Pomfret's China

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The Ugly Chinese

Move over ugly American, make room for the ugly Chinese.

In Seoul on Sunday, groups of Chinese students accosted protesters demonstrating against China's treatment of North Korean refugees and Beijing's policies in Tibet. The attacks by the Chinese occurred as the Olympic torch wended its way on its seemingly never-ending journey around the world. The South Korean government was justifiably angry. China, after initially denying the events occurred, has now taken steps to still the waters. But the damage has been done. China's angry youth - called "fen qing" in Chinese - are ruining their country's reputation around the world and spelling the end of a decade-long honeymoon that the world has had with China.

The flare-up was the latest deeply troubling and profoundly weird event to mar the globe-trotting journey of the torch, which the Beijing government has dubbed "the sacred flame." (Remember, these dudes are officially atheists.) Before Seoul, we had Chinese cops in blue and white tracksuits manhandling demonstrators in Paris and London; we had a Chinese woman in the United States who participated in a pro-Tibet protest being identified on a listserv run by Chinese students; now her parents are on the run in China and her high school in Qingdao has revoked her diploma; and we've witnessed the incessant hounding of Tibetan and other speakers on US campuses by Chinese students. In cities around the world, the Chinese embassy has fanned the passions of the "angry youth" by encouraging them to demonstrate, handing out T-shirts and flags.

While I have no problem with displays of patriotic feeling, the only thing these "angry youth" are accomplishing is turning the world away from China. And they are not alone in this ill-fated effort to get China's point across. China's propaganda machine is also seriously in need of repairs.

For a few years there, the tone adopted by spokespeople of China's government was downright suave. Background briefings. Check. A quiet drink with journalists. Check. Even a bowling event without a government minder. Check. But these days, it seems like someone has disinterred Cultural Revolution propagandist and Gang of Four member Zhang Chunqiao and put him at the helm.

After the March riots in Tibet, the Tibetan government proclaimed a "people's war" against "splittism" (somebody should really tell them to lose that word) and the party boss there called the Dalai Lama "a jackal clothed in a monk's robes, and a vicious devil who is a beast in human form." A few days later the Ministry of Foreign Affairs called House Speaker Nancy Pelosi "disgusting." And the amazing thing was the Chinese expected to be taken seriously.

Finally, there's China's "ship of shame" - packed with arms for the government of Zimbabwe's president Robert Mugabe - on its own troubled journey to first South Africa and now Angola. In both places, dock workers refused to unload the weapons. It's a coincidence but also a bad one because China has been focusing a lot of diplomatic capital on improving its ties to Africa and the rest of the Third World.

What does this all mean for China? To me, it means the end of an era of China's "soft power."

For the past decade, China's "soft power" has helped fuel Beijing's rise by attempting to assuage fears of an expansionist China. Whether it be the establishment overseas of hundreds of language-teaching Confucian Institutes (there are more than a dozen in the US), the pay-out of millions of dollars to favored academics, preferential trade deals, or smart financial and foreign policy, China's "soft power" has been a key cog in the wheels of Chinese diplomacy. Josh Kurlantzick published a book on it last year. In 2003, Jane Perlez of the New York Times wrote a series of pieces about the issue - her general thesis being that the Chinese were beating America at its own game. Public opinion polls among Southeast Asian nations earlier this year put China ahead of the Japan and the United States as the country currently considered the region's most important partner.

But now across the globe China is dropping in the polls. And it's not due to lack of contact with the Chinese, people who are polled say, it's because we're getting to know them better. Even before the latest developments, a fear of China was rising in the West. Polls taken before the events in Tibet showed that 1) in Europe, China has overtaken the U.S. as the biggest threat to global stability in the eyes of Europeans and 2) in the United States, China has replaced North Korea as one of the top three U.S. enemies - after Iran and Iraq.

All this should provide someone in China's government cause to ponder. At the very least, it has prompted some leading Chinese intellectuals and artists to speak out. Speaking in Sydney earlier today, Chinese artist and architect Ai Weiwei, who helped design the "bird's nest" Beijing National Stadium for the Olympics, criticized China's government for encouraging "nationalist sentiment." Ai criticized the nationalists as well.

"It's blind; it's sentiment without a clear intellectual concept. It's crazy, what they're so excited about," Ai told reporters in Australia.

It's sadly ironic that during a week that began with Chinese students rampaging through the streets of a foreign capital beating demonstrators, the man who gave the world one of the most incisive critiques of Chinese culture died. Bo Yang, the great Chinese philosopher, writer, former political prisoner and author of one of the most incisive critiques of Chinese culture, passed away on Tuesday in Taiwan. The native of Hebei-province long railed against the type of group-think evidenced by today's "angry youth." The title of Bo's best known work? "The Ugly Chinese and the Crisis of Chinese Culture."

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Comments (871)

Native Chinese:

Whatever we agree or not with any negative points on China, we should be more aware that a stronger China government, stronger Chinese culture could only be built in Chinese people's support and understanding, not on any other nations.
Be stronger, Chinese people, and be more tolerable to critism, like a Panda, which should be recognized as a ture Chinese spirit.
Our country will need 50-100 years more to stand up with spirit. Let's expect that.

papertiger:

To "Anonymous"

China didn't "beg" for help. On the other hand, if China refused help, you would have even more to say. Don't you think?

Corruption probably exists, but I think you exagerated it much. Overall, Beijing did a much better job than Washington. I think this is a fair conclusion.

By the way, back in 1992 (?), China had a serious flood (almost 1/4 of the country was affected), and China did "beg" for help, and recieved some $40,000 charity from US. You see, begging didn't help when you really needed it. (My numbers may be a bit off since I was too young back then, but I think I got the scale right).

Anonymous:

"China's reaction to the earth quake already proves that not all hearts are "polluted", and not all "angry youths" are useless. 9/11 and Katrina should have had similar effects on the Americans, but unfortunately they have not. You see, China isn't that hopeless."

Not hopeless, but not all is rossy either. If China had a 9/11 style attack, what do you think would happen? Second, there has been some negatives that have come out of peoples reactions to the earthquake; companies, countries and people have been guilted into donating and if not, they have been shamed, that do the chinese call that, for a country that has such reserves of money, why have they beged the world for help? you did not see the US do that, or why was the construction so bad and now parents of dead school kids are being arrested, what is that called? Or the issues now that some government officials are using the donations to make themselves rich and anyone who asks for answers is arrested, what is the name for that? Bias is everywhere and the world is full of s**t. Enough said.

papertiger:

To "An Objective Chinese"

"Air polluted, water polluted, hearts polluted..." I agree with you, but polluted by what? Capitalism and Communism, isn't it? Both are western concepts that have taken over our motherland. So if you are "an objective Chinese", than help to remove these western cultural rubbish and to restore our culture! Humiliating your own people and your motherland under a westerner's roof title "ugly Chinese" doesn't help!

Besides, you should be more hopeful (unless you are 90 years old and only wish to live in the selected past). China's reaction to the earth quake already proves that not all hearts are "polluted", and not all "angry youths" are useless. 9/11 and Katrina should have had similar effects on the Americans, but unfortunately they have not. You see, China isn't that hopeless.

papertiger:

Roaul,

On "white men"
Who invented this concept? If you don't think this concept is any more proper, you should confess over it but protest over it."解铃还需系铃人" ("Only he who created the knot can untie the knot."). Only you can prove to the world this concept is no more proper.

On "western civilization"
We happen to be talking about the negatives of western civilization here. If we were to talk about the possitives, you will accept the validity of this concept happily. Are all those colonizations, wars for "freedom" "democracy" not to spread "western civilization"?

I should make it clear: I do not hate white people. I really don't. What I despise is the characteristic and typical indifference and hypocricy of white people's.

Disgusting Pelosi:

To "an objective Chinese",
Very interesting comment,and self-aware too.Why don't you rename yourself as "a proud Chinese with green card and polluted heart",or "a poisonless Chinese" for short?Or if you are just speaking in a Chinese tone,better call yourself "a subjective fake".

An Objective Chinese:

China is doomed. The water is polluted. The air is polluted. The hearts of people are polluted. The world's e-waste is recycled in China. The people are made slaves, working day and night, for menial pay. The more made-in-China goods, the faster China is to be completely doomed.

Chinese people is doomed. Its people are continuing to flock overseas by deserting the motherland. Worse, its people, especially women, are turning 'whitey' and pure sycophant to the West and the Western Culture. The 'angry Chinese youth' would soon find out they cannot find their women - because their women already voted with their declaration to be whitewannebe.

The Chinese on this board are ignorant of who they are. Born atheist, with no morality and no compassion, and brainwashed by the communists since borth, they came to America with poisons in the blood.

None of them will return to China without an American passport. You could parden them for their ignorance. Their second generation and third generation will be different.

the ugly-chinese you said:

你在中国的两年完全是浪费时间,你在我们的国家没有得到任何有用的东西。我本以为你在中国的几年能让你理解中国的遭遇,中国人的遭遇,但是你没能,你完全是以一个侵略者,占领者,主子的身份来写这篇文章的。请问你为何不能站到中国人的立场上去看呢?为何不能调查清楚中国的历史再发表你的看法呢?我的话到此为止,请您这位记者给我一个解答!

Raoul:

Papertiger,

Your continued use of "white man" and the concept of a monolithic "western civilization" suggests that you have absolutely no comprehension of the multiple strains that make up social and political life outside your own little bubble. You paint a picture of bright colors and vivid contrast, but possessing little connection with reality. You continually proffer the basest forms of analysis -- if someone buys this kind of garbage, there is no use trying to dissuade them otherwise.

papertiger:

怎不嚷了?

papertiger:

Roaul,

Congrads on finding a "numerous" "tiresome" "lie" in my comment. Yet, you said it yourself, your "massive museum" is new. May be the very first in hundreds of years.

Since you can't call me a racist, "Fascist" is an alternative, isn't it? Fascism is yet another western curse on this world in its modern history. Don't pee it on others by name calling. "Pure blood" is offensive indeed, since it reminds your own history, doesn't it? If I were a white man, I would be embarrssed if others brough it up. Yet you seem totally un-embarrassed in throwing this at others. Defeating Germany's Nazism can be a western victory INTERNALLY whin western civilization, yet defeating the west's Nazism is world people's victory. Win or loss, still an embarrassment to western civilization. Get that? Stop pretending your internal view is universal. No one buys it. Perhaps you are just too confussed and don't even understand what I am saying here.

Peter,
Your criterion for "propaganda in its purest form" applies to west's Tibetan report and the "mass destructive weapon" Iraqi report, don't you think?

你这两个牛头马面.


Disgusting Pelosi:

To why,
Chinese are face-loving so they are sensitive to criticism.Maybe that's what's special about Chinese.But being sensitive and rebellious to biased criticism and unfair insult is something common around the globe,I'm sure.

Disgusting Pelosi:

To "Denzel Washington",
I'm impressed with your "ugly black" hypothesis.Try yell "ugly black" in Harlem and see if nothing happens to you.

Disgusting Pelosi:

Wow!A few days away and it's quite a mess here.Anti-Chinese are picking up again!What do you get?A bunch of "truth-finding" boneheads manipulated by media distortion!What's wrong with you guys?LOL...

Anonymous:

"But these days, it seems like someone has disinterred Cultural Revolution propagandist and Gang of Four member Zhang Chunqiao and put him at the helm."

This guy (Zhang Chunqiao) died in 2005.

Pomfret Must Go:

The term of “ugly” is a very loose cannon but a cunning one. Like one commentator pointed out: you cannot really do anything about it, neither argue against it nor for it, if you are a Chinese or Chinese-inclined. It needs better definition: are some Chinese just as ugly as any ugly elements in other society? Are just angry youth “fen-qing” ugly? Are Chinese collectively flawed in their common character? Are the Chinese government ugly? Is the Chinese culture ugly? Is the unbriddled nationalism ugly? Are nationalistic angry youth ugly? Is the government propaganda ugly? All we can say is that unqualified statement is inflamming. However, by including many facets of the biased view, Pompfret is merging everything in one – China without soft power (hence a soft mask maybe) is Ugly.

Pomfret was right about one thing, as he pointed out in his book, that China is facing a crisis. However, it is not because of the communism or lack of free press, as the west tend to think. China is in crisis because it lacks the moral compass the earth-scorching, corner-turning capitalism, while traditional Chinese values cannot be installed in time. It is in crisis because it opened up too quickly. Lack of natural resources like energy and water, and arable land, with such a large population, China could crumble into total chaos if social stability is not maintained. It might be easy to run a family of 3, but imagine if you have a family of 13. The privatization of the national assets will take time and steps.
The ship of shame was raised by Pomfret. The so-called Ship of Shame is no different for what Reagan has done in support of Iraq regime during the I-I war period. China has vested interest in Africa for energy since middle-eastern countries are out of its reach.
On the other of the Pacific, US places its national interest ahead of anything. Why not rapidly advance and institutionalize western-style democracy in middle eastern countries like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE, etc? Why not promote freedom of press, a multi-party political system there? Why Iraq is such an abyss if democracy and human rights are so welcomed in the US mind? China of course will protect its national interest, like it or not. Perhaps really, the emerging China, or China daring to dissent, is "Ugly"?

Certain things look dramatically different depending on which side you are on. Nationalism never looks nice for the opposing side. This is akin to the many problems encountered with the mad soccer fans of the clubs like Liverpool, and the bizarre issue of “Freedom Fries”. However, so long as no laws are broken (especially against foreign entities), no fingers should be pointed to the young fellows in China.
Final rebuttals are with the so called soft power and China-west honeymoon. China never had any soft power. Rather it has taken softer approaches in engaging the West. It merely imitates what the West have done in the international situation. What was the most favored nation? Was US dishing out the favors to whom they like? What is wrong when China is playing the same West-style game?

There was never a honeymoon between China and the West. Because there is money to be made in China, a bottomless cheap and skilled labor reservoir to be exploited, a favorable China tax policy to reel in bigger profits, the internal demand of cheaper products, foreign investment and business have flocked into China for the past 10 years. It was not because of China "soft" image. Readers should be reminded that US was sending its reconnaissance plane to check on China resulting in a collision thus provocative incident as late as April 1 2001. The Iraq war saved then chilling China-US relationship. It is certainly not a honeymoon episode by any standard. Why did Pomfret define this period with the term of honeymoon?

Granted, Pomfret knows China well. For all his knowledge and experience, his blog is truly dissapointing. He may still want to profit from his Chinese Lessons.

Pomfret Must Go:

To Peter,

You cited what Pompfret stated: "But now across the globe China is dropping in the polls. And it's not due to lack of contact with the Chinese, people who are polled say, it's because we're getting to know them better."

I kind of wonder when China's poll was ever high in the West. You show me the past statistics (when the polled view on China was "fair, neutral or pretty") and current statistics ("ugly") with adequate control, then I may consider your position.

We have to be extremely careful using sensationalist's title in this sensitive period of time, given the polarized opinions on China still fermenting over the web. People who really care for China's future and the world's future should take a step back and reflect. Is China better than it was? Pomfret certainly knows that China is metamorphosizing into a capitalism society, for example, it has written the rights of private property into the law recently. As a journalist, Pomfret should point out that whereas there was no press conference for Chinese premier to face open questions from foreign journalists before, at least there is now.

中国人:

如果一个人到你家里没来由的指责你家里的一切并破口大骂,你会怎么样?说说我一个小小的中国人的行动吧,我会把它赶出去甚至于动手让他吃点苦头。如果这点还做不到,那你就不要在这个家里呆了,家都保不住还谈什么。丑陋点没什么不好,最重要的是能保家。PASS:美国也不见得就高尚到哪里!提醒你一下,你们白人对于你国内的黑人更可怕,丑陋尚不能说明这些!

Peter:

Papertiger's diatribes are "propaganda" in its purest form: sling lies everywhere, without pause, to attempt to control the public realm. It is classic PRC media tactics.

Unfortunately, Papertiger's ugly practices require an oppressive state to enforce conformity, so he rails away, barking his one-note tune, cries lost on the wind.

Raoul:

Papertiger,

I did not think I was treating you as a 3-year old. But now I realize I should have. For your bizarre race-based view of the world, which would have been very acceptable 100 years ago, is just offensive today. Your comments suggest that you hold some kind of fascist sense of "pure blood" as a critical political factor. Ewww...

Your call for "sincerity" is a well-worn one in mainland political culture. No matter what the Dalai Lama says, he is labelled insincere. No matter what Japan says, it is labelled insincere. And on and on. It is a nice technique for trying to control discourse in the public realm, and it is no mystery where you got the technique from.

Moreover, your outrage at "dishonesty" in media is particularly funny, in that China's media is tightly controlled by the government. Do you think your media's coverage is even up the the 70% standard you attribute to Western media?

Other fictions in your response are numerous and tiresome. For instance, you should visit the massive new Native American museum in Washington, DC.

Enjoy your fascist revolution.

papertiger:

Roaul,

100th time to hear these "arguements".

Obama is black, but he is western. Look at that black woman standing by Bush, she is more like white. The white men wouldn't mind making a red indian president if he or even she is willing to be white. Even better in fact, since then you can hide behind them and say what you just said to me. As well, Obama is only 1/2 black, it is already strange that this half of him is more useful. (I have greatest respects and sympathy for Africans anywhere, and I think Dr. King is the only true "American" sage or at least similarly so. So don't even try to lable me as this and that. White men are very good at doing that.) Besides, in the reverse case, some Germans claim that Hitler isn't German too. But what does that mean?

Regarding those contestations, I appreciate some of the aspects in the western intellectual society (remember, I am attacking west's hypocricy, not the whole western culture), but still:

1. You do it selectively, for example, there are many museums in US about the Jews or US sodliers' heroism in WW2, but very few (perhaps none) for the Native Americans.

2. Perhaps 70% of time, you are honest, what about the orther 30%? CNN, BBC dishonesty in the Tibetan reports have revealed this charming danger. If there is a peeing section in a swimming pool, is the swimming pool still a clear swimming pool.

3. You hide behind this constestations and books (just like you hide behind Obama), and use it as a "I am now a good man" patch for further benefits. You may apologize for your sins, but you don't confess. Hope I don't need to explain the difference between these two terms to you. If you white men truly confess, you simply wouldn't be acting this stupid way you are.

The basic fact is that, sincerity in the white men is missing.

Further "arguements" OK, but please give me some new and sincere ones. Don't assume others are three year-olds.

R.:

p.s. papertiger, you are going to have to drop that "white man" thing once Obama is our next president.

Raoul:

Papertiger,

Do you have any idea of the public contestation, the countless books and articles published freely, debated openly, the incessant intellectual and public self-flagellation undertaken by these "un-confessing descendants of slave owners, global colonists, Nazis, on-going invaders, war profiteers and national terrorists"?

This open, unrestricted public contestation seems beyond the imagination of many, like yourself, who post here. Scholars, journalists, members of society are free to examine historical sins, and -- given the diversity within most Western societies -- this occurs on virtually any subject under the sun. It is the greatest strength of these societies, despite their enduring flaws.

Different cultures can have very different standards of beauty. So I don't expect that you will find this model attractive. I only object to the the incessant calls from the mainland side to silence writers like Pomfret, for critics to "shut up". To me, this attempt to control and squash critiques one doesn't like epitomizes ugliness.

papertiger:


西方人讲道德, 东施效颦.

又要当婊子,又要立牌坊. 我从心里面瞧不起你们这些西方人.

Translation:
White men preaching morality, it is like Sharon Stone pretending Helen of Troy.

You westerners want a gold medal for morality while you have been bandits and are still demanding all the benefits of being bandits, how can I respect you and take you seriously.

Beautiful Chinese:

Those “China experts” never discard their colorful blinkers, or they themselves are colorful telescopes towards China from western, isn’t it? No doubt they are good at collecting something negative about China. And biased propaganda and agitations are also well-done by them, who urge to conclude that China is dropping in the polls.
Some truth will be filtered out forever by our “China experts”.
http://blog.nnsky.com/blog_view_402072.html
木秀于林,风必摧之。In fact, those “experts” are jealous of us, beautiful and powerful Chinese. They want to mask the beauty they are seeing, but forget one saying: 青山遮不住,毕竟东流去。

papertiger:

恶人先告状,
贼也!

papertiger:

"八国联军还是那个八国联军"

So well said. Can't help but quote it again. And I will add one more line, and since all the western China experts here understand China so well, they must understand this line too:

恶人先告状!

paperitger:

Roaul,

Would you be so kind as to point out the fallacies in my comments? I am all ears.

Besides, I would not call it "amusing" when being called "un-confessing descendants of slave owners, global colonists, Nazis, on-going invaders, war profiteers and national terrorists", unless, it is not true!

Got to run now, will be back later, or a lot later.

Raoul:

Papertiger,

Excuse me if I don't find your argument convincing, or intelligible, for that matter. But you are certainly free to voice your views.

papertiger:

Roaul,

Stop playing word games, which is another form of hypocricy. The west is not all white now, but which is partly if not largely or even mostly a consequence of the white men's global colonlization, slavery trade etc.

Regarding hypocricy, certainly, no nations are free from it, but China is not hypocritical TYPICALLY, but the west TYPICALLY is internationally. Here lies the difference.

Raoul:

wow, you are amusing.

papertiger:

It isn't that we are sensitive to criticism, but that we do not accept insincere criticism from the un-confussing descendants of slave owners, Nazis, colonists and from the on-going invaders, war profiteers and national terrorists.

Half-hearted, two-faced, that is how we call them.

Raoul:

Paper tiger,

Your equating of "Westerners" with "white men" suggests you don't have a very firm understanding of the West today.

The notion of hypocrisy is an interesting one, and no doubt applies to the US, as well as most other states. States routinely fail to live up to their ideals, the principles they espouse and hold as their core beliefs. I can't see that China is any different, except in that it seems to hold different ideals from the West. If you would like to think that China is immune from hypocrisy, that's charming, I guess, but probably not very accurate.

papertiger:

Roaul,

Just saw your comment at me. A little late to reply, however:

"Westerners are hypocrites." I wish I didn't need to say this, but your behavior especially international behavior have deeply impressed me this way. Of course, not all white men are hypocrites regarding these events, but you TYPICALLY are, though not UNIVERSALLY. Here I draw the line.

papertiger:

"八国联军还是那个八国联军"

Well said! Only that they got a new name today: NATO.

The white men are hypocritical and shameless. The whole USA is the true Tibet, taken from the real Americans by killing them almost all and their culture. yet the white seem totally un-embarrassed here. I never figure out what is wrong with the white men. It is like they never change. Hopeless, perhaps.

Peter:

Pomfret Must Go,

Instead of choosing a name, you sign with a demand that John Pomfret be silenced. Certainly, you are free to disagree with his column, and I would understand why you might do so. But the blind outrage and lack of self-reflection in your post suggests that Pomfret is right in some way. He states: "But now across the globe China is dropping in the polls. And it's not due to lack of contact with the Chinese, people who are polled say, it's because we're getting to know them better."

Your demand that any criticism you don't like be silenced (vs. debated, refuted, or lord forbid reflected on) gives Pomfret's article more support than he could, by himself, hope to muster. Your response deserves the name ugly.

Beloved:

Thanks, Anonymous. Love you, too.

Anonymous:

既然你看得懂,写得来中文,那么我其它不想多说,只有一句话:八国联军还是那个八国联军,但中国绝对不是以前的中国!记住!

Why:

What I do not understand was why Chinese people are so sensitive to criticism? Why so many of them take it so personally? For this, I really admire their actions. As much as I admire how they have been raised and educated. But is this really good for the world in the long run? And why so many Chinese don’t think democracy is a good, if not the best, political system?

常小青:

作为一个爱做梦的中国女孩,我是来感谢您的,谢谢您让察觉了自己的幼稚,以前我居然相信即使是不同环境下成长、具有不同价值观的人们也可以在人类共有的爱的情感下彼此理解、包容
too young, too simple

Thank you very much again, God bless you

Anonymous:

刚才那句是我发的,和你们西方自由社会学的——“言论自由”:)

Anonymous:

去你妈的

Anonymous:

Hey, my suggestion:
go back to re-read Buo Yang's book "The ugly Chinese" again. Don't tell me u can not tell or feel the hidden meaning between the lines. Buo Yang's was criticizing something with a chinese heart! If u don't know this at all or even never read the book, just guess the contents by imagination, then your artical is totally groundless...

我的建议是:
回去再好好读读柏杨那本《丑陋的中国人》吧,不要告诉我你连里面的隐藏情感都看不出来。柏杨先生在写这本书指出一些中国问题的时候是带着一颗中国心写的!如果你连这个都不知道或者根本没好好读只根据书名来猜,你这篇文章就完全是站不住脚的。。。

Pomfret must go:

Pomfret's article lacks the depth and accuracy in analysis. It is hastily made from shallow patches of unsubstantiated information. For example, the scuffle in Korea, the so-called "ship of shame", and the European poll and American poll on identifying China at the short list of enemy state. Worst yet, it grossly generalized the Chinese people based on a few bad apples.

Pomfret's provocative blog piece has helped no one but fanned the hatred and fear amongst people on both sides of the Pacific. As a vast country with a large agriculture population, China has a long way to play the catch-up game, including the so-called Public Relations game that the western country is so adept. If economic condition is correlated with the human rights situation, today's China in terms of how its people are treated is perhaps way better than the 1960s' US where racial segregation was still legally praticed. Yet no European countries stopped trading with the US. Also remember while China was selling ordinary arms to a sovereign government according to a contract signed months ago, US was perhaps no different if not worse in aiding Sadam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war, as Reagan proclaimed US "would do whatever was necessary to prevent Iraq from losing the war with Iran." What about Iraq's chemical warfare? What about Saddam's dictatorship?

Pomfret profited from his book sale on his "China Lessons" book and married a Chinese national who is still profiteering from a travel business in Beijing. It is nauseating to see Pomfret summarily lambasting Chinese as "Ugly" and menacing, while herding "innocent" American people over to his own fortune. If Chinese indeed is so ugly, why bother?

It is the West who has polluted the world for the past 150 years - now blaming China for those emissions; It was the West who sent the gunboat to China to demand "trade" and force the sale of opium made from other colonies - now blaming China for their domestic economic problems in the name of trade imbalance.

There is deep resentment in Chinese for all the hypocrisy the West is raising - China is not against other people in the world. For all the Chinese' failings and ugliness, it is better for Chinese to correct themselves. Bo Yang could criticize, Lu Xun could criticize. Kevin Rudd might be a true "friend who can dissent" and he could criticize too. Pompfret cannot, not even he was considered a fellow student in Nanjing University (like K Rudd once was), not even he is the son-in-law of the Chinese people.

China is a complexed story and it needs time to figure out its path. Just as Pomfret can lecture his wife how to run the travel business in China, China should be left to its own people to decide its path forward.

A word for Pomfret: you have sat so long here for any good you have been doing; Depart, I say and let us have done with you. In the name of Mei and your children, GO.

Anonymous:

如果你还不真正了解中国就不要在这胡说八道
你没有资格评论我们
因为你比任何人都丑陋

Anonymous:

可以问问你妻子,中国人的民族主义情绪来自哪里?主要来自于历史课本上的事实,中国从1840年以来就饱受英国、法国、德国、日本、美国、奥匈帝国、意大利、俄国、葡萄牙最明目张胆的侵略和抢夺,完全是不文明的、没有理由的,非常耻辱和痛苦,比如日本和俄国为争夺中国的东北的控制权在中国境内作战而,中国必须中立;英国为了他们的利益和削弱中国,与中国开战,打败中国后,他们用军队保护他们的商人在中国卖鸦片;日本人更不用说了,他们用中国劳工无偿地开采占领地的煤、铁矿等资源运到日本,并在东北大量种植鸦片;新兴的美国人也一样,他们也与中国打过中国并且胜利了,得到了不少钱。每次打仗都是西方人先打中国的,理由都很小或不正当,比如中国人没收了英国商人的鸦片,比如法国神父包庇其信徒闹事遭审判,每次打仗都是中国战败,每次中国都要赔款,都要割让一块土地,各国都在比赛,看谁在中国拿的钱最多,占的地方最大,到了十九世纪末,日本在马关条约要走了中国两亿两的白银,每个中国人,都得背上重重的债,这些钱相当于日本三年的财政收入。各个强国都在中国有租界,这是一种比殖民地更无耻的一种侵略,那里中国的法律是不起作用的,那里有外国人有自己的政府、军队、警察,东北、山东、上海、武汉……中国所有富足的地方都有西方列强的租界,更不用说香港、澳门、乌苏里江以北一百五十万平方公里的地方这些就完全是被强占的……这是普通中国人学的历史,而且这都是事实,去翻翻你们的历史书的世界史部分,也应该都是这样写的,只是你们西方人不关心这些,所以不知道。
在历史上,中国人一点也不丑陋,只是太弱太笨太傻太落后。
所以,今天的中国人天生就与西方强国有着强烈的对抗情绪,希望你能原谅。请注意,中国人的内心不是对抗世界,是对抗西方强国。
现在的中国人都知道那些西方强国国家行为的伪善,都知道他们是以他们自己的利益为转移的,都知道所谓的朝鲜战争、越南战争、格林纳达战斗、巴拿马战斗,海湾战争、伊拉克战争的核心都不是所谓的正义。
中国人的民族主义情绪,那其实是一种不安全感造成的,“落后就要挨打”是每个中国人都知道的一句话。知道了这种原因,中国人“丑陋”就是有原因的。所以,只要西方人表现出稍稍的不友善,就会引起中国人的反感,认为那是一种敌视的表现,就会引发中国人希望自己无比强大的意愿。
另一种让作者觉得中国人丑陋的是,作为一个最大的国家,它在发展,它的人民希望过上像西方人一样的好日子,地球资源有限,总会引起西方人的不安,对于这点,是没办法的事,有科学的方法来解决资源有限的问题,但也需要有竞争,看谁更智慧更勤劳。

kampesq:

This article comes out only for the purpose of humiliating Chinese, suggesting how ugly and xenophobic the author is. Pomfret lied, lied and lied again, no idea why such garbage got listed on wp to discredit itself...

Anonymous:

I am surpised to see so many Chinese living in the west for many years like me turned to so called nationalist this time.Chinese by nature are mild and like to mind their own business.What made them so angry this time?West media is keeping lying and making fake news about China,for example,they use the picture of Napal police beating pro-tibet protester to say that is Chinese police.There are many evidences prove that the west media is lying to the world.
Why you did not mention that during Japan torch relay Chinese students were attacked by protesters and had serious injuries?Also why you did not mention that during South Korea torch relay the pro-tibet protesters attacked the Chinese students first?The students were forced to defend themselves.With arrogance and prejudice,you will never understand Chinese culture and you will never tell the truth about Chinese.
Stop brainwashing western people.
China may not as good as you thought but it is not as bad as you descibed either.There are a lot of sincere,generous,friendly people in China.

Anonymous:

I am surpised to see so many Chinese living in the west for many years like me turned to so called nationalist this time.Chinese by nature are mild and like to mind their own business.What made them so angry this time?west media is keeping lying and make fake news about China,for example,they use the picture of Napal police beating pro-tibet protester to say that is Chinese police.There are many evidences prove that the west media is lying the world.
Why you did not mention that during Japan torch relay Chinese students were attacked by protesters and had serious injury?Also why you did not mention that during South Korea torch relay the pro-tibet protesters attacked the Chinese students first?The students were forced to defend themselves.With arrogance and prejudice,you will never understand Chinese culture and you will never tell the truth about Chinese.

Disgusting Pelosi:

To Raoul
Thanks for pointing that out.Thank God I didn't say "ALL",nor did I mean to.So if you feel hurt or insulted,I'm really sorry for that.

Raoul:

Papertiger and Disgusting Pelosi,

Anyone who makes statements like "all Westerners" are like X, or "all Chinese" are like X only proves that he is, as an individual, a complete dolt.

Disgusting Pelosi:

Hey papertiger.You are right!Thanks for reminding me.

Papertiger:

Pelosi, I think you take westerners too seriously. They are just hypocrites as already edvident here. "Observation" was just angery at himself. Save your breath.

Disgusting Pelosi:

Hey Oberservation,
What a pompous and narrow-minded comment you've got there!But you are right about one thing,though.China will never rule,because she never wants to.As for revolt,I'm afraid that's not possible,at least in your entire pathetic life or your children's or your grandchildren's or your great-grandchildrens or... That's why during the recent earthquake,PLA rescuers went into the shaken area without carrying guns--a sharp and confusing contrast to your government's performance during Katrina.Mr.Cafferty's "nationalists,mobs,goons and thugs" is a perfect self-portrait,certainly suitable to you too here.So next time before you play China-issue expert,figure out this very simple Chinese expression:"Cao Ni Ma,Sha Bi!"

american western Observation:

The Ugly Chinese is so fitting. China will never rule, they tried to step up to bat and lost.
Their ugliness in due to PRIDE which is why they will fail. No one on this earth will let the Ugly Chinese rule over them, so relax, play the games, and let the Olympics proceed. You are defeated before you even get to play in the game of World Politics. Your backwardness and stupid frame of mine of having to be told what to do in every strata of society will be your downfall. Besides for a country that was gaining economically faster than any other country in modern history, just who is getting all that money? Your still 80% PEASANT. How fair is that? How long do you think the poor of China will go on being the dirt of China? They will revolt and your Party Officials know it. Everyone knows the US in on it's way down, economically, but they are still a super power and China will never be. Russia is going to outdo you.
Stupid Ugly Chinese.

Anonymous:

I always find it funy that westerners admire Lu Xun (or Bo Yang, Mr. Pomfret's "great Chinese philosopher"). As a Chinese myself, I either admire western culture or I don't, I would never admire a western writer who made his career by abusing western culture.

Book Idiot:

I found Pan Wen's blog deeply flawed: as a journalist himself, he did not do any fact finding about the torch-grabbing incidents in Paris/London, as well as the Korean scuffle. Much of what Mr. Pan cited have taken out of context. I am saddened why a journalist with good potential like Lao Pan could turn the back to the country who gave him what he is valued - the understanding of Chinese culture and the fluency of the language.

Unlike Japan (an economical powerhouse but henpecked under US), China is a fully potent country, vast land and huge population. Aligned properly and accepting the elemens of western style assertiveness, China could be tremendously powerful. The West fears China's rise because it may present them challenges and competition in every field. Just look at the atheletic competition. For a long long time, the gymnastics and diving events were dominated by a few countries US included until China joined the games.

Lu Xun heavily criticized Chinese people, as Pan must have read, and he is still sorely loved in China. It is not about criticism, it is in its intention. I found Pomfret's blog is merely aimed at arousing some sensation; not really helping with the much-needed frank, open dialogue between cultures and peoples. It did more harm than good. Perhaps he wanted to exonerate himself for his Chinese connections, to project a neutral image in the web.

My advice to Mr. Pan: quit this non-productive job and find other things to do. You can make a decent living without writing. Perhaps you can help Mei with the real business - to build the cultural bridges among the US and China. WildChina should expand its service to ordinary people not just business and intellectual elites.

Anonymous:

Pelosi,

I actually don't think Mr. Pomfret is anti-Chinese. Saying that he is anti-Chinese is like saying that Bush is anti-Iraqi. Bush doesn't care about the poor Iraqis at all, he thinks of the benefits of USA only. Iraq just happens to be on him way... Same with "intellectuals" like Mr. Pomfret in the Chinese case...

Disgusting Pelosi:

...should any Chinese woman be blind enough to marry this ignorant anti-Chinese maniac.

Anonymous:

Mr. Pomfret may end up a wife beater since in the years to come with China's steady reclaim of her traditional importance in the world, the only way to abuse China for a westerner like him is to beat his Chinese wife. :)

Disgusting Pelosi:

And many seemingly smart politicians good at throwing false charges upon their rivals are actually empty-headed bonebrains.

I can dream can't I?:

Anonymous,

Many of fascism's greatest supporters were highly intelligent, creative individuals. You sound very much like them.

Disgusting Pelosi:

I'm quite surprised to seee how obsessed that Jed Clampett is with the posts here and how firm he is to defend this racist article by arguing with a seemingly thorough understanding of China.With a closer look you may find his words are all groundless accusations,so basically they are his imagination,if not lies.Oh,boy,you are just as an inventive genius as John Pomfret,Jed.How much they pay you for doing this?
By the way,"Sinna" is a very racist term.You'd better watch your mouth,boy.

Anonymous:

To "dream"

The nightmare of May 4th has been over, the older generations of 80s and 70s births are not aware of this because when you went to elementary, middle and high school, traditional culture was musch less accessible (the 80s births were a little better). After experiencing the west, China's superiority is very clear to me. In fact, I think comprencing all history (that is, putting the rise of the west in the largest historic setting), I am of the opinion that our China is the true great. Egypt and India have our duration but the strength. Roman, Ottoman, new west have our strength but our duration. This immortality is the gift of Daoism, the physical might is a consequence of Confucianism. I feel very sad for the generations born between 1840 and 1980 for they never truly understand China's history. I encourage you to look at China's full past but just stopping with the Opium wars. Our generation, in 30 to 40 years, will restore China's decisive superiority in all cultural and civilizational dimensions (including fundamental physics and mathematics though we are still doing poorly when compared even to India (Ramanujan is one of my heros)), but China's natural talent will change this. (For example, I went a middle school in Guang dong Countryside two years ago, all my classmates were those who failed the exames for better middle schools, but as it seemed to me later, they were already as intelligent as western college students. It is China's bad education system taking away creativity, but that can be changed.). I hope you can study China's culture and history again with a fresh mind.

Also with sites like this one, western world is slipping into vulgarity (for example Clampett is a typical pseudo-spiritualist but seem totlly un-aware of it himself) which is usually the sign of the decline of vitality of a people. As well, you should see this in the differnces between Chinese and western artists.

Many westerners feel that their world is a spiritually sick world, but they fancy that doing a wild surgery at China will heal themselves. A sign of deeper irresponsibility and foolishness.

This is my last comment. No more interested posting more under title "Ugly Chinese".

Hope you understand what I am saying and take it seriously (it took me $8 to type it out on cafe's computer).

I can dream can't I?:

The notion that there is, or ever was, a particular "THE China", as anonymous suggests, is...well, charming, I guess, in that I thought most people on this planet were aware of the myths we tell ourselves about our nation-states. I only hope anonymous has an inkling of the monstrosities that sometimes grow out of this yearning for the utopian moment.

Anonymous:

To Clampett,

My appology. I don't have a computer, so I must pay to use those in cafes and bars when those in the library are not available, but I don't have much free money, so I must hurry before the time limit. I didn't have time for the proof reading for my last comment.

I thought I was respectful enough to write in your language. I guess I thought wrong then.


To who wrote "To Marsilius"

Sorry too. I wanted to answer in Chinese but no Chinese softwares were availble. Your Chinese was better than my English. My appology for the unintelligibility of my last comment. However, what I intended was the following:

Communists rulers in Beijing today are spiritually westerners for Communism is a western tradition. Most people over-look this fact including Chinese themselves. In this sense, they are similar to the Mongol and Manchu rulers, and who will be sinicfied. If I understood your term "yi wen hua zhi" (civilizing by culture)properly, then the Beijing rulers should be sinicfied first. One must remember, the Communist China is 60 years old, the Chinese China is 5000 years.

However, at this momment, westerners should feel secure since the mere fact that China today is Communist symbolizes the victory of western civilization already (like India as "the largest democracy"). China's comming epic is not the surface compettition between Democracy/Capitalism and Communism, but the return of the true China.

Jed Clampett:

wow, does the PLA not have anyone left in it's disinformaion offices that read and write english in at least an intelligible manner? I mean, if you are going to comment on something, you should at least know something about it, no?

Did mother nature get you to withdraw your troops from the mountain kindom yet, or are you tempting fate and an even larger calamity?

Anonymous:

To Clampett,

I am the fellow who wrote the story that you didn't like. I think you should be more inventive but repeating yourself. Many projections you have on me as well.

To the fellow who wrote "to Masilius"
Given China's limittation I think she is already doing when you said in a world that you don't even need to learn other language even when abroad. Compared to western countries, China is quite OK with "small" countries.

Regarding "yi wen hua zhi", you must understand that, Communism took over China which is a western ideology. Communist China needs to be "hua zhi" first like the mogols and Manchus had been so. Today's China is like the Chinese that you used that is a product of her not-so-good modern history, she is only China-like but THE China. So you must be patient.

To Marsilius

Sorry to cut in. An open discussion. Hope it is OK.

Jed Clampett:

Was that directed to me, nameless pigeon?

Where was my what? 'gavornment'? perhaps you are too far inside your nest to understand and put two and two together... I don't belong to any of these governments nor do I lay claim to any of them. They have proven themselves to be corrupt and selfish, they will get their just desserts. Katrina was the test for the Bushney team. They failed miserably, with support from their republican allies, they committed genocide on the city of New Orleans by neglect and outright malfeasance. If they are not made to answer for their transgressions in the good way, the people will be made to suffer as well, since they had to power to stop it and chose to instead become spectators.

Certainly, you are not helping. You are merely trying to evade responsability by exposing the transgressions of others. Where you not taught differently as a child? Where you not born with the instinct to do right? At what point was it changed for 'me is the only one that matters'?
You are not helping do anything other than feed your own enourmous ego. Unfortunately, it feeds on your soul.
Not sure what business it is of yours what African-Americans are enduring. If I had an inkling that you actually had their welfare in mind rather than feeding your ego some more, i would venture to honor such stupidity with a response... suffice it to say. The africans living in america have a better situation than their brethern seem to be having to endure in africa... but if you would like a sign that their liberation aproaches as well, then we could ask for a sign... what do you think it should be? something that cannot be mistaken for coincidence, I'm sure. How about something that hits the exploiters as well as makes a statement.

LET'S SEE WHAT THE LORD OF RENEWAL CAN PRESENT YOU AS A SIGN?

What do you think would be appropiate?

—————:

to Marsilius:

美国老百姓不用学外语,可以靠英文找工作,国外的大学也没国内的好或方便。旅游或住在国外,会不会外语跟只会英文差不多,世界上有足够的人会英文,对我们很方便。

中国内的爱国主义教育系统和中央电视台缺少自我批评的后果不助于和谐的外交关系。中国越跟世界接触到,中外莫些问题会越多。这对美国也好,外国人更讨厌中国的政策,讨厌美国政策的程度该会减少。

说美国的政策如何,起码会有些美国人愿意跟你讨论,不会像中国人那样,一说中国,国家主义的反应就来了。中国人喜欢找借口避免真正地对话,说老外不懂中国或者会打各种各样的比喻来比较两个完全不同的事。可能中国人只会跟中国人认真地谈中国。

大国不允许小国或国外老百姓的批评,就不是个大国。如果中国想别国认同中国是强大的,它要能够接受小国或非中国人的批评。否则中国无法《以文化之》,西方人也会多点批评中国。《聪明》里有耳朵,中国人不听别人的意见不利于中国全面的发展。听和同意是两码事,但听别人也就是有对话的开始。

Anonymous:

If Beijing were slow, it were slow regardless if the quake victims were Hans or Tibetans. US gavornment was different with Katrina. China's P.M. went there immediately. Where was yours then...

Certainly, I am helping. Thanks for reminding. Hope you helped your fellow African-Americans too.

Jed Clampett:

You senseless fool, shouldn't you be out there trying to help your people rather than spreading a dragon's breath?

The Dalai doesn't need to tell me anything, his teachers are my teachers. I listen directly to the trinity and Gaia uses me as her mouthpiece.

How the CCP responds to this disaster will make all the difference. Either take care of the people as one should, not following the example of the thugs in Myanmar and Sinna will prosper. Follow the ideology of destruction, the extremism of oppression, and Lord Shiva will introduce a change that will force all to work together to survive. This will not be easy if it is forced to compell the leaders to the correct action rather than you listening to constructive guidance. As always, we are given a choice, how you choose will determine the response of nature.

Anonymous:

Hey, American Gigolo,

What did Dalai Lama tell you about Katrina? Nothing too?

Jed Clampett:

That was nothing... a few tornadoes, a pittance.

Wait till you see what's about to happen off the west coast.

Anonymous:

Is Clampett Richard Gere? The dumpness is so similar, can't help to guess.

Anonymous:

Jed Clampett ;

You forgot Katrina already?

Jed Clampett:

Well, did you hear her speak?

What do you think a shaking like that will do in the area of the three gorges?

Treat the people of Tibet right, give them their autonomy, ability to follow their religion and prosperity in their own way, and they will pay your protection racket like the gangster you are, but at least allow them to lve in peace and dignity... or suffer earth's wrath.

Handsome boy:

Upon visitting wedsites of similar subjects I suddently realized why in USA the racist term for white people is "white trash"(since it sounds so un-specific). It isn't about skin color and race, but about the mind: "Ugly Chinese", goons, thugs, "axis of evil", "rogue states" ... and many more for many others. Besides the white men who else would like to invent these trash concepts and stuff them in their own mind with passion? and try to sell them to others?

No offense. Just an observation.

GOGGIE TONY:

Perhaps I'm in a better position to make a point for my 15 years of stay in china. As a singapore immigrant, i may conclude from my experience with many chinese and my information from a variety of resources that:
1.recent event: you lack suffiecient evidence to form your opinion on Tibet issue. Tibet has been part of China since Tang Dynasty (so-called in chinese history, about 600 AD)THe opinion that Tibet is part of China to chinese people is deep-rooted as Paris is part of france.
2.As far as i'm informed, CCP never shall voilate individual right. But there are times when local governments fail to implement CCP stipulation, a consequece of China's centralized power distribution and extremely underdevelopment of basic-level democracy.
3.for a developing country vast in land and population, varied in ethical groups, the current political structure is the only solution for its sustained development and stablity. You need to be much more informed of the country's history and culture.
4.Chinese people are kind and less aggressive than we are, if you know them better. And their kids are terribly clever, especially in maths&natural sciences, if you actually do some teaching as I do.
5.I support Beijing Olympics. It has nothing to do with political opinion.

(Jed Clampett):

Wow, I would have never figured that out without the paper demon letting me know.
Since I didn't bother to read more than the first couple of lines, I merely know the gist of your writing, but it was enough to show the level of poisoning your mind has incurred.

It's quite funny that you would think me christian... an assumption made from a lack of understanding and a quickness to jump to conclusions. Normal for the beast, it has a 'brain' but no spirit, so it can't access wisdom.

Enjoy you misery demon. It's well deserved, traitor to your species.

Moral Paper Tiger:

To Clampett

Hear youself out. You are the Christian in my story. See that now? Stupid!


To Castro

I agree, the Oplympics is overrated, yet who is obssessing over it by attacking it now? Boring!

so be it:

To Jed Clampett:

Thanks for the discussion, i rest my case.

Jed Clampett:

1.) funny, ccp can 'reeducate' the population, but can't seem to be able to reeducate it's members out of corruption. While I think, depending on the harm caused by the crime, murdering the culprit is unjustified... unless his actions resulted in many deaths and he's callous and unrepentant, perhaps there are some who deserve this resolution, perhaps not. For a person to pay for his crimes, he must be allowed to atone. Killing him only perpetuates the negative energy by creating negative kharma within the individual. That spirit learned nothing and will keep it's bad habits into the next reiteration, creating more hardship for others in the next life. Besides, it's a false solution. By putting him to death, you ensure that the methods of his crime will be hidden from others and no one will be able to benefit from the information lost with his death. If truly he's been killed at all, I've known of folks who'd been 'put to death' and later showed up alive in the caribean enjoying their wealth. The answer is true reformation of the individual, not additional murder.
2)I do not wonder at all. it was rhetorical, It's not the people of Sinna that are full of vitriol for the west. It's the CCP that feels it must set the tone, so it uses the media to affect those that are easily manipulated. They are tipically those ruled by negative energies and that is displayed in their writings.
Friend, enemy, bystander, they are merely lables of convenience. if you want someone to be your enemy, just lable him that and eventually he will become that. In reality, those in control create these false competitions to keep the humans busy while they abscond with the natural resources and work on disconnecting people from their true source.
3) information? it's easily seen by the prepared statements and language used by the tools of the PLA to flood these boards with messages. Those of us who are still connected can read between the lines and recognize the intent behind it. Like anyone would telegraph their punches that obviously. Sometimes a bluff can be a loosing hand that puts you in the street without any clothes on.
4)I for one am glad that you can extrapolate the sentiments of a billion people from the limited contact you've had with a few people who probably are either well off and happy at what is being done because they prosper, all others be damned, or afraid to speak honestly in a nation where speaking truth to power is met with torture, hardship for the family and death.
5) There is no difference between the CCP and any other party in control in the world... perhaps a few exceptions in the scandinavian countries. They are clubs of wealthy men who lust for more power and are willing to sign a deal with the devil to achieve it. If you think that kind of person would be fair in any of it's endeavors then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. While you try to make the contention one between the peoples of two nations, as is necessary to get the populace to fight for you, the truth is the people have no quarrels with each other. In fact, if allowed to mingle, they find many commonalities and similar ideologies. The contention is fabricated by those who work behind the scenes in the contentious countries and expect to make a healthy profit for themselves on the ensuing chaos and scarecity. There's more to it, but I doubt you would understand or even try to accept.

Marcus:

This is one of the most narrow-minded articles I have read from a respectable media source. You should offer a side of "Freedom Fries" with this article. Wow!

so be it:

To Jed Clampett:

I am encouraged by your post in respond to mine.

I gather you are a very rational person with a good heart and first hand knowledge of China. Very impressive.

Now I would like to make a few points if I may, for discussion sake.

1) power has been abused by the CCP government
officials and it's quite rampant, very
disturbing indeed. I have stated in my last
post: corruption. But the CCP has tried to
solve it with iron fist, the convicted
officials received much harsher treatment then
any other country ( some were sentence to death
). Will that be enough? time will tell. But
corruption is every where and in every country,
not only in China. Democracy and election is
not the answer. What can we do to stop that
is a universal question.
2) you " wonder why the extreme vitriol toward
west in China",that is not true. When I left
China 25 years ago, USA was #1 friend and
Soviet Union was #1 enemy. Time changed,
political alignement changed. But even today,
the way chinese people describe the
relationship between China and USA is : "
neither a friend nor a enemy; is a friend yet a
enemy". complicated staff( I think scholars
from US has a new word for it: FRIENEMY ).
3) you stated that PLA " willing to send this
planet into a conflagration of propotions
previously unseen on earth". I don't know where
you get that information. I do recall there was
a PLA general made a personal statement in Hong
Kong, when respond to media question, that if
war broke out between China and USA in regard
to Taiwan and if USA attack China, then China
will not dismiss the option of nuclear war on
USA. It only meant, my opinion, that China is
not yet capable to fight a conventional war
against USA because they are behind in
military warfare capability. In a poker game,
bluff is allowed, don't you think? in reality,
USA has many times nuclear war head then China
has and had threaten to use them. am I right
or wrong?
4) majority of chinese people do believe in CCP,
maybe you think I am naive.
I still have relatives live in China and I have
been to many places and met with all kind of
people and that's the impression i got.
5) the basic difference between China and western
countries in regard to international policy is
very simple: to be or not to be. to mixed
politic with business or not to mixed.
well, if you want to mix politic with business,
then you have to lead by example or at least
use one standard to treat every one. what's
fair must be fair. isn't it?


CASTRO:


Hi Moral Paper Tiger.

I read your posting, it was very amusing. lol. It must lose a lot in the translation. Not really that smart using "christian" vs "mobster", probably better to use "politician" vs "labourer", or something like that or "rich man" vs "poor man". Would create more sympathy. It just reinforced that neither side understands the other, period. As from everything I gather, it is mainly the pro-China side getting heated at the amount of attention and the type of attention, not the pro-West side. In your story it is the other way around. You actually think that any country or that 99% of western people would even lose 1 min sleep if there were no Olympic's. The vast majority think the Olympic's is and has been a big joke for decades. It would not get 25% percent of the attention if it was being held in say Brazil, but China just adds that extra contraversy, and we have seen nothing yet. I know that someone else on the blogg mentioned that the word "sacred flame" is not a religious point, but something that is changed in translation. For it is not sacred in the West and odds are, this will be the last Olympic run ever as Canada has decided against it. It started with the Germans in 1936 and will end with the Chinese in 2008. Interesting run. The olympic's is only about the host, the IOC, the sponsers and some athletes. I have not watched sinse Barcelona and very few poeple watch that I know and only one specific sport they have interest in. Well time will tell, plus I gather your type of post is more about reenforcing one side, rather to educate the other.

Jed Clampett:

Of course, how could I have missed... inadvertently you've touched on the crux of the problem.
You do quite well to equate the CCP with gangsters, that is exactly the problem.

A bunch of gangsters raised on oppressing and abusing it's people, making exhorbitant wealth off of their misery while at the same time accusing others of doing the same.

Perhaps you should ask yourself, what is it that is afflicting humanity that makes them think violence is the way to resolve misrunderstandings. Murder the way to save face. Enslavement a valid way of gaining power.

Power gained through evil means is merely an illusion and usually destroys they that employ it. True power comes from somewhere else.

Where's your soul at? do you even understand what it is, or do you just believe what others tell you rather than the truth that touches you from within?

Jed Clampett:

You can't possibly be stupid enough to think that anyone would read the claptrap little storie you post in hopes of igniting discord and divisiveness. Or perhaps you are just flooding the boards to make that which bothers you harder to see.
Either way. Your era is over beast. Time to let the other side of the coin show it's face.

Moral Paper Tiger:

Since my comment under a different topic applies here even better, I am going to put it up here again. I hope the host doesn't mind.


A Gangster-turned-Christian apparently is trying to convert another Gangster, here is their dialogue:

Christian: You gangster are doing all bad things no good! You got to convert in order to save your soul.

Gangster: What you are saying about me isn’t entirely true. More truth will come out.

Christian: The whole world believes what I say.

Gangster: That’s because you control the world. However, even if what you are saying about me were true, you still can't preach to me like this.

Christian: Why not?

Gangster: You were worse regarding what you did to that red Indian girl and that black African boy. You were a white colonist and a slave owner.

Christian: That doesn’t count. It was only in the past.

Gangster: But the descendants of that red Indian girl are still going out to protest on your birthday -- every July 4th.

Christain: Precisely! They are free to protest! Freedom! Democracy! Do you have those?! Do you! Do you!

Gangster: You seem very forgetful, and shamelessly self-forgiving and self-congraduating. Well, however, you are still doing the same, see what you are doing to that Iraqi girl. You are an invader and a war profiteer.

Christian: That is different. It isn’t about me, it is about you, you!

Gangster: That seems very indifferent of you.

Christian: No! I am full of passion, My heart aches when I think of that poor Tibetan boy! I hate any injustice! It is my duty to do justice to this world!

Gangster: But that Hindi guy took Miss Sikk Kim too…

Christian: You shut up, I don’t know who Miss Kim is, the Tibetan boy aches my heart whenever I think of him! Behides, that Hindi guy is basically a good man but you are such a bad person!

Gangster: What!?... Why?

Christian: Because that Hindi guy is a democracy and you are not. Democrasy is good. No democracy no good, period!

Gangster: All democracies must be good?

Christian: Yes.

Gangster: How so?

Christian: Because they are like me.

Gangster: Man… I am almost wordless. So far, I must say that you are unreasonably self-centered and self-righteous.

Christian: Shut up! I know the Truth, God speaks to me! You don’t do what I say, I am going to boycott your f**king Olympics!

Gangster: ……Wait a minute……Gosh! Be respectful for yourself! The Olympics is yours! It is your tradition, I am hosting it for you to spread your culture. YOUR culture!

Christian: Mine is universal! Serving my universals is your honor! Failing it is your shame!

Gangster: So if a westerner hosting a Chinese New Year Parade, for whatever reason a Chinese guy doesn't like that westerner and pulls the westerner's pants off in public, you think it is the westerner's shame?

Christian: Yes, because he is embarrassed.

Gangster: It is the westerner's embarrassment indeed, but it is the Chinese guy's shame. For sure, that poor westerner is not going to do the Chinese New Year Parade again. Whose loss is it? Making the Olympics Ugly, yes, my embarrassement, yet your shame! Don't you get that?

Christian: It is your shame! your shame! I insist!

Gangster: Only confused, rude, and fundamentally un-cultured people would think and act that way. You seem very arrogant too. I used to worry how I could catch your guys up, but if this is the character and quality of your men, I am no more worried. Your men are no match of my men! You are no match of me!

Christian: Shut up! You are just such a bad person. And you are stubborn!

Gangster: You are a hypocrite!

Christian: I condemn you!

Gangster (angrily): I contempt you!

Christian: The contempt is mutual!

Gangster: Let it be!

(A moment of silence)

Gangster: Maybe I don’t need that stupid Olympics any more. I am going to cancell it. You will see whose loss it is.

Christian: Wait! You can’t do that either.

Gangster: … … How come? Don’t you want to stop it anyway?

Christian: I still need it to make money in you.

Gangster: Money!? I thought your concern was the Tibetan boy…

Christian: Yes, I still love that poor boy, my heart aches whenever I think of that poor boy, but we can talk about him some other time. It is about me this time.

Gangster: But… but…earlier you just said that it is all about me! The bad person…me?

Christian: It is about me now.

Gangster: So confussing… When will it be about me again?

Christian: I will remind you when I need you the bad person again.

Gangster: You are such a Moral Paper Tiger !

(The End)

Anonymous:

To be envied and feared as much as the ugly Americans?

Hey, it's a compliment. We have arrived!!!

Jed Clampett:

Well 'so it is', Hostility or contention is merely a function of indivicual perception. Believe what you see, believe what you hear, but realize that the way your feeling changes how the world appears.

In the west there are media outlets that offer nothing but disinformation. The national enquirer in the US is one such publication. While there are those who believe the contents within it's pages,there are others who look at it for entertainment, to laugh at the ridiculously absurd stories within. It helps us recognize when others are attempting to BS us. The couple of posts that appeared between your statements and this one are a clear indication of that.

I am deeply troubled by the posturing and verbiage being diseminated by the PLA. It shows that it is willing to send this planet into a conflagration of proportions previously unseen on earth merely because their 'feelings are hurt'.

I remember with fondness my time spent in China learning about the mind and body. It's people were very kind and quite generous even though they lived under an oppressive overlord that caused great suffering among the people. You see, even though the PLA sends it's tools to these boards and tries to equate the people with it's government, we have learned reality is much more nuanced.

My recent communications with emigres, escapees and students from China and it's 'protectorates' lead me to believe that generalized statement that 'they know what steps the CCP are taking, and they believe in the leadership of CCP from the bottom of their heart.' are either naive or somewhat deceptive. What i've been told is that they understand that the CCP has set up the opressive structure in such a way that any type of realistic discussion of problems is stiffled and eliminated. The CCP understands that a very effective tool of population control is fear. The beauty of fear is that you don't have to implemented on all the population, merely on a few and then present it to the others. They will avoid conflict because they know their contender doesn't know how to discuss things, it only reacts violently and opressively.

Now i don't mean to ridicule your last statement, but it just asks for further scrutiny.

'I like to take this oppotunity to point out one thing: Government like CCP is accountable for every action it takes because the government is not "elected" according to westen standard; but government like USA is NOT accountable because it is "elected"! Ironic isn't it?'

The CCP, since it is the only holder of power in the nation, has to answer to know one. It's complete control of the PLA makes it so it can set bellicose equipment and action on it's own people in it's own capital. People who were demanding accountability. They were murdered by their leaders rather than having their grievances addressed. What party leaders where put to death? Who paid by losing the wealth they had criminaly accumulated through party affiliation and abuse of power? just curious, perhaps you can elucidate.

In the west, political leaders are put to trial and held accountable for their misdeeds, and this is publicised because there is a pluralistic structure that allows many points of view and ideals. No one escapes scrutiny. Hopefully, soon we will see the current US administratio brought to justice for the crimes they have perpetrated. I guess it depends on how much the uber-wealthy that profited by the administrations actions control the media and therefore public sentiment.

Like you say,'When a person or a organization or a nation has reconized problems and doing the best to correct the problems, as a by stander, one should encourage the action with friendly advise, not to discourage with overly criticize comment.' which makes me wonder why the extreme vitriol towards the west in china. Sure, they did what humans have been doing for a few centuries now. Invading, exploiting the populace and resources, then left. Much was lost in this action. National culture and identity, language, knowledge and the ability to empathize with other's plight. Hard to feel for others when you yourself are in such trouble. But the west seems to have done pretty well to bring those nations up to modern standars, even though the exploitation continues in all nations, to all peoples. Why is the same logic that you begin with above, not applied equally to all participants... even in your posts>

rymnd2008:

Oh yes, I must now confess

- I am brainwashed by CCP
- I am agent of CCP
- I am typing at gun point
- I am so suppressed in China
- I am so admire your system of electing your president
- I am so admire your freedom of speech
- I am so admire your freedom of carrying guns
- nothing in China is good
- nothing in China ever works
- nothing in China worth anything
- China is too crowded
- China is air polluted
- China's highway must be paid to use
- China's milk is too expensive comparing with the west
- China has no flavourable cheese
- China allows smoking vehicles on roads
- China allows motorbiker wearing no helmet

You feel much happier to see all that, aren't you?

rymnd2008:

So funny to see pro-US people are not losing points in arguments. Now, what they can do, is to resort to branding people

- brainwashed
- secret agent
- stupid
- not living in the land of freedom
- not allowed to demo against Chinese government
- living in the west, go back to China
- blah blah blah.....

In their simple head and mind, against whatever government does, is very cool regardless right or wrong. Therefore, if don't say bad things about your government, you are bad too. Simple, isn't it?

Their argument is getting thinner and thinner, weaker and weaker. the westerners are sub-consciously brainwashed by their media without knowing being brainwashed. Sad, isn't it?

Some people even typing spanish. What a joke.

Anonymous:

Las maquinas son sordas y ciegas pero sablen hablar, y hablar, y hablar. Aunque no entienden realmente lo que dicen. Deja a ese automatico y busca otro blog donde haya conversacion mas constructiva. A esos no se les puede hablar directamente, por eso que yo lo hago de forma indirecta con palabras que para su cerebro no tienen sentido pero para su espiritu trae un poco de esperanza. No permitas que cambien tu character con repeticion de tonteras. cuando veas que es lo mismo de siempre, sin intento de conversacion constructiva, ignoralo y metele materia que lo haga titubear en su pensar y su apoyo por lo que es malo.

Me parece que tienes una situacion economica bastante estable. Si quieres ayudar y invertir, lee a un tal Viktor Schauberger, es uno de esos scientificos naturales que aprendio de naturaleza. Es buena lectura, creo que podras comprender sus teorias.

so be it:

Correction:
to; Jed Clampett, not Jed Plamette in my last post.

sorry Jed

so be it:

To Jed Plamette:

There are lots of things that the CCP deserved to be criticized: corruption is the most obvious; widening gap between the rich and the poor; public health care system is very poor; pollution situation is pretty bad... to name a few.
But the CCP knows the problems and is doing a good job trying to solve the problems. Oh, almost forgot: the freedom of speech and media. True, China still has lots work to do, but if you compared now to 20 years ago, it's night and day and it's getting better all the time.

When a person or a organization or a nation has reconized problems and doing the best to correct the problems, as a by stander, one should encourage the action with friendly advise, not to discourage with overly criticize comment.

Why the chinese posters refused to criticized China? Because they know what steps the CCP are taking, and they believe in the leadership of CCP from the bottom of their heart.

But the most important thing is : in chinese culture , us comes first, me comes last.

I guess that's why you and most westeners feel confused and don't understand.

Most posters ( includs you Jed )are honest people, why can we discuss in a peaceful manner?

I like to take this oppotunity to point out one thing: Government like CCP is accountable for every action it takes because the government is not "elected" according to westen standard; but government like USA is NOT accountable because it is "elected"! Ironic isn't it?

CASTRO:

And to follow up to my previous post. The logic that makes me think "I am fairly certain that SOME of the posters are official chinese government bloggers" is that with yours, mine and other "active" participants in this blogg are respoding to one anothers points, referencing and countering each other in what I had earlier thought was a constructed discussion while about 15% or maybe more of the posts are just standard, frequent, and appearing posts, that do not seem to respond to anything specific, if at all. Most of those responsible have for the most part went away and it appears to me that only about 6 or so have continued. Does the above seem logical? Over the past two to three weeks, the same thing has happened on over a dozen other article bloggs, the first few days there seems to be frequent and repetative postings that are either "word for word" the same or with very slight differences. Is this just random, that I have read probably over 500 posting in over a dozen different sights, with only about 8 to 10 differing points, with a handful of slight veriations, none of them to anyone specific or making any reference and seeming to me to be out of place in my experiance with similar bloggs in the past. My experience with political, cultural, historical, etc.... bloggs is rather extensive, meaning 100's if not over a 1000 different ones. The only thing I have not read on this one is people trying to get others to go to some dating, porn, or escourt site.

T.S:

Thanks for the responses to my last post. Now a few words for Castro who apologized for the transgressions the West had committed against China. I retold a few historical incidents not to rekindle old grudges, but to provide a background pix for the so-called "tibet issue"---the Brits had their eyes set on tibet since 1880, the US since 1950s.

Now, about Castro's "sorry", I believe in your sincerity, thus I accept it in the spirit it was offered. I do not believe in collective guilt, but I do believe in collective responsibility. Especially in democracy, we choose the right path by choosing the right leaders. But unfortunately, even in a democratic system, the freely-elected leaders can lead us astray.

In the English language, "sorry", a simple, seemingly humble five-letter word , carries more weight than it seems. It is of noble nature. Sometimes it is casually uttered, other times it is offered with deep emotions. But always, it is meant to be a peace offer. As a gesture of goodwill, it can bridge separation, diminish misunderstanding, soothe hurt feelings.

Human conflicts ,whether among peoples or among nations, usually come from separation, with emphasis on differences and discrimination.It is the mindset of "Us vs them". Yet what connects
human beings is their similarity--the basic innate needs and emotions. The needs for food,shelter, security, love, dignity, acceptance,freedom from fear and want, etc. are
universal and connect us all in a increasingly shrinking and fragile world. Artificial differences in religion or in ideology should be regarded as life's incidental variations, not as inevitable obstacles in human relationships.

Unfortunately there are lot of strident emotions voiced in these posts. The "Us vs them" is a recurrent theme here. Perhaps in the final analysis, in a world damaged and exhausted by over-consuming, there is no Us or Them, only we, the common villagers shipwrecked in the same boat in the same stormy ocean.

Your "sorry"is refreshing among these heavy rants and emotions. It is a simple humble little word, yet its power lies in its humility. When it comes from the human heart,it touches the human soul.
Thus the potent power of the word "sorry"should never be slighted, just like we never dare to slight the magical power of spring flowers, rays of sun beams, or a child's smile that speaks of angels and heaven.

CASTRO:

Hi, someone wrote the following in response to my post

"your proposition of many pro-china here are official posters are ludicurous, which says how much is the depth of your so-called "reason". you said pro-china side makes only limited arguments and basically repeating the same thing. Funny! Your side has been repeating the same thing on tibet for quite half a century and i don't see anything new added recently."

vs what I said

I am fairly certain that SOME of the posters are official chinese government bloggers, as there are to many repeats of the same message and there seems to be a limited amount of arguments THEY make.

Please reread what I said. I said SOME, which is logical as I went off and said the repetition of SOME bloggers as is my experience on many other bloggs. How does SOME turn into MANY or ALL on the pro-China side? Plus I said THEY, refering to the SOME? Now I would have expected you to respond that the same can be said with Pro-west and I would COMPLETELY agree with you, as I have stated that the back and forth with the same point is not helpful. The main thing that I now think, is this is completely an issue of pro-China vs pro-West to you, nothing in the middle? I have NEVER made any reference to Tibet or Dali Lama being right and China CCP being wrong. Nor did I ever point fingers, ever. I conseded your point on health factors being a hinderance on Han and I appriciated the insight. I also defended chinese posters "Some have/do" and I was just saying that I think that the perception that all chinese never say anything negative about China was false, then I went on and said in fewer words that the reason some people may think that is because I am "fairly" certain that there are SOME people posting over and over again, and you can not 100% tell me that it is not possible that there maybe a link to CCP. Please reread my original posting.

Now if I acted like the pro-China bloggers I contend are flooding the bloogs, I would say "The native and slavery issue is the Wests internal affair, so mind your business as you are hurting western feelings." That point was very low for me and I did not want to make it, but I felt a stong pointed needed to be made, even if I myself do not agree with it. You making reference to that SICK FU** in Austria as if it is only in the west or typical of the west or the tipe of the Ice Berg was a Very low point from your part and very similar to someone previously making a link to China's preceived misdeeds having caused the outbreak among China's children. Do we really want to sink so low that we can site and point that type of fingers, as this can go behond our lifetimes.

to castro:

Castro wrote: "Some have/do. I am fairly certain that some of the posters are official chinese government bloggers, as there are to many repeats of the same message and there seems to be a limited amount of arguments they make. Not to worry as they are actually doing the opposite of what is intended, unless there intent is to reinforce commonly held, western media biased reporting. They only reinforce the opposite of what so many of them state, Not understanding each other is mutual."

castro, i said in a previous post that i see you as trying hard to reason and to be disinterested and balanced in your arguments, which i appreciate.

from what i quoted above in your latest post, it's clear enough that you're just a "so-called". your proposition of many pro-china here are official posters are ludicurous, which says how much is the depth of your so-called "reason". you said pro-china side makes only limited arguments and basically repeating the same thing. Funny! Your side has been repeating the same thing on tibet for quite half a century and i don't see anything new added recently. as one poster named Debunk King well put it, if chinese refuse to respond to your totally repetitive charges year after year, then you'd say you are right. if chinese begin to respond like now, you'd say either we are ugly or we have limited arguments. What a LOSER you ARE!

A central argument your side put forward is the so-called Han Chinese flooding tibet, that there are so many Han Chinese there outnumber the tibetans, that Han Chinese dominate the local governance leaving no room for tibetan representation.

if you have read my previous posts regarding the background of why there are Han Chinese serving in TAR government you should at least begin a serious post reflecting on the validity of your side's proposition on this innundating Han Chinese immigration issue. I'm yet to see it.

Please use your reason and tell us: Lhasa is 3600 meters high, and there are probably even higher areas in TAR, the health risk is significant, and medicare system in the rest part of China is no different from a collapse, health issue is now called one of the three "mountains" crushing the back of Han Chinese (education, housing the other two). tell us, why any sane reasonable Chinese would ever think of going to live permanently in TAR given such formidable costs?

since you believe your side has loads of fabulous argument, please let us know how you reach the conclusion that Han Chinese is flooding in tibet? please don't tell me you read it from Dalai Lama's speech and or speeches based on his speech. he can't even reconcile himself with the figure he claimed reduced by Han Chinese with the current tibetan population census.

and to the extent that there are Han Chinese living there, tell us why you think they are not entitled to live there permanently if they choose so? if Han Chinese allow 1 million of South Koreans to live in China, using the very limited resource this land may offer, why can't Han Chinese choose to live in Lhasa if they really want to take the health risk?

who built those roads in tibet, Tibetan or Han Chinese? what do you think of the likelihood that large Tibetan labour would be used to build those infrastructures that provides convenience primarily to local Tibetans? If Han Chinese is the main or the exclusive source of labor force doing those terribly challeging road work, if local tibetans are using those roads to kowtow all the way to Lhasa to the Potala Palace, is there a problem of both ethics and morality (quoting Qian's insightful distinction)that Han Chinese are accused of planning cultural/racial genocide by tibetan exiles and all their western backers?

as to your question "who would pay for the compensation due to the natives in american and oceania", well, i know that Chinese should not pay for it, that's manefestly clear. You and your fellow whites pay for it, you all share a joint liability in this, as to how to divide this liability internally among yourselves, that's not our business. The Chinese need to remind you whites:

1. the liability to make up for your past sins aginst the natives are exclusively yours and you are a lot lot lot away from making your apology a genuine one, because natives are a lot lot lot away from the stage to live a life as comfortable as the UPPER-CLASS of your white race lives.

2. if you cannot make good your proclaimed "feel sorry" to the natives in financial terms, that's a debt on your shoulder; DON'T try to shift burden to anyone else, DON'T try to CONSTRUCT others as ugly so that your massive moral/ethical deficit can miraculously turn out to be massive moral/ethical surplus.

3. if you are obsesesd in doing the DON'T, then be conscious that we are not dumb, the world at large is not full of dumb people that can't see through.

To conclude, I would say the west has long suffered from a psychological problem. you need a super-psychiatrist but who sorrily is non-existent. it's just like that recently reported austrian father who locked his daughter underground for unbelievably some twenty years and screwed her through and through and even touched his granddaughter born out of such abhorring incest. the man appears fairly normal during daytime. his wife knows nothing. his neighbour know nothing. he's just a folk. and this happens in the beautiful cultured country of austria. on the social psychological problem the west suffers, this might be just one annecdote or the tip of the iceburg.

CNN news:

The Olympic flame reached the top of the world Thursday morning, carried to the summit of Mount Everest by climbers wearing oxygen masks to breathe in the thin air of the earth's highest point.

A 21-year-old Tibetan woman -- the youngest member of the expedition -- carried the flame atop the peak.

The climbers started their ascent at 3 a.m. Thursday (3 p.m. Wednesday) along the Tibetan side of Everest, known there as Chomolungma. Twenty-two of the 31 climbers were Tibetan.

CASTRO:

Hi Jed Clampett:

"Do you ever wonder why the 'Chinese' posters on these boards never admit that china has done anything wrong?"

Some have/do. I am fairly certain that some of the posters are official chinese government bloggers, as there are to many repeats of the same message and there seems to be a limited amount of arguments they make. Not to worry as they are actually doing the opposite of what is intended, unless there intent is to reinforce commonly held, western media biased reporting. They only reinforce the opposite of what so many of them state, Not understanding each other is mutual.

Jed Clampett:

Do you ever wonder why the 'Chinese' posters on these boards never admit that china has done anything wrong? Or how they always want to link the western governments, and the plutocracy that controls them, with the populace? Could it be they are trying to do the same thing western governments did so long ago? instill a hatred in the populace in order to use them to start a war between countries so that they can take advantage of the situation to enrich themselves and control even more of the worlds wealth.

Could chinese posters ever find anything of substance to criticize about their nation? The way young girls are brought into the cities to supposedly work and help their family and then exploited and abused perhaps? The way people are sent to re-education camps when they have views that differ from the party line?

rymnd2008:

People in the west are being brainwashed systematically by their government and media unconsciously.

1. when ethnic minority, in China, live on their own. the west complains that these people are second class citizen in China and being neglected;

2. when ethnic minority, in China, is being helped by promoting education, science and technology. the west complains that these people's identity and culture are vanishing and are not respected;

Not matter what's happening in China, it is wrong, therefore, China should pay NO attention at all to the west. This is just an excuse for China bashing.

One more way to illustrate how americans are VERY ugly and hypocrates.

In 18th century, during the expedition of the west america, tribes of Native Indian refused to give way. In this scenarios, what would happen?

pro-US readers will tell you, of course,

1. we gave them "freedom of speech"
2. we gave them "right to vote"
3. we gave them "representative in our congress"
4. we gave them "dialogue and peace talk"
5. we gave them "roadmap to peace"
6. we gave them "presevation of their identity and culture"
7. we gave them "blah blah blah blah blah"

Amazing, isn't it? In fact, Native Indian got nothing but rounds rounds of bullets and cannon balls.

Comparing with this, China's treatment to tibet was, is, will always be better than that.

CASTRO:

"That means money."

How much money? Who will pay it? Most Natives died from disesas they did not know how to prevent and starvation, not direct killing. The Spanish did in most of the Indians in South and Central America, but now they are split into many different countries, that continued the oppression. The US as it is today was originally split between England in the East, France in the centre and Spain/Mexico in the West. Who will get it and how will it be divided? The US and Canada have special funding for Natives, they do not pay tax and they can setup special types of businesses that others can not on there land. There have been hundreads of small native protests and I know some in Canada have lead the courts to return land or additional payments. With regards to slavery, that is a different set of issues. How do you define slavery, who started it, who benefited it. The UN defenition inlcudes children working, prostitution and actual purchasing people as forms of slavery. How many countries today have slavery right now under such definitions? A day does not go by that there is not a child work scandle or prostution ring or actual the sale of people, especially women for wives or sex workers in this world. With past slavery, that actually originated in Africa, when the Portuguesse arrived. Slavery was a part of some African tribes, when they went to war with each other, they often took prisoners as slaves. Those African tribes would trade with the Portuguese for goods and in turn, the Portuguese would sell them to others or ship them off to Brazil. Then the Spanish, Dutch, and English got involved. People have this idea that the west invaded Africa and used force to enslave the local population, some did, but a lot of it was in trade, at least at the start. If it was all forced, why did not the west enslave all the Indians, Asians, etc... Well, maybe it was all a matter of approach or opportunity. The "new" world as Europe had deemed it was divded between Spain and Portugal back in the early 1500's. Portugal got Africa, most of Asia, and the Eastern Part of North and South America and Spain got the rest. They had the right to spread the christian religion to those parts of the world, but Spain took it as there right to control and conqure there part and Portugal took it as the right to create a monopoly on trade and domination of the sea. After about 80 years, England, France and the Dutch wanted in on it and the stakes got much higher. The sad truth, many see the history as the west exploiting everyone else, which is true, but the rest of the world sufferred due to the fighting in Europe between the powers there. They needed resources, money, land, etc so as to better fight each other in Europe and the rest of the world was forced to be involved . A lot of the western powers used the rest of the world as pawns. The Dutch convinced Japan to kick Portugal out due to the fast spread of Catholisism and fear that it created, yet it was about trade. The french and english used Native tribes as soldiers against each other, Spain just went on a killing spree, Portugal handed over a lot of its holdings to England for protection and fought the Dutch everywhere on Earth. Etc... Well, we do not need to be a prisonar of this ugly past.
Unfortunatly a lot of what happened between England/Spain/France/Portugal/Dutch/etc. in the past seem to be playing between USA/EU/Russia/Chin. The fear is that the players have changed, but how much has the game changed.

Anonymous:

"That makes sense. The times they refer to Tibet leadership, it always seems like it is a communist party appointy, like Hu was in the 80's."

In fact, back in China it's widely believed that even Hu himself, when being the Party-Sectary in TAR in the 80's, didn't spend all the time there; he, too, had to move down the plateau to the plain ground for recuperation.

And one thing that naturally comes when most Han seconded officials have to from time to time move down the plateau for health reasons, you can imagine that during their absense who would be handling their job? I think not unreasonbale to specualte that a considerable portion of the job during their absence is delegaged to those of Tibetan ethnicity, since they physically can always afford to be there. While this doesn't lead to the inference that those of Tibetan ethnicity would play a dominant role locally, at least it points to the possiblity that those of Han ethnicity also don't a role as dominant as supposed to be in the West. Plus, one need to think about the level of education by the local officials of Tibetan ethnicity. If they are not educated in science they wouldn't fit to do the job of say planning for a telecommunication system in TAR- for the locals to view CNN say or receive a mobile call from their relative from Dalai Lama's Dharamsala in India. It's only natural that Han officials would play relatively leading role in such things for the simple reason that if Tibetans want to read science in China they'd better read it in Chinese language; as exile Xu Minxu analyzed in his pivetol book, Tibetan language is still lacking in its capacity to generate modern-day science terminologies; playing political correctness of language in things like science can be dangerous. Maybe in the long run Tibetan language is fit for studying physics, chemistry, but that takes time and investment, and for now, be realistic, if you want to introduce science and technology to TAR, you still have to rely on Chinese language as an apparatus, and the Han Chinese are certainly fitter to do the job- while this means they have to take a considerable health risk if they agree to work in TAR.

jian:

To Castro,

There is a difference between morality and ethics, I hope you understood that in my first "angery", "non-forgiving" comment that got your attention. As well, there is a differnece between honesty and sincerity, one can appologize (honesty) but never confesses (sincerity). Regonizing wrong doings on red Indians etc. is only an honest appology, one should not hide behind it from a true effective confession. The former only requires change of mind, the later heart. As it has been edvident that the insincerity and arrogance of the west in the past month or so stay the same. In fact, this is true Ugliness.

CASTRO:

To Jian,

"Westerners should whip their media hard."

The issue with that, which is what in the end started all the debate is the following;
1) most in the west do not take the media very seriously
2) most in the west know that a lot of it is bias and speculation
3) there really is no mechanism to harm them or "whip" them hard
4) to shut them up would be a violation of free speech. Free speech is not necessary turthful, just free.

"But agreeing to move to live in TAR for say three or four years even with a higher salary and ranking I bet is always the last thing the absolute majority of Han Chinese would ever consider. A critical factor here is health. Lhasa is some 3600 meters high. The health implication is not just as simple as you feel some headache."

That makes sense. The times they refer to Tibet leadership, it always seems like it is a communist party appointy, like Hu was in the 80's.

The only three ways to "punish" western media is to ignore them or to boycott the parent company (CNN is owned by General Electric I believe, etc.) or to register complaints with the national broadcast agencies of a country

Anonymous:

To Jian and Castro,

"Regarding forgiveness: The west has been unusually lucky, most victmized cultures to the west are forgiveful ones. China, India... are not revengeful cultures, and many of others, if revengeful at all, no more existent or too weak. 9/11 was already a very odd one."

Castro, "the good indian is the dead indian". If apology is really meant to be an apology, it should have come with genuine actions to compensate for the native's loss in America and Oceania and Africa. That means money. Is there now any, ANY, Indian native now among the top 500 richest persons in America? As a fair go, I think the Indian group, just by receiving compensation, should have long ago produced quite a few richest persons in the world, with the rest living at least a middle-class life. Is that the case now? No, and it'll never be. Because, for the simple reason, they are too small in number, therefore constitutes no formidable political voice, therefore can be left aside, while allowing a few cosmetic symbolic demonstrations for the native people's rights may even enhance the image of democracy. let the natives protest, because that'll lead them to nowhere.

Jed Clampett:

Reminds me of living in La Paz for a couple of years. While I was lucky to be one of the unnaffected by the altitude sickness, many of the group I was with became very ill. Some could only cope by using what nature provided the Inca's with, coca leaves and lime. Interesting culture the Inca. Before they got sickened previous to the spaniards arrival, they had built a utopian civilization. They prospered for centuries, created wonderful art and handicrafts, developed a codified language of color paterns and pictures, eliminated hunger, enjoyed a relative peace, developed a system of health prevention and treatment including surgery. Man, talk about doing alot while we turn our attention to the benefit of all rather than the domination by the few, no?

jian:

To the Host,

Sorry, I hit the "post" button several times when there was no response... Please delette the duplicates. Thanks.

to Debunk King, you said it so well!:

"But Mr Promfret is very clever. By accusing the counter voice as ugly, he put Chinese in the trap of damned if do, damned if you don't. If you argue against it, it proves you are ugly. If you are silent, you admit you are ugly. Many neocons in this forum happily pick up this trick conviniently when they are out reasoned. But they have one last trick in the bag, they can accuse you either CCP controlled, or love CCP. That's classic MacArthurism folks.


For the geopolitical circles both in US and
China, this debate serves up well to argue for more funding for projects with subject on the threats of the other side. For normal Chinese emmigrants around the world, this only perpetuate bias and prejudice against them among those who know little about China or Chinese culture but only hear news from the biased media. This starts to sound more and more like the fear mongering about the Jews many years ago. But you cannot convince these geopolitical fanatics with any facts, truth, or reasoning. Between self interest and truth, they already pick the side of self interest."

jian:

To Castro,

Regarding forgiveness: The west has been unusually lucky, most victmized cultures to the west are forgiveful ones. China, India... are not revengeful cultures, and many of others, if revengeful at all, no more existent or too weak. 9/11 was already a very odd one.

jian:

To Castro,

Regarding forgiveness: The west has been unusually lucky, most victmized cultures to the west are forgiveful ones. China, India... are not revengeful cultures, and many of others, if revengeful at all, no more existent or too weak. 9/11 was already a very odd one.

Anonymous:

TO Castro: "- Tibet is a part of China, period. But, why are all the senior officials there not Tibetan? Some local representation is considerred fair and reasonable around the world, even Natives in the US have representation, etc.... With ownership comes a higher level of duty, if duty has been appropriate, then please allow free access to determine."

Castro, you are a man for reason, for sure, I think many here would appreciate this. I can tell you try hard to observe things in a reasonable disinterested and balanced way.

as to your point on native representation, what i can tell you, as a chinese, based on my information and reasoning capacity, 1. the Chairman of the Tibet Automous Region Government is a hundred percent of Tibetan ethnicity, notwithstanding the Party-Secretary of the TAR is of Han ethnicity. 2. I tend to believe that not a minority but a majority of the civil servants working for all levels of TAR government across the whole TAR area are of Tibetan ethnicity. Civil servants with Han ethnicity can't be the majority because these people are mostly sort of seconded to work there from their original posts in the Han regions of China. They normally would only be seconded to TAR for a few years. Salary would be much higher than their original post would get them, and they would also be promoted in administrative ranking if they agree to be seconded.

But agreeing to move to live in TAR for say three or four years even with a higher salary and ranking I bet is always the last thing the absolute majority of Han Chinese would ever consider. A critical factor here is health. Lhasa is some 3600 meters high. The health implication is not just as simple as you feel some headache. In the very important but regrettably untranslated work on Tibet-Han dispute authored by Xu Minxu, himself a political exile now living in Boston but with four year work experience in TAR back in the 80's, he provided some very alarming figures on this health implication issue.

In fact even those seconded to a post in TAR don't normally spend all the time there; they return to where they come from mostly for recuperation or extended holiday-again, the physical challenge is enormous and decisive here.

Han Chinese who choose to work in TAR either are born there or, if coming from outside of TAR, then mostly I believe are there because they simply can't have a decent chance to make a living in the Han regions, as a result of the cruel barbarious capitalism now surging every corner of Han regions, the most ostensible group of people benefitting from such capitalism being the privileged officials and privileged westerns plus privileged Japanese and South Koreans and Han Chinese from Taiwan.

Reportedly, by 2008, there will be about 1 million of South Koreans living (not visiting) in China, mostly in Beijing, Qingdao and Guangzhou. Remember ROK only has some 40 million people. Obviously, so many surge into China because life is good or even better here- for themselves at least.

jian:

To Castro,

I was only helping westerners to see how they are seen, and show them how to achieve their goal effectively.

Whether or not they have done enough to undo their wrong doings is judged not by them or me but the victims.

No, China is not doing the same crimes of the west. Westerners should whip their media hard.

CASTRO:

Hi Jian,

"This is the only truthful, sincere, and mostly importantly, the only effective way of doing it. The west must confess sincerily in heart and in action first. This is the universal ABCs of ethics. So westerners don’t even know that?"

Many coutries in the west have confessed. None of the things you cited are secrets, Slavery, colonization, etc.. Not a secret. The atrocities against Native Indians are in all American and Canadain History books, 100's of documentories, etc... Same with slavery, same with Nazi's, same with a lot of them. Many nations have confessed and working towards forgiveness and if you do not know that, then that is unfortunate and perhaps you should alter your search to the area's of knowledge that would indicate that. You through Jesus in, Jesus tought about many things, especially forgiveness. You repeated the concept of "punishment" many times, you are not interested in forgiveness, just revenge, punishment and justifying your own anger. I am sad for you, you do not recognize the trap you are in. Second, most of those issues are specific to a region. What you suggest as appropriate punishment, considering most of the people involved are dead. Eye for an eye? What enslave the great, great, great, grandchildren of those originally responsible? Develop technology to bring back the dead and put them in front of a firing squad? Should we appologize on bended knee? I do not believe that there would be any way to heal some people in the world for the wrongs long since done. Helping others, asking forgiveness, never forgetting and working to prevent it happening again are the only real way to move on. China is getting attention because of the last one "preveting it from happening again." Even in your statement, by needing to confess to China all our Western mistakes, implies that China is on the road to making similar mistakes. Does it not? So despite your anger, which only you can decide how to heal it, your words seem to indicate you see China as moving down the path of repeating Western ills. "That way, China has no choice but at least listens." They would only need to listen if they are going down that slippery slope. I think we are making progress. Also about Jesus, God is the only one who can punish, so we will probably not know who is right and who is wrong until we die, when God gets to judge us. Anger only hurts you and if anyone thinks the west can so easly be "punished," good luck.

Anonymous:

Entonces en realidad has aprendido lo que la vida es y lo has internalizado. Por eso que te digo que tienes luz interna que facilmente se expresa en tu forma de hablar.

No lo pierdas.

No es necesario creerlo para entenderlo. Yo naci en un mundo catolico, pero rapidamente aprendi la hipocrecia de ese grupo. Despues fui trasladado a un mundo semi-evangelico, butista, donde la hipocrecia de aquellos que usan la religion es muy evidente.

Nunca he sido religioso, siempre he sido espiritual. Se que entiendes que hay una diferencia. Como humanos nos aferramos a las cosas que nos hacen sentir seguros, (comfortable). Hace una decada tuve una experiencia en que no pude negar lo que se me mostro. Aunque no soy religioso, no me queda mas que creer en una fuerza mayor, y que esa fuerza que ha sido nuestra madre esta siendo corrumpida por fuerzas externas. usando a sus hijos como las erramientas de su destruccion.

Eres uno de los ultimos que mencione. Tira pa'riba loco. Continua con tus conocimientos de economia y sigue haciendo buenas obras. Dios quiera podamos regresar nuestro mundo a su antigua gloria.

CASTRO:

"Los secretos de la naturaleza son muchos mi amigo. No descuentes nada antes de entenderlo bien.'

Well put. It is not the blind who can not see, but those who's hearts and minds are closed that are trully blind. I recognize that my eyes are closed to many possibilities (currently), but as long as my heart is open to hope and my mind open to knowledge, my eyes can allways be openned. The two greatest threats in this world are those who close both mind and heart as they will never change and always walk in a world of perceived darknes and those who have openned both, but were only shown one possibility, as they are doomed to do others bidding.

"Crees que el Dalai es la catorceava reencarnacion de un espiritu antiguo?"

I do not discount it, but to say a really believe would be a lie. I am not sure that it has much meaning for me, as it is not the faith I practice. Do I think reencarnation is plausable, yes, actual, not sure. I live by several rules in life;
- I do not now everything
- All people are works in progress
- If you do not grow as a person, then you are without purpose
- Constructive discussion leads to better understanding
- Life should not be about money/power, but personal growth

Jed Clampett:

Funny, I call it... 'the leadership of all nations having been compromised by foreign invaders and the rest of the common man is merely along for the ride'

People don't care about the leadership's contrived divisions designed to maintain a state of tension in order to justify the need for a centralized government to control the populace. While those who are incapable of internalizing knowledge and unable to invoke wisdom will always be manipulated by these callous leaders. They now have the media with which to spread their dissembling to such an extent that almost no media outlets can be trusted, since they are owned by huge conglomerates that use them to maintain their monopoly on all industries or governments that use it to manipulate the emotions of the populace.

How do you think 5% of the population owns 85% of the wealth?

Jian:

If I were a westerner and were sincere to help, below would be what I would say to Beijing (assumming honesty of western media, but it is edvident by now that their honesty is questionable However, for the sake of analysis, let’s assume relative honesty of western media at this momment):

“We westerners have committed so many crimes: slavery trading, global colonization, genocides, cultural genocides, Nazism…. you name it, we did it, and we have not even been punished yet. But we feel very bad about it, and things have not turned out good according to the law of Karma. Racial tensions, family failures, morality crisis… Even the word “white” sounds like a bad word now (at least in USA), morally we have already been being punished, our conscience tortures us….. So, if you, China, is doing or even just thinking anything remotely similar to what we have done, please do not do it.”

That way, China has no choice but at least listens. This is the only truthful, sincere, and mostly importantly, the only effective way of doing it. The west must confess sincerily in heart and in action first. This is the universal ABCs of ethics. So westerners don’t even know that? A murderer protesting at someone else for his not respecting life, a rapist protesting at someone else for his not respecting women, will that someone else respect the opinions of the unconvicted, unpunished murderer? Rapist? This behavior can generate nothing but mutual contempts at best.

As it is clear, westerners feel OK to protest as the murderer and the rapist described above, un-enlightened, un-embarrassed, un-convicted, un-punished. What does this phenonmenon reveal? It reveals: under the surface righteousness, westerners are still of the same arrogance (we are now “good people” since we are not doing slave trading any more, we therefore can criticise you, after all we are still better than you…), and the stubborn self-centeredness, in other words, the same illness of the heart that once made westerners white colonists and slave owners and still at this very moment war profiteers, and this is what hypocrisy means in a more fundamental sense if not a more hopeless sense.

Such simple basic ABCs of ethics, do we really need to teach it to westerners here? Is not the west supposed to be more “developed”? Where are the west's culture or wisdom? Didn't Christ teach that when the mob was about ot stone that poor woman, or, shouldn't Dalai Lama have taught it to his western admirers?

And besides, protesting is a very lame form of culture. Oganized rudness and yelling are still rudness and yelling. Should any people of intelligence really believe yelling at someone’s face will make a difference for the better? There is something called “communication” in human culture which takes sincerity and patience. But as it is edvendent now, westerners know only two things: going to war and going to protest. Impatience, if not Stupidity, this is what I call it.

Jed Clampett:

Personally, I've had the joy of working with children wiser than most elders I know. These kids learn things above and beyond what they are taught. Sometimes I try to trick them and they catch me everytime. It is almost as if they already knew these things and they are merely doing a review, sometimes even correcing their teachers. These kids give me hope for the future and should be helped every step of the way.
Don't be fooled, some ARE born with knowledge and wisdom.
Some spirits are recycled though they don't get to keep the memories of their former bodies, their experiences are recorded in their spirit(much harder to access but has it's effects by way of kharma). These the enemy of man will never be able to turn to their side. They have seen what the Earth was like before it was overrun. They understand what prosperity and happines is all about, they thirst for freedom because they've known true freedom before.

The comments that Castro highlights are an attempt to obfuscate debate, stiffle harmony and create dischord, nothing more, nothing less. The people that wrote them have no greater good at heart, only their own selfish interests. They will cite history, as if any of the past matters when there is no future. They will cite other's transgressions in order to justify their own and give themselves the impetus to act in even more horrendous ways. They recognize those actions in others as evil, yet when they use them, they are oblivious. They will fight against anyone they perceive as using these tactics like rabid dogs, because they understand why they use the tactics and would not allow others to use on them.

Even though the warnings have been distorted, ridiculed, obfuscated and dissembled, nature has tried to warn us of our dilema for a long time. Ancient religions, just like the modern ones, warn of impending doom at the hands a deceptive invader intent on enslaving humanity. Why is it, with all the evidence that this is so; Mugabe's enslavement of his people, Burma's refusal to warn their people of the approaching storm, Americas wealthy causing the collapse of world economy at the time when it is most harmful, do people not wake up and realize their world and way of life is being threatened?
Are they truly so myopic as to think it merely the acts of a suicidal species?

Anonymous:

algunos nunca internalizan el conocimiento y nunca desarrollan sabiduria. Otros, desde ninos demuestran sabiduria mayor a su edad pero nunca internalizan conocimientos. Aun otros mas son capazes de internalizar conocimientos y nunca convertirlos en sabiduria. Y despues estan aquellos que nacen con ambos. Los espiritus antiguos son de esta clase. Algunos nacen encendidos, a otros se les requiere algun evento o emocion que los active. Los secretos de la naturaleza son muchos mi amigo. No descuentes nada antes de entenderlo bien.

Crees que el Dalai es la catorceava reencarnacion de un espiritu antiguo?

CASTRO:

"no te metas Fidel, no es contigo. Tu tienes la luz de espiritu y eso se refleja en tus palabras y la forma en que te expresas. Esas otras criaturas no entienden que lo que hacen tiene consequencias."

I understand, but no one is born with wisdom or knowledge. Everyone one is a work in progress and those who will not at least listen and try to understand will eventually face the consequences. These forums can be used for constructive exchange of ideas, unfortunatly from both sides some of it degerates to insults, hostility, facts/figures manipulation, finger pointing, redoric, etc.... None of those things will do anything more than renforce the other sides resolve.

The below are examples of what is not constructive;
- Americans are ugly, Chinese are ugly, West is worse than China, China is worse than America
- America had 20,000,000 million slaves (is that at once or throughout?), the CCP is responsible for the deaths of 30,000,000 chinese during cultural revelution, etc... Numbers are distroted and manipulated to make points
- Why American's do not protest Iraq, they do very much, this article is not about Iraq
- This is China's internal affair, not a point or valid, as this article is for western discussion to determine what we think, agree or not, and if so, what is our response. Some may stop buying China made products, others simply will not care. This is to insite a general discussion of our relationship given the context of recent events
- the west does not understand China, not valid as well, as it can be turned the other way, China does not understand the West. Plus, it does nothing to educate the west on china, not like the average chinese knows more than what is happening in the world then the average American, history education is bias EVERYWHERE. Understanding is a cop out and nothing more than an opinion. Make the statement and try to educate.
- repeating the same slogan over and over is pointless, if you did not convince anyone the first few times, then what makes you think the 4th or 5th time will work? Try another approach.
- If you have never been to a place, you can not trully know a place or comment, again not very relevent, I do not have a time machine and still I and others can make there own personal evaluation on any number of a million events in history. I am pretty sure no one is around from the slave trade times, yet people still make comments.
- Siting treates, not like no one has ever gone back on them or treaty points have been used against those not involved. Leave this one to the diplomat's
- history should not be used to justify the future

From my point of view the situation is the following;
- All media are bias
- There is some distortion on reporting, do to lack of access, information limitations, and those who are very malisious
- the Olympic's has always been political to some extent and both sides are equally using this for political gain
- There is a lot of uncertainty in the world and some in the west are looking to switch focus, distract, place blame, etc.
- There are shifts going on, China is growing, to what extent is only speculation right now. They may overtake the US, they may eventually tailer off like every nation in history. How much will they rise, uncertain, not even the CCP knows, they are actually very nervous about it themselves.
- China made promises to improve human rights and personal freedoms 7 years ago, it was part of them getting the Olympic's, this is true, the debate is to what extent did we expect, to what extent have they, and what is "reasonable"? I believe the wests expectaion was not reasonable, but that all indications is that China over the past year has taken a couple steps back
- Tibet is a part of China, period. But, why are all the senior officials there not Tibetan? Some local representation is considerred fair and reasonable around the world, even Natives in the US have representation, etc.... With ownership comes a higher level of duty, if duty has been appropriate, then please allow free access to determine.

Charles Austin:

John Pomfret's hypocrisy, crass ignorance and outlandish claims make me wonder if he had a hand in the fraudulent, libelous accusations of "crackdown on protesters in Tibet" by reckless "reporters" or "journalists" from the BBC, CNN and some other American/European propaganda machines.

Jed Clampett:

We may all be connected by the material world, but what is happening in China is that they are disconnecting the population from the spiritual connection they have with humanity, with spirit.

The harsh voices from the Chinese perspective, with a few exceptions, almost invariably speak in terms of economics, dependancy and entitlement. Their words are filled with acusations, implausible defense, redirection, and dissembling. Who uses these tactics? Why are they used? Is China's position and posture towards Tibet one of a comprehensive, diverse, empathic government or that of a despotic overlord? Why did ancient emperors use buddhist monks as advisers, rather than the modern use of bootshiner?

Earth can move the common people to act against any government, in any capacity. The machines may be able to manipulate some with their media and inflamatory language, spirit can move billions simply by speaking directly into their hearts. All that is needed is an open heart and mind to hear her. Seems the dragon that has China in it's grip is deaf to natures voice as it is to the clammors of it's own people.
Shameful, utterly shameful.
Wake up and protect your planet, you fools.

Anonymous:

The main reason for all these bashing and name-calling, is that the West still does'nt understand China.

The West is still China's most important customer.
We're all connected.

Debunk King:

The the main pillar of Mr. Pomfret's arguemnt is an incident of Chinese student protest in Seoul. That occurred in a heated protest, nothing stands out comparing with most protests around the world with frictions between protesters of different sides and between protesters and police. Nothing comparing to the animal acts of Abu Ghraib or the brutal bombing of Iraq innocent women and children. To compare the ugliness between the acts is false. Bo Yang's book is self critique within Chinese themselves. There are plenty of self critique going on in US and in the west in general. The ability to self critique is evidence by itself that these people are not ugly. Ugly is just a media sensational word. To characterize Chinese people or American people in their entirety is absurd.

But Mr Promfret is very clever. By accusing the counter voice as ugly, he put Chinese in the trap of damned if do, damned if you don't. If you argue against it, it proves you are ugly. If you are silent, you admit you are ugly. Many neocons in this forum happily pick up this trick conviniently when they are out reasoned. But they have one last trick in the bag, they can accuse you either CCP controlled, or love CCP. That's classic MacArthurism folks.


For the geopolitical circles both in US and
China, this debate serves up well to argue for more funding for projects with subject on the threats of the other side. For normal Chinese emmigrants around the world, this only perpetuate bias and prejudice against them among those who know little about China or Chinese culture but only hear news from the biased media. This starts to sound more and more like the fear mongering about the Jews many years ago. But you cannot convince these geopolitical fanatics with any facts, truth, or reasoning. Between self interest and truth, they already pick the side of self interest.

Jed Clampett:

You merely give evidence that the enemy of man is alive and well on earth and playing it's puppets for all it's worth. As we've devolved in the last couple of millenia, some have recognized the problem. Wise men through the ages have worked within the structures set up by our enemy, and persevered. Even though so many around them are infected, they wait patiently and do good works in hope they will be rescued by the mythical Hero. Has he arrived yet? what is her mission? Does she need to awaken the people and expose their plight for what it is?
Does he come with the sword of a warrior or the staff or a teacher? While in the west we still have hope and the certainty that better is possible. The interesting thing is that in the west, things are done to identify, expose and erradicate those that support the beast. In China, people are re-educated into accepting that the beast is all there is.

How would China react if Earth decides to take back the Three Gourges?

rymnd2008:

To pro-US readers,

Do you know there were 20,000,000 African black slaves traded to North America for the past 300 hundred years, in an absolutely inhumane way?

Do you know, in USA, racial segregation was on until 60s, 100 hundred years after US civil war and 200 hundred years after indepandence? What a shame in the land of freedom. God, I know this history otherwise, hypocrates brand themselves saints and lecture others about freedom. Uuurrrrrhhhhhh.

Do you know, in USA, native Indian were being slaughtered until 20th century. 5,000,000 native Indian purged? They are now second class citizen in USA. Shooting Indian like chicken, were shown on Hollywood movies, and US people learn history in cinemas.

Do you know, innocent Iraqis and Afgans, mainly women and children died, killed by US military EVERYDAY. Iraqis and Afgan people are thanking USA for giving them freedom. Am I dreaming now? Or Am I in a coco land or what?

Do you know, wherever US military stations, sexual abuse of local girls often happens. Nice NOT to have them stationed in the soil of China.

Do you know, during China's cultural revolution, people killed each other with arms. This was the same as in US's civil war where US people killed their own people in their tens of thousands.

How on earth China is more ugly than USA?

Jonathan:

Correction,
Chinese do not speak English. These folks are pro-China Chinese Americans. Or American educated Chinese. Yup, our tax dollar educated these folks. What is wrong with that. We really gotta check our educational system that is pumping out drop-outs and Communist supporters. Vietnamese here fight for human rights back home. Burmese too. Tibetans. But no Chinese are proud of their Communist Party, authoritarianism and is ATTACKing basic bill of rights. Even UN has universal declaration of human rights which if you ever bother to read it.

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Chinese failed even the Article 1. They don't belong in UN and they really need "educated" elites to free themselves from authoritarian rules. But no, even US educated Chinese are gladly waving Red China flag and in full support of their "so-called" government and are willing to be violent to suppress freedom of speech.

We, the people, are liberated people. I am angry at the pure concept of Communists flag waving Red Chinese "freely" walking around my neighborhood. It just doesn't make sense. They belong there if not, I do believe we still have communist party member registration at FBI.

Jonathan:

Correction,
Chinese do not speak English. These folks are pro-China Chinese Americans. Or American educated Chinese. Yup, our tax dollar educated these folks. What is wrong with that. We really gotta check our educational system that is pumping out drop-outs and Communist supporters. Vietnamese here fight for human rights back home. Burmese too. Tibetans. But no Chinese are proud of their Communist Party, authoritarianism and is ATTACKing basic bill of rights. Even UN has universal declaration of human rights which if you ever bother to read it.

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Chinese failed even the Article 1. They don't belong in UN and they really need "educated" elites to free themselves from authoritarian rules. But no, even US educated Chinese are gladly waving Red China flag and in full support of their "so-called" government and are willing to be violent to suppress freedom of speech.

We, the people, are liberated people. I am angry at the pure concept of Communists flag waving Red Chinese "freely" walking around my neighborhood. It just doesn't make sense. They belong there if not, I do not we still have communist party member registration at FBI.

Anonymous:

Dynasties and political ideologies will come and go, but Chinese culture will always endure.

Jed Clampett:

Perhaps one should ask the first born of Egypt wether the children of the opressor are a fair target.

The PRC did not think twice about how it frightened the children of Tibet when they decided to bust through their doors in the middle of the night and drag away their fathers for re-education because of the crime of having a picture of someone they consider sacred. That which slept has now awakened and found it's children destroying it's creation. Now it must correct things. Question is if the children deserve compassion or force. The rule is... treat others as you wish to be treated. The PLA has shown how it wants to be treated by the way it has treated the people of Tibet.

It is still within our power to help earth heal, but first we must help heal it's people. Otherwise, earth will reduce human mass the only way it knows how. Don't try to assign it human values or considerations, it doesn't care, just like you don't care there are microbes in your belly that help you digest your food. To them you are God, yet if they were not there, you would not exists. Likewise, without you, they would not exist. Listen to the philosophers and sages who have brought you the wisdom of the world and the methods of prosperity and happiness. Implement those things quicly and at least show the intent of a desire for healthy change, rather than a violent restructuring of the existing paradigms.

Anonymous:

no te metas Fidel, no es contigo. Tu tienes la luz de espiritu y eso se refleja en tus palabras y la forma en que te expresas. Esas otras criaturas no entienden que lo que hacen tiene consequencias.

Nephew Sam:

It appears many pro-Beijing Chinese have commented here. Their participation is needed in this discussion, and I welcome it. However, the tone and content of their comments provide further evidence of a dangerous nationalism existing among many Chinese. I would hope that these patriotic men and women would turn their energy towards reforming their autocratic government instead of rattling their sabres at foreigners.

NOTE TO THE EDITOR:

You MUST divide the comments into different web pages when they reach into the hundreds. Scrolling is impossible, and those who are unable to afford a fast internet connection will have difficulty reaching the comments page.

disturbed:

JJ:
What about those soccer hooligans that start fights in Europe every year? Why don't you write a article titled ugly Europeans? Don't you think it is childish to generalize a country by actions of few of its young citizens? It is like saying all Americans are polygamist because there are few cults like that in Texas.

I agree with JJ.

I understand why people are upset with some issues related to the Chinese government, but am outraged that the same people are not equally vocal about their own governments. If the US wants to create a distraction from the war in Iraq, steering the media to anti-China sentiment is both easy and predictable.

disturbed:

JJ:
What about those soccer hooligans that start fights in Europe every year? Why don't you write a article titled ugly Europeans? Don't you think it is childish to generalize a country by actions of few of its young citizens? It is like saying all Americans are polygamist because there are few cults like that in Texas.

I agree with JJ.

I understand why people are upset with some issues related to the Chinese government, but am outraged that the same people are not equally vocal about their own governments. If the US wants to create a distraction from the war in Iraq, steering the media to anti-China sentiment is both easy and predictable.

To Jed Clampett:

Did u know Tibet was once a warrior nation before it became feudal and agrarian?

If you are American, you should be championing those natives closer to home who suffered more in your own backyard, rather than fighting for a faraway land.

CASTRO:

"Now China's children are suffering from foot, hand and mouth disease. HMMM!!! almost prophetic, don't you think? Perhaps this is how nature responds when you assault those monks that have the last remaining link to her"

This type of thought should be beneth everyone. There is no reason or link or anything to the harm that is being done to the children. Even if your logic were relevent, why would nature attack children vs adults, when it is adults that do harm to nature or each other. I know nature is cruel, but any force that would do such a thing is not worthy of worship. This is not "balance" in any form. Anyone can twist natural events, next you will say Burma's oppresive government brought the Cyclone???? Indonesia suppression of East Timor brought the sunami a few years back, Earthquake in Pakistan was do to some people supporting Islamic Jihad??? None of that makes sense, except to a bully, is nature a bully, is god? Not in my heart. Things have a more logical explanation. Do I think more pollution will lead to more natural issues, yes, but to try and make a connection like you did is offensive, even to the monks of Tibet.

terfmop chinese:

To Jed Clampett: So much hatred in your posting. Are you also pretending that you are a Dalai Lama-loving Bhuddist or christian.

Anonymous:

Some people prefer the world to have one good superpower, who does not act unilaterally.

Others prefer a multipolar world order, so that no one gets too aggressive.

Jed Clampett:

How about that...

China stretched out their hands and stole the mountain kingcom like a vile thief. Assaulting with force of arms an unarmed agrarian nation.

With their opressive boot they stomped down peaceful demonstrations by monks, scholars, requesting and audience and redress for their grievances as allowed under chinese constitution.

In response to the world population's support of the people of Tibet the Chinese government sent out it's voice via the media, internet and diplomatic channels to spread lies and disinformation, poison and bile, aggression and divisiveness.

Now China's children are suffering from foot, hand and mouth disease. HMMM!!! almost prophetic, don't you think? Perhaps this is how nature responds when you assault those monks that have the last remaining link to her.

Perhaps China's leadership should rethink it's greedy and violent ways.

Jian:

Jesus Christ: Stone that woman! Stone that woman! She's Ugly!

Dalai Lama: Good job! ... But don't kill her.

Chairman Mao: Pretty spiritual paper tigers!

Confucius(slap Chairman Mao at the face): Silence!

Pharaoh Khufu: Longevity isn't always a blessing.

Paris Hilton: It is! it is! Chinese ugliness is so sexy these days! So Cool!

Darden Cavalcade:

More on the recent enterovirus outbreak in China:

Associated Press

BEIJING (AP) — New outbreaks reported Tuesday in three Chinese provinces and Beijing put the number of children infected with hand, foot and mouth disease above 12,000 and the death toll has risen to at least 26 across the country.

The official Xinhua News Agency said outbreaks in southwest Yunnan, the northeastern province of Jilin and the tropical island of Hainan, putting the total number of infections at 12,164.

Two kindergartens in Beijing were temporarily shut down Tuesday after children there showed symptoms of the disease, Xinhua said. There have been 1,482 cases in Beijing, most in kindergartens, it said.

At least 26 children in China so far have died from the disease. Twenty-four of the deaths, in the central province of Anhui and Guangdong province in the south have been blamed on enterovirus 71, one of several viruses that cause the disease, Xinhua said.

Two other children — one in Guangdong and another in the coastal province of Zhejiang — have also died of hand, foot and mouth disease but it wasn't immediately clear which strain of virus killed them, it said.

Although nearly all the deaths have been blamed on the virus known as EV-71, it was not immediately clear how many of the overall infections were traced to it. Xinhua said in Yunnan only nine of the 113 cases were caused by EV-71.

The hardest-hit areas include the provinces of Anhui, Guangdong, Zhejiang, and the capital Beijing. There have been smaller outbreaks in Hebei, Jiangsu, Hunan, Hubei, Shaanxi, Jiangxi and Henan provinces and in the city of Chongqing.

Xinhua said the jump in cases was due in part to a new regulation from the Ministry of Health classifying hand, foot and mouth disease among those that have to be reported to the central government.

CASTRO:

Follow-up

Do not forget about India, or the direction of Islam, or any number of a 100 different possibilities that may happen. The US is following, not yet and when powers fall, it usually takes decades. Back to "first" MEGA POWER. English Empire anyone, Spanish conquest anyone? Mandarin is the #1 language in the world, but 98% live in China. English and Spanish is official in well over a dozen countries, if not a lot more and with Spanish, is not that far behind. China's economy would have to more than triple to match the US and today's financial issues is not much difference from a half dozen other financial crises the US has had and survived. Savings and Loan's anyone? People forget the past when things get good and are unprepared when things turn bad, nothing more. As long as the US has Canada for resources, Mexico for labour, EU/Japan for financing and Russia/China to argue with, they will have all that is required to keep their dominance in tact. Yes, I said EU/Japan for financing, EU holds almost 4 times more of US debt than China and Japan over 1.5 times. Hell the middle east holds about as much as China.

ANONYMOUS:

...since as Mao said "power grows out of the barrel of a gun".

That's Mao's version of "Might is Right" and it is still true on the world stage.

Tibet is in China the control, deal with it.

CASTRO:

"They are on the very verge of becoming the only Mega Power this world has seen and they will have the money to sustain it."

Mega Power, are we creating new terminology. Power, World Power, Super Power, Mega Power, Ultra Mega Power or Mega Mega Power or Ultra Super Mega Power or ? Please, money to sustain it, it has a ways to go, as the same had been said about Japan in the 80's, and USSR in the 60's. China represents about 20% of the worlds population but only about 7% of the worlds wealth. Eventually they will level off, like everyone does. Everyone forgets the US grew like crazy for decades, same with South Korea, Japan, etc... This is another economic cycle, like all others in the world, with ups and downs. The numbers effected are higher, but many fail to forget several very important points, natural resources are limited, odds our we will either starve to death, get a huge epedemic, war for resources or just run out of resources all together. A lot of the media is focused on China and the media as many have pointed out, is often wrong and misleading. China's GDP per Capita is approx $6,000 and that takes PPP into account vs nominal. In about 5 years growth will be harder to come by, eventually all countries stagnate, it is just a matter of time. Simple economics, you can only grow for so long, based on available resources and human capital, unless we find another world, the world will be hard pressed in about 30 years, if not sooner. Second, people forget about several wild cards, Brazil increasing its dominance in South America, Russian ambitions (they sure know how to fight), EU anyone??? Everything right now is pure speculation, so please save the Mega Power talk, the future will be the decider.

Anonymous:

All this discussion about history is going off-topic and whether it favors one or the other does'nt mean anything since as Mao said "power grows out of the barrel of a gun".

ANONYMOUS:

To Pete:

"I would think when there is a discussion about the rights of an ethnic peoples, the Tibetans in this case, there would be real historical research and analysis on the issues. "We are all Chinese, just won't do because it is not true , except in the sense of current nationality of people who live here in China and are given an official ID card or Chinese passport." Why is it that the tens of thousands of citizens from other provinces the PRC has sent to resettle in Tibet, the vast majority, if not all, are Han people?"

Besides reading what TGIE says, I think you need to read up some works authored by

1) Melvyn C. Goldstein
2) A. Tom Grunfeld
3) Xu Mingxu (徐明旭 if you read Chinese, see www.tangben.com/Himalaya.htm)

1) and 2) are American Tibetologists who spent time in Tibet and who speak Tibetan. 3) was sent to Tibet for a number of years due to political dissent. Google/Amazon would help you find their works easily. When it comes to Tibet, I can't simply rely on "reporters/journalists".

It is true that people in China call themselves Chinese. They don't call themselves Han Chinese, of course, but they do call themselves Chinese and they ARE Chinese, be it Korean, Mongol, Manchu, Hui, Zhuang, Yi, and Han. If someone in the west can not differentiate Chinese from Han Chinese, it is really not a Chinese porblem.

Han Chinese repsents 98% of the Chinese population. Why those "Tens of Thousands sent" in to Tibet had to be ethinically discriminated? I don't understand why it is wrong that the majority was Han Chinese.

"As I understand none of the previous Han dynasties made claims to Tibet. I do not say the Mongols and Manchu dynasties made claims to Tibet, I think that is what the present PRC government says to justify invading and controlling Tibet now. In other words, the PRC is using slim, inconsequential facts to justify its 1951 invasion of Tibet and continued domination up to the present. One story I had read that is used by the PRC to justify its claims is that a princess from one country was married off to prince or ruler of the other country. I do not know which is which here. And another set of facts that is used to claim sovereignty of Tibet is Tibet sent ministers or high officials to Beijing to bow and scrape at the feet of the Manchus. But in neither of these cases did the two dynasties set up government control and run Tibet like was done in other parts of China at those times."

"princess marrying off prince of other 'country'" (whose very definition perhaps occured later than any of those events) was a means of maintaining relations in (hopefully) a peaceful way. I don't think China claimed Tibet by marrying one of her princesses to the king in Tibet. That was the Tang and China's claim over Tibet started in Yuan (many hundred of years later). "Soverenignty" is relatively a modern term. Clearly Tibet did not have Soverenignty during the Qing dynasty (1644-1912), not during the Republic of China (1912-1949), and certainly not during the People's Republic of China (1949 - present), no matter how the whole thing is spinned in the West. The evidence that Dalai Lamas (including the current 14th DL) political power had to be APPROVED by the central governments in Beijing or Nanjing says Tibet was not soverenign.

so be it:

To Skip Meadow:

Right on the money skip!!!!!!!!!

Let's not debate on useless issues and find a way to
establish a peaceful world order.

whataBSarticle:

The matter of fact is: Far-right nationlism has been very popular EVERYWHERE in the world now, specially in the "most rightious" Europe. China is simply catching up.

In Belgium, the most popular political party among the Flemish people (the Flemish Interest party) is far-right, nationalist, anti-immigrant, and anti-Islam.

In Switzerland, the most popular political party, the Swiss People's Party, is far-right, nationalistic, and anti-immigrant. It enjoys the support of 30 percent of the Swiss people.

The far-right nationalist Le Pen was almost elected president in France a few years ago. The only reason he wasn't elected is because he made a convroversial comment just prior to election. If he had kept his mouth shut, we would probably have a fascist president in Europe right now.

Italy is becoming increasingly far-right. The mayor of Rome is an open fascist. The prime minister of Italy styles himself an anti-immigration nationalist.

In Austria, the far-right has positioned itself into the political mainstream and banned Mosque construction! The far-right People's Party of Austria (the BNP of Austria) received 42.27% of the vote in 2002!

The British National Party is becoming a mainstream political party in Britain. 60 percent of the British people said they agreed with BNP's chief policies, according to a skynet opinion poll. The BNP is the most popular politicla party in several regions of Britain.

The Netherlands has the anti-Islam, anti-immigrant nationalist Geert Wilders of the People's Party for Freedom, a man infamous for producing the anti-Islam 'Fitna' hate film. He and his party are steadily gaining ground and a recent opinion poll showed that most Dutch people agree with his anti-Islam position.

terfmop chinese:

Pete:

You are doing it again.

My question was "Do you know the Manchu claimed to be the Chinese?"
Now you answer it "I have never heard any Manchu person claim to be Han Chinese".

I am pretty sure that you know the difference between "Chinese" amd "Han Chinese".

Is this how you engage a serious debate?

To Pete:

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at.

If you support "Self-determination", then there must be many native ethnic groups around the world which will fit that criteria.

If you are a Caucasian American, and you support the native Americans' claim to their land, then you have to pack your bags and move back to Europe.

Skip Meadows:

Everyone may as well get used to it. For the next 150 years or so, the Chinese are going to occupy the place held by the US for the last 150 years. Their economy is going to be the one that drives the global economy, not ours. They are on the very verge of becoming the only Mega Power this world has seen and they will have the money to sustain it. We have always been quick to criticize the Chinese but perhaps we should look at our own past deeds before we condemn others for theirs. The US stole 1/4 of it's total continental landmass from Mexico in a war time action. If we can just take the property of another soverign nation then why can't the Chinese do the same thing (?) Stop whining about the Chinese and figure out how to live with them. They are the heirs apparent since the demise of the US seems to be in progress. They have 6000 years of culture and history to draw from and they certainly can't do any worse job that the US has done as an example to the world.

Skip Meadows:

Everyone may as well get used to it. For the next 150 years or so, the Chinese are going to occupy the place held by the US for the last 150 years. Their economy is going to be the one that drives the global economy, not ours. They are on the very verge of becoming the only Mega Power this world has seen and they will have the money to sustain it. We have always been quick to criticize the Chinese but perhaps we should look at our own past deeds before we condemn others for theirs. The US stole 1/4 of it's total continental landmass from Mexico in a war time action. If we can just take the property of another soverign nation then why can't the Chinese do the same thing (?) Stop whining about the Chinese and figure out how to live with them. They are the heirs apparent since the demise of the US seems to be in progress. They have 6000 years of culture and history to draw from and they certainly can't do any worse job that the US has done as an example to the world.

pete:

terfmop chinese:
The only quote I made of your statements, I copied and pasted. Are you now denying that statement?

It is well within debate standards and reason to characterize a debate opponent's statements. Notice I did not put quote marks around my characterization of one of your statments.

I have never heard any Manchu person claim to be Han Chinese, but they claim Chinese nationality even if they do not want to as they would be stateless which I doubt the PRC would allow.

Let's get to the real issues here. Firstly, you don't seem to want to talk about the PRC's invasion of Tibet in 1951. Why not? Does it destroy the PRC case for claiming Tibet? (Now I see you are a clever boy, but to say the PRC was just "reclaiming" Tibet is a sophomoric use of words to try to avoid the real story as is the
claim the Tibet matter has been settled for years.)

The UN Declaration of Universal Human Rights provides a direction for the Tibetans, "self-determination." Let's see the great humanitarism of the Chinese government which I believe is embodied in the Chinese Constitution go to work and abide by its international commitments.

I would ask you to provide varifiable historical texts to support the PRC claim to Tibet, if you want to change my mind.

terfmop chinese:

Pete:

To add to that: I am not advocating redrawing some borders in Africa or questioning the existence of Israel. What I want to point out is we should stop this nonsense that there are legal claims on Tibet independence for any historical reason. If you really think there is one, the democratic process is to have you petition your own government. If you can’t even convince them, how are you going to convince any Chinese?

terfmop chinese:

Pete:

When you quote people, please don't cut it in a way that my original wording became not recognizable. In China, we call it now “don’t be too CNN”.

When I read your argument, it is so weak, that was just repetition of other postings.

Just a couple of quick questions: can you help me to understand who drew all the borders in Africa? Who drew the map of Israel? Are you trying to call Qin dynasty a colonial power? Do you know the Manchu claimed to be the Chinese?

Asian:

It seems that recently CCP have made China the enemy of 200 million ethnic minorities in PRC, never admitting and changing their oppressive and crafty policies on ethnic minorities(?) in PRC.
(The ethnic minorities living in PRC occupy the Majority of Territory and Natural Resources of PRC)

It seems that recently young Chinese have made China the enemy of the world, never blaming CCP's wrong policies and always blaming others(Tibetan and people of the world).

How many people in the world love Chinese? (esp. recently, of course except Chinese)

Why have CCP always blamed Dalai Lama for seeking independence?
(Wikipedia says :
The 14th Dalai Lama has said that "in order to develop Tibet materially as a modern nation, Tibet must remain within the People's Republic of China. Provided Chinese give us a full guarantee of preservation of Tibetan culture, Tibetan environment, Tibetan spirituality, then it is of mutual benefit."
He currently does not seek full independence for Tibet, but would accept an autonomous status similar to that now held by Hong Kong.)

Why have not CCP(esp, Hu Jintao) changed their wrong policies which have provoked Tibetan(Uyghur) unrest continually?

Because Hu has been on the promotional track after ordering discharge on Tibetan demonstrators in 1989 when he was CCP's first secretary in Tibet?

Because Hu and his followers(tens of millions of young CYLC(Communist Youth League of China(共青团)) have made and performed the oppressive and crafty policies on 200 ethnic minorities in PRC?

It seems that 200 ethnic minorities living in PRC face three options.

To be Chinese(Han people) after successful assimilation into Chinese.
To be Social Failure trying to preserve their own culture(religion, language).
To be Monkey in the Zoo as we can already see in some famous tourist resorts in PRC's ethnic minority's regions.

At last, I want to say "proper word / improper word"

Tibetan people / Tibetan Chinese (Han people? Han Chinese? Chinese people?)
Tibet Colony Region / Xizang(西藏 which is part of Tibet) Autonomous Region
(Wikipedia says :
Within the People's Republic, Tibet is identified with the Autonomous Region, which includes about HALF of Historical Tibet, including the traditional provinces of Ü-Tsang and Kham (western half).
Colony is a territory under the immediate political control of a state.)
Mongol / Mongo(蒙古 which means foolish and outdated and was made by Chinese)

Formosa:

Ugly Chinese does not apply to beautiful Taiwanese.

so be it:

To Jed Plamett:

Correct, you don't need to speak manderain to know what happened in Tienanman Square in 1989.
But what happened was right or wrong, why don't you ask chinese people especially those who have paticipated.

pete:

terfmop chinese:

To Pete:

If I understand your logic, since the Qing dynasty is not Han-Chinese, then we Chinese should not recognize any treaty it signed with Briton, USA, Russia, Japan and Germany? If I generalize it, whenever a new government comes to power (especially if it is formed mainly by another ethnicity), it can say all the predecessor's treaty are null and invalid? Is this the base for your assertion?

terfmop chinese:
No it's not. I am looking at what I know about land area generally called China. For one thing Tibet was never called or designated as China. More importantly, the Mongols and Manchus were invaders into the territory of Han Chinese and there was no grant of authority or rights from the predecessor dynasty to its usurper dynasty, either Mongol or Manchu, neither of which peoples claimed to be Chinese.

anonymous:
Your comments maybe characterized, in the nicest, but critical way I can manage, as lacking substance. I would think when there is a discussion about the rights of an ethnic peoples, the Tibetans in this case, there would be real historical research and analysis on the issues. "We are all Chinese, just won't do because it is not true , except in the sense of current nationality of people who live here in China and are given an official ID card or Chinese passport." Why is it that the tens of thousands of citizens from other provinces the PRC has sent to resettle in Tibet, the vast majority, if not all, are Han people?

As I understand none of the previous Han dynasties made claims to Tibet. I do not say the Mongols and Manchu dynasties made claims to Tibet, I think that is what the present PRC government says to justify invading and controlling Tibet now. In other words, the PRC is using slim, inconsequential facts to justify its 1951 invasion of Tibet and continued domination up to the present. One story I had read that is used by the PRC to justify its claims is that a princess from one country was married off to prince or ruler of the other country. I do not know which is which here. And another set of facts that is used to claim sovereignty of Tibet is Tibet sent ministers or high officials to Beijing to bow and scrape at the feet of the Manchus. But in neither of these cases did the two dynasties set up government control and run Tibet like was done in other parts of China at those times.

terfmop Chinese:

You say the issue of Tibet was settled decades ago. Who was it settled between? I do not see the Tibetans have agreed to what the PRC has done or there would be not dissatisfaction and 100,000 or so Tibetan exiles. What was settled decades ago was settled by guns and troops from PRC invading Tibet and forcing the Tibetan to accept the Han presence under penalty of death or imprisonment.

"There are no legal arguments that will support Tibet independence because it would cause problems for other countries such as Israel," you say. My friend that is pretty cynical and I am sure that is what PRC hopes will happen. But we are talking about human lives and a distinct culture, not musk ox or antelope. However, I read your support of the PRC/DL dialogue as a good sign of your humanity. My worry is that as soon as the Olympics are finished, that dialogue will end or go nowhere because the PRC will not voluntarily loosen its grip on Tibet.

wei:

As I stated in my previous post, I actually preferring the Chinese keeping a low profile right now until we really catch the West economically.
But still I like debate and can’t resist a good one here. So let’s look at the realpolitik here and examine exactly how much damage we Chinese incurred on ourselves in the recent rallies. The answer is minimal.
Let’s not twist the fact here. Almost all the pro-China rallies were held in Western Europe, Australia and North America. Did u hear any complains about these rallies? None! They were large, but peaceful and orderly. Actually they were so well organized, the only thing the Western media could do about them was to ignore them as if they never happened. The only violence u saw at these rallies were those committed by Tibetan activists. Of course they are lovely.
I would be honest here and did point out one ugly incident, which was the Duke incident. That was a disgrace. But even in that case, the ugly thing happened AFTER the rally. But again when u talk about realpolitik, let’s face it, how many people in the West really heard about this incident? Or more importantly how many people really give a damn about this incident in the West, besides some sensationalist journalists and China bashers? I bet even in Duke, people already forgot this, if they ever knew about this, and are all psyched up about tomorrow’s NC primary.
And then there is the Korea incident. I am still not sure about what happened there. Some people in the Chinese web site claimed the Chinese were provoked. It’s possible we were the guilty party. But I have no interest figuring out exactly what happened there. What does this say? It says we don’t give a damn about South Korea. Pardon my language. It is offensive. But this is the reality. As long as Korea peninsula is divided, South Korea will always be a second-rated country on the international stage regardless how strong its economy may be. (Remember West Germany?) And the road to Korea unification goes through Beijing.
One criticism leveled against the Chinese during this whole episode is that we are very insecured and really need a thick skin. This is very true. If China wants to be a great power, it can’t be bothered by every criticism. Grow up! It is really ridiculous for the Chinese foreign ministry to demand an apology from CNN, although to be fair, this is not unprecedented, just look at how US treats al Jazeera, including its bombing of al Jazeera’s Kabul office. So if u think about Ugly American, the title of Ugly Chinese is really a badge of honor. It says: Welcome to the club.

Ge You:

Anonymous wrote:

"Listen buddy I am too lazy to do editing. For you r information I took English exam and pass with flying color. I speak 4 languages fluently. How many languages do you speaks?"

--

Sorry folks, Anonymous wants to make this a pissing match and I'm going to have to oblige him. I speaks (sic) six languages fluently - the U.N. languages - and I can converse in an additional four. That's ten total. When I'm not bringing pretentious braggarts like yourself back down to earth I work as an interrupter.

You started this by flaunting your credentials and assuming a school with a big name entitles you to all the right answers. Where you went to school doesn't impress anyone here. We are much more impressed with honesty, humility, forbearance and compassion. Do they teach that at the MIT of Europe?

Sorry. You lose.

North Korean:

We like China!

CASTRO:

Hi,

"Looks that both of you have a tacit concensus that Macau, HK are not part of China. In what sense you are using China if not as the name of a country? so in what sense you are not treating Macau, HK as lands foreign to China the country? I know such subconsciousness is prevalent among euro-americans, but it says a lot about the life of the enterprise of orientialism."

In my mind Macau is a part of China, but, Macau has a place in my heart that is seperate from China, as it was a part of my peoples history for almost 500 years. Seeing that I am Portuguese. I say Macau, the same way I say Goa, yet I know it is part of India, same as Formosa or any number of places, including Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Brazil, Angola, etc.... Many places. It is part of my peoples history and if we want to get nationalistic, most of the people in Macau have passports from Portugal, doesn't that make them sort of my countrymen? Do you think that our points are attempts to seperate them from China? Portugal gave back Macau, they were not asked nor was there any demand or time limit. Portugal back in the 70's approached the PRC, to return the gift that was Macau back to the gift givers, China 500 years ago. This was after our dictator government was taken down, by the military, with no deaths and the military did not take over. We decided to either return back or give freedom to the remaining colonise. China actually said NO at first, then said not until HK is returned first, then they would take back Macau. I am a firm believer that all nations need to find their own ways that work. Portugal was a monarchy, then a republic, then a monarchy, then a republic, then a dictatorship (50 years) and now a republic, took three tries over 200 years. Our dictator was originally minister of economics, not many countries can claim that. Generals, revalutionaries, but an economist??? lol

Anonymous:

Young Korean:
Recently in Korea's internet, Young Koreans often say :

We do not like Japanese because we are Koreans.
we do not like Chinese because we are Humans.

May 6, 2008 12:14 AM | Report Offensive Comments

--------------

Your point, by entending its logic, is paving the way to legitmately wiping out the non-humans, or to treat non-humans as non-humans, that is, not humanely, but non-humanely, because that's what non-humans deserve to have.

Don't you think if this view is representative of some Korean community's mindset now, that this is bordering on being genocidal?

And could you tell all the fellow posters here that if Chinese are really non-humans, why so many Koreans, estimated in tens of thousands, would reside permanently in Beijing, Qindao, etc, among the non-humans?

And tell us fellow posters here if all the non-humans have been wiped out, then no one is there to read Chinese, then how are you to read comprehend your anciet history much of which is recorded in the language of Chinese not of your very recently emerged Korean script? Oh, I see, you would tell us that even after all the non-humans have been wiped out there would still be enough of you humans that can read the Chinese language. But, don't you feel it a shame that in order to comprehend your own ancient history, you even need to master a language of the non-human? Then tell us is Chinese the non-human like a dog, which is to Korea not a pet not a friend but a tasty meat to be consumed?

Young Korean:

Recently in Korea's internet, Young Koreans often say :

We do not like Japanese because we are Koreans.
we do not like Chinese because we are Humans.

Shawn to Anonymous:

Hi Dude,

Don't be too critical. When I wrote Hong Kong and China, it refers to HK and the rest of China. HK is definitely part of China, but it's just common practice to put them together that way. Even in Chinese language, We refer to them as Liang An San Di ( two sides and three places), right?

Be calm, Patriotism is a good thing, but don't mis-use it. Beside, sometime you have to think from other's point as well instead of just insisting on your own stance. When we criticize US, we also expect them to think in our way, isn't it? They have different value, the Christian value, which make them think different compare to us in some issue. the best is to compromise instead of direct conflict, which led to the Islamic and Christian War in Middle East.

terfmop chinese:

Don't blame them. None of us are diplomats. When you live in the west for a long time, you subconsciously speak their languages and using their terms. If I am not careful, I may mix up those too.

Anonymous:

castro wrote: "I am hoping to go to Macau and then China, plus other parts of Asia in two or three years. I am still exploring South America and Europe at the moment. Not enough time, but within the next 7 years I expect to have spent a decent amount of time on each continent. I may go the HK for business next year, but it is a long trip for a short stay."

Shawn wrote:"Just wish you could have a pleasant journey when traveling to HK and China in the future. And if you find anything makes you unhappy over there, don't blame us all completely, just remember there are different kind of peoples everywhere."

Looks that both of you have a tacit concensus that Macau, HK are not part of China. In what sense you are using China if not as the name of a country? so in what sense you are not treating Macau, HK as lands foreign to China the country? I know such subconsciousness is prevalent among euro-americans, but it says a lot about the life of the enterprise of orientialism.

HK fell into English hands only after England waged a most infamous war against China when China wanted to ban England's drug trade to China. UK at the time was a systematic state-sponsor of drug trafficking to China. If anyone cannot visualize this, then think of Columbia systematically dumps drug into America and how Americans would feel. UK's victory over China on HK is not a victory of virtue. That has always to be remembered.


Shawn to Castro:

Hi Castro,

Some of your comments really hit the point.

You ought to write blog so I can subscribe and follow up.

Anyway, I might not be able to catch up all the updates over here.

Just wish you could have a pleasant journey when traveling to HK and China in the future. And if you find anything makes you unhappy over there, don't blame us all completely, just remember there are different kind of peoples everywhere.

RJ:

Since all western thought the rise of China is threaten to the world and the rise of China made chinese ugly, then go ahead. u cannot stop that. Several years later the Chinese Country will be the most powerful threaton in the world. Because all u bias idiot make the sheep into the wolf, cheers ,you made it!

terfmop chinese:

To Sonagi:
“You're talking to a human being. Internet discussions would be a lot more civil if participants' nationalities, ethnicities, religious beliefs, gender, and sexual orientation were left out of the discussion.”

Are you kidding? Can you read? What is wrong with the curiosity to know your/his/her nationality? All I want is to able to better relate to his/her stand point. I did not hide that I am a Chinese and I do not feel offended by Mr. Pomfert's title.

why-chinese-are-ugly?:

Needless to say:

Chinese are too ugly for sure!
Why?

1/ Chinese are physically ugly! due to their face has no traces of beauty of beautiful living like many other people in the world for example the caucasian people, european people, etc.
2/ Chinese are intellectually ugly! due to they have been born in a society of treachery, unfaithful, lying, stealing, faking, violent, barbarous behavioural thinking and behaving as the world all have been experienced when seeing them acting in almost all activities in life and living and treating others!
It is sad indeed and the ugglies found from chinese are countless to show all people of the world!

Sonagi:

"You said that you are not Korean. Are you a Yankee or Southerner? I just would like to know who I am talking to."

You're talking to a human being. Internet discussions would be a lot more civil if participants' nationalities, ethnicities, religious beliefs, gender, and sexual orientation were left out of the discussion. If I had a dime for every nationality insult and tu quoque argument on this thread, I could retire.

BTW, you do realize that the "Chinese-are-ugly" commenter is not a native speaker of English and is obviously trolling.

"You said Koreans are angry toward the Chinese students pushed a few people around is bad for Chinese image? You must have forgotten what happened at world economic forum last year at Hong Kong where hundred of Koreans not only push, but hit and injured more than a dozen Chinese Hong Kong police."

Fenchin, you are right. Violent Korean demonstrators in Hong Kong tarnished Korea's image as surely as violent Chinese demonstrators did in Seoul. Chinese students not only pushed, but hit, kicked, and threw objects, sending some Koreans to the hospital.

terfmop chinese:

This is fun. First we talk about ugly Chinese, then Tibet, Taiwan. Now Tiananmen.

Now To Jed Clampett: just curious, where were you at time of Tiananmen? Were you also on the street of New York, SF, Chicago demonstrate against Chinese government? Or did you just read the story from newspapers archives? What do you know about Tiananmen?

Jed Clampett:

does that mean that you don't have to speak mandarin to understand that what was done in Tianenmen Square in 1989 was wrong?

CASTRO:

"To Castro: Does Agentina still claim Falklands (they call it Malvinas) from the Britons?"

You are correct. I did not think of that one.

I know this was not addressed to me, but I speak six, but some people believe Portuguese, Spanish, French, and Italian should not count as four. Yet they are very different. I can read, but my spelling in some of them is horrible.

so be it:

TO: RJ CHAPLETON

You are right, this is a blog for english language posting (I am a chinese ).

I agree with your post almost 100%, only a tiny bit I disagree. You don't need to understand German to know what Nazis did was wrong, but you do need to understand history to comment on history issues ( not only Tibet, but every where).

Jed Clampett:

talk about the chinese getting ugly... after the last few weeks of the totalitarian government in china sending out it's agents on message boards to post it's views. We saw what messages they gave their youth groups to disseminate.
the message was that the Chinese will not negotiate or even accept diplomacy. The language given, dalai lama a criminal, the murdered han, the media bias making china a victim, etc etc. is designed to kill debate and any negotiation. It is not designed to promote an environment of respect and mutual understanding conducive to negotiations, compromise and resolution. It merely wants to impose it's will on everyone involved and all else be damned.
This is not a good partner to do business with or to enjoin any other endeavor with, until it changes it's intrancigence and realizes the modern world is much more different than the fudal, totalitarianism it wants to impose on them.

Now, China has linked the tibetan freedom movement youth with al-qaida. While this would be completely in contravention of buddhism's tenets of peaceful resolution and harmony in all things, we are expected to accept the chinese version of things, as if we didn't know how dishonest they are in all things. Thankfully, we are not so fully deluded by the totalitarian regime's as their charges are.
Realize that there is a reason for making this connection. Not to try and discredit the tibetans, they are setting the framework to justify a full scale invasion of Tibet and a re-education of it's citizens. Re-education is the chinese version of separating a soul from spirit and will. To disconnect them from freedom and force them to join the hive of automatons.
During the Olympics, the Chinese government will set off a small explosive that will have minor consequences, but it will be used as justification to begin a full scale cultural destruction of Tibetan Buddhism, the one thing they fear above all others. That which empowers people to be good, kind, independant... in other words, embodies those things we have been taught to be virtues, as oppossed to the aggregious nature of the nationalism, greed, victimhood and victimization that the totalitarians want to impose on the people of earth.

Acknowledge the Position:

___Any country that want to establish diplomatic relation with China, has to confirm that Taiwan belong to China and there is only one China___

US has never done this. US has diplomatic relations with China.

Let's see. Japan. Japan has diplomatic relations with China. Taiwan was part of Japan for a long time. Did Japan give Taiwan back? Taiwan isn't part of the PRC, so I guess not.

I think your communist leaders let you down.

Anonymous:

Listen buddy I am too lazy to do editing. For you r information I took English exam and pass with flying color. I speak 4 languages fluently. How many languages do you speaks?

To those hair splitter that want to deny Taiwan as part and parcel of China. Any country that want to establish diplomatic relation with China, has to confirm that Taiwan belong to China and there is only one China

terfmop chinese:

To Castro: Does Agentina still claim Falklands (they call it Malvinas) from the Britons?

CASTRO:

"territorial dispute in South America"

What territorial dispute in South America? I know of several in Africa and Europe, but not entirely sure about what territorial dispute in South Africa?

Ge You:

Anonymous wrote:

"I went to the MIT of Europe and I take the entrance examination that even Einstein failed
and I got perfect 100 for history. So don't tell me that I didn't know european history"

--

Ok, we won't tell you that you didn't (sic) know european history. Instead can we tell you that you don't know English grammar? You might want to stay away from that entrance exam!

terfmop chinese:

I am curious to see anyone could argue Tibet’s legal claim to be independent without putting the existence of the Israel into question? How are you going to handle the territorial dispute in South America and Africa?

That is why I am saying let the history to the historians. Let Chinese and Tibetan talk and decide what they want to do. Encouraging China and Tibet to go back to the negotiation table is a good thing. But don't pretend that you know the Tibet solution and demanding something Dalai Lama does not even support, is even more troubling.

CASTRO:

Hi,

To the one who wrote "I went to the MIT of Europe and I take the entrance examination that even Einstein failed and I got perfect 100 for history. So don't tell me that I didn't know european history"

I suspect this is directed at me. Well, you have me there. MIT in Europe, you mean the equivalent to MIT, correct? MIT is in the US, unless I am worng, unless this is a different school then the Mass Institute of Technology. Because it would be strange that the entrance exames at MIT would have European history and its own section at that. So what is the answer to the question I asked? Which was very retorical and made to be sarcastic to make the point about your blatent attempt to make yourself look superior vs looking foolish. The fact you did not recognize that has actually proven my point further. Now I just think you are a liar or arrogant. So, did you go to the school, because I did not go to University, which probably makes you think I am stupid. Of course it is obvious all successful and smart people go to university? Sarcasim again.

Anonymous:

Here is the treaty in 1895 when China gave away Taiwan:

Article 2

China cedes to Japan in perpetuity and full sovereignty the following territories, together with all fortifications, arsenals, and public property thereon:—

. . .

(b) The island of Formosa, together with all islands appertaining or belonging to the said island of Formosa.

That was 1895.

SF Peace Treaty does not mention this Treaty.

SF Peace Treaty does, though, mention China twice and delinates China's benefits:

Article 21

Notwithstanding the provisions of Article 25 of the present Treaty, China shall be entitled to the benefits of Articles 10 and 14(a)2; and Korea to the benefits of Articles 2, 4, 9 and 12 of the present Treaty.

Note that Taiwan is mentioned in Article 2 as is Korea. Korea is explicitly stated to benefit from Article 2 where Japan gives up Korea. In the same article Japan gives up Taiwan. China is not mentioned as the beneficiary and it is not an oversight as Korea is cited as the beneficiary of clauses in that article and China is mentioned as beneficiary in other articles but not article 2.

terfmop chinese:

The last couple of postings just showed that history is so much to interpretations. It is helpful for understanding the matter but can’t used as the only basis to solve problems. Whoever advocating that Tibet should be independent from China (somehow we start arguing about Taiwan), why don’t you write petitions to your democratically elected government, so that at least they recognize your wishes. Don’t tell me that democracy does not solve this kind of problems.

Name Calling As Argument:

Interesting. I pointed out that the SF Treaty does not say what it was claimed to have said.

No argument against that was made. In stead there was name calling and a different argument based on opinion, not legal documents.

CASTRO:

Hi Nobob, No nothing, Illiterate Red neck:

Not here to debate a treaty I know nothing about, but when did the PRC get recognition as the correct government. I thought that there were still questions until the 70's when the UN seat switched?

Anonymous:

I went to the MIT of Europe and I take the entrance examination that even Einstein failed

and I got perfect 100 for history. So don't tell me that I didn't know european history

Nobob, No nothing, Illiterate Red neck:

Article 2

(a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet.

(b) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores

Not only that you are no nothing but also illiterate

How come when China cede Taiwan it is party to the agreement but when Japan annuled the ownership It conveniently ignored Doesn't logic say that it should return to the rightfull owner?

The reason because China and Taiwan is not party to the signatory because they were in civil war and at that time amd there is confusion who should be called legitimate goverment of China

With the return of PRC as the legitimate goverment of China than it should be return to PRC

Every goverment in the world recoqnized this fact only nabo ,ignorant red neck conveniently erased this fact!

CASTRO:

"The lack of historical knowledge about Chinese History in the west, is just embarassing."

Embarassing to who? Chinese history not exactly madatory reading growing up and I would suspect German or French or English or Spanish or etc... history is equally not known in China, except by those who studied or has interest in it, same thing. Plus, your statement is very generic, there are people in the west that have great knowledge in that subject, just like there are people in China that have great knowledge of western hisory. The average westerner is no different than the average Easterner. How's about someone saying "The lack of historical knowledge about American history in China , is just embarassing." also works. What was the purpose of your point, to insult? To feel superior or try to convey that people in China are better educated? Please. What was your purpose? What, you expect everyone to know about what is a fairly specific and obscure treaty? What do you know about the series of treaties signed after the first defeat and issolation of Nepolean, what year, what is different vs the set of treaties signed after the second defeat. What is one called? What countries were they signed in? What city? If you can not answer, It is embarassing your knowledge of European history. I am just making a point. If you have a issue with what one person wrote as being different from what you have learned, refrain from making such comments that only make you look bad. The point to these boards is constructive discussion of issues and to gain a better understanding, not to try winning a point by making yourself appear smarter than others through belittling others.

Ignorance is Chicom:

___Does anyone ever know that San Francisco treaty voided all those treaties and called Japanese occupation illegal and forced Japan to annuled those treaties. Man talking about ignorance____

No it didn't.

And in SF Treaty China was not a signatory on the treaty nor was China involved at all in this treaty (neither Chiang regime or Mao regime).

SF Treaty is Japan's surrender Treaty. It was signed in 1951. Japan did renounce claim to Taiwan in that treaty.

The Qing government's part in the Treaty, cessation of claim to Taiwan in perpetuity, was not addressed.

These treaties are all available to read. You guys don't understand that unlike under the communists, we can actually have access to information and are able to determine your lies.

Here is the full mention of Taiwan from the treaty in context of other territories that Japan renounced claim to:

CHAPTER II

TERRITORY

Article 2

(a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet.

(b) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores.

Anonymous:

The lack of historical knowledge about Chinese History in the west, is just embarassing.

One poster said China cede Taiwan in perpetuity by signing Washington or Shimonoseki treaty.

Does anyone ever know that San Francisco treaty voided all those treaties and called Japanese occupation illegal and forced Japan to annuled those treaties. Man talking about ignorance

Another one said Mongol empire is not Chinese dynasty It might be true in Genghiz Khan time.

But by the time of Kublai Khan for all intent and purpose he is Chinese. He declared himself as Chinese Emperor and Declare his Dynasty as Yuan

He even went to war with his brother. Exactly because his brother think he become too Chinese.

He was chinese educated since his childhood and was accomplished Caligrapher and love poetry . He Invented the Beijing Opera and blue color porcelain that become his legacy until today.

At the end of dynasty most of the Mongols choose to stay in the China proper instead of returning to outer MOngolia where they are still there now

At the end of the world war II they become emaciated people. Their numbered dwindled and show sign of degenerating into alcoholism. Mao save them by improving their lot and give them their pride by building Mausoleum to Genghiz Khan and recover their heritage.

So that when Outer Mongolia shake loose the shackle of Communism .
They become lost people. Lost their alphaphet, Lost their history ,lost their culture. So much so that they have to send people to Bautou University to relearn their heritage

There are now 7 or 8 million Mongols in China vs 2 million impoverish outer Mongols

terfmop chinese:

To Huayi: you need to include my next statement into the context since legal precedent can still be created. "Because supporting any of these historical arguments, it will create political nightmares elsewhere in the world. Nobody is interested to get into this mess. Israel is the prime example."

huayi:

"The are no legal arguments supporting today’s Tibetan independence movement that will stand the international judicial scrutiny.."

Actually, the new issue of Far Eastern Economic Review makes this exact legal argument. I have not read it yet but it's there.

I don't know how to reply to the "that will stand the international judicial scrutiny" test however since international judiciary is a somewhat flaccid concept.

So.. There is a legal argument but there is not really a venue for it.

terfmop Chinese:

To Anonymous: I admire you for the thoughtful analysis. But I doubt highly this would convince the western people supporting Tibet independence.

To Peter / Alex: for me, with the recognition of all countries including western powers that Tibet is a part of China, the matter is settled decades ago. It is now up to China to decide whether it will allow Tibet to go independent. In a way, it becomes an internal decision.

The are no legal arguments supporting today’s Tibetan independence movement that will stand the international judicial scrutiny. Because supporting any of these historical arguments, it will create political nightmares elsewhere in the world. Nobody is interested to get into this mess. Israel is the prime example.

Therefore, the international community is using the human rights to supporting Dalai Lama, which China needs to pay attention to. The dialog yesterday is a good start.

CASTRO:

Hi Shawn,

1. Do a google search of china +cultural revalution, one source is wikipedia, but of course like the main point I was trying to prove is that Facts can be mis used or distroted, etc. Some say 20 to 30 million died of starvation, some say killed, some say more or less, some say other things. Same as saying 600,000 Iraqies dead, not sure about the number as I have read 100,000, 200,000 and a dozen other numbers, but how many from the US army. Add the mental damage they have done, which I think will be much worse in the long run. Chinese history is facinating, but it seems to have a lot of internal conflict, followed by long periods of calm.
2. Completely agree with you. This place is for a free exchange of idea and opinion. Once again, I was just expressing the distortion of facts, as some right wing people in the west call it murder. The truth is, I find abortion morally wrong, but I am only able to control my own actions and live based on my morals vs the foolish belief that everyone should follow me, like my choice just to not have children, period. The world will never get a rest, if we keep adding more mouths to feed.
3. Agreed. Death penalty has nothing to do with democracy. The countries I live in do not have the death penalty, but, it is sometimes less cruel than a life in prison, plus I believe child molestors should die, period.
4. Agreed. But part of there problem is not for the government to solve, it requires a change in attitude amoung some City chinesse. In a lot of countries in the west, Migrant workers are foreign workers, but from what I have read, Chinese from another province or from the country who move to the cities are treated like migrant workes by both the government and the urban population. That just seems a bit strange to me, if true.

I do not think you are hostile to me or at all. I do not have my own blog, I am actually pretty bad with technology. I have a few tech guys who work for me. I just like reading different opinions and love constructive debate with others. The only way to understand ourselves, is to understand others and how they think and feel. I really do not like the name calling and insults or the talk about "race" and "destiny" or those who claim we can not talk and debate, as if it is wrong to interact. I am hoping to go to Macau and then China, plus other parts of Asia in two or three years. I am still exploring South America and Europe at the moment. Not enough time, but within the next 7 years I expect to have spent a decent amount of time on each continent. I may go the HK for business next year, but it is a long trip for a short stay.

Anonymous:

To Peter,

"As I have read in blogs and in other places, China now claims historical rights to Tibet because the Mongol Empire and the Manchu dynasty had some kind of suzerainty over Tibet. Consider then both the Mongols and Manchu were foreigners (non-Han peoples) to China at the times of their separate conquests of China, which were accomplished hundreds of years apart . Both of those foreign dynastic masters of the Han Chinese collapsed and disappeared as ruling powers. Now as I understand it the Han Chinese dynasties never made claims to Tibet. My question then is how can it be claimed, argued and seriously believed by any rational, just person, absent the military invasion and conquest, the Han people now have absolute rights to Tibet? "

It would be an easy explanation if you looked at the whole Tibet as being claimed by China, not by Han Chinese. Mogols, Manchus, Han, whatever, are Chinese. It's China claiming Tibet, not a specific ethinc group. Also, I don't understand the why it is okay for the Mogols and Manchurians to claim Tibet, but not the Han's.

Mongols established Yuan Dynasty and its capital in Beijing. Manchurians established Qing Dynasty and its capital in Beijing, so was the Ming Dynasty and PRC. It's all part of Chinese history, not just Han Chinese history. You'll have to understand Chinese is not equal to Han, although Han is the majority.

Although dynasty changes, it's natural for the Chinese to believe who ever succeeded the power also inherited the territory governed by the previous. Therefore most Chinese view Mongols or the Manchurians one of their own, and Tibetans the same way.

I have seen the word "suzerainty" in some places, notably in the so called "Simla Convention/Treaty". It was a convention jointly attended by Tibetans, Chinese (ROC), and the British. The Chinese were ready to sign it but walked out because the Tibetans wanted the so-called "Greater Tibet" including parts of Sichuan, Yunnan, Gansu and all of Qinghai, which was "too much" for ROC (Republic of China). The then president Yuan Shikai told his representatives to walk away. As a result, nothing was signed by all 3 parties and therefore all articles in the 'Treaty' were invalid.

The westerners often see different ethic groups as "foreigners", which is foundamentally different than the Chinese view. The Chinese view they are all Chinese in the same family. True, there were wars between the Song and Jin, wars between Ming and Qing or even wars during Sanguo periods (among all Han Chinese), but they were just Chinese wars, and it does not matter who (Han, Mongols, Manurians) against who (Han, Mogols, Manchurians, Tibetans) as they are all Chinese wars.

PLA going into Lhasa is considered "reclaim", not just "claim" because Tibet was loosely governed due to wars in other parts of China (i.e., not just Han China, but entire China).

terfmop chinese:

To Alex:
Shouting slogan is not the way to discuss. Apparently you did not want to answer my question. Or will you? All I am asking is what the international norm should be on dealing with historical agreements. You can always pick a historical moment for your favor.
In fact, do you know how many ordinary Chinese care whether Taiwan is independent or not? You seems to think that the Chinese and the Chinese government have the same position on everything, do you?

ALEX:

Hah! Now the Chinese want to talk about treaties as a way to argue for their right to rule Tibet? Okay, here's a treaty for you, the treaty of Shimonoseki, 1895. 'Articles 2 & 3: China cedes to Japan in perpetuity ... the island of Taiwan ...'

The only claim China has to Tibet is the right of force and occupation. And the Tibetan people have stood up and rejected that claim. It's time for China to go.

Shawn To Castro:

Castro,

I read a lot of your comments, not going to answer one by one.

But to the 3 facts you listed,
1. I don't know where you get the number of 30,000,000+ get killed by CCP in Mao's CR, I never find that figure, please let me know your source, so I can gain some extre knowledge.
2. Abortion is consider as Murder, but not in all place, and you cannot force others to think in the same as you, right? As you don't want us to force your think same as us. Beside, One important fact is that these 0.4 Billions people would make the world smaller, with their children born by now, that would be another 1 Billion populars more, do you really want the world to be so jammed? Things got two sides, don't simply judge it this way.
3. As I know, Even some state in US still have death penalty, no death penalty doesn't = democracy
4. These workers are the problems to China, life won't suddenly get better for them. They need better education, policy and working opportunities. I hope and think the government has been and are helping them, If you compare 30 years ago when most regions of China were suffering similar situation.

The comments over here are updating too fast. If you wish, we can go to your blog and interact more, provide you have one. PS, I'm not hostile toward you, just think if you don't mind, could hear something from us as well beside keep urging and posting. I believe you don't want to post here for the purpose of posting.

To Castro:

Castro,

I read a lot of your comments, not going to answer one by one.

But to the 3 facts you listed,
1. I don't know where you get the number of 30,000,000+ get killed by CCP in Mao's CR, I never find that figure, please let me know your source, so I can gain some extre knowledge.
2. Abortion is consider as Murder, but not in all place, and you cannot force others to think in the same as you, right? As you don't want us to force your think same as us. Beside, One important fact is that these 0.4 Billions people would make the world smaller, with their children born by now, that would be another 1 Billion populars more, do you really want the world to be so jammed? Things got two sides, don't simply judge it this way.
3. As I know, Even some state in US still have death penalty, no death penalty doesn't = democracy
4. These workers are the problems to China, life won't suddenly get better for them. They need better education, policy and working opportunities. I hope and think the government has been and are helping them, If you compare 30 years ago when most regions of China were suffering similar situation.

The comments over here are updating too fast. If you wish, we can go to your blog and interact more, provide you have one. PS, I'm not hostile toward you, just think if you don't mind, could hear something from us as well beside keep urging and posting. I believe you don't want to post here for the purpose of posting.

terfmop chinese:

To Pete:

If I understand your logic, since the Qing dynasty is not Han-Chinese, then we Chinese should not recognize any treaty it signed with Briton, USA, Russia, Japan and Germany? If I generalize it, whenever a new government comes to power (especially if it is formed mainly by another ethnicity), it can say all the predecessor's treaty are null and invalid? Is this the base for your assertion?

Phuong:

rymnd wrote:
"n your simple head, you NEVER understand why young people and students are so bitterly offended by western media. You started to think they are brainwashed, they are Chinese secret agent in disguise... blah blah blah.....

The reason why the west lost young Chinese people, is your inadequacy to understand other people's way of life.

STOP lecturing us on how to live our own life as if you know everything, quite the opposite you know nothing about us."

__


Wow... I had no idea you felt this way....

Oh wait. I did, because this is the same response every other pro-china writer has made on this forum. Thanks for your contribution. Did you get around to mentioning how ALL Americans supported the Iraq war and the atrocities there? Let me check..

No... Come on RMYD!! what kind of Chinese are you! You're supposed to criticize us as hypocritical for killing Iraqis and not criticizing our actions. THEN you attack us for not being capable of understanding your great minds!

This is very bush league RYMND, I expect better of you in the future.

Anonymous:

rymnd wrote:
"n your simple head, you NEVER understand why young people and students are so bitterly offended by western media. You started to think they are brainwashed, they are Chinese secret agent in disguise... blah blah blah.....

The reason why the west lost young Chinese people, is your inadequacy to understand other people's way of life.

STOP lecturing us on how to live our own life as if you know everything, quite the opposite you know nothing about us."

__


Wow... I had no idea you felt this way....

Oh wait. I did, because this is the same response every other pro-china writer has made on this forum. Thanks for your contribution. Did you get around to mentioning how ALL Americans supported the Iraq war and the atrocities there? Let me check..

No... Come on RMYD!! what kind of Chinese are you! You're supposed to criticize us as hypocritical for killing Iraqis and not criticizing our actions. THEN you attack us for not being capable of understanding your great minds!

This is very bush league RYMND, I expect better of you in the future.

CASTRO:

"Fact #1 600,000 civilians died since your invasion.
Fact #2 30,000,000 black slaves traded in America continent.
Fact #3 5,000,000 native American Indians were ethnically cleansed."

Thing about facts, is that everyone can use them to make different points. Talk about bias, what about China facts.

Fact#1 30,000,000+ killed by CCP in Mao's cultural revalution
Fact#2 400,000,000 abortions over the past 25 years. Yes many in the West see abortions as murde.
Fact#3 Thousands are executed every year in China
Fact#4 Tens of millions of Chinese migrant workers are treated no better than slaves

If you are trying to tell us that China in its history had not destroyed entire regional ethnic groups, please? The difference between the West and China is one, opportunity. China had enough to contend with and did not go out and explore the rest of the world. Europe is half the size of China land wise and had three times the number of ethnic groups. That lead to a lot of war, not like China did not have its ups and downs. The biggest atrocity in human history was not done by Americans or Chinese, but by the Spanish empire. 150 million South American and Central American natives gone in the 16th century. Ask the question, who stopped them from Africa and Asia? For as much as people hate the British, If not for them, the world would not have so many people today and everyone would be speaking Spanish.

CASTRO:

To rymnd2008:

The US know's a lot about what it has done and many people have protested and written blogs, this blog has nothing to do with those things. The US know's nothing about CHina, that remains to be seen, but the fact you and others keep bringing up things that have nothing to do with the article. "Does a rapist use the fact his nabour is a murderer to excuse their actions?" No.

you wrote "STOP lecturing us on how to live our own life as if you know everything, quite the opposite you know nothing about us." Why? do you actually think if millions of chinese tell the US to stop, they will? No one is forcing you to read or listen. Works both ways, God I love freedom. The issue is not the West is saying, it is the fear that many will believe what is being said. Eventually the real truth will get out, is that something to fear?

pete:

To writers like "United Nation," Anonymous, "Dalai Lama" and others with similar thoughts on Tibet, here is a conundrum for you to provide some serious and intelligent comment about.

Actually,I would like anyone here to comment about the correctness asserted Chinese sovereignty (essentially military conquest and control) over Tibet and explain their thoughts.

As I have read in blogs and in other places, China now claims historical rights to Tibet because the Mongol Empire and the Manchu dynasty had some kind of suzerainty over Tibet. Consider then both the Mongols and Manchu were foreigners (non-Han peoples) to China at the times of their separate conquests of China, which were accomplished hundreds of years apart . Both of those foreign dynastic masters of the Han Chinese collapsed and disappeared as ruling powers. Now as I understand it the Han Chinese dynasties never made claims to Tibet. My question then is how can it be claimed, argued and seriously believed by any rational, just person, absent the military invasion and conquest, the Han people now have absolute rights to Tibet?

A second question occurs to me about this subject, what is the source of the belief of the Han that they have the right to claim Tibet? Is it from the CCP by way of your school text books or has some independent person researched the archival materials to publish a report to that effect?

HiloBob:

So many excuses back and forth about brainwashed Chinese...have some compassion...everything they get is censored heavily. Have you seen anything come out of the Chinese internet that goes against the party line?? It won't ever make it this far so naturally "the western media are biased" and the age old cultural tendency toward xenophobia makes these folks paranoid.

Sorry to sound condescending, but they need to divorce themselves from blind nationalism, be a little more self critical and try their hand at democracy and free speech, neither of which do they understand very well.

And the comments about them writing Chinese script are somewhat valid, but they have the right of free speech here to at least communicate among themselves. Ich kann Deutsch und hablo bien espanol. Ademas, puedo leer portugues, y que??

HiloBob:

To: why-Chinese-are-ugly (May 4-7:10 pm)

Usually,those who are inbred so many times their brains function on the level of reflex response a slime mold could beat across the street usually haven't figured out in life that as long as a car runs well and burns clean, the paint job isn't important. You are obviously no exception. Your desperate ignorance impresses nobody and your crude racism is sufficient to say I would not be alone in wishing you would dis-invite yourself from commentary until you can join the twentieth century much less this one.

Oh, more on point, how many of those "fen qing" Chinese were shot and/or incarcerated??

To PHOEPA:

Please understand the angry youths posting here, as they know some English, but do not fully appreciate Western etiquette.

They feel that the Western media has painted an unfair and unbalanced picture of them as a whole, and their emotions are in overdrive.

Remember, everything was fine the last few years, and suddenly this year, China gets a bad rap.

This is caused by external forces beyond China's control. Why would China want to jeopardize it's own reputation?

PHOEPA:

These Chinese who spew insults and abuse at the west are arrogant and ungrateful. Their government is genocidal, and they are stupid.

rymnd2008:

1. blue and white tracksuits manhandling demonstrators in Paris and London

Ans. they were there to protect the torch from being attacking by "professional protesters". If they were wrong, then please tell NYPD not to handle any suspects in down town new york. At least, tracksuits are not giving you 50 bullets on a black man's body.

2. spelling the end of a decade-long honeymoon

Ans. to my memory, western media has NEVER had a good word about China since DAY ONE. You call this honeymoon period. Are you divorced on honeymoon? or you are a dreamer. Wake up.

3. who started using Olympic as a chance to attack China?

Ans. yes you got it. the west.

In your simple head, you NEVER understand why young people and students are so bitterly offended by western media. You started to think they are brainwashed, they are Chinese secret agent in disguise... blah blah blah.....

The reason why the west lost young Chinese people, is your inadequacy to understand other people's way of life.

STOP lecturing us on how to live our own life as if you know everything, quite the opposite you know nothing about us.

Fact #1 600,000 civilians died since your invasion.

Fact #2 30,000,000 black slaves traded in America continent.

Fact #3 5,000,000 native American Indians were ethnically cleansed.

China has done NONE of these sorts. How could China be more ugly than USA. Go to read more books before you write. Inadequacy is you.

Go Beijing. Go Students. Go China.

rymnd2008:

Oh right!

When professional protesters attacking Chinese torcher on wheel chair, you silent.

When riotors killed innocent people in tibet, you silent.

When 600,000 Iraqis civilian died since US invasion, you silent.

When Chinese young people protests against western biased reporting and China bashing, you silent.

When US army rapes young japanese girl, you silent.

Who's ugly?

You are no better than jack-goons-and-thugs-carffety.

FenChin#38217392137218937:

Great another foreign devil plays a saint try to slain the "red dragon". The only different here is that he actually calls himself foreign devil. Chinese people has the rights to be angry. you can say we've been brain-washed, we are idiot and short-sighted. But as an American, you have no right to say anything to what the Chinese did, you say Chinese is oppressing Tibet? What about those poor Iraqis? Are you going to say anything to them? They are dying by the hundreds everyday. You said Koreans are angry toward the Chinese students pushed a few people around is bad for Chinese image? You must have forgotten what happened at world economic forum last year at Hong Kong where hundred of Koreans not only push, but hit and injured more than a dozen Chinese Hong Kong police. And don't get me started on the weapon export, just check the stats from U.N. and you can see who is actually shipping the MOST weapons around to kill innocent people around the WORLD. Just last month, U.S approved a LARGE weapon export to the Kosevo area to "help stability in the region". what a load of crap.

RJ Chapelton:

To those of you posting in Chinese:

This is an English blog. The author writes in English because that is the language The Washington Post uses. It is also the language the United States uses and seeing as how the author and his employer reside in America it makes sense to publish in English. Your choice to read and comment on this blog implies that you at least have a working knowledge of English. Resorting to Chinese to prove your point on this blog is puerile and tantamount to me finding a Chinese blog and ranting in English. What purpose does that serve? Only a slight minority of us reading these comments understand Chinese. We will gladly admit our ignorance, although I like to think it's fairly implicit since this is an English blog and our comments are written in English. I'm confident those of us who can speak Chinese would rather continue this argument on a Chinese blog.

实际上我看得懂中文,但不用在这里因为我觉得一些网友看不懂。
如果你要用你的母语请找一个合适的地方吧。
写中文在这里真是对牛弹琴。

My point? I've noticed that several Chinese users have encountered salient, logical and cohesive arguments and instead of addressing them or acknowledging their merit said Chinese users have escaped to the Chinese language to show their superiority. In doing so they have trotted out the ever predictable and trite Chinese language banner which reads: "We Chinese are bilingual. We are smarter than you. You Americans cannot grasp our complicated language."

I believe "Marsilius" made the tragically flawed argument that understanding a language is imperative to judging the actions of others:

"can't understand what i wrote above? then that's not my fault. i can understand your language, why you can't understand mine when you are so much intoxicated in judging China and Han Chinese?
Any Chinese who post here is bilingual. but only a tiny few, at most, of those who post here in support of the Ugly Chinese proposition read Chinese."

It's a sublime idea "Marsilius" and so I'll only ask this once: How is your Tibetan? Are you sure the Tibetans really like being governed by the Han?

Furthermore, I certainly hope no one thinks we need to understand German to know what the Nazis did was wrong. Certain actions transcend language and even deaf mutes understand what is morally right and wrong. So please, Chinese speakers, if someone makes a good point in this heated discussion don't resort to Chinese. If your English isn't good enough perhaps you shouldn't be picking fights here to begin with.

Remember: bilingualism doesn't make you right. Besides, if you really want to impress me try using Spanish. Ustedes chinos no pueden hablar español, verdad? Si, claro, entonces no entienden nosotros americanos!

Fowler:

"But ironically shut-up actually will be my preference. Personally I think Chinese should stay under the radar until we really catch the West."

Good luck on that!

Anonymous:

Pumfref is pumping BS from stinky ?ss again, publishing another non-sense article about China and have no knowledge what he was writting about, a long list shiit to feed those more stupid readers and his followers.

Wei:

When illegal immigrants poured into the street demanding citizenship in this country, what's wrong with the oversea Chinese flexing some of their muscles? The shock expressed by some Westerners including Pomfret just shows how arrogant the Westerners have become because of the political impotency of the Chinese in the West. But not any more. I am pretty sure the West felt the same way when the Muslims protested against the Danish cartoons, or when the Blacks wanted to vote in the South. When a minority try to challenge the status quo for their equal rights, zealots are unavoidable. But it will lead to change. Like it or not, when a US university plans to invite a Tibetan activist now, they would think twice because of its Chinese constituency. (Read the article in NY Times)Same thing will go with a city, the press and others doing business with China or with a large Chinese constituency. This is called self-censorship and I despise it. But if u play political correctness, it seems the Chinese should be included too, since now we are not going to be silenced any more.
We are really just playing by the rule of your game here. In the west, unless u speak out, no one is going to listen. Speak too loud may scare away some people and not be the smartest politically, but it beats keeping shut-up like in the past decades.

But ironically shut-up actually will be my preference. Personally I think Chinese should stay under the radar until we really catch the West.

Anonymous:

to why-chinese-are-ugly:

clearly, on the account of what you have repeatedly post here, you make yourself an advertisement par excellence for the immense poteniality of how ugly your whatever race may end up.

good. keep up.

terfmop chinese:

to why-chinese-are-ugly?: go find a girl friend and have some life.

terfmop chinese:

To Aurora:

You said that you are not Korean. Are you a Yankee or Southerner? I just would like to know who I am talking to.

terfmop chinese:

How should I believe you? This is too much entertainment now when you know you will get a reaction if you accuse them "commie robots".

Peter:

I'm serious.

terfmop chinese:

Come on, Peter. Stop poking for fun. You should have better things to do.

Peter:

I am beginning to believe, as an earlier poster suggested, that some great resentment fueled robot in the bowels of Zhongnanhai is at work here.

PrettyChinese:

To Peter:
you can sneer at, you can thump you nose at the reactions. Your contemptuous attitude will further reinforce the perception of arrogance and prejudice beyond help. Article like this and comment like yours certainly are not constructive to make the world a better place.

PrettyChinese:

To Comical:
in your biased mind, any chinese speak up against injustice other than in China is controlled by CCP. It is precisely because I believe in US value of all man create equal, there should be no discrimination based on race, nationality, etc., that I speak up against such blatant insinuation of all Chinese are somehow inferior class (which the word ugly implies and your reaction proves). It is precisely your prejudice that prevent you from looking seeing your own prejudice. It's precisely your prejudice that preventing you from believing Chinese scholars are capable of independent thinking unless their voice is not disapproving the west.

To CASTRO:
It's gracious that you felt sorry what the injustice of ancestors. It takes more courage to acknowledge mistakes than to bully one's way out. In this case, it's all the more touching as you yourself has nothing to do with the past. I am sure in your real life you win very loyal friends.

To T.S.:
your comment is very objective and insightful. I happen to think the west have some very bright minds. All human have flaws, all human have merits. The way to make a better world for all of us is not by insinuating one class or group of people with inferior characterization than the other. Constructive critiques, constructive dialogues are what's needed to move to a better future. Humanity as a whole should have more productive thing to worry about than escalating animosities to make the world a more miserable place for everyone. Global warming and other environment damage by excessive consumption may one day endanger the future of all species in the world. If westerners truely believe in justice for all, they need to start practice the same principle themselves. An Iraqi child's life lost should be thought of just as tragic as an american's. Fair-minded and intelligent people like you give all hopes. That's why efforts on both sides that making people hating each other shouldn't be condone. Such as this article.

Anonymous:

Tibet will never leave China.

Peter:

Pretty Chinese says of Comical: "I speak up against such blatant insinuation of all Chinese are somehow inferior class (which the word ugly implies and your reaction proves)."

Pretty Chinese, who here insinuated that "Chinese are somehow inferior class"? Honestly, the word "ugly", no matter how far you stretch it, does not have that connotation.

It seems that Comical is criticizing reactions like yours -- an off the hook meltdown over any phrase, word, or punctuation mark that could be construed negatively regarding China.

I think he has a point. Your reaction only supports Pomfret's article.


PrettyChinese:

To Comical:
in your biased mind, any chinese speak up against injustice other than in China is controlled by CCP. It is precisely because I believe in US value of all man create equal, there should be no discrimination based on race, nationality, etc., that I speak up against such blatant insinuation of all Chinese are somehow inferior class (which the word ugly implies and your reaction proves). It is precisely your prejudice that prevent you from looking seeing your own prejudice. It's precisely your prejudice that preventing you from believing Chinese scholars are capable of independent thinking unless their voice is not disapproving the west.

not so angry chinese:

To peace4all1:

I agree with you the 20 something "crazy youth" or fengqin will get mature in a few years. The 30 - 45 group Chinese will take over the provincial government in the next ten years. This group maybe angry for a few days, but they are too busy making career or running business to worry about Tibet or Olympics right now. As one of them, I must say that the recent events just provide further confirmation that the world is a dangerous place and you got be careful all the time. The west is neither the friend nor the enemy. They are customers that you need to cater to and competitors that you need to watch for.

Not so angry chinese:

To peace4all1:

I agree with you the 20 something "crazy youth" or fengqin will get mature in a few years. The 30 - 45 group Chinese will take over the provincial government in the next ten years. This group maybe angry for a few days, but they are too busy making career or running business to worry about Tibet or Olympics right now. As one of them, I must say that the recent events just provide further confirmation that the world is a dangerous place and you got be careful all the time. The west is neither the friend nor the enemy. They are customers that you need to cater to and competitors that you need to watch for.

PrettyChinese:

To why-chinese-are-ugly?:
all human being chinese or others are beautiful. It's soul that taken over by darkness like yours that's ugly beyond speech.

Aurora:

terfmop chinese wrote:

"Of course the niece does not like that. Since she is more mature and more skillful, she will try to poke the nephew from time and time, so that he will overreact and get scolded from the parent. Sound familiar?"

Yes, but sometimes younger siblings make their own mischief. As we saw in Seoul, Chinese students were not provoked by Americans. Rather, they were organized by their own student associations and supported by the Chinese government.

@ marsilius: I'M NOT KOREAN, which makes your tu quoque arguments even more irrelevant.


Anonymous:


the following poster should address the question to Mr.Pomfret, who I trust is still happily married to a Chinese lady reportedly from China's Yun Nan Province.
whether you want to post with decency or not is your personal choice. you are very much entitled to categorize youself as a debased being.
----------------
why-chinese-are-ugly?:
chinese are one of the most ugly people physically as we all realize this fact and even all 1.3 billions chinese have recognized as well!
On the face of a chinese I can very hardly to find any thing look beautifully as other people in the world!
It is sad to tell this truth! Chinese face is so flat and eyes are too small, nose is too ugly, skin is not good at all!
Well who on earth can afford to marry a chinese woman to end up with ugly offsprings?

May 4, 2008 7:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
--------------

United Nations:

Tibet is part of China.

Dalai Lama:

Tibet belongs to China.

so be it:

To Alex:

Now you are getting it!

You are very astute about traps in China, there are many problems that the chinese government need to solved! The ccp knows it, chinese people know it, and they are trying very hard to do just that. As when to introduce demacrocy? Its' already begin and it will be a slow process , not going to be a overnight sensation. As what kind of democracy system? Nobody realy knows the outcome but I trust China will find a system that fits her need.

China is not the country pratices " might is right", but is forced to build " might " to protect herself.

Hopefuly, no country will pratices the idea, but bad habit is difficult to rid off.

peace4all1:

The Ugly Chinese? No, it’s the Angry Chinese all Western Leaders should be aware of. Here I’m not talking about those twenty-something so called Chinese Youth who boycotted Carrefour. I’m talking about the current Chinese Elite group aged from 30 to 45 who have grown up through Tiananmen Square Incident and have an inclination to agree with Western media in the past. They are the ones who will control the future of China.

Due to those one-sided, twisted reporting on riots in Tibet and violent attacks on Olympic Torch by some Western Media plus the infamous comments by CNN’s Jack Cafferty, Western Media have completely lost their hard-earned creditability among that critical Chinese Elite class. If Western Leaders couldn’t learn from their past mistakes and continue this kind of propaganda war against China for the purpose of extracting commercial recessions from Chinese government, a life-time consequence, as warned by Singapore’s Premier Mr. Lee, will prevail upon us soon

Comical:

It's almost comical by now to see the canned dispatch of PRC online posters pounce on anything that might be even remotely construed as "critical of China," such as this piece. What the Party morons behind this operation could never realize -- as out of touch with reality and normal, free thinking as they are -- is just how ironic such posts end up being insofar as they affirm and demonstrate the very problem the author was articulating. They apparently have no idea (as Pomfret astutely points out) just how badly this is backfiring, and just keep sending out more online goons to post and bully and bark louder, more vehemently, and more moronically, making China and the Chinese nation look worse and worse. Pomfret's anlalysis is spot on. This looks like the beginning of the end, I dare say, so out of touch is the Beijing brass with the ways of the world... it's as if they've been reduced to the tantrums of a raging 10-year old.

CASTRO:

To Alex;

"Like all countries, China needs friends. By indulging in this orgy of jingoism, the Chinese people are making it likely that Vladimir Putin's Russia will be the only friend she finds. That pushes China down a blind alley, and pushes the rest of Asia away from China."

There is truth to this. Plus, what is most likely. Russia expanding through war with the EU or through Asia if China ever gets into armed conflict with the US/India? Invading into the EU would be a battle for every inch, as East Europe is very well trained do to its time under USSR. Plus Europe is much closer to their capital. One thing people may not understand, is that if Europe were ever threatened, the EU could easily raise an army of about 100 million. Remember in WWII, Germany alone had around 10 million soldiers throughout and populations are much larger now. The greatest power is the one know one talks about. Just because Europe looks week, does not mean it is. As some have said, "The west are animals" and they do have a lot of experience fighting and winning, they just see any reason to do so currently. Europe is afraid of its own strength currently, do to world wars.

someone wrote;
"If you talk about Ugly, then one of the truely ugly aspect of this entire episode is that so many Americans came out and protested against the so called Chinese oppression in Tibet. However, very few Americans have demonstrated againgst America's own atrocities in Iraq."

Not true at all, you have been either reading only recent events or not searching properly. Over the past 4 years, there have been many protests in the US, hundreads of protests, some with ten's of thousands. What do you mean, many Americans came out, only if you thing a couple of thousand at most, many. To correct you, between London, Paris and San Fran, there maybe a total of 8,000 protesters total, some of them went to all three events. Do you have any Idea how many people live within an hours drive of flight of those cities??? London, with drive about 25 million people, flight about 200 million. Paris about the same as london, if not more within flight. San fran, about 10 million drive and about 60 million by 1 hour flight. I think your prospective maybe bias on this one. The protesters were only a few thousand at each event and this is nothing.

Spectator:

If you talk about Ugly, then one of the truely ugly aspect of this entire episode is that so many Americans came out and protested against the so called Chinese oppression in Tibet.

However, very few Americans have demonstrated againgst America's own atrocities in Iraq.

Somehow, Americans find the time and energy when it comes to opposing other countries. When it comes to their own, they voice their anger only in Blogs and online comments.

ALEX:

Countries that practise this 'might is right' philosophy tend to have few friends. The USA has been losing friends to the extent they have followed it, and they used to be quite widely admired.

There are a lot of traps and dangers in China's current situation. The most obvious is the coming clash between modernizers and the party hierarchy over when and how to introduce democratic reforms.

Like all countries, China needs friends. By indulging in this orgy of jingoism, the Chinese people are making it likely that Vladimir Putin's Russia will be the only friend she finds. That pushes China down a blind alley, and pushes the rest of Asia away from China.

Way to shoot yourselves in the foot, Chinese.

You're kidding.:

"It is quite fun to see a westerner having such thought. The westerners just learnt the most basic of all behavioral tenets-do unto others what you want done unto you- no longer than a 60 years, which Chinese have known for thousands of years. Before the world wars, the westeners were no better than a group of animals. Animals, maybe they can organize their own group quite well, just like wolves, but they are still animals, no morallity to anyone else not belongs to their group. If they want food, want money, want resources, they just steal, rob whatever they want. The Chinese and other oriental people were just too civilized, they did not understand the logic of animals, that's the real reason they lost a lot of wars against the west animals in past hundreds of years."

I'll excuse your reading of western history but do you even know your own history? Where is the civilization in the cultural revolution? 30 million dead (I'm sure you'll blame it on the west though) What about China's conquest of Annam? The Taiping rebellion? The warring states period? The battles between the song and jin?

In other words, an objective look at your history shows it to be just the same as our history...competing groups vying through power by any means necessary. That is to say: the history of the world.

To trot out this racist animals lingo underscores the exact point Pomfret was making in the larger article.

terfmop chinese:

When I came to US, I was puzzled when people told me, to understand the American South; you need to understand the history of civil war first. I did not do so until last summer and it was an eye opener. American Civil War started in 1861 and finished in 1864, roughly at the same time period of the Opium war in China (1840). I guess the same holds true is to understand the Chinese, you need to understand the Chinese history since the Opium war. It is easy for an outsider to tell Chinese to forget the past and look forward, As a Chinese, I wish I could convince my compatriots to do so. But I understand that is hard to do. Probably as hard as is for the American Southerner to forget their defeat and not hating the Yankees. History does shape people’s thinking. We can’t just blame the communist doctrine (I agree that it did not help though).

so be it:

To Alex:

Might is right was not invented in China, rather it was imposed on China. Until today it still impose on China by USA.

Why USA try to protect a chinese provence-- Taiwan?!
Because USA has the almighty military might!

You really don't get it Alex. China and her people just want to go about their business. But the western powers lead by USA want to be the ruler!
This " do what I say or else " attitute doesn't go well with China. But to deter the threat from USA, China have no other choice but to use might against might.

Not very long ago, Ching Dynasty was forced to sign treaties gave up territories and wealth to the invaders. Why? because the empress wasn't dare to fight the invaders !!!! But today no nation dare to do that again to China, the reason: China is not backing down from any confrontation. Why the western powers take China seriously? Because China proved her will in Korea!!! THANK YOU CHAIRMAN MAO!!!

Pls don't tell me that those were history, that we are all civilized now.
Look around you, Why Iraq is occupied? Why Iran is threaten by USA but is not attacked( not because USA doesn't want to )? If you can be objective and find the answer, then you know what i am talking about.

As of Tibet, say whatever you want, but independence Tibet? dream on!

so be it:

To JED CLAMPETT:

" we hate each other because we are used like tools"

You got it JED!

Anywhere you go, majority of individule you meet are nice ( of cause there alway some bad ones ), sincere and friendly, be it white, black, yellow... whatever color. It it the government and media the creat the gap between people. the way they do it is to use your kindness.

You got it.

CASTRO:

Hi Jengis:

Your dire prediction is very doubtful. Today's issues are not that much worse than the "Savings and Loans" issues of the past, were hundred of banks fell. The economy is just much bigger, so the numbers seem much harder to deal with. This has just created an opportunity for the rich to take over more real estate, more company ownership, etc... The issue today is only about 500 billion or so, with a 13.5 trillion dollar economy it will pass in a couple of years, people will learn a lesson, but foreget in 20 years. This type of stuff has happened before several times. Remember it is only the lower class and some of the middle class that has been damaged, like always. The 1000 billionairres and 250,000 millionairres in the US will bairly feel it and have enough money to bail out the US when the bond yields are worth it. Why do the bond yeild keep going down? Because there are still a lot of buyers, when the buyers go away, the yeilds will go up and prices go down, other buyers will step in. The EU and Japan will bail out the US, if things become tough, seeing as they are the worlds main consumers, about 25% of the worlds economy, plus they are those countries muscle. Lot's of Chinesse are angry with the bias and lying west media, we call it sensationalism. If they make China look very bad, what makes you think they are not making the "financial" crises look 10 times worse then it is? Just like 911, which gave the West an excuse to go into Iraq, the Olympic's gives an opportunity to critisize China, the financial crises give the US reason to change the way US spends its money. Create more nationalism, create more buy US movement, bring things back, reduce trade with rising countries, make tax cuts perminant, etc....... Failure to know history and culture is not an exclusively Western failing. Remember the Tech crises 8 years ago, the oil crises in the 70's. Black October in 1987, Recession in 1993, Interest rates were over 20% in the early 80's in the US and Canada vs less than 4% today. If things were trully callapsing, why are interest rates going down. Not because the US is can lower its rates and print money, because if that were true, the US dollar would be like the german mark in the 20's, Chinese Yaun in the 50's and 60's, the Zimbobway dollar today. Hyper inflation with huge devaluations of currency. Remember, US private and public pensions are estimated to be close to 15 Trillion, US top 2% wealth is estimated at more. US debt is actually only about 60% of GDP, many other countries have much, much higher. China's though his hovering arouund 35% last time it was reported to the IMF, by China.

Jengis:

The implosion of USA is already underway. USA is technically bankrupt. The government finance their operation by borrowing money from China, Japan, Korea, Middle East etc, and use the money to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, and set up puppet state in those countries. But there is totally no meaning to ordinary US citizen, that have to live with foreclosure, rotting public transport (just compare the US subway with those in HongKong or Singapore, not to mention Shanghai or Tokyo). US citizen spend on money they don't have as well, that caused the subprime crisis. That in turn exposed the American financial institution, which are actually all technically bankcrupt as well. What the Feds do now is just try to hold off the bankcrupcy till after the election and no matter which President is elected, the big implosion is coming. I have a feeling that Obama is going to get elected, so that the white can blame it all on the incompetent of black president.
Hurricane Katrina fully expose a USA that looking like a King Kong on the outside, but inside has shrink to just a small monkey. It is basically a monkey wearing a King Kong suite. When that implosion really hit, there will be riot in every American cities and all hell broke loose. The smartest American already know it is coming, such as Jim Rogers, migrate to Singapore. Similar to all previous global empire, 911 mark the beginning of the end of USA. The fall is going to be long, painful and may be bloody.

To "FREE Hawaii":

Go home to your mother.

terfmop chinese:

By the way, almost all the Chinese angry youth are only-child. Maybe that is why. They never have experienced sibling rivalry.

FREE Hawaii:

Hawaii annexed by US illegal. Hawaii Queen was forced to surrender with US gun on her head. US please get out of Hawaii. FREE Hawaii. Stop the genocide of Aborigin of Hawaii by US. I hope China can send her PLA to liberate us. Sign by Hawaii Republic Army.

terfmop chinese:

I have a niece and a nephew. The niece is older. Like all the first born, she used to get all the attentions. After the nephew is born, the nephew is getting all the attentions now. Of course the niece does not like that. Since she is more mature and more skillful, she will try to poke the nephew from time and time, so that he will overreact and get scolded from the parent. Sound familiar? I do watch this post with some amusement. But one thing to remember, once the siblings getting older into the adulthood, they would become the best friends.

Americans and Chinese don't really hate each other. That is just my what I know from my experience.

To RKS:

RKS said
'I have lived in China for a year and I am still shocked on a daily basis by their incredibly rude and mannerless behavior'

RKS, i think there are some holes in your story.

Unless u were living during the Cultural Revolution, it would be very unusual for Chinese who have been trying to improve their manners to welcome Olympics visitors, to be rude all year long, especially to a foreigner.

BRAMBLES:

@Raoul:

Perchance you do wonder whether there's sth wrong with the "Mainland Chinese culture" that the "Chinese People" overact to "any outside criticism", well, wait till the next wave of media hypes regarding "China".

I dont need to garanttee you anything. There surely will be more inccidents before and during the Olympics. And, pls, prepare to be surprised how the "Chinese People" react to "outside criticism" then.

Three is the charm, maybe. But once the "Chinese People" adjust themselves to this kind of newly-found attention from the world, you'd see their true face. They'd most probably jest at CNN's GOONs comments and then mind their own business. We are getting more than enough bad press in our own country. Simple as that.

Fact is, more often I hate the inertia of my people than what you perceive in them as "overaction" or "hyper-nationalistic emotions". That's simply not "Chinese".

This is your first contact with my people. Be not surprised - I can advise but it's destined to be futile.

Again, let me assure you, your type of comments/opinions are more than welcome. People here are not all stupid.

TO the west... welcome to the civilized the world:

RKS said
'Their "shame factor" is nothing less than pathological. This is a country that has no religion, so it has no sense of morality or ethics taught.'


It is quite fun to see a westerner having such thought. The westerners just learnt the most basic of all behavioral tenets-do unto others what you want done unto you- no longer than a 60 years, which Chinese have known for thousands of years. Before the world wars, the westeners were no better than a group of animals. Animals, maybe they can organize their own group quite well, just like wolves, but they are still animals, no morallity to anyone else not belongs to their group. If they want food, want money, want resources, they just steal, rob whatever they want. The Chinese and other oriental people were just too civilized, they did not understand the logic of animals, that's the real reason they lost a lot of wars against the west animals in past hundreds of years. Now, the west animals seem to finally get a sense of how to be human being, and then start to show off the knowledge they just learnt, just like kids showing off the new toys. It is a good sign, though it is quite laughable that they are even trying to show off their new knowledge to someone who already knows this knowledge for thousands of years.

ALEX:

In the Chinese view of 'jungle law', which I have heard from so many Chinese, and now from some here, might is always right.

In the short run, that's true. However, the problem with this reductive faith in the power of brute force which today's Chinese have inherited from the Chairman 'power flows from the barrel of a gun' Mao and the incredibly brutal and murderous regime he set up, which continues to this day, is that it lacks an awareness of the many other complex factors at work in history.

Chinese love to quote the case of the Native Americans. To them, the Tibetans are like the Sioux or Cherokee, marginal people doomed to die out before the onrush of the victorious Han. It gives them that frontier rush. In their minds the Red Guards are home on the range, cooking up noodles on a log fire, building a new China among the evil Tibetan barbarians.

Actually, though, Tibet bears more similarities to countries that were long occupied by Russia and the Soviet Union, like Poland. It has a very long and proud national history and a cohesive national consciousness which the Chinese government has been unable to stamp out despite sixty years of repression so unimaginably brutal that most of us who live in free countries cannot begin to conceive of it.

Imagine being followed everywhere, every day of your life, by informers, threatened with torture and execution for following your deepest religious beliefs, required to make regular, public, drawn-out denunciations of your culture and your religion -- and you have some idea of the crimes of the Chinese in Tibet.

And yet, the Tibetans, as they showed last month, have not given in. They are still standing up to show the world - "We are not Chinese. We are Tibetan. And we will remain so. This Communist Chinese state will not always be here, but we will be."

RKS:

... The Chinese aren't difficult to understand, they are just difficult to live with. Their "shame factor" is nothing less than pathological. This is a country that has no religion, so it has no sense of morality or ethics taught . Even the most basic of all behavioral tenets-do unto others what you want done unto you-is lacking. This culture doesn't promote charity at home or abroad. Chinese don't comprehend generosity and the idea of "giving without expectation to receive".

You really are right on target. I have lived in China for a year and I am still shocked on a daily basis by their incredibly rude and mannerless behavior, their total lack of courtesy, their blatant racism, and worst of all, their complete inability to self reflect. I have travelled all over and a more disagreeable group of people you will not find anywhere. This month is just the first time that the world is being exposed to it.

The more exposure to China the world gets, the less the world will like China.

BRAMBLES:

Things will change for the better.

Well, these days, everyone's "SOFT POWER" is on the wane, except mabe for some of the EU countries who stayed away from recent international controversies.

This is called globalization I think. Some people have better experience with the Chinese. Some fared terribly. Some just let go their imagination. But most of the west have only begun to realize, in a truly concious level that China is HERE. The same is with those so called "Chinese Nationalists". It's their first real encounter with the west and so far the only thing they/we were doing is searching in the dictionary for words to express them/ourselves.

Ooops we bumped into each other.

It's nothing new I think. If people have know China as well as they knew Japan 20 years ago, Mr. Pomfret, you wouldnt be writing this blog.

By and by, you'd see that people everywhere are not that different. The trend is inevitable. We are bound to make the history together. Let's not make it a bleak one.

Only thing we can do is to get along, learn to deal with the awkardness that comes with having to associate with people different from us. More communication, with great openess on either side, is the only solution.

I m hopeful.

I solute the people, from the US, EU or everywhere else who would stop at nothing to express their compassion and anger at the first sighting of perceived injustice, unfairness and trespessing on individual rights. It's this kind of passion built in people like you that makes your countries great ones.

Well, if there's a chance, you might see that there are such people in my country, China as well. And indeed there are so many of them, just like you.

Let's reason together, with the faculty that we apparently all share, and sometimes commonly err by ignoring to use. Let's reason together.

I m hopeful of a better world, before global warming and exhaustion of natural resources get to us all first, before the mutual ignorance/rejection and perhaps hatred get us, that is.

Oh, as for those from the west who can not be reasoned with, since the only logic you people understand is the LOGIC OF POWER, so be it. You aint see nothing yet. This is a game you might not win. On OUR side, there are no less in number of YOUR CALIBRE. If you wanna play with them, use your time and strength well. That can be done too. It's history, partly already in the books.

To CASTRO:

You are very gracious to apologize, but we should acknowledge what happened in the past, but should not inherit the guilt of our forefathers.

Dwelling on the past and holding long grudges, will not improve relations.

Raoul's barber:

oops, guess that hurt.

marsilius:

Raoul's barber:
Marsilius,

Considering I never mentioned -- and don't particularly care about -- the Tibet issue, I would say that your unexplained tirade (in both Chinese and English) on that issue does not particularly qualify you intellectually for anything other than a job in your local fast food joint.

I'll have fries with that. Thanks.

May 4, 2008 2:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments

-----------
i think given that you don't even have tibet in mind in posting what you say, then you'd better remain silent on what i responded with.

surely it's not because you have no idea that the controversy is centered on tibet; your reply only achieves an expose of what a poverty is your logic and what a bigot you are. i feel embarrassed for you. you have no idea how to carry on a debate, even though, i am writing in english for your benefit not mine.

写这种答复,不怕人看不起你么? 如果不是为了藏独的事,我们至于在这里写贴子么?至于有什么RELAY的闹剧么?还居然好意思说他压根没想过TIBET,居然好意思说我的回答文不对题.保持沉默也就罢了,写出这种答复,真够厚脸皮的.

不过这也挺好,反面教材,让大家看看什么叫厚脸皮,什么叫BIGOT,不怕丢脸就继续吧.

CASTRO:

To hopeful thinking:

Communism is good on paper, but not in practice. You are right. Human nature "greed" and "power" get in the way, then so does special interests. Just like if we concentrated on on sickness at a time, we probably would have cured most by now. But there are to many issues and resources are spread to thin, and it is getting worse. I am not an idealist, I just like finding like hearted people and working with them. People with poison in their hearts and venom in their words are not people I like having around me. Good in infectious, but Evil spreads faster. Unfortunatly people are suspecious of good, to many people have un pure motives and selfishness.


To T.S and all chinese;

From someone in the west, I am sorry for the harm Western powers brought upon your people. They saw an opportunity to profit and disregarded all morality and violated all human good. For contect, I am Portuguese. We were considered on of the colonial powers, but tend to get a lot less hate, if any as there were far worse around us. My understanding of our peoples shared history is through history of Macau and Formosa (Tiwan). What I was taught is that my peole were the ones who found the two major sea routes to asia, Cape of good hope and Mageallens pass, though Magellan sailed for Spain, he was Portuguese. Macau from my understanding was a gift from the Chinese emperor for assistance provided to eliminate sea pirate problems and the only Violent confrontation between us was around 50 years after the gift when some of the locals tried to take it back. But the relationship had beed fairly good for over 500 years. My poeple have worked hard to correct our past wrong doing and maybe that is why we are not "hated" We worked to get East Timor free from Indonisia, yet we should not have left so fast, we are working in Angola and Mozambique to help them get out of the 25 year civil war, that we tried to avoid when we left. We returned a lot back to India during out time in Goa. I guess because the bases of our Empire were based mainly on Exploration, Trade, and religion we did not do as much damage as the others, it still does not excuse the behaviour. All we can do is remember. repent, ask for forgiveness, and work to mend the past for a better future. I am sorry for whatever wrongs my people did and if it is possible, for what the West has done to CHina, Africa, South and North America, etc.... My people may have been worse, if we had the numbers like England, France, Spain, US, etc.. but we will never know.

Sorry for the length,
From a sorry Westerner

The Cure:

Marsilious,

1. you need a new pseudonym
2. you are not getting paid enough for your inspired comments; demand a raise.

Raoul's barber:

Marsilius,

Considering I never mentioned -- and don't particularly care about -- the Tibet issue, I would say that your unexplained tirade (in both Chinese and English) on that issue does not particularly qualify you intellectually for anything other than a job in your local fast food joint.

I'll have fries with that. Thanks.

marsilius:

to aurora:

i think your post need to be read by fellow posters here by putting it into some perspective. let's don't beat about the bush. koreans in seoul rally in support of "free tibet" and of all those implied or pronounced messages of "han chinese flooding tibet and cultural genocide blablabla", there's no way this can be read by Chinese inside China and those living Seoul as not provocative. probably even worse than reading any such messages from london paris san fransico. why? koreans have built up a formidable residential presence in beijing and in shangdong province etc. if chinese adopt your logic, then in beiing your fellow countrymen are flooding the northeastern area of its capital. koreans there are treated with privileges- by this government you deplore so much and many chinese too deplore so much but for very different reasons. your fellow countryman, just like these tibetan exiles, should be thankful enough for a government in beijing as such, which heeds to foreign interests a lot lot more than the interest of its own citizens. koreans do not run a good reputation in china for their commercial practice, the way they treat workers.

ever read report of how the korean manager discipline the staff by forcing them to kneel down on the floor for hours?

ever read report of recent massive over-night fleeing of korean business-owners in shangdong province, leaving huge debt to be paid to their employees and tax money to be paid?

ever read what happened last month in guangzhou about a chinese girl died mysteriously mid-night after spending with three korean men in the same room? ever saw that photo of how the girl's near naked body hanging mid-air outside that residential building? have any belief in the explanation by the three koreans the girl jumped out of the window drunkenly and they can't stop her?

ever thought of your atheletes very rudely put up a banner stating the changbai mountain not chinese territory but korean territory during the games held in China last year?

ever remember how your korean farmers/peasants protested violently in hong kong a few years ago during a wto related conference and how they beat hong kong police?-- oh, sorry, i understand perhaps deep down you don't take hong kong police as chinese.

frankly, stop beating up the bush. in your country there are quite some who want to divide china or to set china in chaos so that you could expand into china's north-eastern provinces.

under the disguise of humanitarian concern is indeed a greed for territory.

koreans from rok are being treated in china extraordinarily, both in investment and in daily life.

without even tracing the history back to the early 20th century- when your country is being trumped under japanese colonialism, china offered the facilities for your exile patriotic government to run in shanghai.


terfmop chinese:

To Aurora: I am a Chinese. I tend to believe your story. I think our premier should have apologized to the Korean people. Those unruly guests got off lightly if they were just sent back to China.

Aurora:

Sarah asked:

First, will you please state the number of pro-China supporters that were present at the relay events around the world, including pro-china rallies in non-relay locations? Then can you state the number of violent acts by these supporters? Can you give us the percentage of the Chinese supporters that were actually violent?

I shall be glad to answer that question with regard to the torch relay in Seoul. There were about 10,000 Chinese students and residents attending the relay. Twice a single individual tried to grab the torch. Otherwise, protests were confined to the sidelines, and protestors did not attempt to interrupt the relay. Nevertheless, several clashes erupted between Chinese students and human rights demonstrators. In one big incident, a group of about 20 protestors was demonstrating across the street from Olympic Park, where thousands of Chinese had gathered. A large group of at least 150 saw the North Korean human rights demonstrators and crossed the street to confront them. The Korean police formed a line around the human rights demonstrators to protect them from the Chinese students, some of whom foolishly wore Pusan Chinese Student Association t-shirts to identify themselves. They threw numerous objects at the group and later, attacked a lone man on a bicycle, kicking him several times.

Sadly, Chinese students are spreading false stories about how the Koreans lied about having things thrown at them. Chinese websites show photos that claim to prove that the North Korean human rights demonstrators brought a stone and a tool to the rally and lied about Chinese students throwing them. In fact, the photos of Korean men holding the stone and the tool, which Chinese claim were taken before the rally, were taken afterwards. Looking at the photos on Chinese websites, one can see clearly a long silver object in the picture. It's called a microphone. The man in the PLA uniform holding the tool is obviously answering reporters' questions.

Chinese students also lied about the Korean man on the bicycle hitting a Chinese student with the bicycle and injuring his head. To prove this, they show a photo of the Korean man holding the bicycle over his head and facing a Chinese student and a photo of a Chinese student holding tissues to his bleeding head. However, the man facing the bicycler and the man holding tissues are not the same. The man holding tissues has longer hair. Also, isn't it interesting that we can see lots of pictures of Chinese students kicking the Korean man on the bicycle but not a single picture of the man actually hitting anyone with that bicycle. To the contrary, one can see plainly from the collection of pictures circulating on Chinese websites that the Korean man was surrounded by Chinese students, who at one point tried to grab the bicycle. Overhead shots of the scene show that the Korean protestors were outnumbered about 50 to 1.

Youtube has videos of a mob of Chinese students beating a pro-Tibet protestor in the lobby of a hotel.

The actual percentage of Chinese acting violently is small, but the number of young Chinese who think it's great that their countrymen and women beat up non-violent "zd" and "fanhuafenzi" in Seoul is large. If I could leave links to prove my assertion, I would.

hopeful thinking:

To ASIAN:

You know a lot of history, and I am not here to debat about history.

The jungle law still apply today as it did a thousand years ago, so disregard history and make a asunmption that's to your favor: let's asumme that China took Tibet after 1949, so what? what can you do about it? America took lands from native indian, from mexico and from hawaiian, so what? what can you do about it?

you can protest, scream and curse and... whatever you can think of, what good it does?

There were many protests against USA , EU and now is China's turn, protests did not alter USA and EU change the way they go about business, and will not change China either.

Hopefully governments can bo more cooperative before we all go gown to road of self destruction!

hopeful thinking:

to castro:

your latest post sounds comunism.
"if we all work together, we can all get what we want, as long as we are not to greedy", noble concept, wishful thinking but not working out.

what i was taught in school in china, the idea of communism is: every one coutribute to the society to the best of their ability and takes what they need.

sounds like what you propose. except the nature behavior of human being is every bit against it .

The jungle law applys to mankind since the very begining, " the stronger suvived" still apply. sadly but is the fact.

Can we, the so called civilized human being , live together and make this planet a better place?
I don't think we could. But we must, or we will end up destroy each other. Hopefully the developed nations ( China is not fully develop yet, but should share her part ) can keep a clear vision in the big picture, rescue us from the JUDGEMAN DAY.

T.S:

Thanks for the correction regarding the authorships of The Quiet American and The Ugly American. In my senility I put Chang's Hat on Li's Head (Zhong Gwen Li Dai)

Now, it is indeed open season on the Chinese. For the posters who trace their origin to that time-honored ancient land as I do, rest assured, you and your people and your country are NOT being hated as some of the posts would like you to believe. At the UN (192 member states), the members from the 3rd world which constitutes almost 2/3 of the body, China and the Chinese are held in respect and affection. The Chinese are helping the Africans build roads, hospitals and basic infrastructure even as we speak (in cyberspace). You see, even during our expansionist periods (like the Tang and Han dynasties) we Chinese are NOT colonialists like the Western powers, who after the revolts of the natives, suddenly had attacks of conscience and
turned great "humanitarians". But then, of course, to the First World, a rogue gallery of former colonialists and exploiters, the third world hardly counts. Since the Industrial Revolution, this First World has been operating with blinders of hubris and self-righteousness ( We Are the Wrold and Masters of the Universe). Thus, any johnny-coming-lately who might remotely threaten their secured position of supremacy would be subjected to a grueling process of demonization.

OK, let's take a look at the great humanitarians who are hell-bent on lecturing the Chinese on the art of governing, human rights, tolerance and democracy, ad nauseam. Do you really, really believe that the Tibet issue is ONLY a matter of human rights? Then I have a Brooklyn bridge to sell to you. In 188os and 1902-04, the Brits invaded twice (from their then colony India)into Tibet. Monasteies were demolished, trees were uprooted for firewood, more than 1400 tibetan soldiers were killed (in the 1904 invasion)and the Potala Palace was used as their headquarters. Bullet holes and ruins were still on display at the Nalnying monastery in Gyangze and other monasteries in Kangmar county. Meanwhile, the Central Government of the Qing dynasty was rotten-to-the -core and on its death bed. (In 1911 it was dealt a death blow by Dr. Sun Yet-sun's KMT party and the Republic was born).
The Brits had their eyes set on Nepal, Sikkim and Bhutan and Tibet. India is not enough to whet the Empire's appetite. Ah, the White Man's Burden (R. Kipling)! The world had too many savages to be civilized, too many lands to be colonialized ! What can an Empire do except to oblige with guns and cannons ? After two OPIUM WARs against China from 1839 to 1842, the Brits wanted to change its image from international DRUG TRAFFICKERS to the benevolent colonizer. Yes, the Brits were the first DRUG DEALERS AND TRAFFICKERS in the history of the modern world. The products were grown and processed in their then colony India. When the Canton governor Lin Zexu refused the merchandise, the Brits started wars against China. Hong Kong was ceded to the Empire among other demands, until its return to its rightful owner in 1997.
So, you still wonder why the Brits were among the first great humanitarians to jump on the bandwagon to shout "free Tibet!" When in doubt, look back into history. "The sun already set" Empire's design on tibet has not been exactly fulfilled since 1904.

OK, let's look at the other players in this international cabal "to get China". The "usual suspects" in this group are the same actors in the 1900 "8 countries united invasion"of China. That was the result of the Boxers'Rebelion during which western churches were burned, missionaries were attacked by cult followers hell-bent on saving China from foreign devils. A defeated Qing gave in and the 8 foreign powers carved up major cities as their sphere of influence and mapped out areas as concessions where "Chinese and dogs are not allowed." Who are the infamous eight ? UK, France, Germany,US, Japan, Russia, Italy, Austria. Does it surprise you to see the AXIS of EVIL of WWII (Japan, Germany, Italy) among this gallery of rogues ? You see, aggression is an acquired taste, once you got it, is is hard to resist.
Do you still wonder why Chinese in their collective memories occasionally have nightmares about those darkened nights of history ?

But then in the game of geopolitics, former enemies can become friends, former friends become foes. Since 1945, the grandest savior of humanity has been the US. According to the well-known writer Gore Vidal this Savior has had launched, financed, or fought by proxy 200 wars, big or small. Vidal's little book PERPETUAL WAR FOR PERPETUAL PEACE is well documented and well researched, with time, places and names of operation provided. This Saviour also napalmed, agent-oranged,shock-and-awed (l.l6 million Iraqis were killed before they ever saw salvation, according to John Hopkins Univ. study), and Gitmoed in cake-walking democracy and freedom for the downtrodden and oppressed. Oh, are you surprised that the US has set its eyes on Tibet since l950s and financed DL Inc.'s escape in 1959 and its overseas operation ? One poster defended the intimate relation between DL and CIA and said that much of the funding was provided by NGOs. Are they foundations and other orgs with words such as Freedom, Democracy in their names? Are they really private ngos or just grouops with SIX DEGREES OF SEPREATION connecting them all to the same source? Following the money trail and see where it leads.

Having said all the above, I still believe the following:
1. we look back in history not to nurse old grudges, but to see and understand clearly the complexities of current events ,
2. human beings inspite of their differences in race, religion and ideological beliefs, are basically good and decent and desire peace.
3. though the US has made many lethal mistakes in its foreign policies, its positive role in WWII saved the world from global holocaust for which a grateful world would never forget.
4. The US Constitution is still so far the best political document in the history of civilization,
5.governments may differ and argue and fight, the people should dialogue, communicate and shake hands,
6. a rising China, emerging from the past 150 years of foreign invasions, civil war, poverty, political campaigns( self-imposed) and misrule, is focusing on feeding and healing its 1.3 billion bodies and souls.Though the pace is slow, it is trying,
7. Democracy is a learning and practicing process,which each society will adapt at its own pace and with its own methodlogy. It has to be home-grown. Democracy imposed from outside will not take roots and remain fragile. Examples are plenty.
8. hot-headed nationalism is dangerous and self-defeating. The youth of China should know that the love of one's own people and country is only a prelude to the greater love of humanity as a whole. The great teacher Confucius said it well 2500 years ago : within the four seas, we are all brothers (and sisters too)!

Asian:

To Sarah

Thank you for giving me a chance to tell the truth.

You are right, "天下大勢 分久必合 合久必分 from 三國演義 means that Empires long divided will be united and Empires long united will be divided."
And as you know, 三國演義 are mainly about the last period of HAN(漢) dynasty and the war of Three Kingdoms(魏,蜀,吳) divided from HAN dynasty.
So I think that 三國演義's FIRST saying is mainly about the division of Han dynasty.
I quoted that saying because PRC could face the last period of Han dynasty if Chinese(Han people) can solve their biggist problem "CCP(esp. Hu Jintao and his followers(tens of millions of young Tuan Pai)" for themself.

During the last period of Han dynasty, peasants' unrest had occurred continually just as Tibetan's unrest has occurred continually since 1949's invasion. And many intellectuals at that time appealed against peasants' unrest trying to suppress the unrest.

If Chinese think of themselves as patriots and want to solve 200 million ethnic minorities' problems(including Tibetan), Don't blame others(tibetan and people of the world) any more, but blame treacherous subjects(Hu Jintao and his followers).

Wikipedia says :
The Communist Youth League of China (中国共产主义青年团, abbr. 共青团) is a youth movement of the People's Republic of China for youth between the ages of fourteen and twenty-eight, run by Communist Party of China.
Under current leadership of Chinese President, who was also a leading figure in this League, key government positions at both central and provincial levels are more likely to be filled by the League's members and former cadres, known as tuanpai. Members of this League are particularly loyal to the CHINESE Communist Party.

At last, if Chinese really think that tibetans are also people of PRC, Say "I love Tebatan people" instead of "I love Tibet (territory)".

CASTRO:

Hi,

"This is a cold cruel world. Being rich and strong can give me the chance to be yourself, and then nobody can exploit you. After you get rich and strong, you may think about something else ...or try something to help other people. Before that? just help yourself first."

Agreed. It can and often is a cold cruel world, but it can also be loving, warm, and beutiful. Money can free you, to be yourself, agreed. But it can also trap you into being what others or you made seeking that wealth. Most rich people are trapped, a slavery of there own success. They ignore family, lose time, become cold and empty inside. It becomes hard to turn back once you become rich, because of people's expectations or because you changed and no longer recognize yourself. A lot of people never go back to kindness or helping other's. By helping others you can help yourself. You can learn, you can gain true friends and favours. You can see real oportunities and feel yourself grow and become strong. In my past I lived in anger and revenge, sought wealth and ignored others. I was wrong. When I started working with others, helping them to get to there goals, I found that I became rich, both inside and in money. I own three homes and one cottage in Canada, a home and condo in Portugal, and a condo in Brazil. I own three businesses, one construction/development (property development), another holds bakeries, and the last involved in Investment Management/Accounting. My partners and I have over 50 employees and all gained through patients, hard work and understanding that if you understand others and help others obtain their goals, they will help you. If we all work together, we can all get what we want, as long as we are not to greedy.

PrettyChinese:

Raoul's barber:
"..was based primarily on Hitler's rhetoric regarding Germany's vicitmhood.."

Any fear mongering that caters to the lowest instinct of human is not right. If you read my comments carefully, I did say I don't condone some of the fear mongering by fenqings either. Didn't I? Rhetoric like that from both sides doesn't make the world a better place for you and me. It helps to make a more ugly, hateful, and dangerous place. When you belittle the victimization of Chinese by the west and by the Japanese. You are only showing lack of capacity for understanding and sympathy. Then you turns around and accused Chinese turn nationalistic. What else can they do? They now learn the lesson that nobody will defend your right unless they themselves strong enough to defend it. If you want a more peaceful and friendly world, you don't go about bad mouthing people without least bit of understanding and sympathy.

Talking about victimhood, wasn't US beating the drumbeat of China threat louder and louder everyday? Didn't politicians make the working class feel victimized by telling them Chinese and other countries took away their jobs with low cost labors and unfair competition? Few american knows that over 50% of profit in a product made in China is reaped by stores like Walmart, other 30 some percent pay to patents or brand loyalties of american or western companies, only less than 10% of profit earned by Chinese factories and even much less by the labors themselves who sweat the most. You don't hear that in this country. What you hear is continue bad mouthing of China as convinient scapegoat for many of the troubles here domestically, to create a sense of victimhood among the othewise fair minded americans.

Anonymous:

"Ugly" as a word, is no big deal in English, unless it translates to something worst in Mandarin.

To marsilius and sarah:


'i think you wrong her. that's exactly what she quoted from the post of "asian", if you bother to check that original post for where this factual mistake originated.'

I apology to you, sarah.

TO CASTRO:

This is a cold cruel world. Being rich and strong can give me the chance to be yourself, and then nobody can exploit you. After you get rich and strong, you may think about something else ...or try something to help other people. Before that? just help yourself first.

CASTRO:

Several have wrote the following:

"Just do something get yourself strong and rich."

Sad retoric. Strong, rich, race, destiny, etc. Being rich is not a goal, it is an obcesion many waiste their lives obtaining. What is rich without real purpose? Strong, how do you define that? How do you use it? "Power and Wealth, corrupts absolutely." It makes you empty in your heart and evil in your actions. It seperates you from others and makes many your enemy. People should work on inner strength and improvement of themselves and those around them. That way you will be wealthy in terms beyond having paper with ink on it, that has made us slaves and savages.

marsilius:

To sarah::
You are disgusting insane

the 合久必分分久比合 is from 三国演义, a novel ...

not 三国志, a history records ...

Don't be fooled by computer games or japanese cartoon.

May 3, 2008 9:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments

-------------
i think you wrong her. that's exactly what she quoted from the post of "asian", if you bother to check that original post for where this factual mistake originated.

To sarah::

You are disgusting insane

the 合久必分分久比合 is from 三国演义, a novel ...

not 三国志, a history records ...

Don't be fooled by computer games or japanese cartoon.

PrettyChinese:

Raoul,
Victimization and prejudice are two different matters. Chinese don't feel weak because we were ever victimized. We are more determined to be stronger. If you don't understand that, you wasted your time in China. It's you lack of capacity for understanding and sympathy that's pathetic. In your high minded arrogance you tried to defend prejudice by artfully turned that into attack of the victims. May god save your soul.

Prejudice has nothing to do with victimization. Has nothing to do with when victimization starts/stops. Prejudice has been with human since the begining as part of our sin.

In old England, there are prejudice between the classes as Jane Austin depicted so well. Slavery era has long gone. Then why african american are still insulted by the words "Niger, Negro". Sure they may use it themselves just like Chinese may call each other ugly Chinese. A word by itself is just a word. It's the meaning attached to it when that word is delivered that does the damage. It delivers discrimination/prejudice when it comes from somebody holds contempt. People are not stupid, they can tell, your relentless attacks just proves more of the arrogance and contempt.

I don't doubt you may even have Chinese friends. But that doesn't make it right for you to defend prejudice, even if you yourself doesn't hold prejudice. Prejudice and discrimination is what humanity would elevate above, not fall for. Prejudice/discrimination against any group of people collectively based on acts of few individuals in that group is a sin that the highly civilized west should detest rather than behold. Do we have this common understanding?

sarah:

Again, I ask that people tell the truth (aren't you all telling the Chinese government and the UGLY chinese people to do the same?)

To 'ASIAN'
'Records of Three Kingdoms(三國志, a famous novel of China) says at first "it is obvious that even long-standing empire will be separated in the long run(天下大勢 分久必合 合久必分)".'

Why do you fail to translate the entire sentence of "天下大勢 分久必合 合久必分"? The middle part says, "empires long divided will be united". The whole phrase says, "the world/universe is very big, empires long divided will be united and empires long united will be divided." The phrase means that the world (in a political sense) goes in endless cycles of division and unity, just like moon waning and waxing.

Please do not LIE to people who can not read Chinese and pretend you're an expert. Either you have a very bad understanding of Chinese, or you are purposefully trying to distort the truth. And putting Chinese characters in your post do not make you an expert in Chinese history or philosophy. You can't even properly translate the common saying of "天下大勢 分久必合 合久必分" from 'Records of Three Kingdoms(三國志)'.


Anonymous:

Of course Mr Pomfret used "Ugly" metaphorically, since he married a pretty Chinese. No need to overreact.

marsilius:

Raoul's barber:
PrettyChinese says about negative comments about China: "That kind of herd mentality provoked by propaganda or by dishonest media is exactly the same as what Hilter successfully summoned out of the germans before WWII."

Unfortunately, and what scares the heck out of people, is that "the herd mentality that Hitler summoned out of Germans before WWII" was based primarily on Hitler's rhetoric regarding Germany's vicitmhood. Sound familiar?


BARBER:

我觉得你讲的这个受害者神话问题,倒真是非常贴切你们所狂热支持的藏独人士包括达赖在内.难道当前局面的起因不正是因为藏独人士置藏区历年来所接受的汉人物质资助于不顾,一昧偏执地认定汉人所为系种族或文化灭绝,而藏人俨然是当今生活在另一种形式的集中营中的犹太人,是当今世界苦难最重的VICTIM?请问,这样一种心态和宣传难道不也是得到了像你这样"理性"的西方友人不遗余力的支持么?

你根本无法用你自己的逻辑自圆其说.

can't understand what i wrote above? then that's not my fault. i can understand your language, why you can't understand mine when you are so much intoxicated in judging China and Han Chinese?

Any Chinese who post here is bilingual. but only a tiny few, at most, of those who post here in support of the Ugly Chinese proposition read Chinese. Most of the Chinese who post here has substantive experience in the West, how many of you chanting "free tibet" has a comparable experience in China?

Who's more qualified to judge whom intellectually?

We Chinese are indulging you, you have been spoiled for too long.

要真打算严肃认真地来一场智识层次上的较量,而不是玩政治,玩霸权,先回家把中文学好了再说.you have the right to use your own language, so do we. to debate a weighty issue like this, it can't be called procedurally fair unless both sides may best express their views in their respective mother tongue. we are well prepared now to satisfy this procedural fairness for your sake as we have no problem at all in understanding what you write down, but clearly you are far from being ready to concede this procedural fairness reciprocally to us. so there is no fair play, and this is because your side simply don't reject the idea of fair play. you play politics, you play cowboy-style hegemonism mixed with a constructed "china threat" Sino-phobia perplexity.

回到受害者情结上,我觉得,你恐怕要慎重使用这个概念.因为除了藏人有极其严重的受害者情结外,那就是犹太人了.受害者情结会导致纳粹主义,那你怎样看达赖,怎样看中东问题?

不巧的是,达赖的一位密友正是铁杆纳粹.这,你难道没听说过么?达赖的以血统来确定公民身份的大藏国宪法难道与纳粹的种族血统纯正论不是异曲同工么?

TRUST YOU HAVE READ ABOUT DALAI'S CONNECTION TO HIS GERMAN ADVISOR, A HARDCORE NAZI. ANY COMMENT? ANY SCRUTINY?

Asian:

I agree to Raoul's "Chinese's blind sense of victimhood"
Thousands of years, Chinese have been invaded many times by Mongolian, Manjurian, Uyghur, TIBETAN, Korean, Vietnamese, Japanese and WESTERN people etc.
And at last CCP conquered some of them and has been revenging them by compulsive and crafty assimilation into Chinese people(Han people).
As Chinese know, Western people seem to feel uneasy about the rise of China.
But frankly speaking, ASIAN people feel MORE uneasy about the Imperialism(中華) of China(esp. after CCP's crackdown on Tibetan demonstrators in March).

After the completion of 蘭新鐵道(uyghur railway), 靑藏鐵道(tibetan railway), many han people(mainly peasants) have migrated from mainland to tibet and uyghur COLONY regions.
This migration reminds me of Gold Rush to western states in USA.
In the near future, the majority people of uyghur and tibet will be Chinese(Han people)(This is one of Hu Jintao's tactics).
And dispute between immigrants and natives will occur more and more, because han people have been taking economic power from natives under the protection of CCP(CCP's First Secretary in Tibet and Police Chief in Tibet have alway been Chinese).
And han people in tibet and mainland will blame tibetan and uyghur people just like today.

Who caused these problems?
Who can solve these problems?

Tibetan? Dalai Lama? Western and Asian Countries?

Sometimes I think that CCP(esp. Hu Jintao and his followers(Tuan Pai) is clever.
Many Rebellions in china's history were caused by enraged peasants.
But now enraged peasants and young chinese don't blame CCP.
Today they blame tibetan, uyghur and other countries. and they will..?

At last, if Chinese really think that tibetans are also people of PRC, I think they should persuade their government to say :
"We feel deeply sad about the loss of life of tibetans."

What are you guys thinking about?:

The white man's racism in bone does not change a bit. They’re basically the same bunch of goons and thugs they’ve been for the last 300 years.

Don't waste your time here. You can not change anything by talking with thugs and goons. Just do something get yourself strong and rich.

sarah:

Mr. Pomfret,

As a graduate student in science at Stanford, I find the evidences you presented in your article quite disturbing. I believe people deserve to know FACTS and STATISTICS and not a just QUALITATIVE description based on your own bias.

First, will you please state the number of pro-China supporters that were present at the relay events around the world, including pro-china rallies in non-relay locations? Then can you state the number of violent acts by these supporters? Can you give us the percentage of the Chinese supporters that were actually violent?

Now will you do the same for Pro-Tibet supporters and anti-China demonstrators--like the person who tried to snatch the torch from the handicapped torch bearer and some Japanese demonstrators that
scuffled with Chinese students? (Unless you don't define these acts as violence)

Maybe these numbers will give a clearer picture of who exactly qualifies as 'UGLY'.

Also can you also give the YEAR Yang Bo wrote the book "Ugly Chinese" and in what CONTEXT. As far as I remember, he wrote the book something like 15-20 years ago when China was very different and not at all developed.

Finally I find it very ironic in the Tiananmen Square demonstrations of 1989, the same 'angry youth's were HEROES and APPLAUDED by the West when they protested against the Chinese government, now they are UGLY and CRITICIZED when they show support for the Chinese government.

Standing in the middle:

Stop insulting each other. You only can insult yourself. There are thugs and goons on both sides. Shame on you

Asian:

Pomfret's "angry youth" reminds me of Tuan Pai(共靑團, Communist Youth League of China, over 70 millions members).
Pomfret's "soft China" reminds me of Deng Xiaoping's 韜光養晦(raising power in secret).

孔子曰 桀紂以唯唯而亡 (Confucius said that two tyrants perished because they didn't listen to words unpleasant to the ear.)
If Chinese in this blog are genuine patriots, they should look straingt(正視) into CCP's wrong policies and tell the truth(正言) to their government. Because blind patriots could be disaster to their fatherland as the Nazis did.
Of course, I wonder if Chinese can blame openly CCP(esp. Hu Jintao)'s wrong policies IN China as Western people can do in their countries.

And I think a few chinese in this blog have heard about 邊疆史地硏究中心(the PRC's authorities for distorting 55 races' history) and it's processes (西北工程(process for distorting Uyghur's history), 西南工程(process for distorting Tibet's history), 北疆工程, 海疆工程, 東北工程 etc.)
Tibet was NEVER part of China(Chinese's country) before Mao's invasion in 1949.

Records of Three Kingdoms(三國志, a famous novel of China) says at first "it is obvious that even long-standing empire will be separated in the long run(天下大勢 分久必合 合久必分)".
If CCP and Chinese really respect and love 200 millions ethnic minorities and 5.3 billions people of the world, PRC could be long-standing empire. (I really hope so)
But if CCP would not change its oppressive and crafty policies as Hu Jintao has been doing since ordered discharge on Tibetan demonstrators in 1989, PRC could be short-lived empire.
This is History.

And Chinese! Don't say tibetan fighters in tibet Criminals.
Who made the laws? Tibetans?

Raoul's barber:

PrettyChinese says about negative comments about China: "That kind of herd mentality provoked by propaganda or by dishonest media is exactly the same as what Hilter successfully summoned out of the germans before WWII."

Unfortunately, and what scares the heck out of people, is that "the herd mentality that Hitler summoned out of Germans before WWII" was based primarily on Hitler's rhetoric regarding Germany's vicitmhood. Sound familiar?

Raoul:

Pretty Chinese,

How is this?...China, in the 19th C., was a victim of British -- and in the 20th C. Japanese -- imperialism, and so no one has the right to criticize China ever again. Unless China says so.

Does that feel better? Is that what you want, some kind of special status as "international victim"?

But when will China every stop being the victim?

You've internalized this victim narrative to the degree that you completely flip out at the slightest negative statement. Do you expect China, as a major world power, to somehow avoid what you call "strong negative language"?

There is no way to put this delicately, Pretty Chinese: you need to grow up. Like any country in the same position, as China gets wealthier and more powerful, it will be in for even more publicity -- some positive, some negative. In fact, you probably haven't seen anything yet.

I imagine you will cling to your victimhood like an outworn housecoat, muttering about others' fear, prejudice and hatred, thinking to yourself, "We are the victims. We cannot be criticized. Why do they hate us so?"

China's actions don't really trouble me that much, honestly, nor do the antics of the fen qing. I've lived in China for long periods, studied the language for many years, and have made some good friends. In fact, I likely fall into the category of one of China's defenders in the US.

But the smoldering resentment and blind sense of victimhood that seethes from your commentary makes me feel physically ill.

Anonymous:

Do u want to
remain poor, humble and loved by all
or be rich, strong and hated by some?

PrettyChinese:

To Raoul,

If you happy to be called "Ugly American", go ahead. I don't think that's something should be proud of at all. This kind of cheap shot from sensational media catering to the lowest instinct of people is shameful. You talk about Ugly has been used on other countries too. You are right. But that doesn't make those usages right. Remember how American started to dislike all french people and even called french fries american fries? All just because French government disagree with the rational of going to war with Iraq. That kind of herd mentality provoked by propaganda or by dishonest media is exactly the same as what Hilter successfully summoned out of the germans before WWII.

When you laughed at how Chinese feel (or Iraqis or whoever victimized by the west) as inferiority complex as if some sort of mental illness. It shows how shallow and how apathetic you are. Britain has used gunboat to force Qing government to let them sell opium in China. You can only understand how a victim feels like if you imagine one day Columbia is strong enough to force the US government to open the door to let them legally sell heroine here. Of course you don't think that'll ever happen, maybe that's why you are more concerned that China may become strong and remember what the west did to them. But I can tell you, if you cannot rise above the darkside of fear and keep spreading prejudice and hatred, nobody will win. Everybody loses. BTW, I don't condone fear mongering from some of the fengqings either. But that doesn't mean all Chinese are ugly. Just like I don't conclude majority of American or westerner are all haters just because of this article or some of the comments here.

Bottom line, strong negative language like this towards the entire
group of people provokes animosity from both sides that nobody wins. Even if you don't think every Chinese is ugly. But someone less familiar with China may be led to think so after reading this article.


To Starren,

"Humanity is not a big value for chinese..". So sounds like you don't want to uphold humanity value either, then why try to sell it to the rest of the worlds?

"Who is now concerned about having friends in "the world"?.. who need a more favourable views right now. .."
I forgot, neocons believe the superpower US doesn't need friends and don't care what the rest of the world say either, to them whatever international is made to be broken (but by them only) and that they have absolute right to accuse others of breaking international laws or treaties. That's exactly what set bad example for what you labeled as the "evil" countries that they now believe they too have to be strong and have nuclear weapon so that they can act like the US. Fortunately, majority of Americans do not think like you.

"..what about the promise made by your gov.." Your insensitivities have blinded your eyes. I did not defend Chinese government on everything. But I don't categorily conclude everything they do is bad ignoring facts like your "objective" media do either. My point has been, it's the start of prejudice when you brandish the entire group of people with some demeaning label based on it's government, it's leader, or some individual misbehavior in that group. Honestly, do you think any government in this world keep every promise they made domestically and internationally?

Bottom line, if one keep act like a bully oneself while accusing others not free or democratic enough, he's not going to win many supports from ordinary people of the countries that he accused, at the end, the dictators win and laugh. That is how nationalism starts everywhere that governments can manipulate to their advantages. That has been proven time and again.

May god bless us all with peace.

protibet:

"CCCP does no need to prove anything, for the them reason and truth emanates from endless repetition and the absence of a second opinion."

Very good point, and I have yet to see a “second opinion” on Dalai from the mass media. As far as I can tell, only the “saint” story has been repeated endlessly. Is Dalai elected by popular votes every four year? No. Does he have power above what’s entitled by “government-in-exile” constitution –devoted followers who only refer to him with HH will tell you. Maybe he is a great man with good intentions. But “great man always fail” --- the Chinese have learned their lesson from Mao. The western know the “separation of church and states” as the pillar of their democracy. But when it comes to the Tibetans --- it is a different standard.

protibet:

REPLY TO PEPE CHEN,
I assume you only need the evidences on the "devil" side of Dalai which are rarely mentioned these days:

a) The state of the Tibet society prior to Dalai’s exile.
Please refer to research done by western historians Melvyn Goldstein (distinguished professor of Anthropology at Case Western Reserve Univ. and the Director of Center for Research on Tibet ) and A.Tom Grunfeld (a SUNY distinguished history professor with an emphasis on China and Tibet) . Both are acknowledged experts in Tibetan history.

b) CIA funding to Dalai
Dalai admitted after US unclassified related CIA documents. This is also reported by NYTimes a couple of years back. (somehow all my posts with weblinks have been "moderated")

c) The oppression of other branches by Dalai.
Since mid 90s, Dalai has been oppressing the believers fo Dorje Shugden ( a branch of Tibetan Budhism with hundreds of years of history) among Tibetan-in-exile community. You can hear the testimony of Tibetan-in-exile at YouTube (search Dalai vs. Dorje Shugden). One explanation is that after the CIA reduced the funding to Dalai, Dalai wanted to overtake the Dorje Shugden branch to consolidate the donations under his branch.

protibet:

Beautify is only in the eye of the beholder. The westerns (mis)perception on China or Chinese is mainly derived from the western media coverage, Western mass media is profit-driven and needs to produce materials that fit its audiences taste. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean the speech is objective or unbiased, nor equal volume for both sides – the mass media (CNN, WashtingtonPost, etc) literally controls the public opinion, especially towards foreign affairs when the public has limited first-hand experiences. This creates a vicious cycle.

The Chinese culture and its value system have persisted and evolved over three thousand plus years. Chinese are as ugly or as beautiful as they have been for ages. Yet the western media / audience change its perspective frequently to suit its own interests, and the manipulated public would either take China as the scapegoat for their own problem, or take the “holy-than-thou” stance and lecture the Chinese on western culture or values.

Pepe Chen:

Mr.Protibet,

you should try to argument your ideas, not just repeat like a parrot what you have read elsewhere, that wont help your cause, at least on a forum of intelligent people.

How about some evidence, some of that evidence that Chin'a goverment insists it has but never shows to anyone.

Why?

Because the CCCP does no need to prove anything, for the them reason and truth emanates from endless repetition and the absence of a second opinion.

Pepe Chen:

Let me add that nationalism is a double edged sword, dangerous to whoever uses it, not just in China but everywhere (Yugoslavia as an example). For chinese readers in this forum. Do not mistake criticism of the goverment with criticism of the chinese. Many brave chinese fight everyday for their rights and even with the perceived bias and lack of objective information, very often it is only foreign intervention and attention that keeps them from suffering even harsher reprisals.
Also the chinese shouldnt see foreign criticism as black or white absolutes. Great progress in many fronts has been achieved in China in the last 20 years. Things have gone reasonably well under the current leadership, alas, it is incresingly evident that things could go even better without them, because China's biggest ills, today, come mostly from the system itself, which has as one of it most characteristic traits, the constant fear of their own people's freedom.

ProTibet:

"a jackal clothed in a monk's robes, and a vicious devil who is a beast in human form" -- fits Dalai's profile quite well

HHDL is the saint, the Nobel peace award winner, the crusader of a “free-Tibet”, the “spiritual leader” of Tibetan Buddhism and some Hollywood actors.

Dalais is the devil, the head of a serfdom/slavery system prior to his exile, the leader of the CIA-funded separatist movement, and the theocratic dictator who oppresses the believers of other branches of Tibetan Buddhism even in his “government-in-exile” ( there are quite a few branches in Tibetan Buddhism and Dalai only represents one of the sect (the red-hat sect, which is about 20% of all Tibetan monks).)

Pepe Chen:

The end of soft power is not really such but more the temporary failure to disguise their usual brutal methods back home. Under duress the fachade has cracked and become evident to the outside world what the default mode really is inside China. Manners and modes you can't change overnight. It is quiet astonishing how this 'angry youth' have taken up the same represive methods that were the norm during the cultural revolution. Persecution of dissent, struggle sessions and outright elimination by force of the dissenters.
The have been stoking the flame of nationalism for decades now, this was in the making. What this youth will do when they are in power? at least those who are in power have the experience of having been manipulated once, the cultural revolution, but this uncultured hotheads?

Ugly Turkish:

Poor peaceloving Kurdish

Turkey 'kills 150 Kurdish rebels'

Ugly Germany:

See what they are doing now...
Is the German government too oppressive? There are people revolting~, wow

Peter:

Marsilius states: "Forcing Chinese to engage in a debate like this in English is in itself a massive act of cultural hegemony."

I actually laughed out loud. Who "forced" you to participate in this forum??

marsilius:

I would be surprised if Bo Yang would have any sympathy for "Free Tibet". Bo Yang is himself a "feng qin", an old "angry youth". Pomfret only used the title of his book too conveniently; Bo Yang did not name his book as such in the current context of "Free Tibet".

"turn the world away from China"? Hello, a few western countries may add to the "world"?

"What does this all mean for China? To me, it means the end of an era of China's 'soft power'." Mr. Pomfret, I think if you bother to reflect upon your sense of civilizaitonal supremacy, it won't be too difficult for you realize that for a very considerable sum of genuinely educated Chinese, this cannot mean the end of China's "soft power" but only that of the West. You get it terribly wrong on a very simply fact: genuinely educated Chinese never think China has reached the stage of wieding any "soft power" that may be called "power". That's Beijing's whining propaganda to fool itself. Genuinely educated Chinese can't take this seriously, and why do you have to highlight it? What really matters, or what really has been taken seriously so many years by genuinely educated Chinese, is the soft power of the West, and this has come to an end.

Your profession has a reputation crisis now.

And if you have gut to have a fair play, please write up a blog in Chinese language or bilingually. Forcing Chinese to engage in a debate like this in English is in itself a massive act of cultural hegemony. Don't tell me you can't write Chinese good enough for a debate like this after being in China so many years and married a Chinese lady.

Anonymous:

Every rising power will go thru some ugly phases.

Li Bo:

Ugly Chinese is a book by Bo Yang.

He just died. That's why he used the term. And because the shoe fits.

This forum proves it is alive and well.

Mental illness, obsession with race and humiliation.

Rather pathetic.

If you want to see more, got to climb higher.

terfmop chinese to 中国人:

"It is hard to physically bear the living in Tibet except for Tibetans, they are cut out to settle there."

It makes sense. I had a relative whose husband is a doctor and volunteered to go to Kunming, Yunnan in the 60s. Whenever she came back for a visit to Shanghai, she complained that the altitude there is unbearable even though the altitude in Kunming is only about 2000 m. Just imagine to live everyday in the altitude of 4000 m in Lhasa. I always had a great disbelief when reading the western news claiming that Han-Chinese flooding Tibet.

Raoul's librarian:

Again and again, mainland contributors here bring up the issue of "race". This explicitly race-based perspective of international politics had considerable currency in the US, it's true...100 years ago!!

Can our mainland friends please come up with some other frameworks, please? Teddy Roosevelt is no longer here to have this discussion with you.

Raoul:

Pretty Chinese,

How is the use of "Ugly Chinese" any worse than the use of "Ugly American"? You immediately dismiss the use of this term as rooted in some kind of "racial" prejudice, instead of viewing it as a critique of the BEHAVIOR of recent moves by young Chinese abroad . It is criticism of the BEHAVIOR of people who happen to be citizens of China; just as "Ugly American" is a critique of the behavior of people who happen to be citizens of the US.

Yet you conclude: "This is about Westerners so used to look down on Chinese that they become insensitive to whatever mud that haters throw to spread prejudice and hatred."

Who "looks down" on Chinese? It seems that you yourself look down on Chinese for some reason, that some kind of festering inferiority complex is in play. You find a "contemptuous undertone" in the use of a phrase that is a long-established convention in Western discourse regarding the behavior of citizens of a major power. If you did a media search, I think you would see the phrase applied to French, British, Russians, Japanese, Germans, etc. Must it be rooted in racial animus?

Perhaps Westerners and Chinese need to better understand the rules of discourse in each other's societies. But your default use of the "race card" is cheap and unproductive. It is convenient, though, and has the benefit of casting you as the poor victim.

Please end the pity party. From one who claims to be "pretty", it is very unbecoming.

Don River:

Denzel Washington: said "
Somebody wrote:
"What would happen to John Pomfret if he writes “ The Ugly Blacks”"
R: Nothing, because "Black is beautiful!". Black people don't have a blatant inferiority complex as you chinese do.
Black people support Tibet liberation."

While I am an admirer of black culture, I highly doubt that if John Pomfret wrote "The Ugly Blacks", there would be no consequence. Remember Don Imus, anyone?

Denzel Washington:

Somebody wrote:

"What would happen to John Pomfret if he writes “ The Ugly Blacks”"

R: Nothing, because "Black is beautiful!". Black people don't have a blatant inferiority complex as you chinese do.
Black people support Tibet liberation.

I dictate who is ugly and who is not:

The current anti-China and anti-Chinese campaign runs parallel with US and UK’s world I and II propaganda. John Pomfret’s piece is part of this campaign. The propaganda for involving America in the bloodshed and hatreds of Europe–in World War I and World War II–was the same as that now being used to push and prepare the US public into US & UK war with China. To do that US had to rouse public hatred and racial contempt for anything of China and the Chinese. “The ugly Chinese” comes out to serve this mission.

中国人 to“I dictate who is ugly”:

How do u get this? a metaphor or truth?
If not, Sorry but i guess that the alike conclusions such as CIA involved in the Grace Wang events, and the death of the female writer of Nanking is a bit far-fetched. I hope i am wrong.
Let's put an end to this useless debat and do some concrete work, make money or do reseach or orgnize peope for public causes in china. thanks

I dictate who is ugly:

The Rules of Engagement : (scripted by CIA and MI 6 and Pentagon Media War Room)

+++General Guideline+++
Using all mind manipulating means to divert the Europeans and the world anger from the US and UK Iraq war; including:
….
Rule 101: When the Chinese anger was provoked and when they are united, attack that they have a narrow and negative nationalism.

Rule 102: When our agent gets into action, be it violently snatching, pushing, shoveling for the torch, disregard the female, male, able or the crippled. Be sure to heap on the praising words, like " the protesters for human rights " or “ the peaceful monks” and be absolutely sure not to use the words like "animals".

Rule 103: When the Chinese person or the Chinese youth get into a counter-demonstration, or guard the torch, be sure to pile up the words like "ugly", "animals", "thugs" or any inhuman words on them.

Rule 104; Our racial superiority must be absolutely maintained. The Chinese race does not deserve the Olympic games. They must be excluded at all cost.
….

Wei Jun Zhi:

Would John Pomfret support Free Hawaii Movement ?

中国人:

why we will defeat you, since you are our boss?
you post this to mislead the healthy discustion.
you must have too much time to kill.

Starren:

@ prettychinese

"....You are a human being, would you like to be treated the same way?"
____________________ Humanity is not of a big value for chinese, having seen the violent comments everywhere in the blogs and the attitude of the chinese students abroad...."

"Offer the world more love and hope, .................then the world will respect US better"
______________________Which "world" are you taking about? Who is now concerned about having friends in "the world"?
US or China?

"then Chinese people will look upon westerner with more favorable views"
_______________________You know what? Again you are the one who need a more favourable views right now.

"the spirit of Olympics: It's good to compete, let's compete peacefully, compete for the good of human race"
_________________BTW what about the promise made by your gov when obtained the Olympic in 2001? It was about open up to civil freedoms, HUman Rights, forgotten?

Let's all rise above fear that evils -CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY- try to defeat us.

Jane:

China - My Fair Lady!
China - My Fair Lady!
China - My Fair Lady!
China - My Fair Lady!
China - My Fair Lady!

中国人 to CASTRO: :

Allow me to say I always very respect the US NGOs. They've been accomplished a lot good things. I hope I can participate in or donate, something like this. Few NGO here in China, what a pitifully. Someone argue it is the obligation of government, we've paid tax and that is enough.

"My fair lady" is “窈窕淑女", the auther is the old friend of Chinese people, and the movie star has lots of fans here, Rome Holiday, am i right?
The Chinese acturally is the 800 million peasants, who cann't care less about these, they just want to improve their life, not the other 500 million city folks fooling around.

papa:

Why argueing so much with these bunch of kids who only like to be spoonfed by Dalai Liar the baby sitter. To prove they are only the foot-soldiers on bandwagen of neo-con's geopolitical agenda, one document should be enough as follows, the full text of the Dalai's 1951 telegram to Mao:

"Chairman Mao of the Central People's Government:

This year the local government of Tibet sent five delegates with full authority headed by Kaloon Ngapoi to Beijing in late April 1951 to conduct peace talks with delegates with full authority appointed by the Central People's Government.

On the basis of friendship, delegates on both sides concluded the Agreement on Measures for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet on May 23,1951.

The local government of Tibet as well as the Tibetan monks and laymen unanimously support this agreement, and under the leadership of Chairman Mao and the Central People's Government, will actively assist the People's Liberation Army in Tibet to consolidate national defence, drive imperialist influences out of Tibet and safeguard the unification of the territory and the sovereignty of the motherland. I hereby send this cable to inform you of this. “

eastman:

There are over 120,000 South Koreans living in China who prefer to be ruled by "demon commie" as a cost of cheap living, not mentioning another 250,000 North Koreans illegal refugees.
If Koreans deported a few Chinese, it would not be a big deal, since we have a much much bigger choice to select from.
Actually I am tired of living together in Beijing with these stupid, ignorant, tasteless and stubban Korean neighbor and would like all them deported, back to their match box flats at home.

Jane:

Eliza Doolittle can be "My Fair Lady" if you are a gentleman and treat her like a Duchess. If you are misogynistic and snobbish, she will always be a ugly flowergirl in your eyes. The same goes with the Chinese.

PS:
For anyone who doesn't know Eliza Doolittle, you can google Movie "My Fair Lady" starring Audrey Hepburn in 1964. It's awesome movie.

中国人to terfmop chinese: :

one of my points is that their current religion zeal is not good. I hope you will notice this points. Some monks are evil. Please kindly notice "some". they are devout follower of a religion who almost donate all properties to temple controlled by monks. Therefore, the China government want they will be educated and things will be better. But, once educated, sarcastically enough, some of them begin to ask for independence.

eastman:

When you say "Bo Yang, the former political prisoner", you failed to make it clear he was "political prisoner" in Taiwan, not in mainland CHina. I just doubt if you wrote it this way by purpose, as any foot soldier of west's information terrorist war would do.

PrettyChinese:

To Raoul,
You are right Chinese is a nationality, not a race. But if you are not apathetic, insensitive, at least you are lack of understanding. I'll assume the best of you. Prejudice against an entire group of people, be it nationality, race, or just a small town, originate from same kind of human sin. It's against the principle that the American hold dear to heart that God create all man equal.
Is "Ugly Chinese" phrase bad? If you and I are friends joking around, that's not bad. In the context of serious insinuation of character of typical Chinese (or at least young Chinese) by a established newspaper, it has the same effect as a journalist writing an article and using Negro and Niger to refer to African American. Do you have the sensitivity to detect its contemptuous undertone? This is not about Chinese losing face. This is about Westerners so used to look down on Chinese that they become insensitive to whatever mud that haters throw to spread prejudice and hatred. You are a human being, would you like to be treated the same way?
Offer the world more love and hope, spit out less hatred and prejudice, stop attempting to stir up trouble around the world, then the world will respect US better, then Chinese people will look upon westerner with more favorable views. Fortunately, majority of people around the world love peace and that's the spirit of Olympics: It's good to compete, let's compete peacefully, compete for the good of human race. Let's all rise above fear that evils try to defeat us (I mean everyone of us in the world) with.

中国人 to terfmop chinese: :

one thing to clarify, the comments requiring u do not use "We" is not responded by me.
I've had my lunch.
I do not belive "pigeon" Dalai Lama can control all the tibertans. He may be resort to peace, but the "eagle" uprising leaders and "angry Tibertan youth" who long in exile may want more violence to gain the attention of china government and world communities. I doubt they hate China for not allowing them back homeland tibet since born. In Downing Street, The British government will meet Afghanistan guerrilla fighting aginst soviat unions. So "some" vilolent Tibertents just want to follow suite. In additon, i guess not all lootors in the riot are for indepences, what i means is that maybe some of them are looter and robber in nature. They care less about democracy or nationalism.
Tibet independence is impossible to China government unless you sent US troops. An u.s reportor said, the oil pipeline is bypass there, i do not know weather it is real.
If you support tibet independence, it is more pratical to support high level self governing without over-rulling exploits of religions on average tibertan peasants.

As Han pepole myself, i would go to the developed coastal cities and areas instead of Tibet. The coastal cities is agreable in weather and abundant in payment and job oppotunties. I will do businsee and travel Tibit in agreeable seasons, but i will leave as soon as possible in the abominable seasons. It is hard to physically bear the living in Tibet except for Tibetans, they are cut out to settle there. As other Chinese people, Tibet is not a good place to live for lifetime! As I know, the Han people stay there is do business in summer time or the professionals sent by government. When the professionals and cadres return,they will propabley be promoted as the compensations for his work in the romote areas like tibet and physically suffer the altiplano weather there.

Jane:

This is the price you pay for freedom of speech. You don't sound like you like freedom of speech so much anymore. Did you think about that if you weren't in our face, we wouldn't be in yours at all.

CASTRO:

Hi SoWhat:
"So now the world doesnt like 1.4 billion chinese, so the fcuk what? Chinese people dont particularly like the West too at this moment, fair enough. "
"Remmember how the world hated Americans before they invaded Iraq? Millions people all over the world went on streets...I see Americans are just doing fine now after 4 yrs."

Now you are starting to understand. All this is not necessariliar a West vs China issue. The media is part entertainment, part opinion control and part brain killing waste of time, sure it can inform if you know what you are looking at and for. The media finds it very easy to insult and piss off China and then the reaction becomes entertainment. Chinesse reactions are doing ten times more damage than anything to do with Tibet if not 100 times. That and keeping a lot secret. Many posters call it western bias or hypocrecy, but the sad truth a small lie usually does a hell of a lot more damage the a big nasty truth in the west. Lies and secrets allow the imagination to run wild and fuel speculation, plus allows special interest to fule speculation. That is the true culture difference between east and west cultures. When people say we do not understand China, that is not necessary true, maybe some in the west understand China, but just do not care. Many westerners have thick skins and can brush of a lot of bad press and they find those who are easy to insult "weak" or a big "weakness" to use or gain entertainment with. How many young bloggers use insults to piss people off? A lot, why, it is entertaining for them. Some may thing what I just said as an insult, yet none is intended, it is just useful information.


"Although most westerners support tibent independence." This is not true, very few westerners support tibet independence. 99% simply do not care, period. If China announced that a 100 Tibetans died, a very small minority in the west we demonstrate, most will just think and say, that is to bad and not give it another thought. Why do you think Iraq is what it is, or Rewanda, or Danfur. The world is just to big and messed up everyone for 99.9% of people world wide to do anything more that go about there lives. That simple. I do not know if most Chinese know what I am about to say. There are people who make a living protesting, running and working for poverty groups, human rights groups, anti homeless, etc... groups. Most of them start off actually wanting to make a difference, but eventually most either realized it is not working and either quit or become radical, others start to understand that it is a business unto itself. They get paid and some very well to demonstrate, if poverty was gone or human rights were solved, they would not have jobs. I know these types of people. Bleeding hearts, with little influence except to cause enough coverage so they can raise money to keep their jobs.

I hope the above helps.

terfmop chinese:

OK, I would not use "we".

But the monks should know by now the violence will just hurt their cause. They would at least pretend to be peaceful now. Maybe they have received non-violence instructions from Dalai Lama. You think they would be still that stupid to start riots?

You said it right. Tibet will belong to Tibetan. I had friends visiting there and said that they couldn't get used to the elevation and climate. But the whole world is believing that Han-Chinese is flooding the Tibet. Who is right then?

CHINESE:

to Darden Cavalcade:
我代表中国人民感谢ur grandfather。感谢美国人民曾经对中国的无私援助。
假如以后美国被人侵略,中国人民也会帮助你们的。但美国是supercountry,谁也侵略不了你们。

humble chinese:

Have you ever heard the Chinese phrase "the sound of one hand clap"? Both the locals and the Chinese protesters are actively participated in the violent protests in Japan and South Korea, and some Chinese students were severely wounded in Japan. All violence shall be condemned, regardless which side started. However, the Chinese steal the spotlight to be the poster boy of “ugly nationalism”, thanks to the western media's devoted attention. Maybe it is easier to make a story on nationalism and communist China --- otherwise how to justify the nationalism in Japan and South Korea?

to terfmop chinese: :

some Chinese reportor also not support the ban of CNN entry to Tibet.
From my point of view, First, the CNN and some german reportor obviously and purposely make up something, which makes me and governmet feel sick about it. They visit more, spin more, and the some westerners just choose to believe those they would like to believe. ..
Second, the officials of China government's rigid, they just do not wanna to avoid trouble and keep harmonious,that is the action priciple of all their decisions.
Third, for reportor's safety? You may not beleive, but it make sense. Although most westerners support tibent independence. There do have mobs, they just take advantages of the independence riots to loot and kill.

You can also guess, they want "close the door and beat the dog". I'd like to say, why bother to close door or beat. Beating dog make not much senses, the contradiction is not that pressing. The average tibertan supports government, although the monks and noblesses and landlorder what overturn it.
Most Tibetan people just continues their peacful life.
Sorry for my poor english, gatto have lunch.
Tibet will always belong to tibetan. The other people's body and nature in the world cannot stand the weather and altiplano there.

To terfmop chinese:

'terfmop chinese:
I am just punzzled why we are so afraid of the foreign reporters'

Don't use we if you are not in the party or not a government official

中国人:

What are we dong here, can't help laughing.haha..
most comments are irrelevent to the topic.
I've noticed some of us offer u a vedio link and none of you see it.

terfmop chinese:

I am just punzzled why we are so afraid of the foreign reporters. Let them go to Tibet. What is the big deal? The world is believing the worst there. Can't get any worse. I would let BBC reporters go there and report whatever they want. I would not trust some CNN or German reporters though.

psychiatrist:


ANYBODY NEED HELP? I GUESS THE ANSWER IS NO.

East and West:

Not trying to win any argument, just express my opinion.

Have Mercy!:

East and West,

If arguments were won by mind-numbing repetition and bombast, you would stand unopposed. Lord...

East and West:

When we were the Sick Man of Asia, We were called The Yellow Peril.
When we are billed to be the next Superpower, we are called The Biggest Threat.
When we closed our doors, you forced in opium and occupied our land.
When we embrace Free Trade, You blame us for taking away your jobs.
When we were falling apart, You marched in your troops and wanted your concessions.
When we tried to put the broken pieces back together again, Free Tibet you screamed, It Was an Invasion!
When we tried Communism, you hated us for being Communist.
When we embrace Capitalism, you berated us for mercantilism .
When we have a billion people, you said we were destroying the planet.
When we tried limiting our numbers, you said we abused human rights.
When confederates wanted secession, you waged Civil war.
When slave owners want to rule Tibet again, you pile on money and adulation.
When we were poor, you treated us as dogs.
When we loan you cash, you blame us for your national debts.
When we make your products, you call us Polluters.
When we sell you goods, you blame us for global warming.
When we buy oil, you call it exploitation and genocide.
When you go to war for oil, you call it liberation.
When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you demanded rules of law.
When we uphold law and order against violence, you call it bloody repression.
When we were silent, you said you wanted us to have free speech.
When we are silent no more, you say we are brainwashed and angry mob.
When we stay out of spotlight, you said we are selfish.
When we express our views, you said it is organized by embassies.
When we support our country, you say it is dangerous nationalism.
When you love your country, you said you are proudly patriotic.
When Tibetans killed and burned in Lhaha, you call it peaceful demonstration.
When blacks rioted for Rodney King beating, you sent in Federal troops and National guard.
When flame attendants ran along, you call them thugs.
When the relays were violently interrupted and the handicapped attacked, you call them freedom fighters.
Why do you hate us so much, we asked.
No, you answered, we don't hate you.
We don't hate you either, But, do you understand us?
Of course we do, you said, We have AFP, CNN and BBC's...
What do you really want from us? Think hard first, then answer...
Because you only get so many chances.
Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy , Enough Cryptic Racial Superiority.
We want One World, One Dream, and Peace on Earth.
This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us.

Raoul:

T.S.,

A slight clarification: Graham Greene's book was entitled, "The Quiet American".
"The Ugly American" was co-authored by W. Lederer and E. Burdick.
Both worth reading, btw.

What is the purpose of good literature (besides entertainment) but to lead one out of one's everyday perspective. A title is used to pique interest, yes. And, sometimes, a title can be used to shock the reader into confronting the unpalatable.

Is the use of "The Ugly Chinese" really that bad? It is telling that a previous poster suggested that Pomfret's title is equivalent to "The Ugly Black." But Chinese is a nationality, and not an ethnic marker. The term "Chinese" includes Han, Manchu, Miao, (etc.) ethnicities, doesn't it? As such, "The Ugly Chinese" refers to citizens, not a racial group.

I am starting to believe that there is something about Chinese mainland culture that is particularly hostile to the give and take of open debate and criticism. Any critique is received as a mortal thrust at the core of China and Chinese.

But, as the experience of Taiwan suggests, culture can change. So this is not some eternal Chinese trait, one hopes, but something that has simmered in the mainland social cooker for decades, if not longer. Slowly, perhaps, it will change. Until then, the West and China will have to learn to dance around each other, hopefully not stomping each other's toes too badly.

SoWhat:

So now the world doesnt like 1.4 billion chinese, so the fcuk what? Chinese people dont particularly like the West too at this moment, fair enough.

Remmember how the world hated Americans before they invaded Iraq? Millions people all over the world went on streets...I see Americans are just doing fine now after 4 yrs.

Yeah probably you are right about the softpower, but for the wrong reason. China's softpower is ending because we realized by now it's worthless to us, the West will never ever treat China farily no matter how "soft" China reacts to the world. At the end of the day, only HARD power counts, that's what got America into Iraq, stole all the oil, killed 1 million people, and got away with it. Not some stupid soft power.

SoWhat:

So now the world doesnt like 1.4 billion chinese, so the fcuk what? Chinese people dont particularly like the West too at this moment, fair enough.

Remmember how the world hated Americans before they invaded Iraq? Millions people all over the world went on streets...I see Americans are just doing fine now after 4 yrs.

terfmop chinese:

Like to say something about the Americans. They could be very annoying and they could be constantly lecturing you. But they are the one made huge sacrifices in two world wars. If it were not the Americans, we might be still under Japanese occupation. Why the Taiwanese like the American, without American they would have had forty miserable years as we had on the mainland. For the same reason, the Koreans are grateful to the American too. Even the Vietnamese love the American. That says something, does it? In terms of Iraq, they got there with some good intention too: the oil. A lower oil price would have made our lives also much better. Certainly it turned out to be the biggest miscalculation.

Funny thing though, if you call them ugly American, many of them would just laugh it off. Maybe we should learn something from them than just complaining.

Of course, world politics could be still very nasty. But that is US government.

中国人:

US's faults doesn't justify China's faults. Please stop biting each other. Please respect ourselves, do some concrete things.

terfmop chinese:

It is just typical American. They just like to lecture you. Let them be that way. Nothing will change them. Until you got enough lawyers, you will not win any argument against them. But they are actually not so bad. Don't take things too personal. Actually love the French, they are friendly in nature.

What do you want:

When we were the Sick Man of Asia, We were called The Yellow Peril.
When we are billed to be the next Superpower, we are called The Threat.
When we closed our doors, you smuggled drugs to open markets.
When we embrace Free Trade, You blame us for taking away your jobs.
When we were falling apart, You marched in your troops and wanted your concessions.
When we tried to put the broken pieces back together again, Free Tibet you screamed, It Was an Invasion!
When we tried Communism, you hated us for being Communist.
When we embrace Capitalism, you berated us for mercantilism .
When we have a billion people, you said we were destroying the planet.
When we tried limiting our numbers, you said we abused human rights.
When we were poor, you thought we were dogs.
When we loan you cash, you blame us for your national debts.
When we build our industries, you call us Polluters.
When we sell you goods, you blame us for global warming.
When we buy oil, you call it exploitation and genocide.
When you go to war for oil, you call it liberation.
When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you demanded rules of law.
When we uphold law and order against violence, you call it bloody repression.
When we were silent, you said you wanted us to have free speech.
When we are silent no more, you say we are brainwashed and mob-like.
Why do you hate us so much, we asked.
No, you answered, we don't hate you.
We don't hate you either, But, do you understand us?
Of course we do, you said, We have AFP, CNN and BBC's...
What do you really want from us? Think hard first, then answer...
Because you only get so many chances.
Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy , Enough Cryptic Racial Superiority.
We want One World, One Dream, and Peace on Earth.
This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us.

T.S.:

Indeed, who is going to decide that the Chinese are "uglier"than Americans ? "The ugly American"got its birth in G. Greene's book with the same title. A book of romance, intrigue and CIA secret shenanigans in Indo-china. "The Ugly Chinese"was born when Bo Yang used his acerbic pen to indict the Chinese as loud, dirty, masochistic, cowardly, dishonest yet constantly fighting amongst themselves. This book made Bo Yang (pen name of Guo yi-tong)a household name in Taiwan, HK, the mainland and in Chinese communities overseas. It is sensational and provactive. Also, it is deeply flawed. Because this indictment could be applied to any human societies at anytime in civilization's long march towards maturity and refinement. I told him so when I met him both in Taiwan and in NYC.

If he had the experience of riding NYC subways in the 1980s, it could dawn on him that the Chinese do not have monoply on dirtiness or loudness. Or if he had knowledge of western histories, especially that of the ancient Greeks and Romans, he would know that deception, dishonesty, in-fighting and man's inhumanity towards men are human traits, not particular tratis of a particular race, or the birth defects of a certain national psyche. Or just look at the current contention between the two democratic candidates. In the science of logic, to use a particular case as argument for the validity of a general condition is definitely a No No. Bo Yang's arguments in this book are full of holes. That being said, it is by no means to belittle the book's useful impact.
Nations, civilizations, individual human beings all need to be knocked on the head once in a while,in order to do some soul-searching and self-reflection. We all need to heed Cassandra's scolding cries occasionally, lest we grow fat, self-congratulatory and compplacent.
There are great writers, and there are important writers. Great writers are always important, but important writers are not necessarily great. Bo Yang is an important writer and his struggle for the freedom of expression for which he was imprisoned for a decade makes him a courageous one too. ( Though his history study of zi chi tong jing is full of errors as critics claim).We mourn his passing.

prettychinese:

To Anonymous

Judge by the way you reacted losing all your manners, guess truth hurts, doesn't it? You cannot retort any of my argument and have to resort to personal attacks. Shame on you. I didn't say there's no corruption in China. Corruption, lying, originate from sins of human beings in general. Do you dare say US didn't fabricate evidence to justify war on Iraq? Do you dare say no corruption in US? Just look at the pandering to special interests and pork barrel doled out constantly by the congress all the while borrowing huge national debt, do you dare then say no corruption in the west? Unlike you, I don't brandish a group of people as liar, fabricator, ugly, or whatever insult your hatred drives you to spit out, just based on individual acts out of sins. Now, who's the liar and fabricator?

As for appetite for entertainment violence, I don't think that's a good trend either. But remember, Hollywood first invented those genres. Japanese movies and TVs are way more bloody. Did you call Ugly Japanese based on that? Further, it's a giant gap to leap to insinuate watching TV/movie violence is indicator of tendency to violence for a group of people. Have most american who watched Rambo become violent?

I too like to see a more free and democratic China so that one day I speak up against the Chinese government inside China, I won't be afraid of retaliation. But by insulting Chinese as ugly, it shows the ugly mentality of the west that they think they are superior group of people. By inciting violence and distorting facts in reporting, the west loses all respects in any fair-minded people. How can you blame the reaction of Chinese students when your "objective" media lies? You don't push for justice and fairness by being unjust and unfair yourself. That's what precisely the west is doing. Isn't it US is the biggest arms dealer? Isn't it US first invaded Iraq saying to get rid of nuclear weapon then changed the story to promote democracy? The west has lost all credibility in pushing democracy unless it starts to look itself in the mirror and starts to be just and fair itself.

What the world needs is more love and tolerance, not violence and sabre rattling. Prejudice and hatred perpetuated by people like you only provoke illed animosity from both sides and doesn't serve the benefit of all except a few like the weapons manufacturerors. Try call Jews Ugly Jews and Blacks Ugly Blacks and then tell me their reactions are ugly or not. Anything unjust will lose at the end. Folks like you will shoot yourself in the foot just like US stuck in this Iaq quagmire and sinking into deeper debt hole. May god have mercy on your soul.

Doug:

Inflammatory title, Mr. Pomfret.

Bertrand:

I found it rather telling when Mr. Pomfret makes a blanket statement like, "But now across the globe China is dropping in the polls", and then proceeds to offer up only couple unnamed polls in Europe and in the U.S as proof for China's apparent unpopularity around the globe. I guess people's opinions outside Europe and the United States aren't very important, or maybe the Western hegemony is all that truly matters in this world... :)

I am in complete agreement with the Chinese artist and architect Ai Weiwei when he essentially described the Chinese nationalists' reactions on the Tibet crisis as blind and devoid of intellectual substance.

However, before we get all excited and pat ourselves on the back for discovering yet another ugly characteristic that is only unique to the Chinese society, maybe we should take a step back and look at whether ugly nationalism and group-think is truly an unique phenomena in China.

After our own national crisis on 9/11, the Bush Administration riding on a wave of nationalism bamboozled the nation into a war that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack. So what did we do when our concerned allies pointed out our nationalist follies? We renamed our fries, "Freedom Fries," and gave everyone who disagreed with our perception of national interest, the figurative middle finger. The spectacle of Americans shouting at Europeans who disagreed with them as ingrates or worse was really something to behold. :)

Let's also not forget the new nationalist fad/fashion sweeping across this country (even at this very moment) in the form of that adorable little American flag lapel pin. All of a sudden, your patriotism can no longer be trusted unless you've got yourself an American flag lapel pin. Any political leader who dares to go against such nationalist group-think will certainly pay a dear price on election day, as lapel-pin-wearing media talking heads remind them.

So, I would venture to say, anti-intellectual nationalism and group-think are nothing new, and certainly isn't indicative of anything uniquely Chinese. In fact, it is an ideological plague that affects democratic and undemocratic countries alike, especially in times of real or perceived national crisis.

I Dictate Who Shall Be Ugly and Who Shall Not Be:

Why is the racist John Pomfret withholding our post s? Having a second thought on the Freedom of Speech now ?

“We encourage users to analyze, comment on and even challenge washingtonpost.com’s articles, blogs, reviews and multimedia features “

Is John Pomfret going to abandon the above principles ? Or does he want freedom of speech for himself only?

Anonymous:

To America :

very well put. your chinese language skill is remarkable.

yes we need to define problems in order to solve problems. and the correct way to do it is to try " how can we do it " instead of " i want you to do this" or " you must do that".

But most important, LED BY EXAMPLE!

If you are a thief and tell others not to steal, will any one listen to you, probably not.

yes, westeners criticized their government a lot, and yes, china also has been criticized a lot.
but that does not give people the right to distort or fabricate facts.

The recent outburst of chinese angry is not about criticism, but the media distortion and fabrication and the violence against China.

Tell me, if USA is the host of the summer game, and some chinese tried to take the torch away from
an american girl in wheel chair, what will the media and people say?

Lance:

We should not boycott Beijing Olympic Game:

1. The way is wrong. It just like assassinating President JFK to achieve certain goal. No use but at heavy cost of third party.

2. Planting the West values in Chinese people's mind is the final solution. Giving them chance to know the great values by contacting with them.

3. Tibetan problem is not a one day job. A political console for communication is necessary, media should freely come in and out of Tibet. Dialog and negotiation is the accepted way for solving the problem.

4. War is a brutal activity and at the cost of huge human right.

5. Chinese government is not that die hard. It changes under pressure.

I dictate who is ugly:

What would happen to John Pomfret if he writes “ The Ugly Blacks” ?

Bushi Nidepengyou:

Do you have a point other than rehashing history in a sloppy manner?

Obviously not.

KMT rhetoric differs greatly from the great Communist Party that saved China and without us there would be no New China and the 80's in Taiwan are not like China today because there is no goal and never ever will be a goal or belief in democracy under the savior of the Chinese race.

KMT can have Sun Yat-sen and his belief in freedom and democracy. Mao Zedong still towers over Tiananmen and elder Jiang said: it will be nipped in the bud.

KMT:

To my GONGCHANGDANG friend,

KMT was formed as an anti-Manchu insurgent group by Dr. Sun Ye-tsun in the early 1900’s. After the fall of the Machu Empire, a former Machu general was elected as the first president of the new Republic of China. And Dr. Sun had organized multiple armed insurgencies against the “official” government in Peking. After Dr. Sun’s death, Chiang organized an armed expedition to depose the government in Peking and moved the official capital of the Republic of China to Nanking and became the Generalissimo. He had never faced voters in his life time.

GongchangDang:

"Did you change your name from CCP to Gongchangdang?"

You mean in this forum? No.

This forum has like 500 posts. Too many to read and most are boring boilerplate nonsense.

Peter:

Thanks for the clarification, Noworry. Seems reasonable.

To Gongchangdang:

Did you change your name from CCP to Gongchangdang?

Gongchangdang:

"Hitler and his National Socialists were elected in a democratic election by the German people at that time."

So I guess we don't even have that going for us.

You are right, China is worse.

As far as history, Nazi's took over by force and terror -- learn some actual history don't just spew our anti-democracy talking points.

Noworry:

Peter: you got me on that one. You see: I am a Chinese. The correct statement should be that the "free tibet" movement want to push the Chinese governemnt into a corner and let them lose face in front of 1.3 billion Chinese. But the perception for an ordinary Chinese is that this movement want to humiliate China. I never felt that the whole west want to humiliate China. Otherwise, I won't be here talking to you.

Anonymous:

Hitler and his National Socialists were elected in a democratic election by the German people at that time.

Raoul's writing tutor:

HH,

A Modest Proposal is a fine example of satire. I agree with you there. Swift's piece is ridiculous, yes, in a humorous way. Chinese Student's attempt is likewise ridiculous, but only for its utter dullness.

Using one's second language is a challenge in a forum like this, no doubt, but an awareness of one's linguistic limits is key.


Anonymous:

Peter wrote "Maybe the cause of misunderstanding is that the line between state (i.e, governing institutions) and nation (the "Chinese") in China is somewhat more fuzzy than Westerners realize?"

Peter has hit a critical point here. Back to the beginning of the ancient Chinese civilization, the family, the clan and the state are closely linked. The traditional Chinese culture also discourages individualism, and emphasizes common well being for the whole group. All these are part of the traditional Confucianism.

GongchangDang:

"The situation in China today is like the situation in Taiwan back in the 80’s. A totalitarian government is still holding unto the power but the society as a whole is changing."

Sorry, not even close.

KMT was elected in China and formed as a democratic party in the 1920's.

They were not always fully fascist and they lost to the communists because the communists were much more ruthless and murderous than even Chiang's regime

The reason you are wrong -- not even close to being right -- is that the KMT always pretended to be democratic and did have some democratic features in their system and always held freedom and democracy as the highest ideals and goals.

The Communists on the other hand are rhetorically and philosophically dead set against it and act on their unwavering opposition to it.

Your analogy is common -- a lot of people say this -- but it is fully flawed.

Better analogy is China is like Nazi Germany in the 1930's -- National Socialist.

KMT:

A few of you have guessed correctly about the moniker I am using here. You all deserve around of applause.
Now back to the topic about China. I had followed the democracy in Taiwan with somewhat of an obsession because I have always been wondering whether the kind of democracy practiced in the Europe and U.S. will work in Asian countries where the traditional Chinese culture dominates. There are some aspects of the traditional Chinese culture that are not totally compatible with a democracy. For example, it is disrespectful to openly criticize the authority, be it an emperor or a president. The press are often self-censored. Policy decisions are often decided by a few wise elders without much public debates. This is typified by Singapore, so I am not sure how authentic a democracy Singapore really is. I was very happy and optimistic that a more authentic democracy could work when KMT, historically an authoritarian or totalitarian party no less than the CCP, peacefully gave up power eight years ago. I am happier and even more optimistic today as KMT has been rewarded after its transformation into a democratic party.
The situation in China today is like the situation in Taiwan back in the 80’s. A totalitarian government is still holding unto the power but the society as a whole is changing. The transformation to a democracy is a difficult process and I am not sure that the transformation in Taiwan would have been helped by a lot of outside pressure. The imprisonment of political oppositions, the assassination of critics in the media all occurred in Taiwan during the earlier KMT rule. The U.S. government offered nothing more than a few muted private objections. Do we really need all these noisy protests today in the case of China?

Peter:

woops, guess I jumped the gun on that one.... Noworry, why in god's name would people wish to "humiliate" China? They may oppose some of its policies, and dislike its government, but do you honestly think there is a conspiracy against the Chinese nation (vs. the Chinese state)?

Maybe the cause of misunderstanding is that the line between state (i.e, governing institutions) and nation (the "Chinese") in China is somewhat more fuzzy than Westerners realize?

The argument that the West is out to "humiliate" poor China is just pitiful. It needs to be let go.

HH:

Raoul's writing tutor wrote:

"Chinese student, as you may realize, satire requires a light touch. Otherwise, the result is just a little ridiculous."

Maybe you should reread A Modest Proposal.

Edgar Box:

"But these days, it seems like someone has disinterred Cultural Revolution propagandist and Gang of Four member Zhang Chunqiao and put him at the helm.

After the March riots in Tibet, the Tibetan government proclaimed a "people's war" against "splittism" (somebody should really tell them to lose that word) and the party boss there called the Dalai Lama "a jackal clothed in a monk's robes, and a vicious devil who is a beast in human form." A few days later the Ministry of Foreign Affairs called House Speaker Nancy Pelosi "disgusting." And the amazing thing was the Chinese expected to be taken seriously."

It has always been like this. It did not change under Deng, not under Jiang, not with Hu now.

Why is John Pomfret just noticing this last week?

Noworry:

Also I want to point out is that the whole "free tibet" campaign seems to have only one goal: humiliate China at all cost. The tactics of using false claims and twisting facts, are only accetable during the war time. People understood this and see the war waged against their home country. That certainly did not go well with all the Chinese whether they are in mainland or oversea.

Raoul:

Noworry,

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

Concernedly Energized:

To the WashPost Editor-in-Chief:

Please re-run the story as the front-page primary headline article.

Thank you for your due attention.

Noworry:

Raoul: I don't mean that western can just keep quiet. I have no problem to see Bush or Merkel meeting Dalai Lama. I have no problem seeing US congress passing some resolutions. I had no problem hearing Olympics boycott calls (I did not like it). It did not upset me when the first western report called the Tibet riot as "peaceful demonstration" and Chinese reaction as "bloody crackdown" (I knew they were biased). But as soon as I read the James Miles interview on CNN web site, I did expect that the western media to correct themselves, because he is one of them (western journalist). When the coverage continued to call "brutal crackdown", my inner voice just said, you sucker just ruined the reputation of a free press. The free press in China will have to wait another couple years. I am not optimistic whether we can still salvage this. It would require a miracle.

One good fallout though, we Chinese like to see everything from a different angle, we may see a more realistic expectation from the Tibetan exiles in the future. That will be good for the negotiation.

Raoul:

Noworry,

I agree -- a free press in China is a laudable goal.

But your characterization of the NYT article is off; the Tibet issue is one fragment of the report, which deals with the larger issue of HK's independent criticism of Beijing.

In fact, there is no mention of how mainlanders responded to these articles in the HK press...so, I'm not sure how you can say Tibet was discussed "without emotions among the Chinese".

You seem to suggest that non-Chinese should just remain quiet. In this, despite your even tone, I don't see how you are different from many of the more virulent contributors here.

Yueliang Wang:

"We need to have a free press in mainland where a honest discussion can occur. The best way for the west to advance the Tibet cause is to push for a press freedom in China. Olympics would be a unique chance and we just blow it."

Yup. Not just to advance Tibet but to advance China.

But, the opposite is happening. Olympic committee has told athletes or others in the Olympic group not to say anything because the Chinese government can lock them up for at least four days for any reason.

There is not only not a push for press freedom -- there is a push from the west to curtail personal freedom of speech at the behest of China's rulers.

It's an upside down world and Hu Jintao and his comrades in despotism must love it.

CASTRO:

TO A Chinese Student;

I had you up until the following point;

"The Chinese race does not deserve the Olympic games."

What Chinese race are you talking about. If you said chinese people, yes or Chinese nation, sure, but race? These are the small yet very revealing parts of people's thinking that concern me. There is no "Chinese" race, just like there is no "German" or "Japanese" or "American" or "Portuguese" or "Jewish" or "any" race. Period. We are all human and part of the "human" race, period. Yes, genetically there are 5 distinct different groups, but everything after that is either "culture" or "nation" or in some cases "religion" Example, Chinese culture, German nation, Jewish religion, none of them are there own race, NONE. Not ever or ever. I do not believe you meant it that way or hope you did not. But the "SECOND" people believe they are actually a seperate, distinct race apart from every other human, this has lead to pain, suffering, and the belief in superior race. I do not wish to single anyone out, but words like "race" or "destiny" or "superior" are words that are used by "Evil" to distort reality and to convence people that others are less than human or less deserving and to justify all kinds of "Horror's" that all nations history have. No nation or culture are without its dark times or ages or secreats or evils, none.

Lipang Kuo:

Rest in Peace Bo Yang.

Pomfret probably never heard of the chou zhongguoren.

C'est la vie, mon amour, wo ai ni pommes frittes.

Noworry:

To Raoul: This just confirms that the Tibet issue can only be discussed without emotions among the Chinese without people suspecting a hidden agenda. But Hong Kong press alone will not have much impact to the mainland Chinese. We need to have a free press in mainland where a honest discussion can occur. The best way for the west to advance the Tibet cause is to push for a press freedom in China. Olympics would be a unique chance and we just blow it. That is just my 2 cents.

Raoul's writing tutor:

Chinese student,

As you may realize, satire requires a light touch. Otherwise, the result is just a little ridiculous.

Mazu Yingjiu:

"And it's not due to lack of contact with the Chinese, people who are polled say, it's because we're getting to know them better."

Bingo.

The so-called China bashers are people who actually have the most experience and know China best.

The "panda huggers" are the naive and silly ones who are cowed by the bullying tactics and used by Beijing's supporters and propagandists. The bullying ad hominum tactics have been honed for decades.

Tze-min Chiang:

"While I have no problem with displays of patriotic feeling, the only thing these "angry youth" are accomplishing is turning the world away from China."

Actually they are representing China perfectly.

Thuggery and bullying are the norm China by the government. Now they think they can do it outside China too.

To think this is not the true face of the Chinese government and supporters is a bit silly and ignorant.

They do this to people in China all the time. Why doesn't Pomfret care about that and think that looks bad?

Raoul:

For some perspective on the bias issue, you might take a look at the New York Times' brief survey on the Hong Kong press attitude viz. the Olympic Torch relay: see today's online NYT, "One Country, Two Systems in Hong Kong Press".

Maybe it isn't just a "Westerner" vs. "Chinese" thing after all?

Noworry:

Don't disagree: Korea had a remarkable success economically and politically. I think it is difficult to apply the Korea example to China. Korea is about the size and population of Jiangsu province (neighboring province of Shanghai). Korea is also heavily relying on the US support (militarily and politically) because the division in Korea, therefore US has much bigger influence to Korea than to China. When I talked to my American friends, I sense that many of them think China is better off as a collection of independent countries even though none of them openly advocate this. I think this might be the biggest misconception of China. You may not want to hear about Chinese history any more after reading so many historical lessons in this post. But the fact is that Chinese distrust any attempt to split their country. That is why they disagree with western on the matter of Hong Kong, Taiwan and now Tibet. And the western just want to keep pushing on this, maybe for their self interest: because they know with their first hand experience, a singular China is difficult to deal with.

A Chinese Student:

The Rules of Engagement : (scripted by CIA and MI 6 and Pentagon Media War Room)

+++General Guideline+++
Using all mind manipulating means to divert the Europeans and the world anger from the US and UK Iraq war; including:

….

Rule 101: When the Chinese anger was provoked and when they are united, attack that they have a narrow and negative nationalism.

Rule 102: When our agent gets into action, be it violently snatching, pushing, shoveling for the torch, disregard the female, male, able or the crippled. Be sure to heap on the praising words, like " the protesters for human rights " or “ the peaceful monks” and be absolutely sure not to use the words like "animals".

Rule 103: When the Chinese person or the Chinese youth get into a counter-demonstration, or guard the torch, be sure to pile up the words like "ugly", "animals", "thugs" or any inhuman words on them.

Rule 104; Our racial superiority must be absolutely maintained. The Chinese race does not deserve the Olympic games. They must be excluded at all cost.
….

To Global Observer:

Come on, man. If you guys are protesting against the dictationship of the CCP, we will not say anything and you will not see any chinese will go to the street to counter-protest you. We know that's true ...

The problem is about Tibet, about the riot, and about the death of innocent hardworking innocent civilians. If you guys was trying to ask South Korea cede some territories (for example, the island of Dokdo) in 1988, I can guarantee you that they would give you a even biger surprise than Chinese.

Darden Cavalcade:

Noworry & Friends:

Every poll of American public opinion I've seen since 2001 shows very positive attitudes toward Chinese, too.

I don't think many Americans blame the Chinese people for anything. If it seems like we are negative about the Chinese government, remember this. Americans are suspicious about government in general, including our own. Seventy per cent of us think the country is heading in the wrong direction. A year after the new president takes office, we'll think he/she is on the wrong track, too. We distrust government. That's part of the reason the United States is awash in firearms.

Let's just have the Olympics, count the medals, and call it done.

Global Oberserve:

Noworry:

Just to give you extra information, S Korea had achieved one of the fastest economic growth during the 70's under the military dictatorship. It is also during that period, when S Korea had established the foundations of its economy. Still, the S Korean population toppled the military government.

NOWORRY:

To Global Observer: The difference might be very well that the west picked a wrong subject for their fight on democracy and freedom in China. You don't see the same strong reaction on criticism related to Chinese dissidents and even Darfur. In China, the people are not happy with the regional government, which are considered as most corrupt. Picking fight on Tibet is threatening the central government, which is credited with the most recent economical success. Picking the fight on Tibet means also no benefits for the majority of the Chinese (economically or political freedom) and they see only the downside: instability and chaos.

Global Observer:

I think there's no point in arguing with the Chinese.

I saw a political analysis somewhere about the Olympics... and it compared China to South Korea. When S Korea was given the right to hold the 1988 Olympics, there was strong criticism from the world about the then-military regime and the lack of freedom there. The Korean population acted on the criticism; they held numerous demonstrations in support of democracy and freedom. Eventually, they forced the then-military government to hold free presidential elections, and just before 1988, S Korea became a democracy. This is in sharp contrast to China, where the Chinese population don't even see the problem and are angry at the world.

In my opinion, accepting righteous criticisms, however much it hurts your national pride, is the right thing to do and is real patriotism. Hurling rocks and beating up innocent people is not.

TO TW, USA:

'KMT is Kuo-Ming-Tan, National Party in the Republic of China. '

KMT is Kuo-Ming-Tan, NATIONALIST Party of China ...Republic of China.

To Darden Cavalcade::

Chinese still remember the heroic Flying Tigers and the supports from USA during the WWII. We have ceremonies every year to remark those heroes from the USA. That's a reason that why majority of Chinese people have a very positive view about American people even after so many years of hostililty and the Korea War.

NOWORRY:

To Darden Cavalcade: China is thankful and will forever remember your granddad's service.

Darden Cavalcade:

TW, USA:

Grandad really was a Flying Tiger. He passed away many years ago.

His flying jacket is one of our family's prized possessions and is on loan to the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio.

TW, USA:

To: Darden Cavalcade

If your grandpa was really a Flying Tiger pilot, next time you fly to Taiwan or mainland China in a Chinese airline (China Airline in Taiwan, or Air China in mainland China), tell the pilot about that, they may make some phone calls for you and get you a good discount somewhere.

To KMT:

KMT is Kuo-Ming-Tan, National Party in the Republic of China. They just won a huge election in Taiwan. The DPP party losers are still fighting each other on who should be blamed for this failure. Both Republic of China and mainland China believe Tibet (should be called Xi-Zhang) is part of China.

han:

1.Dalai Lama himself does not support independence of Tibet but human rights' activists do. There are 53 ethnic groups in China. Human rights activists' agenda is to create 53 countries in China or repeat Yugoslavian experience in China with huge human loss.
2. Pro-tibetan protesters were not peaceful in China's Lhasa (China is diplomatically recognized by world as sovereign country) and outside of China as we saw from media their violent behaviour in Paris,London.
3. Olympic Games does not belong to China but to sportsmen who have practised so much for such an occasion. Those anti-China people are too selfish to promote their cause without regards to those sportsmen's years' hardwork.
4. It does not make sense to say so many overseas Chinese are brainwashed by Chinese government.
5. Chinese government does not send troops to other countries but was asked to be responsible for Dafur crisis. US was responsible for Iraqi democracy and we all know what reality is. Chinese government let tibetan monks demonstrate 4 days peacefully and only started interfering when demonstration turned violent. Majority of Chinese are supporting Chinese government on this issue. It is justified by Yugoslavian disintegration and Russian Chechnian war,in the process more hatred were created and peoples involved are not neccessarily happy.Only outsiders are happy. It is so true with current Tibetan cause that only outsiders would be benifitted from it. No wonder Chinese people are against it. I think Dalai Lama is wise enough to see through the result of western support for tibetan independence by ex-soviet experience.

NOWORRY:

Also some comments for my Chinese compatriots. We are complaining about the unfair coverage in the west media. But why should we rely on the western media to voice our point of view? Why can’t we have also our Reuters or BBC that provide information to the world? The problem is that Xinhua and CCTV do not have a good brand like Reuters or BBC. Because they have to constantly cater to the central Chinese government’s instruction. It is about time that we give the Chinese media the freedom to do their reporting. Sure it will take a few years for them to establish their credentials. But we should let them start, and start now.

Lance:

Hi, everybody,
please also check this page.
http://info.51.ca/news/society/2008/05/01/150478.shtml
Your comment is welcome!
The West contributes great values and ideas for all mankind. A lot of greatest peoples are from the West. But the greatest tradition is tarnished by some of the West media. Why not give people a complete view, and jump to conclusion?
In USA, any one who dare throw a bike to a cop? this man are very likely be shot to death on street in no time.

The West is a paradise where everyone should protect it, not tarnish it. True democracy is the one in which completed facts can be spread quickly and correctly without trimming and editing. Then with valid logic, people can conclude correctly.

A democracy without an honest media system is just a group of nice people lead by a tricky monster.

and here comes some pictures:
NOWORRY:

Now to the some safety incidents reported in US that are related to the Chinese origin. It is possible that the US companies and media exaggerated the safety issues related to the Chinese products. For example, when Mattel recalled many of their products, they lumped the product recall with lead paints and small magnet together. Sure all these products are made in China. But the products with small magnets are design problems, not manufacturing problems. Most of the toy design is done here in US. Therefore it is unfair to blame Chinese manufacturing for this. But why are we not thinking whether we have done everything to protect our interest? From China perspective, when we generating billion dollar worth of revenue on all the products we produce, why there is no government effort to set up a PR department to protect the China brand? That money would be well spent to make sure that we have our voice heard in US. And if in fact there is a problem like lead paints, this PR group should coordinate a rapid damage control to re-assure the US consumer. Close some factories, recall some shipments. Same apply to the more recent Heparin recall issue. There is simply no Chinese voice noticeable in US. We can’t just blame the US media. Do we have PR people talking to US media and coming to Capitol Hill and answer questions to the US law maker? Why are we not doing any of these?

Darden Cavalcade:

To KMT:

I have no doubt that unsafe products whose origin is China affect many more Chinese adversely than any other group. And American corporations, who are as rapacious as anyone anywhere, share the guilt.

Readers from South America should offer their comments on those who died or were made sick by Chinese products. You are right. Many more people in South America were injured than in North America.

My comments are not a defense of American corporations or Food and Drug Administration or the Product Safety Commission who are supposed to protect us from unsafe products. Sue, discharge, or jail them all! I'd be delighted.

If my tone is us-vs-them, I am in-line with the vast majority of comments to this blog, now numbering close to 500 responses by my count.

With the greatest respect,

Darden

PS Are you aware that the initials you've used for your ID are those used traditionally in America to designate the Kuomintang Party?

Lance:

Hi, everybody,
Please check the following website to see what had happened in Seoul.
http://info.51.ca/news/society/2008/05/02/150570.shtml
I really hope the West media can show people a complete view of what had happened. Because completeness of evidence is the basic recondition for correct conclusion.

George in Alaska:

Greg - Dalai Lama made mistakes on mistakes.he always caters to western powers's likings.Human rights,freedom or others.This makes Chinese people hate him so much and make the talk with Chinese government so difficult.Nobody around China supports or likes him.

Right there, in your own words, you not only indite China of Human Rights violations but basically treat them as only belonging to the "west" and not having ANYTHING to do with Chinese people. You also push aside freedom as though it is just an afterthought. Even in the US, our freedoms are limited by our laws, for we cannot do anything we want. But there are certain rights that we have, like the freedom to think what we want, say what we want, and believe what we want. In China, you can be jailed or killed for any of these. The extent to which you dismiss human rights - the right not to be jailed, tortured or murdered - and one's freedom is obvious evidence of the extent to which you have been brainwashed by your own country's propaganda.

The "west" is not perfect, but then again, you seem to perceive anybody outside of China as "the west", China vs. the World.


To all you "patriots":

As patriotic as you are, your very pro-china comments will never be seen inside China regardless how well the web is technically connected to the outside world. The ccp will undoubtedly try to filter out all contents that you see here, not to mention the article itself. Your patriotism just goes down the drain unappreciated. Don't you even question: what is the ccp so afraid of people talking?!

I just hope those pro-china (effectively pro-ccp) will eventually wake to realize that communications like what we have here is helpful, that is what freedom of speech all about, it is a vital sign of an advanced society (how much $ or ¥ we make; or how well we eat is not necessarily a good measure). Unfavorable comments aren't necessarily bad, they are just as good as the favorable ones. We don't want everybody with the same unified thoughts as the ccp always tries to do. Only through open and free communication, we can keep our calmness and gain wisdom.

Darden Cavalcade:

To American Chinese:

Oh, I understand perfectly well who was paying my grandfather's salary when he was a mercenary in China. He was very clear about it.

NOWORRY:

I am a Chinese from Shanghai. I have read many postings from China. My Chinese compatriots seem to be offended by Mr. Pomfret’s first sentence “Move over ugly American, make room for the ugly Chinese”. I met many Americans who will just laugh off the comments of ‘ugly Americans”. They will say: no big deal. We are the ugly Americans. I think we Chinese should accept the fact that sometimes we behave like ugly Chinese. So people will call us that way. In Korea, they throw stones and hurt people, no matter whether you are provoked or not, that is not right. Why can’t we accept that?

Darden Cavalcade:

Since there seems to be irritation with my first post . Here is a synopsis of a report that appeared in the New York Times this morning.

Virus Kills 21 Children in China

Beijing: A fast-spreading viral outbreak in eastern China has killed 21 children and sickened nearly 3,000 others in Anhui Province.

All of the fatalities have been children younger than 6, the majority under 2.

In recent days, the Chinese news media have heavily criticized the government response, offering comparisons to the SARS epidemic of 2003.

The World Health Organization warned Thursday that the disease could spread in the coming summer months.

The illness begins with fever and mouth ulcers. Blisters can form elsewhere on the body. In severe cases, brain swelling can lead to paralysis or death.

Health officials in Fuyang say that more than 700 children remain hospitalized, 36 in serious condition.

Although the number of infected children has steadily climbed, the fatality rate has dropped from 11 per cent in March to 0.2 per cent today, according to World Health Organization officials.

Among Chinese parents, there is still widespread concern and misinformation.

In mid-April, local Chinese officials denied there was a public health problem. Two weeks later, after more than a dozen deaths, they were forced to acknowledge the outbreak.

Four years ago, Fuyang was the center of a powdered milk scandal. Fake formula lacking nutritional value sickend 200 infants, and starved 13 to death.

american:

to chinese:

我很尊重您的观点。。。但是我觉得你的反应太敏感了。 有点像小孩子说, “i know you are, but what am i?" 事实上, 中国现在是大国。 大国受到国际的批评是不可避免的。 美国当然也污染环境, 结果政府受到了多少国内的人民和团体的批评? 历史上, 美国的人权问题也很多, 结果政府受到了多少国内的人民和团体的批评? 现在, 大多数的美国人讨厌美国打伊拉克的事情,不停地批评伊拉克战争的政策。不但是国内的批评, 而且是国际各方的批评。 不但是批评, 而且是国外恐怖团体的攻击。。。做大国, 偶尔好像无论做什么, 一直在受到某方面的批评。 但是这些引起批评的问题是真的存在的。 因为美国也有环境问题, 所以中国就没有吗? 因为美国也有人权问题, 所以中国没有吗? 因为美国也有某些威胁的政策,所以中国没有吗? 美国的媒体指出中国的一些国内的问题不是因为我们喜欢污辱中国的形象。 我们喜欢污辱我们自己的国家的形象吗? 当然不是。 我们在乎美国的实际。也在乎中国的实际。 也在乎中美关系的过程。 就是因为中国现在很重要。 解决问题以前需要分析问题。 分析问题以前需要承认问题的存在。

George in Alaska:

TW, USA - "When looking at a social activity in a far away foreign country, one must be very careful not to generalize the population. For example: If any Mexican viewer watches Lou Dobbs of CNN, he or she may think the whole American population want to start a holocaust against Mexicans, even if half of the American population do not support those radicals."

Please present a logical argument, nobody in this country wants a Mexican holocaust. All that the vast majority of American citizens, those who vote, is for jobs to go to Americans who deserve them, not to someone here illegally who will take the same job at a greatly reduced pay and with no insurance become a burden to the local hospitals, and every other form of infrastructure. Just ask someone from any of the border states.

Again, keep your logic intelligent and compare apples with apples, not oranges. The argument that you are making does not help the case of defending the Chinese people.

Running Dog :

I really feel for the high profile China commentators who write for the big dailies of America. Every word they produce is scrutinized and excoriated by these hyperventilating Chinese nationalists, who, I am beginning to think are not individual posters who happen to share a common jaundiced world view, but are instead a single frustration fueled robot deep in the bowels of Zhongnanhai, that scours the internet looking for dissent.

The most common reply. "Tibet has always been apart of China...blah...blah...blah.....One hundred years of humiliation...blah...blah...blah...we are dominating your schools so we can overtake you economically....blah...blah...blah...."
It is quite comical to see how uniform the comments are, with only slight variations in grammatical errors. Meaning the robot has yet to master the language, but undoubtedly will in time. My only suggestion for the robot would be to maybe try a new line of attack. Maybe comedy. Or a rap . Or maybe a haiku poem. How about interpretive dance. All of this earnest scribbling is wearing me out.

JiaMing:

Peter,

Just what did Ron Paul say that is so ridiculous? He is hardly on the news since six months ago. The media is playing god in this election as it always did. Why not let people hear all sides and make their own decisions? Hillary Clinton and Obama keep talking about their health care plans that cost at least hundreds of billions. Yet they never talk about how they will pay for it. John McCain used to be a respectable politician, but he became a demagogue because he had to or he would be called extreme by the mainstream media. This guy is talking about occupying Iraq for 100 years. How's that for ridiculous? Ron Paul was promoting a drastically smaller government. He won't get there even if he is elected president. But seeing every politician talking about a smaller government while it increases in size to record levels during every administration, Ron Paul's drastic talk may actually get this government a little smaller.

KMT:

Darden Cavalcade wrote,

“North Americans have been sickened or died from poisonous Chinese ingredients found in toothpaste, medicine, and toys. “

What you did not realize is that many Chinese had died from the same poisonous ingredients found in Chinese-made toothpaste, medicine, and toys before any North Americans died, many South Americans also died from the same poisonous ingredients found in Chinese exports. So you are only seeing things from an American perspective while the problem is really the unpleasant consequence of the rapid globalization.
The overall tone of your comments has a tinge of “us-against-them” mentality in there. It is not helpful to solving these problems. What need to be said is that a significant portion of these factories in China are owned by huge international corporations. For example, the contaminated heparin is made by a Chinese factory OWNED and OPERARED by an AMERICAN company (SPL). The Chinese air is being polluted for making consumer products sold in the U.S., with most of the profit going not to the Chinese workers, but going to American corporations and those CEOs. These are difficult issues to solve and China bashing is not going to solve them. As the manufacturing gradually moves from China to surrounding countries such as Vietnam and Thailand, you may have particulate from Hoinoi instead Shanghai, and lead-ladden toys from India, China bashing is not going to prevent those things from happening.

Anonymous:

To laowai

You are a gentleman with noble concept and idea. I solute you.

The question is WILL governments share?
And even if they will, HOW?

The only solution is : the whole world united as one village, no nations. could that happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am not holding my breath.

To Darden Cavalcade:

see, you still don't get it. Your grandfather helped jiang kai shek, not the communists.

I'm one of the appreciating American Chinese, but many, especially many of those on this blog are not willing to accept that fact. They don't seem to care what you do to help Chinese as a nation, they only want to be good boys of the ccp, like a "loving mother", as ccp brainwashes people from kindergarten. I'm not being sarcastic here Americans, that is how people are impressed with about ccp from very young.

TW, USA:

YESHI:

You said: "Americans are open people not ugly if you spend a few minutes with one."

You are absolutely right.

But, from outside, Americans are pictured as soldiers in Iraq, and as Blackwater mercenaries shooting at innocent people in Baghdad. Are these two pictures true? Yes. Do some Americans support them? Probably. Do they represent the whole, kind, America? No.

I think the same situation applies to those very angry Chinese youth who went after Grace Wang. And the above same three questions can be asked on Chinese. The answer will be the same.

When looking at a social activity in a far away foreign country, one must be very careful not to generalize the population. For example: If any Mexican viewer watches Lou Dobbs of CNN, he or she may think the whole American population want to start a holocaust against Mexicans, even if half of the American population do not support those radicals.

Peter:

Jiaming,

I am not a professional commentator, but I have listened to Ron Paul's speeches. The guy is a very nice country doctor, I am sure. But his notions regarding governance are ridiculous. Does his failure to gain a significant following really have to be a media conspiracy?

As much as one might object to Clinton and Obama's "fancy talking", they have spent a lot of time thinking about public policy and -- in contrast to Ron Paul -- it shows. That's likely why they gain more attention from the media.

Greg:

Pomfret'opinion about China is horrible.His comments about China reveals he is ignorant offensively and arrogant.(The western jounerlists and commentors are all so.)First of all,Tibet was not a country and is not an occupied country by China now.Since 13th century it belongs to China.Tibet had been having slavery since China goverment decided to eliminate the shameful and inhumane systerm.Because in 1949 China became a republican country.The slavery is completely unacceptable according to Chinese constitution.So
Chinese government talked to the Tibetan local government about democratization of old Tibet.Then the two spiritual leaders including Dalai Lama(the two religious titles were granted by former Chinese leaders.)agreed to the ideas and details of the whole process.And Dalai Lama got an important position in the new democratic government.But he didn't satisfy with the new role,because he(including the whole former noble class) couldn't own slaves any more and they couldn't live noble life.So in 1959,they conspired to rebel and failed then ran out of China.China's deployment of army in Tibet is a normal and legal conduct.Since 13th century every dynasty'leader had their own way to control Tibet.
And of course,the republic of China uses a new and modern way to control Tibet.By the way Chinese government deploy army in every city around China for defense need.

China don't limit Tibetan culture and religion.Buddhism is one of the main religions in
China.It is legal (Falun gong is illegal in China) and influntial.why do the Chinese government limit it?It is not reasonable.They never do that.Tibetan culture is very important and individual.Chinese government protect it and develop the tibetan culture including tibetan language.All Chinese people are curious about tibetan culture.They want to visit Lhasa.Not only foreign visitors like tibetan culture but also Chinese people like it.So,why do the Chinese government try to destroy it.They never do that.

The western coutries hate China for no good reasons.So western countries treat China in malice.They have been supporting Dalai Lama.Because Dalai Lama wants to seperate Tibet from China.He is a good enemy of China.This is just accurately what the western countries want. they always seek opportunities to harm China.Olympics is a golden chance for western powers and their "great friend or parnter"Dalai Lama to harm China.Dalai Lama is so stupid that he is willing to be used as a perfect tool to harm his country.He don't realize he can't rely on western powers to solve his problems:he is in excile and he wants to come back to China.He should remember one thing: He is a Chinese and he should rely on your sincerity and allegiance to China to solve his problems.Dalai Lama made mistakes on mistakes.he always caters to western powers's likings.Human rights,freedom or others.This makes Chinese people hate him so much and make the talk with Chinese government so difficult.Nobody around China supports or likes him.

Western powers and media,you all are so mean.Your malice to China make Chinese hate you all so much.The so called activists are so stupid and ignorant and ridiculous.You all know little about China and tibet even some of you haven't been to China or tibet.you just hear Dalai Lama's lies and villifications about China.Then you all protest on unreasonable ground.Chinese people don't support you and any person who knows China accurately and thoroughly doesn't support you,only Chinese enemies support you all and welcome those ridiculous protests.Activists,you should hear Chinese people,experts(Most western experts are fake) or check the truth out yourselves,and think about the truth carefully and seriously then make judgements.Or your ignorance really offend Chinese and make Chinese people ridicule you all activists.

Darden Cavalcade:

Jiaming:

I'm with you, friend. American news commentators are ridiculous and biased. It's why more and more Americans are sending messages on sites like this one.

Being A Chinese Myself:

It's funny to see how the majority of Chinese rests their claim on the economic term, arguing naively that money's all there is to the problem.

But then while it's maybe true that the cheapos produced in China has had benefited the American households; but same is true that it is the developed countries that gave China the opportunity to develop its industry. If anything, it is the West that has helped (and will continue to help) life the Chinese poor out of poverty.

Don River:

I would suggest that the best way to advance China's interest in the world is a massive investment in public relations education. If the number of PR professionals in China as a percent of its population equals that of the US, the voice of China will be heard and there will be no further issue of Western media bias. The only problem may be that every newspaper in the world will be flooded with press releases from China everyday, and their phones ringing off the hook.

StopBeingPuppet:

Discrediting the West does not make whatever China's been doing right. It only means we're all in it together.

Darden Cavalcade:

To Chinese:

Are the majority of the respondents on this site supposed to take your post seriously?

My grandfather was one of the Flying Tigers. He fought Japanese aggression against China until US entry into the Second World War.

Can you translate that into Chinese, Chinese?

jiaming:

The Western media has always been bias, not just on China, not just on foreign events, but on domestic reporting as well. The coverage of US presidential election is the most glaring example of the bias. From the very beginning, the media outlets have already decided who they want and gave a lot more air time to those candidates. Then you have regular commentators that constantly telling people that certain candidate's remarks are ridiculous as if they are speaking for the majority views. They eliminated most candidates by shutting them out or trashing their views on mainstream media. Since they have the stage all to themselves, whatever they say are the "truths".

Ron Paul, a moderate Republican candidate who is against the Iraq War, against American intervention in the Middle East including Israel and Palestine, and against government bailouts for the rich folks in the financial institutions spoke for the views of mainstream America. He enjoyed immense support from moderates and the younger groups who donated heavily on the internet. Yet he was not given the opportunity to promote his views. And when he did get a chance to speak to the mass audience, the commentators dismissed him as having the views of the "fringe" faction.

Thanks to the bias of the mainstream media, the candidates who are left to contest for the presidency like Hillary Clinton and John McCain are all demagogues who spent their lives perfecting nothing else but the art of deception. They are either self-serving monsters like G.W. Bush or career politicians who do nothing to make their country better. This happens on all levels of the US government and it is why people are fed up with the lack of leadership. China may be a dictatorship, but at least its leaders are mostly pragmatic doers, not fancy talkers.

To "AUSSIEBLOKE":

"...explain to me why should the average Chinese citizen, with not much to gain either way personally regarding Tibet, should react as if their house was on fire & their life depended on the outcome?"

Your observation is right on, you are a smart outsider.

Anonymous:

I have seen several comments here apparently from Chinese citizems congratulating their young people in other countries for attacking people in those countries its the democracy: For example:

"the chinese youth at least make it clear to the world that unlike the chinese government, the people of china is not going to be pushed around.......show the respect to the chinese first if you want to be respected"

I am a teacher in China and there are many foreign teachers here, and foreign students. If we feel our nations or nationalities or governments or cultures are being disrespected by Chinese people or the Chinese government , would it be right for us to attack your citizens? We would be arrested if we did, because we would be criminals.

Personally, I have not yet met any Chinese, especially not my students, who say going to another country and attacking its citizens because of disagreement with their political views is good.

It is indeed wrong to give the impression that all Chinese young people are violent unthinking arrogant fools who would go abroad and get into violent fights. Most are not; most are compassionate, thoughtful, intelligent, hardworking, idealistic and peace-loving.

So why do so many Chinese bloggers cheer the violent ones who commit crimes abroad instead of sticking to pointing out that the violent ones are a minority and not at all representative of Chinese youth?

If it is misleading of the Western press to portray the violent minority as if they were representative of the majority, it is also wrong for the bloggers to do exactly the same thing by congratulating and defending the violent ones.

In effect, you are saying : "Yes, the Western press is right: we Chinese are violent and do not care about the laws, we just attack those who challenge our views."

You can't have it both ways: either the Western portrayal is biased and Chinese youth are not violent and violence is neither encouraged or tolerated, or the Western press is exactly right.

Which is it?

Ugly Duckling:

The West (what ever that means) loves to trump the virtual of democracy. Let revisit the ugly history of democracy:
Slavery (Sorry America)
Colonialism (Europe or at least the countries that matters)
Holocaust (Hitler was popularly elected)
Gaza/West Bank (Power to the Israelites)
Agent Orange, Vietnam, Iraq (Sorry America again)
Environmental destruction (you so smug Canadians, Nordic dwellers, your community is clean but only at the expense of India, China, etc etc)
Massive amount of Porn (Germany and Japan, I love those sites)

If anyone thinks a democratic China may not lead to more repression of Tibet is naive. 1.6 billion vs. 6 million; you do the Math. As for Nationalism, why is it that Americans only refers to themselves as patriotic. Who decides? Ever been to a Red Sox game on July 4th? I doubt too many can tell the difference.

The anger in all these post is because we tend to see the world in a zero sum view. He wins means I loss. Hogwash. China's rise is good for America and the World. Stability and exchange of Ideas are great for China.

For those who loves using the term xenophobia should remember China imported all of the following that marks both philosophy and daily life.
Budhism
Communism
Daily Fashion
Music style
Oh speaking of Xenophobia, it reminds me of going to a Red Skin's Game in the mid-80's But that is for another blog.

Chinese:

to Darden Cavalcade:
不要老对中国吹毛求疵,中国的廉价商品帮美国人们抵御了通货膨胀,让美国人生活得更好。难道不是吗?中国有fenqing,但很多中国人也是friednly.如果你到过中国,你会对中国有更深的了解.
每个国家的政策总是会有被人批评的时候,Bush总统对Iraq的war不也遭到很多美国人和地球人的批评吗?难道American就perfect吗?
美国不也经常发生校园枪击案吗?美国也也有racialism吗?
现在Iran的很多武器不也是美国以前卖给它的吗.
你说到air pollution,我想问你一个问题,美国每年向大气中排放的co2多还是中国排放得多,中国1.3billions的人口排放的co2还不如美国多.

Fate:

I too was wondering why Chinese thugs surrounded the torch bearer in Paris. I don't think I've ever see thugs escorting an Olympic torch before. Police yes, but not self appointed thugs. This more than anything else showed me a side of the Chinese I thought was long gone. And what struck me even more was the Chinese government supporting thugs.

But I guess I should not be surprised. In China, like in many other nations, the state is more important than the citizen, and some citizens accept that and fight for the state to have its way over the individual. Just because China has reformed economically is no reason to believe they have reformed culturally. Chinese and Americans are very much alike as a people except for one profound difference, human rights. Americans believe the individual has rights, the Chinese believe its government has rights. In America, the state needs to prove someone harmed the state. In China the individual needs to prove they did not harm the state. And this attitude is historic and unlikely to change. It is cultural. And many Chinese take it to heart, willing to fight on foreign soil to protect the state and its "sacred tourch".

I would not have titled your article the "Ugly Chinese". I would have titled it has "Same Old China", exposing itself as unchanged since the emperors held sway over their own people, feeling beseiged by foreigners, and having the ability to do whatever they want to maintain face and appear strong. No matter the type of government, dynasties, communism or whatever they call it today, Chinese culture will always allow the state to have a free hand with its citizens and foreigners. We just need to understand that and posture ourselves accordingly. I'm not saying we should prepare to go to war or anything like that. Chinese culture is not expansionist or aggressive outside its borders. But the lack of respect for human rights, down to the level of the Chinese peasant needs to be understood. They are so much like Americans except that one glaring difference.

Page Girl:

In taking part in many of the Human Rights Torch Relays (www.humanrightstorch.org) I realized how deeply our country has been infiltrated by communist China. It is something we all should all take very seriously. Many of us working on the projects had our pictures taken by the “angry youth” and our computers hacked into, our phones both landline and cell tapped into and the final straw was when we had boxes of t-shirts sent out through our government USA postal service that were intervened and tampered with. This is no joke!

The saddest thing I feel is that these youth are being used by a evil communist regime as spies…A regime that would run them down again just like in Tiananmen Square if they stepped out of line. They are brainwashed (and most people are to some degree) and trained to hate anything that does not tow the Party Line. They are bribed and peer pressured by the Party. They are the saddest victims that need to wake-up quickly and see what they are really supporting. Because when the Party is gone where will they be?

Everyone please read the book that helped over 30 million Chinese quit the Party and what all-top officials in many countries are reading so you know what we are up against. Have no delusions the communist regime will never change it bloodthirsty lust.

ninecommentaries.com

Aussiebloke:

As a casual observer, I can see this is a very hot, emotionally-charged topic, especially between people from (who have lived in/experienced)China (and/or the surrounding regions), and outsiders with a limited knowledge of the history & the local public feeling/mentaility regarding these issues.

Just like a fiery spat between husband & wife, it's easy to get off the topic and start pouring out all kinds of unrelated criticism, past & present, on both sides, which doesn't do anything for meaningful discussion or further any insights into the other's reasoning/understanding, but promotes alienation and taking sides.

The main problem I see (as an outsider, yes, simply) is that Tibet is not been given the freedom to choose freely their destiny and have that choice honored by China, but rather is being bullied & "strongarmed" into a corner with only one option "for their own good". This is very basic, all the specific background, historical, political, cultural, regional, etc knowledge aside - WHY is China, (also reflected in its citizens around the world) so inflamed & insanely "hot under the collar" about Tibet that they would smack anyone with a 2x4 blank across the head who would say anything to the contrary? Are they so single-mindedly zealous to "help" the poor Tibetans that they "won't take no for an answer? :-) If it was decided that a referendum was to be taken among the Tibetans whether THEY wanted to be one with China, would China accept that and leave them in peace? Or, as always with any powerful nation, there are always other, less noble reasons ...........?

Just as with other post-war European countries under the former USSR (which my parents experienced first-hand) nobody wants to live with a bully waving a gun and forcing you to accept their terms against your will.

With all due respect I have for the Chinese, I still believe that communist mentality of dictating what its citizens should think & feel en masse must still be a major influence at work. That is, unless, someone could clamly explain to me why should the average Chinese citizen, with not much to gain either way personally regarding Tibet, should react as if their house was on fire & their life depended on the outcome?

Darden Cavalcade:

News reports from Asia this morning (2 May 2008) report that 21 Chinese children have died in the poorest province of China from a new viral infection that causes blisters to appear all over the body and the brain to swell.

International health organizations have expressed alarm that, like SARS and H5N1, the Chinese government's public health response has been slow, and its reports to world health organizations on the disease's parameters has fallen short of the international obligations China voluntarily accepted.

Chinese readers of this site will complain that I have never visited China. And they are right. I haven't. China has visited me.

A significant percentage of the particulate pollution in the skies of Los Angeles has its origin in China (coal-fired electric plants whose pollution makes its way to North America). North Americans have been sickened or died from poisonous Chinese ingredients found in toothpaste, medicine, and toys.

North American workers have been put out of work by Chinese factories employing prison labor and child laborers in violation of international law. China's government announced this week that it just closed a large factory-sweatshop employing young children.

Chinese students abroad--guests in the countries offering them protection under law--threaten, bully, and assault citizens exercising their rights of lawful assembly and peaceful protest. Chinese students don't like it when China is criticized.

If the 21st Century belongs to China, as one of the correspondents here has put it, then China deserves far greater scrutiny. And as we come to know China's government and its policies better, we likely will will not approve of what we see.

It isn't racism to complain about China's failure to enforce its own laws. It isn't imperialism to complain about the transnational impact of Chinese pollution.

It isn't unfair call China to account for its support for genocidal governments abroad. It isn't anti-Chinese to notice that China's economic policies in Africa impoverish local people.

It isn't Euro-centric to ask China to follow the rules the rest of the international community has agreed to follow.

China's century. Indeed.

Peter:

Wolf,

Use of "The Ugly American" is fine. Derived from a book in the late 50s, the phrase is shorthand for American boorish behavior and attitudes in regard to international affairs. As such, I may not like what it suggests, but I think it is a legitimate way to call attention to unsavory US behavior.

Is it any less legitimate to use the phrase "The Ugly Chinese" to call attention to similarly boorish behavior by nationalist Chinese youth?

Personally, I don't find the actions of the Chinese state, or overseas fen qing, nearly as disturbing as the insane ranting of some China defenders on this blog.

Charles Yen:

都唔明成班連中文都唔識睇唔識寫嘅人係到討論中國?配咩?