Comments (158)

Chinese officials sacked for quake corruption

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-06/09/content_8334868.htm

June 7 (Xinhua) -- The Chinese government and people have timely and effectively responded to a recent earthquake in China's southwestern Sichuan Province, Mozambican Prime Minister Luisa Dias Diogo stated here Saturday.

"We think that the Chinese government has done a lot to recover the situation. Visits of the prime minister, immediate reactions of the government and so on, that is the best way. Also important is internal solidarity. The first solidarity should start at home and the Chinese people are showing that," she told Xinhua reporters on the sidelines of the 18th Global Summit of Women held here from June 5-7.

The Chinese government is building houses for people so they can start their life again, she said, stating that housing is one of the most important issues now.

She expressed deep sorrow for the loss of so many people in the major earthquake and reiterated the friendship between the Mozambican and the Chinese peoples.

The Mozambican prime minister is attending the women summit, themed "Women and Asia: Driving the Global Economy" and attended by over 900 businesspersons, professionals and government officials.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-06/07/content_8325260.htm

Lord, Ronald, is there no article that you cannot distort to serve your prejudices? It may be your less than perfect command of English, but you consistently mis-characterize your, already thin, sources of "evidence". In fact, your posts and accompanying links show a jaw-dropping lack of perspective and understanding of what your are reading. Maybe you should cease directing other to "read and learn" and put some time into improving your analytical skills.

Goodbye, Ronald. Rant on.

Police break up protest by angry parents

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/03/asia/quake.php

Raqul:
Try to read this post. Please pay attention to the blogger called himself "Harry Haught"

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/pomfretschina/2008/06/our_first_fu_manchu_awardwinne.html

By describing Chinese (mainlanders) as a pack of rabid dogs, give you an idea how some Americans really think about China and Chinese people in particular especially after he had lived in Asia for 17 years and make numberous trip to China.
Does he have any friend(real) there. That is why I was alarmed about the western world look at China. I don't want to call dogs on the street just because I was born Chinese.
Try to read the blogger called himself "A Mirror of Arrogance". That is another side of view about the Tibetan incident.

Please read this post by a Time magazine columnist.
http://time-blog.com/china_blog/2008/06/the_us_getting_serious_about_c.html
Even he laugh at the notion that China is responsible for a cysber attack on US. Some of the posters has doubts about how advance Chinese technology really is. It does not stop the media especially CNN and certain political elite to repeat this. Dream on about free press.

To Ronald:
I don't admire any government because they are all run by googs and hypocrite. As for individual human being, I admire them all, Westerners or whatever even though there are mass murderers among us.

So after all that is said,
which Western country do you admire?

Raqul:
Read this story on New York Times today.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/world/americas/03venez.html?hp
Why is US so concerned about how Chavz runs his country ? How about the Pakistan government, or Saudi Arabia for that matter. Why is the media so involved in undermining Chavz ? Is this free press or conspiracy ? You will be the judge.

What is the point of debating US involvement in Latin American, when the whole country from media to both parties, were deeply involved in undermining Chavz ? I do not know how bad Chavz is. However, it is a criminal behavior to try to over-throw a legitimate government in other country. The so-called Chavz incident, is not ancient history either. That means your government has not changed at all from the old days. What happens to the claim that democracy can correct itself. Admit it. US is an empire, committed to dominate the world. All the rhetoric about human right and freedom of speech are nothing but political tools.

I knew the involvement of your civilized country in Latin American all along. Showing that video to you is to point out the actual behavior of so-called NED, giving large amount of money to over-throw a legitimate goverment in other country. Do you deny it? I also like to point out that it was not my own opinion, that NED is a CIA front, doing dirty work for CIA.

I believe Ronald is a 9th grader at Xian middle school #9 and his parents have left him alone with a case of Jolt cola and unlimited internet time.

Ronald that looks like a good video. And the history of US intervention in Latin America is painful, and has been debated and lamented and continues to be discussed openly and energetically, as it should.

How is it that this is all new to you? You who grew up in the West...

Sigh...Ronald finds a comment by an obscure writer with an obvious axe to grind and thinks he's discovered gold. Ronald, my friend, you need to go back to school, so that you can learn to make a reasoned argument.

Okay, not for Ronald, because that would be wasted effort, but for general clarification: NED is funded by the US Congress. It funds civil society groups all around the world to try to support more representative governance. The organization has never tried to hide that. Similarly, the U.S. State Department, USAID, etc., perform similar functions, at least in part. Are they all the CIA?

Conspiracy theories of the "the CIA controls the world, man!" variety seem particularly attractive to numbskulls, for some reason. Not sure why.

Excerpt:
It could become a time-game to "Sinicize" Tibet fully. This, in turn, would set apart Chinese and exiled Tibetans in more than one way. The Tibetans in China could be "culturally killed" or at least "culturally maimed".

Main article at Asia Times
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JD11Ad01.html

Since Ronald uses Asia Times to back his NED argument, then it's also fair to use Asia Times to reinforce the Sinicization argument.

Raqul:
NED provided funding for overthrowing Chavz.
If NED is not the front of CIA, I do not know what it is. You are so naive.

To To Ronald:
I admire the lofty idea of democracy but I just hate what was shown on that video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3739500579629840148&hl=en-GB

Ronald, u said "I was born and raised in the West and have travelled to China only once"

Your posts show that not only you do not understand Western perspective, you have shown yourself to be anti-West as well. You have constantly attacked any foreign idea with stupid reasons.

You have exposed youself as a CCP stooge.

Having watch that video, finally, I realize why Americans like JED want everybody to be democratic in a hurry so that they can manipulate and control other countries. Raqul, please watch it and repend.

The West like US are fake champions of democracy, behind the rhetorics it's all about power and money. Watch this and you will agree. That is why the media can be so biased. Don't be fooled.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3739500579629840148&hl=en-GB

Despite challenges, the Chinese has shown the world their compassion and their ability to do good. Maybe the rise of modern China can help the West better understand their own problems and lead to better efforts to address real issues such as climate change, water crisis, food crisis, and poverty. These should be everyone's priorities instead of meaningless arguments on why my ideology is better than yours.

Try to explain it as much as you will, all you need to do is read George Orwell's 1984. He saw it coming decades ago and even though his timing was a bit off, he explains to you what is behind the scenes. You merely have to pay attention and put the pieces together. Knowledge is not something that is given to you without effort, you must seek it, gather evidence, analyse the evidence, then let your mind work on it to give you knowledge.

When you look at what the CCP is doing in Tibet, it is exactly what Orwell describes in his book. They are trying to twist the childrens minds, so in the future, it will foment dischord between them, some will be extremists against religious beliefs... beliefs in general that aren't part of the regime's dogma. The regime strives for total control of the population and fear the independence and individuality of buddhism. The pacificim and respect for others also goes against all their plans because it is almost imposible to send pacifists to war, the regime is ready to make enemies of anyone who stands in their way of economic dominance, subjugation of the masses, and control of all science and industry.
Such is the way of the machines... totalitarianism, regarless of the cost in lives and happiness; to it, we are merely tools, more machines. This must be reversed soon, and from within. Not by prodding or pushing from outside. We must stop partaking in the criminal enterprise of the CCP on it's people. Employ the tools or cooperation and growth rather than suspicion and stagnation. The CCPs fear of loosing control, makes it into the sort of tyrant that people wish to overthrow.

The word "Sinicization" or " modernization" is very misleading. The question is "Industrializtion" or "Feudalization". Which society do you want to live in. It does not matter whether you are European or American. Changes in society is inevitable. Globalization is another thing that has bigger impact on a culture. Hollywood, Coca-Cola and MacDonald represent consumerism and an efficient way to distribute service. They would have bigger impact on Tibetan culture than Chinese. Cultural genocide is a catch word that is very damaging to the development of Tibetan economy and development of the society from agriculture-based to the next level. Only a stupid monk would use word like that.

It could become a time-game to "Sinicize" Tibet fully. This, in turn, would set apart Chinese and exiled Tibetans in more than one way. The Tibetans in China could be "culturally killed" or at least "culturally maimed".

In the past 60 years, Chinese rulers have committed a "cultural genocide" on their own culture: they saw it as a necessary measure in the process of modernization and becoming an advanced nation.

Chinese can feel that they saved more of the Tibetan culture than they did of their own culture, and this could be the general feeling in the future. After all, China was a historical melting pot that managed to digest the Manchurian Qing, the Mongolic Yuan and the Turkic Tang, so why not the Tibetans?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JD11Ad01.html

Raqul:

NED is preceived as a front of CIA all across Asia. It is not my own opinion. Look at the media website from India

Here is the link to show where I got this information from.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JE10Df01.html

Asia Times is a subsidiary of Times Magazine published in Australia.

@ StoptheAtrocitiesinTibet:

thank you for posting here this report, it is very interesting and I recognized the sites of Lhasa where I have been living for a while. What a painful picture, Tibetans are not allowed to do the kora around the Jokhang. Police in plain clothes where always patrolling the Bargkhor but now even more Chinese angry faces are to be seen inside the overpolluted Lhasa.

"Why do some commentators here dislike the CCP? Because the government maintains itself by sustained and institutionalized falsehood."--from Masters of Doublespeak

Absolutely true! There is so much evidence of this.

Here's a letter from a Lhasa resident who wishes to remain anonymous; it spells it out the situation in Lhasa more clearly, when you compare this to the news China puts out about Tibet. This was written around the end of April:

Yesterday it was quite hot outside and the military that were guarding
one of the petrol stations was protected by a big umbrella from the
intense sunrays. Today it's the opposite; cold, cloudy and even quick
snowfalls as storm fronts hover on the mountains and sometimes close
in on the valley. Like the weather here in Lhasa the rules are
changing too. One day you can go nearly everywhere, the next, military
checkpoints won't let you pass. At the beginning of last week it
seemed life was getting back to normal. Guards at the checkpoints
relaxed and they seemed not as serious anymore, and overall, there was
less military on the streets. But then suddenly heavy military
presence was back. A few days ago, in the evening, I walked up Beijing
Road. As I did, many military trucks passed me and there were patrols
everywhere, only a few cars were to be seen driving around and the
streets were near empty of civilian people. The atmosphere was tense
and made the young, normally childish looking military, suddenly look
scary.

It is difficult to describe Lhasa these days, because you can only see
a fraction of what is really going on. If you quickly glance at the
city it may seem normal except for the old Tibetan centre, east of the
Potala Palace. In the centre, military has occupied every intersection
and stand on every side street, diligently checking your identity
card. Even the tiniest of alleyways have at least four military
personnel, of whom at least one has a bayonet and all of them a
shield, a bat and a helmet. The bigger intersections have more
military and people often have to line up in order to get checked.
Ethnic Chinese can pass these checkpoints much easier than local
Tibetans. Tibetans living at Dromsikhang and the Barkhor need a
special, police issued paper in order to be allowed to go in and out
the immediate area surrounding their homes.

The square in front of the holiest Tibetan Temple, the Jokhang,
normally a sea of people, prostrating, circumambulating and
socialising, is now completely empty. In front of the square two
military in blue uniforms strictly ensure nobody walks on the square.
As back up, in case they miss a person, military in green suddenly
appear out of no where to apprehend and push back person's entering
these normally public areas. The round pedestrian street circling the
Jokhang is empty too. Only people living in this area are allowed to
pass, forbidden to do religious Koras around the Jokhang, and instead
on the normally bustling retail and religious lanes you can only find
small children playing football and other games, trying to get on with
life, behind the military guards on these silent streets.

On Beijing Road and Sera Road the government has initiated road works.
Sections of road are being dug up and replaced where cars were burnt
during the March 14 protests leaving black tarmac. Sidewalks on
Beijing Road are being repaved as well after protesters used the
pavement stones to throw and break shop windows. As you walk through
Lhasa, you can still see many burnt or damaged shops. On Beijing Road
alone, there are around 16 shops or shopping complexes burnt out, one
of them being the Bank of China and one a jewellery store.

Not only are roads and shops getting rebuilt, but also some old,
traditional Tibetan houses.

If you look complacently around town you may think there is not a
heavy military presence anymore. However, if you look in every hotel
and building courtyard and in windows, you see these areas covered in
military; trucks, tents and more often the military themselves
exercising. Wherever there is space, you find military. They are
hidden in any empty building, behind buildings and even in the
hospital courtyard of Lhasa City Peoples Hospital.

Walking the streets of Lhasa, seeing big tea houses unusually empty
and many shops still closed, it makes you aware of how scared people
are these days. Very few people stop on the street when they meet
friends, because every gathering of people is suspicious. A lot of
people still stay at home because they are scared they will get
arrested for no reason if they go out.

When you finally find someone not too scared to talk to you, you hear
consistent, dramatic, disturbing and daunting stories that give you
nightmares. But since they don't have proof of what happened, it is
difficult to inform the media. From the 14th of March 2008, there has
been a heavy military presence in addition to the original security
cameras which all monitor the city so people were too scared to take
photographs of the tanks in front of the Jokhang Temple and elsewhere
in town. And since all the dead bodies got immediately carried away by
the military or taken from peoples home during nightly military raids,
nobody can prove their brother, relative or friend died, all they can
confirm is that this person disappeared. Only rumours about the death
toll and the arrested people are anxiously passed from person to
person.

Yesterday I talked to a Tibetan man who was speaking for himself and
his friends who want the world to know what is going on here. He asked
me if I can pass all the information he has on to foreign media, so
people here get help and don't have to be so scared anymore.

By talking to me he risks being arrested and being tortured in prison,
but he seems desperate enough to not care about that. In order to
protect him, his family and friends and also myself, I don't want to
tell more details about the place we met, his age or job. But that is
what he told me:

"On March 14th in the afternoon we heard that there were
demonstrations going on in front of Ramoche Temple. Later we saw four
people dragging a person who was shot dead in front of the Jokhang and
that was when we became really scared. Normally the government should
use gas or water against protesters, but here they shoot them. So we
went home as fast as possible.

In the evening my wife went to pick up our child from school around
6p.m. At that time the military was already on Jiangsu Road were the
school was. The military was shooting at the locals who went to pick
up their children. One woman got shot in her leg and one man was hit
in the head or neck and he died. Later his brother wanted to get his
corpse from the hospital, but the hospital didn't want to give it out.
Finally the brother got so desperate that he threatened to burn
himself and the hospital if they didn't give his dead brother to his
family. The hospital gave him his brother's body, but just a few hours
after they came home the military came and took the dead body away.

After March 14th whenever somebody died, you had to get three
different papers in order to be allowed to bring the dead body to the
sky burial place. If you didn't have these papers you got pushed back
inside your house with the dead body by the army; a very bad omen in
Tibetan culture. These three papers one needed were from the local
police, the hospital and a lawyer. The reason for this was that with
this rule the government made sure that everybody who didn't die under
normal circumstances was found and taken away from the family, so
nobody can make pictures and show them to friends or journalists
outside Tibet. The problem for the people was that all the offices
were closed during these days and therefore nobody could bring their
dead family members to the sky burial place on the days they should
have according to Tibetan astrology.

On March 14, 15 and 16 military came around midnight to check the
homes in our area for pictures of the Dalai Lama, and took everybody
with them who didn't have an identity card. They also had with them
pictures of people who were in the demonstrations and they compared
them with our faces. About 50 military men with guns came to our home
and searched everything. We stayed at home for three days, only going
out to go to the toilet and we only had Tsampa to eat, and people
whose home ran out of gas even couldn't boil water. The gate to our
house complex was closed and there were army posted in front of it. If
you went out, you got beaten up quite badly by them. After three days
everybody who worked for the government got a phone call and had to go
back to work. Without this working permit we were still not allowed to
go out. I know at least seven people who got arrested and one who got
shot.

When the foreign journalists were in Lhasa, I think it was from 27th
to 29th of March, the military suddenly disappeared from the streets.
Instead of wearing their military uniform they changed into traffic
police, gatekeeper uniforms or civil dress and they were hiding inside
buildings and behind corners where the journalists couldn't see them.
We were suddenly allowed to go everywhere; there were no checkpoints
during these days. When the journalists were allowed to walk around by
themselves, officials in normal clothes or traditional dress followed
them, answered their questions and made pictures of individuals who
talked to the press. We wanted to tell the press what is going on here
in reality, behind this show that was made up for them, but we didn't
have any chance to get close to them without being punished for that
later. When we finally heard that the Jokhang monks told them the
truth we were very happy.

The pilgrims inside the Jokhang temple were all elderly officials who
were forced to go there for pilgrimage on this day. Normally these
people are not allowed to engage in any religious activities, but on
this day they had to go. And lot of the other officials were given
leave from their office and were told to go to the Barkhor and the
Potala, if possible with their families, so it looks like there is lot
of freedom in Lhasa.

After the journalists left the military came back into public
immediately and we heard that the Jokhang monks got arrested for their
statements in front of the media and officials two days later.

Between 17th and 20th of April most of the monks were taken away from
Sera to an unknown place. Sera Monastery normally has over 300 monks
but now there is only a handful left who care for the chapels. Around
midnight about fifteen to twenty military trucks came and detained the
monks. We have this information from inside the monastery and also
from an abutting owner. But we don't know what is happening in Drepung
and Ganden, two of the biggest monastic centres around Lhasa, but we
have heard they have been arrested and taken out of Lhasa.

>From the monasteries around Lhasa a lot of monks and nuns got taken
away too and the ones who are still at their monastery are under house
arrest. We think the government is scared that when the Olympic flame
is in Lhasa there will be new protests by the monks and nuns, that's
why they detain them. They took all of them, no matter if they
protested on March 10th and the following days or not, only chapel
keepers, drivers and a few other monastery workers are allowed to stay
in the monasteries.

Lately there are only a few monks to be seen on the streets. It is
dangerous for them, because on the Tibetan TV channel they said that
for every suspicious person you report to the police you will get
RMB20000. In reality you only get about RMB2000 but still people call
when they see monk or nuns.

Since last week all Tibetans who are not from Lhasa have to go back to
their homeland, except students and teachers studying at government
schools. The police come to your home and send you out of Lhasa if you
are not from here. When the Olympic Torch is in Lhasa only local
people and Chinese are allowed to be here. They did that few years ago
too during the 50 year peaceful liberation celebration.

There is a big problem in jail now. There is not enough food, not
enough water and not enough blankets. The prisoners have to sleep on
the ground and sometimes they only get one cup of water a day and
nothing else. This way they get health problems, their bodies get
really weak and they die, either in prison or after they get released.
The prisoners get beaten up very badly. They especially beat the
kidney, liver and gall region so prisoners get internal injuries and
slowly die. We know this from three friends who just got released from
prison.

We are so worried about our friends and family members who are in
prison. We need to help them, but we don't know what to do. That's why
we have to tell the foreigners so the world will get to know and help
us.

It is still very tight here in Lhasa. Without ID cards you cannot go
out and if you live at Dromsikhang or Barkhor you need a special
paper. Wherever there is a gathering or argument people get arrested.

At the schools and in the offices people have to write stories about
the 14th of March and they have to speak ill of His Holiness the Dalai
Lama. When they write about the Dalai Lama they are only allowed to
write Dalai, otherwise they have to write it again. My child already
had to write such stories three times.

We are scared and worried about the prisoners. After the
demonstrations, I saw some military vehicles like they use in the Iraq
war, the same vehicles I saw in the news about Iraq [Tanks] but they
were in our city. I thought these vehicles are only allowed in war
between two countries. On the Tibetan TV News one presenter said that
the military did a very good job since this was their first experience
with something like war and a good opportunity for them to practise
how to shoot and how to kill people.

Now they already started the preparations for the Olympic Flame to
come here. They are putting up decorations on the Potala and Jokhang
Square [big Olympic Rings were set up in front of Jokhang and removed
again yesterday evening]".

What this man told me, I have also heard from other people without
connections to him.

I have no doubt the Chinese government will forbid foreign tourists
from visiting here for the next few months. Tibetans want a chance to
tell their side of the story; they try to tell you what happened to
them. They know they need help from outside and therefore I believe,
by preventing tourism, the government has a way of controlling,
censoring and suppressing the situation here.

What has happened and continues to happen in Lhasa is extremely sad
and scary. Never before have I heard monks talking about methods of
torture used in local prisons and different gun types that were used
by military during this year's demonstrations in Lhasa. And never
before have I seen Tibetan people so desperate and angry that they do
things they know they will die for or be put in prison for a long
time.

With the up and coming Labour Day Celebration and Torch Relay in May
anxiety has increased in Lhasa and fear of citywide house arrest has
resulted in the stockpiling of food.

Every day you see people arguing with army at checkpoints. A father
and daughter wanted to pass a checkpoint however the military
personnel told the man he was permitted but his daughter, who is not
old enough to have an identity card, was refused access due to not
having one.

But even in this difficult time you still see brave and good actions.
Yesterday I saw a little boy, around one or two years old; that I
believed displayed a good example of Tibetan spirit. The baby looked
as if he had just learnt how to walk and was out with his grandmother
and her little dog. They were standing in front of the Jokhang Square
where military in blue ensures nobody crosses the square. The baby
walked up the three steps to the square and started to make
prostrations towards the Jokhang while his grandmother also prayed but
her frail body prevented her from prostrating as well. When the boy
finished he looked at the guards, then at his grandmother, and then
started to walk closer to the temple. The guards looked at the baby,
not knowing what to do. After about ten meters the baby boy stopped
and prostrated again, then turned around, walked back to one of the
guards and took his hand to say goodbye. Seeing this reminded me that
all Tibetan people want is religious freedom and the right to preserve
their culture.

They are tired of writing papers against the Dalai Lama, of patriotic
re-education and all the rules and regulations that make their life so
difficult.

"There are some political idea that might work for other country"

The totalitarian Qing dynasty lasted more than two centuries.

The commoners were expendable labor, but it did'nt mean that this "political idea" works.

Do remember that communism is a foreign idea.

Ronald,

Since we are apparently the only two here, let me try to make my point clearly. Below, I have posted a representative excerpt from one of your earlier posts. You are certainly free to make the outlandish claims that you do; I am equally free to point out that you seem incapable of making a coherent argument without saying thing that are demagogic, totally unsupported, and just plain stupid.

"Now, the Taiwanese has a new government. Reapproachment between the two sides, is picking up steam. I do not know how the military industrial complex in the US would spin this to justify the notion that China will invade Taiwan. By the way, as soon as the new government in Taiwan is in place, hords of Senators from the US decended on Taiwan urging them to buy military hardwares from them at a ridiculously inflated price. It seems that the only thing they care is selling arms to Taiwan instead of protecting the democracy there. NED is preceived as a front of CIA all across Asia. It is not my own opinion. Look at the media website from India. By the way, quoting third party report i.e. Swiss TV video clip, is more reliable than using rhetoric from pentagon as a proof."

Ronald, what gets through my head is that you use exaggeration and distortion to try to make your point. I hope you can get this through your head. But I'm not optimistic.

Raqul:
You are still missing my point. I am trying to present some other aspect of the situation that counters conventional wisdom - democracy is the only worthwhile political system. Chinese should be inspired by it notwithstanding the short-coming showing up in US. Democracy is a lofty idea that has never been achieved by any country. Chinese has their own lofty idea inspired by years of confusicus teaching, that has never been achieved either. I am sure Chinese police could be as brutal as animal at times. However, there is also a human side of them as well. Police in the West is not perfect either. Please, don't take it the wrong way that I am trying glorify the Chinese system. I do not have enough knowledge and experience to do that. I just try to present a counter point here so that independent thinkers can think outside the box that democracy is the only thing that matters. There are some political idea that might work for other country. I hope that you can get this throught your head.

Spin your half-baked distortions, Ronald. No doubt, US cops get out of control at times and do horrible things -- again, no one is an angel here.

But your characterization of mainland Confucion "fatherly" government is laughable: what about all those FalunGong dissidents who are killed in detention?

Personally, in Chengdu in 1996, I saw four police beating the hell out of a homeless man with bamboo staves b/c he wanted to bathe in a public fountain. The beating went on for at least 30 minutes til his body was covered with welts. No one dared intervene.

Abuse of power occurs in all societies, to varying degrees. Your distortions, I can only guess, are willful.

Chinese thinking vs Western thinking
In the mind of Chinese after immersing in confucius idea for 4000 years, political leader is supposed to be a fatherly figure, a person with a firm hand and a kind heart. That is why Preimer Wen is called Grandpa Wen. In the mind of westerners, government especially leaders, should be put on a lash otherwise they will abuse their power and become a dictator.
My personal experience in China:
I was in China for a visit in 1993. I ran into an argument between a uniform policman and an old lady. The old lady kept yelling at the police and the police kept stepping back and finally walked away. The old lady turned around and started going through garbage for recyclable.

Event happened in US on TV news:
A driver was chased by police cars through traffic light. The driver jumped out and started to run. Four policemen converged on him and started throwing plunges at him at a very busy spot of the city while he was pinned down on the floor. His crime was resisting arrest. In US, the laws says if a policeman try to arrest you, you are not allowed to resist or make forceful body contact against the policeman. If you do, the policeman is allowed to use forceful means to subdue you. If you are a foreigner visiting and a policeman approach you for questioning, don't run. If you do not speak English, ask for a lawyer. That is USA. The land of the free. A similiar incident happened to a Chinese business woman shopping for her retail stores in China. She took a side tour to Niagara Falls. She walked to look at the guard house at the border, turned around and tried to walk away. The border guard came out of the guard house and chased after her. She was then pinned down on the floor, pepper-sprayed and plunges thrown at her until her face swelled so badly that her eyes was shut. She was arrested and later released with no charges. Her mistake was trying to run away while the border guard told her to stop. That happened before 9/11. Her swelled face was all over the Asia.
Different culture and different event.

To Hamilton:
About dis-satisfaction of government:
According to one poll conducted by Western Pollster in China couple of years ago, Beijing government has 83% approval rating. In another report, it said the middle class in the urban area was so happy with current situation that they are not in a hurry to push for political change. One Time correspondent wrote a story about his experience being an English Teacher in China. His conclusion was that the majority (99%)of his student did not care about politic at all. Even now, his students living inside and outside of China, still does not care about politics. Westerners are brought up with the notion that political involvement is part of civil duty. Most people outside do not share their view. Political change comes from the top in China and not from the bottom. Revolution in China came only when economic disaster hits. Don't hold your breathe waiting for middle class pushing for democratic change especially after the riot in Tibet.

Why do some commentators here dislike the CCP? Because the government maintains itself by sustained and institutionalized falsehood. Here is a recent white paper published in People's Daily on the subject of "China's socialist political democracy". We find gems like, China is "a democracy guaranteed by the people's democratic dictatorship". Doubleplus good that!

The full treatise is worth reading for its word-twisting madness. Here's an excerpt:

China's socialist political democracy shows Chinese characteristics: white paper

China's socialist political democracy shows distinctive Chinese characteristics, says a white paper on Building of Political Democracy in China, issued by the Information Office of the State Council on Wednesday.

The white paper says,in building socialist political democracy, China has always adhered to the basic principle that the Marxist theory of democracy be combined with the reality of China, borrowed from the useful achievements of the political civilization of mankind, including Western democracy, and assimilated the democratic elements of China's traditional culture and institutional civilization.

The white paper says China's democracy is a people's democracy under the leadership of the CPC, a democracy in which the overwhelming majority of the people act as masters of state affairs and a democracy with democratic centralism as the basic organizational principle and mode of operation.

The white paper says China's democracy is a people's democracy under the leadership of the CPC. The democratic political system in China was established by the Chinese people led by the CPC. The development and improvement of this system are also carried out under the CPC's leadership, which is a fundamental guarantee for the Chinese people to be masters in managing the affairs of their own country.

[etc.]
source: http://english.people.com.cn/200510/19/eng20051019_215257.html

Tibet enjoyed its freedom before it was "liberated" to become a Chinese province.

uhh...Go Tibet, you crazy.

Tibet was a free country before it was "liberated" to become a Chinese province.

"China has been demonized. Senators, the alleged China experts writers and military expert came on to declare China as evil and threat to world peace."

Did they really declare China "evil", Ronald, and a "threat to world peace"?

Again, you distort, exaggerate and malign. I don't think you even realize it.

I did not say you called China evil. I do not think you have influence that I care about. However, if you turn on CNN, progams after programs, days after days, China has been demonized. Senators, the alleged China experts writers and military expert came on to declare China as evil and threat to world peace. Right now, I do not watch CNN anymore except Larry King. It is very upsetting.

Who said China is evil? That is not the point of my responses. My point is that your statements are a string of serial distortions and exaggerations. Your justification for your outlandish claims seems to be, "I don't create the lies and exaggeration, I just repeat it."
You share more with Sharon Stone than you might realize.

Raqul:
I never said I advocate the approach of Chinese government to solve internal problems. I just try to point out to you that so-called democracy is not the answer for everything. The conception that China is source of all evil, is very dangerous. That can lead to unnecessary war. The concept that Dalai Lama is a peaceful monk, is another illusion that you guys should clarify within yourself. I have a very selfish reason for doing that, my own safety. Being living in the West all my life, I have witnessed personally the damage done to innocent people because of similar rhetoric. That is why I keep saying their government need improvement, so as the US government who is so inclined to use military might to solve every problem in the world.
Now, the Taiwanese has a new government. Reapproachment between the two sides, is picking up steam. I do not know how the military industrial complex in the US would spin this to justify the notion that China will invade Taiwan. By the way, as soon as the new government in Taiwan is in place, hords of Senators from the US decended on Taiwan urging them to buy military hardwares from them at a ridiculously inflated price. It seems that the only thing they care is selling arms to Taiwan instead of protecting the democracy there. NED is preceived as a front of CIA all across Asia. It is not my own opinion. Look at the media website from India. By the way, quoting third party report i.e. Swiss TV video clip, is more reliable than using rhetoric from pentagon as a proof. Don't you think. I don't think I can change your mind on anything we talk about here. However, I express my view and hopefully some curious people will start to realize there are two sides of every coin. Every decison people makes, carries consequences. Tone down the rhetoric and be less like Sharon Stone.

To Hamilton:
I just did some research on the history of China between 1949-1976. It seems to me from the outset of the establishment of PRC, people like Deng, will like to reform Chinese economy. Korean war put a stop to that. Mao embarked on Great Lap forward to jump start the country. He failed and Deng came back to take charge. Mao fought back with cultural revolution. It failed. Deng came back to stablize the country. Mao fought back. Deng was in detention again until Mao died. The real revolution then started. Am I correct so far. Saying that everything will remain the same without change in political structure, is oblivious of what had happened in China for the last 20 years. It is like saying the Iraqi war will happen anyway even if Democrates was in the White House. People in the media, has been saying for the last 20 years, Russian with sock-and-awe approach to political reform will succeed and China will fail because they have democracy. Looking back at it right now, should vandicate the Chinese government. Their approach of go-slow to everything from political reform to currency reform, is a better one in eyes of many Chinese even thought you guys don't agree with them. Different stroke for different folks. Just don't domonize other government and people because they do not agree with you. That goes with Pomfret who blame the genocide of Danfur on the Chinese Goverment. It is getting too dangerous here.

Don't worry about Ronald. He posts on other blogs. He is a Ministry of State Security paid blogger

And please spare us from any more of your "I found it on the Internet, so it must be true" style sourcing.

Ronald,

Democratic institutions are indeed fragile, and sometimes fail. But they have an in-built correction mechanism, in that leaders who mess up can be changed, institutions that falter (like the press in the lead up to the Iraq war) are subject to open and rigorous critique. Authoritarianism lacks those mechanisms.

You prefer the jackboot as the answer to all problems, apparently. You are welcome to your vision. However, the exaggerations and outright falsehoods that litter your tirades (e.g., NED as the front for the CIA, etc.) betray the crude level of your thought.

To Hamilton:
In contrast to what you think. I was born and raised in the West and have travelled to China only once in my life-time as a tourist in 1993. I have not said anything about the modern life in China and only cited media clip as my argument. That should give you a hint that I have very little knowledge about what is going on in China. My in-depth knowledge about the West, should give you a hint that I am more westernized than you think. My disillusion came when I witnessed the bias presented in the West from the Media to the government, saying that China is the biggest threat to world peace. Now, Chinese people and Chinese culture is under attack. I am worried about my own safety living in the West, if this is not confronted head on. The spill-over effect could be anti-Chinese riot. I say it again and again. Every government need improvement. Don't think western democracy as the only thing that matters and non-democratic societies are evil and should be confronted head on. I am not even a Chinese citizen. I just happen to be born Chinese. Is that a curse or blessing. I am wondering out loud?
As my travelling experience: I have been to Western Europe twice, Vietnam, Argentina and China only once. How about your travelling experience ?
To: Raqul:
Democratic institutions like independent judicial system, separate legislative branch, free press and balance of power, do not guarantee anything.
You guys have this institutions for 200 years now. It did not stop slavery, genocide against native Indian, and invasion of other countries for profit. It took the threat of communism for you to accept labor union in 50s. Civil right movement and embarassment in front of the world forced you to end racial discrimination against racial minority. Anti-jewish sentiment was not invented by the Nazi, it existed in the West long before Hilter came to power. Before world war II, Germany did have all the precious institutions that was steam-rollered by Hilter throught intimidation and violence. Just look at how GW and his clan steam-rollered your precious institutions into submission before the Iraqi war. Your precious free press just repeat the same thing GW told them. What the use of free press if they don't think independently. Your so-called democratic institutions are very fragile. The problem is you don't want to admit it.
Western so-called assymetric media warfare against China:
There was conference in Seattle in 2007 organized by CIA for inter-national Tibet groups. Major German political parties was in that conference. Their main topic was how to harass China during the Olympic year. NED, the front for CIA covert activities, is now funding more than 20 Tibetan groups in the US alone. Soros is one of the biggest contributor to the Tibetan cause. Watching the media coverage after the riot, one must wonder that assymetric media warfare is really true. Nobody can be unbiased because we are human being. Saying that only Chinese media is biased and western media is not, is wrong.

Another point I would like to make:
Right after the earth quake, there is another leak in the media citing unidentified government official about Chinese stealing information from Commerce officials while they were in China. This is an old story. Why repeat it right now. Knowing how GW used media for propaganda for his war in Iraq, I just wonder whether this is a not-so-subtle way to remind the public China is still the biggest threat to the US. If western media are willing participants in this kind of propganda, then Western so-called assymetric media warfare against China does exist. CNN has been the front of all media attacking China because they do not have much business in that country. You don't hear that kind of rhetoric from Fox news who is famous for their conservative view on politics. Why ? The boss of Fox news invests very heavily in China. He even married a former female executive of Chinese TV network. His wife is running his Chinese division and happens to be younger than his children. So much as for independent media. One old saying says it all. "Freedom of speech and freedom of the press belongs to people who owns it."

Ronald,
Indeed, our viewpoints are shaped and limited by our experiences. I hope you’ll have the opportunities to travel around. In the meantime, try to find out what happened in China between 1956 and 1976, when the government structure is essentially the same as today’s. Unless you are one of the beneficiaries, you can’t be happy with the current rampant corruption either, right?

Raoul,
Thanks for the thoughtful postings. I was fortunate to have a job that let me roam all corners of the world. One thing for certain: most of the people in the world care less about ideology. They are just like us. They just want a better life. After living for years in Bhrain, Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Riyadh, I have to shake my head at how our government and media are portraying the Muslims. Our ideology-driven Middle-East policy is the single biggest foreign factor that contributes to the bloodshed there. The Chinese are not born communists. Their life expectancy was around 40 during the capitalist days before 1949. One can argue they had little choice but to follow Mao. Now that they know communism doesn’t work, give them some time to find a road out. Until there is a majority middle class that understands balance-of-power through institutes and the inclusion of minority while majority rules, all those rhetorical calls for democracy are downright pernicious. Take a look at the shantytowns in Sao Paulo or Bogota and ask yourselves why “democratic”, resource-rich, low-population countries can be so bad. Why we have problem with the democratically elected Iranian and Palestinian leaders while turning a blind eye to the extreme inequality in India? While I agree the framing of the US Constitution is the best I have studied, we have to understand that different countries follow different historical paths. Forcing others, especially through war, to follow us is wrong and sometimes disastrous. Sad to tell you that the Iraq war turns out to be exactly I predicted. When we pull out, the people we tried to help will have a huge celebration! To sum up: less ideology, more pragmatism. Focus on improving people’s lives, and over time we will have a peaceful international society that can live with, or even appreciate, each other’s differences.
Respectfully yours

For a taste of mainland "objective journalism", please take a look at this People's Daily staged "interview" regarding Western so-called assymetric media warfare on the Tibet issue. Truly hilarious.

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90780/91342/6393940.html

Autobotalex,

It is not necessarily an "either/or" choice in terms of develop/not develop economically. The growth may be sustained but moderate under a more representative form of government. The choice is about the speed of economic development and whether the human toll is worth it. You seem to answer "yes, it is worth it." Fair enough.

Another education for you people, DL lovers.
Thoughout Tibetan history, Tibet was governed by warlords in conjuction with monasteries. The biggest sects are automonous from each other. DL sec is called Yellow Hat. Saying DL represents all Tibetans is a lie by itself. The Red Hat sect and Black Hat sect never took order from Yellow hat and never will. All the riot and protests were in the area controlled by Yellow Hat Sect. How are they going to control the other sect once DL returns as political leader ? Use the words from one of his minister shown on SWISS TV clips as a hint, (Anybody opposes orders from Dalai Lama, should be dealed with by all means including violence.) does it mean civil war among Tibetans? If they cannot tolerate religious minority within their own sect, how are they going to tolerate disobedience from other sects. History told us that 5th DL had ordered mass killing of other sects. Will it happen again ? What happened in India, told us that answer is going to be a definite yes. Will you, DL Lovers want to be responsible for another holocaust ? WOW.
Wake up and get real. DL has never been the person that CIA presents it to be. The way China is portrayed today including the people and her cultute, is similiar to what happened to Jews in the so-called civilized western world before world war II. Isn't that sickening by itself? If you guys want to find an execuse to spend money on military, don't use China as a goal post. All the Tibetan movement in the west is about defeating China before it is too late. Period. You guys don't really care about Tibetans people more than GW cares about Iraqi civilians. 4 millions Iraqi displaced, 600,000 dead as a result of his liberation. Not one word of remorse from him or any Americans including the media, individuals, and certainly not politicians. What kind of people are you ? What right do you have to lecture the rest of the world about human right and being kind to other people ?

Choekyi
What DL said and What DL wants are two completely different thing. He is an actor and a hypocrite. How can a government give up control of 24% of land area of a bunch of crazy monk like the one described by the SWISS PUBLIC TV.

Dalai Lama is seeking Tibet autonomy, not independence

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1347735.stm

Want to know the real life in Tibet
Watch the BBC clip on One year in Tibet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhW4dNISoXs

Look at the real Dalai Lama.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5sOm-uQH9Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aboblx-0zAs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1dILwsmwCQ&feature=related
Religous intolerance, violence imposed on their own people in India. 1998 video clip by Swiss TV.

For every thing there is a season, and a time for every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die;
A time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal;
A time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh;
A time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose;
A time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew;
A time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate;
A time of war, and a time of peace.
From Ecclesiastes

To this, I can add, there is a time to develop the economy, and a time to liberalize politics. The previous post asks the question is the price worth it. My answer is that in time, one will not have to choose between capitalistic development and liberal political development. In the fullness of time, China can have it all. But one must put one foot in front of another to walk.

But is "authoritarian capitalism" something to be desired? Princeton's Atul Kohli, for instance, makes a pretty convincing argument that S. Korea had the opportunity to become a high-growth economy precisely because its leadership was insulated from the societal demands that go along with democratic governance. But S. Korea under authoritarian rule was not a wonderful place to be, especially if you were at the bottom of the economic order.

So is the supression of individual rights worth it? Is the arbitrary jailing of dissenters (in principle, not just in practice) worth it? Is growth at any and all costs the only choice? I certainly don't have the answer, but it is worth considering the trade-offs.

Many will answer "YES, it is worth it!" , and -- due to their positions in society -- are unlikely to be the ones who will have the boot up in their faces.

So, is this the future you want? And, if so, what kind of society will you be?

Q: "To Ronald: Do you really believe there is a form of government in today's world that is better than America's? (the inherent inefficiency and polarization included)"

A: There is the suspicion that authoritarian capitalism is not merely a reminder of our past, but a sign of the future.

http://www.iht.com/bin/printfriendly.php?id=13344398

Do you have anything of value to contribute to the discussion, Ronald? Honestly.

To Hamilton:
Your question is so naive. Just like asking a proud father whose child is smartest ? LOL.
The American system create an imperial government with the biggest army against imaginary enemies and the biggest budget deficit of mankind. I just do not know how long can it last.
What goes around, comes around. I hope that the military-industrial complex runs out of enemy. That will spell the end of the American Empire.

Hamilton,

You make a good point: we are all "sinners", in the sense that all societies and systems of governance routinely fall short of their ideals. However, arguing over principles does matter, and sometimes, we cannot all just get along. While acknowledging our shortcomings and failures, we can still stick up for what we believe in. I expect this applies to all involved here.

Despite the claims of the more deluded here, no one person or society possesses anything approaching "truth". Argument, though, undertaken in good faith, can sometimes shed a bit of light.

Clearly most of the bloggers here are educated and the information presented are by and large facts.

To Ronald: Do you really believe there is a form of government in today's world that is better than America's? (the inherent inefficiency and polarization included)

To those who fall for Bush's propaganda about human rights and democracy: Do you pay any attention to the human suffering in the numerous Latin American, South American, African, East Eurpoean, and Asian countries with "democratically" elected governments?

To the pro-Tibetan: Is it really in the best interest of the Tibetans to inisist on virtual independence?

To fellow Americans: Do we have real problems with races, drug, greed, ignorance, arrogance...

If we read our Bibles, Torahs, or Korans, we will all come to the realization that we are just a bunch of sinners pointing fingers at each other.

I am sure you can come up with a few more examples there, Ronald. But what is your point? That democratically elected leaders are more prone to committing atrocities?

More importantly, is majority rule the same thing as democracy? Or does democracy require a set of institutions to deserve the name? You sling around the term "democracy" quite freely, but I don't think you have any substantive understanding of the concept.

As I can remember, Hilter was democratically elected under the same circumstances. One US ambassador and even King of England praised Hilter and called him a very nice guys until the war broke out.

Raoul:
you keep bringing up the case of the former Yugoslavia. Have you considered that the extended period of authoritarianism in Yugoslavia is actually to blame for what happened under Milosevic?
All I know that under authoritarian government, Yugoslavia was a country. When democracy came, Milosevic came to power under nationalist fever. Was it stirred up by the west or home growth ? May be you can answer the question. The we-can-do-better-without-them feeling starts gathering steam, all hell broke loose. I do not know how you can blame that on the former system.

The problem with Dalai followers is to equal Dalai Lama to Buddhism. He is just a wolf in sheep skin. My point was if Share Stone just repeat what she heard from Dalai in private, then we may as well compare him to Hilter. Sharon Stone, being a close friend of Dalai, may as well convey the true feeling of Dalai behind close doors. Have you heard any comment from Dalai about Sharon Stone's statement. Remember, a lot of the dead are Tibetans. I am glad I hit a nerve. The so-called Dalai lovers can find their feeling hurted. LOL. I thought you guys are so civilized that you would not get anger. Hilter was regarded as a nice guy before we found out about concentration camp. I just wonder who Dalai really is behind that mask of his.

Ronald, are you saying that the Dalai Lama is in some way similar to Hitler, or Milosevic? How so? Don't you think that is a stupid comparison?

Moreover, you once again prove yourself the King of Oversimplification. Your logic is as follows: Milosevic was democratically elected; Milosevic is a murderer; therefore democratically elected leaders are murderers.

Also: you keep bringing up the case of the former Yugoslavia. Have you considered that the extended period of authoritarianism in Yugoslavia is actually to blame for what happened under Milosevic? Specifically, by merely repressing dissent, and refusing to build a truly independent press or other democratic institutions, the leaders of Yugoslavia left their country totally unprepared for any kind of free political contestation. So when political liberalization occurred, the results were predictably disastrous. It was the idiocy of leaders who believed that the state's "strong hand" cured all problems that F'd up that country.

So, yes, free speech and democracy (concepts about which you do not appear to have any degree of understanding) are important.

"Whatever happened to religion in China?"

Buddhist temples are popular all over China.

The disaster was a random act of nature, and does'nt differentiate between innocent or guilty, good or bad.

Even the churches in Sichuan were not spared the destruction.

Whatever happened to religion in China? Seems that only yesterday the lamas where protected and revered... what happened to the symbiotic relationship they once held, where the Lamas were advisors to the emperors and cared for the teaching of the population in the arts and sciences? was all that part of history lost in the cultural revolution? I guess when the people of China got disconnected from spirit they took a hatred for the people of tibet. They suddenly saw them as backwards and supersticious, in need of liberation from their terrible feudal ways. I guess big sister china lost it's vision and needed to be shaken into realizing what a living planet can do if her plans for properity are not followed. Guess what, brutal, totalitarian control is not part of it. If it was, nature could impose it on it's most 'independant' species. So realize when you depend on nature and help her produce, nothing is lacking.

Are the money donations actually getting to the people in Sichuan? I used to hope so but now I'm not so sure...

http://www.teachabroadchina.com/china-earthquake-donation-money/

All religion starts with good intention. It turns ugly when it is manipulated by politcians whether it is Islam or Christian etc. If that is what the view of Dalai is about China, there is no point of talking to him. He put up a good face for PR. The real Dalai is what freightens me. Ask people who had personal contact with Hilter. They all said he was a geniunely nice guy. What it turned out, is completely different. By the way, he was elected democratically so was the President of Serbia who is on tried for mass murder. So much so for the democratic system and freedom of speech.

It wouldn't have anything to do with the buddhist religion and how they view the world, would it? moron. perhaps it's more convenient to spout our of ignorance, hoping to ensnare others in your plight. pitiful, simply pitiful excuse for a human being.

Sharon Stone and the Dalai Lama. I bet what Sharon Stone said, came right from Dalai Lama's mouth because I saw the same comment on the web posted by Tibetan activists. Do they know or care that the quake stroke area heavily populated by Tibetans. A lot of the dead are Tibetans. Nevertheless, Beijing helps them out whether they are separatists or not. What a bunch of sick people.

Your site is excellent in the content department, but you need to update it. This type of site needs at least daily updates, or every other day at least. It has been almost 2 weeks since any type of update and I am beginning to get into the "why check" mode.

Bill

I think it is good that Chinese in Korea is being assimilated. It is good for everybody.

Chinese minority in Korea is also facing the same fate to be assimilated.

Chinese-Koreans are more nationalistic than Tibetans. Read this link and see the whole issue was resolved. Read and learn.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/IH16Ad01.html
This is a model for all the minority in China.

Get a life you guys. That has never been an Tibetan issue. That will never be one. You guys will never succeed.

Forgive the pun, but the Tibet issue is totally buried by the Sichuan issue.

Ronald,

Thank you for the link. Please, listen and learn:

That was the most hilarious youtube presentation I have ever heard. Not only do we learn that all Tibetans are "boozers" and started rioting do to the income gap between themselves and wealthier, hardworking Han Chinese, but we also paradoxically learn that all Tibetans have a "silver spoon" in their mouths due to "babying" by the Chinese government.

To top it all off, we learn that the Dalai Llama is merely a Western tool to divide China, to get Chinese to kill each other. It's all outside forces, apparently, the good old bogey man of the CCP.

Give it up, Ronald. Your employers should cut your salary for this uninspired work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG21V-JwWYs
One American voice about Tibet. Please, listen and learn.

Old American:
Using a article from Dalai Lama's personal website as a proof of him being a good personal, is very laughable. Let me quote you an article from Forbe.com outlining how ridiculous the behavior of Dalai Lama really is.
http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/04/12/china-tibet-macbain-oped-cx_lbm_0414tibetchina.html
http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/05/01/tibet-china-talks-oped-cx_lbm_0501tibet.html
That shows the inconsistency and the real intention of the so-called mid-way approach of Dalai Lama.
Those article comes from a westerner with an objective of protect Tibetan culture, not from an article from Dalai Lama's own website.

Old American:
Using a article from Dalai Lama's personal website as a proof of him being a good personal, is very laughable. Let me quote you an article from Forbe.com outlining how ridiculous the behavior of Dalai Lama really is.
http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/04/12/china-tibet-macbain-oped-cx_lbm_0414tibetchina.html
http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/05/01/tibet-china-talks-oped-cx_lbm_0501tibet.html
That shows the inconsistency and the real intention of the so-called mid-way approach of Dalai Lama.
Those article comes from a westerner with an objective of protect Tibetan culture, not from an article from Dalai Lama's own website.

Surely authoritarianism can find a better spokesmen than half-educated clowns like Ronald.

Childe Ronald has a tantrum.

I am glad to hear that the government of the POC is doing so well with such an awful disaster. From what I read, they seem especially adept at utilizing the volunteer efforts of local citizens to great effect.

I think our city of New York did that well for 9/11, but not our Feds during Hurricane Katrina!

I guess most of us have a bias for our own nation and culture (I do), but I have come to believe that no society is perfect, but all have their strengths and virtues and well as their faults.

With regard to Tibet, I hope that both Hans and Tibetans can work out a win-win solution that maximizes the benefits to both sides. As for the Dalai Lamai, he does not appear to me to be a separatist, despite widespread allegations to the contrary. I offer as evidence out this article, orginally from the Washington Post: http://www.dalailama.com/news.256.htm

That said, I must admit I have never been to Tibet nor even Asia. I certainly would entertain evidence to the contrary. Also, given my own nation's unfortunate ongoing involvement in Iraq, I mean not to preach!

Best wishes to China, Tibet, and all the world's peoples.

Guys, answer this question.

what's communism, does it work?

You'll see that the answer is YES.

simple/Anonymous/Jed Clampett:

You are a bunch of idiots saying thing like this.
I have not seen anybody ask for your approval for simply doing their job in helping their own in time of need. What most of the people here especially Chinese here, is proud of how efficient their government react in comparison to Katrina from the so-called democracy(or civilized countries). The bond between Chinese people in time of need is unheard of around the world in a similiar situation. You are a bunch of self-rightous idiots deserved to have yours asses kicked.

Jed Clampett:

"..and you think they should be commended for doing what makes sense and must do in order to survive?
Wow, don't hurt yourself patting yourself in the back there pal. you seem to think that common human expression of kindness are an anomaly... have you guys been that distorted these last five decades?"
________

I was wandering when, the first plain realistic comment would came out here. What so encomiable and priceless is in a simple task that every civilized governement should keep in rescuing its own folk when in disgrace? I mean, it was just their duty at the right time, not more not less!

I also agree, Chinese got excited too much.

The balkin was a very integrated and together society under authoritarian rules for 50 years. As soon as so-called democratic reform took place, facists and racists came out of the wood work looking for publc office. The theory of we-can-do-better-wthout-them took hold and the country starts to fall apart. Very time an election took place, radicalization and polarization galvanized different ethic group. Uncle against newphews etc and etc. The same happens in Taiwan. Look at the U.S. Politican's only interest is how to win the next election instead of serving the people. Sensationalized reports from the so-called free press add fire to the mix. In India, the inefficiecy of their Government and lack of effort to reform was often called the price of democracy. The most infamous law passed in the house recently was to sue OPEC for high oil price and called the war happened in Turkey 100 years ago a genocide. Isn't that a joke. What do you call a legislative body with 13% approval rating and the same type of people keep getting elected. The Chinese governmet needs reform so is the U.S. government. Let's see how much reform will/can be done in both China and U.S. to improve the efficiency and transparency of the government in the next 20 years. There is a call in China to list the income including benefits of each public officer on the web. Isn't that something.

Ronald,

Don't do the name calling. A fist-fighting legislative body reported openly in TV is gazillion time better that a rubber stamped "people's congress!".

Corruption exists everywhere so long as the private property concept exists! Corruption without free press reporting, oversight and punishment is the problem. Remember 1989 students' main demand is a corruption-free government - you might be a sucker then.

Think thrice when you spew the immature words - you are quite a Anger Youth, you do more harm to China than good. Be cool, my friend, grow up!

Ronald,

Don't do the name calling. A fist-fighting legislative body reported openly in TV is gazillion time better that a rubber stamped "people's congress!".

Corruption exists everywhere so long as the private property concept exists! Corruption without free press reporting, oversight and punishment is the problem. Remember 1989 students' main demand is a corruption-free government - you might be a sucker then.

Thank twice when you spew the immature words - you are quite a Anger Youth, you do more harm to China than good. Be cool, my friend, grow up!

Ronald,

Haphazard comparisons of Taiwan, India and the Balkans don't really make a convincing case against democratic governance. In fact, India's slow growth rate was largely due to socialist inspired policies of the post-colonial period, not simply the country's democratic political system. Similarly, are you seriously saying that levels of corruption in Taiwan are worse than in authoritarian states...for instance, China? Finally, democratization by itself was hardly the cause of the catastrophe in the Balkans. Rather than too much democracy, the problem was the absence of strong democratic institutions.

Clearly, you don't like democracy, and that's fine. However, it might be useful to ask who exactly continued authoritarianism most benefits in China. Do the rights of those who are left behind, or bear the brunt of China's industrialization, simply not important? Do they have a voice?

Book Idiot:
Please, don't use Taiwan as a future model for China. Corruption is so rampaging in Taiwan that people laugh at it. The entire first family including the in-laws are under investigation of stealing public fund and insider trading. Fist fight in the legislature is a very common scene. The society is so polarized that threat of war from China is the only thing to stop a civil war from breaking out in Taiwan. Look at India. After fifty years of so-called democracy it is still in limpo. The society without large number of middle class who has stake in the country is destined to fail. Look at the Balkin and see how it falls apart. I said it again and again. Western democracy is good in theory but it is an over-rated political system which is condemned to inefficiency and polarization from the beginning. Go slow approach is the the best way for a developing country to move forward. It might not be exciting. However, so far so good.

Nietzsche vs Rousseau
Capitalism vs Socialism
Private property vs People's commune
Individual insurance vs Nationalized health plan
Republican vs Democrat
Rich vs Poor
US vs China

The modern day West favors individual freedom (the human nature). Thus human rights as an individual take precedence, including freedom to vote, free speech/press, property rights etc. It really is designed to benefit individual achievements, thus favoring the rich and powerful. Capitalism also changes over time to adjust (the New Deal, civil rights, etc) since 1940s to a new middle class majority is formed. However at the time of Karl Marx, there is hardly any middle class, the socially stabilizing factor. Conmmunism or socialism took over China precisely because the vast majority then was poor peasants and the wealth was accummulated in just a handful of people.

China is experiencing a transformation - to painfully grow the middle class majority rapidly without losing social stability. Many did get rich not because of mere back door nepotism in the early 80s. These people served as examples for others to follow. Nowadays Chinese is perhaps more capitalistic than American. When there is another 300 million people out of poverty and farming/migrant work, China will enjoy the benefits of having a middle-class majority. While most Chinese are still poor, China favors "collective rights" to maintain the social order to get things done quickly. The rapid mobilization of resources to earthquake zone is a proof of the efficiency of this model. The democratic India on the other hand suffers the polarizing rift between the classes after years of development.

John Pomfret's excerpt suggests that there would be a human face behind CCP, and there would be hope. CCP leaders are also human. Quite a few sent their children to study in the elite schools in the West (by their scholastic merit), thinking about their influence. The other way around is not true (except Mr. Rudd himself). The current Premier Wen was at the Tianmen Square in 1989 accompanying then Premier Zhao, who apologized to the protesting students. Mr Wen survived the political purge of Zhao, surreally similar to the case of the late leader Deng Xiaoping in the cultural revoltution.

China needs time to mature. However, China is not US's problem. In fact, China-made goods with low price is a relief for the recession-leaning US economy. US is US's problem. USA did not lose to China, it lost in competition to Japan, Germany and perhaps Korea/Sweden/Finland too. Just count the cars your drive,the mobile phone you use, the LCD TVs you watch. The low-wage job loss is not a threat to the US, the threat is the loss of high-paying jobs and the ability to re-invent ourselves and care for our children properly. To regain competitiveness is the key to US's future - attracts the best brain in the world to live in a religiously tolerant, socially harmonious, safe, clean and productive environment.

Thinking about how competitive China could be if democracy finally comes like today's Taiwan. So limit your blogging time, study something useful!

Every day I stand in further awe at the wisdom of mother earth. While on it's surface the earthquake seems like a calamity of devastating proportions, a deeper look reveals a strengthening of the Chinese people and a return to civility.
While the loss of life and splitting of families going on is heartbreaking, it is preferable that earth take their spirits in such a way to losing them to the misery of war and starvation. This is why the ancient wise men, to a man, revile war. It benefits no one, harms all, including the victors.
The Chinese people are showing the tenacity and resolve they have always been known for. Despite their governments restrictions, they are moving en masse to the region to help in any way they can. They are proving that they don't need government to tell them what to do or how to behave with kindness.
Up to now, disease has been kept in check and the injured and infirmed are being taken care of, despite the dismall conditions and evident lack of resources. This is a testament to the people's diligence and culture of cleanliness... even though the extreme poverty of recent times would make observers think otherwise.
People from everywhere are sending in donations and merchandise to help with the relief efforts as well as donating their time, regardless of ethnicity, social status or income levels. This is the people recognizing they are people first and 'members of their clique' last. The people will come to realize that their differences are a virtue rather than a point of contention. The false conflicts engendered and cultivated by a government intent on maintaining the populace busy contending with each other rather than paying attention to their political class and their misdeeds.
While it is still early to ascertain with any degree of confidence what the final results will be for the Chinese people, it is evident that the Chinese people will be made stronger by this event while their oppressor becomes weaker. The people are starting to recognize their worthiness to themselves and each other, while realizing the way government has taken advantage of them... as evidenced in the lack of caring for schoolchildren as compared to their own well being. Also being exposed and highly resented, are the local beaurocrats collusion in corruption. I hope the Chinese people will gather the momentum of goodwill and compassion engendered by the disaster and use it to form a better government more dedicated to the well being of the whole rather than the overindulgence of a well connected minority.

Ya, Mr. Pomfret,

It's week from your last post. You aren't updating!

If there's nothing you can write about the quake, write something else. Don't let us wait too much.

Although that conclusion usually comes after a cogent counter-argument is offered...I am more than willing to agree to disagree with you.

Let's agree to disagree.

uhh...and your point is what?

Yeah, we heard that way back during the Vietnam War.

Communism is bad.
Democracy is good.

Today Vietnam is still communist.

The earthquake and huge loss of life in China is a tragedy, and the central government seems to be doing its best to help the victims. This is all admirable.

But when posters here use this tragedy and the laudable response of China's citizens to the suffering of their fellow human beings as an excuse to extol Chinese greatness...it is a bit pathetic.

In this vein, Jiaming states: "The bottom line is only the societies with the right attitudes can be winners. Americans had them 100 years ago, so did the Japanese, and the Chinese have them now. So what are the attitudes? being responsible for oneself and don't play victim."

Unfortunately, the Chinese government and many, if not most, people in China are absolutely convinced of their impeachable status as long-standing international "victim" -- this sense of grievance so deeply ingrained in most people's minds as to be beyond questioning. So I don't see how China today exhibits this "right attitude" that is the alleged key to success.

More importantly, Jiaming dismisses the role of the average person's role in political decision-making. She points out, probably accurately, that people are "foolish and greedy". In fact, the framers of the long-standing democratic institutions in the US made the same argument! (funny thing.) And so they attempted to create institutions by which these "foolish and greedy" people could come to binding decisions about political life in a way that moderated their foolishness and greediness. Certainly, the system is messy, and imperfect.

But what these same 18th Century innovators saw equally clearly was that unconstrained rulers would -- sooner or later -- become equally foolish and greedy when left unchecked, and could do far greater harm than these average people Jiaming seems to revile.

Authoritarian may work for China, and may indeed lead to the heights of greatness about which some of the more scary proto-fascist posters here wax so eloquently. But it is at the cost of disenfranchsing, in principle and in act, a large portion of China's population (say...farmers and workers), who -- it's safe to say -- aren't posting here on this blog.

This extended blog debate seems to have mimicked the operation of a centrifuge, whipping away all intelligent comment, leaving only the most base.

There is an inhuman troll here, that does'nt value human life.

Ignore the troll!

and you think they should be commended for doing what makes sense and must do in order to survive?

Wow, don't hurt yourself patting yourself in the back there pal. you seem to think that common human expression of kindness are an anomaly... have you guys been that distorted these last five decades?

Chinese people donating blood, volunteering their time and effort to help the earthquake survivors.

Reminds you of the same act of human kindness during September 11, 2001 in New York, does'nt it?

Pomfret,

This and the one previous pathetic entry are all you can produce for more than one week after one of the most tragic and heroric event in China in recent history? Here is a friendly advice, you are not cut out for this job? Please quit NOW!

DJ

Jed Clampett:
Wow. I guess I owe you an apology. You are redder than the red guards of cultural revolution. Good Luck to you. I really respect your opinion.

The Chinese government has certainly won a lot of respect for its handling of this natural disaster. In the end, people want to see what you do, not what you say. People like Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao may not have the "talent" to give fancy speeches like the politicians in democracies like India and the US, whose only talent is probably just that, but they have proven themselves worthy of being leaders of a rising power by actions. This is proof again that there is no perfect system for any societies.

When China and Russia got very ideological about their Communist form of government, they failed. Now the democratic countries think that their form of government is far superior than anything else and are being very arrogant and dogmatic about it. Every time I see democratic politicians yell "the people have spoken" or something equally vague and people cheer, I can't help but shake my head.

If the "people" are so smart and so righteous, then we wouldn't see everybody diving into the housing market to buy obscenely overpriced homes just to see their life savings evaporate, and there wouldn't be all these bubbles bursting one after another. Let's face it. The "people" are neither smart nor righteous. Most people are in fact foolish and greedy. They only listen to what they want to hear, which is exactly what elected politicians keep feeding them. The only thing that the "people" get out of a democratic government is the fact that they have no one to blame but themselves. But of course democratic citizens blame their government and others more than anybody else in the world.

The bottom line is only the societies with the right attitudes can be winners. Americans had them 100 years ago, so did the Japanese, and the Chinese have them now. So what are the attitudes? being responsible for oneself and don't play victim. Chinese people are being very strong when facing overwhelming adversities, not only natural.

Let me tell you something about the mindset of the so-called civilized countries (Sometimes, it was called the world). One CIA specialist was interviewed by one Canadian Journalist on TV about operation in Iraqi and war against terrorist. He said without a brink of an eye, " We are hired to protect Americans and America interest only. If we can, we might protect our allies. That is it" The Canadian Jouranlist was so stunted that he was lost for words for 1 minutes before he could manage to change to another subject. With that in mind, the mighty American Army, congress and Bush administration managed to create a war in Iraq and ruined millions of lives of Iraqi without showing an remorse or regret. When asked about the war, Bush repeatedly said he will do it again because it will save American lives. That is it ? What about Iraqi ? Nobody cares; not the administration; not the media; not the public. What it means is if the war works out, it will prove that Americans are always right. If it does not, it is too bad for the Iraqi. The same goes with the natives of Diego Garcia. If you want to know why anybody wants to go to China after it has been so badly described in the Western media, ask Mr. Pomfret. He is the one who ridicules everything that is Chinese and runs a tour company to China. I guess it is anything for a buck. One thing that stunts me is that Americans/British was brought up with the thought of entitlement. Americans/British were born to lead the world. Everybody who thinks otherwise, are evil. That is why most Western Journalists look down other culture and people outside their sphere. That kind of disgusting behavior turns my stomoch upside down. I remember one time, one American soldier was arrested in Okinawa for raping a local girl. Next week, the Time magazine cover story was about how much Okinawa girl loves to frequent local bar with American GI. The main story behind all this was that Local girls love American GI over local men because Americans are bigger. So they deserves to be raped. One month later, another American GI got caught in the bedroom of a 8 years girl, trying to rape her. His excuse was that he mistook her for his girl friend. Front page news in the US was about the family of GI protesting the legal system of Japan. One senator even complained that with Japan constantly complaining about behavior of American GI, they may have to move the front line back to American soil. No remorse. No appologze. It is the fault of Japan again. If you want to see real pollution and corruption, go to India, shining example of democracy at work. UN just issued a warning today, that 2 millions children in Indian could die of malnutrituon even after 10 years of 8%+ growth in GDP. There was a story on Canadian TV about Eron. It described in detail how the executives of Eron with the blessing of SEC and auditors who are supposed to be the watchdogs, managed to twist the financail reports so that they can pocket millions of dollars while the investors and employees of Eron lost their life savings and pensions. I guess that is ok because it happens in a so-called civilized country. Eron is not a isolated case. Yesterday, the US government announced the 10th times of meat recall in millions of pound. It didn't make it to the headline of most media. I guess it is ok because, it happens in a so-called civilized country. I just wish you people can look at yourself first before you lecture other country about human right and democracy. The example you set is nothing but a joke. China will move on and forward in the way they choose. Chinese will change the behavior of their government not because of the pressure from the West. You guys will like to think otherwise because it will make it look good. What a bunch of idiots.

I guess you assume I must be Brit or US and think I must be ashamed of belonging to one of these groups since they have done this. You fail to realize, I am a member of the human race and it is a shame that anyone is doing this, period.

But if you want to get technical... doesn't it embarrass you that your precious CCP government, even knowing what those other governments are like and have done, is still willing to sell out the labour of your poorest people for pennies on the dollar to these pirates of humanity's wealth? do you think it makes your leaders any different than the others when they all profit from the enslavement of the proletariat? What exactly was the promise of the CCP towards it's workers in the revolution, do you remember? what was the purpose of the cultural revolution? do you remember what was suppossed to be achieved with that? what do YOUR history books say? Just curious.

FOOL!!!

Jed Clampett:
I guessed you chose to ignore my post about the civilized behavior of Britian and US as late as 1980+. (Not 100 years ago).
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/JD17Aa01.html
The poor islanders at Diego Garcia was treated like door mate by the so-called civilized countries. Douglas Feith could not even show a little bit of remorse for what they have done to other people. I guess that is the standard of your civilized behavior.
This is very disgusting.

I just watch the most sinful behavior any human can have. Douglas Feith, the infamous under-secretary of Defense under Rumsfeld appeared on Daly Show to promote his book " War and Decision".
He is trying to make profit out of the misery inflicted by him on millions of Iraqi people and thousands of US soldiers. And he even got the gut to laugh about the mistake he and the administration made. Unfortunately, under the current politcal system, this is the only type of people you can have in Washington. Anything for a buck. Me first. Hell with the rest of the world. What a contrast when u look at the sad faces of the Chinese Leaders at the quake zone.

what a dissapointing blog. the chinese here prefer to engage in a little mental masturbation going off on ancient history and whether or not other nations past indiscretions are enough to justify their own misdeeds and how much more evil they can be without actually accepting the evil mantle.
Then earth speaks and shakes herself and turns China from a standing dragon, spitting fire in all directions into a peacock, finding out that all it's feathers were really for decoration, not really for flying. Yet, after just a couple of days of silence and acquiecense, they now return with the same kind of absurdity and bellicosity. I think it is evident that some folks never learn, regardless of how firm and undenyiable a lesson might be. What would china need to fall back in line with civilized behaviour? should the disease afflicting her children spread like wildfire through your capital city? would anyone want to go to an olympics in a city infested with a disease that could kill their children? End your searching into the past for justification for todays transgressions, wrong is wrong regardless of the time and what others are doing or have done. Be responsible for your own deeds and misdeeds. Share the wealth, the people work hard for their few cents a day, why should the factory boss enjoy the fruits fo their labor with a big house and a fancy car when the workers can't affor to even have their own room? Party leaders should work for the people and their well being. Not to enrich themselves and the party at the expense of the workers. Make these concessions, give the Tibetans the promise of prosperity that all should enjoy and the curses befalling China shall go away as quickly as they appeared... except the earthquake damage of course, that is a gift that will engender unity if used properly, if abused and politicized, it will mean this leadership's destruction.

I hope you understand. :D

Badly needed for the homeless are enough tents and portable toilets.

Yes Wang seems to be a nice guy.

The Dalai Lama is visiting Germany right now, his words were full of criticism of China only a small sentence spoken with insincerity was mentioned about the tragedy in his homeland China. Dalai doesn't care much about Tibetan lives suffering the earthquake now since he put many to death himself when he ruled Tibet. Why hasnt Dalai Lama donate millions of his CIA money to the victims of the earth quake? Money saved from his air fare trips around the world & lavish banquets could save more lives.

The People's Liberation Army, Chinese People, volunteers, all have my support and love in this difficult time.

Political criticism has no place or reason in the face of the tremendous rescue efforts taking place with it's many successes and images of people being saved. I salute them for the bravery and sacrifices being made in the aftermath of this great tragedy.

Here is link you Tibetan activitists should read to understand what world power politic is. Human right and democratic issue are just propaganda people use to discredit your opponent.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/JD17Aa01.html
This is the story about a little known island called Diego Garcia. Inhabitants was kicked out and left only in exile in a desert island 2000 miles away from their home with no help and assistance. Their only crime is that the mighty US army wants to use their home as a air and naval base to control the Middle East. There is a huge prison camp (or concentration camp) there. Read this link in detail and find out whether you still have stomach to lecture other country in terms of human right and democracy. What a bunch of idiots. Dalai Lama should do their people a favor by not giving them false hope that he will one day come back and Tibetans will be the richest persons on earth.

I agree with the people who say that China is together and is doing a much better job than America during Hurricane Katrina. There were soldiers with guns and armed vehicles during the aftermath of the hurricane whereas in China the only thing the soldiers are carrying are shovels and rescue equpiment. To all of you who continously insult China and are repeating your rhetoric ideas, the people in China are much more unified. People are lining up to donate blood, supplies, and money. It just makes me angry that people are still saying "thugs and goons". Considering America is doing the same thing in Iraq... Just how many people have died there? How many civilians? So please stop insulting China and show some compassion.

It is nice to see such a high placed official in the Chinese Communist Party that was once responsible for bringing democratic elections in their rural villages. Wang Zhenyao seems to be quite a patriotic Chinese citizen.

And so many Chinese people seem to be following his example and helping their countrymen during this natural disaster.

They set a high example for the world to follow. Such a better example than in New Orleans where people were basically put into a police state. Where black booted machine gun toting police would send people away from their towns because they were undesirable refugees trying to escape the floods in New Orleans.

It seemed to take USA federal officials weeks to understand the size and scope of the disaster in New Orleans.

The Chinese started mobilization of their federal workers in hours.

I would like to see stronger building codes and enforcement in China and the USA to help prevent the loss of life in the future. But I understand these rural areas in China are just starting to develop. They are like the USA was in the 1950s. We still have many buildings in quake prone areas that are not up to code standards in the USA. Including hospitals and schools. But without funding these public places are finding it difficult to seismically retrofit their structures.

Let this disaster in China be a lesson to us in the USA on how we can improve our readiness for our next disaster that is sure to strike in the future.

I am not a member of CPP. However, the only way out of the mess in Tibet, is to wait. Unfortunately, Tibetan activists only interests in the public opinion of the Western countries (which is arrogantly called world opinion). They succeed in alienating the most important part of their movement; public opinion of the Chinese people. If you think you can bend the will of the Chinese people by playing the tune of Western media, think again. Ask the Indian government what they think about independent movement within their own country. By the way, blond hair, blue eyes activists out-numbers the total population of the Tibetan people inside and outside of Tibet. Why? The whole agenda is already hijacked by Western government. This is about who is going to direct how the world is going to go for the next 100 years. Annual budget of the so-called Tibetan government is US$200 miln. They only have 100,000+ people to support in India. That means their annual income per capital is four times of that of India. Where do they get their money from ? Dalai Lama and his bunch are nothing but idiots.

I am very sad to see that even after such a disgraceful disaster the "thugs & goons of CCP regime" are still in action.

I deeply feel empathy for the unlucky chinese who lost their relatives and homes in the tragedy but my opinion on the CCP regime is unmovable: EVIL!

Some Chinese(CCP members?) often say in Western medias : "Give Tibet another 30 years after Dalai Lama dies. The situation will change. He is just an idiot."
I think that CCP wants Time not Communication. Tibet situation will change for CCP and against Tibetans. But I believe Tibetans and people of the world are not idiots. (Unfortunately to Chinese and Tibetans, the Earthquake might give CCP more time. poor Tibetans.. lucky Hu Jintao grown on Tibetan's blood after 1988)

AFTER many Chinese wrote about "Tibetan Unrest in March" in Western medias, which country these countries(Vietnam, Phillippines, Japan, Korea and Mongol) dislike most?
When I read Chinese's comments in Western medias about Tibet, "Self Destruction" came to my mind.

Pictures from Times about Chinese military in action. Just shovel and supplies in hand and no weapons; what a contrast to military action in New Orlean after Katrina. Anybody who still thinks Chinese military are nothing but thugs, and US military are humanitarians, has to revisit their logic.
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1779418_1660747,00.html

Blaming the Llhasa riot on Han Chinese is the same the same as blaming anti-Jews riot in Europe on the Jewish people. Anti-chinese riot happened in South-east Asia, America and in some African countries recently. Try to compromise with that.

The riot in Lhasa is not about Tibetans against Han Chinese and their policy. It is about Tibetans against non-Tibetans. Read this article.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120653962238265391.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Jealously is the root of it. There was an article from New York times couple of years ago Headline
"Dalai Lama is increasingly regarded more as religous leader than political leaders in Tibet"
The reporter interviewed two persons, a female school teacher and a monk.
The female school teacher said "If Dalia Lama comes back, where do we get money to build road, hositpal and schools"
The monk interrupted immediately and said "Dalai Lama has to come back and we will be independent."
There was another article in New York times about a Tibetan Taxi drivers who said Tibetans will be the richest people on earth if Dalia Lama comes back and kick out all the non-Tibetans.
I wonder where he got that idea. How do you compromise with people with idea like that.
Race is not the issue here about Tibet and Uyghur. It is the separatist movement that is in question. If a Han Chinese involves in violent movement of Tibetan and Uyhur independent movement, they will be treated the same way. If you have any more question about this, ask the Indian government about their policy towards the separatist movements within their border. There is no referendum or comprise and Indian has more separatist movements (some are very violent) than China ever has. Nobody has proposed or pressured them to compromise. The reason I guess is that CIA does not get involved in those movements.
The return of Dalai Lama will enbolden the nationalist instinct of Tibetans and exacerbate the situation. Give it another 30 years after Dalai Lama dies. The situation will change. He is just an idiot.

Study Warned of China Quake Risk Nearly a Year Ago:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/pf/79687188.html

Respect amazing Chinese people said :
(1) The Chinese people's behaviors in this tragedy are also remarkable.. They tried to help each other. I respect them.
(2) Stop the ridiculus Tibet dabate for NOW. I don't see any Chinese ask about the race of victims before helping them.
(3) -An American citizen.

(1) I also agree with you in that point.
(2) I hope that we won't see any Chinese(esp. CCP) ask about the race before making and performing their policies as we have seen in Tibet and Uyghur before.
(3) I wonder what is your race.

Ronald said : I said it again and again. The Tibetans problem comes from the fact that Dalai Lama made unrealistic demand... Remember, there are 1.3 billions Chinese firmly behind their government on this.

In Wikipedia : "Compromise" is a concept of finding agreement through Communication, through a mutual acceptance of terms — often involving Variations from an original goal or desire.
1.3 billions Chinese..
I think you had better subtract 0.2 billions Ethnic Minorities if they don't want to be called Chinese.

I do not know how you say about Chinese government and Americans. Here are the contrast between the two disasters; Katrina in New Orlean and Earth quake in Sichan.
1. Within 4 hours, Chinese preimer is on his way to Sichan. It took two weeks for Bush to tour the area.
2. 100,000 soldiers was sent with shovel and supplies on their back within 2 days and no weapons. American soldiers was sent after long delay, with mainly weapons drawn ready to shot any rioters.
3. Chinese Preimer with tears in his eyes and blood flowing down his arms, pledges to take care of every victims. He himself has worked day and night for three days. How about Bush.
I guess communists have a good side too. Doesn't it.

A paramilitary man who was sent to protect the olympic flame and was called thug and animal, has just helped to pull out a German tourist from the debris. He was the one called thugs by a German politician. A Han Chinese who was attacked in Tibet earlier by rioters when on vacation, is now helping to save Tibetan lives. A Han Chinese reporter trapped in a car damaged from falling rocks, was saved by a Tibetan. That is humanity at its best. Any political debate about Tibet is ridiculous. There are a lot Tibetan living in the quake zone. Any Tibetan activists celebrating the death and destruction of this disaster, should think twice before they open their mouth.

What China is doing to help her citizens during this disaster is 1,000 times better that what America did during the Hurricane Kartira. No matter what caused the buliding collapse, the Chinese people and their government is doing their best to save lives.

The Chinese Amry is very admirable. I remember our troops patrolled on the streets of New Orleans like they were on the streets of Iraq, fully armed, with machine guns and armed cars, watched everyone close to them as enemies, and never tried give a hand to any victims.

The Chinese people's behaviors in this tragedy are also remarkable. There are no looting, no raping, no robery. The disaster causes chaos, but the people are self-organized. They tried to help each other. I respect them.

Stop the ridiculus Tibet dabate for now. I don't see any Chinese ask about the race of victims before helping them.

Publicity seekers Mia Farrow, Richard Gere, George Clooney, Stephen Spielberg, Angelina Jolie, Uma Thurman, Nicolas Sarkozy of France, Angela Merkel of Germany, Nancy Pelosi of USA, and Mike Lafferty of CNN has suddenly became very quiet. These self proclaimed righteous so and so lauded human rights as central to their cause but when it really comes down to helping victims in Chinese earthquake their inaction shows their utter contempt towards Chinese people. Bunch of cowards.

And you, all the China haters here, based on your behaviors in recent days, you don't have any morality to blame anyone else on 'human rights'...you are the one careless about human lives.

To all the Chinese here: at this moment, all the men on this planet with real human heats are standing with you. Just leave trolls along. Our thoughts are with you.

-An American citizen.

'YU:

I just read the article and I found it has a pretty positive view of China. I was surprised some peopel thought the article was offensive.'

I don't feel offensive. I just can not help myself to be curious about the mindset of Pomfret since it is too strange.

You have to be amazed at the wisdom of mother earth.
Before, China was making all these bellicose overtures via the PLAs disinformation campaign, now it has to address concerns within it's own borders and with it's people's realization of the local politicians failure which has been exposed in shoddy workmanship. I am heartened by the fact that they are responding in a much better manner than the burmese junta. We should definately help our chinese friends, they will need much to recover from this. I just hope that the government will understand the need for cooperation and pluralism in society as it exists in nature.

Do you see what I was talking about now? or do you choose to still ridicule and ignore? 'i hope you understand' :)

I said it again and again. The Tibetans problem comes from the fact that Dalai Lama made unrealistic demand.
1. Want to take control of greater Tibetan area which is more than 24% of land area of China
2. Total control of everything, a de facto independent.
3. Migration control. In other word, all non-Tibetans in that area will be cleaned out.
No matter what he says and does right now, it is just tactic detour in order to achieve his utimate goal. His prime minister says it again and again that those three points are not negotiable.
Think about it. How in the world, can he think he can force China to give in.
He is that stupid and he really believe he can achieve it. Remember, there are 1.3 billions Chinese firmly behind their government on this.
Stupid always does what stupis do.
Any other argument is pointless.
Dalai Lama is not going home as political leader and the so-called exile government will be in exile for the next 1000 years.

jiaming said : "Totally agree. I always disagree with the China's policy of making the Dalai Lama the enemy... Only through compromises from both sides can create a long-lasting, happier Tibet (and happier Asia)."

In this point, I totally agree with you.

A Tibetan wrote:
When we start to acknowledge each other's pain and humanity, then I think understanding and reconiciliation will be possible.

Totally agree. I always disagree with the China's policy of making the Dalai Lama the enemy. Even if he did lead the revolt against Beijing, there is no reasons why he can't stay in China as a religious leader. The leaders of the break-away Confederacy during the American Civil War did not get harsh punishment from Washington after the war. It was very important to the process of healing in the Southern states.

I also think that the Tibetan exile government should probably consider a realistic negotiation with China. Assuming the other side is evil (by Tibetan exiles or Chinese) will only justify more evil and create more suffering. The tragedy of the Israelis and Palestinians should not happen in Tibet. Only through compromises from both sides can create a long-lasting, happier Tibet.

ASIAN wrote:
jiaming said : "I really don't see the point of verbally trashing China over and over again day after day with absolutely nothing accomplished. Garbage in garbage out."
What are you doing Here? I think that if you really love your country(CCP?), you should be in Sichuan not Here.

Ha ha ha... thanks for reinforcing my previous statement that most of the anti-China posters are emotional and full of nothing but rhetoric.

I just read the article and I found it has a pretty positive view of China. I was surprised some peopel thought the article was offensive.

I just read the article and I found it has a pretty positive view of China. I was surprised some peopel thought the article was offensive.

Alright Lauwei, tell me where do you see the "endless stream of violent words and and insults" ? And what do you mean by "you reveal your true character to all of us here"? What kind of racist comment is this? Who is insulting who here?

I am deeply saddened to see the death and destruction caused by the earthquake in Sichuan province. Especially heartbreaking are the scenes of parents grieving over the bodies their beloved only child. My heart goes out to the Chinese people in this hour of need. As a Tibetan, my heart was also broken the recent brutal crackdown on Tibetans by the Chinese goverment following the demonstrations against Chinese rule. Even though the scale of the two tragedies are vastly different, the fact of deep human suffering and anguish is common to both situations. Just as I feel the pain of the Chinese people, I hope the Chinese people can also identify with the pain and suffering that Tibetan people went through because of the crackdown ordered by the Government (deliberate, not an act of nature). When we start to acknowledge each other's pain and humanity, then I think understanding and reconiciliation will be possible. (Just want to clarify that I, in no way, am trying to minimize the magnitude of the earthquake catastrophe - in terms of death, destruction and injury, this a major disaster).

All the Westerners do here is insult day after day after day... and endless stream of violent words and and insults. You reveal your true character to all of us here. Don't stop, keep it up.

GrandPa Wen is doing the rounds, consoling the victims, with President Hu and the Dalai Lama nowhere in sight.

All the Chinese do here is insult day after day after day... and endless stream of violent words and and insults. You reveal your true character to all of us here. Don't stop, keep it up.

When Wen Jiabao said to a rescued and orphaned girl "Don't worry. We will take care of you. Don't worry. We will take care of you..", tears came to my eyes..
I think If Hu Jintao grown on Tibetan's blood would change his policies on Tibet and say to Tibetans as Wen said, Not only Tibetans but also People of the world could be Chinese's friends.

Ronald said : "According to government news, one township, which was heavily populated by minority such as tibetans, was crushed. 2,000 out of 10,000 people survived. Painful reality."
I guess that the disappearing issue "Tibetan Unrest in March" in media and people's mind of the world could be more Painful reality to Tibetans.

jiaming said : "I really don't see the point of verbally trashing China over and over again day after day with absolutely nothing accomplished. Garbage in garbage out."
What are you doing Here? I think that if you really love your country(CCP?), you should be in Sichuan not Here.

Biased media said : "Once again, the biased American media is portraying China as the bad guy."
If you are really interested in foreign medias, you know well that ASIAN medias are portraying CCP(not China) as the bad guy more than Western medias do.

Anyway, I really hope that rescue operation will go on smoothly.

Wang Zhenyao and the Chinese government has done terrific job this time around although the death toll continues to rise. I am in China at the moment and the waiting game here is just torturous. Here is a recent post about the earthquake.

http://www.teachabroadchina.com/china-earthquake-aftermath-the-waiting-game/

Pomfret looks like a troll.

When the wrold was codemn China about Tibet and the Olympic torch, Pomfret had different opinions

When the world are supporting China for the earthquake releif, Pomfret again has different opinions

Also lots of other problems

...Pomfret is always showing off his 'different' thoughts. This is the definition of a troll.

Well, I feel Mr. Pomfret is trying to tell us that the consequence of natural disaster, or should say the ability to manage relief work on natural disaster will determine the fate of the government. of course, it's kind of right. especially if you check out the last two disaster happened monthly ago, the February's Snow Storm and the Railway collision early this month, which eventually lead to the resignation/demote of the minister in charge.

But feel Mr. Pomfret is still looking at the event in a kind of McCarthyism mind. It just prove Mr. Pomfret still got a lot space to improve, which is a good news to him in my way of thinking.

I wish the biased Western media would just stop its China bashing! I mean, look at the negative way the Western media is portraying China's earthquake relief efforts. What bigots! Do you need any more evidence of how biased the Western press is against China??

Once again, the biased American media is portraying China as the bad guy, this time in its disaster relief efforts! Oh, wait a minute, it isn't. Hmm...well, American media is still biased against China. That's my stand and I'm sticking to it!

Beijing tore down old houses to build Olympic facilities.

Now the Ministry of Civil Affairs must do China a great favor by reinforcing or replacing all the unsafe buildings who are potential deathtraps during a natural disaster.

We should hire him to be head of FEMA!

I found that most of the anti-China people who comment here are uninformed, emotional hotheads with nothing but rhetoric. I really don't see the point of verbally trashing a country over and over again day after day with absolutely nothing accomplished. Garbage in garbage out.

According to government news, one township, which was heavily populated by minority such as tibetans, was crushed. 2,000 out of 10,000 people survived. Painful reality.

I'd like to learn more about "the artificial famine which the Chinese Communist Party created during the Great Leap Forward" you just mentioned. Who faked what? And for what purpose?

Perhaps they will realize that the Lord of Change has awakened and is ready to force change upon them whether they like it or not. the question is, will they bend and do that which is necessary to protect creation or selfishly continue to vie for complete control over a pluralistic nation.

Amazing. John Pomfret has reprinted the life of Mr. Wang, and the life of Mr. Wang is a list of scars imposed on the Chinese nation by the Chinese Communist Party -- from the artificial famine which the Chinese Communist Party created during the Great Leap Forward to the shut down of the schools during the Cultural Revolution to the kind of slimy tricks which the Chinese Communist Party played on his domestic life. Nonetheless, a Communist with the apt screen name 'Thugs And Goons' marches in to praise the Chinese Communist Party for its heroic disaster relief and say a free China could never deal with a disaster as well.

Can any of you ever learn? What are you going to do next, 'Thugs And Goons?' Are you going to grab a red banner and wade into the river to stop the flood with your soaking wet bodies, the way the your government said that the Red Guards did? If the Chinese Communist Party does not pay you a salary for writing this kind of propaganda, they should; you deserve it just for the energy you spend on it.

Mr Pomfret:

Mr Wang is right. Disasters are no problem, not for Wang, not for Premier Wen, not for CCP.

When a natural disaster strikes, the expectation of the people is specific, the objective is clear, and the mission is well defined: save people's lives first, then return social and economical order to normalcy. if a dam's burst, repair it; if a building collapsed, rebuild it.

CCP thrives on organizing huge manpower on such well-defined projects, and disaster recovery is one of them. It's strictly engineering, and you may have noticed, Chinese leaders tend to come from engineering background.

On the other hand, implementing western democracy in China will entail changing political power structure, and people are still debating if such a change is really benefiting to china at all.

so of course, (western) democracy is more troublesome for Mr Wang than disaster is

Mr Pomfret:

Mr Wang is right. Disasters are no problem, not for Wang, not for Premier Wen, not for CCP.

When a natural disaster strikes, the expectation of the people is specific, the objective is clear, and the mission is well defined: save people's lives first, then return social and economical order to normalcy. if a dam's burst, repair it; if a building collapsed, rebuild it.

CCP thrives on organizing huge manpower on such well-defined projects, and disaster recovery is one of them. It's strictly engineering, and you may have noticed, Chinese leaders tend to come from engineering background.

On the other hand, implementing western democracy in China will entail changing political power structure, and people are still debating if such a change is really benefiting to china at all.

so of course, (western) democracy is more troublesome for Mr Wang than disaster is

Hmm, Mr Wang must be working behind the scenes, since we only see Mr Wen in the news.