Comments (306)

To : A BUTTHURT Anonymous,

There is another word to describe "狗口長不出象牙 = Impossible to find ivory in a dog's mouth". The connotation is you cannot expect the bad guy can utter anything good.

Television networks that will broadcast the Beijing Olympics to billions around the world are squaring off with local organizers over stringent security that threatens coverage of the games in two months.
In response to the complaints from broadcasters, Sun Weijia, head of media operations for the Beijing organizers, asked them to put it in writing, only to draw protests about mounting paperwork.

"I think what I have heard here are just a number of conditions or requirements that are just not workable," said IOC official Gilbert Felli, according to minutes of the May 29 meeting obtained by The Associated Press. "There are a number of things that are just not feasible."

Despite the outburst, Sun asked again to have the complaints in writing.

"I just wish to have a kind of document to help me identify the key points," he said, drawing immediate protest.

"How many times do we have to do that?" asked Manolo Romero, an Olympic broadcasting official.

With time running out before the games open on Aug. 8, the minutes hint that procedures broadcasters have used in other Olympics are conflicting with China's authoritarian government. Some plans are months behind schedule, which could force broadcasters to compromise coverage plans.

The meeting in Beijing included representatives of nine broadcasters, each of which has paid for the rights to broadcast the Olympics. Top IOC officials and Beijing organizers were also on hand in what one TV executive termed an "emergency meeting."

Non-rights holding broadcasters — news organizations that have not bought TV rights to cover Olympic action at the venues — did not attend the meeting but also are concerned about delays and security restrictions.

"We are two weeks away from putting equipment on a shipment and we have no clearance to operate, or to enter the country or a frequency allocation," said Sandy MacIntyre, director of news for AP Television News. APTN is the television arm of The Associated Press.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jZQlFFurD2ZlbELDE_X1jGKo12vwD916119G0

TO BUTTHURT SICHUAN FAG_GOT..

there is an old word:

"stick your chinese words where the sun doesnt shine and stop to atack other people with your stupid lies."

To : Nasty Proud

* 80% of the building at the epicenter collapsed.

It's the old word in Chinese :
"To find solution is the way to success;
To put excuses leads to failure!"

Only inferior guy will pick the known issue among all happenings to stimulate people's psychological emotion when they were suffered from lossing relatives.

Jounalist are forebidden to enter into the risky area for simply the reason of potential risk of broken barrier lakes that the water will fill over the villages and the potential virus outbreaks.

Always quoted with reference to someone said is stupid. It's another old words in Chinese "Rumors stop by wisdom!"

China orders journalists to end negative quake coverage

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/2091084/China-earthquake--journalists-orderered--to-end-negative-quake-coverage.html

To : The Principal,

May I elaborate the actual meaning between "disaster" and "event" : -

Disaster is defined when an emergency situation posing significant danger to life and property that results from a natural cause. Natural Disasters and Catastrophes

Natural disasters occur when extreme magnitude events of stochastic natural processes cause severe damage to society. "Catastrophe" is used about an extreme disaster caused by natural forces rather than by human action, e.g. (floods, cyclones, tornadoes, blizzards, droughts, earthquakes and tsunamis etc..

In terms of "Tiananman Square", it is classified as the political event which is different from diaster. Event means something that happens at a given place and time with its cause and effect.

Political events occured in America that lead to never ending debates from people with different perspectives :-

Example One :
Kennedy was assassinated on November 22, 1963, in Dallas, Texas. Lee Harvey Oswald was charged with the crime and was murdered two days later by Jack Ruby before he could be put on trial. The Warren Commission concluded that Oswald had acted alone in killing the president; however, the House Select Committee on Assassinations declared in 1979 that there was more likely a conspiracy that included Oswald. The entire subject remains controversial, with multiple theories about the assassination still being debated. The event proved to be an important moment in U.S. history because of its impact on the nation and the ensuing political repercussions.

Example Two :http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_701610462/u_s_-iraq_war.html
U.S.-Iraq War, military action begun in 2003 with a United States invasion of Iraq, then ruled by the authoritarian regime of Saddam Hussein. The invasion led to a protracted U.S. occupation of Iraq and the birth of a guerrilla insurgency against the occupation. The resulting destabilization of Iraq also created conditions for a civil war to break out between Iraq’s majority Shia Muslim population and its minority Sunni Muslim population. In addition to attempting to quell the insurgency, U.S. forces also found themselves trying to police the civil war. By 2007 the U.S. war in Iraq had lasted longer than U.S. involvement in World War II.

U.S. president George W. Bush had openly threatened war for months prior to the U.S. invasion. Bush argued that in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks, Saddam Hussein’s regime posed a grave threat to U.S. security and peace in the region because of its alleged pursuit of weapons of mass destruction and links to international terrorism.

Will that be the man-made disaster for that as human being should try the best to avoid or take prevention rather than something being destroyed by the natural disaster that is beyond the human's control.

In conclusion, it's not wise to link the topic of disaster to another subject on political events. Then, it will lead to another debates of why more natural disaster occured in Africa and Asia with greater damages in terms of lifes and property. The population variation betwen the wealthy western versus the poverty in Africa & Asia and its geographic envornment is one of the factor that we believe people in Asia and Africa may have deeper understanding to distingush the "Disaster" vs "Event".

China urged to carry over quake openness to Tiananmen protests

http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=USPEK288605

To : Professor,

May I further elaborate the meaning you quoted :
"The biggest fear the Communist leaders have is losing control. As Mao once remarked, "a single spark — can start a raging forest fire." In Chinese "星星之火，可以燎原", it is an old and common idiom. The deeper of the meaning is not just purely interpreted from the words, but with higher level of extensive meaning.

"小火點可以引起燎原大火。語本書經˙盤庚上：若火之燎于原，不可嚮邇，其猶可撲滅。比喻小事能釀成大禍，或微小的力量，可以發展成強大的勢力。如：雖然大眾並不了解目前的作法，但星星之火，可以燎原，只要我們努力宣揚，前途一定是光明的
。The small fire point may cause the prairie in fire. In phrase book Shu Jing ˙ plate age: If fire which is the original source cannot be escaped but be probably to exterminate. Similarily, the minor matter may lead to catastrophe, or the small strength, may develop the greatest influence or power. Although there is no available solution, with the diligent effort, a little spark can expand, leading to certainly the bright future."

In Chinese way, it's not always politics, it's humanity; philanthropy and love from the leader by heart. This is exactely the highest spirite of human behavor to express the feelings which is exposed to melt the heart of Chinese that they call "Blood is thicker / richer than water 血濃於水; means the un-dividable relation and careness of love just like father and son; as close as the members in the family."

It's too sensitive to comment what the Beijing Leader acted recently is a fear, the greatest of all are their kindheartedness beyond responsibilities. Putting any political action and thought is based upon ethical thought through people's natural morality.

If the CCP dynasty is as successful as the previous Qing dynasty, then it will be around for another two centuries.

China quakes and the children die
New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman's book tells us "The World Is Flat." For the people of China,, it was crushed at 2:28 p.m. on May 12, 2008.

It is feared that the recent earthquake in China may be responsible for the death of 50,000, with a large percentage of them school-aged children.

Often when you witness tragedy far from home, it is sad, but distant. This tragedy has had a tight grip on my heart and has been up-close and personal. I have traveled to China many times since 1989. Cites like Beichun, Chendu, Chongquing, Wenchung and Mianyang, which sound far off and foreign to many, are where my friends and colleagues call home. What the people in these cities are feeling - pain, anguish and fear - is numbing.

After the quake, I spoke to my colleague and friend from Chendu, who was visiting Mianyang University where I serve as an honorary professor. He told me the central city of Mianyang was not hard hit, but the countryside was devastated. The local stadium is filled with the injured, homeless and childless. Many schools toppled, killing thousands of the "one family, one child" children.

Close to home
I was scheduled to be in China during this time - specifically in Mianyang, near the epicenter of the earthquake - when it struck. Fortuitously, I postponed my travels until the fall.

My Chinese friend spoke with pride about how his country is "doing whatever it takes" to help the people impacted by the quake. He pointed out that Premier Wen Jiabo, China's second-in-charge, is at the epicenter directing the relief effort and giving comfort to the people. He thanked the people of America for their concern and offers to help the Chinese people. He went on to say, like the Olympic theme, One World-One Dream, "everyone is pulling together to help in a time of need - but today we face a nightmare."

There are many Michigan connections to the area where the quake hit. Governor Blanchard signed a sister state/province relationship with Sichuan Province in the early 1980's. Michigan State University has faculty doing research at the Wolong Panda Reserve at the epicenter of the quake. Ford Motor Company has factories and employees in Chongquing and both Wayne County Executive Robert Ficano and Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson have built economic and educational bridges with this part of China.

Southeast Michigan is home to thousands of Chinese people. Multiple Chinese Associations have come together to join hands to ask their U.S. neighbors to help their families and friends back in China (see www.cagd.org).

As time passes, countless families will cremate their dead. It is never natural to bury your children. Children in China are revered as the 4-2-1 child (four grandparents, two parents and one, and only one, child). Parents lost their child. Children lost their parents and grandparents. Who will take care of those who remain?

The "Iron Rice Bowl" commitment of life-long socialist government support is gone. Losing a child, while painful at any time, takes on the extra burden of losing not just their child but their future. The only child for many of these rural Chinese people is their lifeline to a better future, along with being their 401k, social security, pension and Medicare - in short, their lives.

Eventually the pain will begin to subside - and anger is likely to emerge.

Initially, the Central Chinese government has been given good grades (especially juxtaposed to the negligence of the Myanmar officials after the cyclone) for the relatively quick response after the initial quake.

However, the anger at local officials for the "shoddy construction" of the schools that collapsed like decks of cards on their children is beginning to boil.

The biggest fear the Communist leaders have is losing control. As Mao once remarked, "a single spark — can start a raging forest fire."

The Tiananmen Square protest in 1989 was more than a march for "freedom and democracy." It was also - in a big way - a call for the end of "corruption by government officials."

Deng Xiaoping, the Chinese leader who followed Mao and is credited with opening China to the world, said, "When you open the window - all the flies can come in." With instant communication, video, cell phones, etc., the Chinese people and the world have watched this tragedy unfold literally before their eyes.

Will the Chinese Central Government respond in ways that produce "screens" that will keep the angry flies out - or could the worst earthquake that has hit China in 30 years expose vulnerabilities in the Chinese veneer? Like other natural disasters, most recently hurricane Katrina and the cyclone in Myanmar, these events have a way of exposing a great deal about the fabric of a country.

Blame will surely be assessed and harsh punishment will be meted out.

Yet the needs of the Chinese people will remain. Please give generously.

Give2Asia

Disaster Recovery Fund

P.O. Box 193223

San Francisco, CA 94119-3223

USA Phone (415) 743-3336

Fax (415) 392-8863

www.give2asia.org

Tom Watkins is a business and education consultant who does work in the US and Asia. He served as Michigan's State Superintendent of Schools 2001-2005 and Mental Health Director, 1986-1990. He can be reached at tdwatkins@aol.com.

To : American Observer,

We don't see any sense of mercy from you neither any mankind feeling as a human being extended on this tragegy which was classified as the natural disater; all you behaved just like a villain picking part of the society problem to criticize that we don't see you can contribute anything. All the problems are well acknolwedged and sure Chinese Authority and People will investigate the cause and effect. There were few hundreds thousands of buildings were collapsed not only the schools. That is to say China is still a poor country under development. Particularly those buildings are many funded by the charity with limited budget that of course revealed the reality of economic effect. Before there are any proven evidence found and judgement made; the priority for China and her people are still strgguling to rescue the rest and to migrate milions people from the dangerous areas that will be covered by the water right soon. Close to 40 dangerous barrier lakes caused by the earth quake that will soon be broken will cause uncountable damages.

For you to learn, there are thousands of stories from which many are so respectful value of human spirite with love, brave, sacrifices and wishes to draw their hearts unselfishly help each other and to unite Chinese all over the world extending their support hand in hand and heart by heart to enlightening SiChuan people with hope from their saddness and hopeless.

I will urge those with different perspectiv view on China has to learn the Kaizen model, there will be certainly teaching you on what is important for a paradigm change.

The Burmese junta is put to shame by China's disaster handling.

The junta is refusing foreign military aid for its cyclone victims for fear that it would signal the beginning of regime change.

I have learnt from Tibetans to respect the Nature.
In every meaning at every moment of the day. I have listen to scarying stories about the revenge of the mountain and so on.
I must say I thought it was all superstition but what happened is just a further confirmation.
There is not to blame just chinese for the rape of the territory, everywhere in Europe, US etc human actions have deteriorated the soil (e.g)rivers, forests......

We all know that the recent earthquake killed thousands of Chinese children in their classrooms, and we all know that those schoolhouses fell down because local officials accepted bribes in order to allow substandard construction. Nonetheless, some people on this board, including 'Thmak', have said that all of the schools that fell were built correctly, and none of the children died because of corruption. Nonetheless, the Chinese who live in the quake zone are filled with fury, and they are forcing the Chinese Communist Party to admit the truth. You can read more about it in the Washington Post article below.

I quote:

"School Collapse Furor Gives Rise to Contrition
Official in China Withdraws From Olympic Relay After Admitting Lax Oversight on Construction

Picking Up the Pieces

China continues recovery efforts after a devastating 7.9-magnitude earthquake hit central China on May 12, 2008, and rendered millions of people homeless.

MIANYANG, China, May 29 -- A local Sichuan province official has withdrawn from the Olympic torch relay after acknowledging that lax government oversight of construction may have contributed to the collapse of dozens of schools that killed at least 9,000 children in this month's earthquake.

Lin Qiang, vice inspector of the province's educational department, said the buildings might have been able to better withstand the quake's force 'if we educational officials hadn't left loopholes for corruption,' the government-run New China News Agency reported Thursday. Lin said he had to 'reject the honor' of carrying the torch.

Faced with mounting parent anger over their children's deaths, a government-organized team of building engineers has begun inspecting at least one of the devastated schools. At Fuxin No. 2 Primary School in Mianzhu city, investigators took photos of the ruins and samples of the tons of concrete and bricks that crushed to death 127 students, according to a parent who is monitoring the situation. "

Unquote.

You can read the rest of the article at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/29/AR2008052902762.html

thank you for the words of wisdom. It is good to see some enlightened words for a change.

Does it not seem however that there is a stronger impediment to achieving true happiness and progress these days than at any other time in history? Is there an external pressure being excerted on the whole that is being expressed in the people's increasing levels of fear and anger?

In the storm of life we struggle through myriads of stimuli of pressure, stress, and muti-problems that seek for a solution and answer. We are so suppressed by the routine of this every life style that most of us seem helpless. However, if we look closely to ancient techniques we shall discover the magnificent way to understand and realize the ones around us and mostly ourselves. If only we could stop for a moment and allow this to happen. May all beings be happy (Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu)
Eartquake in China ia a tragic incident. It may be due to the deeds against nature. Let Chinese authirities do justice to Tibetans and recognise Sri. Dalai Lama.
It is important to draw upon the high self, the He is, for guidance and inspiration. It is you, the highest expression of yourself. Everything in the universe like all other holy places, is a symbolic representation of processes that occur within yourself on the journey of enlightenment.

Kittie says:

"It's interesting how your comments have gradually progressed from facts and conclusions that actually had a somewhat strong base to insults about someone's English of all things."

American Observer replies:

Kittie, go back and read what I actually said. I never 'insulted' anyone's English. Instead, Thmak said I was not answering his question because I was afraid to answer it, and I replied that I was not answering his question because I could not understand it; and when Thmak called me a liar, I took the time to explain what was wrong with his vocabulary and his grammar. If that bothers you, I suggest that you stop insulting me and then go see if you can go back and translate his question into English for me. That would contribute a lot more to this board than your personal abuse has.

Condolences to victims of the earthquakes

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/05/20080512-1.html

Geeze, I can't believe I've wasted my time reading the comments. Some of these posts are really childish, though the one person that keeps standing out is "American Observer" It's interesting how your comments have gradually progressed from facts and conclusions that actually had a somewhat strong base to insults about someone's English of all things. Wow...talk about back-tracking. I did think that your first few arguments were sound and interesting, so could you please calm down, stop it with the insults, and go back actually debating? Whatever happened to common courtesy?

Sharon Stone has apologized for her "karma" remarks and feels "deeply sorry"

http://www.forbes.com/facesinthenews/2008/05/29/sharon-stone-china-face-markets-cx_po_0529autofacescan01.html

either you don't believe the world you live in is as alive as you are, or you don't quite understand the concept of kharma. Either way, to ignore the intent behind the event is to not learn the lesson imparted. Take benefit of this gift Earth has given you and don't worry about what others think or say, do the right thing and those who are wrong will melt away on their own. Antagonize and encourage them and you ensure that they will not go away. Counterintuitive, I know, but since you creatures don't have intuition, thought I might let you know.

To : Dragon Truth,

An open forum provides freedom to people urging others to shut up when something wrong totally foundamental wrong in concept by mixing everything together using wrong example (the victims)to revenge someone who hate. Such statement to use Karma to describe as the result after 60,000 people died in order to punish on their opposed political group? Let them hurt? What kind of a crazy concept ?
Sichuan Earth Quake is a NATURAL DISASTER which HAS BEEN coincidently happened during this period. It's been the long suffering in China history due to its wide geographical environment, people have been striving and struggling for survial as a result people spreading all over the places in China and move aboard for different reasons.

China has 56 races in which Tibet is just part of it. There are even few thoudsands of tribes living in Sichuan are suffered in the recent earth quake. The China Government has had a plicy to protect the individual culture, same on Tibet.

Tibet had long history with China back to 2000 years ago that you can find from :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet

The buddha was firstly introduced by WenCheng Princess during Tang Dynasty. Read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Wencheng

Americans deserved their freedom by winning a war of independence from British imperialism.

The activists can try to do the same thing if they dare, but don't expect to nag China into releasing Tibet.

I'm Still Standing says:

"....Chinese people are still here, and so is China's rule over Tibet.

What chance do the activists have of freeing Tibet? Absolutely nothing."

American Observer replies:

How courageous. An empire of more than a billion people has managed to dominate and oppress a nation of less than five million people. The Koreans defeated China and the Vietnamese defeated China, but the mighty Chinese have found a way to stand tall over the prone bodies of the Tibetans. All hail Chinese glory.

The earthquake's blow was equivalent to at least a few hundred Hiroshima bombs or many 9/11s. Yes, many towns were leveled and many people died. But Chinese people are still here, and so is China's rule over Tibet.

What chance do the activists have of freeing Tibet? Absolutely nothing.

Just Some Laowai says:

"I hope after the Dalai Lama dies the Chinese make a trumpet out of his thighbone and play a few tunes on it on CCTV in celebration of the "peaceful, holy" Tibetan culture..."

American Observer replies:

A lot of Chinese agree with you, 'Old Out.' That is why the Chinese are completely unqualified to rule Tibet, and that is why the Tibetans want the Chinese to leave their country.

Just Some Laowai says:

"The Tibet freaks are getting desperate. They are faced with a united people which refuse to be bullied by their temper tantrums..."

American Observer replies:

The Spanish said the same thing about the Mexicans, and the Russians said the same thing about the Poles and the Ukrainians. Nonetheless, a nation beaten to the Earth will rise again. The Tibetans will struggle and the Tibetans will endure, and the Tibetans will win in the end.

Sharon Stone(d) is a POS! Thanks a lot you idiot! 80,000 people are killed in Sichuan and you call it "karma"?! Karma is a meaningless concept in the first place (as if the vast universe "cares" about what happens on our tiny planet), but to speak so stupidly, it goes way beyond mere recklessness! I am so sick and tired of these Hollywood Tibet "activists" with their stupid little meetings and their precious Dalai Lama. Some of these fools can't even locate Tibet on a map! If theye are so interested in helping the poor and oppressed, how about Native Americans or our crumbling inner cities? But of course, that wouldn't be so fashionable and sexy as the precious Dalai Lama. I hope after the Dalai Lama dies the Chinese make a trumpet out of his thighbone and play a few tunes on it on CCTV in celebration of the "peaceful, holy" Tibetan culture (as if Tibet was some kind of paradise before 1951, yeah right).

The Tibet freaks are getting desperate. They are faced with a united people which refuse to be bullied by their temper tantrums, as if we Americans have any right to dictate morality to the Chinese. Grow up, Tibet freaks, and find some other cause to get all excited about.

I'm glad to see that Chinese movie companies will no longer be showing her films. Her idiotic remark should cost her big time.

May god bless her long life with 60,000 death...forever.

S he is a devil
H er stink is disgust
A udience will abandon her
R enascent witch
O fensive snake
N aive talk

Amen..

去天堂的路
The Road to Heaven

孩子，快
Child, hurry
抓紧妈妈的手
Seize mother's hand
去天堂的路太黑了
The road to heaven is very dark
妈妈怕你碰了头
Mother is afraid that your head is knocked
快，抓紧妈妈的手
Hurry, seize mother's hand
让妈妈陪你走
Let mother accompany you to walk
妈妈，怕
Mother, afraid
天堂的路确实太黑
Actually the road to heaven is very dark
我看不见你的手
I can not see your hand
倒塌的墙把阳光夺走
The collapsed wall snatch sun
我再也看不见
I never see it again
你柔情的眼眸
Your soft expression in your eye
孩子，你走吧
Child, you go ahead
前面的路
The road ahead
再也没有忧愁
It never has unhappiness again
没有读不完书
It never has endless study
和爸爸的拳头
And your father's fist
但孩子，你要记住
But child, you have to remember
我和爸爸的摸样
My and father's appearance
来生还要一起走
Also want to walk with you in next life
妈妈，别担忧
Mother, don't worry
天堂的路虽然有些拥挤
Although the road to heave is a lot crowd
但这里有很多的同学和朋友
But here there are many classmates and friends
每一个妈妈，都是我们的妈妈
Every mother, who is our mother as well
每一个孩子，都是妈妈的孩子
Every child, who is our baby as well
没有我的日子
The day without me
妈妈，你把爱给其他许许多多活着的孩子吧
Mother, You give your love to many alive child
我会记住你和爸爸的模样
I remember the appearance of mother and father
来生我们还要一起走！
We also want to walk together in next life

She was interviewed at Cannes la Croisette, not at the UN's in New York not even at some serious talk on TV. And...she is a (beautiful) actress not more than this.

Read the context chinks!
(Now she is in good company with R.Gere films banned from China)

Hey, boy who said hey 2 Dragon Truth!

Better naked butt than naked brutality! Sure Sharon can't keep her pants on but the Chinese Communist Party can't keep their claws off Tibet! I would rather look at Sharon's pretty ass than have to listen to your Red Guard propaganda! FREE TIBET!

hey kid, you don't expect us to take an actress who walks around without underwear seriously, right?

How dare anyone tell the rest of us to shut up! This site originates in the US, where we have freedom of speech. I know some of you Chinese cannot comprehend the meaning of this.

What did Sharon Stone mean by "karma"? That the CCP deserves the earthquake (no, not the innocent children or innocent people)--but I'm hoping the next big one takes down CCP by the thousand. They have amassed trillions of dollars and it's not enough for them--that money came off the backs of Tibet and Tibetans, and this is what Stone meant by "karma." That the CCP deserves every single bit of pain it may feel--though I doubt they feel a thing. Not the people. The murderous, vicious, thieving, massacring, torturing, and genocidal government of the PRC.

Yes, they killed those children in Sichuan, as surely as if they'd shot them in the back of the head--as they do political prisoners. Who is making money off the saleable organs and saleable babies? The CCP. The most brutal and repressive regime the world has ever known, when you count the dead of the last 50 years.

To : American Observor,

Stuban guy will wake up one day, and realize blind reading is your fatal problem to get prepare the new world that history may change.
You see people lost the interest in you but to ignore all your nonsense. Goodbye & good sleep.

A Han People In Canton says:

"Read http://www.historywire.com/2006/12/book_alert_the__15.html"

American Observer says:

I just read it. All this Goddard fellow does is repeat Gavin's thesis without a speck of critical reasoning of his own. Goddard does not offer any evidence to support Gavin's fantasy, and the questions that I have already asked have not been answered.

To : American Observor,

It doesn't matter the new or old, anything written with proof and supported by many others e.g. Paul Chiasson is worthwhile for you to explore..the possibility if anyone looks like Asian carried with chinese 遺傳因子gene without conscious. Paul Chiasson has his view published in 2006, he is a Canadian architect and author of The Island of Seven Cities: Where the Chinese Settled When They Discovered America, published 2006 by St. Martin's Press. In his book, he explains his thesis that Chinese voyagers settled in the Cape Dauphin area of Nova Scotia several years before the voyages of Christopher Columbus. He suggests that the indigeneous Mi'kmaq culture was influenced by these people, offering evidence in the form of possible archaeological remains, customs, costumes, art and other material culture.

Read http://www.historywire.com/2006/12/book_alert_the__15.html

I try to provide you more information but unfortunately, it's all written in Chinese that was blocked to this forum.

A Han People in Canton said:

"What you argued with reference to Gavin Menzies' finds of Zheng He' discovery was just an argument which cannot overturn the proof and the thesis made by Gavin. This is what I said as American you should explore more to check the NDA on the bones that Canadian plannned to do from the web http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/24/features/chinam.php?page=1 which is from the one of thoudsands supporters expecting the new proof."

American Observer replies:

Alright, I went to the link which you provided. I found that the web page was almost three years old; it dated from June 24 of 2005. You referred to DNA testing which was supposed to be done. I went to Google to find the results of those DNA tests, and there is no indication that those tests have ever been made. Why not?

A Han People in Canton said:

"Menzies' recent evidence has been found of what are believed to be wrecked Chinese junks in Florida, South Carolina, New York and Canada."

American Observer replies:

Your article was printed almost three years ago. Why are there still no photos of these wrecks?
Why are there still no artifacts?

A Han People in Canton said:

"More compellingly, Menzies says, a new archaeological site in Nova Scotia at Cape Dauphin, discovered by the Canadian architect Paul Chiasson and represented by photos at the exhibition, indicates an early Chinese settlement."

American Observer replies:

I went to Google.com to look that one up. The website for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation says, and I quote:

"No Chinese ruins in Cape Breton: archeologists

Last Updated: Thursday, July 27, 2006

Provincial archeologists are refuting a claim that Chinese explorers set foot on Cape Breton in the 15th century, long before the English or the French.

Cape Breton-born architect Paul Chiasson says he found ruins of a settlement while hiking on Cape Dauphin, on the eastern edge of the island.

He says there's a road, a three-kilometre-long wall that snakes down a hill and stone platforms, all of which look similar to Chinese structures.

In his book, The Island of Seven Cities: Where the Chinese Settled When They Discovered North America, Chiasson concludes that explorers from China built the settlement.

The claim was so provocative, David Christianson, curator of archeology with the Nova Scotia Museum, and four other archeologists headed out to the site to investigate for themselves.

They concluded there was no settlement at all.

'There really was nothing,' Christianson said. 'It's a high windswept plateau, cool temperature, very little soil. It wouldn't be possible for anybody to farm there.'

The archeologists say Chiasson's wall is really a fire break from the mid-20th century.

'It's pretty clear by looking at the profile of the wall that it's not a wall at all, it's simply earth that's mounted up,' said Christianson.

He said the road is not Chinese either, as other researchers in Cape Breton provided exact dates of when it was built.

The first part was constructed in the mid-20th century, Christianson said, 'but the major portion of the road was built as late as 1989.'

As for the stone, the archeologists say the clean surfaces suggest it was not cut at all, as would be the case if settlers shaped their environment.

'Everything we observed is either natural or mechanical, associated with road construction,' Christianson said.

Archeology is a field open to interpretation, he added, but it's also based on data. And in this case he said there is no data to interpret.

In the end, the five archeologists all agreed there was no human settlement in the area, Chinese or otherwise."

Endquote.

You can read the rest of the article at http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2006/07/27/capebreton-chinese.html

As I was saying before, the theories of Gordon Menzies are despised by professional historians all over the world. If you want to learn more about the Zheng He hoax, please go ahead to the web site at http://www.1421exposed.com/html/modern_exploration.html . This web site has a series of photographs of the 'ruins' on Cape Dauphin, along with plenty of photographs which show the 'Chinese' road during construction in the twentieth century.

To : America Observor ,

What you argued with reference to Gavin Menzies' finds of Zheng He' discovery was just an argument which cannot overturn the proof and the thesis made by Gavin. This is what I said as American you should explore more to check the NDA on the bones that Canadian plannned to do from the web http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/24/features/chinam.php?page=1 which is from the one of thoudsands supporters expecting the new proof. It's also mentioned that the map was originated by Kublai Khan - Chinese Emperor during the Yuan Dynasty. Many factors that were recorded to prove how the map was made :-

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96gedei_Khan During his reign, the Mongols completed the destruction of the Jurchen Jin empire (in 1234), coming into contact and conflict with the Southern Song. In 1235, under the khan's direct generalship, the Mongols began a war of conquest that would not end for forty-five years, and would result in the complete annexation of all of China. Mongol armies vassalized Korea, established permanent control of Persia proper (commanded by Chormagan) and, most notably, expanded westward under the command of Batu Khan to subdue the Russian steppe. Their western conquests included almost all of Russia (save Novgorod, which became a vassal), Hungary, and Poland. Ögedei's sons Kadan and Güyük attacked Poland and Transylvania, respectively.

Ögedei Khan had granted permission to invade the remainder of Europe, all the way to the "Great Sea," the Atlantic Ocean, and only his death prevented the possible invasions of Austria, Germany, Italy, France, and Spain, and the remaining small European principalities. Indeed, Mongol forces were moving on Vienna, launching a fierce winter campaign against Austria and Germany in the first wave into Western Europe, when Ögedei died. Some historians believe only his death prevented the complete conquest of Europe.

The Mongol expansion throughout the Asian continent under the leadership of Ögedei helped bring political stability and re-establish the Silk Road, the primary trading route between East and West.

2) Marco Polo travelled to China with his father and uncle over the Silk Road which was an overland route to China. He worked for Kublai Khan, the Mongol Emperor, for seventeen years. He sailed home instead of going overland. He brought back ivory, jade, jewels, porcelain and silk. He told about the Chinese use of coal, money and compasses. He met Rustichello, a famous writer, who wrote about Marco Polo's travels in a book called THE BOOK OF TRAVELS.

(I made the assumption was that the source of the map was spread over to Europe from Marco Polo along with so many precious materials, information and tresures from China.)

3) In the later version of Menzies, who is planning to revise his book by 2007 in light of the latest evidence, now believes that Zheng He was not the first to sail to America. "One of the mistakes I made in my book was to say that Zheng He did everything. He had a legacy. Most of the world had already been mapped by Kublai Khan's fleet," he said.

4) Menzies' recent evidence has been found of what are believed to be wrecked Chinese junks in Florida, South Carolina, New York and Canada. More compellingly, Menzies says, a new archaeological site in Nova Scotia at Cape Dauphin, discovered by the Canadian architect Paul Chiasson and represented by photos at the exhibition, indicates an early Chinese settlement.

Chiasson, in an e-mail interview, said, "The position of the wall on the side of the hill (not the summit), the layout of the wall across the hilly topography and the relationship of a small settlement located within the wall to the overall enclosure all point away from a European origin and appeared to point to a Chinese origin."

Read more before you denied the great possibility to rewrite the world history from http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/24/features/chinam.php?page=2.

Thmak says:

"If you don't understand my post, just simply say so and don't reply. Replying my posts in detail indicates you understand my post, contradicting your assumption."

American Observer says:

Thmak, as usual you don't make any sense. When you say 'my post,' what do you mean? Like most Chinese, you don't understand the English concept of plurals, so we cannot be sure whether you mean 'all of my posts,' or 'the one particular post about which we are arguing.' You are also incapable of understanding tenses in English. When you say 'you don't understand,' I cannot tell whether you mean 'you did not understand that post about which we are arguing' or if you mean 'you never understand my posts.' When you say 'indicates you understand my post' I cannot tell if you mean 'you usually understand my posts' or if you mean 'you understood the post about which we are arguing.' Finally, you really need to go to a dictionary and look up the word 'assumption.' In this case, in context I can guess that when you say 'assumption' you mean something like 'argument' or 'statement'; but you should understand that the word 'assumption' has a completely different meaning than the word 'argument.'

Do you understand anything that I am saying? Your English is terrible. You do not understand tenses, you do not understand plurals, and you seem to pull your vocabulary out of a hat. Usually I can figure out what you mean because I know Chinese culture a thousand percent better than you understand American culture. I spent three years living in China, and I spent three years listening to the kind of broken corrupt English that you use, and I know the basic assumptions of your culture anyway, so I can usually figure out what you mean despite your incompetent English.

In this case I cannot. So, if you have time, please deign to explain what on Earth you meant when you said, and I quote:

"To American Observer: If you are that knowledgeable about China, you must know that China has more than 50 different nationalities, each has her own customs and dialects. If you can fantasy that Quandong and Fujien original cultures were replaced by some China emporer, then the original cultures of those nationalities must have similarly been replaced for the same reason. Inventing 50 more different cultures is an immense intellectual task in that ancient period, unheard off in human history. China is renowned for recorded history and these empirical feats must have been honorably recorded. Therefroe, it is impossible that there is no historical record of even one of the undertaking."

Unquote.

Thmak, why do you have so much time and energy to whine that you are being mistreated, but so little time and energy to improve your arguments?

Finally, if anyone else here understands Thmak's gibberish, will you please explain it for us?

To Tothmak: "However, the occupants of these buildings survived. This proves that some buildings are better built than others in the same area.". It is always the case that some buildings are better built than others, just like cars. But how the tremor of an earth quake destroys any building depends on a lot of factors, not just the building quality itself alone. That means any unfallen building do not means they are better built. Looking up the information in wikipedia about the destruction caused by earth quakes of magnitude 8.0, I found lots of fallen buildings. Are those buildings built through bribery? If there are no earth quakes, buildings don't fall and no people get killed. A rebuke to your "The earthquake by itself will not kill.
It is the falling rocks and buildings that kill.". "The real reason may not be due to bribery, but to blame everything on the earthquake is not doing justice to the families of the dead students.", but blaming everything on bribery is not doing justice to the government either. It so happened that the schools are multi-stories instead of single story like in USA and have the highest concentration of people than any building when the earth qauke hit. So the deaths are more numerous and brutal because children are the dearest to every parents.

To American Observer: If you don't understand my post, just simply say so and don't reply. Replying my posts in detail indicates you understand my post, contradicting your assumption. I hope you understand.

Thmak, As we say in America, 'it will be a cold day in Hell' before someone like you gets to tell me that I am 'lying' about anything, at any time. if you have something to say, say it in clear English; and if you cannot write English clearly, get someone to help you; and then, when you are done, put your argument on the board. You can feel sure that I will answer it as decisively as I always do. Until then, you simply do not have enough credibility to complain about the way people treat you.

To American Observer: You have run out of rationals in your argument and have resorted to emotional outbursts, like a deranged child, to cover up your ignorance. It is unimaginable to observe that an educated person like you can so arrogantly self-proclaim "intelligent people like myself." and that you can have such a low morale and unbecoming upbringing to curse people "crazy stupid worthless people like you."," down like a monkey,". Now you understand who you are.

Excellent commentary American Observer, keep up the great posting.

I don’t think your posts are anti-Chinese nor do I think you are disrespecting Chinese culture.

It’s interesting to observer the behavior of all the Chinese nationalists here refusing to give up even an inch on their one dimensional, narrow-minded view points.

We are hearing more blather about Gavin Menzies. Friends, real scholars have been greeting the theories of Gavin Menzies with a mixture of polite skepticism and open ridicule. If you want to see some of the polite skepticism, go to http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04EFD81E30F931A35751C0A9659C8B63&scp=1&sq=%22Gavin+Menzies%22&st=nyt . If you want to see some of the open denunciations, go to http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0123_060123_chinese_map.html .

Thmak says:

"To American Observer: You have been answering my posts for sometimes. So don't lie that you don't understand my post and don't excuse yourself for not understanding my post. You don't try to answer my post because you simply cannot face the fact that you are utterly talking nonsense."

American Observer replies:

Thmak, there are two kinds of people in the world. There are intelligent people like myself. When someone tells us that he does not understand our post, we sit down and explain it again. You have seen me do that several times on this board. On the other hand, there are crazy stupid worthless people like you. When someone tells a person like you that he does not understand his post, a person like you waves his finger in the air and starts hopping up and down like a monkey, shouting 'So don't lie that you don't understand my post and don't excuse yourself for not understanding my post.' Instead of revealing your complete lack of human dignity, why don't you just rewrite your post?

To : Min People in Fujian
You referred to different messages that what A Han People in Canton addressed is on the Zheng He's case that his fleet didn't rule or attack.

Along the long history of China, people around mainland China had its great assimilation due to whatever reason.
MIn, if you are a Chinese, do you recognize your race are different from the Mainland?

The Sichuen area is one of the origin of Han people. Menchuen is the village which was seriously destroyed from this 8 degree earthquake, it's going to be floated full of water. People will then run for survival spreading all over to different places. Without the boundary, people spread and expand to other places..

The greatest is the assimilation of Chinese culture sustains....with long history..

"The buildings that didn't fall don't mean that they are habitable."

However, the occupants of these buildings survived.

This proves that some buildings are better built than others in the same area.

The earthquake by itself will not kill.
It is the falling rocks and buildings that kill.

The real reason may not be due to bribery, but to blame everything on the earthquake is not doing justice to the families of the dead students.

To : American Oerserver,

No matter how you keep your head mistakenly unturn 執迷不誤 on the fact that Chinese people have been living in Guangdong and Fujian; where are those native people come from? Several reasons are due to natural disaster, migration and wars etc.. people integration together and have never denied they are ruled by Chinese. Another factor is since Qin Dynasty, the unification included Guangdong, Fujian even Taiwan in Qin's entire boundary.

One of the Chinese culture that suceeded over 5000 years is back from the written history since
The Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors (Chinese: 三皇五帝; pinyin: Sānhuáng wǔdì; Wade-Giles: San-huang wu-ti) were mythological rulers of China during the period from c. 2852 BCE to 2205 BCE, which is the time preceding the Xia Dynasty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sovereigns_and_Five_Emperors

Your thesis about the name or Jones, Gordon are commonly named for Africian- American is different from Chinese never changed their names and forget the roots or forced others to follow others to change their races or to ruin their original belief. Obama is the American but stil can trace where is his origin. Where is the origin of the American Indian (that we don't use Indian-American) is because they are the native citizen will be an interesting subject to explore...

@ A Han People in Canton,

"Chinese didn't rule, attack or steal the native people's wealth & property, instead the tribes will be integrated because of its culture and concept which is harmony first"

Actually during the warring Three Kingdoms period, the great strategist
Zhuge Liang (Hidden Dragon) expanded the territory of China southwards by defeating the southern aboriginal tribes of Meng Huo. These tribes have since been integrated and lost their original culture.

Zhuge Liang's Southern Campaign
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Liang's_Southern_Campaign

To : American Observer
Can you explain the facts that Cheng Wo(Cantonese punounciation) & Zheng He (Mandain) was the earlier pioneer discovered America 70 years earlier than Columbus ?
Former submarine commander Gavin Menzies in his book 1421: The Year China Discovered the World claims that several parts of Zheng's fleet explored virtually the entire globe, discovering West Africa, North and South America, Greenland, Iceland, Antarctica and Australia Europe).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

More from Gavin Menzies :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies
http://www.islamicity.com/articles/articles.asp?ref=IC0301-1843
One of the good reason that you can find if you read thothoughly is because Chinese didn't rule, attack or steal the native people's wealth & property, instead the tribes will be integrated because of its culture and concept which is harmony first.

To American Observer: It is nonsense to say that "the children died because officials of the Chinese Communist Party took bribes from contractors who made greater profits by allowing substandard construction". I mentioned in previous post to you about the destructive force of 8.0 earth quake on buildings. That kind of earth quake can destroy any building not designed to withstand that magnitude. The buildings that didn't fall don't mean that they are habitable. There are all kinds of buildings that fell to the ground besides the school buildings. The buildings that fell don't mean that they were all built through bribery. So you are talking nonsense. I hope you understand.

To American Observer: You have been answering my posts for sometimes. So don't lie that you don't understand my post and don't excuse yourself for not understanding my post. You don't try to answer my post because you simply cannot face the fact that you are utterly talking nonsense.

To American Observer:

No, that is good, I thank you for your honesty. I personally believe that, in time, China will move towards a democracy, much like the West developed, through hardship and toil to build a liberal system that can reconcile the Chinese need for social harmony without restraining the Chinese spirit. My main thesis was never that China will move towards democracy on its own in a vacuum bubble, I fully recognize that democracy is a Western invention, but that it will be up to the Chinese people to IMPLEMENT a liberal system in their own country. Their actions may be influenced by Western ideologies, but it is still by their own actions. Western nations are only successful as their soft power allows (barring a full-scale military invasion and regime change). It is easier to teach than to do.

Can you tell me for a fact that you have NO faith in the Chinese people? Does the ever-growing movement against corruption and social injustice mean nothing to you? I seem to recall that the Tank Man was Chinese, and so were the other protesters at Tiananmen. The Chinese people are lied to, oppressed, and indoctrinated everyday, yet we see millions of them rising up and act on their own conscience, and yet you claim that the Chinese lack a democratic soul. The common man in China does not need the mind of Locke to know what is best for himself.

You overestimate the powers of outside bodies to directly control social change in China. I admit that foreign governments and NGOs do help, but they are reactionary entities being energized and pulled by the will of the Chinese people. But in the end they are not going to be the ones moving mountains and shaking the heavens in the Middle Kingdom. When the times comes, it will be a CHINESE democracy.

Most readers are aware that the the recent Sichuan earthquake struck during school hours, and most readers understand that tens of thousands of school children died. Few of these deaths were true 'accidents'; instead, the children died because officials of the Chinese Communist Party took bribes from contractors who made greater profits by allowing substandard construction. I have already quoted an article from the Washington Post which quoted the fury of Chinese parents who lost their children to corruption. Here is article from the New York Times which shows the same thing.

I quote:

"DUJIANGYAN, China — The earthquake’s destruction of Xinjian Primary School was swift and complete. Hundreds of children were crushed as the floors collapsed in a deluge of falling bricks and concrete. Days later, as curiosity seekers came with video cameras and as parents came to grieve, the four-story school was no more than rubble.

In contrast, none of the nearby buildings were badly damaged. A separate kindergarten less than 20 feet away survived with barely a crack. An adjacent 10-story hotel stood largely undisturbed. And another local primary school, Beijie, catering to children of the elite, was in such good condition that local officials were using it as a refugee center.

“This is not a natural disaster,” said Ren Yongchang, whose 9-year-old son died inside the destroyed school. His hands were covered in plaster dust as he stood beside the rubble, shouting and weeping as he grabbed the exposed steel rebar of a broken concrete column. “This is not good steel. It doesn’t meet standards. They stole our children.”

There is no official figure on how many children died at Xinjian Primary School, nor on how many died at scores of other schools that collapsed in the powerful May 12 earthquake in Sichuan Province. But the number of student deaths seems likely to exceed 10,000, and possibly go much higher, a staggering figure that has become a simmering controversy in China as grieving parents say their children might have lived had the schools been better built."

Unquote.

You can read the rest of the article at http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/25/world/asia/25schools.html?hp

FarkLOL says:

"Do you believe the Chinese people are capable of bringing democracy to China themselves?"

American Observer replies:

FarkLOL, I answered that question a week ago. What I said was:

"Actually, the future will be like the past. The democratization of China will occur because the Chinese people and foreign governments and outside organizations work together."

If you need me to explain that more slowly, I will.

FarkLOL, the Chinese are proud of how far they have come in the last two hundred years. The Chinese have a right to be proud. However, it is important to remember that the Chinese have achieved nothing in those two hundred years without copying the West or getting help from the West directly. The Ching Dynasty used to blather about using 'Western technique and Chinese essence,' and then the Ching Dynasty built Western battleships which the Japanese blasted into pieces because the Ching commanders were either incompetent or actually stole the money meant for the navy. Mao Zedong talked about using China's unique heritage to make a Great Leap Forward into the future, and when that killed fifty million people, Mao said that China would create a unique future by achieving a Cultural Revolution, and even Thmak and Chinese Observer know how that came out. Every time the Chinese have tried to do things their own way, the Chinese have either failed grossly or or the Chinese have failed grossly and beaten their mothers to death and eaten their pwn babies. Building the future 'by themselves' has never worked before.

Can the Chinese bring democracy to China by themselves? I hope so, but I don't believe it. The Chinese did not establish their own university system; instead, China's modern university system is built on the universities which the missionaries built. China's hospital system is built on the hospital system that the missionaries built; and the first railroads and factories were all built by foreign businesses. Then, when the Communist era was finally ending, the Chinese had to allow more 'joint ventures' to get those factories and transportation systems going again.

Lord knows I could go on. China's 'economic miracle' is only possible because the Pax Americana has ended China's wars with most of its neighbors, such as Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan, Japan, and Russia; and China's marvelous trade surplus only exists because of the trading system that America created with the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and now the World Trade Organization.

So, can the Chinese create something as complicated and difficult as democracy without foreign guidance and assistance? Personally, I don't think so, because the basic concepts of democracy are so alien to Chinese culture. For example, Democratic thinkers see the world as a clash of systems, and democratic thinkers believe that good systems create good people, and bad systems create bad people. The Chinese have a very hard time getting this. Instead, the Chinese claim to believe that the world is divided between 'kind' people and 'unkind' people, but even that is usually more sophisticated than the usual way the Chinese actually operate, which divides the world between 'friends' and 'enemies', just as savages do. Even now, many Chinese cannot understand why their 'American friends' support the rise of Chinese science and industry while opposing Chinese colonialism in Tibet and East Turkestan. It is also hard for the Chinese to understand why 'Freedom of speech means freedom for the thought we hate'; instead, the Chinese are baffled that America simply does not throw what is left of the Klan in jail. Indeed, the Chinese also think it is normal and natural to lock up non-violent resisters such as Wei Jingsheng or the protesters at Tianmen. Hundreds of millions of Chinese believe that peaceful resistance is the same as violent resistance; as you have seen on this board, many Chinese think that the 'evil' Tibetans have 'attacked' China, just as Hitler claimed that Poland had 'attacked' his own German state; and some Chinese really believe that being denounced by a political rival is exactly the same as being shot by that political rival. I spent three years living in China, FarkLOL, and I saw many Chinese react like this with my own eyes and I assure you that nothing that you or anyone else can say on this board will make me forget what I saw with my own eyes.

So, can the Chinese achieve democracy without help from foreign governments and non-governmental organizations? Personally, I don't think so; but whether China can or cannot is purely an academic question, because there is zero chance whatsoever that Western governments and non-governmental organizations will simply stand by and let the Chinese 'create their own future' the way the Chinese did during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. No matter what the Chinese Communist Party wants and no matter what this Chinese nationalist or that Chinese opinion poll says, there is no chance whatsoever that the people of the West will simply stand by and watch another Tiananmen massacre, and there is no chance that the West will do nothing while Chinese activists organize for political reform. There will always be broadcasts from the BBC and the Voice of America, there will always be refuges for fleeing demonstrators, and there will always be representatives from the state department trying to free this dissident or that reporter. Above all, there will always be Non-Governmental Organizations working directly with Chinese in China and Chinese who are overseas. Since that will never change, why on Earth do you continue to keep asking what might happen if it does change?

Now, was that answer clear enough, or should I simplify it further?

No need to garnish Tibet occupation with dubious historical reasons or pretext to modernize the natives.

Just be as proud as Caesar:
Veni, vidi, vici

To American Observer,

I noticed your provokative remarks on my intelligence. But you failed to respond to my arguement. See for yourself and don't forget to read the Chinses below those pictures.

http://cul.news.tom.com/1009/2005926-22918.html

More information about Tibetan women when Dalai and his predecessors ruled:

http://info.tibet.cn/newzt/rsxzzt/xzfn/zzcy/t20050615_36874.htm

To serve your need, here is my translation. Quote: It was written in the laws of Old Tibet that "women are not to be granted the right to discuss state affairs". Those laws also stipulated that women are to be treated as servants if not slaves in their families. To the Tibetan slave owners, women are their property which could be sold and given away just like animals.

Unquote. I will be very glad if you could prove me wrong. And I also wonder where this Tibetan Women's Association is when their sisters were abused just like African American women were abused by their white masters.

Chinese posters here like to say their communist system is good.

But communist theory is'nt an Eastern invention.
It's a European import.

Even Russia has abandoned communism.
(Though currently Russian democracy is a joke)

Well, I guess you guys have proven it for me.

the human race is a species of petty squablers stuck in the past and blaming each other and refusing to accept responsability and enact meaningful change that benefits the whole. Therefore, it is useless to try and save such a dismall group of hairless apes, particularly since they are incapable of stopping the fight against each other and recognize the true enemy. The protectors of earth have been corrupted into destroying their homeworld. In order for her to protect herself, she must eliminate her children. You think the earthquake was something... wait till you see what's coming next.

To American Observer:

I was under the impression that the scope of our discussion was limited to the issue of democracy in China and it's people, not Tibet. Chinese Observer baited you into the topic of Tibet, not me, don't expect me to reply to someone who was not addressing me personally. If you want to debate about Tibet, fine, we can have a serious discussion on the issue, but in some other thread, some other time. But in this thread, it is off-topic, because I don't see Tibet mentioned anywhere in the article. Stop stalling, stop going off tangent, and answer the original question I posed several posts back (that is completely relevant to this topic):

Do you believe the Chinese people are capable of bringing democracy to China themselves?

TO American Observer:

Melvyn Goldstein, William Siebenschuh, and Tashì-Tsering, The Struggle for Modern Tibet: The Autobiography of Tashì-Tsering (Armonk, N.Y.: M.E. Sharpe, 1997)

“…. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common practice for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeated childhood rape not long after he was taken into the monastery at age nine.”

In case you wonder who Prof. Goldstein is, he is a renowed historican on Tibetan history, and the director of Tibet Research at Case Western Resrve Univ.

Also, some branches of Tibetan Buddhism consider heterosexual intercourse between a Lama and a female believer as a type the spirtual practice.

FarkLOL says:

"One post you talk about the Chinese as thoughtful and peaceful people who would function well in a direct democracy (1). The follow-up post you paint the Chinese as monsters and bigots(2). How do you expect me to respond when your argument swings from one extreme to the next?"

American Observer says:

I expect you to respond with thought and effort, FarkLOL; but instead you are obeying the first law of shallow debate: if you have nothing to say yourself, look for 'contradictions' and 'hypocrisy' in what the other person says. If my arguments are still too complex for you, let me try to simplify them.

FarkLOL, one of the most basic tenets of all democratic reasoning is that most nations and races are capable of ruling themselves, but few races and nations are capable of ruling other nations or races. The reason is that most people are able to understand their own circumstances and needs, and most people are motivated to seek what is best for themselves; however, few people understand the circumstances or needs of other people, and few people are motivated to seek what is best for others. For example, most historians would agree that the Spanish ruled Mexico very badly, but that does not prove that the Spanish should throw away their own democracy and allow a Communist Party to control Spain itself. The Spanish were not able to lead Mexico well, but the Spanish have been leading Spain quite well. By the same token, the Japanese ruled China very badly, but the Japanese have used democracy to rule themselves very well. The Japanese dictatorship was vicious and irresponsible in China, while Japanese democracy has been very constructive and benevolent in Japan.

Let us address the question at hand. Most Chinese people understand the life of their town or county very well. If China had a free press and independent political parties, then the free press and independent parties would provide information about the rest of China, and the Chinese would be better able to understand the life of their own provinces and their own country as well. Unfortunately, the Chinese are kept in ignorance by the Chinese Communist Party, which blocks foreign media and the internet and their own press precisely to keep the Chinese people from learning. So, I continue to maintain that the people of China are ready for to rule themselves; and I continue to maintain that the best preparation for democracy is democracy itself; because the present system of 'tutelage' allows the Chinese Communist Party to block the information which the people need to make informed decisions.

Now, let us address a very different issue, and that is the issue of Tibet. The Chinese are ready to rule their own country, but the Chinese are not ready to rule Tibet, and the Chinese will never be ready to rule Tibet. The reason is that the people of China will never understand Tibetan society and culture, and the people of China will never put the well-being of Tibet first. Instead, the Chinese will continue to view Tibet the way that the person who calls himself 'Chinese Observer' views Tibet, as we have seen on this board; and the Chinese will continue to try to impose their own 'enlightened' culture on Tibet, just as the Chinese will continue to steal Tibet's natural resources. If you want me to bring this closer to home, the fact that I support democracy in America does not mean that want America to rule Mexico, and the fact that I support democracy in Mexico does not mean that I want Mexico to rule America.

So, in short, I continue to support two policies: democracy and decolonialism; and there is no contradiction between these two policies. I continue to say that the people of China should choose their own leaders, and I continue to say that the people of Tibet should also choose their own leaders, without interference from the Chinese empire.

Do you get it now? If not, I will try again and make it even simpler. And then, when you finally understand what I am saying....

....Respond to the statements of your colleague, who calls himself 'Chinese Observer.'

Okay?

American Observer:

There is nothing I would say that you haven't said already. One post you talk about the Chinese as thoughtful and peaceful people who would function well in a direct democracy (1). The follow-up post you paint the Chinese as monsters and bigots(2). How do you expect me to respond when your argument swings from one extreme to the next?

You claimed that you lived in China for years with ordinary Chinese people, and came with the conclusion of arguement (1). Yet, one post by this "Chinese Observer" and you turn a full 180 degrees on the Chinese people. What, did one troll post on an internet forum shake your faith in the Chinese people and Chinese democracy? Do you throw away your "many years experience living in China" because of one crazy guy on the internet, or was that all made up?

I may not agree with everything you said, but I used to respect you because your arguments were well written. But the way you debate, the way you contradict yourself from one post to the next, the fact that you would rather throw around childish names than discussing anything of substance really makes me question your credibility. Which is unfortunate, because I could tell you spent a lot of time and effort writing those long paragraphs. Now they just seem meanlingless and empty.

my my, how prolific you are.
so many words. so little to say. You switched your senseless discussion to this other page in order to drown out other voices that may have something meaningful to contribute. Quite a nasty tactics, but understandable from an entity that has no substance or meaning or truth. your days are numbered, leave now or face total destruction.

This now on the front page of the Washington Post. I quote:

"Since the quake, parents' grief has turned to anger.

Why, they ask, did the school collapse when other nearby buildings, including government offices, the teachers' dormitory and even an old classroom building housing pet rabbits, withstood the quake?

The same question is being asked all over Sichuan, as residents have started to notice that, on street after street, schools collapsed while most government buildings did not. In Mianzhu county, a quarter of the 43 primary and secondary schools caved in, leaving more than 1,000 students dead, while the gleaming government complex remained fully operational and is now a staging area for emergency rescue and cleanup operations.
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In total, nearly 7,000 schools have been reported destroyed in Sichuan by the quake; that figure could rise as reconstruction crews reach the hardest-hit areas.

China's leaders have launched an investigation into why so many schools collapsed. Jiang Weixin, the minister of housing and urban-rural construction, said this week that authorities 'cannot rule out the possibility that there may have been shoddy work and inferior materials during the construction' of some school buildings. "

Unquote.

You can read the rest at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/22/AR2008052204306.html?hpid=topnews

Chinese Observer says:

"But let me tell you, rape is not uncommon in Tibet --- among Tibetans themselves, since their religion encourages active sexuality. Rape is also a common scene in the temples, by the Lamas, in front of the Buddha. You will find it easier to imagine if you go to your museum and see the depiction of sexual intercourse in those paintings and sculptures."

American Observer says:

Wei and FarkLOL, this is your chance. You keep saying that we Yankees underestimate the intelligence of the Chinese. If the Chinese are smarter than we think, why do so many of them speak and think the way 'Chinese Observer' speaks and thinks? I am glad that you have so much time and energy to argue with me, and I will answer your arguments; but in the meantime, I suggest that you read the words of 'Chinese Observer' and tell us what you think. If you are really courageous and intelligent, you might take the time to tell Chinese Observer what you think as well.

Hmmm... Let me see... What will those boys probably say?

Oh, yeah -- They will probably say "Yankee Devil, why don't you tell your Yankee Devil masters about Guantanamo and Vietnam and all of those dead Indians! Yeah!"

And I will probably answer, "We have already addressed all or most of those questions on this board, and in every case I was able find crimes that were as bad or even worse in Chinese history. If you want to go over it again, we can; and then, when you are done, please read what 'Chinese Observer' wrote and take the time to tell us what it says about Chinese culture. Then tell us what Chinese Observer has shown us about the right of the Chinese to rule Tibet."

Okay?

To American Observer:

Earlier on we had a discussion on Tibet and you quoted what the Tibetan Women’s Association told the rest of the world:

Despite the fact that Tibet is a sparsely populated region, many women are forcibly sterilized or limited to one or two children in accordance with Chinese state-enforced population control. It is practically impossible for a woman to have more than two children as an additional child has no status and is unacknowledged and is unregistered by the Chinese state…. the Tibetans have to fear being raped and tortured and killed…

First, I refuse to take what the Tibetan Women’s Association says as valid. Given that it is headed by Dalai’s sister and sister-in-law, the best thing I could say is they are the “running dogs”, in your words, of the most successful liar in human history. Dalai is a slave owner who somehow managed to preach like Martin Luther King. Since when a slaver owner who drinks from vessels made of human skulls became a saint?

My friends who worked in Tibetan communities testify that THERE IS NO FORCED STERILIZAION against Tibetan women. In Hongyuan County, Aba, all leaders except the Party Secretary are Tibetans. And all Tibetans, no matter government officials or peasants, including the Hans who married Tibetans, are entitled to have as many children as they wish. As a matter of fact, a friend from Guoluo, Qinghai, told me about this young woman, who has 6 kids, with different men. She makes a living by sending her children to the streets, begging. (Send your CNN staff to check it out for you.)

Technically, forced sterilization is impractical in Tibet. With an area of 1.2 million square km, and the highest altitude in the world, how could the 5% Hans possibly fulfill such an abuse against the 95% Tibetans?

And rape?! The most recent report on rape I read is what American GIs did to Japanese teenage girls. You didn’t hear about it, or you chose to turn a deaf ear to the “loud rage” of the parents?

But let me tell you, rape is not uncommon in Tibet --- among Tibetans themselves, since their religion encourages active sexuality. Rape is also a common scene in the temples, by the Lamas, in front of the Buddha. You will find it easier to imagine if you go to your museum and see the depiction of sexual intercourse in those paintings and sculptures. And, did your Women’s Association tell you that polygamy is still in practice among some Tibetans? And, extramarital sex isn’t a very serious matter as it is in many other cultures?

About twenty years ago, the Chinese government banned a novel entitled “Show Your Tongue or Nothing” (my translation). This book is believed to be an outspoken criticism of Tibetan culture and the content would definitely appall many Chinese. It was banned because the government wanted to maintain “unity of the nation”. For decades, the Chinese are taught to treat all ethnic minorities as brothers. Although many have to abide by the one-child policy, very few of us complain and even fewer question the Chinese “affirmative action” as the Americans question theirs.

Hope this is enough information for you to chew on for the moment. I will be back some other time to feed you more.

Still, seriously, and sincerely, start learning Chinese so you can at least have access to the other side of the story.

As a libertarian, it’s ridiculous to think I would support a dictatorship. If any conclusion I draw sounds stupid, don’t blame me. Those are not my ideas. I am just following your statements and logics.

Here is what I really think about India and China. First let me give you a short answer why China is economically ahead of India now. It’s because China has a 10-year head start. Of course one would then ask why China started the economic reform 10 years earlier than India. I don’t have a definite answer for that. But obviously one cannot ignore the huge difference in their political systems in searching for the answer. Whether or not that’s the cause is totally open to debate.
But since that is against your ideology, u totally ignore that possibility and try to explain away the economic gap between two solely by their cultural difference. But by doing so, u really become a mouthpiece of CCP. CCP always claims western democracy won’t work in China because the Chinese culture is different from the West.
Since u are so convinced of the importance of culture, and you said your self that Chinese culture is conformism where collective interest trumps individual right, why don’t you just go ahead and repeat what CCP has been saying all along.
So I am so correct calling you an apologist for all the dictators in the third world countries. Because otherwise u are really a ….

To American Observer

As a libertarian, it’s ridiculous to think I would support a dictatorship. If any conclusion I draw sounds stupid, don’t blame me. Those are not my ideas. I am just following your statements and logics.

Here is what I really think about India and China. First let me give you a short answer why China is economically ahead of India now. It’s because China has a 10-year head start. Of course one would then ask why China started the economic reform 10 years earlier than India. I don’t have a definite answer for that. But obviously one cannot ignore the huge difference in their political systems in searching for the answer. Whether or not that’s the cause is totally open to debate.
But since that is against your ideology, u totally ignore that possibility and try to explain away the economic gap between two solely by their cultural difference. But by doing so, u really become a mouthpiece of CCP. CCP always claims western democracy won’t work in China because the Chinese culture is different from the West.
Since u are so convinced of the importance of culture, and you said your self that Chinese culture is conformism where collective interest trumps individual right, why don’t you just go ahead and repeat what CCP has been saying all along.
So I am so correct calling you an apologist for all the dictators in the third world countries. Because otherwise u are really a ….

Thmak, I am sorry. Your English is always terrible, but I always patiently try to understand what you are saying and answer it carefully. This time I cannot, because your English is so bad that I cannot understand what you are saying. If you are trying to say something that matters, you will have to try again.

Oh, and another thing. Not only have you been posting gibberish, but you have reposted one of my messages, twice. I suppose I should be flattered, but frankly you are wasting space. I advise you to think harder about your own messages and write them more carefully.

To American Observer: You have been avoiding the points in discussion and always bring up unrelatated issues. So you have understand what I said. Before listing the different China nationalities, do you agree with my point in "To American Observer: If you are that knowledgeable about China, you must know that China has more than 50 different nationalities, each has her own customs and dialects. If you can fantasy that Quandong and Fujien original cultures were replaced by some China emporer, then the original cultures of those nationalities must have similarly been replaced for the same reason. Inventing 50 more different cultures is an immense intellectual task in that ancient period, unheard off in human history. China is renowned for recorded history and these empirical feats must have been honorably recorded. Therefroe, it is impossible that there is no historical record of even one of the undertaking. In short, your conjecture is just an amusing and entertaining fantasy. ". If you don't agree, please say why instead of bring up another issue. We have to bring this issue to an end before we start another issue. Don't play chickens.

American Obserer said:
Blah Blah Blah. Natural disasters are sign of an end of Chinese Dynasties.

Whatever,
This is a superficial and false deduction. Many chinese dynasties' fall were not accompanied by naturual disasters. This is mere wishful thinking on people bent on seeing China's current government fail.

AO:
Blah Blah Blah. Corrupt local officials and businessmen build poor schools. This is less likely to happen in free society. Therefore people must revolt.

Whatever,
Corruption happens in all societies. The Chinese central government's prompt response in this disaster scored them a lot of points both domestically and internationally. Continuous lecture of "freedom" and "human rights" as reasons to topple the current Chinese government from a hypocrtical "american observer" point of view is certainly not going to push the ordinary Chinese people to revolt.

To American observer: You mind is so confused. I have pity for you. I never posted the following:Thmak says:

"Assumpted thesis is different from the proof of the history that all Chinese know their ancient generation named Chan, Lee, Cheung, Wong, Ho etc.. You can oddly find any of them from different races."

American Observer replies:

You can also find lots of African-Americans named Jones and you can also find lots of Native-Americans named Smith. What does that prove? It proves that the weak usually take on the names of the strong, just as conquered nations learn the languages and customs of the nations which conquered them.

Thmak says:

" Can you tell who is the first explorer ?
a) Vinland Map from Norwan ?

b) Pacific People after discovred a piece of chicken bone?

c) A Han people "Chen Wo - A general from China" during the Ming Dynasty."

American Observer laughs:

The New World was populated in waves. The first wave seems to have been Melanesians who were similar to the modern people of New Guinea. The second wave seem to have been 'Caucasians' similar to the Ainu people of Japan. The third wave were the Native Americans whom you have seen on television. Of course, neither Columbus nor any of the later explorers found Melanesians or Ainu in the New World because the third wave had already assimilated or exterminated the first two waves. The fourth wave were Eskimos, whose faces and genes are clearly East Asian, and very different from the people of whom you think as "Native Americans.' The fifth wave were the Europeans, Africans, and Asians who came after Columbus.

Now, to address to your examples. There is clear archaeological evidence that the Vikings landed in Canada, and there is strong reason to believe that the Polynesians did in fact bring chickens to the
western coast of South America. So far there is not a shred of evidence that any Chinese reached the Americas before Columbus -- the theories about 'Chen Wo' are only fantasies of Chinese nationalism

FarkLOL says:

"To ensure a thriving, robust democracy would require a solid economy, well-educated citizenry, a fair judicial system, and free press."

American Observer replies:

FarkLOL, we both share something in common. We are both convinced that the other one has not read what we wrote.

You say that you want China to have 'a solid economy, well-educated citizenry, a fair judicial system, and free press.' I would also love to see 'a solid economy, well-educated citizenry, a fair judicial system, and free press.' Only a Communist would be against those things. You also seem to say that China cannot become democratic unless a free press and an independent judiciary already exist. Unfortunately, when democracy comes to China millions of Communist officials will lose their place in the money-bin, and those officials will do anything they can to keep their place in the money-bin. We already saw them do this in Tiananmen Square. Therefore, the officials will simply stop a free press or independent judiciary from coming into being, the way Lee Kuan Yew has corrupted the judiciary and overthrown the free press in Singapore. In reality, a free press and independent judiciary elections, and elections protect a free press and independent judiciary -- those three institutions support and protect each other.

Finally, you refer to Edmund Burke and other early thinkers who were worried that a political system based on 'one-man one-vote' would lead to 'mob rule' and even to higher taxes. I am familiar with their thought, and I will admit that during the Cold War, America was sometimes reluctant to see 'one-man one-vote' in regions where there was a danger that full elections might allow Communist insurgencies to overwhelm the state and then impose totalitarianism. This why America did not encourage 'one-man one-vote' in South Africa until the Cold War was over. However, you should also admit that many of the early thinkers who were 'worried' about 'one-man one-vote' were also worried that free elections would lead to governments which would abolish slavery and break up large estates. If you doubt me, go look it up.

As for myself, I don't think that 'one-man one-vote' will or can cause any problems in China, because I spent years living in China and talking to the people of China, and I don't think that the Chinese people want to bring back the Red Guards or loot the cities or any of those other things which the Chinese upper classes seem to fear. If you know anything about the British writer George Orwell, George Orwell also heard a lot of arguments that democracy in Europe might allow 'the mob to get out.' Orwell responded by saying 'The mob is already out, and the mob are not dangerous to anyone, because the mob want the same things that you and I do.'

Now, there is one final argument which China's urban elites always use when they arguing to prevent or delay democracy. The urban elites always say that if the Chinese farmers can choose their own leaders, then the farmers will overturn the 'one child' policy and start breeding like rabbits. I will agree that a democratic China will modify the 'one-child' policy. However, that policy is already being modified, and there are better and more effective ways to persuade people to use family planning. As you already know, Chinese farmers want to have large families so that they will have sons to take care of them in their old age. The best thing the Chinese government could do to control the birth rate is to give pensions to all Chinese senior citizens, so that nobody thinks he has to breed a lot of children to take care of him when he is old. Most modern societies already have national pension systems, and China's enormous reserves of American dollars can easily pay for this.

Whatever says:

"What does China's lack of freedom of speech has to do with the above? Nothing. This is the equivalent of calling someones' mom fat, when they say you smell."

American Observer replies:

You have that backward. This board is not here to discuss American foreign policy. This board is here to discuss China. The title of the board is 'The Earthquake's Chinese Meaning,' and the words 'America' and 'Saudia Arabia' do not appear in the title or the lead article anywhere. Have you read the article? Have you even read the title?

'Whatever,' if you are actually interested in China, you need to start discussing the concept of dynasties and disasters. As you should know, in traditional China the dynasty was responsible for preventing floods and helping the survivors of natural disasters. The job of the dynasty was to build canals and store grain for emergencies. When the dynasty became so decadent and corrupt that it could not protect the people from nature, the people said that 'the mandate of heaven' had passed, and the dynasty was no longer fit to rule. Therefore, the Chinese people decided that natural disasters foretold the fall of a dynasty. After a certain point this belief became so set in society that millions of Chinese now believe that in 1976 the great Tangshan Earthquake foretold the death of Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai, and General Zhu De, the 'Black Warlord' who led Mao's armies during the Communist Revolution. I spent three years in China, and I heard this from the mouths of many Chinese.

Now we need to look at the tragedy. People who actually live in the disaster area are shocked by the number of children who have died. The children died because their schools fell on them during classes, and their schools fell because corrupt Communist officials accepted bribes to allow local contractors to do inferior work. This kind of trick is much harder to pull when a free press watches over the officials, and this kind of trick never lasts very long when the ordinary people have the ability to throw officials out of office in elections. So, we can honestly say that the earthquake has done more than frighten and enrage ordinary Chinese; it has shown again that the Chinese Communist Party has lost 'the mandate of heaven,' and it is time for the people of China to choose their own leaders.

As another poster randomly mentioned, we know there is a lack of freedom of speech in China, and people get jailed.

However, that does not refute the hypocrisy of US foreign policy.

That also does not refute the low credibility of US caused by this hypocrisy.

Finally that does not refute the lack of logic in people's argument on this discussion board. What does China's lack of freedom of speech has to do with the above? Nothing. This is the equivalent of calling someones' mom fat, when they say you smell.

To American Observer:

You're twisting my words around again. If you re-read my previous posts you realize that my arguments and intentions share nothing with Mao or any other dictator for that matter. My point has always been (and I have to repeat myself for a third time because you have difficulty comprehending) that democratic elections is an end, not a means. To ensure a thriving, robust democracy would require a solid economy, well-educated citizenry, a fair judicial system, and free press. I have explicitly stated in the same post THAT YOU QUOTED FROM that I wanted to see those things in China within the next decade. This is not an authoritarian opinion, this is a realist opinion, you'll find it more like Edmund Burke than Mao Tse Tung. My concerns with the development of free societies is one shared by the Framers of the U.S. Constitution and a majority of Western scholars and philosophers in the Age of Enlightenment.

Keep in mind, American Observer, while I tried to keep this debate open and civil, it was you who lowered the bar through childish name-calling. We can either continue our discussion like gentlemen who admire a free and rational discourse enough to not allow it to debase into juvenile mud-slinging, or we could end this discussion right now. The choice is yours.

"The chinese people trust their own government more that the west."

Apparently, there are Chinese who don't trust their own government. These dissidents get thrown into jail for saying something the leadership does'nt like to hear.

Is'nt that a bit extreme?

America should help push for democracy in Saudi and other middle east countries NOW. Or else, it is naturual to think that "democrary" and "human rights" are merely tools of US foreign policy to enhance its own interest. The chinese people trust their own government more that the west.

Trying to convince China to be more democratic from america's point of view is mere lip service.

FarkLOL says:

"Also, How am I an 'Asian Authoritarian'?"

American Observer says:

Hmmm... To be honest, FarkLOL, you seem to see differences where Americans tend to see similarities. There are very few Asians left who will say argue that 'democracy is bad.' Even Lee Kuan Yew's spokesman, Kishore Mahbubani, said in an interview that 'Democracy is the only destination.' At the same time, Kishore Mahbubani and Lee Kuan Yew and the rest of the ruling clique in Singapore continue to maintain that Singapore is still not ready for an independent press or independent parties or even a court system which will rule against Lee Kuan Yew, even though Singapore is now as developed as Taiwan and Japan and South Korea were when Taiwan and Japan and South Korea became democratic. So when people like you argue for Asians to be 'patient' while 'democracy develops on its own,' people like me tend to interpret it as meaning 'tutelage today, tutelage tomorrow, tutelage forever.' You will tell me that you don't mean that, and I am glad to hear that you don't mean that; you will say that you want China to develop, but you want China to develop on its own path and in its own time. I will concede that those are beautiful words, but you have to remember also how many tyrants, such as Mao, have excused their 'alternative political systems' by saying that they were only 'being true to to the heritage of their people.' Whether you consider yourself an 'Asian Authoritarian' or not, you say the same things that Asian Authoritarians say.

Now I would like to address the question of nationalism. Nobody will argue that the Chinese are 'stupid,' FarkLOL, but I will remind you that the Chinese need to think a lot harder about the issues that matter most. You are proud of the reaction of the ordinary Chinese to the earthquake, and you have right to be proud; but you should understand that the world will continue to look at the last forty years of Chinese actions, and not just at China's reaction to the earthquake. You should be honest and recognize that the ordinary Chinese have discredited themselves in the eyes of the world by embracing the Cultural Revolution, by turning against the students after Tiananmen, and by denouncing the Dalai Lama and endorsing Chinese imperialism in Tibet. The ordinary Chinese should be ashamed of all four of those actions. I am always glad to see the Chinese people act to advance their nation and protect themselves, but the people of China need stern advice a lot more than they need to hear blather about their 'heritage' or their 'glorious destiny.'

Some people will argue that China will always 'triumph' because China has always triumphed in the past. Well, was the past really such a triumph? If you wish to stand with Will Durant, you can look at Chinese history and see four thousand years of building great walls and inventing paper; but it would be equally honest to stand with Lu Xun and see Chinese history as 'four thousand years of cannibalism.' If not for the West, the Chinese would still be trapped in the same ancient cycle of dynasties; and if not for Nixon and the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, China might still be trapped like North Korea inside a Marxist society. China has needed Western help in the past, and China will continue to need Western help in the future. That is not an 'insult,' FarkLOL -- that is just the truth.

FarkLOL says:

"What I said that the key to China's FUTURE democatization lies with the Chinese people, not with foreign governments or outside organizations."

American Observer replies:

Actually, the future will be like the past. The democratization of China will occur because the Chinese people and foreign governments and outside organizations work together. There are no masters and servants in this work; there are no wise guys, and there are no fools; there are only people working together for a cause that matters. As FDR put it so well, 'United, we are strong; united, we will win.'

These views that u say are Thmak's are actually from "A Han People in Canton",

"Assumpted thesis is different from the proof of the history that all Chinese know their ancient generation named Chan, Lee, Cheung, Wong, Ho etc.. You can oddly find any of them from different races."

"Can you tell who is the first explorer ?
a) Vinland Map from Norwan ?"

Also,

How am I an "Asian Authoritarian"? My last few posts was all about how political freedom and rule of law in China is a good thing. Do you typically resort ad hominem attacks when you don't have an argument to stand on, or are you just a troll?

To American Observer:

You completely misunderstood the point. I never said America didn't help, nor did I mention anything about America's role in Chinese politics. What I said that the key to China's FUTURE democatization lies with the Chinese people, not with foreign governments or outside organizations. Are you disagreeing with this? Because either you misread my last posts or you truly believe that Chinese people are too stupid and helpless to bring about any meaningful change in their own country.

Oh, I forgot to give you a link for the excerpt from Cable News Network. The name of the article was:

"Kim Dae-jung: From prison to president

By Carol Clark
CNN Interactive"

And you can find the entire text at http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/korea/story/leader/kim.dae.jung/ .

FarkLOL says:

"The Chinese people and yes, even the Communist Party will play a role in that (notice how I left out Western governments and NGOs?). Keep in mind that in East Asian countries, major changes usually come from the top-down (just look at how S. Korea and Taiwan democratized), "

American Observer laughs:

Like most 'Asian Authoritarians,' you take American's role for granted as completely as you take for granted the role of the sun and the air. The military regimes of Taiwan and South Korea gave up power under continous American pressure. For example, America saved the life of the Korean reformer, Kim Dae-jung, twice. As CNN puts it:

" In August 1973, South Korean agents kidnapped Kim from a Tokyo hotel and took him out to sea in a small boat where he spent several harrowing days.

'He was bound hand and foot and waiting to be thrown over the side,' Gregg said.

When U.S. Ambassador Philip Habib was informed of the abduction, he called Park and warned him that he would face severe repercussions from the United States if Kim were killed. Kim was returned to his Seoul home, battered but alive, and spent the next nine years under house arrest, in jail or in exile.

In 1979 Park was assassinated by the head of the Korean Central Intelligence Agency and another general, Chun Doo-hwan, imposed martial law as he moved to take over the presidency. Kim and other leading opposition figures were arrested as tens of thousands of protesters gathered in Kwangju, in South Cholla Province. Troops used force to quell the demonstrations, killing at least 200 people by some estimates.

Kim was charged with sedition and nearly executed, but again the United States intervened and Kim's life was spared. Under a deal with the Reagan administration, Kim boarded a plane to the United States in 1982. He used his time in exile well, brushing up on his English, working as a visiting fellow at Harvard University and cultivating influential American friends."

Unquote.

And as you know, Kim Dae-jung later became the president of South Korea, again with American support.

FarkLOL, you can find plenty of similar incidents from the history of Taiwan; and there are many Chinese reformers who were released from prison or who excaped from China with American help. If not for America, China would have tried to invade Taiwan long ago; if not for America, the Chinese would feel free to slaughter the Tibetans as much as they like; without America, China might even have gone to war with Japan. I know whining about 'American interference' makes your ego feel good; in fact, in South Korea back in the eighties the regime and the reformers both complained about 'American interference'; but you need to start reading history and not just soaking up ideology from teahouses and chat rooms.

Thmak says:

"Assumpted thesis is different from the proof of the history that all Chinese know their ancient generation named Chan, Lee, Cheung, Wong, Ho etc.. You can oddly find any of them from different races."

American Observer replies:

You can also find lots of African-Americans named Jones and you can also find lots of Native-Americans named Smith. What does that prove? It proves that the weak usually take on the names of the strong, just as conquered nations learn the languages and customs of the nations which conquered them.

Thmak says:

" Can you tell who is the first explorer ?
a) Vinland Map from Norwan ?

b) Pacific People after discovred a piece of chicken bone?

c) A Han people "Chen Wo - A general from China" during the Ming Dynasty."

American Observer laughs:

The New World was populated in waves. The first wave seems to have been Melanesians who were similar to the modern people of New Guinea. The second wave seem to have been 'Caucasians' similar to the Ainu people of Japan. The third wave were the Native Americans whom you have seen on television. Of course, neither Columbus nor any of the later explorers found Melanesians or Ainu in the New World because the third wave had already assimilated or exterminated the first two waves. The fourth wave were Eskimos, whose faces and genes are clearly East Asian, and very different from the people of whom you think as "Native Americans.' The fifth wave were the Europeans, Africans, and Asians who came after Columbus.

Now, to address to your examples. There is clear archaeological evidence that the Vikings landed in Canada, and there is strong reason to believe that the Polynesians did in fact bring chickens to the
western coast of South America. So far there is not a shred of evidence that any Chinese reached the Americas before Columbus -- the theories about 'Chen Wo' are only fantasies of Chinese nationalism.

The destroyer of worlds has been in control of earth and humanity for more than 3000 years... more or less.
While the ancients understood the value of cooperation and ethnic diversity and cultural plurality. the beast (described as demon, dragon, devil in ancient texts) is totalitarian in nature. Since it is a machine, it wants all it's subjects to be machine like in their rigid adherence to it's homogenous nature.
Most fail to recognize their true enemy, they make war with each other, conquer their perceived enemy, steal their resources and the fruit of their labor, but in the end, even the victors do not truly enjoy the benefits of the conquest, the ones in leadership positions and in control of the markets enrich themselves and consolidate their power over the populace.
The rest are relegated to a life of austerity and struggle to feed themselves. Yet time and time again, the people allow the veil of lies to be tended over them. They foolishly accept when those in control tell them that other tribe hates them and they should in turn hate them. Eventually, they invent transgressions or stage them in order to illicit an emotional response and eliminate the temperance of reason.
This is the way of the beast, it tries to eliminate reason from the arena. It uses emotion to elicit a response from those who prefer to follow a false leader than bother to think for themselves. The sooner you realize and recognize your common enemy, the sooner you'll be able to protect your world from the coming harvest.

"American Observer replies:

Excellent point. I have also been impressed by the kindness and dedication of ordinary Chinese in this crisis. Tell me, how many people still say that the people of China are too 'illiterate' and 'anarchic' to elect their own leaders? What do you think, 'FarkLOL?'"

I hardly doubt there is anyone in China who strongly objects to a free press, fair justice system, and strong property rights laws. But in terms of elections, you're going to get mixed results. You have to realize that there is more to democracy than just free elections.

I think what you are seeing in China is a grass-roots movement against government corruption and other social issues, which, in the next generation or two will empower reformist elements in the Communist Party to make some real, substantial changes. Keep in mind that the protests of '89 (that led to the Tiananmen protest) was in response to the Party forcing a liberal reformist in the Politburo into early retirement.

In the end, any changes in China will depend on the actions and motives of its people, and ONLY its people. You have to realize that they don't like to be disregarded or talked down to. I'm not saying that you should start kissing their ass, but start by acknowledging that they are not helpless and stupid. You need to have a little more faith in the Chinese people, and maybe they'll surprise you.

Democracy is sometimes dangerous when the ratio of people is greedy and lazy,or unequal in terms of education, quality, knowledge and standard; they wil ask for equal benefit but not equal contribution. China is far from this point having 1.3 Billion moving to that standard after so many destructive events in the past.
If China use the election methodology like in US, just the pre-voting will last for years to run across province and province. It's not economic way of doing.

American Observer says:

Exactly. The Chinese colonialists invaded Guangdong before and during the Qin dynasty. By the time of the Han dynasty, the Chinese colonialists were settling in, but continuing to rule their Yue subjects with military garrisons. Thanks for confirming my thesis.

To American Observer :

What's a silly thesis made by assumption. Assumpted thesis is different from the proof of the history that all Chinese know their ancient generation named Chan, Lee, Cheung, Wong, Ho etc.. You can oddly find any of them from different races. You still have mentally blind reading against the fact and history. Are you telling us Chinese ruled the Chinese land? To rule is different from to develop, to integrate, adaptation along the changes of history. It's term of to re-structure and to re-organize, or to civilize the loosing tribes grouped together from originally migrated from mainland or already lived there e.g. the HaKa fishing tribes. Most important is none of us living in these province refused be part of China and recognize our roots.

You probably have no root in America, or only the immigrants from Africa, Europe and more from Asia. Can you tell who is the first explorer ?
a) Vinland Map from Norwan ?

b) Pacific People after discovred a piece of chicken bone?

c) A Han people "Chen Wo - A general from China" during the Ming Dynasty.

The assumption can be made if a Chinese General discovered America, why didn't Chen Wo ruled the land? It is because Chinese culture of Han not encourging to attack but to integrate. But unfortunately due to political changes during Ming Dynasty, this was never happened?

Please help us to find out about the history of America.

If people are stupid enough buy houses that shot up 300% in prices in 5 years even though they can't afford them, they are too stupid to choose the right leader for the country. Chinese, Americans or Europeans alike.

"To farklol:
Since you are Chinese American,
would you recommend democracy for China?"

The short answer: no.

The long answer: I'd like China to move in that direction, but I don't want them to rush it and end up with those dysfunctional democracies that is common in third-world countries (like in Latin America). If China is going to become democratic, they should do it right. Democracy should NOT be seen as a means, but an end. There are a lot of pre-requisites for a liberal democracy to thrive: social, economical, cultural, and political. Keep in mind that it took the West centuries (from the Magna Carta in the 13th century) to get to where they are today. It is unrealistic to expect China to breach that gap in a few decades.

So no, I don't recommend China jumping head-strong into a democractic system. However, I'd like to see a fair and independent judiciary, free press, and comprehensive property laws develop in the next decade. I'd like to see the educated middle and upper classes grow and expand during the same period. I'd like to see more transparency within the government, and more reform-minded people in top CCP willing to bring the nation in the right direction.

The Chinese people and yes, even the Communist Party will play a role in that (notice how I left out Western governments and NGOs?). Keep in mind that in East Asian countries, major changes usually come from the top-down (just look at how S. Korea and Taiwan democratized), they follow the Burkean Model of political development. The best solution to the problem would be having more liberal, reform-minded politicans in both at the top of the Party hierarchy and in mid-level provincial posts.

FarkLOL says:

"Why don't we talk about the hundreds of millions of average Chinese who donate a portion of their meager earnings to help the quake victims? Is the kindness and generosity of the Chinese people, the tenacity of the Chinese spirit in the face of adversity not worth talking about? Not even now?"

American Observer replies:

Excellent point. I have also been impressed by the kindness and dedication of ordinary Chinese in this crisis. Tell me, how many people still say that the people of China are too 'illiterate' and 'anarchic' to elect their own leaders? What do you think, 'FarkLOL?'

Thmak says:

"If you are that knowledgeable about China, you must know that China has more than 50 different nationalities, each has her own customs and dialects."

American Observer replies:

If you list those nationalities, Thmak, you will see that each of those races has a history; and most of those histories will include being attacked by the Chinese empire. Go ahead and print the list for us. It will be an interesting exercise and we can all participate.

Since you are Chinese American,
would you recommend democracy for China?

A Han Person on Canton says:

"According to the structure, calligraphy and content of the inscriptions on tomb bricks and to the tomb finds, the tomb is commonly believed to have been be built during the Eastern Han Dynasty (AD 25 - 220) although the Southern Dynasties period was also suggested. It was probably built for a Chinese officer attached to the local garrison."

American Observer says:

Exactly. The Chinese colonialists invaded Guangdong before and during the Qin dynasty. By the time of the Han dynasty, the Chinese colonialists were settling in, but continuing to rule their Yue subjects with military garrisons. Thanks for confirming my thesis.

Hong Kong is actually located at the south of Guangdong. If the web http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lei_Cheng_Uk_Han_Tomb_Museum still cannot answer your questions, I would suggest to use the scientific way to prove if those people living in Guangdong or Futian areas carrying the same DNA from the origin Han or ealier. The great American Obersever can do something more meaningful than selectively mis-intrepreted the common knowledge that everybody here knows about Chinese history. One of the proven factors are most of the people around in the southof China were the immigrants due to different circumstances from the middle of China.

The Lei Cheng Uk Han Tomb Museum Chinese: 李鄭屋古墓) is composed of an ancient brick tomb and of an exhibition hall adjacent to it. It is located at 41 Tonkin Street, in Sham Shui Po District, in the northwestern part of the Kowloon Peninsula of Hong Kong.

According to the structure, calligraphy and content of the inscriptions on tomb bricks and to the tomb finds, the tomb is commonly believed to have been be built during the Eastern Han Dynasty (AD 25 - 220) although the Southern Dynasties period was also suggested. It was probably built for a Chinese officer attached to the local garrison.

The tomb is constructed of bricks (average size 40x20x5cm) and consists of four chambers set in the form of a cross. The dome vault at the center was constructed by laying bricks in a spiral, while the other chambers are barrel vaulted. Some bricks are stamped or carved with inscriptions or patterns on the exposed sides. It is believed that the rear chamber is the coffin chamber, that side chambers were used for storage, while ritual ceremonies were performed in the front chamber under the domed roof.

The tomb's cross-shaped structure and the burial objects found inside show great similarities as compared to other Han tombs found in South China, which prove that early Chinese civilisation has spread to Hong Kong 2,000 years ago. The inscription Panyu on tomb bricks further confirms the dating, since, according to historical records, Panyu was the name of the county to which the present territory of Hong Kong belonged during the Han Dynasty. Also, the style of the calligraphy used in the inscriptions was an angular version of lishu (clerical script) which was generally used in inscriptions on bronze wares and stones during the Han Dynasty. There was no bodies found in the tomb.

To Farklol: You're right. There are a lot of positive discussions on the earth quake. As you know about the Olympic torch procession, there is alway some small groups of protesters trying to spoil the celebration. Therefore police are needed to prevent that from happening. In this forum, there are vicious posters spreading false rumors and distorted facts to convey a wrong impression of the situation. Therefore there is a need to rebuke those hearsays from getting out of hand.

To American Observer: If you are that knowledgeable about China, you must know that China has more than 50 different nationalities, each has her own customs and dialects. If you can fantasy that Quandong and Fujien original cultures were replaced by some China emporer, then the original cultures of those nationalities must have similarly been replaced for the same reason. Inventing 50 more different cultures is an immense intellectual task in that ancient period, unheard off in human history. China is renowned for recorded history and these empirical feats must have been honorably recorded. Therefroe, it is impossible that there is no historical record of even one of the undertaking. In short, you conjecture is just an amusing and entertaining fantasy.

To all who are arguing over invading/absorbing Fujian and Guandong provinces: GET OVER IT. It happened thousands of years ago, a different time in a different age that has no bearing whatsoever on this topic. How does the actions of a long dead emperor of a long dead dynasty reflect on the Chinese people/society today? I am Chinese (-American) and I don't think we should be dwelling too much on the past, especially the distant past that has no relevance on our lives or the lives of others.

Instead of wasting my time arguing, I'm going to donate money to the earthquake victims and help raise awareness. Why don't we talk about that? Why don't we talk about the hundreds of millions of average Chinese who donate a portion of their meager earnings to help the quake victims? Is the kindness and generosity of the Chinese people, the tenacity of the Chinese spirit in the face of adversity not worth talking about? Not even now?

Can we have a real discussion about what is learned from this disaster rather than nitpicking about history?

You need to do something about your one-child policy. Otherwise in the next 10-30 years, China will truly be the land of "Golden agers".

USA has about 0.3 billions of population while China has 1.3 billions of people. I think that if China has only 0.3 billion of people same as USA, China has already replaced USA as the superpower 20 years ago. So we Chinese still need to work hard to improve our standard of living. I think the next 10-30 years will be the golden age of China.

Politicizing history has no end and no bottom. It is a stupid, meaningless debate that can continue forever. Every modern nation and ethnic groups was guilty of violence and aggression against others at some point in its history. If historical violence and aggression is the basis on which a country's existence is to be decided, no country should exist in the world today at all.

American Observer:

Your knowledge of Chinese culture is seriously flawed. Han has been used to identify the ethnic group for many centuries. Some 800 years ago, the Mongols classified the subjects in their empire into four classes by ethnic groups. The top group is of course Mongols, then the western (central Asia) people, then the "Han" people and the southern Hans (citizens of the former Song Dynasty south of the Yellow River) at the bottom. Today, no Chinese say they live in the Han nation because there is no such nation and it hasn't existed for many centuries. The name of the country is People's Republic of China (中华人民共和国), where the word Zhonghuaguo (中华国) which literally means Chinese nation. Zhonghua (中华) has been used to identify the nation of China for many centuries in numerous historical text. So your assertion that the term Han was not used to identify ethnicity is clearly not true.

As for your claim that Chinese invaded Guangdong and Fujian two thousand years ago, it isn't comely true. There had been migration of people from the north to the south since the beginning of Chinese history. They were not lead or protected by the military like the settlers from Europe. Southern indigenous people learned and adopted advanced technologies from these northern settlers, along with their languages and customs. It is mainly through this kind of assimilation that the south became part of the Han culture. The Qin Empire was the first Chinese administration on Guangdong by a general who became the king of the Yue kingdom later. The Yue kingdom came under the control of the Han Empire during 200 BC. By that time, this region had already been somewhat integrated with the Han people and culture. The major shift to the Han culture happened in the next 400 years.

Human history is made of divergence of tribes and cultures on one hand and integration of different cultures on the other. This is how modern nations and ethnic groups were formed. This is how America came into existence, and India, and Russia, and Germany, etc. Was there violence during this process? of course. Human beings are more violent than any other animals on earth. I just find it ridiculous for anyone to pass judgments on
the history of the evolution of a civilization that happened thousands of years ago over many centuries.

Thmak says:

"The dialects, music and customs of Quangdong and Fujian remain and they are not from any Chinese Emporer. "

American Observer replies:

Nonsense. All of the Chinese claim that Cantonese and Fujienese are 'dialects' of Chinese. Do you really claim that the people of Fujien and Guangdong spoke a dialect of Chinese before the Chinese invaded? Do you really claim that the people of Guangdong and Fujien would have 'acquired' Chinese customs like foot-binding and ancestor-worship if the Chinese had not invaded? Without Chinese colonialism, Guangdong and Fujien would have been completely different societies, speaking their own languages and following their own customs.

Interesting, they are all the same person carrying on a fake discussion in order to fill up the boards with unreadable crap and push down the postings with substance and insight.

Another of the tactics of the destroyer of worlds. you must be so proud of yourselves that you are helping destroy your homeworld.

enjoy!!

Jiamin says:

"Duangdong and Fujian were once inhabited by indigenous people called Yue(越). It is a loosely related groups of tribes that lived all over southern China about 2 thousand years ago. "

American Observer says:

We agree on the time-frame.

Jiamin says:

"They were absorbed into the Chinese(华夏) civilization over centuries all the way up until about 2nd century AD. "

American Observer says:

They were 'absorbed' through violence and invasion. They were 'absorbed' through colonialism. Or, do you really argue that this 'absorbtion' occured because the Yue were standing on the hills calling for the Chinese to come and 'absorb' them?

Jiamin says:

"In fact the name of the modern nation of Vietnam literally means "South of Viet(Yue)"."

American Observer says:

That proves my point. The Vietnamese are the southern branch of a separate race and nation, and the northern branch of the Yue civilization was attacked and colonized by the Chinese.

We both know that China has attacked Vietnam many times, and we both know that the Vietnamese have defeated the Chinese many times. Should we now expect the Chinese to march against Hanoi again and continue their job of 'absorbing' the Yue?

Jiamin says:

"In China, Han(汉) has always been used to identify an ethnic identity while Chinese(华夏) has always been used the identify the nation and civilization."

American Observer says:

Actually, the word 'China' comes from the Qin Dynasty, which was created by Chin Shih Huang and which collapsed soon after his death. A civil war then ensued, and 'Han' was the name of the ancient dynasty which finally took power. Until the Han dynasty fell, many Chinese described themselves as 'living in the kingdom of Han,' but the concept of a 'Han' society died when the last Han emperors lost power. Let me give you an example. If you have read the ancient novel, 'Journey To The West,' the heroes never describe themselves as 'Han.' Instead, they tell the Buddha that they 'come from Tang' because they lived and achieved moksha during the Tang Dynasty, and they considered themselves to be Tang people. If you had told those characters that they were 'Han,' they would have looked at you like you were crazy. No one used the term 'Han' to describe an 'ethnicity' until the twentieth century, when the Chinese empire decided to modernize by calling itself a republic, and began describing its captive nations as 'minorities.'

To American Observer: The most important part of culture are the langauge, customs and music. If those stays, the culture remain intact. The dialects, music and customs of Quangdong and Fujian remain and they are not from any Chinese Emporer. No Chinese emporers spoke fujian or quandgong dialect. Also there are many dynasties in China. None cared to follow the previous dynasty policy to device or impose new cultures or different cultures for Quandong or fujian. Therefore there is no such thing as erasure of the original cultures and languages of those regions. If China can erase the culture of Quandong and Fujian, they can do the same to Zixang. Do you imply that the Zixang culture is imposed by China too? It is utterly nonsence that culture can be measured by percentge points. Understand ! From your quote "After America occupies Hawaii.... for two thousand years," I predict that USA will be part of China!!!. Have a chuckle.

does that mean that you guys can now shut up about history that you did not take part in so therefore have no way of knowing what you read on paper is true or not?

Can you now pinpoint for us what it is that afflicts humanity in such a way that we exploit each other mercilessly for the benefit of others?
What is it in human nature that drives them to attack each other and steal each other's resources when we live in a planet that if treated appropiately and coaxed to do so will provide any material desired in abundance?
Why are humans intent on causing fear, hate, anguish and despair in each other?

Please try to avoid superficial innanities and placing blame on a particular nation, political system or class. These are subterfuges designed to stroke the ego of the writer and actually offer no viable analysis of the problem, they are merely expected to sew confusion and dischord and appeal to the emotional side of humans when any valid solution can only come from the rational side.

I hope you understand!!

@ A Han People in Canton,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian#History

There were others besides Han.

American observer,

May be you read carefuly the era of each Dynasty of Chinese History from though it's too brief than recorded in Chinese :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Dynasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Wu

This will help you to shut up.

I really don't think digging up the two-thousand-year-old history of Duangdong and Fujian is relevant. Your assumption is that cultures and ethnicities should be static throughout history. They are not and have never been static. Ever since our human ancestors came out of Africa and migrated to Asia and Europe, they form groups, alliances, tribes, kingdoms and empires. They work together to build great civilizations and waged war on others for wealth and resources. Cultures are formed and developed through collaboration as well as conflict.

Duangdong and Fujian were once inhabited by indigenous people called Yue(越). It is a loosely related groups of tribes that lived all over southern China about 2 thousand years ago. They were absorbed into the Chinese(华夏) civilization over centuries all the way up until about 2nd century AD. In fact the name of the modern nation of Vietnam literally means "South of Viet(Yue)". The process of expansion and integration of the Chinese culture took place even before the existence of the Han(汉) ethnic identity. Today, many Westerners scholars still confuse the term Chinese(华夏) with Han(汉). The Chinese(华夏) culture existed long before Han(汉) even came into being. In China, Han(汉) has always been used to identify an ethnic identity while Chinese(华夏) has always been used the identify the nation and civilization.

Ah, the Peanut Brigade is riding.

Non-English Reader says:

"You totally mixed up if Guangdong or Fujian are actually part of China, how come you will consider this is an independent countries? "

American Observer replies:

Because, 'Non-English,' those were independent societies before the Chinese colonialists conquered them two thousand years ago and erased their original cultures and societies. 'Non-English,' you don't even know the history of your own country.

Thmak says:

"You are utterly wrong in saying that 'Two thousand years erasing the original cultures of Guangdong and Fujien,'. Your three years in China must not be spent in those places otherwise you'll find that the natives there still live in their original ancester locations, keep their customs, speak their own dialect, sing their own tunes, etc."

American Observer replies:

No, they don't. The cultures of modern Fujien and modern Guangdong are about five percent original, and the other ninety-five percent is the culture which the Chinese conquerers imposed on them. The fact that there are local variations between different Chinese provinces should not conceal the fact that the Chinese have erased the original cultures and languages of those regions.

Can either one of you two read books? Can you go read a book about your own ancient history before you keep repeating this nonsense?

To : American Observer,
That's why I am urging you to learn Chinese or even you have no patience to simply click into the translation to english. Otherwise, you won't have this stupid question again. Start to learn before you jump too far.

My recomendation for you still is to learn "Common weath State" before you are qualified to talk about Chinese Culture or even Asian Countries. You totally mixed up if Guangdong or Fujian are actually part of China, how come you will consider this is an independent countries? They are the province located at the South of China. How many province in China that you know from your limited knowledge? The success of Hong Kong and S'pore is because they are the Chinese society with the growth of modern enconomic and stable political situation that advocate as the successful capitalized model. Another good reason is most of them have bilingual language capability as a bridge to connect China to the Worldworld. They are benefit from the growth of China for so many years.

Again, don't try to avoid those simple questions if you stayed in China long enough and capable to read and write Chinese, without this knowledge, you can't completely tell us you know Chinese culture. Can you tell what is the concept of Confucious?

The best way to manage you is to totaly ignore your nonsense messages 胡說八道.

It's better to save our energy to care more for those victims from the natural disasters not only in China but in 緬甸 means Myanmar.

To American Observer: It is inconceivable for an educated people like you to use non-appropriate words. You are utterly wrong in saying that "two thousand years erasing the original cultures of Guangdong and Fujien,". Your three years in China must not be spent in those places otherwise you'll find that the natives there still live in their original ancester locations, keep their customs, speak their own dialect, sing their own tunes, etc. There are Hawaiians who want their land back NOW but there are no Guandong or Fujiens want to be independent NOW. Those two proivnces are not overwhelmed by people migrated from other provinces while Hawaii is full of people from the US continnet. Your are so utterly ignorant and wrong. So you understand now. When did I say that ONLY democracy can generate imperialism? Again you know that information is tightly state-controlled, the farmers therefore has no way of knowing the statistics you quoted nor the authors of "Hungry Ghosts". Remember there are about 400 millions farmers at those times. How many you asked? Understand?

Wei says:

"And it is really convenient to bring up culture as an excuse to explain away the economic gap between India and China when u try to avoid the inconvenient fact of the political difference between the two countries."

American Observer replies:

Wei, you truly are an idiot. Everybody in India believes that dictatorship would bring nothing except gulags and chaos to India. Only apologists for the Chinese regime suggest that democracy has made India poor. If you really are a Taiwanese, then you are the first Taiwanese who I have ever seen embrace that view, and you are very much the first critic of the CCP who has. Everybody else, in India or the West, agrees that India has been held back by the syndicates, by the command economy, by the entire concept of Swaraj, and by cultural factors which even people in India call 'the Hindu growth rate.' This view of India's predicament is half a century old, and if you are really so clueless as to think I made it up, then you should spend a few minutes and look up 'swaraj' or 'the Hindu growth rate.' You will find dozens of sources. Truly, a little study would do you good.

I actually am interested in the ideas of Jiaming and I would like to discuss them; but to do that I would have to think, and I only have two minutes free. Therefore, I will spend two minutes smacking on Thmak.

Thmak says:

"People of Fujien and Guangdong are willingly to be part of China as evidenced by the fact that no people are now yearning for independence as some Native Hawaiians and Native Americans do. "

American Observer replies:

That is only because the Chinese have spent two thousand years erasing the original cultures of Guangdong and Fujien, and now your colonialism is complete. After America occupies Hawaii or Arizona for two thousand years, the result will be the same. Do you really think there will still be a 'sovereignity' movement among native Hawaiians two thousand years from now? Do you really think native Hawaiians will look or talk or think differently than all the other people who live on the Hawaiian islands?

Thmak says:

"The fact that Genghis Khan, not a Chinese, was pure imperialistic has nothing to do with China."

American Observer replies:

Actually, I was smashing your theory that only democracies could create imperialism; and if you admit that Genghis Khan was an imperialist, then I have clearly succeeded.

Thmak says:

"How come you don't know that the word Cambodia has been changed?"

American Observer replies:

Oh, I do know. I know that the Khmer Rouge changed the name of Cambodia to Kampuchea, and then when the Khmer Rouge were overthrown the people of Cambodia changed it back. Now, every newspaper or magazine in English calls it Cambodia. Go look it up if you don't believe me, and stop wasting my time.

Thmak says:

"How come you don't know that 'cultural revolution' or 'great leap forward' had never happened in Myanmar?"

American Observer replies:

Excuse me...? Myanmar has had its own share of horrors under different names.

Thmak says:

"Any Chinese farmer who remembers the nineteen-fifties will tell you that those figures fit his memories". Did they told so when you are in China for three years? As reported in the Western media, information was tightly state-controlled. So how did the farmers down in far corners of China know all those statistics."

American Observer replies:

Millions of Chinese farmers remember losing one out of ten members of their families, and in some places a lot more than one out of ten. If you have not read 'Hungry Ghosts,' then you should do it soon.

Thmak says:

"'Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.'" Terrorist means enemy or anyone who opposes his policy. The 'you' means anyone. "

American Observer replies:

Thmak, I speak English a thousand percent better than you do, and I promise that the word 'Terrorist' does not mean 'enemy or anyone who opposes his policy.' Furthermore, Bush gave the speech a week after September eleven, and Bush was referring directly to the al-Qaeda. You are twisting those words to justify your fantasy world.

TO AMERICAN OBSERVER:

If u agree with me, just say so. No need to hide it in some long monologue.

Here is what I said originally:
“The truth is the Western democracy is a very inefficient system. If not for their adoption of the free market economics, Western democracy will be dead. And these two are not inseparable. Look at Hong Kong, Britain never granted Hong Kong people any political rights. The HK governor was not hold accountable to anyone in Hong Kong. But Hong Kong thrived with its Laissez-faire economic policies. Same thing with Singapore. China is really just trying to repeat these success on a much grand scale.”

Here is what AMERICAN OBSERVER Says:
“Now, many countries have both a socialist economy and a political dictatorship. However, there is no reason this economic system and this political system always have to go together. For instance, in the nineteen-thirties the political system of Germany was a dictatorship and the economy was capitalistic; while in the nineteen-seventies, countries like Sweden and India had democratic political systems and economies that were very close to socialistic. In fact, India forbid large private corporations, declaring that the 'commanding heights' of the economy should belong to the government, and employing millions of poor Indians in 'iron rice-bowl' jobs very much like those in China, while blocking almost all foreign investment. In present day China, on the other hand, you have a society very much like that of Germany and Japan in the nineteen-thirties; a ruthless capitalist economy combined with a brutal dictatorship that tried to conquer and destroy other countries, the way the Chinese are doing to Tibet and East Turkestan.”

Seemed like we established democracy and free market economics (or what u call capitalism) after all can be separated. And what drives the economic development in a country? It’s economic system, stupid.
Show me countries succeeded economically without a free market economy? Uh, I have to go.
Show me countries succeeded economically without democracy? China, Chile, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea …

And it is really convenient to bring up culture as an excuse to explain away the economic gap between India and China when u try to avoid the inconvenient fact of the political difference between the two countries. Why didn’t CCP ever thought about that when they tried to explain why Soviet Union Block was defeated in their fight with US? Maybe your next task is to educate people how German Culture failed Hilter.

AO, u seem to know a lot about China. So u should know better about the history of Taiwan. It is really dishonest for u to use Taiwan as an example of democracy. Yes, Taiwan is democracy today and am very proud of it and it should be the model for China. But do u really think Taiwan was a democratic country under KMT when its economic took off? What u said is really an insult to those Taiwanese who suffered greatly under the brutal regime of KMT. Are u going to tell me next that Chile was always a democracy even under General Pinochet (again when its economy was the oasis in the Latin American economic desert.)? The South Korea military rulers were actually closet democratic supporters and the Gwangju Uprising in 1980 was really a lie by the communists? (again when South Korean economy took off)

Wei says:

"U basically claimed India shouldn't be a country in the first place. Didn't u?"

American Observer replies:

No, I did not say that, and there is no way you can pretend that I said anything like it.

Wei, if you really are too stupid to understand what I said, I will try again. First, you will have to understand the terms we are using.

Capitalism is an economic system and Socialism is an economic system. Capitalism is based on private ownership of property, and socialism is based on government ownership of property.

Democracy is a political system and dictatorship is a political system. In a democracy, the people choose the leaders and fire the leaders if the leaders don't do what the people want. In a dictatorship, the leaders choose themselves and kill the people if the people don't do what the dictators want.

Now let us continue. Just as societies have different economic systems and different political systems, societies also have different cultures. The culture of China is materialistic and conformistt. The Chinese worship money more than most societies -- certainly more than Arab, African, or South Asian societies. The people of India, on the other hand, tend to be more spiritual and individualistic. Thus, ordinary people in India can spend large parts of their incomes on weddings and funerals and ritual, in particular the worship of various shrines and idols. In China, on the other hand, Confucius said "Gods and ghosts are real and should be honored with the appropriate rituals, but the wise man avoids speculation." This is why China's spiritual world is so underpopulated when compared with that of India, and that is why so many of China's gods, such as Buddha and the Monkey King, are imported from India.

We can see a fourth way to divide societies. As you know, the people of China are very conformist, and the people of India are very individualistic. This is why the people of traditional China, from Beijing to Guangzhou, were happy to wear similar clothes and worship ancestors in the same way and obey the same emperors. The people of India, on the other hand, have always had a vast variety of costumes and divinities and rulers; this is why throughout most of history, China was ruled by one single dynasty or another, such as the Han or the Song or the Ming, while India has only been ruled by a single ruler for less than a tenth of its history.

So we have established four different dichotomies here, and we can divide societies in four different ways. We can divided political systems between dictatorships or democracies, we can divide economies between capitalist economies or socialist economies, and we can divide cultures between materialistic cultures and spiritual cultures, and finally, we can divide cultures between individualistic cultures and conformist cultures.

Now, many countries have both a socialist economy and a political dictatorship. However, there is no reason this economic system and this political system always have to go together. For instance, in the nineteen-thirties the political system of Germany was a dictatorship and the economy was capitalistic; while in the nineteen-seventies, countries like Sweden and India had democratic political systems and economies that were very close to socialistic. In fact, India forbid large private corporations, declaring that the 'commanding heights' of the economy should belong to the government, and employing millions of poor Indians in 'iron rice-bowl' jobs very much like those in China, while blocking almost all foreign investment. In present day China, on the other hand, you have a society very much like that of Germany and Japan in the nineteen-thirties; a ruthless capitalist economy combined with a brutal dictatorship that tried to conquer and destroy other countries, the way the Chinese are doing to Tibet and East Turkestan.

So when we observe that India is less developed in many ways than China, it is moronic to conclude that this only because of their different political systems. India's spiritual culture and ultra-divided society means that the people of India can rarely agree on anything, from zoning laws to investment programs; and if a dictator tried to make them agree, seven different religions and two thousand different jatis would fight for their dignity and rise against that dictator with far more fury than we have ever seen in Bagdhad. At the same time, India's spiritual culture will usually spend more energy on religious rituals and competition with other jatis than on building new businesses. I will agree that India and China both have several things in common, such as a good work ethic and a respect for education, but unfortunately a lot of that work in India is dedicated to religious activities and a lot of that education is either religious education, or it is liberal arts education dedicated to creating 'gentlemen' rather than doctors or engineers. The teahouses of India are filled with college graduates waiting for government jobs which simply don't come. In a caste society, 'status' is often more important than wealth.

Nonetheless, as I said before, India's democracy has served India well. India's democracy has not created wealth because democracy is a political system and not an economic system. The job of democracy is NOT to create wealth, because the capitalist economic system creates wealth. Instead, the democratic political system does help a society keep tyrants from taking power and it does help the people throw thieves out of office. Thus, Indian democracy has kept India from having a Great Leap Forward or a Cultural Revolution the way the Chinese dictatorship did. India's spiritual and chaotic culture kept the economy from growing quickly, and India's partly socialist partly capitalist economic policy did not help. Those three things, and not the democratic system, are what has held India back.

So, if you want to measure dictatorship against democracy, you have to do what a scientist would do and isolate the variables. To do that it would be stupid to measure a Hindu democracy against a Confucian dictatorship; instead, you would have to measure a Hindu capitalist dictatorship against a Hindu capitalist democracy; or, you would have to measure a Confucian capitalist dictatorship against a Confucian capitalist democracy, and so forth. Can you do that?

Well, China and Taiwan seem made by God for such a comparison, don't they? Both China and Taiwan entered the second half of the twentieth century with the same work ethic and the same respect for education, and both China and Taiwan entered the second half of the twentieth century with the same portion of materialism and conformity. Since then China has had all of the advantages -- more natural resources, and an ocean of cheap labor; but since a common beginning around nineteen-fifty, Taiwan has kept from having a Great Leap Forward and Taiwan has kept from having a Cultural Revolution and Taiwan has kept from having a Tiananmen Massacre and Taiwan has successfully given its people a higher standard of living and a higher standard of personal safety than the People's Republic of China; and Taiwan's democracy did this despite Chinese artillery barrages and Chinese missile attacks and China's constant struggle to throw Taiwan out of the United Nations and stop all diplomatic recognition of Taiwan. If this comparison does not prove the superiority of democracy, then what can? Can you think of a more scientific way to isolate the variables and compare the political systems side by side?

You might try comparing East and West Germany, or North and South Korea, which began with the same cultures, and then went in different directions. As for myself, I feel like I have been educating a school child, and I need to rest.

American Observer:

While I agree that different ethnic and cultural heritage should be preserved as much as we can, I do not subscribe to the notion promoted by the West that political segregation is the answer. Tibetans have their own culture, and so do Hans. The idea that by dividing two ethnic groups geographically where no Hans can enter Tibet and no Tibetans can enter the rest of China is simply a major step backward in human development. In fact, desegregation is exactly the symbol of civil rights in America. In the US, people live along side others of various ethnicities and races, yet their cultures persist. The idea (championed by the Dalai Lama) of segregating Tibetans from the rest of China is unacceptable to Chinese and the world.

The West likes to use the word "colonialism" to describe China's rule on Tibet. The biggest differences that separate China's governance of Tibet and the colonial rule of the western powers in Africa and Asia is that today's Tibetans are not treated differently than Hans. Tibetans can choose to move to any part of China as they please. The people of Africa and Asia under colonial rule could not move to Europe as they like. They were taxed far more heavily than the citizens of Europe. The only thing that Tibetans are not allowed to do is to openly worship the Dalai Lama, which I believe is a bit foolish of the Chinese government. Yet, given the Dalai Lama's outlandish demands for a separate government in Tibet and exclusion of Han Chinese, it does amount to treason in any country. If I were Hu Jintao, I would invite him to come back to Tibet or anywhere else in China that he likes unconditionally. Tibetans can worship him all they want. As for political demands, Tibet is and will continue to be just like any other parts of China. By forbidding the worshiping of the Dalai Lama, Beijing is only creating more demands for him.

Oh yes, the masturbation fest continues while the rest of the world wonders what comes next.

Haven't you guys blown your wad yet? Or are you still pumping hard futilely at something that will bring forth no progeny? morons.

American Observer say:
"Wei, did you really not understand what I said, or are you just playing stupid again? A while back you said that you like to act like a troll. Are you doing the same thing again?"

U are very good at changing the subject. Didn't u claim China already beat India in terms of economic development? (and BTW for the record, I never said I liked to act like a troll. I said AO is a troll. U really don't need to sink so low to brazenly fabricate what other people said.)

As for the rest of ur stuff in the previous post, it's really just some BS to the Indian people. U basically claimed India shouldn't be a country in the first place. Didn't u?

American Observer says:
"Today the nation of India is divided into seven different religions, most of which have a history of fighting wars with each other; and furthermore the majority of people in India belong to Hinduism, which itself is divided into five 'varnas' and more than two thousand 'jatis,' most of which also hate each other. "

If u get ur way, u probably would like to see the break-up of India just like the break-up of China.

I think China is yet to prove it can be the model for the third world. But if we follow your statement, what other logic conclusion one can draw? If the conclusion sounds stupid, don't blame me, I am just following your statement.

To American Obaerver: People of Fujien and Guangdong are willingly to be part of China as evidenced by the fact that no people are now yearning for independence as some Native Hawaiians and Native Americans do. So colonialism does not apply there. The fact that Genghis Khan, not a Chinese, was pure imperialistic has nothing to do with China. The same that USA invaded Iraq under false pretences has nothing to do with China. Understand? "I don't believe you" indicates your mental reasoning is on the wrong path. How come you don't know that the word Cambodia has been changed? How come you don't know that 'cultural revolution' or 'great leap forward' had never happened in Myanmar? "...living in a fantasy world. Any Chinese farmer who remembers the nineteen-fifties will tell you that those figures fit his memories". Did they told so when you are in China for three years? As reported in the Western media, information was tightly state-controlled. So how did the farmers down in far corners of China know all those statistics. If they do, they must be listening to Voice of America, an anti-China USA propaganda media. Still don't understand? 'Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.'" Terrorist means enemy or anyone who opposes his policy. The 'you' means anyone. So there is no twist in interpretation. I hope you are a real Chinese.

If China is to move toward a more democratic nation, Western democracy is not the way to go. The notion that every adult in a society has equal say in deciding who will be the next leaders of their country is fundamentally unsound. A highly educated individual who has the capacity to understand the issues facing the nation and what are the practical solutions should always have a greater say in selecting the leaders than a janitor who has hardly read a book in his whole life.

The selection of the leadership should be the responsibility of the elites while the entire general population should have to the right to remove unfit leaders from office. In the US, the system is exactly the opposite. Politicians like Bush and Cheney are sent into the White House by the mostly blue-collar masses who possess little knowledge of the complex economic issues and world politics. All they care about is whether their elected leaders believe in Jesus. However, when it becomes clear that these elected leaders are steering the country into a disaster, the US Constitution makes it almost impossible for the masses to have a vote on their removal.

The masses are great at identifying unfit rulers, but stink at finding capable ones. The elites on the other hand are good at identifying good leaders, but really bad at (and often unwilling to) removing bad ones.

The next ten, twenty years is the golden opportunity for China build a political framework in which the people are given more power to check against unfit leaders while maintaining the crucial function of the elites to select a capable government. Learn from the mistakes of the West instead of blindly following it like all the other countries do.

Wei says:

"On one side it’s the largest democracy in the world, on the other side, u have the largest authoritarian state in the world. If China did indeed beat India in economic development, isn’t obvious which country should be the model for all the developing countries?"

American Observer replies:

Wei, did you really not understand what I said, or are you just playing stupid again? A while back you said that you like to act like a troll. Are you doing the same thing again?

American Observer says:

"Wei, the People's Republic of China has already defeated India in terms of economic development."

I don’t think the race between China and India is over. But for the sake of argument, let’s say u were right and China already beat India in economic development, what lesson would we have learnt here? On one side it’s the largest democracy in the world, on the other side, u have the largest authoritarian state in the world. If China did indeed beat India in economic development, isn’t obvious which country should be the model for all the developing countries? U just become the no.1 apologist on this board for all the dictators in the third-world countries.
As the largest democracy competes with the largest authoritarian country, if u think China has won the competition over India, why should the Chinese then follow your advise and march towards democracy? Based on your logic, one can only conclude u want to hold back the progress in China so that India can catch up.

Non-English Reader says:

"In your last point, you have totally mixed up what is the culture and what is the political event that has no right or wrong but history will certainly make the judgement."

American Observer replies:

'Non-English,' you are not writing in English. As far as I can tell, you seem to be saying that some things which happen in China are a result of Chinese culture, and some things which happen in China are a result of Chinese politics, in particular Communist politics. If that is what you mean, then I would agree; but at the same time we have to recognize that sometimes culture and politics become mixed together. Perhaps you can help with this.

Since you claim to understand Chinese culture, 'Non-English', will you tell us how to recognize which parts are 'truly Chinese' and which parts are 'merely Communist'? If you want to say that the Great Leap Forward was 'merely Communist' and not 'truly Chinese,' I am willing to hear you, and if you want to say that the 'Cultural Revolution' was 'merely Communist' and not 'truly Chinese' I will certainly listen; and if you want to say that the Tiananmen Massacre was 'mere Communist' and not 'truly Chinese,' I will pay attention to your argument. But if you say that these enormous crimes were not 'truly Chinese,' will you tell us why not? And then will you tell us why we should rely on the Chinese Communist Party to do things which are consistent with Chinese values as you understand them?

After that you can explain Chinese foreign policy for us. Will you tell if China's attacks on Korea and Vietnam and Tibet and Xinjiang are 'merely Communist?' Or, were those attacks 'truly Chinese?' If China's invasion of Korea in 1950 was 'truly Chinese,' why was it 'truly Chinese?' If China's invasion of Korea was 'merely Communist,' can you tell us what the difference is between an invasion which is launched by the Qin or Han dynasties and an invasion which is launched by the Chinese Communist Party? And why does China continue to occupy a large part of Korea in the 'Yanbian Korean Autonomous Prefecture?' Will you tell us if the 'good Confucian gentleman' invades other countries and occupies their land and fills it with settlers the way the Chinese are doing in the 'Yanbian Korean Autonomous Prefecture?'

I could go on at length, but you should be able to understand what I am saying clearly enough. Instead of telling me that I do not understand and then giving me a link, I invite you to answer my questions directly and explain everything by yourself.

To American Observer:

You pose a tough question.
I honestly do not know what the future will be.

But I do know that Tibetans and Uighurs are officially recognized minorities,
just as Native Americans are recognized in many states.

Today, the world is getting smaller, with inter-ethnic marriages more and more common.

Inter-cultural exchanges are routine as well.
Even Tibetans and Uighurs watch MTV.
Americans doing Tai-Chi and Chinese doing skateboarding (Oh my, Chinese cultural genocide).

How do you classify Tiger Wood's or Obama's or even your own ethnicity?
In the far future, who knows, maybe there is only one ethnic classification - human earthling.

We have some differences, but even husbands and wives do fight sometimes.
I think we can get along.

After had long observed the consistent, and ever improving performance displayed here by this outstanding individual, Comrade 'American Observer', here I declare, with pride and delight, the award of annual best international act of 'RED Guard' goes to 'American Observer' !!!

Clapping.....

Also I would like to take this opportunity to announce this deserving individual is promoted to be the chief of 'Red Guard' north america branch.

Cheering....

He has shown his undisputed talents and deep commitments do the true spirits of the guardism; waging personal attacks, deploying verbal assaults, and expertly twisting facts. When all those fails, he just simply switches into barking ruthlessly and relentlessly. All the essential quality which are dear to the guardship have been represented by him in the fullest glory.

Some may say, 'he is an american, he is not red!'
but I shall say, what the heck, it doesn't matter if he is red or white,or any other colour, as long as he abuses, accuses, attacks and assaults like a guard, he is a GOOD Guard.

Deafening applauses.....

To : American Observer,

Regretfully in your three years in China, you were not well cared and coached enough. Did you learn simplfied Chinese or traditional one. When the simplfied chinese evolved? I am not a frequent reader but just can't afford your naive knowledge about China. Without knowing who am I, your statement is just like a child telling everybody here you know more than a stranger who dare to challenge your nonsenses.

I will enourage you going back to China & start to learn Chinese, without spending over 10 years across the major province, what you said about China is not convinced.

Search the best of American Library or TV record, after 911, George Bush did say such statement. However, you totally mis-interpreted the meaning of what does it mean. It's the human psychology and strategy to determine how a person's behavior in dealing with different people. You don't need to tell us you like Hullary or Obama. It's your personal decision that we don't care. I can see from this point you can't accept others opinion which is too dangerous living in such an extremed motion of isolation.

In your last point, you have totally mixed up what is the culture and what is the political event that has no right or wrong but history will certainly make the judgement. The main point back to this forum is your question here once again demonstrated your mindset is not logical and rational but blinding to anti-China is my observation.)

Now, let me teach you the first chapter - Commonwealth State from http://www.confucius.org/mainc.htm.

When you guys get a minute from rehashing a history that you did not take part in and by all accounts has been distorted by the victors in such a way to make it useless as a frame of reference. And once you stop accusing each other for all the transgressions of your forbears and others who have absolutely no relevance in the current reality... you might turn your attention to the fact that your leadership misleads, abuses and exploits you. Regardless of the banner you wish to fly. You may notice that the healthcare structure that is suppossed to heal the infirm and improve the quality of life of those in the last years of life is actually nothing more than a profit making entity based on deception of those not as savvy as those who could afford years and years of disinformation. If you play really close attention, you will notice that the government structures that are suppossed to protect you, oppress you instead and make it possible for a well connected few to amass wealth and prosperity while their counterparts starve.

Humanity knows what is wrong and what is right. They also know how to implement those ideas that help us prosper and to inculcate those attitudes that bring harmony and prosperity. Unfortunatelly, the opposite is being forced upon us. Divisiveness is imposed upon us. The ones at the top create the conditions for those at the bottom to do their bidding, and some are quite willing to do that bidding as long as they are fed the ocassional breadcrumb and their cage is periodicaly cleaned. All sides are guilty of this, all sides are needed to fix it. Stop bickering amongst yourselves and realize there is a real, foreign entity causing your deviation from common sense.
Recognize your true enemy and eliminate it and you will have eternal prosperity.

We Are Quite Alike says:

"As I said, China is in some ways like America.

Americans conquered native Americans by force and deliberately filled their lands with American settlers."

American Observer says:

We agree. You did the same thing to Guangdong and Fujien two thousand years ago and you did the same thing to Manchuria and Inner Mongolia in the twentieth century. Now, let's talk about the future. Do you think the Chinese empire will succeed in doing the same thing to the Tibetans and the Uighers today? That is the question that matters most, and I would love to get your answer.

As I said, China is in some ways like America.

Americans conquered native Americans by force and deliberately filled their lands with American settlers.

We Are Quite Alike says"

"Chinese are a melting pot of Tibetan, Mongol, Manchu and various Chinese tribes."

American Observer replies:

That statement is false. The various groups of European and Asian American willingly choose to cross the ocean to become part of America. The Koreans in the Yanbai Korean Autonomous Prefecture and the Mongols in Inner Mongolia never made a choice to become part of China. Instead, you Chinese conquered them by force and deliberately filled their lands with Chinese settlers, the way the Israelis are trying to fill the West Bank. You would like to do the same thing in Tibet and East Turkestan, but those countries are so rugged and bare that your people do not want to live there; and the Uighers and the Tibetans will keep fighting until they break free from your empire.

American Observer says,
"What does 'far beyond' mean? Do you think that the native people of Fujien and Guangdong liked being conquered by the Chinese colonialists?"

Yes, China is in some ways like America.

Do you think the native Americans liked being conquered by the US Cavalry?

Caucasian Americans are a melting pot of Europeans.

Chinese are a melting pot of Tibetan, Mongol, Manchu and various Chinese tribes.

Were the Manchus really defeated at the end of the Qing dynasty?
Not really, because they just called themselves Chinese and blended in with the population.

Thmak says:

"Chin Shih Huang was a king in his time constantly fighting with his neighbors and eventually conquering all of them but not far beyond."

American Observer replies:

What does 'far beyond' mean? Do you think that the native people of Fujien and Guangdong liked being conquered by the Chinese colonialists?

Thmak says:

"Genghis Khan was the king of a Mongolian tribe not belong to China when he began to expand his territory."

American Observer replies:

I agree. And the fact that Genghis Khan was not a Chinese proves that his conquest of China was pure imperialism.

Thmak says:

"The land in central Europe conquered by Khan was not included."

American Observer replies:

And that proves that Genghis Khan was an imperialist in Eastern Europe.

Thmak says:

"Therefore they are not colonists and imperialists as the European countries which went far and all over the world to conquer countries that have never have any conflict with them."

American Observer replies:

What conflict did the countries of Eastern Europe have with Genghis Khan have with Mongolia before Genghis Khan attacked them? What conflict did the native peoples of Guangdong and Fujien have with China before the Chinese colonialists attacked them? As usual, your argument makes no sense.

Thmak says:

"I was not born between 1945-1960, not educated in China and have never spend more than three years there as you did."

American Observer replies:

To be honest, I don't believe you. You show the personality and the reasoning of a Red Guard. Furthermore, you claims undercut your position. Are you really saying that you are not Chinese? Did any of your family have to live in China during the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution? If you are not a real Chinese, but only a 'Chinese' from Singapore or Hong Kong or some place that was protected by the West during those years, that would explain your inability to feel the tragedy of modern Chinese history.

Thmak says:

"Bush did say " You are either with me or against me" which can be interpreted to mean "If you are not my friend, you are my enemy!".

American Observer replies:

No, that is wrong. According to Wikipedia, "President George W. Bush, in an address to a joint session of Congress on September 20, 2001 said, 'Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.'" Bush was referring to America's war with the Al-Queda, and not to anything else. You and 'Non-English speaker' are twisting those words to make them mean something completely different.

Thmak says:

"What happened in China can never happen in India. Therefore it is completely absurd to talk about 'cultural revolution', 'great leap forward', 'communism', 'dictator' in India."

American Observer replies:

Wrong. What happened in China also happened in Cambodia. It was called 'The Killing Fields.' What happened in China would have happened in India if the Communists had taken over India.

Thmak says:

"By your statistics, there are 60 millions killed due to the cultural revolution and the great leap forward. At that time there were only 500 million Chinese to the best estimate. That means more than one out of ten was killed. This figure is absurd."

American Observer replies:

Thmak, you are living in a fantasy world. Any Chinese farmer who remembers the nineteen-fifties will tell you that those figures fit his memories very accurately.

Thmak, you claim that you were 'not educated in China and have never spend more than three years there.' If those claims are not true, then you are not a real Chinese, and that would explain your complete ignorance of modern Chinese history. I suggest that you cure your ignorance by reading 'Hungry Ghosts: Mao's Secret Famine' by Jasper Becker.

To America Observer: Chin Shih Huang was a king in his time constantly fighting with his neighbors and eventually conquering all of them but not far beyond. Genghis Khan was the king of a Mongolian tribe not belong to China when he began to expand his territory. It is only after his successor in China changed to call themselves the Yuan dynasty that made the China territory to include the land previously controlled by this successor, namely Mongolia, Zinjiang. The land in central Europe conquered by Khan was not included. Therefore they are not colonists and imperialists as the European countries which went far and all over the world to conquer countries that have never have any conflict with them. I still hope you understand. Your rash rhetoric does not reflect your education. I was not born between 1945-1960, not educated in China and have never spend more than three years there as you did. You guess is wrong as you posts. Bush did say " You are either with me or against me" which can be interpreted to mean "If you are not my friend, you are my enemy!". I still hope you can understand. India is India and China is China. What happened in China can never happen in India. Therefore it is completely absurd to talk about 'cultural revolution', 'great leap forward', 'communism', 'dictator' in India. I do not want to call you the equivalent of 'Red Guard' in the West. I still hope you can understand. By your statistics, there are 60 millions killed due to the cultural revolution and the great leap forward. At that time there were only 500 million Chinese to the best estimate. That means more than one out of ten was killed. This figure is absurd. Ask any Chinese to find out if this statistic is correct. I still hope you can understand.

To American Observer,

I sense from your posts that you have nothing against the Chinese people or culture, but is only against the Commie government and it's supporters.

However, please know that many many Chinese people support their government.

'Great Leap Forward' or 'Cultural Revolution' or'1989 student protest' had been occurred many years ago. China has learnt from its past mistake. We should look forward to prevent this mistake from happening again. American observer should not always use these past mistake to attack China. Nowaday China is different from the past. American observer should not always use this past mistakes to represent nowadays modern China's leadership and Chinese Government.

Wei says:

"Even if China is merely perceived to beat the largest democracy India in terms of economic development, West will absolutely have no more credibility in pushing democracy in the developing countries."

American Observer replies:

Wei, the People's Republic of China has already defeated India in terms of economic development. Taiwan has also defeated India in terms of economic development, and South Korea and Japan have also defeated India in terms of economic development; and Japan and Taiwan and South Korea are all democracies. Therefore, only a handful of idiots believe that these defeats happened because the People's Republic of China is a dictatorship. Instead, everyone else recognizes that India is also known as 'Hindustan,' and the values of Hinduism make India as different from China as either country is from Australia or Algeria. Today the nation of India is divided into seven different religions, most of which have a history of fighting wars with each other; and furthermore the majority of people in India belong to Hinduism, which itself is divided into five 'varnas' and more than two thousand 'jatis,' most of which also hate each other. Social cooperation on any issue is almost impossible in India, because each caste is more interested in keeping from being humiliated by other castes than it is in advancing the country or even making money. Intelligent thinkers recognize that India is held back by its traditional society, not by its political system. Nonetheless, we should give credit to India's economic system for keeping India from sliding into the gutter of a 'Great Leap Forward' or 'Cultural Revolution' the way the People's Republic of China did. Historians acknowledge that the Great Leap Forward killed forty-eight to fifty-million people in China, and that the Cultural Revolution killed ten million people in China. Imagine what would happen if Communists took over and started a 'cultural revolution' in a country whose culture was already as anarchic and filled with hatred as the culture of India! The death toll and the destruction could easily be ten times worse. If India were ruled by a Communist Party, then the violence and stupidity of Communism plus the inherent weakness of a Hindu society would have made India's situation far worse than it is today.

Wei says:

"The truth is today’s western democracy is really just one step away from the mob democracy the American founding fathers so afraid of."

American Observer replies:

Wei, comparing modern American life to 'mob rule' is like a sick old woman saying that civilization has broken down because her coffee has gotten cold. If you think you know what 'mob rule' means, I suggest you read a few books about a country which really has been forced into mob rule. You might start with 'Hungry Ghosts: Mao's Secret Famine' by Jasper Becker, and 'China: Alive in the Bitter Sea' by Fox Butterfield and even 'Scarlet Memorial: Tales Of Cannibalism In Modern China' by Yi Zheng. As I have said before, if you have never read 'Hungry Ghosts' then you simply do not understand China, no matter how many kings and battles you can talk about.

American Observer says:
"Everything I read here suggests that the PRC is just like so many other Third-World dictarships, where the ruling class debates how to modernize the economy and the culture without liberalizing to the point that the masses or other political parties can take power for themselves and throw the rulers out of the money-bin. Quite frankly, I see nothing 'new' or 'revolutionary' in any of it."

Well u may be right. But I won’t bet on it. Many Western opinion leaders don’t seem to be as confident as u are either. That’s why they are so afraid of China. Not so much because of her economic power or military power, but her ideology attraction to other third world countries. Even if China is merely perceived to beat the largest democracy India in terms of economic development, West will absolutely have no more credibility in pushing democracy in the developing countries. And can u image what if China actually beat India in economic development? And if u are honest, u have to admit China is ahead in the game right now. We are probably only at the top of 6th inning, and India has plenty of chance of catching up and beating China at the end. But until that happens, for the third world, China looks like a creditable alternative to the Western model. Let’s face it, that’s the real reason the West can’t tolerate China. That’s why the West is so upset when China moved into Africa.
The truth is the Western democracy is a very inefficient system. If not for their adoption of the free market economics, Western democracy will be dead. And these two are not inseparable. Look at Hong Kong, Britain never granted Hong Kong people any political rights. The HK governor was not hold accountable to anyone in Hong Kong. But Hong Kong thrived with its Laissez-faire economic policies. Same thing with Singapore. China is really just trying to repeat these success on a much grand scale. There is no guaranty it will work. But it’s also too early to write it off. I have been writing off CCP since 89 as a college freshman back then.
The truth is today’s western democracy is really just one step away from the mob democracy the American founding fathers so afraid of. They tried their best in the Constitution to limit the political rights only to the privileged one, setting up education and economic barriers to the voting rights, not to mention racial and gender barriers. And u know what, US flourished under such a “democracy”. So did the Great Empire of the Britain in the 19th century.
As a libertarian, it’s not my pleasure to see the demise of freedom and democracy. But for all those arrogant and brain-washed westerners, there is no guarantee your western democracy model will not be replaced by some other model, even abhorrent ones, as in your first try when the “democratic” Athens was defeated by the authoritarian Sparta.

I used to get angry to see someone like "American Observer" posting. After a while I understand these anti-Chinese posts and my anger are totally unproductive, so I moved on. And I should mind more than these half-true accusations. After all, China is my own country and I should do my part to improve it. Not Westerners, but only ourselves, can save our nation.

American Observer's posts have enough facts, but seldom draw sounding conclusions. Too much personal attacks, too. Like I said, these are better left ignored.

I have been researching some of the books which 'Katrina' listed on this web site. The more I look into them, the more often I find that many of these books simply do not support 'Katrina's point of view. For example, Katrina refered to "What Does China Think?" by Mark Leonard. I found the book on the amazon.com web site, and I found a review written by one of the readers. Instead of presenting the People's Republic of China as a dynamo transforming the world with new ideas, the reviewer quotes the book as saying, and I quote:

"Since Deng Xiaoping opted for a market economy within the political dictatorship, the growth of China has been extraordinary. But with this growth have come problems: pollution, growing economic inequalities, the yearning for political democracy, and the infusion (perhaps one might even say the 'invasion') of ideas foreign and inimical to the perceived interests of the communist state. To fight the disagreeable ideas from without, the government has trained 'an e-police force of 100,000 people employed to scour the net, blocking sites and checking e-mails.'

Leonard allows that this number may be exaggerated, but the point is clear: China wants to modernize, and to do so, must learn from the West, but at the same time it must not allow Western ideas to ferment dissention at home. Just how this delicate tightrope walk works in the public forums for China's leading thinkers is part of what makes this book interesting.

The 'New Right' which led the change from Mao's soviet style economy to what the Chinese call 'Yellow River Capitalism,' which ushered in the gargantuan economic growth, has come under fire from various quarters, including the 'New Left' which unlike the 'old left' supports market reforms. However, as Wang Hui sees it, 'China is caught between the two extremes of misguided socialism and crony capitalism....' He adds, 'We must not give total priority to GDP growth to the exclusion of worker's rights and the environment.' (p. 33) 'Princeling' Pan Yue (as some of the privileged and talented members of the younger Chinese generation are called) 'has talked of `China's environmental suicide,' and in an interview with the German magazine, Der Spiegel, predicted that `China's economic miracle will end soon because the environment can no longer keep pace.'" (p. 42-43)

Cui Zhiyuan, who is professor of Politics and Public Management at the Tsinghua University in Beijing, sees Chinese politics in Machiavellian terms: 'For Machiavelli power was not divided between two levels: the state and the people. Florentine politics was split between three groups, the prince (the `one'), the nobles (the `few') and the people (the `many'). In today's China, the `one' is the Communist Party, the `few' are the super-rich, and the `many' are the people.' (p. 47)"

Unquote.

You can read the rest at http://www.amazon.com/What-Does-China-Think-Leonard/dp/0007230680

Everything I read here suggests that the PRC is just like so many other Third-World dictarships, where the ruling class debates how to modernize the economy and the culture without liberalizing to the point that the masses or other political parties can take power for themselves and throw the rulers out of the money-bin. Quite frankly, I see nothing 'new' or 'revolutionary' in any of it.

Non-English Reader said:

"America Observer, I just have a simple question if you have been in China and read any of Chinese history?"

American Observer replies:

Yes, I spent three years living and working in the People's Republic of China, and I have studied Chinese history at great. As far as I can tell, I know and understand Chinese history better than you do.

Non-English Reader said:

"Don't forget, China has over 5000 years written history, it's our culture and belief that may not be fully understood for someone just touch a little bit of information from outsider with different beliefs and standard."

American Observer replies:

My friend, if you know something we don't, I can only encourage you to put it on the board.

Non-English Reader said:

"Can't you interpret the followings :-

1) George Bush said : If you are not my friend, you are my enermy!

2) Our Sun Tsz said : If you are not my enermy, you are my friend! "

American Observer replies:

My 'Non-English' friend, I will tell you quite simply that I have never liked George Bush. I voted for Bill Clinton, twice; I voted for Al Gore; I voted for John Kerry; and I am going to vote for Barack Obama this fall. Nonetheless, I understand both China and America better than you do -- by far; and I promise you that George Bush never said "If you are not my friend, you are my enermy!" George Bush never said anything like that, and the fact that you will make a claim like that shows that you are prisoner of the propaganda of the Chinese Communist Party.

Nonetheless, I will give you a chance to live up to your claims. You claim to understand Chinese culture, so I hope you can clarify one point of Chinese culture for me. What did Deng Xiao Ping said before he sent the tanks to grind up the students in Tiananmen Square? Was it also something that arose from five thousand years of Chinese culture?

AMERICAN OBSERVER is obviously a troll. People should ignore his rants.

To : America Observer, I just have a simple question if you have been in China and read any of Chinese history? You have expressed full of subjective opinion and bias trying to misleading others on Chinese superstition. You are just like a devil implied the death of the Governor will come after the earth quake. Don't you know we all Chinese have a mission just like Martin in America "I have a Dream". We all strive to re-build what was destroyed in the past. Don't forget, China has over 5000 years written history, it's our culture and belief that may not be fully understood for someone just touch a little bit of information from outsider with different beliefs and standard. Can't you interpret the followings :-
1) George Bush said : If you are not my friend, you are my enermy!
2) Our Sun Tsz said : If you are not my enermy, you are my friend!
So, you see the differece. We love peace, and love and respect to those victims. WE don't need to compare. We've all seen the improvement from China Government how to help the people by heart..not just like politician always taking the chance to critize under such a disasterous earth quake without a sense of mercy and respect to the death.
Watch the TV and news today, you see all Chinese are hand in hand and heart by heart to present our sense of sympathy for those victims and surviors.
Imagine, we hope some day we have one world one dream.

what a dissapointing blog. the chinese here prefer to engage in a little mental masturbation going off on ancient history and whether or not other nations past indiscretions are enough to justify their own misdeeds and how much more evil they can be without actually accepting the evil mantle.
Then earth speaks and shakes herself and turns China from a standing dragon, spitting fire in all directions into a peacock, finding out that all it's feathers were really for decoration, not really for flying. Yet, after just a couple of days of silence and acquiecense, they now return with the same kind of absurdity and bellicosity. I think it is evident that some folks never learn, regardless of how firm and undenyiable a lesson might be. What would china need to fall back in line with civilized behaviour? should the disease afflicting her children spread like wildfire through your capital city? would anyone want to go to an olympics in a city infested with a disease that could kill their children? End your searching into the past for justification for todays transgressions, wrong is wrong regardless of the time and what others are doing or have done. Be responsible for your own deeds and misdeeds. Share the wealth, the people work hard for their few cents a day, why should the factory boss enjoy the fruits fo their labor with a big house and a fancy car when the workers can't affor to even have their own room? Party leaders should work for the people and their well being. Not to enrich themselves and the party at the expense of the workers. Make these concessions, give the Tibetans the promise of prosperity that all should enjoy and the curses befalling China shall go away as quickly as they appeared... except the earthquake damage of course, that is a gift that will engender unity if used properly, if abused and politicized, it will mean this leadership's destruction.

I hope you understand. :D

Thmak says:

"I hope you understand."

American Observer says:

I don't 'understand,' Thmak, and I am not going to 'understand.' I have shown, over and over again, that Chin Shih Huang was a colonialist and a totalitarian, and I have shown, over and over again, that Chin Shih Huang and Genghis Khan were both imperialists, and you have not offered an argument or even a ghost of an argument to the contrary. Under no circumstance will you ever be able to offer a definition of 'imperialism' which does not fit Chin Shih Huang and Genghis Khan; under no circumstance will you ever be able to offer a definition of 'colonialism' which does not fit Chin Shih Huang; under no circumstance will you ever be able to offer a definition of 'totalitarianism' which does not fit Chin Shih Huang; and under no circumstance will you ever be able to explain how the West or the French Revolution is responsible for the crimes of Chin Shih Huang or Genghis Khan. No one will ever be able to understand your arguments, Thmak, because your arguments are complete nonsense.

Now, one more thing. The reason I refer to you as a 'former' Red Guard is that you think and speak like one. Like all Red Guards, you seem to believe that repeating the same statement over and over again will persuade other people even if your theory is transparently untrue and even if your theory has already been disproved. Like all Red Guards, you believe that focused hysteria will impress other people; like all Red Guards, you believe that only white people can be imperialists; like all Red Guards, you cannot recognize the difference between peaceful resistance and full-scale war, because to you all 'struggles' are the same; and like all Red Guards, you believe that any sentence which contains the term 'Native Americans' will make Americans fall silent with shock and awe. Modern Chinese don't have those habits, Thmak. Oh, modern Chinese may have been told the same things in school, but Chinese born after the Red Guard era can recognize logic when they hear it, and you never can and never will.

I mean everything that I say. I am convinced, Thmak, that you were born in the People's Republic of China between 1945 and 1960 and I am convinced that you received indoctrination as a Red Guard and I am convinced that you wore the red armband and that you participated in crimes against the Chinese people; and if anybody on this board wants to understand how to recognize a 'former' Red Guard, all you readers have to to is to read your posts and memorize your way of speaking and your way of reasoning, and you will be able to spot a Red Guard a mile away.

Thmak says:

"I hope you understand."

American Observer says:

I don't 'understand,' and I am not going to understand. I have shown, over and over again, that Chin Shih Huang was a colonialist and a totalitarian, and I have shown, over and over again, that Chin Shih Huang and Genghis Khan were both imperialists, and you have not offered an argument or even a ghost of an argument to the contrary. Under no circumstance will you ever be able to offer a definition of 'imperialism' which does not fight Chin Shih Huang and Genghis Khan; under no circumstance will you ever be able to offer a definition of colonialism which does not fit Chin Shih Huang; under no circumstance will you ever be able to offer a definition of 'totalitarianism' which does not fit Chin Shih Huang; and under no circumstance will you ever be able to explain how the West or the French Revolution is responsible for the crimes of Chin Shih Huang or Genghis Khan. No one will ever be able to understand your arguments, Thmak, because your arguments are complete nonsense.

Now, one more thing. The reason I refer to you as a 'former' Red Guard is that you reason like one. Like all Red Guards, you seem to believe that repeating the same statement over and over again will persuade other people even if is transparently untrue and has already been disproved. If anybody on this board wants to understand how to recognize a 'former' Red Guard, all those readers have to to is to read your posts and memorize your way of speaking and your way of reasoning.

512 will now be remembered in China just as 911 is remembered in America.

It's all well having a discussion or argument about China's government and system but why is that when a nationalistic or patriotic Chinese (or anyone else) tries to defend his country they are called a "paid/amateur CCP hack commentators" and "red guards"?

Anyone who has any sense of pride in their country would argue for it and obviously is not going to simply take every bias accusation a person throws at them without arguing back.
I agree there are problems in China, and both sides have some valid points and invalid points but to just accuse the pro-Chinese side of being "red guards" is like accusing a Muslim defending his religion/country as being a terrorist or a Satan worshipper (as many Christian conservatives have).

I have no doubt that they have been 'influenced' by the government, as happens in any country. After all, a democracy still needs a majority of people's support of the government to be elected. Also, people's thoughts in all countries are influenced by their respective media bias, but it is just wrong to accuse Thmak as a "red guard".

To American Observer: You have been trying to rally support to your nonsense from this post without success. Instead, more posts are against your nonsense, indicating that yours are really nonsense. I hope you understand. China and Japan were under the onslaught by Western powers during the colonial era. Japan was quick to adapt by adopting the Western style of military prowness and soon joined and competed with the Western countries to plunder China leading to the start of WWII. That is ,the West ignited the fuse of WWII. I hope you understand, crawler. Chin Shih Huang is a king at that time as any other king. So he should be judged as a king during those times as any other king. He professed himself and
behaved as a king. He didn't champion the idea of 'free' and 'democracy' as the West do after the French revolution. Only the West professes and champions "free' and democracy' but yet have slavery and dictatorship and caused the worst human calamities ever as I mentioned before. Your comparison is irrelevnt. I hope you understand.

@American Observer
Since the comments are going too far off-topic its probably best not to respond to the CCP apologists anymore. I would like to read more comments from you, can you recommend any other good blogs?

Is American Observer an ID for Mr. John Pomfret himself?

He seems a little desperate for an audience, :)

Sichuan earthquake intervals are in time scales of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years.

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2008/2008-05-18-01.asp

We have two slow students on this board. A former Red Guard named who calls himself 'Thmak' has announced that 'All what you call dictators or facists in the West are the results of the the democratic process in those western countries'; and a dizzy youth who calls himself 'Katrina Something-Or-Other' has declared that something called 'Western Hegemony' is about to be overthrown, but at the same time Katrina admits that he does not have time to tell us what Western Hegemony is, and Katrina does not have time to tell us how it is going to be overthrown, unless it is by an ocean of cheap Asian labor. I could sit down and refute both of them -- for the third time in each case -- but I wonder why I bother.

Is there any one here who respects their claptrap? Indeed, are there any other readers here at all? If this board really does have an audience, I will remind Thmak that Japan invaded Manchuria before Ethiopia invaded Italy and before Germany invaded Austria, and therefore, Japan really did start World War Two; and then I will remind Thmak that Chin Shih Huang was a colonialist, two thousand years before the French Revolution, and Chin Shih Huang was also a totalitarian, two thousand years before the French Revolution; then I will turn my attention to Katrina and show him that China is more like Saudia Arabia than anything else, because where Saudia Arabia has nothing to give except oil, China has nothing to give except cheap labor, but the quantity of oil in Saudia Arabia and the quantity of cheap labor in China can make enough rich businessmen and giant shopping malls to conceal how intellectually bankrupt both societies are. Like I say, I can do that, but first I need a sense that there is somebody else reading this.

What about it, folks? Is there anyone else here?

In a previous post, I have written briefly about “my China”… I also said I was “not here to teach but to learn”. Assuming there are other readers who are still eager to learn, “beyond all the futile bashing, the cheap, crude propaganda and so much wishful thinking”, as I said, I feel I ought to have the decency to give some sources where has been expressed, better than I myself now can and have time to do, what I was referring to, with a smile, as “my (new, latest) China”. So here they are, as they come; I hope my sources help other people (as they have helped me) understand better the new world order we all seem to be heading for.

1. Parag Khanna, “Waving Goodbye to Hegemony” (NY Times Magazine, 2008) and “The Second World: Empires and Influence in the New Global Order” (Random House, 2008); 2. Kishore Mahbubani, “The New Asian Hemisphere: the Irresistible Shift of Global Power to the East” (NY, Public Affairs, 2008), and “Can Asians Think?” (Key Porter Books, 2001); 3. Ted C. Fishman, “China Inc: How the Rise of the Next Superpower Challenges America and the World” (Scribner, 2005); 4. Mark Leonard, “What Does China Think?” (Fourth Estate, 2008); 5. Erik Izraelwicz, “Quand la Chine change le monde (When China Changes the World)” (Grasset, 2005). Wishing to look back on the transition that has led us where we are, one might still find it interesting to peruse Alain Peyrefitte’s “La Chine s’est éveillée (China Has Awakened)”, Fayard, 1996. Of course, none of those writings will ever be a substitute to living in China and coming to know the country and its people with eyes and ears wide opened... Yet they may help us understand by moving us away from our widespread intellectual rut.

“Sadly, despite this huge shift in history, Western intellectual life continues to be dominated by those who continue to celebrate the supremacy of the West, not by those who say that the time has come for the West to give up its global domination and share power gracefully. Power is rarely ceded easily. It is perfectly natural to resist any transfer of power. The West will find it difficult… They cannot conceive that a better world could emerge without Western supremacy.” (Kishore Mahbubani)

To American Observer: 7.1 is much less severe that 7.8. The school in China are multi-stories while USA school is ground level one story. So the destructive scale is much different. Poor design was leveled at the NYC Twin towers and the Pentagon building after 9/11 too. The blame game is childish. I hope you understand. All what you call dictators or facists in the West are the results of the the democratic process in those western countries and the idea of 'free' to do ' and anything one wants as you mentioned. 'Free' and 'democracy' came from the French revolution, ahead of WWI and colonialism and are the driving force of Western political institution ever since. I hope you understand. Did you say ONE is free to do this and that in USA? So why Branch Davidians are not free to do what they want to do and, instead, had to be forced by deadly force to give up? I hope you understand. Calling people names such as 'Red Guard' indicates that you are running out of rationale. Japan did not start WWII. The Western countries did. Japan just joint to share the bounty only. The sterilization law is there. Any charge against it is therefore illegal. Can you charge that any law in USA is illegal and oppressive? I hope you understand.

To American Observer: Did I read that you spread the news that the Xangs in the Sichuan earth quake areas are left to themselves without food and shelter, 'shot' to death, 'tortured' if they don't evacuate their devastated homes, the wounded are left to die and the females are 'raped' by the rescue teams among the ruins.

Thmak says:

"To American Observer: 7.8 scale Earth quake can destroy anything school in USA."

American Observer replies:

The Loma Prieta quake in California in 1989 registered 7.1 on the Richter scale, and the Loma Prieta quake destroyed NO schools at all. Even if one or two schools might have fallen under any circumstance if those schools were directly over the epicenter of the quake, the Chinese empire managed to crush students in their classrooms even when those classrooms were dozens or even hundreds of miles away. That is why the people in the quake zone are raging against the corruption of the Chinese Communist Party.

Thmak says:

"Democracy has come to the West and look that the West had created the worst world-wide human calamities, such as WWI, WWII, colonialism, Native American genocide..."

American Observer replies:

The First War was started by the Germans, Austrians, and Turks, who were all dictatorships; the Second World War was begun by the Fascists of Italy, the National Socialists of Germany, and the military regime of Japan, all of whom hated democracy just like you do; and anyway, the Japanese were hardly 'Western.' Colonialism is thousands of years old, and is much older than democracy; unless you are a complete idiot, you will not forget Chinese colonialism against Fujien and Guangdong and Guilin, or Arab colonialism against the Copts in Egypt or the Berbers in Algeria; and hopefully, you have not forgotten the biggest colonialist of all, Genghis Khan, whom many Chinese consider to be a 'Chinese.' As for the deaths of Native Americans, tell me -- do you even know who Hernando Cortez or Francisco Pizarro were?

The rest of your post is drivel. What do you mean by 'most sophisticated?' You know as well as I that Red Guards like you can come to our country and say anything you want, while your country hauls people to the LaoGai for speaking Chinese opinions on Chinese soil. As for the Branch Davidians, I would love to hear what would happen to a cult who collected high-powered weapons in China and then choose to go down blasting rather than give them up.

Thmak says:

"All Chinese women are sterilized if they violate the China population policy. That is the law. I hope you understand what is law and order."

American Observer replies:

And when you say 'Chinese,' you include victims of the Chinese colonialists, such as Tibetans, Uighers, Mongols, and Koreans from their 'autonomous prefecture.' I am glad that you have taken the time to confirm that the Tibetan charges are true.

I want to thank you, Thmak. I am convinced that you are a 'former' Red Guard, because you still rave like a Red Guard; but you have done two good things today. First, you have proved that you can take a boy out of the Red Guards, but you cannot take the Red Guards out of the boy. Secondly, you have proven the accusations which the Tibetan women have made, and by doing so you have struck a hammer blow against the face of the Chinese empire. Every reader here is in your debt.

To American Observer: Did I hear you spread the news that the Xangs in Sichuan earth quake areas are being left to themselves, shot to death because they cannot be helped, tortured if they don't moved out of the devastated areas, the wounded are left to die without medical help. The Xangs females are raped

To American Observer: 7.8 scale Earth quake can destroy anything school in USA. Schools in China are multi-stories, so they are more prone to destruction due to earth quakes. Blaming that "schools which were built in substandard ways because your greedy contractors paid bribes to the officials of your Communist Party" indicates how ignorant you are. I hope you understand. Democracy has come to the West and look that the West had created the worst world-wide human calamities, such as WWI, WWII, colonialism, Native American genocide, and now millions of Iraqi are refugees and are being displaced, hundred of thousands or Iraqis are being killed and maimed, worst in modern times. What good is democracy? Democracy is a curse!. I hope you understand. "The second thing you should remember is that we are free" so free that USA have the hightest inmates population than any country in the world". "we can think and say anything we like without being afraid of being crushed under tanks and or sent to the LaoGai" is contradicted by that fact the USA has the most sophisticated electronic surveillance of its citizens in the world, that it has secrete and unaccessible rendition centers around the world, that it is the first country in the world to institute the most sophisticated control system for its foreign visitors, that Vernon Howell, aka David Koresh, leader of the Branch Davidians, died along with 75 others in the blaze during the Waco Siege caused by USA SWAT Team, ETC. I hope you understand. Native Americans "earn large fortunes by exposing and humiliating the American government.... in a lawsuit .... by proving it to the press" has been on going for the past centuries without success to gain back their lands and their rights stipulated under the so many treaties they signed when they were slaughtered during the so many Native Indians-European-colonists wars. I hope you understand. All Chinese women are sterilized if they violate the China population policy. That is the law. I hope you understand what is law and order.

Regarding Mr. Pomfret's article, anyone that has lived in China (or Taiwan especially) for even a short amount of time can easily observe how superstitious the populace is. He is just trying to make a simple, non-threatening point. I don't know why this article is construed as anything but that.

Regarding the comments in general, you would think that with the recent earthquake, the Fifty Cent Party (五毛党) would give it a rest, but here they are once again talking nonsense trying to make it look like westerners are not sympathetic to the disaster.

@American Observer
Your comments are very insightful. It's interesting to see the FCP crowd (paid/amateur CCP hack commentators) wither so quickly when confronted with the truth. Yes, facing the truth hurts, but that is the only way to move ahead in the world.

@Katrina Observer
Its a great achievement for China to lift so many people out of abject poverty, but don't kid yourself. Without the western world's (including Japan and S.Korea) financial & technological investments, open markets, logistics, and leadership (and sadly Chinese IP theft), the majority of PRC people would still be living in the dark ages. Please open your eyes, its not a zero sum game. Good business means both parties are successful (win-win) and the world can evolve into a harmonious place. This is the PRC goal is it not? One world, One dream? Or is it war? (which, I too unfortunately think is where China is heading mainly over oil supplies). I see peaceful China making a move on the Russian Far East in the not too distant future. Perhaps this earthquake will have some bearing on that. Some commentators say these types of events do not cause political change, but once you add up the cost of reconstructing, Chinese FX reserves will be close to empty and something will have to change. It is too enormous especially when you add in the dams and nuclear research destruction.

Re:Earthquake victims and families, I can't say I pray for them because I am not religious, but I am very sorry to see so much pain and I wish the survivors good luck in trying to find some solutions to carrying on with life. I know it will be extremely difficult for them. btw: It is inspiring to see so many Taiwanese corporations offering help. I only wish the ROC and Japanese rescue teams were allowed in sooner, but politics got in the way. Lives were lost because of this sorry to say.

Chinese Observer says:

"....can't you just try , even just for one or two moments, to look at things from a non-American perspective?"

American Observer replies:

Why yes, we can. We can look at things from the perspective of the Chinese children who were crushed under the walls of schools which were built in substandard ways because your greedy contractors paid bribes to the officials of your Communist Party. We can look at things from the perspective of the thousands of children who died in this earthquake because people like you have worked so hard to stop democracy from coming to China. Can you look at things from that perspective?

If you cannot, I suggest you go to a fine article in Time magazine last week.

China's Heaviest Toll: Schoolchildren
Friday, May. 16, 2008
By Austin Ramzy/Beijing

I quote:

""It was built out of tofu," says Hu Yuefu, 44, of the school building that collapsed in the magnitude 7.9 quake and killed his 15-year-old daughter Huishan. He believes local government officials and the building contractors are responsible. As he speaks, a crowd gathers around to listen and offer their support. "I hope there is an investigation," Hu says. "Otherwise, there are a thousand parents who would beat them to death."

That anger is flowing in communities across the disaster zone. While the overall death toll has passed 21,500 and is expected to climb as high as 50,000, there is special tragedy — and perhaps a whiff of scandal — in the number of young people who died in collapsed schools. Communities like Juyuan have had an entire generation of young people wiped out. In the nearby city of Dujiangyan, more than 300 students were killed when the Xinjian Elementary School collapsed. Sixty miles away in the mountainside town of Hanwang, the scene repeated itself at the Dongqi Middle School, where an estimated 200 students died. Five children were killed when two schools even collapsed in Chongqing, the state-run Xinhua News Service reported. The city is more than 200 miles away from the quake's epicenter. "

Unquote. Further on the article says:

"Some parents in Sichuan argue that the problem goes beyond shortchanging schools. They allege that local officials are responsible for allowing unsafe buildings to go ahead. "The government and the construction companies collude with each other," says Hu, whose daughter's corpse was pulled out from the Juyuan Middle School two hours after it collapsed on Monday. "It's in their interest to build them poorly."

In China it is often at the local level, where officials have the most direct impact on citizen's lives, that corruption is most common and bears the most painful consequences. While that problem is widely recognized, the collapse of schools after the Sichuan quake has turned it into a major public issue. During a State Council press conference this week, a journalist from the state-run China Daily asked why so many schools were destroyed by the tremor, while government buildings seemed comparatively intact."

Unquote. You can read the entire article at http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1807137,00.html

'Chinese Observer,' you and 'Yunnan' can choose between doing things the selfish and the cowardly way, or you can choose to be true patriots and fight for the children of China. You and 'Yunnan' can mark the deaths of these thousands of Chinese children with quiet sorrow, if that makes you feel comfortable; but if you care about the lives and futures of the children of China, you should mark this tragedy with loud rage. You should be angry at the Communists who have acquired so much money by taking bribes to build death traps for the children of China, and you should be angry at the people who have created a dictatorship in China, so that ordinary Chinese cannot vote and choose a government which protects the people of China rather than exploiting them.

Chinese Observer says:

"The "Indian Sterilization" story was told in 2005 by a white American friend of mine."

American Observer replies:

Chinese Observer, let me explain some basic things about America that you do not know. The first is that America is huge. In America we have three hundred million people, coming from a vast range of races, religions, and cultural backgrounds. The second thing you should remember is that we are free -- we can think and say anything we like without being afraid of being crushed under tanks and or sent to the LaoGai. Thus, if you look hard enough you can find an American to repeat any story you want to hear. You will find Americans who believe that flying saucers land in Area 51, you will find Americans who believe that God created the world in seven days, and you will find somebody, somewhere, who believes the nonsense that you printed above. The fact that "The 'Indian Sterilization' story was told in 2005 by a white American friend of mine" does not prove that the story is true. For all we know, your 'White American Friend' might also believe that the world was created in seven days and that the CIA killed Kennedy. You should ask him! Urban legends are not urban legends simply because they are wrong; urban legends are urban legends because they are wrong and because lots of ordinary people believe them anyway.

Now there is a third aspect of American society that you should understand, because it is central to our society. As Adam Smith put it so well, in America 'private greed becomes public gain.' That is to say, experts and ordinary people can both earn large fortunes by exposing and humiliating the American government. If your Indian sterilization story was true, then the Indian who was sterilized could win millions of dollars in a lawsuit -- literally; and if your sterilization story was true, your 'White American Friend' could earn millions of dollars by proving it to the press -- literally; and the fact that your imaginary Indian victim and your 'White American Friend' have both left this money on the table shows that the story is nothing more than an urban legend. Whoever started your story, it was nothing more than a true story about China made into something both false and politically correct by replacing the word 'Tibetan' with 'Native American' and the word 'China' with the word 'America.' And, if you understood America at all, you would understand that immediately, without needing to have it explained to you.

On the other hand, it is clear that the Tibetans are telling the truth about the involuntary sterilization of Tibetan women. After all, the Tibetans will never earn money by suing the Chinese government, and in fact the Tibetans have to fear being raped and tortured and killed just for repeating what happened to them. Nonetheless, these brave Tibetan women still speak out; and none of the apologists for the regime, such as yourself or 'Yunnan', dare to deny what these Tibetan women are saying. It is impossible for a human being to lose an argument more clearly and more completely than you have lost this one.

Pomfret, American Observer and many others,

I have family and friends who just survied the earthquake and my brother is working right there as a volunteer.

If you really care to know about what is happening in China right now and what it means to the Chinese, watch CCTV or read this article
http://military.club.china.com//data/thread/1011/2015/31/42/6_1.html

Yes -- it is in Chinese, a language too old and too beautiful and too complicated for many of you. If an ordinary Chinese like me could spend years studying your language, reading your books, working with your people, and all the time respect your values, can't you just try , even just for one or two moments, to look at things from a non-American perspective?

Ugly American Observer, I respect your knowledge and you are right about many things. But I feel sorry for the Americans if people like you are the only access they have to understanding China and the rest of the world. To them, you are a poison.

No one pay me for defending my country against a bunch of China-haters. So I am going back to my work. And you stay and rot with your biting tongue.

American Observer:

The "Indian Sterilization" story was told in 2005 by a white American friend of mine. He's a veteran returning from Iraq, a farm owner, a father of five, a Christian and a patriot. We were classmates and I felt I was his very first Chinese friend. Pity you couldn't find it in your source of information. That only proves not everything in your history is on record.

You failed to understand the two-children policy for ethnic manorities in China is part of Chinese "affirmative action". I choose to conform to and support the birth control policy simply because that is the only way we could manage with the limited resources in this country.

After a year or so in China, many of my Amerian colleagues started to understand it is wise to enforce such a policy. Just imagine what it would be like if another five families lived in your whatever-size apartment or house.

I also want to show you some happy Tibetan faces. You probably don't read Chinese but at least you could see. This is a charity school a friend of mine (she is a Han) established in a Tibetan community in Qinghai Province. Please notice there are both Han and Tibetan volunteers teaching in that school. And I am proud to tell you I helped collect and send textbooks and stationeries to the kids.
http://tibetansoul.blog.sohu.com/entry/

And let me tell you and your fellow Americans, bragging about the Red Guards is as silly as believing the Ku Klux Klan still ride around in bed sheets.

To American Observer:
Your comments are really quite inappropriate. I suppose I could say the same thing to you as you said to other people, only slightly different. You have many facts, but no understanding of compassion or sadness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you haven't looked at any of the pictures or videos of the suffering caused by the earthquake. Once again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt that you felt any of the emotions those poor people in China if you can say all of these things. It feels like you are laughing at this tragedy. I may only be a teenager, but I feel that I have a better grasp than you of a person's emotions when they have lost everything. I ask you to please stop this useless debate if you are not going to express condolences or prayers. You are definitely biased, with your comments in saying that China is eager for war. Do you think America is really that much better? What about the war in Iraq? I know that America's official explanation is that it's for the sake of the Iraqis, but considering all of the civilian casualties, I'm not sure we're doing much good over there. Yes, I know that if America pulled out completely, it would be a bad situation, but I think that you shouldn't try to be so hypocritical. How many people have died in Tibet and how many people have died in Iraq? Like I said, keep such cold-hearted comments to yourself. None of us need words like that during this crisis.

One of our friends has been talking about involuntary sterilization by force or by deception. Here is a good article on the subject, from the web site for the Tibetan Women's Association.

I quote:

"Despite the fact that Tibet is a sparsely populated region, many women are forcibly sterilized or limited to one or two children in accordance with Chinese state-enforced population control. It is practically impossible for a woman to have more than two children as an additional child has no status and is unacknowledged and is unregistered by the Chinese state. In the Tibetan culture, motherhood and family is strongly valued. This type of oppression damages the women not only physically, but psychologically by taking away their ability to choose to have children. Moreover women who are forcibly sterilized have to pay for operations preformed against their will. The safety standards are practically non-existent, leaving many women with severe complications such as these dangerous operations. Furthermore, many women do not even know that they have been sterilized. Often a woman will enter a hospital for a totally unrelated ailment and leave not being able to bare children. Such circumstances make women reluctant to seek attention even in dire cases of illness."

Unquote

You can read the original article at http://www.tibetanwomen.org/press/2000/2000.11.25-stmnt-intl_day_eliminate_violence.html

Chinese Observer says:

"I agree about your "stolen land" theory. But isn't assimilation way better than "Trail of Tears"?

American Observer replies:

My friend, you need to read a lot more and you need to think a lot more. If you do, you will realize that the largest number of Native Americans were killed by epidemics, and the second largest number simply walked in from the forest and joined mainstream society; that is why the U.S. Census says that eighty percent of African-Americans are part Native American, and so are forty percent of White Americans. I myself am part Native-American, but I base no claims on that fact, simply because I share that distinction with a hundred million other Americans.

As for your contrast between 'assimilation' and 'the Trail Of Tears,' you should realize that the Trail of Tears was a recent event and has been well-documented, while the Chinese conquest of Guangdong and Fujien happened more than a thousand years ago, and the Chinese had no interest in recording the agony of their victims anyway. So, if there are few extant records of massacres in Guangdong or Fujien, that does not mean that the Chinese treated their victims better than the Chinese treated the Taiping or the White Lotus; it merely means that the Chinese did not bother to keep records and what records they made have not survived.

If you want to move closer to the present, you can find many fresh histories of how the Chinese brutalized the victims of the Chinese empire. I have read a number of books about recent Chinese history, including ' Hungry Ghosts: Mao's Secret Famine' by Jasper Becker, and 'China: Alive in the Bitter Sea' by Fox Butterfield and even 'Scarlet Memorial: Tales Of Cannibalism In Modern China' by Yi Zheng. Those books explained at length how the Chinese imposed famine on themselves and their empire during the Great Leap Forward, and those books explained at length how the Chinese and the victims of their empire had to eat their own children just to survive. I will tell you quite frankly that reading 'Hungry Ghosts' is an experience that will transform you, and if you have never read it, you are still ignorant of Chinese history, no matter how many kings and battles you can talk about. The Chinese regime rarely talks about the Great Leap Forward because the Great Leap mostly killed farmers, not members of the Chinese ruling class; but the Chinese regime likes talking about the Cultural Revolution because the Cultural Revolution killed a lot of members of the CCP as well. Would you like to talk about the things that the Red Guards from Beijing did to the people of Inner Mongolia? I think you could find records of that fairly easily.

Chinese Observer replies:

"Actually at one time in Missouri I heard a story about how some white doctors secretly sterilized Indian women during "medical examinations".

American Observer replies:

My friend, something as clear as that would be easy to prove, if it really happened. I just went to Google to learn more, and I found two kinds of articles. One, of course, was your own entry on this page, and the others were a list of articles about Tibetan, Uigher, and Chinese women being sterilized by force by the Chinese Communist Party. I suggest you go look up 'China' and 'forced sterilization' and see what you get.

Chinese Observer replies:

"Tell me if I am wrong about Tibet before 1950, like the average life expectancy remainded as low as 35; like the majority of the people were illiterate and superstitious enough to take the "living budda"'s poop as magic cure. "

American Observer replies:

Excuse me -- what was the life expectancy of the Chinese before China began trading with and learning from the West in the nineteenth century? Tell me, does that prove that the British were right to rule Hong Kong? Every empire in the world has learned how to build drains and spread vaccinations, and every empire in the world justifies its colonial rule by bragging about how it built drains and spread vaccinations. The British justified their rule of India that way, and the Russians justified their rule of Kazakhstan. Tell me, do you also think the British should rule India? Do you also think the Russians should rule Kazakhstan?

Katrina's American Meaning says:

"You are wasting your time patronizing me, American Observer."

American Observer replies:

Katrina, you are going to have to do better. Your first sortie was nothing more than a clever spoof, and your second foray onto the board was just dizzy gush; but now that you have been answered with a cascade of facts, you don't know what to do and you have taken refuge in whining. What are you going to say next -- that you were brought here on a slave ship? Really, I expected better from you.

American Observer says: No one expects the Chinese to leave Guangdong, Fujien, and Guilin, because the Chinese stole these regions so long ago that they are completely assimilated.

I agree about your "stolen land" theory. But isn't assimilation way better than "Trail of Tears"? I visited America and I talked to Native Americans. You think they're happy about your "manifest destiny"?! Actually at one time in Missouri I heard a story about how some white doctors secretly sterilized Indian women during "medical examinations". And you are calling the Chinese baby-eaters?

As to "Free Tibet", I wonder if you mean anything beyond "independence from China" -- such as freeing the serfs and slaves who accounted for 90% of the Tibetan population in Dalai's time. Tell me if I am wrong about Tibet before 1950, like the average life expectancy remainded as low as 35; like the majority of the people were illiterate and superstitious enough to take the "living budda"'s poop as magic cure. And you believe Dalai would have been a kind ruler had he not exiled? Yeah, I'm trying to imagine. With such a "free Tibet", you people will surely have one more convenient target to bash --- just how many human right issues could be raised by the hypocrites in Congress. Or, could Dalai end up another Sadam?

@ American Observer

You are wasting your time patronizing me, American Observer.

Katrina's American Meaning says:

"My China does not believe in Western everlasting superiority: it is confident it is now in the process of writing a new chapter of World History by overachieving and by soon surpassing the West."

American Observer replies:

Excuse me while I spew my coffee over the screen and fall to the floor laughing. Katrina, don't you realized that is the exact same thing that the Red Guards used to say? Do you even know who the Red Guards were?

Katrina's American Meaning says:

"In the past twenty years and vis-à-vis the West, my China has thus become an inspiration for the Rest of Humanity who have stopped being objects of world history and have become subjects."

American Observer replies:

Actually, that is also what the Red Guards used to say as well. I understand the Red Guards enough to despise them, but I will give credit where the credit is due; the Red Guards were able to inspire some people in other countries. The Red Guards inspired the genocidal Shining Path of Peru and the shocking Khymer Rouge of Cambodia. Modern Capitalist China, on the other hand, has inspired no one in the world. Oh, the Chinese have frightened the thinkers of South America by taking away their manufacturing jobs and the Chinese have driven the labor unions of Zambia to riot, but no one, anywhere in the world, has pointed to the People's Republic of China as a source of inspiration. If you can think of one famous thinker in the developing world who has found inspiration in capitalist China during the last quarter of a century, I challenge you to name him. This I want to hear!

Katrina's American Meaning says:

"My China is the nation that has given birth to an economic explosion the pace and scale of which remain to this day unprecedented in the history of mankind."

American Observer replies:

China 'gave birth?' Excuse me, Japan started 'giving birth' to the same thing in the middle of the nineteenth century, and the response of China was to spend a hundred years wallowing in the same mystical morass which you seem to admire, while the West pushed the Chinese around and the Japanese raped their women by the millions; and then, after America rescued China from the Japanese, the enlightened Chinese spent a quarter of a century eating their own babies and beating their mothers to death. Katrina, do you even know what the Great Leap Forward was?

Finally, the Chinese became exhausted from trying to find the future within their own heritage and the Chinese became exhausted with trying to build a unique society of their own with 'collectivism.' By the nineteen seventies China was like a drunk recovering from a hundred year binge of egotism. After Mao died the Chinese began wholesale to adopt Western capitalism and Western science and Western industry. And this has worked well; after all, the Pax America has protected China from getting into wars with its neighbors, and the Pax Americana has kept all of the sea lanes open; and America has created the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and now the World Trade Organization which allowed the Chinese to trade on the terms they like. China has only one resource -- a billion cheap workers -- a billion cheap workers who cannot form labor unions because the pinkertons of the CCP will throw their organizers in the same LaoGai where they threw Harry Wu and Wei Jingsheng. Luckily for China, America has created an international trading system where the Chinese have been allowed to undercut workers everywhere from Mexico to Madagascar without having to face the kind of tariffs and quotas and blockades which would have been imposed in any other era of human history.

Katrina, do you really mean that you don't know all of this? What have you been smoking?

Katrina says:

"I believe we need to learn how China thinks, what exactly are the ideas shaping the growth of this potent challenger to Western hegemony; and who are the people thinking them?"

American Observer says:

Oh, wow -- you ask us to go learn all this, but you do not offer a single idea or a name in all of this exuberant gush. Katrina, I would laugh if I were not so sad. If you want to understand Chinese political thinking, you should read Andrew Nathan's famous book, 'Chinese Democracy,' which spells it all out.

The more you look at it, Chinese political thinkers are divided into three camps. The first camp insist on the rule of the enlightened, just the way emperors and dictators always have, and just as emperors and dictators always have, the first camp consider themselves both enlightened enough to make the decisions by themselves and then to choose their successors to continue making the decisions. If you are an idiot, you will be inspired by the concept of the wise giving power to the wise; if you have even half a brain, you will recognize that everybody thinks that he himself is wise and as long as the 'wise' have the biggest guns they can send in their tanks and wash the pavement of Tiananmen Square with the blood of anyone who says that the rulers are not as wise as they think they are. The next camp is the camp of people who recognize that democracy is just as much a Western invention as the light bulb and the internal combustion motor; but, like the light bulb and the internal combustion motor, democracy will work as well in China as it has in Taiwan.

The third camp, unfortunately, is the largest. This is the camp which wants a 'tutelage' system of some sort or another. In this system, a ruling class of enlightened people would vote and campaign and make decisions among themselves, and then hand the decisions down to the unwashed masses, who would be expected to keep their lips zipped while they do what they are told. If you know anything about history, you will recognize that this is very similar to the ideas of Leon Trotsky, who wanted the ruling party to 'guide the masses firmly' while allowing democracy among the rulers themselves.

Katrina says:

"Chinese think-tankers debate about "how to manage the West's decline"! Wang Yiwei, from Fudan University, shares this worry, and asks, "How can we prevent the USA from declining too quickly?"

American Observer replies:

Jeepers! I guess we should be worried too, huh?

Seriously Katrina, what you say fits what I said before. In a nation of a billion you will always be able to find someone who will be doing or saying anything you can want to find. However, serious Chinese thinkers spend more time trying to figure out how China will deal with sex-selective abortion and the surplus of baby boys. Serious Chinese thinkers wonder how China can keep the Gray Wave from crushing their society, and serious Chinese thinkers try to figure out whether China can keep the rising price of oil and meat from causing more riots. After all, serious Chinese thinkers know that China has a lot of reason to be humble. China is the nation which crushes its children under the walls of schools that were not safely built and China is the nation which enslaves its children in brick kilns and China is the nation which builds dams so tall that they drown the homes of three million people; and serious Chinese thinkers recognize that these crimes are not imported from the West; instead, China has always treated its people exactly this way. If you doubt that, you might start by figuring out how the Great Wall was built and how the Grand Canal was dug, and then you might look at a million more instances from then to now. That is why Lu Xun said that 'Chinese history is four thousand years of cannibalism,' and that is why the Chinese consider Lu Xun to be their greatest modern writer. If you don't know that, Katrina, then you don't know China at all.

Look how late it is getting. Katrina, if any of the terms I have mentioned above is new to you, will you at least go to wikipedia or Britainnica.com and look them up before you spray more dizzy gush across the board? Please?

@ American Observer

My China has little to do with whatever so many people enjoy bashing here. My China is too busy to pay any attention to such a futile activity.

My China is a land of paradox, being first and foremost a young and extremely modern millenary country. My China is a proud, hard working, most creative people that never considered Western values as the best human values or as Universal Civilization, so that all that the rest of humanity had to do was to absorb them and live by them. My China would smile compassionately at Fukuyama’s suggestion that the world has come to “The End of History” with the so-called triumph of the West, of Western liberalism and of the universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government. My China is the nation that has given birth to an economic explosion the pace and scale of which remain to this day unprecedented in the history of mankind. My China does not believe in Western everlasting superiority: it is confident it is now in the process of writing a new chapter of World History by overachieving and by soon surpassing the West. In the past twenty years and vis-à-vis the West, my China has thus become an inspiration for the Rest of Humanity who have stopped being objects of world history and have become subjects.

I am not here to teach but to learn. Beyond all the futile bashing, the cheap, crude propaganda and so much wishful thinking, I believe we need to learn how China thinks, what exactly are the ideas shaping the growth of this potent challenger to Western hegemony; and who are the people thinking them? In my opinion, despite the global interest in the rise of China and the fact that China has a surprisingly lively intellectual class, no one is paying much attention to its ideas and who produces them. There are indeed lively debates occurring in China, which Western observers are barely aware of; for while Westerners "anguish" about how to manage China's rise, Chinese think-tankers debate about "how to manage the West's decline"! Wang Yiwei, from Fudan University, shares this worry, and asks, "How can we prevent the USA from declining too quickly?"

Can the Chinese think? I suggest our media replace the bashing by substantial presentations by, and discussions with, those who are behind China’s unprecedented successes. I suspect there is much there for all of us to learn… urgently

Given you are an adept of the “Tao Teh Ching”, I shall conclude on some key paradoxical questions I should like to see those outstanding thinkers answer, so as to better understand my China:

1. How does one walk westwards indefinitely, while never forgetting one is heading east?

2. How does one manage to turn major obstacles into their very opposite (with examples)?

3. How does one “conquer without striving” (give examples)?

4. How is it that “the weak overcomes the strong, and the soft overcomes the hard” (“This is something known by all, but practised by none.” – Lao Tzu)?

Katrina's American Meaning's says:

"hat is possibly why I consider wise the person who once stated that anyone who begins a sentence by “To the Chinese, however…” evidently does not know China and the Chinese people."

American Observer replies:

Oh, that is clever. I spent three years living in China, and I was probably less clever when I said "China has a billion people, and anything you can say about the Chinese will be true of some Chinese in some place; and if you say the complete opposite about the Chinese, that will also be true of some Chinese in some place." You yourself are a good example. You choose to believe that the Chinese do not study natural disasters for signs of the future, and that may be true of some Chinese, in some places; but if you really don't understand who the four faces on the Chinese hundred reminbi bill are, and you never heard a speech about the Tangshan earthquake or the Dragon Pavilion, then you are living in a China of your own choosing.

Let me give you an example. As the wise man said, "Travel rewards the scholar. If you would find the riches of India, you must bring the riches of India with you, and you will never understand a land if you don't learn something about it before you go there." When I went to China, I was very interested in history and politics, and I already knew the names of all of the Chinese dynasties and the identities of the foreign tribes who invaded China; and I had a good understanding of the ins and outs of the Communist regime. So, wherever I went, I met Chinese who were impressed with my knowledge, and those Chinese were eager to give me a lecture or an argument about politics. I was able to improve my knowledge of Chinese history and politics every day. For me China was a nation that was obsessed with surviving its brutal past and trying to understand if the future would be better.

I was always ready to learn something new. However, I simply did not get into any conversations about Feng Shui and the complex world of Chinese mysticism. For years I never really wondered why; I had heard the National Geographic documentary say that the ordinary Chinese was enveloped in a world of spirits and rituals, but I rarely saw these things myself, and when I did see the lantern festival or children putting up posters for the Chinese new year, the children looked more like American children celebrating Halloween than they looked like people involved in something sacred or powerful.

And then I met another American teacher, who was interested in Feng Shui. And this teacher told me "The Chinese are obsessed with Feng Shui. They can teach me about it for hours. But the Chinese don't care about politics!"

I told her that we lived in two different Chinas, and she agreed. The Chinese were willing to talk with me about history and politics because I showed them that I knew enough to give them an intelligent conversation. The Chinese never talked to me about Feng Shui because they realized that (back then) I had no idea why the statue of the horse must always be entering the door the statue of the horse must never be leaving the door; and (back then) I never understood why the cash register has to be on the left side of the counter. This teacher did know; and because she showed the Chinese that she was able to have an intelligent conversation about Feng Shui, the Chinese would spend hours talking to her about it.

Of course, I have learned more since then. When a Westerner makes a statue or a painting of a horse, the statue or the painting is always running out the door to great the visitor. The Chinese do it the opposite way. I have done my research, and I know that the horse is a symbol of success, so the statue or the painting of the horse must never be pointed out the door, because then success will run out the door as well. Instead, the statue or the painting of the horse must always be coming in the door, so that success will enter the lives of the inhabitants and not run away from them. By the same token, the Westerner always allows his statues of fish to leap like rainbows across the wall, but in China the fish is a symbol of prosperity, so the Chinese hangs his statues of fish so their faces are pointed straight up like the noses of rockets, ensuring that his prosperity will also rise.

Now I also understand the cash registers. I have read the Tao Te Ching, and I know that 'in times of peace the man of calling take his place always at the left hand of the throne.' Thus, the left is the place of wisdom, the place of the dragon; and the cash register must be put on the left so that the money will be conserved and spent wisely. If the cash register were place in front, it would block the Phoenix aspect of the storekeeper, and keep him from advancing successfully; and if the cash register were placed on the right it would take on the aspect of the tiger, strong but passionate and hard to control; and the money would be spent on fits of fury or passion. In short, most Chinese buildings and public places are built with Feng Shui in mind, but you would never know it unless you already had some training in the field.

I will also admit that some Chinese reject the world of Feng Shui completely; sometimes, because these Chinese 'reject superstition,' and at other times these Chinese think that worrying about Feng Shui will simply make them too afraid of the spiritual world which engulfs them.

Anyway, those are my Chinas -- the political China, which I came prepared to explore, and the mystical China, which I did not discover until I had already been in China for two years. What about you, "Katrina's American Meaning?" Can you teach us anything about Chinese history or culture or anything else? Or will you just give us satires on Cultural Relativism which sound like they came from National Public Radio? If you have anything of substance to offer, I am eager to hear it.

@American Observer

My