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The Next Tibetan Uprising?

So when will the next major anti-Chinese uprising happen in Tibet?

Wang Lixiong says expect the next big one -- at the latest -- when the Dalai Lama dies. He made his prediction in a Chinese blog post on his wife's web site responding to the news that the Dalai Lama was losing hope in a dialogue with China. I've included a translation below.

Wang is a writer and probably the deepest thinking Chinese scholar on Tibetan issues. For years, he's contended that the only longterm solution for China would involve direct negotiations with the Dalai Lama. Ultimately, he's said China should allow the Dalai Lama to return to Tibet and that the Communist Party should seriously consider the Dalai Lama's "middle way" solution for Tibet that would allow the territory some autonomy but also still place it firmly within the Chinese state. For his troubles, and for those of his wife, the Tibetan writer Oser, who is also an advocate for Tibetan issues, Wang is currently under a form of house arrest in Beijing.

Here's the piece:

The Fire Next Time in Tibet
by Wang Lixiong

In the May 2008 issue of the New York Review of Books, Columbia
University contemporary Tibet expert Robert Barnett wrote--in
response to the widespread belief that no one foresaw March's Lhasa
riot and subsequent region-wide unrest--that Chinese intellectual
Wang Lixiong had predicted the uprising. According to Barnett: "In
1998 Wang wrote that Tibet is materially better-off than at anytime
in its history. But this has not bought the Communist Party Tibetans'
good faith. On the contrary more and more people are turning toward
the Dalai Lama.... The present stability is superficial. There will
come a day when people will participate in insurrections larger than
those of 1987 and 1989."

I came to understand that Chinese police shared my conviction at that
time. They were in fact more accurate than Robert, because I had
written that essay in 2000--not 1998. It was entitled: "The Dalai
Lama is the Key to Resolving the Tibet Problem." But the Chinese
police did not discuss this with me at the time. Their responsibility
is to suppress unrest, not analyze its cause. But I again predict:
The next time there is unrest in Tibet, it will be larger than that
of the spring of 2008.

I can even predict the timing of the next uprising in Tibet: If the
Dalai Lama dies without returning to Tibet or without there being
significant progress in the situation in Tibet, his death will be
like a clear signal to the people of Tibet to rise up en masse. And
China's massive repression apparatus has no means of stopping this.
It requires no formal organization or planning on the part of
Tibetans, this sense of solidarity cannot be expunged through
punitive measures.

All those who understand Tibet know that the Dalai Lama's fate is
like a wound in every Tibetan's heart. As Tibetan Buddhism's
spiritual leader, this bodhisattva has made tremendous sacrifices. He
has relinquished the demand for independence, and just desires a high
degree of autonomy to preserve Tibet's unique culture and religion.
But to these modest conditions the Chinese government has responded
with unceasing humiliation. They have not permitted the Dalai Lama to
return to his birthplace, not permitted him to meet his people who
have waited a whole lifetime to see him. In this way they will be
parted forever by death. This kind of pain is incomparable. While the
Dalai Lama is still alive, no matter how many obstacles are
encountered, Tibetans harbor hope. But once the Dalai Lama dies, this
hope will be replaced by despair, anger will outweigh fear, grief
will give rise to frenzy. For these reasons the next uprising will be
extremely fierce. The scope will be broader, the affected area
greater, and the number of participants larger than those of spring
2008. And it will not be possible to pacify it in a short period of
time.

Masses rising up at the death of a leader is a known phenomenon in
China. The protests and subsequent crackdown in Tiananmen Square on
April 5, 1976 followed the death of Premier Zhou Enlai. The April
1989 death of Hu Yaobang led to the bloody events in Tiananmen Square
on June 4. If the Chinese government wants to avoid another
insurrection in Tibet, the only solution is to make progress, and
ideally have a breakthrough, on the Tibet problem before the Dalai
Lama dies.

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Comments (195)

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Thanks for your interesting feedback, SING1.

"It looks like you are a full-time political activists specialized in Tibet."

Well, I am not. I am a professional software engineer. But I have to admit that the issue is "close to my heart" and this is what keeps me engaged. In that sense it is a "passion" if you wish.

And I am afraid I cannot as whole-heartedly "fight" for the Chinese dissidents' cause because, while I understand that it is closely linked to the Tibetan cause, I do not have the same emotional impetus. There are many wrongs in the world but everyone is "touched" more by one than the other...

I have been interested in the Tibet issue for almost 20 years, and believe me, while it is one issue only, I don't feel that I have exhausted the depth of it yet...

And a final word on Western media:
Except for mathematics, I guess every human expression is "biased". There is absolutely no point in blaming the Western media for being biased.
Rather, I would say, Western media like to expose problems *anywhere* (you yourself have pointed out that "biased" article on India to me). In contrast Chinese media like to "cover up" problems and present "favourable" news (I am looking into the Peoples' Daily, too).
Chinese readers are simply not used to that style of reporting. And it is easy for the CCP to rally Chinese behind her if she can point a finger to someone being "anti-Chinese"...

The bottom-line from my point of view with this issue or any other is:
If you are really interested, read as much independent information as you can get, go to the place, check it out yourself and come to your own conclusion.
At the end of the day you are responsible for *your own* conclusion and not the CCP's or some writer's in the Washington Post...

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
This is the link to FLQ incident in 1970. Tanks, soldiers were sent to Quebec.
http://archives.cbc.ca/politics/civil_unrest/topics/101/

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
"As you probably know, most Western governments DO NOT want an independent Tibet but a Tibet that enjoys meaningful autonomy.
And the Western public wants a "Free Tibet" in terms of Tibetans not being shot for wanting to seek an education or a monastic life in exile, for Tibetans to be free to voice their opinion and dissent as in any "free" country."
If it is true, you should not concern about only Tibet, it should be for all Chinese citizens because none of them have that right.
What you are doing is giving Tibetans inside and outside of China a false impression that Westerners support independent Tibet. A New York Times columnist went to Tibet after the riot wrote a very interesting column. A taxi driver, whose parents are high-ranking cadre in the government, said to the American that when DL comes back, they will kick out everybody and Tibetans will be the richest person in the world. What you are doing is simply a disservice to your own cause. It will turn Tibet upside down simply because Tibetans think they have the support of the world to be an independent country and they will be in heaven afterward.
I read the link you posted. It reminds me of the German TV news media broadcasting a section of Nepali police beating up Tibetan protestors with a headline "Chinese Police Brutality".
As far as I am concerned, any topic from Western Media about Tibet and China is bias at best, scandalizing at worse.
It looks like you are a full-time political activists specialized in Tibet.
Let me tell you one thing. Tibetan will not be given the right that other Chinese Citizens do not have. Fair is fair. Is it correct? So. Your time will be better spent campaigning for the right of every Chinese Citizens not just for Tibetans. Otherwise, it will be interpreted by Tibetans inside China and Chinese government as supporting Tibet independence. It does nobody any favor.
"Tibetans being shot for wanting to seek an education or a monastic life in exile."
I still do not buy this accusation. If Chinese Government is really as brutal as you accuse them to be, they should open the door and encourage everybody to leave. Afterward, there would not be any Tibetans living in Tibet. Problem solved. Why shoot them just for leaving Tibet. It just does not make sense.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

SING1,
you write:
"I am not pro-CPP and far from it. I just don't understand why people want an independent Tibet and think it will solve all the problems.
Freedom should come with responsibility. Otherwise, it would be chaos and nobody would benefit from it."

As you probably know, most Western governments DO NOT want an independent Tibet but a Tibet that enjoys meaningful autonomy.
And the Western public wants a "Free Tibet" in terms of Tibetans not being shot for wanting to seek an education or a monastic life in exile, for Tibetans to be free to voice their opinion and dissent as in any "free" country.

"Free Tibet" does not necessarily mean an independent Tibet...

The call for Tibetan independence is mainly coming from the Tibetan youth who are thoroughly frustrated with the lack of progress on talks about meaningful autonomy.

I know that China can be more flexible. When I was in Hongkong in spring I wore my "I stand for Tibet" shirt without being hassled. The Falun Gong had their stand with gruesome pictures of victims of persecution right at the ferry wharf, and the Hongkong media are reporting quite openly on any issue.
So it is possible...

Someone wrote that there are all these entrenched anti-Dalai-Lama bureaucrats in the CCP that block progress because they would lose power and face. And I do think that is the case. Someone like Wen Jiabao would have fixed that issue long ago if he had been allowed to...

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

SING1,

while I can say that I can talk about China, Tibet and India from my own first-hand experience, I have to admit that I only know Canada and in particular the Quebec issue from "hear-say".
Means: I fell into the same trap of blabbering about things that I only assume to be some way or the other...
I do sincerely appreciate your comments therefore. Thanks.

Let me say, though, that I don't take your summary of the Quebec issue now as a given (rather as a suggestion). I will simply refrain from referring to it in the future because of my own lack of first-hand knowledge.

You were doubting two of my statements on the situation in Tibet:

1)
"I do not believe that border guards would shot monks and children on purpose just because they want to go to India."

A current link to this issue (including video footage where you can see how a young Chinese border guard shoots a young Tibetan nun escaping to India) would be for example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/7715401.stm

2)
"I watched the video on you-tube on the riot many times. It only showed police chasing and arresting suspects on rooftop. They are not snipers."

I had written "current situation in Lhasa", not the riots in March.
A link including a photo of a sniper on a roof would be for example:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24619265-25837,00.html

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
"But, there are places like Quebec where there is a considerable sentiment for independence without military deployment, snipers, torture, reeducation and so on."
I am a Canadian. I can tell you for sure that there was violence and military deployment, snipers and torture when it first started. A government official was killed in the late 60's by the separatist. PM Trudeau who was a Quebecois himself, declared martial law and sent troops including snipers into Quebec. Don't kid yourself. He was ready to shot and kill. He imprisoned a lot of people without trial. The last referendum if succeeded, will bring on a civil war for sure because native Indian living in Quebec want to secede from Quebec to join Canada. Their land is about 2/3 of Quebec territory. The only thing that stops the referendum is economic integration. After all this year, Quebec discovers that economically they are far better off within Canada than outside Canada. So there you go. Don’t live in a dream world. With Hindsight, all Canadians including Quebecois do appreciate what he did for Canada.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
"There is a significant and ongoing controversy about Tibet due to which thousands of refugees, mostly children and monks and nuns, escape across the Himalayas to India every year to this day.
On YouTube, if you care, you can find footage on how they get shot by Chinese border security like dogs."
I do not believe that border guards would shot monks and children on purpose just because they want to go to India.
It serves no purpose for the CCP. One thing I know for sure sadly is that a lot of Tibetans including government officials in Tibet send their children to attend free school offered by DL, (some of the children was as young as 4 years old) believing that their whole family will be blessed for it. It is a tragedy that parents would deliberately risk the life of their whole children for this.
I watched the video on you-tube on the riot many times. It only showed police chasing and arresting suspects on rooftop. They are not snipers. I don't think there is a need for that because the riot did not involved guns. If you watched those videos carefully, you would not see any gun fired from police either.
My point of all my arguments was that independent Tibet would not solve the violence in Tibet. DL is not what you think he is. Democracy in Tibet would not be the cure for all. Just look at Iraq. With 100k+ US troops and 5 yrs in the making, the damn country is still a mess. The only country benefits from that mess is Iran.
I am not pro-CPP and far from it. I just don't understand why people want an independent Tibet and think it will solve all the problems.
Freedom should come with responsibility. Otherwise, it would be chaos and nobody would benefit from it.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Dear SING1,

thanks for your posts.
I am aware of the Shugden controversy; I have even witnessed their protests myself and looked at their material.
Before that, and still ongoing, there is another controversy about the Karmapa (of which there are two). And there have been unresolved murders in Dharamsala...

Did I claim that Tibet was a Shangri-La or that Tibetans are faultless human beings?
The truth is, you already get a controversy when there is an accident on the road (I have been through this as well)...

But the truth is also:
There is a significant and ongoing controversy about Tibet due to which thousands of refugees, mostly children and monks and nuns, escape across the Himalayas to India every year to this day.
On YouTube, if you care, you can find footage on how they get shot by Chinese border security like dogs.

And you don't solve any controversy by massive military deployment and snipers on roofs which is the current situation in Lhasa (you may want to read up on this in the 'Australian' or other media). The opposite is the case: you inflame the situation further.
This applies to Lhasa as well as Srinagar. You need not point out to me all the other places where there are controversies.

But, there are places like Quebec where there is a considerable sentiment for independence without military deployment, snipers, torture, reeducation and so on.
Obviously, in a civilized society issues can be addressed more sanely. And doesn't China pride itself of its thousands years of civilization? Why not show another face of China to the world? China deserves better than what the CCP is doing to its image.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Can you believe that?
There are price on the heads of five monks in India posted by DL and his followers.
What a joke .

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
The tradgy in Indian
read this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqON2lxArek&feature=related

sing1 Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind:
Here are other links to show how DL would treat other Tibetans if they do not agree with him.
This is 5 parts serious done by an European TV station. I shall give the link for the first part.
If you are interested, you will be able to find the rest for youselves.
Killing committed by monks against other monks as well as common people is a daily event in old Tibet. It will continue if DL want to consolidate his power in Tibet after he returns. It will make genocide in Dafur a child play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5sOm-uQH9Y

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
From what I heard so far, DL is welcomed back to China as a monk and not a king. It is DL who refuses to go back without pre-condition. There is no guarantee that violence will stop after DL returns. On the contrary, I think that violence will escalate to a point of genocide among Tibetans and ethic cleansing against non-Tibetans as DL struggles to gain control of other religious sect in Tibet.
Don't be naive. Tibet has never been a paradise and never will be. Go to local police stations in India where Tibetans live. You will find out that there are numerous unsolved murder cases committed by Tibetans against Tibetans.
If you think DL is a person for peace, read this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rL6KUrpu0s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC-F6VUyGZM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEdZ1GwYKhM&feature=related
This is not CPP propaganda.
This is real.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
It does not matter when the next uprising/riot is and how often the violence occurs, Tibetan exiles will never get what they want, an independent country. It is the same reason why Hawaiian separatists did not succeed. Couple of thousands of violent TYC members cannot have any impact on policy in Beijing. It is the same reason why Muslim extremists cannot succeed. You keep talking like all 6 millions Tibetans want to leave China. It is just an imagination in your head. A New York Times columnist interviewed couple of Tibetans in Tibet three years ago. His conclusion was most of the monks wanted DL to go back to form a new country and most common people appreciated the schools and roads built by central government. They want to stay with China. You may ask why doesn't Beijing give Tibetans the right to vote in order to decide their fate?
Tibetans alone cannot decide the fate of Tibet simply because Tibet is part of China.
It is the same reason why native Hawaiians was never given a chance to decide the fate of Hawaii on their own.
You cannot apply one rule to China and another rule to US

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: Sorry I misinterpret your advocacy. I understand.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Dear THMAK,

you wrote:
"If you are so supportive of Dalai Lama, you must be very much impressed by his teaching of Buddha's tolerance, compassion and forbearance."

For your understanding:
1) I am not "so supportive of the Dalai Lama". Where did I write so?

The Tibet issue is not about the person of the Dalai Lama but about the rights of 6 million Tibetans in Tibet.
As far as I am concerned, the Dalai Lama is a transnational figure who can live anywhere in the world.

2) I am not "very much impressed by his teaching of Buddha's tolerance, compassion and forbearance".
In fact, I have never been very impressed with Tibetan Buddhist teachings nor Chinese Buddhist teachings (except 9th century Chan teachings and Daoism).

Would you mind returning to the subject which is
"The next Tibetan uprising"?
Thanks.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

To ckk2008,

Right on the ball!

There are 30 billion Christians, but how many are true followers?

There are 20 billion Muslims, but how many seek peace?

There are Buddha worshipers, but how many look at the world issue as cloud?

There many reporters, but how many refuse to use their pen for their personal belief?

There husband and wife, but how many married for love, and how many realize to divorce?

Oh, it makes wonder...

ckk2008 Author Profile Page:

People will follow whenever there is famous teacher or guru in town, later to tell everybody that such as such is my teacher and hang the person name on his/her lip.No problem, many celebrities also enjoy such treatment and worship somewhat. Supporters of DL may not necessary or wish to understand or follow his teachings. Dalai Lama is the media and message. Some of his supporters will go crazy as predicted by scholar Wang when the DL dies. If this happen, the DL's teachings has no effect on this people at all.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: I humbly request your opinion and you gave none. Is that the way you responded? Please don't falsely say that I "accuse" you to be a Buddhist or anything. I just use Buddha's teaching to judge people. I never use four letter or malign words as you do so often. So I consider myself to be more humble than you. So please have tolerance, compassion and forbearance. I hope you can understand. If you are so supportive of Dalai Lama, you must be very much impressed by his teaching of Buddha's tolerance, compassion and forbearance. Buddha also considers that one's present situation is the fruit of one's past action and is never due to others. In order to change to a better future, one must perform good endeavor, such as never bears false witness against other people. I humbly hope you understand.


ckk2008 Author Profile Page:

Territory disputes, as you may know, are one of the single biggest causes of war, apart from religion.In Tibet case,territory and religion are the contentious issues, the Tibetans are agitated to fight for territory and their ways of religion affairs. One more difficulies,Tibetan Buddhism is about theocracy, it differs with the secular form of government, the separation of church and government. Theocratic rules imply being governed by a deity (or by officials thought to be divinely guided).The belief in government by divine guidance. The Tibetan govt-in exile still do.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

God bless Washingtonpost!

But too bad, General Yue Fei, me, that I was born to argue, and thank God these Washington people meet me, ha ha ha. And God prepared me for them, especially practising English on Washington post, because I can be more shamelessly than they are.

They never thought their trick could crash in their home water.

They are reporters!? I swear to God they are politicians. Jeez, I've got brush my mouth after saying that word, ha ha ha.

Even Jesus says : "Call girls can go to heaven, but Politician can't, not even by intaking sex pills."
ha ha ha.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Dear THMAK,

I did respond to your post - although maybe not to your liking. Would you mind to re-read my previous post?

In fact, insisting on deflection is one of the main propaganda tools or rather *the* propaganda tool being employed the most in relation to the Tibet issue.
Thanks for illustrating that once more.

And dear THMAK, neither am I a Buddha nor are you humble. Why not just cut the cr#p?
I am sure you understand.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: You didn't respond to my post on Nov 11, 2008 2:14PM, indicating that you have none of Buddha's tolerance and compassion. You malignly and falsely accuse people of CCP association indicates you have none of Buddha's love and caring. I humbly hope you can understand.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

THMAK and anyone interested:

You wrote:
"To Jaihind: I humbly request your Buddha's tolerant and compassionate opinion on the plight of Native Americans for the fact that they had been chased out of their homeland for centuries under the barrels of the guns and been slaughtered almost to extinction and the plight of the Diego Garcia islanders on the fact that they were completely and forcably uprooted, transported out of their homeland and denied of their right to return. Your compassionate human rights view on these issues is very enlightening to readers of this forum."

THMAK, your hypocrisy is really amazing...
You pretend to care for the fates of Diego Garcia islanders... Ha ha ha.
You are the same guy whose sympathy for the tens of millions of deaths during Mao's rule in China was limited to
"As we all know haste makes waste."
Sic(k).

For anyone interested:
The Washington Post naturally is a high profile target of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) propaganda department which employs thousands of people to filter the internet, to track dissenters and to disseminate its propaganda.

That being said, even the CCP propaganda staff has its right to voice its (limited) opinion. I don't mind them posting here. Rather, it is very enlightening...
One can see how the whole propaganda tool box is put to work (just have a read ;-).

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

Luke 15:11-32
The Prodigal Son - Story Summary:
The story of the Prodigal Son, also known as the Parable of the Lost Son, follows the parables of the Lost Sheep and the Lost Coin. Jesus is responding to the Pharisees' complaint: "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."

Jesus tells the story of a man who has two sons. The younger son asks his father to give him his portion of the family estate as an early inheritance. Once received, the son promptly sets off on a long journey to a distant land and begins to waste his fortune on wild living. When the money runs out, a severe famine hits the country and the son finds himself in dire circumstances. He takes a job feeding pigs. He is so destitute that he even longs to eat the food assigned to the pigs.

The young man finally comes to his senses, remembering his father. In humility, he recognizes his foolishness, decides to return to his father and ask for forgiveness and mercy.

The father who had been watching and waiting, receives his son back with open arms of compassion. He is overjoyed by the return of his lost son! Immediately the father turns to his servants and asks them to prepare a giant feast in celebration.

China must negotiate with Dalai?

Did China run away?

If he wants to return, then don't take negotiating road. Start begging, really beg.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: I humbly request your Buddha's tolerant and compassionate opinion on the plight of Native Americans for the fact that they had been chased out of their homeland for centuries under the barrels of the guns and been slaughtered almost to extinction and the plight of the Diego Garcia islanders on the fact that they were completely and forcably uprooted, transported out of their homeland and denied of their right to return. Your compassionate human rights view on these issues is very enlightening to readers of this forum. I hope you understand.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: I just humbly re-wrote your post on November 11, 2008 1:33 AM:
"For anyone interested in the psychology of the Tibet issue: Please have a read through this thread.
The comments on this blog are a telling example of how the DaLai Lama and his anti-China goons and thugs employs people to
- whitewash its history in Tibet (and China, too)
- blackmail free media and human rights activists
- bully people with dissenting opinion.

It provides an excellent background to understand the hypocracy of the Tibetans' struggle for self-determination". I hope you understand this time since it is out of your own mouth.

river2 Author Profile Page:

I haven't read all the comments yet. Just a quick commnet. This is probably the best time that China should seriously start negotiating with Dalai Lama. At this juncture, China is probably at the most advantegous, perceived or real, postion to get the best deal out of this. I'm talking about China's current perceived or real strength in this international political and economic environment. Plus it's said that Dalai Lama is not in a good physical condition now. Most likely, he would like to see that some sort of settlement can be reached in his life time.

It's true that midway proposal is pretty pricy for the central governement. But that's a starting point to bargain with. YOu have to seperate the negotiables from the non-nogotiables. Let's say PLA army must be able to station in Tibet. This is non-nogotiable. But for some other aspects of midway proposal, the parties can really sit down and have a serious talk.

The truth is that Tibetan issue is not going to go away after Dalai Lama dies.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

ANAKIN1992,

you got me totally wrong:
"if you pissed off by those disagreed with you and want to mug their voices, tell me what your free media or press is all about?"

I do not want to mug their voices (like the Chinese do with the Tibetans in Tibet). I want to make the opposite point! To read and study those postings to gain a better psychological understanding of how Chinese minds work and thus gain a better understanding of the Tibet issue.
And that is also what "my" free media or press is all about...

anakin1992 Author Profile Page:

john,

"If the Chinese government wants to avoid another
insurrection in Tibet, the only solution is to make progress, and
ideally have a breakthrough, on the Tibet problem before the Dalai
Lama dies."

i totally disagree. chinese gov shall never ever talk to anyone who committed violence, just like US does not talk to any terrorist organizations. to allow another insurrection is much much cheaper than that of allowing DL to walk on tibet again.

anakin1992 Author Profile Page:

JAIHIND,

give me break. if you are really for human rights, shut up and do the real thing. don't brag verbally how much more humane you are than those who disagreed with you. it is pointless. humanists from the west have whined for almost centuries for black africa, please for christ's sake look at how it is right now. if you pissed off by those disagreed with you and want to mug their voices, tell me what your free media or press is all about?

anakin1992 Author Profile Page:

correction...

"saying this is not to admit the wrong doing during those years."

shall be

"saying this isn't not to admit the wrong doing during those years".

anakin1992 Author Profile Page:

CARRYANNE,

i knew you would get to this point. by the way, it is so important that whether i am in china or out side of china? is it that if i am in china then i am brainwashed or if i am out of china then i am from those god darn corrupted rich or official? or then i am not good because i am not poor, etc? why does my residency matter in our argument?

"You are against violence? Then you are against the CCP."

what logic is this? i don't see chinese government is using violence against its people. during cultural revolution time, the brutal treatments to the party internal fights did exist. but i don't think, and someone has to convinced me, that government issued the edict to use violence against its own people. saying this is not to admit the wrong doing during those years. but again, in those years, both tibetan and han chinese received the same treatment. and i have yet seen any proof that tibetan chinese were singled out as those african american.

"If the majority support the CCP.....
1. who is to say? State terror and bribery are extremely powerful tools in the party's hands."

what do you mean state terror? in chinese history, i have yet seen any systematically annihilation of any of its internal minority to the extent which can match what happened to american indians who were basically wiped out without even the possibility to regenerate.

are you still living in those long-gone years of old tibetan society? bribery? does a political donation or contribution count as bribery? did you bride before? so far i have yet seen any countries on this planet who can proudly declare that they are bribery-free. china is no different and the efforts have been done tremendously. why can't you give them a chance?

"2. if you have a room with 50 people being told that it is glorious to kill and rob landlords and 49 landlords, it is that the landlords should support the robbers and murderers as they are slaughtered? If, as it is in China, the only people with a voice are the rich who have profited from exploitation of the poor (majority), then what? The poor, the good, and the oppressed have no voice, no right to think and speak, so how can you say that the majority supports the party?"

tell me how rich can make the voice differently in china from that in US? do you mean in order to be good you have to be poor? or the poor are always oppressed? what i meant on "support the gov" was that if majority of chinese are suffering as those tibetan slaves under DL's rule, you bet they would topple gov. so far, unfortunately, they don't and thus my conclusion is that majority of chinese do support their gov. from technical perspectives, chinese gov is just like any other govs to try to do its best to benefit the most. of course those who hate gov. would always hate regardless what. if chinese gov. changes to a democratic election, still there would be ppl hating the gov.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

For anyone interested in the psychology of the Tibet issue:

Please have a read through this thread.
The comments on this blog are a telling example of how the CCP employs people to
- whitewash its history in Tibet (and China, too)
- blackmail free media and human rights activists
- bully people with dissenting opinion.

It provides an excellent background to understand the Tibetans' struggle for self-determination.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

GENERAL,

"To Jaihind,

Wow! DL gets 2 mil a year? from US?"

Just for the record:
I never said so. It was your comrade SING1, you brought up that idea.
And if you had paid more attention:
He even suggested "US$200 miln a year"...

You guys are real jokers. In the future, if I should be interested in CCP propaganda, I shall rather read the Peoples' Daily or Xinhua.
At least it's from the horse's mouth then, and not from its backside...

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

This passage is from the victory Speech of Pre. Obama:
Its the answer spoken by young and old, rich and poor, Democrat and Republican, black, white, Latino, Asian, Native American, gay, straight, disabled and not disabled - Americans who sent a message to the world that we have never been a collection of Red States and Blue States: we are, and always will be, the United States of America.

All the Ethnics of Chinese,

We should vote for Obama also, for he understands what Unity is.

I don't understand why American praise unity but support a very different belief for other countries?

Look at the their people:
...young and old, rich and poor, Democrat and Republican, black, white, Latino, Asian, Native American, gay, straight, disabled and not disabled...
Isn't it the whole world people in US?
But why their very government always trying to divide others?

Should all Chinese be stocked like cattle?
That sorted and attended by group of cows, pigs, sheep, chicken, duck and dogs and cats? Like animal been separated by color and face, by region, and accent and by language, and by our difference as others' definition?

But Americans are all the same and diverse, and all be called the people of God who live and communicate under one God?

What about Tibetan boy marries a Han, as in China, many are such couples, then should they be separated as Tibetan live in Tibet, and Han wife stays in Sichuan? as duck cannot mate with chicken?

Then why China should obtain her unity as America, then why Chinese should be sorted by American according to what they like?

so because America is a melting pot, so it is not China? Our ancestors carved our character on our bronze pots, when the world never heard the word of America 3000 years ago, but suddenly our land and people should live by their interpretation of social value to break all Chinese apart?

What a genius of US government!

From now on, if they want Chinese to fight against and separated among each other, while, they have 50 states, maybe they should lead their example.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

carryanne:
All I know is that they do not deserve to be under such a despotic regime as no one does... They deserve basic human rights, let's start with that.

To carryanne,
But Basic Human Rights don't include throwing rocks as China constitution states, and if they keep throwing rocks, our Himalayas gonna run out of rock,
seriously, there are still mountaineers trying to climb.

Think about this, If Dalai did not ran away, he did not stir up separation...
Now everyone can go to Tibet freely, and as China welcomes you, the our Tibet also welcomes everyone, how beautiful would that be?

But now people keep the training and supporting of US, and make a place unrest, so no one can go there for tour.

If you really love Tibet, and people who live there, make it peaceful, so in short time we all can go there, and no one's visa would be refused.

Now who would block you to Beijing? No one, because it's a peaceful place for everyone.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihend:
If you are a real human right activist, I can give you a cause far better than that of Tibetans.
Here is the link:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/JD17Aa01.html
There are Islanders living in the middle of Indian ocean. Due to no fault of their own, they were shipped to a desert island thousands of miles away. With no help and compensation, they became the poorest refugees in the world. It happened because the US government wanted their island to build a military base. After 20 years of petition, they still have no compensation from anyone. Nobody, not even Jaihind would take up their cause. I just wonder why.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind,

Wow! DL gets 2 mil a year? from US?
Would US accept Han Chinese against Han Chinese?
I am gonna fill out application tomorrow, for 2 Million dollars? Even for half mil.
I even go head on against my wife! and dividing my own house:)
No wander some people are so passionate, you are hired mercenaries.
One more question.

You guys are charged by hour or by project?:)
Before your shouting with board and throwing rocks, Do you punch your time card? What about over time?

Are you guys also in Union? What else are the benefits? Health insurance? and vacation to China by underground crossing to Lhasas? If you get caught by Chinese border guard, do you get extra credit? it is transferable? maybe a publishing contract?

Let me know, please.
I have a couple Tibetan friends who need more money, I can introduce them to join you guys, they are born natural and they don't know about protest, but you can train them, right?:)

ha ha ha ha

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

I suggest China government next time capture those young Americans who cause all the upside down of Lhasas in China, that lock them in jail and make them recite all the 30000 Tang poems, so when they come out, at least they don't speak Mr. John Pomfret's Taiwan Mandarin, any way US university is only party and social place for them. At least China could do something for them.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

SING1,
""How about investigating *current* policies *in Tibet* by the *current* CCP government?"
The current CPP government and their policies become a issue because of the Korean war and cold war.
The affluence of Tibetans become an issue for local Indians because Tibetans are given the money for political reasons and they do not have to work for it while locals suffer."

Well, that wasn't much of an effort. And the blame game just continues...
Thanks anyway.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
Sorry for being so annoying.
One more questions for you.
The total number of blonde hair Tibetan activists outnumbered the total population of Tibetans.
Do you think it is possible without the legacy of cold war ?

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
One last word for you:
Please, do not say India is a model society for the Chinese and Tibetans alike.
"India is an open multi-ethnic society where people are allowed to live according to their own traditions and aspirations."
Statement like that is laughable.
You still have not told me where DL got his hand on US$200 miln a year ?

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
"How about investigating *current* policies *in Tibet* by the *current* CCP government?"
The current CPP government and their policies become a issue because of the Korean war and cold war.
The affluence of Tibetans become an issue for local Indians because Tibetans are given the money for political reasons and they do not have to work for it while locals suffer.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

JAIHIND
How do you support yourself while travelling in India so intensely.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Dear Sing,

I have never taught the Tibetans anything. If anything, I have learned from some of them.
Neither have I organized any riots in Tibet.
I also doubt that the report on CNN said that these idealistic young Americans organized riots in Tibet.
Did it?

You are saying that "the origin is the Korean war and that cold war after that". And then you blame the "affluence of the Tibetan exile community".
Excuse me but you are just evading the issue by passing the blame card ever further on...

How about investigating *current* policies *in Tibet* by the *current* CCP government?

All the best

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
By the way, where do DL and his so-called exiled government get US $200 miln a year?
Isn't that interesting ?
This is all power politics.
Everything else is BS.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
"So, obviously we have to look at where the problem originates from, don't we?"
The origin is the Korean war and the cold war after that.
Think about this. There are 200k Tibetans living in Indian looked after by the exiled government with 200 milns annual budget.
It means Tibetans annual income is three times of that of Indians living in that region.
Most of them have free school and free medical care.
Tibetans living in India are full-time political activists whom everybody in India and Nepal hates.
Given a small chance, they will be driven off the land in no time.
By the way, you seem to be everywhere in India for every occasion. Are you really one of those young American from NYC.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

SING1,
the reasons you state for "Tibetans are allowed in India the way it is" are probably valid to some extent. But they are not exclusively "*the* reasons" as you have put them.
It is a complex issue, no doubt...

When thousands of Tibetans held a huge demonstration in New Delhi last year, I sought out the police chief who was overseeing the sizeable deployment of his staff to ensure that everything went orderly.

I had an interesting conversation with him during which he himself said "that India is a poor country which should be looking after its own people first". He wasn't happy with so many exile Tibetans causing costs and disturbance to his country.

What to do?
Fact is that people of Tibetan descent or faith all over the Indian Himalayas don't have to seek asylum anywhere. So, obviously we have to look at where the problem originates from, don't we?

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
I do not know who you are and why you spent so much time around Tibet and India. However you remind me of young Americans I saw on CNN who travelled all the way from NYC to India to teach Tibetans the art of civil disobedience and how to cry and scream in front of camera. They also organized riot in Tibet. That is why I called you a self-rightous person.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

SING1,
let me understand that.

You write:
"Let me understand what you say.
Chinese has no say about Tibetans and you do because you spent time in Tibet and may be have some Tibetan friends.
What a self-rightous person."

Maybe something got lost in translation...

You claim that I am a "self-rightous person" because I say that "people should be allowed to live according to their own traditions and aspirations."
With regard to Tibet, that means that Tibetans should decide about their own lives, and not the Chinese.
Why should a CCP party secretary from mainland China who does not even speak Tibetan (and who probably doesn't care what the Tibetans think), have the say in Tibet?

I am questioning that. That is all.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

JAIHIND:
I do not know how much you know about politcs.
Tibetans are allowed in India the way it is for the following reasons:
1. They are not Indian citizens and do not pose any danger to established political party. Therefore, nobody is interested in targeting them.
2. As I said before, there is national interest of India in Tibet : Water and mineral resources.
Therefore, it is wise to keep Tibetans in India as a bargaining chip.
3. India is under great pressure from Britain and US to let the Tibetans stay. That is legacy of cold war.
If you ever to talk to local Indians leaving in the surrounding area, you will have a completely different picture.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

SING1,
you wrote:
"If China ever becomes an open and free country similiar to India and follows their way of treating their ethic minority, Tibetans will be wiped out of the earth in no time."

Can you be more specific?

My own experience is that the Tibetans are able to maintain their culture in exile exactly *because* India is an open and free country.

You may want to visit their exile settlements, the Tibetan Childrens' Village and their rebuilt monastic universities in India and compare them to Drepung (near Lhasa) or Tashilunpo (in Shigatse) in China's Tibet. I have done it.

To see with one's own eyes is better than hearing something a thousand times.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
If you are aware of all that violence, how can you make such statement about India.
"People are allowed to live according to their own traditions and aspirations."
I am not interested in anti-chinese or western meida bashing.
It is amazing to watch persons blind-sided by his own prejudice, lecturing other persons of what is right and what is wrong.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

SING1,
thanks for pointing out the NYT article to me.
It did not contain much that I was not aware of but there were some insights like the quote by Amartya Sen.

It reminded me of two things:

1) India as a country and a democracy is just 60 years old! Before colonial rule by the British it never existed as an entity.
In contrast, Han China as a political entity has centuries of history.

2) The bashing of Western media as being anti-Chinese by Chinese bloggers is self-serving.
Western media point out issues *anywhere*. And that's good!

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
If China ever becomes an open and free country similiar to India and follows their way of treating their ethic minority, Tibetans will be wiped out of the earth in no time. Please, don't use India as an example for the world to see.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Let me understand what you say.
Chinese has no say about Tibetans and you do because you spent time in Tibet and may be have some Tibetan friends.
What a self-rightous person.
Tibet will be independent when Hawiians got their country back. Do you see that happening soon.
I am a Canadian and never been to Tibet and China.
How about you.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
You are the only one in a long time to make that statement:
"People are allowed to live according to their own traditions and aspirations."

People can be burned to death for looking at other person in the wrong way or going to look for a low-paying job in other province within the country.
How can India be a inspiration for China and Tibet.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

SING1,
thanks for your clear statement:

"I do not care what Tibetans think."

That is exactly it, and that is why Chinese should have no say about Tibetans' lives!

As far as India is concerned, that is a different issue. But then again, I suppose you wouldn't have any first-hand experience either on that subject, so it would be tiring to pursue that further...

sing1 Author Profile Page:

I do not care what Tibetans think.
What I am saying is Indian is not what you says it is.
"India is an open multi-ethnic society where people are allowed to live according to their own traditions and aspirations."

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Sing1,
thanks for your reply.

I wrote:
"For all its shortcomings, India is an open multi-ethnic society where people are allowed to live according to their own traditions and aspirations."

Whatever you wrote in reply, does not change any of that.

And there is no need to lecture me on India. Even I conceded that it has "all its shortcomings" - different shortcomings from China, if you wish.
I follow very closely what is happening in India...

And I don't need "to pretend to be something that I am not". I am not an Indian, I only happen to have spent years there as well as in China.
So I know what I am writing about.
Do you?
How much time have you spent in Tibetan areas inside Tibet and inside India? Or with Tibetans at all?
How many Tibetans have told you that they are Chinese?
It is a one-way street if you only care to investigate it further.
But then, you don't...

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jaihind:
Fareed Zakaria, a famous Indian American writer for Newsweek, called India a defunctional democracy. Political, religious, and ethic violence is wide-spread and happens daily in India. Rule of law is a joke.
As an Indian, I wish you to understand your own country better before you open your mouth.
One very prominent politcian in India summed up Indian interest in Tibet; water and mineral resources. Please, don't pretend to be something else you are not.

sing1 Author Profile Page:

Jashind:
"For all its shortcomings, India is an open multi-ethnic society where people are allowed to live according to their own traditions and aspirations"
I do not know what you have been drinking making such a statement about Indian democracy.
Read this link from New york times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/29/world/asia/29india.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
India is the most intolerant society in the whole damn world other than Nazi Germany.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Actually, it's quite revealing to come back to this thread after a while and to find that everything is still going in circles...

As the meeting in Beijing has shown, and as the comments on this blog show, the Tibetan and the Chinese sides have so far never actually met "in mind".
It will not do that the Chinese declare the Tibetans Chinese. That is what is called
"reckoning without the host".
The CCP cannot forever post military in the streets of Lhasa and snipers on the roofs of monasteries to subdue the Tibetans (see recent report in the 'Australian', including photographs) - no modern civil society can.

The Han in China already enjoy considerable freedoms (for which even the Tibetans in Tibet envy them), and sooner or later even China will become a society with the rule of law. And then the Tibetans will secede because they have thoroughly had enough of Chinese rule...

Estonia seceded from Russia after 300 years, and so can Tibet. If the Tibetans have shown one quality, it is this: they have patience in the face of adversity.

So, everyone relax a little... ;-)

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

CKK2008,

you wrote:
"Talks between the DL's representatives and the chinese government had come out nothing concrete.
The Tibetan exiles will be discussing the next course of actions to take next week.
Independence from China of course.
May be also an independence State from territory crafted out of India, but the Indian Army will crush such a desire."

You may not know but the Indian government has even provided substantial land in South India for Tibetan refugees to settle. The Tibetans have rebuilt their famous monastic universities with thousands of monks in India after they have been bombed and obliterated by the Chinese in Tibet.

I have been to pretty much all corners of the Indian Himalayas, and believe me:
The Ladakhis, Kinnauris, Lahaulis, Sikkimese and people of Arunachal Pradesh as well as in Bhutan are more than happy to live on the Indian side of the Himalayas.
They know very well what is happening on the other side...

For all its shortcomings, India is an open multi-ethnic society where people are allowed to live according to their own traditions and aspirations.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

General,
you are a joker:

"To carryanne,

Why don't you get a visa and go to China, and be in Tibet for some time, then you will change your view."

I travelled to Tibet twice independently (which is not possible any longer - you try and get a visa for Tibet as a foreigner!). There are police checkpoints everywhere and if you don't have a permit to go anywhere besides Lhasa and Shigatse, you are in trouble...

carryanne Author Profile Page:

As I said before, I don't know exactly what the Dalai Lama wants or is asking for...

I don't think separation is feasible under the circumstances.

All I know is that they do not deserve to be under such a despotic regime as no one does... They deserve basic human rights, let's start with that.

ckk2008 Author Profile Page:

As humans when we are here, we selfishly consider “ours and others (culture,race,nationhood,)and what is the true meaning of life of religious thoughts.?” We pray to gods for salvation; we look forward to reincarnation, or heaven; to nirvana, a place where life is better and all your dreams come true. But we never care to ask :if we all miss the point? We humans basically are the same specie,the rest are just human construct. Death is the ultimate equaliser.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To carryanne: You have many posts on Nov 9. spurting out phrases used commonly by thugs and goons such as "screwed and exploited and treated like tools and animals", "gangsterlike way", " use terror threats and violence". I wonder if you are one of them. Anti-China is a a descriptive word for those actions that have bad and false intention for China. I repeat " There are thousands and thousands of Chinese students going abroad for study each year and tourists too and there are impressions of thousands and thousands of tourists to China. I'm sure you,in your beseiged brainwashed anti-China mentality, will never try to find out that those Chinese show no sign they have been suffering under your brainwashed phrases of "violent communist dictatorship". I hope you understand. That is why I keep saying..

ckk2008 Author Profile Page:

Talks between the DL's representatives and the chinese government had come out nothing concrete.
The Tibetan exiles will be discussing the next course of actions to take next week.
Independence from China of course.
May be also an independence State from territory crafted out of India, but the Indian Army will crush such a desire.
Alternatively, U.S.A, U.K, France, Germany can offer a piece of their territories to create a Tibetan nation outside China. Hail, the generosity of these countries. If not send in your mighty western armies to change the course of history? I beg you, don't even think about it,ever.


sing1 Author Profile Page:

Whether it is affirmative action or independence, carving out 25% of Chinese land-mass and redrawing the country's mad including five provinces is a no-go to start with. Giving Tibetans special privilage oblivious of the need of other ethic group in the region is another red flag. If DL ever succeeds, how the hell can uyghur separatist not go on an offensive? What does DL give in return for the concession Chinese Governement would make ?
What a joke ?

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

To carryanne,

Why don't you get a visa and go to China, and be in Tibet for some time, then you will change your view.

Unless you are already on the black list that you have a history that organizing riots.

China concerns about Tibetan and every her people, that is why that the government is doing a perfect job to provide people a peaceful environment, instead of letting Dalai's separatists rioting for ethnic segregation and trying to slave Tibetan under his violet Lamaism political and social slavery system, that every Tibetan born as Dalai's property, and kneel to him for generations, and his lamas patrol and police everyone so to make sure people never stand up against them (If you watch French Mainstream TV's Documentary). And Tibet is in a capitalism environment now, as other part of China, and we are driving our nation toward direction of American road, and if our country survived outsider's separation scheme and maintain the gradual development in a peaceful surrounding, then we get to spin closer to American Dream, a Democratic system, and individual who can perfectly understand and carry out his human rights without hurting other and the public.

Isn't it US want?
We care about Tibetan, we all Chinese.
What we cannot stand is that you always provoke concept of difference of Han and Tibetan, as your papa did in Mississippi of 'perfect test' of racial segregation, what part of US you from? the South? Do your family wear white sheet to preach your freedom of your speech at summer night?

Not allowed in China, and people like you that tell Tibetan are different from Han or Chinese, should never be allowed to speak in China, and it is right! God Bless China!

Just like you can only spread your racial speech in US as Why the white don't care about the black.

My Dear carryanne,

You are a racist, even now you still don't understand why Tibetan are Chinese, and you always think Tibetan are not Chinese, that is why you ask me (Chinese) to think compassionally about them (Tibetan).

Let me ask you
Are Whites in US American?
Are Blacks in US American?

If yes, then Tibetan are Chinese, so are Han, so are Korean in Machu part, so Manchu, so Mongolian, so Canton, so Uhgur, so Beijingese, so Hong Kongese, so Taiwanese, so...

Stop acting like you know something, that as Chinese to be compassionate to Tibetan, you don't even know we are all belong to the same family.

ckk2008 Author Profile Page:

an interested link below:

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/4880/

A Western author's comments on the West hypocrisy and double dealings.

carryanne Author Profile Page:

Anakin,

As for the sufferings of the Tibetan people, might you do your own research? Or are you in China?

You are against violence? Then you are against the CCP.

If the majority support the CCP.....
1. who is to say? State terror and bribery are extremely powerful tools in the party's hands.
2. if you have a room with 50 people being told that it is glorious to kill and rob landlords and 49 landlords, it is that the landlords should support the robbers and murderers as they are slaughtered? If, as it is in China, the only people with a voice are the rich who have profited from exploitation of the poor (majority), then what? The poor, the good, and the oppressed have no voice, no right to think and speak, so how can you say that the majority supports the party?

anakin1992 Author Profile Page:

CARRYANNE

so you said that even "to be free" shall have the order: the most suffered the first. ok, then please quote me those "brutal" acts by chinese gov to tibetan chinese? so far i don't see any differences chinese gov. treats tibetan chinese differently from to non-tibetan chinese. to the best of my understanding, there is no such thing as "if you are tibetan, then you can not do this or that". 53% people elected obama to president while 47% did not. but majority rule, right? similar thing in china too. if, as you said, majority people do recognize communist gov., then should not those minority support it too? and just because i am standing here to say something against violent, then i would become unworthy one? well, if without youtube, oversea tibetan might be very successful in march riot. do you even know that millions of oversea non-tibetan chinese saw those videos by foreign tourists in tibet and learned what happened. and comparing these videos with local news broadcasts, the angers went up even further. yes, from tv news, etc, you saw torch relay being ruined, but unfortunately those tv news never and ever reported the protests by oversea chinese. do you understand the implication of this? when tv news reported that native tibetans were killed while on youtube video showed that those native tibetans waved knife to chasing people on the street? when tv reporters described in length about how sufferings tibetans bear, but on youtube those tibetans are brutally killing innocent people. even a fool can conclude that the facts do not match what you or those reporters or DL people are telling me. so john asked if DL surrendered. yes, he did even before the whole thing started. before i might support his cause, but now it would be harder for me to even accept his religious preaching.

carryanne Author Profile Page:

General,

I am glad for you that you have a sense of right and wrong in that you know that throwing rocks is pretty bad and stuff... But you should also try to understand the deeper history and perspective. The Tibetan people have resisted violence to a great extent isn't that right? If you consider the fundamental rights that they have been deprived of and the turmoil of having their land overtaken by communists (money worshipers) with totally different lifestyles, then can't you understand WHY they are so sad and desperate? I mean, yeah, yur right, it's bad to throw rocks, but what has been done to them is far far worse than that. So why is it your choice to scold them for throwing rocks and not to scold the party for systematic lying, murder, torture and state terror? Why blame the victim who has thrown rocks out of desperation? The victim is not China, nor the party, the victim is the Tibetan and other persecuted people all over China. You blame them for causing instability, but who is REALLY to blame? WHAT KIND OF GOVERNMENT DOES CHINA REALLY HAVE? Maybe you are one of those middle class folks who benefits from the exploitation of the other 75% of Chinese. Is that why you don't care about China and Chinese/Tibetan people? Is that why you seem to blindly defend the party while scolding the victims?

Those who preach the love for stability and harmony as they are currently in China should definitely be ashamed, for they are the ones benefiting from the evil status quo of absolute corruption and exploitation. They don't want to look into it cause they feel cozy, they want to blame the people who throw the rocks and do not want to know WHY they have thrown the rocks. They throw them because of YOU. They are frustrated that YOU don't care. Will you ever care? So they are wondering why they should stay so peaceful. Their peaceful stance has not led you to care at all, has it? The party just laughs at their peacefulness, thanks for it and takes full advantage.

Thmak,

The thugs and goons phrase was a description of the gangsterlike way that the CCP controls China. They use terror threats and violence to keep the people under. Your way of using it is not realistic. What's your hang up about anti-China? Is it a political thing? Or is it something of a myth? What is it?

carryanne Author Profile Page:

1992,

I agree with you in principle. I think that the Tibetan people have maybe not been as down trodden by brainwashing and that is why they still have a sense of what freedom is and what rights they are entitled to. It seems to me that a lot of Han people do not have that sense and that they accept a totally corrupt society. So that could make it hard for people, like me, to support them in gaining rights. I think you have to value rights, or who will struggle to let you gain them? There are a ton of Chinese who know they are being screwed and exploited and treated like tools and animals, those people are definitely worth the effort (as are they all of course) so according to the principle that all people deserve freedom of thought, yes, you might be right that the Tibetan cause, as a public entity, is selfish at least on that point...

ckk2008 Author Profile Page:

Human rights,freedom,justice,truth these are abstract concepts as compare to concrete concept like table and chair.
In the West, these concepts are well articulated by many intellectuals, and they understand these concepts are not universal and not the stuff popular western media trying to promote. There are a lot of hypocrisy and double standards by western governments, they use these concepts as tools to push for their self interests and national agendas at the expense of the well being and stability of the developing countries.
It took the west hundreds of years to arrive at their present level of consensus on these concepts and try to live socially in it. But in a twist of irony, the West are using these concepts to undermine many governmentS in South America, Asia and Middle East and Africa. White man superiority complex? Westerners, don't worry very soon everybody will catch with you and play the same dirty games against you.


thmak Author Profile Page:

To Carryanne: My response to your Nov 8 post: If my re-wrote replica of your post is not accuracy, so is yours. There are thousands and thousands of Chinese students going abroad for study each year and tourists too. I'm sure you,in your beseiged brainwashed anti-China mentality, will never try to find out that those Chinese show no sign they have been suffering under your brainwashed phrases of "violent communist dictatorship". I hope you understand. As you said, "I tend to look at it from a human rights and freedoms/justice as well as cultural perspective. In this regard, I support the Chinese in staying strong and rejecting anti-China culture and brainwashing because I don't want the Chinese to be enslaved by that anti-China thugs and goons countries' lies". I hope you understand.

anakin1992 Author Profile Page:

CARRYANNE,

"Most Chinese people are under the control of the regime in many facets of their societal normal daily lives, it's awful I would say. I think the Tibetans do not want to be absorbed into a communist dictatorship country where freedom of speech and belief are outlawed."

if you really really think so, please be mercy, save those poor chinese. if you were a messiah, why do you single out tibetan chinese for salvation by allowing miserable non-tibetan chinese to the hell, by continuing the sufferings under an awful regime as a communist dictatorship?

i smell some racial discrimination here. why can't you accept that tibetan chinese to be ruled in a communist regime while ignoring 1.3billion suffers under so called brutal regime? are tibetan chinese the superior beings?


generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

To carryanne,

There is an old saying: "Everyone can see, but only the wise can reach," It is one of my slogan.

So what is your next move after you definition?

There are three ways to solve it.
a. sending the B Series bomber, militarily beat down the regime, and occupy.
b. feeding some the Han and Tibetan to throw rocks and put whole nation in riots for decades.
c. keeping constant friendly dialog with a positive attitude, while to help leader to improve their moral in peace.

Only good tree can bear good fruit, and only good can produce good.

Secondly, China favors minority through her policy, past examples:
Minority's salaries are set higher than Han,
Minority are allowed to have 2 children, that Han can only have one.

freedom of speech and belief are outlawed when the content cause dangerous circumstance to others and public, to any individual(including himself/herself). such example of preaching separation of nation, segregation by ethnic, race, or any public gathering that would disturb the peace of society.

That government must put down, otherwise why we the majority pay tax?

Those thugs they even dare to throw rocks at the police, who else they will not go head on?

If you do that in my house, would not I hesitate to kick you out?

Do you dare to throw rock at LA cop? What they will do to you.

If people are in peace, who would bother them?
There are a lot of low rank officials writing letters to their boss about improving governing system by improvement of democracy and human rights....

Could not some people write a letter?
Why they have to learn American way that they must block the traffic to express themselves?

If you really care about Tibetan, then teach them to seek peace, not to start a fight, they are not gladiators, they are people, they need peace and education more than battles.

If you are smart mom, you will always teach your children to work for peace, rather than fight for justice as you define, so they may live long and be happy wherever they are, or travel.

Your concept of fighting for liberty and democracy was founded 250 years ago, those bones are now ash, and the world is 21st century world, people need to learn that they don't have to die or fight to live better, but bless each other especial make peace with your enemy so we will all be in peace.

Otherwise you sound just like another war criminal or terrorist.

Even Jesus did not fight for justice, but worked his whole life for peace.

You are better than him? You think you can support some fighters to make things right?

Only good deed produces good result. Maybe Dalai should point me as the next Lama.

Why some idiots always want to be recognized?

carryanne Author Profile Page:

Thmak,

Hi. The post of Nov. 3, when I wrote it, I felt it was correct, but what you have re-written, I don't agree to the accuracy. A violent communist dictatorship is not so much the victim in this story. These kind of regimes absorb cultures and peoples through force and other wrong ways. Most Chinese people are under the control of the regime in many facets of their societal normal daily lives, it's awful I would say. I think the Tibetans do not want to be absorbed into a communist dictatorship country where freedom of speech and belief are outlawed.

To me, this is the issue, I'm sure there are plenty of angles to look at it from, religious, economical, human rights, land claims, face saving, morality, brainwashing, policies etc.

I tend to look at it from a human rights and freedoms/justice as well as cultural perspective. In this regard, I support the Tibetans in staying strong and rejecting communist culture and brainwashing because I don't want the Tibetans to be enslaved by that party's lies as are the Han people by majority.

ckk2008 Author Profile Page:

The Tibetans are lucky to have a thoughtful and intelligence leader like the Dalai Lama.
But for the successful enterprise the Tibetans aspire more renovative leaders are required.

The Tibetans may take a lead from Ralph Waldo Emerson, he says
"The criticism and attack on institutions which we have witnessed, has made one thing plain, that society gains nothing whilst a man, not himself renovated, attempts to renovate things around him: he has become tediously good in some particular, but negligent or narrow in the rest; and hypocrisy and vanity are often the disgusting result."


ckk2008 Author Profile Page:

Rocks. In the Isrealites/Palestinians conflict tons of rocks being throw at the Isrealites army by the Palestinians over a period over of 60 years and still throwing.
In India, no need rock, Gandhi threw love and respect towards the British, and the British got the message and went home.
Tibetans throwing rocks, unbelievable!

ckk2008 Author Profile Page:

2000 or 300 years. Too long in today fast rapidly changing world. Tibet and the Chinese States are the flux following history.
Btw, i am not too sure the human universe on earth will last in terms of hundred of years.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

To my dear JAIHIND,

Brother, let me strengthen your faith.
Look at Israel, They returned and found their nation after 2000 years.

Estonia? You only have 300 years faith?

So hold on your belief!
I wish your faith last forever!

But just remember what Dalai said: "Be Peaceful."
And stop throwing rocks or bricks like 15 years old, I used to do that to my city' soccer team when they lose. But I now grew up.

I hope you grew up too:)

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Yesterday I chanced upon an open history book in the library. It showed the history of the Russian empire.

One thing struck me:
Estonia was absorbed into the Russian empire in 1710. It took almost 300 years for the Estonians to establish their nationhood in 1991! But they did.

Tibet will be free sooner or later - within or without China!

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

It will be interesting to see what Obama’s personal history means for the Tibetan struggle…

Here is an excerpt from the Times of India:
(Begin)
Through the power of his example and his own unshakable spirit, Gandhi inspired a people to resist oppression, sparking a revolution that freed a nation from colonial rule, the Democratic Presidential-elect had said.
“Gandhi’s significance is universal. Countless people around the world have been touched by his spirit and example. His victory in turn inspired a generation of young Americans to peacefully wipe out a system of overt oppression that had endured for a century.
“And more recently led to velvet revolutions in Eastern Europe and extinguished apartheid in South Africa,” the 47-year-old Senator from Illinois had said in his message on October 2, birth anniversary of Gandhi.
Obama had said that he always looked to Mahatma Gandhi as an inspiration, because he embodies the kind of transformational change that can be made when ordinary people come together to do extraordinary things.
“That is why his portrait hangs in my Senate office; to remind me that real results will not just come from Washington, they will come from the people,” Obama, who won the historic presidential poll, had said.
He had said that while formulating his strategy to free India from the clutches of the then British rulers, Gandhi had a choice.
“He (Gandhi) chose courage over fear.” Through the power of his example and his own unshakable spirit, he inspired a people to resist oppression, sparking a revolution that freed a nation from colonial rule.
(End)

The current generation of Tibetans in exile (and even in Tibet) which has been inspired by Gandhi’s ideas of non-violence and satyagraha in their struggle for self-determination may at last have found someone “in an influential position” who understands and shares their ideals…

ckk2008 Author Profile Page:

Are everybody really living? Cultures of the world seem to lose the strength and potency to soothe our troubled lives, we are directed to look more with awareness at our chaotic and sterile times. And also the place of culture itself in all this mess.
The signs of damaged life are so wide spread and taken to be part and parcel of human conditions. A hallmark of civilization, neurotic unhappiness. Civilization, the symbolic life must be exposed as what it is. Take for example the unique Tibetan culture.
The symbolic engine of the Tibetan culture is the potala palace, the Dalai Lama, the important ' reincarnated lamas', the four sect of Tibetans Buddhism namely Gelug, Sakya, Ninyma and Kagyud. These are the media and message of Tibetan Buddhism for the Tibetans. Part of the many cultural models of the world. Due to Tibet isolation, this dominance culture have imprinted the entire behavioral mode of its people, manipulation by the priest craft and politicians inventing serfs and slaves class into the social stratum.
The Tibetans are being trapped and limited by symbols of the Tibetans civilization, to the the extent to which thought and emotion are tied to symbolism. A fundamental sort of falsification, symbols at first mediated reality and then replaced it.
James Shreeve, at the end of his Neanderthal Enigma (l995), describe of an alternative to symbolic being:
...where the modern's gods might inhabit the land, the buffalo, or the blade of grass, the Neanderthal's spirit was the animal or the grass blade, the thing and its soul perceived as a single vital force, with no need to distinguish them with separate names. Similarly, the absence of artistic expression does not preclude the apprehension of what is artful about the world. Neanderthals did not paint their caves with the images of animals. But perhaps they had no need to distill life into representations, because its essences were already revealed to their senses. The sight of a running herd was enough to inspire a surging sense of beauty. They had no drums or bone flutes, but they could listen to the booming rhythms of the wind, the earth, and each other's heartbeats, and be transported."
Is this what basic Buddhism trying to emulate?
In every sense all cultures are unique, falsification of reality.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

To carryanne,

Nope. Dalai is 73 now, and getting old.
Tibet is thousands meters above the sea level, that is no good to have seniors like him to climb up there, mostly lack air.

And if he goes back and pass away naturally, then you Western media surely going to blame that the Chinese killed him, I know your people, in front of camera you will do anything.

First you say we invaded our own land 1950,
Then you say we kicked Dalai Lama away 1959,
and now you will say that we killed Dalai.

And none of the story is true, it is good he rest in peace in India than in China, at least no Chinese get to blame for his death.

Tibetan culture, I have Tibetan friends that they love Rockin Roll, Macdonald, Tibetan Rap, wear jeans, and watching pirate Hollywood movies...
as same as any Han, Korean, Mongolian...

Now in general, we love US culture, and US school too, but can we listen to Dalai and a few his aggressive separatists that Tibet is Lamaist country, so all people in there dress traditional cloth to obtain our own tradition?

Don't we have our own rights? Don't majority residents of Tibet have there own rights?

The world can only change to what majority want.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Carryanne: Here is me with you again if you don't mind. I re-wrote your Nov 3 post as follows:
"Yes, I see that it hurts you that China maybe doesn't see himself as part of the Exiled Tibetan people, but do you see that he is also hurt by the exiled Tibetan family? It is like a family, and you guys have to really care about each other and listen to each other, not just feel only for yourself. Do you want him to be in the Tibetan family? If you do, then you should give him the treatment of a family member and not like an enemy.
The Chinese have not been treated well by the exiled Tibetan government. Is that something you are willing to consider? If you refuse to believe that then you are not feeling for them like a family, you are being stubborn and being controlled by anti-China mentality.

Also, another point is that CULTURALLY, the Chinese are a distinct group, they are Chinese and they have held onto their culture to this time which makes them very distinct. If that is not respected, wont' they cling to that distinctness more and more, of course they will. If you love their difference and respect their rights to believe as they want and live according to their culture, then won't they be happy to be part of a larger, caring and loving family". I hope you understand.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Carryanne: Here is me with you again if you don't mind I re-wrote your Nov 3 post as follows; . "The issue is that he is trying to secure some well being for the Tibetan people. If he only is trying to get back in "and fight for the well being of his followers but not "ensure his own safety. "Wouldn't that be the best."

"I feel so bad when I see the anti-China Tibetan people cursing the Chinese goodwill and not even trying to feel for them. WHY are the Chinese feeling so unjustly cursed? Are they just trouble makers? Or are they really suffering injustice under the anti-Chinese exiled Tibetan government. That is the issue, and the bigger issue is that exiled Tibetans people need to be less brainwashed and think for themselves and not listen to the Western anti-China countries and organizations since it is known to abuse it's power to twist and lie about information. You want your 'one world one dream' to be just the way you think it should be, but you won't open your minds to reality. One world one dream, and a genuine harmonious society comes from truthfulness, caring and wisdom and not from saving face, fighting and self defense.". I hope you understand.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Rangzen: What you said in your Nov 3 post has been said thousands of time for the past 50+ years, has no effect whatsoever and degenerated into a convulsive propaganda piece.

ckk2008 Author Profile Page:

The definition of 'One world one dream, and a genuine harmonious society'is truthfulness, caring and wisdom and not from saving face, fighting and self defense. The Chinese government definition i am sure is different , i have not seen the publish version from the chinese side.
Maybe they can be advised this is so, similarly this advice can be given to every government of the world including the Tibetan govt-in exile.
Sink hole,to flush out the unwary, dumb hole to silence the dissidents, and black hole for the total destruction of everything when the sink and dumb hole debris strike back.

carryanne Author Profile Page:

General, look at the bigger picture.

I don't think the major issue is whether the D.L. goes back to Tibet, I just don't think that is the issue at all.

The issue is that he is trying to secure some well being for the Tibetan people. If he only is trying to get back in and ensure his own safety, then this is not something that we all need to be talking about. I do not care where this man lives. What I care about is that both sides can understand eachother. Wouldn't that be the best.

I feel so bad when I see the Chinese people cursing the Tibetans plight and not even trying to feel for them. WHY are the Tibetans feeling so unjustly invaded? Are they just trouble makers? Or are they really suffering injustice inder the CCP regime. That is the issue, and the bigger issue is that Chinese people need to be less brainwashed and think for themselves and not listen to the CCP since it is known to abuse it's power to twist and lie about information. You want your 'one world one dream' to be just the way you think it should be, but you won't open your minds to reality. One world one dream, and a genuine harmonious society comes from truthfulness, caring and wisdom and not from saving face, fighting and self defense.

I hope you have enjoyed my sermon for today.

foreverocky Author Profile Page:

@Rangzen

Now, it's funny that all DL has left are the propagandas you just past, China is the one who can provide all tibetan needs not only for now but also for future, their choice will be very clear: China, that is why DL is so desperate, and of course so are you

ckk2008 Author Profile Page:

Talks of violence if Obama does not win the presidential election in the U.S.A. Two parties rule(in U.S.A) or one party rule (in China) there is always the possibilities of ' blood' politics surfaces to settle real or imagine grievances, be it racial, economic, nationalism, religious, all good excuses to bring out the animal in people,white, black ,yellow, brown ,chinese Tibetans or chinese Hans.
In the Tibetans case it seems all the ingriedients are there, people are ready to shed blood for their cause. Transcendent, it is better off for most people to concern about the survival
of the human universe on planet earth. Never let your compassion be the source of evils.
Unbelieverable though, may be compassion is just a litte leak from evil. Narrow focused group can inflicted untold sufferings on humanity.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

To Rangzen,

Yeah right.

keep acting, keep yelling, and don't stop throwing stones.

There is no fence in btwn Tibet and India where your Holiness stays, but just don't come back and forth every 6 month, to mess up two countries' security.

There are a lot people want peace too.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

To me, Banchan (Pingyin) Lama story is an urban legend.

I don't believe any one would lock up 5 yrs old kid, that even Dalai never fully or put more time to explain his accusation, no any proof to support that the government locked up a kid who knew nothing about put on his cloth.

Rangzen Author Profile Page:

The Tibetan people will not stop until we have freedom for Tibet again. China invaded Tibet in 1950 & governs it as its colony. Hundreds of thousands of Tibetans have died under the Chinese occupation & thousands of monasteries were destroyed. Today Tibet is under de facto martial law & Tibetans are being forced to take "patriotic" tests to be loyal to a foreign country, China, & to denounce our spiritual leader, His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Thousands of Tibetans were detained in recent months & many of them were tortured. Repression can't stop nationalism or the desire for freedom. Oppression won't stop the Tibetan people from reclaiming our homeland from the invaders.

foreverocky Author Profile Page:

the tibet cultures are nothing when facing the tibetan craving to modernized living, so just focus on developing the territory and let the DL die outside of China, all of his theocracy will be defeated by tibetan in tibet.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

Well General Yue,

The Panchen Lama did not run away and we have never heard from him again since he was kidnapped. I think if the Panchen Lama is allowed to be the Panchen Lama, maybe the Dalai Lama will go home. Until then, he will stay in India and the Tibetans will understand.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

to Carryanne,

But he ran away from us, you understand that, when our country being the worst time, when our nation and our people, especially his believer needed him for spiritual support, he ran away, and caused conflict btwn India and China,

Would you easily forgive your family member as your father ran away when you were young need him, and only left you and mom struggling and in the end he blame others for his running away? he ran away as Tibetan as he called himself, and after all these years he wants to be Chinese again? and coming back with his terms?

Are we begging him to come back?

Are we?

carryanne Author Profile Page:

General,

Yes, I see that it hurts you that Dalai maybe doesn't see himself as part of the Chinese people, but do you see that he is also hurt by the Chinese family? It is like a family, and you guys have to really care about eachother and listen to eachother, not just feel only for yourself. Do you want him to be in the Chinese family? If you do, then you should give him the treatment of a family member and not like an enemy.
The Tibetans have not been treated well by the CCP. Is that something you are willing to consider? If you refuse to believe that then you are not feeling for them like a family, you are being stubborn and being controlled by party mentality.

Also, another point is that CULTURALLY, the Tibetans are a distinct group, they are Lamaist and they have held onto their culture to this time which makes them very distinct. If that is not respected, wont' they cling to that distinctness more and more, of course they will. If you love their difference and respect their rights to believe as they want and live according to their culture, then won't they be happy to be part of a larger, caring and loving family?

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

to JAIHIND,

That's one thing that proves Dalai never sees himself as a Chinese, and we patriots see him a traitor.

Because only a insider can betray you, your family and nation; if he ever sees himself a Chinese, why he still wants to be Chinese? Isn't it contradicting?

That means in his heart he never sees himself a Chinese.
As Mr. Wang Dan, who always consider him a Chinese, even though our government would not allow him to enter, which I find it a cruel punishment, but still many Chinese like him.

Dalai is different. That's the fundamental identity difference btwn himself and his countrymen.

carryanne Author Profile Page:

Hi thmak,

I was only addressing you in the first paragraph. I usually don't get into long detailed conversations on these boards because usually people don't pay attention to a point for very long.So I kindof was not bothering to speak with you too much in detail. But don't assume that just cause someone doesn't respond to you that they agree with you. If you want, we'll talk more, I don't have time right now.

Peace.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: I'm humble to say that I don't know what are the points of your Nov 2 post with regard to Pomfret's article.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Carryanne; Your Nov 2 post doesn't respond to most of my counterpoints. I assume you understand and agree with me. To respond to your Nov 2 post, It is wrong for you to say that I"m "presenting my interpretation of some principle as the Truth". If that is true, that will apply to your opinion too. I just voiced my opinion and hope people will understand. Accusing each other with or using words like "brainwash", "propaganda" will not resolve any issues, only to expose one's lack of resourcefulness in coming up with better rationale. Criticism of China based on false facts, in a prejudicial manner, or with malign intension is anti-China rhetoric. I hope you undersstand.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

GENERALYUEFEI,
your logic does not work...

If you declare someone your family member without his consent, and that person leaves your sphere, you cannot blame him for not calling you "brother", can you?

As for the Dalai Lama, you will be surprised to hear that I personally heard him say in front of a huge audience:
"I am looking forward to become a Chinese citizen."
Nevertheless, as you say, he is speaking of "my Chinese brothers and sisters", that is, his identity (not passport) remains Tibetan. In today's world you can be a citizen of most countries without having to give up your identity. In fact, millions of Chinese have done it in the US and Australia.

China has an ancient history that it can rightfully be proud of. The Dalai Lama knows that and has no objections to becoming a member of the Chinese family. That is, given he enjoys the same rights as all other family members.

These rights are called human rights.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

I am a Han, if Dalai does not work independence, then I will read his books and study his teaching.
But too bad, he did a lot of things that against his own country.

Dear carryanne,

If your president ran away and spent his whole life in a country who has border disagreement with your country, and your most country's trouble makers using his name to riot, do you still support him?

He does not even consider himself a Chinese, there are 56 ethnic in China, and all of them are consider themselves Chinese, but Dalai doesn't, he calls us 'the Chinese'.

Do you even vote your state governor or city major who does not consider him/herself an American?

What part of US you live? Let me know if you want to vote a Chinese as your city major or state governor so you can vote me, and I can tell you I will manage your city better than your American idiotic greedy politician who only bailed out the rich but left the poor and 10% of pupil on street for home closure.

carryanne Author Profile Page:

Thmak, you gotta admit, you are presenting your interpretation of some principle as the Truth... Thats not very humble. I am not saying Dalai Lama is a god, but if he was a god and he got some awards, so what? Maybe he would be just being polite to accept them, anyway, I sure dont know what the precepts er whatever would say about that...

What exactly is the Dalai Lama asking for? Does anyone here even know? If we don't know what he's asking for (it's not independence) then how can we say whether or not it's reasonable.

As for Chinese people being fed up with anti China rhetoric, there is still the huge issue of propaganda brainwashing in China. People ARE ignorant, and I dont blame them. The party has set that up as a safety for itself. Every body else in the world knows the Bush is killing in Iraq, and people do not like it at all. But who else besides the CCP is using it as an excuse to spit on Chinese peoples rights?

How convenient for the party that the Chinese people are under the impression that criticism of the CCP is "anti-China rhetoric". Meanwhile the party know the criticisms are true and legitimate. The Chinese people are made fools of by the party's self serving propaganda. And no, I dont think Chinese people are so stupid, its just a phenomena and it can be fixed, with dialogue and info, openness...

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

CKK2008, I was touched by your comment. Thank you.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

THMAK,

"He has forsaken Buddha's purity and compassion."

That is what you wrote. That does not imply yourself knowing better than the Dalai Lama what Buddhism is?

Furthermore you write, you are "very humble not to try to lecture anybody on Buddhism".
That much for humbleness. At least I didn't pretend to be humble!

I think these guys who torture those Tibetans monks also do it smilingly, saying "I hope you understand" (meaning: if you don't, I can still tighten the screw a little further...).
This does not mean I accuse you of any such thing; it's just something that came to my mind...

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: Apparently you don't understand my previous post and that is why I always hope people will understand my post. I have counterpoints to your post. Apparently you don't understand my counterpoints and, therefore, you don't reply. Or you agree my points or you cannot think of a better counterpoints. I think I'm more refined by Buddha than you not to accuse you of anything. I confess to tell you that I had been brain-washed by Dalai Lama to know something of what is meant by Budda's purity and compassion and very humble not to try to lecture anybody on Buddhism. I hope you understand.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

THMAK, you wrote:
"Dalai Lama is revered as the supreme diety by some Tibetans. So if he recieved any honor bestowed upon him by other organization, that means he is not the supreme one. He is less supreme than the organization that has the right to bestow him the honor. It is similar to the process of knighthood in England. Dalai has lowered himself to accept those earthly honors. He has forsaken Buddha's purity and compassion. Without Buddha's quality, no Tibetans will follow him. I hope you understand"

So, we've got another atheist Communist who is lecturing on Buddhism...
While the CCP government has already passed a law on the "Recognition of Living Buddhas in Tibet", they still lack one on "The Truths about Buddhism". It can't be long...

And then our lecturer concludes with "I hope you understand."
I don't know the Chinese translation for that phrase but it is surely the closing line in every one of those patriotic re-education texts that the Tibetans have to endure.

Believe me:
I am glad I am not a Tibetan in Tibet (or a Chinese dissident in a labour camp) being told by force "I hope you understand" until I drop dead or become insane...

But I have compassion for them. Whether that is recognized by the CCP or not.

And JIAMING,
what is this whinging about American media?
You may have noticed that British, French, German, Italian, Polish, Baltic, Swedish, Japanese, Taiwanese, Hongkong, Indian, South American, Arabian (Al Jazeera) and media in all corners of the free world have pubished critical reports on China.
You just like to play the blame game to deflect attention from the original issue:
why Tibetans will rise up again as long as they are confronted with the same stubborness by their rulers.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: Since software piracy has nothing to do with the current topic, I do not want to discuss any further. Voting does not guarantee the ability to dismiss a public official or to elect an official one wants. It is just a way. There is other way too. Even though Dalai Lama gives away the money, the money was specifically given to him. So he still can refuse in the first place to accept the money if he really doesn't care about money.
Dalai Lama is revered as the supreme diety by some Tibetans. So if he recieved any honor bestowed upon him by other organization, that means he is not the supreme one. He is less supreme than the organization that has the right to bestow him the honor. It is similar to the process of knighthood in England. Dalai has lowered himself to accept those earthly honors. He has forsaken Buddha's purity and compassion. Without Buddha's quality, no Tibetans will follow him. I hope you understand

jiaming Author Profile Page:

It can't be more obvious that the support for Tibetan Independence and Dalai Lama by the US is extremely offensive to the Chinese. The problem for the United States today is that China is increasingly in a position to ignore the US and even take relaliatory actions. Just a few days ago, China launched a satellite for Venezuela over repeated warnings from Washington. China is growing more active in America's backyard, Latin America.

Washington imposed a ban on military technology sales and transfer to China for two decades, including satelite. Yet, China seems to have developed its own technology just fine. Again, the arrogant view by the US that China can't advance without American help is total nonsense. The cold hard fact is China is progressing rapidly and is now even quietly arming some Latin American countries that used to be under the America's thumb.

Just because China is not clamouring for attention, publically attacking the US for its abuses of human rights in and outside the country, doesn't mean that it is not capable of or willing to retaliate in a low key way. The media elites like Pomfret may feel good about their moral superiority, but they are effectively pushing China to ally with Russia and take very concrete actions against American interests.

The world has changed. The United States is no longer the decider for the world. Americans like Mr. Pomfret will have to live with that fact whether they like it or not. It is easy to make an enemy, but very hard to win a friend. Many older Chinese still remember that it was the US that defeated Japan in the second World War. But the good will is fading fast as newer generations of Chinese only see anti-China rhetoric and actions by America on the newspaper headlines.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

THMAK,
you wrote:
"You mentioned software piracy, I simply responeded by saying that one owns what one pay for."

Exactly right. You paid for a pirated copy, so you have to get back to the pirate with any claims not to Microsoft. With loot you don't usually acquire any right to any claims.

You wrote:
"I simply responded by saying that simply angry doesn't empower legally anybody to revolt."

Exactly right. Angry doesn't empower legally to revolt. It does empower, though, as we see in your given example, to go public about it, to vote out those responsible and to seek other legal ways to find a just solution.
All of the above listed options are not available to Tibetans in Tibet.

You wrote:
"If "Dalai Lama does not care about money and politics", he would have refused the financial support and political honors he received from all those anti-China thugs and goons countries and organizations..."

Well, he does not care about money. He is generally giving away whatever money he is awarded. Unfortunately, though, he *does* have to care about politics as long as the Tibet issue is not being settled. It is one of the duties imposed on him when he was installed as the XIV Dalai Lama, the political leader of Tibet, as a youth - in the advent of the most troubling time that Tibet has ever seen...

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

JIAMING,
another joke ;-)

You wrote:
"It's like a broken record repeating the same bad song over and over again for half a century."

You wrote that on October 31 and again on November 2. The complete posting repeated...

A broken record indeed. :)

JackUphill Author Profile Page:

@jiaming

What you said reminds me of a joke.

There are two people trying to escape from an insane asylum at night. They manage to get onto the roof of the building. The first guy jump across and tells the second guy to do the same, but he refuses. The first guy gets an idea.

"I have my flashlight with me. If I shine it across you can walk across the beam like a bridge!"

The second guy shakes his head in disbelief.

"Do you think I'm crazy!?...When I'm half-way across the beam you'll turn off the flashlight and I'll fall to my death!"

See, it isn't the Western media that's insane for doing the same thing, it's every one. The governments, the intel agencies, the People. So, let's just it back and have a nice laugh, because it's just that absurd.

jiaming Author Profile Page:

Still the same thing. Talk, talk and more talk.

This is why I'm so tired of the Tibet subject. It's like a broken record repeating the same bad song over and over again for half a century. China needs not defend its rule on Tibet any more than the US needs to defend its soverignty on the whole western half of the country. Contrary to the belief of most common Chinese people, I do not think that Western journalists like Pomfret is using this issue to pull China apart. They know they have no chance after decades of trying.

One of the definitions of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Applying this definition to the way Western media have been chewing on the Free-Tibet bone for decades is quite fitting. The thing is, insanity comes in many forms. In this case, the Western media elites just want to feel superior, by any means possible. They are often preaching to the choir, which is the Western readers of course. They don't like criticism and will tell you to go away if you disagree. The whole point is to feel good about themselves. It is a pathological reassurance, a form of psychological narcotic if you will, that they need in order to survive mentally. They don't care if the world around them is falling apart, much like cocaine junkies have little regard for their descend in social status to that of an outcast. They just want to feel better about themselves and that makes everything okay. I call it insanity.

So keep on smoking whatever you are smoking Mr. Pomfret.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Feebornchina: My counterpoints are related to your points. Please repsonds to my counter poinsts instead of brushing aside using your irrational phrases "ridiculous arguments", etc. You mentioned software piracy, I simply responeded by saying that one owns what one pay for. You mentioned angry Tibetans. I responded that there are angry people everywhere like "US having more people breaking laws "per person" than China", "American's retirement vaporized" makes many American angry. I simply responded by saying that simply angry doesn't empower legally anybody to revolt. You mentioned before " two wrongs do not make one right". It is more right to say " two wrongs require equal justice" , not preferential treatment. I hope you understand "equal justice before the law". It is wrong to say "life for most people in the world is about more than money and politics". More people die for democracy, freedom, civil war, all kinds of wars,love, economic (MONEY), dominance, etc than human right. I hope you understand. If "Dalai Lama does not care about money and politics", he would have refused the financial support and political honors he received from all those anti-China thugs and goons countries and organizations and sneaked back to Tibet to fullfill his Buddha's compassion to suffer, comfort and rescue his suffering Tibetans in Tibet instead of living a comfortable life in a foreign country. I hope you understand.

I think if Hu Jintao goes to London, or Tokyo or New York, he would not draw crowds nearly as big as if the Dalai

ckk2008 Author Profile Page:

Scholar Wang, please do not be a warmonger. Predicting the future is a sham, relying on your personal opinions like everybody else opinions are useless.
The Tibetans faith on one man the Dalai Lama to give them the identity of a people ,a nation free from the rule of the Chinese States, it is a wish , like different types of wishes any human would like to have , so do not fan the hatred now when the man is still alive unless you are influence by the Dalai Lama unconsciously to speak on his behalf. The Dalai Lama is a remarkable human being, he appears to different people according to the perceptions most endearing to the observers, as a man with many world prestigious awards handed to him, a down trodden political leader in-exile of the Tibetans , spiritual head of the Tibetan Buddhism, an reincarnation of the divine diety of Compassion. When he speaks and gestures, he display some or all the characters , the observers may pick up the imprints due to his /her disposition best understood by the individuals personal agenda. Of course, these are my opinions , also useless.

charlie1111 Author Profile Page:

U.K. Policy Angers Tibet Ahead of Beijing Talks
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122549900302589905.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

I didn't know that Britain has been keeping this issue unclear for all these years. One positive from this is that, there will be less encouragement from the west for the government-in-exile.

charlie1111 Author Profile Page:

To Freebornchina
I have seen a crowd of Dalai Lama in New York. You may be right, he can draw quite a few people into Central park including Richard Geere and many hippies. Of course there are a few people who have been reading western reports like this and obviously misinformed.

If president Hu were to have an open event like this, I am sure he would draw a big crowd as well. But His time is more precious when he is abroad and his audience is very selective.

You sometimes equal one's love for China to CCP. I think this is a mistake although in the Tibet case (or Taiwan), most Chinese people happen to be in support of the CCP and the government. Many may think the government is too soft in dealing with the riots in March. But most will view Tibet as just another province and will not care what some hippies may think about it. It is not easy to drive a wedge among the Chinese people. Certainly not as easy as pitching the Iraqis against each other (not along ethnic lines but religious divides).

Both India and Pakistan have democracy. But they are treated differently by the west. And India has many conflicts within its borders. It even has a social structure based on caste system. I am sure it is not fair other than to the upper class. And I am sure China doesn't want this kind of democracy.

In the small eastern democracies, most started after their economic development. Singapore can't be viewed as a democracy. Does it matter? People in Singapore seem to live in harmony.

There are about 70 million CCP party members in China. Each member has a number of family members. Assume most of their family members have similar view, then the CCP has substantial support in China. And this party can't survive without the right policy for the benefit of most people. And China's policy has been mostly positive for the last 30 years. So at this time, driving wedges among the people and CCP is also a hard sell.

There are many debates about Dalai lama from March to August. It is very hard to convince either side. But I think China can't accept a "greater Tibet" and can't accept the Dalai lama as anything but a religious leader so not to disrupt the current political order in Tibet. Economically, there are many affirmative policies toward Tibet. But there will be no such preferable treatment when it comes to the sovereignty issue. I can't imagine China accept what Dalai lama is demanding.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

Thmak talks like there is no such thing as a patent or a software license. Now Chinese scientists were trying very hard to develop new patents. But their business will not be very successful with people like you around...for China to catch up with the West means that piracy has to stop. What does this have to do with Tibet? Oh, right, some ridiculous argument about the US having more people breaking laws "per person" than China, so that must make Tibet immune to criticism from the US media or some such. Let's get back on track.

Okay, you said American's retirement vaporized so that's more important than Tibet and nobody should be able to criticize China if the value of their stock is dropping. See, that's wrong because Tibet is about human rights, not money. (Why am I bothering to say this?) Many of your remarks seem so unrelated...this is not a debate anyway, it is a discussion, but I don't see how I have to refute anything that you do not support with facts or at least reasonable logic based on some sort of theory...I'll say again, life for most people in the world is about more than money and politics. I think you know that. But I think you cannot accept that the Dalai Lama does not care about money and politics, and has given up trying to talk to a government that insists on total control of Tibet because it cares about little else.

I think if Hu Jintao goes to London, or Tokyo or New York, he would not draw crowds nearly as big as if the Dalai Lama were to go. Why do you think this is so?

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Freebornchina: Out of the many counterpoints of mine, you respond to only one. I assume you agree to the rest. About software piracy, many people have different opinion. Normally,When one buy things, one has complete control of it and can do whatever they want to it. So people just extend this to software they buy. USA spend milions of dollars on research, the results are public. Any body can use the results in whatever way they want. No piracy here

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

General Yue:

"But we Chinese also forgive Chinese like Mao, because he kept us united and stood up, those who ran away with Westerners should never come back.

If you run away with him, you better marry them, do you know what is loyalty is all about?"

I see, you have no answer for my arguments, so you call me a traitor and say people who break down your house should be shot. In conclusion, you threaten to kill me. And I am not afraid of you, I still post comments. How does that feel, general?

Mao united millions of Chinese, that was good. And then he killed millions of Chinese, made them starve so that China could have more steel, that was wicked. It is possible for a person to be good and bad.

I understand loyalty. I hope for a better China. How quick you think everyone who disagrees with you gets paid from America. Well, I don't, if you care. I also do not believe in blind loyalty to those who pay me. That is being mercenary and it is the path to corruption. If that is what it means to be in CCP, no thank you. Maybe Peter could explain more about the CCP and change my mind, I do not think he would call me a traitor. Probably our first problem is to calm down irrational haters like we see from you. I think we could be a greater country without this intolerance of people who are different. I'm sorry for what the Cultural Revolution did to you, but it should stop with your generation.

And we need to realize our own history, millions of people in the Great Leap Forward and Tibetans were more likely to starve than Han Chinese, because Han Chinese keep what little food they had for themselves. The Tibetans have not forgotten this part of our shared history. The Dalai Lama says he will forget as part of the middle way, so maybe we should let him talk to his people after all, it could prevent more violence. I still have seen no proof that he caused the riots, although you seem happy enough without any. But all people should be innocent until they are proved guilty, this is a human right.

Although you seem very happy to kill people who disagree with you, say they threaten your house, maybe that is why my words do not matter. But you know, a gun does not bring you power, not here.

Personally I think we should have a better house. A peaceful Tibet would be a better house, so we should bring back the Dalai Lama before he dies.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

To freebornchina,

So now you use Chinese novel to support your point of view huh?

my words are truthful, even some are very unfriendly, not like your, always acting you are the victim, and polite.

I think those who try to break down my house should be shot!!!

Nothing is wrong!!!

I suggest you never break American house, they will shoot you too. And nothing is wrong.

And you know about all the things about betraying, only a traitor knows his stuff.

But we Chinese also forgive Chinese like Mao, because he kept us united and stood up, those who ran away with Westerners should never come back.

If you run away with him, you better marry them, do you know what is loyalty is all about?

If American support me, like support you, I serve them with my life, instead of scrambling their tax payer's money, that is the concept of Chinese loyalty.

For you, you never know.

You only cares about yourself, like some of you, live and get benefit of America for 2 generations, but still don't consider yourself as American, disgraceful.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

(Sorry, for English readers that last quote below reads "Better for me to betray the world than for the world to betray me.")

Sometimes I think that the people deciding Chinese government policy towards Tibet all read The Three Kingdoms and liked all the political traps, or maybe also read The Prince. Forcing people to curse the Dalai Lama and such.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

Thmak:

"USA has the highest law-breaking citizens per capita in the world."

Well, I don't know what you mean. Do you mean, break any law? Only a very small number of urban Chinese pay taxes. Almost nobody waits for the light to turn green before crossing the street. But maybe it's more serious crimes. Nobody in China can buy a gun, so there are more crimes with gun in the US. Is that what you mean? How about using fake software? How is that not breaking the law? And everyone I know does it. Moreover, so few people do not use pirated software that I cannot tell you whether I personally do or not, because if I actually have never stolen software you could almost use only that to try to figure out who I am.

Also, how can you possibly trust Chinese police statistics? Everyone knows many crimes are not recorded by police so that the leaders get promotion. And no supervision by the people like in democracies, so no solution because the high-level leaders were the best at getting promoted.

In conclusion, I doubt what you say about "highest law-breaking citizens per capita in the world." Maybe the US is just more honest, although sometimes too arrogant.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

General Yue:

"People like them should be shot. and nothing is wrong with that.

Now you people understand that why you will never separate our home.

We risk the west camera and amplifier, also risk their guns and missiles, and to hell well promise, those who try to divide our home are enemy period."

You people? Who do you mean? People from many countries read this blog. And you speak as if there is only black and white.

You risk no guns and missiles from the West. But you do risk high blood pressure, which can be handled with frequent exercise and no smoking.

I have a quote for you. It is by another general. Do you know it?

"寧教我負天下人,休教天下人負我."

A man who would betray his own family for the Communist Party (or sometimes in the Party, his own gain?), this is a product of the Cultural Revolution. Which was chaotic and evil. My friends are not like that, Yue Fei. I tell you that loyalty is a virtue, but it is neither noble nor patriotic to pledge blind loyalty, in fact it is the way of corruption. I think even most people in the CCP understand that.

That is strong criticism, I know. But I urge you to think about these things.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

This is General Yue:

"If those who don't want to be Chinese, then move out, any country could accept them, and I hope they can be faithful to their new home.

Go in peace."

This is General Yue three hours later:

"People like them should be shot. and nothing is wrong with that."

Gee, I don't even need to say anything.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

THMAK,

"Wicked" is used to describe someone or something that is very bad and deliberately harmful to people.
(Collins English Dictionary)

GENERALYUEFEI wrote:
"If my family tear up my home, I shoot them myself.
You like it?
People like them should be shot. and nothing is wrong with that."

I call that wicked and I think it meets the criteria as laid down in the dictionary.

As for your remark
"Good people always consider other people good."

I appreciate that, thanks.

Why did I call you a CCP guy?
Reading your reply to CARRYANNE's posting on the parallel blog "Dalai Lama's Surrender", in particular your remark
"As we all know haste makes waste."
as an apology for tens of millions of deaths during Mao's rule was just a little bit more than I could stomach.
Surely, only a stern CCP member would have come up with such an explanation...

If you, nevertheless, aren't a CCP member, my apologies.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

Samuel P. Huntington said all true in intentional politics.

thmak Author Profile Page:

Dalai Lama will not be able to solve the Tibetan issues. He lives comfortably abroad and talks to foreign governments most of the time instead of negotiating with China. To win a sport game, one has to be in the playing field or inside the ring. Spectators shouting and cheering on the spectator stand will not enable any team to win. Dalai Lama behaves like a cheer leader, a spectacular cheer leader at half-time. Mandella and Gandhi struggled inside their own countries and worked along with their suffering countrymen. Dalai Lama escaped to a comfortable life abroad and left the so-called suffering Tibetan behind. Mao never left China to Russia when he was chased around by the then Chinese government. That indicates Dalai Lama is not a truthful leader. He still can sneak back to China to fight for his vision as any great leader did but he doesn't have the slightest Buddhist's compassion to do just that.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

To thmak:

Comparing with sinister FreeTibet Chameleon,CCP is nothing.

If the outsiders are full of Chameleon,most of Chinese is going to convert into CCP.This is why the world can always self-correct and hit balance.

Tibet issue is not ideology issue.It is just kidnapped by somebody using ideology cover-up.Otherwise,they have no other excuse to carve Tibet out.

In terms of that,there is nothing shameful to be a CCP to counter against those crooked Chameleons.


Peter34 Author Profile Page:

The ethnic retaliation and casualty today in India is what happens regularly in tomorrow's China as long as CCP recede to Dalai and Western pressure.CCP is going to fail itself even in China if it gives up. Tibetan-in-Exile will plant in Tibet hatred against other ethnic groups as they always do outside Tibet now.

Chinese choose CCP in the past because Western invasion and humiliation.Chinese do not believe Western politician because Western just show us they can invade Iraq at their will and they can rate Russia as undemocratic at their liking.The outside hostility created a nationalism in Russia and as such Russian needs a strong central government to protect their needs.Good lesson to China.

FreeTibet campaign has been changing according to the strengthen of China.From military subversion,political independence pursuit,to "democratic" autonomy and false accusation of "cultural genocide" ,there is no any consistency.Could anybody believe a FreeTibet chameleon? No!

For the sake of Country's sovereignty,there is no difference between Chinese and Chinese government.

It is funny to see people here try to discredit this Chinese government by using their "Cold War" tactic.All Chinese needs this central power to fight off those chameleons.

CCP clerk is a good honor for all Chinese,better than a traitor of China and collaborator of FreeTibet Chameleon.Hehe...FreeTibet Chameleon,they do not know what a notorious image they have in Chinese and they still instruct Chinese to believe them.

Give your guys a suggestion.If you can solve Israeli-Palestinian problem,you could have a better try in Tibet Issue. Otherwise,we will still keep posting here for hundreds years.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: If you are intelligent and resourceful enough, you can think of more convincing rational to diffuse any argument and counterpoints to your points of view. Blatantly accusing people as CCP guys as your argument only indicates that you are suppressing other people's freedom to express themselves and mentally torture them for a name they don't belong. Calling other people wicked clearly expose your own wickedness. Only wicked people recognised wicked people. Good people always consider other people good. I hope you understand.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Amazing! These CCP guys are relentless in diffusing any argument and insisting on China's oppression of Tibet - however many Tibetans need to be shot to that end.

At least, they are thoroughly exposing their wicked thinking to Western readers as well as Chinese bloggers. Thanks for that.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Freebornchina: As long as the terrorist Tibetans exist, the problem of the 1950s exists as soon as opportunity arises. In every country, there are a lot of angry people, feeling oppressed or tortured. USA has the highest law-breaking citizens per capita in the world. They are rebellious and angry. People are feeling tortured and oppressed by those financial instituions during the recent economic meltdown in America. Their whole retirment vaporized. So what is the big fuss about the SMALL number of angry Tibetans.

jiaming Author Profile Page:

freebornchina :
Jiaming,

I agree with you, Americans can be arrogant when they try to say that other people should believe what they do. And when they make bad choices the arrogance is more obvious. But, when they say that other people should get to have a choice, I agree. China could have all the money and power in the world one day and still not have very much respect, because the government suppresses independent thought.
======================================

Other people should get to have a choice. What kind of choices? and who gets to make which choice? It's easy to make a generalized statement like that. I should have the choice to do what I see is important to me with my tax money, such as R&D on renewable energy. Why do I not get that choice in any society? Who is "the people"? It is a generic term politicians use freely. Do all people have the same objectives? same values? same morality? Many choices made by individuals or particular groups in a society do impact the interests, rights and freedom of others. The choice that Dalai Lama wants to segregate his greater Tibet from the rest of China infringe upon the rights of Chinese citizens (Han, Muslim and all other ethnic Chinese) to freely move and live in Tibet. The primary responsibilities of a government is to uphold rules agreed upon by the society and to promote a better living standard of its citizens. The government has no responsibility (or the rights) to promote the interests of one particular group over others, and certainly not to give seccesion power to those who disagree with the majority.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

To freebornchina,

I have also seen those Han Chinese were shot by Chinese on the border, million of them.

If my family tear up my home, I shoot them myself.

You like it?

People like them should be shot. and nothing is wrong with that.

Now you people understand that why you will never separate our home.

We risk the west camera and amplifier, also risk their guns and missiles, and to hell well promise, those who try to divide our home are enemy period.

Get it?

jiaming Author Profile Page:

This is why I'm so tired of the Tibet subject. It's like a broken record repeating the same bad song over and over again for half a century. China needs not defend its rule on Tibet any more than the US needs to defend its soverignty on the whole western half of the country. Contrary to the belief of most common Chinese people, I do not think that Western journalists like Pomfret is using this issue to pull China apart. They know they have no chance after decades of trying.

One of the definitions of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Applying this definition to the way Western media have been chewing on the Free-Tibet bone for decades is quite fitting. The thing is, insanity comes in many forms. In this case, the Western media elites just want to feel superior, by any means possible. They are often preaching to the choir, which is the Western readers of course. They don't like criticism and will tell you to go away if you disagree. The whole point is to feel good about themselves. It is a pathological reassurance, a form of psychological narcotic if you will, that they need in order to survive mentally. They don't care if the world around them is falling apart, much like cocaine junkies have little regard for their descend in social status to that of an outcast. They just want to feel better about themselves and that makes everything okay. I call it insanity.

So keep on smoking whatever you are smoking Mr. Pomfret.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

Jiaming,

I agree with you, Americans can be arrogant when they try to say that other people should believe what they do. And when they make bad choices the arrogance is more obvious. But, when they say that other people should get to have a choice, I agree. China could have all the money and power in the world one day and still not have very much respect, because the government suppresses independent thought.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

General Yue,

"If those who don't want to be Chinese, then move out, any country could accept them, and I hope they can be faithful to their new home."

A noble belief. I wish the police would agree with that. We've seen the video of Tibetans getting shot while trying to cross the border into India.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

Thmak,

The CIA has not given money or guns to Tibetans since the 1950s (and apparently they might have still been doing it as late as the 1960s, some people here say.) But now? No. In the future? Who knows, but they have no reason to think they would be successful so that's a pretty good reason they would not try. Your argument is old, I think. The Tibetans riot because they are angry, not because the US or any other country is giving them guns.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

Jiaming,

No amount of money can give Chinese government the moral high ground.

No amount of power can give Chinese government the moral high ground.

That is why Hu Jia is powerless and poor but still is as influential as China's state leaders.

It is why arguments of "they are just as bad as us, so it is okay for us to do this" do not work. Because there are people and governments that are not as bad. Look at the African countries that are strong to criticize the Chinese diplomats that want to open new mines -- these countries are poorer than China and have mines with better safety records. The US is in a financial crisis, but its reporters can still criticize China. There is a reason the Tibetans listen to the Dalai Lama, and it has nothing to do with money.

Thmak, you want me to give you the names and addresses of people in China who are afraid to post, so you have "proof"? No. If you don't know anybody like that yourself, I think you haven't been paying attention.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: You stated "In Canada the Quebecois, if they insisted, could probably become independent of the rest of Canada.
As it is, the majority rather wants to remain a part of Canada.
So it is about winning the hearts and the approval of people. And the PRC government is definitely doing the opposite with the Tibetans". What happens if the minority Quebacois who want independence are given arms, economic and military support by a superpower to revolt militarily? The PRC have been trying to win the hearts and approval of the Tibetans to stay in China by improving their future but the revolting minority are also trying with the support of anti-China thugs and goons to win the hearts and approval of the Tibetans to be independent. That complicates the resolution issues. I hope you understand.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Jaihind: You stated: "we have to have an agreed solution for all problems in the world to fix a particular one? That won't get us anywhere, will it?". That will at least get us in the right direction even though it may not solve all problems at once. In any country, the law applies to everybody, not just a particular person. Recognition by UN as an independent country is set according to specific definitions, not according to any particular or distinctive claims or grievances or on an individual basis. No preferential treatment should be allowed. Claim granted to one party must also be granted to other party for similar reason. The right to post here is open to all and not just to Jaihind because he has a particular name and a particular "grievance" of against Chinese policy in Tibet and particular "aspiration" of Tibetan independence. I hope you understand.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

The problem of Tibet is caused by the current autonomy policy that permitted by the government,
if such policy won't work, then government must tighten its policy to protect majority residents of Tibet.

Maybe without religion involved in policy is much better than any religion dominates.

Secondly, China must fix her border around that area, not to allow any foreigners come in as their will.

I do not like anyone tear apart my homeland, those are enemy, even they are my family or Dalai.

Tibet is China, Tibetan are Chinese.

If those who don't want to be Chinese, then move out, any country could accept them, and I hope they can be faithful to their new home.

Go in peace.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Aprogressiveindependent,

I don't question your observations but I wonder whether your argument works...
You're asking:
"Is anyone going to contend, to be consistent, on every occasion when people in a certain region, seek independence they are entitled to it? Or, if some groups are to be allowed independence and others denied this goal, why the exceptions?"

That means we are throwing Palestine, India, Bangladesh and Tibet and numerous others in one basket, and then we have to decide: if India merited independence, does Tibet? If Tibet doesn't, did India?

Every such place has its own history, Tibetans have their particular grievances and aspirations, as do the Chinese have their concerns. They are not replicated in the same form in any other place.
Are you suggesting we have to have an agreed solution for all problems in the world to fix a particular one? That won't get us anywhere, will it?

Aprogressiveindependent Author Profile Page:

The fact is very few countries in the past or in the contemporary era willingly allow independence or autonomy, which is subtantially independence, to people seeking these goals. Is anyone going to contend, to be consistent, on every occasion when people in a certain region, seek independence they are entitled to it? Or, if some groups are to be allowed independence and others denied this goal, why the exceptions?

So if Tibet is to be independent or largely independent, should the same freedom be accorded to the two breakaway provinces of Georgia or should the Georgian government, as implicitly advocated by McCain and certain others in this country, be allowed to use force to maintain unity, to regain control of the two provinces, in its country. McCain and Palin seem willing to risk World War III with Russia to support Georgia in being allowed to suppress secession in these two provinces.

Should Israel be pressured to give up all of its occupied territory since 1967 or go further back, to the original borders, as established by the United Nations, so the Palestinians can have independence or substantial independence? There is very little likelihood Israel will ever do this or the United States would pressure Israel to do so?

Clearly a majority of persons living in the southern states in the United States supported independence in 1861. Should the Lincoln administration have abaonded Fort Sumter to prevent a civil war and allow the majority in this region of the country to have the independence they wanted?

Palin, according to news reports, once had ties to an Alaska secessionist group. Should independence be allowed if a majority of people in Alaska or Hawaii ever wanted this? What if a majority of native Americans belonging to a certaint tribe on a reservation wanted independence or greater "automonomy?"

Israel has successfully, through strong vigorous displays of using force, defeated all Palestinian uprisings in occupied territories. The Chinese government, if they choose, have the same potential forces to quell any Yibetan uprisings, just as Georgian forces could force the breakway provinces back under their control, if Russia was deterred by Georgia becoming a member of NATO, as McCain hopes will occur.

Hopefully moderates on both sides may someday prevail, leading to a compromise, on the Tibetan issue. Pomfret and some Americans seem to advocate a "compromise" where the Chinese give in to all of the demands of Tibetans. This would be akin, whether right or wrong, to the Israel government accepting a "compromise," whereby the Palestinians win everything they want. Yet compromises, by definition, implies give and take, with both sides being unhappy with certain aspects of the agreement. This simply being realistic, not being judgmental, favoring either side in any of the examples I have given.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

JIAMING:

P.S. If you feel you can contribute to solving the current economical, financial and political crisis in the US, that is appreciated. But you may just be on the wrong blog. This one's about Tibet...

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

OK JIAMING,

guess we are not totally opposed, are we? ;-)
BTW, I don't quite condemn Chinese state media but take them for what they are, namely *state* media.
As we both know, all media are "biased" in a strict sense as the authors are who publish in them. Personally, I have hardly met a human being which didn't have an opinion.
The trouble usually arises from taking opinion to be fact. And from forcing one's "fact" on another human being at the other's cost...

Anyway, I understand your point:
"I am saying that it is more a relection of the sorry state of affair in America, where the media choose to lecture others about their governance when their own government is completely messing up the most powerful and wealthy nation on earth."

But I would still claim that in an open vibrant society there are all kinds of interests (see my earlier reply to your previous posting).
Pomfret, as Wang Lixiong, or me for that matter, maybe just more interested in Tibet than in the current financial or governmental crisis in the US.
That's fair enough. I can't see a problem in it...

jiaming Author Profile Page:

Calm down JAIHIND. You tell your critics to go somewhere else instead of giving their criticism if they don't like it. Don't you want Chinese to read Western writing rather than People Daily? So just because you don't like the criticism, you are turning people to the state-controlled Chinese media that you condemn?

What I meant was that this article is telling Americans that Tibet is going to have major uprising because the Chinese government is not dealing with the issue correctly. The author clearly wants to reflect the mismanagement of the country by Beijing. I am saying that it is more a relection of the sorry state of affair in America, where the media choose to lecture others about their governance when their own government is completely messing up the most powerful and wealthy nation on earth.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

PETER34,
you like facts. May I point your attention to the previous thread "Dalai Lama's surrender?"?
CARRYANN has got all those facts and statistics.
Sorry for failing you on that matter...

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

JIAMING,
I don't get your point:
"Articles like this one and journalists like Mr. Pomfret are much more a reflection of Americans than the rest of the world."

Pomfret is only introducing an essay by a Chinese intellectual, that is all. It's hardly an article. And no wonder it is more a reflection of Americans than the rest of the world. This guy *is* American (and not Chinese)! What do you expect?
You go on blasting American media when the issue actually is "The next Tibetan uprising?".
What's the point?

If you don't like to read Pomfret's blog, there are plenty of others. Take a pick.
Like the People's Daily. It's got interesting articles on offer like "Dalai clique is chief criminal of violence". It's presumably more humble...

jiaming Author Profile Page:

Articles like this one and journalists like Mr. Pomfret are much more a reflection of Americans than the rest of the world. People around the world almost unanimously view Americans as arrogant. The recent crisis in the US and an article like this really highlight this fact. Americans have assumed that they have a better political and economic system than the rest of the world, despite the fact the GW Bush is probably one of the worst leaders in the world and the US financial system has created one of the worst economic crisis in history. Millions of babyboomers in America are about to face the stark reality that they may not be getting the pension and social security checks that they rely on for retirement because the government kept taking money from the pool that was supposed to be for them.

Just imagine for a moment that if the Chinese government is fighting an unpopular war abroad that already killed thousands of Chinese and 100 times more Iraqis, dug a $52 trillion financial hole for its citizens and their children to pay for, created a massive housing collapse that drove millions out of their homes, a once-in-a-century financial tsunami(according to Alan Greenspan), mismanaged the economy so bad that the Yuan sank 50% from 1.2 to 0.7 Euro in just 6 years, millions of retirees are facing cuts in health care and even money that they put in while they were working. I don't care if all Tibets can go to visit the Dalai Lama daily, Falong Gong believers can practice whatever voodoo magic they want, Dissidents are allowed to gather in Tiananmen Square to protest human rights all day long, the Chinese government would have been in serious trouble.

Until Americans, especially the media elite like Mr. Pomfret, learn some humility, the United States will not be a superpower for long. History has proven that great empires fall because they are too arrogant to learn and adapt. China has been steadily learning from the rest of the world and liberalizing for the last three decades. At this point, Chinese citizens can care less what American media have to say about China. It is the USA that will suffer from the arrogance of media elite. Americans still believe that their country has the best system despite all the troubles because the media has been feeding them that impression. So who is the victim of the arrogant American press?

vineycb1 Author Profile Page:

For more than 20 years past contacts have been held between the Chinese government and Dalai Lama's representatives. Personally, I have observed a progressive decline in Dalai Lama's position and a weakening of his negotiating hand in all those years. Correspondingly, the Chinese government has gone on further hardening its stand and has allowed Tibetans no room for hope that a solution of the Tibetan question was possible. In fact, as far as the Chinese government is concerned, the Tibetan question has been adequately resolved. Tibetans themselves are in no position to mount any kind of challenge to the Chinese government. Many Tibetans have seen virtue in collaborating with the Chinese occupying machinery. To drive home the point, the Chinese have gone on to develop the Tibetan highlands as they have developed several other parts of the PRC, contributing to some industrialization, urbanization - and complete undermining of the traditional order. In fact, if Dalai Lama were now to set foot in Tibet he will probably find nothing there with which he was familiar before 1959 when he left Tibet. In half a century since then nothing has remained the same. So much has changed that Tibet now is an altogether another country from the one that Dalai Lama knew.
Any agreement that the Chinese government may reach with the Tibetan representatives shall not bring about the restoration of the old order. Now, what kind of autonomy are the Tibetan representatives seeking? The Chinese shall allow no play of power to the Dalai Lama under any conditions. The central idea of religious and cultural autonomy really amounts to so little that it is hardly worth working for. That kind of freedom, if it militates against the present order of things, shall not be allowed. If even that is not allowed (as I believe it will not be), then where is the hope that further negotiations can lead to anything with which Dalai Lama and Tibetan exiles can live? The farthest and the most hopeful possibility is that the Chinese shall allow Dalai Lama to return to Lhasa and let him pass on there. A suitable memorial shall be created. The Chinese shall see to it that a successor to Dalai Lama XIV shall not arise any more than a succssor to Panchen Lama X was allowed to arise. In effect, therefore, the Chinese shall succeed in making complete nonsense of the old order of things in Tibet and in eliminating the visible signs of that order - the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama.
If Tibetans care to maintain any hope for their future, they should proceed to make India their permanent home where the Dalai Lama shall always be respected as a distinguished spiritual personage. V.C. Bhutani, Delhi, India, Oct 31, 2008, 1035 IST, vineycb1@vsnl.com

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

PETER34,

I did rest my argument so I will conclude with a few different notes:

1. Experts' books may settle a mathematical argument but not one that involves the aspirations of human beings.

2. History is forever in the making. It is not sealed by some interpretation in some books.

3. For every interpretation there is an opposing one in some other book.

4. If I offended you by suggesting you were a CCP clerk, I do apologize (although I personally think that there is a good likelihood for it, sorry).

5. Personal attack *never* gets an argument right. Any such "attack" of mine was meant with a wink ;-)

All the best

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

To JAIHIND: Yeah,so you have been to Tibet.There are also many others who have opposing view of yours and has been to Tibet.As I said,you are still obsessed with your personal judgment. Statistically,you are "white noise". That is why we refer experts' book and materials,and also make cross reference.

This is not to JaiHind: FreeTibet promoters have been shifting arguments from "independent fact",to statistics, to historical document,to political principle to international law...and then finally to personal judgment.The renewed faulting and attacking has been on and on but never stand on a consistent,solid ground.Presumably,they are chameleon.

Like they have been doing,labeling all of us with "CCP secret police" and then force us all rest.Personal attack does not get their argument right automatically.But I truly rest this argument voluntarily here.


JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

PETER34,

you write:

"To JAIHIND :

I hope others read your answers to my questions carefully.You have all judgment and conjecture as return,which are all personal and not based on reality & fact."

What is this "reality & fact" thing that you are so obsessed with? Having been to Tibet as well as China, having stayed with Tibetans in Tibet as well as in exile, to me that is more "fact" than your supposed "reality & fact" gathered from books and web pages which you insist on so adamantly.
In fact, it is ridiculous and, if you look at it philosophically, childish to take book-words for the truth and try to win an argument with them.
But then a child wouldn't understand this...

"I rest my argument with you here,since it is pointless to exchange our empty judgment and conjecture."

Oh yes, I gladly rest it too!

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

To JAIHIND :

I hope others read your answers to my questions carefully.You have all judgment and conjecture as return,which are all personal and not based on reality & fact.

I rest my argument with you here,since it is pointless to exchange our empty judgment and conjecture.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

PETER34,

maybe my previous reply to JIAMING goes some way in explaining my position...

As for your points:

Ad 1.
There's really no point comparing the Tibetan issue with the Lacotans'.
You see, the point is:
In Canada the Quebecois, if they insisted, could probably become independent of the rest of Canada.
As it is, the majority rather wants to remain a part of Canada.
So it is about winning the hearts and the approval of people. And the PRC government is definitely doing the opposite with the Tibetans.
Locking out UN bodies and world media to beat up, lock up and "re-educate" the Tibetans ad nauseam will only drive them to "never again want to live under one roof with the Chinese".
It's not the fault of the Chinese people, it's failed, inhumane policies...

Ad 2.
I think you're right about the exile constitution. That is where they started from. Only later the Dalai Lama started to opt for a mutually beneficial approach, i.e. meaningful autonomy within the PRC.
In the end, it's a democratic constitution which may get amended one way or the other. The Tibetans in exile are just about to chart a new path as you know.

Ad 3.
I don't know how much personal involvement with the CIA he had. You may want to study Tsering Shakya's book "The Dragon in the Land of Snows".
But then, as with any book, after reading it you still don't actually know the truth, do you?
In fact, Buddhism is all about this in essence...

Ad 4.
The Tibetans want the population transfer to be stopped. They don't want all Han or Hui to return to their native places. That's a myth.
What would change is the priorities. If a Han, Hui, Westerner, Indian, whoever wanted to live and work in Tibet he would be expected to understand the local language which is Tibetan. And Tibetan would be the primary language in school as well.
Surely, the Han in Tibet can learn a second language (as they expect the Tibetans to do).
Nothing special by the way, Indians usually speak anything between 2 and 8 languages. That comes from being a real multi-ethnic country which China is not yet...

Peter34 Author Profile Page:


To RajaGopalan1 or HaiHind:

Let's talk about fact instead of labeling each other "nationalistic" or "zealot".

I hope you Democratic talkers get some fact before your talk instead slinging "democracy",the general words,to immediately claim your justification.

As follows are some facts I posted but you pro-FreeTibet guys are so far selectively oblivious to:

1.No the absolute practice of nation self-determination overriding territory integrity principle.U.S just issued its warning of Russia to stay away from Georgian territory,though Ossetian want self-determination. Besides,U.S government and media never give Lacota the chance to vote for independence.

2.Had Dalai choose the middle way of highly autonomy,why Independence Pursuit is still in the constitution of the government of Tibet-in-Exile?

3.Suppose Dalai were a pacifist and a spiritual leader on high moral ground,why he had cooperation with CIA engaging in military subversion activities in and around ATR,many people dead for that?

4. In Dalai Lama's autonomy region,Han Chinese has no right to move in and live,no Chinese troops can station,and all sorts of limit exist.Could you tell me whether India should pull its troop out of the Muslim area in India to give Muslim more autonomy?
--(Don't assume Muslim don't want independence in India and we all know this history in India.I assume you are an Indian;otherwise,my fool and my misfiring.)

Your answer is highly valued and your discussion about such topics shows more your ingenuity in Tibet issue rather than a game-playing.

I am looking forward to your answer and my fellow Chinese's argument.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

JIAMING,
you are right: there are financial problems currently, at least more than are usually the case.
And you are suggesting: let's only focus on these issues.
The problem: even if you are interested or absorbed in them, I happen not to be.

Fortunately, human beings tend to have many different interests (which applies to journalists as well). Otherwise, everyone would surely be an investment banker and humanitarian organisations like Amnesty International or religious places would be utterly deserted...

There have always been problems in the - let's call it - "material" world. Neither the Communists (having wholeheartedly turned Capitalist recently) have fixed them, nor the Capitalists in wealthy America.
Nor have authoritarian or any particular political systems (although I personally prefer a democratic system because, at least, it allows me and everyone else to have his own opinion; and I am feeling somewhat protected by the rule of law).

Truly, at this point in time the CCP has managed to provide an economical boom that most mainland Chinese are proud of (regardless of the fact that it actually happened despite the CCP; Chinese in Hongkong, Singapore, Taiwan and so forth have enjoyed that level of wealth and opportunities for a long time). So everyone's a bit drunken with the recent success, and this has happened similarly historically in many parts of the world. The mainland Chinese one day will also return to the ever-recurring ground realities that you have so eloquently quoted for the US.
Contrary to wishful thinking, there is no automatic linear progression in terms of happiness or satisfaction with increasing wealth.

What frustrates me is that the CCP has blatantly usurped "the truth" (as all Communist regimes have done historically, in that sense it's "normal"), and for that reason there's untold suffering inside Tibet and in exile.
And yes, I happen to have spent considerable time in China, Tibet and India. I like to think that I "know" first-hand what I talk about. And that is why it concerns me and why I don't just want to put up with it...

I don't blame them but if only mainland born Chinese bloggers could for once step outside their homogenous mindset and look at the issue from a Tibetan's point of view.
The degree to which their minds have been programmed uniformly and the lack of capacity to transcend that are really an obstacle to any progress.

As Zhou Xiaozheng, a sociologist at People’s University in Beijing has noted about the nationalist fervour after the Tibetan uprising in March:
“This just shows that Chinese people have lived too long in a world with unbalanced information. After listening too long to only one side of the story, we have developed zero tolerance for a difference of opinion. In this mindset, you are either on our side or you deserve to be stepped on forever.”

It is this mentality that keeps the oppression of the Tibetans by the CCP going...

jiaming Author Profile Page:

JAIHIND wrote:
Where did you get the information from that you quote so eloquently ($42 trillion of unfunded programs, millions of American seniors...)?
Did you do your own research into all these issues?
===============================

I don't know where have you been. Everyday there are new articles revealing just how deep America's financial hole is. The $52 trillion hole ($10.3T national debt + $41T unfunded entitlement programs + $1T financial bailouts) is the current figure. This is the article from CNN just TODAY, hot off the press.

ttp://money.cnn.com/2008/10/28/magazines/fortune/babyboomcrisis_walker.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008103010

At a time like this, you would think that American journalists might find some humility that's obviously been buried deep inside them, if there is any of course. Instead, they are perfectly unbashful in lecturing China, a country from whom the US and Europe repeatedly pleaded for financial support. I am not saying China is perfect or even better than the US. I'm saying that given the troubles America is finding herself in today, there is a thing or two about good governance that the Chinese leaders can teach Washington. But the arrogance of the American media elite is destroying the US with their feel-good nationalistic lecturing on the rest of the world.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

To RajaGopalan1 or HaiHind:

I hope you Democratic talkers get some fact before your talk instead slinging "democracy",the general words,to immediately claim your justification.

As follows are some facts I posted but you pro-FreeTibet guys are so far selectively oblivious to:

1.No the absolute practice of nation self-determination overriding territory integrity principle.U.S just issued its warning of Russia to stay away from Georgian territory,though Ossetian want self-determination. Besides,U.S government and media never give Lacota the chance to vote for independence.

2.Had Dalai choose the middle way of highly autonomy,why Independence Pursuit is still in the constitution of the government of Tibet-in-Exile?

3.Suppose Dalai were a pacifist and a spiritual leader on high moral ground,why he had cooperation with CIA engaging in military subversion activities in and around ATR,many people dead for that?

4. In Dalai Lama's autonomy region,Han Chinese has no right to move in and live,no Chinese troops can station,and all sorts of limit exist.Could you tell me whether India should pull its troop out of the Muslim area in India to give Muslim more autonomy?
--(Don't assume Muslim don't want independence in India and we all know this history in India.I assume you are an Indian;otherwise,my fool and my misfiring.)

Your answer is highly valued and your discussion about such topics shows more your ingenuity in Tibet issue rather than a game-playing.

I am looking forward to your answer and my fellow Chinese's argument.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

Why not look at it this way:

We are all human beings, same hardware, only different software. As with all software there are compatibility issues...

A Chinese who is running on IAmChinese 1.113 and a Tibetan running on IAmTibetan 1.3 are quite incompatible.
Reasons are that they contain very different core modules (e.g. TibetanBuddhism 1.5 vs. CommunistAtheism 1.1).

Generally a non-Chinese running on LiberalDemocraticUpbringing 4.5 tends to be more compatible with the Tibetan than the Chinese software (which may explain why Chinese students tend to mix mostly with themselves).

Intercompatibility with the Chinese software is further complicated by an add-on on IAmChinese, namely CCPTruths 3.4 (there have been a number of major revisions on this particular software - only the "cat" stayed the same - "It doesn't matter what colour the cat is..."). This add-on contains sub-modules like RallyBehindTheCCP2.3 and DiffuseAnyArgument1.7 which are automatically triggered when a filter (part of FilterSupposedAnti-ChinaContents3.2) detects any malware that is listed on the CCPTruth-Servers.

As always, you can not blame the hardware for software faults...

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

JIAMING:
"The US media still won't let go on Tibet huh? What an waste of time. To be honest, $42 trillion of unfunded programs, millions of American seniors will not be getting their pension, medicare and social security checks, their retirement portfolios tank by 50%. That's a real tragedy compared to Tibetans not being allowed to hang pictures of Dalai Lama. But that's okay. American journalists like to lecture about other people's "problems". Ha ha!"

Where did you get the information from that you quote so eloquently ($42 trillion of unfunded programs, millions of American seniors...)?
Did you do your own research into all these issues?
Surely it is not from lecturing American journalists, is it? And quite impossibly from lecturing Chinese journalists as Chinese journalists would never lecture about other peoples' problems (they cannot even report on their own... huh).
Ha, ha, blabber, blabber...

RajaGopalan1 Author Profile Page:

The Dalai Lama's request for religious and cultural freedom can seem reasonable to Americans and other free people but it is still anathema to the Chinese. What the Dalai Lama is asking for Tibet is: DEMOCRARACY!! This is something that even the rest of China does not have. Unless China itself moves to democracy, Tibet will not get the religious autonomy that it so reasonably seeks.

raja gopalan

loud Author Profile Page:

If Mongols invaded Tibet and China then Tibet and China should be part of Mongolia!
Right now China does not have the moral high ground. No matter how much money the government spends to make it look good everybody, except people in China, knows the truth. A Chinese leader will not be able to walk with pride in most of the free world. The government should seriously talk with the Dalai Lama and solve the problem and look good in the international stage. Nobody wants to spend time berating another person or leader. The world is getting much smaller and flatter by the day and Chinese government cannot be feeling awkward in the world community.

jiaming Author Profile Page:

The US media still won't let go on Tibet huh? What an waste of time. To be honest, $42 trillion of unfunded programs, millions of American seniors will not be getting their pension, medicare and social security checks, their retirement portfolios tank by 50%. That's a real tragedy compared to Tibetans not being allowed to hang pictures of Dalai Lama. But that's okay. American journalists like to lecture about other people's "problems". Ha ha!

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Freebornchina: This forum is for discussion of issues and facts, not venting childish feelings. If one runs out of rationale, don't moan and groan. I'm one of the poster who are not "tire of it quickly", only those who have no more rationale to debate. No body claims "right or wrong", only to lay bare the reasons and facts for everyone to decide. No body wants to dominate, only wants the freedom to express one's viewpoint. I hope you understand. It is not "two wrongs make a right". It is to set a level playing field, fair to every parties, not partial favoritism, not punish one and not the other. "Equal Justice Before the Law". I hope you understand. Stalin never killed anybody himself, Hitler never gassed the Jews, Saddam never killed anybody himself, Bush never tortures anybody,any commander never fires shots to kill enemy soldiers, etc. But they are all held accountable. I hope you understand. Where is your "logical" proof that "they are very good examples of loyal Chinese who say what the government wants them to say.". I don't conclude that you are "-----". Where do you get the unproven flimsy idea that "people in China who do not dare to post"? May be they are "tire" of the stale anti-China slogans in WP. I refute your idea point by point. Can you respond the same and where is my "logically flawed"?

saint150076 Author Profile Page:

To bonbobjovi,
I think you read too much Dalai's propaganda.All he said is not true.

"Majority of the Tibetans are still in Tibet, except it is over numbered by Han Chinese immigrants in Tibet."--------False
Up to 1st,Nov,2005.Among 2.76 million people who live in Tibet,Han group only comprimises of 6.52% of the whole populace,160 thousands han people.

"The recent demonstrations all over Tibet calling his return clearly show their respect towards the Dalai Lama and anger at the Chinese occupation of Tibet."------------False
As far as I know,those protesting lamas demanded independence and they didn't show their respect to Dalai but support for him,his effort to gain Tibetan independence.This is not Chinese occupation of Tibet.Tibet was an independent nation before Chinese Yuan dynasty.In 1271,When Yuan dynasty was established,Tibet became a part of China's territory.Dalai can deny this section of Tibet's history?

Yes,there are still few Tibetans trying to flee to India or Nepal.Because Dalai clieque established free schools outside China,they provide exile Tibetans free food,clothes,money,free schools.Those schools include from primary schools to colleges.of course,those shools teach exile Tibetans Dalai's propaganda and Tibetan independence crusade.Those exile Tibetans' mind full of China occupied our home,hatred toward Chinese central government.They have Tibetan seperatists'version of Tibetan history.The main reason for Tibetans fleeing to Dalai's training base is Dalai can give those fleeing Tibetans money and free living.Everything is free and money can be distributed.So poor Tibetans are willing to flee from home.

Can you enlighten me what is genuine autonomy for Tibet?Dalai demands Great Tibetan area.All he demands is just independence in disguise.Only you innocent people will believe him.Do some research into Tibetan history and think about a little Dalai's doings during his life,then you can get a clear answer.

What kind of danger Han Chinese can bring to Tibetans if Han people come to Tibet?It is very common that all 56 ethnic groups can immigrate around China and live together.There are never dangers happening.Dalai's claims of protecting Tibetan religion and culture are totally lies.Religion and culture in Tibet are developing very well.Tibet has maintaining its features.Tibetans are living happily and having good material life.

This is Dalai's way,alwaying behaving peaceful and mellow.He just shows the westerners he is victim hurt by China.He just wants to win western suport for Tibetan independence and humiliation of China's central government.If he didn't say suport Beijing Olympics,then what he can say?No suport for China?That will reveal his true face.He won't do that.All is about his shrewd show.

I strongly recommend you to see French's documentary about Dalai's lies,which was recently broadcasted in France.This is very objective.I hope this can wake you up from deep delusion of Dalai's peaceful image.

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

Peter34:

"Continue your guys' PR trick and traps.Hope you enjoy it,by the way."

Jahind, I think that is the reason it seems like some posters here are "talking to themselves." The point is not always to make rational arguments but just to make the discussion so cheerless that other posters tire of it quickly. So then they're the last people remaining and dominate the blog comments. It doesn't matter to them if their facts are right or wrong, and it seems they only superficially read previous postings, the goal is just to make other people tiring until they give up. At least, that is what I think.

Comparing Tibetans to Australian aborigines, saying that countries that invaded China once become by definition part of China, saying it's perfectly natural to have secret police everywhere and since they spy on Han people too that makes all fine -- in short saying "two wrongs make a right" -- saying the Dalai Lama's actions matter, but not what he says, yet not being able to point out to a single violent action the Dalai Lama himself has taken in fifty years and just saying he's guilty until someone can prove he is innocent...yes, these are all arguments that are logically flawed. I don't think that matters to these people, what matters is they demonstrate that they are very good examples of loyal Chinese who say what the government wants them to say.

I do appreciate one of General Yue's obviously earnest postings on a previous blog, inviting me to dinner. Obviously all the posters are ordinary people that we should try to understand, no matter how hard it is to really talk to them.

There is no doubt that Tibetans love the Dalai Lama, even the younger generation. Like some of the Chinese posters here they too are loyal, but out of love, not fear.

Don't give up, there are many people reading but not posting, including most of the people in China who do not dare to post, knowing their police are watching this blog. And they deserve to know the truth.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Bonbobjovi: His picture is banned in all of Tibet just to remind everyone that he is a separatist and an unwelcome person. Everyone knows President Bush, but that doesn't mean he is everyone's leader. It is false that Tibetans are out-numbered by inland Chinese in Tibet. Even if that is true, what is wrong with that since every Chinese is free to live anywhere they want just like every American can live in any state they want. I hope you understand. There are millions of Tibetans in Tibet. How many of those millions participated in those murderous riots? Possibly only hundreds. Illegal border crossing is illegal. Law and order is law and order. Dalai Lama's effort to dramatize his Tibetan issues before the Olympic failed miserably and he cannot get further international support. Consequently, He is so depressed emotionally and stressed out that he is sick these days. Dalai Lama is a politician. The best skill of an politician is soothe saying the best while doing the opposite. I hope you understand.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

PETER34,

I'd say it's *not* pointless! Time will tell...
I will also rest my argument (with you).

@FREEBORNCHINA:
"and the Western posters believe that people who argue that Tibet is an inseparable part of China are just puppets of a totalitarian state"

I do *not* think so, and I have had very interesting arguments on the issue on other threads.
So far, what's been on offer here hasn't been inviting to get engaged with seriously...
Whether these guys get paid by the CCP or not hardly matters. If it is not true, take it with a pinch of salt. They may be doing the job unknowingly and for free... ;-)

The middle way is not dead yet but it is a very sick patient...

freebornchina Author Profile Page:

Please see the comments for the previous blog, "Dalai Lama's' Surrender?" for a speech from the Dalai Lama to the Chinese people, March 28, 2008.

Interesting, on these message boards there does not seem to be anyone posting who are neutral. I think the Chinese posters believe that anyone who defends the Dalai Lama even a little is anti-China, and the Western posters believe that people who argue that Tibet is an inseparable part of China are just puppets of a totalitarian state.

Where is the Dalai Lama's middle way? Must it die with him?

Janman Author Profile Page:

In all likelihood, Wang just doesn't know much about China history nor the thinking of the majority of Chinese people. China, throughout history, had been undergoing tremendous serious upheavals but at each turns, the country remain unchanged if not, evoluted into a bigger country. My conclusion is that Wang is just like Gordon Chang who are just silly fortune teller, nothing more nothing less. They just need some little money for them to survive for writing nonsense.

My advice to all Tibetans is that they should work peacefully within the framework of the country they are now. If not, they will probably be remembered in the same league as the aborigines of Australia.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

Anyway,don't play a game estranging CCP and common Chinese in Tibet issue.Pointless.

Talk the talk...Sling hatred and instigation do not to scare Chinese.Pointless.

I rest my argument here.


Peter34 Author Profile Page:

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

STEELSIL2, I guess you're right:
"I see that the Chinese ultra-nationalist zelots and disinformation employees of the Chinese secret police have been busy posting here."

general, peter34... These guys must be talking to themselves. It seems no one can be bothered arguing on that level... :O
The CCP propaganda department really ought to hire some more capable staff.


=============================

JAIHIND,STEELSIL2...These guys must be talking to themselves. They never blush when their facts are invalid and they still make comments pretending knowing nothing of what others tell them.... :D

The FreeTobet crooked organ has been so professionally and unbashfully lying.

JAIHIND Author Profile Page:

STEELSIL2, I guess you're right:
"I see that the Chinese ultra-nationalist zelots and disinformation employees of the Chinese secret police have been busy posting here."

general, peter34... These guys must be talking to themselves. It seems no one can be bothered arguing on that level... :O
The CCP propaganda department really ought to hire some more capable staff.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

See how Politics and self interest works for those EU hypocrites:

EU puts Africa ball in China's court
By Bernt Berger

The European Union (EU), traditionally suspicious of China's business-first, pragmatic approach to Africa, has released a groundbreaking policy paper which proposes sharing the responsibility for the continent's great challenges, marking a great step forward in Europe's approach to Beijing's many engagements in Africa.

"The EU, Africa and China: Towards trilateral dialogue and cooperation", was released by the European Commission on October 17. It combines a clear political re-orientation with pragmatic policy options, and in so doing constitutes Europe's first advance towards cooperation with both China and, hopefully, the African Union.

While China has so far remained silent diplomatically on the EU's new policy proposal.... On the surface, China's bilateral and unconditional dealings with African governments seems to have undermined European efforts towards sustainable development. But Chinese and African officials claim China's "soft" diplomacy has been more preferable and successful than Europe's conditional overtures. In light of such developments, the EU has increasingly found itself under zugzwang, a position in which a chess player is compelled to move.
....
Other voices state that the EU has been too careful in its dealings with China, and skirted around confrontation. The crux of the matter is that the EU does not represent its own interests with enough determination, and is therefore running the risk of not being taken seriously by Beijing.
.............
Correspondingly, the argument that China has taken the EU's African policy hostage is anchorless. The EU has defined its own Africa strategy. Cooperation with other important states takes place inside the framework of the OECD-DAC (the Development Assistance Committee under Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development). Only India remains outside any cooperation framework and has shown little interest in joining forces on the African continent.
..............

Roadblock1 Author Profile Page:

You are totally overestimating Tibet. We Chinese lived through the cultural revolution and all kinds of adversities. How big a mess could Tibet ever be? One hundredth of the cultural revolution at most, I'd say.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

Reading all these posts,
I could not stop laughing,
Why are we Chinese been easily separated by US government?
First they cut us off by region,
like Taiwan and Mainland;
Secondly they cut us off by ethnic,
Like Tibet, Mongol, Manchu, Yue(Cantonese), Ugher...
And there are really a lots of stupid Chinese fighting for their 'differences' lol

Do We Chinese suck this much:)?
The only country would be united is
Theeeeee Uuuuuuuuntied Staaates of AAAmericaaa!

can't stop laughing!

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

Dalai Lama on the Himalaya
By General Yue Fei (Pen Name)

Praise, Praise Dalai Lama,
Sitting on the Himalaya,
Watches us and laugh haha,
Peace, Peace he may preach,
Throne of king he does dream.

Tall and high the sky peak,
Stands in her crystal robe,
She greets to Sun and stars,
Feeding the oceans and seas,
But she never talks to any Lama.

You guys like Tibetan Buddhist poem?
This one is for you. Free copyright.

I know Lama also write poem, Tibetan Buddhist poem, does Dalai teach poems? That is one of Tibetan true culture and religious practice.

Peter34 Author Profile Page:

Chinese nationalists shows their less sophistication in such political game,while FreeTibet zealots shows their stunts as a sinister chameleon.

It is preposterous for people to define a "pacifist",who has close cooperation with CIA making numerous military subversion in and around TAR.

It is perverse for people to talk "a little more autonomy",while the independence is white and black in the constitution of the government of Tibet-In-Exile.

It is also funny for people to claim this "saint" bring "peace" to all of our Chinese. Didn't Chinese battle with violence administered by this "saint" or his followers? Should we be scared of a new face of such a "peace"?

As one gentleman said this Chinese government consist of "thug and goon",how could they make Chinese support them in Tibet issue,to say the least?

Ooo,they are "brainwashed";Woo,they are all "secret police on line";All written in Chinese are "fake";China is a "slave prison";Chinese cannot get access to American website;Mao is dictator-what's the hell the business about Mao,anyway?...

If the Tibet issue can be solved by Western muscle like they do to Iraq,it has already been done at any cost of Chinese and no mercy dispensed!--We learned from history.

By the way,Russia become an undemocratic country overnight according to American rating. How can a country pin their hope on the selfish others' evaluation? Russia learned.

Orthodox Church attracts believer and still does not non-believer,anything wrong? Hindus just burnt Christian in India alive.India is a democratic country with full respect for religion.What's wrong? There are numerous temples in China,who cares go and who does not care stay away.

Continue your guys' PR trick and traps.Hope you enjoy it,by the way.

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

Chinese (all 56 ethnic) will never let any part of China be independent, nor we will fall in the trap of Dalai and West to segregate Tibetan and other ethnics as what Dalai wants so he can sit on top of the world and be worship as God, if he really thought Tibet was his homeland(holyland), then he never should have secretly ran away, nor he should compare he religion as Jew, remember, he is no exile, China did not dragged him to India, West and his greeds dragged him away from his home.

Secondly, If Dalai's followers are for peace, do they throw stones?

Any outcome would happen in Tibet after he dies, I know one will happen, he died. he can finally be in peace. So Tibet will finally be peace.

Whether they are many people in Tibet like Dalai is no big deal (I like him also, when he truly starts to focus his religion rather than land), they only like him because his title and name, there were many like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Saddam, Bin Laden...

But government's job is to break down those gods, so people would have peace.

All worshippers' job in this world is not to worship for worship seek, is to obtain peace, nor protest, nor throw stones will bring you anything.

That is why Dalai is not currently doing his Dalai job, remember, China is also multi religion country, even during culture revolution, many churches and temples were pulled down, now there are many people do religion practice.

But what Dalai preach is independent issue, that's why there are only thugs and goons represent and strongly support him, one may see his flock to know about the shepherd.

If I were Dalai I also want to work for Tibet Independent, because have you guys ever have someone prostrate to you to worship and bless you, do you know how that feels? I have one experience on the football field, that I teammate kneel down to praise my kick....

Not to mention thousands kneel and lie down to you, you are God! You will fight to make sure people and their children will worship to you forever.

Too bad, Dalai is not Jesus, not Christ, not God.
His property religion to fading away, as true Tibetan Buddhism Faith all died on his greed, he was nothing but a monk who sits in his stone temple. I pity his believers, how could they let him make them a group of western mob.

Sad.

If I were a Tibetan, I probably hate him for he first abandon us, then teach us to fight for politics, leaving our religious books and scrolls bury in dust.

What people truly care? Peace and food. Not any monk, for peace they even hung their Christ.

Praise, Praise lonely Lama,
Sitting on the Himalaya,
Watches us and laugh haha,
Peace, Peace he may preach,
Sit of king's he often dreams.

Tall and high the sky peak,
Stands in her crystal robe,
She greets to Sun and stars,
Feeding the oceans and seas,
But she never talks to Lama.


steelsil2 Author Profile Page:

I see that the Chinese ultra-nationalist zelots and disinformation employees of the Chinese secret police have been busy posting here. Hear these words of a Buddhist monk from long ago: "Insulting Buddhism is like shooting arrows at the moon."

What Mr. Wang has left out is that with the Dali Lama gone, Tibetans won't fear disappointing him by engaging in violence. Mr. Wang comes closest to understanding the Tibetan people of any Han writer, but even he fails to realize just how personal the relationship between the Tibetan people and the Dali Lama is. They love the Dali Lama in a very personal way, and do not wish to hurt him by being violent.

The Chinese government is run by fools and thugs. Don't they remember that the Soviet Union was an atheist country for 80 years? Now the Russian Orthodox Church is very strong. A people do not forget their religion.

The Chinese fail to realize what to the rest of the world is an obvious truth-the Dali Lama is their best bet for a peaceful resolution with the Tibetans, because he is a pacifist and a man of great good will to all people, including the Chinese people, and he is about to retire from the political stage. Those who replace his political role won't be pacifists, and they won't have any good will at all towards the Chinese people.

bonbobjovi Author Profile Page:

To thmak: If he is not the only religious leader Tibetans revere, why is his picture banned in all of Tibet? Majority of the Tibetans are still in Tibet, except it is over numbered by Han Chinese immigrants in Tibet. The recent demonstrations all over Tibet calling his return clearly show their respect towards the Dalai Lama and anger at the Chinese occupation of Tibet. Tibetans still continue to cross the snow covered high passes into India and Nepal to escape Chinese oppression. A nun last year was shot dead while fleeing and several teen agers arrested by the Chinese border security on Nangpala pass. It was captured on video. Tibet issue is significant to China as exposed soon after the demonstrations in Tibet and out cry leading up to the Olympics. China can solve this problem while the Dalai Lama is alive and willing to negotiate with the Chinese government.
To generalyufeei: The Dalai Lama has for decades clearly stated that he is negotiating for a genuine autonomy and not a complete independence.
He has never preached racial segregation. He has shown concerned at the massive influx of Chinese population into Tibet because of the danger it puts the Tibetans, now the minority in preserving its culture and religion. He infact has large Chinese sympathizers. He wishes the Chinese brothers and sisters well and has even taken unpopular stand within the exile Tibetan community for fully supporting the Beijing Olympics.

sxie2004 Author Profile Page:

Mr. Wang is indeed a deeper thinker on Tibetan issues. Unfortunately, His words are selectively presented in the Western Media.

Mr. Wang correctly predict, long time ago, that Dalai will not be able to come back to China. He pointed out that dalai is in deep delusions, thanks to western politicians and activities. Dalai thinks his "giving up independence" is a big deal so he can ask anything he wants, such as "greater Tibet", something not even exists for thousand years. The negotiation will not work, unless Dalai comes to his sense. Unfortunately, he is kidnapped by western politicians and activities deeply.

thmak Author Profile Page:

To Pomfret: Dalai Lama's sect of religion is not the only religion that the Tibetan believe in and he is not the only religious leader. Only the West thugs and goons appoint him to that supreme position in order to destabilize China. The majority of his followers have followed him to India and Nepal. The sons and daughters, grandsons and granddaughters of those left behind don't follow him any more. His leftover followers have not in contact with him for 50+ years and their memory of him fade fast. When he left Tibet, he was in his twenties, so most of his followers older than that had passed away by the time Dalai dies. His leftover contempories had no time to establish any sort of reverance of him and,under China religious education, will certainly dump Dalai Lama. If Dalai passes away, China is adequately prepared for any outcomes. So your predicted uprising will not be significant in China but may be India and Nepal, causing backlashes from those countries. I hope you understand.

gavin1 Author Profile Page:

"Wang is a writer and probably the deepest thinking Chinese scholar on Tibetan issues"

---------------------------------

This is absurd. Wang is the most famous apologist on Tibet issue inside of China. Deep thinking? Who are you kidding?

generalyuefei Author Profile Page:

That is the reason we can't let Dalai come back.
One day he's happy, so he want peace;
another day he's mad, he wants independent, and those people don't worship him should ever be allowed to be in Tibet.

He wants to be god of Tibet, and king of China.
Not only that he preaches racial segregation in China (Tibetan and other ethnic Chinese should be separated), btwn Tibetan and other ethnic Chinese, not only that he wants to rule Tibet, not allow any other Tibetan to rule and represent, but China government always states Tibetan rule Tibet, not Dalai. No any religious group should rule any part of China, as US' Church and States separation system.

That's is reason China will not allow him to be back, even other Dalai or next Dalai would not agree with him.

It is unconstitutional whether to US or China constitution to let suck religious group to ruin the nation and people.

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