Comments (134)

What is the stander of "democracy" in Taiwan?
People in Taiwan are proud that they are a democracy country, and why they elected this type of person became a president for 2 terms? Why there are nothing they can do when Abian was cought that he has a lot of money oversea? Why there are still a lot of supporters to support him now and trust his lie?
SHAME ON TAIWAN......................

It is very fortunate that we have a US friendly and China realist 'Ma' as president of Taiwan, if Frank was president these charges will either still be covered up or forcefully uncovered creating embarrassment and thus weakening the government and limiting further Taiwan's lack of dialog and necessary exchange with China. However, I do not want to undermine the DPP's furtherance of democracy and hope that Ma keeps to his word and cleans up corruption especially in upper government. Taiwan may be strong in freedom of speech but it needs reform when it comes to corruption. Taiwan being a strong democracy free of corruption is the best weapon against instability along the Strait. God-bless and keep up the hard work Taiwan :)

In Taiwan, "Eighty-five percent of Hoklo and Hakka people have Aboriginal ancestry, according to a study on the DNA of non-Aboriginal ethnic Taiwanese conducted by Mackay Memorial Hospital's transfusion medical research.

Those 85 percent have strains from both plains and mountain Aboriginal tribes.

Lin said Hoklo and Hakka DNA was diverse. She said the tests showed that more than 90 percent of Hoklo and Hakka have at least some Vietnamese ancestry.

Lin said genealogical analyses had shown Vietnamese are genetically more similar to Southeast Asians than northern Han."

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2007/11/21/2003388825

Original Taiwanese are the aborigines!

to Taiwanese...

Do not get mixed up the dialect with the nationality....

Taiwan is not a nation..

it's an island.

Taiwanese is not a dialect..

it is really Fujienese, or Minnan dialect.

Wake up and know the truth...

Even people in Taiwan do not have a Taiwanese passport..

it is the ROC passport that they carry.

ROC is the nationality for Taiwan.

Please get educated with the History of Taiwan...

How do you identify someone who came from Mainland to Taiwan within the last 60 years?

How do you identify those who came to Taiwan within 200 years to 60 years ago?

And how do you identify those of Kujia ancestry and Minnan ancestry?

I know people who get kicked out of Taxis because they couldn't speak your 'Taiwanese', or Minnan dialect.

I know business who couldn't get deals done because they couldn't speak your 'Taiwanese', or Minnan dialect.

And I know friends became enemies because they couldn't speak your 'Taiwanese', or Minnan dialect.

Why is a dialect disecting a beautiful island apart?

This is why 'Taiwanese' is the main culprit that diverts the island from prosperity, from hope, and from cohesivenss, togetherness, as a unit.

YOU MUST STOP USING THAT TERM BECAUSE IT IS A KNIFE THAT CUTS APART THE FRIENDSHIP, FAMILIES, AND A NATION...

'TAIWANESE' IS THE ROOT OF ALL POISEN FOR TAIWAN... ROC...

U.S. to sell anti-ship missiles to Taiwan

"Aug 27 (Reuters) - The United States will sell anti-ship missiles to Taiwan in a $90 million deal, ending what analysts said had been an arms sale freeze designed to ease tension between Beijing and Taipei.

Taiwan will buy 60 Harpoon Air Launch missiles made by McDonnell Douglas Corp., the U.S. Department of Defense said. The surface-skimming missiles can sink ocean-going warships."

http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=USTP4816220080827

To Freeman Taiwan:

There is Taiwanese!!!

I can change your words to show how ridiculous your psot would become...

-------------------

There is no American!!!

Period....

America is the name of the part of continent. The fact people born on the part of continent doesn't make them American...

They are British....

Period...

The fact that your ancestors speak English does not make you a American...

Period...

And American English is just a name for English...

Period...

Stop fooling yourself by saying you are American..

You are British.... Your ancestors came from England couple hundreds years ago. They didn't speak American English. They spoke British!

Period!

--------------------------

Where your ancestors came from is not the standard to judge who you are. Hope you understand that.

you foreigners in Taiwan can see it, clearly..

Taiwan used to be a beautiful island with warm people, surrounded by prosperity and hope..

Since Li and Chen took the office... the island is filled with hatred and dismay....

people are torn apart from their ancestry, belief, and hopes...

people who spoke Fujienese look down at those who can't....

You really can't do much business in Taiwan unless you speak Fujienese..

And that is the harsh reality.

Period.

So what they can only speak one dialect of Chinese..... And yet, they don't think themselves as Chinese?

How ridiculous and narrow minded...

There is no Taiwanese!!!

Period....

Taiwan is the name of the island. The fact people born on the island doesn't make them Taiwanese...

We are Chinese....

Period...

The fact that your ancestors speak Fujienese does not make you a Taiwanese...

Period...

There are hundreds of dialects for Chinese. Fujienese is just one of them. There are Kujia, Cantonese, Szechuan, Shanghainese, Shandongese, and Mandarin... so on..

And Taiwanese is just a name for Fujienese...

Period...

Stop fooling yourself by saying you are Taiwanese..

You are Chinese.... Your ancestors came from China couple hundreds years ago. They didn't speak Taiwanese. They spoke Fujienese!

Period!

To Truth...

You Can't even Handle the truth!

During the 2 financing reforms, many bigger, gov owned financing institutioins were gobbled up by smaller companies who supported abian.

Guess who were the hands that pushed the mergers? And guess who walked away with millions $ of commissions?

Many prominent offices in the gov were 'bought off' by people who are either relatives of abian or his supporters. More ridiculously, most of these new officers have just high school degrees.

Guess who were the chief that forced these new appointments? And guess who walked with millions $ of commissions?

And...

The former chief officers at the Bureau of Investigation and diplomats to Swiss were personal friends of abian. They not only aided the corruption by opening the holes, they also suppressed the investigation by the Swiss in 2006, Jan 2008, and July 2008.

And guess who patted these people for not telling the scandulous funds and wirings so he can kept telling people that, LOVE TAIWAN IS TO KEEP THE MONEY ON THE ISLAND!' and promises that he would never do so?

And you call yourself 'Truth'?

How ironic!

Dear Mr. President Bush,
I believe many people are watching what would you act on this case.
Please, Tell the people in Taiwan "What is the TRUE"

Would anyone want to talk about a vision for Taiwan - Mainland relationship? Mr. Chen story will be over sooner or later. The big question is what will eventually happen to Taiwan and Mainland. I'd like to know native Taiwan people's opinions.
It's said that there is a bridge planned between Kinmen and Xiamen. http://blog.chinationreport.com/2008/08/25/mainland-to-building-a-bridge-linking-taiwan-to-mainland-china/

Null: I'm not sure if you are just a cynic, but perhaps you are right that CSB will get away with this in the end. The people or the judicial system of Taiwan may not be able to get him, but to this I want to quote Steven Spielberg's "Jurassic Park": "Life will find a way". CSB will get his just desserts someday.

Regardless if there isn't sufficient anti-corruption legislation in place in Taiwan or how even more corrupt the KMT were/are, nobody put a gun to CSB's head to wire the money overseas.

And I have to agree with you on one thing: slogans and ideology are not the means to govern. I have noted the irony in CSB and the DPP's relentless attacks on China, when in fact they are even more skillfull than the communists when manipulating the masses with their nationalism and racism. Any campaign based on divisiveness and hatred will fall in the end. It's time that we wake up to this.

full,

you don't get my point yet though almost. regardless the final findings on the money trace oversea, it would not say anything that abian or his family did anything wrong! the root of this is that there is no way for anyone to figure out it is for campaign money or that for private.

for swiss to confiscate the money, gov has to provide ample evidence to say it is dirty money. but abian has confessed already that that is campaign money for his party. we can ask why he needs to funnel it out to swiss bank, but it is irrelevant.

for abian's son and inlaws to be sued, abian has to be nailed down first. without it, how could you blame them?

the whole case is a want

Null:
money trace might NOT be enough to catch abian. the money is from anonymous donors abian solicited. even though those donors came out to explain, there is no proof that abian did anything wrong. yes, leg. 沈富雄 saw one of incident when a businessman gave the money to abian and his wife. but how could you prove that abian and his family uses the money? reading from reports by those who admitted accepting cash from abian during election, you can see that all money transactions are cash only!

=====

You are right that all the transactions, including donations by political supporters, are cash only, but they are in New Taiwan Dollars cash only, and their amount cannot be equal to several million U.S. dollars.

The only question is how the money went into Chen's daughter-in-law, Ms. Huang's Swiss bank account. She needs to show the record to prove the innocence of her in-laws. If she does not show up nor does not provide the records, Taipei can contact the related banks in Switzerland, Singapore and the U.S. to get them. At that time we might see more.

Drug dealers in the U.S. have been using cash for money laundering for years. Chen and Wu are smart to redirect their money outside Taiwan so prosecutors in Taiwan cannot easily trace the fund. However, this also means they cannot erase the trace of the money outside Taiwan.

Let's see.

full,

money trace might NOT be enough to catch abian. the money is from anonymous donors abian solicited. even though those donors came out to explain, there is no proof that abian did anything wrong. yes, leg. 沈富雄 saw one of incident when a businessman gave the money to abian and his wife. but how could you prove that abian and his family uses the money? reading from reports by those who admitted accepting cash from abian during election, you can see that all money transactions are cash only!

yes swiss bank can inquire the source of the money in abian's account, but now after the explanation, i don't think swiss bank can do anything about it. can gov ask for return of the money? i don't think so unless they can show the money is dirty money.

don't underestimate abian. he is lawyer in profession and cunning politician. i am amazed by his ability to suck in all the air in taiwan, even after his rules.

CHEN IS THE WORST PRESIDENT THAT THIS ISLAND OF 23 MILLION PEOPLE HAS EVER ELECTED IN ITS POLITICAL PROCESS. IT IS TIME TO SHOW THE PEOPLE THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH. HE NEEDS TO BE IN JAIL.

If this is what taiwan's demoncratic politcs is - so dirty !
They can forget about "taiwan independence" as it will soon defeat itself and rotten from within.

We are saddened from all these happening in tainwan as we had some hope from DPP's new government to clean up the mess by KMT,instead thet are much worse off !!!

Null said:
so far, i have yet heard or read or noticed any evidence that abian "stole" the money for himself. from judicial point of view, it is hard to prove it in this case. yes abian can not earn that amount of money, but he is the biggest money maker for his party when election comes. further there are no records on who donated what? or no one even know the total amount of the money he got since he stepped into politics.

====

In fact, the biggest hole in Chen's comment is he said his wife wired the money out of Taiwan, which was leftover from micellaenous elections Chen has participated in, but there was no wiring record found for such a big amount of money, so far.

So as a witness, Chen's wife can tell the authorities when she or her friends wired the money, and the authorities can put some bankers in jail if they destroyed the record. Whether these bankers are willing to turn against Chen and Chen's wife is another story.

On the other hand, if the authority can find on a certain date, a businessman in Singapore or the U.S. wired certain amount of money into Chen's daughter-in-law's Swiss account, do you think that's interesting enough?

So far few people in Taiwan believe Chen "stole" the money. Many just believe he took briberies from businessmen, and the briberies arrived in his accounts from outside of Taiwan.

global citizen,

i reckon you might come from taiwan.

abian is one of you. for good or bad, he is one of you. you shall not be proud or shame of him, because whatever he did it is the same as that you did it. you can argue that you are different. but i would ask: can you guarantee that you would not do it?

democracy is not a panacea which will root out every bad element. take an example on mainland. they introduced the communism 50 years because they thought it the best for china and fight an internal struggle ideologically until mid-1970, and then realized that ideology can not feed people and stale the development. if you read more, you would see that when communist grabbed the power, just take a look at them: young, inspiring, and full of energy to try to do the best for the country. the same thing on democracy in taiwan. but eventually, people have to face reality: slogan and ideology are not the means to govern.

be prepared another storm and maybe in your and my life time we might never see a bright future for taiwan until the next generation can have some fresh ideas and make quantum leap to the next level. cross the fingers...

global citizen,

so far, i have yet heard or read or noticed any evidence that abian "stole" the money for himself. from judicial point of view, it is hard to prove it in this case. yes abian can not earn that amount of money, but he is the biggest money maker for his party when election comes. further there are no records on who donated what? or no one even know the total amount of the money he got since he stepped into politics.

abian also brought out a valid point: the system created this mess. i am surprised that no one listened to his comment and i think he mentioned this point many times previously in other various cases against him. well, it is true that when he was still in reign, though he complained, he did not do anything to improve it. and i failed to see any effort in this direction from new government either.

so if the rules ok it, then i don't think one can blame abian anything.

Null: Thank goodness you are not the president of Taiwan, or of any other country for that matter. Please do not consider running for political office, ever.

Truth: No, no, no, YOU need to understand the current judicial---make that political system in Taiwan (prodigy of CSB for the last 8 years) is biased towards Chen (notice I didn't say DPP, but Chen). I can cite one example after another: the fact that the Swiss authorities had notified their Taiwanese counterpart at least a month before the case was revealed, or the investigative units suppressing the case from surfacing..... Santa Chen sure had a lot of helpers!

Anti-corruption has nothing to do with democracy! Taiwan was very clean in 1970's and there was no presidential election yet!

Taiwanese now realise how costly it is to pursue democracy like a triple jump. Some things are just no short cuts!

I really hope China will improve their political justice, but carefully looking at those painful examples like Philipine, South Korea, and Taiwan now! There are all corruptions after democracy!

Now another issue is worth thinking : Asian societies probably are just very different from Western countries. They just can't copy western experience! There must be something better for Asia! I am not saying democracy isn't good for Asia, but just Do Not blindly pursuing democracy like this!

P.s. I am from Taiwan.

Dear Mr.President Bush.
You said you would protect Taiwan people once being attacked by China,
Now , You owe people in Taiwan what is the truth about CHEN and his family

well, abian might stash the money, but it is hard to convince that he did it for himself. take a look at their political system, specially campaign system. without money, one can not simply be elected. abian is a smart guy who realized that money is everything and he can get the money no one else in the party can do. so were i him, i would keep the money for raining day as well. if needed, he would spend the money to those candidates who would follow his doctrine. so what is wrong about that?

so the corruption in a democratic system is even better than that in china. wow, revealing

Being a foreigner, and living in Taiwan since 1988, I've stood on the sidelines watching democracy evolve in Taiwan. It was fascinating seeing the first elections, and how people were giddy with their first experience of voting. And for better or worse they chose Chen.

What's interesting now 20 years later, are all the Taiwanese living in China who are looking over at Taiwan, and wondering if that freedom to elect really improved their country.

All this makes excellent fodder for Beijing to argue "Look what democracy has done for Taiwan."

I believe Ma's role now is doubly important as Taiwan's credibility is at peril just as China's credibility has vastly improved.

It will be interesting to see how the next US administration handles this still very sensitive issue.

alex, you raised a very important point that no-1 has since picked up on: while people are free to speculate at the risk of defamation lawsuits, a properly functioning judicial system recognizes the defendent "innocent until proven guilty". of course an executive in power can stall an investigation, but eventually may face charges. speculation is speculation and evidence is evidence, "innocent til proven guilty".
as for the beijing-taipei issue, one obvious advantage i see for taiwan is that people voted chen out of office and he'll now face charges. what are the chances of that happening in beijing?

1. People who assist to cover up now are living like the ants on the hot tin pen.
2. What a fool if a person does not know where about a big sum of his whole life saving was deposited into?
3. A class act to end all this should be just saying “I was solely responsible for this mistake; nobody else to blame but just myself.”; a general does not blame on foot soldiers when his war was lost.

To TRUTH:

It's people like you who need to know the new truth of democracy in Taiwan.

The head of one of the intelligence organization, Investigation Bureau, tried to stop the case and he successed for several months and let Chen family to hide money. You think legal system is biased toward KMT?

Chen also classified all documents needed by court as national security to keep ythem from being used in court. This is water-gate II.

In a democracy, people are suppose to be the boss. If you really want to be the boss, then act like one. Just exactly what is the reason you want to protect Chen? Do you love him adore him, or admire him? Or is he your son or father?

You need to know that you are the boss and your employee is suspected of stealing your money. But you are saying: "No, no, no. My other employees cheated on me before too. Don't arrest this one. I adore him, I worship him, I love him"

In a democracy, you have to act like a citizen in a democracy. Stop that self-victimization game.

The DPP says Chen Shui-bian's dirty money fiasco was an individual case. Actually, the whole DPP has turned a blind eye on his and his family's corrupt practices all these years. Many of them are accomplices. Now they are in a silly, embarassing situation. In recent weeks, the party's leaders have adopted the ostrich posture--their heads buried deep under the sand. Wake up before it's too late!

Let justice reveal and seize the present corruption issue ,and(Taiwan ppl) not assume unconstructive speculations which is only to cause more turmoil and misleading...As the old chinese saying "as the same root , why fight as fruit?"
A fact that must be clear to our foreign friends: WE HAVE NOT HAVE LAUNDERING AS A CULTURE,THIS IS A INDIVIDUAL CASE!We are disappointed and heartbroken by Chen, but not discouraged and trully optimistic that democracy will prosper and mature!

Mr. Chen degrades himself from "son of Taiwan" to "shame of Taiwan" and his lie after lie makes me doubt if he has any moral at all.
Question is, why his supporters blatantly abuse the democracy. Is it hatred, self-righteous, or simply ignorance? Anyway, let the jury make the decision.

Also you need to understand Taiwan's Justice System is always biased for leaning to KMT side. Unlike USA system, Taiwan's Justice System (e.g., judges) are not elected by the people directly. They have been mainly appointed by the KMT government during 1945-2000 time period. Therefore, Taiwan's Justice System always seems to serve the (KMT) government instead of the people (as it should be). Therefore, it is expected CSB's trial will not be a fair one (since KMT hates CSB A LOT). Watch for the court debates, if Ma administration does allow it to be broadcast (which I doubt).

Your have to understand this issue has been embedded in Taiwan for a long time. Taiwan's laws did not enforce what the candidates should do for the left-over of election donation fund. However, CSB made mistakes for not giving all these money out.

Historically, KMT people did even worse for stealing billions of tax-payer's money into their Switzerland accounts during the last 60 years. Therefore, in order to clean up the system, Swiss banks should disclose ALL accounts own by the people in Taiwan.

I personally believe this whole process is a set-up to break up the anti-KMT movement. The Ma administration is not doing well, thus they needs some diversion to swing away the media's attention on the poor government performance.

This is one excellent article and I would like to see your post cover more of this news in the future. Not only this promotes World to understand Taiwan-China politic climate but it also invigorate Chinese to think.

Event is sad and dirty in the transition from close to openness society, from authoritarian to democracy. Chen was caught in between this transition. I hope this be the last corruption we see in Taiwan.

If US government can go after money belongs to Al-Qauda and North Korea, why can't they help Taiwan hunt down money stolen by Chen's family?

中國傳統教導我們原諒無心之錯,但是扁珍一家人這八年來的貪污風雨多到數不清的地步. 明知錯而硬為,證據逐漸浮現在桌上還嘴硬的推卸責任與否認 這就是我們無法接受與原諒的理由.

當年阿扁利用吳淑珍被車撞硬說是被國民黨陰謀謀殺,爭取同情票成功. 每當他面對問題,就拿吳淑珍來打悲情牌. 看樣子今天他們又會再次同使同樣的技倆. 今天台灣需要公正不阿的包青天使用虎頭鍘來重建台灣法治.

If Taiwanese people let Bien, his wife and his family get away this time, then I do not see light for Taiwan to revive its strengths in the future.

Question is: How much can Taiwanese people tolerate different version of explanations from Bien, his wife and her relatives about how much money Bien's wife wired abroad through illegal money transfer channels by using his relatives. If these wires they sent abroad are legal money (white money), then why wired the money to other person's name? What do they try to hide? If his son and daughter-in-laws are innocent, then why bother to hide in the States?

Bien's "I do not know how my wife manage the money" just like 'read my lips' tactic that George Bush Sr. used many years ago. The only difference is Bush Sr. did not push the blame to his wife or tell the world, ‘ask my wife, I know nothing'.

Democracy can only stay long within the legal framework, but not above the Laws. Do we need to spend a lot effort to understand how power corrupted the legal system and practices in Taiwan in the last 8 years? The answer is clearly 'NO'.

Bien and his family have not only disgrace his entire family (including relatives in laws), they are the shame of Taiwan today that we can not tolerate and accept.

Exactly, let's not lose focus here. As AC_Dropout mentioned earlier, the latest (and alleged, stressed by the die-hard Chen supporters) illegal activity of Chen is just one of a string of his/his family's infractions.

Yet somehow it seems like Chen will get away with it once again. How is this possible? Hey, the answer is simple! Push your half-crazed daughter in front of the TV cameras, shift the blame to other corrupt politicians and cry conspiracy of the "mainland Chinese descendants" to destroy the "legitimate Taiwanese", then voila! everything will be fine.

You won't have to go to jail and you can keep the $20+ million (and more). Never mind that you've effectively destroyed the harmony of the Taiwanese society and that you've contributed to one of the darkest moments in Taiwanese history.

Just because there are no laws stipulating that one cannot wire funds overseas, it does not make Chen's actions acceptable. This is the man who proclaimed loudly how much he loved Taiwan and how he was a fighter to better the economic conditions of Taiwan. Well, wiring over 20 million USD to Switzerland is not doing Taiwan any good. Chen is a hypocrite and it's amazing that are still people in Taiwan who don't see through his lies. Stop bashing the KMT and start looking into yourselves and the state the DPP is in!

Here, here! I agree that what's happening in Taiwan is a good sign that the democracy is maturing somehow. Nevertheless, since Chen's cronies have been helping to cover up the crimes and that over the past 7 months important documents might had been shredded, I doubt how much justice can be done. It is said that a new anti-corruption law similar to that in Singapore and Hong Kong is now underway, this is probably a late-better-than-nothing consolation prize if the outcome of the Chen trials (if any) turned out to be disappointing again.

What happened in Taiwan is actually not that bad for Taiwan. Why? Because things like that can only happen in a free society. Because the society is free, people in power have to be more careful about their behavior; otherwise, they will be in deep trouble like Bian does now. And because the country is free, everybody can be treated equally. That means a former president is simply a civilian like you and me who needs to abide by the law.

Nice article with short but sharp points.

I don't have much to comment.
But Chen Shui-bian really sucks!
He knows well laws and he's a tricky lawyer.
I believe he knows how to escape from the justice no matter what Taiwanese people have to pay for.

It's sad, but true ....

I am so upset about my life now, because the former President Chen did not lead Taiwan forward for eight years. Taiwan was idle running; the economic turns down and people were hopeless because their lives were going to worse and worse. Many families bankrupt and parents chose to suicide with their children. I am so upset about my life now, because Chen and his political party D.P.P. do nothing but only tear the relationships between natural Taiwanese and second generation of immigrant Chinese. They do not love Taiwan or Taiwanese even they say they do. They dug and stole Taiwanese’s money to their pockets and let national treasury empty. They still refuse to admit their faults and even want national political protection. On the other hand, they shirk their responsibilities and shift the blames onto current President Ma. Before, I was a happy salary employee; I could offer my life comfortable because the salary and bonus were good. Eight years passed, my life is not getting better and better. And I never realize that now I have to tell my children “Our life is hard for us now, Mom does not have enough money to make ends meet...” It is not only my story, but our Mom – Taiwan’s story.

Chen claimed the money came from income as a lawyer, investment, his wife's dot, and campaign funds. So far, there is no evidence to prove former President Chen's money came from corruption. There is no law to forbid people in Taiwan, including government officers, to wire money to other coumtries. Also, there was no law before Chen last campaign to ristrict the campaign fund. Therefore, it is still a question mark about "dirty money". Chen did not disclose his assests during his persidency. No doubt Chen loses his political credit. Many of his support people are disappointed. However, it is only ethical and emotional. The attorneies have not found any evidence though the press misleads to "money laundry".
Also, as a Taiwanese, I have to clear one concept about "Taiwanese". Taiwanese means people having Taiwan nationality, no matter you are "Ho-LoK", "Hakka", aboriginal, or "new resident, moved to Taiwan in 1949". Most peple in Taiwan think themselves as a Taiwanese. Only few think themselves as "Taiwanese-Chinese" or "Chinese". Most of them are new residents and their children.

As a Chinese-American living in Taiwan for over three years, I have to admit that people in Taiwan are among the most racist group I ever encounted. The sad fact is that so many self-proclaimed Taiwanese are extremely friendly to foreigner, but have nasty attitude against those "mainland Chinese lookalike". People on this tiny island can be ignorance sometime by insisting they are not Chinese, rather Taiwanese. It just like some Hong Kongers making invalid claim that Cantonese is not Chinese. I think it is perfectly fine for people in Taiwan to stick their hands in the sand and never look beyond the island. However, keep it to yourself, I am so tire of all the offensive comments against other Chinese people!

I think people don't understand in Taiwan the term Taiwanese refer to a subgroup of Han Chinese called the Hoklo group or those that have been Hoklo-fied.

The other groups in Taiwan are not usually refered as Taiwanese. Groups such as Hakka (also Han Chinese) and aboriginal are not called Taiwanese in Taiwan.

The whole concept is quite "racist" by western standards.

Saying Taiwan is for Taiwanese is akin to saying America is for White Americans.

Also those polling figures cited by VW is incorrect. The vast majority of people in Taiwan see themselves as Taiwanese-Chinese. Thus one could also state only a small minority of people in Taiwan answered the poll as exclusively Taiwanese.

In addition over 1 million ROC citizens live and work in the PRC on a permenant basis now. So this idea that the Hoklo-Han (i.e. Taiwanese) are not Chinese is somewhat convulted.

Chen is a lair and a thief, during his 8 years as president, Taiwan is worsen than ever before, when we were happy to see that Lee(another corrupted President prior to Chan) was gone. I hope US government could deported Chan's son and daughter-in-law, and freeze up their assets and accounts in the US.

Some said that "White people are devils"...

Maybe I was not clear on my last post. The kids are wanting my attention. By the word Chination I do not mean a new country, but a cybernation of Chinese with common interests, roots and culture. Imagine how much good we can do together, by spanning a bridge between East and West, us and them, past and future, not just for the Chinese, but for all peoples of the world?
http://blog.chinationreport.com/2008/08/19/china-and-the-west-revisited-from-jpost/

Hi VW,
I have visited Taiwan a few times and have a lot of friends from Taiwan... Many of them mainlanders but some are also native Taiwanese. I used to live in Xiamen and know perfectly that even within mainland, many Xiamen (Amoi) people consider themselves different from Northerners. I love the way Taiwanese and Amoi people drink tea (lin dei). It is a beautiful culture - making me sentimental now. By the way, you know that the English word 'tea' comes from Ming-Nan dialect (dei) while Arabic, Russian and many other languages use the word 'Cha' which is Chinese mandarin for tea.
Sorry to be distracted... What I want to say is that I perfectly understand the sentiments of Taiwanese and Chinese. Today I chatted with my Tai-Chinese friend again. She is 10 times more nationalistic about China, I mean China, than I am! She has been sending her children to China to learn more about China ever since they were kids. She is more proud than I am to be Chinese...
I must say, there are all kinds of people, all kinds of sentiments. Look, East Germany and West Germany are back to Germany again. China and Japan are even talking towards closer ties. There is NO way that Taiwan will become independent. The stakes are just too high for all people in that region, whether Chinese, Taiwanese, Shanghainess, Hongkongess...
Cheers for a Chination - A Chinese Nation without Borders!
http://www.chinationreport.com/#EditorsChoice

If China has democracy, the first thing a candidate has to do in a campaign, is to promise that Taiwan will be taken back.

* VOTE FOR ZHANG! LET ZHANG TAKE BACK TAIWAN!

* VOTE FOR LEE! LET LEE TAKE BACK TAIWAN!

* VOTE FOR WANG! LET WANG TAKE BACK TAIWAN!

Now, how about a little more democracy in China, my dear friends?

I sleep much better if China has NO democracy.

It has been proven by historical facts that the so-called Taiwanese are incapable of governing themselves. The 12 years under Lee Tun-Hui (KMT, 1988-2000) ended up in shameful corruptions and the rage of the public that led to Chen's take-over (DPP, 2000-2008). Now Chen's even worse days are over. Taiwan has become polarized and most people are poorer.

Whatever Chen does, there are lowly educated and lowly employed people who would support him because he's Taiwanese. Whenever things go wrong, Chen resorts to some sort of anti-China racism. His supports would always follow. They've been using the same dirty tricks for twenty long years. Their supporters never learn. They do not bother to learn. After all, a great majority of Chen's supporters are very likely to be old, uneducated and living in rural areas. They pay little or none taxes. They discriminate Chinese people. They think that people in China are low lives (regularly advertised by DPP politicians).

People in Taipei abandoned Chen after his unsuccessful term of mayor in he 1990s. They learned that Chen was neither capable nor trustworthy. Chen's support fell sharply during his two unpopular presidential terms in most urban areas. However, in 2004, he played some dirty tricks to motivate his die-hard supporters to stole the election (some believed that he rigged the election and used the motivation to make the unnatural reversal justifiable). However, as long as there are uneducable, unreasonable and irresponsible rural voters who pay no taxes (they receive much government subsidies), there will be more Chens to come.

to Chinationreport:

If you had spent the same amount of the time in Taiwan as you did in the west and China, you would not have been surprised by the answer from your coworker, "Wen".

Being Taiwanese does not mean being anti or pro china. It's just as simple as that we are citizens of Taiwan (Taiwanese) not citizens of China/PRC (Chinese). I am proud of Chinese culture and tradition I grew up with and have no problem accepting Taiwan was part of China before. However, after more than 60 year separation between Taiwan and China, it's really hard for most people in Taiwan see themselves as Chinese. You can see that from the recent poll in Taiwan that more than 70% of people see themselves as Taiwanese other than Chinese.

I know it's hard for people from China to understand why people in Taiwan don't see themselves Chinese while they speak Chinese, eat Chinese food and celebrate Chinese tradition. (Most of my friends from China have asked me this question.) My answer is always that "why do I have to be Chinese to speak Chinese, eat Chinese food and celebrate Chinese traditions?" I can be a happy Taiwanese celebrating Chinese holidays with my Chinese friends.

Taiwan is a sovereign and independent nation. It has been for decades and will continue to be. Just accept it China and chinese people and the world will be a happier and peaceful place.

There is no perfect crime, even for the president. Taiwanese paid a hugh price to elect Chan as their leader for two terms but justice will eventually prevail. Assuming the case is handled properly by the judicial system, democracy in Taiwan will get stronger after all the dust is settled; it will serve as a fine example for mainland China.

M...it is obvious that you don't love Taiwan, and you are a friend of China.

lol...that's an excuse from DPP supporters when they blame any anti-Bian people. So, from the same logic, you don't love Taiwan. XD

Is Taiwan part of China? It all depends on who you talk to.

At this time, no, because if you want to go to Taiwan, you need to get a visa from the Republic of China, not from Chinese Consulate. That's simple. But for the future of Taiwan and for people in Taiwan, that's a different story.

People in Taiwan were from China. Although some disagree and went so far as to prove the people in Taiwan have gone through some gene mutation so they are not Chinese any more. Yet, the best location for Taiwanese to find any rare blood matching is in mainland China. That says all. Taiwanese are Chinese. They are just not citizens of People's Republic and don't want to either, at least for now.

For that same reason, I believe democracy will take root in China one day. We are the same people with the same selfishness, same greed, same dream, and same fear. Bao Gong (Bao Blue Sky), the anti-corruption story is as popular in Taiwan as in China. We all hate corruptions to guts.

30 years ago, no one can dream of the economic miracles in mainland now. But now I dare to dream one day, mainland China will have the same, not so mature, democracy in Taiwan, or even better (a little stretched). Communist Party may one day lose their power like KMT in Taiwan, and then reclaim power peacefully again with reformed organization(if you say that too loud in China now, you go to jail). The same 30 years ago, KMT party bosses acted completely different from what they do now. All politicians are just like kids. You have to kick them to make them behave.

Will China become a democracy one day? absolutely. You can't stop it. Without democracy, some form of anti-corruption movements will lead the people to overthrough the corrupted Chinese Communist government and then followed by more choas and killings and corruptions. The real and the only way for the Chinese Communist Party to last long is through democracy.

A better form of democracy is somewhere between the West and China. I just watched Lou Dobbs on CNN ranting about high energy prices and the do-nothing Congress. Few people realize that the politicians are only as good as their constituency. Polls showed that over 60% of Americans favor offshore drilling for oil and gas, yet only 40% of them think that it will help bring down energy prices. At the same time even oil tycoons like T Boone Pickens know that offshore drilling won't help. This is the reality that American politicians have to face. They cannot tell their voters "You are completely irrational. Why do you support offshore drilling if you do not believe it will help ease energy prices?" What they must do instead is to pander to such irrational sentiments. Whenever a political candidate tells the voters to conserve as part of the solution, he gets slammed for being "elitist", "insensitive" and "out of touch" by the media. Given the pathetically little knowledge about the government's operation, economy, and world affairs, the masses rely almost solely on the corporate media for information. So people like Lou Dobbs go on TV feeding the public what they like to hear, that it's the government who is totally responsible for their problems. Many Americans are still driving their 3-ton SUVs around while they are ranting about $4 gas, as if the government should somehow be able to extract another 50% more oil from some conveniently located oil fields that will bring prices back down to $1 so they can keep driving their oversize gas guzzler.

It is too late for the USA to have any meaningful political reform because Americans are simply too complacent. It is up to China to learn from the mistakes made by herself and others and build a better system for humanity.

Finally, I hate to bring this up, but Taiwan and South Korea's industrialization were begun during the period of Japanese colonization. Does this mean colonialism is the best form of government for developing countries?
_______________________________

Actually the rise of the mini-Tiger economies were not really derived from Japanese colonialism. They are reflective of the land reform and personal ownership shortly after WWII.

I think Jiaming has a point about those with the education and skill sets to pursue politics at a high level. Does it benefit these individual with the abililty to run a country to pander to the lowest common denominator in that country? Just like does it make sense for a rocket scientist to need to convince the guy at the corner bar to vote for his research grant?

The flaw of democracy as it stands is that even through it gives the layman an illusion of control over the political process of their State, it is so dependent on marketing to promote a candidate, that it becomes as vapid as selecting soft drinks.

Even using very simple polling results of benchmarks such as economic growth and satisfication with the government, it would seem the PRC is succeeding where the USA is not.

As for Taiwan, it would seem those that believe the DPP stood for democracy and Taiwan Independence are prime example of how democracy has failed them. For there is no consequences in a democracy for a political leader to lie to them for their support. So they are victims of their own leaders. Blinded by the racism and KMT hate their party promoted. It is almost too ironic to put into words.

The KMT created the democracy that exist in Taiwan and obviously earned to the opportunity to lead Taiwan again. Hopefully under the KMT, Taiwan will go through another economic miracle, despite the economic meltdown the democratic US has spread worldwide.

Raoul,

Of course the neocon movement was lead by highly educated people, as any political movement should be. That is exactly my point. It was the gullible, poor and uneducated who supported those neocons and put them in power. The educated elites were strongly opposed to the neocons all along as the polls had shown.

As I said, I do feel that the US was steered into a very wrong course by Bush/Cheney. This is an opinion shared by an overwhelming majority of Americans today, although most of the undereducated people did not agree with it back in 2000 and 2004, when it mattered. It is my personal opinion and the personal opinions of millions of others. A political election is about selecting the leaders based on the collective opinions of individual voters. But I strongly feel, and suspect that many educated Americans agree, that the undereducated are too easily manipulated to be empowered with such an important duty as to select the country's leaders.

Anyway, I will not "degrade" you any further with my ideas and comments. You should debate with only those who do not cause you such emotional distress.

Jiaming,

I'm sorry, but your vision is not just based on a highly skewed and distorted selection of evidence, but is indeed "degrading" -- emotion is a proper response, in my opinion.

Jiaming,

The issue is not whether I or you think the poor in the US made the right decision voting for Bush; each individual has the right to make his/her own decision. You seem to believe that because you think something is "right" (i.e., your personal opinion), it is necessarily the best thing for everyone. Do you see the problem with this? Who says Obama is right? Who says McCain is wrong? Who do you know YOU are right?

btw: the neocon movement in the US was led by highly education, highly intelligent individuals. Yet their movement has led to disastrous consequences. Don't you agree?

More importantly, what is the purpose of political life? To ensure economic growth? To allow people to make decisions together? Something else?

Finally, I hate to bring this up, but Taiwan and South Korea's industrialization were begun during the period of Japanese colonization. Does this mean colonialism is the best form of government for developing countries?

JiaMing:

Raoul,

If you feel that the poor in America made the right decisions by voting Bush into office twice, then I rest my case. You know what? they just might do it again in this election by voting McCaine into office. America will be in Iraq indefinitely then. People should have the choice to screw up as much as they want right?

Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Singapore all started their economic development under autocratic regimes. Taiwan fared particularly bad lately because the Taiwanese people got blind sighted by political rhetoric, far more than all of the other countries and neglected their economy.

I am not going to get into a competition on political correctness. My point is that intellectual elites (not necessarily the rich) are better equipped to select the right leaders for the country. Please refrain from emotional rhetorics like "degrading" because that leaves no room for intelligent discussions.

=============

Unfortunately one can never prove anything by referencing the path not chosen. There is simply no way to know that things would be better if Gore or Kerry had been elected rather than Bush. It certainly seems likely, but in the end we have to admit that the world is a complex system and doesn't correspond very well to dualistic schemes.

Regarding your preference for government by an elite, consider that the American elite (as judged by educational achievement) supports Obama, one of their own. This despite the fact that he has significantly less experience (and as importantly less of a record) than Dan Quayle did when these same people ripped him apart for being too inexperienced to be Vice President.

Why do you think that the elite supports a candidate who is largely an unknown factor, and who has no military, diplomatic or executive experience? Why was this candidate considered superior to all the other Democrats who were running for President this year? Were all the other candidates so bad that it was worth taking such a chance? Or do the elites simply behave as irrationally as the unwashed, preferring to make their choices largely on emotional grounds?

Personally I prefer a system that tries to raise the educational standards of the mass as a means to better prepare them for their duties as citizens of a Democratic Republic. There is enough waste of resources protecting the children of privilege as it is. Giving the elites complete control of the government seems to invite a class rigidity that would serve the nation poorly in the long run.

Raoul,

If you feel that the poor in America made the right decisions by voting Bush into office twice, then I rest my case. You know what? they just might do it again in this election by voting McCaine into office. America will be in Iraq indefinitely then. People should have the choice to screw up as much as they want right?

Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Singapore all started their economic development under autocratic regimes. Taiwan fared particularly bad lately because the Taiwanese people got blind sighted by political rhetoric, far more than all of the other countries and neglected their economy.

I am not going to get into a competition on political correctness. My point is that intellectual elites (not necessarily the rich) are better equipped to select the right leaders for the country. Please refrain from emotional rhetorics like "degrading" because that leaves no room for intelligent discussions.

Jiaming,

One more question: if Japan, South Korea and Taiwan are all democracies (and Singapore a semi-democracy), why do you blame only Taiwan's economic woes on democracy?

Chen's crime :
1. Money laundry in such a large amount that matches drug kingpins.
2. Bribery: If the money is from legal means, why would he have to send it out of Taiwan. Rumor has it that it is money given to him after his buddy successfully took over some state own enterprise. Some kind of profit sharing.
Crime #1 is already proven. It should be at least 10-12 years in jail.
If crime #2 is proven, that is life sentence.
Western democracy is a perfect platform for people to polarize the country in order to benefit themselves. Election is a show to fool people for support. The root of all this is greed and power. Just look at how GW was elected, and how they framed the Iraq war. If people with GW's IQ and integrity can be president, you guys really need helps.

Jiaming,

Who has the right to define what an individual's "interest" is? Poor people who voted for Bush, for instance, may not share your particular definition of their "interests" (i.e., they may value certain ideals over pocketbook issues.) You may think this is stupid and unwise. But who are you to choose for them? Are you really that smart and enlightened? Would you force them, like small children, to have someone choose their interests for them?

I'm sorry, your plan is degrading.

I was born and raised in Hunan but I have now spent same amount of time in the West as in China. While those having visited China a few times claim to be China expert, after living so many years in the West , I don't think I can claim anything more than just having basic understanding that there are differences between East and West.

Back to the subject of Taiwan, I have a story to tell. Once I met an Asian lady named 'Wen'. I had no doubt she was Chinese. So I asked her whether she was Chinese. She said she was Taiwanese. Obviously she wanted to make a statement there. Although I was surprised, I did not reveal any emotion and we continued chatting in English. But her reaction made me sensitive to this subject for my future encounters with people from Taiwan. I have an office colleague who was known to be from Taiwan. We always say hi and chat in English. On the Olympics Opening Day, I wore an Olympics shirt to the office. She greeted me with a big smile and started talking about her trips to Beijing and how much she loved going back to China. So I asked her whether she was Chinese. She said:
LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT MY FACE!! ISN'T IT WRITTEN ALL OVER MY FACE THAT I AM CHINESE. NOT ONLY I AM, MY SON IS, MY DAUGHTER IS.
She said her 80 year old parents went back to Taiwan to vote for the new President. 200000 Taiwan Chinese went back to Taiwan to vote this year to make this historic win.

Taiwan will NOT become independent. It is just reality. Taiwan and China, we say in Chinese, are mouth and teeth (or better teeth and gums), one can no longer separate them no longer how hard one tries. People have no interest in going backward! Taiwan offers a true opportunity for China to open up more towards democracy. It is my hope of life time that China and Taiwan will build towards unification through gradual transition and evolution.

On a side note, the new President of Taiwan Mr.Ma was born in Hong Kong to Hunan parents. He has made personal donations and contributions to build HOPE schools and roads in rural Hunan province.

Please read this:
Students from China will report US election to China'a audience. This is significant!!

http://blog.chinationreport.com/2008/08/19/students-from-china-to-cover-usa-election/

I find this line in the blog somewhat amusing

"This is the same guy who based his presidency on enraging China just enough to ensure his re-election"

As the inverse of this is that the Chinese Communist Party bases its sense of legitimacy of the "defending the sacred territorial integrity of the Chinese Motherland from splittists and seperatists". As while Chen may exploit a feeling in Taiwan of Taiwanese uniqueness the C.C.P. most certainly shamelessly exploits a current of dogmatic nationalism in order to justify their unchallanged monopoly on power.

Raoul,

Actually your assumption that wealth and education are tightly coupled has already been proven wrong in history. For thousands of years, China had been ruled by a system where the imperial court selected the best scholars from all over the country to serve at all levels of offices, from the prime minister to a village chief. China had abandoned aristocracy and adopted a system of rule by the intellectual elites since the 5th century. Through this system, many poor peasants transformed their family fortune by sending their children to schools in order to gain the opportunity for advancement through education. This is largely responsible for the emphasis on education by Chinese families, rich and poor alike.

In the United States, the wealthy are definitely better educated. But there are plenty of opportunities to get a good education for everyone, certainly much more than China. It is often the culture, not economic levels, that keep poor Americans from striving for excellence in education.

The assumption that the wealthy and educated will always vote for their own interests is also untrue. In the 2000 and 2004 US presidential election, the wealthy coastal states overwhelmingly voted for the democratic candidates even though George W. Bush has always favored the rich in his policies. It was the poorer demographic of America that voted Bush into office twice. They were clearly not informed and intelligent enough to vote for their own interests.

People's rule sounds nice, but when the rubber meets the road, nothing beats (intellectual) elite rule societies.

Hmm, interesting idea, Jiaming. But don't you think levels of wealth and levels of education are pretty tightly intertwined? Folks with money generally have access to better schools, can afford law school and grad school, can get Mom and Dad to support them through their doctoral program, etc. Under your model, the rich get political power, the poor are kept out.

Not very attractive...

The current Western democratic system is not the best form of government that a human society can have. Even in the West such as the US, the wrong leaders are often elected to the top office. The problem is that ordinary people have little knowledge, education, expertise and intelligence to make good decisions in selecting their leaders. All they ususally go by are fancy speeches and nationalistic slogans. Those who truly understand what makes a good leader are too few in number to make a difference.

A better system than the Western democracy is one in which votes weighted according to the level of education of the voters. That means a college professor should get a bigger vote than an illiterate person. We have seen over and over again that when the elites are able to steer the direction of a nation, it can overcome many adversities and move forward rapidly. This happened in Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea and now China on a much larger scale. It is particularly noteworthy that Taiwan, after 30 years of rapid growth under the KMT authoritarian rule, slipped to the last place out of the four Asian economic powers of the 1980s after only a decade of Western style democracy.

I hope that China can learn the lessons from the West and develop an elite democracy that would likely have avoided the disasterous leaderships of George W. Bush and Chen Shui Bien.

Best quote today!

"I am a Taiwanese and I'm proud of the democratic progress made by my fellow Taiwanese people. At the same time, I am Chinese and I am ashamed of the fascist tactics employed by the Beijing government. Finally I am an American and I'm free to express my thoughts and I kowtow to no one."

there are no chinese, LOL..love that "ethnic" tirade at the end. it reminds me of a cbc news clip i saw in the aftermath of sichuan quake. cbc cameraman and journalist were walking, filming when they came upon citizens confronting the local cpc official about their tofu-school and corruption. he was rough and evasive but when he saw the news-camera, he became angry, saying: "who brought them here? you're CHINESE. you know they lie, like about tibet."
as someone so eloquently stated, 'democracy is not ethnic". corruption is a terrible thing. in taiwan, it looks like an ex-president will be doing some time, a sure sign of functional judicial system. in sichuan, huang qi, a human rights activist who was collecting, compiling data on school-collapses was arrested for possession of state secrets; grieving parents weren't allowed memorials, demonstrations nor legal redress about apparent corruption.
i'd say the taiwanese have a good thing going relative to what their "ancestors" fled. as for tensions among the islanders, they only have to reflect on the alternative.
i've often thought of macao, hongkong and taiwan as western trojan horses which beijing's "bling dynasty" greedily gathers up.

John: The Swiss prosecutor sent the official inquiry regarding the income from Chen and his family members in January this year. Back then, Chen was still in office and of course the inquiry was withheld from public notice until now. Therefore it is the external investigation that revealed Chen’s corruption instead of the internal investigation, which has gone nowhere for years. Having known this fact, are you still believing that Democracy hold the advantage over the main land China?

I support democracy, hence I support Taiwan and DDP. Chen's personal failure is a disappointment and a setback for the pan-green coalition, but the disclosure is a step forward for Taiwan's democracy. We are a long way from the dark ages of the authoritarian KMT regime. Chen was temped, corrupted, and deserves to be jailed. I much rather see him share a cell with the likes of Soong, Lien, and Lee, but for the time being Chen will just have make do by himself.

To the guy claiming there are no Taiwanese, perhaps when you finally removed the colored lenses of your sinocentric view of the world you will see that Democracy has little to do with ethnic origin. I am a Taiwanese and I'm proud of the democratic progress made by my fellow Taiwanese people. At the same time, I am Chinese and I am ashamed of the fascist tactics employed by the Beijing government. Finally I am an American and I'm free to express my thoughts and I kowtow to no one.

This recent discovery of former President Chen stealing campaign fund is just one of a series of corruption cases involving Chen's family and diplomats under him, who stole government money supposed to be used to buy diplomatic recognition of Taiwanese government. What is at issue in this corruption case is the lack of transparency and accountability of government fund and the party's campaign money, the case in point is that when the former vice president Ms. Li was asked about the stealing of fund by former president Chen, she said she knew nothing about it.

James Soong is not the Blue counterpart to CSB. James Soong was never president of ROC nor is he part of the KMT party anymore.

The current President of ROC, Ma Ying-jeou has already gone to court 3 times over DPP allegations of possible mishandling of slush funds while he was mayor of Taipei. He was found not guilty all three times.

I think the issue with why CSB are going to jail again, is because he never respected the court system in Taiwan. His first time going to jail was when he refused to publish an apology to Elmer Fung when he lost a defamation suit against him. When he became president, he used his influence to trump up charges against Elmer Fung.

This is just another scandal in the long list of scandals that CSB has been involved in. Sogo Gift vouchers, 2004 bullet in the stomach scandal, Son-in-law insider trading scandal, Son using ROC Airforce One as a private jet for wedding scandal, and losing $30 million USD in Papua New Guinea dollar diplomacy scandal....

Instead blaming CSB troubles on the "Blue conspiracy." DPP and Taiwan Independence supporters should just realize CSB has been dishonest.

These are the views of a real Taiwanese and a citizen of ROC.

There is no Taiwanese...

Majority people on the island migrated from Mainland 50 to 300 years ago. So, hundreds years ago, the Fujianese who came to the island and fought off the native islanders and the natives became 'mountainers'. The Fujianese also got into wars with people from Canton, particularly those group who spoke 'Kue Jia' dialect.

And now, these same Fujianese wanted to claim the entire island as their own and betraying their own ancestry...

Shame on them...

They claim that anyone who arrived at the island in the last 60 years don't belong to the island of Taiwan..

Shame on them...

They claim that KMT is an foreign ruler who only inherited the wealth of Japan's conolization some 80 years ago, that they much rather to have the Japan to rule the island, again...

Shame on them...

They claim that KMT did not provide wealth to the people of the island some last 60 years, that most of infrastructure of the island were built during the colonization...

Shame on them...

They claim that KMT was so corrupt that A-Bian's mistakes were miniscure.... They forgot that Taiwan was one of the four little dragons of Asian until A-Bian's government took the office. That so many people in Taiwan are in poverty now. Many long for the days of good o' KMT days...

They forot that the reason they are so well off today was due to the leadership of KMT in the last 60 years or so...

Shame on them...

DPP.... in Chinese, there is a saying... you need to know where you'd came from, and remember who have given you the opportunities you are enjoying today...

Well, you wouldn't have known the wisdom if you don't even think you are Chinese, can you?

So much for basic human nature...

Shame on you...

Proclamation of Taiwan independence is like a march of death... The morale of the movement tears the people in half. It provoke hatred between descendents and ancestors, mistrust between people and law makers, and isolation between the poor little island and the world.

Proclimation of Taiwan independence is like two 14 yr old kids walk into a church in Vegas and asked to be wedded. Who in the world will give them the certificate? Who is going the recognize the marriage? And who dares to see them start a family?

Proclimation of Taiwan independence is never going to get support nor recognization from UN. So why keep provoking the hostility and raise the risk of war when... your own people are suffering from poverty?

DPP... wake up..... your ancestors and mine came to the island of Taiwan just few years apart. Your ancestors would have be deeply disappointed if you forget your root...

Your ancestors would have thought you are still Chinese!

You eat Chinese! You read Chinese! Your write Chinese! Damn, you look like a Chinese!

And, your Taiwanese dialect, Fujianese, is just one of hundreds of dialect of Chinese!

Stop fooling yourselves! DPP!

The result of Taiwan independence is like hundreds of frogs living at the bottom of a well. They tell each other to believe that the world outside is filled with war and diseases. That they should never trust the outsiders and leave the well. And, eventually, when they run out of food, they start eating off one another....

And you have never seen frogs eating one another? Well, you are witnessing them on the island of Taiwan.

Wake up! DPP! Open your minds and let the world in! Stop isolating yourselves!

The peace at Strait will bring prosperity to the island of Taiwan and the entire Pacific rim. The movement of independence means death for you all....

Two words. JOHN EDWARDS.

Before 2004, there was no law banning candidates from keeping money donated to their campaigns. The max they could get him on was not reporting campaing money truthfully. But KMT did? KMT's underreporting and corruption are much worse and yet they seem fine just because they are not caught or have not admitted to anything.

True, Chen should be investigated and punished but I don' like double standard. It's unfair to crucify Chen and let prominent KMT figures off. Media in Taiwan are very biased against pan-Green people by exaggerating or making fase allegations and have no problem covering up or minimising pan-Blue corruptions. The way pan-Blue politicians and media condemn Chen is a giant dirty pot calling a small stained kettle black.

Chen admitted not reporting all campaign donations. He also admitted that his wife had set up off-shore accounts. That’s it. For your information, even Chen did not report all campaign donation, his figures for Presidential campaigns in 2000 and 2004 were higher than KMT’s candidates’. Can you explain this? Given your understanding of Taiwan politics, do you believe that KMT spent less than the poor DPP candidate? Furthermore, what happening in Taiwanese now are propaganda from KMT in order to cover up the useless and helpless Ma Administration. The prosecutors did not have concrete evidence in Anything. After all, fail to declare campaign donation is a minor crime. No laws prohibit wiring money aboard.
Last, I would appreciate if you do not link Taiwan with China. PRC is founded on Oct 1, 1949. Not a day has PRC ruled Taiwan. If you agree with PRC’s logic that Taiwan is part of PRC, PRC can make the same claims to the US, Canada, wherever they can find Chinese.

Mainland China is the mainland for Chinese not Taiwanese. Taiwan is the mainland for Taiwanese. Chinese has used this method to brainwash the Taiwanese plus many, many other methods. Watch out Taiwanese people!

To Rock,

Chen has already admitted to the press that he had off shore swiss accounts where he wired undisclosed campaign money, he also openly blamed his wife for doing all the dirty work he was "unaware of", I don't know how these "facts" could be distorted by the pro-KMT media. He also said he came out just cause his conscience told him to do so, oh how noble of him, later did we find out he was forced to, since the Swiss government initiated an investigation on his questionable accounts. There are still die hard fans in Taiwan who think it's some kind of conspiracy that the PRC government is working with the Swiss government to topple "the only beloved ex-president of the Taiwanese people".

So the KMT did worse in history and the DPP can never top that. Let me ask you, when can the KMT as an opposition party ever do their job of keeping an eye on the DPP government? I guess until they commit genocide? Oh wait, I forgot about 228, so I guess we can never condemn Chen or DPP for anything then? Might as well make Taiwan a communist country where Chen is the new Mao. The Taiwanese people deserve better than this!

If the mainland China indicts an official, it must be because of political struggle. If it happens in Taiwan, suddenly it's because of democracy?

It is totally wrong that the ex-president did not disclose his campaign fund fully. But we should expect the justice to take its course before any judgment. However, I'd like to point out the issue has been distorted and misled by the KMT government. I believe the author's news source is probably not trust-worthy.

If you think Chen is corrupted, you should consider that KMT had been at least 10 times of that, and it is still ongoing. The difference was that KMT was in control of all different branches of government in Taiwan for 50 years, and Chen's administration failed to overhaul the corrupted system left by KMT government.

The comment from John Pomfret shows how little he knows about what's going on in Taiwan. Taiwan's media is not trust-worthy, due to the fact that KMT's domination. If your source of news is from Taiwan's news or reporters, then you are most likely been misled. I suspect your source is from KMT's people in DC, that will make it even worse since they release incorrect information purposely in order to manipulate public opinion to their advantage. It is ashamed, but as long as KMT is in power, you won't see the day Taiwan's democracy becomes a true democracy.

I'm not so much admire the political system of Taiwan, but I do envy their legal system which can put their leader under scrutiny. Democracy will be welcome when the value is living in China's citizenry. Now the priority is rather an independent legal branch that can protect people's basic rights.

Like one comment mentioned, this case will improve the way government money are to be handled in the future in a DEMOCRATIC Taiwan.

Actually for those who are naive and think that government officials in China only have the intention to serve the interest of its people, I am sorry but they are wrong.

Many chinese officials have stolen millions and forward their money to their childrens in the U.S In reality more chinese officials have laundered money. It is just that this crime is better protected by ONE and only ONE communist government.

I live in silicon valley and everyday we hear from friends whose new neighbor who just bought 1 million dollar house just came from china and their parents are in government. And, there are more government reps in China than in Taiwan.

This is happening at every country. It is just the matter of getting caught. :-)

I like the American society. American system works best in this society. Taiwan is not there yet. However, the Chen's case shows Taiwan's system having bright future.

gay, ....liberal, no gun, more aa, more ma, more women--> democrat?
more devoice, more ex-wife, gun, more white, more man--->republican?

Jack wrote:
"Mainlanders would look to Taiwan as a reason NOT to let China slide into democracy. It brings to life every Chinese person's nightmare of chaotic elections driven by identity politics and controlled by 19th century Tammany Hall-style political machines.

My bet would be that most Mainland Chinese look towards Singapore's stodgy meritocratic autocracy as the ideal governance to emulate."

The KMT lost the mainland 60 years ago just for this particular reason.

Legistors fighting in the parliament, corruption and cheating during election that's Taiwanese democracy.

To Robson

We are Taiwanese who STEAL TAIWANESE'S MONEY.

I think Taiwan law does allow candidates to keep campaign money. I am not quite sure, we will see the details develop. Corruption? yes, have u guys checked KMT's corruption record ??? Abian's legacy to Taiwan is WE ARE TAIWANESE. He made us aware who we are.

"Joe:
Yup. I prefer our American ways. Have a president who gets "it" under the White House desk, a senator who extends his foot to the neighboring stall in men's room, and endless presidential hopefuls admitting to extra-marital affairs.... but NO MONEY LAUNDERING! Yeah!

Apart from these forgivable sexual deviance, you won't catch good ol' US boys stealing money or misusing taxpayers' money. I swear you won't. (yeah right)." August 18, 2008 7:18 PM

*******

Yeah, how about Bush lying out loud to the whole wide world and misusing taxpayers' money in the hundred of billions of dollars and sending other people's sons, daughters, husbands, fathers, brothers, sisters, etc. to fight his war in Iraq just to avenge the assasination plot on his father by Saddam, and have over 4000 U.S. soldiers killed and thousands disabled for life. What do you call this? Besides, the mother of all chickens turned out to be the mother of all hawks. What a chicken warrior.

USA has vigoriously propagandised Taiwan as a model of democracy to China and the Americans. So USA dares not widely report the grave corruption of the democratically elected president Chen. USA is suppressing freedom of the press. If a corrupt person can be elected as president in Taiwan through the so-called democratic election, it can happen again and again in the future. So what good is democracy.

Democracy is not a cure-all. It's the will of the people that counts. What should be the punishment for Chen's crime?

It it happened in China today, Chen will be shot.

In Taiwan, Chen will certainly not be shot. But severe punishment is in order here, not just for the crime he committed but for the hypocracy.

Let's see how strong the will of the Taiwnaness poeple.

It's called "hei-jin," not "hei-qian." And Chen resigned his party membership, not the party leadership (he was not head of the party when this --- hit the fan).

And what a terrible characterization of Chen's campaign -- "enraging China" just to get elected? All Chen ever said to enrage China is that Taiwan is a free country independent from the PRC and has the right to determine it's own future. And quite frankly, that is a description of reality, and was taken as such by the people in Taiwan.

Of course, he has destroyed the DPP's hopes for electoral victory in the foreseeable future and shattered the party's image. He has single-handedly now done more to damage the DPP's cause than the entire Blue camp put together.

http://a-gu.blogspot.com

Check on those in KMT - Ma, Lien and Soong, Dare to say that they are clean

Check on all those in KMT too, dare to say that they are clean/

There are corruptions and there is this totally embarassing story. Chen tried to project an image of a clean politician. His act have undermine Taiwan as a clean and progressive democratic country. It is a setback that will last for sometime.

I think Chen will probably get a slap on the wrist for this and then corruption will just continue.

Corruption exists everywhere. Remember how Mr. Kennedy bought those votes back when. That said, the story of Mr. Chen is particularly difficult since he really did start poor, suffered much, and genuinely had hoped to transform Taiwan. Was it time, cynicism, or what else that is going to lead to his infamous legacy? This was not some momentary failure. His entire family has been involved in graft. Son-in-law is already in jail for a convicted embezzlement offense.

Corruptions are part of the Asian culture. You can't do business there without bribing the right person or group. It's called connections. So rigging an election by buying votes and/or intimidating is nothing new. Chen is definitely not the first or the last Taiwanese official that had pocketed his campaign donations. Bribery or embezzlement by officials are much worse than pocketing campaign donations in scale. Talking democracy is easier, but it does take time to live democracy. It took us quite a while to get where we are today.

You have to understand Taiwan is democracy system, such news breaks out often.

But in China, no one ever know how much those blood suckers drain from the Chinese people.

Corruption of officials are in every country, but only the democratic country leaders are revealed.

That is why Taiwan government is better than China.
And I am sure those Chinese officials' families are much richer than Chen's family.

But who dare to report, or even to ask:
"My my chairman, or Province governor Li, how much you move our money into you account?"

Only Democracy System reveals Dirty Politician!
But a totalitarian government never will show their dirty tails.

The ability to review and correct is vital to a democratic system. Lots of us knew what kind of crook Chen is. Now it is proven. Let's see if they can really put him in jail and make him spit the money. If they can, hurray to Taiwanese!

>>and, who knows, perhaps good news for the many Chinese on mainland China who look to Taiwan and its political system with some hope and maybe a little admiration. Could this happen in China, too?

Ha ha. I know what you mean to say here, but I'm not sure too many Chinese people would. This whole debacle probably just proves this thing about 'benevolent dictatorship' to most Chinese people - a corrupt politician seizes power and tries to start a war (which just happens to be with China.) Okay, maybe this one little segment of the story is good, but you can't tell them to look at just that while ignoring the larger picture.

Political corruption and patronage are a $NT a dozen in Taiwan. I do agree with the writer that this has significance in influencing China in subtle or significant ways.

We are living in the age of internet, and there are an influx of Chinese tourists in Taiwan on a constant basis. I believe one of the favourite night time activity for theses tourists is to stay in their hotel room to watch the daily political programs on TV that critiques and lambastes the government and politicians alike.

Democracy or freedom is like an addiction, once you're hooked, you'll always remember the high and you will try to replicate the sensation. You may try to suppress it and forget about it, or others may force you to do so, but the memory and lingering urge remain.

Lui Xiang revealed that he not the great athlete that Chinese wanted him to be for them. Chinese people made him fail. The shame is on them not Lui Xiang but they are dishonest enough to not admit their own blame, as always.

I agree with the comment of lack of investigation on the Blue party, but I do see this as extremely hopeful. One a weapon is used by either side, then it becomes fair game for all. Charges of corruption against a former President is a great step forward for Taiwan.

On the comment about China being ahead of Taiwan on fighting corruption. Um, look at the recalls from China in the US compared to Taiwan. Taiwan does have a huge corruption issues, but it's culture was not twisted by the cultural revolution losing much of it's morality as happened in China. I would estimate Taiwan on a scale of 1-10 is a 4, China is an 8, and Nigeria a 10. US is around a 2.

The fact that a former head of state in Taiwan is going on trial in Taiwan and the trial is recieving full and unrestricted media coverage is a strong testament to the robustness of Taiwanese democracy and heralds Taiwan's position of having the freest media in Asia. This is indicative of saliant differences between the political culture of Taiwan and the P.R.C. Namely that Taiwan has an autonomous legal system whereby no one is above the law while the P.R.C. lacks anything remotely resembling an autonomous legal system that is not a glorified extension of the P.R.C's one party state. The brazen media coverage that this trial is recieving stands in stark contrast to the draconian state controlled media in the P.R.C whereby the media is strictly forbidden from saying anything remotely critical of the C.C.P.

Finally the phrase that Chen campaigned on a policy of enraging China to secure re-election is equally humerous as China gained maximum political exploitation from acting in an enraged manner as Chen did in enraging China. Remember that the C.C.P. validates is governing mandate by playing upon ultra-nationalism as shown by the way it pumps out dogmatic banal trite nationalistic slogans based on pseudo history. For example if the C.C.P wanted to act in a mature manner they would stop with trite cliches that bear no resemblance to reality. For example "Taiwan has been an inalieable part of China since ancient times" and that "splittist activity in Taiwan is restricted to an evil minority that contradicts the desire of the overwhelming majority of Taiwan compatriots who seek to be reunited with the Chinese motherland"

I relocated here a year ago from India and am surprised at the level of political discourse, the transparency in investigating government failures and the scathing commentary that op-ed pieces carry of the govt. If the mainland wants to look at what to aspire to, look no further. Taiwan can teach a lesson in democracy and its better side to many, including my unfortunate country (but that's another, VERY long story)...

PS - good you covered the island, its actually an amazing place.

Several periods in mainland China's history have developed in which corruption became an end unto itself. The late Manchu dynasty through 1900 is a good example. But it is a 'culture' of corruption that differentiates a democracy from a totalitarian system. In a democracy like Taiwan, there are many instances of corruption without it being a 'culture' where positions in the government are purchased for the express purpose of acquiring clan or family wealth by bestowing purchasable 'favors' to others. In a Taiwanese, Philippine, Korean or Japanese democracy, the mere existence of a public denunciation press might be enough to prevent the corruption culture, even if much exists. The PRC, Vietnamese and Myanmar governments have the corrupt culture disease and it is strong enough to be harmful to so many ‘paying clients’.

Without a free mass communication method, the ‘culture’ would be extremely difficult to remove. Believing that a position of power and influence is a possession of one’s clan is as old as the Chin Dynasty and the Pharaohs of Egypt . The American Constitution checks and balances goes a ways to moving away from the diseased cultures of the past, but perhaps still not enough.

OF COURSE there is corruption in EVERY system. The reason why democracy is good is because there are TWO parties vying for power, and they will take every chance that they can get to point out the other partys faults, including corruption. You think there is no corruption in the CCP? Let me tell you a little secret... there is corruption, but nobody gets caught... they are all part of the same team... unless of course somebody steps out of line... then it's corruption charges and execution time. yipee.

I think Michael is probably correct in his statements about most of the American media not covering the scandal in Yaiwan. I have not looked, but the BBC at its website is probably covering the story.

The vast majority of Americans likely do not know where Taiwan is, geographic ignorance is pervasive among most people in this country. In a "National Geographic" international poll in 1989, only 46% of Americans surveyed could correctly locate Japan on a world map, only 32% knew where Vietnam was.

I doubt if the latest scandal in Taiwan, there seem to be so many in recent years, will affect the people in China either way, in terms of democracy. The leaders in China are most likely to enact political reforms gradually over decades. There are already reasonably fair elections in some villages. Chinese leaders will probably expand these elections into larger towns and perhaps cities within about ten years.

The new administration in Taiwan and the anti-corruption measures against an ex-president is definitely bad news for Beijing. There are already many voices in China cheering for the new Taiwanese government and asking why the Mainland cannot go after corrupt officials like Taiwan did. This is a real catalyst for democracy in China.

It is heavenly blessing for Chinese leaders to get rich from Chinese people, that is Chinese tradition.

It is not a serious thing:)

Look at Mainland, who would dare to say anything?
C'mon!

One of the least corrupt government is Singapore, which many believe is an authoritative state. Take that, democracy!

++++++++++++++++++
I am living in Taiwan, Chen's scandal was the biggest news in Taiwan in the past 3 days. Can you explain why Washington Post (CNN, BBC, CBC, Reuters for that matter) hasn't even aired a single news item on this matter? Your paper reported one news that is Taiwan related - a Taiwan pitcher played a perfect game in 1979's World Series. Is this news even comparable to Chen's Scandal on the level of importance? What is keeping your paper from reporting Chen's corruption scandal promptly?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mr. Ho: As I noted on my blog, if you get RSS and get Taiwan- related feeds, everyone from Forbes to Xinhua to Bloomberg is reporting on it. Some of the western editors have fairly strict rules on what gets printed about Taiwan, an correspondent explained once. Cross-strait stuff, cute aboriginal stories, and IT industry. And that's about it. Since political corruption is ominpresent in all nations, it doesn't get much interest from editors. That's just the way it is, part of the larger problem of Taiwan getting any profile in the world. As a fellow blogger put it, reporting on Taiwan goes....

"And now for Taiwan, we turn to our Hong Kong correspondent..."

I often describe American Campaign Contributions on the part of corporations as being the same as bribes. They may be "legal", but in fact most of them are payments for either services rendered, or services expected.

John -- this is bad news for China. First it will simply underscore the perception that Beijing is working hard to foster that "democracy" equals chaos and corruption. Second, the investigations and criminal prosecutions and jail only happen to Greens, not Blues. The US$400 million payoff from France to the KMT for the Lafayette frigate sale has not resulted in a single conviction among high-ranking members of the pro-China party despite public identification of a former Blue presidential candidate as the bagman on the deal. Nor have any high-ranking Blues been jailed for the political killings, or other acts of corruption and oppression over the years.

There's no question that what Chen did was abysmally stupid and unethical and has seriously harmed Taiwan's democratic development. May he rot in hell forever. But I think it should also highlight that corruption in Taiwan is completely systemic. Everyone is on the take, from the construction-industrial state politicians the top who feed and water local patronage networks with flows of construction funding from the central government, to the voters at the bottom who take payments to vote or not vote (6000+ cases of vote buying in last legislative election).

In addition to all the other fallout, this will enable the KMT controlled legislature to put off campaign finance reform because they can claim that it is all Chen's own fault, not the System.

The irony is that except for not reporting taxable income, Chen is probably allowed to keep the money, and campaign finance laws are so weird, he may not legally have been able to transfer it to another entity, such as his party or a charity. Being a prime weasel, Chen may well be able to weasel out of this one -- his Blue counterpart James Soong got only tax fines for doing the same thing. The purpose of these laws, like that the special funds, is to ensure that all politicians take the money, are corrupt and bound to the System regardless of their political preferences. This is why Ma Ying-jeou, the current president, always says sanctimoniously that he has followed the law whenever asked about his own downloading of government monies into his private accounts -- he's being ironic. Regrettably, instead of resulting in change, this is likely to result in further entrenchment of the System. Chen's stupidity has thus grievously harmed the post-authoritarian transition in Taiwan.

Michael
PS: When are you going to get people to moderate these forums to keep the yammerheads out?

"Mainlanders would look to Taiwan as a reason NOT to let China slide into democracy."

If most of the mainlanders don't want China to have a government resembling Taiwan's, then wouldn't it be democratic to for their government to remain unlike Taiwan's and undemocratic for their government to become like Taiwan's?

Mr. Pomfret:
I have to say that you are wrong this time.

Democracy has been touted as an omnipotent means to solve every problems in the world including corruption. However, this story you are telling here is just another piece of eveidence of impotent democracy. Shall we name the democratic nations in the world of their famous corruption? The first one is the United States. Corruption is rampant at every level of government from Congress to the municipality. Now back to China, it is well known for its collosal corruption. However, many high level officials have been arrested and sentenced to death when they were caught. Can we sentence our beloved corrupted congressmen to death? The answer is not only NO, but also we have to continue to pay their retirement until their last breath.

So, please, democracy is no means a guarantee of a clean government. Further, USA is no role model of punishing offenders of corruption in this world. As for Taiwan, serveal years ago, its supreme court justices have ruled and declared loudly that corruption and bribing is innate part of their culture. Followed that notorious ruling, several hundred lawmakers and mayors who were deeply involved in dirty money were set free.

I believe you are wrong on this one.

you have to be pretty naive to believe that the CCP is actually doing something about corruption. those who are getting "caught" are merely the ones that have fallen from power within the CCP politurbo. can a surgeon operate on himself? possible, but highly unlikely; just like how the CCP has absolutely no incentive nor ability to police itself. the only reason why singapore's system work is because of its size. it's only a matter of time before the CCP ruins itself. unfortunately, bloodshed will be inevitable. taiwan's democracy is not perfect, but given time, it will mature, just like how the US' did after 200 years.

yeah，I like Beijing，I like China.Come on Beijing,come on China,come on everyone in the Olympic!God bless you!

I am living in Taiwan, Chen's scandal was the biggest news in Taiwan in the past 3 days. Can you explain why Washington Post (CNN, BBC, CBC, Reuters for that matter) hasn't even aired a single news item on this matter? Your paper reported one news that is Taiwan related - a Taiwan pitcher played a perfect game in 1979's World Series. Is this news even comparable to Chen's Scandal on the level of importance? What is keeping your paper from reporting Chen's corruption scandal promptly?

You will always have corruption. I only get worried when no one gets caught.

"China has taken a hard line on corruption in recent years, punishing several officials with lengthy prison terms or execution. In January, the Chinese government issued new anti-corruption rules for public officials."

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/08/china-court-sentences-former-shanghai.php

John,

Don't you think you're being a little naive? How many similar "clean-up" cases have popped up in "developing democracies" throughout Asia? How many of these stories have happy endings?

What happened in the Philippines after Marcos? Estrada.

I hope for Taiwan's sake that Taiwan does better. But this just goes to prove yet again that populism isn't at all the same thing to democracy. Without a solidly established legal system and political tradition, the mechanism of democracy does little to curb corruption.

Mainlanders would look to Taiwan as a reason NOT to let China slide into democracy. It brings to life every Chinese person's nightmare of chaotic elections driven by identity politics and controlled by 19th century Tammany Hall-style political machines.

My bet would be that most Mainland Chinese look towards Singapore's stodgy meritocratic autocracy as the ideal governance to emulate.

Yup. I prefer our American ways. Have a president who gets "it" under the White House desk, a senator who extends his foot to the neighboring stall in men's room, and endless presidential hopefuls admitting to extra-marital affairs.... but NO MONEY LAUNDERING! Yeah!

Apart from these forgivable sexual deviance, you won't catch good ol' US boys stealing money or misusing taxpayers' money. I swear you won't. (yeah right).

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