Comments (158)

Chinese officials sacked for quake corruption

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-06/09/content_8334868.htm

June 7 (Xinhua) -- The Chinese government and people have timely and effectively responded to a recent earthquake in China's southwestern Sichuan Province, Mozambican Prime Minister Luisa Dias Diogo stated here Saturday.

"We think that the Chinese government has done a lot to recover the situation. Visits of the prime minister, immediate reactions of the government and so on, that is the best way. Also important is internal solidarity. The first solidarity should start at home and the Chinese people are showing that," she told Xinhua reporters on the sidelines of the 18th Global Summit of Women held here from June 5-7.

The Chinese government is building houses for people so they can start their life again, she said, stating that housing is one of the most important issues now.

She expressed deep sorrow for the loss of so many people in the major earthquake and reiterated the friendship between the Mozambican and the Chinese peoples.

The Mozambican prime minister is attending the women summit, themed "Women and Asia: Driving the Global Economy" and attended by over 900 businesspersons, professionals and government officials.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-06/07/content_8325260.htm

Lord, Ronald, is there no article that you cannot distort to serve your prejudices? It may be your less than perfect command of English, but you consistently mis-characterize your, already thin, sources of "evidence". In fact, your posts and accompanying links show a jaw-dropping lack of perspective and understanding of what your are reading. Maybe you should cease directing other to "read and learn" and put some time into improving your analytical skills.

Goodbye, Ronald. Rant on.

Police break up protest by angry parents

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/03/asia/quake.php

Raqul:
Try to read this post. Please pay attention to the blogger called himself "Harry Haught"

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/pomfretschina/2008/06/our_first_fu_manchu_awardwinne.html

By describing Chinese (mainlanders) as a pack of rabid dogs, give you an idea how some Americans really think about China and Chinese people in particular especially after he had lived in Asia for 17 years and make numberous trip to China.
Does he have any friend(real) there. That is why I was alarmed about the western world look at China. I don't want to call dogs on the street just because I was born Chinese.
Try to read the blogger called himself "A Mirror of Arrogance". That is another side of view about the Tibetan incident.

Please read this post by a Time magazine columnist.
http://time-blog.com/china_blog/2008/06/the_us_getting_serious_about_c.html
Even he laugh at the notion that China is responsible for a cysber attack on US. Some of the posters has doubts about how advance Chinese technology really is. It does not stop the media especially CNN and certain political elite to repeat this. Dream on about free press.

To Ronald:
I don't admire any government because they are all run by googs and hypocrite. As for individual human being, I admire them all, Westerners or whatever even though there are mass murderers among us.

So after all that is said,
which Western country do you admire?

Raqul:
Read this story on New York Times today.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/world/americas/03venez.html?hp
Why is US so concerned about how Chavz runs his country ? How about the Pakistan government, or Saudi Arabia for that matter. Why is the media so involved in undermining Chavz ? Is this free press or conspiracy ? You will be the judge.

What is the point of debating US involvement in Latin American, when the whole country from media to both parties, were deeply involved in undermining Chavz ? I do not know how bad Chavz is. However, it is a criminal behavior to try to over-throw a legitimate government in other country. The so-called Chavz incident, is not ancient history either. That means your government has not changed at all from the old days. What happens to the claim that democracy can correct itself. Admit it. US is an empire, committed to dominate the world. All the rhetoric about human right and freedom of speech are nothing but political tools.

I knew the involvement of your civilized country in Latin American all along. Showing that video to you is to point out the actual behavior of so-called NED, giving large amount of money to over-throw a legitimate goverment in other country. Do you deny it? I also like to point out that it was not my own opinion, that NED is a CIA front, doing dirty work for CIA.

I believe Ronald is a 9th grader at Xian middle school #9 and his parents have left him alone with a case of Jolt cola and unlimited internet time.

Ronald that looks like a good video. And the history of US intervention in Latin America is painful, and has been debated and lamented and continues to be discussed openly and energetically, as it should.

How is it that this is all new to you? You who grew up in the West...

Sigh...Ronald finds a comment by an obscure writer with an obvious axe to grind and thinks he's discovered gold. Ronald, my friend, you need to go back to school, so that you can learn to make a reasoned argument.

Okay, not for Ronald, because that would be wasted effort, but for general clarification: NED is funded by the US Congress. It funds civil society groups all around the world to try to support more representative governance. The organization has never tried to hide that. Similarly, the U.S. State Department, USAID, etc., perform similar functions, at least in part. Are they all the CIA?

Conspiracy theories of the "the CIA controls the world, man!" variety seem particularly attractive to numbskulls, for some reason. Not sure why.

Excerpt:
It could become a time-game to "Sinicize" Tibet fully. This, in turn, would set apart Chinese and exiled Tibetans in more than one way. The Tibetans in China could be "culturally killed" or at least "culturally maimed".

Main article at Asia Times
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JD11Ad01.html

Since Ronald uses Asia Times to back his NED argument, then it's also fair to use Asia Times to reinforce the Sinicization argument.

Raqul:
NED provided funding for overthrowing Chavz.
If NED is not the front of CIA, I do not know what it is. You are so naive.

To To Ronald:
I admire the lofty idea of democracy but I just hate what was shown on that video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3739500579629840148&hl=en-GB

Ronald, u said "I was born and raised in the West and have travelled to China only once"

Your posts show that not only you do not understand Western perspective, you have shown yourself to be anti-West as well. You have constantly attacked any foreign idea with stupid reasons.

You have exposed youself as a CCP stooge.

Having watch that video, finally, I realize why Americans like JED want everybody to be democratic in a hurry so that they can manipulate and control other countries. Raqul, please watch it and repend.

The West like US are fake champions of democracy, behind the rhetorics it's all about power and money. Watch this and you will agree. That is why the media can be so biased. Don't be fooled.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3739500579629840148&hl=en-GB

Despite challenges, the Chinese has shown the world their compassion and their ability to do good. Maybe the rise of modern China can help the West better understand their own problems and lead to better efforts to address real issues such as climate change, water crisis, food crisis, and poverty. These should be everyone's priorities instead of meaningless arguments on why my ideology is better than yours.

Try to explain it as much as you will, all you need to do is read George Orwell's 1984. He saw it coming decades ago and even though his timing was a bit off, he explains to you what is behind the scenes. You merely have to pay attention and put the pieces together. Knowledge is not something that is given to you without effort, you must seek it, gather evidence, analyse the evidence, then let your mind work on it to give you knowledge.

When you look at what the CCP is doing in Tibet, it is exactly what Orwell describes in his book. They are trying to twist the childrens minds, so in the future, it will foment dischord between them, some will be extremists against religious beliefs... beliefs in general that aren't part of the regime's dogma. The regime strives for total control of the population and fear the independence and individuality of buddhism. The pacificim and respect for others also goes against all their plans because it is almost imposible to send pacifists to war, the regime is ready to make enemies of anyone who stands in their way of economic dominance, subjugation of the masses, and control of all science and industry.
Such is the way of the machines... totalitarianism, regarless of the cost in lives and happiness; to it, we are merely tools, more machines. This must be reversed soon, and from within. Not by prodding or pushing from outside. We must stop partaking in the criminal enterprise of the CCP on it's people. Employ the tools or cooperation and growth rather than suspicion and stagnation. The CCPs fear of loosing control, makes it into the sort of tyrant that people wish to overthrow.

The word "Sinicization" or " modernization" is very misleading. The question is "Industrializtion" or "Feudalization". Which society do you want to live in. It does not matter whether you are European or American. Changes in society is inevitable. Globalization is another thing that has bigger impact on a culture. Hollywood, Coca-Cola and MacDonald represent consumerism and an efficient way to distribute service. They would have bigger impact on Tibetan culture than Chinese. Cultural genocide is a catch word that is very damaging to the development of Tibetan economy and development of the society from agriculture-based to the next level. Only a stupid monk would use word like that.

It could become a time-game to "Sinicize" Tibet fully. This, in turn, would set apart Chinese and exiled Tibetans in more than one way. The Tibetans in China could be "culturally killed" or at least "culturally maimed".

In the past 60 years, Chinese rulers have committed a "cultural genocide" on their own culture: they saw it as a necessary measure in the process of modernization and becoming an advanced nation.

Chinese can feel that they saved more of the Tibetan culture than they did of their own culture, and this could be the general feeling in the future. After all, China was a historical melting pot that managed to digest the Manchurian Qing, the Mongolic Yuan and the Turkic Tang, so why not the Tibetans?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JD11Ad01.html

Raqul:

NED is preceived as a front of CIA all across Asia. It is not my own opinion. Look at the media website from India

Here is the link to show where I got this information from.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JE10Df01.html

Asia Times is a subsidiary of Times Magazine published in Australia.

@ StoptheAtrocitiesinTibet:

thank you for posting here this report, it is very interesting and I recognized the sites of Lhasa where I have been living for a while. What a painful picture, Tibetans are not allowed to do the kora around the Jokhang. Police in plain clothes where always patrolling the Bargkhor but now even more Chinese angry faces are to be seen inside the overpolluted Lhasa.

"Why do some commentators here dislike the CCP? Because the government maintains itself by sustained and institutionalized falsehood."--from Masters of Doublespeak

Absolutely true! There is so much evidence of this.

Here's a letter from a Lhasa resident who wishes to remain anonymous; it spells it out the situation in Lhasa more clearly, when you compare this to the news China puts out about Tibet. This was written around the end of April:

Yesterday it was quite hot outside and the military that were guarding
one of the petrol stations was protected by a big umbrella from the
intense sunrays. Today it's the opposite; cold, cloudy and even quick
snowfalls as storm fronts hover on the mountains and sometimes close
in on the valley. Like the weather here in Lhasa the rules are
changing too. One day you can go nearly everywhere, the next, military
checkpoints won't let you pass. At the beginning of last week it
seemed life was getting back to normal. Guards at the checkpoints
relaxed and they seemed not as serious anymore, and overall, there was
less military on the streets. But then suddenly heavy military
presence was back. A few days ago, in the evening, I walked up Beijing
Road. As I did, many military trucks passed me and there were patrols
everywhere, only a few cars were to be seen driving around and the
streets were near empty of civilian people. The atmosphere was tense
and made the young, normally childish looking military, suddenly look
scary.

It is difficult to describe Lhasa these days, because you can only see
a fraction of what is really going on. If you quickly glance at the
city it may seem normal except for the old Tibetan centre, east of the
Potala Palace. In the centre, military has occupied every intersection
and stand on every side street, diligently checking your identity
card. Even the tiniest of alleyways have at least four military
personnel, of whom at least one has a bayonet and all of them a
shield, a bat and a helmet. The bigger intersections have more
military and people often have to line up in order to get checked.
Ethnic Chinese can pass these checkpoints much easier than local
Tibetans. Tibetans living at Dromsikhang and the Barkhor need a
special, police issued paper in order to be allowed to go in and out
the immediate area surrounding their homes.

The square in front of the holiest Tibetan Temple, the Jokhang,
normally a sea of people, prostrating, circumambulating and
socialising, is now completely empty. In front of the square two
military in blue uniforms strictly ensure nobody walks on the square.
As back up, in case they miss a person, military in green suddenly
appear out of no where to apprehend and push back person's entering
these normally public areas. The round pedestrian street circling the
Jokhang is empty too. Only people living in this area are allowed to
pass, forbidden to do religious Koras around the Jokhang, and instead
on the normally bustling retail and religious lanes you can only find
small children playing football and other games, trying to get on with
life, behind the military guards on these silent streets.

On Beijing Road and Sera Road the government has initiated road works.
Sections of road are being dug up and replaced where cars were burnt
during the March 14 protests leaving black tarmac. Sidewalks on
Beijing Road are being repaved as well after protesters used the
pavement stones to throw and break shop windows. As you walk through
Lhasa, you can still see many burnt or damaged shops. On Beijing Road
alone, there are around 16 shops or shopping complexes burnt out, one
of them being the Bank of China and one a jewellery store.

Not only are roads and shops getting rebuilt, but also some old,
traditional Tibetan houses.

If you look complacently around town you may think there is not a
heavy military presence anymore. However, if you look in every hotel
and building courtyard and in windows, you see these areas covered in
military; trucks, tents and more often the military themselves
exercising. Wherever there is space, you find military. They are
hidden in any empty building, behind buildings and even in the
hospital courtyard of Lhasa City Peoples Hospital.

Walking the streets of Lhasa, seeing big tea houses unusually empty
and many shops still closed, it makes you aware of how scared people
are these days. Very few people stop on the street when they meet
friends, because every gathering of people is suspicious. A lot of
people still stay at home because they are scared they will get
arrested for no reason if they go out.

When you finally find someone not too scared to talk to you, you hear
consistent, dramatic, disturbing and daunting stories that give you
nightmares. But since they don't have proof of what happened, it is
difficult to inform the media. From the 14th of March 2008, there has
been a heavy military presence in addition to the original security
cameras which all monitor the city so people were too scared to take
photographs of the tanks in front of the Jokhang Temple and elsewhere
in town. And since all the dead bodies got immediately carried away by
the military or taken from peoples home during nightly military raids,
nobody can prove their brother, relative or friend died, all they can
confirm is that this person disappeared. Only rumours about the death
toll and the arrested people are anxiously passed from person to
person.

Yesterday I talked to a Tibetan man who was speaking for himself and
his friends who want the world to know what is going on here. He asked
me if I can pass all the information he has on to foreign media, so
people here get help and don't have to be so scared anymore.

By talking to me he risks being arrested and being tortured in prison,
but he seems desperate enough to not care about that. In order to
protect him, his family and friends and also myself, I don't want to
tell more details about the place we met, his age or job. But that is
what he told me:

"On March 14th in the afternoon we heard that there were
demonstrations going on in front of Ramoche Temple. Later we saw four
people dragging a person who was shot dead in front of the Jokhang and
that was when we became really scared. Normally the government should
use gas or water against protesters, but here they shoot them. So we
went home as fast as possible.

In the evening my wife went to pick up our child from school around
6p.m. At that time the military was already on Jiangsu Road were the
school was. The military was shooting at the locals who went to pick
up their children. One woman got shot in her leg and one man was hit
in the head or neck and he died. Later his brother wanted to get his
corpse from the hospital, but the hospital didn't want to give it out.
Finally the brother got so desperate that he threatened to burn
himself and the hospital if they didn't give his dead brother to his
family. The hospital gave him his brother's body, but just a few hours
after they came home the military came and took the dead body away.

After March 14th whenever somebody died, you had to get three
different papers in order to be allowed to bring the dead body to the
sky burial place. If you didn't have these papers you got pushed back
inside your house with the dead body by the army; a very bad omen in
Tibetan culture. These three papers one needed were from the local
police, the hospital and a lawyer. The reason for this was that with
this rule the government made sure that everybody who didn't die under
normal circumstances was found and taken away from the family, so
nobody can make pictures and show them to friends or journalists
outside Tibet. The problem for the people was that all the offices
were closed during these days and therefore nobody could bring their
dead family members to the sky burial place on the days they should
have according to Tibetan astrology.

On March 14, 15 and 16 military came around midnight to check the
homes in our area for pictures of the Dalai Lama, and took everybody
with them who didn't have an identity card. They also had with them
pictures of people who were in the demonstrations and they compared
them with our faces. About 50 military men with guns came to our home
and searched everything. We stayed at home for three days, only going
out to go to the toilet and we only had Tsampa to eat, and people
whose home ran out of gas even couldn't boil water. The gate to our
house complex was closed and there were army posted in front of it. If
you went out, you got beaten up quite badly by them. After three days
everybody who worked for the government got a phone call and had to go
back to work. Without this working permit we were still not allowed to
go out. I know at least seven people who got arrested and one who got
shot.

When the foreign journalists were in Lhasa, I think it was from 27th
to 29th of March, the military suddenly disappeared from the streets.
Instead of wearing their military uniform they changed into traffic
police, gatekeeper uniforms or civil dress and they were hiding inside
buildings and behind corners where the journalists couldn't see them.
We were suddenly allowed to go everywhere; there were no checkpoints
during these days. When the journalists were allowed to walk around by
themselves, officials in normal clothes or traditional dress followed
them, answered their questions and made pictures of individuals who
talked to the press. We wanted to tell the press what is going on here
in reality, behind this show that was made up for them, but we didn't
have any chance to get close to them without being punished for that
later. When we finally heard that the Jokhang monks told them the
truth we were very happy.

The pilgrims inside the Jokhang temple were all elderly officials who
were forced to go there for pilgrimage on this day. Normally these
people are not allowed to engage in any religious activities, but on
this day they had to go. And lot of the other officials were given
leave from their office and were told to go to the Barkhor and the
Potala, if possible with their families, so it looks like there is lot
of freedom in Lhasa.

After the journalists left the military came back into public
immediately and we heard that the Jokhang monks got arrested for their
statements in front of the media and officials two days later.

Between 17th and 20th of April most of the monks were taken away from
Sera to an unknown place. Sera Monastery normally has over 300 monks
but now there is only a handful left who care for the chapels. Around
midnight about fifteen to twenty military trucks came and detained the
monks. We have this information from inside the monastery and also
from an abutting owner. But we don't know what is happening in Drepung
and Ganden, two of the biggest monastic centres around Lhasa, but we
have heard they have been arrested and taken out of Lhasa.

>From the monasteries around Lhasa a lot of monks and nuns got taken
away too and the ones who are still at their monastery are under house
arrest. We think the government is scared that when the Olympic flame
is in Lhasa there will be new protests by the monks and nuns, that's
why they detain them. They took all of them, no matter if they
protested on March 10th and the following days or not, only chapel
keepers, drivers and a few other monastery workers are allowed to stay
in the monasteries.

Lately there are only a few monks to be seen on the streets. It is
dangerous for them, because on the Tibetan TV channel they said that
for every suspicious person you report to the police you will get
RMB20000. In reality you only get about RMB2000 but still people call
when they see monk or nuns.

Since last week all Tibetans who are not from Lhasa have to go back to
their homeland, except students and teachers studying at government
schools. The police come to your home and send you out of Lhasa if you
are not from here. When the Olympic Torch is in Lhasa only local
people and Chinese are allowed to be here. They did that few years ago
too during the 50 year peaceful liberation celebration.

There is a big problem in jail now. There is not enough food, not
enough water and not enough blankets. The prisoners have to sleep on
the ground and sometimes they only get one cup of water a day and
nothing else. This way they get health problems, their bodies get
really weak and they die, either in prison or after they get released.
The prisoners get beaten up very badly. They especially beat the
kidney, liver and gall region so prisoners get internal injuries and
slowly die. We know this from three friends who just got released from
prison.

We are so worried about our friends and family members who are in
prison. We need to help them, but we don't know what to do. That's why
we have to tell the foreigners so the world will get to know and help
us.

It is still very tight here in Lhasa. Without ID cards you cannot go
out and if you live at Dromsikhang or Barkhor you need a special
paper. Wherever there is a gathering or argument people get arrested.

At the schools and in the offices people have to write stories about
the 14th of March and they have to speak ill of His Holiness the Dalai
Lama. When they write about the Dalai Lama they are only allowed to
write Dalai, otherwise they have to write it again. My child already
had to write such stories three times.

We are scared and worried about the prisoners. After the
demonstrations, I saw some military vehicles like they use in the Iraq
war, the same vehicles I saw in the news about Iraq [Tanks] but they
were in our city. I thought these vehicles are only allowed in war
between two countries. On the Tibetan TV News one presenter said that
the military did a very good job since this was their first experience
with something like war and a good opportunity for them to practise
how to shoot and how to kill people.

Now they already started the preparations for the Olympic Flame to
come here. They are putting up decorations on the Potala and Jokhang
Square [big Olympic Rings were set up in front of Jokhang and removed
again yesterday evening]".

What this man told me, I have also heard from other people without
connections to him.

I have no doubt the Chinese government will forbid foreign tourists
from visiting here for the next few months. Tibetans want a chance to
tell their side of the story; they try to tell you what happened to
them. They know they need help from outside and therefore I believe,
by preventing tourism, the government has a way of controlling,
censoring and suppressing the situation here.

What has happened and continues to happen in Lhasa is extremely sad
and scary. Never before have I heard monks talking about methods of
torture used in local prisons and different gun types that were used
by military during this year's demonstrations in Lhasa. And never
before have I seen Tibetan people so desperate and angry that they do
things they know they will die for or be put in prison for a long
time.

With the up and coming Labour Day Celebration and Torch Relay in May
anxiety has increased in Lhasa and fear of citywide house arrest has
resulted in the stockpiling of food.

Every day you see people arguing with army at checkpoints. A father
and daughter wanted to pass a checkpoint however the military
personnel told the man he was permitted but his daughter, who is not
old enough to have an identity card, was refused access due to not
having one.

But even in this difficult time you still see brave and good actions.
Yesterday I saw a little boy, around one or two years old; that I
believed displayed a good example of Tibetan spirit. The baby looked
as if he had just learnt how to walk and was out with his grandmother
and her little dog. They were standing in front of the Jokhang Square
where military in blue ensures nobody crosses the square. The baby
walked up the three steps to the square and started to make
prostrations towards the Jokhang while his grandmother also prayed but
her frail body prevented her from prostrating as well. When the boy
finished he looked at the guards, then at his grandmother, and then
started to walk closer to the temple. The guards looked at the baby,
not knowing what to do. After about ten meters the baby boy stopped
and prostrated again, then turned around, walked back to one of the
guards and took his hand to say goodbye. Seeing this reminded me that
all Tibetan people want is religious freedom and the right to preserve
their culture.

They are tired of writing papers against the Dalai Lama, of patriotic
re-education and all the rules and regulations that make their life so
difficult.

"There are some political idea that might work for other country"

The totalitarian Qing dynasty lasted more than two centuries.

The commoners were expendable labor, but it did'nt mean that this "political idea" works.

Do remember that communism is a foreign idea.

Ronald,

Since we are apparently the only two here, let me try to make my point clearly. Below, I have posted a representative excerpt from one of your earlier posts. You are certainly free to make the outlandish claims that you do; I am equally free to point out that you seem incapable of making a coherent argument without saying thing that are demagogic, totally unsupported, and just plain stupid.

"Now, the Taiwanese has a new government. Reapproachment between the two sides, is picking up steam. I do not know how the military industrial complex in the US would spin this to justify the notion that China will invade Taiwan. By the way, as soon as the new government in Taiwan is in place, hords of Senators from the US decended on Taiwan urging them to buy military hardwares from them at a ridiculously inflated price. It seems that the only thing they care is selling arms to Taiwan instead of protecting the democracy there. NED is preceived as a front of CIA all across Asia. It is not my own opinion. Look at the media website from India. By the way, quoting third party report i.e. Swiss TV video clip, is more reliable than using rhetoric from pentagon as a proof."

Ronald, what gets through my head is that you use exaggeration and distortion to try to make your point. I hope you can get this through your head. But I'm not optimistic.

Raqul:
You are still missing my point. I am trying to present some other aspect of the situation that counters conventional wisdom - democracy is the only worthwhile political system. Chinese should be inspired by it notwithstanding the short-coming showing up in US. Democracy is a lofty idea that has never been achieved by any country. Chinese has their own lofty idea inspired by years of confusicus teaching, that has never been achieved either. I am sure Chinese police could be as brutal as animal at times. However, there is also a human side of them as well. Police in the West is not perfect either. Please, don't take it the wrong way that I am trying glorify the Chinese system. I do not have enough knowledge and experience to do that. I just try to present a counter point here so that independent thinkers can think outside the box that democracy is the only thing that matters. There are some political idea that might work for other country. I hope that you can get this throught your head.

Spin your half-baked distortions, Ronald. No doubt, US cops get out of control at times and do horrible things -- again, no one is an angel here.

But your characterization of mainland Confucion "fatherly" government is laughable: what about all those FalunGong dissidents who are killed in detention?

Personally, in Chengdu in 1996, I saw four police beating the hell out of a homeless man with bamboo staves b/c he wanted to bathe in a public fountain. The beating went on for at least 30 minutes til his body was covered with welts. No one dared intervene.

Abuse of power occurs in all societies, to varying degrees. Your distortions, I can only guess, are willful.

Chinese thinking vs Western thinking
In the mind of Chinese after immersing in confucius idea for 4000 years, political leader is supposed to be a fatherly figure, a person with a firm hand and a kind heart. That is why Preimer Wen is called Grandpa Wen. In the mind of westerners, government especially leaders, should be put on a lash otherwise they will abuse their power and become a dictator.
My personal experience in China:
I was in China for a visit in 1993. I ran into an argument between a uniform policman and an old lady. The old lady kept yelling at the police and the police kept stepping back and finally walked away. The old lady turned around and started going through garbage for recyclable.

Event happened in US on TV news:
A driver was chased by police cars through traffic light. The driver jumped out and started to run. Four policemen converged on him and started throwing plunges at him at a very busy spot of the city while he was pinned down on the floor. His crime was resisting arrest. In US, the laws says if a policeman try to arrest you, you are not allowed to resist or make forceful body contact against the policeman. If you do, the policeman is allowed to use forceful means to subdue you. If you are a foreigner visiting and a policeman approach you for questioning, don't run. If you do not speak English, ask for a lawyer. That is USA. The land of the free. A similiar incident happened to a Chinese business woman shopping for her retail stores in China. She took a side tour to Niagara Falls. She walked to look at the guard house at the border, turned around and tried to walk away. The border guard came out of the guard house and chased after her. She was then pinned down on the floor, pepper-sprayed and plunges thrown at her until her face swelled so badly that her eyes was shut. She was arrested and later released with no charges. Her mistake was trying to run away while the border guard told her to stop. That happened before 9/11. Her swelled face was all over the Asia.
Different culture and different event.

To Hamilton:
About dis-satisfaction of government:
According to one poll conducted by Western Pollster in China couple of years ago, Beijing government has 83% approval rating. In another report, it said the middle class in the urban area was so happy with current situation that they are not in a hurry to push for political change. One Time correspondent wrote a story about his experience being an English Teacher in China. His conclusion was that the majority (99%)of his student did not care about politic at all. Even now, his students living inside and outside of China, still does not care about politics. Westerners are brought up with the notion that political involvement is part of civil duty. Most people outside do not share their view. Political change comes from the top in China and not from the bottom. Revolution in China came only when economic disaster hits. Don't hold your breathe waiting for middle class pushing for democratic change especially after the riot in Tibet.

Why do some commentators here dislike the CCP? Because the government maintains itself by sustained and institutionalized falsehood. Here is a recent white paper published in People's Daily on the subject of "China's socialist political democracy". We find gems like, China is "a democracy guaranteed by the people's democratic dictatorship". Doubleplus good that!

The full treatise is worth reading for its word-twisting madness. Here's an excerpt:

China's socialist political democracy shows Chinese characteristics: white paper

China's socialist political democracy shows distinctive Chinese characteristics, says a white paper on Building of Political Democracy in China, issued by the Information Office of the State Council on Wednesday.

The white paper says,in building socialist political democracy, China has always adhered to the basic principle that the Marxist theory of democracy be combined with the reality of China, borrowed from the useful achievements of the political civilization of mankind, including Western democracy, and assimilated the democratic elements of China's traditional culture and institutional civilization.

The white paper says China's democracy is a people's democracy under the leadership of the CPC, a democracy in which the overwhelming majority of the people act as masters of state affairs and a democracy with democratic centralism as the basic organizational principle and mode of operation.

The white paper says China's democracy is a people's democracy under the leadership of the CPC. The democratic political system in China was established by the Chinese people led by the CPC. The development and improvement of this system are also carried out under the CPC's leadership, which is a fundamental guarantee for the Chinese people to be masters in managing the affairs of their own country.

[etc.]
source: http://english.people.com.cn/200510/19/eng20051019_215257.html

Tibet enjoyed its freedom before it was "liberated" to become a Chinese province.

uhh...Go Tibet, you crazy.

Tibet was a free country before it was "liberated" to become a Chinese province.

"China has been demonized. Senators, the alleged China experts writers and military expert came on to declare China as evil and threat to world peace."

Did they really declare China "evil", Ronald, and a "threat to world peace"?

Again, you distort, exaggerate and malign. I don't think you even realize it.

I did not say you called China evil. I do not think you have influence that I care about. However, if you turn on CNN, progams after programs, days after days, China has been demonized. Senators, the alleged China experts writers and military expert came on to declare China as evil and threat to world peace. Right now, I do not watch CNN anymore except Larry King. It is very upsetting.

Who said China is evil? That is not the point of my responses. My point is that your statements are a string of serial distortions and exaggerations. Your justification for your outlandish claims seems to be, "I don't create the lies and exaggeration, I just repeat it."
You share more with Sharon Stone than you might realize.

Raqul:
I never said I advocate the approach of Chinese government to solve internal problems. I just try to point out to you that so-called democracy is not the answer for everything. The conception that China is source of all evil, is very dangerous. That can lead to unnecessary war. The concept that Dalai Lama is a peaceful monk, is another illusion that you guys should clarify within yourself. I have a very selfish reason for doing that, my own safety. Being living in the West all my life, I have witnessed personally the damage done to innocent people because of similar rhetoric. That is why I keep saying their government need improvement, so as the US government who is so inclined to use military might to solve every problem in the world.
Now, the Taiwanese has a new government. Reapproachment between the two sides, is picking up steam. I do not know how the military industrial complex in the US would spin this to justify the notion that China will invade Taiwan. By the way, as soon as the new government in Taiwan is in place, hords of Senators from the US decended on Taiwan urging them to buy military hardwares from them at a ridiculously inflated price. It seems that the only thing they care is selling arms to Taiwan instead of protecting the democracy there. NED is preceived as a front of CIA all across Asia. It is not my own opinion. Look at the media website from India. By the way, quoting third party report i.e. Swiss TV video clip, is more reliable than using rhetoric from pentagon as a proof. Don't you think. I don't think I can change your mind on anything we talk about here. However, I express my view and hopefully some curious people will start to realize there are two sides of every coin. Every decison people makes, carries consequences. Tone down the rhetoric and be less like Sharon Stone.

To Hamilton:
I just did some research on the history of China between 1949-1976. It seems to me from the outset of the establishment of PRC, people like Deng, will like to reform Chinese economy. Korean war put a stop to that. Mao embarked on Great Lap forward to jump start the country. He failed and Deng came back to take charge. Mao fought back with cultural revolution. It failed. Deng came back to stablize the country. Mao fought back. Deng was in detention again until Mao died. The real revolution then started. Am I correct so far. Saying that everything will remain the same without change in political structure, is oblivious of what had happened in China for the last 20 years. It is like saying the Iraqi war will happen anyway even if Democrates was in the White House. People in the media, has been saying for the last 20 years, Russian with sock-and-awe approach to political reform will succeed and China will fail because they have democracy. Looking back at it right now, should vandicate the Chinese government. Their approach of go-slow to everything from political reform to currency reform, is a better one in eyes of many Chinese even thought you guys don't agree with them. Different stroke for different folks. Just don't domonize other government and people because they do not agree with you. That goes with Pomfret who blame the genocide of Danfur on the Chinese Goverment. It is getting too dangerous here.

Don't worry about Ronald. He posts on other blogs. He is a Ministry of State Security paid blogger

And please spare us from any more of your "I found it on the Internet, so it must be true" style sourcing.

Ronald,

Democratic institutions are indeed fragile, and sometimes fail. But they have an in-built correction mechanism, in that leaders who mess up can be changed, institutions that falter (like the press in the lead up to the Iraq war) are subject to open and rigorous critique. Authoritarianism lacks those mechanisms.

You prefer the jackboot as the answer to all problems, apparently. You are welcome to your vision. However, the exaggerations and outright falsehoods that litter your tirades (e.g., NED as the front for the CIA, etc.) betray the crude level of your thought.

To Hamilton:
In contrast to what you think. I was born and raised in the West and have travelled to China only once in my life-time as a tourist in 1993. I have not said anything about the modern life in China and only cited media clip as my argument. That should give you a hint that I have very little knowledge about what is going on in China. My in-depth knowledge about the West, should give you a hint that I am more westernized than you think. My disillusion came when I witnessed the bias presented in the West from the Media to the government, saying that China is the biggest threat to world peace. Now, Chinese people and Chinese culture is under attack. I am worried about my own safety living in the West, if this is not confronted head on. The spill-over effect could be anti-Chinese riot. I say it again and again. Every government need improvement. Don't think western democracy as the only thing that matters and non-democratic societies are evil and should be confronted head on. I am not even a Chinese citizen. I just happen to be born Chinese. Is that a curse or blessing. I am wondering out loud?
As my travelling experience: I have been to Western Europe twice, Vietnam, Argentina and China only once. How about your travelling experience ?
To: Raqul:
Democratic institutions like independent judicial system, separate legislative branch, free press and balance of power, do not guarantee anything.
You guys have this institutions for 200 years now. It did not stop slavery, genocide against native Indian, and invasion of other countries for profit. It took the threat of communism for you to accept labor union in 50s. Civil right movement and embarassment in front of the world forced you to end racial discrimination against racial minority. Anti-jewish sentiment was not invented by the Nazi, it existed in the West long before Hilter came to power. Before world war II, Germany did have all the precious institutions that was steam-rollered by Hilter throught intimidation and violence. Just look at how GW and his clan steam-rollered your precious institutions into submission before the Iraqi war. Your precious free press just repeat the same thing GW told them. What the use of free press if they don't think independently. Your so-called democratic institutions are very fragile. The problem is you don't want to admit it.
Western so-called assymetric media warfare against China:
There was conference in Seattle in 2007 organized by CIA for inter-national Tibet groups. Major German political parties was in that conference. Their main topic was how to harass China during the Olympic year. NED, the front for CIA covert activities, is now funding more than 20 Tibetan groups in the US alone. Soros is one of the biggest contributor to the Tibetan cause. Watching the media coverage after the riot, one must wonder that assymetric media warfare is really true. Nobody can be unbiased because we are human being. Saying that only Chinese media is biased and western media is not, is wrong.

Another point I would like to make:
Right after the earth quake, there is another leak in the media citing unidentified government official about Chinese stealing information from Commerce officials while they were in China. This is an old story. Why repeat it right now. Knowing how GW used media for propaganda for his war in Iraq, I just wonder whether this is a not-so-subtle way to remind the public China is still the biggest threat to the US. If western media are willing participants in this kind of propganda, then Western so-called assymetric media warfare against China does exist. CNN has been the front of all media attacking China because they do not have much business in that country. You don't hear that kind of rhetoric from Fox news who is famous for their conservative view on politics. Why ? The boss of Fox news invests very heavily in China. He even married a former female executive of Chinese TV network. His wife is running his Chinese division and happens to be younger than his children. So much as for independent media. One old saying says it all. "Freedom of speech and freedom of the press belongs to people who owns it."

Ronald,
Indeed, our viewpoints are shaped and limited by our experiences. I hope you’ll have the opportunities to travel around. In the meantime, try to find out what happened in China between 1956 and 1976, when the government structure is essentially the same as today’s. Unless you are one of the beneficiaries, you can’t be happy with the current rampant corruption either, right?

Raoul,
Thanks for the thoughtful postings. I was fortunate to have a job that let me roam all corners of the world. One thing for certain: most of the people in the world care less about ideology. They are just like us. They just want a better life. After living for years in Bhrain, Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Riyadh, I have to shake my head at how our government and media are portraying the Muslims. Our ideology-driven Middle-East policy is the single biggest foreign factor that contributes to the bloodshed there. The Chinese are not born communists. Their life expectancy was around 40 during the capitalist days before 1949. One can argue they had little choice but to follow Mao. Now that they know communism doesn’t work, give them some time to find a road out. Until there is a majority middle class that understands balance-of-power through institutes and the inclusion of minority while majority rules, all those rhetorical calls for democracy are downright pernicious. Take a look at the shantytowns in Sao Paulo or Bogota and ask yourselves why “democratic”, resource-rich, low-population countries can be so bad. Why we have problem with the democratically elected Iranian and Palestinian leaders while turning a blind eye to the extreme inequality in India? While I agree the framing of the US Constitution is the best I have studied, we have to understand that different countries follow different historical paths. Forcing others, especially through war, to follow us is wrong and sometimes disastrous. Sad to tell you that the Iraq war turns out to be exactly I predicted. When we pull out, the people we tried to help will have a huge celebration! To sum up: less ideology, more pragmatism. Focus on improving people’s lives, and over time we will have a peaceful international society that can live with, or even appreciate, each other’s differences.
Respectfully yours

For a taste of mainland "objective journalism", please take a look at this People's Daily staged "interview" regarding Western so-called assymetric media warfare on the Tibet issue. Truly hilarious.

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90780/91342/6393940.html

Autobotalex,

It is not necessarily an "either/or" choice in terms of develop/not develop economically. The growth may be sustained but moderate under a more representative form of government. The choice is about the speed of economic development and whether the human toll is worth it. You seem to answer "yes, it is worth it." Fair enough.