Comments (396)

These are dangerous times to be a Tibetan folk singer.

Drolmakyi learned that when she opened the only place to listen to live music in this dusty little town perched high on the Tibetan plateau.

The 31-year-old single mother, a singer, a member of the local government council and a well-known figure around town, had grown up tending yak in the mountains and hadn't forgotten her nomadic roots. At the nightclub, she and her friends would put on swirling robes and coral beads as fat as grapes and belt out ballads aching with nostalgia for the old Tibetan ways.

"She sang from the heart," said her mother, Caito, who insists that Drolmakyi's music wasn't political. "My daughter always said we must keep Tibetan culture and language. That's all."

On March 30, Chinese authorities arrested Drolmakyi as she was hanging laundry from the balcony of her apartment. She didn't even get to say goodbye to her three children, ages 9 to 13, who were playing outside. They came back and found their mother gone.

what about the repression and all the Chinese military in Tibet? Got kudos for them, too? How about those brave Tibetan monks who, despite the fact they faced arrest, imprisonment and torture at the hands of the Chinese government, on March 10, 2008, exercised their universal political right to freely express their religious and political views. Since then, many have been killed by the Chinese military, thousands have been injured, arrested and put in jail - all for expressing their wish to practice their religion and culture without government interference. It would be really great to see some Chinese supporting their Tibetan brothers and sisters. Do you think Tibetans hurt or suffer any less the a Han Chinese? Surely you don't see any difference between the two in this regard.

I find it ridiculous that some people actually believe that it's unfair that it's harder to get a job in China if you only speak Tibetan and that the language should be imposed on everyone else. My first thought is, HA! As if. I have friends who are Tibetan and I absolutely respect them, and they agree with me on this one issue. If you go to another country, learn the language. You will get no where if you can't understand a word.

I do wish that China and Tibet can settle this whole issue peacefully, but somehow I doubt it. It's extremely pretentious of the Dalai Lama to demand that huge chunks of China be given to Tibet. There's no way that's going to happen. Considering how many Chinese live there, I seriously doubt they're going to just sit by and let the land be taken.

Khechok,

Though we are "debating" we (especially you) tend to veer toward a self speech with little relevance to what the other wrote.

For example you totally ignore what I wrote about the way the west is using the Tibet issue to bash China. In the particular example, I note that the Congressional Gold Medal has been mostly given to Americans or in exceptional cases to non-Americans who spend years of dedicated work for the world community, including for example, the Am Catholic community, such as Pope John Paul II. The Dalai Lama is narrowly focused on Tibet or is giving small seminars on his teachings, and as such does not really merit such an award. The political nature of this award is noted by many people but you seem so surprised by such observations.

There is no question to me as well as many others that the west is using Tibet issue as political but you seem totally unaware. It is almost like as if you are also one of the grassroots westerners who are so naive and gullible.

"However, I don't think PRC CCP is sincere and it's just a PR exercis to fend off pressure from the world community until the successful launch of the Olympics. Then after Olympics, I can see PRC again closing the door on meaningful dialogue."

The Dalai Lama's representatives says that they feel the Chinese reps are sincere in the last meeting.

"Let's see how this develops. There is strong reasons for pessimism. Sorry to end with this pessimistic view but until a real reform happens within PRC, I don't see a solution in sight for a long time. That's sad."

Reform will defintely help.

"So the Tibetan struggle will continue because China doesn't want to solve this problem that is mutually beneficial."

No, I think that China wants to solve this problem. In fact China has always said that they are open to discuss everything except independence.

"Look at Quebec. Quebec has so many rights including immigration that other provinces don't have."

I don't know all that much about Quebec but I suspect that they don't have the tremendous autonomy rights that the Dalai Lama is seeking.

"- Do you think Dalai Lama should insist on greater Tibet?
Yes, absolutely. It's consistent with Chinese constitution and 17 point agreement that Mao signed. Therefore, traditional Tibetan inhabited regions are in 5 provinces and 6 Prefectures all in contigous land"

I am not sure about this. The Dalai Lama has been using this argument and maybe that's one reason that little progress ahs been accomplished.

"However, It's in the best interest of the central government to check the popolution of this fragile environmentally sentive regions."

No disagreenment here, but I suspect that many Chinese business people and developers would not be happy.

"Actually we don't have to look too far to follow the 'Hong Kong model' within PRC that is one of the most successful policies that PRC has implemented which was truly a win-win-win (China, Hongkong, world). Resolving Tibet issue can be the same way."

Hong Kong has a different historical situation. It was taken away by the Opium War and when returned after 99 years the people had strong local traditions influenced by the British for almost 100 years. So it is only fair to let them continue with these traditions.

Tibet was allow a great deal of autonomy but had squandered its good status when they revolted. The Dalai Lama could have listened to the wise Panchen Lama or to the landlords and radicals. He decided to listen to the landlords. This history is not very well known except by the Dalai Lama himself and the leaders of the rebellion. The PLA lost 9000 killed (the Tibetan around 90,000). That is a huge number for a professional army fighting supposely a defenseless people. Where did the rebels get so many weapons to kill 9000 soldiers?

"I strongly believe in secular government and separation of Church and State which is also the believe of Dalai Lama. For example the office of Dalai Lama can be like other religions, where its responsible for such things as selection of reincarnation, teachings, running of monasteries etc."

So the Dalai Lama will not be part of any new Tibetan autonomous government?

"These are such a wishful thinking when the basic foundation is so much lacking eg. basic rights, laws, freedom, transparency, open debate etc. Overall, Hongkong model within PRC and eventual Taiwan is guideline to solving the Tibetan issue."

Yes.

I ma trying to have a meaningful discussion with Huang and then there are distractions such GLQ.

This GLQ is being a pest trying to provoke me with all the inaccuracies he spews out and putting out this image that he knows something about Tibet. As a matter fact, what he writes shows total lack of indepth knowledge of this issue and sounds pretty shallow. Like the saying goes little knowledge is dangerous. So stick to your Chinese revisionist history and Xinhua news if that satisfies you.

So after filtering these garbage, let me try to have a discussion with Huang. I know exactly the feeling of frustration of losing your posting.

Well I just posted this on another blog in Canada and having this good discussion. I thought I share with you my views with a few good questions this person asked me.

"Thanks for your interest and willing to discuss a few key points which is required amongst sensible Chinese and Tibetan to understand the issues from both sides. You seem sincere so I enjoy the discussions especially to a concerned Han Chinese.
Like I said your questions are valid but I don't think it's even discussed or taken seriously by the Chinese government.

However, I don't think PRC CCP is sincere and it's just a PR exercis to fend off pressure from the world community until the successful launch of the Olympics. Then after Olympics, I can see PRC again closing the door on meaningful dialogue.
It will be back to what CCP knows best, control, repression, and peace by overwhelming force.

It's not what's best for the country but ultimately the establishment i.e. TAR CCP, United Front top officials, hardliners survival and their well-being are based on fighting off their artificial enemy 'separatists' and continued with their 'people's war'.

Looks like the old Moaist Leftist have found a home on the Tibet issue and they will ensure that there is no solution.
Let's see how this develops. There is strong reasons for pessimism. Sorry to end with this pessimistic view but until a real reform happens within PRC, I don't see a solution in sight for a long time. That's sad.
So the Tibetan struggle will continue because China doesn't want to solve this problem that is mutually beneficial."

"Sorry I don't mean to avoid answering any questions. You seem sincere, so here are my responses:

Do you think that Tibetan should demand independence now?
No. Having travelled all over China and Tibet. I believe Tibet can benefit be part of China provided Tibet gets geniune autonomy and has control over cultural, religious affairs.
Look at Quebec. Quebec has so many rights including immigration that other provinces don't have.
I also think China can benefit greatly if Tibetan grievances are addressed properly. So it's a win-win solution.
You know one of the most admired Chinese leaders is, Hu Yaobang, who tried to the right the wrongs committed by CCP policies on Tibet but unfortunately he died mysteriously.

- Do you think Dalai Lama should insist on greater Tibet?
Yes, absolutely. It's consistent with Chinese constitution and 17 point agreement that Mao signed. Therefore, traditional Tibetan inhabited regions are in 5 provinces and 6 Prefectures all in contigous land. This has been recognized by the founders of modern China i.e. Sun Yat Tsen and Mao as these regions are all Tibetan ans share the unique culture, language and religion with the rest. So why not combine into one administration if culture and religion protection is indeed what the PRC constitution calls for.

- Do you think that there should be quotas from Lhasa on how many non-Tibetan Chinese should live in Tibet proper and greater Tibet?
If the policies of this Autonomous region is truly implemented where there is language law where officials have to be bilingual (Tibetan and Chinese), then movement of people within the country should be allowed. The land rights and basic laws need to there. This doesn't mean the policy to resettle people in these regions with incentives and giving them land. However, It's in the best interest of the central government to check the popolution of this fragile environmentally sentive regions.
Also as I have said, Chinese who respect the culture and specially the thousands of Chinese Tibetan buddhist are more then welcome to settle in Tibet.
I support making Tibetan areas tourist destinations for the mainland Chinese to visit. In future, it becomes as a place where the mainland Chinese can come, relax, release stress and spiritually and mentally charged.
For the increasing affluent ones, they can even buy second home recreational properties in Tibet. Wouldn't it be nice for a Chinese to go to a place and feel like you are in another country. Just like for Anglophone Canadians visiting Montreal or Quebec City.

- If the answer is yes to above question, should be a different policy on permanent residency vs. temporary residency?
I am not sure but within the same country say PRC, there should be freedom of movement but the local government in particular Tibet should have far more rights than other provinces due to historical reasons eg. look at Quebec etc.
Actually we don't have to look too far to follow the 'Hong Kong model' within PRC that is one of the most successful policies that PRC has implemented which was truly a win-win-win (China, Hongkong, world). Resolving Tibet issue can be the same way.

- Should lama/monk hold any government positions in the future Tibet (church vs. state question)?
No, unless of course a monk was elected to the office by the people in the office and not appointed due to religious titles or positions. Again this assuming that there is free election and some functioning democracy (again the current HongKong model has some).
I strongly believe in secular government and separation of Church and State which is also the believe of Dalai Lama. For example the office of Dalai Lama can be like other religions, where its responsible for such things as selection of reincarnation, teachings, running of monasteries etc.
These are such a wishful thinking when the basic foundation is so much lacking eg. basic rights, laws, freedom, transparency, open debate etc.
Overall, Hongkong model within PRC and eventual Taiwan is guideline to solving the Tibetan issue.
I hope I have answered. I would like to get your feedback/answers to your questions.
You sound like a moderate, reasonable Chinese and I know these are very difficult to digest for a lot of Chinese let alone discuss but that's only the way to resolve this problem is through dialogue.

Again the alternative for not resolving the Tibet issue is continued instability, losing Tibet completely and continued damaging China's reputation and its desire to become a super power, etc."

Posted by: Khechok | May 6, 2008 02:34 PM

"It's in DL's interest to salvage as much influence as he could and quickly negotiate a settlement and get back to Tibet."

True, DL doesn't really represent all the Tibetans. Many foreign Tibetan youth grew up in democratic countries, and don't appear to be as religious as their parents, and they may not agree with the DL's middle way.

If DL cannot control all the Tibetans, then he is not fully responsible for the riots which China is accusing him of.

Foreign Tibetans will continue to be a thorn in China's side, with or without the DL, as long as no satifactory solution is reached for Tibet.

Khechok,

My post got lost so I will do another.

"I am not sure what you want us to do. To turn-away our supporters and we just give-in. For example, you want Dalai Lama to refuse Nobel Prize, US Congress Gold Medal, Honorary Canadian Citizenship and 100 other major awards and honorary degrees conferred on Dalai Lama and his peaceful, non-violent struggle for Tibet."

Most are fine but if there is an honor that has strong poltical overtones auch as the Congressional Gold Medal, I think the Dalai should politely refuse, but he does not (I guess his opinion is that Congress's action is not political). That medal goes mostly to Americans, but when it goes to a foreigner, the Dalai Lama, who is in the middle of a fight with Beijing and with the Olympic coming up, there is a strong political element in it. Basically Congress is taking sides and the Dalai Lama is accepting the support despite the knowledge that it is not going to help in the negotiations.

Congress is also thanking the Dala Lama for a job well done in using Congress money for giving China a bad name (the money is disbursed through the Endowment for Democracy).

"The great thing about the Tibetan movement is it's really a grass-root movement with support coming from the general public in the free-world."

But why is there only a Free Tibet booth but no Free Kashmir booth of Free Gaza booth? Are grassroots people so selective?

I hope that you understand that what you call grassroots could very well be started by seed money and then promoted by a biased media. Those movements that do not have this seed money and media support will not be heard.

"I don't see any conspiracy and used by western power for what? "

You are either naive or not facing reality. Just because the west "supports" Tibetans does not mean that they are not using you as a tool to put down a rising China.

China is the winning side. Its actually better for Tibetans to team up with China than with China bashers.

It is completely dishonest (purposely stripping historical events of their proper context) to discuss anything about Tibet without first pointing out the CIA's direct role in instigating and financing the Tibetan Lamas and feudal landowning aristocratic class from starting the original armed uprise in a cynical ploy to separate from China-as part of the Cold War.

It is a well-known historical fact (not so much among the ignorant American masses) that the Dalai Lama and his militia had received tremendous amount of financial and military support from the CIA. The Dalai Lama have personally been getting a six-figure payment from the CIA on an annual basis for decades until it became a rather public and embarrassing issue that was causing a bit of a PR backlash. So the payment has now been redirected to come from the US Congress itself.

If the DL DOES represent all Tibetans, the Chinese government will have to give more concession in the negotiations. But since his believers constitute less than 20% of all Tibetans, he has much less bargaining power. Here is a quote on the 20% figure from another Pomfret comment:

(His Holyness the Dalai Lama DOES NOT represent Tibet. Our Tibetan Buddhism has 4 schools:Gelug, Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu. HH the Dalai Lama is ONE of the TWO most respected living budda of Gelug(Yellow Hat Sect), another one is Panchen Lama. HH the Dalai Lama can only represent farmers and town living Tibetans from North Central Tibet(Centered with City of Lhasa), which is about 20% of entire Tibetan population at the most. Entire South Central Tibet(Centered with City of Xigaze) worship Panchen Lama only, as well as we who are from Eastern Tibet only believe NyingMa Sect, the Red Hat.)

Another fact is that after more than 50 years the society has changed, it's mostly the older generation that are still religious. The younger, educated generation are more inclined to live a modern life and their attachment to the DL is not as strong anymore. This trend, and the advanced age, puts enormous pressure on the DL to negotiate quickly. The DL has an illusion that he has the magic power to control Tibetans, and the West also tries to believe or take advantage of this illusion. Actually , if the DL goes back to Tibet for sometime and have a feel, he'll definitely be disappointed.

It's in DL's interest to salvage as much influence as he could and quickly negotiate a settlement and get back to Tibet. This way he can still help keep some traditions going(assume that's his intention). Otherwise, his influence will diminish pretty fast as Tibet ( and west china) develops quickly in the next decade. He will be a forgotten man in 20 years time.

If the DL DOES represent all Tibetans, the Chinese government will have to give more concession in the negotiations. But since his believers constitute less than 20% of all Tibetans, he has much less bargaining power. Here is a quote on the 20% figure from another Pomfret comment:

(His Holyness the Dalai Lama DOES NOT represent Tibet. Our Tibetan Buddhism has 4 schools:Gelug, Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu. HH the Dalai Lama is ONE of the TWO most respected living budda of Gelug(Yellow Hat Sect), another one is Panchen Lama. HH the Dalai Lama can only represent farmers and town living Tibetans from North Central Tibet(Centered with City of Lhasa), which is about 20% of entire Tibetan population at the most. Entire South Central Tibet(Centered with City of Xigaze) worship Panchen Lama only, as well as we who are from Eastern Tibet only believe NyingMa Sect, the Red Hat.)

Another fact is that after more than 50 years the society has changed, it's mostly the older generation that are still religious. The younger, educated generation are more inclined to live a modern life and their attachment to the DL is not as strong anymore. This trend, and the advanced age, puts enormous pressure on the DL to negotiate quickly. The DL has an illusion that he has the magic power to control Tibetans, and the West also tries to believe or take advantage of this illusion. Actually , if the DL goes back to Tibet for sometime and have a feel, he'll definitely be disappointed.

It's in DL's interest to salvage as much influence as he could and quickly negotiate a settlement and get back to Tibet. This way he can still help keep some traditions going(assume that's his intention). Otherwise, his influence will diminish pretty fast as Tibet ( and west china) develops quickly in the next decade. He will be a forgotten man in 20 years time.

Posts are not being posted. Something wrong.

Huang, Da ... What an enlightening analysis: "Of course, for the Tibetan exiles Tibet is the only issue .."

Of course, we are single agenda electorate. That's why, Tibetan diaspora are aptly called 'Tibetan activist'.

" ... I am afraid that they have been used by westerners."

NOT TRUE:

We welcome any supporters to the just and non-violent Tibetan freedom struggle.

I am not sure what you want us to do. To turn-away our supporters and we just give-in. For example, you want Dalai Lama to refuse Nobel Prize, US Congress Gold Medal, Honorary Canadian Citizenship and 100 other major awards and honorary degrees conferred on Dalai Lama and his peaceful, non-violent struggle for Tibet.

One simple solution for China. Solve the Tibet problem that is mutually agreeable and treat Tibetans better.

If China had solved this problem decades ago by negotiating with Dalai Lama to come up with a win-win solution , there will not be a Tibet issue.

Even this Olympics fiasco for China, if PRC leaders were smart, they should have continued the dialogue and atleast produced one result from the latest 6 rounds in the last 7-8 years with no results to show for and no recognition.

As a start they could have accepted one simple demand by Dalai Lama to visit China on a religious pilgrimage to Wutan Sha Buddhist Mountain a year ago that he had formally requested 3 years ago. Instead they hardened, attacked Dalai Lama that deeply hurt the feelings of the Tibetan people in Tibet (btw I hear this phrase 'hurt the feeling of Chinese people' all the time from Xinhua - is it some CCP phrase), increased repression with the appointment of hardliner top leader Party Secretary Zhang Qingli and completely under-estimated the will of the people in the free-world when they really needed it during the Olympics.

What an inept policy, I think the Chinese citizens should question the leadership? Sorry no transparency and no tolerance for criticism, right? Can't have a cake and eat it too all the time.

So I agree Huang that it's in the best interest of Chinese to reform China. In fact, Chinese people may thank the Tibetan activist to start this process from this recent events (Sincerely and sacarcism not intended).

The great thing about the Tibetan movement is it's really a grass-root movement with support coming from the general public in the free-world. So the government is obliged to act which they have not done enough. The govt is mostly run by big business and lobbyst with deep pockets and ofcourse they have been in pressuring their govt to give in to China so that the business interest is not jeapardized. Look at China's biggest supporters you will see the top fortune 500 companies from Boeing, Airbus, GM, Coke, Sony etc.

I am not saying as a Tibetan but the Tibetan movement to get this much attention lately is truly power of justice, truth, democracy of the will of the people. I don't know how long you guys have been in the west but this 'free Tibet' movement was bigger in the 90s with huge concerts, protests etc but mostly in the public.

This is 40 years of grass-root effort with very limited funding. If you find out the funding of the Tibetan-exile, you would be amazed at the accomplishment. BTW, all transparent and fully accounted for (check out www.tibet.net) and no secrets. I don't see CIA funding but lots of individuals and NGOs. As I have said big chunk comes from Dalai Lama office from many of his public talks, book sales, donors. Again no secrets and fully transparent.

I don't see any conspiracy and used by western power for what? China's rise is due to the West. If West (including Japan, Taiwan) stopped buying Chinese products and invested heavily when China opened up almost 3 decades ago, China would not develop and become as powerful as it's now.

So where is the conspiracy to use Tibet to hurt China?

Khechok,

"Although both sides seem so close in reaching a solution, yet they are so apart. The biggest reasons is lack of trust."

YOU GOT IT! Five minutes of my argument with Chinese will turn their attitudes around but 5 hours of Chinese debate with Tibetans will get nowhere. Why is that? Both sides sense no trust in the other. I agree with many Chinese that Tibetans have thrown their lot with anti-Chinese westerners that have agenda other than humantarian for Tibet. You never seem to acknowledge this.

"Ultimately, it's the people of Tibet who are speaking up and they want Dalai Lama to be part of the solution who is deep in their heart and truly represent all. He is indisputable spiritual and head of state of Tibet as believed by the people"

Basically I agree, but you may have exeraggrated the degree that Tibetans in Tibet are so hateful of Chinese rule. Many Tibetans say the exiles are ignorant of what's happening in Tibet and that they are much more satified than protraited.

"What's little puzzling why is there so much hatred against the Dalai Lama by the Chinese living in the free-world as we see in these postings."

That again is an exeraggeration. I think many Chinese see the Dalai Lama being used as a tool by ant-China forces. I think that there is some truth to that, though I personally think he is basically a good guy.

On the other hand, you don't seem to see the hate from the Tibetan posters and their western supporters. The westerner supporters are the most vocal and the most hateful but what would happen is that the Tibetans would THANK their western suporters for their basically hate mail!!!

"I don't see Dalai Lama being anti-China and absolutely not anti-Chinese. His message has been consistent from the 60s to now and that's quite remarkably."

Maybe, but the exile education system teaches very biased accounts of recent history as well as self serving general history. That leaves one somewhat not fully convinced. If his surrogates and the young students are anti-China does that not say something about his views?

"Dalai Lama was responsible for disbanding the CIA funded Tibetan guerrilla movement in the 60s, DL is the reason this conflict has been non-violent and continues.

For a Tibetan, that's almost giving into enemy and can't imagine any other leader doing this before any negotiations."

So you say clearly that China is an ENEMY just as many Chinese accuse the exiles of believing in. The exiles view China as an enemy not as a nation that they hope to unite with greater autonomy.

"So back to why Dalai Lama is still hated so much by Chinese living in the free-world as shown by these postings, pro-China protests etc."

Again, my firend and I don't hate him at all. Others may feel that he is up to no good, not necesary because of him but because of the forces behind him.

"In the long run, I see Dalai Lama to be of great benefits to China and the Chinese people."

Yes I agree. Once the Tibet issue is resolved there will be many more Chinese students who will follow his path.

So the basic problem is mistrust on both sides.
Since the Dalai Lam claims that his side is the democratic side, then it should be easier for the Tibetan side to calm down on the propaganda and moderate the education to the young. This building of mutual trust will take time but as long as western forces are not involved, I think that it will work.

"I do not feel the real reasons for the attacks on China really have all that much to do with Tibet but a long standing resentment and fear of change and perhaps most of all avoidance of the issues that really matter to the American people that will make a difference. The latter point makes the last thing the American government want - and others with similar agendas, is a satisfying end to this escalation."

Excellent point, Zephon.

Of course, for the Tibetan exiles Tibet is the only issue, and I am afraid that they have been used by westerners.

"Regardless here are the guidelines for bonded fighting:

1. level with each other – be candid

2. to avoid attacks use I/we statements when you can – attacks are assaults on a persons/countries self esteem

3. avoid mixed or double messages – don’t use messages that contradict

4.Choose the time and place carefully – some recommend time for complaints/grievances to be set aside, or fighting by appointment, this gives opponents time to prepare and helps the instigator organize, otherwise be smart when choosing the time to instigate a fight

5.focus anger only on specific issues – focus on the "now" and do not gunnysack/gathering grievances and keeping them secret

6.ask for specific changes but be open to compromise – instigators need to be ready to propose at least one solution, recipients might be able to come up with possible solutions as well, bargaining and negotiation are part of that solution as there are normally several ways to solve a problem

7.Be willing to change yourself – be willing to take action, and acceptance which is the first step in change

8.Don’t try to win – do not compete in fights, Americans socialization is such that everything is seen in winning and loosing. In bonded fighting there are no winners and losers. Loosing diminishes self-esteem. It is more like a dance.

9.Remember to end the argument – fight only about big issues and know"

Very well said.

Debates tend to have goal of winning and in the end nobody agrees to anything because nobody wants to be a loser.

"In your opinion, should UN stick their nose in Guantanamo Bay?"

Yes, but it's not going to happen because the US will claim that its a US internal issue not a UN issue. On the other hand the US uses Guantanamo base to hold and interrogate "terrorists" without charges precisely Guantanamo is outside US jurisdiction.

Although many people don't like the UN I feel that it is one of the few institutions that can bring even a semblence of justice to the world. Had the UN staged a separation force between the Israelis and Palestinians years ago, the situation would be much much better today.

I do trust the International Red Cross more. However, they generally cannot solve political problems, but the UN can.

HH Dalai Lama tops the Time Magazine list.

While the TIME magazine does not officially rank their list, His Holiness Dalai Lama leads the list of 100 most influential people in the world Today!

Here is a posting from a mainland Chinese on Time Magazine:

Posted by xuechen at 5/1/08 9:14 p.m.

" I am a Chinese, and I am worrying that my government is not telling the truth about Tibet. Why would they hate us so much? There must be a reason. They are not mad people. And the Dalai Lama, is he really a terrorist? I saw Time magazine voted him most influential people in the world, more than our leaders. Are we wrong? Maybe we should start reading and listening to other sources, other than the government propaganda."

I joined this blog for the first time a week ago with this posting and still the baseless Xinhua source vilification of the Dalai Lama continues in this posting.

So I am going to repost my original note and request sensible Chinese to give me few reasons. Is one peaceful person such as threat to the mighty Chinese empire. This is so remenescent to Mahatma Gandhi's persona against the mighty British empire and look what happened to British empire? So is it the reason?

Although both sides seem so close in reaching a solution, yet they are so apart. The biggest reasons is lack of trust.

China will not find a better partner to negotiate and solve the Tibet problem other than Dalai Lama.

It's quite evident that after 50 years, without Dalai Lama, China cannot solve the Tibet problem. Ultimately, it's the people of Tibet who are speaking up and they want Dalai Lama to be part of the solution who is deep in their heart and truly represent all. He is indisputable spiritual and head of state of Tibet as believed by the people

China must recognize the failure of their policies on Tibet and must try new ways to solve the problem in Tibet. That means other than using force and terror.

I still see vilification of Dalai Lama after a day of this hopeful announcement.

What's little puzzling why is there so much hatred against the Dalai Lama by the Chinese living in the free-world as we see in these postings.

When I study on Dalai Lama, he is pragmatic and a realist, who is absolutely believe in non-violence but not shy to tell the truth on what's happening in Tibet. In facts, many Tibetans feel that he is not forceful enough to express the sufferings of the Tibetans. When he travels around the world, he mostly stays out of politics and engages in these religious teachings, public self-help non-political talks, inter-faith services. Unless requested or asked by media or public, he talks about political situation in Tibet.

I don't see Dalai Lama being anti-China and absolutely not anti-Chinese. His message has been consistent from the 60s to now and that's quite remarkably. Read Pico Iyer's latest book on Dalai Lama. Dalai Lama has no secrets and everthing is public unlike China and much less the leaders. So even studying all of his works for any negative about him and China, China still comes with less than convincing reasons and no evidence to attack him.

Dalai supported Beijing hosting Olympics, supports it to be part of WTO, supported it to get Most Favored Trade nation status with the US, accepts Tibet part of China. Dalai Lama was responsible for disbanding the CIA funded Tibetan guerrilla movement in the 60s, DL is the reason this conflict has been non-violent and continues.

For a Tibetan, that's almost giving into enemy and can't imagine any other leader doing this before any negotiations.

So back to why Dalai Lama is still hated so much by Chinese living in the free-world as shown by these postings, pro-China protests etc. Is it because he is so famous and respected around the world and his being is a threat to the rise of China. Chinese people don't want to see dirty laundry being aired in the world about Tibet.

In the long run, I see Dalai Lama to be of great benefits to China and the Chinese people.

So to build this trust before any agreement if any is reached, Chinese govt should stop its unjust vilification on the Dalai Lama who is clearly being looked by the Tibetans as their true leader in their heart.

Unless this problem is resolved while Dalai Lama is alive in the next 5-10 years, I don't see it being resolved and see strong possibility that it will become violent, which is not going to help both sides.

What's the dichotomy is the Dalai Lama is respected and loved by the people in the free world during his 50 years in exile but he is hated by the Chinese people. That is not going to help look well on the Chinese if people around the world do not agree.

I would ask all of the pro-China Chinese posters to give me a few reasons why Dalai Lama is hated so much by the Chinese people. Please provide some concrete evidence?

Excellent !
After the iraqi debacle, another american commentor lecturing the french about diplomacy!
Did you learned nothing?

you idiot westerner forget Bibet ok?
TO free Iraq is your right job!!
Shame on westners!

@HUANG

In your opinion, should UN stick their nose in Guantanamo Bay?

T.S: nice writing and strong arguement. Totally agree.

For those who consider Dalai as the solution for a democratic Tibet, have you checked Dalai's human right's record?

Let alone his brutal ruling as a theocratic dictator prior to his exile, Dalai and his "government-in-exile" has systematically oppressed the believers of Dorje Shugden in the tibetan-in-exile commmunity (search in youtube to hear from the words of Tebtans & Dalai on this issue).

Would a theocratic dictator enforce the separation of church and state? Dalai hasn't done it in his "government-in-exile", why would you think he will do it once he has more power?

These are 9 guidelines for bonded fighting. Fighting that involves a positive outcome, "win-win" for the parties involved.

The first item involves transparency. One of the reasons for a lack of candidacy on Tibet from China is that the Chinese feel they are the recipients of attacks that are not grounded in facts and that it is an internal issue. America and other countries need to be more candid as well. I do not feel the real reasons for the attacks on China really have all that much to do with Tibet but a long standing resentment and fear of change and perhaps most of all avoidance of the issues that really matter to the American people that will make a difference. The latter point makes the last thing the American government want - and others with similar agendas, is a satisfying end to this escalation.

Regardless here are the guidelines for bonded fighting:

1. level with each other – be candid

2. to avoid attacks use I/we statements when you can – attacks are assaults on a persons/countries self esteem

3. avoid mixed or double messages – don’t use messages that contradict

4.Choose the time and place carefully – some recommend time for complaints/grievances to be set aside, or fighting by appointment, this gives opponents time to prepare and helps the instigator organize, otherwise be smart when choosing the time to instigate a fight

5.focus anger only on specific issues – focus on the "now" and do not gunnysack/gathering grievances and keeping them secret

6.ask for specific changes but be open to compromise – instigators need to be ready to propose at least one solution, recipients might be able to come up with possible solutions as well, bargaining and negotiation are part of that solution as there are normally several ways to solve a problem

7.Be willing to change yourself – be willing to take action, and acceptance which is the first step in change

8.Don’t try to win – do not compete in fights, Americans socialization is such that everything is seen in winning and loosing. In bonded fighting there are no winners and losers. Loosing diminishes self-esteem. It is more like a dance.

9.Remember to end the argument – fight only about big issues and know how and when to stop fighting.

"This frantic fence-mending is exactly an example of how not to pursue relations with China."

Funny. Provide one example of a Foggy Bottom dweller (or the French, English or Japanese equivalent) who'd agree with this.

A constant state of frantic fence mending is a great description of the State Department China policy and the tact advocated by any "expert".

The well-planned riots in China and well-orchestrated Torch relay distruptions were a wake-up call for Chinese in and outside of that country. The reaction of the Chinese youths to the violence against and humiliation of the Torch, a symbol of their country's coming -of -age achievement, was a shocker to the West also. Personally I think to attach huge symbolic meaning as the Games' host is utter nonsense. I voiced my objection 8 years agao when China was in hot contest to host the Game. I thought to build better infrastructure, to eliminate poverty, to solve social problems and to implément political reforms are more urgent than to host a Game that comes around every four years.
What's the big deal?

Apparently, it is a huge deal for the government and the people. After eight years of diligent preparation and high expectation, the final countdown has begun. I, and millions of other people of goodwill, are obliged to wish them well. Then the riots, protests and counter-protests. Then the biased media coverage , doctored video-tapes, rumored reports of death figures all aimed to demonize China and Chinese. Name-calling bashing even appeared on prime-time tv. The overseas Chinese youths rose in solidarity to meet the onslaught of bad mouths, bad press and bad publicity. A rare sight indeed!

Chinese youths always rose to meet outside challenge when external forces threatening the honor or security of their country. The 1919 May Fourth Movement was a defining moment in the history of modern China. Then in the 1930s when the Japanese militarists invaded China (and l3 other Asian countries)and committed beastly atrocities, millions of youths sacrificed their lives on the battlefield. Then in 1989 in Beijing and many other cities, the youths gathered to demand political reform and democracy.Though the movement failed and ended in bloodshed, it did inspire other youths in other lands (East Europe).

Some commentators describe the current activities of the Chinese young as "awakened nationalism". Nationalism , just like that certain L word, somehow has acquired a dark connotation to
certain groups with certain agenda. All the modern isms started in the 19th century, the so-called age of ideology. Nationalism saved a lot of ethnic groups from the shackles of empires (artificially built and artificially imposed). Later on, it freed the continent of Africa from the yolk of colonizing imperialists. The former slavemasters and former colonialists fear and detest the word Nationalism. Because it unites a people and gives them strength and self-confidence. At the same time I am not in favor of ferverish nationalism, because it may easily degenerate into chauvanism, jingoism, or worse, a hilterian kind of "we are better than thou" killer racism. Thus, I would advise all Chinese youths, believe in the enduring strength of your culture, your history, as well as believe in your own capacity to use that enduring strength and tenacity for the betterment of humanity as a whole.

Concerning transparancy, I think that the criticism that China is not transparant is on target.

I did a little research and learned that recently a Uigher lady was sentenced to 8 years in jail for leaking "state secrets", aparently material already published. This is (on surface) not fair. Because the law is not specific on what "state secret" is, the judges can interpret as they wish. Until China changes this law, judgements involving state secrets can not be trusted.

The main theme is that the laws are not that specific and the judges can then be abitrary and yet claim a judicial process. When important laws are this way, I do not blame westerners and Tibetans for not trusting Chinese rulings.

Now, whether any specific case was ruled fairly or unfairly will always be criticized by foreigners. When the criticism is not fair then the Chinese get upset. So this is a big problem on the Chinese side.

This issue can be resolved by reforming the laws to be well defined and without political overtones. Then the laws must be followed through with no interference from the government. If this can be followed through then China can argue its case much better.

Another aspect of transparancy is the press. Although I favor a more free press I do not trust the foreign press in China. They have shown their bias in too many cases. The solution may be the issuance of licenses to large reputable news organizations whose reporters are held liable for accurate reporting.

I trust reputable international agenecies , such as the UN and the International Red Cross, more than the press. I believe that China will allow the Int Red Cross to inspect any jails in China. I don't know if that is actually happening. In any case China has to open up so that she cannot be accusing of hiding anything.

To Khechok: To simply say "makes absolutely no sense" without stating any reasons truely and absolutely makes no sense, showing no tolerance whatsoever. Todays news says Northwestern University cancelled Rev Wright's honorary degree because of his controversal speeches. That indicates even USA has "no tolerance for open debate and dissenting views."

Thmak makes absolutely no sense. So is GLQ. Sorry, perhaps living too long in the middle-kingdom or haven't been exposed to the outside world that long. So there is no point discussing. Read my previous postings.

For them it's best to follow that imperial edict inscriped on the pillars erected in the ancient capital of Lhasa (still standing today) and Xian during the Tibetan Tubo dynasty and Chinese Tang dynasty respectively in the 7th century AD: "Tibetans will be happy in the great land of Tibet and Chinese will be happy in the great land of China."

I am not sure where Huang stands, so I still have some hope to find some common ground for having a meaningful dialogue on China-Tibet issue.

To Khechok: You said " Back in the 60's shortly after being in exile, a Tibetan constitution was drafted. Then finally about 10 years ago...". It has been 40 some years and Dalai is still the head of state and spiritual leader. A "truely" Democratic system will not allow the head of state to hold office that long. During those period, the head of state in China had changed hands many times. So which is more democratic? I hope you understand.

Khechok: Thanks for reading my post.. You mentioned "transparency and no tolerance for open debate and dissenting views.". You don't define how transparent is transparent. Each country has their own yardstick. One country's yardstick is not applicable for another country. I hope you understand. As you know that murderous riots had happened in Zixang (Tibet). It is obvious for security reason that measures be implemented to prevent further riots from happening. Eavesdropping is one of those measures as is done in USA to prevent any further 9/11 event from happening. There is tolerance for open debate and dissenting views. Of course there is no tolerance for issues that had been resolved just like in any other country. Again it all depends on what the topics are. Inflamatory debates and views are obviously not tolerated in any country such as a KKK rally or support for Al Qaeda. I hope you understand. Of course, there is such people who purposely wants such debates just to get publicity, attention and finacial gain. I hope you understand.

Since u say nationalism is bad,
then Olympics is just as bad as it promotes nationalism.

Living in US for 26 years (not as an American) I know it's no use arguing with them, many of them are right wing xenophobes. Americans all believe whatever they are doing is the greatest, their religion is the only true one, and they all agree when the President wants to bomb another country. US invaded more countries after the WWII than Hitler ever dreamed of. The slogans are Democracy, Freedom, Human Rights, National Security, ... It teamed up with the most repressive regimes and organizations including the Saudis, Bin Laden, Saddam, ... . Iraq is being mopped up and the US congress now wants the poor Iraqis to provide cheap oil for US military! How ironic!!!

The reason the talks will not get anywhere is not because the two sides can't agree on what constitutes Tibet. The reason is that the PRC government is not going to talk to the so called Tibetan government in-exile. It only wants to talk to the Dalai Lama as a private person and treats him as a private citizen, not a head of a government of Tibet. That is, Dalai Lama can go back as a religious leader, not a political leader.

Actually Dalai Lama only represents less than 20% of the Tibetan population that believe in the Gelug school near Lhasa area. To claim to be a leader for all Tibetans is a bit far stretched too.

Once the Dalai Lama caves in to the China's demands, the Chinese government will be going after India's territory Arunachal Pradesh, historically part of Greater Tibet.

Khechok,

You say that in other conflicts at least the press is there, there is better information, and relatives can feel better.

How true is that and how important is that to the suffering people???

In Iraq many independent journalists have been killed, leading many to suspect US dirty play. So now mostly US approved journalists are covering the scene.

I know for a fact that they shoot journalists in the West Bank and Gaza. So very little coverage there.

Practically no one covers Kashmir.

So now you are saying that a family in Gaza, their food spoiled because there is no electricity and they have no more water are afraid to go out for water and food because of fighting is somehow better than a family in Tibet who will be fine if they don't riot?

In fact some children in Gaza do go out for water and the gets a sniper bullet in the head. Just because there may be one or two frightened reporter in Gaza makes no difference at all to the people's situation, or to their relatives information but you seem to think that is the key difference between China nd other conflicts.

Zephon and I and most Chinese know that the minorities in China have been treated fairly in general. In Tibet because of the history and tension the situation may be more harsh, but in reality Tibet is a cakewalk compared to other places.

Yes, I know, you living in the west take democracy as the most important, as they say in the west "its better to die free than live a slave". However, I think that in poorer countries, getting enough to eat and having some security as long as you follow the law is good enough.

However, I do agree that China should be much more transparent. I know that Tibetan exiles tell lies about China and China plays into their hands by not allowing an independent press to cover Tibet and anywhere in China.

China has gone some ways though. China, several years ago, agreed to allow the Red Cross to inspect any jails in China and I presume Tibet as well. (Amazingly, the USA refused giving this privilege to the Red Cross). But China probably will not allow total press freedom because it is a one party system and total press freedom is not compatible with that kind of system. People are not happy with the system but tolerate it. As people get more educated, and as the leaders know that people do not buy simple propaganda the system will change for the better.

On my travels to China I tell the people I meet that China needs to be more transparent. Everything helps.

Right on Jane:-) I concur with you I don't have a clue what is he mumbling about

I guess he is one of those coffee sipping liberal that had too much time

"Part of the problem is that we have way too many vocational intellectuals and way too few real intellects. A vocational intellectual is someone who makes a living writing or talking. Such people tend to live inside their heads. Delusions of grandeur and fantasies about the real world are constant occupational hazards for such people"

I have to accredit the "insightful view for the "Democratically pious and morally righteous" crowd" to Charley Reese, a columnist at lewrockwell.com

No Mr. Jed Clampett, your english is not good. That's why I didn't understand very much about what you were mumbling about and said you were from another planet. Now, it all make sense!

I could care less about what lable you put on your form of government or how choose to name your fiefdom. I've known some very benebolent kingdoms in my time.

My dear Jane, you only assume I am american because I write english well.

Tambien escribo el castellano sin titubear, quiere decir que soy español?

Je ecribe les france aucy, mais je ne sui pas France.

I give myself the right to opine on anything happening on this rock because I am a citizen of earth first and foremost. before you put on your religious dogmas, your class systems, your intense greed or any of the other subterfuges humanity uses to distract itself from it's actual problems.

Our other interlocutor, LAO, interjects another voice into the conversation.
One that seems to be so prevalent with the chinese these days, or at least what is being dumped on the media such as these boards. By no means does anyone in the west; besides the usual minority of the population that buys into any racism, nationalism or any other -ism to justify their selfhatred, equate the Chinese people with their government. We see also in our governments the same type of selfishness, wasteand exploitation.
Evidently, birds of a feather tend to flock together and support each other, otherwise, governments that actualy exploit their population, their environment, their resources and the rest of wildlife would not be able to exist. right?
Humanity has forgotten it's most important raison de etre, to protect it's homeworld. We seem to think we need to tame and defy nature, rather than understand and copy it. But I digress.

LAO seems to think that the only way to righteous change is war, murder, killing. This comes from a sense of self entitlement. He feels that his opinion is right and he must impose it by force if necessary. He supports this by events in his conceived history tell him this is how humanity has always acted, has always resolved it's diferences. This is not true, otherwise great feats of engineering such as the great wall, the potala palace, the great pyramids and Rome's aqueducts would have never been constructed. Only people who are well fed, well clothed and happily employed are able to do such things. Only they could touch those places who were holy and meant to last forever.
Once those societys decided some people were more important than others and started treating the poor like slaves, nature punished them with famine or some other pestilece to make them loose their hold on power.

If we continue to act wrecklessly in all our endeavours. Acting as if the peoples health and happiness doesn't matter, the environment doesn't matter, and wildlife doesn't matter. It will all be taken away from us, and we won't need any stupid nuclear global conflict for it to happen either.

Here is insightful view for the "Democratically pious and morally righteous" crowd:

"Coffee sippers who think it might be a good idea to free Tibet from China are about 58 years too late. China is not going to free Tibet, and Western encouragement of Tibetan resistance will only get people killed needlessly.

Tibet was part of China for centuries. In 1913, when China seemed to be falling apart, the British Empire encouraged Tibet to declare its independence. It did, and that lasted until 1950, when, at the end of the Chinese civil war, China invaded and reclaimed the area. By then, the impotent British Empire was in no position to help anyone even if it had been so inclined. America chose to do nothing.

If you are not willing to make your way to the Tibetan plateau and face Chinese guns and prisons, then you certainly should not sit around some coffee shop and urge Tibetans to do so. Tibet is a strategic area of China, and the Chinese government is not going to give it up or grant it independence or even autonomy. To paraphrase a famous outlaw, it is enough that we know that China will do what it has to do.

As for us, we should do nothing. Tibet is part of China, and what happens there is an internal affair of China. The rest of the world has no right to interfere, and other than bloviating for a while, I seriously doubt that it will. Unfortunately, in this age of global communications even bloviating can cause bad things to happen to people.

Boycotting the Olympics is a foolish idea by a tiny minority of fanatics. The Olympics have nothing to do with Tibet, just as they had nothing to do with the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. Boycotting the games would be a cruel blow to athletes who have been sweating and training for four years. It would accomplish nothing. It would further politicize the games, which should be encouraged to return to their amateur status.

China was awarded the Summer Games in a fair international competition and has spent a lot of money getting ready for them. Any attempt to spoil the games will do a great disservice to the athletes, the Chinese government and the Chinese people. It will do nothing positive and will only harden attitudes and end up making the world even more dangerous than it already is.

Americans in particular should keep in mind that we are currently engaged in mismanaging two occupations of two countries that we illegally invaded. Neither enterprise is going well. Neither is our economy. In short, we have enough on our own plate without trying to steal a bite off of China’s plate. We should make sure that Afghanistan and Iraq are the last wheezes of the sick American Empire and shut it down and return to our republic.

I don’t know why some Americans seem to have trouble realizing that the days of the European empires are over. Part of the problem is that we have way too many vocational intellectuals and way too few real intellects. A vocational intellectual is someone who makes a living writing or talking. Such people tend to live inside their heads. Delusions of grandeur and fantasies about the real world are constant occupational hazards for such people.

No country in the world has to do what we tell it to do. Certainly that’s the case with the big powers like China, Russia, Japan and India. As you can see every day in your morning paper, even a little country like Iraq can cause us more trouble than it’s worth. It’s a crime against humanity that our sons and daughters are dying in the desert dust while fat politicians cavort about in Washington. Don’t encourage Tibetans to die in some futile fantasy about independence. They are not independent. They are part of China, and part of China they will stay."

To: Jed Clampett

You don't sound like you are living on the same planet as the Chinese. Why are you talking so much useless nonsense? If you are so kind, would you please mind the business of your own country and make America a better place to live for us Chinese Americans who are suffering so much discrimination today. Don't you think our children deserve it?

Today a group of Native Hawaiians took over the Iolani palace in Hawaii demanding independence and sovereignty, their "elected head of state", Mahealani Kahau, declared they do not recognize Hawaii as a US state ...

Well I was just waiting for things such as this to happen after Americans, British, Germans, and French governments, politicians, and media outlets came out in strong support for the violent riots in Tibet. At least foreign nations did not send their money, weapons and intelligence agents to train the Hawaiians in terrorism like the CIA did in Tibet.

I just wish the Americans would treat our own ethnic groups and minorities with as much respect as the Chinese do.

What the British and then Americans did to many of these people that were here long before Western Europeans came is disgraceful. Literally the largest genocide in human history. Mexico City had a population of Paris before the Spanish arrived.

We should do more to help protect American cultures. To this day museums in England have a large portion of the cultural artifacts from Hawaii. Though Capt. Cook was murdered there, he often would take Hawaiian kings for ransom. Then the Americans came and took the land away and gave it to big corporations and missionaries...

Of course I think the idea of a separate and independent Hawaii that is no longer part of the USA is ludicrous. As is the same idea with Tibet. But if we respected and took care of Hawaiian and other native American cultures like the Chinese do with their over 50 ethnic cultures we would have a better argument when complaining about human rights in other countries. The Polynesian cultural center in Oahu is a farce - more like Disneyland.

At least these demonstrators were truly peaceful. I hope they remain that way. It would be a tragedy if they went downtown in Waikiki and started burning buildings and murdering innocent people like they did in Tibet.

And the native Hawaiians I have come in contact with love to fight. I had to take actions to avoid violence several times there; I would hate to ever have to hurt someone in defense of others.

Dream on I for once never belief that The Elite will overthrown the CCP. Even the TAM protester now solidly line up behind the goverment and Wake Up from their naive believe in Democracy as panacea for all the ill, China doesn't need confirmation, applaud by the west.

China will become democray when the time is ripe and it is for themselves to decide when. Outsider has no bussiness to meddle in. What bind China is not nationalism but shared vision of better life and better China. and the love for their motherland Here is passages from Sascha Muszak "blunted sword"

It is not nationalism that holds China together as much as a shared vision of the future that is continually reinforced by economic, social, and political advances. To question this vision is to risk being branded a traitor.

It is a deep irony that China is accused of lacking spirituality, a belief system that binds the nation together. There is no religion that holds sway over the Chinese people, and there is no belief in "democracy and universal values."

There is a belief in China, an archaic and – to those of us in post-nation-state countries –incomprehensible and backward faith in the abstract notion of "Us, Ourselves."

Although the pro-China demonstrations are the work of a small minority in China – the educated, urbanized youth – the vision is held by all, from the struggling taxi driver to the peasant to the big boss. It is the right of every Chinese to criticize the government over mahjong and tea.

But dig a little under any Chinese exterior and you will discover a bottomless well of love and pride in China – the history, culture, language, food, women, and the land itself.

maybe, maybe not. these things don't happen in any predetermined manner. The czars never realized how or why they were so despised. They isolated themselves so much from the common people that they failed to realize when those around them had mismanaged the economy and resources so badly that famine was the only possible outcome. The people, under the pressure of famine and extreme poverty, eventually took to arms and deposed the dictators, the totalitarian sons of greed that made themselves wealthy while their nation starved. Same in the french revolution and american revolution.

Sinna is a special case. They have learned to make some people prosperous enough to look down upon others and think themselves elite, created a virtual caste system. That is easy to do when you control the media and every nuance that is presented within it. At this point, the government has used the media to incite such fervor and nationalism that if they said tomorrow that 15 han babies had been sacrificed by tibetan monks, they could get people to enlist en masse to go invade and comit genocide in the highlands and anywhere else a buddhist might hide.
That is the way it works. It has been doing it for millenia, now it has the tools to spread it's disinformation much easier. As you can see from these posts. There are many willing to repeat and proliferate any rumor, regarless of how implausible or outright insane it might be. It doesn't matter how true it is, it only matters how you can make others believe it, once they accept the implausible, you can feed them anything and the truth is muddled. The PLA learned that lesson well from WWII and have been implementing that philosophy as much as possible.

Yes, the situation is precarious. The machine wants to send the ME conflict global and every indication seems to point in that it will be successful. Those that can prevent it are remaining silent and inactive for some reason. Meanwhile, those working for their own interests and against humanity in general, are busy as ever and enjoying a popularity unequaled in history.
I guess that's what happens when you allow a demon to control media interests in several markets and several countries even.
Disinformation and manipulative imagery can be disseminated over large sections of the population, globaly, and almost instantly.

I sense that there are those in China that recognize their plight. They work like crazy and barely get ahead. They pay insane prices for necessities and nothing seems to be done to actually improve the 'quality of life'.
This is happening everywhere.
But in China even the environment shows evidence of the uncaring nature of their leaders. Beijing 2008 will be known as the wheezing olympics. Only those who have trained in the smog will be able to compensate for it.
Those in China who have talents and have given up on waiting for a hero to rescue them will start using their skills to change the mindset from the roots. And the leaders will be unable to stop it. If they resist or oppose it, they will be crushed, if they listen and assimilate, they could ride a powerful wave to peace and prosperity. Otherwise, they will hatefuly destroy the world for their own selfish desires.

To Thmak, Huang

I am not going to argue about the type of system and what's best for each country.

Absolutely the biggest problem with the current PRC system is complete lack of transparency and no tolerance for open debate and dissenting views.

Everything is state-secret and in this environment, it's very difficult to find the truth. There is really no check/balance on the governance. You know if the leaders are Jesus or Buddha, then sure we will believe them to be honest and doing good for the society but they are humans and have all the problems that Buddhist talk and analyze so well about the inner problems everyone has.

I am not sure how you can have a just society without full transparency and tolerance for open debate which is so much lacking.

So folks like Hmong and other PRC apologists, or perhaps too much nationalism (love for the country) then any critism is considered an attacked on the country.

For example, these folks accuse the media of bias, Tibetans of lying about the conditions, # of deaths and human rights violations in Tibet. Yet, Tibet is COMPLETELY CLOSED OFF OR LOCKDOWN to outside monitors and foreign media.

Sure I admit some reporting may not be accurate but until PRC allows unfettered access to media and outsiders, how can we verify what's reality in Tibet.

The control system that CCP has perfected is unbelievable with secret police, informants, fear, technology they are able to lock-down Tibet.

I have relatives in Tibet. First thing they told us after the recent unrest is 'we are OK, please don't call us at all at this time'. They are fearful since there is heavy security, phones are tapped and people are taken away at night time.

Yet Tibetans in Tibet are unbelievable brave. Some of them take the risk to call to report the repressive measures, deaths, imprisonment. You know staging a peaceful protest is risking a life unlike protests outside Tibet. Even in Nepal where you see pictures of police beating Tibetan monks, I am really not too worried, as I know they will be released after a day or perhaps a couple of weeks without consequences, but in Tibet and I am China, your life is ruined after a few years of sentence.

In terms of information, I am in IT and quite amazed the sophistication of the technology deployed. You can get to the website but not the content eg. Dalai Lama or Tibetan independence, Faung Gong, Taiwan Independence.

I know China apologist will not believe or choose not believe. So this 223 Tibetans shot dead (yes increased from 140) by the military force with the recent uprising, you are right the only way to validate is allow international monitors and media in now.

What is China hiding in Tibet as access to Tibet has been restricted for 50 years and now completely lock-down.

Let the Tibetans in Tibet have a voice and let's hear their grievances and see if you think these 'Chinese Tibetan' are happy.

In all the other conflicts in middle-east Palestine, Afganistan, Irag, Darfur, Checniya, Zimbabwe, Kashmir, media has access to these conflict zones to report as we see pictures/videos and the citizens seem to have freedom to protest. Exception might be Burma and North Korea but that's dictator and oppression on its own people.

With Tibet it's an occupation of a foreign power with absolute control. Yet the struggle has been totally non-violent so far with China unwilling to hear or address the Tibet grievances. That's why the world is enraged!

The very few Tibetan exiles are the spokesperson of the Tibetans in Tibet. We will continue to make noise peacefully/non-violent for now until Tibetans are treated better and justice is served. You know once Tibet issue is resolved amicably that is mutually acceptable (win-win), I think less than half, say 50,000 will return, which is a drop in the bucket, so it's not exile Tibetan issue. It's the Tibetans in Tibet who are crying for help. The exile Tibetans are doing just fine in the free-world and lot better than Tibetans in Tibet.

Until China opens up Tibet for outside monitors and give media unfettered access, China is guilty as charged.

To Jed It will never happened read this article from Antiwar.com. If anything the constant villifaction unite Chinese all over the world as never before since the WW II according to United News in Singapore

We in the West expect China to make a Great Leap Forward from Communist dictatorship to placid European philanthropist, eschewing all modes of governance in between. However, this new China is a state like any other, with disgruntled minorities, passionate youth, desperate workers, and glitzy businessmen. There is no fundamental difference between China and any other nation. It is this reality that the West is grappling with: the mundane fact that China will survive and carry on with its own development no matter what happens.

When the protests in Tibet and the resulting media storm failed to bring about substantial introspection – in fact the exact opposite – the West then focused on its last straw: the double-edged sword of Chinese nationalism, double-edged in that patriotic youth conspiring over the Internet to boycott Carrefour may also one day conspire over the Internet to overthrow the Communist Party.

Allow me to dispel these wild hopes and dreams. Short of winning a nuclear war with China, Tibet will never be independent and will most likely never enjoy the "true autonomy" the Dalai Lama has been working toward all his life. The youth of China will not overthrow their government. China is not going to fall apart under a barrage of news reports.

I guess it's intransigent and unwieldy when forced with diplomatic attempts at redress. do you know what that means? China's government of criminals must be the target of regime change. Freedom loving people must work to undermine, villify and eventually convince the people that a government that allows party officials to make themselves rich of the proletariats suffering must not be allowed to prosper, much less gather more power. The chinese people must liberate themselves, as they did with the imperialistic powers of before. Do the chinese people know why Chairman Mao was able to move the peasants against the oligarchy? because they were oppressed, exploited and forced to live in squallor. How can the communist party leaders enjoy luxury cars, businesses funded by the government and expense accounts many times the average chinese citizen? because they don't care about much else than their own needs and desires, all else can go to hell... if there is a worse hell than what they are having to endure.

To Khechok: The criteria that judge a government is not whether it is democratic or one-party authoritarian state but whether it does govern for the goodness of its people. There are democratic governments that cause devastation in the world such as Germany and its allies during WII. There are democratic countries that are more like a one-party authoritarian, such as Egypt. There are democratic countries that behave like an imperialistic country like USA. So being democratic does not mean it is perfect and good for the commn people. I hope you underatand. The Hong Kong system is compromised when Hong Kong is under British rule. Zixang (Tibet) is now effectively governed by China. Transfering the exile system to Zixang means invading and complete taking over Zixang by the exile government. This is obviously unacceptable and wishful thinking. If Dalai is really sincere about separation of politics and religion, he can do it now to demonstrate whether the system works or not. Also claiming freedom of religion is entirely politics. Again examples are abound that indicate clearly democratic system is not guaranteed to be a perfect system for the well being of the populace. I hope you understand. Since Dalai is not governing Zixang ,it is ridiculus to say Dalai "he will gladly hand-over complete political control over the local Tibetan administration in Tibet.". "Tibetan Autonomous and Prefecture regions under one administration which are currently divided...." is daydream. Once upon a time, catholicism was under the rule of the Pope. Later, it was disintegrated by Martin Luther's teaching into various sects. Are you suggesting to the Pope that all God-fearing people must be "under one administration which are currently divided amongst" so many religious sects and spread all over the world. I hope you understand.

To Lawrence,

Sorry I don't think I answered your other question on the role of religion in future Tibet.

Very good questions. I would say let's first resolve the fundamental issues. Then we can talk about governance. Obviously when PRC is currently non-democratic, one-party authoritarian state, I think you should ask these questions to the PRC. After PRC becomes truly democratic then we can talk about other rights and the role of Tibetan Buddhism.

If we are talking about true independent Tibet, then it will be based on Tibetan in-exile system that is currently in-place which is based on western democray, multi-pary, separation of state and religion. One of the biggest achievements of the 14th Dalai Lama that he is very proud of is that he has truly given a functioning democracy. Back in the 60's shortly after being in exile, a Tibetan constitution was drafted. Then finally about 10 years ago, the exile Tibetan diaspora community elect the political head i.e. Prime Minister who look after all the governance. DL is currently head of state and of course spiritual head. If you have heard him say, he is currently semi-retired political head of state. When he says he will resign, he is then talking about giving up political leadership.

In an autonomy Tibet, under PRC's agreement and if the masters in Beijing allow it, like Hong Kong model, Tibetan will implement a form of democracy based on exile system.

So we do have a working HongKong system, that is acceptable to follow.

DL said on record that as soon as there was settlement on Tibet, he will gladly hand-over complete political control over the local Tibetan administration in Tibet.

As for future Tibet, I see a secular state with separation of Religion and Politics. The recent Tibetan history moved from Theocracy to Communism and looks natural to progress towards Democracy but that's dependent not much on what Tibetans want but more on what the masters in Beijing want the future China and Tibet to be.

In a way, closest analogy is to the Catholic religion.

Although much smaller there are Tibetan buddhist all over the world and more importantly in traditional regions such as Mongolia, Nepal, India, I see Dalai Lama becoming like Pope stricly as spiritual head that Tibetan Buddhists look up to for moral directions.

Sure keep in touch at bodpa123@hotmail.com if you share the dream of future 'free' or autonomous Tibet within PRC.

This is the most ridiculous suggestion that I have heard. Tibet has the no right whatsoever on Amdo than China has on Singapore. To begin Tibet never exercise Administration authority over Amdo It has always been Chinese Teritory

Just because there are many Tibetan live in Amdo,It will automatically mean souvereignity over Amdo. It remind me of anschluss of Sudeten land. China will never agree to it period.

And since when majority has to speak the language of minority?. How many american able to speak Spanish in Calinfornia? No country in the world will agree on migration restriction inside their own teritory autonomous or not

Lawrence,

Now we are talking some substance instead of disputable historical quagmire in the middle-kingdom that both sides have their own version of history.

I responded to you about the reasons behind all Tibetan Autonomous and Prefecture regions under one administration which are currently divided amongst 5 Provinces. So if the PRC govt is sincere in the Tibetan cultural/religious protection as per their constitution, then it's in the best interest of both sides to combine all under one. I hope you understand the logic and don't get incredulous about the 1/4 size of China and wrongly accusing of separating from the PRC.

So the second question, you raised is some kind of prohibition of non-Tibetan people from settling these regions and worst some have said removal of non-Tibetans from this so-call 'greater Tibet' and calls it 'ethnic cleansing'. Some have quoted the 5 point proposal in 1987 that Dalai Lama presented at EU Strousbourg. That's wrong interpretation.

Not true about this population transfer. However, it is true that we need to check and control the migration to Tibet due to cultural, fragile environment protection reasons.

Furthermore, Tibetans welcome any Chinese to settle in Tibet who respect Tibetan culture/language and spiritual tradition. As I have said there are a few million in mainland who fit in this category and I have met many of these. They are of course, well educated, well-off living in the major Chinese cities. That's what I heard from Dalai Lama's speech recently.

For others who despised and looked down on the Tibetans as backward, unhygienic and culture not worth savings, then why would anyone want to live on this barren 13,000 feet land. Unfortunately, the latter fits in the majority of the current 7 million Chinese population in all of Tibet. As I have said before, I am yet to meet one Chinese who can speak and read Tibetan. Yet I see many Tibetans who can't speak Tibetan fluently in Tibet.

I do appreciate the opportunity to explain.

At this time, I don't think PRC is sincere and this type of discussion I don't think has come up as serious discussion between the two sides.

If there is a political will from the PRC side to resolve this problem, I think Tibetans under Dalai Lama will leave no stone unturn to come to mutually agreeable solution.

I think the PRC is waiting for the demise of the Dalai Lama and hoping that the problem will go away over time. I think that's a dangerous strategy and one of many failed policies that PRC CCP have implemented.

If I was the PRC leaders, I rather make a deal with one strongman (i.e. Dalai Lama) who has so far has an exemplary record of honesty, decency etc and most respected in the world than many weak individuals with various agendas and directions.

To Khechok,

The problem with the greater Tibet is the other positions of His Holiness in his proposal. One of the most troublesome is his position that measures to be taken so that the migration of Han and Muslim population into the greater Tibet is blocked. I would concede that these migrations have to potential to dilute the Tibetan culture and tradition. However, Amdo and eastern Kham are on the outer rim of the Tibetan culture sphere and these regions had switched hands many times historically. What HH is asking for seems to be that non-Tibetan populations barred from these border areas. This stand troubles me because the freedom of choosing where to live is one of the basic rights in a modern democratic society.
Another troublesome issue is the combination of religion and politics. By tradition, HH is both the religious and political authority for Tibetans. Would Buddhism be the state religion in an independent or truly autonomic Tibet? How would the rights of people who believe in other religion be protected in Tibet?
I would suggest that you read the comments of BERTRAND ON ETHNIC NATIONALISM.

Spot-on, Jed! As you so often are!

Then there are others that love China and it's people so much that they are wiling to risk life and liberty to criticize and bring to light the injustices being perpetrated upon the chinese people by a few egotistical, self absorbed men driven by greed and a lust for power. these are the brave souls who stand proud in the face of the dragon and calls it by it's evil name.

Nationalism and especially ethnic-nationalism (nationalism based upon race and blood) is a rather archaic, often racist, and clearly reactionary form of political thought. When one thinks about ethnic-nationalism, one can't help but think about Nazi Germany and more recently the brutal war that split up what was the former Yugoslavia.

Therefore, it is rather ironic and shocking to see so many in the West under the banner of liberalism advocating for Tibetan nationalism, cheering and fanning the flame for ethnic separation rather than for universal human rights in China as a whole.

Nationalism by its very nature is irrational and tribal. It's about separation of human beings, it's about arbitrary divisions, and it's about selective historic memories. Thus, as far as this author's opinion is concerned, less is better.

So I urge anyone who fancies himself/herself as a progressive or a liberal to think twice before jumping on the "Free Tibet" bandwagon. What exactly are you championing for? Are you championing for further division of people based upon ethnicity and racial lines?(i.e. only when we all live in ethnically and racially "pure" countries, can we have peace and justice.) Or are you championing for more human rights? If that is in fact the case, then say that, say "I am for more human rights for all Chinese citizens-that includes all ethnicities in that country: Hans, Mongols, Koreans, Huis, Tibetans..." After all, if the British and the Spanish are given the opportunity to work out their national crisis with respect to their restless ethnic minorities in Northern Ireland and the Basque Region without the hysterical and juvenile "Free Northern Ireland" and "Free Basque" bumper stickers, why isn't the Chinese being accorded with the same courtesy?

Ah, but you say, China has an undemocratic government. But let's think logically for a moment; does the fact that a country has an undemocratic government at a particular moment in its history somehow justify the rest of the world getting on a particularly high horse and in a rather ironic way, using that supposedly moral high ground to fan and promote ethnic divisions within that country to break it into little pieces? I think not.

Ah, but you further argue, look at how the Chinese government has send in so many soldiers into Tibet, with GUNS!! Yes, I hate soldiers, guns, and nationalism just as much as the next liberal. But in a world where the notion of a nation and nationhood still exists, would the national government of any other nation react any differently if people from one of its provinces decided to unilaterally declare independence or go on a riot in support of one? Therefore, should we in the West impose a double standard on the Chinese nation because we find their current form of government not to our liking. Isn't that just a tad bit hypocritical?

Not to worry. Westerners are not unthinking homogenous automatons.

In fact, many Westerners like China and have chosen to live and work there.

Some will hate China due to an unfortunate DNA defect. Just feel sorry for their parents.

The rest of them, the majority, are indifferent, treating China like any other country.

There are someone who hate China and anything related to this country. You can see some of them here. No matter what say and what you do, as long as you say China also has good things, you'll offend them. Since you've been in the West for quite long time, you should have some idea how such mindsets are created. So you may leave them alone.

There are also someone are pointing out China's faults based on their conscienceness, they hope China become free,open,democrate. No matter what are their instinct aims, they are China's friends, although most of them have limited knowledge and ability to imagine how complex to resolve all china's problems while maintaining the stability of this country. And they don't know how important for a country with 1.3 billion people is to keep social stability.

As Mr Pomfret has said, the Chinese government's talk with the Dalai Lama is not expected to be fruitful, as neither side wants to give in one inch.

The Tibetan government in exile is basically demanding Beijing to agree to all their terms, which is amounting to an unconditional surrender, leaving no room for negotiation.

As Mr Pomfret has said, the Chinese government's talk with the Dalai Lama is not expected to be fruitful, as neither side wants to give in one inch.

The Chinese government is basically demanding the Dalai Lama to agree to all their terms, which is amounting to an unconditional surrender, leaving no room for negotiation.

I am continuing into this theme I found earlier, that somehow the Tibet issue is not quite right.

Instead of diverting from the topic I hope that I am actually setting the bigger picture for the topic.

Consider the other feuds around the world, such as Cyprus, N Ireland, Kashmir and Israel.

A brief look:
1. N. Ireland: The Protstants are immigrants from England who controls the politics and economics of N Ireland and treat the Catholic natives as 2nd class citizen who are blazenly discriminated. Yearly festivals celebrate the defeat of the Catholics during the Protestant invasion.
2. Kashmir: Here 90% of the people are Muslims but are governed by basically a Hindu government. They want independence but have lost more than 100,000 lives in a struggle with government forces. If there is a place with a lot of indiscrimant killings, rapes and torture, it is Kashmir. Much of the blame is on the government but the militants are no angels either.
3. Israel: We are all familiar with this conflict. A militant fires a bullet or a rocket and soon gunships and tanks open up on the population and soon scores of civilians are killed.

I was at the Earth Day Fair and there was a big FREE TIBET booth with activists handing out Tibetan info. If you think abiut it, the curious thing is that there are no Free N Ireland booths, no Free Kashmir booths and no free Gaza booths!

What is going on? Is it that certain protest are encouraged but others are frowned upon? People focus on Tibet and Dafur and Zimbabwe because China is involved?

Is the emphasis on Tibet so natural, or is it not so natural?

Why are there little or no debates on these other issues?

Khechok,

I am still here on and off. I am quite busy usually.

Another reason I am not responding so much is maybe a kind of disappointment.

Here is what you wrote:

"I think Huang is demanding an apology from the Tibetans to the Chinese people the pain, suffering and problems that Tibetans inflicted on the Chinese people."

That is a cocky kind of response to my very serious talk about you trivializing Han deaths but mourn hypothetical Tibetan deaths. Another sign that you think the topic has one one right side, your side.

Sure, after my protests you add a sentence or two that you "understand" Chinese suffering but that leaves me not totally convinced.

I am a minority of Hans who want to follow through the Dalai Lama's program, that of getting autonomy, stopping and reversing Han immigration, preserving Tibetan culture and preserving the natural environment.

I tell my Chinese friends "DON'T bad mouth the Dalai Lama". I tell them that they should not be cocky toward Tibetans after the imperialism that China went through with westerners and Japan.

Do you know what? MY FRIENDS TURN AROUND THEIR ATTITUDES, THE MORE COCKY ONES BECOME MUTE. From that I see that a lot of Chinese people can be reasonable. They in turn influence other people.

When I debate Tibetans I get a sense that they could not care less about China. They have no sense, unlike the Manchus, Mongolians, Huis, that we are all in this together. Now I could be wrong and that some Tibetans have some patriotism. But I sense very little of it. They will find that when Hans are taught real facts about minorities they can be quite open. People are prejudiced when they have no contact or good information but once they get the information they will be more open.

When Tibetans get on the net, they get supported by westerners, many of whom are crude and prejudiced. These two will then spill their hateful bile about China and Hans and much of that is unreasonable. Tibetans think that they are just making a strong case when in truth, China holds the cards and they need to be less hateful and be more honest and humble.

Certainly Chinese posters are also hateful at times, but my experience is that if we debate from a perspective of mutual respect, then big understandings can occur.

Zephon:

You are the very few understand how religion works in China.

I am not religious, but my personal experience may help some reader.

I came to USA 27 years ago, and was intersting to know more about relijon. I went to a church ( first baptist i believe ). A gentleman handed me a little booklet, in it contained the stayment: If you don't believe in Jesus, you will be burned in hell. I laughed, politely handed back the same little boolet to the same gentleman, walked out of that church, never looked back and never curious about relijion again.

Zephon,

You said, apparently in response to my last post:

"No it should be clear to everyone as it is me that not only are your positions weak but when found as so you:

"1) Call anyone that disagrees with you Chinese, an automaton, someone that can only spout the party line, etc..."

This is certainly how you come across.

"2) If that is not good you resort to name calling"

Sorry if I called you a name.

"3) And if that is still not good enough you get into spelling and grammar errors"

Well, I have to admit, you do sound an awful lot like one of them, "white guy":)!

"Your arguments are weak hence you resort to the above."

No, my arguments are sound. You simply can't, or aren't allowed to back down.

One more time. Listen. You appear to have some perverse and compulsive need to make the Tibetan issue ultra complicated, by bringing up extensive versions of history, in order to justify the indefensible way Totalitarian China has oppressed Tibet, so that T.C.C.'s continuance on this brutal and souless path can be "rationalized". You and other defenders of T.C.C. make specious analogies with Western missdeeds, such as Iraq, while brushing aside the fact that this administration is one that most here that were eligible to vote, did not vote for; moreover, we plainly don't support the Iraq War. As far as past Western misdeeeds, our democratic system has made material progress in addressing these. As for our present tragedy, Iraq, both Democratic candidates have said they will end it. As for China's current situation?

In my humble opinion, Tibet is the home of a distinct people with a distinct culture, who have lived there a long time, and simply desire their freedom; it's a desire all decent and moral humans understand. They don't want T.C.C.'s "help", so why can't T.C.C. just leave them alone, or at least grant them autonomy. T.C.C. has acted like a bully.

You also mention, "Yes the truth must hurt you otherwise you would use much better tactics than these lame ones. Sorry to be an American Patriot and someone that really knows what that means."

Well, frankly, what you stand for is about as un-American as exists. We fought to have a free press, freedom of religion, worker rights, minority rights. China??

When I listen to your endless dissebling b.s., it sounds exactly like all the other Totalitarian propoganda from places like the U.S.S.R., and North Korea.

"And yes I can go on like this all day instead of discussing Tibet since you have nothing to say there."

Yeah, we know, Windy. I'm just a part-time "patriot".

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.
George Bernard Shaw

As for the 1000-3000 yearly Tibetan refuges, the majority of them are pilgrims and education migrants,as you can see from quotes from M.A.Jones in a PBS discuttion:
"That's why, in fact, the overwhelming majority of Tibetans who enter India as so-called "refugees" are young. For example, according to figures cited in the Tibet Bulletin of May-June 2005, children under 13 made up 20.58% of the total number of Tibetan refugees who entered India between the months of January to August, 2004. Those aged between 14-25 made up 40.23% of the total - so 61.21% were aged 25 or under.

As noted by P. Klieger et.al, in a study titled "Tourism, Politics and Relocation in Tibet", published in the December 31, 1988 edition of Cultural Survival Quarterly, many exiles, even back then, returned frequently on temporary trips "without renouncing their status as refugees or as patriots." Among the motivations for returning to Tibet, which were based on interviews with many young Tibetans in south Asia and Nepal, "were (1) to reaffirm their identity as Tibetans by visiting their homeland and (2) to make money as individual entrepreneurs, tour guides, 'culture brokers' and tradespeople in the booming foreign tourist market....Being largely adept in English and the history of Tibet according to the Tibetan government-in-exile" made them "eminently qualified for these tasks. Returning refugees, indeed, became native agents who could successfully compete with the Chinese in the development of tourism in Tibet, serving as an alternative to the Chinese historical propaganda aimed at these foreign visitors. Working in the tourist trade in Tibet, then, became not only an economic activity but an act of patriotism as well."

Those older, poorer Tibetans who face few promising economic prospects in their homeland, are happy to agree to send their children to India for a free education on the promise that their children will return better equipped to make a living. The Indian journalist Mohammed Ahmedullah has interviewed many Tibetan refugees: "Some of the escaped Tibetans I spoke with," he reported, "gave me the impression that their escape had been financed by someone else - perhaps the government-in-exile. Otherwise, how could poor peasants who earn less than a dollar a day raise the $150-250 it costs to pay for their escape?" he wrote in an article for the March-April 2000 edition of the Atomic Scientists.

So, we can see now roughly how it all works. As Klieger notes, "approximately 100,000 Tibetan refugees in India and Nepal have received nearly three decades of financial support from the West to maintain their institutions and identity in exile. Refugees have tended to accommodate this outside support within a traditional patron-client relationship (mchod-yon) that historically defined not only the responsibility of the Buddhist laity to maintain and protect the monasteries, but the ideal relationship between the ecclesiastic Tibetan state and the outside world as well. At the highest level, this outside support also defined the relationship between Tibet and the Chinese Empire during much of the Mongol and Manchu periods."

So the West, as Klieger point outs, through the agency of foreign aid, "has become the new 'patron' of the Tibetan government-in-exile. Although donors probably did not intend for this modern humanitarian aid to fuel Tibetan nationalism, because it is coextensive with the traditional practice of patronage, exile institutions and individual refugees have largely interpreted it as such."
"

criminals always like to hide behid a lack of evidence, even to the extent of making the evidence dissapear, just ask Cheney and Rove where their emails are.

Well, perhaps the ministry isn't feeding you the truthful information. but you are ignoring all the valid points... why would they risk everything, including being murdered by border guards to escape china?

did you find any YAKS in the altiplano yet? :D

:D

An american seeing images that were only broadcast in chinese television's 'propaganda tv'... interesting.

You keep jumping back to the recent riots and ignoring half a century of oppression, pal... what's worse, when you refuse to recognize it when it is happening to others, you won't realize it when it happens to you... till it's too late of course.

There is no evidence that the Chinese were murdering Chinese Tibetans. I looked at some pictures that could have been taken at anytime by anyone posted by the exile group. Saw them post numbers as well that were unbelieveable. I see numbers without names places and cause of death and I get suspicious. You obviously take anything that is said that supports your weak position and post it.

The statistics state that about 20 people died in the most recent riots. Of those I could confirm the deaths of mostly innocent civilians and one policeman. It is my understanding a few Buddhist priests committed suicide instead of being arrested as well. I believe several were also killed when they stormed government buildings that were protected by the police. They were shot. I have no evidence of any Tibetans murdered by Chinese authorities in this most recent round of violent riots in Tibet.

Signed
American Patriot and holder of freedom and peace for all of humanity!!!!

In all my lifetimes and all the times I've visited my early home in machu pichu, I've never seen or heard yaks in the region. Now,they might survive in the plains at lower altitudes, but up high, only the llamas can make it.

Hey american traitor, traitor to humanity...

If the situation is so rosy and beneficial to the tibetan people, why does china feel the need to kill them, even women and children, as they try to make their escape out of the country towards nepal?
Why are so many people so desperate to go out into the great unknown and face the dangers of leaving family and friends behind?
Could it be that their situation is so dismal that the prospect of death while trying to escape is acceptable rather than continue to live in the indignity and squallor?

One of the reasons why religion is so tightly controlled in China has to do with Western Missionaries ventures in during the 19th Century.

These missionaries were destroying and taking over other religious cultural artifacts, buildings and temples native to the people and many ethnic religions of China.

The Boxer revolution fought against these missionaries.

And ever since China has a steadfast policy that religion and state are separate and the religious entities will be controlled by the government but left alone as long as they do not interfere with the government.

Hence one of the long standing reasons why westerner's and our media tend to denigrate the way China handles religious entities.

To this day the Pope in Rome wants the power to select Bishop's in China. China says NO!

Falun gong, chi worshipers, and a native majority way of thought, tried to maneuver themselves into political power. When found they were disbanded and outlawed.

In China you are free to practice your religion as long as it does not get in the way of the overall greater need of the people of China. Do not involve your religion in politics and follow a few basic rules and you are free to belief as you wish.

What's wrong Jed. Cannot open your mind to the fact that China sends it's Tibetan Scholars to Peru to study Yak husbandry. Among other problems with your diatribe.

Here is one article from Peru with Chinese, Peruvian and Chilean scholars all working on what.... Yak husbandry.

Sorry to blow your twisted balloon again. I am sure there is quite a bit more research out there between these peoples on Yaks. Sorry your mind cannot reach that far.

inrm.cip.cgiar.o*rg/home/publicat/0304nrm.pdf

Sorry had to take out the http and make org o*rg or this website censors the post

I'm sure there are alot of yaks in Chile and Peru... they used to chill with the Llamas. :D

you are getting more and more ridiculous. While the great deceiver can twist any issue to it's own devices, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

For any culture other than 'none' to receive any assistance from the central government, it must first renounce any fialty or religion previously held.
The 'preservation of culture' in modern chinese parlance, means keeping the artifacts and language of the conquered region. If it's historical accounts containg anything that could be construed as contrary to the party line is destroyed.

Of course, being little more than a traind parrot of the ministry, you would need to insert a comment about native americans and their plight, to discredit and 'embarrass' the american government... rather strange coming from an 'american born and raised who love sports and women' :D Hillarious hypocrecy. I bet even the 'women' part is a lie, the machines are typically deviant because of their distance from nature.

Buddhist monks are paid to pray, if they pray what the beast wants it to. There is no true free religion in China, when the Panchen sits imprisoned while an imposter is paraded around to establish chinese legitimacy, then it is evident that the actions do not match the words.

This is the definition of the great deceiver. the beast that consumes all it comes in contact with. The enemy of humany and earth. That which holds so many of us hostage to their selfish, greedy whims.

China does quite a bit to preserve the distinct (over 50) ethnic cultures in the country. I have been mostly interested in the Tibetans and Hmong.

Part of this work is the preservation of languages and books. Tibetan scholars from around the world recognize the work in preserving these in Tibet. And they frequently speak out against the common western media speech that says otherwise.

I also recently watched how a Tibetan native was trained in Yak husbandry (I think China sent her to Chile, may have been Peru) so that she could go back to Tibet and help the native people there in that agrarian lifestyle.

Perhaps most importantly many Tibetan Buddhist monks are payed to pray, read and teach their religion by the Central Chinese government. This includes maintenance of the monasteries in Chinese Tibet.

I wish Americans would do half as much to preserve the native American cultures. Alaskans, Indians have a horrible suicide rate. Partly because of their loss of culture.

The one thing that Tibetan Buddhists will face is a decline in the relevance of the religion. This type of thing is happening around the world with most all traditional religions. As such there is a backlash as they no longer are in a position of prestige and power that they might have once had.

Regardless, I salute those in China helping to maintain and restore culture there. Respect for cultural diversity is indeed one of the hallmarks of a great human civilization. And we can learn quite a bit from China in this regards.

I read a report from an Eritrean diplomat who went on a mission to China to learn just how they did this. He was quite impressed and expected that the knowledge in keeping the ethnic cultures intact would help his own nation.

Now that is how a country can become a world leader!

what is so hard to understand?

you treat people right, allow them to express themselves and worship without worry of persecution, and you will have a populace that doesn't care what name you place on the land or what form of government you purport to espouse. All common people care about is having a peaceful life free of undue hardships, and for their children to prosper as well and make a better life for themselves than they had.
This is truly achievable, as earth is a cornucopia of wealth of all types, all that is required is to take care of her, so she'll take care of you.
These concepts are foreign to the machines. All they know is to overpower their subjects, treat them like crap and they will be so affraid of what you'll do to them that they will comply with your demands. Why do this? because you prefer to make others work for your benefit rather than doing the work yourself and also garner the pride of a job well done. A machine would not understand this, it only understands results. When it doesn't get the results it expects, it reacts violently, because that is all it knows. The worst part, it has influence of many humans, many of them in positions of power. Buddhism and other religions, have taught us the path one must follow to avoid this influence, and to avoid providing the machines what they want, energy and resources. However, they have been successful in distorting or defaming religion in such a way for it to loose it's effectiveness in putting us in contact with the power of spirit. This is China's aim in Tibet. To destroy the culture, the religion, the will of those people.
What the chinese fail to admit when they talk about the recent riots in Tibet, is that there were several days of peaceful, lawful demonstrations by monks, requesting a redress of their grievances in concordance with the Chinese constitution. After several days however, the machine responded in the only way it knows when met with adversity and a situation it doesnt understand or care to adress, with violence. Well, you are treated by others in the same way you treat them. They responded with violence, and after being subjected to the indignities and tribulations imposed on them by the caste system of modern china, they exploded in a wave of anger. Much like the Chinese people would have after Tianenmen Square Massacre were they not affraid the leadership would oppress them even more, with violence rivaling that of the NAZI war machine of the 30's.

So you see, the solution is quite simple... treat others as you would want to be treated. You would'nt want to be exploited, don't exploit others. You wouldn't want your lands poisoned and destroyed, don't destroy and pollute others land. See, simplicity itself. Nature is like that, only machines like to complicate things, they thrive within that chaos they cause.

Lawrence and few others mentioned this so-called 'greater Tibet' issue as a major point to overcome.

Here is my take on this very important point of disagreement between thet sides.

What you call greater Tibet is really traditional Tibetan inhabited regions. The entire Tibetan population is only 6 million in the entire land who share the same culture, believe in DL, way of life, religion, language. If you agree that Tibetan culture and religion need to be protected, which is also enshrined in the Chinese constitution then, I am not sure what's wrong with all of the Tibetan areas under one administration.

As you know these areas are already under 5 provinces including TAR and 6 Prefectures as Tibetan Prefecture or Autonomous designation so why not combine all together, which is the will of the people. This is autonomy and not separate country.

You are right that a lot of these regions were not under the Lhasa administration before the Chinese rule. I believe only during the 5th Dalai Lama, 500 years ago and definitely under the great King Sontsen Gampo in 7th century these were united under all of Tibet. We are talking about cultural preservation and no one can deny that these are all Tibetan people and infact all revere the Dalai Lama.

So I am not sure if I had answer your question satisfactorily. Again, no one is going to negotiate in public and much less the Chinese leaders and I really don't think these detail points have been discussed seriously by the PRC. Until this announcement on Friday, the PRC didn't even acknowlege that discussions were taking place so these were not taken seriously in the last 2 decades of backdoor discussions.

I absolutely do not agree that PRC will not cave into outside pressure as this annoucement shows. Backdoor diplomacy simple doesn't work with the PRC CCP as we have seen with these Human Rights dialogue with the west which has been admitted to be a failure. Different topic.

So back to this socalled, 'greater tibet' and Tibetans-in-exile. It is not true that majority of the exile Tibetans are from that area. I will tell you that about 65 to 70% of the exile Tibetans are from the current TAR (old Utsang province), about 20% from Kham (Sichuan) and 15% from Amdo province (Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama brith place) Qinghai.

Besides, the exile Tibetans are only about 150,000. Of which about 20,000 are in the west. If there was a settlement, I think only half will return. So it's relatively very, very small population that will hardly make a dent in PRC.

Ultimately, it's the people in Tibet who are speaking up. If you look at the map of the recent uprising in Tibet of over 50 separate protests, you will see most of the old Tibet or you call 'greater Tibet'

anyone? no man, YOU!!!

and the machines that own you.

Get ready, my great grandmother is about to speak again... did you see how she affected the area around WASHINGTON? Hear all that rumbling about reno? guess what's coming there?

No it should be clear to everyone as it is me that not only are your positions weak but when found as so you:

1) Call anyone that disagrees with you Chinese, an automaton, someone that can only spout the party line, etc...

2) If that is not good you resort to name calling

3) And if that is still not good enough you get into spelling and grammar errors

Your arguments are weak hence you resort to the above.

Yes the truth must hurt you otherwise you would use much better tactics than these lame ones. Sorry to be an American Patriot and someone that really knows what that means.

And yes I can go on like this all day instead of discussing Tibet since you have nothing to say there.

if your intent was to understand or perhaps have a realistic discussion, I might be persuaded to engage you. However, your only intent is to spew party lines, ridicule whoever doesn't agree with you and make yourself look like a party operator. No more, no less.

keep working for you pupeteers bud, you're going to love you recompense.

Zephon,

Sorry, I'm sure the truth hurts.

I've made my thoughts clear to you more than once, but all you ever do is spin, and spout yet more specious lines as you've just done once again. What else would anyone think of someone that acts like you?

Party line, calling me a dolt...

No critical thinking skills is an American concept. One you obviously have never experienced or you would know that is a requirement for admission into many postgraduate schools here. Philosophy is the required lower level course... ever had a good philosophy instructor? Probably not. Ever been to college - would surprise me that neither of you have much experience there either.

Care to talk about Tibet? Probably not. Cuz neither of you have much to say about it that would mean a damn. Or have you both figured out that your positions are all so weak?

Orion, yeah - that must be where I am from, beamed up there straight from the Giza pyramids 10,000 years ago from that last reincarnation. LOL.

Frak you guys I think I will just stop caring about grammar and spelling because both of you are obviously more interested in name calling than the subject of this board.

Ooops used slang. Is that supposed to be the "party line" also do they teach that in the ministry of automatons? Automatons.

Zephon,

" Hence the critical thinking skills."

???.., you merely spout a convoluted, but pretty standard Party line.

I guess they don't teach reading comprehension in the ministry... or maybe the dissembling gets in the way. Either way, interesting response, just what i expected from an automaton.

try going back to orion!!

:D :D

ROTFLMAO

what a dolt!!

There is a run on sentence back there also.

If my grammar errors do not mean I am from Mars how about Alpha Centuri. Always wanted to go there.

Damn. Should not have been "a some" but just "some". Someday I might get the hang of typing slower and reading it better. It will obviously take some time.

Must be another example that I am not an American. Why don't you all just say I am from Mars, need to read Heinlein again ... such a great book. Makes as much sense as calling me Chinese.

Sorry to confuse you so. You probably have a hard time figuring things out if it is not clearly "spelled" out. No wonder both of you make the comments you do. You must like step by step instructions on things and probably do as you are told and don't ask many questions. I never did either of these. Hence the critical thinking skills.

Getting bored yet? Or should we discuss Tibet?

Damn, already made one... that "S" should have been in the next paragraph. with the "uch". Ohh well must mean I come from a some other planet.

Thought I read it though. How did I not catch it I do not know!!!

And again sometimes I use slang, another example of bad grammar. Does that mean I am an totalitarian loving communist that hates Tibetans also?

How lame. Yes I have made diction errors. I saw one yesterday when I had "it" instead of "if" - look at your QWERTY keyboard and you can easily see how such an error could be made.

Yes I will try to read my posts slowly and enunciate the words and find diction errors. I typically go no further than spelling errors that are marked by the site. S

As well I can look at Jed and Anonymous and find errors in grammar. uch as one of you displayed an error it is "grew up" not "growed up".

From your logic that must mean you were born in another country.

LOL. You really have no more specious an argument than to attack the other persons grammar mistakes? This just shows your weakness. And even if I were born in China or whatever other country. What the frak does it matter? Sounds like more typical ethnocentrism to me. So typical of the Americans I have seen all my life here.

And I have to admit that strict grammar rules bore me. And I never have paid much attention to it. I understand if it confuses you all so I will make an attempt to post slower and proof things better.

Isn't it convenient that when you are the victor in an invasion, you get to rewrite the history and twist it to your own designs, usually to justify your invasion.

"Amdo is the birthplace of the current Dalai Lama and Kham is the home of the great Tibetan warriors."

The Qing put Amdo under their rule in 1724, and incorporated eastern Kham into neighbouring Chinese provinces in 1728.

At the time the 13th Dalai declared independence, Eastern Kham, separated by the Yangtze River from Western Kham, was under the control of Chinese warlord Liu Wenhui. Amdo (Qinghai) was controlled after 1928 by the Hui warlord Ma Bufang.

So this greater Tibet is never a reality.

That being said, it is also a legitimate argument that all Tibetans should enjoy the same rights regardless which region they live in.

what determines when development and progress are warranted?
When a civilization is content with being an agrarian, religious society, does another people imposing it's way or life, development if you will, actually bring prosperity and happiness for all, or merely for the ones imposing their way of life on others?

What was done to the native americans, children of earth as demonstrated in their early speeches and their love for the land demonstrated by their nomadic ways, which were less disruptive of the natural systems, was an injustice... an attempted genocide. And some day the great equalizer, mother nature will make them pay, unless restitution and an honest effort is made to help them evolve. Thankfully, since the native americans enjoy unparalelled autonomy, they are able to progress and grow. Just recently the advances in native american matters, lead me to believe they are making the moves to take their rightful place as protectors of nature. This is something the people of tibet need. Their knowledge, as that of the native americans, must not be lost. Their cultures must be saved, for they are the history of humanity and our patronage and legacy. These are the things that will help us prove we've always been here, as one with the planet, before we were invaded and our cultures decimated, our way of life forgotten and ridiculed and our planet poisoned.

Why do you think extremists everywhere sound the same? They use the same didactic tactics, dissembling, information overload, dissinformation, villification, emotional outburst bordering on temper tantrums, peer pressure and the threat of harming your family. Why is that? Because they tap into the same energy that is destroying the planet. They choose to act this way because they have become disconected from the mother spirit and have chosen to ally themselves to uncaring machines. I wonder what they will do when they realize they themselves are expendable and consumable.

Jed wrote, "If you are an american, raised and educated in the US, do you make so many diction errors and ideological errors in your writing? Seems you trainer and your studying isn't as good as you assumed."

Clearly, this person is not a native English speaker. In the U.S., we call those spelling errors :-). And "ideological errors" are certainly foreign concept :-).

Somehow my gut feeling tells me that this person actually growed up in a communist country like China and learned the Britsh style of English.

TO _kt_:

Because they are backwards, it's politically incorrect to say but its' the truth. what we do with theseunder-developed/civilizations minorities? US now puts native americans into isolated areas called reserves, so they can stay undeveloped as they were 100 yrs ago, they think this can reserve their tradition.

Are you kidding me? most of their youngs would leave, and marry to other races and integrate/dispear into main stream society. Honestly what do you think will happen to their language and culture eventually??? Thrive in their reserves???

Tibet is too big and there are 6 millions of them. You cant possibably turn Tibet into a big reserved land and put fence around it. Who's gonna feed them? they had hard time to sustain themselves 50 yrs ago (average longevity <40) when their population was 1 million. The only way out is to come along with the rest of the world, be part of it and move forward. And that's also the only hope to their culture and civilization, if they dont want to go out like american indians.

Thondup, our common enemy has been using the same tactic for millenia, it is not going to stop now. The only way to eliminate this thing is to expose it and stop feeding it.

Kham and Amdo are part of Tibet. Amdo is the birthplace of the current Dalai Lama and Kham is the home of the great Tibetan warriors. It is interesting that while China opposes even any suggestion of "splitting" the motherland, but they are adamant of splitting Tibet into this so called 'Tibet Autonomous Region.' This is a classic example of colonialism mentally of 'divide and rule' even in the 21st century!

I think Tibet's best chance will be from a change in the consciousness of the people of China toward freedom and self-determination. Currently, from what I'm reading here, Chinese seem to think of Tibetans as backwards people who need the Chinese to civilize them. This is a pretty typical imperialistic attitude. Americans felt this way about native American nations, the British felt this way about the indigenous people of their colonies all over the world, Australians felt this way about the Aborigines... Heck, the Japanese felt this way about the Chinese. All these people eventually grew out of this way of thinking, though in the case of the US, it was tragically late. I hope that China does not repeat the errors of the US. Hopefully, it won't take too long.

Scott Mitchell wrote:
"Scotland and Tibet are the same.
Free Scotland from centuries of English tyranny!
The Kingdom of Scotland was an independent state from 843 to 1707.
Scotland will fight for independence."

Actually, Scotland has already acquired autonomy, and its current government is pro-independence. If Scotland decides to become independent, they will do so. There will be no need for bloodshed because Britain no longer has an authoritarian, imperialistic mindset. The people of Scotland are under absolutely no cultural or religious control from London. If Scotland remains a part of Great Britain, it will be because they themselves wish to do so. Also, Quebec could leave Canada peacefully if they chose to do so. That may be incomprehensible to Chinese, but a nation's true greatness is not measured in the amount of land it controls. They are perhaps the most civilized countries in the world, and that's coming from an American. Would people respect the UK today if it still ruled India by force? Of course not. If Britain still occupied India, people would protest holding the Olympics in Britain just as they are now protesting the Beijing Olympics.

But the Chinese have a simple option here. The Dalai Lama is not asking for independence, but for autonomy. Let's start with religious and cultural freedom. Is this really so much to ask? What does it say about China that they will not grant even this much? This is why the world condemns China's treatment of Tibetans. Then, when Chinese accuse the world of racism, and especially when they threaten those who hold different views such as that Chinese student at Duke who only tried to broker a conversation between groups, we are appalled.

Currently, China and the rest of the world are business partners. That is all. Trade benefits everyone. No one is doing anyone else any favors. If China wants to withdraw from the world because their feelings are hurt, they are free to do so. China seems to want the rest of the world to love and respect them, not just do business with them. Love and respect have to be earned. China likes to trumpet its rapid economic growth, demanding to be admired for this. Indeed, China finally abandoned a long discredited economic system that had resulted in the needless deaths of tens of millions of its citizens. Everyone in the world is very happy that millions are being lifted out of poverty. This very late reform justifies celebration but not pride. When someone finally does what everyone has been telling him to do for decades, and he finds out that they were right all along, he can't really expect others to be all that impressed. It's like expecting the whole village to honor a man because after 50 years of marriage he decided to stop beating his wife.

Furthermore, wealth and power are not enough to bring love and respect. The Nazi's initially brought wealth and power to Germany. I'm happy for China's new found prosperity, but this does not mean that others don't have the right to criticize them. All the major nations of the world face criticism every day. Even Russia deals with criticism with more maturity than China. It's as if China still thinks that it is the Middle Kingdom between heaven and earth, beyond the reproach of the rest of us barbarians. Do the US, France, the UK, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, etc. sometimes do stupid things? Of course they do, and they freely and severely criticize each other and themselves every day. If China wants to gain the friendship of nations like these, they can do so easily. If they want to remain nothing more than business partners, it would be a great loss to everyone, but they are free to do so. They can be pals with Sudan and Mugabe's Zimbabwe.

Well yes, that is true, which is why there are tariffs imposed on imports either at the importing country or the receiving country.

Tibet doesn't need manufacturing, it has always been the breadbasket of asia... so to speak. Agrarian communities do not need the benefits of manufacturing. When you look at tibet from above, you can see the remnants of the abandoned terraces. The only ones enjoying Chinas new found wealth... all coming due to american investment after Richard 'I'm not a crook' Nixon helped open up China by giving them a pass on demands for certain rights for workers. What american companies can do is not accept products from companies that mistreat their employees. You know, If you force a 14 yo girl from the country to come work in the city, where you charge her a fortune to live in cramped quarters with 10 other girls in the same desperate situation, then sell them their necessities at a hefty profit, pay them a fraction of what they should be getting, then you are a thief, stealing labor from the proletariat... in other words not better than a capitalist and a traitor to communist or socialist ideals. You've become that which you said you despised and put your people through such misery for. YOU LIED, DECEIVED, MISLED!!

If trading with nations that have a standard of wages less than ours is not fair - then every developing nation in the world would not be able to have international trade unless it was not fair.

But by trading with the countries we increase their wages and improve their standard of living. One of the reasons why a boycott of Chinese goods will have the opposite effect of helping any Chinese Tibetans. But will drastically hurt Tibetans and leave them out of any opportunities of joining the great improvements the Chinese have seen since the 1970s.

Additionally it is American companies that contract out to other countries like China to produce goods at a lower cost than they could produce here. Without that ability these American companies would go out of business and all of the jobs would be lost.

The only other choices to keep jobs in America and not see them go offshore is to:

1) Reduce the wages of Americans like it has been happening, AKA the falling value of the dollar via low Fed Funds rates

2) Import cheap labor, like we have been

3) Work on economies of scale, vertical and horizontal integration and in general increase productivity. These are things that have been on going since the industrial revolution in America.

I was having good discussions with Zephon in what are the issues that might come up during negotiations but then there are others who want to ramp down our throat this 100 year old revisionist history of Tibet.

Not sure what happened to Huang, who I thought was sensible but then went back into his defensive mode. I think Huang is demanding an apology from the Tibetans to the Chinese people the pain, suffering and problems that Tibetans inflicted on the Chinese people.

Huang, I do understand the sufferings, humiliations that the majority Han Chinese went through from the occupation of foreign powers such as Mongols, Manchus, European Imperialism, Japanese imperialism (Nanjing Massacre) but also need to acknowledge the sufferings the Tibetans were subjected to under the Chinese Communist Party rule which is still in power that you are defending. I condemn these atrocities against the Chinese people especially Nanjing massacre but you need to also acknowledge the CCP atrocities against the Tibetans and if not condemn it but don't need to justify and defend.

I do appreciate Zephon's responses and quite impressed that you are able to come up with quite specific points that I have never seen anywhere and do know where it's coming from. The points are interesting to me but still not insurmountable to overcome if these are being seriously discussed. At this time I don't think the Chinese government is sincere and has not even started any serious discussions to solve this protracted problem. To them before this unrest, there are no problems in Tibet to resolve so there inothing to talk about. The only difference of this Friday announcement is that they made it public for the first time that they wanted to start a discussion which is a great start.

I will give one correction to Zephon on Tibetan Buddhism and the various sects. There are four sects and one indegenious Bon religion. Although Dalai Lama's lineage is from the Gelugpa sect, he is considered indisputable head of Tibetan Buddhism since he was the God-King. Panchen Lama is also from the same sect. The head of Gelugpa is Ganden Tripa. Kagyu is Karmapa (the young lama who also fled into exile about 5-6 years ago); Sakya sect and then Nyingma sect. The spiritual leaders are all inexile.

I guess another point of note, for fair trade to exit, the populaces of both trading partners must be on a similar economic base. If the labor to stitch up a pair of tennies shoes is worth $2 in the states, and in china it's only 50cents, then there is no such thing as fair trade. See, the contractor that hires the laborers to stitch the shoes gets paid as if he's paying $2 per shoe, but he's stealing the labor of his employees by only paying them 1/4th their true worth. This is something china will never understand, you see... it doesn't value it's people, only it's oligarchy. Which is the true reason China has not risen out of it's devastation of WWII and the 'cultural mass murder' yet.

Actually, boycotting chinese products would be just the thing america needs. By not being able to partake in china's enslavement of it's people, american companies will be forced to return manufacturing to the american people. Our valued and well developed technology would not be going to where it will be copied and resold at a lower price.
Having manufacturing on american shores will give the american public the cash on hand they need to pull themselves out of the recession caused by our lack of manufacturing and trade deficit due to few finished products coming out of the US.
While we are at it, let's send these 40thousand plus chinese spies... er. students. back home where they can learn their own brand of science.
If they wish to live in an oppressive regime where bullying tactics rather than open debate are employed, they can do that in their own nation.

Well I guess I should add that a fundamental assumption of the previous ideas on boycotts is that perfect competition exists.

When perfect competition does not exist, such as with oligopolies and monopolies then there is a problem. As there is with oil/OPEC.

The answer there still is not boycott - but one of replacement and conservation.

I believe that if Americans took this as an opportunity we could be using very little oil that is imported from oligopolistic competitors. We have the ingenuity and technology, with a little help from our big brother we would have never have been in this position. But the Bush and Sauds are two families that have a long history of friendship and probably more - so do not expect something to happen anytime before the shrub leaves - 9 more months, YEAH!

With regard to boycotts.

There is a mathematical economic treatise that describes macro-economic thought and the effects of international trade. If I remember correctly it won a Nobel prize several decades ago. I forgot who wrote it though.

Basically it states that free international trade is a benefit to those parties that are involved because economies inherent in those countries are used to the advantage of each.

In the sense that Americans get inexpensive products from China and China gets technology and services from America. Both countries become stronger and inherently sell goods and services that they can produce at a better price/quality and service level.

To boycott Chinese goods or vice versa will only hurt both parties. Americans get higher inflation at a time we certainly do not want it and such a boycott will support industries that should not be in business because they really cannot compete in the global market, only prolonging the time of their inevitable fall, where price = marginal cost = average variable costs as a shutdown condition for any firm.

Likewise if people propose a boycott as a way of hurting China, they also hurt Chinese Tibetans. At this point in time China is trying their best to improve the lives of the Chinese Tibetans and all those in more rural areas of China that have not benefited yet from the vast improvement in life that has occurred in the last 30 years there.

Bottom line - Americans boycotts of Chinese goods hurts Americans, hurts Tibetans and makes the world just a more dangerous place.

quite amusing.

Now you purport to also know buddhism. and live by it? Quite funny if it wasn't so sad to see you in your tiny little cage.

Did you think the dalai and the Penchen were the only ones who've realized their permanence?

Hey zeppo... guess what mother nature does when her greatest river system is enslaved?

Saudi Arabia, friend of USA, or not?
where:
1. Criminals are stoned to death
2. Women, covered from head to toe, cannot drive
3. Osama was born and raised

Boycott Saudi oil!!!

It is OK. Take a deep breath Jed. Nobody is going to hurt you. Take a deep breath and just relax.

I have no problem with you believing in reincarnation (though I do not). People are free to believe what they want. Nobody here wants to control you and your thoughts.

Have you ever tried Ativan? It might work, otherwise just going for a walk and enjoying the fresh air and the birds and flowers in the spring. It was a wonderful day wasn't it?

You are talking like perhaps you are a Buddhist. Part of Buddha's teaching was to have no ill thoughts at all. You seem to have quite a bit of ill thoughts here. Maybe that is adding to your anxiety. It is a great practice and helps with meditation where breathing and relaxing the mind is so important.

And thanks for calling me an infant - though I believe that you meant it in a derogatory way. I take it as a compliment. Another idea in Buddha's teaching is that you are supposed to become childish. I believe the Chinese call it "te", like in Tao Te Ching, a great book you should read. But I have asked people that know Mandarin and Taoism and they look at me like I am crazy - so I may well be wrong on this. We as adults become cluttered with baggage that damages our internal energies, stops the flow of chi. I have long tried to be more childish and leave that baggage behind. Ever notice how the innocence of childhood is so beautiful. Enjoy that thought.

PS - Freud has similar ideas on this as well. But I tried to place it in terms you may understand.

"One form of pressure China will respond to is that of an economic boycott. The "success" of Totalitarian China is largely founded on grossly immoral human rights and environmental violations, and unfair trade practices and policies. It's usually impossible for a Western manufacturer to maintain operations in the West, where there are sane environmental regulations and humane labor laws, when their competitors manufacturing in China have no such "restrictions".

Please consider boycotting all products made in Totalitarian China, until there is radical improvement in human rights, labor treatment, unfair trade practices, and environmental degradation in China, and amends are made for the evils done up to this point. To purchase these products when you absolutely don't need to, is to be complicit in the myriad economic and moral evils which exemplify Totalitarian China."

Well said. After reading these irrational, lying, twisting of the truth and history, and relentless arguments of the defenders of Totalitarian China, this is what needs to be done. I have never experienced such an onslaught of plain weirdness.. this is what it must have been like in the Totalitarian Soviet Union.. I am now so very thankful to live in a democratic society!

why, zeppo, you poor little infant, do you not realize that the dalai is not the only 14 life old spirit on this rock?

If you could realize your permanence on this earth, perhaps you would understand how you are a trator to your species. I'm affraid it's too late for you though. You've been separated from spirit for so long, even if spirit showed you your past lives, you would think it imagination and therefore worthless, because it wasn't provided by the oligarchi.... Any idea where you've been, I have a feeling your destination is very loaded by the kharma you've collected... who knows, perhaps in your next life you get to be born in Darfur.

Jed:

You need serious help. I certainly feel for you. I know it is sometimes hard to seek help. But with 23% of the USA population suffering from mental disease you are not alone. Mental illness is really no different from a physical one. So if you attach a stigma to it you should not. If you are courageous enough to seek help I would suggest that you look at many therapists and find one that you best communicate with and understands you.

NAMI is an organization where you can meet others like you and they will explain their experiences, relate with your problems, and help you find help. Look for a local chapter and go to a meeting - they are open to everyone in search of help. You can find them at:

www.nami.org

And with regards to my children ... since I do not have any I assume you are talking about the fact that the USA has the highest infant mortality rate of any industrialized nation in the world. Such a tragedy for a country that wants to be "the" world's superpower. Or are you talking about the fact that America is a child compared to China. Maybe you see China as your grandmother. You are so obtuse it is hard to understand you. Are you on meds?

And about your grandmother's problem with gas. She can change her diet and get away from things that we humans cannot naturally digest. Otherwise try that beano stuff, I hear it works.

For more information:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatulence

Cultural genocide in Alaska.....

Alaska natives are losing their native tongue, and more and more can only speak American English!

Ah yes, the machine recognizes me and realises it must act immediately to defame and silence the intruder. yes, those of us who have realized what is really happening understand where the beast is most vulnerable. It thinks it gathers strength, when all it does is make itself weaker.

Your contracts have been terminated. You chose to not honor the bargain and have worked to profane earth's creatures.

You are once again given the oportunity to return to your own world.

Ah, I see the hysterical shriker has returned. This is the one who singled-handedly flooded this site with his cries of "red threat""chinese agents" "Öur common eney has gotten a foothold in some major countries, could it be it has sevenheads now?" ad nausea. My previous posts referring to modern day Joe McCarthyism was inspired by this kind of mindsets. The "great humanitarian"who refuses to shed a tear for the Iraqis, the Palestinians, the Kurds (who were 2nd class citizens in Turkey), the women in Saudi Arabia, the suffering masses in Africa, etc.
Any one who thinks the Tibetan issue is ONLY a human rights issue is one of the following or a combination of all:
1. a fool who does not have enough I.Q. to comprehend the complexities of human affairs, especially international geopolitics.
2. an right-wing extremist who chooses to nurse intense hatred against "commies"
3. a political operative with special agenda to advance and promote
4. a cult-follower who was so hypnotized by personality worship that he prefers to act like the three monkies (no see, no hear, no speak)
Thus I advise the following :
Re DL, Check out articles by F. William Engdahl (Why Washington plays Tibet Roulette with China ) and George Fetherling (Dalai Lama's links to CIA still stir debate) and the book : CIA's Secret War in Tibet.Just a few for starter to have a basic knowledge of the background of the current issue.
Also, check out the PNAC (Project of New American Century) to have a grasp of the Neocon's grand scheme for the Master of the Universe in the new century . It was laid out in the plan for supremacy on land, on sea, in space and in cyber-space. Six or seven countries are targetted as candidates for Regime Change. Iran and China and others are on the list. Iraq war was planned way way way before 911.
All the info are available on the internet, just for the fingers to do the work.
What a great age we live in, what great responsibilities we have as world citizens. Our loyalty should be dedicated to truth, universal brotherhood, abolition of war as a solution of conflict, goodwill and good thoughts and good friendships, and of course, human rights. Yes human rights for the tibetans, the chinese, the iraqis, the kurds and all the other disfranchised
disprevileged, displaced.
After all the turmoils quiet down, let's all go to tibet to see the situation for our selves. Even during the 314 riots, there were western tourists in tibet who recorded the chaos.
The British philosopher/author F. Bacon said "knowledge is power". With knowledge you are not going to be fooled by anybody, any goverment, any ideology, any ism, any cult , any personality.
We can all appeal to our better angels.

what's the matter zeppo?

did my great grandmothers rumbling not wake you up? What do you think of you children becoming sick like that? If you are an american, raised and educated in the US, do you make so many diction errors and ideological errors in your writing? Seems you trainer and your studying isn't as good as you assumed.

What do you think her next rumbling will be? Are you ready?

Psychological projection is a defense mechanism and should reduce your anxiety.

It it makes you feel better I guess these boards are a cheap replacement for a therapist. I don't want to bust any therapeutic effect and tell you what people might think of such posts ...

Personally, I never like Freud (I'm more a humanistic/behaviorist). Out of favor for so long, but some of his ideas like this one appear to be apropos.

It is hillarious to see a bunch of children, still wet behind the ears and swallowing up whatever their mother feeds them, talk about history as if they know for certain that what they have been fed is truth.

It's even more interesting to see how some little automatons have been so well coached, that they themselves believe their own lies... unfortunately, these poor creatures have never known truth. I guess that is the nature of humans after all, isn't it? that you lie to yourselves constantly and ignore how your world is being enveloped by a ruthless enemy.

Someone

yes indeed, the Yuan and Qing dynasties were not found by Han Chinese. If you have any knowledge of Chinese history, you should know that the nomades from the north or northeast would rode on their horse-back (good horsemen!) from time to time into China proper on raids. Thoughout history the emperors would either use the hard (military force )or the soft (pacification )methods to secure border peace. Alas, apparently, the Great Wall was not that effective as a deterant.
After the invading Yuans settled into "celestial court"as conquerors, they adopted the language, manners, court etiques and laws (some times added their own ) of the Hans. Mostly the Han scholars were used as high advisers. In other words, they were totally immersed in and conquered by the Chinese culture. Both the Yuan and Qing had pretty bad racial rules against the Hans, meanwhile their own (Yuan rens) enjoyed special previlege (birth right, ha !)
China has 56 minorities, among them the decendents of the Yuan and Qing. Many of them are in Taiwan, China and overseas Chinese communities. Try to find anyone who does not admit that they are Chinese. They have been better assimilated into mainstream life than any other ethnic groups. The well-known woman poet xi muron is of the mongolan decent, while another woman writer Chao -- is of Manchurian (Qing decent), so is Li Au's former movie star wife Hu yingmon.

While Tibet may have become part of the Chinese/Mongolian empire in the 13th Century, after the fall of this dynasty the mongols were no longer in power and Tibet remained and still remains a part of China.

End of story.

"Yuan Dynasty of 13th Century is a Mongolian Dynasty not Han-Chinese. What do you mean by Tibet has been part of China since Yuan Dynasty. You should rather say "China has been part of Mongolia since Yuan Dynasty. Ever heard of Genghis Khan? That`s Yuan Dynasty we are talking about.. now now don't claim Genghis Khan is Chinese too. =)"

I don't understand the argument, isn't Han Chinese doing the same as the Mongolians in the 13th century? If you don't have a problem with the Mongolians's, why would you have a problem with the Han Chinese?

Interesting how mother nature has chosen to punish China by going after her children, just like they are going after her children, the monks and the people of tibet.

BTW - the chinese gov knows they have the numbers. all they have to do, in their opinion, is saturate the internet with their views and in time that will get everyone to resonate to their tune. Of course they may get a few automatons with that, but real people will see right through the propaganda as they've always done.

"In terms of the Tibetan and Chinese (if you will Han), they are more different than Chinese to Korea and Japan."

The same can be said about Manchurian, Mongolian, Uigurian, among the other 55 nationalities. I don't see why Tibetan should be used as a reason to be 'independent'.

"1) Prior to Moa's army occupation in 1951, there were less than half a dozen Chinese in all of Tibet. How can you govern Tibet with that many people."

Assume it is true, what about muslims living in the region for hundreds of years? Would that give the Hui's an argument to claim Tibet?

"2) The 13th Dalai Lama kicked out the remaining Manchu emperor's representative, 'Amban' around 1914's and declared complete independence."

I don't think anyone here is denying that there was such a "Declaration", but no other country recognized it. tibet.net claims there was a 'treaty" signed by the British, Tibetan and Chinese but that is not what happened. It must have been refering to "Simla Convention", in which the British, Tibetan and Chinese (Republis of China) did sit down but there was nothing signed by all 3 parties. Ironically Tibetan and the British signed it without the Chinese because the Chinses refused to sign it. But even that did not say Tibet being independent but under the rule of China. The fact is China never gave up its claim to Tibet and Tibet Independence has neven been recognized since Yuan dynasty.

"4) Tibet had its own currency, stamps, passport and even measurements. They didn't pay a dime to the Chinese emperors and infact the emperors became the patron of the Tibetan buddhism."

Many other provinces between 1912 and 1949 had their own amries, currencies and claimed 'independence' in some form but none of them was recongnized by the international community. I don't see how Tibet would be different than, say, Guanxi or Yunan.

"5) Tibetan govt had its own army, although quite weak who were trained by and supplied by British India. Tibetan govt sought military support from Chinese, Manchu, Mongols, British India, White Russians and even Nepal. Quite sad as the national priority is spiritual matters which did produced remarkable scholars and geniuses. Infact one scholar told me that per capita Tibetan written literature/philosphy is the most in the old world but neglected greatly in the governing of its own affairs, military, foreign affairs etc."

You could say the same regarding "Manchria", and its 'foreign relationship' with the Japanese. Nothing unique about Tibet.

These are not supporting evidences that Tibet was indeed "independent". At most it can be said of "de facto independent", which does not mean "independent", period.

For 800 years China and Tibet were one, with temporal power resting in China and spirtual power with the Tibetan monks sort of like Europe (but in reverse) where temporal power lay locally and spritual power with Rome. In 1915 Britain instigated a "seperatist" movemement to carve out a "free" Tibet to butress their policies in that part of the world, read India, Nepal.,etc. It worked only because China was in a decendancy, exhausted by wars with colonial Western powers . The Tibetans declined into serfdom where all things were pointed to the Monasteries needs. In 1950 China came back restoring Tibet as before the total Theocracy, with roads, schools, medical care and commerce, improving the life of the average locals. The root of the current problem is the monks who just won't give up their privledges, they attacked Chinese shops, burning and killing innocent people, not the other way around. The Nepalese and Indians had to use "excessive" force to control the staged demonstrations there as well. In the west we think of monks a'la Franciscans, but these guys are militant and have shown that side in other Asian countries with large Bhuddist populations. As to fariness of coverage hence validity of the actions,(I can't bring myself to think of the matter as a cause). A couple of weeks ago 15 demonstrators showed up at the Chinese consulatete in Toronto and got full coverage, while 10-15,000 pro-China (mostly,but far from all, Chinese) on Parliament Hill in Ottawa were ignored! The Dalai Lama has stated he does not want a seperate Tibet and condemns the violence by his own monks....so what's the problem here?

T.S

Yuan Dynasty of 13th Century is a Mongolian Dynasty not Han-Chinese. What do you mean by Tibet has been part of China since Yuan Dynasty. You should rather say "China has been part of Mongolia since Yuan Dynasty. Ever heard of Genghis Khan? That`s Yuan Dynasty we are talking about.. now now don't claim Genghis Khan is Chinese too. =)

To Liz: "better mutual understanding with the west"is not easy since the West has been bent on conquering, invading, demonizing, interfering, sabotaging politcally and economically,since the colonialism era up to now under various forms and styles without interuption. The Chinese has not returned the same. The Chinese try for mutual understanding but are alway reminded of the past insults with new ferocious accusations from the West. The Chinese are more civilized not to react as Bush did. Will the West ever change their predatory behavior after 2000 years immersion in the Christian religion of love and forgiving?

It seems that the media in recent weeks is focusing only on publicity seeking activisits, instead of the plight of those living in Tibet. I have recently talked to a Tibetan living in UK, and he told me that he had not been able to reach his relatives in Tibet since the riots started. He was really worried, and the best I could do was to reassure him that his relatives would be fine as long as they didn't burn down any shops (and I really hope they didn't).

Do all these shrill voices from the media and popularity starved politicians (Sarckozy, Clinton ...) actually help the Tibetans or they just promost their own agendas? One may point out that China has started a dialog with Dalai, but those have been going on for decades, and China is prolly reluctant to trust any more independence to Dalai who led an American backed armed rebellion in the fifties. Plus, nobody's likely to invade Tibet because it's got no oil, and China's grip in Tibet is firm (especially after a recent purging shortly after the protests).

It's a shame that Tibet is still closed. What is China hiding, what is it afraid of? Personally, I think it's afraid of the western media, and the international criticism that follows.

The western media is determined to depict China and the violent prostester-beating, earth-polluting, toy-poisoning, job-stealing and children-eating Chinese in the worst possible light. Even if the situation in Tibet is OK, the journalists allowed in are probably going to try to find the ugliest piece of news to publish, and there are bound to be ugly pieces of news following crackdowns, even in the civilized world.

The group that were allowed in a while ago were shown videos and pics of Tibetan burning and looting (500 shops burnt down by the way, and 20 Chinese burned or hacked to death), they were propagada no doubt, but they were also facts. Five hundred shops WERE burnt down, and twenty Chinese WERE burned or hacked to death, it was on tape. And of course, the jounalists only wrote about the screaming monks crying for freedom - the shortcut to the American heart.

It is silly for my to write about what international leaders should do, everyone's hands are tied. But as a Christian, the best I can do is to pray for peace in the world, and I pray for understanding among all people.

I think the Chinese people are just that, a group of people with needs and wants just like the rest. They are a diverse group with a painful history in the last century. They have their values and love their country just like the British or the Americans do. And I hope that the new century will bring them a lot more freedom and economic growth, as well as a better mutual understanding with the west.

To Wanchuk: In USA, the voting and the school districts are defined by the local governments, not by the local people. Of course, they can protest, that's all. It has been known that in areas where minorities are concentrated and to prevent the minorites becoming the majority voting block,their district is divided up so that the minorities is kept as minorities in the divided up district and no minority officials are elected. No group of people is allowed to carve up the voting/school district exclusively for their own interest. For example, the Spanish speaking/Chinese speaking Americans cannot claim to have the right to modify a voting district where they are the majority. This has nothing to do with democracy, freedom this and that. Only the political-power hungry drives those claims. The ordinary people don't care less as long as they feel fine. Why can the Kham and Amdo also think that they are members of the great Chinese population and why should they have to belong to this or that group. Only those political-power hungry folks crave for such issues. Power corrupts and corrupts absolutely.

In the recent international row over the Tibet issue, a lot of people gave a lot of opinions. But how do the people of Tibet really feel, most don't know or care, they just want their own opinions heard. Tibetans living abroad cannot represent Tibet because not many were rich enough to afford the trip to the west in the old days, only the rich and powerful got away.

One thing is for sure though, a government cannot govern an unwilling populace. We see the same thing again and again, with Soviet Union, Iraq, WWII, etc. The current Chinese government started as a rebel army with the support of the Chinese people. The great nation of US cannot secure an American friendly government in Iraq after half a trillion and tens of thousands of lives lost. Yet the Chinese were able to keep a firm hold in Tibet, while Tibet's GDP shot up 13.5% a year for a decade straight. There has been uprisings and protests, there has been crackdowns, lives were lost, despite all that, life in Tibet has probably been getting better, as a result, China has a firm grip in Tibet, and probably the hearts of most Tibetans.

People love to talk about freedom and human rights, but when your family has been starving for twenty five years and many relatives succumbed to hunger or disease, you probably would not put your freedom as your first priority. Despite China's recent rise, it does not have magical powers that can give happy endings to everyone instantaneously. It has solved many problems for the Chinese and Tibetans alike, and it has certainly made mistakes. The bottom line is that China is becoming richer and freer everyday.

People complain about cultural genocide in Tibet. In fact, there has been a cultural genocide in all of China, it was called the Cultural Revolution, and it has been an especially painful chapter in China's history. It was a serious mistake, and the Chinese government have been trying to undo the damage ever since. People still have the freedom to practice buddism in Tibet, hundreds of millions a year (in USD) are poured in from the central government each year to maintain the monastaries, there are hundreds of Tibet cultural study centers all over China promoting the Tibetan culture. China has built the highest railway in the world at great expense to bring in tourism and connect Tibet with the rest of China.

It is true that if you speak only Tibetan, you probably cannot find a good job in China, this is because Tibetans account for less than 0.5% of China's population, it would be ridiculous to impose the Tibetan language on the other 99.5% of Chinese. There are dozens of regional dialects in China, each completely intelligible from the rest, and there is one accepted language called Mandarin.

Actually, the Tibetan areas outside the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) are designated as Tibetan by the PRC. They are called Tibetan autonomous counties & prefectures which shows the China considers these areas Tibetan & autonomous as well. These areas are called Amdo & Kham by Tibetans. Since these areas are culturally, ethnically, historically, & now even legally Tibetan autonomous areas same as the TAR (which was created by China in 1965), there's no practical reason why they shouldn't be reincorporated back into Tibet & under a single Tibetan administration.

In fact, let the residents of these regions decide whether they want to be part of China or part of Tibet. I have no doubt that they would vote to have their homelands be administered as part of Tibet. Such referendums have occured in other countries in the past & are the best way to peacefully resolve this issue. Failure to resolve this issue in a democratic way will only exacerbate existing problems b/t Tibetans & China.

To Khechok: It must be a cultural genocide to hear that you say, after more than 50 years , that there are “only a few educated Xangs (Tibetans)” among the Xang refugee outside China, even after the generous financial aid by USA and other anti-China axis of evil countries. You are one of the few and you must be tremendously privileged and live very comfortably not among the Xang refugees in India. Since you had been to China, you must have seen that public educational in Zixang (Tibet) is wide spread. There are now more educated Xangs in Zixang than those outside China and before 1950. More Xang books are published. There are more schools, more hospital and medical services than before 1950. You must have seen that Zixang has been opened to the world since so many tourists have been there for so many years. Will you advocate that USA must allow international monitors to its Quantanamo prison and other secrete rendition centers? Those thousands arrested must be extremist/terrorists and 140 killed must be threatening rebels. Any country has the right to crack down on lawless and murderous citizens no matter how righteous they are. I hope you understand. USA is blaming Bin Laden for the 9/11 even though those involved are Saudi citizens and there are no direct evidences linking them to Bin Laden. So Dalai Lama can be equally implicated. I hope you understand. You have a list of “a few basic preamble points.” Are you advocating these points for the American Indians and present them to the USA? China, under the onslaught of foreign powers in the nineteen centuries and internal rebellions, was not able to effectively administer Zixang. In other words Zixang was left alone to govern itself. That does not meant it is granted independence. Mao’s 17 points agreement is for a peaceful settlement with the local authority; otherwise Mao could have rolled over Zixang like any other Chinese provinces. Your claim that Dalai Lama’s 50 years of exemplary records is misleading. On the surface President Bush does not kill, main, wound, torture thousands of Iraqis, send millions Iraqis into exile in other countries and displace million of Iraqis. He is for the good future of the Iraqis. He is exemplary. Right? I hope you understand. Please retrieve “Some of the arguments are insult to our American readers' intelligence”. I’m an American reader and found those arguments enlightening. You mentioned PhD programs on Zixang in every major university in the world. Those universities must have a lot of Zixang valuable artifacts, documents that even the exile Zixang government in India doesn’t have. They must have been stolen and plundered by the countries of those universities from Zixang and from Xangs. Don;’t tell me that PRC donates them. You imply that, from now on the, Zixang culture is under the control of Western countries and under the direction of Western nationals. Then those universities are executing Zixang cultural genocide. It is similar to the fact that the most valuable Egyptian ancient treasures are plundered and are in foreign museums. It is exhilarating to know that the most important Xang ancient relics and documents are meticulously preserved in Zixang and the Zixang culture are taught in Zixang university under the control of Xangs and taught by Xangs. I hope you understand. You mentioned Quebec. You must know that Quebec develop at the same rate as the rest of Canada. So the Quebecans are qualified for any jobs available. Most Xangs are illiterate just as in other rural China. The recent prosperity starts from China coastal cities and spread inland. So naturally Xangs and other rural China have to play catch up. There are Xang representatives in PRC Congress and high level Xang administrators in local Zixang government. I hope you understand. You seem to raise the difference between the Xangs and the rest of Chinese and Xangs suffering to drive your or a relatively small number of Xangs’ political ambition. Just to remind you that the majority of Xangs are against you and would not allow you all to come to Zixang to spread your agitation and unrest.

Anonymous 9:47:

Actually felony murder is not good law in many states and it has been removed from the Model Penal Code. Many legal scholars both conservative and liberal believe that felony murder leads to unjust results, for example in New York a criminal was convicted for felony murder when he robbed a convenience store and a police offer died while pursuing him across some apartment rooftops.

In America we believe that it is the evil intent that should be punished and that unintended consequences aren't always punishable.

A person can still get convicted of depraved indifference murder if they were to set a fire without any regard for the potential loss of life. That's different than felony murder though and is more difficult to prove.

To Khechok,

If you accidantally killed someone by setting fire to a shop, you still have committed felony murder. I hope that you will not accidentally set any place on fire in the U.S. soon.

Scotland and Tibet are the same.
Free Scotland from centuries of English tyranny!

The Kingdom of Scotland was an independent state from 843 to 1707.

Scotland will fight for independence.
Nemo me impune lacessit
Wha daur meddle wi me?
Who dare meddle with me?

Free Scotland! No to English imperialism!

Zephon, et al,

Good Morning,

Chinese Spy 'Slept' In U.S. for 2 Decades
Espionage Network Said to Be Growing

By Joby Warrick and Carrie Johnson
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, April 3, 2008; A01

Prosecutors called Chi Mak the "perfect sleeper agent," though he hardly looked the part. For two decades, the bespectacled Chinese-born engineer lived quietly with his wife in a Los Angeles suburb, buying a house and holding a steady job with a U.S. defense contractor, which rewarded him with promotions and a security clearance. Colleagues remembered him as a hard worker who often took paperwork home at night.

Eventually, Mak's job gave him access to sensitive plans for Navy ships, submarines and weapons. These he secretly copied and sent via courier to China -- fulfilling a mission that U.S. officials say he had been planning since the 1970s.

Mak was sentenced last week to 24 1/2 years in prison by a federal judge who described the lengthy term as a warning to China not to "send agents here to steal America's military secrets." But it may already be too late: According to U.S. intelligence and Justice Department officials, the Mak case represents only a small facet of an intelligence-gathering operation that has long been in place and is growing in size and sophistication.

The Chinese government, in an enterprise that one senior official likened to an "intellectual vacuum cleaner," has deployed a diverse network of professional spies, students, scientists and others to systematically collect U.S. know-how, the officials said. Some are trained in modern electronic techniques for snooping on wireless computer transactions. Others, such as Mak, are technical experts who have been in place for years and have blended into their communities.

"Chi Mak acknowledged that he had been placed in the United States more than 20 years earlier, in order to burrow into the defense-industrial establishment to steal secrets," Joel Brenner, the head of counterintelligence for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, said in an interview. "It speaks of deep patience," he said, and is part of a pattern.

Other recent prosecutions illustrate the scale of the problem. Mak, whose sentence capped an 18-month criminal probe, was the second U.S. citizen in the past two weeks to stand before a federal judge after being found guilty on espionage-related charges.

On Monday, former Defense Department analyst Gregg W. Bergersen pleaded guilty in Alexandria to charges that he gave classified information on U.S. weapons sales to a businessman who shared the data with a Chinese official.

In March, the Reston company WaveLab pleaded guilty to violating export laws when it shipped militarily sensitive power amplifiers to China, according to court papers. A lawyer for the company said it neglected to get proper licenses and did not engage in "underhanded" behavior.

Dongfan Chung, a Boeing engineer arrested in February for allegedly passing classified space shuttle and rocket documents to Chinese officials, was accused in court documents of responding to orders from Beijing as long ago as 1979 -- making him a second alleged longtime agent.

Yesterday, federal prosecutors in Chicago indicted a software engineer for allegedly stealing business trade secrets and trying to take more than 1,000 paper and electronic documents from a telecommunications company on a one-way trip to China last year.

The cases are among at least a dozen investigations of Chinese espionage that have yielded criminal charges or guilty pleas in the past year. Since 2000, Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials have launched more than 540 investigations of illegal technology exports to China.

The FBI recently heightened its counterintelligence operations against Chinese activities in the United States after Director Robert S. Mueller III cited "substantial concern" about aggressive attempts to use students, scientists and "front companies" to acquire military secrets.

Recent prosecutions indicate that Chinese agents have infiltrated sensitive military programs pertaining to nuclear missiles, submarine propulsion technology, night-vision capabilities and fighter pilot training -- all of which could help China modernize its programs while developing countermeasures against advanced weapons systems used by the United States and its allies.

"The intelligence services of the People's Republic of China pose a significant threat both to the national security and to the compromise of U.S. critical national assets," said William Carter, an FBI spokesman. "The PRC will remain a significant threat for a long time as they attempt to develop their military capabilities and to develop their economy in order to compete in today's world economy."

While military technology appears to be the top prize, the Chinese effort is also aimed at commercial and industrial technologies, which often are poorly protected, several officials said. "Espionage used to be a problem for the FBI, CIA and military, but now it's a problem for corporations," Brenner said. "It's no longer a cloak-and-dagger thing. It's about computer architecture and the soundness of electronic systems."

Calls placed to the Chinese Embassy in Washington requesting comment on recent spy cases were not returned. But Chinese officials have repeatedly denied that their country is stealing military technology. "We have reiterated many times that allegations that China stole U.S. military secrets are groundless and made out of ulterior motives," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang said at a recent news conference in Beijing, commenting on the Mak case.

But U.S. intelligence and defense officials say China has been able to use technology of U.S. origin in a new generation of advanced naval destroyers and quiet-running, stealthy submarines.

Some of those secrets may have been obtained with the help of Mak, a 67-year-old electrical engineer who became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1985 along with his wife, Rebecca Chiu Mak. The two settled in Southern California, where Mak eventually accepted a job with Power Paragon, a defense contractor that specialized in advanced naval propulsion technology. In 1996, Mak was given a security clearance at the "secret" level, which gave him access to sensitive engineering details for U.S. ships and submarines.

In 2003, Mak became the subject of an intensive federal investigation that included court-ordered wiretaps, secret property searches and the clandestine installation of a video camera inside his home. Through surveillance, FBI agents discovered that Mak was in the process of copying thousands of pages of technical documents onto computer disks, which he arranged to send to China using his brother and sister-in-law as couriers.

According to court documents, the Maks encrypted the disks to avoid detection and used coded words to arrange a drop-off of the disks to a Chinese intelligence operative. In one phone conversation, the brother, Tai Wang Mak, intimated that he would be traveling with his wife and a third companion he described as his "assistant" -- a reference, prosecutors said, to the disks, hidden in his luggage.

The plan was foiled on Oct. 28, 2005, when agents arrested Tai Wang Mak as he was preparing to board a plane at Los Angeles International Airport. Chi Mak and his wife were arrested at their home the same day.

A key piece of evidence was a to-do list of apparent intelligence targets, written in Chinese script. The note, which had been shredded, was retrieved from Chi Mak's garbage and painstakingly reassembled to reveal what prosecutors said were instructions from Beijing on the kinds of technology Mak should seek to acquire.

Mak, who testified in his defense at his six-week trial, denied he was a spy and said the information he copied was available from nonclassified sources on the Internet. Defense witnesses said that much, if not all, of the documents acquired by Mak were not officially classified, though transmitting them to China was prohibited under U.S. export laws. Mak's attorney, Ronald O. Kaye, said his client was a scapegoat for other U.S. intelligence failures and a "symbol of the government's cold war against the Chinese."

In another recent case, former Northrop Grumman scientist Noshir Gowadia, who helped build the B-2 bomber, was indicted last fall for allegedly sharing cruise missile data with the Chinese government during a half-dozen trips to China. He is scheduled to go on trial in October.

A defense lawyer for Gowadia did not return calls, but Gowadia's family in Hawaii has told local journalists that the charges stem from a misunderstanding.

Robert Clifton Burns, a Washington lawyer who specializes in export cases, said the Chinese acquisition of sophisticated U.S. technology "is fast coming out from under the radar" as authorities crack down on such shipments to foreign powers. But Burns, who closely tracks prosecutions in the area, said the government sometimes overstates the risks of exporting U.S. items.

"People who violate export laws should be thrown in jail, no question about it," Burns said. But he added that there are also people "who would be better addressed by . . . a civil result where they get a small fine."

For years I heard the word "genocide" been thrown around freely by DL group and their western handlers. With no actual figures to substantiate this wild claim, "cultural genocide"was later used to replace 'human genocide'. The current crisis , though well planned by western "humanitarian"and coordianated by DL group and executed by angry locals , the blame should be partically laid at China's doorstep. In the department of PR, the government has proved to be quite stupid and incompetent. Meanwhile the DL and his exiled followers have become the poster-boy of humanity's suffering.This figure of 140 deaths is as mysterious as the non-violence of the monks. Actually from news reports that I saw that among the list of deaths (not even close to 140) five on the list came forward saying "look, I am still alive"
Sensationalism may draw attention, but it is a poor way to build credibility.
Thank God for some young Western tourists'eyewitness accounts and video-tapes showing monks burning buildings and Zang min attacking Hans. Evan with those irrefutable evidences, I still read denials from DL's group: No, we tibetans are peace-loving and non-violent.
Alas, the urge to inflict cruelty is unfortunately a common human trait. The Hans do not have a patent on it. From well documented history and photos, the inhumanity and cruelty inflicted on serfs by their lords during the dark period of Xizang's history, one can deduct that indeed the impulse to commit cruelty is not Hans monopoly.
Still, both sides have to dialogue, have to reconcile. First, start with building goodwill towards each other. I wish all well.

Khechok,

I see that you are trying to convince me of the righteousness of your cause.

NO I don't need you, I can find the middle way myself as any decent human being can.

Look at what you post:

"Tibetans in thousands are being arrested that are being hauled away in the night time and tortured as we speak. 140 dead as we know and many more we don't know.

Yet Chinese citizens are on uproar when a dozen Chinese and Tibetans died of accident during the Tibetan uprising. It's called, manslaughter and not first degree murder, get it. I am sure a lot of the Tibetan protesters will get death sentence."

and always this:

"Tibetans suffered greatly under the Communist Chinese occupation and still continues to. However Tibetan struggle has always been non-violent due to Dalai lama's leadership."

You have no idea how many were killed but just throw out a number of 140 and added that thousands are being tortured as we speak! The facts that we do know, that many Hans were killed is almost trivial to you.

The Chinese government said that police were to treat protesters with restrain and from seeing videos from western tourists, that WAS the case and in some cases the police ran away from the mob!

How can you believe in the Middle Way and trivialize real deaths but mourn hypothetical deaths only because they are Tibetan???

Always all posts from Tibetans SHOW NO SYMPATHY for China's sufferings in the last 100 years. Yet, with some Chinese posts, there are always some sympathy for the Tibetans. In actuality, the Tibetans suffered less followed the breakup of the Qing than other parts in China. That suffering was horrific with famine that took millions of lives and Japanese brutality that took many more millions. What the Tibetans suffered after 1950 was probably similar to the rest of China, at the most a little more, but that was actually a piece of cake compared with famines and the Rape of Nanking.

I am beginning to think that Tibetans are spoiled by all the western and Hollywood attention.

You don't even live in Tibet. The Tibetans who live in Tibet are much more pro-China than the exiles, though of course many want the Dalai Lama to return. The exiles seem to live in fantasy land, thinking that they have all this glamorous western support that they can do no wrong and have this high moral ground where they are the only suffering people.

There is also no appreciation for any thing China has done for Tibet. Had Tibet been the playground for the American cowboys, Tibetans would have been exterminated as the Am Indians have! Yet, you are going to the cowboys for help think they are so good and China so evil. Think again!

It is PRECISELY THAT CHINA HAS SUFFERED SO MUCH THAT WE DON'T WANT TIBET TO BE A FOCUS OF ANOTHER BREAKUP!!! If Tibetans can understand even 10% that would be start of a dialogue, but that is not the case. I see zero sympathy for China. Their attitude seems to be that of westerners looking down on China and trivializing the achievements of China while promoting their self importance.

You also keep emphasizing how different Tibetans are to Han. Yet, it is I who take Mao to heart and drop this Great Han Chauvinism, but you cannot drop Tibetan chauvinism. What is a small difference in looks or skin color when you claim it is the Middle Way that is important? But in reality, when you keep emphasizing how different we are then you are not in the Middle Way.

Once we really drop chauvinism then the solution would be much clearer. And that solution would not be filled with unreasonable and self righteous demands and claims. People would not be so paranoid of each other because we accept each other as good human beings, and not as Tibetans or Hans or Manchus.

Basically you have not taken to heart what the Dalai Lama said, that Chinese are also a good people.

Khechok:

Actually I believe the DL and Chinese government can negotiate terms for his return.

There are several points on your post I agree with:

First I am all for putting the history behind us and moving forward. But while you make this statement you put too many historical interpretations that are arguable up. Just leave the history behind and think of a way forward.

I do not believe the DL has any intentions of bringing back serfdom as well.

I do believe the DL wants peace and prosperity for the Tibetan ethnic group.

However there are too many other numerous areas I do not agree with both historical and present and really don't wish to hammer out back and forth.

Bottom line is your requests to the Chinese government go far beyond anything I could ever imagine them agreeing to.

Put the history behind, ask to return to Tibet as spiritual leaders of the sect of Tibetan Buddhism that you all represent, it is my understanding that is the Yellow hat sect. That you all will work in harmony and peace with other Tibetan Buddhist sects and leaders and other religious or spiritual entities in the Chinese Tibetan province and elsewhere in China.

Say that you will stay out of the role of politics and governing the province and will abide by the local and central governments policies, rules and laws. That you will not work with foreign governments or NGO to undermine the integrity of the Chinese authorities.

Say that you will never bear arms or commit violence unless in need of self defense.

Work for a formal grievance process for when you all feel that something is wrong at both state and central levels.

Keep your presence in China in the goal of attaining spiritual awareness for you and your followers.

Ask for a monthly stipend so that you can help maintain your spiritual beliefs and educate your followers in those practices. Work with the scholars in place to maintain and build Tibetan culture.

Don't be surprised that many in the Tibetan exile group will need to go through re-education programs in the history, procedures, policies, and politics of China. You will probably be required to surrender any passports from other countries and denounce any citizenships you may have acquired while in exile. You will become Chinese citizens.

I have every reason to believe that the Chinese want to put this behind them as well and get on with the world of business and commerce. That they want their people to prosper, that would be all of you too, and that they want to protect the culture, language and customs of your people.

Much of this may be hard to handle, but as Buddhists, a wealth of humility will guide you through it.

Time and certainly numbers as you say are not on your side. It has been 50 years, in another 10 things will be drastically changed, and in 100 years few will care or know about this time. But in 3 months your current window will be closed. I would make a strategic play now and certainly not let violence and riots occur again anywhere in China, get those youths in control. China as a primarily Buddhist nation can be humble as well and should be willing to make more concessions, mostly material and in a nature of public appeasement.

Then again, I don't know much of anything at all, and so much of this could be for naught, and if you return - after time everything is negotiable as long as harmonious relations exist, but with this attitude and openness - it will behoove your cause and help the Chinese people and government open their arms for a welcome and embrace. Everyone wants a place to call home.

And I do wish all Tibetan's a safe journey down this road with peace, prosperity and harmony for all. Good luck.

Ah, I see all the right-wing McCarthy wannabes have come out of the woodwork, who see a red threat behind every door, under every bed. One suggests that the US should not allow so many Chinese students into the country, or send back to where they come from if they do not follow 'our values system'.So the old Joe's modern day heir-apparents want to be the judge, jury and executioner regarding new immirgants!
To all the neocons and neo-cold-war-warriors, since you all have expressed compassion on cosmic level for the oppressed Tibetans, have you shown the same for the Iraqis who were shocked-and-awed on account of non-existent WMDs, or the Palestines who have lived life of suffering and uncertainty for decades ? The problem with extremists (right or left, communist or fascist) is the fact they tend to use triple standard to judge things: one for themselves, one for their friends, one for their enemies (real or imagined). Also, there is always a racist lurking somehwere waiting to jump out.
Tibet was, is and always will be part of China. It has been since the 13th Cent., the Yuan dynasty. Though centuries earlier, the Tang emperor did marry one of his daughters the Wen Cheng Princess to the first Xizang (Tibet)king Song Zan Kan Bu as a goodwill gesture, but the relationship then was pretty loose. When I visited in 1986, at the first king's palace--yung Bu La Kang -- statues of the king and Wen Cheng were still in place.
If the West's intention towards Xizang was all humanitarian and honorable, then why the former colonist empire 'where the sun never sets' did invade Tibet in early 20th century? When the sun did set on the Brits, the US moved in in the 1950s, ever so subtly, not like the Brits with guns and soldiers. Just like when the French withdrew from Indo-china, the US moved in and jumped into a swamp that was Vietnam.
Due to its strategic position between the two largest Asian countries (India and China) and rich underground resources, the great "humanitarians", human rights advocates, freedom-promoters and masters-of -the-universe wannabes all have their eyes set on the poor oppressed human mass on that vast land mass for years. There could never be a better year than 2008 to sensationalize the issue.
Having said this, I did not mean to trivialize the human rights aspect of the Xizang issue. After the 3/14 riots, the Chinese people and government should do some very serious self-reflection on Xizang. First, change of attitude. Be more tolerant, more understanding , more embracing. Second, set up fact-finding investigation and reconciliation committee , made of both the Hans and Zangs to investigate local grievances and find solutions. Starting from there and see what happens. After the disruptions and violence against the Torch relay in London and Paris, a feverish surge of nationalism rose among Chinese , old and young, in and out of China. The cynical, cannot-see-beyond-the-tip-of -their-nose and ego-centered "humanitarians " wondered aloud:"oh, they must be paid to protest against the West. But why? why you dont hate your commie government? Look at us, we are so lovely, after all we are freedom and peace and democracy personified."
One of the shrikers on this site even suggested that anybody who has anything nice to say about China at all has to be a paid government agent. I will say this: on this planet, there are still some independently thinking, independently well off (need not to be paid by any government, red, white, black or green , to make a living), independently seeing human beings who loathe hypocricy, triple standard, who are not ideology-straitjacted to form some views on humans and things.
Stupidity combined with ignorance is a deadly curse for any human being to bear. Red-necks or green-necks would be well advised to read some history (local and foreign) before jumping to conclusions. As Socrates admonished : an un- examined life is not worthy of living. Thus, unexamined wars are not worthy of fighting, unexamined lies are not be believed, unexamined cult-figures are not to be worshipped.

Sorry as a few educated Tibetans who has traveled the world including China and Tibet, I don't have time to challenge and debate with all the Chinese apologists on Tibet.
 
      The numbers are not in our favour so I have to use my time wisely eg. 1 billion to 6 million Tibetans. Then only a few educated Tibetans.

      Thanks to the benevolent Chinese rule, the educated Tibetans are mostly in-exile. Fortunately with the truth and justice on our side, the world's conscience is behind our struggle for freedom and as you can see from this posting most of our friends are non-Tibetan.
 
      Thank you for standing up for truth, justice as Tibet has nothing to offer so your support is truly self-less and keep up the good work.
 
 
      Sorry for the harsh words but please take at as constructive criticism so that you can learn the root cause of the problem in Tibet accurately and truthfully. Once the root-cause is determined, then solutions will come naturally. As the paramount leader Deng Xiopeng whom I respect says, 'learn truth from facts'
 
     
First, Tibet, the size of wester Europe, must be opened up for foreign media, international monitors and even foreign tourist. Let's hear the voices of the Tibetans and their grievances without fear which is quite difficult.
 
      Tibetans in thousands are being arrested that are being hauled away in the night time and tortured as we speak. 140 dead as we know and many more we don't know.
 
      Yet Chinese citizens are on uproar when a dozen Chinese and Tibetans died of accident during the Tibetan uprising. It's called, manslaughter and not first degree murder, get it. I am sure a lot of the Tibetan protesters will get death sentence.
 
      What is China hiding in Tibet. Let the truth come out.
 
      Chinese troops shooting with live ammunition with intent to kill just as during the Tiannamen square massacre is considered 'first degree murder'. 140 peaceful Tibetans dead. Come on you cry about a dozen accidental victims including a couple of Tibetans which I feel sorry. That's called sensationalizing and inciting hatred by the Xinhua news.
 
      What about a few thousand executions by PRC annually and I am sure hundreds are prisoners of conscience. That's state terrorism and murder.
 
      Not like the Chinese Premier's baseless allegations without a shred of evidence that 'Dalai clique' started this 'riot'. Mr. Wen Jiabo, we are still waiting for concreate evidence from your govt. If we in the exile are found guilty, sure we need to be punished.
   
          Check Dalai Lama's message to the Chinese and the compromised middle-way proposal in www.dalailama.com and www.tibet.net
 
    Don't be blinded by the ultra-nationalist feeelings and Han chauvinism that your Chairman Moa even advised against. That's what I see in these Chinese posting about 'Kill all Tibetans' 'Kill Dalai Lama'. So enlighten your people.
 
      One more please don't repeat Xinhua's reasoning that Dalai lama will bring back theocracy and feudalism. Not true.
 
      He would gladly give up political power if Tibetans are happy. BTW, my parents were from a peasant family or serfs in old Tibet as you call them and not the old ruling call elitist. They did not suffered in the old Tibet as much as they suffered under the Chinese communist rule.
 
 

Huang, Zephon appear to have the capacity to digest new information, check the sources and rethink their long-held views on Tibet.

So I am going to move this discussion to higher level of discussing the middle-way proposal as a for a win-win solution to this long protracted problem.

So here is a little more details but do require sincerity, trust and courage to work through it.

A few basic preamble points:

1) Leave the historians to decide the Tibetan history quagmire and not as precondition for any discussions.
 
          2) Tibetans suffered greatly under the Communist Chinese occupation and still continues to. However Tibetan struggle has always been non-violent due to Dalai lama's leadership.
 
      3) Mao proposed a 17 point agreement and forced Tibetan rep to sign under duress. Alsot it's stipulated in the Chinese constitution . 17 point calls for cultural autonomy for all Tibetans and not just Tibetan autonomous Region. In reality Tibet has less freedom and autonomy than another province in China.
 
      4) Yet middle-way proposed that Tibetans will join China willingly as Tibet can benefit being part of China as it rises up to become a super-power. In return we want geniune autonomy. China can look after foreign policy and milatary. Similar to what Quebec gets it within Canada and Scotland within UK.
 
      5) You call greater Tibet, these regions are all traditional Tibetan inhabited regions who are all Tibetans that share the unique culture and want to preserve that way of life and protection of the unique environment.
 
 
      6) On a recent interview, the Tibetan elected prime minister in-exile, political head of Tibet who is not Dalai Lama. DL is a head of state.
 
      He said for the middle-way two points can not be changed but everything else is up for dialogue and negotiation.
 
      a) The history of Tibet can not be changed as it's for historians to judge so we can't accept . We will not accept only the 100 year Chinese revisionist history of Tibet that you guys are taught at school. Look at all the facts and let the historians come up with their conclusion.
 
      b) Tibetan autonomy must extend to all Tibetan inhabited areas as stipulated in the Chinese constitution and 17 point agreement. The purpose is to protect its unique culture from the onslaught of the Han culture in China. Admit it that out of the so-called 56 minorities, how many have really retained their unique culture, perhaps 2. I have been all over China.
 
      In Quebec, for example, where the French settled 500 years ago, you don't have to speak a word of English and still make a very good living with high-paying jobs speaking French only. Tibetan people in their own land in Tibet can not do that. There are many other examples. That's what we call 'cultural genocide' intentionally or un-intentionally it's happening.
 
      PRC concept is integration, melting pot where it's Han culture domination even though they claim it's land of 56 minorities. That must stop. Sorry can't compare to the US, Australia or Canada where immigrants moved here willingly so of course they have to speak English.
 
      So I don't see in the middle-way Chinese getting kicked out of Tibet nor no PLA soldiers in Tibet.

In fact, the Tibetan side is welcoming all Chinese who respect Tibetan culture and especially who are interested and become Tibetan buddhist. There are at least a million Chinese who have become Tibetan buddhists. I have met many in Beijing and Shanghai. Even though I am yet to meet one Chinese who can speak and read Tibetan. So there is long way to go but I believe there is a sizable number of well off Chinese who are showing great interest. BTW, Jet Li is a devout Tibetan buddhist and they are many more ... another Chinese hollywood crowd.
 
     

LOL

Yes ... it has to be! Anyone that disagrees with the Western propaganda that China is this totalitarian, genocide causing human rights disaster that eats their own children for breakfast and practices devil worship naked during the full moon soaked in mud must be a Chinese agent.

It must be. It just must be!!!! How could the American government and media lie. I just know there were WMDs in the Iraqi desert.

There are Chinese spies everywhere, they are in communication with aliens from mars that are responsible for keeping the dark side of the moon hidden from our view while they complete their invasion force to turn us into food. We better prepare our selves for war, put on your Nike's and kneel before the great Shrub. But first check your closet. I hear those Chinese spies like to hide there, they are watching everything we do, they are behind that tan with yellow stripes leisure suit you have been saving for that "special" occasion.

And all the sheep that take the pill every day as told are patriotic Americans that cannot be wrong. God bless America!

LMAO!!!!

Those of you who work for the chinese media bureau, foreign affair department, and consulates, especially those who are in the joint propaganda task force specifically assigned to promulgate "success" of china and defend any critic in this open blog forum should cease from this discussion. Your pattern, style, and presentation of the writings are easily identifiable by the experts in pattern-writing. And, they have been identified.
This is a forum for free discussion among interested people on subjects that might relate to china, as part of United States of America's freedom of speech. It is only ethical for a country not to engage in deceit and maneuvers involving public freedom of discussion, especially in the US. It is therefore imperative for such agent(s) to cease your operations in any bogus discussions. Such practice is condemnable, and as a country is also diplomatically unacceptable.

You are really, really good, Mr. Pomfret.

China's reopening of negotiation with Dalai Lama, the biggest concession made so far in the Olympic crisis, was announced immediately after the French visit, NOT after calls for boycott from Britain and Germany, or Bill's wife.

Alluding briefly to the exchange rate-a totally separate subject- amid the discussion is an anticipated and seemingly smart move. Readers took the hint well that the United States is the only force behind this, and all any other, success in pressuring China. The world is really a one-man game, isn't it? France, the so-called ally, would be reduced to diplomatic clown if it dares to make peace with others by itself.

All these remind me of the Greek Sophist and their specious reasoning.

"The making and breaking-up of a nation has nothing to do with justice or anything else but the power of involved parties."

Has some truth, but this cynicism then leads to more cynicism and soon there is nothing to guide policy but naked power.

I think that a long lasting culture HAS to have morality as a guiding factor. That is why I am positive to the Dalai Lama's message though I wonder about how much he's being used as a pawn of great powers.

Anonymous:
You are missing the point I was trying to make. History has taught us, world politcs is all about power and money, not about right and wrong. You seem to believe otherwise. If you are genuine about your belief, why don't you promote freedom for Hawii who was annexed by US in the 1970+. How about hundreds and thousands of Iraqi children die in the hand of US military. How about 4 millions Iraqi refugee living in neighboring countries. Does US have any moral obligation to accept at least some of them into US as refugee. What about their human right to live in peace in their own home. Using double standard to promote selective human right issue does not sit well with most Asians. I myself can not be called a communist sypathizer because I only visit China once in my life time.

Dude:
Stop bickering and wasting your time here. The making and breaking-up of a nation has nothing to do with justice or anything else but the power of involved parties.

Dalai is an old man and he'll die soon. The 15th Dalai lama will be selected by the Chinese government, like or not. This new Dalai lama, just like Panchen lama selected by the Chinses recently, will be pro-China. The west is loosing their pawns. Do not waste your time here anymore. If you want to have a independent Tibet, you pick up a gun and die for it or you tell Uncle Sam to bomb the Chinese if Uncle Sam dares.

This is fun to watch

To all readers:
The current dramatized Tibet event is nothing more then a speed bump. Other incidents will take place before the Olympic is over. Even after the Olympic, there will be other incidents, but of cause Olympic has provide an excellent platform for the China hackers.

The present world political system is a single porlar system, USA as the victor of cold war and the only supper power occupying the commanding post without any other nation to check and ballance the power of USA.But the situation is changing. Russia , China and EU are emerging as potential polars( Japan will never be a polar, India may be but has a long way to go). This process is creating agony, paint and trouble. The relationship amongst these nations are very complicated and intriguing. China is viewed the most dangerous threat to the USA, so eventurly will be attacked the most. Until there is another political system establish, the chess game will go on. Human Rights, Democracy , Free-speech and such can be used or discarded willingly.

We are all victims of the political game.

"Years from now, would your local dialect disappear? Would u miss it?
Perhaps Tibetans will lead the way for preservation of all local dialects."

Good question. For now, this system is to provide a common language so that communications and business can be conducted efficiently. There is no hidden agenda of cultural genocide as claimed by the Tibetans.

What you say is that the UNINTENDED consequences could be the loss of one's local dialect which is a different issue. Yes, very possible, and that is why a combination of Mandarin and local dialect, as in Tibet, is better than all Mandarin.

It is important to preserve one's dialect.

HUANG wrote:
"Now they claim cultural genocide because Tibetan are given the chioce to use Tibetan, Mandarin or a combination at high school! Well ALL of China has less choice than Tibet. In high school all lesson are conducted in Mandarin. At home ones then switches back to the local dialect. No one considers that cultural genocide except Tibetans."

Years from now, would your local dialect disappear? Would u miss it?
Perhaps Tibetans will lead the way for preservation of all local dialects.

The way the Tibetan are going about getting more autonomy or independence seems somehow not right.

One would expect the underdog to show some humility and have discreet discussions with China.

Yet, though I have sympathy with them, I hear so many lies that I also get very annoyed.

For example, it is claimed that China has committed genocide and a very specific number of 1.2 million. There is ZERO evidence for that but naive western people believe that.

The key is western. The Tibetans seems more interested in getting western attention than Chinese attention.

They also claim the Chinese torture Tibetans day and night, yet you can fly to Tibet and talk to the people, and actually many people have gone on backpack treks in Tibet with no Chinese guides. They freely talk to Tibetans and it is nothing like that.

Now they claim cultural genocide because Tibetan are given the chioce to use Tibetan, Mandarin or a combination at high school! Well ALL of China has less choice than Tibet. In high school all lesson are conducted in Mandarin. At home ones then switches back to the local dialect. No one considers that cultural genocide except Tibetans.

Now my Am friends ask me "why do you people like to torture so much?" I try to explain but the attitude is that I am just repeating Chinese propaganda.

So the Tibetan propaganda is creating divisions between westerners and Chinese as well as great misunderstanding between Chinese and Tibetans. This split seem more to be masterminded by politicians than a simple people wanting more freedom from China.

I looked up Dali Lama's position on the Iraq War. In 2004 he was asked about the Iraq war and he said that he had NO opinion. After 3 more years, in 2007, when it was clear even to little children that the war was violence based on lies, the DL again said that he had NO opinion and that only the future will tell if the war was just or not!!!

ALL of the elder statesman such as Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela and Jimmy Carter are strongly anti-Iraq war, with the exception of the Dali Lama. Why is that? If you look up his other positions one will get a sense that they are in perfect step with American policy.

I know that CIA direct funding for the Dali Lama stopped in the 1970's. Yet, the whole style of getting attention is more a divide and conquer style than that of a powerless people trying to softly convince a big power to allow more freedom.

The Dalai Lama himself certainly says he is 100% non-violent and only speaks truth. But he says nothing when his follwers spread lies and the whole education system at Dharamsala teaches these lies.

In 1954, the Dali Lama was invited to Beijing at the invitation of Mao and Mao wanted him to sit next to him showing Mao's respect for him. Mao treated him like an old friend, personally served the Dala Lama food from the table. Mao personally ask the DL to report on progress in Tibet to him and that China will support Tibet as much as she can.

Today, ther is no mention of China's aid, no mention of the good will. Everthing mentioned is evil and torture. So I understand why many Chinese are angry at the Tibetans and are less willing to grant them greater autonomy.

If they are playing a great powers game for the west, it the end it will be bad for everybody.

I really hate to put down the DL but I am pointing out what I know. If I am in misunderstanding then I am open to new information.

It's time to boycott Chinese made products, folks. If you're as disgusted by the seemingly endless twisting of the truth and attempts at rationalzing so often evidenced here, you can clearly demonstrate your disgust with Totalitarian China by not lending your financial support. Choose not to buy, "Made In China".

China's brutal treatment of Tibet, China's long overall history of terrible human rights abuses, blatant pollution of our environment, etc., etc, make a boycott, even if only carried out by a minority of good people, something that they can understand.

Look at the labels. When buying online, if it's not stated, call or email. Companies are listening; months ago, even before the Olympic debacle, customer service rep's. were telling me they were receiving more and more calls from like-minded people. People are finally connecting the dots.

Communist, Totalitarian China's economic "success" is founded on unfair and immoral advantages. Their Totalitarian government exploits its own workers, allows pollution that would never be allowed in Western nations, and has practiced policies such as subsidies and currency manipulation. I have always wondered how these products can be legally purchased in the West, yet could never be produced under those conditions here??

When you purchase products made in Chia, you are implicitly supporting this, to the detriment of competing companies that would like to operate ethically in the West. And, to a very large extent, you are financially enabling the current Chinese Totalitarian regime.

We are losing our middle class to "made in China". Many people in the West have fallen out of our cherished middle class, because of so many formerly decent paying jobs (with health care) leaving and ending up in China, because of the unfair and immoral business cost advantages this Totalitarian state confers.

Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Vote with your pocketbook. Purchase only products made in nations that respect human rights, our environment, and rule of law.

TO ZEPHON SAID:
'Actually Chinese people can. They can live and do business anywhere in the country, which some Tibetan people apparently don't like.'

Do you know the system of 'Hukou'? Yes, Chinese people can actually live and do business snywhere in the country, but the possiblity to get coverage of social secuity benefits is strictly related to the 'Hukou'. That means if you leave at the place where you registered your Hukou, you will lost lots of your benefits. For example, the majority of Han population in Lasah are non-registered economical migrants, the government only treats them like short-term migrant workers.

Zephon, Ronald, et al,

You spin seemingly endlessly, relate countless, specious analogies attempting to equate the West's several admitedly brutal and inhumane, but mostly distant historical acts, with China's brutal, ongoing oppression of Tibetans. This, in spite of the West being solidly democratic in structure now, and having achieved very meaningful progress in respect to human rights, while China has, well.. not. You recite your versions of the histories of China, Tibet, and China & Tibet together, but it's all Totalitarian self-serving b.s.

Tibet has been composed of a seperate and distinct people who have had a long, established culture there. They simply desire to be free, and to live the way they choose. They are no threat to China. Why can't you leave them alone?

It's not as complicated as you struggle at such unbelievably great lengths, to make it out to be. While historical context is somewhat meaningful, your gross overemphasis of your versions of history seem a blatant Totalitarian smokescreen put up to obfuscate relevance and context, and ultimately, to attempt to rationalize this great wrong. It is characteristic behavior for Totalitarian regimes, and particularly so for China's. This is indefensible to fair minded, freedom loving people, yet you continue at great length to attempt to defend Totalitarian behaviour.. I know what Shakepeare had to say about your kind, and it's as apt today, as then.

You are right to say that there are always some Western countries that try to benefit from the West's pressure on China. Back in 1989, when most Western countries boycotted China for Tiananmen Square uprising, Japanese, German and Korean companies flooded into China and quickly filled in the vacuum left behind by American, French and British. That's why the West's pressure on China will never produce any result we want.

To your question 3) I would like to see increased ability of the people of China to move around freely and live anywhere they want in the country

Actually Chinese people can. They can live and do business anywhere in the country, which some Tibetan people apparently don't like.

I highly recommend the recent issue of National Geographics Magazine, which I think is pretty objective. If you can read it without any prejudice, you'll understant how a chinese feel of its country today.

As a chinese, I agree with some of your points.
Such as the government should do more to improve free speech. Thats true.

But what I see from when I was a kid to now are already quite different. In VERY EARLY 1980s, my parents educated me not to say anything bad about the country, cuz its dangerous due to the bad image of communist party during 1966~1976 Cultural Revolution. But now, many people complain about Communist Party corruptions on blogs or BBS or on streets but no longer draw much attention from authorities, as long as you don't damage stuff or hurt people or turn the busy city into a big chaos. Although, bashing the party to hard CAN be a problem as the government thinks you are trying to subvert it. But anyway, a violent uprising against the communist party now seems pointless as people's lives in general are getting better and nobody wants to stop their own busy "gold digging".

As for free protests, i want to tell you something I know. As the state run factories are being transformed to private corporation over the past decade, many who lost jobs has gone onto streets and protest. Those protesters are fine, again, as long as they don't attack any one. But there are some arrested, as I heard, when they destroyed other peoples cars on the streets.

Back home, the economy is growing really fast and problems are growing fast too. As the recent issue of National Geographics said, it's like compacting the 50 year development in US into 10 years in China. The old pure commnunist style government is adapting to this, while some other communists pointed out that Chinese Communist Party are "traitors of real communism" and are turning into "greedy capitalists". I believe it's going to be better. Of course, it would be better if more parties can run this great country jointly. But again, by civil war? No. Let's look at the recent improved relationship between CCP and Taiwan's democratic Nationalist Party and see how close these 2 parties can go together, there is hope.

What do you think?

I'll post some of my opinions about Tibet issue later.

Do you know during the 1911 Chinese Revolution, Every province in the southern and northwestern China once claimed independence? Even Shanghai once was independent. Some provinces like Shan'xi, Guangxi, Yunnan, Sichuan and Gansu even kept the de facto independence for quite long time (till the Japanese Invasion), they had their own currency, stamps and warlord governments. The excuse of Tibet being independent from 1912 to 1951 made no sense to any Chinese. Other provinces united again in 1949, why Tibet can be special?

Khechok:

Yes I still believe the CIA is backing and funding the Tibetan exile group. Such as this article helps clarify for you and others. So to me this is still the truth. There was another very recent article in Germany that I would reference that points out the current violence in TIbet CIA funded.

globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6530

What I said is that I believe your statement that the Dalai Lama asked his troops to put down their arms in Nepal (post fleeing China) after the unsuccessful uprising against the Chinese. I don't know if this is because of his words of peace or perhaps because the Nepal government told him to tell them so. I'll be looking into that more. I prefer the former. You did give me hope that DL is more than a man of words so I am still doing research and I will get the books you recommended and read them.

Gotta go to Bday party now.

Just to poke a point out of Khechok's long rambling, what makes the difference between patriotism and nationalism? What it shows about your underlying attitude when you and alike refer to the sentiment from Chinese as nationalism while refering to the same stuff from Americans or British as patriotism?

OK Andrew I'll play your game.

5 things I would help/change, problems with the Chinese government.

1) They have a serious need to expand and continue the gains in wealth, education and healthcare to the remote populations in China, including Tibet. Currently the reforms made in the past two decades have been felt by those that live primarily in urban areas, including Lhasa, but especially in places like Beijing and Shanghai. This will help in further reducing problems in revitalization movements such as this one. Except certain groups, like Buddhist monks getting monthly stipends spinning prayer wheels and praying will feel left behind because there pay will go down relative to others that engage in free enterprise.

2) I would like to see China and the rest of the world disarm and disband their armies to the point that they could never project force beyond their borders - and not sell anyone weapons or use their military force to subjugate or exert authority on those outside of their border. Too use their military only for the protection and defense of their territorial integrity.

3) I would like to see increased ability of the people of China to move around freely and live anywhere they want in the country

4) I would like to see improved workers rights in China. This could come about with labor reforms that many industrial nations are fighting against (AKA Abramhoff/DeLay), increased quality control on goods and services produced. This will probably need increased control of global corporations that are only interested in their profits that are operating in China, reforms again western nations will probably fight against. Some of these problems with capitalism are creeping into China. They need things like the Taft-Hartley act and Sherman act here in the states to control monopolies and oligopolies. Unfortunately, the USA rarely enforces these laws, unless you are on the wrong side of the isle of the powers that be in place here.

5) I would like to see increased environmental protections in China

And to add to your note. I am very much an American Patriot. And I support individual and states freedoms from others as part of that commitment to peace and freedoms. If people really believed in the founding principles of modern American's forefathers they would be aghast the ideas that Americans should instill their values and culture on other countries.

And yes my name calling of ignorance is based on your earlier assumption you made that I am Chinese, and again in this most recent post you say again I am a Chinese Nationalist and you doubt that I was born, raised in the American midwest. As a military brat and ex-Naval officer I spent most of my early life near Fort Carson Colorado and attended Catholic kindergarten and further (hated those habited and stuffy Nuns) there at the age of 4 before moving to Cheyenne.

Well I also know nothing of you other than your posts that allows me to make that statement.

And yes the US media is heavily censored and manipulated. Do you not like the NYTimes? One of the last independent voices of truth in the USA. If you read last weeks NYTimes article on how the Pentagon manipulated the Media and the USA public opinion and still don't understand how little freedom of press we really have here in the USA. There is little hope for you to change - you would probably believe the Dorgan amendment will bring more freedom of press like it's name implies but intent is far from. Ahhh the power of monopoly and oligopoly power is sooo alive and well for the citizens of the USA. Rupert Murdoch loves people like you.

The media may print most everything but there is no longer serious investigative reporters out there anymore. Mostly AP news. The investigative reporters were either fired or hemmed in by their editors years ago. When there is good investigative reporting like the NYTimes still does it is quashed like this article that got so little attention even though it took 2 years and many peoples work.

Some of this change was because of reduced profitability due to the emerging news sources such as on the Internet that are truly "free" - they cannot be controlled well, here and in China or the rest of the world. You can thank people like me for fighting those battles against SNA and token based architectures in favor of peer-to-peer CSMA/CD networking.

And yes I have been reading 3-6 newspapers every day since the 70s when at Annapolis I had to have 3 articles ready for summary for my seniors before breakfast.

NO people on this planet will be against their government if the government can lead a 30 years long double digit economical growth. Even if the government had a bad history, but which country's government has no bad history? As long as the government is doing almost right thing currently, people will forgive the past.

Wow, I was just out for a day and there has been so much lies, misinformation, distortion of Tibetan history, current situation, Dalai Lama, PRC policies, history of Tibet under the CCP, Xinhua propaganda from Chinese (apologists) posters whose knowledge on Tibet, current situation and history seems limited at best yet gives an impression that they are some kind of expert defending the PRC's policies.

Some of the arguments are insult to our American readers' intelligence.

Zephon, I urge you not to spread lies and distortion. One point I took the time to exlpain about funding sources of the Tibetan struggle, you continue to repeat about CIA funding. I thought you agreed not to tell lies again. So keep to your words. If it is, I have no problem admitting but its not true. It's transparent and check the sourc. There is US govt funding to aid Tibetan refugees in India similar to other refugees. This is in a couple of million dollars unlike the billions that eg. Palestinian receives from Western countries alone not including the billions from the Arab countries.

I will respond to Huang, who seems to have some understanding but I would still urge Huang to study more about Tibet objectively as some of your information is quite disappointing that you know so little about Tibet and Tibetans.

First, Huang, Tibetan names unlike Chinese, Korean etc are not each syllable as it's not character based, so it's never KheChok or Khe Chok. It's Khechok, like Michael. You won't dissect it to Mi Chael. So let me tackle your first premise about your point that somehow there is some ethnic commonness between Han and Tibetan races as it's similar to Guangdong dialect Southern Chinese to Northern Mandarin Chinese.

BTW, there is no Tibetan word or distinction between Han or Chinese. It's called 'gyame' in Tibetan as Tibetans are called 'bodpa' and Indians are called 'gyakar'.

So this new terminology called 'Tung Go' is something created in the last 100 years by Sun Yat Tsen and has no historical basis.

In terms of the Tibetan and Chinese (if you will Han), they are more different than Chinese to Korea and Japan.

Tibetan written and spoken languages are completely different. Writing system is based on Indian Sanskrit which is alphabet based instead of Character based. The native Tibetan religion is Bon shamanistic and the new religion of Buddhism came from India based on Indian Buddhism instead of Chinese Buddhism. The people migration to this land over 20,000 year ago is also believed to be central asia and not east asia.

Tibet had a great civilization with great monuments like Potala, unique architecture, with literally hundreds of different dialects and I argue just as many as in China but the basic writing, way of life, belief system are same.

So Tibet cannot be lumped together with these 56 minorities as a lot them are tribal ethnic based and not a nation with long history of civilization. That's why the Tibetan studies program is in every major universities in the world with Phd programes with many scholars because of its richness, diversity and depth. Therefore, China is proving it difficult to assimilate Tibetans unlike most of its minorities. It's analogy to Germany occupying France and trying to assimilate all to Germans.

The most rediculous argument I heard is somehow compare China to the US and compare the minorities between the two countries. That is truly insult to the intelligence of lack of American, Chinese and Tibetan histories, the current reality and laws.

I don't know the age of these Chinese posters. I imagine less than 30 with very strong Nationalism, a bit of Han Chauvinism and lack of critical thinking. Sorry for the harsh words.

Chinese communist party's constitution is based on Soviet's, with respect to minority laws and history. Although, some of the minority laws changed in early 80s where national unity and stability is considered more important.

The reality is that the Chinese constitution is not practiced as the policy contiues to be homogenization of entire China into one Han culture/language.

America is a land of immigrants where people came here on their own due to problems in their respective homelands and to seek better lives economically and politically. This is the American dream and the melting pot where you don't bring your old customs and problems. You are starting a new country and of course you speak English and assimilate.

With Tibet, Tibetans are the indeginous people that was invaded by China and trying to assimilate in this 21st century where colonism, imperialism, cultural annilation are 100 years old and passe.

Absolutely what happened to the North American native population was a crime against humanity but that was over 100 years ago when injustices like this happened all around the world by the European imperialistic empires. No one can admit it's happening now.

Also one could argue that Tibet had a civilization with its own writing system and deep cultural, philosiphical traditions that extended to China, Nepal, Mongolia, Russia so of course it's much harder to assimilate but without Tibet (once completed assimilated to Han culture), Tibetan culture and spiritual tradition will not survive outside as the exile community is so small.

In terms of historical facts are as follows :

1) Prior to Moa's army occupation in 1951, there were less than half a dozen Chinese in all of Tibet. How can you govern Tibet with that many people.

2) The 13th Dalai Lama kicked out the remaining Manchu emperor's representative, 'Amban' around 1914's and declared complete independence.

3) It is true that the Tibetan government don't have complete control over most of the Kham and Amdo provinces as they were governed by tribal chiefs and warlords much like Afghanistan.

4) Tibet had its own currency, stamps, passport and even measurements. They didn't pay a dime to the Chinese emperors and infact the emperors became the patron of the Tibetan buddhism.

5) Tibetan govt had its own army, although quite weak who were trained by and supplied by British India. Tibetan govt sought military support from Chinese, Manchu, Mongols, British India, White Russians and even Nepal. Quite sad as the national priority is spiritual matters which did produced remarkable scholars and geniuses. Infact one scholar told me that per capita Tibetan written literature/philosphy is the most in the old world but neglected greatly in the governing of its own affairs, military, foreign affairs etc.

So even Moa recognized the special status of Tibet and signed the 17 point agreement that doesn't exist with any other provinces.

All of the Xinhau's and CCP fabricated history old Tibet being serfs/slaves, CIA funding, Nazi connection, current so-called violence and even Human rights are all red herring and do not help solve this current problem.

However I will quickly add some reality:

Serf/Slave: Tibet was feudal but not as oppressive as the Chinese feudalism. They are many reasons of it being not as oppressive for later discussions.

Nazi connection. Check the source and there is no shread of evidence. Heinrich Harrer was found to be member of SS only in early 1990s. He was exonerated by Jewish Nazi hunter, Simon Wisenthal as he was in Tibet during the Nazi atrocities

Current violence in Lhasa riot - I feel sad for the dozen innocent victims but there is no evidence of intentional killing by the protestors as they are accident as most were hiding in the buildings that were burned. Yet prior to the riot, the monks protested peacefully for 4 days from March10 to 14 and they were brutally cracked down. There are pictures of Chinese military using live ammunition and 140 Tibetan were killed intentionally by the Chinese force all over Tibet where there were over 50 protests. Lhasa was only one. This was not a small group and don't dismiss it. The discontent and grievances are real and felt by majority of the Tibetans.

CIA funding - I have already explained as there was funding in the 60's but relatively small.

One great thing about the Tibetan position is completely transparent that you can read and study. As you know you can't say that with China. Chairman Hu Jintao hasn't given one interview yet and don't know much about him. Forget about the previous leaders even the current is not known in this 21st century.

Look at Dalai Lama, his life in-exile of 50 years of exemplary records is completely open with thousands of teachings, interviews, writings, speeches and accessible etc and yet can't find one scandal. He is as real as you can find any individual. Back to my original post, why so much hatred from the Chinese. I am still waiting for some feedback?

Someone mentioned about CIA instigated the 1959 uprising. Not true. It was a people uprising just as the recent uprising.

CIA didn't get involve until later. Yes Dalai Lama's brother was one of the leaders but he is also the one who started talking directly with the Deng Xiopeng and Central govt in late 70's on Tibet. His wife was a Chinese and daughter of a high ranking revolutionary General. Deng said except Independence everything else can be discussed and negotiated. That's why the middle-way proposal by Dalai lama but unfortunately Tianneman Square happened and the talks stalled without any agreements.

Anymore events to shed a light that I will gladly respond. Don't get fixated on the history quagmire.

If you wanted to solve this problem, look at Dalai Lama and read the middle-way approach which should be acceptable to both. If you want to incite lies, hatred, propaganda, then it's waste of everyone's time. thanks

(sorry for the typo and spelling mistakes as these were written on the fly without spell check)

Khechok

Zephon:

"To Andrew:

Why as an American should I try to name 5 things I do not like about China."

Why not? I honestly don't care what nationality you are (I doubt you're from the Midwest like you say, but I'm not here to argue that). It doesn't matter where you're from, because you are obviously still a Chinese nationalist (at least more so than you are an American nationalist). I did not ask anything that hard of you, and yet instead you call me ignorant, when you as well know nothing about me.

Here, I will even make this easier for you by listing 5 things I LIKE about the Chinese government:

-It has improved the lives of more Chinese than any previous Chinese government.
-It has become a relatively peaceful member of the international community, especially compared to Mao's China.
-China has become an important trading partner of the West and is getting some of the attention it deserves (and it certainly deserves some respect and attention).
-I believe China should hold the Olympics, and I will watch it.
-Compared to previous Chinese governments, this one has done more for the world and for its own citizens. China is a big contributor now to the sciences and arts, and without China the rest of the world would be in big trouble.

There, I have done my part. Even though I am a big critic of China, and have many, many complaints of the Chinese government, I still managed to find 5 nice things to say. Now, it is your turn to say 5 not as nice things about the Chinese government. I am not being ignorant, I am asking you to see the opposite point of view. If you can't do that, then YOU are the ignorant one, who does not deserve to be in any legitimate debate about China.

P.S.- If you are honestly trying to say that the US press is censored, then you are truly a comedian. The fact that could cite an article in the NY Times mentioning how the Pentagon tried to manipulate the media is an example. The only good thing to come from corporate media is that they need good articles and topics in order to continue selling, and now groups like the NY Times and the Washington Post and TV outlets are notorious for NOT holding stories back, but reporting everything. Anyone in the US can start a newspaper tomorrow, and print just about whatever he/she want, especially anything he wants about those in power. Maybe its because I am not Chinese, maybe it's because I grew up in the US, but I believe in the infallibility of the freedom of the press anywhere in the world, and if you really are from the US, I reckon you would as well.

The Chinese media blamed the Tibetan unrest on the "Dalai Clique". This is an admission that many Tibetans in China still miss the Dalai Lama.

saimneor,

Here are the historical facts that you should be aware of before trying to promote estern democracy as the best and/or only political system worthwhile in the world.
USA independent movement against England was not about freedom but about heavy tax imposed on them to support to the war against the French for world domination. That is the reason why The French supported the independence war with naval presence in North America and gave the status of liberty to the US after the war. Without French naval support, the revolution would have failed.
US has never been a country but a union of different states. Ablility to seced at any time is the constitutional right gurranteened. Yet Lincoln started a civil war after the Southern states has seced from the union. Although it was framed as a war to abolish slavery, Lincoln himself has said it that he would give up on abolishing slavery if it is what it takes to keep the union together. He even captured escaped slaves at the beginning of the war and returned them to their rightful owners. He later established an massive concentration camp (the first in the history)to house the escaped slaves knowing that it will undermine the war effort of the South. When he need more people to join the war, he admit black people to the army against the objective of Senators. He even put them in jail for that. Where is the freedom of speech and human right. The constitution said that all men are created equal. What they meant was white men? It does not even include white women. The change Australian goverment made recently to immigration policy(white only Policy) was not forced upon them from outside. (US was quite silent about it too. A slap on the face of human right proponents.)It is the economic reality on the ground that forced Australian to change. (Economic stagnation or expand trade with their neighbors in Asia). They abolished their white only policy in the 1970s and faced up to their past in 2000s because more and more new immigrants are visible minority and they have the right to vote. That is why it is laugable that all of sudden Australia has become a human right protector. Western countries has been a supporters of Indonesian oppression and killing of East timor people for a long time during the cold war. Upon discovery of huge oil field off the coast of East Timor, all of a sudden, human right abuses become a battle cry of western intervention and Australians sent in the troops. Now East Timor is said to be an indenpent demacratic country with brutal civil war and foreign occupation. All the oil field are now in the hand of western countries, mainly Australians. I just wonder what is really behind the recent rush to push for democracy in China and calling the government, oppressive and brutal dictorship that should be overthrown.(even most Chinese living in China disagree with that). I was told that Soros the biggest money contributors to the cause of free Tibet, has already secured large mineral right in Tibet from the so-called exil government. Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't that why Dalia Lama and his followers want the true automony, a code word for taking mineral right back from central government and give it to Soro. Promoting demacracy is about economic control of developing countries and not about human right. Asians and the rest of the world are not as stupid as the western media make them to be.
Make the case of Taiwan democratic movement. It was forced upon them by Washington. The Taiwan indenpent proponents, I met quite a few of them, was quite racists. It is laugable that they admit that they are Han Chinese and they hate the Han people who arrived after 1950 and call them stupid and backward. They said that they will threw them into the sea if they refuse to accept their vision of Taiwan. Look at the violence and chaotic result from every election, one should wonder without threat of war from China, civil war and ethic cleansing would have been a reality in Taiwan. All US care about is selling arms to Taiwanese government. Senators after senators stood up in the congress to talk about protection of Taiwan democracy. As soon as they leave the podium, they went to Taiwan in bunches to promote arm sales. Why are they not worried about military secrets being stolened/leaked to China. After all, Taiwan is a lot of closer to Mainland then the US. There are a lot of sympathizers/spys in Taiwan than in the US.

What Chinese government did in Tibet is totally against the interest of the majority Hans.
It must be either that the government is altruist or stupid.
Examples:

1. Han's interest is to keep Tibet undeveloped so that the water supply downstream is kept from diversion and pollution.
But the government built that damn railroad and give Tibetans business grants to "develop".

2. The Hans' interest is too keep the Tibetan culture and religion and lama's rule, so that Chinese can get a lot of tourist dollar from Westerners who romanticize the Tibet.

3. The Han's interest is to keep the $$$ to themselves rather than subsidizing the monks and lamas and their temples and palaces.
But the government did the opposite.

4. The government teach Tibetans Mandarin, which increased the possibility of smart Tibetans to move to Beijing Shanghai to compete for jobs.
What is the point of swapping a job, a piece of land in Beijing for a job or a piece of land in Tibet? Nonsense unless you are a altruist.

Actually China is comprised of nearly 50 distinct ethnic groups. All are heavily subsidized by the central government so that they can maintain their distinct cultural heritage. They are also encouraged (not forced) to join a more modern society. Such as in Tibet they are given grants and money by the government to start new enterprises moving away from a more primitive agrarian lifestyle.

If the Chinese were so brutal and oppressive these people would revolt. They do not. As seen in Tibet there were a very few numbers of ethnic Tibetans rioting. And of those murderous thugs caught it was found that many were paid and the fomentation of violence was directly attributed to the CIA backed Tibetan exile group.

I do not see China as totalitarian, brutal or oppressive. This is the government the vast majority of Chinese want. Yes they vote for their leaders just like many other democracies in the world. China will change and evolve in their own means and time frame. If they want help from other nations they will ask for it. It is not our right to impose again our values upon them.

Because it is totalitarian/imperialistic to impose western values and ideas of reforms on the Chinese like we have so often in history - as the ideas of freedoms and values of the Asian nations such as China is quite different from that of Western nations due to their 4000 year old cultural history.

saimneor,

You are right that western democracy can oftern correct themselves. Here is the historical fact.
Western countries have been promoting democracy around the world. It took them 150 years to abolish slavery, 200 years to give black people the right to vote. However, minority in the so-called democracy are still discriminated. If you ask the people living the Mainland how much change in freedom they experience in the last 20-30 years in comparison with what happened before, you would not be surprised by the poll done by western media in China that the Beijing government enjoys a 85% approval rating among their people. Name one western government has that kind of support. That is the reason why there is no rush in China for political change. Why are you so impatient about political and social change in other country towards the direction you want them to be while it takes your country hundred of years to be what you are today.
There are a lot of NGO in China pushing for new laws whether it is regarding human rights or environment laws. There are a lot of volunteers in China helping the poors, running orphanage etc all over China. Just go over there and experience it yourself. It is not being reported in the West at all. Don't sit and judge people from thousands of miles away. It is the privilege reserved to people like Pomfret and politicans.

To All Of You Defenders/Apologists/Whatever Of Totalitarian China,

You know, you guys spin, relate countless specious analogies with the West's many brutal, inhumane, but mostly historical acts, as compared with China's current brutal oppression of Tibet, recite your versions of the long histories of China, Tibet, and China & Tibet, but it's all static.

Tibet has been composed of a seperate and distinct people who have had a long culture in that area. They simply want to be free to live the way they choose. Why can't you leave them alone? It's not as complicated as you try at such great length to make it out to be. Frankly, while historical context is meaningful (but the sad fact is, the victors write the "history"), your overemphasis of it seems to me like a blatant Totalitarian smokescreen.

Moth

Where is the evidence of mass murder and genocide in China that you claim? Or have you been watching to many propagandized media cartoons here in the west. I have not seen any evidence of genocide or mass murder in China. And that includes the protest in Tianamen and riots in Lhasa. Neither were an attempt at mass murder or genocide by the Chinese authorities and they acted within the laws governing this fledgling democracy. Both events are minor in the number of deaths and most deaths of the perpetrators are of their own cause. The other victims were innocent bystanders or purposefully targeted groups basically murdered by the rioters themselves. The Tibetan exile group has stated numbers with no proof. When I investigate the numbers and compare them with census data they do not make sense. The pictures they post of also are easily refutable.

And given that the infrastructure improvements, education subsidies, healthcare and preservation of culture of the people in the Chinese Tibetan province are astounding. You can go to Xinhau, or just Google it for evidence. Pictures rarely lie unless doctored like CNN does.

Everyone knows the Tibetans get schooled in their native language, scholarship centers have worked to preserve texts and other cultural artifacts, buildings are maintained by the Chinese government. Monthly stipends are given to Tibetan buddhist monks. Tibetan ethnic Chinese get into Universities with a lower test score than Han's. Tibetan's get to have 3 children per couple instead of the one child policy for Han's.

Making statements like you do without any facts and support ... and you call me the child? LOL. Go back to your cocoon.

"Ronald: World politic is about power and economic and not about right or wrong. Anybody thinks otherwise, are either stupid like a fox or CIA agent in a sheep skin."

Agree. To a large extend, this is also true for democracy as we know it. Majority does not equate to right.

It is a very interesting point about why Chinese come to Canada. Due to the recent upsurge in immigrant from China and India due partly to the change in immigration policy of federal government, there was a survey done in Canada among new immigrant from mainland China, Taiwan and Hong Kong. The reasons are very diverse. However, on top of the list for people from Taiwan are fear of political instability, war and crime which has a so-called democratic system. A slap on the face of democracy proponents. On the top of the list of people from Hong Kong and Mainland China, education and ability to get into university is the top of list. Just take a look of portion of student body in most Canadian university, it will horrify white Canadians. Student from Asian is far out of porportion of their population. Just read the posts on this blog that they believe China/Chinese people is out to take over the world and it is in their character. Do you think Chinese people living in North America do know that. That is the main reason why they showed such a big support of their motherland. Asking China to grant Dalia Lama what he wants is just like asking Washington to give Hawii back to their own people, move all non-Hawii people back to the mainland, preserve Hawii culture similiar to that demanded by Dalai Lama and move the naval base back to San Diego. World politic is about power and economic and not about right or wrong. Anybody thinks otherwise, are either stupid like a fox or CIA agent in a sheep skin.

saimneor,

You said:

"..I understand how minority groups were treated in Australia. As simple as 1-2-3. First step, shoot'em up and kill every single one. Second step, wait 50 years or so. Third step, find a charming politician/actor to say on TV, I AM SORRY.

Now you tell me we should listen to an Australian reporter on how to deal with Tibetans?"

There you go again. Your historical recitation is obviously simplistic, probably shaky on the facts, and of course, disingenuous. Certainly, Australia's treatment of Aboriginal peoples was often brutal. But, what you're so conveniently ignoring, is the FACT that Western democracies have evolved over the years for the better regarding respect for human rights. The capacity for change is inherent in our DEMOCRATIC systems; we've made undeniable and meaningful progress. We have rule of law. I'm not saying we're perfect, but we've come a long way. Totalitarian China has neither legitamate rule of law, and has obviously made little, to no progress on human rights.

Your energies would be much better spent pushing for postive change within China, rather than attempting to defend the indefensible.

Zephon, how old are you? Your level of naiveté and overall immaturity SCREAMS! A few random bits of data pulled out of a college history book enable you to form holistic opinions as to the positive wonders of being a minion of Chinese oppression.

Bud, the Chinese perpetrate mass murder, genocide of the highest order,(as does the American govt.)and you somehow find a means to paint them as promoting the liberation of the Tibetan people...all those poor, ignorant slaves of His Holiness The Dalia Lama. If what China is doing to Tibet is "progress," it is far better to exist in the middle ages!

Moth

Chinese may respond to pressure well as Mr. Pomfret claims but the problem is Chinese also know that the world has given Chinese a blank check in how to handle Tibetan rebellion. Witness how the western leaders continue to emphasize to China that they consider Tibet and integral part of China when in spite of declarations by Dalai Lama, most Tibetans want independence. Let us face it - Economic considerations always trump democracy and freedom for the pompous Western leaders regardless of how much they trumpet democracy and freedom. It was the case when UK negotiated a separate deal with Tibetan government while assuring China that UK always considered Tibet a part of China in 1913. It is the case when UK sends a delegation of big diplomats to Beijing today. Having said that, cause of independence can only be sustained by Tibetans. If Tibetans truly want to keep their culture alive and flourishing, they are the ones who have to earn it with their blood against a mighty Communist China. While Buddhism abhors violence, only way for Tibetans to gain independence is through violence against a ruthless ruler, especially when that ruler in its claim over Tibet is supported by the whole world including so-called champions of freedom. Will Tibetans rise to the challenge? If they don’t, their culture and independent identity is destined to the dust bin of history, just like many before theirs.

Jealousy is the mother of all hatre who will give birth to violence and inhuman behavior. Chinese living oversea who usually do much better than local people, can testify to riot against them whether it is in North America, Europe or South East Asia. There is no political opression by the Chinese government in those places to justify that. With the full knowledge of history, government in Beijing will be ill-advised to make concession to Dalai Lama at all, not to mention to submit themselve to western pressure. If they do, there will be the end of their governement. That is how May 4 movement was borned. Tianmen square demonstration will be a minor incident comparing to what is to come. I am amazed to hear time after time, that after all the misery, they caused around the world for the last 200 years, western media still think that they have the moral justice and the power to impose a political system of theirs around the world. People of other race will not be able to enforce changes to their government without so-called western pressure. This shows the chauvinistic characters and arrogance of the so-called western media even time after time, history has shown that the blow back will be huge. Look at what is happening in Iraq by the so-called democracy by force. It is being proposed in Singapore that Asians should gather together to take care of their own business without western intervention. Economic forum will be solidified with India and China taking the lead and political forum will follow. Westerners will be left in the dust. Good luck with your opinion to give this forum another push for their rightful place in history.

Elly asked why we chinese people moving to Canada and other countries?
are you a native american, Elly?
I guess not.
I guess native american were wonder 200 years ago, why are white people moving to Canada and other places in America? Why are these white people kill a lot of our