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China Bashing: It's Back

For better or worse, it's safe to say that we're at the doorstep of a new era of China bashing in the West. The post-Tiananmen Square crackdown honeymoon where the zeitgeist was "we can all get rich together" is over. It's been replaced by China = bad guy.

Across the Western democracies - from the U.S. to Britain, France, Italy, Germany, a fear of China is rising and shows no signs of abating. A new poll by Harris, released Wednesday by the Financial Times, indicates that China has overtaken the U.S. as the biggest threat to global stability in the eyes of Europeans.

“The story of the last five years has been about economic opportunities," said Mark Leonard, executive director of the European Council on Foreign Relations and author of What Does China Think? told the FT. "The story of the last six months has been about China as a threat in Darfur and in Tibet."

That story is pretty much the same in the U.S. Last month, Gallup reported that after three years of relatively mixed views toward China, Americans have turned sharply negative against the Middle Kingdom. In that poll, China replaced North Korea (anyone remember the Axis of Evil?) as one of the top three U.S. enemies - after Iran and Iraq. And that poll was taken before Tibet was engulfed in protests and the Olympic torch relay morphed into a circus.

But it's not just in polls where you sense the shifting zeitgeist. Even a casual peruser of the editorial pages of leading American newspapers - or shows such as CNN's The Situation Room where Jack Cafferty recently described Chinese products as "junk" and called China's government "a bunch of goons and thugs" -- can figure out that it's open season on China. Same holds true in a new crop of thrillers where Chinese villains have replaced old Soviets, those feline French and wild-eyed terrorists as the rogues du jour. Check out NY Times reporter Alex Berenson's "The Ghost War" or Colin Harrison's "The Finder," both published this year. It's not quite Yellow Peril time, but ....

A few years ago, China's sizzling economy was viewed as an opportunity. Now, perhaps because we're flirting with a recession, it's a threat. In terms of a challenge from Asia, China circa 2008 is the new Japan circa 1980.

On the military side, China is the new Soviet Union. A few years ago analysts generally pooh-poohed China's modernization. "The Million Man Swim" was how one analyst described a potential Chinese attack on Taiwan. Not any longer. China's military (which has been rewarded with double-digit budget increases every year except one since 1989) can now shoot satellites out of the sky and has begun to roam the high seas.

When it comes to human rights, again, China is the new USSR.

A few years ago, the Western media enthused about how Chinese were freer than at any time in their history. Remember the stories about how the Internet was going to set China free? Or village elections? Not anymore. These days the glass is definitely half-empty. Beijing obviously hasn't helped. Its human rights policies have taken a decided turn for the worse since President Hu Jintao took power in 2001.

And on foreign policy, a few years ago, even a few months ago, Western media outlets had a load of nice things to say about China; Beijing was downright pro-American. China was aiding the U.S. in North Korea and Afghanistan; it had helped convince Sudan to accept U.N. forces. A New York Times piece in October (with the great headline: Look Who's Mr. Fixit for a Fraught Age) concluded that China had suddenly become a key to the resolution of trouble around the world.

Not anymore, even though China continues to try to play that positive role. On Tuesday, for the first time, China hosted talks on Iran's controversial nuclear program in Shanghai.

China's foreign policy has always been an often bizarre mix of pragmatism and perfidy. Months ago, we focused on the pragmatism; now it's the perfidy.

So, how do you say Boris Badenov in Chinese?

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Comments (350)

ddd:

Thanks for the article. It is funny how westerners have made China out to be this evil superpower out to rape and pillage the world when it is quite the opposite as the US and European nations have done exactly that to the rest of the world. China has finally open it's doors and people to the world with these Olympics and Americans are trying to find reasons to shut the Chinese out. I am an American and as I see it the Chinese have long been open to the western world. They have their issues but are trying to correct them. The people are among the friendliest in the world.

DC:

I know this is kind of a late response, but I'm finally up to my neck of this China-bashing: starting with food, then toys, then Supervisor Daly (showing his true color) of San Francisco's comment about "Beijing's Torch of Shame," Sharon Stone's reason why thousands of children died in the earthquake.

Now business owners are advertising their products as "NOT MADE IN CHINA." Okay, I accept that. Then I'd want to know whether it's really MADE IN THE USA, or are they just fooling us. Are all the parts "made in the US," all parts? Or do the REALLY mean "assembled" in the US? That's a HUGE difference.

So, what is it they're doing? Capitalizing on the China-bashing current and still benefit from purchasing cheaper components MADE in China, and use our ignorance? They are apparently doing it with great success.

jian:

The underlying basic fact is: The west fears that China will do to the west what the west has done to the world. In other words: The west is fearing its own evil in China since the west can not believe that its own evil is not universal. Pitiful.

"The little man's guess of the great man's intention" (a Chinese proverb), this is what is going on with the west.

Conrad:

I think the point is: Chinese don't have the right to "express" certain opinions, or organize freely to advocate certain opinions. This is no small thing that you dismiss so freely Oohkuchi.

And, maybe the experience of colonialism, and the incredible ethnic and linguistic diversity within India, have something to do with its slower rate of growth? Lots of possible variables to explain the outcome of high growth; you steamroll all of them to serve your argument.

oohkuchi:

"Your system of government prevents the Chinese people from aspiring to the greatness they are capable of" --what rubbish. Been to democratic India, Amazing? Seen their greatness? If you had to choose between living as an average Joe in an Indian or a Chinese town, you, like all the other CCP haters, would choose China, where you can be assured of 24-hour power, broadband, cellphone coverage, water, transport, basic services and a roof over your head. Most Chinese have that, and a lot of Indian don't. Know why, Amazing? It's partly because China has a strong, determined and effective government. As for all that other patronizing crap about poor benighted Chinese not having the right to opinions, well, that doesn't deserve a response.

N^2:

Papertiger, nice summary of the western system of int politics and basically the discussions going on below =)

Moral Paper Tiger:

In my comment below, I accidentally quoted comments of others. My own comment should end with the line "(The End)".

My apology.

Moral Paper Tiger:

Would like to share a dialogue I put up a short while ago elsewhere:


A Gangster-turned-Christian apparently is trying to convert another Gangster, here is their dialogue:

Christian: You gangster is doing all bad things no good! You got to convert in order to save your soul.

Gangster: What you are saying about me isn’t entirely true. More truth will come out.

Christian: The whole world believes what I say.

Gangster: That’s because you control the world. However, even if what you are saying about me is true, you still can't preach to me like this.

Christian: Why not?

Gangster: You were worse regarding what you did to that red Indian girl and that black African boy. You were a white colonist and a slave owner.

Christian: That doesn’t count. It was only in the past.

Gangster: But the descendants of that red Indian girl are still going out to protest on your birthday -- every July 4th.

Christain: Precisely! They are free to protest! Freedom! Democracy! Do you have those!? Do you! Do you!

Gangster: You seem very forgetful, self-forgiving and self-congraduating. Well, you are still doing the same, see what you are doing to that Iraqi girl. You are an invader and a war profiteer.

Christian: That is different. It isn’t about me, it is about you, you!

Gangster: That seems very indifferent of you.

Christian: No! I am full of passion, My heart aches when I think of that poor Tibetan boy! I hate any injustice! It is my duty to do justice to this world!

Gangster: But that Hindi guy took Miss Sikk Kim too…

Christian: You shut up, I don’t know who Miss Kim is, the Tibetan boy aches my heart whenever I think of him! Behides, that Hindi guy is basically a good man but you are such a bad person!

Gangster: What!?... Why?!

Christian: Because that Hindi guy is a democrasy and you are not. Democrasy is good. No democrasy no good, period!

Gangster: All democrasies must be good?

Christian: Yes.

Gangster: Tell me why…

Christian: Because they are like me.

Gangster: Man… I am almost wordless. So far, I must say that you are unreasonably self-centered and self-righteous.

Christian: Shut up! I know the Truth, God speaks to me! You don’t do what I say, I am going to boycott your f**king Olympics!

Gangster: ……Wait a minute……Gosh! Be respectful to yourself! The Olympics is yours! It is your tradition, I am hosting it for you to spread your culture. YOUR culture!

Christian: Mine is universal! Serving my universals is your honor! Failing it is your shame!

Gangster: So if a westerner hosting a Chinese New Year Parade, for whatever reason a Chinese guy doesn't like that westerner and goes up to him and pulls his pants off in public, you think it is the westerner's shame?!

Christian: Yes, because he is embarrassed!

Gangster: It is the westerner's emmbarrassment, but it is the Chinese guy's shame! For sure, that poor westerner is not going to do the Chinese New Year Prade again. Whose loss is it?! Making the Olympics Ugly, yes, my emmbarrassement, yet your shame! Don't you get that?!

Christian: It is your shame! your shame! I insist!

Gangster: Only un-cultured, confused, rude people would think and act that way. You seem very arrogant too. I used to worry how I could catch your guys up, but if this is the character and quality of your men, I am no more worried. Your men are no match of my men! You are no match of me!

Christian: Shut up! You are just such a bad person. And you are stubborn!

Gangster: You are a hypocrite!

Christian: I condemn you!

Gangster (angrily): I contempt you!

Christian: The contempt is mutual!

Gangster: Let it be!

(A moment of silence)

Gangster: Maybe I don’t need that stupid Olympics any more. I am going to cancell it. You will see whose loss it is.

Christian: Wait! You can’t do that either.

Gangster: … … How come? Don’t you want to stop it anyway?

Christian: I still need it to make money in you!

Gangster: Money!? I thought your concern was the Tibetan boy…

Christian: Yes, I still love that poor boy, my heart aches whenever I think of that poor boy, but we can talk about him some other time. It is about me this time.

Gangster: But… but…earlier you just said that it is all about me! The bad person…me?

Christian: It is about me now.

Gangster: So confussing… When will it be about me again?

Christian: I will remind you when I need you the bad person again.

Gangster: You are such a Moral Paper Tiger !

(The End)


Posted By: MoralPaperTiger | April 12 2008 at 07:16 PM

If USA and the colonial Europeans have obiously succeeeded in they ethnical cleansing and wealth robbing, killings around the world in the past, now the citizens in the west are all enjoying the fruits of all these brutal acts, why d you think China shouldn't follow their example and be another winner?


Posted By: MichaelJF | April 13 2008 at 09:38 PM

"Chinese Communist Party is a fascist claque that rules through violence, torture, murder and repression. May the many peoples imprisoned in the vast forced labor camp that is the People's Republic of China arise en masse and overthrow their oppressive overlords. Solidarity with the Tibetan people's brave struggle for independence!

Posted By: Vladimir1917 | March 28 2008 at 09:52 AM"

This is so typical of Tibet independence posters' style: make baseless claims such as torture, murder, repression, culture genocide, violent crack down, etc. without citing facts to back up their claims.

When presented with facts contrary to their claims, they do not present counter fact but make more claims and name calling: you are brain washed, commy spies,

protibet:

Western public opinion towards China turned negative after the march Lhasa riot, thanks to the western mass media's distorted and misleading coverage. The criminals who committed murder and arson have been cheered as "peaceful protesters", and "brutal crackdown" is the most used phrase to refer to the law enforcement trying to protect the innocent victims. Even after the eye-witness accounts and western tourists' videos eventually surfaced on the Internet to reveal the truth, the media continue to mislead their audiences. One CNN article goes “the Chinese government compensated $$$ to 18 victims died during the March violent protests in Lhasa” without clarifying that they were actually killed by the “peaceful protesters”. Someone who read CNN’s previous “brutal crackdown” story would most likely think those victims were killed by the government.

As to the “nationalism” or “patriotism” (depending on your perspective) sentiments in China after the riot, I have a frame of reference --- NYC after 911. Indian with their traditional headpiece were beaten because they look like someone from Mideast. I remember an Indian colleague of mine has to wear a T-shirt with something like “I am Indian”. Holding a placard with pro-Palestine or pro-Islam human rights slogans in NYC back then is probably suicidal. Yet the western Tibetan separatists, with the help of popular media, keep rubbing salt in fresh wound during the Olympic Torch relay, totally ignore the pain real Tibetans suffered from these terrorists who intruded their peaceful everyday life.

protibet:


Since Dalai Lama has been chosen by the West as the de facto crusader for a “free-Tibet” and the designated representative of all Tibetans (in fact he can not and does not represent all the Tibetans in China), I’d like to raise your awareness of HHDL’s human rights’ violation.
Since 1990s, Dalai and his “government-in-exile” has brutally oppress the believers of Dorje Shugden (another Tibetan Buddhism branch with hundreds years of history). You can search in YouTube for this subject.

So what do you expect from a theocratic dictator?

Jane:

Adam Smith’s “invisible hand” is the theological base for the modern day capitalism. How can the west deny the Chinese rights to pursue their own self-interest, which capitalists so adore? The Chinese were bashed for trying to build a heavenly state called communism where people give themselves up for the common good. Now they are being bashed for wanting what’s best for themselves. How many times have I heard Mr. Bush emphasizes “protecting American interest around the world”? Maybe 1000. Oh, please, the powerful America, the land of peace, justice and freedom, the leader and the role model of the world, give us some guidance and examples of how to put other’s interest in front of our own. Is it the Iraq invasion, the building of southern border, the unsigned Kyoto accord, the support of Israel’s oppression of Palestinians, or the shooting death of unarmed black man? Yes, maybe it’s the glorious jabs and punches between the political opponents. The Chinese will look up to you. Freedom of speech is awesome! Yes, the Tibetans are entitled to protest. The Chinese are entitled to counter-protest. I think they have the ability and the right to decide what's best for their country.

I'm a Chinese American who love America, even more so in the Clinton years. I love the people around me, especially when we are not talking about religion or politics. I hope our country and countrymen make better choices to make America a place truly for the world to envy. I also want America to be a better place to live for my kids who are American Born Chinese. I don’t want them to feel the same kind of discrimination that I feel sometimes. Without respecting the differences between each of us, the difference between countries and cultures, life will be harder for everyone.

justsomelaowai:

America seems to function better when it has an "enemy". First it was the USSR, then Japan, now China and the Muslims...why do people get so worked up over Tibet and not Myanmar? I even had one customer at my photo shop tell me "It's too bad Truman made Macarthur stop at the Yalu River!" (For those who don't know, during the Korean War, General Douglas MacArthur supposedly wanted to cross the Yalu River into China and re-install Chiang Kai-shek in Beijing before he was fired by President Truman for insubordination).

Personally, as an American, I am tired of my fellow Americans' paranoia and belief that bullying, intimidation and military force will solve everything. Any time another country acts in its own interests (as we do) then they need to be "corrected" like little children, in the view of many of my fellow Americans. I am sick of it, sick of the hypocrisy and self-righteousness. I am also sick of the ignorant Americans who call the Chinese "brainwashed". Here in Los Angeles, I know MANY mainland Chinese. Not a single one uncritically believes what the Chinese news media says. They get most of their news from Hong Kong, Taiwan, the west and other sources. They know that much of the CCP news is self-serving junk. How many Americans get their news from anywhere except CBS and CNN?

Roland Wei:

to San Souri
we did learn a lot from western. yes we did so we develp every fast. we grow up fast, too fast than lots of people imagining.
we didnt learn every thing from western because we knew there are lots of thing we didnt need. we learn what helpful to us.
talked about Nationalism, i can feel your unrespect and misunderstanding of this Chinese protest against
1. goverment supported cleavage(especially Paris,capital of France),
2. western media filtered reports and humiliation.

we stand up and start to speak this time, in our way and non-violent, suddently all of you cant understand,why and what happened? and most of you thought China Government must did sth and drove us to do so, even some reporter or so called analist shout out of "beain washed!" :)how regretful and funny that most of you think in this totally wrong way.even government had not done anything this time.
i think it's the first time you hear voice from Chinese ourselves.so loud, isnt it?

and again, western help Chinese to unite social cohesion. and enforce us to clear what position we are in your eyes and minds, and encourage us to develop ourselves more and faster. protest can't help in making China strong, we show our attitude and we still keep working and improve our country keeping developing

in this protest, the main part of the people is White-collar.highly educated and highly paid. the most part of Chinese who access western ideas alot.we learn and practic. keep the wrong ones out and let the right ones in. but there are something wont change, for example,patriotism,i think you wont change your patriotism too.

there are always some small group people will betray, i still remeber when you american enter Afghanistan, US army had caught lots of american there, they fight again american, and believe in Allah.what did you call them?where is your patriotism at the moment?

we wont hate tibet just because that small group roits. but i can feel, western media mis-leading the people thinking that we will,,,

China is growing, tibet is growing, and most Chinese are nice and friendly (there are always some bad guys in any country).

hope you can come to china.

by the way i recently noticed that US are discussing about children protection. i feel so sad that people wont dare to watch children playing for a long time for others might consider he is danger to the children...stm it;s just for fun, and help picking up memories of childhood. it;s nessesary to protect children.but why some people want to hurt them? what's wrong?is it natural? bad natural? can it be controled? how to?need to learn more...

Namjagbarwa, From Eastern Tibet :

I'll use the name of my hometown's pride as my user ID here,---Mt. Namjarbarwa.

My English is not good so pls pardon me if you see any typo and mistake.

I am from Nyingchi Region, Eastern Tibet. 70% of my beloved homeland are under Indian military occupation. All Thanks to the British support in 1962. But that's another story.

During the past month, I've witnessed alot protests here in U.S. and been told about riots back at my homeland. I think it's my duty to clear on some FACTS that are obviously and selectively omitted by the media and protesters.

1. His Holyness the Dalai Lama DOES NOT represent Tibet. Our Tibetan Buddhism has 4 schools:Gelug, Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu. HH the Dalai Lama is ONE of the TWO most respected living budda of Gelug(Yellow Hat Sect), another one is Panchen Lama. HH the Dalai Lama can only represent farmers and town living Tibetans from North Central Tibet(Centered with City of Lhasa), which is about 20% of entire Tibetan population at the most. Entire South Central Tibet(Centered with City of Xigaze) worship Panchen Lama only, as well as we who are from Eastern Tibet only believe NyingMa Sect, the Red Hat.

2. Example: If the President of Confederacy, Jefferson Davis, fled to Europe after the Civil War was lost. Can he represent all Americans? I don't think so. He IS qualified to represent all the slave masters though.

3. Since 1980, We Tibetans have not paid ONE cent of Tax to the central government. We Tibetans have NOT paid ONE cent on fertilizer and seed. We have promotion access to housing, education, birth, employment and all kinds of other social benefits. The name of this promotion policy is called the Affirmative Act in the United States. I don't know what it's called in Tibet and honestly I didn't really care. It's been there since I was born. When I realized that policy only applies to minority groups in China, I am already 13. I got 10 points raise on my average score when I graduated from elementary school. And I know my brother got 20 points when he graduated from high school. There are 10 Million high school graduates competing to get into college every year. Can you imagine how many advantages this 20 point can make?? BTW, I have 3 brothers and 2 sisters, and there goes so-called "Forced Birth Control amoung Tibetans".

4. Just like 95% of other Tibetans, my family was farmer-slaves before 1959. We've always been slaves till HH the Dalai Lama and his slavery government escapted from Tibet, along with most slave masters. Though the Chinese Army already stationed in Tibet in 1950, the reform, the abandon of slavery system was not carried out by central government. One story is that in 1954, Chinese Army was hiring in my village to help them building concrete roads. After they found out that their payments to the villagers are all robbed by slave masters, they were angry and started paying merchandise and goods directlym, just to make sure the masters can't take them away. That was 4 years after People's Liberation Army entered Tibet.

5. I am kinda tired telling these stories now. I don't know why the world outside Tibet had so many misleadings and understanding to our homeland. I really appreciate that you said you were speaking for Tibetans. But there are 3 million Tibetans living in Tibet now and you are only listening to those around HH the Dalai Lama??? Our living conditions are much bettern than those in exile and much much better than 50 years ago. and none of these was the effort of exile Tibetan government,ZERO. We earned it by our sweat drops and promotion policies from central government. Not a living budda who was randomly picked by HH. And we want our life to be better and better. Talking about moral standards and religion freedom, we Red Hat Sect can practice all traditional customs everyday. I don't know what happened to Yellow Hat and I don't understand why they seem like the only trouled ones in Tibet and mostly I don't see how can HH the Dalai Lama become the Representive of Tibet?!

Long live Tibet, Long live Peace, Long live China.

San Soucri:

The United States, Britain, France, ECT all face daily doses of criticism, both from within their communities and abroad.

The current Chinese response to protests over the actions in Tibet is to circle the wagons and thump chests (Nationalism)This is not becoming of a nation wanting to be an influential player in global discourse.

Whether it is growing pains or pure denial of its new found role, China needs to grow up some.

Yes your ego can be hurt when criticized, but in the end if you listen to those critiquing so you have the opportunity to better yourself.

BRAMBLES:

@ Hypocrisy Rule:

^_^ My friend, I m glad you now know what I was saying.
So, why do I deserve this name as a Hypocrite? Your point being?

About the US-Indian argument?

Let me add the context to my point a bit, you'll see:

The Tibetans have grievances because they are increasingly marginalized economically with Hans pouring into Tibet, taking a lion share of the economic growth. That's the real issue. Besides economical concerns, Tibetans probably are worried that with so many (more) Han people around, their distinctive cultural and regious heritage would be diluted. That's the real Tibetan grievance.
Do you deny that American Indians are now in the same way maginalized? I m using the "US - American Indian argument" in the exactly same meaning.

What else can you read from the "marginalized" ?

NOW, how am I a "hypocrite"? Show me some logic and maybe I will be convinced.
And again, your point being?

As for the cause of Tibetan grievances, suppressed RIGHTS to independence? and "CHINESE OPPRESSION"? Give me a break.
First, Tibet is and has been long a part of China. No ignoring of history, intentional or not, is ever gonna change that. Second, Tibetans enjoy far better treatment, and far more rights under the Chinese law/policies than I do. Do a google search please. You DONT trust what I say anyway.

If you wanna know anything about Tibet, come to China and see for yourself. Enough said.
I cant believe I m staying up late for this.

Roland Wei:

:) look at the both side
quote a pop word from internet to comments the article: "so Muddled so Naive"

am sure you know what Dalai Lama want, but you dont know what he need indeed, some how, i dont know.

we had learned from school when i was young that dont look at the interface of the issue,think more angle and look deeper. i think very chinese had been told about this in high school. so we learned to compare,many sides of the same story.

i knew what he had done in the old days. i dont want to evilize him, i know he wont do that any more, for many reasons.

i had been to Tiebet, just before the Riots,there were peace.people there is nice.

hope you can find your way to Tibet, then you needn't quote from others or articles.

i think there must be some people will complain, maybe some one will claim government had killed their parents during the 1959 riots. had your country ever had civil war?

if you want to say, in 1959 or 1949 it was not civil war, well...,you need to learn more history of china, not only begin with 1949, not only begin with 1900,not only begin with 1860, the day westen open the sealed door to China, learn more from earlier ages, how about 1000 AD? would you pls have a try?

can't ask you to learn any more earlier, in the matter of fact, not lots people can learn all the history of any country, even their own country but at least they can learn some key point, key facts from ancient time.

Budda is good, i like Zen. learn alots from it.
just like Chris in west.

at least, as a fact i can see, there are many "angry youth" in west too.

it's passion, passion of your life, your angle, your best wishes, it's grateful indeed for sharing your wishes.

it is, truelly my friends.

no need to argue more about it, as we know, people in this world, no one is the same, so is the thinking. we can't make the whole world at one standards.
free the mind then you will be free.

no culture can be distoried by others, only culture itself can.

thanks again.

Roland Wei

wu wei:

DJ,

Thanks for the websites. I went to dalai lama .com and checked out the Five Point Peace Plan, but did not see advocated anywhere the removal of all non-Tibetans from Tibet. That would be totally unworkable. What I did see is the demand that the mass immigration by non-Tibetans into Tibet be halted. That is still one of the Dalai Lama's demands today, although in recent years he's used words like "slowed" instead of "stopped altogether." I think that's something that could be worked out in negotiations, particularly regarding Chinese who are moving to Tibet to help develop it. Also, while the Five Point Peace Plan does state as one of its conditions the removal of Chinese military forces from Tibet, that condition was dropped a while back. Indeed, the Five Point Peace Plan was first announced in 1987, and many of the conditions it contained have been modified or discarded outright. That freelibrary .com report on the current state of autonomy negotiations is much more up to date, and gives a better sense of what the Dalai Lama is willing to compromise on. The more recent speeches and positions on dalailama .com are also pretty good indicators.

The question of the geographic and political boundaries of Tibet and China would undoubtedly be a sticky topic in negotiations, but I don't think that's a good reason to not make any efforts at all. I suspect that if the surrounding provinces in question were offered true guarantees of cultural and religious freedom, the Tibetan Government in Exile would consider supporting a settlement that left them out of a revamped TAR. Of course, maybe they wouldn't; I'm just speculating. But I don't think either the Chinese gov or Tibetan leadership have anything to lose by making a good-faith effort to try. The difficult part for the Chinese leadership would be casting any new negotiations in such a way as to not make them appear as caving in to the dangerous behavior of the 3.14 rioters. That would be tricky, but it seems to me that it might be possible if the Chinese government 1.) unapologetically throws the full weight of the law at those protesters who turned to looting, killing, destroying property, etc. while 2.) at some point after things have cooled down a little bit, possibly as we get closer to the Games, facilitates some discussion among Chinese about the Tibet issue, possibly through the state-run media. I know that isn't the CCP's style, but I think on this issue it could be very useful. (One question I've been meaning to ask: how much was the Tibet issue really discussed in China before the 3.14 riots? Do many Chinese people give it much attention during less heated times?)

By facilitating a discussion, China's leadership could better gauge how much leeway the public would give them in dealing with Tibet (and maybe even make the case for more leeway), and possibly make negotiations a little more acceptable than they currently are to the general Chinese public. Of course, for such an approach to have any chance, the Chinese media needs to stop demonizing the Dalai Lama and Tibetan issues generally, and draw a distinction between those who are separatists and those who want to change some aspects of the China-Tibet relationship to benefit Tibetans. Again, I know this isn't how the CCP likes to handle these issues, and the odds against them embracing such an approach are high. But does anyone else have a better idea?

I haven't yet had time to read the Atlantic article you mentioned, but I have tracked it down and have it open on my computer. It looks good; I'll be sure to read it after work today. Thanks again.

Hypocrisy Rule:

Bramble, Bramble...oops! Hypocrisy R U

This is your post on 'Our Tibet Protests Won't Work" by Fareed Zakaria @>Posted April 15, 2008 12:09 AM

>I dont deny there's true grievance among Tibetans. But for what reason? Are you outraged that >American Indians are marginalized on the own land in the U.S.?


@ Hypocrisy Rule:

>>The British occupied Hong Kong over 100 years, The Japanese was in Taiwan. Do you think they have the right of ownership by occupancy? Why not? Don’t bring out that US took the land away from the Indian argument, please. (END OF QUOTE)

My friend, I used to be such a liberal. I cant say I m now. I've been back to this country for nearly 7 years and I know better now. I suppose China is your country too?

Did I ever say that? When did I use the "US - American Indians" argument? I dont do that.

Here comes my only suggestion: READ CLEARLY WHAT I SAID. If you still dont understand, read again before you call someone hypocrite.

DJ:

Wu Wei,

I highly recommend that you take a look at an article by Peter Hessler published in the Atlantic Monthly in 1999. The title is "Tibet Through Chinese Eyes."

His observation conforms well with what I know of the Chinese government policy as well as the views and perspectives of the general han-Chinese population.

DJ:

Wu Wei,

Thanks for the explanation. I tried a couple of times before and after the question of mine to the moderator showed up. I was quite puzzled.

Anyway, please go to dalailama dot com to find exact details of what DL wants. It's in a link titled Five Point Peace Plan.

The key points are:

1. All non-Tibetans should be cleansed out of Tibet and surrounding provinces.

2. All Chinese military forces and facilities must be withdrawn out the same area as well.

3. And afterwards, serious negotiation of a meaningful autonomy can start.

Please note when he says "Tibet", he is referring to Tibet as known today and other surrounding provinces that were under Tibetan influence at some historical points. Many millions of han, hui, and other races of Chinese residents have called these places home for a very long history. It accounts for 1/3 (? need reference) of China's land.

BTW, do you know that Tibet forces reached the capital of China at one point.

If these conditions are the basis for autonomy, I surly am not surprised that he is not calling for independence.

wu wei:

To the guy who’s discussing Tibet with me (a name would help),

I’m sorry to hear you say that you don’t care about a group of people living in your country. I hope that your government and other Chinese do. I understand that you feel strongly about the rioting, looting, burning, and killing that took place on 3.14, and rightfully so. However, if we’re going to have a meaningful discussion on Tibet, we have to distinguish between the rioters that day and the larger issue of Tibet and China’s policies towards it. The fact that political violence occurred in Tibet on 3.14 is no reason to just say, “I don’t give a fk about what happens to those people,” and walk away from it. If we want a better world and a better China, we have to step up and engage that issue (and others) in a meaningful way and make a real effort at listening to each other. I’m here because I want to do that, and I hope you are too. If so, let’s get to work. For starters: do you think there are any grievances the Tibetan people hold against the Chinese government that are legitimate? If so, what are they, and how do you propose we think and deal with them? If not, why not?


To DJ,

Did the post you submitted that didn’t go up have a link in it? If so, your post got sent to the moderator’s folder/holding tank, as they check out the links before allowing such posts to go up. Apparently, some legitimate links are considered spam by the moderator’s computer system, so they may not put it up, or it might take awhile. This is what happened to me earlier. If possible, get around it by submitting your post with verbal directions to the website instead of a direct link. Hope this helps.

BRAMLBES:

@ HYPOCRACY RULES:

Nothing more needs to be said. You 'argument' has already proved your point. What else can you do beside calling names?

Wei:

@ BRAMBLES & Your friend

The question now seems to be: Is western media less biased than the Chinese media?
First, as I said before, I don’t really have a big problem with the media bias itself. What I have problem with is the hypocrisy. When someone lectures others to follow rules he can’t follow himself, don’t u just hate that person?
Secondly, this actually is what I was saying about “brain wash”. The Chinese media sometimes is so brazenly biased, it is very difficult for anyone to miss that. On the other side, the Western media is good at hiding its agenda and promotes its causes subtly. Average Joes don’t always discern the bias in it. Won’t a con artist have a harder time finding a victim, if everyone knows he is a crook? Chinese people can tell the crook in their country easily, but is it the same case here?
Finally, as for the question itself, my answer is Yes. In my opinion for all its faults, western media is still less biased than the Chinese media. Many Chinese think this way as well. Obviously so do you. But can we be sure we are right? If u have a poll among the Arabians and the Americans about which is more biased, CNN or al Jazeera, I am pretty sure the results will be squarely opposite. Can you justifiably tell me the opinions of the Arabians don’t count? Closer to home, if one asks me which one is more fair and balanced, Fox News or New York Times? My answers will be NY Times. Since u come to Washington Post, I assume u will have the same opinion as mine. So do many liberals. But obviously tens of millions of people in this country disagree with us, making Fox News the No. 1 news channel in the country. Can u really prove to me those loyal FNC supporters are wrong? U see, the problem is that Journalism is NOT a science. So it is impossible to really make any conclusion based on universal laws. We make our judgments based on our emotion and our value systems. So it is inherently biased. When two people may not even be able to agree on what bias is in Journalism, it is really pointless to quantify it.
With regard to nationalism's influence on media bias, I don't share your worry. Is it a cause of media bias? Of course and it can be a huge threat. But it was not the main cause during the cold war. And I seriously doubt it is the No 1 cause of the Chinese media bias. That bias is mainly caused by the CCP’s ideology, although it becomes harder and harder to define what exactly that ideology is. I guess it is a monster fathered by communism, but with many notable step dads: feudalism, materialism, nationalism, Darwinism, and even capitalism, which becomes more and more influential every day.
I agree mostly with Pomfret's latest blog about Chinese nationalism. Nationalism, especially modern nationalism just never had a place in Chinese culture through its history. That's why Manchurians could rule China for so long and when it died, some prominent Han Chinese would be so lost some even committed suicides. But this will be the topic of another discussion.

DJ:

To Mr. Pomfret or the moderator,

Where did my answer a couple hours ago to Wu Wei's question on Dalai Lama's demands go? Did you block it? If so, could you let me know what rule I broke? Thanks.

LOL:

@ IF CHINA IS GOOD:

Using your "logic", if US is a good country it shouldn't have the biggest military in the world. If you are a good person you shouldn't need a door in your house.

Eat more vitamin C to save your brain.

if china is good:


IF CHINA IS A GOOD AND NORMAL NATION LIKE ALL OTHERS THEN:

The Olympic-2008 torch never needed to be escorded by a bunch of under-covered secret agents, spies, polices as seen in all nations that had Olympic torch running in other nations and never faced world protests as seen with China!

No Fire then there will be no Smoke! China must has severe problems with the world and therefore, the world boycott and protest China and is is logical as 1+1=2

IF CHINA IS GOOD AND NORMAL NATION LIKE ALL OTHERS THEN:

World citizens will never waste their time and effords to condemn China because it has no reason!

SO:

CHINA IS DEFINITELY A VERY BAD OR WORST AND DANGEROUS, ANTI-SOCIAL, ANTI-BUSINESS, ANTI-STABILITY, ANTI-PROGRESS, ETC. NATION THAT THE WORLD MUST BOYCOTT IN ALL CONCEIVABLE ASPECTS:
FROM STOP DOING BUSINESS WITH CHINA! STOP SELLING ANYTHING TO CHINA! STOP IMPORTING ANYTHING MADE IN CHINA! STOP COMING TO CHINA FOR ANY REASON!
STOP LET CHNA SEND ITS SPIES, TROUBLE-MAKERS, THIEVES IN THE FORMS OF BUSINESS PERSONS, STUDENTS, RESEARCHER, INDUSTRALIST, TECHNOLOGISTS, VISITORS, TOURISTS, ETC, TO NAME A FEW

LOL:

I saw some really stupid post here talking about Chinese genocide in Tibet. Give me a break! Please don't mistake China as Israel. And please don't mistake Tibet as Palestine. If you have no better things to do, eat more vitamin C to save your over oxidized brain.

Hypocrisy Rule:

BRAMBLES:

I have to give you some credit on that you do possess critical thinking capabilities and obviously your eruditely knowledge helps you presents a milder reasoning than you’re rudimentary comrades been barking here, I am encouraged that some of you do seems to try to improve on your reasoning. But like it or not, Hypocrisy don’t just exhibit it self in specific words said or not, It seeps through everything, you can’t hide its stench no matter how many flowers you dress on top of it. Its blazon arrival is often unnoticed by its presenter.
As some of the blog here has stated, communist debating techniques are distinctive and pungent. And Sir, you are full of it. Like garlic, you might not be eating it now but if you eat it all your life, its odors stays in you.

Some of your writing are listed here:

'But INDEPENDENCE? Absolutely not.
Chinese people's apparently natural antagonization toward separation/split of the nation.
As for the talk of the mineral below Tibet and Taiwan's strategic geo importance, well realpolitk does make sense.'

And to all other Communist Pundits and my Chinese brothers:

Stop embarrassing yourself and maybe learn more from BRAMBLES, he seem to have far more superior facilities to foster a good debate than most of you.

To wu wei: :

@wu wei:

i dont care if they're not happy, i m not happy either, heck none of my homies happy, there's always something buging u in ur life, ur boss, ur woman, the sick fk living the next door, but what we do? we deal with it in a lawful way.

so these tibetans are not happy about things, and they went on streets beating and burning and looting and killing, and they waved their flags demanding seperation from the country. I say they need to be put down(to answer ur question, whoever waves that snowlion flag, has forfeited their rights to be chinese citizen, you d@mn right we should put them back to their places). I dont care if religion is one of the things bugging them, religious ppl do not have more lawful rights than non-religous people.

and i dont give a fk what dalai lama says, all "religious celebs" are crooks, these two words are oxymoron. dalai can fool u because u westerners just sk up to those meditation sh/t, but we've seen too many of them.

DJ:

Wu Wei

Please go to http://dalailama.com/page.121.htm to see the details of what DL wants.

The key points are copied and pasted below (i.e. all the quoted text are his own words):

"The establishment of a peace zone in Tibet would require withdrawal of Chinese troops and military installations from the country".

"For the Tibetans to survive as a people, it is imperative that the population transfer is stopped and Chinese settlers return to China".

And only then, "negotiations on the future status of Tibet and the relationship between the Tibetan and Chinese peoples should be started in earnest".

Please note when he says "Tibet", he is referring to a greater Tibet concept that includes other surrounding provinces of XiZhang that were under Tibetan influence at some historical point. In other words, his claim of Tibet accounts for 1/3 of China's land and include many millions of han, hui, and other races of Chinese residents that have called these places home for centuries.

So in summary, DL is demanding that all non native Tibetans residents to be cleansed out their homes for generations in a vast region far beyond what Tibet is today. He is demanding all Chinese military to be withdrawn. And then he is ready to sit down and talk about meaningful "autonomy" arrangement.

And all we hear from the western media is that DL is a reasonable and peaceful man who is not seeking independence yet always denied a chance of talking by the evil Chinese government.

wu wei:

To west and western,

Your rhetoric regarding the Tibet situation appears to contradict what most of the other Chinese people (if I'm wrong, guys, please correct me) here have been trying to establish to us Westerners; namely, that you regard Tibetans as being equally Chinese under the law, that you are equal members of a harmonious society, and that the Chinese government's policies in Tibet are intended for the mutual benefit of both Chinese and Tibetans. Indeed, it seems you are saying that if push comes to shove, Tibetans aren't really Chinese after all, and it's better if the Chinese come out on top. This only encourages the view of Westerners (whether it is correct or not) that Tibet is in fact not a part of China and that China only cares about it in relation to its "vital national interests," which sounds a lot like imperialistic language. Is this really your view?

We aren't demanding that you "give up" Tibet. And I'm not sure if you heard, but the Dalai Lama appeared on television in the wake of the 3.14 riots and threatened to resign if such violence by Tibetans continued. I'm not sure about his dealings with the TYC, but for the sake of fairness, give the man some credit!

What we are asking, in general terms, is that the Chinese government take the true interests of the Tibetan people into account in their dealings with them, and to let those interests shape their policies. So far, the government's efforts on this front have been inadequate. Is it really too much to ask of a government to conduct itself in a way that is most beneficial to its people? Isn't that the aim of any legitimate government in the first place?

To West and Western... :


Politicians, Lobbists, Pundits, Tree Huggers, Chicken-hawks ...

I thank you for your concern over the human rights situation in Tibet as one part of China. However after seeing how Chinese side has been treated from your MSM, we have come to a conclusion that both sides have reached the end of the dicussion. It's painful in the short term but helpful in the long term to have our romantic feelings and views towards the West crashed by your medias in the past month, I have to thank you for that too.

So at this point there's really not much to talk about, the only thing I can say is that China has vital national interests in Tibet, that 1.3 billion Chinese will never give it up, it has absolutely nothing to do with ideologcial frames, sorry.

And we dont think Dalai Lama can be trusted before he segregate himself with TYC and denounce 3.14 rioters in public. I know it'd be hard for him do that, sorry.

I acknowledge there are problems in Tibet, if things can work out under OUR terms, good for everybody, if not, too bad. If the world claims we are cracking down on them harshly then we will crack down on them harshly and never look back. If somebody has to give, it's better them than us, 1.3 billon ppl's interests > 6 million ppl's interests, sorry.

So if you want to come for the olympic thing, you will be welcome as dear friends. If you want to boycott and continue to protest, be as it may. We cant afford to care one way or the other, sorry.

peace out,

AmerikanGoon:

@Alan Browne,

"Fact: China is patiently committing genocide in Tibet through military, government, economic and media control. It may take 50 or 100 years to achieve."

yeah right, chinese genocide is the reason the population of Tibetans increases from 1 million to 6 million over the past 50 years. wow, what a brutal genocide.

I will tell what's a genocide, Native Americans once had the whole fking north america continent to themself, now they're less than all the pandas in china, that's what g-e-n-o-c-i-d-e means you dumb truck.

Alan Browne:


Will the China apologists atop their long winded defenses?

Fact: China is patiently committing genocide in Tibet through military, government, economic and media control. It may take 50 or 100 years to achieve, but to patient China this is just one more program of control over people's minds and spirits.

BOYCOTT Chinese goods.

BOYCOTT The Beijing 2008 Olympics.

BOYCOTT Beijing 2008 Olympic sponsors (Coca-Cola, Adidas, McDonalds, Staples, Johnson & Johnson, UPS, and many others...)

wu wei:

With regard to the issue of media bias, it's clear that the Western media can and does present things in a biased manner, and when it comes to international affairs this bias often reflects the Western democratic point of view. That is unsurprising, and frankly I'm not very concerned about it; we all seem to acknowledge that there will be some bias intrinsic in any account of a given event. We shouldn't feel because of this that there is no truth and hence all points of view have either equal validity or no validity--that depends on a given source’s journalistic integrity, and I believe the Western media does best Chinese state-run media in this regard. Rather, we should use an understanding of a given source's bias to place it in a social context in order to better understand the main population to which it addresses itself. However, having an identifiable bias is different from issuing false reports or flagrantly ignoring inconvenient facts. That is what the public must watch out for, and the only way to do that is seek out multiple news sources on a regular basis and to challenge one's assumptions.

I'm sorry that so many Chinese were let down by one-sided reporting they witnessed in the Western media recently; if it means anything, many of us have been let down by our media in the past as well. In particular, the free ride that the U.S. media gave the Bush administration in the run-up to the senseless Iraq war in 2002-03 really did us a giant disservice. You can imagine how frustrating it was watching that happen. During that time, I was getting a lot of my news from various European sources, as well as several different U.S. papers across the political spectrum, because it was clear that that was the only way to get a good picture of what was really going on. With a few exceptions (I think the Economist is about as reliable a news source as one can be, and it clearly states its bias), there isn't any one news source you can turn to in order to get the whole scoop. So if any of you feel that your regular western news outlets let you down this time around, don't totally discard them, but find some new ones to supplement your news diet. That way, you can keep a finger on the West's pulse, while also finding some new news sources that give you a more complete picture. The challenge for us isn’t just to be able to demonstrate the existence of hypocrisy in the Western (or Chinese) media; it is to also understand why those news sources don’t view their coverage as hypocritical.

wu wei:

DJ,
Sorry this is coming so late; I experienced problems posting earlier. There have indeed been credible reports of PAP killing unarmed civilians who were protesting in the days after 3/14. I can provide links to these reports (and pictures of corpses), but since they're mostly from the western media or the Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy, I'm not sure you'll feel that you can trust them or not. But the notion that these things have happened isn't a major logical leap. Why have there been instances of U.S. soldiers firing on unarmed Iraqi civilians, when that clearly doesn't make their occupation effort easier? The answer is that these things happen when people get edgy in situations that cause them to react without thinking. That doesn't excuse them, but they are certainly not unimaginable.
I've been trying to find sources that validate your claim that the Dalai Lama's conditions for negotiation include the removal of all Chinese military from greater Tibet, and haven't come across any. To the contrary, I've found that the Dalai Lama has stated that the number of PAP in Tibetan cities should be reduced, but is not demanding that all Chinese military withdraw from Tibet. Neither is a precondition for negotiations. With regard to non-Tibetans in Tibet, the reports I've found say that the Dalai Lama wants the number of Han Chinese immigrating into Tibet to be substantially reduced, but doesn't demand that Han already settled there be forcibly removed. A good source on the history of the dialogue between the CCP and the Dalai Lama can be found at the Free Library.com by searching the titles for “the politics of the Dalai Lama’s new initiative for autonomy.” An extensive list of sources is included that is very useful. This account shows that the Dalai Lama has grown increasingly flexible in his demands over the years, and it stands to reason that he would seriously consider making even more compromises if China were to hold substantive negotiations with him. Like said before, I wish they would make more of an effort to do so.

BRAMBLES:

@ Amazing:

Also, trust is reciprocal.
I believe more communication between the PEOPLE on either side is a GOOD THING. I dont see the wisdom in 'NOT TRUSTING' someone because he can not yet be among a majority vote to remove his president.
Do you believe there's difference between you and your democratically elected government? Does your government represent everything about you?
I dont know. Seems you have a clear answer.

BRAMBLES:

@ Amazing:

Please dont get amazed, not that much at least.

The goal is clear and simple: democralization. There's clearly a major difference of opinion regarding how and when to get there. It's a complicated issue anywhere. Remember China is a vast, diversified country.

BTW, the much hyped "Nationalistic fever" in China, is nothing but a show of FEAR. The Chinese people fear a lot of things. But their worst fear is instability, for example, the instability caused by a mini civil war on Tibet secession. A clear majority of us are toiling day and night to improve our live stock. When we have enough personal property to defend, to fight for, you'll see big and sweeping change.
They are fight now, by voicing opposition to dramatic change of social order. They are trying to get their share of the economic boom. They are entitled to it.

Amazing:

Its amazing to me that the Chinese posters still come here to voice their opinions… Not that there is anything wrong with it, but I just find it funny that they continue to try and use the same arguments to convince us they understand our side of things as well as explain theirs.

Understandably things have become heated, but unless you understand what it means to be Western and grow up knowing you can be and do whatever you want in this world, to include becoming president of your nation, you will never understand what kind of mentality and true freedom it takes to accomplish that on a society-wide scale.

Your system of government prevents the Chinese people from aspiring to the greatness they are capable of. Plain and simple. If you disagree on that then you obviously don’t have what it takes to understand our culture, whether or not you have lived here for 20 years or more.

The day your leadership can be replaced by majority vote is the day we will begin to trust your culture. Until then, your voice doesn’t represent the Chinese people, but rather your oppressive regime.

BRAMBLES:

@ WEI,

I agree with you that all medias have their own agendas, Chinese State Owned Media or western ones.
But I think there really is a difference in the 'degrees' of distorting the facts. Western medias are far more trustworthy on most issues, because on most issues they are to an extent less vulnerable to censor and in a degree more strongly scrutinized by media peers. Simply put, journalists of western media have far greater independence than typical Chinese journalists. We all know that greater independence, though sometimes backfires, are key to finding/restoring facts.
As for the comparison of guilibity between the Chinese people and people in the west, I m really not sure. The elite in either world have better sources of information so they are less subject to media bias. But as for the majority of the populations, I m not so sure.
There's no pure good and evil. But there are degrees/grades we can use to make evaluation.
I m as disappointed as you on the western media's report on the Tibet issue.

Your friend:

Wei,

Thanks for your post -- this really clarifies your argument.

You point to some kind of Gramscian role of the media in promoting political projects (whether democracy and free markets, or authoritarianism). Fair enough. I think this kind of hegemonic bias can be taken for granted and I, for one, don't doubt it. It is present in Western academia, certainly, with a whole sub-set of the political science discipline devoted to the study of democratization.

On balance, moves toward democratization are portrayed as a good thing in the Western press; reversion to authoritarianism is portrayed as bad. However, I don't think Western audiences are necessarily as "brain washed" as you believe -- i.e., absorbing reports uncritically. And I don't think this deep background of support for democracy over authoritarianism turns Western reporters into democro-bots, creatures bereft of free will, cranking out reports under the whip of their hardwired master.

But, Wei, you fail to mention perhaps the strongest hegemonic bias of the modern era: nationalism. We human beings are all nationalists in the modern period. And one can launch into anecdotes on this or that Western media report, or the re-naming of "freedom fries" in the US Congress; but this merely highlights that all peoples are subject to the influence of nationalism, to some degree.

However, the current hold of nationalism on the Chinese population seems to constitute a "bias" of epic proportions -- to the extent that ANY criticism of China, its leaders, or its policies, is viewed as some grand conspiracy of the West to keep China down. The reaction within China and among portions of the Chinese diaspora regarding recent events (the Lhasa riots, the Olympic torch protests, Carrefour’s rumored support for the Dalai Lama) suggests a level of nationalist “brain wash” unseen in many years. We may all be biased, in varying degrees, but the bombastic nationalism of China’s citizens today truly seems in a league of its own. That is what many find so troubling. Indeed, China in the 30's suffered grievously from the effects of just such a brain wash in Japan.

If we are discussing bias, let's not leave out the elephant in the room.


BRAMBLES:

@ Hypocrisy Rule:

>>The British occupied Hong Kong over 100 years, The Japanese was in Taiwan. Do you think they have the right of ownership by occupancy? Why not? Don’t bring out that US took the land away from the Indian argument, please. (END OF QUOTE)

My friend, I used to be such a liberal. I cant say I m now. I've been back to this country for nearly 7 years and I know better now. I suppose China is your country too?

You are saying that my line of logic is: WE occupied (or more accurately, WE invaded and then occupied) Tibet SO WE are legitimately the RULER of Tibet? Is that right?

Did I ever say that? When did I use the "US - American Indians" argument? I dont do that. Please dont get emotional. Stay calm and bear with me.

Here comes my only suggestion: READ CLEARLY WHAT I SAID. If you still dont understand, read again before you call someone hypocrite. It's simple as that.
I seriously doubt you understand what you said.

Instant News:

Now with mobile camera phones, anyone and everyone can be a reporter. Wonder why Tibet still remains closed to foreign tourists?

jiaming:

I think the mainstream media of both the West and China have somewhat lost their monopoly on information. The internet has opened up a completely new channel from which people are expressing facts and views not presented by the mainstream. Twenty years ago, the cropped photos of Tibetan rioters displayed in all those Western reports would have been left on the floor of CNN's editing room. But not today. Today, the media is under far more intense scrutiny than before because of the internet. It is a very good thing.

ZZZ:

Regarding the "bias" of Western media, it's really because they are for profit, and must say things their viewers wish to hear. In this sense, they are more of a reflection of the zeitgeist than propaganda mouthpiece as the Chinese state owned media explicitly are.

So the point is really why the shift in the zeitgeist? Why do the liberals care so much about Darfur and Tibet but turn a blind eye on Somali and Kenya? It's because one can use the former two against China. So the whole fracas is really about targeting China and finding whatever amunition at hand. And this is because the Western conciousness has reached a phase change point and awakened collectively to the Chinese threat, the slight but real real possibility that China might eclipse the West if nothing is done to contain it. China has awakened the sleeping giant that's the West. We live in intersting times.

wei:

Your friend again:

Here are my points

1. Western media is just as biased as any other media. And they are hypocrites. Bias alone, I actually don’t have a big problem with it. Journalism is fundamentally biased because bias is human. You can avoid it and it is not always a bad thing. What would u think if a Jewish journalist felt no emotion at all when he was covering the “Holocaust denial” conference in Teheran last year? My problem is with hypocrisy in western media!
2. Using the cliché, many Westerners are more “brain washed” than the Chinese. Why? because they think they are getting “fair and balanced” news from their news organizations and refuse to believe anything told from the other side. The Chinese know the state-controlled media is just a propaganda machine when it comes to news. But many Westerners are not aware their news organizations are propaganda machines too. They are just more subtle and promote “worthy” causes, such as democracy, freedom, free market etc. And with the well-deserved notoriety of some non-Western media, it is easy and convenient for a Westerner to dismiss anything unpleasant from CCTV, Xinhua News Agency, Al Jazeera's etc. and to restricts his/her news source only to Western media. Now tell me who are more open minded here, Westerners or the Chinese? And who are more likely being brain washed?

so be it:

After read all the posts, I have a sulotion:
Get all countries that has nukes togother, say a prayer, push the doomsday buttom, and START ALL OVER AGAIN

LOL:

@ beware of people came from communist nations!:

Time to change your wet diaper.

beware of people came from communist nations!:

All communist countries use brainwash to make their people become dumb and dangerous!
Therefore, most people in communist countries are very dangerous and bad! due to they behave like barbarous murderers and using all dirty tricks that most non-communist countries avoided!

So most people in communist countries that they become very dangerous to any nation they come!
They don't mind to do worst things to all nations they enter and this is why the entire world should be very careful to allow any individual who came from communist nation! these folks most the time practice as silent spies, silent thieves and silent devastators!
For safest practice, donot hire or let any individual who came from comunist country to find job, to study, to do researches, to open business, to make friend, etc., due to you might have great chance to be with a communist spy, communist trouble-maker, or communist thief!

Wei:

Your friend again:

Here are my points

1.Western media is biased just like news media in other countries. And they are hypocrites. Bias alone, I actually don’t have a big problem with it. Journalism is fundamentally biased because bias is human. You can avoid it and it is not always a bad thing. What would u think if a Jewish journalist felt no emotion at all when he was covering the “Holocaust denial” conference in Teheran last year? My problem is with hypocrisy in western media!
2.Using the cliché, many Westerners are more “brain washed” than the Chinese. Why? because they think they are getting “fair and balanced” news from their news organizations and refuse to believe anything told from the other side. The Chinese know the state-controlled media is just a propaganda machine when it comes to news. But many Westerners are not aware their news organizations are propaganda machines too. They are just more subtle and promote “worthy” causes, such as democracy, freedom, free market etc. And with the well-deserved notoriety of some non-Western media, it is easy and convenient for a Westerner to dismiss anything unpleasant from CCTV, Xinhua News Agency, Al Jazeera's etc and to restricts his/her news source only to Western media. Now tell me who are more open minded here, Westerners or the Chinese? And who are more likely being brain washed?

Your friend again:

Wei,

I have no doubt you firmly believe what you are saying. I also firmly believe what I am saying. We happen to disagree.

To be clear: I don't reject your arguments because you are Chinese (I have no idea whether you are, or not), but because your arguments consist of little more than a random narration regarding how you formed your opinion on the US media.

In fact, based on your last post, I'm not really sure what your argument is. Is it that "all media is biased on all issues"? Is that your point? If so, what does that mean? We should not listen to the media ever again, on any issue?

You are certainly welcome to your views. I just don't share them.

Give me free China:

I agree, as much it will hurt the "Good" Chinese in China and around the world who have invested heavily in China, it is time to place the "Head Control Brace" onto the Monkey King that is making a farce in Middle Kingdom and cast him under the 5 Finger Mountain of Buddha, and stop all of these little red flag waving monkeys, so China could go back to the path of democracy and a peace loving Nation. Every time these goblins and ill educated monkeys goes out of line and misbehave, than we will have the control spell on the King Monkey to keep him and his minions in line. This is the only way Chinese Citizens and the world can control this Beast, otherwise... you have seem the display of the wild and barbaric temperament of these creatures that will unleash chaos and destruction to world peace. And this is the tip of the iceberg , don't let it become the Titanic of Democracy.

wei:

More of an acquaintance, really:

WTH are u talking about? We already have “pro-authoritarian” media in the names of CCTV, People’s Daily, Xinhua News Agency….
Let me clarify one thing first. I am a libertarian and am hostile to any infringement on our freedoms by any government. I greatly cherish and admire the freedom of the press in the west. But I also hate hypocrisy. And the self-anointed “fair and balanced” news organizations in the west are one of the biggest.
As I repeatedly said, I am OK with the way CNN, BBC, New York Times presenting their stories. It’s their freedom. I read, watch and listen to many news sources, including the western media, and am fully capable of reaching my own conclusion. So continue your spin as u want. But it’s also my right to remind these organizations and other people of their hypocrisy in lecturing others.
So for the bias in the news coverage, is it just unavoidable human errors or is it an institutional attitude? When I was younger, more naïve and was in China, I believe the former. As in my reply to Martin S., when I was in China, I totally embraced the idea of objective journalism, the western media was my inspiration and had utter despise towards the Chinese media. I still despise the Chinese media, no question about that. But as I came here and had first hand exposure to the western media, I now totally reject the idea of objective journalism. This had very little to do with Sino/US relationship. I formed this opinion during the Clinton year when the talk in the town was “strategic partnership” between the two countries. I came to this conclusion after witnessing how the media here covering issues such as abortion, gay rights, gun control, tobacco litigation, affirmative actions, OJ trial ….
It’s funny we hear accusation of media bias all the time in this country from both the left and the right. We are so used to it that news channels even exploit it for higher TV ratings. But when some Chinese make the same accusation, some Westerners seem to have a really hard time swallowing it. Makes u wonder why.

SecureOurBorders:

China has been funded by corporations that make products that we buy. We are just paying the price for our own greed.

Then again, back when industry was being shipped overseas to save a buck on things we bought, activists were screaming as loud as they could about what would happen.

If we as the majority, had been intelligent enough to see the results of our quest for cheaper goods back then, we wouldn’t even be talking about this right now and China would still be a 95% impoverished nation instead of the 75% they are now.

Now that we DO know, it is up to us to pressure our businesses to invest more in American business. They think we will not buy it, but if they guarantee us that our extra $0.25 is going to support their efforts to keep things in the USA, I think most would buy that product over a Chinese cheaper alternative.

What we need though from those companies are guarantees… Otherwise it will never work as they, as well as all business in the world, thrive on the maximize profits model.

Regarding Jack Cafferty:

Here is how I see things unfolding and the position the Chinese should be taken on Mr. Jack Cafferty's foul and loud mouth regarding Chinese, and their motherland.

Google Search: "Jack Cafferty Loud mouth"

Koo Yuen

More of an acquaintance, really:

Wei,

So your point is that we need some pro-authoritarian journalists to even things out?
That is the logic of your argument. Do you see that?

I agree with you that "instances" of bias occur. Naturally. I merely object to your characterization of the scale and scope of bias that occurs on any issue. Your comments portray "Western media" as an undifferentiated mass of democracy-promoting ideologues.

A journalist's "agenda", as you put it, is to present events in as balanced a light as possible. Period.

You have likely noticed, journalists make mistakes, they don't all agree, they go back and correct ommissions and errors they missed first time around. They are human....

Here's the lecture again: it's called a free press. Because some of the reporting doesn't fit your taste, you feel attempt to trash the entire institution. Which, btw, is fine. But I don't agree with your argument.

Wei:

STILL YOUR FRIEND, THOUGH:

I don’t know if u are from a former communist country or what. Are u saying only state-controlled media can be biased? If so, u are either naïve or disingenuous here.
Do liberals think Fox News is “fair and balanced”? How many conservatives think New York Times or Washington Post is controlled by the liberals, if not traitors? What’s the English word for these criticisms? Bias, is that right?
One has to be an idiot or very unsecured to feel the need to let people know the Chinese media is biased just like those idiots who try to defend the Chinese media bias. But one would equally be a fool to think the Western media has no agenda in their news coverage.
Come on, just think sports journalism. If a reporter is a die-hard Yakees fan, can u really trust his objectness in his coverage of a playoff game between Yanks and Red Sox? Is other field in the journalism really that different from sports in terms of objectivity? Aren't most Western journalists die-hard believers in western demarcracy?

who-on-earth-can-find-a-good-communist or a communist country?:

Due to I know there is no such "good communist" or good "communist nation" exists on earth! Therefore, the said prize will never land on any good lucker in this world!

who-on-earth-can-find-a-good-communist or a communist country?:

I challenge to all mankind to find a good communist or a good communist nation!
Who can find even a single good communist or a good communist nation as not a murderer, thug, or world-trouble-maker then will deserve to get a check with millions euros!
The world can try from today! and get a prize!

world-must-stay-away-from-the land-of -devils:

The world must stay awy from the land of devils!
Don't do busness with devils communists!
All communists are murderers and dangerous! Stay awy from all communist nations these devils are no good to any society!

Still your friend, though:

Wei,

You equate CCTV with the Western media, it seems. Here is your quote: "Both try to spin the events to fit their agendas. Of course, they are ideologically light-year apart. But just as CCTV serves the interest of an authoritarian government, Washington Post, CNN, BBC etc are nothing but the mouth piece of the western democracy."

Umm...CCTV controls coverage to serve a regime that does not want to lose power. Do we agree? The CCP is in control of CCTV. Fair enough?

All right, then: is the US government "in control" of the Western media? Seriously...

In your effort to support your viewpoint, you undertake twists of logic that destroy any credibility your argument might have.

Your subsequent pastiche of anecdotes is just that...a jumble of anecdotes. It fails to cover your weak reasoning.

Wei:

Your friend:

U still don't get it! When some of us say western media and the Chinese media are the same, we mean they are the same in their approaches. Both try to spin the events to fit their agendas. Of course, they are ideologically light-year apart. But just as CCTV serves the interest of an authoritarian government, Washington Post, CNN, BBC etc are nothing but the mouth piece of the western democracy. We are not here debating whose ideology is superior! (Believe it or not, most Chinese prefer freedom over dictatorship. ) We are debating if the Western media is as innocent as it claims and the answer is a resounding NO.
To anyone who thinks western press is objective, please answer me the following questions.
Remember the Afghan war in the 80s? Many western reporters such as Dan Rather sneaked into that country, tagged along the Mujahadins, and covered their bloody fight against the Russians. They were praised for their courage and probably some even won the Pulitzer for that.
Now fast forward to 2008, if Taliban invites Brian Williams or some other western journalists to come along with them and cover their fight against the US, do u think any sane people here would accept it? But what about unbiased coverage, what about listen to the other side of the story?
Does anyone still remember Peter Arnett and how fast CNN fired him after he appeared on the Iraqi television questioning US invasion? What about freedom of press and freedom of expression?
As I said in my other post, western news organizations are free to serve their agendas and to choose the way they want to cover news events. Just please stop lecturing others about what objective journalism is as if they know it themselves.

Your friend:

Chinese by-stander offers a case lesson: when logic fails...

chinese-bystander:

@Your friend:

so how long have you been watching cctv? how many channels they have?

chinese-bystander:

@I am a Cummy Thug:

If an idiot like you can write chinese as good,you are more than welcome to come to any chinese forums cursing and spitting, heck you could even do that in english, but u dont know any chinese forums do you? probably you dont know nothing about china firsthandly, do u?

Your friend:

Chinese by-stander states:

"every chinese knows CCTV is crap, that's the part of the reason we used to think CNN and BBC and Western media in general are fair and balanced, now it turns out they are all the same, tools of the government and tools of the corporates, what's the difference."

The Chinese by-stander should probably sit down as he is surely light-headed: The Western media is the same as CCTV? Oh, I get it. Democracy = Authoritarianism, right? No, difference. Free speech = house arrest? Yes, yes. I understand now. Thank you.

We have things in common:

Wikipedia: The Los Angeles riots of 1992, also known as the Rodney King uprising, were sparked on April 29, 1992 when a jury acquitted four police officers accused in the videotaped beating of black motorist Rodney King when he resisted arrest following a high-speed pursuit. Thousands of people in the Los Angeles area commenced to a riot over the six days following the verdict. Widespread looting, assault, arson and the occasional murder occurred, many gang-motivated or perpetrated. In all, 53 people died during the riots.

Surprisingly similar to the Tibet riots. Please spare a thought for all Chinese and Tibetans who suffered that day.

I am a Cummy Thug:

chinese-bystander:

The difference is we are here debating you idiot!

Hypocrisy Rule:

BRAMBLES:

The British occupied Hong Kong over 100 years, The Japanese was in Taiwan. Do you think they have the right of ownership by occupancy? Why not? Don’t bring out that US took the land away from the Indian argument, please.

So why do China has the right to occupancy of Tibet?

Because the CCP said so! conquered keepers right?
So why we fought the Japanese for 8 years? We killed many Japanese while we were protesting the occupation from Japan, and they killed many of us each time in retaliation and round us up, and what do we call that? We kept fighting until we got our country back, with the help of the US military! So I guess it was bad luck that Japanese didn't occupied China entirely and never for long so that otherwise based on your and CCP's reason, the Japanese could be the rightful owner of China.
It is different from China occupying Tibet because we been controlling them longer? In your own words, “is that logical?”

What hypocrisy are you smoking, I would love some! Man I am having a field day, some many here!

chinese-bystander:

@I am Cummy Thug,

"CCP has a major credibility problem", you think we dont know that? every chinese knows CCTV is crap, that's the part of the reason we used to think CNN and BBC and Western media in general are fair and balanced, now it turns out they are all the same, tools of the government and tools of the corporates, what's the difference.

ple. see what Tibetan said about tibet:

more detail see:http://bbs.tiexue.net/post_2707074_1.html

I am from the Aba County in the Sichuan Province of China, and in my home county, most inhabitants are ethnically Tibetan, Qiang, or Han. I am a Tibetan. Should you have any doubt about my identity, please feel free to look me up by my identification: 51322219*****0473. (Translator’s note: that identification is similar to social insurance number, so for security reasons the author does not publish the complete identification on a public forum.)


I would love to see some of my Tibetan kinfolks repent about their actions when they read this article.

[ 转自铁血社区 http://bbs.tiexue.net/ ]

How alluring is the concept of freedom! It is surely glorious and right to seek one’s freedom. However, I do not understand why we have to seek this freedom when we already have it. The actions of some of my Tibetan kinfolks are bringing shame to our brother ethnicities, as well as our government. Yes, it is right for us to value our own history and our own beliefs to continue the majestic spirit of King Gesar*. When I was at the Seda Buddhist College, I learned the full Epic of King Gesar from the scriptures, and King Gesar brought pride to all of us Tibetans and us Chinese. King Gesar is a hero, he has brought good lives to all of us, yet is H.H. the Dalai Lama capable of such? I would like to compare the accomplishment of our hero and the Chinese authority. I would not like to talk about the Dalai, because he shames me too much to make such comparison on his behalf.

1. We Tibetans are grateful.


Senor, Zhuoda, and Dunzhu*,


You often come to this forum, and it appears from your speeches that you have already forgotten the teachings of your parents: when you receive, you give back.

(*Translator’s Note: These are the names of the author’s relatives whom he is addressing. )


Do you still remember the stories the Dedideng Grandpa* told us? In case you forget, I shall remind you: he tells that we Tibetans are grateful.

[ 转自铁血社区 http://bbs.tiexue.net/ ]
(* Translator’s note: The author refers the Grandpa as A-Mi in his mother dialect.)


Grandpa said that when the Chinese took over Tibet, we Tibetans were truly librated. We were no longer suppressed by those aristocrat slave owners, and we were no longer their slaves or serves. The government gave us livestock and farms, and they even let us share the aristocrats’ mansion!


Then the authority sent their troops to build us the road to Lhasa. They really did it, and Grandpa clearly recalled the horrendous hardship while building that road! They had to make their own gun powder to bomb the boulders, and on that day 17 people sacrificed their lives for us. They were buried by the fallen rocks.


The authority transported salt and tea for us, but they did not ask anything in return, and replied that it is given by the government. The villagers carried their own barley to feed the trucks, and said: “It is tough for the trucks to carry so much to us!”


Then the central government left two of those trucks for the village, and asked nothing in return. After the road was built, we could really go to Lhasa on automobiles!


Later on, we had a drought that strained the grass field, so the livestock did not gain enough fat. In the same year, the winter was exceptionally harsh, and countless livestock froze to death. We were hopeless, but right at the time, the authority informed us that the central government was sending us resources. We could not believe it initially, but in two days, the trucks truly brought us food, duvet, and all that we need. Our fathers performed the long prostration on the grass field out of appreciation: they were not thanking the heavens or the Dalai Lama. Instead, they were grateful for the aid from the government, and the support from the rest of China.

[ 转自铁血社区 http://bbs.tiexue.net/ ]

2. To the Separatists:


When it comes to the time of our generations, we have experienced the real progress brought by the central government.


Senor, could you please tell me who has installed electric lights to your home, and who has implemented the satellite TV receptor for you? Could you also tell me who has built the hospital for our village, and where the doctors are from? On whose budget do we have a free way, and who has built telephone system for our village? Who pays the tuition for our younger siblings, and who takes care of us during natural disasters? Do you recall that year of landslide? Your uncle’s* house was destroyed, and who built him a new house? That is right, you are now distinguished because you study abroad, but do you recall Dr. Zhang from Sichuan University? He supports your studies, but what are you doing while you are abroad? What have you done to our country? Do you care about how your family and Dr. Zhang, your benefactor, thinks about you?

(*Translator’s note: here the author refers to his acquaintance’s uncle’s wife as Mi-er. Mi-er means mother’s brother’s wife in his language.)


Now that we also have the railway, do we still live under poverty? You know we are not impoverished, but Dalai Lama still leeches from us. His adherents sit in the temple, and are inaugurated as Living Buddha’s at his will. Yet all they do is to touch the foreheads of villagers, and our village folks become obliged to send piles and piles of hard earned money to their temple. The central government has helped us Tibetans so much, yet they do not even charge tax from us. They consider our situations difficult, so they cancelled our taxation. We give our money to the temple, and then we go to the government for financial aid. Did the government say anything? No, all they say is that: “We respect the religious feelings of every ethnicity.”


Those who want to separate Tibet from the rest of China, are you really suppressed? Who is slaughtering you? No body does that. Making up such stories will make you despicable to the entire humanity.

[ 转自铁血社区 http://bbs.tiexue.net/ ]

3. To International Friends:


I know you are friends with my brothers, and they suggest you to come to this forum, so I would like to a few words to you in the following passage.


In China, we Tibetans enjoy equal rights as every other ethnicity, and in addition we enjoy the minority welfare. I am sure you have heard rumors such as that the Tibetans are ethnically cleansed by the Chinese, or the Chinese government brutally suppresses the Tibetans’ protest. You may have also heard that all Tibetans are protesting for independence, or that the Chinese government does not support actual construction for Tibetans and all they do is for colonization. My friends, those rumors are simply what they are: rumors! Let me tell you what is happening in my homeland. I believe I have more authority to talk about my home than anyone else.


The central government has been supporting Tibet ever since it implemented the “Open Door Policy”, and the following are what I find to be some of its most substantial aid:


1. Tibet is one of the first minority regions where the central government cancels the taxation.


2. It is not true that Tibet lacks freedom. Tibet is one of the autonomous regions of China, and we Tibetans have been ruling Tibet with our own hands.

[ 转自铁血社区 http://bbs.tiexue.net/ ]

3. We also enjoy various aids from the central government. The central government gives national funding to encourage college graduates to come to Tibet, and help the construction in education, manufacturing etc.


4. The central government has built a railway for Tibet in order to help Tibet’s economical growth. Meanwhile, during natural disasters, the central government always aids the Tibetan people with all of its power.


I also want to make a few other points:


1. We Tibetans are not discriminated. The other ethnicities treat us as brothers, and we enjoy all the rights and welfare applicable to other Chinese citizens.


2. We Tibetans are truly grateful for the rest of China. It is not true that all Tibetans are protesting for independence. In my hometown, the population is 70% Tibetan, but there are only a few carry ambitious schemes. They are only one out of four thousand, and those people are scorned as trash in my hometown. My friends, you are educated, and freedom embracing individuals, please do not be fooled by those who are despised by even their own people.


3. We Tibetans are not impoverished: Tibet has a higher mean household income level than most of China. In my hometown, on average each household has 40 cattle and 100 goats. The average household’s profit from cattle, wool*, and medicine trade is approximately 100,000 RMB (14,271.44 USD**), while an average person has annual income of 20,000 RMB (2,854.289 USD). Yet because most people choose to donate much of their earning to the temples, the do not appear as well off as their income indicates.

[ 转自铁血社区 http://bbs.tiexue.net/ ]
(Translators Note:

* The author suggests in the article that in his hometown, cattle wool is also traded in addition to traditional wool from lamb or goats.

** The currency exchange rate is quoted on April 11, 2008)


4. The Tibetans are not suppressed during the recent riot. The illegal protesters are constrained by the different levels of police according to international charter, and only the violent protesters who attack the officers are forcefully arrested. I wonder if the situation is treated any differently in your country.


I believe my brothers will not deny the above statements, so please ask them for further clarification.


本文内容于 2008-4-14 15:56:15 被小编I编辑
[ 转自铁血社区 http://bbs.tiexue.net/ ]
转载请注明出自铁血tiexue.net, 本贴地址: http://bbs.tiexue.net/post_2707074_1.html

I am Cummy Thug::

DJ:

I am sure you and the all truthful CCP propaganda department scholars will able to provide the prof that needed to convince the naive West's opinions that's been bedeviled by the big liar himself The Dalai Lama?

Your typical slash and smeared then intimidation techniques has been over played here, try something fresh, like real information for a change!

CCP has a major credibility problem, tried sources elsewhere and show the prof or cite the source other than the usual manufactured, and then lets see how you score.

BRAMBLES:

@California:

Did you "bail" out? I was too busy the past two days so I just saw your comments.
Again, no offense, you assume way too much before you put any real thinking on it. Sometimes people disagree with you not because they dont think. I suppose you take it otherwise. Or how should I interpret your reaction? Did you actually "READ" any of my words? If you are talking about a matter of rights, do you think any "original" thinking is needed?
You said you've been to China and actually know something about my country. Good. Does any of my people look or sound stupid to you? Do you know there's a law called Anti-secession Law? Do you know it's a crime in this country rooting for the split of the nation? Do you know why? Do know you how many people support the law's enactment and for that matter, do you know how many people support the nation's unity? Do you know why? You talk about human rights like some of others do, but I seriously doubt you have had any real education/research on the subject. Besides the moral position you take, there's no legal basis for your claiming that people should have a right to decide whether they should form an independent country out of the current one. You DO KNOW THE RULE OF LAW right? Some acts are criminalized in some country but not in others, why do you think there's a need for difference? Do you think we should just copy your legal system from the bottom up and stop THINKING? Second guessing others' opinion from your own point of view is very convenient. Everybody can do that. I m trying not to err on the same side.
My original thoughts? No I dont get any. I didnt say I agree with my government's policy on Tibet either. I did however state in my earlier posts: I support any "government" policies that garranttee religious freedom to the Tibetan people (as currently it is under the law) and the presevation of their distinctive culture heritage. I m for any policies that aims at the promotion of the Tibetan's welfare. I m all for allowing Tibetans more freedom in running their own affairs with respect to both religion and culture if they so desire.
But INDEPENDENCE? Absolutely not.
It's hard for me to explain to you, Chinese people's apparently natural antagonization toward separation/split of the nation. It's deeply rooted in this country's history. You may call the notion outdated but it is a FACT. A fact neither you or I can change.
As for the talk of the mineral below Tibet and Taiwan's strategic geo importance, well realpolitk does make sense. But, are you saying we can't think in realpolitk? You can, but when we do that, we are not thinking originally?
Rights, or realpolitik? Pick one, dude. Think.

Hypocrisy Rule:

Hear hear! Nicely put, Wu Wei.

This is why I hang out here waiting for voice of reason and good judgment. And you did not disappoint.
~~~~~~~~
So many good lessons for you guys to learn, but will you let it sink in and start change your narrow viewpoints? Will you start changing your countryman's fate?

DJ:

wu wei,

How could anyone claim that the Chinese government were only killing innocent and peaceful protesters AFTER the violent and deadly March 14 riot by these looters and killers? Is this even logical?

Oh and all these glowing reports about the saint Dalai Lama, who is more than reasonable and isn't calling for Tibet independence. Do you know the details of his demand? Let's see: All non-Tibetan must move out of the GREATER Tibet, which according to him include several surrounding provinces of Tibet as defined today and accounts for 1/3 of China's land. All military must move out as well. And only then some meaningful discussion would start on how things would work in Tibet. Isn't that great?

wu wei:

Spring,

No thoughtful person begrudges China for cracking down on the looters and killers; any government anywhere would do that. However, that doesn't mean that the PAP was justified in killing unarmed peaceful demonstrators in the days following 3/14. It's clear that the aim of Chinese security forces wasn't to massacre all the protesters; those killings probably happened in the heat of the moment, and were not premeditated. But that doesn't make them any less tragic, or deserving of less media attention (East or West).

What seems obvious to most people is that there are serious problems regarding China's policies in Tibet. Given the scale of the demonstrations that took place there recently, I think we can all acknowledge that the Tibet issue isn't just a feel-good pet project of the western left, but something that Tibetans feel strongly about and want resolved. So why the lack of willingness on the part of the Chinese to work on it? On the other side of the bargaining table is the Dalai Lama, who seems willing to negotiate in good faith with China and who doesn't advocate the use of violence in dealing with this issue. Not that a true resolution would be easy, but it seems relatively promising compared to the Israel/Palestine and Russia/Chechnya conflicts. It's sad to think that so many people have had to withstand oppression for decades, to the point where some turn to violence and kill innocent people, all because a government is afraid of losing face by agreeing to any kind of discussions or negotiations. I hope that in the future, China's leadership will take a more pragmatic and open-minded view.

JL:

The western media is more or less a reflection of the overall mood of westerners. China is no doubt a rising power, and the western public is fearful. The media is simply feeding what people want to hear, as it always does. To blame the media for all the one-sided stories they reported is kind of like blaming George W. Bush for everything that went wrong in America. Didn't the majority of the US population voted him into office? While blaming Iraq for 9/11 when the government failed to catch the real culprit, Osama Bin Laden, is strangely satisfying to most Americans in 2003, it is also very harmful to the country as it would soon turn out. Now, China is the threat on every westerners' mind, and the media again start shouting what's on everbody's mind. Slamming China on human rights and Tibet, causing maximum damage to the Beijing Olympics are even easier than blaming Sadam Hussein for 9/11. There is certain sense of entitlement in the west, particular the US. When people experience hardship, they expect someone to be blamed. It doesn't matter if it solves anything. It makes them feel better, at least for the moment.

Wei:

Martin S.:

Yeah, u are right. Every news coverage is biased. There is NO such thing called objective journalism. This goes for all news organizations in the world. U should watch the documentary "Control Room" which is about Al Jazeera's coverage of Iraq war. In it, an Arabian women editor said bluntly: Every news organization has its agenda.
Sorry to burst your bubbles here, but western media is no exception here.
If u are old enough, u would remember around 15 years (?) ago, Washington Post had to apologize publicly because they totally ignored a pro-life rally at the Mall, which was attended by hundreds of thousands of people. (Was anyone really surprised by that?) And we all know how objective Dan Rather, one of the best known journalists in the West, was. If this could happen in domestic news reports, why u think it won't happen with regard to international affairs?
If u think by watching Fox News and reading Washington Post, u would get the stories from both sides, think again. Don't u remember the Iraq war? As Fox News was passionately telling the imminent danger of WMD by Saddam, wasn't Washington Post hyping the "heroic fight" by the Rambo-like Private Jessica Lynch?
As I said in the previous post, I have no intension, and no capability, to defend the Chinese news organizations. What I want is to point out the fact, that the western media has its own agenda just like their Chinese counter part or any other news organizations in the world.
CNN, Washington Post, BBC, etc are free to choose how they want to cover any news events. But please spare me the claim of unbiased coverage here. Freedom of the press is one thing and i am all for it, including Jack Cafferty's. But hypocrisy is another thing.
22 years ago I was in high school and there were huge student protests throughout China. (That's years before the 89 bloodshed.) The principal invited a young alumnus to spin the party's harsh response. He was a journalist and tried to explain to us why the news media failed to cover any of these protests. His answer was just like the Al Jazeera's editor: There was NO such thing as objective journalism anywhere in the world and the media in China serves the party. I remember most of my friends and I at that time felt he's BS and our inspiration was the western press. And i was almost convinced that guy probably didn't believe what he said himself either. I have been living in US for 15 years and after 5 or 6 years here, with the exposure to the Western news media, I realized how wise that guy's comment was and couldn't help wondering if he really realized it himself or not.
The sad truth is while the Chinese realize they are being exposed to the government propaganda and try to seek the other side's story, many Westerners have the delusion that they have been receiving unbiased news coverages thanks to the freedom of the press.
Westerners conveniently use "brain wash" to explain Chinese, Arabians,Muslims etc, who may actually disagree with the "sacred" Western value system. But when a westerner always hears only one side of the story, isn't he/she in danger of being brain washed? Or westerners are immune because of something in their cultures, genes etc?

DJ:

Martin S.,

Exactly where do you see any statement that these rioting Tibetans on March 14 were TERRORISTS and KILLERS! And show me any evidence (not rumor) that there was a bloody crackdown as to make them victims. A lot of the Chinese are angry precisely because the government were so weak in the face of the clear murderous rampage.

As for some western media's eventual reporting of eye witness interviews, they were low key and insufficiently covered. I also saw the article in the Washington Post when it arrived but it was more of exception than the rule. Just do a survey of all the reporting on this subject from the major newspapers and TV channels, even now, the vast majority of them leave readers and viewers nothing but the impression of evil China killing innocent peace loving Tibetans. THE DAMAGE WAS DONE AND STILL BEING INFLICTED. A small sample of neutral toned articles on the contrary does not change the fundamental biased or racist nature of the narratives in the western circles.

This is one case of the entirety of western media and activists suppressing truth and turning black to white in the absolute sense. With a few exceptions, the integrities of most of the reporters and so called human rights activists are completely bankrupt.

Spring:

@Martin S.

you really dont know what is "biased" media coverage? really? When a journalist has pre-determined opinions on the issue, so that he would go thus far to ignore or even distort certain facts, it's called biased media converage.

now quit playing dumb.

Spring:

@Martin S,

If you believe what you said, that innocent Han Chinese were being attacked and killed by mobs of Tibetan rioters. Then what's wrong with cracking down on these looters and killers? oh I get it, because they had a "reason" to loot and kill... So did those terrorists hit the twin-tower.

Your friend:

HS,

Interesting, if opaque, question. But I thought we were discussing the whole "bias" issue....can we stay on topic, for at least a bit?

Martin S.:

DJ,

Your call for balanced coverage is hard to take seriously when, from the start, you define the Han and Hui as “the real victims.” And so the Tibetans who were killed are the “fake victims”? I thought they were all victims. In my naïve reading of the “biased” Western press accounts, this is how I understood it. Thank you for rectifying my faulty understanding.

Your quoted account from CCT’s comments clearly state that the WP posted James Kenwood’s account, that James Miles of the Economist was interviewed – on CNN, no less! – “in which he basically said in so many words: his direct observations of what happened on March 14th matches the [Chinese] government version.”

I personally followed the news reporting closely from the NY Times, Christian Science Monitor, the WP, BBC, LA Times, etc., and – from the start -- there was no mistake that innocent Han Chinese were being attacked and killed by mobs of Tibetan rioters. Their deaths are every bit as tragic as those of Tibetans killed.

I don’t know the precise degrees of constraint journalists faced doing their jobs in the first days of the riots. However, I do know that Western journalists’ efforts to achieve “balanced” coverage of sensitive issues in China are routinely and energetically obstructed by Chinese authorities. In this context, CCT’s attempt to place a “time limit” on reporting (“I don't think we can judge Western media purely on the basis of what is said, but also on *when* it is said”) appears intellectually bankrupt.

Indeed, CCT finishes by grossly distorting the coverage of the Lhasa riots: “It has, unfortunately, become accepted "fact" amongst many Western readers that March 14th was indeed just another Tiananmen; that peaceful protesters were killed by heavily armed troops firing indiscrimnantly into crowds; that Beijing has again committed murder upon her own citizens.”

This is not the story that came out in the press that I read. Rather, it is the cartoon book version created by someone who wants to create an orthodoxy regarding who the “real victims” are.

HS:

Martin S., You should ask for a more fundamental yardstick, the one for "freedom" and "human rights". With that you can evaluate the status of every country, and evaluate the behavior of the your media in covering these subjects in different countries, and conclude whether they are biased or unbiased.

If according to your yardstick it is ok for US to cause 1 million death in Iraq, and it is also ok for Israel to kill Palestinians on the occupied land for a few decades, but it is not ok for China to put down a riot, then let's not wasting time here.

DJ:

Martin S.,

I have meant to take some time to detail what went so wrong in the overall western media from March 14 and onwards. However, a commenter named CCT has done the job in response to Richard Spencer's attempted (but largely failed) effort of examining this issue in Telegraph.

So I am reproducing CCT's comment in its entirety to answer your question at the buttom, since he/she captured just about everything I want to say as well. (Well, not the part about vast majority of Western journalists act with genuine integrity. I can not give them that much credibility. They as a whole did not earn it, and whatever level of integrity they could have claimed to is lost for most of them anyway in this event.)

And one more thing, a reason why most Chinese, in or outside of China, supporter or not of the government/party, are unified in anger and disgust at the western media's collective performance is: the willful non-coverage of the real victims, i.e. suffering and death of the han and hui Chinese, in Tibet on March 14 can only be logically deduced as meaning they do not view han and hui Chinese as humans and deserving human rights as well.

And now, comment from CCT:
--------------------------------------------------

I will concede to being one of the many Chinese who believe the Western media dropped the ball. I don't say this on the basis of the CNN picture cropping controversy, but rather on the basis of my own expectations for objective reporting.

Let me start by saying that I for one believe the vast, vast majority of Western journalists act with genuine integrity, and hold their journalistic principles as being sacred. This, to me, makes the subsequent negligence even more difficult to imagine.

In the early hours of May 14th, Western print media ran more or less the predictable story on the issue of Tibet... all they had were keywords: Tibetan monks, riot, armed Chinese troops, deaths. They combined these in more or less predictable ways, and I couldn't blame them.

But by May 15th, a different story had already begun to emerge. The blogger Kadfly had posted his now infamous video of the Chinese man on the scooter being beaten by a Tibetan mob. James Miles had already filed several wire reports (for the Guardian as well as Economist) capturing his eyewitness accounts: Tibetan violence aimed at Han Chinese civilians, and no direct evidence of a violent/forceful military reaction. The Christian Science Monitor also ran an early report, including quotes from an interview with Kadfly + their European friends in Lhasa. (One European eyewitness gives an iconic quote in that CS Monitor article from 03/14: "They were aiming to kill Muslims and Chinese for a free Tibet.")

I, personally, thought that the Western press would pick up on these changes rather quickly. Kadfly's pictures had made it to the cover of the New York Times, and James Miles, certainly, is someone who's easily identifiable and with obvious credentials; surely the *implications* of what they were reporting would quickly spread. It never did.

Two days later, by March 17th, Western tourists had begun to leave Lhasa. A press conference was held in Kathmandu, and a few wire reports captured part of what they reported. The Toronto Star first introduced me to the name "James Kenwood"; his observations (as well as other tourists with him) were in exact correlation to what Kadfly and James Miles had observed. This time, I thought... finally! Surely first person eyewitness accounts speaking at a press conference would gather *some* attention. It never did... no major Western news source wrote an article based on their account; the only AP wire report that mentions James Kenwood only talks about the ironic fact that those cleaning up after the riots in Lhasa wore vests emblazoned with the 2008 Olympics logo. It took another 11 days before the Washington Post finally broke the boycott and posted James Kenwood's account in a comprehensive overview of what the riot actually entailed.

At almost the same time, James Miles of the Economist left Lhasa as his visa expired. (Various wire reports chose to describe him as being "expelled", although he personally refused to use such a term.) He gave a comprehensive interview on CNN, in which he basically said in so many words: his direct observations of what happened on March 14th matches the government version. I thought... surely, this would be it. Finally, the editors at the BBC and the New York Times would come around on these issues.

I waited for the Western press to not just perform the function of relaying facts, but to actually interpret them in a fair way. I waited for the Western press to describe race riots, and to refrain from using the terms "brutal crackdown" to describe what had happened in Lhasa on 3/14. I waited for the Western press to absorb information from these credible, identifiable Western eyewitnesses... rather than relying repeatedly on hear-say accounts delivered by the Tibetan government-in-exile.

It simply hasn't happened. I want to give you some credit here Richard: you personally have been "fair". You haven't helped forward the cause of truth on this issue, but you at least didn't detract from it. And perhaps you've been so busy with the news gathering effort that you haven't been involved in the news *digesting* process... try. Try flipping through the wire reports issued during that first key week after March 14th. Tell me if you saw James Miles' reports given the same credibility and prominence as the stories (now-proven lies) coming out of Dharamasala.

(The Tibetan government-in-exile issued a release in the first hours after the riot of March 14th alleging that martial law had been declared, that the police had fired into crowds, and that 100 had already dead. Is anyone in the Western media going to call them on these lies?)

Now, I understand you're here genuflecting, suggesting in a tone partly hurt and partly defensive, that you've done nothing wrong. That the truth *is* coming out (again, see Washington Post article as of this week), and that the Western media remains as fair as ever.

I don't think we can judge Western media purely on the basis of what is said, but also on *when* it is said. 1000 accurate reports on missing WMDs in Iraq after the invasion can not, will not balance the supplicant, sycophantic reports that dominated American media *before* the invasion. It has, unfortunately, become accepted "fact" amongst many Western readers that March 14th was indeed just another Tiananmen; that peaceful protesters were killed by heavily armed troops firing indiscrimnantly into crowds; that Beijing has again committed murder upon her own citizens.

The Western media might be able to find a convenient intellectual fig leaf on this issue... I personally don't doubt that it will eventually (perhaps buried on the 5th or 6th pages of the Friday paper) discover the truth of 3/14. But until it makes an active effort to wipe away the false impression it's already delivered to the vast majority of its readers, then the accusations of "bias" in result (if not in intent) rings very true to my ears.

Martin S.:

Wei,

4000 Chinese protestors in Paris. I don't doubt it, but can you share where you got your information from?

Far more important, you don't state why this alleged failure to cover these protests constitutes part of the big "brain wash"?

If the press gave front page coverage to these protests, you could just as easily start slinging your bias charge. So why, if it your claims are true, is this "biased" coverage?

If the press failed to cover the protests at Duke University, for instance, you might accuse the Western media of partaking in yet more biased journalism. Luckily, because that coverage was unflattering, it can conveniently also be filed under the "bias" category.

My question: What is your yardstick for "biased" media coverage? Absent this definition, you can claim anything as "biased".
Is this elusive bias something you know when you see it? Or, is it possible that you have a hammer and everything looks like a nail?


I am a Cummy Thug:

Dear father Mao, praise you live for thousand years, you have thought us well, we shall go forth and battles against the foreign devils in their own land and turn their weapon of free press against themselves. We will win these battles to avenge our lost from other battles because the enemy is weak and sentimental and easily sway by double talk and propaganda. Father you are right, we will win this war, you have thought us well, these propaganda techniques has made us strong, we are living amount them, wearing the same cloth and learning their techniques and ways of making money. Have to confess, that we really like these decadent living, but don’t worry father, we will not straight our ways, we will never let those bastard peasants become rich again, their father were the landlord that stepped on us, once the peasants now the landlords, we know it took you years to turn those idiots fortune to us and we promise we will not flounder it under our care, we really starting to like this entitlement stuff, I guess its what the west call the silver spoon or something like that, we are not going to let anyone to jeopardize it and we will fight to the last propaganda bone fall off. You are not going to take away my Mercedes and Gucci without me biting your ear off you foreign dogs. Remember Vietnam? Just remember, we train them, don’t mess with us, and will help with Iran to stick a knife into your heart. And don’t help Taiwan or Tibet; we don’t want my servants to have any idea about possible freedom. We like dictatorship and we will crush anyone with dissent. Fear is our game, intimidation is our practice and propaganda is our way of life.

Back off or we’ll unleash all of our students in your land, it will be terror and you’ll be sorry!

Have a nice day!


jiaming:

When it comes to freedom and human rights, I think the wild animals have a lot more than we humans do. They are free to roar, howl, scream, moan and groan whenever and wherever they like. No police will knock on their doors for disturbing the peace. They are free to crap whenever and wherever they please. Nobody will come and arrest them. They are free to overrun whatever in their path. No one can tell them to stop or go around it. They can eat, drink and inhale whatever they fancy. No government will lock them up for ingesting something illegal. They can have sex anywhere they feel like it. No authority will throw them in jail for indecent acts. They can fight to the death for no reasons at all. No cops are going to break them up. They can even kill themselves at their own choosing. It is no crime in anybody's eyes.

Raoul's brother:

Yet again...we hear about CNN, along with the somewhat loaded characterizations of "fabrication" and "manipulation", which strongly suggest willfullness rather than incompetence.

Does CNN really represent "western media as a whole?" I don't think so. Even if you managed to dig up some ridiculous statements by FOX news or mistakes and/or negative statements from a couple of other mainstream media sources...your case does not hold up.

Clinging to a sense of victimhood has its benefits, though, so keep going.

Hoyeah:

Same stupid question you should ask yourself, do all American should have gun so they can shoot each other? Law is law, you have to respect it, China has their own Law, you have to respect it. Again, do not use your own freedom to impose into someone else. Same question, do you have enough freedom? I don't need an answers, it just something you all think about when you have little more better time. Question yourself first befor question someone else.

DC:

Western Media Fabrications regarding the Tibet Riots :
Fake Videotape used by CNN
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8697

On the day of the Lhasa Riots (March 14, 2008), there is evidence of media fabrication by CNN.

The videotape presented by CNN in its News Report on the 14th of March (1.00pm EST) was manipulated.

VIDEO: Tibet monks protest against Chinese rulers (CNN, March 14, 2008)

The report presented by CNN's Beijing Correspondent John Vause focussed on the Tibet protests in Gansu province and in the Tibetan capital Lhasa.

What was shown, however, was a videotape of the Tibet protest movement in India.

Viewers were led to believe that the protests were in China and that the Indian police shown in the videotape were Chinese cops.

At the outset of the report, a few still pictures were presented followed by a videotape showing police repressing and arresting demonstrators in what appeared to be a peaceful protest:

R.:

Understand?

Raoul:

Do people in China have access to "western media as a whole"? If they don't, how do they have ANY way to make this judgement?

Jack:

They did get a grip of fact that western media is not as truthful as they once believed. They are disppointed with wester media as a whole. It's not just about a media figure. Understand?

Raoul:

In light of China’s long's history of cultural accomplishments and remarkable economic resurgence, one marvels at its citizens’ fantastically brittle sense of pride. Does a “great civilization” go into convulsions over the remarks of a somewhat obscure foreign media figure? Citizens of China -- get a grip.

HOYeah:

Respect the rules and laws of other countries, do not impose your well into someone else; you will be never be satisfied because your standard, don't use your rules to judge someone else, be open mind it. You have your own problmes, China has it own problem, Let China and Chinese runs their own country. Do not read read one side of story. Your histories you believe in, might be just his stories, be care for, freedom? there is limit.

commentator:

this is what i'm afraid by watching those democrat presidential candidates.

daila lama = obama = hillary

some areas of their policy platform are pretty scary. America used to be a free world, but it's running fast on protectionist direction.

Jack:

Lots of China bashers here have never lived in China. Their knowledge of Tibet and rest of China is derived from sensationlized press in the west. Sometimes, I felt it's odd to call them China bashers. Bashers are normally saying things they believed that are not true. But some "China bashers" are saying what they really believed.

Ordinary Chinese don't get arrested for saying bad things about government's policies anymore and they don't get benefits from government for saying good things about government these days. China is not North Korea, or Cuba. When ordinary Chinese said Tibet is part of China is because they just know history of that area better than lots of "bashers" here.

They should go to China and see things with their own eyes, they should especially listened to those who made multiple trips to China in the last while since these people will tell you the poltical changes and everything else.

I disliked Chinese media when I was demonstrating at Tian An Men square almost twenty years ago. However, after having lived in the west for another 18 years, I found the media in the west is even worse. While Chinese media is making lots of progress in telling truth while I expect the media here will do even worse as China is rising.

Hong Weibing:

Did you see the posters: "Cafferty You Are Guilty"

Ah what joy. Cultural Revolution comes to the 21st Century is the USA.

All must understand there will be no negative news of China. No criticism of the Motherland.

At Duke she and her family will learn. The Motherland is everywhere.

Tian Xia

Somali:

What ARE the SIGNS that the west is losing its top position in the world?

Many!!

One of them is the EXESSIVE proganda and contrived anger white people are leveling at China. Why? Because China is apparently EXPANDING RAPIDLY its "sphere of TRADE." The west had a thing they called their "Sphere of Influence."

There you have it. China has a policy that favors TRADE. While the west has a policy that calls for INFLUENCING OTHERS!!!!!!

No one in this world today wants to be influenced in any way by the corrupt, war-like west. We, in AFRICA, like China's sphere of trade because the chinese seek to INFLUENCE NO ONE and steal NO one's resources!!!!!

And that's why the west will FALL and China will RISE, RISE, RISE, untill it soars above the west. That day is coming sooon!!!!!!!!

Irene_seeworld:

To Raoul's brother:

It's so hard, but I will still going on, with my poor English to tell the true voices of Chinese people. I just want to let my voice be heard. Hope it will be helpful.

Luckly I find it can write Chinese character here. And Chinese can make my expression more exactly. Can anybody read Chinese? That will be much helpful. And still I will try my poor English to express. Any misunderstanding or confusion, please bear with me. The language difference is really the trouble.

First, I was not so surprised by the fact of CNN's "bias" issue, or what you said "the open and unrestricted press". I was so surprised by the fact of the (average) US view on China and Chinese people. Please do not brush me off like "Chinese government not Chinese people". What YOU American truely think of we Chinese, we can read between the lines. Remember! Even our Chinese government makes up with we Chinese. Why you think of us so evil? Why? We are not the North Korea or USSR. Never! This acknowledge makes me so surprised. I think it's time for us to let you know WE CHINESE ARE NOT AS WHAT YOU AMERICAN THINK OF!!!! It's wrong! A huge mistake!
I even don't know how and when it happened. How can we Chinese still keep silent? It's time to let the world hear our voices!
In fact, if you ask someone who came to China nowadays(not long long age like 1949), you will find that we are easy going, a little shy to express ourselves. We are simple.

Second, we Chinese do have experienced an more unrestricted, more truly open media environment. That is Hongkong paparazzo.(A freelance photographer who doggedly pursues celebrities to take candid pictures and make news for sale to magazines and newspapers.)We take it easy as jokes. We do not think "Oh, this must be true." And the untruth report of paparazzo do hurt the human rights of the Stars. It's another matter. But now I mean if CNN is just like the paparazzo, we could take it easy, we could read with "the ingrained skepticism" toward this kind of paparazzo's report.

ARE YOUR CNN JUST AMERICAN PAPARAZZO???!!!!!
So please take serious!!!

The third, Still for Media! A little difficult for me! We take CNN serious Coz it's professional. The people can watch TV with "the ingrained skepticism", (I read your CNN report with "the ingrained skepticism", and I found it's all lies. we are not such kind of person.) but the skepticism is not for the Media. The media tell truth not the skepticism. If the media is unsure about one truth, WHY could the media tell the unsure truth confidently. If YOU don't know the fact, please keep silent!!!!!Because it's a HURT to the truth!!!!It's a culture difference. We keep silent when we are unsure. For we are responsible for what we said especially when it is important to the world. The government even most Chinese tend to be conservative. I think that may be the reason why Tibet 3/14 keeps no report until its order recoverd. Any unsure report from Chinese government will make the western full of rumour. It's just the thought of myself, and maybe the (average) mainland Chinese would think so. It's huge culture difference between us. I admire the open and unrestricted of your media, but I can understand our media tend to conservative. There is long way for our media, yet please do not let your media go too far, otherwise, it maybe become the paparazzo of you American.

The fourth, ......

to be continue tomorrow. It's late.


yours sincerely
Irene

JBE:

I'd LOVE to celibrate a china where the environment is cared for, where rule of law prevented farmers from having their land stolen by local party officials for highrise developments of chemical factories, and where "win-win" and "human dignity" replaced "cost of goods sold" as the most important consideration in business life.

If the Chinese people want us to celibrate their accomplishments they would be well advised to acknowledge the things that still need doing... like UNdoing the pollution China spews into the world. And START criticizing their communist party/government's institutionalized corruption, and other shortcomings.

We criticize and openly shame our government and politicians every minute of the day!

Chinese people with new success would be well advised to START listening to news produced outside of their media censor's reach. They would be well advised to get an internet connection that bounces of unmonitored servers so they can join the rest of the world... then they could understand why the rest of the world isn't happy about the Olympics.. for instance:

Why should I celibrate the "bird's nest stadium" -a beautiful building - When the 10,000 people were forcibly moved from their homes occupying the land it stands on? Their sad fate makes the Bird's Nest stadium UGLY to me.

Why should I celibrate Bejiing when it is the basically most polluted city on earth?

Why should I celibrate chinese industry's advances when they are powered by coal that is mined by SLAVES?

I don't hate China or the Chinese. I honor the long and rich culture of the chinese people. I honor the hard working, long suffering farmer. And the HONEST business person. China wants to be seen as a developed nation where technology has lifted a hundreds of millions from poverty, and great technological modernization has blossomed...

But it wants to pollute like it was still a developing nation 50 years ago. It wants us to ignore intellectual property theft. It wants us to ignore official government censorship of communist party crimes and millitary operations against chinese citizens and support of Sudan's evil government.

The other developed world - outside of China - hates the institutionalized hypocrisy of China. Chinese governemtn boasting while denying glaring and obvious problems, polluting, and stealing intellectual property, official communist government lying in the press and unfair manipulation/undervaluing of the Yuan, and the export of poisoned foods, medicine, and toys.

Why isn't my position a fair one to take?

Please tell me what I'm missing?

berry:

There is one and only one way to stop China: stop buyind what Jack Cafferty called "junk": toys, ipods, lcds, laptops, apparel, furniture, tennis shoes, and everything else made in China.

The Olympic Games are just that: games. China will continue to be a growing monster, with or without those games. But when Americans and Europeans stop buying chinese stuff...

Put your money where your mouth is.

Otherwise, you'd better shut up. Beginning with Jack Cafferty.

jiaming:

While the campaign is near success, there are still about 5 westerners on this planet who continue believe that there could be some Chinese who aren't evil. And Mr. Pomfret is one of them.

Give Me Free China:

Ahhh! The minions fangs are showing, sons of Mao, the Necrophilia monsters that craws out of the depth of hell wearing the skins of human calling themselves Chinese Communist Comrade. I don’t know what race to call you guys, but you are not Chinese. We are ashamed that we have allowed you monsters controlling our kingdom for nearly 60 years.

Mao and his minions tortured and killed more Chinese than the Japanese did in 8 years of WWII, the rich Chinese culture has been wiped clear and people now behave without shame. They live and speak lies like they breathe air. You demons need to be exterminated. Go back to hell where you belong and where your father Mao lives.

If you don’t take your government’s propaganda at face value, then why aren’t you complaining hard to change it? Ohh, that’s right, they throw you in jail!
So you’re complaining about free speech at places you can have free speech?
Very good, little “hairy” bastards. For you westerners, that would be “Mao” bastards.

Free China will be ours! Down with Communist Bastards!

Questions:

Why my posts can't get through here most of the time now? I got the message saying it is being reviewed by the blog owner and never heard from it again.

Wei:

If u wonder why the Chinese think western media is biased, look no further than the news reports about the pro-China rallies this weekend.
If you look through all the major news medias in the west, Wall street Journal, New York Times, Washington Post, BBC, Financial Times, CNN, etc, you will find reports about wide-spread anti-France protests in China during the weekend and probably the speculation that the Chinese government is losing nerve about these protests. What you won’t find is the much larger pro-China rallies throughout the western cities during the same weekend, in Paris, Manchester, London, Vienna, Los Anglos, Ann Arbor, Berlin …. While as 4000 people rallied at the Place de la Republique in Paris to support China, all we heard is 20 people protested outside French embassy in Beijing.
I guess it is just too inconvenient for the western media to report these rallies in the West.
No sane people here or in China can defend the Chinese news organizations. We all know they are nothing but the mouth piece of the Chinese government. We know it and the people in China know it. So no one in China takes their reports at the face values. With this awareness and with the internet, people in China do seek the other side of the story in addition to the government propaganda.
The question is: do people in the West realize they are duped by their news organizations? How often do you hear the other side of the story? Remember Al Jazeera? When it comes to Middle East, how many Americans watch Al Jazeera? Oh, wait, all the major US cable companies refused to carry it. Talking about brain wash.

To brave Jack Cafferty:

In China, when someone calls the government goons or thugs, if he's lucky enough not to get the death penalty, he would be spending the rest of his life in the slammer for subversion.

So from now on, u probably should be looking over your shoulder every now and then for goons or thugs.

我只想说西方急了!慌了!:

毛主席:一切反动派是纸老虎!

Mao said: All enemy are always paper tiger!

CallingNamesNetwork:

My apology to Jack Cafferty and CNN

I think Jack Cafferty is basically the same goon and thug he has been for the last 50 years. He behaved exactly like such a goon and thug on April 9 when he faked as a commentator during a junky show on poisonous CNN.

I am aware of concerns about my comments related to Jack Cafferty and CNN in the context of his foregone stupid mouth exercise and CNN’s circus shows, which I just made a moment ago.

I would like to clarify that it was not my intent to cause offense to Jack Cafferty and CNN, and would apologize to anyone who has interpreted the comments in this way.

I am a person that reports the news in an objective and balanced fashion. However, as part of my coverage I also employ myself as a commentator who provides robust opinions that generate debate.

On this occasion I was offering my strongly held opinion of Jack Cafferty and CNN, not the American people, not all US news organizations – a point I am clarifying immediately after I made the comments.

It should be noted that over many years, I have expressed critical comments on many people and many news organizations, including the American people and its leaders, and American news organizations and their managers.

CIA are good guys:

CIA never conspire. They are so honest that nobody has to watch on them.

qinshonghua@yahoo.com.cn:

i see the tibet riots 4

i v been touched asort of bureaucrant due to kind of problems with living,the figures they left to me almost were extremely repugnant and desented.....they all appearanced seemed high ranked and seldom look at u with equaltic eyelight except you could bribe them or you have higher rank statue than them.the persons i knew or friends who related directly with bureaucrant,when mentioned bureaucrants they fellows,often than not,involved eating,take things,block precedures,charge money from the people that had to connected to them,in order to ask for money......
while in the internal of bureaucracy, what they had done were indeed plunge into gamble, seduce women,colluded with businessnars,bribe superior authorities for futher interests.....

in fact most of them actually fairly low eduacated,with impolite,ignorance,mean,shameless like rascals......
so when they appearenced to representative of the country,they actually did their own class in stead of people's side in this system.

why should we allow these junk look down us and depress us while we are all birth equally humanbeing?

why do they live in a luxury while they didn't repspected us even exploited us ?

what qulifications they presented to us show that they deserved this privileges?

Anti-CNN:

Jack Cafferty is a goon and a thug, who is exercising his democratic right to call anyone a a goon and a thug.

CIA:

Yes, it is all a conspiracy. Please don't let on about Roswell...

LL:

The simple fact is that China is getting better and better everyday. But the US is stuck in a deep trouble. While the Chinese are willing to do hard work to improve their lives, the Americans just sit back hoping to make "smart" quick bucks. Jealous? Feel free to threw empty words like democracy and freedom if that makes you feel better. Also feel free to play the decade old games of slandering. While you guys are wasting time, China is moving further ahead.

Anonymous:

If this bashing suddenly stops after the Olympics, it will only reinforce the suspicion that it was all a conspiracy.

Jack Cafferty ia brave-man-to-speak-straight:

I agreed with peole that Mr. Jack Cafferty in CNN expressed the truth and only truth that has been concealed in China!
China is the real world problem! but not Jack Cafferty! This young man has believed in the truth and expressed with unbiased mind to show the terrible serious problems happening in communist China!
You all know! all communist nations none of them can be foung as a good nation! without murderous leaders or thugs or conspirators or world acknowledged criminals!

IF THE WORLD CAN DO THE RIGHT AND PROPER PROCESS TO ELIMINATE ALL WORLD CRIMINALS THEN ALL RULING THUGS IN COMMUNIST NATIONS MUST BE BROUGHT TO WORLD COURT OF JUSTICES TO HANG THEM ALL!
CHINA IS A COMMUNIST NATION THEN IT IS ALSO A LAND OF CRIMINALS WHO RUN THEIR COUNTRY AND IT IS LOGICAL AND CHINA IS NOT AN EXCEPTION!
PLS. THINK ABOUT THIS WORLD PROBLEM THAT ALL MANKIND HAVE TO BEAR FOR TOO LONG ESPECIALLY 1.3 BILLIONS CHINESE SERVING AS SLAVES FOR THE COMMUNIST REGIME IN CHINA!
In summary, the world doesn't condemn Jack but all condemn communist china only!

CANDOR:

So much stuff in here... I thought there's no freedom of speech in China.
Well, Jack Cafferty is telling the truth, sometimes the truth really hurts. We have to consider China nowadays has dominated the world's economy. By the way, China has no freedom of speech but "made in china" freely sneaking out everywhere around the world.
Nowadays. It seems like their defending their united ideology not freedom (i.e. Protest in France denouncing Tibetan Independence), this was horrible action. loud and clear "goons and thugs is referring to Chinese government. The system how its government handle its business. First, let me recall my memory, which, maybe helpful on this issue, probably we're not morons not to figure out. Over decade ago, Our beloved billionaires, maybe we can include other foreign investors, invested their resources, bringing technology, production, and all job opportunity out of from U.S. for CHEAP Labor. Now, China don't need them anymore they can just simply, go back to their homeland, because China now is capable of producing and investing at their own, great job in deed, In short, U.S now owed China, Foreign investors to include our beloved billionaires has been double-cross in the process. Just merely check the Trade deficit, We have more imports than Export, continues outsourcing US job opportunity. Just imagine how clever the thugs is. In fact, China can actually paralyze the US economy. I am currently unemployed and a victim of this "economic invasion is far worst than military". One more thing, I'm kind wonder why "made in China is cheap, are Chinese workers got paid fairly? or maybe, I don't know, if there's labor slavery going on that we don't know of. For goons and thugs you need to start covering up all the holes. Party is over.
ty = cHINA BASHING..

let-people-opinions-fly-high:

Please let people opinions and comments fly high!
That's the way it should be in a civilized society! that is impossible in China! the murderous and dictatorial nation full with devils and draculas!
Please let all people opinions will be posted here to let other can view and comments!
thks!
fight-for-the-right-thing

things to think:

This is the right time to raise a question to all world leaders, all politicians, all law-makers, policy-makers, entrepreneurs, industrialists, companies, conglomerates that have continued to do business with China
To all world leaders, politicians, law-makers, policy-makers and entrepreneurs:


Dear Sirs and Madams:
As you have seen in the everyday news and world events, you definitely see China has applied all sorts of brutalities and barbarous actions against several nations: from Germany, France, Tibet, UK, USA, Australia, to Asian, African nations and too many filthy facts and evidences to write down ! (1)
From Barbarous verbal accusations to physical violence and threats of all sorts that China has done to several nations and this is the reason why I pose a question to all of you as:

SHOULD THE ENTIRE CIVILIZED NATIONS INCLUDING THE G7 GROUP CONTINUE TO KEEP MOUTHS SHUTS, AND EYES AND EARS CLOSED WHILE SEEING THE COMMUNIST CHINA THAT HASRELENTLESSLY APPLIED VERBAL AND PHYSICAL VIOLENCE OF ALL SORTS TO CREATE HAVOC TO NUMEROUS NATIONS WORLDWIDE AND THESE FOLKS STILL HAVE A NAIVE BELIEF IN MIND AS TO CALMLY CONTINUE TO ALLOW YOUR NATIONS AND COMPANIES POURING ALL RESOURCES AS MORE MONEY, TECHNOLOGIES AND EFFORTS TO CHINA TO MAKE THIS NATION TO BECOME MORE DANGEROUSLY IN ALL ASPECTS, WHILE THIS NATION HAS SELF-PROVEN TO THE WORLD AS TO BE NO MORE AND NO LESS THAN A WILD BRUTAL, UNCIVILIZED AND DANGEROUS NATION IN ALL ASPECTS TO THE REST OF THE WORLD!
SHOULD THE ENTIRE WORLD STILL CONTINUE TO COMMIT A VERY DANGEROUS AND MINDLESS SELF-DESTRUCTIVE, SELF-DEFEATED MISTAKE AS TO CONTINUE TO FEED THIS DEVIL CHINA!!! IN ORDER TO ALLOW IT WILL CONTINUE TO UNLEASH MORE HARM TO THE WORLD COMMUNITIES?

don't cesor people opinions! it is only happen in china only!:

Ponfret!
Do not censor people anymore unless you still believe in communist life style happening in China as you do know!
A civilized world they do not censor wildly people opinions and only cesoring bad ugly opinions lake several posting here on the second from top here rigth now!
Don't do it it is not polite! and against the truth and freedom of expressing opinion of right people!
Stop it!!!

you should not censor like a communist chinese:

Ponfret:
You should stop censor wildly people opinion like in china they do now!
Stop it!

Raoul's Brother:

CFM,

That must be some strong weed you're smoking.

should-the-world-come-to-Olympic-2008-to-see-mad-chinese-unleashing-their-madness:

It is abouth time to think before hoping into airplane to Olympic-2008 will take place in Peking!
this is the time to observe the chinese to unleash their madness similar as when they come to destroy Japanese businesses and ambassy in China few years ago, when a Japanese leader wanted to visit a temple in his own nation and paying reapects to his ancestors as a civilized custom.

China and its citizens want the entire world to only choose thier chinese way! otherwise, the world will become their targets as to be unleased their very incivilized behaviour as usual!
In other words, these folks behave similar to the muslims who conducted riots, destructions and hatred when the muhammad was graphically described by some artists in the Europe to tell the naked truth in life!

THE QUESTION NOW MAY BE DESCRIBED AS: SHOULD THE WORLD COME TO CHINA TO SEE THE MADMEN IN CHINA AND TO SEE THE OLYMPIC-2008 AT THE SAME TIME FOR BEING SEEN TWO SPECTACULAR EVENTS AT THE SAME TIME? WILL ALL WORLD LEADERS DECIDE TO COME IN CHINA AND ENJOY CHINESE TRADITIONAL WAY OF BEHAVING?

CFM:


Raoul's brother, CNN has been making "blunders" for twenty years, are they doped all the time? You are wasting time. Google for CI A Media Control, or Operation Mockingbird.

Raoul's brother:

The current protests against what some see as "biased" Western media coverage of China are instructive. For the chasm in perspective between the (average) mainland Chinese and (average) US view on the "bias" issue likely points to a larger, systemic difference in the two societies.

Specifically, both sides fail to see the larger invisible assumptions that are attached to the concept of "media". For mainlanders, there seems to be an inability to see CNN's blunders as anything other than as part of a US state-backed grand conspiracy to keep China down. This shouldn't be surprising, given that, for well over a half-century, China has had zero experience with an unrestricted, truly open media environment. In the experience of most living mainlanders, the press and the state have always gone hand in hand.

The notion that there is no "controlling hand" behind the Western press seems hard for mainlanders to grasp, apparently.

Moreover, the ingrained skepticism of most US citizens toward powerful social institutions -- whether the state or the media -- is something that most Chinese protesters seem to miss. Upon reading a news report, or watching a CNN video clip, most viewers do not assume, "Oh, this must be true." Rather, CNN's report becomes a data point, for use in comparison with the plethora of media resources available. Through this open, unrestricted competition of ideas and reporting, something approaching "balanced media coverage" results.

Is there, at times, distortion and sensationalism in US reporting on China? For sure, as the almost monomaniacal critics of CNN point out. And China is not the only country, person, or issue to suffer from these occasional blunders. But -- and here is the point -- free, unrestricted debate does occur within US society, and within the press, allowing for a correction of these excesses.

It may be hard to believe, but there is no CNN-backed grand conspiracy to keep China down. What you are seeing is something new to you -- the operation of a truly free press. You might ask your own government for one some day.

heli xiansheng:


You may have heard of Jin Jing, the Chinese torch-bearing "hero" who proudly defended the olympic flame in France. It appears recently she has come out against the planned Carrefour boycott.

A week ago she was a national hero. Now she is a traitor:

http://xingfurj.blog.hexun.com/18367058_d.html

Translated comments:

"What kind of bird is Jin Jing. I just heard of here, now she dissapears, careful you don't die without a body"

"I fart on Jin Jing [Colloquial]. Speaking to help Carrefour? She is a traitor"

"If you are the real torch bearing Jin jing, please shut up.... I see you first lack a leg. Now you lack a brain"

____

Her crime? Arguing that a boycott against carrefour was not in Chinese interests because "Carrefour has many Chinese employees and a boycott would harm them"

Irene_seeworld:

About Chinese Media, I do not believe the Media somehow. I used to think highly of the western Media. They usually tell the truth. But now I think the truth is always behind the Media!!! Your Media CNN's comments make me so surprised, how can I believe the Media yet? There are always different positions and sides, different grounds and standpoints. Suppressing the media do exist in China, but we, the people, respect the truth.

Irene_seeworld::

Correction:
1.The difference between my grandpa and I shows the great improvement.
2.With job, with house, with family and children, the life is much happier than 1949.(when China was found in 1949.)

Irene_seeworld:

About the human rights, some Chinese do not care, like my father, my grandpa and that generation. But we youngs care, we like the society of Hongkong. It's with Chinese culture, and also with modern law and order. The cooperation between the Hongkong and the China mainland will create more lively economy and so do Taiwan. And if we are more open, we will learn more about the human rights. The difference between my grandpa and I shows the grear improvement.

The interesting is the two generation exist both. Sometimes one is right, sometimes the other. I have no idea how to explain the situation of my father's generation. They did not talk about human rights, but they lived satisfactory. With job, with house, with family and children, the life is much happier than 1994. So they do not care much about human right, they care more about the life. But they have now learnt to ensure their rights with law. I think it's another kinds of human rights.

So do WE Chinese have rights to ask for the justice report. At least YOUR CNN should report the angry of OUR Chinese. LET THE WORLD HEAR OUR VOICE! PLEASE RESPECT OUR NATION! WE ARE THE SAME WITH YOU!

Irene_seeworld:

And about Chinese government, it's a little difficult to explain. Most Chinese do not like the former president Jiang because of the Tiananmen Square crackdown of 1989 and the government bureaucrats. It's little difficult to explain, although bureaucrats still exist, it's history and reality, we came from a Dynasty, and we open to the world just for about 30 years. But the president Hu Jintao do much better in solving social problems. The 2008 is a difficult year for China, if Hu can solve the domestic problems such as Recent Price Rise in China, stock market and revaluation of the RMB, he will be much appreciated. I think a government can solve problems and keep the life peaceful. That is OK.

We are simple. It's simple life. Most American lifes are simple too, am I right?

Why do you turn sharply negative against China? (If the "hate" is not so exact, let's use "sharply negative". See, that's language difference.)How can you understand we the Chinese nation?

Anonymous:

Western reporters like to tar all Chinese with the same brush, by saying 'China did this or that ...', when they actually mean to say 'the Chinese commie hardliners did this or that ...'

Irene_seeworld:

To John Pomfret about the article

Too much comments here. Actually speaking, a lot of Chinese don't know so much English although we have OPEN to the world so many years. I can half understand this article and not sure if I have any misunderstanding. And the comments are so many that I think I have no time to read all. It takes we Chinese a lot of time and mind to read in English. And I think it is one of the problems, that is language difference.

How can we explain the whole Chinese culture and society to the westerners? And the modern Chinese society changes from time to time, even we Chinese could not make clear explanations of all the society problems in Chinese. How can we make YOU Westerner understand ALL? This is another problem, that is culture difference.

Can you try to understand our culture and our modern Chinese? It's not 1982' China when I was not born. It's 2008' China when I can write English here. I found a lot of comments from the western describing China as so evil country. I was so surprised. We are not North Korea, we are not USSR! We just like YOU American, live an peaceful life, working every days, doing shoppings, playing computer and seeing internet.

Tibet in my mind is just a beautiful place I am longing for. It's parts of China just like American India is parts of American culture. The culture of Lama is amazing and so are the Tibetan, with full of mystery. But the most important thing is that it is also parts of Chinese Culture. Tibetan and the Han people(most Chinese are belongs to Han people) are living together for thousands of years. There are differences but no opposites. We Han people are interesting in the amazing Tibet. And now touring in Tibet attracts thousands of Han people to go there. It's culture convergence. But the Tibet riots destroyed the peace. How can touring or culture communication develope in the riots? What the government doing now is making the life of Tibet peaceful as usual, then we can travel Tibet as usual. That is the ture around my life. Why YOU American keep blind to the ture life of Chinese?

Tenzin Samphel:

Hypocrisy Rules:

And it is very possible we will have our first black president! How wonderful is that.

For a moment, forget all the propaganda training and techniques you learned through your mandatory communism education and ask yourselves why is the world against you?

So why the world hates communist so much? Why don’t these “Racists” target their hatred towards the “Free” China, Taiwan? Or Singapore with large population of Chinese?

The Communist Gov. is shutting down all vital information trying to contain China's citizens' development to be the responsible and informed citizens that you should be.

You think the world is bulling you, but it is the bullies that run China that the world is protesting against. World don’t like beasts dressed in sheepskins.

Learn from your “Free” sisters and brothers from cross striate Taiwan. Stand up and fight for a good and responsible government that the world will admire and to regain your pride once again as the citizens of the Middle Kingdom.
===========================
What great words!! All Chinese should listen up:

Obama,obama,the son of a black and white,our president. Remind you Chinese,all blacks are going to be elite of this society.

You all are brainwashed here by Commie government, which is at best,like Pelosi said,a totalitarian Capitalist regime. How can you reason with us? You are totally wrong when you open your mouth because your argument is on the false information.

Our world citizen hate you,Chinese. Only those undemocratic countries help you in the torch relay like Argentine, Tanzanian, Pakistan, India, Tailand, Malaysia and etc.

We are so wise to keep NATO.We are going to fight around the world if there is any injustice. If you guys keep blind to our good suggestion,there is telling that we will help you like we are doing in Iraq.

Wise up,guys.

Judy Lin:

Judy Lin

Racism in America is not in dispute here. China, Korea and Japan are all racist countries. How easy do you think an African emigrant could find a regular job in Japan or China? Just hang around in China, there are racist comments all over the place, the Northerners don’t like people in Shanghai, and Shanghai treats others parts of Chinese citizens with discrimination apathy. So please, if this bothers you so much then, do something positive about it. Joint the politics and give Asian a greater voice, maybe one day, we’ll see an Asian female president, or maybe you can return to China and run that one without the thugs and bullies. So many of them are showing up here. It is just amazing how many bottom of the barrel scum that is putting in their two cents.

So for now, we are not focusing on the thugs in US, but the beast that’s lodged in the heart of China and sucking the life out of its people. Turning my brothers and sisters into lizards rather the sons of middle kingdom dragon of 5 thousand years.

thank god we have nukes:

i find some americans have face as thick as the great wall.
its population amounts to less 5% of the world's population but they think they represent "the whole world".
the country is the world's number 1 seller of weapons. it also has the world's biggest military budget. yet its politicians and tv networks viciously accusing china of doing the same things.
it invaded one sovereign country after another, killing countless innocent civilians, yet it's attacking china for her human rights record.

i thought you guys should have learned something from 911 but i am wrong.

lucky we have nukes, i think china needs to develop more mass destruction weapons, the more the better. we will not be the second USSR. dare you try splitting our country or undermining our economy, we'll certainly drag you down with us. let's go back to the stone age together. then numbers will rule.

JC:

Rauol's brother: That comment was for the people in the West, not for China. If you don't understand that, read my comments again please, before accusing others having a problem. Should we argue with each other back & forth to see who has a bigger problem? Please see my comment (1).

Judy Lin:

Hypocrisy Rules:

So why the world hates communist so much? Why don’t these “Racists” target their hatred towards the “Free” China, Taiwan? Or Singapore with large population of Chinese?

That is total bulls**t!

There is racism against all Asians, even in NYC. You cannot discount the Asian American experience. No one asks from where we are from, nor what our political affiliations are. You look at our faces and lump us all together; Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc. You actually will say that we all look alike to you.

Now how racist is that?

Hypocrisy Rules:

Chen have Niger Syndrome, and I have to say, at certain parts of US, racism still exist in full buff for any non-whites, others are veiled under PC-ism that is ubiquitously the US social practice of today. But as bad as it is, what is great about this country is that we are able to conjugate here in one of the most honorable paper web site to a heated debate.
And it is very possible we will have our first black president! How wonderful is that.
Can you go to any part of China and openly discuss or insult the hooligans that is running the country?...I guess that will be a big No No! Unless you like to be “Re-Educated” and endure the tortures that will make water-boarding like a spa visit.

For all your “lost generation of mainlander” -Irene_seeworld - and PLA zealots looking at this blog.

For a moment, forget all the propaganda training and techniques you learned through your mandatory communism education and ask yourselves why is the world against you?
For over twenty years the West and your brother and sisters around the world came in droves to invest in an unstable autocratic country with no guarantee in their investment. Is it simply the madness of the greed driven colonialist trying to take over a sickly China that the communist party been feeding you and your country for over 60 years?

So why the world hates communist so much? Why don’t these “Racists” target their hatred towards the “Free” China, Taiwan? Or Singapore with large population of Chinese?
We can give you so much lecture here, but the whole point of engagement towards China is curbing the Communist’s brutal and thuggish behaviors where most of the world’s peace loving population detest! And it is you the new generation of Chinese in mainland should be standing up once again and “PUSH HARD” for the reform that never come. The Communist Gov. is shutting down all vital information trying to contain China's citizens' development to be the responsible and informed citizens that you should be. Time and time again, they retrograded to their atrocious behaviors when ever there’s a danger of exposing their appalling practices and use the "Foreigner against us" arguments to incite nationalistic angers so the focus would be off of them, your focus! They know the rest of the world knows, its propaganda department’s paramount mission is keeping their citizen naive so communist party would keep their control on power.

You think the world is bulling you, but it is the bullies that run China that the world is protesting against. World don’t like beasts dressed in sheepskins.

Learn from your “Free” sisters and brothers from cross striate Taiwan. Stand up and fight for a good and responsible government that the world will admire and to regain your pride once again as the citizens of the Middle Kingdom.

gary:

Conrad, westerners have access to multiple sources of journalistic media. But I've found the content to be eggregiously lacking, and the motives for the writing to be sometimes one thing only: profit.

This has led to a lot of editorialistic writing, and was easily duped into not questioning the Iraq war 2003.

Luckily TIME, CNN, and the Washington Post have each had at least some deeper commentary on the reality of events in Tibet, based on foreign tourists and reporters on the ground during the riots...and they all happened to support at least part of China's official government story. But aside from that, most articles from even the above 3 outlets were mostly editorializing, and void of actual facts aside from conjecture based on China's past human rights difficulties.

There was the past, and then there is now. Believe it or not, China's government response in Tibet was a far cry from Tianneman Square. But there's no way you could know that given the obscure hold on the facts. This is in part China's own fault for not admitting enough reporters in the first place, but just because their own dog bit them in the ass doesn't mean you should fear the worst.

Tony:

China should take Tibetan grievance to heart and start to improve right for religion and respect Tibetan culture and way of living. China should also improve rich and poor gap and promote harmony between all ethnic.

However, China should NOT have any dialogs with Dalai Lama and his followers. DL and his followers are just proxy agent for forces that try to instabilize China.

California:

I'm bailing out of this forum. I don't mean to be insulting when I say that Chinese have got a few hurdles to negotiate before they'll be able to discourse intelligently with the West. First, they have got to give up thinking like victims. The West is not out to get you, China. The West does not want to keep China down. Secondly, Chinese have got to start acting responsibly. This means admitting error (or crimes) when they commit them. China is absolutely wrong when it denies freedoms to people in Tibet and elsewhere in Chinese controlled territories. When Chinese compare Tibetans to the American Indians whose cultures were obliterated in America, they betray knowledge of their crimes, but still won't admit them.
If China wants to be a player on the world stage, then it's got to start acting grown-up.
So long and good luck to the Chinese here.

Chen:

Conrad:

Well, the truth that there are scary couplets like Zhu Zhang and Chen truly does hurt.

Spoken like a chicken racist who is afraid to be upfront.

Raoul's brother:

If this level of discourse on "Westerners" passes for analysis in China...I'm sorry, you have bigger problems than I ever imagined.

********

"I'll take any average Chinese over any average westerners, over global geography & politics, just general knowledge, any day. Westerners only pay attention when they are threatened or things that just happened in their own backyard. You can call them ignorant or arrogant, but that's the way they are."

- JC

Raoul's brother:

If this level of discourse on "Westerners" passes for analysis in China...I'm sorry, you have bigger problems than I every imagined.

********

"I'll take any average Chinese over any average westerners, over global geography & politics, just general knowledge, any day. Westerners only pay attention when they are threatened or things that just happened in their own backyard. You can call them ignorant or arrogant, but that's the way they are."

- JC

JC:

Just a few thoughts:
1) Calm down guys, both sides. In my view, it's just a pointless argument when people are set in their opinions. Haven't you argue with your wife or kids before? The key is how to settle the problem.
2) For the westerners, it's their way of irresponsible reporting, ever since the Iraq war & 24 hr news channel started. I never watched CNN for their news; it's more like "entertain-news". Only on suddenly happened affairs like 9/11, Katrina, etc. They are good at that, second to none. Give them a break, you know how hard it is to attract viewers in a 24-hr format? The Tibet protesting affair is eye catching and a photo-op. ZD wisely use that to their advantage. So they reported it without thinking. I bet you 75% of the reporters don't even know clearly the Tibetan history. Believe me, some of the reporters are out to get the "evil" Chinese, but most don't have any wicked strategy: too naive and self-righteous - grew up in a protected environment.
3) For the Chinese government, use this incident to learn how to deal with the Western medias. Yes, the westerners are fearful of you. Anyone with a so-so intelligence knows you will be a formidable competitor. Never mind exporting, in building infrastructures, musics, sports, films, arts, businesses, horticulture, educations, cooking, militarily ...every facet of life. If you have a competitor like that, wouldn't you feel threatened too? We should feel good and proud. Why don't the western medias bash on Russia now? If everything fails, cannot respond positively to the western medias, just don't say anything, it will blow away in a few weeks. That's how the western culture has sadly become. Everything condensed into 5 minutes sound bites, few being alarmed. I'll take any average Chinese over any average westerners, over global geography & politics, just general knowledge, any day. Westerners only pay attention when they are threatened or things that just happened in their own backyard. You can call them ignorant or arrogant, but that's the way they are. So learn to deal with them. I think the Chinese Gov't way of dealing with western countries have been generally commendable - but not dealing w/ the medias. The medias sadistically honed in when they see people got hot and bothered. That's why the western politicians all have thick skins. Please don't be so touchy!
4) I also hold the media responsible for the general ignorance of the western populations in this global world. It's not just the "Rise of China", but the rise of the whole Asia & parts of Africa. You guys should report more on HK, Malaysia, Vietnam, Singapore...etc, with China being the engine that pull the Asian train. Before you know it, people everywhere won't listen to you anymore. The days of the colonial powers are looong over.
5) Lastly, if I were the Chinese gov't strategist, I would invite the Dalia Lama to the opening of the Olympic games as a guest to observe the greatest sporting event on earth. No politics though during the games. He said so himself he would like to come for the Olympics. If Dalia Lama decided to come, think of this "Wen & Dalia" show. The rating would go thru the roof, and would become the greatest game in Olympic history for sure. The politicians who wouldn't show up for the opening of the games, will have eggs on their collective faces. China will be the gracious host to the sporting event; Wen can charm as much as the Dalia Lama; demonstrations & disruptions of the games will be much less; and shut the world up by contacting the Dalia Lama; if Dalia Lama uses the world media to his advantage, and the west uses the Dalia Lama as a tool, then why not the Chinese? After all, Mao & the US approached each other by another sporting event. Why not now? If the Dalia Lama decides not to come, then the Chinese can say we offered an olive branch to no avail & shut the world up also. The western media never reported that negotiations were going on between Dalia Lama and the gov't during 1982 to 1987, during the period of the most liberal leader in the communist gov't. Obviously any negotiations now will be "doomed to fail" unless Tibetans change their attitudes. By inviting Dalia Lama to the opening of the games, China will have nothing to loose but lots of gains instead.

Recommended Reading:

It really sounds like some of you guys (Yingtong, this means you) would be into this: Mussolini, Doctrine of Fascism (1932)

Donald:

Look at this program by UK Channel 4 to see what's going on as China massacres, tortures and jails anyone who even thinks he has a brain in Tibet, East Turkestan, Mongolia, and the rest of its colonized nations:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7982410976871193492&q

the anti-chen:

"The fact that they feel that it is within their right to comment about us is all the evidence that we Chinese need to know about their hatred and racist opinions of us."

Is this what passes for deductive reasoning in China?

Conrad:

Well, the truth that there are scary couplets like Zhu Zhang and Chen truly does hurt.

Zhu Zhang:

Conrad:

Chen, man, you are one scary dude.

I agree with the Chen. I guess that the truth really hurts!

Donald:

Watch this program from Channel 4 in London:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7982410976871193492&q

mary:

90% of the wealthiest people in China belong to the Communist Party. Doesn't that tell you everything?

They've robbed the poor of China, who still drink river water full of PCBs as well as bathe and wash items in it. It's their only source of water. [reported by Nicholas Kristof, if i have his name right] These poor should be in on the billions of $ pocketed by the CCP--some kind of new communism? Absurd.

Meanwhile the CCP pays Chinese emigrants to protest in China's favor all over the globe, wherever they live. Actually the emigrants had to have $$$ to leave the country, so a good number of them are either CCP or related. Or else they're bonded into servitude/prostitution--how else could they afford the fare?

PRC air is brown and meanwhile Olympics visitors are supposed to breathe that and be surveillanced in their rooms. Will Bush's room have surveillance too?

Conrad:

Chen, man, you are one scary dude.

America is evil:

America is an evil country. It's better to be divided into 50 countries, so that its war-like people could fight among themselves, istead of selling weapons and starting wars everywhere.

Be Critical:

"People are leary about China now precisely because they should be leary about China. China is now becoming powerful enough that they can act unilaterally. And with 1/5th of the world's population, they have the mass to do it."

US has the military power of the rest of the world combined. It has been acting unilaterally all the time. I haven't seen anyone get critical to the US at the same intensity as what is going on against China.

China only want to mind her own business, catching up in economy and improve living standard of its population. There are still many people living in under developed regions inside the country. Have you ever seen China call for a sanction or embargo against any country? Have you ever seen China impose ideology to any other country, or incite an Color Revolution in any country? All China care is her own development and security.

Chen:

Don't waste your time trying to educate Westerners about China. The fact that they feel that it is within their right to comment about us is all the evidence that we Chinese need to know about their hatred and racist opinions of us.

For all of you who have never left China to visit the USA, please know that in the United States, and do not include the college experience because it is not the "real world", 90% of all Americans hate us, especially white Americans. Do not be surprised to be greeted with smiles, and then later stabbed with the largest kitchen knife in your back.

Ask any Asian person living in America--if they are willing to be straight--and they will tell you of the racial taunts as children, the snubs in social situations in high school, the Asian Fetish white/black/Hispanic males towards Asian women, non-promotions of Asians in the corporate world, etc.

It is well documented, and it is not a "China" thing, it is an anti-Asian thing

Judging others through your own cultural lens is prejudice by definition. We Chinese could give two flying fracks what you do on your lands; it has no effect on us. You need to do the same. Need you Chinese hating racists KKK wanabees still need to be reminded that there are only Asians indigenous to Asia?! Mind your own business and attend to your own problems!

California:

Brambles -- you are the first who has replied to any of my challenges. You say that you have original thoughts regarding Tibet. What are these thoughts, then?

Is your position different than that of other Chinese in this and other forums? I have heard but one position from Chinese participants -- viz, that China was, is, and always will be China's property.

Don't you think that the Tibetans themselves should have some say in deciding what happens to them? You can't deny that many of them are not satisfied with the current arrangement. I have the impression that the Han people care more about the minerals under Tibet than they do about the Tibetan people. As they care more about the strategic importance of Taiwan as geography than they do about the people on Taiwan, whom they are willing to obliterate with their missiles.

Speaking of assumptions -- you assume that I know nothing about China and have not been to China. Here you are wrong twice. You should not assume that familiarity with China will lead a person to agree with its government's policies.

Ivan Groznii:

People are leary about China now precisely because they should be leary about China. China is now becoming powerful enough that they can act unilaterally. And with 1/5th of the world's population, they have the mass to do it.

Conrad:

"Unbiased" equals what? Reporting exclusively on ice sculpture festivals and dragon boat races?

Western readers, like Chinese, have access to multiple sources of print and electronic media. Some seem to suffer from the delusion that CNN is the sole source of coverage on China in the West, or that Western audiences mindlessly absorb media images and stories without thought or concern for context.

An increasing number of Westerners actually speak and read Chinese, and have spent considerable periods of time in China. In fact, there is a shocking new technology called the "airplane", which can transport people to China and many Western people have actually availed themselves of this technology.

What some would refer to as Western media "brain wash" others would call a refusal to stay silent in the face of injustice.

yingtong:

A play that is disrupting the transmiting of Olympic torch has been put on for half a month,and surely,it got a great hit.
The play is about the US and its partners in crime (most of the western countries)start
activities to fan and mastermind violent demonstrations during the transmiting of the
Olympic torch.
What exactly are they up to?
They intends to lever China and desire to make it become another Russia.
But,it seems they failed to make the point clear that the peoples' Rupublic of China is
no longer the Qing Dynasty in 1840. WE CHINESE WILL NEVER GIVE IN TO ANY OF THEM.
We Chinese will let people throughout the world see how we blow them out of water.
We will make them acknowledge that we are magnificent creations capable of the greatest
accomplishments. We are one of a kind.Never before in the history of human existence and
never again will there be another one.
WE have the purpose,the mission and with that a responsibility to fulfill those"revolution".

Be Critical:


"Does it strike anyone as bizarre that the Chinese citizens who demand "unbiased" news coverage from the West fail to demand the same from their own government-controlled press? This situation seems insane."

The concern is for the Americans. If you don't think yourself deserve unbiased news about China from your media, then enjoy the brain wash.

As for the Chinese, they used to listen to Voice of America with great interest. But that day has long gone. The Chinese state media was never attractive, but this is internet age, people has many ways to exchange information.

not undeserved:
Raoul:

Does it strike anyone as bizarre that the Chinese citizens who demand "unbiased" news coverage from the West fail to demand the same from their own government-controlled press? This situation seems insane.

Not Impressed:

Here is the trick by the hawks associated with the defense industry:

Provoke the Chinese by bombing their Embassy in Belgrade, by sending reconnaissance aircraft close to their border, and by sending aircraft carrier fleets to Taiwan Strait.

Once the Chinese start to address their ability to counter these provocations, the hawks found their evidence for the "China Threat".

Not Impressed:

Referring to China as enemy is nothing new. It has been a popular view in Washington DC, a place with a high concentration of defense contractors sucking public money through the Pentagon, for a long time.

Former US Secretary of State James Baker once said "If you are looking for an enemy, you will find one".

Jeff:

Hitler told the world what he hoped to accomplish and the world ignored him. As a result millions upon millions died. The Chinese military has repeatedly produced position papers that report that it is preparing to wageand and to win a war against the United States. We should take them seriously and realize that China is an eneny of this country and act accordingly. Unfortunately, there is money to be make and Americans will ignore this painful reality until it it too late. Marx and Lenin were right and the west will destroy itself.

CANDOR:

I totally agreed with this article. I'm glad the're somebody out there like Jack Cafferty - brave enough to voice out what he believes is right to say. Pres. Bush has been very busy securing US and other country against terrorism for almost a decade now. We forgot the economy -
the questions how we gonna fix it, where's the job opportunity? where's the production and technology? what about the trade deficit. Is there a balance of trade agreement? I think it will take many years.... to fix this problem. I can't imagine how much more pain for the third world countries to have these problem as well. I notice lately that we are the biggest consumer, retailer, merchandiser, keeper, buyer of all "junk". Production wise none.

CANDOR:

I totally agreed with this article. I'm glad the're somebody out there like Jack Cafferty - brave enough to voice out what he believes is right to say. Pres. Bush has been very busy securing US and other country against terrorism for almost a decade now. We forgot the economy -
the questions how we gonna fix it, where's the job opportunity? where's the production and technology? what about the trade deficit. Is there a balance of trade agreement? I think it will take many years.... to fix this problem. I can't imagine how much more pain for the third world countries to have these problem as well. I notice lately that we are the biggest consumer, retailer, merchandiser, keeper, buyer of all "junk". Production wise none.

S Livingston :

I am not the S Livingston who posted below although I do find it strange that the only proper name among a sea of aliases happens to be my own. But as (another?) S Livingston with a strong connection to China I wanted to address his contention that nationalistic grad students living in America will never respect our “values”.

I don’t particularly agree with my namesake’s remarks, but he does bring up a good issue; namely, why have we, as Americans, not been able to reach these exchange students living in our country with the idea that our values or beliefs are worth emulating? When we invite a foreign student to our country we should hope that they would come away from the experience with a respect and deepened understanding of what makes America great. As it relates to China specifically, why our values- free speech, the right to assemble, right to vote, rule of law- are worthy of emulation. I’m sure we make that point to a great many students who come here, but it is also possible that our society in its excess is turning off those we seek to inspire.

I do not mean to take away from our right to watch crass TV or spend our college years blackout drunk but it might be time for us to step back and question how our society looks to the outsider who come here. So when the other S Livingston below speaks of the Chinese rejecting our values, I would only stress that we can not teach that which we don’t value ourselves.

Now if you’ll excuse me another episode of MILF Island is on…

Raoul:

I have a solution to this whole misunderstanding: if people in China are so upset about biased Western media coverage, they should demand that their government allow for a free and independent press. Problem solved?

kaolx:

One of the difference's I've noticed between news in China and the US is that in the latter, negative stories drive the broadcast. There appears to be little market for feel-good stories (outside maybe the three minute end of the local newscast). So western media coverage of china is not so much biased towards China as it is biased towards sensationalism. I think most people in the US understand this but for Chinese harboring a victim mentality from the West, there's not that same cultural understanding and so such broadcasts become yet another example of western desires to suffocate China.

Oscar De La Maiye:

One cannot blame China, really. Given the chance, what country wouldn't take advantage of the laughably naive world view that says all you need is a free market to fix a broken political system. In many ways, China has a far more free market than any other nation on earth, but their mastery of the nationalist propaganda has nullified any ability for the market alone to change the attitudes of the people.

Message to Chinese people:

You ask why Americans "hate you."

First, what you don't understand is that trade with your country has cost millions of jobs and lowered wages in America. Is that your fault?

No, I blame American leaders, but it is natural that some Americans put some of the blame on China.

Second, you lend money to American government for the purpose of funding a war in Iraq that your leaders know (and you know)is weakening America. The fact is that the American people would not pay for this war themselves, but your government is lending the money making it possible. Why would your government do that, except to weaken this great Republic?

Third, many of you are in our colleges, with scholarships (not your fault, I know) paid by American colleges. The problem is that many Americans can't afford college (remember, we are not socialist), and so many strike out against your people because you are getting benefits that they believe should go to Americans. Is that your fault? No, but you should understand it.

Americans do not personally approve of your leaders. Nothing can change that. But most Americans concede your leaders look out for your country and your people.

In America, our leaders look out for the wealthy class and oppress those who work for a living. Now, we know our standard of living is high. We can thank FDR (Franklin D. Roosevelt) and the union organizing during the 1930's, 40's and 50's for that. But since the Reagan era, wages for Americans have been dropping, and some people blame China when they should blame the anti-American economic policies of their leaders.

For example, would China support free trade if it caused a trade deficit with the USA as we are suffering? Would they? I kind of doubt it.

So, while I don't blame Chinese for being pro-China, I do want you to know that many Americans have suffered due to policies enacted by American leaders that have benefited China at the expense of the American worker. Is that your fault? No, but you can understand how many would blame China, can't you?

Peter:

Be Critical,

While your comments appear well-intentioned, I question whether you may distort media comments regarding China within the US media. I say this, given your comment: "Jack Cafferty @ CNN 'Situation Room' who called Chinese 'goons and thugs' in the program".

I read the transcript of Cafferty's comments and it is pretty obvious that he is referring to the Chinese government -- not the Chinese people. Either you are are willfully misinterpreting his comments, your English skills are a little lacking (not a dig, just a possiblity), or you are blinded by your search for what you believe is "Cultural Revolution" style misinformation regarding China.

Criticism doesn't need to be rooted in some "Grand Conspiracy".

Journalists covering China may indeed be drawn to the unsavory, the corrupt. But this is what journalists do everywhere! Do you request special dispensation for China? Or do you think Western journalists have formed a cabal to provide only negative coverage of the mainland?

More likely, the Chinese government's pathological need to control information -- to monitor journalists and impede their work -- contributes to consistent negative reporting. Have you considered this?

Finally, I would be happy to get my news from mainland Chinese news outlets -- except that the news is under strict state control. Is this what you consider "unbiased" news coverage of China?

California:

From the BBC:
"Hundreds gather in Tibet protest
Protest outside BBC Manchester
The protesters are targeting the BBC and other media organisations

Hundreds of Chinese students have gathered in Manchester and London to protest at the Western media's portrayal of the Free Tibet movement."

Do these Chinese students see the irony? They can demonstrate in England as foreigners, without fear of being arrested or of having their visas revoked, while in China pro-Tibet demonstrations are not permitted. Chinese students in England can, in effect, demonstrate against freedom of the press. Western law guarantees their freedom of speech to do so.

Be Critical:

PETER, I can take your words as candid and well intended criticism. But it is undeniable that American newsroom thugs, such as Jack Cafferty @ CNN "Situation Room" who called Chinese "goons and thugs" in the program, has been tirelessly spreading hatred and lies toward China for the past 20 years.

I came to this country 15 years ago with great admires to the concept of honest unbiased news media. Now I realize such honesty and objectivity is only limited to US domestic affairs. Because that is the only area American people can truly exercise their intolerance to bias and fabrications in the media.

China new report in this country is a totally different game. The media basically has an unchecked free ride. They can inject ill-founded opinions into news report at will, often to serve the government or special group interests. In recent reports they went so far as to use photos shot in India and Nepal as evidence of Chinese police beat monks.

China news you hear in this country is very problematic. Most of the time, they can be called news only in the technical sense, meaning not to mess up at the event level. The analysis of the events often remind me the days during the Cultural Revolution. These are often reduced to propagandas that a Chinese can find very little connection to what is really going on in China.

I respect people who is critical of China with good intentions. The only thing I am asking is to be careful about the bases of your opinion. Especially so if your opinion is formed largely on what you hear from western news outlets.

sursum:

This China bashing is stupid. I have mainland Chinese immigrant neighbours who are mystified and hurt by the pro-Tibet, anti-Chinese media witch hunts. So am I. Recently 30 Tibetans demonstrated in front of the Chinese consulate and was media covered, while the the 10,000 who were pro-China demonstrating on Parliament Hill in Ottawa were ignored! Tibet, being part of China for 800 years where political power lay with Peiking (as we called it) but things spiritual laying with the Dalai Lama, was wrenched from a weakened China by British Imperialism in 1915 who fostered an "independence" movement to further Britain's owants in that part of the world. This caused the Tibetans to slide further into the mire of serfdom where the wants of the monastaries were deemed the top priority by a total theocracy. In 1950 China returned with schools, roads, commerce and medical care and are now accepted by the average Tibetan with no malice. Hell, the Dalai Lama doesnt want a seperate State, why does CNN? It was the monks who set fire to shops and killed Chinese nationals and will not give up their perks, not the other way around. Does anyone remember the Chicago Democratic Convention of 1968, Kent State, Watts, or Detroit at all? Talk about over the top crowd control! We were one of the first countries to recognize China after the Mao ousted Chaing and a Canadian was and is, revered for the lives he saved during China's terrible strife. His name was Dr.Norman Bethune whose home in Gravenhurst, Ontario is still visited as a "shrine" by Chinese Nationals who are thankful of his implementaion of basic medical practices which saved thousands of sick and wounded soldiers, after doing the same thing for the anti-Franco forces in Spain. He lost his own life in the process. I wish the anti-Chinese lobby would just read some damn history!

pragmatic:

Sorry, but if "Chinese values" (whatever those are) validate the suppression of critical *internal* views in the name of "respect" and "order" then so be it. Its your country.

But guess what? You can no more export that point of view to the rest of the world than the neo-cons here in the U.S. can (legitimately) export their vision of the democratic state to the Middle East. You can both try, and you can both be rightfully criticized for it.

The rest of the world owes the PRC no more respect than it owes the U.S. All nationalists everywhere should just get over themselves.

Tibet truth :

Recommends a website. www.anti-cnn.com
The fact will show all .

California:

Who needs to bash China when the Chinese do it so well themselves?
The Chinese commit public-relations harakiri:

NYTimes
China Said to Arrest 100 Protesting Monks
By ANDREW JACOBS
As many as 100 Tibetans were arrested in northwest China on Thursday after they took part in a demonstration to protest the earlier detention of monks from a nearby monastery.

NYTimes
Zimbabwe Arms Shipped by China Spark an Uproar
By Celian W. Dugger
JOHANNESBURG — A Chinese ship loaded with armaments for Zimbabwe steamed into the port of Durban this week and set off a political firefight, putting newfound pressure on South Africa — and now China — to reduce support for Zimbabwe’s government as it cracks down on its rivals after a disputed election.

Berlingske Tidende (Denmark)
Kineserne på gaden mod Frankrig og frit Tibet
Kinesisk stats-tv viste billeder af en stor menneskemængde, som marcherede gennem Wuhan med skilte, hvis budskaber lød: "Bekæmp et uafhængigt Tibet, støt De Olympiske Lege!" og "Boykot franske varer".
[Chinese in the streets against France and Free Tibet
Chinese state TV showed pictures of a large crowd that marched through Wuhan with signs whose message proclaimed, "Oppose an independent Tibet; support the Olympic Games!" and "Bocott French goods."]

NYTimes
Chinese Protest Tibet Independence
By REUTERS
There were similar protests in the southeastern city of Hefei and the southwestern city of Kunming, with groups gathered outside branches of the French supermarket chain Carrefour.

El País (Spain)
Los chinos desatan su ira contra Carrefour
AGENCIAS
Manifestaciones contra empresas e instituciones francesas en varias ciudades de China.
[The Chinese unleash their anger on Carrefour
Demonstrations against French businesses and institutions in various cities in China.]

AFP
China imposes new visa restrictions
HONG KONG (AFP) — China has imposed further curbs on visitors, just weeks after it stopped issuing multiple-entry visas, Hong Kong travel agents said Friday, sparking concern among the business community.

"You now need a copy of your travel ticket both in and out of the country and a hotel voucher before they accept a visa application. Without that they will reject it," said Daryl Bending, a travel consultant with Concorde Travel.

I am a Chinese Qin Huang Dao City cyber acquaintance:

I am sorry, my English is not good, using translation software.
First of all, I expressed disappointment on this website.Because there is no Stay message function.
Recently ,On China's news seemed to be a concern.
I see a lot through the Internet on China's western news media.
Specially about human rights in Chinese and news Chinese threat theory.
I want saying:
Many by no means fair .Your media China described the same as Sittler. You were completely mistaken .We love peace, and has struggled for this reason for several thousand years.
The fact has the persuasive power compared to the debate
I suggested I hoped that you can arrive at China personally.
The fact will show all.
The translation software is not easy to use, has many mistakes.
I regretted that has not studied English diligently In school .

Peter:

Criticism does not equal "hating" -- this seems to be a revolutionary concept to many. For instance, a commentator here previously excoriated the US for its policies toward immigrants from Mexico. Does this person "hate" the U.S.? I don't think so. He is pointing to what he perceives as injustice.

Yet any criticism of China leads people to flip-out and accuse the US of "hating" China. Strangely, this inability to accept open, unrestricted criticism seems to mirror the Chinese state's behavior toward its own citizens. So maybe it is obvious where this mindset came from.

Another revolutionary notion: perhaps negative and at times innacurate Western media coverage of events in China are, in part, at least, fueled by the Chinese government constantly hectoring and obstructing the work of journalists. Is this possible? You expect clear, unbiased journalism on sensitive issues such as Tibet, yet the mainland government does its best to prevent this.

A little self-reflection would help.

my own alter-ego:

Hmm,

I am not sure if there is another S. Livingston involved with China to the extent I am, but as someone who has spent the last few weeks discussing this issue with my Chinese friends here and abroad, I would be disappointed if my identity were usurped to post comments like those accredited to me above.

While I have written about nationalistic grad students in this country, my writings have sought to point out that Chinese students are right to seize on the undoubtedly biased recent reporting but that doing so at the expense of the more balanced western reporting is just as harmful as, say, CNN focusing on tibet protestors over pro-Chinese counter-demonstrators.

Second, I have argued that the extent and language of the Chines backlash is ultimately counter-productive (though I support their overall right to question the West's assumptions). That what I fear might happen is a vicious cycle wherein Western media bias begats extreme Chinese reaction leading to more bias/suspicion and further extreme reaction.

I am not saying China has no right to question the West on it's human rights accusation or the activities of the media. But the form some of the backlash has taken is not the type that leads to dialogue, merely mutual denunciation. And both our cultures can do better than that.

Anyway, the other S. Livingston is welcome to his or her views, these are mine.

S. Livingston

Irene_seeworld:

We are the same as YOU American.

We have different culture and different language but we are the same. We are now in Chinese mainland, living and working peacefully, and kindly welcome all the friends overseas to China to see the "bird's net" of Olympic Beijing. We DO NOT aggress any of YOU American or westerners. WHY DO YOU HATE US SO MUCH!!!

This is the message we Chinese can read between the lines from your Media and YOUR CNN!

WHY???!!!

I am posting here to let my voice be heard. It's not from the governmnet but from the people. Have you see the message from MSN--LOVE CHINA? This is the message WE Chinese want all of the world to see it. It's culture and language difference between us. We can't make all of you understand everything about China. We just can let YOU know that we LOVE CHINA.

PLEASE DO NOT HURT THE FEELING OF ALL CHINESE!!!
WE ARE THE SAME!
CAN YOU AMERICAN ALLOW ANY NATION TO DO THIS?
NO!!!!

It's not brainwashed. The message came from the internet, from the e-mail, from the News, not from the government or the offical. And it makes the whole nation angry.

WHY YOU CAN ONLY HEAR THE VOICES FROM TIBET DALAI LAMA? CAN YOU HEAR THE VOICES FROM ALL CHINESE? CAN YOU?!

If you can't, if the Media keep blind to Chinese people's voice, WE will keep going...

Remember the song of last Olympic in Greek:
Pass the flame
Unit the world
Let our voice be heard
Why you don't understand? What we are doing now is open to the world, let our voice be heard. It's not a threat but a move-on. To the unknown world. Why you don't want to have a try?!

qinshonghua@yahoo.com.cn:

i see the tibet riots 4

i v been touched asort of bureaucrant due to kind of problems with living,the figures they left to me almost were extremely repugnant and desented.....they all appearanced seemed high ranked and seldom look at u with equaltic eyelight except you could bribe them or you have higher rank statue than them.the persons i knew or friends who related directly with bureaucrant,when mentioned bureaucrants they fellows,often than not,involved eating,take things,block precedures,charge money from the people that had to connected to them,in order to ask for money......
while in the internal of bureaucracy, what they had done were indeed plunge into gamble, seduce women,colluded with businessnars,bribe superior authorities for futher interests.....

in fact most of them actually fairly low eduacated,with impolite,ignorance,mean,shameless like rascals......
so when they appearenced to representative of the country,they actually did their own class in stead of people's side in this system.

why should we allow these junk look down us and depress us while we are all birth equally humanbeing?

why do they live in a luxury while they didn't repspected us even exploited us ?

what qulifications they presented to us show that they deserved this privileges?

ting_m_1999:

China bashing is not back but has been going on ever since, only in various form, from the Western colonial times. It indicates the inner sickness of the Western culture that cannot be tempered by their love-forgiving Christian religion. Or the loving-forgiving religion encourages their easy excuse for their guilt to bash other countries. It is their culture as evidenced by their continuous transgressions around the world under the various banners of pretenses. They don't have self-guilt feeling because the love-forgiving Christian religion had eliminated that. They are the predators. Predators know only predation.

Some American Guy:


Ya know, I flame the USA for prison abuse(S) in Iraq, not just the ones we did, but the ones we let the Iraqi's get away with too.

I rail about Gitmo, and the ridiculous legal circus that the Bush administration has bumbled the country into both onshore with nitwits like Padilla, and other ones like the guys in Florida who've now got 2 straight mistrials going on...

And the list goes on. I complain about pollution, I complain about American intolerance whenever I see it. In short, I look for areas that outrage, offend, or even just concern me to speak out about with my country.

China gets no slack from me, they'd have long ago shot me for the sort of things I say about my own government were I to say them about theirs. I *know* they would have shot me long ago were I some Chinese citizen having said the things I have said about their government.

Americans are taught it's a citizens duty to criticize their own government. We do it with great abandon, and often with conflict. Rupert Murdoch gets rich of feeding the worst of it in the USA in fact. In China, you're taught you'll go to jail if you criticize the party or the government. Their lack of freedom is a major difference, their lack of education of the difference is profound.

They need to do better than they are. It's not fair to blame the average Chinese person, and I don't do that. Most people there are decent folks who Americans get along with just fine. Their government though has some big issues. It has structural problems in that there's a lack of representative democracy inside of the structure itself. Coupled with "one party" and a lot of the benefits of criticism and change get badly muted.

I don't know how they can fix that stuff, I think they want to do better, but I think they need to move faster with engagement of the people and structural measures that promote smart change.

They also have problems that are just unenviable. Too many people still, too much pollution still, too little safety in too many work sectors, too little legal protections, too little rights and freedoms (like free movement as a very basic one other than speech), the list goes on.

China needs to understand they can't have what they want by acting the way they do. I don't know that the west is all that hot at offering solutions, but the criticism is not unfounded at all.

The government of China is not our friend. They aren't even a good business partner.

They're a pretty crappy vendor too. They certainly don't seem to care about the whole concept of 'the customer is always right'. We can always take our commerce elsewhere, and I'd be happy to see it happen personally.

Ed:

To FF

I noticed your opinions after I wrote the previous comments. I will at least commend you seem to try to be more logical, than some of the persons whose extremely narrow-minded "perspective" is so typical of what some people write in blogs on the internet, especially about the current political campaign.

However, as far as I know, the United States does not spend over one hundred billion dollars a year on aide to developing nations. Where did you come up with these figures? I would be somewhat surprised if the total is more than thirty billion out of a budget of nearly three trillion dollars.

Texas was already an independent nation before the Mexican-American war began. Texas was annexed by the United States about nine years after Texas became independent. President Polk expected Mexico to sell California to the United States. When Mexico refused, he was ready to provoke or declare war to win California and other land from Mexico.

The United States and Mexican governments disagreed about which river in Texas was the boundary between the two countries. President Polk ordered United States troops into the disputed area, to provoke a war. This is well documented by American historians and was commented upon by many northern Americans opposed to the war, including a single term Representative from Illinois, who later became, in my opinion, our best President.

Whether certain policies or actions were imperialism, aggression or colonialism is largely unimportant. They were all wrong then and would be considered wrong today by most countries.

Since as Jeffrey Sachs and many other humanitarians note, two million or more persons, mostly children, needlessly die each year, obviously international aid is far from adequate. The "Economist" magazine, which primarily promotes pro-business policies on a global basis, conceded in an article last year about how goals set by the United Nations, I believe, in 2000 will not be met
in most countries, especially in Africa. This is clearly one of the most important moral and humantarian issues in the world.

Ed:


I believe Livingston wrote about nationalistic Chinese graduate students in this country. Could you please define "our national identity and values?"

There seem to be, as far as I can discern, very few shared values among Americans, other than perhaps arguably certain values widely shared among people in most countries. Given the diversity in political opinions, religions, ethical values, cultural levels, in this country I think it would not be easy to come up with a clear consensus about shared values, other than perhaps essentially empty cliches.

Are you also suggesting American students studying abroad, many of whom are also certalnly very nationalistic and patriotic about the United States should be less nationalistic to "fit in" with people in other countries? I certainly hope this is not what you are saying.

A supposedly free country should value diversity in people, including their opinions and outlooks. After all, isn't this one of the Jeffersonian ideals that many Americans share? Unfortunately some Americans, especially from certain right wing fundamentalist groups, do not support diversity and seek to impose their ideological perspective upon everyone else.

(l) China:

If the West insist on treating China as an enemy, we'll try to be a good one.

ff:

"My comments advocating aid to needy countries to save at least a million human beings a year and the return of looted works of art, were directly primarily toward Europeans, who had the largest colonial empires, as well as longest imperialist misadventures."

My impression is that there are not many Europeans reading this thread. Also, the United States gives well over $100 Billion per year in aid to developing countries, and Europe almost as much again, facts which seem to be missing from your argument. There may well be better, more efficient ways to distribute said aid, but if payments to developing countries atone for the sins of colonialism, we've already accumulated Trillions of dollars of forgiveness.

"However, the United States waged an imperialist, unprovoked war against Mexico, which lost about one-third of its territory."

That's a pretty reductive, distorted interpretation of the Mexican-American war. For one thing, Mexico was, at the time, itself a colonial empire. It was ruled by an emperor, and the territory in question consisted of unsettled, sparsely-inhabited colonies they inherited from the Spanish Empire, which they intended to colonize themselves. What set the war off was Texas, about the only large population in the Mexican colonies, happened to be populated by English speakers who didn't like being a colony of the Mexican Empire and wanted their independence. So to paint Mexico, a colonial empire that rejected numerous overtures for peaceful, profitable recognition of the national aspirations of the actual inhabitants of the Mexican colonies, as a victim of American empire, is pretty far off.

"Colonies included, as has been mentioned by at least one other participant, Philippines, Guam and Puerto Rico. "

No, just the Phillippines. Guam and Puerto Rico are/were not colonies, unless you redefine the world "colony" to mean "any territory that is not a state."

"Imperialism also included [...]"

Imperialism is not the same thing as empire, and so remedies based on conflating the two are not productive. Imperialism is a type of policy, and an empire is a type of polity.

"Foreign occupying forces, including some Americans, looted cultural treasures from China following the defeat of the Boxer rebellion. Some of the looted artifacts included Buddhist works of art. "

If you say so. I'm all for returning looted artifacts, but where are these particular ones? There's lots of famous examples in Europe: the Elgin Marbles, or the Obelisk at the Place de la Concorde, but what are the foreign treasures in American possession? Also, it's important to distinguish looting done by individual people, and looting done by actual states.

"Whether one considers the removal, massacres, killing off of nearly all the buffalo and spread of diseases to the native Americans as imperialism, these actions certainly constituted aggression,"

The important distinction is not between imperialism and aggression, but between imperialism and empire. If nations are going to start making reparations for aggression, the lists of countries that should give and receive compensation are going to get a lot bigger and murkier. I.e., it's certainly NOT the case that the West and Japan are the only places that have unfortunate instances of aggression in their histories.

"Native Americans for many decades have been the worst off group in this country, with the highest rates of poverty, unemployment, alcoholism, etc. These are current problems, not just issues from a hundred years ago. "

Yes, and they're problems we're currently doing something about. They've asserted their sovereign rights to the natural resources on their lands, and to open casinos, and are using the revenue streams to improve education and other services, and build diversified economies. Anyway, if having a population of 1% of the total that is left behind economically makes a country evil, your list of evil countries includes... well.. all of them.

Peter:

Boring,

Thanks for your incisive commentary. And congratulations! 15 minutes of sustained concentration must be a personal best for you.

Francis:

It would be nice to free Tibet. Boycotting the Olympics should be just one of the many ways we can try to help make that happen. We could boycott viewing the games as well. That would really get attention because that means money.

Boring:

I just wasted 15 minutes reading through pointless comments on this site. Some of the people posted multiple comments needs to get a life or maybe you guys are just bunch freaks with too much free time.

Mike Brooks:

I see where you blocked my post in opposition to free trade, of giving China the ability of wreck us and our economy. Since the latest reports show China blocking foreign visas to visitors of all sorts, even businessmen, exposing it as the dictatorship it is, I figure you are copying them by practicing censorship.

Mike Brooks:

Gosh, and in their snit, the Chinese are denying entry visa's to visitors and businessmen. What more proof do people need that China is a DICTATORSHIP, a closed society, and free trade, giving that awful country, billions of dollars is flat out suicide. Right now we are in debt to China to the tune of more than one trillion dollars. If China dumped all of it's U.S. assets, the dollar would flat even more and we would be immediately plunged into a deep recession. If we keep sending them barge loads of dollars and production capacity and jobs, we will be giving them the ability to utterly destroy us. The tipping point is right now! And it isn't just China, it's India and other countries, too. It's time to end this "free trade" train wreck and suck up the damage it will entail in the short term. Our national interests, our survival, our security, our future, depends upon ending the globalization experiment. Those making money off it will scurry to some prepared hidy hole in Dubai when it all comes crashing down, leaving US to hold the bag. Free trade is treason. Advocates are no better than pedophiles.

ins:

That's easy to solve. Just have all the Chinese students who want to come to the US this question.

"Do you have any negative feelings toward his holiness the Dalai Lama? do you swear never to speak against the Dalai Lama and the US?"

Hypocrisy Rules:

Ohh my (Eww):

("This is a little bit off the topic. I am just saying, you are still not open-minded enough. People are just different. When it comes to their beliefs, I don't think there's black/white right/wrong.")

I guess the Jews got what they deserved right? Nazi believed it, and the Japanese has the right to sex slaves, they thought so. And Tibetan Monks should be "Re-Educated" The Cummy thugs in China think they should.

Oh my, the mainlander Chinese in China have gaps in their education, their view of history has been twisted and the truth has been concealed, just like the Japanese youth don't regard the imperial army did anything wrong during WWII, they were just trying to liberate Asia. They come to US with a twisted sense of pride and lead by the cummy spy ring leader who runs the China Student Union. If that's not a terror sleeper cell, what is?

ching-chang-chong-wing-wang-wong-ting-tang-tong-king-kang-kong-ling-lang-long:

CHINA IS THE NATION TO BRING GENOCIDES TO CAMBODIA, DARFUR, TIBET, BURMA, VIETNAM, KOREA, INDIA, ETC.,


WHY THE WORLD LEADERS STILL CLOSE THEIR EYES AND SWALLOWING THE BITTERNESS TO COME TO KEKING TO ATTEND THE OLYMPIC-2008?

WHERE IS YOUR CONSCIENCE? WHERE IS YOUR PRIDE? WHERE IS YOUR LOGIC? WHERE IS YOUR FAITH? WHERE IS YOUR KINDNESS? WHERE IS YOUR VALUE? WHERE IS YOUR BELIEF-IN-GOOD-DEEDS?

SAD SAD SAD TO THE MINDLESS WORLD CHAOS!

Eww:

S. Livingston:

I think the ulra-nationalist rhetoric that keeps showing up on these pages, presumably from Chinese grad students in the US (the grammar is a dead give away), raises the question of whether we should change our immigration policy. I never thought I'd say it. When I lived in China for a few years I used to get so angry at the US for limiting the number of visas given to foreign students.

But I think a lot of mainstream Chinese thinking is just too out of line with American values to ever fit. I mean when I saw protesters on US campuses demonizing the Dalai Lama.... Wes hould let in the very top quarter of a percentage point maybe, but there must be limits. We have to worry about whether citizens of this country are losing control over the ability to define our national identity and values.
________________________________________

That is the most disgusting comment I have ever seen on here so far.
Communication promotes understanding, not limitation.
And when you see those protesters against Dalai Lama, ever you wondered, for a single second, why? Is there a slight possibility that the uniform thinking is due to culture root rather than brainwashing? A good example is that it happens many other Asian countries. When you are despicting super heros like batman and superman who fight alone, we tell stories and shoot movies of people who united and beat the strong.

This is a little bit off the topic. I am just saying, you are still not open-minded enough. People are just different. When it comes to their beliefs, I don't think there's black/white right/wrong.

china-bring-deaths-and-genocides-to-the-world:


WORLD CITIZENS! PLEASE NEVER FORGET THESE:

1/CHINA HAS BROUGHT DEATHS AND GENOCIDES TO CAMBODIA BY USING KHMER ROUGES IN THE PAST!

2/PRESENTLY, CHINA HAS BROUGHT BLOOD BATHS AND GENOCIDE INDARFUR BY USING ZIMBABWE AND OTHER AFRICAN NATIONS!

THESE GENOCIDES HAVE BEEN REPEATED BY THE SINGLE MURDEROUS NATION CALLED AS CHINA!!!

ALL COMMUNIST NATIONS ARE MURDEROUS! AND BASED ON VIOLENCE, BRUTALITY, RIP-OFFS, FAKES, AND CONSCIENCE-LESS DEEDS! CHINA IS A COMMUNIST NATION AND OBVIOUSLY HAS PROVEN TO THE WORLD AS IT IS THE MOST DANGEROUS NATION OF THE ENTIRE WORLD! it's obvious as 1+1 = 2. And the whole world know too much about evil China!

Please visit:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article3772113.ece
(Dockers refuse to unload China arms shipment for Zimbabwe)

American Chang:

I married a sweet, kind and generous girl from “China”, a mainlander. She is not the daughter of an influential cadre but a humble peasant. Like any married odd couple, we have our differences and arguments, but mostly we live our daily live in harmonious ways.
On occasion I pointed out her social inadequacies in hopes of more harmonious conjugation, as you know cultures in US different than that of China in many ways. It was not malevolent intent of course; just forthright complaints arise from my affection that is no different from telling a friend that he had a piece of spinach stuck between the teeth. Then the lighting would strike without warning and the dark clouds appears out of no where, I now see in the corner of my eye that her innocent face had stiffened and contoured into sneers. She shouts back “Who give you the right to criticized me? You think you have the social grace don’t you, what about the stuff you did last week with you damned friends and the month before that?” Then the clouds disappeared as quickly as it arrived, she smiled bashfully, and apologized “I am so sorry, I don’t know what came over me, its just the way I was raised, I guess?”, “I’ll cook you a good dinner tonight” she then hopped two stepped into the kitchen and precede to prepare the feast she promised.
For a split second, the thought of a therapist pop into my head, but then the thought of dieting on McDonald for next week frighten me so much that I just shout up and lay into my couch and said to myself, I’m so lucky to have a wife that cooks good meals for me.

JBE:

Well you've obviously swallowed their Kool-aid. Tts NOT hard to have anything but disgust for communism when we read reports like these...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/19/world/asia/19tibet.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin


Perhaps the chinese government's spin machine can start a new friendly campaign of support for the prople of Tibet called "Save a picture - Go to jail"

Right for Hmong people:

How US citizens can have the right to bash Chinese people?

Type: " Hmong, HUNTED LIKE ANIMALS" in GOOGLE or YouTube, Hmong Hunted and tortured -merciless!

Hmong people fight for Americans during the Vietnam war, sacrificed hundreds of thousand young men. How did US treat them? The evil US spreaded the AGENT ORANGE (the yellow rain) to the mountains, forest, plains where Hmong people live, and Vietnam Gov. is trying all ways to revenge Hmong. But all American citizens don't know this. Their government never told them anything about this.
Tibetans, don't trust any single white man. They only use you as a tool to trouble China. Since China is so powerful, the west will leave you helpless as soon as the battle start.

THE EVIL WESTERN ROLE IN AFRICA:

TO ALL AFICAN LEADERS

Do you still remember the Rwanda Genocide? France and UK provided weapons to the Hutu milita to kill ONE MILLION innocent cilians. Those white colonists are never willing to leave Africa. Here is the detail (you may go Wikipedia check for details)

Arms shipments to Rwanda right before the Genocide

From France

In the early morning of January 22, 1994, a DC-8 aircraft loaded with armaments from France, including 90 boxes of Belgian-made 60 mm mortars, was confiscated by UNAMIR at Kigali International Airport. The delivery was in violation of the cease-fire clauses of the Arusha Accords, which prohibited introduction of arms into the area during the transition period. General Dallaire put the arms under joint UNAMIR-Rwandan army guard. Formally recognizing this point, the French government argued that the delivery stemmed from an old contract and hence was technically legal. Dallaire was forced to give up control over the aircraft.


From Mil-Tec Corporation Ltd (UK)

A UK company, Mil-Tec Corporation Ltd, was involved in arms supplies to the Hutu regime at least from June 1993 to mid-July 1994. Mil-Tec had been paid $4.8 million by the regime in return for invoices of $6.5 million for the arms sent. The manager of Mil-Tec, Anoop Vidyarthi, was described as a Kenyan Asian who owned a travel company in North London and was in business with Rakeesh Kumar Gupta. They both fled the UK shortly after the revelations.[14]
6 June 1993 ($549,503 of ammunition from Tel Aviv to Kigali);
17 - 18 April 1994 ($853,731 of ammunition from Tel Aviv to Goma);
22 - 25 April 1994 ($681,200 of ammunition and grenades from Tel Aviv to Goma);
29 April - 3 May 1994 ($942,680 of ammunition, grenades, mortars and rifles from Tirana to Goma);
9 May 1994 ($1,023,840 of rifles, ammunition, mortars and other items from Tirana to Goma);
18 - 20 May 1994 ($1,074,549 of rifles, ammunition, mortars, rocket propelled grenades and other items from Tirana to Goma);
13 - 18 July 1994 ($753,645 of ammunition and rockets from Tirana to Kinshasa).

king of wars:

World's Largest Arms Exporters

The unit in this table is millions of dollars, Supplier 2000-2006 US$
USA 45438
Russia 40534
Germany 11610
France 11114
UK 6952
Netherlands 3658
Sweden 3115
Italy 3007
China 2881
Ukraine 2463
Israel 2328
Canada 1398
Spain 1323

WHERE-IS-WORLD-CONSCIENCE?:

TO ALL AFRICAN LEADERS:

WILL YOU STILL WANT TO SEE CHINA BRING IN WEAPONS TO MAKE MONEY AND ALSO TO MURDER AFRICAN INNOCENTS?
WHERE IS YOUR MIND? WHERE IS YOUR CONSCIENCE? WHERE IS YOUR INTELLIGENCE? DO YOU STILL KNOWN HOW TO THINK STRAIGHT?

Pls read this:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article3772113.ece
(Dockers refuse to unload China arms shipment for Zimbabwe)

have a good day!

WORLD-DESTRUCTIONS-CAUSED-BY-CHINA:

Entire World! Please read this harmful activity:

"Dockers refuse to unload China arms shipment for Zimbabwe"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article3772113.ece

ANYONE STILL WANT TO BUY MADE IN CHINA PRODUCTS? EVERY DAY IN YOUR NATIONS? INCLUDING AK-47, RPG, LANDMINES, ROCKET LAUNCHERS MADE IN CHINA? LIKE IN ZIMBABWE?????

NEVER EVER BUY AND TOUCH ANYTHING MADE IN CHINA! THE BLOOD-STAINED PRODUCTS! COATED WITH LEAD, FORMALDEHYDE, INSECTICIDES, AND VERY MANY POISONOUS SUBSTANCES!

ANYONE:

The central kingdom (Zhong guo) is most likely a geography concept. In the reachable world of ancient east Asian, Chinese indeed are in the middle of the map. East is the sea and Chaosun & Nippon, South is the jungles, north is the mongol nomads, west is desert and Mountains. For other eastern asian people, they probably also accept this, since Chinese indeed located in the middle of the map. East Asia actaully should be considered as a relative isolated subcontinent. China is in the middle of the map. It is a geography concept, at least, in the very begining.


jiaming:

The main reason for the recent criticisms of China has to do with the general fear of a rising power that is rapidly catching up with the US. It is a well-founded fear, as China is gaining speed in both economic and technological development. As an American I must question why is the media putting so little efforts on focusing our attention on the lack of interests in science and engineering in this country. It is a crisis that America must deal with. American born students view science and engineering fields as "geeky" and socially undesirable. If this goes on, China will catch up and surpass us in a couple of decade. So instead of giving sensational reports about a handful of Chinese spies who are stealing our secrets, the media should address the hollowing of our science and engineering education.

P. Chen:

Your column on China bashing is right on. So is your comment on the possible influence of Taiwan on the future development of China. Very perceptive.
One comment if I may. The Chinese call their country 'Chung Guo'. The translation into 'Middle Kingdom' is a mistake. It may even be viewed as an insult by many. China has not been a kingdom since its unification by the First Emperor in 2nd century BC. It has always been an empire. The proper translation is 'Central Nation' or more colloquially, 'Nation at the Center of the World'.
Now we all know that the Chinese are just bragging. After all, everyone knows that Washington is the center of the universe. However, before people in the West get too derisive, ponder this:
1. People on islands nearby proudly call their country 'Land of the Rising Sun'. Relative to whom?
2. The traditional name of Korea is Chosun, usually translated as 'Land of the Morning Calm'
Again, relative to whom?
3. The name Vietnam means 'Very Far South' or 'South of Yuet'. What could they be referring to?

jiaming:

I wrote a lot of comments criticizing the western media for their bias with regard to China. But lately I am also getting concerned with the nationalism among Chinese in and outside China.

As a Chinese American, I have the duty to tell non-Chinese what the media didn't tell them about China. The extreme language and demanding of apology from a TV news commentator who said nothing racist and not against the Chinese people(to me it was clearly not) were too much. It was a knee-jerk reaction by many Chinese who feel the west is plotting to destroy the new found success of China.

Maybe there are some people in the west who do want to see China go back to a week, poor country. But it is true in life as it is in the world that most people are not evil or have evil intentions. Fear is what evil doers use most effectively to control the masses.

It's refreshing to see an intelligent article like this one by John Pomfret. The media bias about China is everywhere. Even the graphic at the bottom of this blog page shows a cold, intimidating soldier behind a Chinese flag. I think it is very harmful to the west to present China this way because it gives ordinary westerners the wrong impression that they should not deal with China and Chinese people. China is prospering because hundreds of millions of Chinese are now free to work hard to create wealth and a better life for themselves. There are tremendous opportunities for Americans and Europeans that should not be missed.

Shawn:

Thanks Mr. Pomfret,

I think you are pointing out the really problem behind.

Things would goes worse when both side raised their temper, I think all should cool down and read carefully about your article before judging again.

Hope to read your writing soon again.

Warmest regards,

Shawn

BRAMBLES:

@ Peter,
>> What concerns me is the nationalist frenzy that gets expressed in this discussion, and the venom that is directed at any whose viewpoint differs. The "circling the wagons" effect seems pretty strong, to the point that exchange cannot really occur. I have got to hope that discussions go better outside this forum.(END OF QUOTE)

Again, this could be the first time "China" engages the world in the sense that it's the first time the west actually take some real time in reading and talking about things Chinese.

Only that dont expect the initial contact to be perfect. There wont be real communications as long as the confidence/security issue is not resolved in either people's psychology. If you are amazed at the difference in knowledge and mindset, well, dont be. It's a big world.
It's about the first time you set your eyes on some real "Chinese" people. Get ready to find out more. And then deal with the balminess/staleness that comes with familiarity and the realization that the world is not that big after all, that people everywhere are just the same.
Oh I m not saying I m in a position to 'teach' you that. Just reminding you and everyone else involved in this "Third Contact" a very simple fact.

BRAMBLES:

>> What concerns me is the nationalist frenzy that gets expressed in this discussion, and the venom that is directed at any whose viewpoint differs. The "circling the wagons" effect seems pretty strong, to the point that exchange cannot really occur. I have got to hope that discussions go better outside this forum.(END OF QUOTE)

Again, this could be the first time "China" engages the world in the sense that it's the first time the west actually take some real time in reading and talking about things Chinese.

Only that dont expect the initial contact to be perfect. There wont be real communications as long as the confidence/security issue is not resolved in either people's psychology. If you are amazed at the difference in knowledge and mindset, well, dont be. It's a big world.
It's about the first time you set your eyes on some real "Chinese" people. Get ready to find out more. And then deal with the balminess/staleness that comes with familiarity and the realization that the world is not that big after all, that people everywhere are just the same.
Oh I m not saying I m in a position to 'teach' you that. Just reminding you and everyone else involved in this "Third Contact" a very simple fact.

jackqiaqia:

tebit isssure

Comments: am a chinese who wanna going to out side to tell what
feelings for the china government,though i still love china,but i hate this
government and have dispointed to her people especialy that
bureuacrant,i have some thought that familiar with the tibetian,that is i have a
deepest disgust to the this goverment because of :she didnot provide
the chance that fairly to her people but totally a humanbeing eat
humanbeing enviroments,i want leave it if i can,i want challenge in a equality
society,please contact me if u see this words,best regard to you !i see the "tibet riots"
Your Comments: although am chinese,i really respected to tibetans,
espicially those people who have courage to stand out to strive their
right and freedom, what they had done seemed somehow released the
depressness that deeply hiddened inside the mass chinese.

for reasons,maybe sorts of but one piece is the same.almost china
ordinary people are suffered and exploited by extremly unfair
supperstructure politic system and bureaucracy based this system.

in china,the richest people can't avoid untached with this
bureaucrants,almost prospective project can make money were grabbed by officers
who could take advantage of their power make themself rich first and
didn't take the coutry's interest into aacount at all.and this
upperstructure, which
organized the state,werenot made up by people that were elected by
equalitic completions but the majority of them
entring to work related by their old generation.

however, the ordinary population,who are called "people of the
people's repubic of china", are living on the substance of terrific
unequality and lacks the social security.....i see the "tibet riots"2
Your Comments: In search of whatever china news papers or internet, we
can easyly find out there are numorous civilians died or severe
injuried by government clerks every year.some of them just because of doing
business at street for living,some just because of their house site or
other proporty was conveted by government or profit relative realestate
companys whom was failed negotiate with, some just only have a little
offended with polices or governars.
there are another people were killed each year, or by business
conflicts,or cause power crave or political struggles,or even irritate resent
just by oppress subordinates......

Not mention the people who died related with government,more people
died in such an enviroments cotroled by government involved
robbing,rape,steal,gamble,prostitution,drug abuse,kidnap,illicit sexual
relations,trachery,bad triffic and facilities,mine accidents,being sick disable to
treat......we can heard or read in everywhere everyday,let alone those
people who suffered with lose
proporty,discrimilation,unemployment,unaffortable disk of disease,illicit child labour,nopayment work by
swindle or by force,lack of administred stock market traps,unreasonable
distributed tax and fees,undistinguished police bureau,inspect
institute,court......
such there cases are countless.......

in a word, this so called people's government is running for a few of
special classes but not for the masses cilvilian at all.

i hate this government and some of people lives in this substance.i
believe the people have this feelings like me in china absolutely arenot
a small number,that's part of reasons i prefer to support tibetans.i see the tibet riots (3)

In my youth year, almost enterprises in china wree state-owned, by now
almost of them had broke down except afew large company monopoly the
market by state force, forbidding or limiting other else oganizations
entering,but the situation of corruption and inefficiency of these
company's leadship and toilling masse's pitness is the same,the quility of th
masse's life wasn't get better because the continuous price rise always
offset the salary increaseness.

my father had worked at one state-owned backgroud enterprise for whole
life, after his retailment, his pensions rarely could afford his
alive,he hardly get any money to look doctor during his strike period,he died
miserably at his 69 years old eventually because of lack treatment and
medicines.but during his alive,his only property-one old 60 square
metres house his previous leaders distributed to his familly 6 members lived togather.was
unresonable and by forced demolished by current leader ! colluded
with private business man,almost his collegues include us try to appeal
or bring a suit against them to government various deparments,but
eventually none of these departments give a practical responces like other
masses encounterd before......

Nevertheless,this various departments,when they charged the taxes or
other fees(which charged more and more alongwith year and year)from the
civilians,all did so cruel and greed like wolfes and tigers. i once was
telled pay high locative income tax when i runing a store, as an
accountant before, i knew this chage was far more aginst the county's law, but
when i asked the officer,he lost his temper and scold to me with foul
mouthed,at the end even threat to me said there was no reasons,or i
should pay it or they will seal my store.....

No need for reticence, the imaginations of almost governars are such
ugly,selfish and hertless, and had deeply disdained by the masses in
china.....

Peter:

Clearly, a lot of people are riled up about Western press coverage of events in Tibet, perhaps with some justification. That issue seems to color every discussion on this forum. It is natural that China's citizens would get irritated by Richard Gere and friends, and CNN's blunders.
Just to be fair, though, when a government restricts reporters' access to a trouble spot, you might expect some inaccurate reporting to result.

For the record: I believe that China's rise is a great thing, particularly in light of the country's tumultuous recent past. In fact, it might be seen as a best case scenario, given that China's leaders largely wish to sustain the rules of the current international system. Despite the government's sturdy authoritarianism, China's government follows a conception of political order that is not that different from that of the US. Some form of democracy is the end goal, according to statements from the leadership, although disagreement persists b/w China and the US on the question of timing and sequence.

What concerns me is the nationalist frenzy that gets expressed in this discussion, and the venom that is directed at any whose viewpoint differs. The "circling the wagons" effect seems pretty strong, to the point that exchange cannot really occur. I have got to hope that discussions go better outside this forum.

Peter:

Maya/Catty: I am struck by your strong reaction to a hypothetical. If it doesn't apply, why is it so threatening to you? Why the bile?

btw: I am not talking about Tibet, or any other concrete situation. My point was that, unless you believe that China -- alone among the nations of the world -- is incapable of doing something "heinous", I don't see what quibble you have with the use of this hypothetical situation.

Is your point that China is incapable of doing wrong, and therefore cannot even be used in a hypothetical scenario like the one I describe? If this is not your point, I don't understand your comments.

I was hoping to call attention to the knee-jerk reactions that are all too common here; but you have done that job quite well without my help.


overseas chinese:

Mr Pomfret,

Thank you for pointing out these non-sense in the media. Of course China has many problems. From human rights to the environment. It saddens me that the media is just flaming the situation instead of inspiring people to think about solutions. Of course the Chinese people admire western democracy. But recent history have taught us that a naive approach to democracy will only bring chaos and destruction. Think about the Soviet Union and Iraq. Most overseas Chinese today want to see the outside world help China by engaging with the people instead of just confronting the Chinese government. What we are afraid most is that China and West have a war because of false information. Again, think about Irqa.

misogynist:

I am not able to understand many of the views given in this column. To me it looked simply gibberish. Probably my lack of understanding English language. So please pardon me if I make mistakes.
In some comments I seems to have read the writer has written that like China, America did not do any colonisation. What I have understood of the American history is that sometimes around 1600 British settlers started coming to America.. That is some 100 years after Christopher Columbous discovered America. They conquered the natives exterminated them and settled. Probably it is not colonisation. Only that it is something worse. Much later the present Texas was annexed from Mexico. Recently when the drive for deporting the illegal imigrants has started some Mexican groups in California was telling that " we did not cross the border illegally, the border crossed us". And now those poor illiterate human beings living doing some menial jobs are deported to Mexico.
From the begining of the universe when life started there were territorial wars and the mighty were annexing the weak neighbours property. Even the animals fights for their territory. Human beings wanted to expand their territory and there were wars.
England made colonies that sun never set in British empire. And they made a good job of it. They gave the natives a language to communicate with the rest of the world and good administration that it was easy for them to rule indepndantly when they got freedom.
So like any ancient kingdom China must have also conquered the neighbouring area, the present Tibet. It has been part of China for a long time.There is no meaning in disputing it. It is a part of China. There is no doubt.
Just think for a moment. How will the Americans react if Mexican people in Texas or California say that they are of Spanish origin and wants independance.
So let the things be as it is and don't bother too much about China. Let them manage Tibet as per their choice.
I have written this only addressing those who, in my view, are writing too much nonsense. Not anybody else. I have all my love and appreciation for those who are interested in their 9am 5pm job , the week-ends and their family and friends and nothing much else. They are all very nice people. Very lovable.

look listen read and reason:

It's appalling that so many westerners rely on their media instead of listening to the people living on that land to get information about China. Why? If you care about our humanright, why just stop and listen to us about our wishes?

MAYA:

Peter assumes as a matter of course that China has done many things wrong but never accepted criticism -- yet it seems not.

Moreover, i can't infer "China, in this world view, can NEVER be wrong" and "he/she cannot accept the premise that China could ever perform a "heinous" act" from catty's tirade.

so, misapprehension or distortion?

Catty:

For Peter:

"
Peter:
Catty's tirade is revealing in that he/she cannot accept the premise that China could ever perform a "heinous" act. China, in this world view, can NEVER be wrong -- not even in a thought experiment.

p.s., hypotheticals don't require "evidence"; that's what makes them hypothetical.
"

Great, then you think you dont need any evidence because your statement is logically "hypothetical" one. That is perfect, and follow your hypotheticals i can say that if it were the case, china would accept the critics.

The knee-jerk reaction is definitely for you guys who are criticizing without rational logic. I can provide a fact that when one of China's enterprise in 2005 was found that they had done something wrong, the Minister took steps to confirm it and presented the apology as soon as possible.

However, THIS TIME, can you, Peter, take out any little credible evidence to support that China has done anything wrong(for example, murder Tibetans)? I am sure you can't. Because what you know is only to follow your media and make the so-called knee-jerk reaction of criticizing what you think is wrong. But, what is funny is that you do not even actually realized what had happened.

One question: since you think hypotheticals need not evidence, now do you think THIS TIME criticizing China also need not evidence?


Let me help you a little(just a little):

If you answer "Yes", continue to critize, no one will care because you just like to criticize, and it is sure that you can criticize everything without any rational evidence.

If you answer "No", you admit that you have some evidence proving china's wrongs because you have already advocated that china DID have done something wrong. Now would you please present your lovely evidence? Or, can you?
(Tips 1:
Maybe media can help you, they are good at it. Just be careful, for there may be some more Nepal police easily mistaken for Chinese police. Yeah i still trust your eyes.
Tips 2:
Maybe you can go to Tibet and have a talk to anyone you want. At least I have done that and over 50 people, including Tibetan monks, are interviewed by myself. Not too many? Better little than NOTHING!
Tips 3:
Maybe internet can also help you, if you know how to judge which videos or images are true. Maybe, maybe, maybe this one is fit for you because i also trust your eyes.
)

If you keep silent.... GOOD CHOICE!

Yush:

Partly agree with the analysis. Clearly, the sickening, frenzied attacks on China by the western media and rouge politicians originate from racism and the desire to control. The people in western countries live in a superiority complex and believe whatever they do is correct and their products are the best. When they saw China rising and themselves sinking, their mind churns and the animal instinct surfaces. The west now sees China as a threat instead of a slave! The west can not allow any other country to surpass them economically or militarily. It’s not about democracy, not about human rights. It’s about control. This is a new cold war initiated by the west to contain China.

Catty:

For Peter:

"
Peter:
Catty's tirade is revealing in that he/she cannot accept the premise that China could ever perform a "heinous" act. China, in this world view, can NEVER be wrong -- not even in a thought experiment.

p.s., hypotheticals don't require "evidence"; that's what makes them hypothetical.
"

Great, then you think you dont need any evidence because your statement is logically "hypothetical" one. That is perfect, and follow your hypotheticals i can say that if it were the case, china would accept the critics.

The knee-jerk reaction is definitely for you guys who are criticizing without rational logic. I can provide a fact that when one of China's enterprise in 2005 was found that they had done something wrong, the Minister took steps to confirm it and presented the apology as soon as possible.

However, THIS TIME, can you, Peter, take out any little credible evidence to support that China has done anything wrong(for example, murder Tibetans)? I am sure you can't. Because what you know is only to follow your media and make the so-called knee-jerk reaction of criticizing what you think is wrong. But, what is funny is that you do not even actually realized what had happened.

One question: since you think hypotheticals need not evidence, now do you think THIS TIME criticizing China also need not evidence?


Let me help you a little(just a little):

If you answer "Yes", continue to critize, no one will care because you just like to criticize, and it is sure that you can criticize everything without any rational evidence.

If you answer "No", you admit that you have some evidence proving china's wrongs because you have already advocated that china DID have done something wrong. Now would you please present your lovely evidence? Or, can you?
(Tips 1:
Maybe media can help you, they are good at it. Just be careful, for there may be some more Nepal police easily mistaken for Chinese police. Yeah i still trust your eyes.
Tips 2:
Maybe you can go to Tibet and have a talk to anyone you want. At least I have done that and over 50 people, including Tibetan monks, are interviewed by myself. Not too many? Better litter than NOTHING!
Tips 3:
Maybe internet can also help you, if you know how to judge which videos or images are true. Maybe, maybe, maybe this one is fit for you because i also trust your eyes.
)

If you keep silent.... GOOD CHOICE!

Are you qualified for talking about Humanity? :

We'd like to present you a huge mirror for free!
It's srtongly suggested that you came to China in person to feel the real situation, especially in rural places. I admit that China has some negetive points, bue She is changing the condition gradually! Then how's the humanity in your continent?

BRAMBLES:

I would say western media helped a lot to boost the government's popularity among my people.
So, we have that to thank CNN and Mr. "GOONs Talk".

iewgnem:

Its just the WMDs in Iraq all over again, western public are generally not very good at independent thought, (although they would tell you otherwise), its the standard procedure for the media to brand something as evil during times of when you want to do harm to those countries, for whatever reason (US recession and fear in China's case).

The biggest irony of the day is, A) when China finally did uncensor those forign news agencies, instead of turning Chinese against their goverment, it made them aware that western "Freedom" was a sham all along and propaganda is just as rampid in thew est as it is in China.

B) I wouldn't even be surprised Chinese goverment staged from the Tibet and Olympic riots, think about it, there's a huge inflation going on in China right now, during times of inflation people becomes unhappy at their goverment. The Tibet and Olympic issue effectively erased those anti-goverment feelings and instead boosted its popularity at home, drowning out the other domestic woos.

BRAMBLES:

And Mr. Pomfret, it's been a day and you havent even corrected such egregious mistake as to Hu's inauguration date.

When did Hu come to power? It's as easy as a google search. Or use China's Baidu if you may.

This blog is read by increasing number of my people. The Internet movement for Democracy wont happen if people keep ignoring even basic facts. Instead, now it is the POST's reputation at stake.

My people already think you "western media" know nothing about China or are biased in the least.
Dont make the situation worse, please.

Ed:


My comments advocating aid to needy countries to save at least a million human beings a year and the return of looted works of art, were directly primarily toward Europeans, who had the largest colonial empires, as well as longest imperialist misadventures. However, the United States waged an imperialist, unprovoked war against Mexico, which lost about one-third of its territory. Colonies included, as has been mentioned by at least one other participant, Philippines, Guam and Puerto Rico.

Imperialism also included frequent military and covert intervention in Latin America during the 19th and 20th centuries CE, in which Cuba and most of central America were considered "protectorates," which were virtual semi-colonies, with systematice economic exploitation by large corporations.

Foreign occupying forces, including some Americans, looted cultural treasures from China following the defeat of the Boxer rebellion. Some of the looted artifacts included Buddhist works of art.

Whether one considers the removal, massacres, killing off of nearly all the buffalo and spread of diseases to the native Americans as imperialism, these actions certainly constituted aggression, as well as "ethnic cleansing" on a massive extent. Many native American cultural artifacts were looted.

Native Americans for many decades have been the worst off group in this country, with the highest rates of poverty, unemployment, alcoholism, etc. These are current problems, not just issues from a hundred years ago.

FYI:

There is an investigative report indicating that the current wave of anti-China protests is directly orchestrated by a certain US government sponsored "Non-Government Organization" called National Endowment for Democracy. Their objective is to trigger a "Color Revolution" in China's Tibet as a part of the US geopolitical plot.

If this is true the US government is undermining any well intended debate over Tibet. You can find that report here:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8625

BRAMBLES:

@ Peter,

I totally agree with you.
Some of the reaction from our side are not rational. Some of the overacions are not called for.
But I do hope you could be a bit more understanding: the Chinese has not been very accustomed to outside critism for long. We need time to deal with it. Matter of fact, we need time to distinguish what's direct at us from those dumped on the government.
Once it is established in both sides psychology that outside critism is normal and good for health, you'll see a nice people, calm and simple (simetimes too calm/inert to my taste).

It really is that simple.
All thanks to the sudden focus of attention from around the world. It's new.

BRAMBLES:

@ JIA:

LoL...
There are indeed many people monitoring China's networks, they are called "network Police" and indeed they are Police. Their total numbers, by some's account, are at the big thousands across the country, if not tens of thousands.
Oh,BTW, there was a new report, just a month or two ago, saying that the number of NETCITIZENS or Internet surfers in China are now more than those in the U.S. Their number, which includes me and by my obeservation, probably all of the Chinese actually posting here, are more than 200 million.

I rest my case.

Now, PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE and make good on your accusations. And please, dont make it laughable this time with its ill-intended but unsubstantiated denotation.
Say it, and say it loud this time. You have freedom of speech and no "network police" is gonna prosecute you.

I m not comfortable with the "NETWORK POLICE" and for that matter, I resent their monitoring, except their job on online pornos, which they are good at. I want freedom of speech. Make no mistake about it.

Just dont make any intentional confusion. IT'S OUTRIGHT INSULT. DONT COUNT ON ANYONE TO BE EASY ABOUT IT.

Dalai Lama is a liar:

The Tibetan in Exile Government organized special professionals to do Propaganda on worldwide internet forums, they assign at least one person to the major media's forum

Online Tibetan commentators recruited by various agencies are responsible for spreading rumors and leading discussions toward the pro-Dalai opinions on China-related issues, and behaving like trollers to disturb ongoing pro-truth discusisions. They are referred to as the "pro-Tibetan activists," and are paid full time.

Peter:

Yes, Tibet is a complex issue -- one with nuances I, for one, surely don't fully comprehend; in fact, this limited understanding regarding the Tibet issue likely applies to most Western and Chinese here. But, then, if you can find me a "non-complex" issue in this world, I'd love to see it.

What is disturbing in the discussion throughout today is the uniform "Don't criticize! You have no right to criticize!" response from China's fervent defenders. As California notes, China craves the status of Great Power. Sorry to tell you, but sharp critiques come with the territory.

Is criticism equivalent to "bashing"? Is speaking about what one perceives as disturbing discourses and behaviors, in one's own country or that of others, "bashing"?
I thought it was a healthy airing of views.

Go on, criticize the US -- it's okay, we do it, too. At the very least, you won't be met with the "Don't criticize!" mantra.

Slighted:

Chinese can hold long grudges. Long after the bashing has ended, the Chinese people will remember, like they still remember the Opium Wars.

Jia:

Senior Communist Chinese Party officers of the Chinese Central Propaganda Ministry have organized "Net Commentators."

Online Chinese Communist Party commentators recruited by various Communist state agencies are responsible for guiding Internet users toward the authority-endorsed opinions on important issues. They are referred to as the "Internet political workers," and are paid half a yuan per message they write. Internet users refer to these commentators-in-disguise as "fifty-cents."

BRAMBLES:

@ California:

You are assuming too much, my friend. WE ARE THINKING. If that's what you are doubting, wow, come to China if you have a chance, please. We can not tell you anything because you will be looking without seeing and listening without hearing. See for yourself. "It's not normal" -- I mean, my friend, how can that be? If you are really curious, I encourage you to pursue the answer and not seal the "abnormal" opening with habitual thinking. There's curse that comes with the knowledge we already have.
Let's both get more information before jumping to any conclusion, especially the nasty ones, if you do care to do that. That so much I can say. That so much I DARE to think. I invite you to find more about us, including reading more books about the history of China, which includes Tibet.

What I m saying: let's both read and think more before lashing out at each other regarding Tibet.

One more side thought, I dont think the "China Bashers" care about anything Chinese. They dont. They dont care because they can afford to not care and also because traditionally the nasty things they say are responded by equally unreasonable vent of emotions.
That didnt help either side. Now things are different. When we scream at each other, at least for some, there's latent but true ANXIETY
toward China due to concern with food safety or even job safety. The concerns are totally legitimate. But let's face it. Singling China out is unfair. And dont expect Chinese to accept because, unlike some of you people might think, people here have ORIGINAL THOUGHTS.
The animosity helps no one and resolves no real issue. I dont know how much it would exacerbate current wrongs, but if history tells, people's unbridled negative emotion and entrechment along side bigotry, though dangerous, are the hotties of vile politicians, and poison to the welfares of the people.
The real issue could be blown away.
Let's, both, not to act stupid and THINK ORIGIALLY.

Lindel:

It would be a mistake to boycott the Olympics. It is not right for people to grab the torch during the relay. I am interested in China and the Dalai Lama. I think there is still a wise man in China like Zhou Enlai who stopped the Red Guard from destroying the Lama Temple. I believe there is a path forward that will allow Tibet more autonomy and a strong relationship as tibet autonomous area still part of china.

I did not realize until a chinese friend shared with me how important it is to them to show at the olympics how much they have achieved after the "shame" of the imperialist europeans colonization and exploitation of china in the 19th century.

Most westerners do not know these things.

I am hopeful that Chinese students and Tibetans in exile in the west will begin a dialogue where both can talk about their point of view in a respectful fashion.

The young chinese are the ones who will do the heavy lifting to take the next difficult steps in China's continuing transformation.

I think China can look to the success in Hong Kong and take some ideas from the European Union to apply a new model to Tibet that allows autonomy for Tibetan culture and religion and keeps tibet as part of china.

The Chinese will understand that to have an efficient society they will want free trade zones, economic unions with their many neighbors in asia and central asia. They can apply all they have learned since 1949 and will create a new model for Tibet that will surpass economically and socially anything the Europeans have done in the EU. That will be future for the 21st century.

An awakening China, free trade zones, asian and central asian economic unions, a chinese commonwealth that will help stabilze central asia while harnessing the creativity of Han, Uighir, and Tibetan peoples will unfold in the 21st century.

Hu Jin Tao has shown restraint in holding back the PLA from Tibet and relying on the PAP to show that this is not a military problem but a civil issue that China will solve.

A Chinese as wise as Zhou Enlai will protect Tibet the same way Zhou Enlai protected the Lama Temple because he remembers the brotherhood between the Tibetan Lamas and the Chinese people.

The Chinese will hear the voices of humanity during the next months and they know that the Olympics are a celebration, but there is work for all of us today still, after the closing ceremony.

ff:

hey Brambles-

Thanks for the kind words. I just wanted to clarify that my impression of ED (the poster who made the comments about colonialism that I was responding to) wasn't that (s)he is Chinese. I could of course be wrong about that, but I wanted to make clear that I didn't mean to attribute his views to Chinese people in any way. I happen to have several Chinese friends with much more nuanced, non-ideological viewpoints on the subject, so don't worry about me getting the wrong idea.

Also, although I have zero desire to defend the "goons and thugs" comment that appeared on CNN, it is worth noting that it was directed at the CCP, and not China as a whole. It may be that this distinction doesn't matter much to the Chinese people, and I can accept that, but it should be emphasized that in American political discourse the distinction is pervasive and important. To see this in action, notice that Americans don't generally take it too personally if someone makes demeaning characterizations of a particular administration, or even the government as a whole. Indeed, we're often at the forefront of such name-calling :]

As far as the level of discourse goes, I'm afriad that forums like this one will always be dominated by the lowest common denominator. It's the price of the free access and lack of moderation (although I would add that a post I submitted which was critical of Western enthusiasm for bashing China disappeared into moderator-land...). That's not to discourage people from trying to be more thoughtful, but to say that ignoring the haters is probably our best realistic option. Meanwhile, it would behoove everyone to develop some more formal forums for more elevated interaction, where reason and politesse can carry the day. As it is, we're sadly dependent on mass forums for our dialogue, and that is indeed troubling in some ways.

anyone:

There is a disturbing uniformity of opinion amongst the western peole participating here. I had expected that a few western people might have some original opinions about Chinese policy in Tibet, but actually not. Their mindsets are too simple to dig out the truth under the surface, they only can accept what the TV told them. What a sad story, where is your old creativity and independent spirit?

California:

There is a disturbing uniformity of opinion amongst the Chinese participating here. I had expected that a few Chinese might have some original opinions about Chinese policy in Tibet. But no. This is not normal. How will China achieve greatness if there are none who dare to think an original thought? I hope to see China flourish -- not just economically, but also culturally. Intellectually. I suspect that there are some thoughtful Chinese out there -- some original thinkers -- who are reading, but not contributing to this forum. I encourage those who live here in the States to take advantage of their access to information. Read some books on Tibetan and Chinese history. Read critically -- you'll find ideas that ring true and others that don't.

BRAMBLES:

@ FF:

Thanks for the patience in actually refuting with reason, intellect and insight.
I believe the different between some of the Americans and my people (Chinese) should not be exaggerated. NOT that many Chinese think of your country as any kind of EMPIRE. You'll find those arguments imbued with emotion rather than real faith.
The true difference between us is knowlege, knowlege of the other side. That's unfortunate but also understandable. We have yet to begin getting acquainted with each other. But that gap can only be scaled/filled with years of communication/interraction. If the voice at the other end of the conversation could be more like your kind, instead of the many "bashers", it would be really great.
Let's get to know each other before deciding whether a relationship is possible or in order. Let's not call each other liars, goons, impirical colonists or even enemies because we dont know each other and never even tried seeing each other in the eyes. This is 21st century, we should do better than our predecessors.

More communication. More knowlege. More understanding.

Let's do that.

Let's critisize, for a reason and not "bash" which is against reason.

It should be as simple as that. But it might take years or even generations. With more people like you speaking out, I m hopeful.

Rwanda:

"With colonialism, one country economically exploits another country's people. If an when it ends, the people are still around with a national identity."

It seems everyone here already forgot what happened in Rwanda between the Tutsi and Hutu, two intentionally divided races by European colonists

i'm a thug and goon:

we are thugs and goons, so we dont deserve democracy and humanright, we dont deserve the richness of life, we dont deserve to work hard and to make a equal life as you. that is what i can read out from some post. OK, talk nasty, who cares.

ff:

"With colonialism, one country economically exploits another country's people. If an when it ends, the people are still around with a national identity."

I don't agree. In many cases, the subject populations are displaced and even eventually eliminated, and the exploitation is of the land and resources, not the people. See Australia and Canada, for example. It also bears mentioning that much colonialism took place prior to the universalization of the idea of nationalism; indeed, many national identities in post-colonial states are direct products of resistance to colonialism (including the United States).

"America is an ethnically cleansed landmass achieving "lebensraum" for a certain group of people. "

Of course, that ethnic cleansing was largely done by European colonial empires and, nowadays, that "certain group of people" is "pretty much everyone." The liberalization of immigration regulations in the 1960's was very much a conscious effort to make amends for the earlier hubris.

"Most of the reduction in numbers can be attributed to lack of immunity to European diseases."

Which, again, is not a matter of American imperialism.

"So you're right. America can not be considered a colonial empire in the British East-India company sense. It's a different animal altogether."

Right. And so it follows that PR solutions based on treating the United States as if it were a colonial empire don't lead anywhere. This was all I was really trying to get across, really... also, it's been argued (persuasively in my view) that America cannot be considered any kind of empire. That's not to say that we don't engage in imperialism, but it's important not to conflate the two.

Aidsmonkey:

FF:

You're right on the CPUs, my bad. At any rate, boycotters must be mind-melding with their CPUs when they post here.

You can try to rework the global supply chain so that people can purchase products without value addition in China, but you'll see 10-20% inflation.

Aidsmonkey:

FF,

America's historical conduct was actually worse than colonialism. With colonialism, one country economically exploits another country's people. If an when it ends, the people are still around with a national identity. America is an ethnically cleansed landmass achieving "lebensraum" for a certain group of people.

The natives went from 100% of the population to 0.9% (3 million). There is much academic debate about how many native Americans existed before Columbus but estimates range from a low count of 10 million to a high count of 50 million. Most of the reduction in numbers can be attributed to lack of immunity to European diseases. The decimated population were no match for settlers.

So you're right. America can not be considered a colonial empire in the British East-India company sense. It's a different animal altogether.

China's imperialism is also different from colonialism (although the difference gets a little murky). Historically, it's less about economic exploitation and more about a sphere of cultural and polical influence. Today, it's about geopolitics and buffer zones.

www.siliconvalleywatcher.com:

Intel to open $2.5bn chipset factory in China

By Richard Koman - March 26, 2007

Intel will open a $2.5 billion wafer fabrication plant in China, the first major production facility there, according to the New York Times.

Labeled Fab 68, the new plant will join just seven other plants in the world capable of producing Intel 300mm wafers when it opens in 2010. But Fab 68 will produce only chipsets. Microprocessors themselves will not be produced in China. That's a distinction that won US government approval for the plant.

The move is a huge win for China, which is trying to become a high-tech center.

“The Intel plant is very symbolic,” said Li Ke, a senior analyst at the Semiconductor Industry Research Center in Beijing, a government body. “It is inspiring and will help to expand the production scale of the industry.”

Private industry has been relucant to move to China because of weak protection for intellectual property and the federal government is very concerned about China getting a hold of private sector technology that it can use for military operations. But by the time Intel opens its facility in the northeastern city of Dalian, the company will have opened production lines of at least two generations of more advanced equipment, Intel officials said.

While other companies have assembly facilities in China, Intel stands alone in the size of the investment and the nature of the operation. It's just Intel's third 300mm wafer facility outside the US. The others are in Ireland and Israel.

ff:

"Check you CPU, modem, monitor, keyboard, not to mention the servers and routers running this site. "

Not the CPUs. Intel and AMD make the vast majority of CPUs used in personal computers, and neither of them fabricate CPUs in mainland China. AMD has some licensed fabrication in Taiwan, and Intel is currently building a wafer fab in China, but it will not open for another few years. The CPU work done in China today consists of packaging (i.e., they make the CPU chips else, and then China encases them in plastic) and testing. China figures more prominently in lower-margin stuff like memory chips, low-performance microprocessors, and more general electronics. Even then, the vast majority of this work is done by foreign multinationals with facilities in China, so China is only one part of the chain, and none of the technology used in the manufacture is developed there or owned by Chinese entities.

ff:

"There were over 2 million Native Americans in North America 150 years ago but today there are less than 200,000."

Not even close to true. There are nearly 3 million Native Americans in the United States. And let's not forget that most of the damage was done by the Spanish Empire long before Americans came onto the scene.

Anyway, to everyone who rushed to jump down my throat with American misdeeds: the post I was responding to suggested remineration to colonized peoples, and the return of looted artifacts from colonized states. I then pointed out that America never had much in the way of colonies (Hawaii is a state, for crying out loud, and territories are not the same as colonies), this doesn't really apply. Considering that the United States itself was a set of colonies that rebelled against the injustices of colonialism, the entire argument just strikes me as completely tone-deaf and ignorant. That's not to say that America has never done anything bad in its history, just that the suggestions aren't relevant. Indeed, they would involve Britain paying America for the injustices we suffered as a colony. And to be just, they should also involve China paying Tibet and Xinjiang.

Perhaps the problem is the perrenial confusion of empire with imperialism. Not all empires behave imperialistically, and not every state that engages in imperialism is actually an empire.

Please start the boycott:

Please boycott some Chinese products.

Current economy is just too red-hot, we need some help to get cooled down, and boycotting the low-level products will also help China adjust economic structure. That will be good for long term.

Your boycotting will be more than welcome, please~ do it!

KC, Los Angeles, U.S.A. for China:

Let me give an analogy for freedom in China:

Everyone desires to have a big house and a fancy car, but it is a matter of HOW and WHEN that individual will afford to get them in their own pace. If anyone forces that individual to buy those items immediately, not based on his current financial and social conditions, that individual will doom either to rob to afford them (with blood) or to live very miserably (with cold night sweats).

Every Chinese also desires to have the same democracy and freedom. HOW and WHEN to afford them without social unrest are the main questions. If anyone in the West tries to force the Chinese government to provide the freedom overnight, without considering China's current economic and social conditions, Chinese will doom either with bloody civil wars or economic and social disasters.

Everybody and every country is different. Some smart people can get rich earlier and afford big houses; it doesn't mean that you could afford the same.

Same smaller countries can achieve "true" democracy in a shorter time and easier way; it doesn't mean that China, with such a huge population and land mass, can travel the same path with the same pace.

The West struggled a few hundred years to get to this day. And, don't forget that the West were also rich by looting many treasures from those poor countries, including China, and those rich middle class (from looting) formed a good foundation for the democratic reforms.

The new China is only 30 years old. I am very confident China will come up with HOW and WHEN to reach the prosperous and true democratic society in its own terms. More democratic than the hypocritical western-style of democracy!

Aidsmonkey:

@John Mendez:

Couldn't agree more. Not one single post on this discussion board would be possible without Chinese products.

Check you CPU, modem, monitor, keyboard, not to mention the servers and routers running this site.

The most basic human right is that of economic migration. Labeling people "Illegal immigrants" is an disgusting practice of the American government. Rounding people up and deporting them is a vile abuse of human rights. These are workers damnit! They are here to work, not to shoot the natives and steal their land.

Anonymous:

You know, after all the shouting and hating, not a darn thing has changed. People are so stupid. All of them, Americans, Europeans, Chinese.

Aidsmonkey:

So I posted a few not so enlightening thoughts on Pomfret's boards.

Looks like these discussions are dominated by the ignorant on one side and the unreasonable on the other.

And true exchange is happening! The ignorant are becoming unreasonable and the unreasonable are becoming ignorant.

I need a stiff drink...

Orsino:

"Given that the United States never had any colonies other than the Phillipines (and then only for a brief time), and furthermore hasn't looted any cultural relics, I don't really see the applicability. Go tell it to the Europeans and Japanese, who actually had colonial empires."

Ooooops, American Indian, Mexican, and maybe Black people also won't agree with you.

Sioux:

"Given that the United States never had any colonies other than the Phillipines (and then only for a brief time), and furthermore hasn't looted any cultural relics, I don't really see the applicability. Go tell it to the Europeans and Japanese, who actually had colonial empires."

Ummmmm.... think very very hard...

John Mendez:

Those who talk about boycotting Chinese products, throw away your computer and appliances at home, including energy-saving light bulbs, and all the books you read that are printed in China, and throw away your clothes as well. Don't be hypocritical, guys. Your treatment of what you call "illegal" immigrants here in the US is deplorable and bordering inhumane. That's what I call modern day slavery. No wonder many of you side with Da Lay Llama. Chaos and murder rule the streets of urban America everyday and you try to deflect the problem by caring about the world???

PLEASE!!!!

California:

Yea writes: "Talk about genocide, just look at the Native Americans who happen to live in America. There were over 2 million Native Americans in North America 150 years ago but today there are less than 200,000. Are anyone surprise or shock, obvisouly not. We should rewrite our history books and give the stolen land back to the Native Americans than America would have the right to criticize others."

It's not necessary to rewrite the history books. Beginning in the 1960's, plenty of good books on this subject have been written. Yea, I recommend you take a look at The Middle Ground by R. White or Facing East from Indian Country by D.K. Richter or Into the American Woods by J.H. Merrell. These are all fine, scholarly books on the subject of American-Indian relations, and they admit the many injustices that were done to the Indian peoples of America. Now, Yea, can you recommend some fine Chinese books that discuss the injustices inflicted by the Chinese governments (past and present) on the many ethnic peoples of China? Are the Chinese as open-minded when it comes to discussing the injustices perpetrated on their own minorities? It won't be so easy now, Yea, to deflect criticism when the critics are beyond the long arm of the Chinese internal-security forces. China has chosen now to step onto the world stage, and it will be subjected to the same kinds of criticism that the U.S. is used to hearing. The same kinds of criticism that you level here at the U.S. (mistreatment of minority peoples, etc.) are leveled now at China for its policies in Tibet. And, in China's case, we are not talking about events in the 19th century. We are talking instead about what's happening now in Tibet and the western provinces. The world won't be silenced. I suspect that the Chinese inside China are not used to hearing much criticism of their own country. They'll have to get used to it, I think. I hope they will learn to reflect more honestly on their own treatment of minority peoples in China.

Peter:

Catty's tirade is revealing in that he/she cannot accept the premise that China could ever perform a "heinous" act. China, in this world view, can NEVER be wrong -- not even in a thought experiment.

p.s., hypotheticals don't require "evidence"; that's what makes them hypothetical.

Rocky:

To Hervé Sibomana

your arguments are groundless.

1, There is not a single country in this world recognize Xizang province a nation, you got a problem with that, talk to your government at first, I only want to tell you: China is not Yogoslavia.
2, Dalai lama himself was approved by central government to be one of the two leaders in Xizang province. This is a fact.
3, You said infrastructures were for Han race, well, obviously, you have never been to Xizang. Do you know the majority people there are Zang race chinese? Do you know there is no prohibition to ban zang race chinese from using those facilities? Luckly, A lot westerners who have been to Xizang can prove that I am stating a fact again!!!
4, We pour in money to Xizang because Zang race chinese are our brothers and sisters, they are chinese too, we want them to live a better life, given the facts China is still poor and the natural environment in Xizang is so harsh, I'd say china government is doing a great job.
5, We won't leave them alone only because we need to put in more efforts.
6, paying salary to monks will definitely increase the attraction of the budism, because people can focus more on what they believe. They are not buda after all, they need to eat too.

These are all propagenda? maybe, but they are propagenda base on facts, take it or not, you don't need to use "F-words", please show some respect to Mr POMFRET

Yea:

"United States never had any colonies other than the Phillipines (and then only for a brief time), and furthermore hasn't looted any cultural relics..."
Don't mean to offend anyone but it this a joke.
After that so called "splendid little war", when American seiz the Philippines but also the island nations of Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam. In 1899 we also annexed Hawaii.
Even though American only occupied the Phillipines for only a brief time, it was long enough to slaughter more than 200,000 Filipinos.
Talk about genocide, just look at the Native Americans who happen to live in America. There were over 2 million Native Americans in North America 150 years ago but today there are less than 200,000. Are anyone surprise or shock, obvisouly not. We should rewrite our history books and give the stolen land back to the Native Americans than America would have the right to criticize others.

ff:

"Western nations, including the United States, and Japan can not change the past to undo their imperialistic injustices in the past. However, taking the above two modest steps, one humanitarian and the other cultural, would partly atone, with contemporary relevance, for past misdeeds by appropriate positive gestures. "

Given that the United States never had any colonies other than the Phillipines (and then only for a brief time), and furthermore hasn't looted any cultural relics, I don't really see the applicability. Go tell it to the Europeans and Japanese, who actually had colonial empires.

ff:

Any other issues aside, I think we in the United States (and probably the West more generally) need to admit to ourselves that some of our enthusiasm for China-bashing results from exhaustion with the previous 7 years of America-bashing. Since 2001, the dominant theme in internaional relations has been about how American hegemony is bad, and we need to be taken down a notch and abandon unilateralism, etc. etc. Meanwhile, the real villains (by which I do not necessarily mean China) have used it as cover to extend their deviousness. Finally, with Bush leaving the scene, we've reached a point where we're all ready to move on. Everybody has heard the criticisms, and the fact that nobody has any real bright ideas on how to improve things has greatly diminished the traction of "American Empire" screeds (which is not to say that there aren't still certain segments that will never grow tired of anti-Americanism, but their day in the sun seems to be over). On top of that, I get the feeling that Westerners on both sides of the Atlantic are growing tired of the costs of division.

Then, right as all this is occurring, the international spotlight suddenly shifts to Beijing, giving everybody a convenient way to shift the subject to something we agree on.

None of this is to say that criticism isn't warranted, or that reactions to said criticism haven't been counterproductive, but I think honesty requires that we admit that we need a new target for cheap vilification, now that America has gotten stale in that area.

Vic van Meter:

I think everyone's blowing this situation just a little bit out of proportion...

Seriously, folks, China's not perfect by a long shot. It's not American-style free. But it's not the USSR, and the USSR wasn't quite Darfur. China could definitely do with a bit less of the authoritarianism, but they're a lot better than Saudi Arabia (who we talk to quite often). So let's take a moment to step back and put everything in perspective.

China cracks down hard on dissidents. We all know that, it's a symptom of their government's heavy-handed approach to leadership. They jail a great deal more political prisoners than even the western countries (if you count the Guantanamo prisoners being held without habeus corpus or a fair trial political prisoners, which I do). In that example, even America's government is more authoritarian than it used to be.

I doubt highly that anyone would put the Chinese sins above America's on the morality scale on a gross level, it's pretty clear that there isn't a clean government in the world, not even ours.

So if you operate in the perspective of countries on a sliding scale of responsibility and freedom, China isn't quite the United States, but we prop up worse governments without a trade arrangement for other purposes. China does work like the United Sates abroad by working in foriegn nations for its own interests (not a good thing, and even the west can use a bit of improvement there). But they aren't shipping terrorists weapons to kill citizens in western countries.

In fact, the rising Chinese economic situation has created a class of workers looking for more personal rights and freedoms. China is a Communist nation struggling around that one-party identity to reach an economic goal that Communism simply can't achieve in the real world. So you'll see a great deal of the Communist party selling its identity to a more democratic system as they oppress the opposition to hold onto power. Which isn't shocking, but isn't good. And while it's not acceptable to crush demonstrators mercilessly, let's try to remember that most of the demonstrators aren't all Tiananmen Square peaceful demonstrators being murdered for making a difference. There is a lot of lawlessness within the ranks, probably the reason the Dalai Lama tends to wrinkle his nose at the violence and argue for autonomy, not going quite as far as independence.

China is not one of our largest enemies, or even our enemy. It is a country Americans and the rest of the west tend to disagree with because of the smothering effect of its government. But China is hardly a worse enemy to America than a ton of Middle Eastern states, or North Korea, or even Russia. In fact, China seems a relatively good ally politically in at least two of those situations. If the American administration knew what it was doing, it would certainly make an attempt to curb the trade deficit, but they certainly would not drive China and Russia into a sort of alliance of historical convenience.

All of this is a symptom of the Olympic games coming to Beijing and the Tibetan situation coming with very bad (or very good, depending on your position) timing. China may want Taiwan back, but I hardly think China will retake Taiwan with America backing them because, quite frankly, the Chinese government doesn't need Taiwan and doesn't want a war with America. It's also why China pulled the leash on North Korea to keep the peace. In situations like Tibet, western governments may admonish China, but nobody is going to actually do anything about it for the exact same reason. China and the west may grandstand sometimes, but China and the west do not want to fight each other and are not going to provoke one another.

So before you're swept up in the arguement to one side or the other, neither of which being correct, take a bit of time to look at this all from a global scale. China's government can certainly make some improvements and should be encouraged to do so, but China is low on America's totem pole of problems and Europe probably has even less trouble with them. There are quite a few nations in the world who would like to see our democratic countries burn. China just isn't one of them.

So maybe we can have a frank discussion about how China would benefit from a more open system of government and what (if anything) they should do to fix it. But nobody in the west should take their eye off the ball and start heckling the sparkling lights in China just because the Olympics are there. China's actions might not be perfect, but I hardly consider the country itself a global threat and doubt it would be anywhere in the future.

Ed:


Some persons writing comments acknowledge European, American and Japanese colonial injustices, but declare these are in the past, being irrevelant, in their opinions, to the contemporary world or a discussion about China. I think many people and all historians would disagree, rightly contending one can not understand the present or future without considerable knowledge about the past.

For those persons adhering to an ahistorical, limited perspective, the Western nations and Japan could do the following to partially atone for their past misdeeds, in ways having direct relevance to the present. First, the wealthy nations in the West and Japan should give aid, through appropriate international agencies, to improve the lives of poor people, especially children, in their previous colonies.

Jeffrey Sachs, of Columbia University, told Charlie Rose last night, if the wealthy nations of the world took three simple steps, the lives of a million persons, mostly children, could be saved each year. They could save two million lives a year, if additional modest actions were taken by wealthy nations.

Second, the Western nations and Japan should return cultural treasures looted from other people during the colonial, imperialist era, to the nations these works of art were stolen from. Jewish people have been rightly trying for decades
to retrieve art works stolen by the ruthless Nazis, that eventually were taken by other persons, occasionally going to certain art museums.

Western nations, including the United States, and Japan can not change the past to undo their imperialistic injustices in the past. However, taking the above two modest steps, one humanitarian and the other cultural, would partly atone, with contemporary relevance, for past misdeeds by appropriate positive gestures.

skeptick:

It seems clear that the Chinese are a very proud people and sincerely try to show a good face -a good thing that separates them from many other countries and which can be used to everyone's advantage. That said, they may need to show a little more sophistication in their tactics - at times they seem as boorish and thuggish as the Russians (espionage, P3 force down, torch protection).

As for the economic threat - they have a long ways to go before MOST Chinese have a good standard of living. Until then, cut them some slack.

As for a military threat - maybe, but Vietnam kicked their butts big time in the 80s. I suspect they have a ways to go.

As for Tibet, I wish some of the "new age free Tibet" types would broaden their focus.

California:

Curious writes, "Well i have to say that few of your guys know of China . . . We have our own harmony wisdom. We are enjoying more and more freedom and democracy. I think your US social style is advantageous in many fields, but just cannot be so perfect to be applicable anywhere."

We in the U.S. have been reminded again recently (this time in Iraq) that our form of government and our assumptions -- even about what freedoms people desire -- should not be imposed on others. Many of us were opposed to that war from the start or have come since to realize that we should not have tried to export our ideals in the way we did there. However, you do seem to agree, Curious, that freedom and democracy are things to be desired. It's just that you think there is a Chinese form of freedom and a Chinese form of democracy that is different than the American variety. You speak of a Chinese "harmony wisdom." But this "harmony wisdom" is just code, is it not, for a policy that discourages dissent -- that is, opinions that are not in harmony with Chinese government rationale for the things it does? If people are not allowed to demonstrate in Tiananmen Square or anywhere else in China for religious freedom (Falun Gong) or for self-rule (Tibetan autonomy or independence), then what is Chinese freedom? Is there a Chinese variety of freedom that permits the kinds of demonstrations for Tibetan autonomy that we see in the West?

ff:

"America imports more product from China than anywhere else in the world."

No, Canada still holds that particular distinction.

Forrest:

Most China basher here do not even know where China is. The only reason is they feel threatened by the rising of China, and they don't want to see a strong and united China. But what can they do? hahaha

Peter:

The responses on this forum are pretty sobering. There are the depressingly familiar, but expected, statements from both sides (whether about "chicoms", or Westerners who don't "understand" China). Those comments can easily be dismissed as idiotic.

But the overall level of discourse from the "China can do no wrong club" is...well, scary. As one who has studied Chinese language for many years, and has lived in China and Taiwan for extended periods, I have always been a consistent debunker of the China Threat story.

This conversation today makes me significantly less certain of that stand.

tphuang:

It's really hard to see who i should be replying too, but let's go through some of the basics:
1. To those who has never been to China, go there, live a few months and form your opinion. Until then, why don't you listen to people who have lived there instead of your own biases?
2. Blaming corruption/pollution on chicom government alone is popular but lacks thought. When the Western world was experiencing industrialization in the 19th and early 20th century, did it have pollution and corruption problems? And was individual rights anywhere near as protected as it is now? Take a look at Taiwan, the apparent model for China, which was an authoritarian state until the 90s. As recent as the last election, we had fake assassination attempt, underage voting and > 10% rejected votes that basically amounted to rigged election. Point being, it takes time to develop democracy/human rights and such in a country.
3. America imports more product from China than anywhere else in the world. In terms of faulty product as a percentage of overall exports, it is actually lower than many other third world country's export. But because of the current trade climate, that part will never be heard in the mainstream media.
4. As for calling people China-apologist or China-lover? When did looking at other arguments and showing understanding/knowledge become a bad thing?

Half of the posters here can't even show any sophistication other than saying China = communism or facism = bad. It's a sad day when people are too lazy to explore the issues and just accept what they want to believe.

curious:

Well i have to say that few of your guys know of China. China is different from Soviet. So put away your bias. We have our own harmony wisdom. We are enjoying more and more freedom and democracy. I think your US social style is advantageous in many fields, but just cannot be so perfect to be applicable anywhere. I see someone talk about communist with hatred. That's not reasonable. He certainly knows no real Chinese communists. If he knew someone, he would be quite willingly to consider communist as a good word. :) Just drop by. See you.

MAX:

We don't need any more rubbish comments and any discussions are meaningless.

The bottom line is that we live in a diverse world. There is no such thing as an universal ideal or principle. No country and society are perfect. If this world happen to be an ideal and perfect world then: China would be a democratic country, places like Guantanamo wouldn't have existed, and native americans wouldn't have live on reservations instead they would have live on the land that their ancestors had been living on for thousands of years.

Jim:

China's government has indeed suffered a great deal of negative publicity worldwide in recent months (not just in the West), and rightfully so. The Olympic Spirit is based on respect for all of humanity and our ability as individual human beings to attain great feats of physical, mental and spiritual strength. Yet this year's Olympic host government either doesn't understand this spirit or doesn't respect it and simply seeks to exploit the attention the Games bring without making any policy reforms.

If China's government wishes to truly capitalize on the Olympic spotlight, they need to make real changes to their policies in Tibet and elsewhere. For example, China still deploys over 1,300 ballistic missiles against Taiwan, even though that democracy recently elected a leader considered to be more friendly to Beijing as Taiwan's next president. Beijing also continues to block Taiwan from participating in the WHO, even though Taiwan possesses an independent health system that should be able to collaborate with the global health and disease prevention network.

andy:

i think there must be lots of bias between China and west, communist is one thing not top the most,you shoud learn how to communicate well.

JBE:

Well if the Communists had rule of law, didn't allow corrupt payoffs of party officials that result in poisoned medicine, food, and toys being exported around the globe, if "cost of goods sold" wasn't more important than the deaths of innocent consumers, if slave labor were not allowed in coal mines and general industry in China, if global warming were taken seriously in China, if they didn't pollute the planet, if they didn't support murder in Darfur, and ethnic cleansing-lite in Tibet, if they allowed freedom of expression and didn't murder their own citizens, well then I guess I could support china.

Until then, I'm boycotting EVERYTHING imported from China - the Olympics included.

Hervé Sibomana:

First, this forum needs a little moderation

Second, I would like to give an answer to a few comments. I won't cited in order to avoid direct confrontation.

Supporting an authoritarian regime is not like supporting a genocidal one. Supressing freedom and killing people because of their ethnicity is not the same thing at all.

It is fair for the west to be offended by the trade deficit with China as long as these Trades Privateers keep their currency artificially low.

The Dalaï-Lama is not a title given by the central government. Unless you think the tibetan history started in the early 50's of the 20th century.

The 11 points comment about Tibet has a lot of propaganda into it. Paying monks is a method to limit their number from beijing. Most money invested in Tibet serves to extract the ressources there and benefits the Han. If the Han think Tibetans are such a burden to their society, WHY THE F*CK DON'T THEY LET THEM BE BY THEMSELVES!!!!?????

Chinese history doesn't go far away in the past only when it is time to make territorial claims. China made a lot of invasion but during periods where it was impossible to conduct large scale invasion far away from one's homeland. Hence the fact that their conquests are all boundary to their homeland and seems to actually be part of it. If we listen to chinese rhetoric, any place that once was owned by a chinese emperor (wich include Korea, Mongolia, and a few central asian country) could be claimed when Beijing see fit. Oh, and every place where at some point some chinese lived like those desert islands much closer to vietnam, philippines or even Malaysia that beijing claim as being it's natural territory.

Californian:

A number of Chinese apologists in this forum have asked Americans to admit crimes against humanity that Americans themselves have committed. Well, Americans have indeed committed such crimes, and most of us will admit our guilt. We have written many excellent books on the subject of slavery in America, on the historical treatment of the native American, etc. Noam Chomsky works overtime to remind us all of our guilt. We speak freely of our crimes, admit our faults, and try to improve. What I find shocking here is the lack of such critical thinking, with regard to their own country, on the part of educated Chinese. We can assume that the participants in this forum are all decently educated people with an interest in world opinion and world affairs. The Chinese here, in order to participate at all, have had to learn English. I see no self-reflection, though -- no dispassionate critical thinking emanating from my Chinese counterparts in this forum. All I see is knee-jerk jingoism. Isn't there ANYONE in China who has a point of view that does not exactly coincide with Hu Jintao's?

nationalism:

S. Livingston,

China certainly has its fair share of nationalism. But the US is no exception. Remember just a few years back the French fries were renamed Freedom fries in the Capitol Hill, when the French (correctly) criticized the US war in Iraq?

MAX:

Chinese people should wake up and smell the coffee. Today the West lecture you on democracy, tomorrow they put up a sign that said "no dogs or Chinese allowed".

tom joyce:

reading the comments:

1. Nobody is actually bashing the Chinese People, although the Front Page story in the times Thursday, April 17th about the Chinese Students at Duke and their reaction to a Chinese "Traitor" should give all you China-lovers pause.

2. China is an environmental disaster. To say, "Yes, but so was London in 1900" makes little sense, unless you think by 2116 China may stop polluting.

3. Chinese pollution and enslavement DO equal WalMart prosperity and cheap consumer goods. That doesn't mean China isn't a Police State that routinely murders its citizens.

4. The Huffington Post ran an article on how Tibet and The Dalai Lama branch of Buddhism were out of luck, as were any person or group who opposes the will of the Chinese Rulers in areas China rules.

The author of the article made his money explaining China to the West.

But again, just because we cannot do anything about a country as corrupt, brutal, polluted, and and conformist as China does not mean we have to praise China.

China is the perfect marriage of a fascist and militarized police state to an industrialized tiny affluent class.

MAX:

The rise of EAST become "The White Man's Burden" of the 21th Century.


Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to naught.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloak your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen feebles
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers.


-Rudyard Kipling

S. Livingston:

I think the ulra-nationalist rhetoric that keeps showing up on these pages, presumably from Chinese grad students in the US (the grammar is a dead give away), raises the question of whether we should change our immigration policy. I never thought I'd say it. When I lived in China for a few years I used to get so angry at the US for limiting the number of visas given to foreign students.

But I think a lot of mainstream Chinese thinking is just too out of line with American values to ever fit. I mean when I saw protesters on US campuses demonizing the Dalai Lama.... Wes hould let in the very top quarter of a percentage point maybe, but there must be limits. We have to worry about whether citizens of this country are losing control over the ability to define our national identity and values.

Flag:

Lart from Above:
"China's people tolerate the repression of their regime. China's government sometimes complains about Western colonial aggression in the 19th century, but ignores China's wars against Vietnam, Tibet, and South Korea, not to mention killing tens of millions of their own people during the Cultural Revolution. "

it is your ignorance of the historical reasons that attributes greatly to your unfairly comparison between aggression in the 19th century and wars against Vietnam, Tibet...

"China also has offered arms to many aggressive belligerents, oppressive tyrants, and terrorists throughout the Third World, to the great detriment of world peace."

USA offered even more arms to many aggressive ones, to the great detriment of world peace.
You haven't seen the wars in these ten years? Who have participated in them? USA! Thank you!


"China can silence its external critics when it starts listening to its own people. But if the Chinese people won't speak up for themselves, others will have to do so."

If only others have the correct understanding of what had happened.
Obviously, you havn't.

Lart from Above:

China's people tolerate the repression of their regime. China's government sometimes complains about Western colonial aggression in the 19th century, but ignores China's wars against Vietnam, Tibet, and South Korea, not to mention killing tens of millions of their own people during the Cultural Revolution. China also has offered arms to many aggressive belligerents, oppressive tyrants, and terrorists throughout the Third World, to the great detriment of world peace.

China can silence its external critics when it starts listening to its own people. But if the Chinese people won't speak up for themselves, others will have to do so.

Rocky:

Facts about Xizang(tibet)
1. One child policy does not apply to local people
2. Zang race(tibetans)do pay tax.
3. Zang race is required only half score of that of han race to get in university.
4. Zang language is a must pass course in local schools.
5. Monks get paid(high the average) salary for just praying all day.
6. Billions of dollars(us)poured in every year to build infrastructures.
7. Xizang is several thousands meters higher than sea level.
8. Dalai lama is a title, not a name, which is granted by central government.
9. Dalai lama is the biggest slaves holder in human history. The destroy of the slavery system conducted by communist party is the reason he fought and fled.
10. Dalai lama is the leader of Yellow branch of Zang budism, there is a white branch too, just like Shiite and Sunny in islamics.
11. Majority of Zang people outside of China are descendents of slave owners who were defeat and ran to India with Dalai lama

To Mark:

"
Mark:
This Olympics must be the most exciting game in recent memory. Even before it starts, it has attracted folks from so many countries of the world. International Olympics has enjoyed so many hours of free publicity before it even lifts it curtain, which will almost certain guarantee a huge harvest of money for both International Olympic committee and the host country, China. Does anybody have any suspicion that this is a conspiracy of International Olympics committee and China?
"

Does anybody have any suspicion that those Olymipcs before were all conspiracies of International Olympics committee and host countries?
(By the way, USA had been host countries for many times.)

Mark:

This Olympics must be the most exciting game in recent memory. Even before it starts, it has attracted folks from so many countries of the world. International Olympics has enjoyed so many hours of free publicity before it even lifts it curtain, which will almost certain guarantee a huge harvest of money for both International Olympic committee and the host country, China. Does anybody have any suspicion that this is a conspiracy of International Olympics committee and China?

Mark:

This Olympics must be the most exciting game in recent memory. Even before it starts, it has attracted folks from so many countries of the world. International Olympics has enjoyed so many hours of free publicity before it even lifts it curtain, which will almost certain guarantee a huge harvest of money for both International Olympic committee and the host country, China. Does anybody have any suspicion that this is a conspiracy of International Olympics committee and China?

Rocky:

To those who believe the cheap quality products and toys with lead paint are all China's fualt:

you have zero knowledge about internatinal trade and marketing.
In international trade,
Do you know who set up the standards for qualities?
who will conduct the final inspection before bank pays the exporters?
who is in a dominant position to set up the cost control targets in an agreement?
Who signs and approves a design provided by exporters? don't even mention majority exporters just produce base on samples they got.

The answer: The Importers(US/EU companies.)

open your eyes:

To: 'world without yellow peril is a safer world"

You wrote "WHO ON EARTH CAN FIND A COMMUNIST NATION NOT RUN BY MURDEROUS THUGS?, SHAMELESS LIARS?, WORLD'S TROUBLE-MAKERS?, CORRUPTED RED MAFIOSOS?, ORGANIZED SPIES?, LAND-SWAPPERS?, LAND-THIEVES?

ALL ABOVE FACTS HOLD TRUE TO COMMUNIST CHINA!!!!"

You forgot to include the US. ALL THE FACTS HOLD TRUE TO THE US too.

The Taiwanese have been brain-washed by their own corrupt government to believe the worst of China. The people of Taiwan do not even have their own identity. They want to think that they are Japanese. They are willing to follow the propaganda and tear China apart rather than work towards unity.

You believe that Taiwanese because you want to, not because his words are true.

Ken:

Thanks for you input on the relationship between China and the West. I'm a Chinese, and I hope both Chinese and Americans learn more about each other.

Due to the lack of information or too much information, ordinary peoples from the two countries sometimes have disturbing perceptions about each other, e.g, most Chinese people deem all the Americans are rich and optimistic. Obviously that's not always the case. Americans in this country, on the contrary, would consider China as a bad country , partly because of its political system. But for the Chinese, communism is more like a utopia. Sure, there's much room for China to make progress, especially in terms of human rights and democracy.

But I also want to draw your attention to the huge progress Chinese people have already made in as short a period as 30 years.

I hope both people could keep open-minded and try to understand more about each other. That, instead of slander and hatred, will serve both of us well.

Bao Nguyen:

Actually, this article distorts Cafferty's insult to Chinese people. Here is what Cafferty actually said -

Well, I don't know if China is any different, but our relationship with China is certainly different. We're in hock to the Chinese up to our eyeballs because of the war in Iraq, for one thing. They're holding hundreds of billions of dollars worth of our paper. We also are running hundred of billions of dollars worth of trade deficits with them, as we continue to import their junk with the lead paint on them and the poisoned pet food and export, you know, jobs to places where you can pay workers a dollar a month to turn out the stuff that we're buying from Wal-Mart. So I think our relationship with China has certainly changed. I think they're basically the same bunch of goons and thugs they've been for the last 50 years.

Ed:


During economic difficulties, many people seek scapegoats. This often happens not just in the United States, but nearly every country. There was widespread scapegoating in the United States against Japan during the 1980's, recently China has replaced the country. Another country, perhaps India, will be next in a decade or two decades.

Most people in the West know very little about Chinese or United States history, so they have little historical perspective or understanding. The Bush administration has not tried to bring about positive changes in Sudan either unilaterally, its favorite mode of action, or through the United Nations. This has been occasionally reported by some newspapers, including "The Washington Post." The Sudan is no more a "puppet" of China, than Mexico is a "puppet" of the United States.

The United States and most European nations have a long history of supporting authoritarian regimes for political and economic reasons, as well as imposing colonial rule over hundreds of millions of human beings who wanted to be free. The media reinforces negative pervasive stereotypes about other countries, just as it does about presidential candidates in this country.

The media in this country thrives on confrontation and conflict, whether real or imagined, both among countries, as well as in domestic politics. The role of the media in fomenting conflict and avoiding an objective analysis of issues is only somewhat less overt than during the Hearst era leading up to the Spanish-American war. The bias at ABC in "hosting" the presidential debate last night was as illuminating in discussing meaningful issues, as the "points" in Mr. Pomfret's article.

There can be no surprise as to why most informed Americans are dissatisfied with most politicians and the media in this country. Neither do much to contribute to an enlightened understanding, less alone play a positive role in facilitating success in dealing with such important issues as climate change, the food crisis, inflation, Social Security, health care, peace in the Middle East or
Sino-American relations.

catty:

For Peter:

Ooooooooow, I admire you've got such fruitful imagination. Unfortunately, your mere premise is that some country has done something "heinous". I would like imagine you have got enough evidence, but, of course, we both know that you dont.

Besides, China has never said that "all" Americans have done something wrong,however, it seems that dear Mr Cafferty has the power to generalize everything as "all". Hence, peter, you have not provided enough answers for country B to answer, and it is not your fault because it does demand further analysis that, obviously, you are not capable of undertaking.


"Let's think up a hypothetical scenario:

Country A (let's call it USA) does something heinous (let's say...Abu Ghraib).

Country B's government and citizens respond to Country A's actions: "That's outrageous. Country A is a menace and is destroying the world!"

Country A's government and citizens can respond in one of two ways:

(Country A responds -- scenario 1): "Yes, this IS outrageous and heinous. Damn, we have to look at what went wrong here." (Debate ensues within the country....)

OR

(Country A responds -- scenario 2): "You have hurt the feelings of the people of Country A! Beware lest we develop eternal bad feelings towards you! Never criticize us again!" (zero debate ensues within the country....)

How would China's government and citizens respond in the above scenario?"

Cat:

Ooooow, Peter:

What you imagined below is really interesting!
But your only premise is that country A does something "heinous", if you had been conscious of the fact that some country did have done something evil with credible evidence.

Beside,China has never said "do not criticize us". Rather, they said "do not unfairly criticize us." Are you able to differentiate one from another?

Plus again, it seems that China has never said that ALL Americans are "what what"...unfortunately, that Jack Cafferty can generalize everything as ALL.

Sorry, you haven't provided enough answers. But it doesnt matter in that it needs further analysis that you dont have.


"Let's think up a hypothetical scenario:

Country A (let's call it USA) does something heinous (let's say...Abu Ghraib).

Country B's government and citizens respond to Country A's actions: "That's outrageous. Country A is a menace and is destroying the world!"

Country A's government and citizens can respond in one of two ways:

(Country A responds -- scenario 1): "Yes, this IS outrageous and heinous. Damn, we have to look at what went wrong here." (Debate ensues within the country....)

OR

(Country A responds -- scenario 2): "You have hurt the feelings of the people of Country A! Beware lest we develop eternal bad feelings towards you! Never criticize us again!" (zero debate ensues within the country....)

How would China's government and citizens respond in the above scenario?"

Cordy Reagan:

Go to Beijing. In the tourist areas, hotels are clean and lovely, people are friendly, and still curious about big fat white people. Huge street markets every night selling every kind of Chinese food you've ever had plus things you've never imagined. Bennetton, Starbucks, CVS, they're all there. Gorgeous malls are filled with Chinese customers. Streets full of bicycles, with few cars.

Outside the tourist areas, thousands of simple shops, people squat on the sidewalk when they wait for a bus, more bicycles, students everywhere, high rise apartments painted in aqua, coral.

Inside Chinese homes: family dinners, political discussion about the injustices toward the farmers, Chinese version of MTV on the television, beloved pets. Always leave a little big of food on your plate at the end of the meal to let you host know that you were more than satisfied.

Californian:

China's leadership wanted the Olympics in order to focus a spotlight on China. Well, it's worked -- the world's attention has turned now to China. Foreigners who don't know much about China are getting a crash course in what that country believes in. And they are learning, though forums like this, that the Chinese don't believe in self-determination or in freedom of speech. What looks like China-bashing may simply be the shock of discovery -- our rude awakening, here in the West, to what educated Chinese actually think.

Californian:

China's leadership wanted the Olympics in order to focus a spotlight on China. Well, it's worked -- the world's attention has turned now to China. Foreigners who don't know much about China are getting a crash course in what that country believes in. And they are learning, though forums like this, that the Chinese don't believe in self-determination or in freedom of speech. What looks like China-bashing may simply be the shock of discovery -- our rude awakening, here in the West, to what educated Chinese actually think.

yadaovs:

you guys know nothing about china!

Peter:

Let's think up a hypothetical scenario:

Country A (let's call it USA) does something heinous (let's say...Abu Ghraib).

Country B's government and citizens respond to Country A's actions: "That's outrageous. Country A is a menace and is destroying the world!"

Country A's government and citizens can respond in one of two ways:

(Country A responds -- scenario 1): "Yes, this IS outrageous and heinous. Damn, we have to look at what went wrong here." (Debate ensues within the country....)

OR

(Country A responds -- scenario 2): "You have hurt the feelings of the people of Country A! Beware lest we develop eternal bad feelings towards you! Never criticize us again!" (zero debate ensues within the country....)

How would China's government and citizens respond in the above scenario?

Qrs1:

This article aims to push buttons ("provoke discussion") and does so through generalizations. Western media seems to think that by pushing everybody's buttons, it 'balanced' or even 'insightful'. Manipulative is more like it, and both western and Chinese media are guilty of that; neither side has been fair to the other, both have much to be ashamed of.
Western media consistently shy away from dealing with the anti-Han violence in Tibet. They focus only on human rights and you'll never hear about democratic Lamaism or the place for women in Tibetan society. What about mis-labeled photos of riots in Nepal purporting to be Tibet?
Chinese media consistently provoke nationalist sentiment and allow "human flesh search engines" to stalk Wang Qianyuan at Duke U. in the US. That is a lynch mob, and goes way too far.
The Chinese gov't lectures CNN and refuses their apology from Cafferty saying they 'won't allow a wedge between the government and people. Right. That's the CCP way of doing things, where the state = media = the people.
Cafferty criticising the CCP, is that more racist or China-bashing than anything Chen Shuibian ever said?

democrat:

Just look at what kind of people are bashing China, Jack Cafferty, Bill O'Reilly...? Enough said.

VIVE_LA_CHINE:

I don't wanna change others mind,I don't care about other people think about China, about Tibet issue,I don't care,The history of that Tibet was a part of China as long as 3 times of American history,haha,but SB doesn't know. I just wanna say most of Chinese people(over 95%) who trust western medias would never trust them again~ Thank you,Western medias~ You made Chinese people reunited~ VIVE LA CHINE!!!

Vince Wade:

"So, how do you say Boris Badenov in Chinese?"
Hu Jintao
Wen Jiabao
Gen. Guo Boxiong-Central Military Comm
Gen. Liang Guanglie-Minister of Def.

heff:

communism is an economic system, not a political system. call the PRC authoritarian or even dictatorial if you want, but please stop saying it's a communist political system, that is a contradiction in terms. furthermore the communist economic system is almost competely dismantled in China at this point. the most accurate description would be authoritarian capitalist, which is essentially what the US supported throught latin america, africa, asia, and the middle east throughout the cold war.

10commandment:

"But, on the surface, at least, there are few signs that this habit of self-reflection exists within China's government or citizenry. The primary object of self-reflection seems to be China's "Century of Humiliation", the narrative of China as victim of Western aggression."

Did England invade China in the 19th century or not? Did France and England burn down the summer palace in Beijing in the 19th century or not? Did England and France foist grossly unequal treaties on China in the 19th century or not?

If the above are true, can you expect the grossly-wronged Chinese people to forget all of these? History is history, but it is still there.

open your eyes:

For those who can not avoid using the words "communist" and "China" in the same sentence, Yes, China has a communist political system. That is no secret. What is America masquerading as?

CNN's Cafferty should look at the origins of "junk" from China. Americans love bargains. They love bargains at Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart wants to capitalize on this love affair so they go to China and push down prices as low as possible on goods manufactured. Keep in mind that the specs are from US companies, not Chinese manufacturers. US wants junk? China makes junk for the US because that is what the American consumer is only willing to pay for. Why pay $100.00 for something when it can be bought at Wal-Mart for $9.99. If it breaks, buy another one.

to rohit:
It's not a gold medal for human rights, it's a gold medal for hypocrisy.

hugh:

to
tom joyce:

Poor China! Poor, poor slandered and insulted China, home of Freedom, Equality, Great Environmental Policies (we can learn to breathe dirty air if we bow low to our Chinese Masters and learn how to cough and spit, but nooooo, we have to snobbily insist on environmental standards.)

If only the dead the Chinese kill would just go away silently.

If onlt that trouble making Dalai Lama would go back to wherever it is people like him come from.

If only the pollution they wreak on their homeland and the clouds of poison they send so generously for us to breathe would receive the respect that such progressive policies deserve!

Think of all the fun it is to wonder, "Is this Chinese product poison? Is it the result of slave labor? Is it both?" Well, who cares: long live WalMart! Long Live China! Let un-Freedom Ring!

Does China have to imprison or kill everyone who criticizes it before they can run their environmentally disastrous police-state with the full respect they deserve.

How sad also that we in the west criticized Russia during the Bullwinkle show in the early 1960's.

That is a good example of the kind of non-progressive thinking we should all look back at in shame.

Sure, the Soviet Union was also a polluter on a grand scale and had Gulags and other repressions.

But, please, PLEASE, don't hurt the Tyrants feelings!

Thanks for everything, China!

April 17, 2008 11:14 AM | Report Offensive Comments

I can understand your feelings. But are all Chinese people Tyrants? you western people just cannot figure out who your enemies really are and just keep hurting ordinary and independent thinking chinese. and believe me ,it will do no good for anyone.

Hmmm:

An article I read says ...China is vulnerable right now because of the Olympics, and this can be used for pressure not only over Sudan, but also against Iran. China, the second biggest buyer of oil after the U.S., is blocking, together with Russia, calls for more sanctions if Iran continues enriching uranium in its nuclear program. The Olympics could be just the right leverage to bring Beijing on board. There are other Spielbergs out there who could easily start a much more threatening march toward a boycott. Perhaps someone should start considering that option....

Using the Olympic Games as leverage - Haaretz - Israel News
Edition|Fri., November 16, 2007
By Anshel Pfeffer

Another article I read a few months later says: Senator Fienstein's, Richard Blum's American Himalayan Foundation: Dalai Lama raises funds.

Sen. Feinstein and husband, old friends of Dalai Lama, fear for Tibet
By David Whitney - dwhitney@mcclatchydc.com
Published 12:00 am PDT Saturday, March 22, 2008

austrianbc:

@Tom Joyce

I suppose you have never actually been to China. well it's not as though people there would be living day out day in in big concentration camps. the air is quite polluted and the rivers are darn dead, in big cities you can sometimes hardly see 10 meters far and when you come back you have the china lung syndrome. But how has it been in London in 1900? In America or Germany? China is not yet an industrialized country, where people have enough money to buy alternative green energy or environmentally friendly products when coal and is abundant and cheap. But according to the envirnmental footstep analysis a chinese uses a tenth of the ressources a citizen of a western "civilized" industrialized country does. Further note should be made to the fact that 1/4 of the pollutants produced in china is due to manufacturing consumer goods for the west. so catering to your needs makes chinese people virtually sick.
But its not because chinese are more environmentally friendly than europeans (maybe more than americans =)) but they just dont have the money to buy a car or a motorbike, because of maintenance, fuel and the actual prize of a vehicle. Did you know that electro bikes are booming in cities in china - i myself call them silent killers, cause the make no noise when they suddenly pass you by inches. chinese people also tend to a walk a lot more, so when you ask a chinese how far something is away by foot and he tells you its not far, ask again for the actual distance or time it takes, cause for them walking half an hour is not far.
I agree with you that a lot of products where made under slaverish conditions, but there its again the chinese workers suffering to pin down western inflation and provide you with cheap goods, so i dont know why you moan and endevil those people, be thankful to them instead and if you fear that all your money goes to china. the revenue of a good of a western branch which is assembeled in china is mostly split between the firm which designed the product and the distributing entity which are both mostly western. the chinese manufacturers dont get a lot, although people tend to forget that.

its quite amusing to see people struggling between being rascist towards chinese people and trying to condemn chinese authorities for not giving those same chinese people they called names before not enough human rights.

Heff:

China bashing is counter-productive and hypocritical. Having spent 6 years in Beijing, I can say the clear trend is towards a more open society. Is the process slower than I, or indeed many Chinese people, would like? Of course, but the transition from authoritarian communism to democratic capitalism is a difficult one. The Chinese look at what happened in the former Soviet states that tried to pull that transition off overnight, and are now lurching back towards repression, without having had much economic growth even, as negative examples. Instead the Chinese are happy to pursue a gradual reform and opening.

Hardy Campbell:

Fundamentally, this is all about racism and imperialism; white blue eyed caucasian fear of barbaric "Yellow Hordes" and the terror of losing centuries of hegemonic dominion over the "coloreds." The fact that non-whites can challenge this previous uncontested Western economic/military/political superiority has got Whitey on the run. (Note; I'm caucasian yet all too familiar with American racism.) Alien cultures are especially easy to demonize, and Lord knows Americans are never happy unless they have someone (bin Laden) or some country (China, Iran) to make the Devil. The rising tide of white fear is a clear sign that The Times They is A'changin'. This is good, and I applaud China for its relative restraint in the wake of CIA-funded Tibetan riots and so-called liberals who express outrage at the very same human rights violations their own governments routinely commit (can anyone say Guantanamo and Abu Graib?) It is especially hard for me to see white Americans who denounce interference by Bush in Iraq yet blithely endorse interference in Darfur or Tibet. Hypcorisy is not exclusively a white talent, but we seem to be past masters at it.

Ian:

To tom joyce:

"If only the dead the Chinese kill would just go away silently."

Unfortunately, no Tibetan was killed. In sharp contrast, tens of ordinary civilians were burnt to death by those you thought "killed by Chinese".


"If onlt that trouble making Dalai Lama would go back to wherever it is people like him come from."

How many people, especially Tibetan, do you think like him, please?

"If only the pollution they wreak on their homeland and the clouds of poison they send so generously for us to breathe would receive the respect that such progressive policies deserve!"

Pity you... the United States is one of the few that refused to follow "Kyoto Protocol".
By the way, do you know what "Kyoto Protocol" is, and what it is for?


"Does China have to imprison or kill everyone who criticizes it before they can run their environmentally disastrous police-state with the full respect they deserve."

What you need is only to find out whether anyone criticizes it was killed.


"Thanks for everything, China!"

Thank you for your "logical" comment. I really appreciate your wisdom and courage.

liqin929:

"Just be careful of what you are wishing for: prompting blind hatred towards China within your own country may back fire. Most Chinese have very good feelings towards westeren countries, don't waste it. After this incidence, it may all be gone. Goen with it is the credibility of the western media." quote from Amicus

I am a Chinese Christian. What this person said
makes me awe. It is also indeed from my heart!

Speaker_cn:

Maybe we should all look back to the 3.14 Tibet riot to examine who started the whole "China bashing" thing. If it was not the Chinese government but the western media and politicians intentionally plotted the "China bashing" show, should they step out and apologize to China or should China take the name of a "bad guy" just as it really deserved that name?

It is now high time for the western world to examine their conscience.

"2008 Tibet Riot, the Truth and Lies"

Simply serach this title in youtube if you are not afraid of facts.

misogynist:

The West and in particular US has not yet got over from the hangover of the Macarthian era. If they see red they get madder than a bull. And there is envy. Someone who was too much below in position comes and becomes your equal many can't digest it. So find out any excuse to blame him. The Human Rights Watch and such are so much biassed against India and China and blames these countries for each and everything. They are blind to what US does in Guantanamo or Iraq or Afghanistan prisons. The only thing is that such torturing should not happen in US soil. Anywhere else is okay. Why don't the people cry hoarse about these as well. Then one can understand the China bashing. Don't throw stones at others sitting in a glass house. Please set your house and then worry about your neighbour's.

Harvey:

China is Great!

Speaker_cn:

My reply to this guy:

swanieaz:
China is a COMMUNIST country!! Let me say that again "China is a COMMUNIST country."

NOTHNG ELSE NEEDS TO BE SAID. Enough of this PC stuff!
================

Let's look back, Hitler also said,"they are Jews, let me say that again, they are Jews. Nothing else need to be said."

Peter:

Minguito,

I believe convention requires the mention of slavery and genocide of Native Americans in your stock "you have no right to criticize" argument.

Anonymous:

I am a chinese.,from china mainland.
you can not treat all chinese as communist,because there are only 70 million communist,but there are 1.3 billion chinese.All the chinese love peace,and,I know many chinese do not interest in communist party,especial the young chinese,we love our motherland,but not C party.we all expect a successful Olympic game,2008 china stand up!!!!!!I am poor in Enlish,but i think you can understand what i say

--a junior high school student from CHINA

tom joyce:

Poor China! Poor, poor slandered and insulted China, home of Freedom, Equality, Great Environmental Policies (we can learn to breathe dirty air if we bow low to our Chinese Masters and learn how to cough and spit, but nooooo, we have to snobbily insist on environmental standards.)

If only the dead the Chinese kill would just go away silently.

If onlt that trouble making Dalai Lama would go back to wherever it is people like him come from.

If only the pollution they wreak on their homeland and the clouds of poison they send so generously for us to breathe would receive the respect that such progressive policies deserve!

Think of all the fun it is to wonder, "Is this Chinese product poison? Is it the result of slave labor? Is it both?" Well, who cares: long live WalMart! Long Live China! Let un-Freedom Ring!

Does China have to imprison or kill everyone who criticizes it before they can run their environmentally disastrous police-state with the full respect they deserve.

How sad also that we in the west criticized Russia during the Bullwinkle show in the early 1960's.

That is a good example of the kind of non-progressive thinking we should all look back at in shame.

Sure, the Soviet Union was also a polluter on a grand scale and had Gulags and other repressions.

But, please, PLEASE, don't hurt the Tyrants feelings!

Thanks for everything, China!

thinking:

To me, China is a threat is absurd and just imagninary. For people who have any histroy knowledge should not believe that is true. Agree or not, Western has traditionally educated that Chinese is a threat- a biased education. How one can imagine China is a treat to Britain or French given the view of distance. Rather, the thought of China threat is more the afraid that China becomes better. Because the better China is, the less domininat the western world.

One question for everyone. When the poll is polled, have surveyer asked the question to the people: where is China. I bet more than 60% of people who are surveyed have no idea which part of world is China. Then how they think china is a treat?

Anonymous:

treat asI am a chinese.,from china mainland.
you can not treat all chinese as communist,because there are only 70 million communist,but there are 1.3 billion chinese.All the chinese love peace,and,I know many chinese do not interest in communist party,especial the young chinese,we love our motherland,but not C party.we all expect a successful Olympic game,2008 china stand up!!!!!!I am poor in Enlish,but i think you can understand what i say

--a junior high school student from CHINA

Peter:

For sure, a strain of irrational "China threat" mongering exists in the US. Maybe it stems from fears of US decline, or from US political cultural attitudes that distrust rising authoritarian powers (sorry, China's government qualifies as authoritarian, unless we wish to grossly twist the concepts of democracy/authoritarianism). The most vulgar of the "China threat" stories is of the China-Wants-to-Dominate-the-World variety. These narratives are stupid, bordering on cartoon-book ludicrous.

But the "China Threat" story in the US likely has power because of something about the nature of Chinese society itself. Like Japan-bashing of the 80s, the current round of criticism focuses on an historically insular, somewhat xenophobic, country. So the fear in the West might have something to do with the nature of the society. Indeed, the orientalist statements that appear in this discussion from some of China's defenders (e.g., "Funny is that all seemed to know or even acquaint China; however, NONE of you have truly understood it") highlight this xenophobic strain.
The ethnic basis of Chinese nationalism, so different from the US variant, might explain why China bashing has such resonance in the US.

William Phillips:

Just maybe the Chinese "bashing" is the result of rather foolish actions taken by the Chinese communist party leadership.

The old boys shot themselves in both feet then inserted feet in mouth.

The problem is not others bashing the Chinese, it is the Chinese leadership acting the fool!

Minguito:

Funny how people portrait China as new threat from a far distant place. I agree with Steven, GO and see for yourself, then make the judegement.
News are often biased and mostly for its self interest. They are for their own profit and loss nowdays than telling both sides of the story.
I admit there are goods and bads in China. No doubt about it, yet, it is the same in every nation.
Human Rights? Does anybody in human rights protest US for declaring that torture in their Guatanamo Bay Prison is "LEGAL." What about their human rights? All we see from CNN, ABC, BBC and other news is how "Heroic" your Gulf War Heros are, how they sacrifice their life for the idea of "Freedom?", but never portrait how many families are broken, how the city are in ruins, and the devastation that are left behind in those war zones.
I have seen many US interventions in Central and South America, under the name of bringing "stability and peace." But what left behind is a total mess and chaos to the people.
At last, a word to those "commentators, political analyst, or whatever", it's easy to criticize other people. Next time, say something about the big issues at home, because that's the place you live in, and is more closely associated with you.

Steven L.:

Funny is that all seemed to know or even acquaint China; however, NONE of you have truly understood it -- at least none of u have really discovered the truth THROUGH YOUR OWN EYES, and u r merely follow some media news!
A COMMUNIST country? Then what have you seen from such communist country, with your far-reaching sight?
Rohit is right: just talk with them, with Chinese people, with Tibetan first, then draw your conclusion! Anyone utilized by politicians and media is pathetic.

HLBeckPE:

"So, how do you say Boris Badenov in Chinese?"

So who's Fearless Leader and who's Natasha? And does this mean that George W. Bush is Bullwinkle Moose?

Bullwinkle: Hey, Rocky. Watch me pull success out of North Korea?

USA: Again, Bullwinkle? That trick never works.

China's biggest problem isn't public relations. Nor is it their characterizations by those of us in the USA and the rest of the world.

No, so long as China is who they are now - repressive, hostile, insular, bristling, petulant, serfish, jingoistic - they will always be their own worst enemy.

We don't need Boris and Natasha as foolish foils. We have China for laughs. And sorrows.

Thanks much. HLB

amicus:

I put the blame right on the doorsteps of the media and the politicians for the rising hatred toward China. China is a very complex country. But when you hear/read comments on China, it is reduced to some sound bites. They comment on China, with such a confidence, as if they completely understand the issues. Remember, even the most experienced expert can't even figure out who is supporting Clinton make how people think of Clinton and Obama even after such a long compaign season. How can they claim to know China?

The news reports or the commentary pieces are all written by people who know nothing about China. They rely on some code names to describe China, such as "communism regime", "oppressive government", etc, to convey a bad impression on China. Seriously, if you really want to understand China, at least put some experts on to, not just some reporters or politicians. In the west, China-bashing is so popular because it is the most cost-effective way of scoring some points. Look at Nancy Pelosi. As a majority leader of the US congress, she is supposed to have a much greater influence on the US behavior, instead she is trying her best to influence China's behavior. Do you find it ironic? Every country has problems, very hard problems with no good solutions. Just because it happens in another country, it doesn't make it easier to solve.

Just be careful of what you are wishing for: prompting blind hatred towards China within your own country may back fire. Most Chinese have very good feelings towards westeren countries, don't waste it. After this incidence, it may all be gone. Goen with it is the credibility of the western media.

dunnage:

Well now that N.Korea has nukes, we leave them to work things out with China and S.Korea -- and we need 3 things for the axis of evil -- So we jump up and down about them Mexican trespassers, wonder if we get to bomb Iran before November, and ... uh, need proper rotation, not fashionable to about how nuts the N.K's are -- oh, China -- if their army walked 10 abreast into the sea forever their army would still be a threat.

Kacoo:

I like China. Everyone there is so happy and industrious. It is the rich nations where the governments have created a mortgage crisis that are unhappy. Don't blame China. Be happy, if you can. Forgive your governments.

Jeffrey Liu:

So I want to know how to advice China ,encourage Tibet,Xinjiang, Taiwai to separate from China. Yes or Not?

I can say that I start to listen America VOA from my high school, but now I not belive their voice.

Overseas American:

True, recently and especially since Tibet, Western coverage of China has gone from positive to negative. In some cases, the negativity is well reasoned; in others it is just nonsense. Like you, I am reminded of how Japan in the 1980's became an evil power destined to destroy us. China, however, is not blameless in this game. The deteriorating human rights situation under Hu Jintao's leadership is only the tip of the iceberg. For those of us like myself who have lived in China many years, the virulent and abusive hatred of Westerners which has bubbled to the surface in the wake of the Tibet disturbances comes as no surprise. I know I am not alone among long term expatriates in feeling that we foreigners have become increasingly unwelcome in recent years. Though by no means all, a significant number of Chinese would be delighted to see us go. And they are becoming more and more willing to express those feelings. In its depiction of the West and Western people, state controlled media very deliberately nurtures such feelings. In the aftermath of the Tibet disturbances, the government's bombastic, virulent attacks on Western critics and media have encouraged an already existing, latent dislike of foreigners to explode. What has resulted is an ugly and disgraceful display of abusive nationalism. It seems there is plenty of bashing to go around.

usisrubblish:

chines people love peace!!!!it doesn't like us always invated other countries !

Scroot:

Any serious examination of the socio-political systems in China since the end of the Cultural Revolution and the Deng era comes to one very undeniable trend: a shift towards increased openness and moderation.

I think the U.S. has set dangerous global precedent over the last century in terms of interfering in other countries' affairs instead of letting nature take its course. It seems now that the whole realm of global politics is a mass witch-hunt for potential new 'enemies,' and that only by constantly identifying such enemies can Western nations assert and continue to justify those elements of government that operate outside the rule of law.

Come on people.

Daniel Ma:

Content of this Blog & comments made by other readers confuse me. Why most people in the US, France, Britain, Germany, Italy fear the Chinese Govt so much ? What does the Chinese Govt do or "seeks actively to curtail US freedom of action and US options whether economic,political, or military and to advance its own agenda at the US expense, regardless of the harm to the US.." Could someone use more specific terms to describe the "bad" deeds of the Chinese Govt ! Is this Yellow Peril a real or an imagined " Threat " ?

Kurt:

Amazing, it took this long for someone to say publicly what has been voiced in private. China is a threat, they are not about human rights, they are not about good will, they are a communist country who beleives in world domination and they are patient. 1 year, 5 years, 100 years, their goals are the same, to control the globe.

Wake up world.

Peter:

I agree with Pomfret that China bashing does seem to be making a big comeback. But why do so many US and European citizens have such a visceral reaction to China's government? It's not just the authoritarian nature of the regime -- plenty of countries have that. Is China bashing rooted in some kind of crass ethnic hatred? Maybe, but not likely, given that a big chunk of US culture includes (justified) self-flagellation over the US's history of ethnic discrimination.

And here, before I voice my complaints against China, I will insert the (routine) admission of my own government's failures and stupidities in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. But here is what is so troubling: I, a run-of-the-mill citizen, feel free to excoriate my own government's policies, the idiotic, racist mistakes my country has made. And I can recognize as valid, if irritating (yes, we are all nationalists, at some level), much of the scathing criticism from other countries regarding US policies and past mistakes.

But, on the surface, at least, there are few signs that this habit of self-reflection exists within China's government or citizenry. The primary object of self-reflection seems to be China's "Century of Humiliation", the narrative of China as victim of Western aggression.

The dominance of this victim narrative is what troubles so many in the West, I think. And in the current political environment within China, in which only some views can be expressed publicly, it is natural to worry what strange ideological flora might grow within the mainland's climate-controlled public realm.

Scroot:

swanieaz: Incredible analysis. I suppose you believe that the World should be reorganized in the U.S. image?

Your conception is about 60 years too old, and categorically antiquated.

Yawn.
Next.

Brix:

You make it sound like it's just bad luck or the mood swings of a fickle public.

What do you think of the concept that some of it might be deserved?

swanieaz:

China is a COMMUNIST country!! Let me say that again "China is a COMMUNIST country."

NOTHNG ELSE NEEDS TO BE SAID. Enough of this PC stuff!


Scroot:

Hu Jintao did not take power in 2001.

Oh well:

I guess you're right. China is the bad guy. But who's fault is that?

jimly591:

Those who refused to see China's self-aggrandizing agenda taking form and being implemented over the last two decades, whether they are political "leaders," military officials, academics (even at the Naval War College), or opinion-makers, have been kidding themselves and the rest of us. The Chinese government has pursued the same sort of disingenuous, cynical policy toward the West, in general, and toward the United States, in particular, that, in many ways, used to characterize the Soviet Union. By our pandering sycophantically to their whims, rather than opposing forcefully their outrageous behaviors (e.g.,the P-3 force-down, as a start), and by putting this country in the position of a world-wide debtor, we have given China, as well as others, an over-significant hand in our national fate. We have shortsightedly done this to ourselves. Can we change this? I honestly don't know. The message that we must be sure that we get and broadcast across the land is that China is not our friend and seeks actively to curtail our freedom of action and our options, whether economic, political, or military, and to advance its own agenda at our expense, reagrdless of the harm to the US.

rohit:

I have thought about how to deal with the Olympics. Should one boycott them in order to "send a message" or participate in the hope of opening up China? I think that perhaps BOTH strategies need to be used on conjunction. On the one hand, it is good for people to go to China, meet with Chinese people and tell them what we think about Chinese actions in Tibet and Darfur. At the same time, if some world class athletes refuse to show up in China and are given "Human rights gold medals" by some non-profit organization, that will also send a message that we do not tolerate China's actions, and all is not well in how we think of China.

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