Comments (804)

To Clampett,

I am the fellow who wrote the story that you didn't like. I think you should be more inventive but repeating yourself. Many projections you have on me as well.

To the fellow who wrote "to Masilius"
Given China's limittation I think she is already doing when you said in a world that you don't even need to learn other language even when abroad. Compared to western countries, China is quite OK with "small" countries.

Regarding "yi wen hua zhi", you must understand that, Communism took over China which is a western ideology. Communist China needs to be "hua zhi" first like the mogols and Manchus had been so. Today's China is like the Chinese that you used that is a product of her not-so-good modern history, she is only China-like but THE China. So you must be patient.

To Marsilius

Sorry to cut in. An open discussion. Hope it is OK.

Was that directed to me, nameless pigeon?

Where was my what? 'gavornment'? perhaps you are too far inside your nest to understand and put two and two together... I don't belong to any of these governments nor do I lay claim to any of them. They have proven themselves to be corrupt and selfish, they will get their just desserts. Katrina was the test for the Bushney team. They failed miserably, with support from their republican allies, they committed genocide on the city of New Orleans by neglect and outright malfeasance. If they are not made to answer for their transgressions in the good way, the people will be made to suffer as well, since they had to power to stop it and chose to instead become spectators.

Certainly, you are not helping. You are merely trying to evade responsability by exposing the transgressions of others. Where you not taught differently as a child? Where you not born with the instinct to do right? At what point was it changed for 'me is the only one that matters'?
You are not helping do anything other than feed your own enourmous ego. Unfortunately, it feeds on your soul.
Not sure what business it is of yours what African-Americans are enduring. If I had an inkling that you actually had their welfare in mind rather than feeding your ego some more, i would venture to honor such stupidity with a response... suffice it to say. The africans living in america have a better situation than their brethern seem to be having to endure in africa... but if you would like a sign that their liberation aproaches as well, then we could ask for a sign... what do you think it should be? something that cannot be mistaken for coincidence, I'm sure. How about something that hits the exploiters as well as makes a statement.

LET'S SEE WHAT THE LORD OF RENEWAL CAN PRESENT YOU AS A SIGN?

What do you think would be appropiate?

to Marsilius:

美国老百姓不用学外语，可以靠英文找工作，国外的大学也没国内的好或方便。旅游或住在国外，会不会外语跟只会英文差不多，世界上有足够的人会英文，对我们很方便。

中国内的爱国主义教育系统和中央电视台缺少自我批评的后果不助于和谐的外交关系。中国越跟世界接触到，中外莫些问题会越多。这对美国也好，外国人更讨厌中国的政策，讨厌美国政策的程度该会减少。

说美国的政策如何，起码会有些美国人愿意跟你讨论，不会像中国人那样，一说中国，国家主义的反应就来了。中国人喜欢找借口避免真正地对话，说老外不懂中国或者会打各种各样的比喻来比较两个完全不同的事。可能中国人只会跟中国人认真地谈中国。

大国不允许小国或国外老百姓的批评，就不是个大国。如果中国想别国认同中国是强大的，它要能够接受小国或非中国人的批评。否则中国无法《以文化之》，西方人也会多点批评中国。《聪明》里有耳朵，中国人不听别人的意见不利于中国全面的发展。听和同意是两码事，但听别人也就是有对话的开始。

If Beijing were slow, it were slow regardless if the quake victims were Hans or Tibetans. US gavornment was different with Katrina. China's P.M. went there immediately. Where was yours then...

Certainly, I am helping. Thanks for reminding. Hope you helped your fellow African-Americans too.

You senseless fool, shouldn't you be out there trying to help your people rather than spreading a dragon's breath?

The Dalai doesn't need to tell me anything, his teachers are my teachers. I listen directly to the trinity and Gaia uses me as her mouthpiece.

How the CCP responds to this disaster will make all the difference. Either take care of the people as one should, not following the example of the thugs in Myanmar and Sinna will prosper. Follow the ideology of destruction, the extremism of oppression, and Lord Shiva will introduce a change that will force all to work together to survive. This will not be easy if it is forced to compell the leaders to the correct action rather than you listening to constructive guidance. As always, we are given a choice, how you choose will determine the response of nature.

Hey, American Gigolo,

What did Dalai Lama tell you about Katrina? Nothing too?

That was nothing... a few tornadoes, a pittance.

Wait till you see what's about to happen off the west coast.

Is Clampett Richard Gere? The dumpness is so similar, can't help to guess.

Jed Clampett ;

You forgot Katrina already?

Well, did you hear her speak?

What do you think a shaking like that will do in the area of the three gorges?

Treat the people of Tibet right, give them their autonomy, ability to follow their religion and prosperity in their own way, and they will pay your protection racket like the gangster you are, but at least allow them to lve in peace and dignity... or suffer earth's wrath.

Upon visitting wedsites of similar subjects I suddently realized why in USA the racist term for white people is "white trash"(since it sounds so un-specific). It isn't about skin color and race, but about the mind: "Ugly Chinese", goons, thugs, "axis of evil", "rogue states" ... and many more for many others. Besides the white men who else would like to invent these trash concepts and stuff them in their own mind with passion? and try to sell them to others?

No offense. Just an observation.

Perhaps I'm in a better position to make a point for my 15 years of stay in china. As a singapore immigrant, i may conclude from my experience with many chinese and my information from a variety of resources that:
1.recent event: you lack suffiecient evidence to form your opinion on Tibet issue. Tibet has been part of China since Tang Dynasty (so-called in chinese history, about 600 AD)THe opinion that Tibet is part of China to chinese people is deep-rooted as Paris is part of france.
2.As far as i'm informed, CCP never shall voilate individual right. But there are times when local governments fail to implement CCP stipulation, a consequece of China's centralized power distribution and extremely underdevelopment of basic-level democracy.
3.for a developing country vast in land and population, varied in ethical groups, the current political structure is the only solution for its sustained development and stablity. You need to be much more informed of the country's history and culture.
4.Chinese people are kind and less aggressive than we are, if you know them better. And their kids are terribly clever, especially in maths&natural sciences, if you actually do some teaching as I do.
5.I support Beijing Olympics. It has nothing to do with political opinion.

Wow, I would have never figured that out without the paper demon letting me know.
Since I didn't bother to read more than the first couple of lines, I merely know the gist of your writing, but it was enough to show the level of poisoning your mind has incurred.

It's quite funny that you would think me christian... an assumption made from a lack of understanding and a quickness to jump to conclusions. Normal for the beast, it has a 'brain' but no spirit, so it can't access wisdom.

Enjoy you misery demon. It's well deserved, traitor to your species.

To Clampett

Hear youself out. You are the Christian in my story. See that now? Stupid!

To Castro

I agree, the Oplympics is overrated, yet who is obssessing over it by attacking it now? Boring!

To Jed Clampett:

Thanks for the discussion, i rest my case.

1.) funny, ccp can 'reeducate' the population, but can't seem to be able to reeducate it's members out of corruption. While I think, depending on the harm caused by the crime, murdering the culprit is unjustified... unless his actions resulted in many deaths and he's callous and unrepentant, perhaps there are some who deserve this resolution, perhaps not. For a person to pay for his crimes, he must be allowed to atone. Killing him only perpetuates the negative energy by creating negative kharma within the individual. That spirit learned nothing and will keep it's bad habits into the next reiteration, creating more hardship for others in the next life. Besides, it's a false solution. By putting him to death, you ensure that the methods of his crime will be hidden from others and no one will be able to benefit from the information lost with his death. If truly he's been killed at all, I've known of folks who'd been 'put to death' and later showed up alive in the caribean enjoying their wealth. The answer is true reformation of the individual, not additional murder.
2)I do not wonder at all. it was rhetorical, It's not the people of Sinna that are full of vitriol for the west. It's the CCP that feels it must set the tone, so it uses the media to affect those that are easily manipulated. They are tipically those ruled by negative energies and that is displayed in their writings.
Friend, enemy, bystander, they are merely lables of convenience. if you want someone to be your enemy, just lable him that and eventually he will become that. In reality, those in control create these false competitions to keep the humans busy while they abscond with the natural resources and work on disconnecting people from their true source.
3) information? it's easily seen by the prepared statements and language used by the tools of the PLA to flood these boards with messages. Those of us who are still connected can read between the lines and recognize the intent behind it. Like anyone would telegraph their punches that obviously. Sometimes a bluff can be a loosing hand that puts you in the street without any clothes on.
4)I for one am glad that you can extrapolate the sentiments of a billion people from the limited contact you've had with a few people who probably are either well off and happy at what is being done because they prosper, all others be damned, or afraid to speak honestly in a nation where speaking truth to power is met with torture, hardship for the family and death.
5) There is no difference between the CCP and any other party in control in the world... perhaps a few exceptions in the scandinavian countries. They are clubs of wealthy men who lust for more power and are willing to sign a deal with the devil to achieve it. If you think that kind of person would be fair in any of it's endeavors then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. While you try to make the contention one between the peoples of two nations, as is necessary to get the populace to fight for you, the truth is the people have no quarrels with each other. In fact, if allowed to mingle, they find many commonalities and similar ideologies. The contention is fabricated by those who work behind the scenes in the contentious countries and expect to make a healthy profit for themselves on the ensuing chaos and scarecity. There's more to it, but I doubt you would understand or even try to accept.

This is one of the most narrow-minded articles I have read from a respectable media source. You should offer a side of "Freedom Fries" with this article. Wow!

To Jed Clampett:

I am encouraged by your post in respond to mine.

I gather you are a very rational person with a good heart and first hand knowledge of China. Very impressive.

Now I would like to make a few points if I may, for discussion sake.

1) power has been abused by the CCP government
officials and it's quite rampant, very
disturbing indeed. I have stated in my last
post: corruption. But the CCP has tried to
solve it with iron fist, the convicted
officials received much harsher treatment then
any other country ( some were sentence to death
). Will that be enough? time will tell. But
corruption is every where and in every country,
not only in China. Democracy and election is
not the answer. What can we do to stop that
is a universal question.
2) you " wonder why the extreme vitriol toward
west in China",that is not true. When I left
China 25 years ago, USA was #1 friend and
Soviet Union was #1 enemy. Time changed,
political alignement changed. But even today,
the way chinese people describe the
relationship between China and USA is : "
neither a friend nor a enemy; is a friend yet a
enemy". complicated staff( I think scholars
from US has a new word for it: FRIENEMY ).
3) you stated that PLA " willing to send this
planet into a conflagration of propotions
previously unseen on earth". I don't know where
you get that information. I do recall there was
a PLA general made a personal statement in Hong
Kong, when respond to media question, that if
war broke out between China and USA in regard
to Taiwan and if USA attack China, then China
will not dismiss the option of nuclear war on
USA. It only meant, my opinion, that China is
not yet capable to fight a conventional war
against USA because they are behind in
military warfare capability. In a poker game,
bluff is allowed, don't you think? in reality,
USA has many times nuclear war head then China
has and had threaten to use them. am I right
or wrong?
4) majority of chinese people do believe in CCP,
maybe you think I am naive.
I still have relatives live in China and I have
been to many places and met with all kind of
people and that's the impression i got.
5) the basic difference between China and western
countries in regard to international policy is
very simple: to be or not to be. to mixed
politic with business or not to mixed.
well, if you want to mix politic with business,
then you have to lead by example or at least
use one standard to treat every one. what's
fair must be fair. isn't it?

Hi Moral Paper Tiger.

I read your posting, it was very amusing. lol. It must lose a lot in the translation. Not really that smart using "christian" vs "mobster", probably better to use "politician" vs "labourer", or something like that or "rich man" vs "poor man". Would create more sympathy. It just reinforced that neither side understands the other, period. As from everything I gather, it is mainly the pro-China side getting heated at the amount of attention and the type of attention, not the pro-West side. In your story it is the other way around. You actually think that any country or that 99% of western people would even lose 1 min sleep if there were no Olympic's. The vast majority think the Olympic's is and has been a big joke for decades. It would not get 25% percent of the attention if it was being held in say Brazil, but China just adds that extra contraversy, and we have seen nothing yet. I know that someone else on the blogg mentioned that the word "sacred flame" is not a religious point, but something that is changed in translation. For it is not sacred in the West and odds are, this will be the last Olympic run ever as Canada has decided against it. It started with the Germans in 1936 and will end with the Chinese in 2008. Interesting run. The olympic's is only about the host, the IOC, the sponsers and some athletes. I have not watched sinse Barcelona and very few poeple watch that I know and only one specific sport they have interest in. Well time will tell, plus I gather your type of post is more about reenforcing one side, rather to educate the other.

Of course, how could I have missed... inadvertently you've touched on the crux of the problem.
You do quite well to equate the CCP with gangsters, that is exactly the problem.

A bunch of gangsters raised on oppressing and abusing it's people, making exhorbitant wealth off of their misery while at the same time accusing others of doing the same.

Perhaps you should ask yourself, what is it that is afflicting humanity that makes them think violence is the way to resolve misrunderstandings. Murder the way to save face. Enslavement a valid way of gaining power.

Power gained through evil means is merely an illusion and usually destroys they that employ it. True power comes from somewhere else.

Where's your soul at? do you even understand what it is, or do you just believe what others tell you rather than the truth that touches you from within?

You can't possibly be stupid enough to think that anyone would read the claptrap little storie you post in hopes of igniting discord and divisiveness. Or perhaps you are just flooding the boards to make that which bothers you harder to see.
Either way. Your era is over beast. Time to let the other side of the coin show it's face.

Since my comment under a different topic applies here even better, I am going to put it up here again. I hope the host doesn't mind.

A Gangster-turned-Christian apparently is trying to convert another Gangster, here is their dialogue:

Christian: You gangster are doing all bad things no good! You got to convert in order to save your soul.

Gangster: What you are saying about me isn’t entirely true. More truth will come out.

Christian: The whole world believes what I say.

Gangster: That’s because you control the world. However, even if what you are saying about me were true, you still can't preach to me like this.

Christian: Why not?

Gangster: You were worse regarding what you did to that red Indian girl and that black African boy. You were a white colonist and a slave owner.

Christian: That doesn’t count. It was only in the past.

Gangster: But the descendants of that red Indian girl are still going out to protest on your birthday -- every July 4th.

Christain: Precisely! They are free to protest! Freedom! Democracy! Do you have those?! Do you! Do you!

Gangster: You seem very forgetful, and shamelessly self-forgiving and self-congraduating. Well, however, you are still doing the same, see what you are doing to that Iraqi girl. You are an invader and a war profiteer.

Christian: That is different. It isn’t about me, it is about you, you!

Gangster: That seems very indifferent of you.

Christian: No! I am full of passion, My heart aches when I think of that poor Tibetan boy! I hate any injustice! It is my duty to do justice to this world!

Gangster: But that Hindi guy took Miss Sikk Kim too…

Christian: You shut up, I don’t know who Miss Kim is, the Tibetan boy aches my heart whenever I think of him! Behides, that Hindi guy is basically a good man but you are such a bad person!

Gangster: What!?... Why?

Christian: Because that Hindi guy is a democracy and you are not. Democrasy is good. No democracy no good, period!

Gangster: All democracies must be good?

Christian: Yes.

Gangster: How so?

Christian: Because they are like me.

Gangster: Man… I am almost wordless. So far, I must say that you are unreasonably self-centered and self-righteous.

Christian: Shut up! I know the Truth, God speaks to me! You don’t do what I say, I am going to boycott your f**king Olympics!

Gangster: ……Wait a minute……Gosh! Be respectful for yourself! The Olympics is yours! It is your tradition, I am hosting it for you to spread your culture. YOUR culture!

Christian: Mine is universal! Serving my universals is your honor! Failing it is your shame!

Gangster: So if a westerner hosting a Chinese New Year Parade, for whatever reason a Chinese guy doesn't like that westerner and pulls the westerner's pants off in public, you think it is the westerner's shame?

Christian: Yes, because he is embarrassed.

Gangster: It is the westerner's embarrassment indeed, but it is the Chinese guy's shame. For sure, that poor westerner is not going to do the Chinese New Year Parade again. Whose loss is it? Making the Olympics Ugly, yes, my embarrassement, yet your shame! Don't you get that?

Christian: It is your shame! your shame! I insist!

Gangster: Only confused, rude, and fundamentally un-cultured people would think and act that way. You seem very arrogant too. I used to worry how I could catch your guys up, but if this is the character and quality of your men, I am no more worried. Your men are no match of my men! You are no match of me!

Christian: Shut up! You are just such a bad person. And you are stubborn!

Gangster: You are a hypocrite!

Christian: I condemn you!

Gangster (angrily): I contempt you!

Christian: The contempt is mutual!

Gangster: Let it be!

(A moment of silence)

Gangster: Maybe I don’t need that stupid Olympics any more. I am going to cancell it. You will see whose loss it is.

Christian: Wait! You can’t do that either.

Gangster: … … How come? Don’t you want to stop it anyway?

Christian: I still need it to make money in you.

Gangster: Money!? I thought your concern was the Tibetan boy…

Christian: Yes, I still love that poor boy, my heart aches whenever I think of that poor boy, but we can talk about him some other time. It is about me this time.

Gangster: But… but…earlier you just said that it is all about me! The bad person…me?

Christian: It is about me now.

Gangster: So confussing… When will it be about me again?

Christian: I will remind you when I need you the bad person again.

Gangster: You are such a Moral Paper Tiger !

(The End)

To be envied and feared as much as the ugly Americans?

Hey, it's a compliment. We have arrived!!!

Well 'so it is', Hostility or contention is merely a function of indivicual perception. Believe what you see, believe what you hear, but realize that the way your feeling changes how the world appears.

In the west there are media outlets that offer nothing but disinformation. The national enquirer in the US is one such publication. While there are those who believe the contents within it's pages,there are others who look at it for entertainment, to laugh at the ridiculously absurd stories within. It helps us recognize when others are attempting to BS us. The couple of posts that appeared between your statements and this one are a clear indication of that.

I am deeply troubled by the posturing and verbiage being diseminated by the PLA. It shows that it is willing to send this planet into a conflagration of proportions previously unseen on earth merely because their 'feelings are hurt'.

I remember with fondness my time spent in China learning about the mind and body. It's people were very kind and quite generous even though they lived under an oppressive overlord that caused great suffering among the people. You see, even though the PLA sends it's tools to these boards and tries to equate the people with it's government, we have learned reality is much more nuanced.

My recent communications with emigres, escapees and students from China and it's 'protectorates' lead me to believe that generalized statement that 'they know what steps the CCP are taking, and they believe in the leadership of CCP from the bottom of their heart.' are either naive or somewhat deceptive. What i've been told is that they understand that the CCP has set up the opressive structure in such a way that any type of realistic discussion of problems is stiffled and eliminated. The CCP understands that a very effective tool of population control is fear. The beauty of fear is that you don't have to implemented on all the population, merely on a few and then present it to the others. They will avoid conflict because they know their contender doesn't know how to discuss things, it only reacts violently and opressively.

Now i don't mean to ridicule your last statement, but it just asks for further scrutiny.

'I like to take this oppotunity to point out one thing: Government like CCP is accountable for every action it takes because the government is not "elected" according to westen standard; but government like USA is NOT accountable because it is "elected"! Ironic isn't it?'

The CCP, since it is the only holder of power in the nation, has to answer to know one. It's complete control of the PLA makes it so it can set bellicose equipment and action on it's own people in it's own capital. People who were demanding accountability. They were murdered by their leaders rather than having their grievances addressed. What party leaders where put to death? Who paid by losing the wealth they had criminaly accumulated through party affiliation and abuse of power? just curious, perhaps you can elucidate.

In the west, political leaders are put to trial and held accountable for their misdeeds, and this is publicised because there is a pluralistic structure that allows many points of view and ideals. No one escapes scrutiny. Hopefully, soon we will see the current US administratio brought to justice for the crimes they have perpetrated. I guess it depends on how much the uber-wealthy that profited by the administrations actions control the media and therefore public sentiment.

Like you say,'When a person or a organization or a nation has reconized problems and doing the best to correct the problems, as a by stander, one should encourage the action with friendly advise, not to discourage with overly criticize comment.' which makes me wonder why the extreme vitriol towards the west in china. Sure, they did what humans have been doing for a few centuries now. Invading, exploiting the populace and resources, then left. Much was lost in this action. National culture and identity, language, knowledge and the ability to empathize with other's plight. Hard to feel for others when you yourself are in such trouble. But the west seems to have done pretty well to bring those nations up to modern standars, even though the exploitation continues in all nations, to all peoples. Why is the same logic that you begin with above, not applied equally to all participants... even in your posts>

Oh yes, I must now confess

- I am brainwashed by CCP
- I am agent of CCP
- I am typing at gun point
- I am so suppressed in China
- I am so admire your system of electing your president
- I am so admire your freedom of speech
- I am so admire your freedom of carrying guns
- nothing in China is good
- nothing in China ever works
- nothing in China worth anything
- China is too crowded
- China is air polluted
- China's highway must be paid to use
- China's milk is too expensive comparing with the west
- China has no flavourable cheese
- China allows smoking vehicles on roads
- China allows motorbiker wearing no helmet

You feel much happier to see all that, aren't you?

So funny to see pro-US people are not losing points in arguments. Now, what they can do, is to resort to branding people

- brainwashed
- secret agent
- stupid
- not living in the land of freedom
- not allowed to demo against Chinese government
- living in the west, go back to China
- blah blah blah.....

In their simple head and mind, against whatever government does, is very cool regardless right or wrong. Therefore, if don't say bad things about your government, you are bad too. Simple, isn't it?

Their argument is getting thinner and thinner, weaker and weaker. the westerners are sub-consciously brainwashed by their media without knowing being brainwashed. Sad, isn't it?

Some people even typing spanish. What a joke.

Las maquinas son sordas y ciegas pero sablen hablar, y hablar, y hablar. Aunque no entienden realmente lo que dicen. Deja a ese automatico y busca otro blog donde haya conversacion mas constructiva. A esos no se les puede hablar directamente, por eso que yo lo hago de forma indirecta con palabras que para su cerebro no tienen sentido pero para su espiritu trae un poco de esperanza. No permitas que cambien tu character con repeticion de tonteras. cuando veas que es lo mismo de siempre, sin intento de conversacion constructiva, ignoralo y metele materia que lo haga titubear en su pensar y su apoyo por lo que es malo.

Me parece que tienes una situacion economica bastante estable. Si quieres ayudar y invertir, lee a un tal Viktor Schauberger, es uno de esos scientificos naturales que aprendio de naturaleza. Es buena lectura, creo que podras comprender sus teorias.

Correction:
to; Jed Clampett, not Jed Plamette in my last post.

sorry Jed

To Jed Plamette:

There are lots of things that the CCP deserved to be criticized: corruption is the most obvious; widening gap between the rich and the poor; public health care system is very poor; pollution situation is pretty bad... to name a few.
But the CCP knows the problems and is doing a good job trying to solve the problems. Oh, almost forgot: the freedom of speech and media. True, China still has lots work to do, but if you compared now to 20 years ago, it's night and day and it's getting better all the time.

When a person or a organization or a nation has reconized problems and doing the best to correct the problems, as a by stander, one should encourage the action with friendly advise, not to discourage with overly criticize comment.

Why the chinese posters refused to criticized China? Because they know what steps the CCP are taking, and they believe in the leadership of CCP from the bottom of their heart.

But the most important thing is : in chinese culture , us comes first, me comes last.

I guess that's why you and most westeners feel confused and don't understand.

Most posters ( includs you Jed )are honest people, why can we discuss in a peaceful manner?

I like to take this oppotunity to point out one thing: Government like CCP is accountable for every action it takes because the government is not "elected" according to westen standard; but government like USA is NOT accountable because it is "elected"! Ironic isn't it?

And to follow up to my previous post. The logic that makes me think "I am fairly certain that SOME of the posters are official chinese government bloggers" is that with yours, mine and other "active" participants in this blogg are respoding to one anothers points, referencing and countering each other in what I had earlier thought was a constructed discussion while about 15% or maybe more of the posts are just standard, frequent, and appearing posts, that do not seem to respond to anything specific, if at all. Most of those responsible have for the most part went away and it appears to me that only about 6 or so have continued. Does the above seem logical? Over the past two to three weeks, the same thing has happened on over a dozen other article bloggs, the first few days there seems to be frequent and repetative postings that are either "word for word" the same or with very slight differences. Is this just random, that I have read probably over 500 posting in over a dozen different sights, with only about 8 to 10 differing points, with a handful of slight veriations, none of them to anyone specific or making any reference and seeming to me to be out of place in my experiance with similar bloggs in the past. My experience with political, cultural, historical, etc.... bloggs is rather extensive, meaning 100's if not over a 1000 different ones. The only thing I have not read on this one is people trying to get others to go to some dating, porn, or escourt site.

Thanks for the responses to my last post. Now a few words for Castro who apologized for the transgressions the West had committed against China. I retold a few historical incidents not to rekindle old grudges, but to provide a background pix for the so-called "tibet issue"---the Brits had their eyes set on tibet since 1880, the US since 1950s.

Now, about Castro's "sorry", I believe in your sincerity, thus I accept it in the spirit it was offered. I do not believe in collective guilt, but I do believe in collective responsibility. Especially in democracy, we choose the right path by choosing the right leaders. But unfortunately, even in a democratic system, the freely-elected leaders can lead us astray.

In the English language, "sorry", a simple, seemingly humble five-letter word , carries more weight than it seems. It is of noble nature. Sometimes it is casually uttered, other times it is offered with deep emotions. But always, it is meant to be a peace offer. As a gesture of goodwill, it can bridge separation, diminish misunderstanding, soothe hurt feelings.

Human conflicts ,whether among peoples or among nations, usually come from separation, with emphasis on differences and discrimination.It is the mindset of "Us vs them". Yet what connects
human beings is their similarity--the basic innate needs and emotions. The needs for food,shelter, security, love, dignity, acceptance,freedom from fear and want, etc. are
universal and connect us all in a increasingly shrinking and fragile world. Artificial differences in religion or in ideology should be regarded as life's incidental variations, not as inevitable obstacles in human relationships.

Unfortunately there are lot of strident emotions voiced in these posts. The "Us vs them" is a recurrent theme here. Perhaps in the final analysis, in a world damaged and exhausted by over-consuming, there is no Us or Them, only we, the common villagers shipwrecked in the same boat in the same stormy ocean.

Your "sorry"is refreshing among these heavy rants and emotions. It is a simple humble little word, yet its power lies in its humility. When it comes from the human heart,it touches the human soul.
Thus the potent power of the word "sorry"should never be slighted, just like we never dare to slight the magical power of spring flowers, rays of sun beams, or a child's smile that speaks of angels and heaven.

Hi, someone wrote the following in response to my post

"your proposition of many pro-china here are official posters are ludicurous, which says how much is the depth of your so-called "reason". you said pro-china side makes only limited arguments and basically repeating the same thing. Funny! Your side has been repeating the same thing on tibet for quite half a century and i don't see anything new added recently."

vs what I said

I am fairly certain that SOME of the posters are official chinese government bloggers, as there are to many repeats of the same message and there seems to be a limited amount of arguments THEY make.

Please reread what I said. I said SOME, which is logical as I went off and said the repetition of SOME bloggers as is my experience on many other bloggs. How does SOME turn into MANY or ALL on the pro-China side? Plus I said THEY, refering to the SOME? Now I would have expected you to respond that the same can be said with Pro-west and I would COMPLETELY agree with you, as I have stated that the back and forth with the same point is not helpful. The main thing that I now think, is this is completely an issue of pro-China vs pro-West to you, nothing in the middle? I have NEVER made any reference to Tibet or Dali Lama being right and China CCP being wrong. Nor did I ever point fingers, ever. I conseded your point on health factors being a hinderance on Han and I appriciated the insight. I also defended chinese posters "Some have/do" and I was just saying that I think that the perception that all chinese never say anything negative about China was false, then I went on and said in fewer words that the reason some people may think that is because I am "fairly" certain that there are SOME people posting over and over again, and you can not 100% tell me that it is not possible that there maybe a link to CCP. Please reread my original posting.

Now if I acted like the pro-China bloggers I contend are flooding the bloogs, I would say "The native and slavery issue is the Wests internal affair, so mind your business as you are hurting western feelings." That point was very low for me and I did not want to make it, but I felt a stong pointed needed to be made, even if I myself do not agree with it. You making reference to that SICK FU** in Austria as if it is only in the west or typical of the west or the tipe of the Ice Berg was a Very low point from your part and very similar to someone previously making a link to China's preceived misdeeds having caused the outbreak among China's children. Do we really want to sink so low that we can site and point that type of fingers, as this can go behond our lifetimes.

Castro wrote: "Some have/do. I am fairly certain that some of the posters are official chinese government bloggers, as there are to many repeats of the same message and there seems to be a limited amount of arguments they make. Not to worry as they are actually doing the opposite of what is intended, unless there intent is to reinforce commonly held, western media biased reporting. They only reinforce the opposite of what so many of them state, Not understanding each other is mutual."

castro, i said in a previous post that i see you as trying hard to reason and to be disinterested and balanced in your arguments, which i appreciate.

from what i quoted above in your latest post, it's clear enough that you're just a "so-called". your proposition of many pro-china here are official posters are ludicurous, which says how much is the depth of your so-called "reason". you said pro-china side makes only limited arguments and basically repeating the same thing. Funny! Your side has been repeating the same thing on tibet for quite half a century and i don't see anything new added recently. as one poster named Debunk King well put it, if chinese refuse to respond to your totally repetitive charges year after year, then you'd say you are right. if chinese begin to respond like now, you'd say either we are ugly or we have limited arguments. What a LOSER you ARE!

A central argument your side put forward is the so-called Han Chinese flooding tibet, that there are so many Han Chinese there outnumber the tibetans, that Han Chinese dominate the local governance leaving no room for tibetan representation.

if you have read my previous posts regarding the background of why there are Han Chinese serving in TAR government you should at least begin a serious post reflecting on the validity of your side's proposition on this innundating Han Chinese immigration issue. I'm yet to see it.

Please use your reason and tell us: Lhasa is 3600 meters high, and there are probably even higher areas in TAR, the health risk is significant, and medicare system in the rest part of China is no different from a collapse, health issue is now called one of the three "mountains" crushing the back of Han Chinese (education, housing the other two). tell us, why any sane reasonable Chinese would ever think of going to live permanently in TAR given such formidable costs?

since you believe your side has loads of fabulous argument, please let us know how you reach the conclusion that Han Chinese is flooding in tibet? please don't tell me you read it from Dalai Lama's speech and or speeches based on his speech. he can't even reconcile himself with the figure he claimed reduced by Han Chinese with the current tibetan population census.

and to the extent that there are Han Chinese living there, tell us why you think they are not entitled to live there permanently if they choose so? if Han Chinese allow 1 million of South Koreans to live in China, using the very limited resource this land may offer, why can't Han Chinese choose to live in Lhasa if they really want to take the health risk?

who built those roads in tibet, Tibetan or Han Chinese? what do you think of the likelihood that large Tibetan labour would be used to build those infrastructures that provides convenience primarily to local Tibetans? If Han Chinese is the main or the exclusive source of labor force doing those terribly challeging road work, if local tibetans are using those roads to kowtow all the way to Lhasa to the Potala Palace, is there a problem of both ethics and morality (quoting Qian's insightful distinction)that Han Chinese are accused of planning cultural/racial genocide by tibetan exiles and all their western backers?

as to your question "who would pay for the compensation due to the natives in american and oceania", well, i know that Chinese should not pay for it, that's manefestly clear. You and your fellow whites pay for it, you all share a joint liability in this, as to how to divide this liability internally among yourselves, that's not our business. The Chinese need to remind you whites:

1. the liability to make up for your past sins aginst the natives are exclusively yours and you are a lot lot lot away from making your apology a genuine one, because natives are a lot lot lot away from the stage to live a life as comfortable as the UPPER-CLASS of your white race lives.

2. if you cannot make good your proclaimed "feel sorry" to the natives in financial terms, that's a debt on your shoulder; DON'T try to shift burden to anyone else, DON'T try to CONSTRUCT others as ugly so that your massive moral/ethical deficit can miraculously turn out to be massive moral/ethical surplus.

3. if you are obsesesd in doing the DON'T, then be conscious that we are not dumb, the world at large is not full of dumb people that can't see through.

To conclude, I would say the west has long suffered from a psychological problem. you need a super-psychiatrist but who sorrily is non-existent. it's just like that recently reported austrian father who locked his daughter underground for unbelievably some twenty years and screwed her through and through and even touched his granddaughter born out of such abhorring incest. the man appears fairly normal during daytime. his wife knows nothing. his neighbour know nothing. he's just a folk. and this happens in the beautiful cultured country of austria. on the social psychological problem the west suffers, this might be just one annecdote or the tip of the iceburg.

The Olympic flame reached the top of the world Thursday morning, carried to the summit of Mount Everest by climbers wearing oxygen masks to breathe in the thin air of the earth's highest point.

A 21-year-old Tibetan woman -- the youngest member of the expedition -- carried the flame atop the peak.

The climbers started their ascent at 3 a.m. Thursday (3 p.m. Wednesday) along the Tibetan side of Everest, known there as Chomolungma. Twenty-two of the 31 climbers were Tibetan.

Hi Jed Clampett:

"Do you ever wonder why the 'Chinese' posters on these boards never admit that china has done anything wrong?"

Some have/do. I am fairly certain that some of the posters are official chinese government bloggers, as there are to many repeats of the same message and there seems to be a limited amount of arguments they make. Not to worry as they are actually doing the opposite of what is intended, unless there intent is to reinforce commonly held, western media biased reporting. They only reinforce the opposite of what so many of them state, Not understanding each other is mutual.

Do you ever wonder why the 'Chinese' posters on these boards never admit that china has done anything wrong? Or how they always want to link the western governments, and the plutocracy that controls them, with the populace? Could it be they are trying to do the same thing western governments did so long ago? instill a hatred in the populace in order to use them to start a war between countries so that they can take advantage of the situation to enrich themselves and control even more of the worlds wealth.

Could chinese posters ever find anything of substance to criticize about their nation? The way young girls are brought into the cities to supposedly work and help their family and then exploited and abused perhaps? The way people are sent to re-education camps when they have views that differ from the party line?

People in the west are being brainwashed systematically by their government and media unconsciously.

1. when ethnic minority, in China, live on their own. the west complains that these people are second class citizen in China and being neglected;

2. when ethnic minority, in China, is being helped by promoting education, science and technology. the west complains that these people's identity and culture are vanishing and are not respected;

Not matter what's happening in China, it is wrong, therefore, China should pay NO attention at all to the west. This is just an excuse for China bashing.

One more way to illustrate how americans are VERY ugly and hypocrates.

In 18th century, during the expedition of the west america, tribes of Native Indian refused to give way. In this scenarios, what would happen?

pro-US readers will tell you, of course,

1. we gave them "freedom of speech"
2. we gave them "right to vote"
3. we gave them "representative in our congress"
4. we gave them "dialogue and peace talk"
5. we gave them "roadmap to peace"
6. we gave them "presevation of their identity and culture"
7. we gave them "blah blah blah blah blah"

Amazing, isn't it? In fact, Native Indian got nothing but rounds rounds of bullets and cannon balls.

Comparing with this, China's treatment to tibet was, is, will always be better than that.

"That means money."

How much money? Who will pay it? Most Natives died from disesas they did not know how to prevent and starvation, not direct killing. The Spanish did in most of the Indians in South and Central America, but now they are split into many different countries, that continued the oppression. The US as it is today was originally split between England in the East, France in the centre and Spain/Mexico in the West. Who will get it and how will it be divided? The US and Canada have special funding for Natives, they do not pay tax and they can setup special types of businesses that others can not on there land. There have been hundreads of small native protests and I know some in Canada have lead the courts to return land or additional payments. With regards to slavery, that is a different set of issues. How do you define slavery, who started it, who benefited it. The UN defenition inlcudes children working, prostitution and actual purchasing people as forms of slavery. How many countries today have slavery right now under such definitions? A day does not go by that there is not a child work scandle or prostution ring or actual the sale of people, especially women for wives or sex workers in this world. With past slavery, that actually originated in Africa, when the Portuguesse arrived. Slavery was a part of some African tribes, when they went to war with each other, they often took prisoners as slaves. Those African tribes would trade with the Portuguese for goods and in turn, the Portuguese would sell them to others or ship them off to Brazil. Then the Spanish, Dutch, and English got involved. People have this idea that the west invaded Africa and used force to enslave the local population, some did, but a lot of it was in trade, at least at the start. If it was all forced, why did not the west enslave all the Indians, Asians, etc... Well, maybe it was all a matter of approach or opportunity. The "new" world as Europe had deemed it was divded between Spain and Portugal back in the early 1500's. Portugal got Africa, most of Asia, and the Eastern Part of North and South America and Spain got the rest. They had the right to spread the christian religion to those parts of the world, but Spain took it as there right to control and conqure there part and Portugal took it as the right to create a monopoly on trade and domination of the sea. After about 80 years, England, France and the Dutch wanted in on it and the stakes got much higher. The sad truth, many see the history as the west exploiting everyone else, which is true, but the rest of the world sufferred due to the fighting in Europe between the powers there. They needed resources, money, land, etc so as to better fight each other in Europe and the rest of the world was forced to be involved . A lot of the western powers used the rest of the world as pawns. The Dutch convinced Japan to kick Portugal out due to the fast spread of Catholisism and fear that it created, yet it was about trade. The french and english used Native tribes as soldiers against each other, Spain just went on a killing spree, Portugal handed over a lot of its holdings to England for protection and fought the Dutch everywhere on Earth. Etc... Well, we do not need to be a prisonar of this ugly past.
Unfortunatly a lot of what happened between England/Spain/France/Portugal/Dutch/etc. in the past seem to be playing between USA/EU/Russia/Chin. The fear is that the players have changed, but how much has the game changed.

"That makes sense. The times they refer to Tibet leadership, it always seems like it is a communist party appointy, like Hu was in the 80's."

In fact, back in China it's widely believed that even Hu himself, when being the Party-Sectary in TAR in the 80's, didn't spend all the time there; he, too, had to move down the plateau to the plain ground for recuperation.

And one thing that naturally comes when most Han seconded officials have to from time to time move down the plateau for health reasons, you can imagine that during their absense who would be handling their job? I think not unreasonbale to specualte that a considerable portion of the job during their absence is delegaged to those of Tibetan ethnicity, since they physically can always afford to be there. While this doesn't lead to the inference that those of Tibetan ethnicity would play a dominant role locally, at least it points to the possiblity that those of Han ethnicity also don't a role as dominant as supposed to be in the West. Plus, one need to think about the level of education by the local officials of Tibetan ethnicity. If they are not educated in science they wouldn't fit to do the job of say planning for a telecommunication system in TAR- for the locals to view CNN say or receive a mobile call from their relative from Dalai Lama's Dharamsala in India. It's only natural that Han officials would play relatively leading role in such things for the simple reason that if Tibetans want to read science in China they'd better read it in Chinese language; as exile Xu Minxu analyzed in his pivetol book, Tibetan language is still lacking in its capacity to generate modern-day science terminologies; playing political correctness of language in things like science can be dangerous. Maybe in the long run Tibetan language is fit for studying physics, chemistry, but that takes time and investment, and for now, be realistic, if you want to introduce science and technology to TAR, you still have to rely on Chinese language as an apparatus, and the Han Chinese are certainly fitter to do the job- while this means they have to take a considerable health risk if they agree to work in TAR.

To Castro,

There is a difference between morality and ethics, I hope you understood that in my first "angery", "non-forgiving" comment that got your attention. As well, there is a differnece between honesty and sincerity, one can appologize (honesty) but never confesses (sincerity). Regonizing wrong doings on red Indians etc. is only an honest appology, one should not hide behind it from a true effective confession. The former only requires change of mind, the later heart. As it has been edvident that the insincerity and arrogance of the west in the past month or so stay the same. In fact, this is true Ugliness.

To Jian,

"Westerners should whip their media hard."

The issue with that, which is what in the end started all the debate is the following;
1) most in the west do not take the media very seriously
2) most in the west know that a lot of it is bias and speculation
3) there really is no mechanism to harm them or "whip" them hard
4) to shut them up would be a violation of free speech. Free speech is not necessary turthful, just free.

"But agreeing to move to live in TAR for say three or four years even with a higher salary and ranking I bet is always the last thing the absolute majority of Han Chinese would ever consider. A critical factor here is health. Lhasa is some 3600 meters high. The health implication is not just as simple as you feel some headache."

That makes sense. The times they refer to Tibet leadership, it always seems like it is a communist party appointy, like Hu was in the 80's.

The only three ways to "punish" western media is to ignore them or to boycott the parent company (CNN is owned by General Electric I believe, etc.) or to register complaints with the national broadcast agencies of a country

To Jian and Castro,

"Regarding forgiveness: The west has been unusually lucky, most victmized cultures to the west are forgiveful ones. China, India... are not revengeful cultures, and many of others, if revengeful at all, no more existent or too weak. 9/11 was already a very odd one."

Castro, "the good indian is the dead indian". If apology is really meant to be an apology, it should have come with genuine actions to compensate for the native's loss in America and Oceania and Africa. That means money. Is there now any, ANY, Indian native now among the top 500 richest persons in America? As a fair go, I think the Indian group, just by receiving compensation, should have long ago produced quite a few richest persons in the world, with the rest living at least a middle-class life. Is that the case now? No, and it'll never be. Because, for the simple reason, they are too small in number, therefore constitutes no formidable political voice, therefore can be left aside, while allowing a few cosmetic symbolic demonstrations for the native people's rights may even enhance the image of democracy. let the natives protest, because that'll lead them to nowhere.

Reminds me of living in La Paz for a couple of years. While I was lucky to be one of the unnaffected by the altitude sickness, many of the group I was with became very ill. Some could only cope by using what nature provided the Inca's with, coca leaves and lime. Interesting culture the Inca. Before they got sickened previous to the spaniards arrival, they had built a utopian civilization. They prospered for centuries, created wonderful art and handicrafts, developed a codified language of color paterns and pictures, eliminated hunger, enjoyed a relative peace, developed a system of health prevention and treatment including surgery. Man, talk about doing alot while we turn our attention to the benefit of all rather than the domination by the few, no?