Comments (396)

These are dangerous times to be a Tibetan folk singer.

Drolmakyi learned that when she opened the only place to listen to live music in this dusty little town perched high on the Tibetan plateau.

The 31-year-old single mother, a singer, a member of the local government council and a well-known figure around town, had grown up tending yak in the mountains and hadn't forgotten her nomadic roots. At the nightclub, she and her friends would put on swirling robes and coral beads as fat as grapes and belt out ballads aching with nostalgia for the old Tibetan ways.

"She sang from the heart," said her mother, Caito, who insists that Drolmakyi's music wasn't political. "My daughter always said we must keep Tibetan culture and language. That's all."

On March 30, Chinese authorities arrested Drolmakyi as she was hanging laundry from the balcony of her apartment. She didn't even get to say goodbye to her three children, ages 9 to 13, who were playing outside. They came back and found their mother gone.

what about the repression and all the Chinese military in Tibet? Got kudos for them, too? How about those brave Tibetan monks who, despite the fact they faced arrest, imprisonment and torture at the hands of the Chinese government, on March 10, 2008, exercised their universal political right to freely express their religious and political views. Since then, many have been killed by the Chinese military, thousands have been injured, arrested and put in jail - all for expressing their wish to practice their religion and culture without government interference. It would be really great to see some Chinese supporting their Tibetan brothers and sisters. Do you think Tibetans hurt or suffer any less the a Han Chinese? Surely you don't see any difference between the two in this regard.

I find it ridiculous that some people actually believe that it's unfair that it's harder to get a job in China if you only speak Tibetan and that the language should be imposed on everyone else. My first thought is, HA! As if. I have friends who are Tibetan and I absolutely respect them, and they agree with me on this one issue. If you go to another country, learn the language. You will get no where if you can't understand a word.

I do wish that China and Tibet can settle this whole issue peacefully, but somehow I doubt it. It's extremely pretentious of the Dalai Lama to demand that huge chunks of China be given to Tibet. There's no way that's going to happen. Considering how many Chinese live there, I seriously doubt they're going to just sit by and let the land be taken.

Khechok,

Though we are "debating" we (especially you) tend to veer toward a self speech with little relevance to what the other wrote.

For example you totally ignore what I wrote about the way the west is using the Tibet issue to bash China. In the particular example, I note that the Congressional Gold Medal has been mostly given to Americans or in exceptional cases to non-Americans who spend years of dedicated work for the world community, including for example, the Am Catholic community, such as Pope John Paul II. The Dalai Lama is narrowly focused on Tibet or is giving small seminars on his teachings, and as such does not really merit such an award. The political nature of this award is noted by many people but you seem so surprised by such observations.

There is no question to me as well as many others that the west is using Tibet issue as political but you seem totally unaware. It is almost like as if you are also one of the grassroots westerners who are so naive and gullible.

"However, I don't think PRC CCP is sincere and it's just a PR exercis to fend off pressure from the world community until the successful launch of the Olympics. Then after Olympics, I can see PRC again closing the door on meaningful dialogue."

The Dalai Lama's representatives says that they feel the Chinese reps are sincere in the last meeting.

"Let's see how this develops. There is strong reasons for pessimism. Sorry to end with this pessimistic view but until a real reform happens within PRC, I don't see a solution in sight for a long time. That's sad."

Reform will defintely help.

"So the Tibetan struggle will continue because China doesn't want to solve this problem that is mutually beneficial."

No, I think that China wants to solve this problem. In fact China has always said that they are open to discuss everything except independence.

"Look at Quebec. Quebec has so many rights including immigration that other provinces don't have."

I don't know all that much about Quebec but I suspect that they don't have the tremendous autonomy rights that the Dalai Lama is seeking.

"- Do you think Dalai Lama should insist on greater Tibet?
Yes, absolutely. It's consistent with Chinese constitution and 17 point agreement that Mao signed. Therefore, traditional Tibetan inhabited regions are in 5 provinces and 6 Prefectures all in contigous land"

I am not sure about this. The Dalai Lama has been using this argument and maybe that's one reason that little progress ahs been accomplished.

"However, It's in the best interest of the central government to check the popolution of this fragile environmentally sentive regions."

No disagreenment here, but I suspect that many Chinese business people and developers would not be happy.

"Actually we don't have to look too far to follow the 'Hong Kong model' within PRC that is one of the most successful policies that PRC has implemented which was truly a win-win-win (China, Hongkong, world). Resolving Tibet issue can be the same way."

Hong Kong has a different historical situation. It was taken away by the Opium War and when returned after 99 years the people had strong local traditions influenced by the British for almost 100 years. So it is only fair to let them continue with these traditions.

Tibet was allow a great deal of autonomy but had squandered its good status when they revolted. The Dalai Lama could have listened to the wise Panchen Lama or to the landlords and radicals. He decided to listen to the landlords. This history is not very well known except by the Dalai Lama himself and the leaders of the rebellion. The PLA lost 9000 killed (the Tibetan around 90,000). That is a huge number for a professional army fighting supposely a defenseless people. Where did the rebels get so many weapons to kill 9000 soldiers?

"I strongly believe in secular government and separation of Church and State which is also the believe of Dalai Lama. For example the office of Dalai Lama can be like other religions, where its responsible for such things as selection of reincarnation, teachings, running of monasteries etc."

So the Dalai Lama will not be part of any new Tibetan autonomous government?

"These are such a wishful thinking when the basic foundation is so much lacking eg. basic rights, laws, freedom, transparency, open debate etc. Overall, Hongkong model within PRC and eventual Taiwan is guideline to solving the Tibetan issue."

Yes.

I ma trying to have a meaningful discussion with Huang and then there are distractions such GLQ.

This GLQ is being a pest trying to provoke me with all the inaccuracies he spews out and putting out this image that he knows something about Tibet. As a matter fact, what he writes shows total lack of indepth knowledge of this issue and sounds pretty shallow. Like the saying goes little knowledge is dangerous. So stick to your Chinese revisionist history and Xinhua news if that satisfies you.

So after filtering these garbage, let me try to have a discussion with Huang. I know exactly the feeling of frustration of losing your posting.

Well I just posted this on another blog in Canada and having this good discussion. I thought I share with you my views with a few good questions this person asked me.

"Thanks for your interest and willing to discuss a few key points which is required amongst sensible Chinese and Tibetan to understand the issues from both sides. You seem sincere so I enjoy the discussions especially to a concerned Han Chinese.
Like I said your questions are valid but I don't think it's even discussed or taken seriously by the Chinese government.

However, I don't think PRC CCP is sincere and it's just a PR exercis to fend off pressure from the world community until the successful launch of the Olympics. Then after Olympics, I can see PRC again closing the door on meaningful dialogue.
It will be back to what CCP knows best, control, repression, and peace by overwhelming force.

It's not what's best for the country but ultimately the establishment i.e. TAR CCP, United Front top officials, hardliners survival and their well-being are based on fighting off their artificial enemy 'separatists' and continued with their 'people's war'.

Looks like the old Moaist Leftist have found a home on the Tibet issue and they will ensure that there is no solution.
Let's see how this develops. There is strong reasons for pessimism. Sorry to end with this pessimistic view but until a real reform happens within PRC, I don't see a solution in sight for a long time. That's sad.
So the Tibetan struggle will continue because China doesn't want to solve this problem that is mutually beneficial."

"Sorry I don't mean to avoid answering any questions. You seem sincere, so here are my responses:

Do you think that Tibetan should demand independence now?
No. Having travelled all over China and Tibet. I believe Tibet can benefit be part of China provided Tibet gets geniune autonomy and has control over cultural, religious affairs.
Look at Quebec. Quebec has so many rights including immigration that other provinces don't have.
I also think China can benefit greatly if Tibetan grievances are addressed properly. So it's a win-win solution.
You know one of the most admired Chinese leaders is, Hu Yaobang, who tried to the right the wrongs committed by CCP policies on Tibet but unfortunately he died mysteriously.

- Do you think Dalai Lama should insist on greater Tibet?
Yes, absolutely. It's consistent with Chinese constitution and 17 point agreement that Mao signed. Therefore, traditional Tibetan inhabited regions are in 5 provinces and 6 Prefectures all in contigous land. This has been recognized by the founders of modern China i.e. Sun Yat Tsen and Mao as these regions are all Tibetan ans share the unique culture, language and religion with the rest. So why not combine into one administration if culture and religion protection is indeed what the PRC constitution calls for.

- Do you think that there should be quotas from Lhasa on how many non-Tibetan Chinese should live in Tibet proper and greater Tibet?
If the policies of this Autonomous region is truly implemented where there is language law where officials have to be bilingual (Tibetan and Chinese), then movement of people within the country should be allowed. The land rights and basic laws need to there. This doesn't mean the policy to resettle people in these regions with incentives and giving them land. However, It's in the best interest of the central government to check the popolution of this fragile environmentally sentive regions.
Also as I have said, Chinese who respect the culture and specially the thousands of Chinese Tibetan buddhist are more then welcome to settle in Tibet.
I support making Tibetan areas tourist destinations for the mainland Chinese to visit. In future, it becomes as a place where the mainland Chinese can come, relax, release stress and spiritually and mentally charged.
For the increasing affluent ones, they can even buy second home recreational properties in Tibet. Wouldn't it be nice for a Chinese to go to a place and feel like you are in another country. Just like for Anglophone Canadians visiting Montreal or Quebec City.

- If the answer is yes to above question, should be a different policy on permanent residency vs. temporary residency?
I am not sure but within the same country say PRC, there should be freedom of movement but the local government in particular Tibet should have far more rights than other provinces due to historical reasons eg. look at Quebec etc.
Actually we don't have to look too far to follow the 'Hong Kong model' within PRC that is one of the most successful policies that PRC has implemented which was truly a win-win-win (China, Hongkong, world). Resolving Tibet issue can be the same way.

- Should lama/monk hold any government positions in the future Tibet (church vs. state question)?
No, unless of course a monk was elected to the office by the people in the office and not appointed due to religious titles or positions. Again this assuming that there is free election and some functioning democracy (again the current HongKong model has some).
I strongly believe in secular government and separation of Church and State which is also the believe of Dalai Lama. For example the office of Dalai Lama can be like other religions, where its responsible for such things as selection of reincarnation, teachings, running of monasteries etc.
These are such a wishful thinking when the basic foundation is so much lacking eg. basic rights, laws, freedom, transparency, open debate etc.
Overall, Hongkong model within PRC and eventual Taiwan is guideline to solving the Tibetan issue.
I hope I have answered. I would like to get your feedback/answers to your questions.
You sound like a moderate, reasonable Chinese and I know these are very difficult to digest for a lot of Chinese let alone discuss but that's only the way to resolve this problem is through dialogue.

Again the alternative for not resolving the Tibet issue is continued instability, losing Tibet completely and continued damaging China's reputation and its desire to become a super power, etc."

Posted by: Khechok | May 6, 2008 02:34 PM

"It's in DL's interest to salvage as much influence as he could and quickly negotiate a settlement and get back to Tibet."

True, DL doesn't really represent all the Tibetans. Many foreign Tibetan youth grew up in democratic countries, and don't appear to be as religious as their parents, and they may not agree with the DL's middle way.

If DL cannot control all the Tibetans, then he is not fully responsible for the riots which China is accusing him of.

Foreign Tibetans will continue to be a thorn in China's side, with or without the DL, as long as no satifactory solution is reached for Tibet.

Khechok,

My post got lost so I will do another.

"I am not sure what you want us to do. To turn-away our supporters and we just give-in. For example, you want Dalai Lama to refuse Nobel Prize, US Congress Gold Medal, Honorary Canadian Citizenship and 100 other major awards and honorary degrees conferred on Dalai Lama and his peaceful, non-violent struggle for Tibet."

Most are fine but if there is an honor that has strong poltical overtones auch as the Congressional Gold Medal, I think the Dalai should politely refuse, but he does not (I guess his opinion is that Congress's action is not political). That medal goes mostly to Americans, but when it goes to a foreigner, the Dalai Lama, who is in the middle of a fight with Beijing and with the Olympic coming up, there is a strong political element in it. Basically Congress is taking sides and the Dalai Lama is accepting the support despite the knowledge that it is not going to help in the negotiations.

Congress is also thanking the Dala Lama for a job well done in using Congress money for giving China a bad name (the money is disbursed through the Endowment for Democracy).

"The great thing about the Tibetan movement is it's really a grass-root movement with support coming from the general public in the free-world."

But why is there only a Free Tibet booth but no Free Kashmir booth of Free Gaza booth? Are grassroots people so selective?

I hope that you understand that what you call grassroots could very well be started by seed money and then promoted by a biased media. Those movements that do not have this seed money and media support will not be heard.

"I don't see any conspiracy and used by western power for what? "

You are either naive or not facing reality. Just because the west "supports" Tibetans does not mean that they are not using you as a tool to put down a rising China.

China is the winning side. Its actually better for Tibetans to team up with China than with China bashers.

It is completely dishonest (purposely stripping historical events of their proper context) to discuss anything about Tibet without first pointing out the CIA's direct role in instigating and financing the Tibetan Lamas and feudal landowning aristocratic class from starting the original armed uprise in a cynical ploy to separate from China-as part of the Cold War.

It is a well-known historical fact (not so much among the ignorant American masses) that the Dalai Lama and his militia had received tremendous amount of financial and military support from the CIA. The Dalai Lama have personally been getting a six-figure payment from the CIA on an annual basis for decades until it became a rather public and embarrassing issue that was causing a bit of a PR backlash. So the payment has now been redirected to come from the US Congress itself.

If the DL DOES represent all Tibetans, the Chinese government will have to give more concession in the negotiations. But since his believers constitute less than 20% of all Tibetans, he has much less bargaining power. Here is a quote on the 20% figure from another Pomfret comment:

(His Holyness the Dalai Lama DOES NOT represent Tibet. Our Tibetan Buddhism has 4 schools:Gelug, Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu. HH the Dalai Lama is ONE of the TWO most respected living budda of Gelug(Yellow Hat Sect), another one is Panchen Lama. HH the Dalai Lama can only represent farmers and town living Tibetans from North Central Tibet(Centered with City of Lhasa), which is about 20% of entire Tibetan population at the most. Entire South Central Tibet(Centered with City of Xigaze) worship Panchen Lama only, as well as we who are from Eastern Tibet only believe NyingMa Sect, the Red Hat.)

Another fact is that after more than 50 years the society has changed, it's mostly the older generation that are still religious. The younger, educated generation are more inclined to live a modern life and their attachment to the DL is not as strong anymore. This trend, and the advanced age, puts enormous pressure on the DL to negotiate quickly. The DL has an illusion that he has the magic power to control Tibetans, and the West also tries to believe or take advantage of this illusion. Actually , if the DL goes back to Tibet for sometime and have a feel, he'll definitely be disappointed.

It's in DL's interest to salvage as much influence as he could and quickly negotiate a settlement and get back to Tibet. This way he can still help keep some traditions going(assume that's his intention). Otherwise, his influence will diminish pretty fast as Tibet ( and west china) develops quickly in the next decade. He will be a forgotten man in 20 years time.

If the DL DOES represent all Tibetans, the Chinese government will have to give more concession in the negotiations. But since his believers constitute less than 20% of all Tibetans, he has much less bargaining power. Here is a quote on the 20% figure from another Pomfret comment:

(His Holyness the Dalai Lama DOES NOT represent Tibet. Our Tibetan Buddhism has 4 schools:Gelug, Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu. HH the Dalai Lama is ONE of the TWO most respected living budda of Gelug(Yellow Hat Sect), another one is Panchen Lama. HH the Dalai Lama can only represent farmers and town living Tibetans from North Central Tibet(Centered with City of Lhasa), which is about 20% of entire Tibetan population at the most. Entire South Central Tibet(Centered with City of Xigaze) worship Panchen Lama only, as well as we who are from Eastern Tibet only believe NyingMa Sect, the Red Hat.)

Another fact is that after more than 50 years the society has changed, it's mostly the older generation that are still religious. The younger, educated generation are more inclined to live a modern life and their attachment to the DL is not as strong anymore. This trend, and the advanced age, puts enormous pressure on the DL to negotiate quickly. The DL has an illusion that he has the magic power to control Tibetans, and the West also tries to believe or take advantage of this illusion. Actually , if the DL goes back to Tibet for sometime and have a feel, he'll definitely be disappointed.

It's in DL's interest to salvage as much influence as he could and quickly negotiate a settlement and get back to Tibet. This way he can still help keep some traditions going(assume that's his intention). Otherwise, his influence will diminish pretty fast as Tibet ( and west china) develops quickly in the next decade. He will be a forgotten man in 20 years time.

Posts are not being posted. Something wrong.

Huang, Da ... What an enlightening analysis: "Of course, for the Tibetan exiles Tibet is the only issue .."

Of course, we are single agenda electorate. That's why, Tibetan diaspora are aptly called 'Tibetan activist'.

" ... I am afraid that they have been used by westerners."

NOT TRUE:

We welcome any supporters to the just and non-violent Tibetan freedom struggle.

I am not sure what you want us to do. To turn-away our supporters and we just give-in. For example, you want Dalai Lama to refuse Nobel Prize, US Congress Gold Medal, Honorary Canadian Citizenship and 100 other major awards and honorary degrees conferred on Dalai Lama and his peaceful, non-violent struggle for Tibet.

One simple solution for China. Solve the Tibet problem that is mutually agreeable and treat Tibetans better.

If China had solved this problem decades ago by negotiating with Dalai Lama to come up with a win-win solution , there will not be a Tibet issue.

Even this Olympics fiasco for China, if PRC leaders were smart, they should have continued the dialogue and atleast produced one result from the latest 6 rounds in the last 7-8 years with no results to show for and no recognition.

As a start they could have accepted one simple demand by Dalai Lama to visit China on a religious pilgrimage to Wutan Sha Buddhist Mountain a year ago that he had formally requested 3 years ago. Instead they hardened, attacked Dalai Lama that deeply hurt the feelings of the Tibetan people in Tibet (btw I hear this phrase 'hurt the feeling of Chinese people' all the time from Xinhua - is it some CCP phrase), increased repression with the appointment of hardliner top leader Party Secretary Zhang Qingli and completely under-estimated the will of the people in the free-world when they really needed it during the Olympics.

What an inept policy, I think the Chinese citizens should question the leadership? Sorry no transparency and no tolerance for criticism, right? Can't have a cake and eat it too all the time.

So I agree Huang that it's in the best interest of Chinese to reform China. In fact, Chinese people may thank the Tibetan activist to start this process from this recent events (Sincerely and sacarcism not intended).

The great thing about the Tibetan movement is it's really a grass-root movement with support coming from the general public in the free-world. So the government is obliged to act which they have not done enough. The govt is mostly run by big business and lobbyst with deep pockets and ofcourse they have been in pressuring their govt to give in to China so that the business interest is not jeapardized. Look at China's biggest supporters you will see the top fortune 500 companies from Boeing, Airbus, GM, Coke, Sony etc.

I am not saying as a Tibetan but the Tibetan movement to get this much attention lately is truly power of justice, truth, democracy of the will of the people. I don't know how long you guys have been in the west but this 'free Tibet' movement was bigger in the 90s with huge concerts, protests etc but mostly in the public.

This is 40 years of grass-root effort with very limited funding. If you find out the funding of the Tibetan-exile, you would be amazed at the accomplishment. BTW, all transparent and fully accounted for (check out www.tibet.net) and no secrets. I don't see CIA funding but lots of individuals and NGOs. As I have said big chunk comes from Dalai Lama office from many of his public talks, book sales, donors. Again no secrets and fully transparent.

I don't see any conspiracy and used by western power for what? China's rise is due to the West. If West (including Japan, Taiwan) stopped buying Chinese products and invested heavily when China opened up almost 3 decades ago, China would not develop and become as powerful as it's now.

So where is the conspiracy to use Tibet to hurt China?

Khechok,

"Although both sides seem so close in reaching a solution, yet they are so apart. The biggest reasons is lack of trust."

YOU GOT IT! Five minutes of my argument with Chinese will turn their attitudes around but 5 hours of Chinese debate with Tibetans will get nowhere. Why is that? Both sides sense no trust in the other. I agree with many Chinese that Tibetans have thrown their lot with anti-Chinese westerners that have agenda other than humantarian for Tibet. You never seem to acknowledge this.

"Ultimately, it's the people of Tibet who are speaking up and they want Dalai Lama to be part of the solution who is deep in their heart and truly represent all. He is indisputable spiritual and head of state of Tibet as believed by the people"

Basically I agree, but you may have exeraggrated the degree that Tibetans in Tibet are so hateful of Chinese rule. Many Tibetans say the exiles are ignorant of what's happening in Tibet and that they are much more satified than protraited.

"What's little puzzling why is there so much hatred against the Dalai Lama by the Chinese living in the free-world as we see in these postings."

That again is an exeraggeration. I think many Chinese see the Dalai Lama being used as a tool by ant-China forces. I think that there is some truth to that, though I personally think he is basically a good guy.

On the other hand, you don't seem to see the hate from the Tibetan posters and their western supporters. The westerner supporters are the most vocal and the most hateful but what would happen is that the Tibetans would THANK their western suporters for their basically hate mail!!!

"I don't see Dalai Lama being anti-China and absolutely not anti-Chinese. His message has been consistent from the 60s to now and that's quite remarkably."

Maybe, but the exile education system teaches very biased accounts of recent history as well as self serving general history. That leaves one somewhat not fully convinced. If his surrogates and the young students are anti-China does that not say something about his views?

"Dalai Lama was responsible for disbanding the CIA funded Tibetan guerrilla movement in the 60s, DL is the reason this conflict has been non-violent and continues.

For a Tibetan, that's almost giving into enemy and can't imagine any other leader doing this before any negotiations."

So you say clearly that China is an ENEMY just as many Chinese accuse the exiles of believing in. The exiles view China as an enemy not as a nation that they hope to unite with greater autonomy.

"So back to why Dalai Lama is still hated so much by Chinese living in the free-world as shown by these postings, pro-China protests etc."

Again, my firend and I don't hate him at all. Others may feel that he is up to no good, not necesary because of him but because of the forces behind him.

"In the long run, I see Dalai Lama to be of great benefits to China and the Chinese people."

Yes I agree. Once the Tibet issue is resolved there will be many more Chinese students who will follow his path.

So the basic problem is mistrust on both sides.
Since the Dalai Lam claims that his side is the democratic side, then it should be easier for the Tibetan side to calm down on the propaganda and moderate the education to the young. This building of mutual trust will take time but as long as western forces are not involved, I think that it will work.

"I do not feel the real reasons for the attacks on China really have all that much to do with Tibet but a long standing resentment and fear of change and perhaps most of all avoidance of the issues that really matter to the American people that will make a difference. The latter point makes the last thing the American government want - and others with similar agendas, is a satisfying end to this escalation."

Excellent point, Zephon.

Of course, for the Tibetan exiles Tibet is the only issue, and I am afraid that they have been used by westerners.

"Regardless here are the guidelines for bonded fighting:

1. level with each other – be candid

2. to avoid attacks use I/we statements when you can – attacks are assaults on a persons/countries self esteem

3. avoid mixed or double messages – don’t use messages that contradict

4.Choose the time and place carefully – some recommend time for complaints/grievances to be set aside, or fighting by appointment, this gives opponents time to prepare and helps the instigator organize, otherwise be smart when choosing the time to instigate a fight

5.focus anger only on specific issues – focus on the "now" and do not gunnysack/gathering grievances and keeping them secret

6.ask for specific changes but be open to compromise – instigators need to be ready to propose at least one solution, recipients might be able to come up with possible solutions as well, bargaining and negotiation are part of that solution as there are normally several ways to solve a problem

7.Be willing to change yourself – be willing to take action, and acceptance which is the first step in change

8.Don’t try to win – do not compete in fights, Americans socialization is such that everything is seen in winning and loosing. In bonded fighting there are no winners and losers. Loosing diminishes self-esteem. It is more like a dance.

9.Remember to end the argument – fight only about big issues and know"

Very well said.

Debates tend to have goal of winning and in the end nobody agrees to anything because nobody wants to be a loser.

"In your opinion, should UN stick their nose in Guantanamo Bay?"

Yes, but it's not going to happen because the US will claim that its a US internal issue not a UN issue. On the other hand the US uses Guantanamo base to hold and interrogate "terrorists" without charges precisely Guantanamo is outside US jurisdiction.

Although many people don't like the UN I feel that it is one of the few institutions that can bring even a semblence of justice to the world. Had the UN staged a separation force between the Israelis and Palestinians years ago, the situation would be much much better today.

I do trust the International Red Cross more. However, they generally cannot solve political problems, but the UN can.

HH Dalai Lama tops the Time Magazine list.

While the TIME magazine does not officially rank their list, His Holiness Dalai Lama leads the list of 100 most influential people in the world Today!

Here is a posting from a mainland Chinese on Time Magazine:

Posted by xuechen at 5/1/08 9:14 p.m.

" I am a Chinese, and I am worrying that my government is not telling the truth about Tibet. Why would they hate us so much? There must be a reason. They are not mad people. And the Dalai Lama, is he really a terrorist? I saw Time magazine voted him most influential people in the world, more than our leaders. Are we wrong? Maybe we should start reading and listening to other sources, other than the government propaganda."

I joined this blog for the first time a week ago with this posting and still the baseless Xinhua source vilification of the Dalai Lama continues in this posting.

So I am going to repost my original note and request sensible Chinese to give me few reasons. Is one peaceful person such as threat to the mighty Chinese empire. This is so remenescent to Mahatma Gandhi's persona against the mighty British empire and look what happened to British empire? So is it the reason?

Although both sides seem so close in reaching a solution, yet they are so apart. The biggest reasons is lack of trust.

China will not find a better partner to negotiate and solve the Tibet problem other than Dalai Lama.

It's quite evident that after 50 years, without Dalai Lama, China cannot solve the Tibet problem. Ultimately, it's the people of Tibet who are speaking up and they want Dalai Lama to be part of the solution who is deep in their heart and truly represent all. He is indisputable spiritual and head of state of Tibet as believed by the people

China must recognize the failure of their policies on Tibet and must try new ways to solve the problem in Tibet. That means other than using force and terror.

I still see vilification of Dalai Lama after a day of this hopeful announcement.

What's little puzzling why is there so much hatred against the Dalai Lama by the Chinese living in the free-world as we see in these postings.

When I study on Dalai Lama, he is pragmatic and a realist, who is absolutely believe in non-violence but not shy to tell the truth on what's happening in Tibet. In facts, many Tibetans feel that he is not forceful enough to express the sufferings of the Tibetans. When he travels around the world, he mostly stays out of politics and engages in these religious teachings, public self-help non-political talks, inter-faith services. Unless requested or asked by media or public, he talks about political situation in Tibet.

I don't see Dalai Lama being anti-China and absolutely not anti-Chinese. His message has been consistent from the 60s to now and that's quite remarkably. Read Pico Iyer's latest book on Dalai Lama. Dalai Lama has no secrets and everthing is public unlike China and much less the leaders. So even studying all of his works for any negative about him and China, China still comes with less than convincing reasons and no evidence to attack him.

Dalai supported Beijing hosting Olympics, supports it to be part of WTO, supported it to get Most Favored Trade nation status with the US, accepts Tibet part of China. Dalai Lama was responsible for disbanding the CIA funded Tibetan guerrilla movement in the 60s, DL is the reason this conflict has been non-violent and continues.

For a Tibetan, that's almost giving into enemy and can't imagine any other leader doing this before any negotiations.

So back to why Dalai Lama is still hated so much by Chinese living in the free-world as shown by these postings, pro-China protests etc. Is it because he is so famous and respected around the world and his being is a threat to the rise of China. Chinese people don't want to see dirty laundry being aired in the world about Tibet.

In the long run, I see Dalai Lama to be of great benefits to China and the Chinese people.

So to build this trust before any agreement if any is reached, Chinese govt should stop its unjust vilification on the Dalai Lama who is clearly being looked by the Tibetans as their true leader in their heart.

Unless this problem is resolved while Dalai Lama is alive in the next 5-10 years, I don't see it being resolved and see strong possibility that it will become violent, which is not going to help both sides.

What's the dichotomy is the Dalai Lama is respected and loved by the people in the free world during his 50 years in exile but he is hated by the Chinese people. That is not going to help look well on the Chinese if people around the world do not agree.

I would ask all of the pro-China Chinese posters to give me a few reasons why Dalai Lama is hated so much by the Chinese people. Please provide some concrete evidence?

Excellent !
After the iraqi debacle, another american commentor lecturing the french about diplomacy!
Did you learned nothing?

you idiot westerner forget Bibet ok?
TO free Iraq is your right job!!
Shame on westners!

@HUANG

In your opinion, should UN stick their nose in Guantanamo Bay?

T.S: nice writing and strong arguement. Totally agree.

For those who consider Dalai as the solution for a democratic Tibet, have you checked Dalai's human right's record?

Let alone his brutal ruling as a theocratic dictator prior to his exile, Dalai and his "government-in-exile" has systematically oppressed the believers of Dorje Shugden in the tibetan-in-exile commmunity (search in youtube to hear from the words of Tebtans & Dalai on this issue).

Would a theocratic dictator enforce the separation of church and state? Dalai hasn't done it in his "government-in-exile", why would you think he will do it once he has more power?

These are 9 guidelines for bonded fighting. Fighting that involves a positive outcome, "win-win" for the parties involved.

The first item involves transparency. One of the reasons for a lack of candidacy on Tibet from China is that the Chinese feel they are the recipients of attacks that are not grounded in facts and that it is an internal issue. America and other countries need to be more candid as well. I do not feel the real reasons for the attacks on China really have all that much to do with Tibet but a long standing resentment and fear of change and perhaps most of all avoidance of the issues that really matter to the American people that will make a difference. The latter point makes the last thing the American government want - and others with similar agendas, is a satisfying end to this escalation.

Regardless here are the guidelines for bonded fighting:

1. level with each other – be candid

2. to avoid attacks use I/we statements when you can – attacks are assaults on a persons/countries self esteem

3. avoid mixed or double messages – don’t use messages that contradict

4.Choose the time and place carefully – some recommend time for complaints/grievances to be set aside, or fighting by appointment, this gives opponents time to prepare and helps the instigator organize, otherwise be smart when choosing the time to instigate a fight

5.focus anger only on specific issues – focus on the "now" and do not gunnysack/gathering grievances and keeping them secret

6.ask for specific changes but be open to compromise – instigators need to be ready to propose at least one solution, recipients might be able to come up with possible solutions as well, bargaining and negotiation are part of that solution as there are normally several ways to solve a problem

7.Be willing to change yourself – be willing to take action, and acceptance which is the first step in change

8.Don’t try to win – do not compete in fights, Americans socialization is such that everything is seen in winning and loosing. In bonded fighting there are no winners and losers. Loosing diminishes self-esteem. It is more like a dance.

9.Remember to end the argument – fight only about big issues and know how and when to stop fighting.

"This frantic fence-mending is exactly an example of how not to pursue relations with China."

Funny. Provide one example of a Foggy Bottom dweller (or the French, English or Japanese equivalent) who'd agree with this.

A constant state of frantic fence mending is a great description of the State Department China policy and the tact advocated by any "expert".

The well-planned riots in China and well-orchestrated Torch relay distruptions were a wake-up call for Chinese in and outside of that country. The reaction of the Chinese youths to the violence against and humiliation of the Torch, a symbol of their country's coming -of -age achievement, was a shocker to the West also. Personally I think to attach huge symbolic meaning as the Games' host is utter nonsense. I voiced my objection 8 years agao when China was in hot contest to host the Game. I thought to build better infrastructure, to eliminate poverty, to solve social problems and to implément political reforms are more urgent than to host a Game that comes around every four years.
What's the big deal?

Apparently, it is a huge deal for the government and the people. After eight years of diligent preparation and high expectation, the final countdown has begun. I, and millions of other people of goodwill, are obliged to wish them well. Then the riots, protests and counter-protests. Then the biased media coverage , doctored video-tapes, rumored reports of death figures all aimed to demonize China and Chinese. Name-calling bashing even appeared on prime-time tv. The overseas Chinese youths rose in solidarity to meet the onslaught of bad mouths, bad press and bad publicity. A rare sight indeed!

Chinese youths always rose to meet outside challenge when external forces threatening the honor or security of their country. The 1919 May Fourth Movement was a defining moment in the history of modern China. Then in the 1930s when the Japanese militarists invaded China (and l3 other Asian countries)and committed beastly atrocities, millions of youths sacrificed their lives on the battlefield. Then in 1989 in Beijing and many other cities, the youths gathered to demand political reform and democracy.Though the movement failed and ended in bloodshed, it did inspire other youths in other lands (East Europe).

Some commentators describe the current activities of the Chinese young as "awakened nationalism". Nationalism , just like that certain L word, somehow has acquired a dark connotation to
certain groups with certain agenda. All the modern isms started in the 19th century, the so-called age of ideology. Nationalism saved a lot of ethnic groups from the shackles of empires (artificially built and artificially imposed). Later on, it freed the continent of Africa from the yolk of colonizing imperialists. The former slavemasters and former colonialists fear and detest the word Nationalism. Because it unites a people and gives them strength and self-confidence. At the same time I am not in favor of ferverish nationalism, because it may easily degenerate into chauvanism, jingoism, or worse, a hilterian kind of "we are better than thou" killer racism. Thus, I would advise all Chinese youths, believe in the enduring strength of your culture, your history, as well as believe in your own capacity to use that enduring strength and tenacity for the betterment of humanity as a whole.

Concerning transparancy, I think that the criticism that China is not transparant is on target.

I did a little research and learned that recently a Uigher lady was sentenced to 8 years in jail for leaking "state secrets", aparently material already published. This is (on surface) not fair. Because the law is not specific on what "state secret" is, the judges can interpret as they wish. Until China changes this law, judgements involving state secrets can not be trusted.

The main theme is that the laws are not that specific and the judges can then be abitrary and yet claim a judicial process. When important laws are this way, I do not blame westerners and Tibetans for not trusting Chinese rulings.

Now, whether any specific case was ruled fairly or unfairly will always be criticized by foreigners. When the criticism is not fair then the Chinese get upset. So this is a big problem on the Chinese side.

This issue can be resolved by reforming the laws to be well defined and without political overtones. Then the laws must be followed through with no interference from the government. If this can be followed through then China can argue its case much better.

Another aspect of transparancy is the press. Although I favor a more free press I do not trust the foreign press in China. They have shown their bias in too many cases. The solution may be the issuance of licenses to large reputable news organizations whose reporters are held liable for accurate reporting.

I trust reputable international agenecies , such as the UN and the International Red Cross, more than the press. I believe that China will allow the Int Red Cross to inspect any jails in China. I don't know if that is actually happening. In any case China has to open up so that she cannot be accusing of hiding anything.

To Khechok: To simply say "makes absolutely no sense" without stating any reasons truely and absolutely makes no sense, showing no tolerance whatsoever. Todays news says Northwestern University cancelled Rev Wright's honorary degree because of his controversal speeches. That indicates even USA has "no tolerance for open debate and dissenting views."

Thmak makes absolutely no sense. So is GLQ. Sorry, perhaps living too long in the middle-kingdom or haven't been exposed to the outside world that long. So there is no point discussing. Read my previous postings.

For them it's best to follow that imperial edict inscriped on the pillars erected in the ancient capital of Lhasa (still standing today) and Xian during the Tibetan Tubo dynasty and Chinese Tang dynasty respectively in the 7th century AD: "Tibetans will be happy in the great land of Tibet and Chinese will be happy in the great land of China."

I am not sure where Huang stands, so I still have some hope to find some common ground for having a meaningful dialogue on China-Tibet issue.

To Khechok: You said " Back in the 60's shortly after being in exile, a Tibetan constitution was drafted. Then finally about 10 years ago...". It has been 40 some years and Dalai is still the head of state and spiritual leader. A "truely" Democratic system will not allow the head of state to hold office that long. During those period, the head of state in China had changed hands many times. So which is more democratic? I hope you understand.

Khechok: Thanks for reading my post.. You mentioned "transparency and no tolerance for open debate and dissenting views.". You don't define how transparent is transparent. Each country has their own yardstick. One country's yardstick is not applicable for another country. I hope you understand. As you know that murderous riots had happened in Zixang (Tibet). It is obvious for security reason that measures be implemented to prevent further riots from happening. Eavesdropping is one of those measures as is done in USA to prevent any further 9/11 event from happening. There is tolerance for open debate and dissenting views. Of course there is no tolerance for issues that had been resolved just like in any other country. Again it all depends on what the topics are. Inflamatory debates and views are obviously not tolerated in any country such as a KKK rally or support for Al Qaeda. I hope you understand. Of course, there is such people who purposely wants such debates just to get publicity, attention and finacial gain. I hope you understand.

Since u say nationalism is bad,
then Olympics is just as bad as it promotes nationalism.

Living in US for 26 years (not as an American) I know it's no use arguing with them, many of them are right wing xenophobes. Americans all believe whatever they are doing is the greatest, their religion is the only true one, and they all agree when the President wants to bomb another country. US invaded more countries after the WWII than Hitler ever dreamed of. The slogans are Democracy, Freedom, Human Rights, National Security, ... It teamed up with the most repressive regimes and organizations including the Saudis, Bin Laden, Saddam, ... . Iraq is being mopped up and the US congress now wants the poor Iraqis to provide cheap oil for US military! How ironic!!!

The reason the talks will not get anywhere is not because the two sides can't agree on what constitutes Tibet. The reason is that the PRC government is not going to talk to the so called Tibetan government in-exile. It only wants to talk to the Dalai Lama as a private person and treats him as a private citizen, not a head of a government of Tibet. That is, Dalai Lama can go back as a religious leader, not a political leader.

Actually Dalai Lama only represents less than 20% of the Tibetan population that believe in the Gelug school near Lhasa area. To claim to be a leader for all Tibetans is a bit far stretched too.

Once the Dalai Lama caves in to the China's demands, the Chinese government will be going after India's territory Arunachal Pradesh, historically part of Greater Tibet.

Khechok,

You say that in other conflicts at least the press is there, there is better information, and relatives can feel better.

How true is that and how important is that to the suffering people???

In Iraq many independent journalists have been killed, leading many to suspect US dirty play. So now mostly US approved journalists are covering the scene.

I know for a fact that they shoot journalists in the West Bank and Gaza. So very little coverage there.

Practically no one covers Kashmir.

So now you are saying that a family in Gaza, their food spoiled because there is no electricity and they have no more water are afraid to go out for water and food because of fighting is somehow better than a family in Tibet who will be fine if they don't riot?

In fact some children in Gaza do go out for water and the gets a sniper bullet in the head. Just because there may be one or two frightened reporter in Gaza makes no difference at all to the people's situation, or to their relatives information but you seem to think that is the key difference between China nd other conflicts.

Zephon and I and most Chinese know that the minorities in China have been treated fairly in general. In Tibet because of the history and tension the situation may be more harsh, but in reality Tibet is a cakewalk compared to other places.

Yes, I know, you living in the west take democracy as the most important, as they say in the west "its better to die free than live a slave". However, I think that in poorer countries, getting enough to eat and having some security as long as you follow the law is good enough.

However, I do agree that China should be much more transparent. I know that Tibetan exiles tell lies about China and China plays into their hands by not allowing an independent press to cover Tibet and anywhere in China.

China has gone some ways though. China, several years ago, agreed to allow the Red Cross to inspect any jails in China and I presume Tibet as well. (Amazingly, the USA refused giving this privilege to the Red Cross). But China probably will not allow total press freedom because it is a one party system and total press freedom is not compatible with that kind of system. People are not happy with the system but tolerate it. As people get more educated, and as the leaders know that people do not buy simple propaganda the system will change for the better.

On my travels to China I tell the people I meet that China needs to be more transparent. Everything helps.

Right on Jane:-) I concur with you I don't have a clue what is he mumbling about

I guess he is one of those coffee sipping liberal that had too much time

"Part of the problem is that we have way too many vocational intellectuals and way too few real intellects. A vocational intellectual is someone who makes a living writing or talking. Such people tend to live inside their heads. Delusions of grandeur and fantasies about the real world are constant occupational hazards for such people"

I have to accredit the "insightful view for the "Democratically pious and morally righteous" crowd" to Charley Reese, a columnist at lewrockwell.com

No Mr. Jed Clampett, your english is not good. That's why I didn't understand very much about what you were mumbling about and said you were from another planet. Now, it all make sense!

I could care less about what lable you put on your form of government or how choose to name your fiefdom. I've known some very benebolent kingdoms in my time.

My dear Jane, you only assume I am american because I write english well.

Tambien escribo el castellano sin titubear, quiere decir que soy español?

Je ecribe les france aucy, mais je ne sui pas France.

I give myself the right to opine on anything happening on this rock because I am a citizen of earth first and foremost. before you put on your religious dogmas, your class systems, your intense greed or any of the other subterfuges humanity uses to distract itself from it's actual problems.

Our other interlocutor, LAO, interjects another voice into the conversation.
One that seems to be so prevalent with the chinese these days, or at least what is being dumped on the media such as these boards. By no means does anyone in the west; besides the usual minority of the population that buys into any racism, nationalism or any other -ism to justify their selfhatred, equate the Chinese people with their government. We see also in our governments the same type of selfishness, wasteand exploitation.
Evidently, birds of a feather tend to flock together and support each other, otherwise, governments that actualy exploit their population, their environment, their resources and the rest of wildlife would not be able to exist. right?
Humanity has forgotten it's most important raison de etre, to protect it's homeworld. We seem to think we need to tame and defy nature, rather than understand and copy it. But I digress.

LAO seems to think that the only way to righteous change is war, murder, killing. This comes from a sense of self entitlement. He feels that his opinion is right and he must impose it by force if necessary. He supports this by events in his conceived history tell him this is how humanity has always acted, has always resolved it's diferences. This is not true, otherwise great feats of engineering such as the great wall, the potala palace, the great pyramids and Rome's aqueducts would have never been constructed. Only people who are well fed, well clothed and happily employed are able to do such things. Only they could touch those places who were holy and meant to last forever.
Once those societys decided some people were more important than others and started treating the poor like slaves, nature punished them with famine or some other pestilece to make them loose their hold on power.

If we continue to act wrecklessly in all our endeavours. Acting as if the peoples health and happiness doesn't matter, the environment doesn't matter, and wildlife doesn't matter. It will all be taken away from us, and we won't need any stupid nuclear global conflict for it to happen either.

Here is insightful view for the "Democratically pious and morally righteous" crowd:

"Coffee sippers who think it might be a good idea to free Tibet from China are about 58 years too late. China is not going to free Tibet, and Western encouragement of Tibetan resistance will only get people killed needlessly.

Tibet was part of China for centuries. In 1913, when China seemed to be falling apart, the British Empire encouraged Tibet to declare its independence. It did, and that lasted until 1950, when, at the end of the Chinese civil war, China invaded and reclaimed the area. By then, the impotent British Empire was in no position to help anyone even if it had been so inclined. America chose to do nothing.

If you are not willing to make your way to the Tibetan plateau and face Chinese guns and prisons, then you certainly should not sit around some coffee shop and urge Tibetans to do so. Tibet is a strategic area of China, and the Chinese government is not going to give it up or grant it independence or even autonomy. To paraphrase a famous outlaw, it is enough that we know that China will do what it has to do.

As for us, we should do nothing. Tibet is part of China, and what happens there is an internal affair of China. The rest of the world has no right to interfere, and other than bloviating for a while, I seriously doubt that it will. Unfortunately, in this age of global communications even bloviating can cause bad things to happen to people.

Boycotting the Olympics is a foolish idea by a tiny minority of fanatics. The Olympics have nothing to do with Tibet, just as they had nothing to do with the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. Boycotting the games would be a cruel blow to athletes who have been sweating and training for four years. It would accomplish nothing. It would further politicize the games, which should be encouraged to return to their amateur status.

China was awarded the Summer Games in a fair international competition and has spent a lot of money getting ready for them. Any attempt to spoil the games will do a great disservice to the athletes, the Chinese government and the Chinese people. It will do nothing positive and will only harden attitudes and end up making the world even more dangerous than it already is.

Americans in particular should keep in mind that we are currently engaged in mismanaging two occupations of two countries that we illegally invaded. Neither enterprise is going well. Neither is our economy. In short, we have enough on our own plate without trying to steal a bite off of China’s plate. We should make sure that Afghanistan and Iraq are the last wheezes of the sick American Empire and shut it down and return to our republic.

I don’t know why some Americans seem to have trouble realizing that the days of the European empires are over. Part of the problem is that we have way too many vocational intellectuals and way too few real intellects. A vocational intellectual is someone who makes a living writing or talking. Such people tend to live inside their heads. Delusions of grandeur and fantasies about the real world are constant occupational hazards for such people.

No country in the world has to do what we tell it to do. Certainly that’s the case with the big powers like China, Russia, Japan and India. As you can see every day in your morning paper, even a little country like Iraq can cause us more trouble than it’s worth. It’s a crime against humanity that our sons and daughters are dying in the desert dust while fat politicians cavort about in Washington. Don’t encourage Tibetans to die in some futile fantasy about independence. They are not independent. They are part of China, and part of China they will stay."

To: Jed Clampett

You don't sound like you are living on the same planet as the Chinese. Why are you talking so much useless nonsense? If you are so kind, would you please mind the business of your own country and make America a better place to live for us Chinese Americans who are suffering so much discrimination today. Don't you think our children deserve it?