Comments (871)

Whatever we agree or not with any negative points on China, we should be more aware that a stronger China government, stronger Chinese culture could only be built in Chinese people's support and understanding, not on any other nations.
Be stronger, Chinese people, and be more tolerable to critism, like a Panda, which should be recognized as a ture Chinese spirit.
Our country will need 50-100 years more to stand up with spirit. Let's expect that.

To "Anonymous"

China didn't "beg" for help. On the other hand, if China refused help, you would have even more to say. Don't you think?

Corruption probably exists, but I think you exagerated it much. Overall, Beijing did a much better job than Washington. I think this is a fair conclusion.

By the way, back in 1992 (?), China had a serious flood (almost 1/4 of the country was affected), and China did "beg" for help, and recieved some $40,000 charity from US. You see, begging didn't help when you really needed it. (My numbers may be a bit off since I was too young back then, but I think I got the scale right).

"China's reaction to the earth quake already proves that not all hearts are "polluted", and not all "angry youths" are useless. 9/11 and Katrina should have had similar effects on the Americans, but unfortunately they have not. You see, China isn't that hopeless."

Not hopeless, but not all is rossy either. If China had a 9/11 style attack, what do you think would happen? Second, there has been some negatives that have come out of peoples reactions to the earthquake; companies, countries and people have been guilted into donating and if not, they have been shamed, that do the chinese call that, for a country that has such reserves of money, why have they beged the world for help? you did not see the US do that, or why was the construction so bad and now parents of dead school kids are being arrested, what is that called? Or the issues now that some government officials are using the donations to make themselves rich and anyone who asks for answers is arrested, what is the name for that? Bias is everywhere and the world is full of s**t. Enough said.

To "An Objective Chinese"

"Air polluted, water polluted, hearts polluted..." I agree with you, but polluted by what? Capitalism and Communism, isn't it? Both are western concepts that have taken over our motherland. So if you are "an objective Chinese", than help to remove these western cultural rubbish and to restore our culture! Humiliating your own people and your motherland under a westerner's roof title "ugly Chinese" doesn't help!

Besides, you should be more hopeful (unless you are 90 years old and only wish to live in the selected past). China's reaction to the earth quake already proves that not all hearts are "polluted", and not all "angry youths" are useless. 9/11 and Katrina should have had similar effects on the Americans, but unfortunately they have not. You see, China isn't that hopeless.

Roaul,

On "white men"
Who invented this concept? If you don't think this concept is any more proper, you should confess over it but protest over it."解铃还需系铃人" ("Only he who created the knot can untie the knot."). Only you can prove to the world this concept is no more proper.

On "western civilization"
We happen to be talking about the negatives of western civilization here. If we were to talk about the possitives, you will accept the validity of this concept happily. Are all those colonizations, wars for "freedom" "democracy" not to spread "western civilization"?

I should make it clear: I do not hate white people. I really don't. What I despise is the characteristic and typical indifference and hypocricy of white people's.

To "an objective Chinese",
Very interesting comment,and self-aware too.Why don't you rename yourself as "a proud Chinese with green card and polluted heart",or "a poisonless Chinese" for short?Or if you are just speaking in a Chinese tone,better call yourself "a subjective fake".

China is doomed. The water is polluted. The air is polluted. The hearts of people are polluted. The world's e-waste is recycled in China. The people are made slaves, working day and night, for menial pay. The more made-in-China goods, the faster China is to be completely doomed.

Chinese people is doomed. Its people are continuing to flock overseas by deserting the motherland. Worse, its people, especially women, are turning 'whitey' and pure sycophant to the West and the Western Culture. The 'angry Chinese youth' would soon find out they cannot find their women - because their women already voted with their declaration to be whitewannebe.

The Chinese on this board are ignorant of who they are. Born atheist, with no morality and no compassion, and brainwashed by the communists since borth, they came to America with poisons in the blood.

None of them will return to China without an American passport. You could parden them for their ignorance. Their second generation and third generation will be different.

你在中国的两年完全是浪费时间，你在我们的国家没有得到任何有用的东西。我本以为你在中国的几年能让你理解中国的遭遇，中国人的遭遇，但是你没能，你完全是以一个侵略者，占领者，主子的身份来写这篇文章的。请问你为何不能站到中国人的立场上去看呢？为何不能调查清楚中国的历史再发表你的看法呢？我的话到此为止，请您这位记者给我一个解答！

Papertiger,

Your continued use of "white man" and the concept of a monolithic "western civilization" suggests that you have absolutely no comprehension of the multiple strains that make up social and political life outside your own little bubble. You paint a picture of bright colors and vivid contrast, but possessing little connection with reality. You continually proffer the basest forms of analysis -- if someone buys this kind of garbage, there is no use trying to dissuade them otherwise.

怎不嚷了?

Roaul,

Congrads on finding a "numerous" "tiresome" "lie" in my comment. Yet, you said it yourself, your "massive museum" is new. May be the very first in hundreds of years.

Since you can't call me a racist, "Fascist" is an alternative, isn't it? Fascism is yet another western curse on this world in its modern history. Don't pee it on others by name calling. "Pure blood" is offensive indeed, since it reminds your own history, doesn't it? If I were a white man, I would be embarrssed if others brough it up. Yet you seem totally un-embarrassed in throwing this at others. Defeating Germany's Nazism can be a western victory INTERNALLY whin western civilization, yet defeating the west's Nazism is world people's victory. Win or loss, still an embarrassment to western civilization. Get that? Stop pretending your internal view is universal. No one buys it. Perhaps you are just too confussed and don't even understand what I am saying here.

Peter,
Your criterion for "propaganda in its purest form" applies to west's Tibetan report and the "mass destructive weapon" Iraqi report, don't you think?

你这两个牛头马面.

To why,
Chinese are face-loving so they are sensitive to criticism.Maybe that's what's special about Chinese.But being sensitive and rebellious to biased criticism and unfair insult is something common around the globe,I'm sure.

To "Denzel Washington",
I'm impressed with your "ugly black" hypothesis.Try yell "ugly black" in Harlem and see if nothing happens to you.

Wow!A few days away and it's quite a mess here.Anti-Chinese are picking up again!What do you get?A bunch of "truth-finding" boneheads manipulated by media distortion!What's wrong with you guys?LOL...

"But these days, it seems like someone has disinterred Cultural Revolution propagandist and Gang of Four member Zhang Chunqiao and put him at the helm."

This guy (Zhang Chunqiao) died in 2005.

The term of “ugly” is a very loose cannon but a cunning one. Like one commentator pointed out: you cannot really do anything about it, neither argue against it nor for it, if you are a Chinese or Chinese-inclined. It needs better definition: are some Chinese just as ugly as any ugly elements in other society? Are just angry youth “fen-qing” ugly? Are Chinese collectively flawed in their common character? Are the Chinese government ugly? Is the Chinese culture ugly? Is the unbriddled nationalism ugly? Are nationalistic angry youth ugly? Is the government propaganda ugly? All we can say is that unqualified statement is inflamming. However, by including many facets of the biased view, Pompfret is merging everything in one – China without soft power (hence a soft mask maybe) is Ugly.

Pomfret was right about one thing, as he pointed out in his book, that China is facing a crisis. However, it is not because of the communism or lack of free press, as the west tend to think. China is in crisis because it lacks the moral compass the earth-scorching, corner-turning capitalism, while traditional Chinese values cannot be installed in time. It is in crisis because it opened up too quickly. Lack of natural resources like energy and water, and arable land, with such a large population, China could crumble into total chaos if social stability is not maintained. It might be easy to run a family of 3, but imagine if you have a family of 13. The privatization of the national assets will take time and steps.
The ship of shame was raised by Pomfret. The so-called Ship of Shame is no different for what Reagan has done in support of Iraq regime during the I-I war period. China has vested interest in Africa for energy since middle-eastern countries are out of its reach.
On the other of the Pacific, US places its national interest ahead of anything. Why not rapidly advance and institutionalize western-style democracy in middle eastern countries like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE, etc? Why not promote freedom of press, a multi-party political system there? Why Iraq is such an abyss if democracy and human rights are so welcomed in the US mind? China of course will protect its national interest, like it or not. Perhaps really, the emerging China, or China daring to dissent, is "Ugly"?

Certain things look dramatically different depending on which side you are on. Nationalism never looks nice for the opposing side. This is akin to the many problems encountered with the mad soccer fans of the clubs like Liverpool, and the bizarre issue of “Freedom Fries”. However, so long as no laws are broken (especially against foreign entities), no fingers should be pointed to the young fellows in China.
Final rebuttals are with the so called soft power and China-west honeymoon. China never had any soft power. Rather it has taken softer approaches in engaging the West. It merely imitates what the West have done in the international situation. What was the most favored nation? Was US dishing out the favors to whom they like? What is wrong when China is playing the same West-style game?

There was never a honeymoon between China and the West. Because there is money to be made in China, a bottomless cheap and skilled labor reservoir to be exploited, a favorable China tax policy to reel in bigger profits, the internal demand of cheaper products, foreign investment and business have flocked into China for the past 10 years. It was not because of China "soft" image. Readers should be reminded that US was sending its reconnaissance plane to check on China resulting in a collision thus provocative incident as late as April 1 2001. The Iraq war saved then chilling China-US relationship. It is certainly not a honeymoon episode by any standard. Why did Pomfret define this period with the term of honeymoon?

Granted, Pomfret knows China well. For all his knowledge and experience, his blog is truly dissapointing. He may still want to profit from his Chinese Lessons.

To Peter,

You cited what Pompfret stated: "But now across the globe China is dropping in the polls. And it's not due to lack of contact with the Chinese, people who are polled say, it's because we're getting to know them better."

I kind of wonder when China's poll was ever high in the West. You show me the past statistics (when the polled view on China was "fair, neutral or pretty") and current statistics ("ugly") with adequate control, then I may consider your position.

We have to be extremely careful using sensationalist's title in this sensitive period of time, given the polarized opinions on China still fermenting over the web. People who really care for China's future and the world's future should take a step back and reflect. Is China better than it was? Pomfret certainly knows that China is metamorphosizing into a capitalism society, for example, it has written the rights of private property into the law recently. As a journalist, Pomfret should point out that whereas there was no press conference for Chinese premier to face open questions from foreign journalists before, at least there is now.

如果一个人到你家里没来由的指责你家里的一切并破口大骂，你会怎么样？说说我一个小小的中国人的行动吧，我会把它赶出去甚至于动手让他吃点苦头。如果这点还做不到，那你就不要在这个家里呆了，家都保不住还谈什么。丑陋点没什么不好，最重要的是能保家。PASS：美国也不见得就高尚到哪里！提醒你一下，你们白人对于你国内的黑人更可怕，丑陋尚不能说明这些！

Papertiger's diatribes are "propaganda" in its purest form: sling lies everywhere, without pause, to attempt to control the public realm. It is classic PRC media tactics.

Unfortunately, Papertiger's ugly practices require an oppressive state to enforce conformity, so he rails away, barking his one-note tune, cries lost on the wind.

Papertiger,

I did not think I was treating you as a 3-year old. But now I realize I should have. For your bizarre race-based view of the world, which would have been very acceptable 100 years ago, is just offensive today. Your comments suggest that you hold some kind of fascist sense of "pure blood" as a critical political factor. Ewww...

Your call for "sincerity" is a well-worn one in mainland political culture. No matter what the Dalai Lama says, he is labelled insincere. No matter what Japan says, it is labelled insincere. And on and on. It is a nice technique for trying to control discourse in the public realm, and it is no mystery where you got the technique from.

Moreover, your outrage at "dishonesty" in media is particularly funny, in that China's media is tightly controlled by the government. Do you think your media's coverage is even up the the 70% standard you attribute to Western media?

Other fictions in your response are numerous and tiresome. For instance, you should visit the massive new Native American museum in Washington, DC.

Enjoy your fascist revolution.

Roaul,

100th time to hear these "arguements".

Obama is black, but he is western. Look at that black woman standing by Bush, she is more like white. The white men wouldn't mind making a red indian president if he or even she is willing to be white. Even better in fact, since then you can hide behind them and say what you just said to me. As well, Obama is only 1/2 black, it is already strange that this half of him is more useful. (I have greatest respects and sympathy for Africans anywhere, and I think Dr. King is the only true "American" sage or at least similarly so. So don't even try to lable me as this and that. White men are very good at doing that.) Besides, in the reverse case, some Germans claim that Hitler isn't German too. But what does that mean?

Regarding those contestations, I appreciate some of the aspects in the western intellectual society (remember, I am attacking west's hypocricy, not the whole western culture), but still:

1. You do it selectively, for example, there are many museums in US about the Jews or US sodliers' heroism in WW2, but very few (perhaps none) for the Native Americans.

2. Perhaps 70% of time, you are honest, what about the orther 30%? CNN, BBC dishonesty in the Tibetan reports have revealed this charming danger. If there is a peeing section in a swimming pool, is the swimming pool still a clear swimming pool.

3. You hide behind this constestations and books (just like you hide behind Obama), and use it as a "I am now a good man" patch for further benefits. You may apologize for your sins, but you don't confess. Hope I don't need to explain the difference between these two terms to you. If you white men truly confess, you simply wouldn't be acting this stupid way you are.

The basic fact is that, sincerity in the white men is missing.

Further "arguements" OK, but please give me some new and sincere ones. Don't assume others are three year-olds.

p.s. papertiger, you are going to have to drop that "white man" thing once Obama is our next president.

Papertiger,

Do you have any idea of the public contestation, the countless books and articles published freely, debated openly, the incessant intellectual and public self-flagellation undertaken by these "un-confessing descendants of slave owners, global colonists, Nazis, on-going invaders, war profiteers and national terrorists"?

This open, unrestricted public contestation seems beyond the imagination of many, like yourself, who post here. Scholars, journalists, members of society are free to examine historical sins, and -- given the diversity within most Western societies -- this occurs on virtually any subject under the sun. It is the greatest strength of these societies, despite their enduring flaws.

Different cultures can have very different standards of beauty. So I don't expect that you will find this model attractive. I only object to the the incessant calls from the mainland side to silence writers like Pomfret, for critics to "shut up". To me, this attempt to control and squash critiques one doesn't like epitomizes ugliness.

西方人讲道德, 东施效颦.

又要当婊子,又要立牌坊. 我从心里面瞧不起你们这些西方人.

Translation:
White men preaching morality, it is like Sharon Stone pretending Helen of Troy.

You westerners want a gold medal for morality while you have been bandits and are still demanding all the benefits of being bandits, how can I respect you and take you seriously.

Those “China experts” never discard their colorful blinkers, or they themselves are colorful telescopes towards China from western, isn’t it? No doubt they are good at collecting something negative about China. And biased propaganda and agitations are also well-done by them, who urge to conclude that China is dropping in the polls.
Some truth will be filtered out forever by our “China experts”.
http://blog.nnsky.com/blog_view_402072.html
木秀于林，风必摧之。In fact, those “experts” are jealous of us, beautiful and powerful Chinese. They want to mask the beauty they are seeing, but forget one saying: 青山遮不住，毕竟东流去。

恶人先告状,
贼也!

"八国联军还是那个八国联军"

So well said. Can't help but quote it again. And I will add one more line, and since all the western China experts here understand China so well, they must understand this line too:

恶人先告状!

Roaul,

Would you be so kind as to point out the fallacies in my comments? I am all ears.

Besides, I would not call it "amusing" when being called "un-confessing descendants of slave owners, global colonists, Nazis, on-going invaders, war profiteers and national terrorists", unless, it is not true!

Got to run now, will be back later, or a lot later.

Papertiger,

Excuse me if I don't find your argument convincing, or intelligible, for that matter. But you are certainly free to voice your views.

Roaul,

Stop playing word games, which is another form of hypocricy. The west is not all white now, but which is partly if not largely or even mostly a consequence of the white men's global colonlization, slavery trade etc.

Regarding hypocricy, certainly, no nations are free from it, but China is not hypocritical TYPICALLY, but the west TYPICALLY is internationally. Here lies the difference.

wow, you are amusing.

It isn't that we are sensitive to criticism, but that we do not accept insincere criticism from the un-confussing descendants of slave owners, Nazis, colonists and from the on-going invaders, war profiteers and national terrorists.

Half-hearted, two-faced, that is how we call them.

Paper tiger,

Your equating of "Westerners" with "white men" suggests you don't have a very firm understanding of the West today.

The notion of hypocrisy is an interesting one, and no doubt applies to the US, as well as most other states. States routinely fail to live up to their ideals, the principles they espouse and hold as their core beliefs. I can't see that China is any different, except in that it seems to hold different ideals from the West. If you would like to think that China is immune from hypocrisy, that's charming, I guess, but probably not very accurate.

Roaul,

Just saw your comment at me. A little late to reply, however:

"Westerners are hypocrites." I wish I didn't need to say this, but your behavior especially international behavior have deeply impressed me this way. Of course, not all white men are hypocrites regarding these events, but you TYPICALLY are, though not UNIVERSALLY. Here I draw the line.

"八国联军还是那个八国联军"

Well said! Only that they got a new name today: NATO.

The white men are hypocritical and shameless. The whole USA is the true Tibet, taken from the real Americans by killing them almost all and their culture. yet the white seem totally un-embarrassed here. I never figure out what is wrong with the white men. It is like they never change. Hopeless, perhaps.

Pomfret Must Go,

Instead of choosing a name, you sign with a demand that John Pomfret be silenced. Certainly, you are free to disagree with his column, and I would understand why you might do so. But the blind outrage and lack of self-reflection in your post suggests that Pomfret is right in some way. He states: "But now across the globe China is dropping in the polls. And it's not due to lack of contact with the Chinese, people who are polled say, it's because we're getting to know them better."

Your demand that any criticism you don't like be silenced (vs. debated, refuted, or lord forbid reflected on) gives Pomfret's article more support than he could, by himself, hope to muster. Your response deserves the name ugly.

Thanks, Anonymous. Love you, too.

既然你看得懂，写得来中文，那么我其它不想多说，只有一句话：八国联军还是那个八国联军，但中国绝对不是以前的中国！记住！

What I do not understand was why Chinese people are so sensitive to criticism? Why so many of them take it so personally? For this, I really admire their actions. As much as I admire how they have been raised and educated. But is this really good for the world in the long run? And why so many Chinese don’t think democracy is a good, if not the best, political system?

作为一个爱做梦的中国女孩，我是来感谢您的，谢谢您让察觉了自己的幼稚，以前我居然相信即使是不同环境下成长、具有不同价值观的人们也可以在人类共有的爱的情感下彼此理解、包容
too young, too simple

Thank you very much again, God bless you

刚才那句是我发的，和你们西方自由社会学的——“言论自由”:)

去你妈的

Hey, my suggestion:
go back to re-read Buo Yang's book "The ugly Chinese" again. Don't tell me u can not tell or feel the hidden meaning between the lines. Buo Yang's was criticizing something with a chinese heart! If u don't know this at all or even never read the book, just guess the contents by imagination, then your artical is totally groundless...

我的建议是：
回去再好好读读柏杨那本《丑陋的中国人》吧，不要告诉我你连里面的隐藏情感都看不出来。柏杨先生在写这本书指出一些中国问题的时候是带着一颗中国心写的！如果你连这个都不知道或者根本没好好读只根据书名来猜，你这篇文章就完全是站不住脚的。。。

Pomfret's article lacks the depth and accuracy in analysis. It is hastily made from shallow patches of unsubstantiated information. For example, the scuffle in Korea, the so-called "ship of shame", and the European poll and American poll on identifying China at the short list of enemy state. Worst yet, it grossly generalized the Chinese people based on a few bad apples.

Pomfret's provocative blog piece has helped no one but fanned the hatred and fear amongst people on both sides of the Pacific. As a vast country with a large agriculture population, China has a long way to play the catch-up game, including the so-called Public Relations game that the western country is so adept. If economic condition is correlated with the human rights situation, today's China in terms of how its people are treated is perhaps way better than the 1960s' US where racial segregation was still legally praticed. Yet no European countries stopped trading with the US. Also remember while China was selling ordinary arms to a sovereign government according to a contract signed months ago, US was perhaps no different if not worse in aiding Sadam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war, as Reagan proclaimed US "would do whatever was necessary to prevent Iraq from losing the war with Iran." What about Iraq's chemical warfare? What about Saddam's dictatorship?

Pomfret profited from his book sale on his "China Lessons" book and married a Chinese national who is still profiteering from a travel business in Beijing. It is nauseating to see Pomfret summarily lambasting Chinese as "Ugly" and menacing, while herding "innocent" American people over to his own fortune. If Chinese indeed is so ugly, why bother?

It is the West who has polluted the world for the past 150 years - now blaming China for those emissions; It was the West who sent the gunboat to China to demand "trade" and force the sale of opium made from other colonies - now blaming China for their domestic economic problems in the name of trade imbalance.

There is deep resentment in Chinese for all the hypocrisy the West is raising - China is not against other people in the world. For all the Chinese' failings and ugliness, it is better for Chinese to correct themselves. Bo Yang could criticize, Lu Xun could criticize. Kevin Rudd might be a true "friend who can dissent" and he could criticize too. Pompfret cannot, not even he was considered a fellow student in Nanjing University (like K Rudd once was), not even he is the son-in-law of the Chinese people.

China is a complexed story and it needs time to figure out its path. Just as Pomfret can lecture his wife how to run the travel business in China, China should be left to its own people to decide its path forward.

A word for Pomfret: you have sat so long here for any good you have been doing; Depart, I say and let us have done with you. In the name of Mei and your children, GO.

如果你还不真正了解中国就不要在这胡说八道
你没有资格评论我们
因为你比任何人都丑陋

可以问问你妻子，中国人的民族主义情绪来自哪里？主要来自于历史课本上的事实，中国从1840年以来就饱受英国、法国、德国、日本、美国、奥匈帝国、意大利、俄国、葡萄牙最明目张胆的侵略和抢夺，完全是不文明的、没有理由的，非常耻辱和痛苦，比如日本和俄国为争夺中国的东北的控制权在中国境内作战而，中国必须中立；英国为了他们的利益和削弱中国，与中国开战，打败中国后，他们用军队保护他们的商人在中国卖鸦片；日本人更不用说了，他们用中国劳工无偿地开采占领地的煤、铁矿等资源运到日本，并在东北大量种植鸦片；新兴的美国人也一样，他们也与中国打过中国并且胜利了，得到了不少钱。每次打仗都是西方人先打中国的，理由都很小或不正当，比如中国人没收了英国商人的鸦片，比如法国神父包庇其信徒闹事遭审判，每次打仗都是中国战败，每次中国都要赔款，都要割让一块土地，各国都在比赛，看谁在中国拿的钱最多，占的地方最大，到了十九世纪末，日本在马关条约要走了中国两亿两的白银，每个中国人，都得背上重重的债，这些钱相当于日本三年的财政收入。各个强国都在中国有租界，这是一种比殖民地更无耻的一种侵略，那里中国的法律是不起作用的，那里有外国人有自己的政府、军队、警察，东北、山东、上海、武汉……中国所有富足的地方都有西方列强的租界，更不用说香港、澳门、乌苏里江以北一百五十万平方公里的地方这些就完全是被强占的……这是普通中国人学的历史，而且这都是事实，去翻翻你们的历史书的世界史部分，也应该都是这样写的，只是你们西方人不关心这些，所以不知道。
在历史上，中国人一点也不丑陋，只是太弱太笨太傻太落后。
所以，今天的中国人天生就与西方强国有着强烈的对抗情绪，希望你能原谅。请注意，中国人的内心不是对抗世界，是对抗西方强国。
现在的中国人都知道那些西方强国国家行为的伪善，都知道他们是以他们自己的利益为转移的，都知道所谓的朝鲜战争、越南战争、格林纳达战斗、巴拿马战斗，海湾战争、伊拉克战争的核心都不是所谓的正义。
中国人的民族主义情绪，那其实是一种不安全感造成的，“落后就要挨打”是每个中国人都知道的一句话。知道了这种原因，中国人“丑陋”就是有原因的。所以，只要西方人表现出稍稍的不友善，就会引起中国人的反感，认为那是一种敌视的表现，就会引发中国人希望自己无比强大的意愿。
另一种让作者觉得中国人丑陋的是，作为一个最大的国家，它在发展，它的人民希望过上像西方人一样的好日子，地球资源有限，总会引起西方人的不安，对于这点，是没办法的事，有科学的方法来解决资源有限的问题，但也需要有竞争，看谁更智慧更勤劳。

This article comes out only for the purpose of humiliating Chinese, suggesting how ugly and xenophobic the author is. Pomfret lied, lied and lied again, no idea why such garbage got listed on wp to discredit itself...

I am surpised to see so many Chinese living in the west for many years like me turned to so called nationalist this time.Chinese by nature are mild and like to mind their own business.What made them so angry this time?West media is keeping lying and making fake news about China,for example,they use the picture of Napal police beating pro-tibet protester to say that is Chinese police.There are many evidences prove that the west media is lying to the world.
Why you did not mention that during Japan torch relay Chinese students were attacked by protesters and had serious injuries?Also why you did not mention that during South Korea torch relay the pro-tibet protesters attacked the Chinese students first?The students were forced to defend themselves.With arrogance and prejudice,you will never understand Chinese culture and you will never tell the truth about Chinese.
Stop brainwashing western people.
China may not as good as you thought but it is not as bad as you descibed either.There are a lot of sincere,generous,friendly people in China.

I am surpised to see so many Chinese living in the west for many years like me turned to so called nationalist this time.Chinese by nature are mild and like to mind their own business.What made them so angry this time?west media is keeping lying and make fake news about China,for example,they use the picture of Napal police beating pro-tibet protester to say that is Chinese police.There are many evidences prove that the west media is lying the world.
Why you did not mention that during Japan torch relay Chinese students were attacked by protesters and had serious injury?Also why you did not mention that during South Korea torch relay the pro-tibet protesters attacked the Chinese students first?The students were forced to defend themselves.With arrogance and prejudice,you will never understand Chinese culture and you will never tell the truth about Chinese.

To Raoul
Thanks for pointing that out.Thank God I didn't say "ALL",nor did I mean to.So if you feel hurt or insulted,I'm really sorry for that.

Papertiger and Disgusting Pelosi,

Anyone who makes statements like "all Westerners" are like X, or "all Chinese" are like X only proves that he is, as an individual, a complete dolt.

Hey papertiger.You are right!Thanks for reminding me.

Pelosi, I think you take westerners too seriously. They are just hypocrites as already edvident here. "Observation" was just angery at himself. Save your breath.

Hey Oberservation,
What a pompous and narrow-minded comment you've got there!But you are right about one thing,though.China will never rule,because she never wants to.As for revolt,I'm afraid that's not possible,at least in your entire pathetic life or your children's or your grandchildren's or your great-grandchildrens or... That's why during the recent earthquake,PLA rescuers went into the shaken area without carrying guns--a sharp and confusing contrast to your government's performance during Katrina.Mr.Cafferty's "nationalists,mobs,goons and thugs" is a perfect self-portrait,certainly suitable to you too here.So next time before you play China-issue expert,figure out this very simple Chinese expression:"Cao Ni Ma,Sha Bi!"

The Ugly Chinese is so fitting. China will never rule, they tried to step up to bat and lost.
Their ugliness in due to PRIDE which is why they will fail. No one on this earth will let the Ugly Chinese rule over them, so relax, play the games, and let the Olympics proceed. You are defeated before you even get to play in the game of World Politics. Your backwardness and stupid frame of mine of having to be told what to do in every strata of society will be your downfall. Besides for a country that was gaining economically faster than any other country in modern history, just who is getting all that money? Your still 80% PEASANT. How fair is that? How long do you think the poor of China will go on being the dirt of China? They will revolt and your Party Officials know it. Everyone knows the US in on it's way down, economically, but they are still a super power and China will never be. Russia is going to outdo you.
Stupid Ugly Chinese.

I always find it funy that westerners admire Lu Xun (or Bo Yang, Mr. Pomfret's "great Chinese philosopher"). As a Chinese myself, I either admire western culture or I don't, I would never admire a western writer who made his career by abusing western culture.

I found Pan Wen's blog deeply flawed: as a journalist himself, he did not do any fact finding about the torch-grabbing incidents in Paris/London, as well as the Korean scuffle. Much of what Mr. Pan cited have taken out of context. I am saddened why a journalist with good potential like Lao Pan could turn the back to the country who gave him what he is valued - the understanding of Chinese culture and the fluency of the language.

Unlike Japan (an economical powerhouse but henpecked under US), China is a fully potent country, vast land and huge population. Aligned properly and accepting the elemens of western style assertiveness, China could be tremendously powerful. The West fears China's rise because it may present them challenges and competition in every field. Just look at the atheletic competition. For a long long time, the gymnastics and diving events were dominated by a few countries US included until China joined the games.

Lu Xun heavily criticized Chinese people, as Pan must have read, and he is still sorely loved in China. It is not about criticism, it is in its intention. I found Pomfret's blog is merely aimed at arousing some sensation; not really helping with the much-needed frank, open dialogue between cultures and peoples. It did more harm than good. Perhaps he wanted to exonerate himself for his Chinese connections, to project a neutral image in the web.

My advice to Mr. Pan: quit this non-productive job and find other things to do. You can make a decent living without writing. Perhaps you can help Mei with the real business - to build the cultural bridges among the US and China. WildChina should expand its service to ordinary people not just business and intellectual elites.

Pelosi,

I actually don't think Mr. Pomfret is anti-Chinese. Saying that he is anti-Chinese is like saying that Bush is anti-Iraqi. Bush doesn't care about the poor Iraqis at all, he thinks of the benefits of USA only. Iraq just happens to be on him way... Same with "intellectuals" like Mr. Pomfret in the Chinese case...

...should any Chinese woman be blind enough to marry this ignorant anti-Chinese maniac.

Mr. Pomfret may end up a wife beater since in the years to come with China's steady reclaim of her traditional importance in the world, the only way to abuse China for a westerner like him is to beat his Chinese wife. :)

And many seemingly smart politicians good at throwing false charges upon their rivals are actually empty-headed bonebrains.

Anonymous,

Many of fascism's greatest supporters were highly intelligent, creative individuals. You sound very much like them.

I'm quite surprised to seee how obsessed that Jed Clampett is with the posts here and how firm he is to defend this racist article by arguing with a seemingly thorough understanding of China.With a closer look you may find his words are all groundless accusations,so basically they are his imagination,if not lies.Oh,boy,you are just as an inventive genius as John Pomfret,Jed.How much they pay you for doing this?
By the way,"Sinna" is a very racist term.You'd better watch your mouth,boy.

To "dream"

The nightmare of May 4th has been over, the older generations of 80s and 70s births are not aware of this because when you went to elementary, middle and high school, traditional culture was musch less accessible (the 80s births were a little better). After experiencing the west, China's superiority is very clear to me. In fact, I think comprencing all history (that is, putting the rise of the west in the largest historic setting), I am of the opinion that our China is the true great. Egypt and India have our duration but the strength. Roman, Ottoman, new west have our strength but our duration. This immortality is the gift of Daoism, the physical might is a consequence of Confucianism. I feel very sad for the generations born between 1840 and 1980 for they never truly understand China's history. I encourage you to look at China's full past but just stopping with the Opium wars. Our generation, in 30 to 40 years, will restore China's decisive superiority in all cultural and civilizational dimensions (including fundamental physics and mathematics though we are still doing poorly when compared even to India (Ramanujan is one of my heros)), but China's natural talent will change this. (For example, I went a middle school in Guang dong Countryside two years ago, all my classmates were those who failed the exames for better middle schools, but as it seemed to me later, they were already as intelligent as western college students. It is China's bad education system taking away creativity, but that can be changed.). I hope you can study China's culture and history again with a fresh mind.

Also with sites like this one, western world is slipping into vulgarity (for example Clampett is a typical pseudo-spiritualist but seem totlly un-aware of it himself) which is usually the sign of the decline of vitality of a people. As well, you should see this in the differnces between Chinese and western artists.

Many westerners feel that their world is a spiritually sick world, but they fancy that doing a wild surgery at China will heal themselves. A sign of deeper irresponsibility and foolishness.

This is my last comment. No more interested posting more under title "Ugly Chinese".

Hope you understand what I am saying and take it seriously (it took me $8 to type it out on cafe's computer).

The notion that there is, or ever was, a particular "THE China", as anonymous suggests, is...well, charming, I guess, in that I thought most people on this planet were aware of the myths we tell ourselves about our nation-states. I only hope anonymous has an inkling of the monstrosities that sometimes grow out of this yearning for the utopian moment.

To Clampett,

My appology. I don't have a computer, so I must pay to use those in cafes and bars when those in the library are not available, but I don't have much free money, so I must hurry before the time limit. I didn't have time for the proof reading for my last comment.

I thought I was respectful enough to write in your language. I guess I thought wrong then.

To who wrote "To Marsilius"

Sorry too. I wanted to answer in Chinese but no Chinese softwares were availble. Your Chinese was better than my English. My appology for the unintelligibility of my last comment. However, what I intended was the following:

Communists rulers in Beijing today are spiritually westerners for Communism is a western tradition. Most people over-look this fact including Chinese themselves. In this sense, they are similar to the Mongol and Manchu rulers, and who will be sinicfied. If I understood your term "yi wen hua zhi" (civilizing by culture)properly, then the Beijing rulers should be sinicfied first. One must remember, the Communist China is 60 years old, the Chinese China is 5000 years.

However, at this momment, westerners should feel secure since the mere fact that China today is Communist symbolizes the victory of western civilization already (like India as "the largest democracy"). China's comming epic is not the surface compettition between Democracy/Capitalism and Communism, but the return of the true China.

wow, does the PLA not have anyone left in it's disinformaion offices that read and write english in at least an intelligible manner? I mean, if you are going to comment on something, you should at least know something about it, no?

Did mother nature get you to withdraw your troops from the mountain kindom yet, or are you tempting fate and an even larger calamity?

To Clampett,

I am the fellow who wrote the story that you didn't like. I think you should be more inventive but repeating yourself. Many projections you have on me as well.

To the fellow who wrote "to Masilius"
Given China's limittation I think she is already doing when you said in a world that you don't even need to learn other language even when abroad. Compared to western countries, China is quite OK with "small" countries.

Regarding "yi wen hua zhi", you must understand that, Communism took over China which is a western ideology. Communist China needs to be "hua zhi" first like the mogols and Manchus had been so. Today's China is like the Chinese that you used that is a product of her not-so-good modern history, she is only China-like but THE China. So you must be patient.

To Marsilius

Sorry to cut in. An open discussion. Hope it is OK.

Was that directed to me, nameless pigeon?

Where was my what? 'gavornment'? perhaps you are too far inside your nest to understand and put two and two together... I don't belong to any of these governments nor do I lay claim to any of them. They have proven themselves to be corrupt and selfish, they will get their just desserts. Katrina was the test for the Bushney team. They failed miserably, with support from their republican allies, they committed genocide on the city of New Orleans by neglect and outright malfeasance. If they are not made to answer for their transgressions in the good way, the people will be made to suffer as well, since they had to power to stop it and chose to instead become spectators.

Certainly, you are not helping. You are merely trying to evade responsability by exposing the transgressions of others. Where you not taught differently as a child? Where you not born with the instinct to do right? At what point was it changed for 'me is the only one that matters'?
You are not helping do anything other than feed your own enourmous ego. Unfortunately, it feeds on your soul.
Not sure what business it is of yours what African-Americans are enduring. If I had an inkling that you actually had their welfare in mind rather than feeding your ego some more, i would venture to honor such stupidity with a response... suffice it to say. The africans living in america have a better situation than their brethern seem to be having to endure in africa... but if you would like a sign that their liberation aproaches as well, then we could ask for a sign... what do you think it should be? something that cannot be mistaken for coincidence, I'm sure. How about something that hits the exploiters as well as makes a statement.

LET'S SEE WHAT THE LORD OF RENEWAL CAN PRESENT YOU AS A SIGN?

What do you think would be appropiate?

to Marsilius:

美国老百姓不用学外语，可以靠英文找工作，国外的大学也没国内的好或方便。旅游或住在国外，会不会外语跟只会英文差不多，世界上有足够的人会英文，对我们很方便。

中国内的爱国主义教育系统和中央电视台缺少自我批评的后果不助于和谐的外交关系。中国越跟世界接触到，中外莫些问题会越多。这对美国也好，外国人更讨厌中国的政策，讨厌美国政策的程度该会减少。

说美国的政策如何，起码会有些美国人愿意跟你讨论，不会像中国人那样，一说中国，国家主义的反应就来了。中国人喜欢找借口避免真正地对话，说老外不懂中国或者会打各种各样的比喻来比较两个完全不同的事。可能中国人只会跟中国人认真地谈中国。

大国不允许小国或国外老百姓的批评，就不是个大国。如果中国想别国认同中国是强大的，它要能够接受小国或非中国人的批评。否则中国无法《以文化之》，西方人也会多点批评中国。《聪明》里有耳朵，中国人不听别人的意见不利于中国全面的发展。听和同意是两码事，但听别人也就是有对话的开始。

If Beijing were slow, it were slow regardless if the quake victims were Hans or Tibetans. US gavornment was different with Katrina. China's P.M. went there immediately. Where was yours then...

Certainly, I am helping. Thanks for reminding. Hope you helped your fellow African-Americans too.

You senseless fool, shouldn't you be out there trying to help your people rather than spreading a dragon's breath?

The Dalai doesn't need to tell me anything, his teachers are my teachers. I listen directly to the trinity and Gaia uses me as her mouthpiece.

How the CCP responds to this disaster will make all the difference. Either take care of the people as one should, not following the example of the thugs in Myanmar and Sinna will prosper. Follow the ideology of destruction, the extremism of oppression, and Lord Shiva will introduce a change that will force all to work together to survive. This will not be easy if it is forced to compell the leaders to the correct action rather than you listening to constructive guidance. As always, we are given a choice, how you choose will determine the response of nature.

Hey, American Gigolo,

What did Dalai Lama tell you about Katrina? Nothing too?

That was nothing... a few tornadoes, a pittance.

Wait till you see what's about to happen off the west coast.

Is Clampett Richard Gere? The dumpness is so similar, can't help to guess.

Jed Clampett ;

You forgot Katrina already?

Well, did you hear her speak?

What do you think a shaking like that will do in the area of the three gorges?

Treat the people of Tibet right, give them their autonomy, ability to follow their religion and prosperity in their own way, and they will pay your protection racket like the gangster you are, but at least allow them to lve in peace and dignity... or suffer earth's wrath.

Upon visitting wedsites of similar subjects I suddently realized why in USA the racist term for white people is "white trash"(since it sounds so un-specific). It isn't about skin color and race, but about the mind: "Ugly Chinese", goons, thugs, "axis of evil", "rogue states" ... and many more for many others. Besides the white men who else would like to invent these trash concepts and stuff them in their own mind with passion? and try to sell them to others?

No offense. Just an observation.

Perhaps I'm in a better position to make a point for my 15 years of stay in china. As a singapore immigrant, i may conclude from my experience with many chinese and my information from a variety of resources that:
1.recent event: you lack suffiecient evidence to form your opinion on Tibet issue. Tibet has been part of China since Tang Dynasty (so-called in chinese history, about 600 AD)THe opinion that Tibet is part of China to chinese people is deep-rooted as Paris is part of france.
2.As far as i'm informed, CCP never shall voilate individual right. But there are times when local governments fail to implement CCP stipulation, a consequece of China's centralized power distribution and extremely underdevelopment of basic-level democracy.
3.for a developing country vast in land and population, varied in ethical groups, the current political structure is the only solution for its sustained development and stablity. You need to be much more informed of the country's history and culture.
4.Chinese people are kind and less aggressive than we are, if you know them better. And their kids are terribly clever, especially in maths&natural sciences, if you actually do some teaching as I do.
5.I support Beijing Olympics. It has nothing to do with political opinion.

Wow, I would have never figured that out without the paper demon letting me know.
Since I didn't bother to read more than the first couple of lines, I merely know the gist of your writing, but it was enough to show the level of poisoning your mind has incurred.

It's quite funny that you would think me christian... an assumption made from a lack of understanding and a quickness to jump to conclusions. Normal for the beast, it has a 'brain' but no spirit, so it can't access wisdom.

Enjoy you misery demon. It's well deserved, traitor to your species.

To Clampett

Hear youself out. You are the Christian in my story. See that now? Stupid!

To Castro

I agree, the Oplympics is overrated, yet who is obssessing over it by attacking it now? Boring!

To Jed Clampett:

Thanks for the discussion, i rest my case.

1.) funny, ccp can 'reeducate' the population, but can't seem to be able to reeducate it's members out of corruption. While I think, depending on the harm caused by the crime, murdering the culprit is unjustified... unless his actions resulted in many deaths and he's callous and unrepentant, perhaps there are some who deserve this resolution, perhaps not. For a person to pay for his crimes, he must be allowed to atone. Killing him only perpetuates the negative energy by creating negative kharma within the individual. That spirit learned nothing and will keep it's bad habits into the next reiteration, creating more hardship for others in the next life. Besides, it's a false solution. By putting him to death, you ensure that the methods of his crime will be hidden from others and no one will be able to benefit from the information lost with his death. If truly he's been killed at all, I've known of folks who'd been 'put to death' and later showed up alive in the caribean enjoying their wealth. The answer is true reformation of the individual, not additional murder.
2)I do not wonder at all. it was rhetorical, It's not the people of Sinna that are full of vitriol for the west. It's the CCP that feels it must set the tone, so it uses the media to affect those that are easily manipulated. They are tipically those ruled by negative energies and that is displayed in their writings.
Friend, enemy, bystander, they are merely lables of convenience. if you want someone to be your enemy, just lable him that and eventually he will become that. In reality, those in control create these false competitions to keep the humans busy while they abscond with the natural resources and work on disconnecting people from their true source.
3) information? it's easily seen by the prepared statements and language used by the tools of the PLA to flood these boards with messages. Those of us who are still connected can read between the lines and recognize the intent behind it. Like anyone would telegraph their punches that obviously. Sometimes a bluff can be a loosing hand that puts you in the street without any clothes on.
4)I for one am glad that you can extrapolate the sentiments of a billion people from the limited contact you've had with a few people who probably are either well off and happy at what is being done because they prosper, all others be damned, or afraid to speak honestly in a nation where speaking truth to power is met with torture, hardship for the family and death.
5) There is no difference between the CCP and any other party in control in the world... perhaps a few exceptions in the scandinavian countries. They are clubs of wealthy men who lust for more power and are willing to sign a deal with the devil to achieve it. If you think that kind of person would be fair in any of it's endeavors then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. While you try to make the contention one between the peoples of two nations, as is necessary to get the populace to fight for you, the truth is the people have no quarrels with each other. In fact, if allowed to mingle, they find many commonalities and similar ideologies. The contention is fabricated by those who work behind the scenes in the contentious countries and expect to make a healthy profit for themselves on the ensuing chaos and scarecity. There's more to it, but I doubt you would understand or even try to accept.

This is one of the most narrow-minded articles I have read from a respectable media source. You should offer a side of "Freedom Fries" with this article. Wow!

To Jed Clampett:

I am encouraged by your post in respond to mine.

I gather you are a very rational person with a good heart and first hand knowledge of China. Very impressive.

Now I would like to make a few points if I may, for discussion sake.

1) power has been abused by the CCP government
officials and it's quite rampant, very
disturbing indeed. I have stated in my last
post: corruption. But the CCP has tried to
solve it with iron fist, the convicted
officials received much harsher treatment then
any other country ( some were sentence to death
). Will that be enough? time will tell. But
corruption is every where and in every country,
not only in China. Democracy and election is
not the answer. What can we do to stop that
is a universal question.
2) you " wonder why the extreme vitriol toward
west in China",that is not true. When I left
China 25 years ago, USA was #1 friend and
Soviet Union was #1 enemy. Time changed,
political alignement changed. But even today,
the way chinese people describe the
relationship between China and USA is : "
neither a friend nor a enemy; is a friend yet a
enemy". complicated staff( I think scholars
from US has a new word for it: FRIENEMY ).
3) you stated that PLA " willing to send this
planet into a conflagration of propotions
previously unseen on earth". I don't know where
you get that information. I do recall there was
a PLA general made a personal statement in Hong
Kong, when respond to media question, that if
war broke out between China and USA in regard
to Taiwan and if USA attack China, then China
will not dismiss the option of nuclear war on
USA. It only meant, my opinion, that China is
not yet capable to fight a conventional war
against USA because they are behind in
military warfare capability. In a poker game,
bluff is allowed, don't you think? in reality,
USA has many times nuclear war head then China
has and had threaten to use them. am I right
or wrong?
4) majority of chinese people do believe in CCP,
maybe you think I am naive.
I still have relatives live in China and I have
been to many places and met with all kind of
people and that's the impression i got.
5) the basic difference between China and western
countries in regard to international policy is
very simple: to be or not to be. to mixed
politic with business or not to mixed.
well, if you want to mix politic with business,
then you have to lead by example or at least
use one standard to treat every one. what's
fair must be fair. isn't it?

Hi Moral Paper Tiger.

I read your posting, it was very amusing. lol. It must lose a lot in the translation. Not really that smart using "christian" vs "mobster", probably better to use "politician" vs "labourer", or something like that or "rich man" vs "poor man". Would create more sympathy. It just reinforced that neither side understands the other, period. As from everything I gather, it is mainly the pro-China side getting heated at the amount of attention and the type of attention, not the pro-West side. In your story it is the other way around. You actually think that any country or that 99% of western people would even lose 1 min sleep if there were no Olympic's. The vast majority think the Olympic's is and has been a big joke for decades. It would not get 25% percent of the attention if it was being held in say Brazil, but China just adds that extra contraversy, and we have seen nothing yet. I know that someone else on the blogg mentioned that the word "sacred flame" is not a religious point, but something that is changed in translation. For it is not sacred in the West and odds are, this will be the last Olympic run ever as Canada has decided against it. It started with the Germans in 1936 and will end with the Chinese in 2008. Interesting run. The olympic's is only about the host, the IOC, the sponsers and some athletes. I have not watched sinse Barcelona and very few poeple watch that I know and only one specific sport they have interest in. Well time will tell, plus I gather your type of post is more about reenforcing one side, rather to educate the other.

Of course, how could I have missed... inadvertently you've touched on the crux of the problem.
You do quite well to equate the CCP with gangsters, that is exactly the problem.

A bunch of gangsters raised on oppressing and abusing it's people, making exhorbitant wealth off of their misery while at the same time accusing others of doing the same.

Perhaps you should ask yourself, what is it that is afflicting humanity that makes them think violence is the way to resolve misrunderstandings. Murder the way to save face. Enslavement a valid way of gaining power.

Power gained through evil means is merely an illusion and usually destroys they that employ it. True power comes from somewhere else.

Where's your soul at? do you even understand what it is, or do you just believe what others tell you rather than the truth that touches you from within?

You can't possibly be stupid enough to think that anyone would read the claptrap little storie you post in hopes of igniting discord and divisiveness. Or perhaps you are just flooding the boards to make that which bothers you harder to see.
Either way. Your era is over beast. Time to let the other side of the coin show it's face.

Since my comment under a different topic applies here even better, I am going to put it up here again. I hope the host doesn't mind.

A Gangster-turned-Christian apparently is trying to convert another Gangster, here is their dialogue:

Christian: You gangster are doing all bad things no good! You got to convert in order to save your soul.

Gangster: What you are saying about me isn’t entirely true. More truth will come out.

Christian: The whole world believes what I say.

Gangster: That’s because you control the world. However, even if what you are saying about me were true, you still can't preach to me like this.

Christian: Why not?

Gangster: You were worse regarding what you did to that red Indian girl and that black African boy. You were a white colonist and a slave owner.

Christian: That doesn’t count. It was only in the past.

Gangster: But the descendants of that red Indian girl are still going out to protest on your birthday -- every July 4th.

Christain: Precisely! They are free to protest! Freedom! Democracy! Do you have those?! Do you! Do you!

Gangster: You seem very forgetful, and shamelessly self-forgiving and self-congraduating. Well, however, you are still doing the same, see what you are doing to that Iraqi girl. You are an invader and a war profiteer.

Christian: That is different. It isn’t about me, it is about you, you!

Gangster: That seems very indifferent of you.

Christian: No! I am full of passion, My heart aches when I think of that poor Tibetan boy! I hate any injustice! It is my duty to do justice to this world!

Gangster: But that Hindi guy took Miss Sikk Kim too…

Christian: You shut up, I don’t know who Miss Kim is, the Tibetan boy aches my heart whenever I think of him! Behides, that Hindi guy is basically a good man but you are such a bad person!

Gangster: What!?... Why?

Christian: Because that Hindi guy is a democracy and you are not. Democrasy is good. No democracy no good, period!

Gangster: All democracies must be good?

Christian: Yes.

Gangster: How so?

Christian: Because they are like me.

Gangster: Man… I am almost wordless. So far, I must say that you are unreasonably self-centered and self-righteous.

Christian: Shut up! I know the Truth, God speaks to me! You don’t do what I say, I am going to boycott your f**king Olympics!

Gangster: ……Wait a minute……Gosh! Be respectful for yourself! The Olympics is yours! It is your tradition, I am hosting it for you to spread your culture. YOUR culture!

Christian: Mine is universal! Serving my universals is your honor! Failing it is your shame!

Gangster: So if a westerner hosting a Chinese New Year Parade, for whatever reason a Chinese guy doesn't like that westerner and pulls the westerner's pants off in public, you think it is the westerner's shame?

Christian: Yes, because he is embarrassed.

Gangster: It is the westerner's embarrassment indeed, but it is the Chinese guy's shame. For sure, that poor westerner is not going to do the Chinese New Year Parade again. Whose loss is it? Making the Olympics Ugly, yes, my embarrassement, yet your shame! Don't you get that?

Christian: It is your shame! your shame! I insist!

Gangster: Only confused, rude, and fundamentally un-cultured people would think and act that way. You seem very arrogant too. I used to worry how I could catch your guys up, but if this is the character and quality of your men, I am no more worried. Your men are no match of my men! You are no match of me!

Christian: Shut up! You are just such a bad person. And you are stubborn!

Gangster: You are a hypocrite!

Christian: I condemn you!

Gangster (angrily): I contempt you!

Christian: The contempt is mutual!

Gangster: Let it be!

(A moment of silence)

Gangster: Maybe I don’t need that stupid Olympics any more. I am going to cancell it. You will see whose loss it is.

Christian: Wait! You can’t do that either.

Gangster: … … How come? Don’t you want to stop it anyway?

Christian: I still need it to make money in you.

Gangster: Money!? I thought your concern was the Tibetan boy…

Christian: Yes, I still love that poor boy, my heart aches whenever I think of that poor boy, but we can talk about him some other time. It is about me this time.

Gangster: But… but…earlier you just said that it is all about me! The bad person…me?

Christian: It is about me now.

Gangster: So confussing… When will it be about me again?

Christian: I will remind you when I need you the bad person again.

Gangster: You are such a Moral Paper Tiger !

(The End)

To be envied and feared as much as the ugly Americans?

Hey, it's a compliment. We have arrived!!!

Well 'so it is', Hostility or contention is merely a function of indivicual perception. Believe what you see, believe what you hear, but realize that the way your feeling changes how the world appears.

In the west there are media outlets that offer nothing but disinformation. The national enquirer in the US is one such publication. While there are those who believe the contents within it's pages,there are others who look at it for entertainment, to laugh at the ridiculously absurd stories within. It helps us recognize when others are attempting to BS us. The couple of posts that appeared between your statements and this one are a clear indication of that.

I am deeply troubled by the posturing and verbiage being diseminated by the PLA. It shows that it is willing to send this planet into a conflagration of proportions previously unseen on earth merely because their 'feelings are hurt'.

I remember with fondness my time spent in China learning about the mind and body. It's people were very kind and quite generous even though they lived under an oppressive overlord that caused great suffering among the people. You see, even though the PLA sends it's tools to these boards and tries to equate the people with it's government, we have learned reality is much more nuanced.

My recent communications with emigres, escapees and students from China and it's 'protectorates' lead me to believe that generalized statement that 'they know what steps the CCP are taking, and they believe in the leadership of CCP from the bottom of their heart.' are either naive or somewhat deceptive. What i've been told is that they understand that the CCP has set up the opressive structure in such a way that any type of realistic discussion of problems is stiffled and eliminated. The CCP understands that a very effective tool of population control is fear. The beauty of fear is that you don't have to implemented on all the population, merely on a few and then present it to the others. They will avoid conflict because they know their contender doesn't know how to discuss things, it only reacts violently and opressively.

Now i don't mean to ridicule your last statement, but it just asks for further scrutiny.

'I like to take this oppotunity to point out one thing: Government like CCP is accountable for every action it takes because the government is not "elected" according to westen standard; but government like USA is NOT accountable because it is "elected"! Ironic isn't it?'

The CCP, since it is the only holder of power in the nation, has to answer to know one. It's complete control of the PLA makes it so it can set bellicose equipment and action on it's own people in it's own capital. People who were demanding accountability. They were murdered by their leaders rather than having their grievances addressed. What party leaders where put to death? Who paid by losing the wealth they had criminaly accumulated through party affiliation and abuse of power? just curious, perhaps you can elucidate.

In the west, political leaders are put to trial and held accountable for their misdeeds, and this is publicised because there is a pluralistic structure that allows many points of view and ideals. No one escapes scrutiny. Hopefully, soon we will see the current US administratio brought to justice for the crimes they have perpetrated. I guess it depends on how much the uber-wealthy that profited by the administrations actions control the media and therefore public sentiment.

Like you say,'When a person or a organization or a nation has reconized problems and doing the best to correct the problems, as a by stander, one should encourage the action with friendly advise, not to discourage with overly criticize comment.' which makes me wonder why the extreme vitriol towards the west in china. Sure, they did what humans have been doing for a few centuries now. Invading, exploiting the populace and resources, then left. Much was lost in this action. National culture and identity, language, knowledge and the ability to empathize with other's plight. Hard to feel for others when you yourself are in such trouble. But the west seems to have done pretty well to bring those nations up to modern standars, even though the exploitation continues in all nations, to all peoples. Why is the same logic that you begin with above, not applied equally to all participants... even in your posts>

Oh yes, I must now confess

- I am brainwashed by CCP
- I am agent of CCP
- I am typing at gun point
- I am so suppressed in China
- I am so admire your system of electing your president
- I am so admire your freedom of speech
- I am so admire your freedom of carrying guns
- nothing in China is good
- nothing in China ever works
- nothing in China worth anything
- China is too crowded
- China is air polluted
- China's highway must be paid to use
- China's milk is too expensive comparing with the west
- China has no flavourable cheese
- China allows smoking vehicles on roads
- China allows motorbiker wearing no helmet

You feel much happier to see all that, aren't you?

So funny to see pro-US people are not losing points in arguments. Now, what they can do, is to resort to branding people

- brainwashed
- secret agent
- stupid
- not living in the land of freedom
- not allowed to demo against Chinese government
- living in the west, go back to China
- blah blah blah.....

In their simple head and mind, against whatever government does, is very cool regardless right or wrong. Therefore, if don't say bad things about your government, you are bad too. Simple, isn't it?

Their argument is getting thinner and thinner, weaker and weaker. the westerners are sub-consciously brainwashed by their media without knowing being brainwashed. Sad, isn't it?

Some people even typing spanish. What a joke.

Las maquinas son sordas y ciegas pero sablen hablar, y hablar, y hablar. Aunque no entienden realmente lo que dicen. Deja a ese automatico y busca otro blog donde haya conversacion mas constructiva. A esos no se les puede hablar directamente, por eso que yo lo hago de forma indirecta con palabras que para su cerebro no tienen sentido pero para su espiritu trae un poco de esperanza. No permitas que cambien tu character con repeticion de tonteras. cuando veas que es lo mismo de siempre, sin intento de conversacion constructiva, ignoralo y metele materia que lo haga titubear en su pensar y su apoyo por lo que es malo.

Me parece que tienes una situacion economica bastante estable. Si quieres ayudar y invertir, lee a un tal Viktor Schauberger, es uno de esos scientificos naturales que aprendio de naturaleza. Es buena lectura, creo que podras comprender sus teorias.

Correction:
to; Jed Clampett, not Jed Plamette in my last post.

sorry Jed

To Jed Plamette:

There are lots of things that the CCP deserved to be criticized: corruption is the most obvious; widening gap between the rich and the poor; public health care system is very poor; pollution situation is pretty bad... to name a few.
But the CCP knows the problems and is doing a good job trying to solve the problems. Oh, almost forgot: the freedom of speech and media. True, China still has lots work to do, but if you compared now to 20 years ago, it's night and day and it's getting better all the time.

When a person or a organization or a nation has reconized problems and doing the best to correct the problems, as a by stander, one should encourage the action with friendly advise, not to discourage with overly criticize comment.

Why the chinese posters refused to criticized China? Because they know what steps the CCP are taking, and they believe in the leadership of CCP from the bottom of their heart.

But the most important thing is : in chinese culture , us comes first, me comes last.

I guess that's why you and most westeners feel confused and don't understand.

Most posters ( includs you Jed )are honest people, why can we discuss in a peaceful manner?

I like to take this oppotunity to point out one thing: Government like CCP is accountable for every action it takes because the government is not "elected" according to westen standard; but government like USA is NOT accountable because it is "elected"! Ironic isn't it?

And to follow up to my previous post. The logic that makes me think "I am fairly certain that SOME of the posters are official chinese government bloggers" is that with yours, mine and other "active" participants in this blogg are respoding to one anothers points, referencing and countering each other in what I had earlier thought was a constructed discussion while about 15% or maybe more of the posts are just standard, frequent, and appearing posts, that do not seem to respond to anything specific, if at all. Most of those responsible have for the most part went away and it appears to me that only about 6 or so have continued. Does the above seem logical? Over the past two to three weeks, the same thing has happened on over a dozen other article bloggs, the first few days there seems to be frequent and repetative postings that are either "word for word" the same or with very slight differences. Is this just random, that I have read probably over 500 posting in over a dozen different sights, with only about 8 to 10 differing points, with a handful of slight veriations, none of them to anyone specific or making any reference and seeming to me to be out of place in my experiance with similar bloggs in the past. My experience with political, cultural, historical, etc.... bloggs is rather extensive, meaning 100's if not over a 1000 different ones. The only thing I have not read on this one is people trying to get others to go to some dating, porn, or escourt site.

Thanks for the responses to my last post. Now a few words for Castro who apologized for the transgressions the West had committed against China. I retold a few historical incidents not to rekindle old grudges, but to provide a background pix for the so-called "tibet issue"---the Brits had their eyes set on tibet since 1880, the US since 1950s.

Now, about Castro's "sorry", I believe in your sincerity, thus I accept it in the spirit it was offered. I do not believe in collective guilt, but I do believe in collective responsibility. Especially in democracy, we choose the right path by choosing the right leaders. But unfortunately, even in a democratic system, the freely-elected leaders can lead us astray.

In the English language, "sorry", a simple, seemingly humble five-letter word , carries more weight than it seems. It is of noble nature. Sometimes it is casually uttered, other times it is offered with deep emotions. But always, it is meant to be a peace offer. As a gesture of goodwill, it can bridge separation, diminish misunderstanding, soothe hurt feelings.

Human conflicts ,whether among peoples or among nations, usually come from separation, with emphasis on differences and discrimination.It is the mindset of "Us vs them". Yet what connects
human beings is their similarity--the basic innate needs and emotions. The needs for food,shelter, security, love, dignity, acceptance,freedom from fear and want, etc. are
universal and connect us all in a increasingly shrinking and fragile world. Artificial differences in religion or in ideology should be regarded as life's incidental variations, not as inevitable obstacles in human relationships.

Unfortunately there are lot of strident emotions voiced in these posts. The "Us vs them" is a recurrent theme here. Perhaps in the final analysis, in a world damaged and exhausted by over-consuming, there is no Us or Them, only we, the common villagers shipwrecked in the same boat in the same stormy ocean.

Your "sorry"is refreshing among these heavy rants and emotions. It is a simple humble little word, yet its power lies in its humility. When it comes from the human heart,it touches the human soul.
Thus the potent power of the word "sorry"should never be slighted, just like we never dare to slight the magical power of spring flowers, rays of sun beams, or a child's smile that speaks of angels and heaven.

Hi, someone wrote the following in response to my post

"your proposition of many pro-china here are official posters are ludicurous, which says how much is the depth of your so-called "reason". you said pro-china side makes only limited arguments and basically repeating the same thing. Funny! Your side has been repeating the same thing on tibet for quite half a century and i don't see anything new added recently."

vs what I said

I am fairly certain that SOME of the posters are official chinese government bloggers, as there are to many repeats of the same message and there seems to be a limited amount of arguments THEY make.

Please reread what I said. I said SOME, which is logical as I went off and said the repetition of SOME bloggers as is my experience on many other bloggs. How does SOME turn into MANY or ALL on the pro-China side? Plus I said THEY, refering to the SOME? Now I would have expected you to respond that the same can be said with Pro-west and I would COMPLETELY agree with you, as I have stated that the back and forth with the same point is not helpful. The main thing that I now think, is this is completely an issue of pro-China vs pro-West to you, nothing in the middle? I have NEVER made any reference to Tibet or Dali Lama being right and China CCP being wrong. Nor did I ever point fingers, ever. I conseded your point on health factors being a hinderance on Han and I appriciated the insight. I also defended chinese posters "Some have/do" and I was just saying that I think that the perception that all chinese never say anything negative about China was false, then I went on and said in fewer words that the reason some people may think that is because I am "fairly" certain that there are SOME people posting over and over again, and you can not 100% tell me that it is not possible that there maybe a link to CCP. Please reread my original posting.

Now if I acted like the pro-China bloggers I contend are flooding the bloogs, I would say "The native and slavery issue is the Wests internal affair, so mind your business as you are hurting western feelings." That point was very low for me and I did not want to make it, but I felt a stong pointed needed to be made, even if I myself do not agree with it. You making reference to that SICK FU** in Austria as if it is only in the west or typical of the west or the tipe of the Ice Berg was a Very low point from your part and very similar to someone previously making a link to China's preceived misdeeds having caused the outbreak among China's children. Do we really want to sink so low that we can site and point that type of fingers, as this can go behond our lifetimes.

Castro wrote: "Some have/do. I am fairly certain that some of the posters are official chinese government bloggers, as there are to many repeats of the same message and there seems to be a limited amount of arguments they make. Not to worry as they are actually doing the opposite of what is intended, unless there intent is to reinforce commonly held, western media biased reporting. They only reinforce the opposite of what so many of them state, Not understanding each other is mutual."

castro, i said in a previous post that i see you as trying hard to reason and to be disinterested and balanced in your arguments, which i appreciate.

from what i quoted above in your latest post, it's clear enough that you're just a "so-called". your proposition of many pro-china here are official posters are ludicurous, which says how much is the depth of your so-called "reason". you said pro-china side makes only limited arguments and basically repeating the same thing. Funny! Your side has been repeating the same thing on tibet for quite half a century and i don't see anything new added recently. as one poster named Debunk King well put it, if chinese refuse to respond to your totally repetitive charges year after year, then you'd say you are right. if chinese begin to respond like now, you'd say either we are ugly or we have limited arguments. What a LOSER you ARE!

A central argument your side put forward is the so-called Han Chinese flooding tibet, that there are so many Han Chinese there outnumber the tibetans, that Han Chinese dominate the local governance leaving no room for tibetan representation.

if you have read my previous posts regarding the background of why there are Han Chinese serving in TAR government you should at least begin a serious post reflecting on the validity of your side's proposition on this innundating Han Chinese immigration issue. I'm yet to see it.

Please use your reason and tell us: Lhasa is 3600 meters high, and there are probably even higher areas in TAR, the health risk is significant, and medicare system in the rest part of China is no different from a collapse, health issue is now called one of the three "mountains" crushing the back of Han Chinese (education, housing the other two). tell us, why any sane reasonable Chinese would ever think of going to live permanently in TAR given such formidable costs?

since you believe your side has loads of fabulous argument, please let us know how you reach the conclusion that Han Chinese is flooding in tibet? please don't tell me you read it from Dalai Lama's speech and or speeches based on his speech. he can't even reconcile himself with the figure he claimed reduced by Han Chinese with the current tibetan population census.

and to the extent that there are Han Chinese living there, tell us why you think they are not entitled to live there permanently if they choose so? if Han Chinese allow 1 million of South Koreans to live in China, using the very limited resource this land may offer, why can't Han Chinese choose to live in Lhasa if they really want to take the health risk?

who built those roads in tibet, Tibetan or Han Chinese? what do you think of the likelihood that large Tibetan labour would be used to build those infrastructures that provides convenience primarily to local Tibetans? If Han Chinese is the main or the exclusive source of labor force doing those terribly challeging road work, if local tibetans are using those roads to kowtow all the way to Lhasa to the Potala Palace, is there a problem of both ethics and morality (quoting Qian's insightful distinction)that Han Chinese are accused of planning cultural/racial genocide by tibetan exiles and all their western backers?

as to your question "who would pay for the compensation due to the natives in american and oceania", well, i know that Chinese should not pay for it, that's manefestly clear. You and your fellow whites pay for it, you all share a joint liability in this, as to how to divide this liability internally among yourselves, that's not our business. The Chinese need to remind you whites:

1. the liability to make up for your past sins aginst the natives are exclusively yours and you are a lot lot lot away from making your apology a genuine one, because natives are a lot lot lot away from the stage to live a life as comfortable as the UPPER-CLASS of your white race lives.

2. if you cannot make good your proclaimed "feel sorry" to the natives in financial terms, that's a debt on your shoulder; DON'T try to shift burden to anyone else, DON'T try to CONSTRUCT others as ugly so that your massive moral/ethical deficit can miraculously turn out to be massive moral/ethical surplus.

3. if you are obsesesd in doing the DON'T, then be conscious that we are not dumb, the world at large is not full of dumb people that can't see through.

To conclude, I would say the west has long suffered from a psychological problem. you need a super-psychiatrist but who sorrily is non-existent. it's just like that recently reported austrian father who locked his daughter underground for unbelievably some twenty years and screwed her through and through and even touched his granddaughter born out of such abhorring incest. the man appears fairly normal during daytime. his wife knows nothing. his neighbour know nothing. he's just a folk. and this happens in the beautiful cultured country of austria. on the social psychological problem the west suffers, this might be just one annecdote or the tip of the iceburg.

The Olympic flame reached the top of the world Thursday morning, carried to the summit of Mount Everest by climbers wearing oxygen masks to breathe in the thin air of the earth's highest point.

A 21-year-old Tibetan woman -- the youngest member of the expedition -- carried the flame atop the peak.

The climbers started their ascent at 3 a.m. Thursday (3 p.m. Wednesday) along the Tibetan side of Everest, known there as Chomolungma. Twenty-two of the 31 climbers were Tibetan.

Hi Jed Clampett:

"Do you ever wonder why the 'Chinese' posters on these boards never admit that china has done anything wrong?"

Some have/do. I am fairly certain that some of the posters are official chinese government bloggers, as there are to many repeats of the same message and there seems to be a limited amount of arguments they make. Not to worry as they are actually doing the opposite of what is intended, unless there intent is to reinforce commonly held, western media biased reporting. They only reinforce the opposite of what so many of them state, Not understanding each other is mutual.

Do you ever wonder why the 'Chinese' posters on these boards never admit that china has done anything wrong? Or how they always want to link the western governments, and the plutocracy that controls them, with the populace? Could it be they are trying to do the same thing western governments did so long ago? instill a hatred in the populace in order to use them to start a war between countries so that they can take advantage of the situation to enrich themselves and control even more of the worlds wealth.

Could chinese posters ever find anything of substance to criticize about their nation? The way young girls are brought into the cities to supposedly work and help their family and then exploited and abused perhaps? The way people are sent to re-education camps when they have views that differ from the party line?

People in the west are being brainwashed systematically by their government and media unconsciously.

1. when ethnic minority, in China, live on their own. the west complains that these people are second class citizen in China and being neglected;

2. when ethnic minority, in China, is being helped by promoting education, science and technology. the west complains that these people's identity and culture are vanishing and are not respected;

Not matter what's happening in China, it is wrong, therefore, China should pay NO attention at all to the west. This is just an excuse for China bashing.

One more way to illustrate how americans are VERY ugly and hypocrates.

In 18th century, during the expedition of the west america, tribes of Native Indian refused to give way. In this scenarios, what would happen?

pro-US readers will tell you, of course,

1. we gave them "freedom of speech"
2. we gave them "right to vote"
3. we gave them "representative in our congress"
4. we gave them "dialogue and peace talk"
5. we gave them "roadmap to peace"
6. we gave them "presevation of their identity and culture"
7. we gave them "blah blah blah blah blah"

Amazing, isn't it? In fact, Native Indian got nothing but rounds rounds of bullets and cannon balls.

Comparing with this, China's treatment to tibet was, is, will always be better than that.

"That means money."

How much money? Who will pay it? Most Natives died from disesas they did not know how to prevent and starvation, not direct killing. The Spanish did in most of the Indians in South and Central America, but now they are split into many different countries, that continued the oppression. The US as it is today was originally split between England in the East, France in the centre and Spain/Mexico in the West. Who will get it and how will it be divided? The US and Canada have special funding for Natives, they do not pay tax and they can setup special types of businesses that others can not on there land. There have been hundreads of small native protests and I know some in Canada have lead the courts to return land or additional payments. With regards to slavery, that is a different set of issues. How do you define slavery, who started it, who benefited it. The UN defenition inlcudes children working, prostitution and actual purchasing people as forms of slavery. How many countries today have slavery right now under such definitions? A day does not go by that there is not a child work scandle or prostution ring or actual the sale of people, especially women for wives or sex workers in this world. With past slavery, that actually originated in Africa, when the Portuguesse arrived. Slavery was a part of some African tribes, when they went to war with each other, they often took prisoners as slaves. Those African tribes would trade with the Portuguese for goods and in turn, the Portuguese would sell them to others or ship them off to Brazil. Then the Spanish, Dutch, and English got involved. People have this idea that the west invaded Africa and used force to enslave the local population, some did, but a lot of it was in trade, at least at the start. If it was all forced, why did not the west enslave all the Indians, Asians, etc... Well, maybe it was all a matter of approach or opportunity. The "new" world as Europe had deemed it was divded between Spain and Portugal back in the early 1500's. Portugal got Africa, most of Asia, and the Eastern Part of North and South America and Spain got the rest. They had the right to spread the christian religion to those parts of the world, but Spain took it as there right to control and conqure there part and Portugal took it as the right to create a monopoly on trade and domination of the sea. After about 80 years, England, France and the Dutch wanted in on it and the stakes got much higher. The sad truth, many see the history as the west exploiting everyone else, which is true, but the rest of the world sufferred due to the fighting in Europe between the powers there. They needed resources, money, land, etc so as to better fight each other in Europe and the rest of the world was forced to be involved . A lot of the western powers used the rest of the world as pawns. The Dutch convinced Japan to kick Portugal out due to the fast spread of Catholisism and fear that it created, yet it was about trade. The french and english used Native tribes as soldiers against each other, Spain just went on a killing spree, Portugal handed over a lot of its holdings to England for protection and fought the Dutch everywhere on Earth. Etc... Well, we do not need to be a prisonar of this ugly past.
Unfortunatly a lot of what happened between England/Spain/France/Portugal/Dutch/etc. in the past seem to be playing between USA/EU/Russia/Chin. The fear is that the players have changed, but how much has the game changed.

"That makes sense. The times they refer to Tibet leadership, it always seems like it is a communist party appointy, like Hu was in the 80's."

In fact, back in China it's widely believed that even Hu himself, when being the Party-Sectary in TAR in the 80's, didn't spend all the time there; he, too, had to move down the plateau to the plain ground for recuperation.

And one thing that naturally comes when most Han seconded officials have to from time to time move down the plateau for health reasons, you can imagine that during their absense who would be handling their job? I think not unreasonbale to specualte that a considerable portion of the job during their absence is delegaged to those of Tibetan ethnicity, since they physically can always afford to be there. While this doesn't lead to the inference that those of Tibetan ethnicity would play a dominant role locally, at least it points to the possiblity that those of Han ethnicity also don't a role as dominant as supposed to be in the West. Plus, one need to think about the level of education by the local officials of Tibetan ethnicity. If they are not educated in science they wouldn't fit to do the job of say planning for a telecommunication system in TAR- for the locals to view CNN say or receive a mobile call from their relative from Dalai Lama's Dharamsala in India. It's only natural that Han officials would play relatively leading role in such things for the simple reason that if Tibetans want to read science in China they'd better read it in Chinese language; as exile Xu Minxu analyzed in his pivetol book, Tibetan language is still lacking in its capacity to generate modern-day science terminologies; playing political correctness of language in things like science can be dangerous. Maybe in the long run Tibetan language is fit for studying physics, chemistry, but that takes time and investment, and for now, be realistic, if you want to introduce science and technology to TAR, you still have to rely on Chinese language as an apparatus, and the Han Chinese are certainly fitter to do the job- while this means they have to take a considerable health risk if they agree to work in TAR.

To Castro,

There is a difference between morality and ethics, I hope you understood that in my first "angery", "non-forgiving" comment that got your attention. As well, there is a differnece between honesty and sincerity, one can appologize (honesty) but never confesses (sincerity). Regonizing wrong doings on red Indians etc. is only an honest appology, one should not hide behind it from a true effective confession. The former only requires change of mind, the later heart. As it has been edvident that the insincerity and arrogance of the west in the past month or so stay the same. In fact, this is true Ugliness.

To Jian,

"Westerners should whip their media hard."

The issue with that, which is what in the end started all the debate is the following;
1) most in the west do not take the media very seriously
2) most in the west know that a lot of it is bias and speculation
3) there really is no mechanism to harm them or "whip" them hard
4) to shut them up would be a violation of free speech. Free speech is not necessary turthful, just free.

"But agreeing to move to live in TAR for say three or four years even with a higher salary and ranking I bet is always the last thing the absolute majority of Han Chinese would ever consider. A critical factor here is health. Lhasa is some 3600 meters high. The health implication is not just as simple as you feel some headache."

That makes sense. The times they refer to Tibet leadership, it always seems like it is a communist party appointy, like Hu was in the 80's.

The only three ways to "punish" western media is to ignore them or to boycott the parent company (CNN is owned by General Electric I believe, etc.) or to register complaints with the national broadcast agencies of a country

To Jian and Castro,

"Regarding forgiveness: The west has been unusually lucky, most victmized cultures to the west are forgiveful ones. China, India... are not revengeful cultures, and many of others, if revengeful at all, no more existent or too weak. 9/11 was already a very odd one."

Castro, "the good indian is the dead indian". If apology is really meant to be an apology, it should have come with genuine actions to compensate for the native's loss in America and Oceania and Africa. That means money. Is there now any, ANY, Indian native now among the top 500 richest persons in America? As a fair go, I think the Indian group, just by receiving compensation, should have long ago produced quite a few richest persons in the world, with the rest living at least a middle-class life. Is that the case now? No, and it'll never be. Because, for the simple reason, they are too small in number, therefore constitutes no formidable political voice, therefore can be left aside, while allowing a few cosmetic symbolic demonstrations for the native people's rights may even enhance the image of democracy. let the natives protest, because that'll lead them to nowhere.

Reminds me of living in La Paz for a couple of years. While I was lucky to be one of the unnaffected by the altitude sickness, many of the group I was with became very ill. Some could only cope by using what nature provided the Inca's with, coca leaves and lime. Interesting culture the Inca. Before they got sickened previous to the spaniards arrival, they had built a utopian civilization. They prospered for centuries, created wonderful art and handicrafts, developed a codified language of color paterns and pictures, eliminated hunger, enjoyed a relative peace, developed a system of health prevention and treatment including surgery. Man, talk about doing alot while we turn our attention to the benefit of all rather than the domination by the few, no?

To the Host,

Sorry, I hit the "post" button several times when there was no response... Please delette the duplicates. Thanks.

"But Mr Promfret is very clever. By accusing the counter voice as ugly, he put Chinese in the trap of damned if do, damned if you don't. If you argue against it, it proves you are ugly. If you are silent, you admit you are ugly. Many neocons in this forum happily pick up this trick conviniently when they are out reasoned. But they have one last trick in the bag, they can accuse you either CCP controlled, or love CCP. That's classic MacArthurism folks.

For the geopolitical circles both in US and
China, this debate serves up well to argue for more funding for projects with subject on the threats of the other side. For normal Chinese emmigrants around the world, this only perpetuate bias and prejudice against them among those who know little about China or Chinese culture but only hear news from the biased media. This starts to sound more and more like the fear mongering about the Jews many years ago. But you cannot convince these geopolitical fanatics with any facts, truth, or reasoning. Between self interest and truth, they already pick the side of self interest."

To Castro,

Regarding forgiveness: The west has been unusually lucky, most victmized cultures to the west are forgiveful ones. China, India... are not revengeful cultures, and many of others, if revengeful at all, no more existent or too weak. 9/11 was already a very odd one.

To Castro,

Regarding forgiveness: The west has been unusually lucky, most victmized cultures to the west are forgiveful ones. China, India... are not revengeful cultures, and many of others, if revengeful at all, no more existent or too weak. 9/11 was already a very odd one.

TO Castro: "- Tibet is a part of China, period. But, why are all the senior officials there not Tibetan? Some local representation is considerred fair and reasonable around the world, even Natives in the US have representation, etc.... With ownership comes a higher level of duty, if duty has been appropriate, then please allow free access to determine."

Castro, you are a man for reason, for sure, I think many here would appreciate this. I can tell you try hard to observe things in a reasonable disinterested and balanced way.

as to your point on native representation, what i can tell you, as a chinese, based on my information and reasoning capacity, 1. the Chairman of the Tibet Automous Region Government is a hundred percent of Tibetan ethnicity, notwithstanding the Party-Secretary of the TAR is of Han ethnicity. 2. I tend to believe that not a minority but a majority of the civil servants working for all levels of TAR government across the whole TAR area are of Tibetan ethnicity. Civil servants with Han ethnicity can't be the majority because these people are mostly sort of seconded to work there from their original posts in the Han regions of China. They normally would only be seconded to TAR for a few years. Salary would be much higher than their original post would get them, and they would also be promoted in administrative ranking if they agree to be seconded.

But agreeing to move to live in TAR for say three or four years even with a higher salary and ranking I bet is always the last thing the absolute majority of Han Chinese would ever consider. A critical factor here is health. Lhasa is some 3600 meters high. The health implication is not just as simple as you feel some headache. In the very important but regrettably untranslated work on Tibet-Han dispute authored by Xu Minxu, himself a political exile now living in Boston but with four year work experience in TAR back in the 80's, he provided some very alarming figures on this health implication issue.

In fact even those seconded to a post in TAR don't normally spend all the time there; they return to where they come from mostly for recuperation or extended holiday-again, the physical challenge is enormous and decisive here.

Han Chinese who choose to work in TAR either are born there or, if coming from outside of TAR, then mostly I believe are there because they simply can't have a decent chance to make a living in the Han regions, as a result of the cruel barbarious capitalism now surging every corner of Han regions, the most ostensible group of people benefitting from such capitalism being the privileged officials and privileged westerns plus privileged Japanese and South Koreans and Han Chinese from Taiwan.

Reportedly, by 2008, there will be about 1 million of South Koreans living (not visiting) in China, mostly in Beijing, Qingdao and Guangzhou. Remember ROK only has some 40 million people. Obviously, so many surge into China because life is good or even better here- for themselves at least.

To Castro,

I was only helping westerners to see how they are seen, and show them how to achieve their goal effectively.

Whether or not they have done enough to undo their wrong doings is judged not by them or me but the victims.

No, China is not doing the same crimes of the west. Westerners should whip their media hard.

Hi Jian,

"This is the only truthful, sincere, and mostly importantly, the only effective way of doing it. The west must confess sincerily in heart and in action first. This is the universal ABCs of ethics. So westerners don’t even know that?"

Many coutries in the west have confessed. None of the things you cited are secrets, Slavery, colonization, etc.. Not a secret. The atrocities against Native Indians are in all American and Canadain History books, 100's of documentories, etc... Same with slavery, same with Nazi's, same with a lot of them. Many nations have confessed and working towards forgiveness and if you do not know that, then that is unfortunate and perhaps you should alter your search to the area's of knowledge that would indicate that. You through Jesus in, Jesus tought about many things, especially forgiveness. You repeated the concept of "punishment" many times, you are not interested in forgiveness, just revenge, punishment and justifying your own anger. I am sad for you, you do not recognize the trap you are in. Second, most of those issues are specific to a region. What you suggest as appropriate punishment, considering most of the people involved are dead. Eye for an eye? What enslave the great, great, great, grandchildren of those originally responsible? Develop technology to bring back the dead and put them in front of a firing squad? Should we appologize on bended knee? I do not believe that there would be any way to heal some people in the world for the wrongs long since done. Helping others, asking forgiveness, never forgetting and working to prevent it happening again are the only real way to move on. China is getting attention because of the last one "preveting it from happening again." Even in your statement, by needing to confess to China all our Western mistakes, implies that China is on the road to making similar mistakes. Does it not? So despite your anger, which only you can decide how to heal it, your words seem to indicate you see China as moving down the path of repeating Western ills. "That way, China has no choice but at least listens." They would only need to listen if they are going down that slippery slope. I think we are making progress. Also about Jesus, God is the only one who can punish, so we will probably not know who is right and who is wrong until we die, when God gets to judge us. Anger only hurts you and if anyone thinks the west can so easly be "punished," good luck.

Entonces en realidad has aprendido lo que la vida es y lo has internalizado. Por eso que te digo que tienes luz interna que facilmente se expresa en tu forma de hablar.

No lo pierdas.

No es necesario creerlo para entenderlo. Yo naci en un mundo catolico, pero rapidamente aprendi la hipocrecia de ese grupo. Despues fui trasladado a un mundo semi-evangelico, butista, donde la hipocrecia de aquellos que usan la religion es muy evidente.

Nunca he sido religioso, siempre he sido espiritual. Se que entiendes que hay una diferencia. Como humanos nos aferramos a las cosas que nos hacen sentir seguros, (comfortable). Hace una decada tuve una experiencia en que no pude negar lo que se me mostro. Aunque no soy religioso, no me queda mas que creer en una fuerza mayor, y que esa fuerza que ha sido nuestra madre esta siendo corrumpida por fuerzas externas. usando a sus hijos como las erramientas de su destruccion.

Eres uno de los ultimos que mencione. Tira pa'riba loco. Continua con tus conocimientos de economia y sigue haciendo buenas obras. Dios quiera podamos regresar nuestro mundo a su antigua gloria.

"Los secretos de la naturaleza son muchos mi amigo. No descuentes nada antes de entenderlo bien.'

Well put. It is not the blind who can not see, but those who's hearts and minds are closed that are trully blind. I recognize that my eyes are closed to many possibilities (currently), but as long as my heart is open to hope and my mind open to knowledge, my eyes can allways be openned. The two greatest threats in this world are those who close both mind and heart as they will never change and always walk in a world of perceived darknes and those who have openned both, but were only shown one possibility, as they are doomed to do others bidding.

"Crees que el Dalai es la catorceava reencarnacion de un espiritu antiguo?"

I do not discount it, but to say a really believe would be a lie. I am not sure that it has much meaning for me, as it is not the faith I practice. Do I think reencarnation is plausable, yes, actual, not sure. I live by several rules in life;
- I do not now everything
- All people are works in progress
- If you do not grow as a person, then you are without purpose
- Constructive discussion leads to better understanding
- Life should not be about money/power, but personal growth

Funny, I call it... 'the leadership of all nations having been compromised by foreign invaders and the rest of the common man is merely along for the ride'

People don't care about the leadership's contrived divisions designed to maintain a state of tension in order to justify the need for a centralized government to control the populace. While those who are incapable of internalizing knowledge and unable to invoke wisdom will always be manipulated by these callous leaders. They now have the media with which to spread their dissembling to such an extent that almost no media outlets can be trusted, since they are owned by huge conglomerates that use them to maintain their monopoly on all industries or governments that use it to manipulate the emotions of the populace.

How do you think 5% of the population owns 85% of the wealth?

If I were a westerner and were sincere to help, below would be what I would say to Beijing (assumming honesty of western media, but it is edvident by now that their honesty is questionable However, for the sake of analysis, let’s assume relative honesty of western media at this momment):

“We westerners have committed so many crimes: slavery trading, global colonization, genocides, cultural genocides, Nazism…. you name it, we did it, and we have not even been punished yet. But we feel very bad about it, and things have not turned out good according to the law of Karma. Racial tensions, family failures, morality crisis… Even the word “white” sounds like a bad word now (at least in USA), morally we have already been being punished, our conscience tortures us….. So, if you, China, is doing or even just thinking anything remotely similar to what we have done, please do not do it.”

That way, China has no choice but at least listens. This is the only truthful, sincere, and mostly importantly, the only effective way of doing it. The west must confess sincerily in heart and in action first. This is the universal ABCs of ethics. So westerners don’t even know that? A murderer protesting at someone else for his not respecting life, a rapist protesting at someone else for his not respecting women, will that someone else respect the opinions of the unconvicted, unpunished murderer? Rapist? This behavior can generate nothing but mutual contempts at best.

As it is clear, westerners feel OK to protest as the murderer and the rapist described above, un-enlightened, un-embarrassed, un-convicted, un-punished. What does this phenonmenon reveal? It reveals: under the surface righteousness, westerners are still of the same arrogance (we are now “good people” since we are not doing slave trading any more, we therefore can criticise you, after all we are still better than you…), and the stubborn self-centeredness, in other words, the same illness of the heart that once made westerners white colonists and slave owners and still at this very moment war profiteers, and this is what hypocrisy means in a more fundamental sense if not a more hopeless sense.

Such simple basic ABCs of ethics, do we really need to teach it to westerners here? Is not the west supposed to be more “developed”? Where are the west's culture or wisdom? Didn't Christ teach that when the mob was about ot stone that poor woman, or, shouldn't Dalai Lama have taught it to his western admirers?

And besides, protesting is a very lame form of culture. Oganized rudness and yelling are still rudness and yelling. Should any people of intelligence really believe yelling at someone’s face will make a difference for the better? There is something called “communication” in human culture which takes sincerity and patience. But as it is edvendent now, westerners know only two things: going to war and going to protest. Impatience, if not Stupidity, this is what I call it.

Personally, I've had the joy of working with children wiser than most elders I know. These kids learn things above and beyond what they are taught. Sometimes I try to trick them and they catch me everytime. It is almost as if they already knew these things and they are merely doing a review, sometimes even correcing their teachers. These kids give me hope for the future and should be helped every step of the way.
Don't be fooled, some ARE born with knowledge and wisdom.
Some spirits are recycled though they don't get to keep the memories of their former bodies, their experiences are recorded in their spirit(much harder to access but has it's effects by way of kharma). These the enemy of man will never be able to turn to their side. They have seen what the Earth was like before it was overrun. They understand what prosperity and happines is all about, they thirst for freedom because they've known true freedom before.

The comments that Castro highlights are an attempt to obfuscate debate, stiffle harmony and create dischord, nothing more, nothing less. The people that wrote them have no greater good at heart, only their own selfish interests. They will cite history, as if any of the past matters when there is no future. They will cite other's transgressions in order to justify their own and give themselves the impetus to act in even more horrendous ways. They recognize those actions in others as evil, yet when they use them, they are oblivious. They will fight against anyone they perceive as using these tactics like rabid dogs, because they understand why they use the tactics and would not allow others to use on them.

Even though the warnings have been distorted, ridiculed, obfuscated and dissembled, nature has tried to warn us of our dilema for a long time. Ancient religions, just like the modern ones, warn of impending doom at the hands a deceptive invader intent on enslaving humanity. Why is it, with all the evidence that this is so; Mugabe's enslavement of his people, Burma's refusal to warn their people of the approaching storm, Americas wealthy causing the collapse of world economy at the time when it is most harmful, do people not wake up and realize their world and way of life is being threatened?
Are they truly so myopic as to think it merely the acts of a suicidal species?

algunos nunca internalizan el conocimiento y nunca desarrollan sabiduria. Otros, desde ninos demuestran sabiduria mayor a su edad pero nunca internalizan conocimientos. Aun otros mas son capazes de internalizar conocimientos y nunca convertirlos en sabiduria. Y despues estan aquellos que nacen con ambos. Los espiritus antiguos son de esta clase. Algunos nacen encendidos, a otros se les requiere algun evento o emocion que los active. Los secretos de la naturaleza son muchos mi amigo. No descuentes nada antes de entenderlo bien.

Crees que el Dalai es la catorceava reencarnacion de un espiritu antiguo?

"no te metas Fidel, no es contigo. Tu tienes la luz de espiritu y eso se refleja en tus palabras y la forma en que te expresas. Esas otras criaturas no entienden que lo que hacen tiene consequencias."

I understand, but no one is born with wisdom or knowledge. Everyone one is a work in progress and those who will not at least listen and try to understand will eventually face the consequences. These forums can be used for constructive exchange of ideas, unfortunatly from both sides some of it degerates to insults, hostility, facts/figures manipulation, finger pointing, redoric, etc.... None of those things will do anything more than renforce the other sides resolve.

The below are examples of what is not constructive;
- Americans are ugly, Chinese are ugly, West is worse than China, China is worse than America
- America had 20,000,000 million slaves (is that at once or throughout?), the CCP is responsible for the deaths of 30,000,000 chinese during cultural revelution, etc... Numbers are distroted and manipulated to make points
- Why American's do not protest Iraq, they do very much, this article is not about Iraq
- This is China's internal affair, not a point or valid, as this article is for western discussion to determine what we think, agree or not, and if so, what is our response. Some may stop buying China made products, others simply will not care. This is to insite a general discussion of our relationship given the context of recent events
- the west does not understand China, not valid as well, as it can be turned the other way, China does not understand the West. Plus, it does nothing to educate the west on china, not like the average chinese knows more than what is happening in the world then the average American, history education is bias EVERYWHERE. Understanding is a cop out and nothing more than an opinion. Make the statement and try to educate.
- repeating the same slogan over and over is pointless, if you did not convince anyone the first few times, then what makes you think the 4th or 5th time will work? Try another approach.
- If you have never been to a place, you can not trully know a place or comment, again not very relevent, I do not have a time machine and still I and others can make there own personal evaluation on any number of a million events in history. I am pretty sure no one is around from the slave trade times, yet people still make comments.
- Siting treates, not like no one has ever gone back on them or treaty points have been used against those not involved. Leave this one to the diplomat's
- history should not be used to justify the future

From my point of view the situation is the following;
- All media are bias
- There is some distortion on reporting, do to lack of access, information limitations, and those who are very malisious
- the Olympic's has always been political to some extent and both sides are equally using this for political gain
- There is a lot of uncertainty in the world and some in the west are looking to switch focus, distract, place blame, etc.
- There are shifts going on, China is growing, to what extent is only speculation right now. They may overtake the US, they may eventually tailer off like every nation in history. How much will they rise, uncertain, not even the CCP knows, they are actually very nervous about it themselves.
- China made promises to improve human rights and personal freedoms 7 years ago, it was part of them getting the Olympic's, this is true, the debate is to what extent did we expect, to what extent have they, and what is "reasonable"? I believe the wests expectaion was not reasonable, but that all indications is that China over the past year has taken a couple steps back
- Tibet is a part of China, period. But, why are all the senior officials there not Tibetan? Some local representation is considerred fair and reasonable around the world, even Natives in the US have representation, etc.... With ownership comes a higher level of duty, if duty has been appropriate, then please allow free access to determine.

John Pomfret's hypocrisy, crass ignorance and outlandish claims make me wonder if he had a hand in the fraudulent, libelous accusations of "crackdown on protesters in Tibet" by reckless "reporters" or "journalists" from the BBC, CNN and some other American/European propaganda machines.

We may all be connected by the material world, but what is happening in China is that they are disconnecting the population from the spiritual connection they have with humanity, with spirit.

The harsh voices from the Chinese perspective, with a few exceptions, almost invariably speak in terms of economics, dependancy and entitlement. Their words are filled with acusations, implausible defense, redirection, and dissembling. Who uses these tactics? Why are they used? Is China's position and posture towards Tibet one of a comprehensive, diverse, empathic government or that of a despotic overlord? Why did ancient emperors use buddhist monks as advisers, rather than the modern use of bootshiner?

Earth can move the common people to act against any government, in any capacity. The machines may be able to manipulate some with their media and inflamatory language, spirit can move billions simply by speaking directly into their hearts. All that is needed is an open heart and mind to hear her. Seems the dragon that has China in it's grip is deaf to natures voice as it is to the clammors of it's own people.
Shameful, utterly shameful.
Wake up and protect your planet, you fools.

The main reason for all these bashing and name-calling, is that the West still does'nt understand China.

The West is still China's most important customer.
We're all connected.

The the main pillar of Mr. Pomfret's arguemnt is an incident of Chinese student protest in Seoul. That occurred in a heated protest, nothing stands out comparing with most protests around the world with frictions between protesters of different sides and between protesters and police. Nothing comparing to the animal acts of Abu Ghraib or the brutal bombing of Iraq innocent women and children. To compare the ugliness between the acts is false. Bo Yang's book is self critique within Chinese themselves. There are plenty of self critique going on in US and in the west in general. The ability to self critique is evidence by itself that these people are not ugly. Ugly is just a media sensational word. To characterize Chinese people or American people in their entirety is absurd.

But Mr Promfret is very clever. By accusing the counter voice as ugly, he put Chinese in the trap of damned if do, damned if you don't. If you argue against it, it proves you are ugly. If you are silent, you admit you are ugly. Many neocons in this forum happily pick up this trick conviniently when they are out reasoned. But they have one last trick in the bag, they can accuse you either CCP controlled, or love CCP. That's classic MacArthurism folks.

For the geopolitical circles both in US and
China, this debate serves up well to argue for more funding for projects with subject on the threats of the other side. For normal Chinese emmigrants around the world, this only perpetuate bias and prejudice against them among those who know little about China or Chinese culture but only hear news from the biased media. This starts to sound more and more like the fear mongering about the Jews many years ago. But you cannot convince these geopolitical fanatics with any facts, truth, or reasoning. Between self interest and truth, they already pick the side of self interest.

You merely give evidence that the enemy of man is alive and well on earth and playing it's puppets for all it's worth. As we've devolved in the last couple of millenia, some have recognized the problem. Wise men through the ages have worked within the structures set up by our enemy, and persevered. Even though so many around them are infected, they wait patiently and do good works in hope they will be rescued by the mythical Hero. Has he arrived yet? what is her mission? Does she need to awaken the people and expose their plight for what it is?
Does he come with the sword of a warrior or the staff or a teacher? While in the west we still have hope and the certainty that better is possible. The interesting thing is that in the west, things are done to identify, expose and erradicate those that support the beast. In China, people are re-educated into accepting that the beast is all there is.

How would China react if Earth decides to take back the Three Gourges?

To pro-US readers,

Do you know there were 20,000,000 African black slaves traded to North America for the past 300 hundred years, in an absolutely inhumane way?

Do you know, in USA, racial segregation was on until 60s, 100 hundred years after US civil war and 200 hundred years after indepandence? What a shame in the land of freedom. God, I know this history otherwise, hypocrates brand themselves saints and lecture others about freedom. Uuurrrrrhhhhhh.

Do you know, in USA, native Indian were being slaughtered until 20th century. 5,000,000 native Indian purged? They are now second class citizen in USA. Shooting Indian like chicken, were shown on Hollywood movies, and US people learn history in cinemas.

Do you know, innocent Iraqis and Afgans, mainly women and children died, killed by US military EVERYDAY. Iraqis and Afgan people are thanking USA for giving them freedom. Am I dreaming now? Or Am I in a coco land or what?

Do you know, wherever US military stations, sexual abuse of local girls often happens. Nice NOT to have them stationed in the soil of China.

Do you know, during China's cultural revolution, people killed each other with arms. This was the same as in US's civil war where US people killed their own people in their tens of thousands.

How on earth China is more ugly than USA?

Correction,
Chinese do not speak English. These folks are pro-China Chinese Americans. Or American educated Chinese. Yup, our tax dollar educated these folks. What is wrong with that. We really gotta check our educational system that is pumping out drop-outs and Communist supporters. Vietnamese here fight for human rights back home. Burmese too. Tibetans. But no Chinese are proud of their Communist Party, authoritarianism and is ATTACKing basic bill of rights. Even UN has universal declaration of human rights which if you ever bother to read it.

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Chinese failed even the Article 1. They don't belong in UN and they really need "educated" elites to free themselves from authoritarian rules. But no, even US educated Chinese are gladly waving Red China flag and in full support of their "so-called" government and are willing to be violent to suppress freedom of speech.

We, the people, are liberated people. I am angry at the pure concept of Communists flag waving Red Chinese "freely" walking around my neighborhood. It just doesn't make sense. They belong there if not, I do believe we still have communist party member registration at FBI.

Correction,
Chinese do not speak English. These folks are pro-China Chinese Americans. Or American educated Chinese. Yup, our tax dollar educated these folks. What is wrong with that. We really gotta check our educational system that is pumping out drop-outs and Communist supporters. Vietnamese here fight for human rights back home. Burmese too. Tibetans. But no Chinese are proud of their Communist Party, authoritarianism and is ATTACKing basic bill of rights. Even UN has universal declaration of human rights which if you ever bother to read it.

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Chinese failed even the Article 1. They don't belong in UN and they really need "educated" elites to free themselves from authoritarian rules. But no, even US educated Chinese are gladly waving Red China flag and in full support of their "so-called" government and are willing to be violent to suppress freedom of speech.

We, the people, are liberated people. I am angry at the pure concept of Communists flag waving Red Chinese "freely" walking around my neighborhood. It just doesn't make sense. They belong there if not, I do not we still have communist party member registration at FBI.

Dynasties and political ideologies will come and go, but Chinese culture will always endure.

Perhaps one should ask the first born of Egypt wether the children of the opressor are a fair target.

The PRC did not think twice about how it frightened the children of Tibet when they decided to bust through their doors in the middle of the night and drag away their fathers for re-education because of the crime of having a picture of someone they consider sacred. That which slept has now awakened and found it's children destroying it's creation. Now it must correct things. Question is if the children deserve compassion or force. The rule is... treat others as you wish to be treated. The PLA has shown how it wants to be treated by the way it has treated the people of Tibet.

It is still within our power to help earth heal, but first we must help heal it's people. Otherwise, earth will reduce human mass the only way it knows how. Don't try to assign it human values or considerations, it doesn't care, just like you don't care there are microbes in your belly that help you digest your food. To them you are God, yet if they were not there, you would not exists. Likewise, without you, they would not exist. Listen to the philosophers and sages who have brought you the wisdom of the world and the methods of prosperity and happiness. Implement those things quicly and at least show the intent of a desire for healthy change, rather than a violent restructuring of the existing paradigms.

no te metas Fidel, no es contigo. Tu tienes la luz de espiritu y eso se refleja en tus palabras y la forma en que te expresas. Esas otras criaturas no entienden que lo que hacen tiene consequencias.

It appears many pro-Beijing Chinese have commented here. Their participation is needed in this discussion, and I welcome it. However, the tone and content of their comments provide further evidence of a dangerous nationalism existing among many Chinese. I would hope that these patriotic men and women would turn their energy towards reforming their autocratic government instead of rattling their sabres at foreigners.

NOTE TO THE EDITOR:

You MUST divide the comments into different web pages when they reach into the hundreds. Scrolling is impossible, and those who are unable to afford a fast internet connection will have difficulty reaching the comments page.

JJ:
What about those soccer hooligans that start fights in Europe every year? Why don't you write a article titled ugly Europeans? Don't you think it is childish to generalize a country by actions of few of its young citizens? It is like saying all Americans are polygamist because there are few cults like that in Texas.

I agree with JJ.

I understand why people are upset with some issues related to the Chinese government, but am outraged that the same people are not equally vocal about their own governments. If the US wants to create a distraction from the war in Iraq, steering the media to anti-China sentiment is both easy and predictable.

JJ:
What about those soccer hooligans that start fights in Europe every year? Why don't you write a article titled ugly Europeans? Don't you think it is childish to generalize a country by actions of few of its young citizens? It is like saying all Americans are polygamist because there are few cults like that in Texas.

I agree with JJ.

I understand why people are upset with some issues related to the Chinese government, but am outraged that the same people are not equally vocal about their own governments. If the US wants to create a distraction from the war in Iraq, steering the media to anti-China sentiment is both easy and predictable.

Did u know Tibet was once a warrior nation before it became feudal and agrarian?

If you are American, you should be championing those natives closer to home who suffered more in your own backyard, rather than fighting for a faraway land.

"Now China's children are suffering from foot, hand and mouth disease. HMMM!!! almost prophetic, don't you think? Perhaps this is how nature responds when you assault those monks that have the last remaining link to her"

This type of thought should be beneth everyone. There is no reason or link or anything to the harm that is being done to the children. Even if your logic were relevent, why would nature attack children vs adults, when it is adults that do harm to nature or each other. I know nature is cruel, but any force that would do such a thing is not worthy of worship. This is not "balance" in any form. Anyone can twist natural events, next you will say Burma's oppresive government brought the Cyclone???? Indonesia suppression of East Timor brought the sunami a few years back, Earthquake in Pakistan was do to some people supporting Islamic Jihad??? None of that makes sense, except to a bully, is nature a bully, is god? Not in my heart. Things have a more logical explanation. Do I think more pollution will lead to more natural issues, yes, but to try and make a connection like you did is offensive, even to the monks of Tibet.

To Jed Clampett: So much hatred in your posting. Are you also pretending that you are a Dalai Lama-loving Bhuddist or christian.

Some people prefer the world to have one good superpower, who does not act unilaterally.

Others prefer a multipolar world order, so that no one gets too aggressive.

How about that...

China stretched out their hands and stole the mountain kingcom like a vile thief. Assaulting with force of arms an unarmed agrarian nation.

With their opressive boot they stomped down peaceful demonstrations by monks, scholars, requesting and audience and redress for their grievances as allowed under chinese constitution.

In response to the world population's support of the people of Tibet the Chinese government sent out it's voice via the media, internet and diplomatic channels to spread lies and disinformation, poison and bile, aggression and divisiveness.

Now China's children are suffering from foot, hand and mouth disease. HMMM!!! almost prophetic, don't you think? Perhaps this is how nature responds when you assault those monks that have the last remaining link to her.

Perhaps China's leadership should rethink it's greedy and violent ways.

Jesus Christ: Stone that woman! Stone that woman! She's Ugly!

Dalai Lama: Good job! ... But don't kill her.

Chairman Mao: Pretty spiritual paper tigers!

Confucius(slap Chairman Mao at the face): Silence!

Pharaoh Khufu: Longevity isn't always a blessing.

Paris Hilton: It is! it is! Chinese ugliness is so sexy these days! So Cool!

More on the recent enterovirus outbreak in China:

Associated Press

BEIJING (AP) — New outbreaks reported Tuesday in three Chinese provinces and Beijing put the number of children infected with hand, foot and mouth disease above 12,000 and the death toll has risen to at least 26 across the country.

The official Xinhua News Agency said outbreaks in southwest Yunnan, the northeastern province of Jilin and the tropical island of Hainan, putting the total number of infections at 12,164.

Two kindergartens in Beijing were temporarily shut down Tuesday after children there showed symptoms of the disease, Xinhua said. There have been 1,482 cases in Beijing, most in kindergartens, it said.

At least 26 children in China so far have died from the disease. Twenty-four of the deaths, in the central province of Anhui and Guangdong province in the south have been blamed on enterovirus 71, one of several viruses that cause the disease, Xinhua said.

Two other children — one in Guangdong and another in the coastal province of Zhejiang — have also died of hand, foot and mouth disease but it wasn't immediately clear which strain of virus killed them, it said.

Although nearly all the deaths have been blamed on the virus known as EV-71, it was not immediately clear how many of the overall infections were traced to it. Xinhua said in Yunnan only nine of the 113 cases were caused by EV-71.

The hardest-hit areas include the provinces of Anhui, Guangdong, Zhejiang, and the capital Beijing. There have been smaller outbreaks in Hebei, Jiangsu, Hunan, Hubei, Shaanxi, Jiangxi and Henan provinces and in the city of Chongqing.

Xinhua said the jump in cases was due in part to a new regulation from the Ministry of Health classifying hand, foot and mouth disease among those that have to be reported to the central government.

Follow-up

Do not forget about India, or the direction of Islam, or any number of a 100 different possibilities that may happen. The US is following, not yet and when powers fall, it usually takes decades. Back to "first" MEGA POWER. English Empire anyone, Spanish conquest anyone? Mandarin is the #1 language in the world, but 98% live in China. English and Spanish is official in well over a dozen countries, if not a lot more and with Spanish, is not that far behind. China's economy would have to more than triple to match the US and today's financial issues is not much difference from a half dozen other financial crises the US has had and survived. Savings and Loan's anyone? People forget the past when things get good and are unprepared when things turn bad, nothing more. As long as the US has Canada for resources, Mexico for labour, EU/Japan for financing and Russia/China to argue with, they will have all that is required to keep their dominance in tact. Yes, I said EU/Japan for financing, EU holds almost 4 times more of US debt than China and Japan over 1.5 times. Hell the middle east holds about as much as China.

...since as Mao said "power grows out of the barrel of a gun".

That's Mao's version of "Might is Right" and it is still true on the world stage.

Tibet is in China the control, deal with it.

"They are on the very verge of becoming the only Mega Power this world has seen and they will have the money to sustain it."

Mega Power, are we creating new terminology. Power, World Power, Super Power, Mega Power, Ultra Mega Power or Mega Mega Power or Ultra Super Mega Power or ? Please, money to sustain it, it has a ways to go, as the same had been said about Japan in the 80's, and USSR in the 60's. China represents about 20% of the worlds population but only about 7% of the worlds wealth. Eventually they will level off, like everyone does. Everyone forgets the US grew like crazy for decades, same with South Korea, Japan, etc... This is another economic cycle, like all others in the world, with ups and downs. The numbers effected are higher, but many fail to forget several very important points, natural resources are limited, odds our we will either starve to death, get a huge epedemic, war for resources or just run out of resources all together. A lot of the media is focused on China and the media as many have pointed out, is often wrong and misleading. China's GDP per Capita is approx $6,000 and that takes PPP into account vs nominal. In about 5 years growth will be harder to come by, eventually all countries stagnate, it is just a matter of time. Simple economics, you can only grow for so long, based on available resources and human capital, unless we find another world, the world will be hard pressed in about 30 years, if not sooner. Second, people forget about several wild cards, Brazil increasing its dominance in South America, Russian ambitions (they sure know how to fight), EU anyone??? Everything right now is pure speculation, so please save the Mega Power talk, the future will be the decider.

All this discussion about history is going off-topic and whether it favors one or the other does'nt mean anything since as Mao said "power grows out of the barrel of a gun".

To Pete:

"I would think when there is a discussion about the rights of an ethnic peoples, the Tibetans in this case, there would be real historical research and analysis on the issues. "We are all Chinese, just won't do because it is not true , except in the sense of current nationality of people who live here in China and are given an official ID card or Chinese passport." Why is it that the tens of thousands of citizens from other provinces the PRC has sent to resettle in Tibet, the vast majority, if not all, are Han people?"

Besides reading what TGIE says, I think you need to read up some works authored by

1) Melvyn C. Goldstein
2) A. Tom Grunfeld
3) Xu Mingxu (徐明旭 if you read Chinese, see www.tangben.com/Himalaya.htm)

1) and 2) are American Tibetologists who spent time in Tibet and who speak Tibetan. 3) was sent to Tibet for a number of years due to political dissent. Google/Amazon would help you find their works easily. When it comes to Tibet, I can't simply rely on "reporters/journalists".

It is true that people in China call themselves Chinese. They don't call themselves Han Chinese, of course, but they do call themselves Chinese and they ARE Chinese, be it Korean, Mongol, Manchu, Hui, Zhuang, Yi, and Han. If someone in the west can not differentiate Chinese from Han Chinese, it is really not a Chinese porblem.

Han Chinese repsents 98% of the Chinese population. Why those "Tens of Thousands sent" in to Tibet had to be ethinically discriminated? I don't understand why it is wrong that the majority was Han Chinese.

"As I understand none of the previous Han dynasties made claims to Tibet. I do not say the Mongols and Manchu dynasties made claims to Tibet, I think that is what the present PRC government says to justify invading and controlling Tibet now. In other words, the PRC is using slim, inconsequential facts to justify its 1951 invasion of Tibet and continued domination up to the present. One story I had read that is used by the PRC to justify its claims is that a princess from one country was married off to prince or ruler of the other country. I do not know which is which here. And another set of facts that is used to claim sovereignty of Tibet is Tibet sent ministers or high officials to Beijing to bow and scrape at the feet of the Manchus. But in neither of these cases did the two dynasties set up government control and run Tibet like was done in other parts of China at those times."

"princess marrying off prince of other 'country'" (whose very definition perhaps occured later than any of those events) was a means of maintaining relations in (hopefully) a peaceful way. I don't think China claimed Tibet by marrying one of her princesses to the king in Tibet. That was the Tang and China's claim over Tibet started in Yuan (many hundred of years later). "Soverenignty" is relatively a modern term. Clearly Tibet did not have Soverenignty during the Qing dynasty (1644-1912), not during the Republic of China (1912-1949), and certainly not during the People's Republic of China (1949 - present), no matter how the whole thing is spinned in the West. The evidence that Dalai Lamas (including the current 14th DL) political power had to be APPROVED by the central governments in Beijing or Nanjing says Tibet was not soverenign.

To Skip Meadow:

Right on the money skip!!!!!!!!!

Let's not debate on useless issues and find a way to
establish a peaceful world order.

The matter of fact is: Far-right nationlism has been very popular EVERYWHERE in the world now, specially in the "most rightious" Europe. China is simply catching up.

In Belgium, the most popular political party among the Flemish people (the Flemish Interest party) is far-right, nationalist, anti-immigrant, and anti-Islam.

In Switzerland, the most popular political party, the Swiss People's Party, is far-right, nationalistic, and anti-immigrant. It enjoys the support of 30 percent of the Swiss people.

The far-right nationalist Le Pen was almost elected president in France a few years ago. The only reason he wasn't elected is because he made a convroversial comment just prior to election. If he had kept his mouth shut, we would probably have a fascist president in Europe right now.

Italy is becoming increasingly far-right. The mayor of Rome is an open fascist. The prime minister of Italy styles himself an anti-immigration nationalist.

In Austria, the far-right has positioned itself into the political mainstream and banned Mosque construction! The far-right People's Party of Austria (the BNP of Austria) received 42.27% of the vote in 2002!

The British National Party is becoming a mainstream political party in Britain. 60 percent of the British people said they agreed with BNP's chief policies, according to a skynet opinion poll. The BNP is the most popular politicla party in several regions of Britain.

The Netherlands has the anti-Islam, anti-immigrant nationalist Geert Wilders of the People's Party for Freedom, a man infamous for producing the anti-Islam 'Fitna' hate film. He and his party are steadily gaining ground and a recent opinion poll showed that most Dutch people agree with his anti-Islam position.

Pete:

You are doing it again.

My question was "Do you know the Manchu claimed to be the Chinese?"
Now you answer it "I have never heard any Manchu person claim to be Han Chinese".

I am pretty sure that you know the difference between "Chinese" amd "Han Chinese".

Is this how you engage a serious debate?

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at.

If you support "Self-determination", then there must be many native ethnic groups around the world which will fit that criteria.

If you are a Caucasian American, and you support the native Americans' claim to their land, then you have to pack your bags and move back to Europe.

Everyone may as well get used to it. For the next 150 years or so, the Chinese are going to occupy the place held by the US for the last 150 years. Their economy is going to be the one that drives the global economy, not ours. They are on the very verge of becoming the only Mega Power this world has seen and they will have the money to sustain it. We have always been quick to criticize the Chinese but perhaps we should look at our own past deeds before we condemn others for theirs. The US stole 1/4 of it's total continental landmass from Mexico in a war time action. If we can just take the property of another soverign nation then why can't the Chinese do the same thing (?) Stop whining about the Chinese and figure out how to live with them. They are the heirs apparent since the demise of the US seems to be in progress. They have 6000 years of culture and history to draw from and they certainly can't do any worse job that the US has done as an example to the world.

Everyone may as well get used to it. For the next 150 years or so, the Chinese are going to occupy the place held by the US for the last 150 years. Their economy is going to be the one that drives the global economy, not ours. They are on the very verge of becoming the only Mega Power this world has seen and they will have the money to sustain it. We have always been quick to criticize the Chinese but perhaps we should look at our own past deeds before we condemn others for theirs. The US stole 1/4 of it's total continental landmass from Mexico in a war time action. If we can just take the property of another soverign nation then why can't the Chinese do the same thing (?) Stop whining about the Chinese and figure out how to live with them. They are the heirs apparent since the demise of the US seems to be in progress. They have 6000 years of culture and history to draw from and they certainly can't do any worse job that the US has done as an example to the world.

terfmop chinese:
The only quote I made of your statements, I copied and pasted. Are you now denying that statement?

It is well within debate standards and reason to characterize a debate opponent's statements. Notice I did not put quote marks around my characterization of one of your statments.

I have never heard any Manchu person claim to be Han Chinese, but they claim Chinese nationality even if they do not want to as they would be stateless which I doubt the PRC would allow.

Let's get to the real issues here. Firstly, you don't seem to want to talk about the PRC's invasion of Tibet in 1951. Why not? Does it destroy the PRC case for claiming Tibet? (Now I see you are a clever boy, but to say the PRC was just "reclaiming" Tibet is a sophomoric use of words to try to avoid the real story as is the
claim the Tibet matter has been settled for years.)

The UN Declaration of Universal Human Rights provides a direction for the Tibetans, "self-determination." Let's see the great humanitarism of the Chinese government which I believe is embodied in the Chinese Constitution go to work and abide by its international commitments.

I would ask you to provide varifiable historical texts to support the PRC claim to Tibet, if you want to change my mind.

Pete:

To add to that: I am not advocating redrawing some borders in Africa or questioning the existence of Israel. What I want to point out is we should stop this nonsense that there are legal claims on Tibet independence for any historical reason. If you really think there is one, the democratic process is to have you petition your own government. If you can’t even convince them, how are you going to convince any Chinese?

Pete:

When you quote people, please don't cut it in a way that my original wording became not recognizable. In China, we call it now “don’t be too CNN”.

When I read your argument, it is so weak, that was just repetition of other postings.

Just a couple of quick questions: can you help me to understand who drew all the borders in Africa? Who drew the map of Israel? Are you trying to call Qin dynasty a colonial power? Do you know the Manchu claimed to be the Chinese?

It seems that recently CCP have made China the enemy of 200 million ethnic minorities in PRC, never admitting and changing their oppressive and crafty policies on ethnic minorities(?) in PRC.
(The ethnic minorities living in PRC occupy the Majority of Territory and Natural Resources of PRC)

It seems that recently young Chinese have made China the enemy of the world, never blaming CCP's wrong policies and always blaming others(Tibetan and people of the world).

How many people in the world love Chinese? (esp. recently, of course except Chinese)

Why have CCP always blamed Dalai Lama for seeking independence?
(Wikipedia says :
The 14th Dalai Lama has said that "in order to develop Tibet materially as a modern nation, Tibet must remain within the People's Republic of China. Provided Chinese give us a full guarantee of preservation of Tibetan culture, Tibetan environment, Tibetan spirituality, then it is of mutual benefit."
He currently does not seek full independence for Tibet, but would accept an autonomous status similar to that now held by Hong Kong.)

Why have not CCP(esp, Hu Jintao) changed their wrong policies which have provoked Tibetan(Uyghur) unrest continually?

Because Hu has been on the promotional track after ordering discharge on Tibetan demonstrators in 1989 when he was CCP's first secretary in Tibet?

Because Hu and his followers(tens of millions of young CYLC(Communist Youth League of China(共青团)) have made and performed the oppressive and crafty policies on 200 ethnic minorities in PRC?

It seems that 200 ethnic minorities living in PRC face three options.

To be Chinese(Han people) after successful assimilation into Chinese.
To be Social Failure trying to preserve their own culture(religion, language).
To be Monkey in the Zoo as we can already see in some famous tourist resorts in PRC's ethnic minority's regions.

At last, I want to say "proper word / improper word"

Tibetan people / Tibetan Chinese (Han people? Han Chinese? Chinese people?)
Tibet Colony Region / Xizang(西藏 which is part of Tibet) Autonomous Region
(Wikipedia says :
Within the People's Republic, Tibet is identified with the Autonomous Region, which includes about HALF of Historical Tibet, including the traditional provinces of Ü-Tsang and Kham (western half).
Colony is a territory under the immediate political control of a state.)
Mongol / Mongo(蒙古 which means foolish and outdated and was made by Chinese)

Ugly Chinese does not apply to beautiful Taiwanese.

To Jed Plamett:

Correct, you don't need to speak manderain to know what happened in Tienanman Square in 1989.
But what happened was right or wrong, why don't you ask chinese people especially those who have paticipated.

terfmop chinese:

To Pete:

If I understand your logic, since the Qing dynasty is not Han-Chinese, then we Chinese should not recognize any treaty it signed with Briton, USA, Russia, Japan and Germany? If I generalize it, whenever a new government comes to power (especially if it is formed mainly by another ethnicity), it can say all the predecessor's treaty are null and invalid? Is this the base for your assertion?

terfmop chinese:
No it's not. I am looking at what I know about land area generally called China. For one thing Tibet was never called or designated as China. More importantly, the Mongols and Manchus were invaders into the territory of Han Chinese and there was no grant of authority or rights from the predecessor dynasty to its usurper dynasty, either Mongol or Manchu, neither of which peoples claimed to be Chinese.

anonymous:
Your comments maybe characterized, in the nicest, but critical way I can manage, as lacking substance. I would think when there is a discussion about the rights of an ethnic peoples, the Tibetans in this case, there would be real historical research and analysis on the issues. "We are all Chinese, just won't do because it is not true , except in the sense of current nationality of people who live here in China and are given an official ID card or Chinese passport." Why is it that the tens of thousands of citizens from other provinces the PRC has sent to resettle in Tibet, the vast majority, if not all, are Han people?

As I understand none of the previous Han dynasties made claims to Tibet. I do not say the Mongols and Manchu dynasties made claims to Tibet, I think that is what the present PRC government says to justify invading and controlling Tibet now. In other words, the PRC is using slim, inconsequential facts to justify its 1951 invasion of Tibet and continued domination up to the present. One story I had read that is used by the PRC to justify its claims is that a princess from one country was married off to prince or ruler of the other country. I do not know which is which here. And another set of facts that is used to claim sovereignty of Tibet is Tibet sent ministers or high officials to Beijing to bow and scrape at the feet of the Manchus. But in neither of these cases did the two dynasties set up government control and run Tibet like was done in other parts of China at those times.

terfmop Chinese:

You say the issue of Tibet was settled decades ago. Who was it settled between? I do not see the Tibetans have agreed to what the PRC has done or there would be not dissatisfaction and 100,000 or so Tibetan exiles. What was settled decades ago was settled by guns and troops from PRC invading Tibet and forcing the Tibetan to accept the Han presence under penalty of death or imprisonment.

"There are no legal arguments that will support Tibet independence because it would cause problems for other countries such as Israel," you say. My friend that is pretty cynical and I am sure that is what PRC hopes will happen. But we are talking about human lives and a distinct culture, not musk ox or antelope. However, I read your support of the PRC/DL dialogue as a good sign of your humanity. My worry is that as soon as the Olympics are finished, that dialogue will end or go nowhere because the PRC will not voluntarily loosen its grip on Tibet.

As I stated in my previous post, I actually preferring the Chinese keeping a low profile right now until we really catch the West economically.
But still I like debate and can’t resist a good one here. So let’s look at the realpolitik here and examine exactly how much damage we Chinese incurred on ourselves in the recent rallies. The answer is minimal.
Let’s not twist the fact here. Almost all the pro-China rallies were held in Western Europe, Australia and North America. Did u hear any complains about these rallies? None! They were large, but peaceful and orderly. Actually they were so well organized, the only thing the Western media could do about them was to ignore them as if they never happened. The only violence u saw at these rallies were those committed by Tibetan activists. Of course they are lovely.
I would be honest here and did point out one ugly incident, which was the Duke incident. That was a disgrace. But even in that case, the ugly thing happened AFTER the rally. But again when u talk about realpolitik, let’s face it, how many people in the West really heard about this incident? Or more importantly how many people really give a damn about this incident in the West, besides some sensationalist journalists and China bashers? I bet even in Duke, people already forgot this, if they ever knew about this, and are all psyched up about tomorrow’s NC primary.
And then there is the Korea incident. I am still not sure about what happened there. Some people in the Chinese web site claimed the Chinese were provoked. It’s possible we were the guilty party. But I have no interest figuring out exactly what happened there. What does this say? It says we don’t give a damn about South Korea. Pardon my language. It is offensive. But this is the reality. As long as Korea peninsula is divided, South Korea will always be a second-rated country on the international stage regardless how strong its economy may be. (Remember West Germany?) And the road to Korea unification goes through Beijing.
One criticism leveled against the Chinese during this whole episode is that we are very insecured and really need a thick skin. This is very true. If China wants to be a great power, it can’t be bothered by every criticism. Grow up! It is really ridiculous for the Chinese foreign ministry to demand an apology from CNN, although to be fair, this is not unprecedented, just look at how US treats al Jazeera, including its bombing of al Jazeera’s Kabul office. So if u think about Ugly American, the title of Ugly Chinese is really a badge of honor. It says: Welcome to the club.

Anonymous wrote:

"Listen buddy I am too lazy to do editing. For you r information I took English exam and pass with flying color. I speak 4 languages fluently. How many languages do you speaks?"

--

Sorry folks, Anonymous wants to make this a pissing match and I'm going to have to oblige him. I speaks (sic) six languages fluently - the U.N. languages - and I can converse in an additional four. That's ten total. When I'm not bringing pretentious braggarts like yourself back down to earth I work as an interrupter.

You started this by flaunting your credentials and assuming a school with a big name entitles you to all the right answers. Where you went to school doesn't impress anyone here. We are much more impressed with honesty, humility, forbearance and compassion. Do they teach that at the MIT of Europe?

Sorry. You lose.

We like China!

Hi,

"Looks that both of you have a tacit concensus that Macau, HK are not part of China. In what sense you are using China if not as the name of a country? so in what sense you are not treating Macau, HK as lands foreign to China the country? I know such subconsciousness is prevalent among euro-americans, but it says a lot about the life of the enterprise of orientialism."

In my mind Macau is a part of China, but, Macau has a place in my heart that is seperate from China, as it was a part of my peoples history for almost 500 years. Seeing that I am Portuguese. I say Macau, the same way I say Goa, yet I know it is part of India, same as Formosa or any number of places, including Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Brazil, Angola, etc.... Many places. It is part of my peoples history and if we want to get nationalistic, most of the people in Macau have passports from Portugal, doesn't that make them sort of my countrymen? Do you think that our points are attempts to seperate them from China? Portugal gave back Macau, they were not asked nor was there any demand or time limit. Portugal back in the 70's approached the PRC, to return the gift that was Macau back to the gift givers, China 500 years ago. This was after our dictator government was taken down, by the military, with no deaths and the military did not take over. We decided to either return back or give freedom to the remaining colonise. China actually said NO at first, then said not until HK is returned first, then they would take back Macau. I am a firm believer that all nations need to find their own ways that work. Portugal was a monarchy, then a republic, then a monarchy, then a republic, then a dictatorship (50 years) and now a republic, took three tries over 200 years. Our dictator was originally minister of economics, not many countries can claim that. Generals, revalutionaries, but an economist??? lol

Young Korean:
Recently in Korea's internet, Young Koreans often say :

We do not like Japanese because we are Koreans.
we do not like Chinese because we are Humans.

May 6, 2008 12:14 AM | Report Offensive Comments

--------------

Your point, by entending its logic, is paving the way to legitmately wiping out the non-humans, or to treat non-humans as non-humans, that is, not humanely, but non-humanely, because that's what non-humans deserve to have.

Don't you think if this view is representative of some Korean community's mindset now, that this is bordering on being genocidal?

And could you tell all the fellow posters here that if Chinese are really non-humans, why so many Koreans, estimated in tens of thousands, would reside permanently in Beijing, Qindao, etc, among the non-humans?

And tell us fellow posters here if all the non-humans have been wiped out, then no one is there to read Chinese, then how are you to read comprehend your anciet history much of which is recorded in the language of Chinese not of your very recently emerged Korean script? Oh, I see, you would tell us that even after all the non-humans have been wiped out there would still be enough of you humans that can read the Chinese language. But, don't you feel it a shame that in order to comprehend your own ancient history, you even need to master a language of the non-human? Then tell us is Chinese the non-human like a dog, which is to Korea not a pet not a friend but a tasty meat to be consumed?

Recently in Korea's internet, Young Koreans often say :

We do not like Japanese because we are Koreans.
we do not like Chinese because we are Humans.

Hi Dude,

Don't be too critical. When I wrote Hong Kong and China, it refers to HK and the rest of China. HK is definitely part of China, but it's just common practice to put them together that way. Even in Chinese language, We refer to them as Liang An San Di ( two sides and three places), right?

Be calm, Patriotism is a good thing, but don't mis-use it. Beside, sometime you have to think from other's point as well instead of just insisting on your own stance. When we criticize US, we also expect them to think in our way, isn't it? They have different value, the Christian value, which make them think different compare to us in some issue. the best is to compromise instead of direct conflict, which led to the Islamic and Christian War in Middle East.

Don't blame them. None of us are diplomats. When you live in the west for a long time, you subconsciously speak their languages and using their terms. If I am not careful, I may mix up those too.

castro wrote: "I am hoping to go to Macau and then China, plus other parts of Asia in two or three years. I am still exploring South America and Europe at the moment. Not enough time, but within the next 7 years I expect to have spent a decent amount of time on each continent. I may go the HK for business next year, but it is a long trip for a short stay."

Shawn wrote:"Just wish you could have a pleasant journey when traveling to HK and China in the future. And if you find anything makes you unhappy over there, don't blame us all completely, just remember there are different kind of peoples everywhere."

Looks that both of you have a tacit concensus that Macau, HK are not part of China. In what sense you are using China if not as the name of a country? so in what sense you are not treating Macau, HK as lands foreign to China the country? I know such subconsciousness is prevalent among euro-americans, but it says a lot about the life of the enterprise of orientialism.

HK fell into English hands only after England waged a most infamous war against China when China wanted to ban England's drug trade to China. UK at the time was a systematic state-sponsor of drug trafficking to China. If anyone cannot visualize this, then think of Columbia systematically dumps drug into America and how Americans would feel. UK's victory over China on HK is not a victory of virtue. That has always to be remembered.

Hi Castro,

Some of your comments really hit the point.

You ought to write blog so I can subscribe and follow up.

Anyway, I might not be able to catch up all the updates over here.

Just wish you could have a pleasant journey when traveling to HK and China in the future. And if you find anything makes you unhappy over there, don't blame us all completely, just remember there are different kind of peoples everywhere.

Since all western thought the rise of China is threaten to the world and the rise of China made chinese ugly, then go ahead. u cannot stop that. Several years later the Chinese Country will be the most powerful threaton in the world. Because all u bias idiot make the sheep into the wolf, cheers ,you made it!

To Sonagi:
“You're talking to a human being. Internet discussions would be a lot more civil if participants' nationalities, ethnicities, religious beliefs, gender, and sexual orientation were left out of the discussion.”

Are you kidding? Can you read? What is wrong with the curiosity to know your/his/her nationality? All I want is to able to better relate to his/her stand point. I did not hide that I am a Chinese and I do not feel offended by Mr. Pomfert's title.

Needless to say:

Chinese are too ugly for sure!
Why?

1/ Chinese are physically ugly! due to their face has no traces of beauty of beautiful living like many other people in the world for example the caucasian people, european people, etc.
2/ Chinese are intellectually ugly! due to they have been born in a society of treachery, unfaithful, lying, stealing, faking, violent, barbarous behavioural thinking and behaving as the world all have been experienced when seeing them acting in almost all activities in life and living and treating others!
It is sad indeed and the ugglies found from chinese are countless to show all people of the world!

"You said that you are not Korean. Are you a Yankee or Southerner? I just would like to know who I am talking to."

You're talking to a human being. Internet discussions would be a lot more civil if participants' nationalities, ethnicities, religious beliefs, gender, and sexual orientation were left out of the discussion. If I had a dime for every nationality insult and tu quoque argument on this thread, I could retire.

BTW, you do realize that the "Chinese-are-ugly" commenter is not a native speaker of English and is obviously trolling.

"You said Koreans are angry toward the Chinese students pushed a few people around is bad for Chinese image? You must have forgotten what happened at world economic forum last year at Hong Kong where hundred of Koreans not only push, but hit and injured more than a dozen Chinese Hong Kong police."

Fenchin, you are right. Violent Korean demonstrators in Hong Kong tarnished Korea's image as surely as violent Chinese demonstrators did in Seoul. Chinese students not only pushed, but hit, kicked, and threw objects, sending some Koreans to the hospital.

This is fun. First we talk about ugly Chinese, then Tibet, Taiwan. Now Tiananmen.

Now To Jed Clampett: just curious, where were you at time of Tiananmen? Were you also on the street of New York, SF, Chicago demonstrate against Chinese government? Or did you just read the story from newspapers archives? What do you know about Tiananmen?

does that mean that you don't have to speak mandarin to understand that what was done in Tianenmen Square in 1989 was wrong?

"To Castro: Does Agentina still claim Falklands (they call it Malvinas) from the Britons?"

You are correct. I did not think of that one.

I know this was not addressed to me, but I speak six, but some people believe Portuguese, Spanish, French, and Italian should not count as four. Yet they are very different. I can read, but my spelling in some of them is horrible.

TO: RJ CHAPLETON

You are right, this is a blog for english language posting (I am a chinese ).

I agree with your post almost 100%, only a tiny bit I disagree. You don't need to understand German to know what Nazis did was wrong, but you do need to understand history to comment on history issues ( not only Tibet, but every where).

talk about the chinese getting ugly... after the last few weeks of the totalitarian government in china sending out it's agents on message boards to post it's views. We saw what messages they gave their youth groups to disseminate.
the message was that the Chinese will not negotiate or even accept diplomacy. The language given, dalai lama a criminal, the murdered han, the media bias making china a victim, etc etc. is designed to kill debate and any negotiation. It is not designed to promote an environment of respect and mutual understanding conducive to negotiations, compromise and resolution. It merely wants to impose it's will on everyone involved and all else be damned.
This is not a good partner to do business with or to enjoin any other endeavor with, until it changes it's intrancigence and realizes the modern world is much more different than the fudal, totalitarianism it wants to impose on them.

Now, China has linked the tibetan freedom movement youth with al-qaida. While this would be completely in contravention of buddhism's tenets of peaceful resolution and harmony in all things, we are expected to accept the chinese version of things, as if we didn't know how dishonest they are in all things. Thankfully, we are not so fully deluded by the totalitarian regime's as their charges are.
Realize that there is a reason for making this connection. Not to try and discredit the tibetans, they are setting the framework to justify a full scale invasion of Tibet and a re-education of it's citizens. Re-education is the chinese version of separating a soul from spirit and will. To disconnect them from freedom and force them to join the hive of automatons.
During the Olympics, the Chinese government will set off a small explosive that will have minor consequences, but it will be used as justification to begin a full scale cultural destruction of Tibetan Buddhism, the one thing they fear above all others. That which empowers people to be good, kind, independant... in other words, embodies those things we have been taught to be virtues, as oppossed to the aggregious nature of the nationalism, greed, victimhood and victimization that the totalitarians want to impose on the people of earth.

___Any country that want to establish diplomatic relation with China, has to confirm that Taiwan belong to China and there is only one China___

US has never done this. US has diplomatic relations with China.

Let's see. Japan. Japan has diplomatic relations with China. Taiwan was part of Japan for a long time. Did Japan give Taiwan back? Taiwan isn't part of the PRC, so I guess not.

I think your communist leaders let you down.

Listen buddy I am too lazy to do editing. For you r information I took English exam and pass with flying color. I speak 4 languages fluently. How many languages do you speaks?

To those hair splitter that want to deny Taiwan as part and parcel of China. Any country that want to establish diplomatic relation with China, has to confirm that Taiwan belong to China and there is only one China

To Castro: Does Agentina still claim Falklands (they call it Malvinas) from the Britons?

"territorial dispute in South America"

What territorial dispute in South America? I know of several in Africa and Europe, but not entirely sure about what territorial dispute in South Africa?

Anonymous wrote:

"I went to the MIT of Europe and I take the entrance examination that even Einstein failed
and I got perfect 100 for history. So don't tell me that I didn't know european history"

--

Ok, we won't tell you that you didn't (sic) know european history. Instead can we tell you that you don't know English grammar? You might want to stay away from that entrance exam!

I am curious to see anyone could argue Tibet’s legal claim to be independent without putting the existence of the Israel into question? How are you going to handle the territorial dispute in South America and Africa?

That is why I am saying let the history to the historians. Let Chinese and Tibetan talk and decide what they want to do. Encouraging China and Tibet to go back to the negotiation table is a good thing. But don't pretend that you know the Tibet solution and demanding something Dalai Lama does not even support, is even more troubling.

Hi,

To the one who wrote "I went to the MIT of Europe and I take the entrance examination that even Einstein failed and I got perfect 100 for history. So don't tell me that I didn't know european history"

I suspect this is directed at me. Well, you have me there. MIT in Europe, you mean the equivalent to MIT, correct? MIT is in the US, unless I am worng, unless this is a different school then the Mass Institute of Technology. Because it would be strange that the entrance exames at MIT would have European history and its own section at that. So what is the answer to the question I asked? Which was very retorical and made to be sarcastic to make the point about your blatent attempt to make yourself look superior vs looking foolish. The fact you did not recognize that has actually proven my point further. Now I just think you are a liar or arrogant. So, did you go to the school, because I did not go to University, which probably makes you think I am stupid. Of course it is obvious all successful and smart people go to university? Sarcasim again.

Here is the treaty in 1895 when China gave away Taiwan:

Article 2

China cedes to Japan in perpetuity and full sovereignty the following territories, together with all fortifications, arsenals, and public property thereon:—

. . .

(b) The island of Formosa, together with all islands appertaining or belonging to the said island of Formosa.

That was 1895.

SF Peace Treaty does not mention this Treaty.

SF Peace Treaty does, though, mention China twice and delinates China's benefits:

Article 21

Notwithstanding the provisions of Article 25 of the present Treaty, China shall be entitled to the benefits of Articles 10 and 14(a)2; and Korea to the benefits of Articles 2, 4, 9 and 12 of the present Treaty.

Note that Taiwan is mentioned in Article 2 as is Korea. Korea is explicitly stated to benefit from Article 2 where Japan gives up Korea. In the same article Japan gives up Taiwan. China is not mentioned as the beneficiary and it is not an oversight as Korea is cited as the beneficiary of clauses in that article and China is mentioned as beneficiary in other articles but not article 2.

The last couple of postings just showed that history is so much to interpretations. It is helpful for understanding the matter but can’t used as the only basis to solve problems. Whoever advocating that Tibet should be independent from China (somehow we start arguing about Taiwan), why don’t you write petitions to your democratically elected government, so that at least they recognize your wishes. Don’t tell me that democracy does not solve this kind of problems.

Interesting. I pointed out that the SF Treaty does not say what it was claimed to have said.

No argument against that was made. In stead there was name calling and a different argument based on opinion, not legal documents.

Hi Nobob, No nothing, Illiterate Red neck:

Not here to debate a treaty I know nothing about, but when did the PRC get recognition as the correct government. I thought that there were still questions until the 70's when the UN seat switched?

I went to the MIT of Europe and I take the entrance examination that even Einstein failed

and I got perfect 100 for history. So don't tell me that I didn't know european history

Article 2

(a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet.

(b) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores

Not only that you are no nothing but also illiterate

How come when China cede Taiwan it is party to the agreement but when Japan annuled the ownership It conveniently ignored Doesn't logic say that it should return to the rightfull owner?

The reason because China and Taiwan is not party to the signatory because they were in civil war and at that time amd there is confusion who should be called legitimate goverment of China

With the return of PRC as the legitimate goverment of China than it should be return to PRC

Every goverment in the world recoqnized this fact only nabo ,ignorant red neck conveniently erased this fact!

"The lack of historical knowledge about Chinese History in the west, is just embarassing."

Embarassing to who? Chinese history not exactly madatory reading growing up and I would suspect German or French or English or Spanish or etc... history is equally not known in China, except by those who studied or has interest in it, same thing. Plus, your statement is very generic, there are people in the west that have great knowledge in that subject, just like there are people in China that have great knowledge of western hisory. The average westerner is no different than the average Easterner. How's about someone saying "The lack of historical knowledge about American history in China , is just embarassing." also works. What was the purpose of your point, to insult? To feel superior or try to convey that people in China are better educated? Please. What was your purpose? What, you expect everyone to know about what is a fairly specific and obscure treaty? What do you know about the series of treaties signed after the first defeat and issolation of Nepolean, what year, what is different vs the set of treaties signed after the second defeat. What is one called? What countries were they signed in? What city? If you can not answer, It is embarassing your knowledge of European history. I am just making a point. If you have a issue with what one person wrote as being different from what you have learned, refrain from making such comments that only make you look bad. The point to these boards is constructive discussion of issues and to gain a better understanding, not to try winning a point by making yourself appear smarter than others through belittling others.

___Does anyone ever know that San Francisco treaty voided all those treaties and called Japanese occupation illegal and forced Japan to annuled those treaties. Man talking about ignorance____

No it didn't.

And in SF Treaty China was not a signatory on the treaty nor was China involved at all in this treaty (neither Chiang regime or Mao regime).

SF Treaty is Japan's surrender Treaty. It was signed in 1951. Japan did renounce claim to Taiwan in that treaty.

The Qing government's part in the Treaty, cessation of claim to Taiwan in perpetuity, was not addressed.

These treaties are all available to read. You guys don't understand that unlike under the communists, we can actually have access to information and are able to determine your lies.

Here is the full mention of Taiwan from the treaty in context of other territories that Japan renounced claim to:

CHAPTER II

TERRITORY

Article 2

(a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet.

(b) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores.

The lack of historical knowledge about Chinese History in the west, is just embarassing.

One poster said China cede Taiwan in perpetuity by signing Washington or Shimonoseki treaty.

Does anyone ever know that San Francisco treaty voided all those treaties and called Japanese occupation illegal and forced Japan to annuled those treaties. Man talking about ignorance

Another one said Mongol empire is not Chinese dynasty It might be true in Genghiz Khan time.

But by the time of Kublai Khan for all intent and purpose he is Chinese. He declared himself as Chinese Emperor and Declare his Dynasty as Yuan

He even went to war with his brother. Exactly because his brother think he become too Chinese.

He was chinese educated since his childhood and was accomplished Caligrapher and love poetry . He Invented the Beijing Opera and blue color porcelain that become his legacy until today.

At the end of dynasty most of the Mongols choose to stay in the China proper instead of returning to outer MOngolia where they are still there now

At the end of the world war II they become emaciated people. Their numbered dwindled and show sign of degenerating into alcoholism. Mao save them by improving their lot and give them their pride by building Mausoleum to Genghiz Khan and recover their heritage.

So that when Outer Mongolia shake loose the shackle of Communism .
They become lost people. Lost their alphaphet, Lost their history ,lost their culture. So much so that they have to send people to Bautou University to relearn their heritage

There are now 7 or 8 million Mongols in China vs 2 million impoverish outer Mongols

To Huayi: you need to include my next statement into the context since legal precedent can still be created. "Because supporting any of these historical arguments, it will create political nightmares elsewhere in the world. Nobody is interested to get into this mess. Israel is the prime example."

"The are no legal arguments supporting today’s Tibetan independence movement that will stand the international judicial scrutiny.."

Actually, the new issue of Far Eastern Economic Review makes this exact legal argument. I have not read it yet but it's there.

I don't know how to reply to the "that will stand the international judicial scrutiny" test however since international judiciary is a somewhat flaccid concept.

So.. There is a legal argument but there is not really a venue for it.

To Anonymous: I admire you for the thoughtful analysis. But I doubt highly this would convince the western people supporting Tibet independence.

To Peter / Alex: for me, with the recognition of all countries including western powers that Tibet is a part of China, the matter is settled decades ago. It is now up to China to decide whether it will allow Tibet to go independent. In a way, it becomes an internal decision.

The are no legal arguments supporting today’s Tibetan independence movement that will stand the international judicial scrutiny. Because supporting any of these historical arguments, it will create political nightmares elsewhere in the world. Nobody is interested to get into this mess. Israel is the prime example.

Therefore, the international community is using the human rights to supporting Dalai Lama, which China needs to pay attention to. The dialog yesterday is a good start.

Hi Shawn,

1. Do a google search of china +cultural revalution, one source is wikipedia, but of course like the main point I was trying to prove is that Facts can be mis used or distroted, etc. Some say 20 to 30 million died of starvation, some say killed, some say more or less, some say other things. Same as saying 600,000 Iraqies dead, not sure about the number as I have read 100,000, 200,000 and a dozen other numbers, but how many from the US army. Add the mental damage they have done, which I think will be much worse in the long run. Chinese history is facinating, but it seems to have a lot of internal conflict, followed by long periods of calm.
2. Completely agree with you. This place is for a free exchange of idea and opinion. Once again, I was just expressing the distortion of facts, as some right wing people in the west call it murder. The truth is, I find abortion morally wrong, but I am only able to control my own actions and live based on my morals vs the foolish belief that everyone should follow me, like my choice just to not have children, period. The world will never get a rest, if we keep adding more mouths to feed.
3. Agreed. Death penalty has nothing to do with democracy. The countries I live in do not have the death penalty, but, it is sometimes less cruel than a life in prison, plus I believe child molestors should die, period.
4. Agreed. But part of there problem is not for the government to solve, it requires a change in attitude amoung some City chinesse. In a lot of countries in the west, Migrant workers are foreign workers, but from what I have read, Chinese from another province or from the country who move to the cities are treated like migrant workes by both the government and the urban population. That just seems a bit strange to me, if true.

I do not think you are hostile to me or at all. I do not have my own blog, I am actually pretty bad with technology. I have a few tech guys who work for me. I just like reading different opinions and love constructive debate with others. The only way to understand ourselves, is to understand others and how they think and feel. I really do not like the name calling and insults or the talk about "race" and "destiny" or those who claim we can not talk and debate, as if it is wrong to interact. I am hoping to go to Macau and then China, plus other parts of Asia in two or three years. I am still exploring South America and Europe at the moment. Not enough time, but within the next 7 years I expect to have spent a decent amount of time on each continent. I may go the HK for business next year, but it is a long trip for a short stay.

To Peter,

"As I have read in blogs and in other places, China now claims historical rights to Tibet because the Mongol Empire and the Manchu dynasty had some kind of suzerainty over Tibet. Consider then both the Mongols and Manchu were foreigners (non-Han peoples) to China at the times of their separate conquests of China, which were accomplished hundreds of years apart . Both of those foreign dynastic masters of the Han Chinese collapsed and disappeared as ruling powers. Now as I understand it the Han Chinese dynasties never made claims to Tibet. My question then is how can it be claimed, argued and seriously believed by any rational, just person, absent the military invasion and conquest, the Han people now have absolute rights to Tibet? "

It would be an easy explanation if you looked at the whole Tibet as being claimed by China, not by Han Chinese. Mogols, Manchus, Han, whatever, are Chinese. It's China claiming Tibet, not a specific ethinc group. Also, I don't understand the why it is okay for the Mogols and Manchurians to claim Tibet, but not the Han's.

Mongols established Yuan Dynasty and its capital in Beijing. Manchurians established Qing Dynasty and its capital in Beijing, so was the Ming Dynasty and PRC. It's all part of Chinese history, not just Han Chinese history. You'll have to understand Chinese is not equal to Han, although Han is the majority.

Although dynasty changes, it's natural for the Chinese to believe who ever succeeded the power also inherited the territory governed by the previous. Therefore most Chinese view Mongols or the Manchurians one of their own, and Tibetans the same way.

I have seen the word "suzerainty" in some places, notably in the so called "Simla Convention/Treaty". It was a convention jointly attended by Tibetans, Chinese (ROC), and the British. The Chinese were ready to sign it but walked out because the Tibetans wanted the so-called "Greater Tibet" including parts of Sichuan, Yunnan, Gansu and all of Qinghai, which was "too much" for ROC (Republic of China). The then president Yuan Shikai told his representatives to walk away. As a result, nothing was signed by all 3 parties and therefore all articles in the 'Treaty' were invalid.

The westerners often see different ethic groups as "foreigners", which is foundamentally different than the Chinese view. The Chinese view they are all Chinese in the same family. True, there were wars between the Song and Jin, wars between Ming and Qing or even wars during Sanguo periods (among all Han Chinese), but they were just Chinese wars, and it does not matter who (Han, Mongols, Manurians) against who (Han, Mogols, Manchurians, Tibetans) as they are all Chinese wars.

PLA going into Lhasa is considered "reclaim", not just "claim" because Tibet was loosely governed due to wars in other parts of China (i.e., not just Han China, but entire China).

To Alex:
Shouting slogan is not the way to discuss. Apparently you did not want to answer my question. Or will you? All I am asking is what the international norm should be on dealing with historical agreements. You can always pick a historical moment for your favor.
In fact, do you know how many ordinary Chinese care whether Taiwan is independent or not? You seems to think that the Chinese and the Chinese government have the same position on everything, do you?

Hah! Now the Chinese want to talk about treaties as a way to argue for their right to rule Tibet? Okay, here's a treaty for you, the treaty of Shimonoseki, 1895. 'Articles 2 & 3: China cedes to Japan in perpetuity ... the island of Taiwan ...'

The only claim China has to Tibet is the right of force and occupation. And the Tibetan people have stood up and rejected that claim. It's time for China to go.

Castro,

I read a lot of your comments, not going to answer one by one.

But to the 3 facts you listed,
1. I don't know where you get the number of 30,000,000+ get killed by CCP in Mao's CR, I never find that figure, please let me know your source, so I can gain some extre knowledge.
2. Abortion is consider as Murder, but not in all place, and you cannot force others to think in the same as you, right? As you don't want us to force your think same as us. Beside, One important fact is that these 0.4 Billions people would make the world smaller, with their children born by now, that would be another 1 Billion populars more, do you really want the world to be so jammed? Things got two sides, don't simply judge it this way.
3. As I know, Even some state in US still have death penalty, no death penalty doesn't = democracy
4. These workers are the problems to China, life won't suddenly get better for them. They need better education, policy and working opportunities. I hope and think the government has been and are helping them, If you compare 30 years ago when most regions of China were suffering similar situation.

The comments over here are updating too fast. If you wish, we can go to your blog and interact more, provide you have one. PS, I'm not hostile toward you, just think if you don't mind, could hear something from us as well beside keep urging and posting. I believe you don't want to post here for the purpose of posting.

Castro,

I read a lot of your comments, not going to answer one by one.

But to the 3 facts you listed,
1. I don't know where you get the number of 30,000,000+ get killed by CCP in Mao's CR, I never find that figure, please let me know your source, so I can gain some extre knowledge.
2. Abortion is consider as Murder, but not in all place, and you cannot force others to think in the same as you, right? As you don't want us to force your think same as us. Beside, One important fact is that these 0.4 Billions people would make the world smaller, with their children born by now, that would be another 1 Billion populars more, do you really want the world to be so jammed? Things got two sides, don't simply judge it this way.
3. As I know, Even some state in US still have death penalty, no death penalty doesn't = democracy
4. These workers are the problems to China, life won't suddenly get better for them. They need better education, policy and working opportunities. I hope and think the government has been and are helping them, If you compare 30 years ago when most regions of China were suffering similar situation.

The comments over here are updating too fast. If you wish, we can go to your blog and interact more, provide you have one. PS, I'm not hostile toward you, just think if you don't mind, could hear something from us as well beside keep urging and posting. I believe you don't want to post here for the purpose of posting.

To Pete:

If I understand your logic, since the Qing dynasty is not Han-Chinese, then we Chinese should not recognize any treaty it signed with Briton, USA, Russia, Japan and Germany? If I generalize it, whenever a new government comes to power (especially if it is formed mainly by another ethnicity), it can say all the predecessor's treaty are null and invalid? Is this the base for your assertion?

rymnd wrote:
"n your simple head, you NEVER understand why young people and students are so bitterly offended by western media. You started to think they are brainwashed, they are Chinese secret agent in disguise... blah blah blah.....

The reason why the west lost young Chinese people, is your inadequacy to understand other people's way of life.

STOP lecturing us on how to live our own life as if you know everything, quite the opposite you know nothing about us."

__

Wow... I had no idea you felt this way....

Oh wait. I did, because this is the same response every other pro-china writer has made on this forum. Thanks for your contribution. Did you get around to mentioning how ALL Americans supported the Iraq war and the atrocities there? Let me check..

No... Come on RMYD!! what kind of Chinese are you! You're supposed to criticize us as hypocritical for killing Iraqis and not criticizing our actions. THEN you attack us for not being capable of understanding your great minds!

This is very bush league RYMND, I expect better of you in the future.

rymnd wrote:
"n your simple head, you NEVER understand why young people and students are so bitterly offended by western media. You started to think they are brainwashed, they are Chinese secret agent in disguise... blah blah blah.....

The reason why the west lost young Chinese people, is your inadequacy to understand other people's way of life.

STOP lecturing us on how to live our own life as if you know everything, quite the opposite you know nothing about us."

__

Wow... I had no idea you felt this way....

Oh wait. I did, because this is the same response every other pro-china writer has made on this forum. Thanks for your contribution. Did you get around to mentioning how ALL Americans supported the Iraq war and the atrocities there? Let me check..

No... Come on RMYD!! what kind of Chinese are you! You're supposed to criticize us as hypocritical for killing Iraqis and not criticizing our actions. THEN you attack us for not being capable of understanding your great minds!

This is very bush league RYMND, I expect better of you in the future.

"Fact #1 600,000 civilians died since your invasion.
Fact #2 30,000,000 black slaves traded in America continent.
Fact #3 5,000,000 native American Indians were ethnically cleansed."

Thing about facts, is that everyone can use them to make different points. Talk about bias, what about China facts.

Fact#1 30,000,000+ killed by CCP in Mao's cultural revalution
Fact#2 400,000,000 abortions over the past 25 years. Yes many in the West see abortions as murde.
Fact#3 Thousands are executed every year in China
Fact#4 Tens of millions of Chinese migrant workers are treated no better than slaves

If you are trying to tell us that China in its history had not destroyed entire regional ethnic groups, please? The difference between the West and China is one, opportunity. China had enough to contend with and did not go out and explore the rest of the world. Europe is half the size of China land wise and had three times the number of ethnic groups. That lead to a lot of war, not like China did not have its ups and downs. The biggest atrocity in human history was not done by Americans or Chinese, but by the Spanish empire. 150 million South American and Central American natives gone in the 16th century. Ask the question, who stopped them from Africa and Asia? For as much as people hate the British, If not for them, the world would not have so many people today and everyone would be speaking Spanish.

To rymnd2008:

The US know's a lot about what it has done and many people have protested and written blogs, this blog has nothing to do with those things. The US know's nothing about CHina, that remains to be seen, but the fact you and others keep bringing up things that have nothing to do with the article. "Does a rapist use the fact his nabour is a murderer to excuse their actions?" No.

you wrote "STOP lecturing us on how to live our own life as if you know everything, quite the opposite you know nothing about us." Why? do you actually think if millions of chinese tell the US to stop, they will? No one is forcing you to read or listen. Works both ways, God I love freedom. The issue is not the West is saying, it is the fear that many will believe what is being said. Eventually the real truth will get out, is that something to fear?