet has the right to get rid of all Han Chinese and related things in Tibet is when Chinese shut off any American business and ban English and English culture in China.This is the real equation make sense to people in this world but U.S and EU sycophants.

blasmaic Author Profile Page:

I believe some wanted China to host the 2008 Games so that they could stage an uprising in Tibet. They did. They got their blood.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

Viewing the pursuits of the Dalai Lama, "Tibet independence" has always been obviously written in his so-called "Exile-Government Constitution," with no revisions ever made to date. Some people in the world kept on saying that the Dalai Lama has abandoned "Tibet independence. " In fact, however, they can know the whole truth by just spending one minute reading the "Constitution."

Hypocrite1 Author Profile Page:

Dear John:
Gosh, ThMAk gave you quite a load of goodies. I am quite sure that you knew well of the reality in China and how ordinary Chinese view Tibetan related issues. The truth is China holds the upper hand and there is no need to give in anything to Dalai Lama. Plus, if the Chinese government gave in, it would not survive one day facing the rebellion led by nationalists. This is no idiot’s daydream. If you can not foresee this, then you should never tout yourself as a china hand.

dahuanzhou Author Profile Page:

I wish the talk for Dalai Lama returning to China will go on and not "talk about talk".The difficulty is that ,under the slogan of"preserving the culture,preserving the charector of Tibet" the Chinese government does not know what exactly Dalai Lama wants to do.What is more,this slogan will be effective to the neighbouring provinces such like Yunnan, Shichan,Gansu and Qinghai.Do you think it to be realistic demand?

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Pomfret: The truth is that" at no point was there ever really a sense that Dalai Lama were sincere in his attempts to solve the Tibetan problem.". He colludes with Western anti-China thug and goon countries in falsely condeming China and instigating murdurous incidence in China with increasely intensity whenever there is an opportunity like the Olympic games. I hope you understand. The Tibetan problem is to be resolved between involved parties, not between Pomfret and China. I hope you understand. The Tibetan culture is preserved extremely well and expanded in Tibet and in China, better than the preservation of the culture of American natives in USA. I hope you understand. If Dalai Lama "retains enormous influence among his people", he can surely call them to "rise up against Chinese rule" in exile without ever set foot in China. I hope you understand. It is not China that waits Dalai Lama to die. It is Dalai Lama him self who wants to die in exile because he dares not want to go back to Tibet to face the acussation of his people for his past anti-human theocracy rule. I hope you understand.

cLOUDFAn Author Profile Page:

I don't have any inside info, and I am not the biggest fan of Chinese Gov. But it seems that Mr. Pomfret, whose options I usually agree with, believes every word that comes out Da-liar-Lama's mouth. How do you know what's been said or what are his demands in those negotiations?

Just my 2 cents

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