Spridon:
I can understand that your lack of objectivity pertaining to Turkey is motivated by your hatred for anything/anyone Turkish. I cannot however comprehend your hypocrisy. Before you label the legitimate Ottoman response to Armenian terrorism as "genocide", before you advocate PKK terrorism, you should first acknowledge true genocides, such as the ones perpetrated against Camerian Albanians and Aegean Macedonian Slavs. Similarly, you should acknowledge and apologize for the genocide attempts against Turkish Cypriots between 1963-1974. All of these were innocent people targeted by Greek fascism for no reason at all! When will Greek occupation of Cameria and Aegean Macedonia end? When will the true owners of these territories be able to return to their homeland? To be a true democrat, you must acknowledge the sins of your own society first. Before advocating independent "Kurdistan", you should demand that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) take her rightful place among the community of nations. Spiridon, you claim that you transcend 'nationalism' so as to reach 'human understanding'. Why then don't you analyze the impact Greek Orthodoxy plays on maniacal Greek nationalism? For instance, why don't you tell us the role it played in the genocides of Camerians Macedonians, and Turkish Cypriots?

Spridon:
I can understand that your lack of objectivity pertaining to Turkey is motivated by your hatred for anything/anyone Turkish. I cannot however comprehend your hypocrisy. Before you label the legitimate Ottoman response to Armenian terrorism as "genocide", before you advocate PKK terrorism, you should first acknowledge true genocides, such as the ones perpetrated against Camerian Albanians and Aegean Macedonian Slavs. Similarly, you should acknowledge and apologize for the genocide attempts against Turkish Cypriots between 1963-1974. All of these were innocent people targeted by Greek fascism for no reason at all! When will Greek occupation of Cameria and Aegean Macedonia end? When will the true owners of these territories be able to return to their homeland? To be a true democrat, you must acknowledge the sins of your own society first. Before advocating independent "Kurdistan", you should demand that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) take her rightful place among the community of nations. Spiridon, you claim that you transcend 'nationalism' so as to reach 'human understanding'. Why then don't you analyze the impact Greek Orthodoxy plays on maniacal Greek nationalism? For instance, why don't you tell us the role it played in the genocides of Camerians Macedonians, and Turkish Cypriots?

Yabanci

I by no means intend to bring in a red herring into this argument. It is the many Armenians who bring up the issue who themselves say that there grievances are part of the general fight against all genocide recognition. You seem to hold what happened to the Native Americans in a different standard to what happened to the Armenian's. Which is my whole problem with the issue. It is a very good example on how some Armenian's are more motivated by revenge and hence hatred which is no good. you say that "justice and retribution for the slaughter of Native Americans is not only a vibrant and well funded project in American government, but taking responsibility for U.S.-perpetrated injustices is a key feature of America" If so why does the Senate not simply and legislatively acknowledge what happened to the Native American's as genocide. And if the status quo on the Native American issue is good enough for you why do you not support a similar tact on the Armenian issue.

You make it seem that it is something to be proud of when you say "avoiding hypocrisy is not the central goal of a democratic government". So simply because Armenians have wealth and power and Native American's do not is good enough for one horrible thing to get attention and the other not?

Dont you agree that the reason the congress will not legislatively (binding or not binding) admit that what happened to the Native American's is tantamount to genocide is because America does not want to legislatively admit a dark period in its history.

It is absurd for America to be pointing its finger. You know very well that is finger has been festering in crap. Any logical person can smell that a mile away. Turkey does have a lot to be self reflective about. But so does America. But simply accusing another country does not wash America's hands clean.

kvartiry gorod zelenodolsk prodazha kvartir aleksandrov g yubileynyy sdayu kvartiru prodazha kvartir g izhevsk prodazha kvartir m tulskaya perplanirovka kvartir prodazha kvartir aleksandrov gostinichnye kvartiry goroda ekaterinburga snyat kvartiru novorossiysk

Hello, nice site :)

Hello, nice site :)

Dear MJC,

You seem to base your conclusions on American opinion and politics. It is important to note that though the amount of Turkish people living in Germany, France, and other parts of Europe greatly and overwhelmingly outnumber Armenian people, the European Union has embraced the need for the Armenians to get closure from this ugly part of history. Obviously, the principles that seem to validate your point here do not apply there, where in the case of France, it is law that one cannot deny it.

Another interesting side note to the EU's purpose in addressing the issue of the Armenian Genocide, is to get Turkey to come to terms with her human rights violations that are ongoing to this day. I believe that the idea in this case is to get Turkey to agree to the past in order to learn from this unfortunate part of her history, in order to not repeat it.

As we know, Turkey is posturing in ways that tell us that she will strike against the Kurdish people in Northern Iraq, though the problem she is having with the rogue element of Kurdish resistance (PKK) is within Turkey proper.

The conclusion is that it is not dependant on the lobby power of the Armenians, who are admittedly more in numbers in the US. It is a moral issue to hopefully make Turkey rethink her position on her present and future actions, especially against her minorities and special groups.

I have found a very well researched thesis from 1988 that describes Turkey as having between 15,000 and 20,000 political prisoners. It is important to note that the figures cannot be properly tallied since Turkey refuses to provide them. I suspect that the problem since then has worsened based on the Islamist government in power and the agenda they enforce versus the secular modus of the government when the above figures were sited. The other reason I believe the figure to be very much higher, is that the relationship the state has with the minorities like the Kurds these days has worsened since then.

I would be very happy if some savvy reader proved me wrong but would like to know the recent data on Turkey's human rights violations and tally on the political prisoners.

Is there anyone capable of researching these statistics?

Spiridon,
Montreal Canada

Yabanci wrote (to Victoria): "basically, it seems as if you just discovered turkish politics last week, with the rest of america." It's stereotypng. It's logically bankrupt, intellectually lazy, morally irresponsible, politcally shameful, and just plain wrong."

Victoria's statement might be stereotyping, but I think her statement is also true (about America, not about you). Americans know very little about Turkey. They seldom visit there, preferring to travel to Greece or Italy, and have no idea where or what Turkey is. Unless they have been sent there by the military or the State Department, you will find a real lack of knowledge and understanding of Turkey. That is part of Turkey's problem when it comes to the Armenian resolution and other issues--they and their politics are unknown to most Americans. There are few Turkish immigrants in the US, and there is no real constituency for Congress to react to. That is one of the reasons that the Turks depend on the Jewish lobby to carry their water often in Congress and with the American public.

oops, sorry. a correction on my last post. the link to Amar Bakshi's relevant article, "Istanbul Protests: 'Curse the PKK, Curse America'" is supposed to be this:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/america/2007/10/istanbul_protests_curse_the_pkk.html

-Yabanci

Victoria,

God, I don't know where to begin with you. It's frustrating, but I'm trying to stick with you because I care about the topic. Please listen, from one human being to another, this situation may require a little self reflection on your part: I have to agree with Spiridon, instead of offering a rational argument as a response, you are offering disjointed and angry responses.

Here is an example. In one of your responses you made this accusation to me:

"STRANGER/YABANCI- basically, it seems as if you just discovered turkish politics last week, with the rest of america."

It's just amazing to me where you came up with this. It is so far from a serious or useful argument I'm really surprised that you'd be willing to put your name to it. The goals here for many of us are to articulate constructive ideas, learn new ideas and maybe even persuade someone to develop a better understanding of an important topic. I just get the feeling that your not approaching this debate with any of these simple goals. You obviously have some rhetorical skills, and perhaps you like to exercise them, which is fine, but I believe you might have it in you to take your contribution up a level. Make a coherent arguement if you'd like. I'd love to hear it.

Now, to your unfortunate accusation that I "just discovered Turkish politics last week" I provided a polite answer in Turkish. I did not ask (in Turkish) whether or not you are Turkish, since one's national affiliation doesn't have much to do with whether or not someone is making a good arguement. My reason for writing to you in Turkish was to demonstrate that if I speak Turkish, it probably means that I just didn't start learning about Turkish politics last week.
Again you couldn't be more wrong in your assumptions about me. (This is an instance that provides an opportunity for you to do some self-reflection on how you have been approaching these discussions).

I don't even care about that part as much as I do the last part of your statement: "it seems as if you just discovered turkish politics last week, with the rest of america." It's "the rest of america" part. Are you saying that "the rest of America" is ignorant?

Who exactly is the rest of America that you are talking about so condescendingly: is it Staten Islanders? Democrats? Cub scouts? African-Americans? Would you say that African-Americans are ignorant? Because they do make up a substantial part of the rest of America that you are talking about?

If you suggested that "the rest of African-America" is ignorant, it would be pretty upsetting to most of us, including you. My point is, the ridiculous thought processes that leads one to say such an ugly thing about any racial group, is the same thought process you use when you say something stupid to me like: "basically, it seems as if you just discovered turkish politics last week, with the rest of america." It's stereotypng. It's logically bankrupt, intellectually lazy, morally irresponsible, politcally shameful, and just plain wrong. Even if you're using it in defense of the most well- meaning political issue in the world. Since you like us to cite sources, Walter Lippmann's groundbreaking book "Public Opinion" amazingly details how stereotyped political understandings get converted into political movements, most tragically movements towards war.

Mr. Bakshi's (another writer from the PostGlobal Project) journalism demonstrates -with supporting video- that Anti-Americanism is a component of the rallying towards war. Find it here:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/nikos_konstandaras/2007/10/turkeys_past_victories_spawn_t/all_comments.html

It's alarming to me. Oversimplified and stereotyped ideas of America-the-enemy are being used by some to rally others to support a war. People will die. People will get killed and a tragically constructed idea of America will play a part in that killing. Stereotyping and hate talk about America often goes on unchecked because it is somehow politically permissable. We often fail to discern what is legitimate criticism of US policy, and what is hateful ranting. Unfortunately hateful ranting is part of this movement towards war. I can direct you towards dozens of Turkish speaking websites where the evidence is indisputibly anti-American. It is not harmless. It's dangerous not only for Americans, but also for my beloved Turkey. And YOU, Victoria, are complicit when you indulge in such behavior.

These articles provide us an opportunity to discuss this problem. So I'm glad we're talking.

-Yabanci

Two items of interest:

CNN reporting that Armenian Resolution vote shelved for now

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/25/us.turkey/index.html

And yet another article by one who disagrees on whetherh or not this was genocide from George Mason University:

(Link is at http://hnn.us/articles/43738.html)

The Armenian Resolution: Pure Grandstanding
By Timothy R. Furnish
Mr. Furnish, Ph.D (Islamic History), is Assistant Professor, History, Georgia Perimeter College, Dunwoody, GA 30338. Mr. Furnish is the author of Holiest Wars: Islamic Mahdis, Their Jihads and Osama bin Laden (Praeger, 2005). He is the proprietor of www.mahdiwatch.org.

House Resolution 106, first proposed when the Democrats took over control of Congress back in January 2007, was just voted out of the Foreign Affairs Committee last week and, according to Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-MD), will pass before Congress adjourns next month. H.R. 106 puts the government of the United States on record as affirming that the Ottoman Empire pepetrated “genocide” on its Armenian subjects, killing at least 1.5 million of them between 1915 and 1923; furthermore, it “calls upon the President to ensure that the foreign policy of the United States reflects appropriate understanding and sensitivity concerning issues related to human rights, ethnic cleansing, and genocide….”1

The Republic of Turkey recalled its ambassador, Nabi Sensoy, and “warned the vote threatens its strategic partnership with the U.S.” 2 A senior Turkish general officer said that passage of this resolution could permanently harm U.S.-Turkish military relations.3 Yet the Democrats are plunging ahead with this legislation, willing to risk further alienating our major ally in the Islamic world at a time when our list of allies there has grown quite thin and just when we need them most. Why?

For one thing, the bill’s primary sponsor, Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA), represents the district with the highest concentration of Armenian-Americans in the country (California’s 29th, which includes Glendale, with the largest Armenian-American population of any city in America: 85,000, or about 40% of the urban headcount4 ). The Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, of course hails from California herself and knows full well the political power of the Armenian-American lobby. (And over in the Senate, Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton (D-NY) has co-sposored the resolution,5 despite the fact her own husband, while in office, opposed it.)

No doubt the resolution, in no small measure, is aimed at further embarrassing the Bush Administration (“See, the same folks who brought you Gitmo and Abu Ghrayb support what the Sultan did to the Armenians!”), even as the Democrats claims that it has primarily an apolitical, utilitarian cast. According to Rep. Schiff, “How can we take effective action against the genocide in Darfur if we lack the will to condemn genocide whenever and wherever it occurs?"

This logic is really quite unconvincing. Must Congress pass a resolution retroactively condemning slavery in the Old Confederacy before we are morally justified in opposing modern human trafficking? But even giving Mr. Schiff and the Democratic leadership the benefit of the doubt and not chalking up their fervent support for H.R. 106 to anything as crass as making political hay, or raking in Armenian-American campaign contributions, we are still left with a major problem.

The whole basis of the bill—the “genocide” alleged—is historically unverifiable as such.

Of course, questioning the Armenian “genocide” is a politically-incorrect sin today, on a par with questioning global warming. After all, we are continually told that the “consensus” of experts—historians or scientists, respectively—supports each claim, er, unvarnished truth. H.R. 106 has no fewer than 14 points alleging to corroborate historically the genocidal nature of the very real Ottoman massacres of Armenians around, and after, World War I.

But in fact there are a number of problems with the received “truth” about what happened to Armenians in the late Ottoman Empire. There is a scholarly consensus of about 1.2 million Armenian deaths (although the Armenian groups claim more, and the Turks considerably fewer). But just how and why that many Armenians were killed—and whether it constitutes “genocide”—is still being hotly debated by historians, contrary to what the House Democrats think. Genocide is “the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political or cultural group.” To prove that the Ottoman Turks committed genocide, one must adduce evidence of just those points. The three legs upon which the genocide claim usually rests are: 1) the post-WWI Ottoman courts which tried some government officials for the massacres; 2) the alleged depredations of the Teskilat-i Mahsusa (Ottoman “Special Forces”); and 3) the memoirs of one Naim Bey. 6 However: the original Ottoman legal documents no longer exist; no one has ever proved the involvement of the Ottoman Special Forces in the killings; and the “memoirs” of Naim Bey—who allegedly provided evidence that Ottoman officials ordered the “genocide”—are suspect at best and may have even been forged.

No one can deny that hundreds of thousands of Armenians were killed: Western sources, and Armenian eyewitness survivors, attest to that fact. But to this day no one has found the Ottoman “smoking gun” that proves, beyond the shadow of a doubt—and don’t we want a rather high bar of proof for something as serious as genocide?—that the authorities in Istanbul ordered the “deliberate and systematic destruction” of the Armenians in the eastern part of the Empire.7 Perhaps those records are tucked away in some dark corner of the Basbakanlik, waiting to see the light of day. But the few Western scholars who can read Ottoman Turkish tend to shy away from this topic; and those who do study the Armenian question either cannot work in Ottoman, or are not given access—all of which tends to back up what Zbiginew Brzezenski said recently: “I never realized the House of Representatives was some sort of academy of learning that passes judgment on historical events….;” and whether what happened to the Armenians “should be classified as genocide or a huge massacre is, I don’t think, any of its business.”8

Steny Hoyer tried to reassure the Turks by telling them that this resolution is “not about your government.” The Majority Leader, unlike some in the press,9 seems to realize that it was not the Turkish government that killed Armenians—it was the old Ottoman imperial one. And one might reasonably wonder why the modern Turks are so paranoid about claims of genocide being perpetrated by their predecessor regime. However, that scimitar cuts both ways: one might also ask why the Democrats in Congress are so eager to pass a meaningless, toothless resolution condemning a government that hasn’t existed for 85 years— in the process estranging us even further from one of our few close allies in the Muslim world—when the historical record fails to support their opportunistic legislation

Dear Victoria,

Instead of offering a rational argument as a response, you are offering disjointed and angry responses.

Please tell us what you feel is the root cause for Europe to disallow Turkey to join the EU after 40 years of trying.

Let us get this discussion back on topic.

Thank you.

Spiridon-
1) you cannot speak to peoples intentions and be expected to have any claim of impartiality

you simply dont know-

2) there was no denigration of jews
metnioning an unequal comparison of the holocaust to the AG isnt a denigration

3)when you post a link it should support your contention
you contend that turkey is spending millions

all your link (from an armenian source) states is that a delegate was sent to dispute the claim of the AG

4) again, your second link is about an 87 year old armenian recounting his story in a nursing home
no mention of language, and only one sentence at the end from a rep from turkey-

"We don't accept any charge of genocide . . . It was really a civil war," he said."

your extreemly assumptive conjecture is 3 times longer than the statement!!!

which also has etcetera marks in the middle- what was cut out?

for the record spiridon- i read all links
try to see all sides

and i ALWAYS let people speak for themselves

i dont look at a turkish site to find out about armeinian actions and vice versa

both your links were by armenians, which is fine- but you surmised without any support whatsoever alot of subjective opinion giving- which your welcome to- but call it what it is

and again- you speak for other people and put in negative intentions that are your own-

you just simply cannot speak for others intentions
well you can, but you lose all credibility and reveal your own intentions when you do so

and your final assumption

"P.S. Your INTENT to talk about language and usage is a nice cheap trick.".

are you crazy? i DIDNT MENTION LANGUAGE OR USAGE

and THEN you insult something i didnt even do!!

"I just thought I would mention this to satisfy your handler's questions about effectiveness on your part.
I hope you are being well paid to promote an ethically insupportable position."

this is a disgusting accusation, and ridiculous

are you saying that you think my points are so well made that someone is paying me to sit here and write???

now, as youll notice- i put in 2 links AND the paragraph supposrting my contention-
it is well known that professor lewis does not think the slaughter in turkey of armenians was a genocide-

and backed it up with the first link of completely impartial source
the second link is biased, but is only used to substantiate that professor lewis was bullied in his career- something easily verified

since you yourself are using internet sources, and you are denouncing the internet as a resource, are you denouncing your own links, or are you outright being a hypocrite?

as to your insulting and false allegations, i see you cannot have a discourse of any intellectual validity

so i do not allow myself to be insulted ad infinitum
if that is your level of discourse i have no desire to respond to your posts uless you develop more courteous habits

this doesnt mean i will stop posting, just not respond to ad hominem posters
peace

Dear Victoria,

I think Mr. Fein was very clear in what he meant to convey. He intentionally used Professor Lewis to denigrate both Armenians and Jews and this is clear in his attempt to intentionally misquote Professor Lewis.

You can call my reasoning on the matter faulty but I am sure you will agree, you are not the authority on the matter. The sources you site are used without pointing to actual published sources outside of the net and the links you list are set up to support a monochromatic view on the details.

Dear Victoria, I am not sure of your intent but the Turkish government has been spending millions of dollars to affect US and global public opinion about the aggressive and brutal subjugation of her minorities.

http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=340

Of particular interest is the following since it points to the conscious intent by Turkey to compose a revisionist history and thereby soften her image. Anyone with at least some understanding of history will see this attempt as laughable, as your attempt to intellectualize the issue on the basis of language rather than focus on the facts, leaves the window open for even more slaughter as we are witnessing presently against the Kurds.

http://www.cilicia.com/armo10b-h.html

Dear Victoria, I suggest that you do some actual reading rather than rely on websites that can be put up and taken down in a matter of minutes. Point us to some actual historical sources that are responsible for their content, not some website set up for the purpose of perpetuating hate literature on the victims Turkey intends to brutalize as she has done in the past.

P.S. Your intent to talk about language and usage is a nice cheap trick. You are not solving a problem, you are creating one. I just thought I would mention this to satisfy your handler's questions about effectiveness on your part.

I hope you are being well paid to promote an ethically insupportable position.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

'Anonymous' Yabanci: You beat me to it ;)

Spiridon and MJC:

I'll have to admit that I've been enjoying your elevated spirits in your fight. I've seen many occasions to intervene but I don't know if I could keep up. From an outsider perspective, I don't think that the two of you are at odds as much as you probably think you are. I find enough traces of reason and intellect in MJC's arguments to say to Spiridon that perhaps MJC is not as much of a monster as you have concluded from a few of his boorish remarks. I think you two have lots of potential to stand down a bit and try to hammer out some reasonable consensus, or at least an agreement to disagree. The potential is certainly there, though I think MJC would really have to emphasize his humanist concerns and downplay his apologist support for national interests (there's plenty of humanist positions in your arguments anyway, I don't think I'm asking you to do anything that isn't part of your outlook ). I'm not just trying to be a peacemaker here. It would be very useful for the whole purpose of this discussion if the two of you could try to meet the challenge of forging some reasonable consensus. I'm riveted!

-Yabanci

Spiridon, your philosophy seems to be, when presented with facts or opinions contrary to what you believe, attack the poster. But what can you expect from someone whose military wears skirts? :-)

i have to comment- people are really unnecessarly insulting in here.

SPIDON- just using logic- your argument fell apart-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"1) As a Jewish American, old enough not only to live through the German internment of the Jewish people (though he did not experience it first hand) and subsequent attempt by the Nazis to eliminate the Jews in the most horrific and morally bankrupt ways, Professor Lewis has never nor would ever deny the holocaust."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

professor lewis did not deny the holocaust- he denied the armenian genocide

with the contested insertion-

"[was the same as what happened to Jews in Nazi Germany and that]"

is not holocaust denial at all
it is an observation of an unequal comparison

without contested insertion

" the point was that was being made was that the massacre of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire is a downright falsehood."

is a denial of the armenian genocide

http://domainhelp.search.com/reference/Armenian_Genocide

( i deleted the long list of scholars for brevity)
A small number of Western academics, few of whom could be considered authorities on the matter, including Bernard Lewis (Princeton University), have expressed doubts as to the genocidal character of the events. They offer the opinion that the weight of evidence instead points to serious intercommunal warfare, perpetrated by both Muslim and Christian irregular forces, aggravated by disease and famine, as the causes of suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World War. They acknowledge that the resulting death toll among the Armenian communities of the region was immense, but claim that much more remains to be discovered before historians will be able to sort out precisely responsibility between warring and innocent, and to identify the causes for the events which resulted in the death or removal of large numbers in eastern Anatolian.Republic "

it is on the link under opposition

heres from an article called "bullied histroians"

"Since the Armenians must hold on for dear life their entire raison d'etre (i.e., the "Genocide"), anyone who dares question their version of events must be attacked.... whether the aggression consists of opening up a lawsuit (as with PROF. BERNARD LEWIS, in France), attempted murder (as with the bombing of Prof. Stanford Shaw's Californian house) or, more typically, their reputations must be destroyed, as in the case of Judge Sam Weems, who was falsely accused by Armenians of being a "convicted felon," among other character assassinating remarks."

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/lowry.htm

FOR ME- THE JURY IS STILL OUT ON THE ISSUE

however- namecalling and derogatory remarks do not lend to your own impartial credibilty

Dear MJC,

If that is as close as we will get to an apology from you, I say that you have made a great effort toward recovery from ignorance.

As a man of reason, I will boldly say that your prognosis is good, since the opinions you still hold are based on loose and unsupportable rumours. Given your illustrated ability to read,(with some help, it must be said) you will be fine.

Keep it up: One day you will be free from your affliction.

Hopeful (but not holding my breath),
Sincerely,

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

My, my, now I am a bigot? I guess that's what happens when one goes on travel and misses a few days--he becomes the subject of abusive comments.

-I did not provide a link for the Fein article because I did not know that was a requirement....but I did cite the source.

-I have absolutely no connection with Fein or the Turkish coalition of America-- I found the article simply through a Google search. I have never heard of Fein or that group before. But so what if I did? I would say that AMViennaVA is Armenian, Spiridon has said that he is Greek, Yabanci is a Turk. Everybody has a background.

Just as a point of reference for Spiridon, not only have I met people with numbers tatooes on their arms, but I visited Dachau back in the late 70s when I lived in Germany. There is no adequate description for the horrors that occurred there, no words can convey the atmosphere that still hangs over that place. I remember all too well the crematoriams that still had a horrific odor, the showers, where human beings were murdered in cold blood. As soon as I entered that place, I wish I had never set foot in it. 30-plus years later, the memory still sends a chill over me and makes me infinitely sad for all those who died so horribly. Perhaps that experience, and seeing what the Nazis did, the cold, cold hearted and cold blooded systematic way that they killed the Jewish people-that was genocide. From what I have read and heard, the terrible things that happened to the Armenians were horrible and cruel. But the Turks were not Nazis, and what was done was not the same.

I truly believe that all you care about the Armenians, Spiridon, is that you are Greek and you, like the Armenians, hate the Turks. In that way, you are the one with the problem with bigotry. Also in that way, you have no objectivity at all in anything to do with Turkey. All you know is that the Turks pushed the Greeks out of Turkey and into the Aegean about 85 or so years ago. I think that all of you are hanging on to grievances for too long--which takes me back to an earlier point I made.

@ AMVIENNAVA,

I wrote the last part with your stylistic overtones, because I like them muchly.

I am glad you approve.

Spiridon
MTL, QC, CA

Spidon @October 23, 2007 4:43 PM: :)

Dear ANONYMOUS,

Quoting Mr. Bruce Fein, 'scholar of The Turkish Coalition of America', verbatim, MJC posted the following, and I quote verbatim:

"If the resolution's proponents had done their homework and put aside religious bigotry, they would have reached the same conclusion as author and Professor Bernard Lewis of Princeton University: "[T]he point that was being made was that the massacre of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was the same as what happened to Jews in Nazi Germany and that is a downright falsehood. What happened to the Armenians was the result of a massive Armenian armed rebellion against the Turks, which began even before war broke out, and continued on a larger scale." "

I will say again, the above is written by Mr Bruce Fein, "Scholar with The Turkish Coalition of America", in which he asks us to accept that he is quoting Professor Bernard Lewis of Princeton University.

1) As a Jewish American, old enough not only to live through the German internment of the Jewish people (though he did not experience it first hand) and subsequent attempt by the Nazis to eliminate the Jews in the most horrific and morally bankrupt ways, Professor Lewis has never nor would ever deny the holocaust.

2) The quote equates what it claims to be denial of the holocaust and the Armenian Genocide on the basis that a known Islamic scholar (Professor Lewis) said it since he is apparently being quoted. This is false. He is misquoted and intentionally so to advocate not only a passive hatred for the Armenians but also the Jews.

I quote again, this time more specifically:
" "...[T]he point that was being made was that the massacre of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was the same as what happened to Jews in Nazi Germany and that is a downright falsehood. What happened to the Armenians was the result of a massive Armenian armed rebellion against the Turks, which began even before war broke out, and continued on a larger scale." "

3) Mr. Bruce Fein, the "Scholar with The Turkish Coalition of America" also tells us that that if we knew the facts we would agree with a known scholar who is then subsequently misquoted by Mr. Fein "the scholar".

4) Mr. Bruce Fein, the "Scholar with The Turkish Coalition of America" then tells us that we are religious bigots for not agreeing with Professor Lewis who should know, though is grossly misrepresented by being misquoted.

I will quote more specifically:
" "If the resolution's proponents had done their homework and put aside religious bigotry, they would have reached the same conclusion as author and Professor Bernard Lewis of Princeton University:..." "

Dear Anonymous,
For your information, Professor Bernard Lewis of Princeton University said the following when asked about the Armenian genocide, after he was proven to be heavily biased to support the Republican position on Turkey in such a way so as not to anger the country into retracting its support for the Iraq effort:
"The point that was being made was that the massacre of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire --[was the same as what happened to Jews in Nazi Germany and that]-- is a downright falsehood. What happened to the Armenians was the result of a massive Armenian armed rebellion against the Turks, which began even before war broke out, and continued on a larger scale."
Please note that what I have in parenthesis --[]--is the addition Mr. Bruce Fein, "Scholar with The Turkish Coalition of America" has added to Professor Lewis' statement, just after he calls the proponents of the Genocide Resolution "religious bigots".

The moral issues involved in Mr. Fein's attempt to portray anyone who does not agree with his fabrications, "religious bigots":

1) As a "scholar", Mr. Fein is showing a less than scholarly approach in his monochromatic arguments.

2) As a "scholar", Mr. Fein is showing a complete disregard for scholarly pursuits by misquoting a known scholar of great repute internationally.

3) As a "scholar", Mr. Fein accuses us of being "religious bigots" while advocating a religiously bigoted position to insult not only the 'Armenian Christians' but also the 'Jews'.

4) As a "scholar", Mr. Fein thinks it it is OK to not only grossly misquote Professor Lewis but also to insult his religious affiliation by calling him bigoted in the collective bigotry he claims we hold in advocating a position other than the one Mr. Fein wants us to support, and also insulting the Jews in knowingly denying them the resolve of the past injury caused to them by the Nazis.

Dear Anonymous,
I fail to see how your position supports the claims Mr. Fein is making and also the claims MJC is making in supporting Mr. Fein.

Anonymous, I think you are a poser too, just like MJC and Mr. Fein.
Anonymous, I think you are also a bigot, since the position you defend is clear on this matter.

Anonymous, I think you need to cultivate your balls because to stand up and get all twisted that we do not agree with you and the perverted rejects you defend, while posting without a name is... well... You know... Juvenile and "slippy" sloppy and very lippy.

I hope that settles the matter on your "scholars"

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

ANONYMOUS @October 23, 2007 2:05 PM: I prefer exchanges with 'known' handles. Any idiot can be 'anonymous'. Heck, I've been 'anonymous' at times; I sometimes even correct for it.

Dear Spiridon, AMViennaVA, and Armenius,

I've been posting comments on the discussions stemming from the Washington Post Global article about Turkey's move to war and anti-Americanism. Please join me, I would love to see your contributions. Here's the link:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/america/2007/10/istanbul_protests_curse_the_pkk.html

-Yabanci

Spiridon- You did not seem to understand the point made.
The point was not answered by a good/terrorist-bad/terrorist thesis.
The gist was, that you decided to completely ignore the many facts given by MJC for a variety of excuses.

1) That no link was provided

However ENOUGH information was given to allow you to find the link yourself.

INVALID REASONING

2) Just insulting the MJC as an extremist bigot

INVALID

3) Further insults to the author as a radical
and questioning motives because he may be
turkish?

INVALID

So your entire reasoning process is based upon the counter view coming from- well- someone whose views oppose yours?

So I take it then, that some terrorists are good, and their cause just- and some terrorists are bad, and their cause unjust?
How about both being bad?
I will be the first to agree that one persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter.
But you didn't adress any of the points brought up in the article, which I find intellectually slippy.
You are attempting your own moral legislation by acsribing values to the suffering of the different groups.
By your reasoning, MJC has no validity because-
he has an opposite stance and opinion?
Your analogy to the SS and Nazis is a dull and low emotional tactic.
Drawing a comparison between MLK,Jr and MJC- just plain makes no sense.

Im not making a statement one way or the other about the issue here.
I just find your reasoning processes equal to- if not more (as you engaged in childish name calling) bigoted.

ANVIENNA- you entirely missed and completely missed the point in your rush to be clever.
It is not a statement saying the PKK are the same armenians from 1915.
With or without the contested historical massacres,they are no longer with us.

It was a comment on the reasoning of Spiridon who rejected the evidence presented as unworthy of attention or response- by pointing out (correctly) that he would not hesitate to give the al-qaeda the same (mild) designation -
when in fact- by his own words- he gave them a WORSE designation.
Also, you should provide refernces for your stats.

I am somewhat amused at people's capacity to justify their own decidely prejudicial and biased views- while denouncing others for doing the same thing.
Either Spiridon has concrete answers or rebuttals for the historical accounts made in the article -which cites among others, the Col. Furlong, Rep to Woodrow Wilson, Capts. Niles and Sutherland, Mourad Toplaian- the abscence of Armenian initiative to present evidence to the World Court- the illegality of even questioning the genocide (as though it were established) in European law (which cannot be separated from Europes 40 year long exclsuion of Turkey from the EU)

I find it remarkable that you claim to be impartial, when you are clearly Anti-Turk in your
in your comments.
Now, would you care to address the article and it's historical validity- or would that be too logical and devoid of bias?
I make this observation, mostly from your slanted wirtings- and also from your telling characteriazation of the new government of Turkey as "islamist" when to date- it has expanded freedoms formerly denied by the secularists.

typetext: When do you define to be an appropriate time to raise the question? When everyone has died?

An eloquent and timely commentary on the moral and historical issues. But something nags at me- why did the US Congress choose this precise moment to bring forward a resolution on this important period? I have not yet read a convincing explanation.

I would like to apologize to the contributers of this discussion for addressing my above comments to anonymous; not once making reference to the Armenians. While the topic of discussion is pretty specific, I was too busy thinking in inferences.

I am glad you are here and contributing AMViennaVA, Yabanci and Armenius or my rambling often would make no sense at all.

Dear ANONYMOUS,

Your question:
So it is not alright to say the Al-Qaeda is a menace that must be put out of business?
They only killed 3,000 Americans.
The PKK has killed 10 times that- 30,000

You have raised an excellent point.

First, we must not think in terms of body counts since the matter of killing is an issue that bears the same moral consequence regardless of the accounting. What is 3,000 Americans and untold others that Al Qaeda has killed, versus the 30,000 (give or take a couple of thousand) that were killed by the PKK?

Secondly, we must not be thinking in terms of the body count per nationality. Death to an American is no less or more serious than death to a Canadian or Afghani or Russian or Chechnyan... etc, etc. Death especially from the needless cause of terrorism is always morally objectionable.

If we consider that the PKK has been confirmed by the European and American governments as being a terrorist organization, similar to Al Qaeda, in that the intent in both cases is to advocate their agenda through the use of violent means, we are missing the point. We cannot talk about terrorists without drawing some distinctions, based not on their similarities but the inherent differences between them, since viewing terrorism as an abstract and forgone conclusion, we are exempting any possible solution to the problem it seeks to address.
Like anything else, terrorists do not live in a political, spiritual and cultural vacuum. Why else would we need also to distinguish their intent in contrast with our intent to “eradicate” the terrorist? There has been lots of talk by the terror apologists that our approach to the problem is terrorism in kind. We cannot go around calling each other terrorists because we will get nothing done in solving the problem. We need distinctions.

The distinctions:

The PKK is an organization that seeks to instigate change in the political process through violent means. While it is true that it has caused too much suffering on account of the tactics it has employed, we must not get bogged down by doing body counts which only serve to legitimize its intent.

Al Qaeda on the other hand seeks to reaffirm the spiritual and cultural differences between itself and the ‘Judeo/Christian West’. The moral authority that is advocated by the leadership of this group, as derived through the actions of this group, is meant to lead to the participant’s salvation and promote their religious/cultural agenda. Though Al Qaeda has made attempts to affect political change, its raison-d’etre is essentially spiritual or religious.

Another distinction between the two organizations is that while the PKK is structured as an organization, with leadership that is accountable to those it represents, Al Qaeda essentially is a loose band of disaffected and spiritual co-conspirators seeking to affect change which agrees, but does not need to be sanctioned by the structured leadership of the group, which by the myth status these leaders seek to impose on the group, distinguish themselves from it and as such are not held accountable. Al Qaeda is structured more as a religious off-shoot of Islam and it’s leadership holds a prophetic distance.

What distinguish the two terror networks in the end are the ends they seek. While the PKK seeks a ‘rational’ and ‘finite’ solution to the problem of political legitimacy for the people it represents, Al Qaeda in contrast seeks a solution that by its very nature is ‘irrational’ and ‘ongoing’: The participants in the actions sanctioned by Al Qaeda essentially seek a form of salvation that cannot be limited to a single act of devotion since devotion is not ‘finite’.

We cannot sanction terrorists but we can say that one type of terrorist is considerably more dangerous than the other. If the PKK seek a political solution, the ‘finite’ solution would be to examine the political means by which this organization will be silenced for good. In the case of Al Qaeda on the other hand, the solution is much more complex since political means will not satisfy the criteria it seeks.

Conclusion:

If we can infer from the demands of the PKK that a political solution is possible, we can say that the Turkish government would be wise to consider the means necessary to remove the problem of legitimacy from this group and therefore solve the terror problem it poses. Historically the Ottoman Empire and now present day Turkey have subjugated and brutalized minorities within their control. What is sought not only by the PKK and other networks like it in Turkey is recognition for the minorities these organizations represent.

If Turkey corrects its human rights record and decentralizes the power the military now holds; clarifies the intentions of its ‘Islamist’ government and seeks cooperation with its neighbours, it stands a good chance of survival. If Turkey seeks to perpetuate the stubbornness and bravado it has shown since its arrival in Europe, it risks annihilation not by any exterior source but from within.
I have said it before and will repeat it again: Turkey must survive and become more cooperative with her neighbours or the alternative becomes dangerous for Europe and the west. Europe and the NATO allies are looking for ways to help Turkey but the matter is left with Turkey to decide. We cannot do the work of rebuilding the political infrastructure necessary to kick start her failing democracy.

As for the matter of Al Qaeda, it is best left for another discussion. The problem and danger posed by this group is much more complex.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

The more Turkey reduces the role of the grim faced generals (whose sad faces look like they just quit smoking!) the more peace would come to Turkey and the two nations that Turkey is made of up: Turks & Kurds.
Turkish gernerals are relics of the fascist era.

Anonymous @October 21, 2007 11:02 PM: Thank you for clarifying that the PKK are Armenians from 1915. That was truly informative. (I hope you can discern the sarcasm; what you posted is irrelevant to this discussion).

However, if you want to mention the Kurds, you must also provide an explanation of:

1. The 30000 (actually in 1995 it was 35000 - I guess some of them have been resurrected) were mostly Kurds, killed by the Turkish army who destroyed more than 3500 Kurdish villages. It is a reason many Kurds found refuge in Saddam Hussein's Iraq, of all places.

2. Why does Turkey still have such a severe problem with its minorities. There are those who (correctly in my opinion) believe that it does because Turkey has not yet accepted the truth about its history.

Majority of those 30,000 persons who have been killed have been KURDS. They were murdered by the annihilation campaign of the Turkish army in the Turkish part of Kurdistan. The Turks have killed Greeks, Armenians, Kurds.......The rain water & time has washed away the red color on the mountains of Kurdistan of more than 1 million Kurds that were killed ny Mustafa Kamal and his henchmen. The attack on Kurdistan by the thugs of Turkish army will be very expensive..it may be the demose of the hungry, fascist, corrupt, and racist state known as Turkey

So it is not alright to say the Al-Qaeda is a menace that must be put out of business?

They only killed 3,000 americans.
The PKK has killed 10 times that- 30,000.

by Craig Chamberlain
Turkish Temper Tantrum
October 20, 2007 01:00 PM EST

If the Armenian genocide of 1915 wasn't a genocide then why are the Turks so enraged whenever the subject comes up? Yes, it's true that the massacre happened during a time of war and that some Turks lost their lives. But the campaign was nothing more than an attempt by the failing Ottoman government to wipe out the Armenians. After all they weren't Turks and they weren't Muslims so why have them around.

Not that the Armenians were the first victims of Turkish agression. For over a century the Turks ruled and brutalized the Balkans, with acts of violence and forcibly taking Christian children from their homes and making them Janisarries in the Ottoman army. (Now all of that is in the past, although if Erdogan has his way the old Turkey might emerge again.)The Greeks who had been living in Asia minor since the bronze age were forcibly expelled by the Turks after world war one. The Kurds had every shred of the culture buried by the Turks(the Turks went so far as to deny that they Kurds even existed, referring to them as "mountain Turks).

In the old days the Turks targeted their victims for religious reasons. Non Muslims were the victims of their violence. After the rise of Ataturk Jihad was replaced by Turkish Chauvinism. Now Turkey is trying to combine the two. Erdogan is trying to create a new Islamism at home and nationalism abroad.

That being said Congress has better things to do. If they want to deal with genocide why not deal with the situation in Darfur, which is ongoing, instead of talking about something that happened in 1915? The answer is that Congress likes grandstanding and chest thumping, they just don't like to take any action.

Instead all they do is agitate a very touchy country, a country that already wants to invade Iraq so they can launch a new campaign against the Kurds(if Erdogan has his way he'll turn the hunt for a few PKK rebels into a new genocide) though it seems after Erdogan has gotten to rattle the saber he's backing down. The situation in Iraq is still dangerous, even after the success of the surge, and we couldn't have allowed the Turks to invade the Kurdish region which happens to be the most stable part of Iraq.

As allies the Turks are valuable, but not irreplaceable. Under Erdogan relations have gotten worse from cool to downright frozen. Still it would be in the interests of the United States to keep the Turks on our side. Congress should abandon the resolution, there's nothing that can be done about it. If they want to stop violence let them stop something that's still ongoing. The Turks are going to be Turks no matter how Congress votes.

Hello World folks!

Why this planet earth has had quite a few of the very worst human-crimes as: mass-murdering, massacres, genocides in several continents, spreading from all world corners as: asia, europe, east europe, middle east, to american continent! Many many genocides have known and recorded! While misters Allah, Jesus Christ, Budha, and all the alikes could only prove to themselves and all mankind as the so-called the "n'existe plus!" (means no longer exist in English)!

Who on earth can believe that the so-called: "God" (if exists? in term of human self-misconcepted) can help this sinful and treacherous and murderous human being?
While these human-being folks or human-erectuses are definitely in love with their everyday treachery-of-all-sorts and murdering-of-all-sorts and born-to-count-money-and-enjoy-sex-and-lie-only mostly! and only very few of them are living like saints or angels in this filthy and odorous world! (i.e., few are good and too many are bad as proven)
It is quite funny as while seeing Billions of world folks have pointed their asses relentlessly into the sky to pray their god everyday!!! but funnily, this world can only have only one way to head into its own destiny is the destination of destructions of all sorts and murdering of all sorts each others as all seen in the world corners everyday!
Sad! sad! sad! this rotten world! that we all have to live in and smell this bad-smell!
It seems to be that this sinful world can only be taught by few asteroids heading in from the heaven as did before to cleanup this dirty world!

For sure! This world citizens do need to come back to live with their valuable conscience that has been lost for a long time ago!

Thanks

conscience-to-the-world

The current menace in the region which is the threat of Turkish miltary intervension in Kurdistan shows the insecurity of Turkish junta. They want to be the bully of neighberhood...Kurdistan wants peace but is prepared to defend against the criinal manuvers of a criminal junta. Kurdistan has defended itself against invaders..just look at the graveyards of the previous occupiers.....A great Kurdish poet, Abdulla Pashew once wrote anout the huge sacrifices of Kurdistan this way:
Unknown Soldier

When a delegation goes to a country
they lay wreath of flowers on the unknown soldier,
if tomorrow
a delegation comes to our country
and asks me where is the grave of unknown soldier?
I say Sir!
on the banks of any river,
on the rocks of any mountain,
under the tree of any garden,
on the benches of any mosque and any church
under any piece of any sky
over any piece of any land,
in this country of Kurdistan,
do not be scared
just lay your head down
and place your wreath....

The current menace in the region which is the threat of Turkish miltary intervension in Kurdistan shows the insecurity of Turkish junta. They want to be the bully of neighberhood...Kurdistan wants peace but is prepared to defend against the criinal manuvers of a criminal junta. Kurdistan has defended itself against invaders..just look at the graveyards of the previous occupiers.....A great Kurdish poet, Abdulla Pashew once wrote anout the huge sacrifices of Kurdistan this way:
Unknown Soldier

When a delegation goes to a country
they lay wreath of flowers on the unknown soldier,
if tomorrow
a delegation comes to our country
and asks me where is the grave of unknown soldier?
I say Sir!
on the banks of any river,
on the rocks of any mountain,
under the tree of any garden,
on the benches of any mosque and any church
under any piece of any sky
over any piece of any land,
in this country of Kurdistan,
do not be scared
just lay your head down
and place your wreath....

Additional notes on MJC's post.

I have located the article in question and indeed, it was published in the Washington times Newspaper on Oct. 16, 2007 and copy/pasted by MJC verbatim.

Link to the article:
http://washingtontimes.com/article/20071016/COMMENTARY02/110160004

On page 2 of this article, at the very bottom you will find the following credit:
Bruce Fein is a resident scholar with the Turkish Coalition of America

The link to the Turkish Coalition of America:
http://www.turkishcoalition.org/

****

Of special interest to the topic:
The Washington Times Newspaper also published an unsigned editorial on Friday, October 19:
Eradicating the PKK (heading)
The Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) is a menace that must be put out of business.(subheading)

****

My opinion:

1) A serious historical editorial without verifiable sources is sure to raise eyebrows especially if it's author is an admitted "scholar" with the entity that seeks to deflect blame from itself for a charge of genocide.

2) A serious historical editorial will attempt to examine both sides and not attempt to present a monochromatic interpretation.

3) A serious historical journalist would not use one verifiable source in print and that source be only a holocaust denier.

4) An unsigned editorial is always a red flag of heavy bias and when it incites violence (even against shenanigans), it is usually known as 'RADICAL':

Eradicating the PKK
The Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) is a menace that must be put out of business.

5) Quoting Bernard Lewis, is... well... just like quoting Bernard Lewis. NO EXPLANATION REQUIRED HERE.

****

Questions:
We have heard a lot of accusations of improper money exchanges by the "Rich Armenian Community" and members of the US government scheduled to vote on the genocide resolution.

1) What, if any amount of money is Mr. Bruce Fein receiving or has received for the purpose of spreading "Foreign State Propaganda" in the US National Capital?

2) What connection does MJC have with Mr. Bruce Fein and/or the Turkish Coalition of America?

****

I hope this clarifies a thing or two about a thing or two.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Dear Arminius,

I vote for MLK and think that MJC is a poser.

We have entertained MJC's theatrics before in the discussion and though he sites sources, his sources must be verified. Many in the discussion have sited sources but the ones that stood up to scrutiny resulted in a resounding resolution accepting the charge of genocide both in the case of the Jews and the Armenians. The United States is not the first country to adopt a motion for the Armenian matter and it will not be the last. The vote in the US is not the issue, since governments never are quick enough to dissuade the offending states from further state sponsored ethnic violence. The real objective is to engage enough conscientious individuals to act within the offending countries, obliging their governments to accept these crimes and in so doing know that their governments will act responsibly in the future or be held responsible and accountable.

I am not a historian but I remember the Kurdish displacement in Northern Turkey and Iraq in the 90's, resulting in a humanitarian catastrophe. I have seen the devastation from ethnic cleansing caused by the Tutsies and Hutus in Rwanda. I can read in a variety of sources the ongoing trouble in Sri Lanka and Kashmir. If anyone is so curious they can use Google maps to look at the Sudanese refugee compounds in Dafur and their burn-out huts, while they wait patiently for the International Observers to intervene(they are still waiting while their indigenous tribe is whipped out slowly). Who now remembers the Berbers of North Africa unless they have had special need to research them? Who among us will tell any of these people that we did not act because someone presented material that needed to be verified, but the sources were hard to locate since they are all dead and, the volumes in which their testimony is kept cannot be released because it does not suit our 'National Interest'?

There are many excuses for inaction and most of them are strategically employed. If as he claims he is a man of action, all I am able to infer by his actions is that MJC is actively seeking inaction.

I have said it before, it does not matter what the vote turns out to be on the US resolution. The real exercise is to prevent the known perpetrators motivated by their 'National Interests' from doing to the present what we know they have done to the past. If we start counting corpses to determine the right and wrong (since there is no such objective criteria to be established) we are waisting valuable time and energy that can be used more effectively to prevent us from these counts in the future.

While MJC is pretty good at magic tricks and vaudeville theatrics, we have seen the show before and found no humour in it the first and second time.

"'I Have a Dream'... a person must not be judged by his colour, origin, or religion, but by his character."

So, there you have the long explanation.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Spiridon,

Re your reply to MJC:

You dismiss his arguments without your usual rational reply. MJC, in his defense, sites sources. But, to his detraction, he lists no links to these sources.

I submit, humbly, is not the jury still out here?

Arminius

Dear MJC,

In a post yesterday I offered you a chance to join me as my guest at an event that I thought you would find interesting if you were close.

Due to your need for extreme and insistent bigotry, I am grateful you did not respond to my offer. I would have been very discomforted by having to politely entertain you and I doubt you would have enjoyed the history aspect either.

I retract my offer.

For the record:
As a young man and up to my teenage years, I continuously met people with identity numbers tattooed to their arm, while being present when my parent's clients came around. I was even told by an old man, who suffered from Alzheimer's, how he suffered under the SS (he was more cognisant of his memories as a young man than the fact that he was telling a young man his awful story).

Given your age and your travels to over 30 countries, I am surprised that you missed the details. I am no expert, but the stories I heard frighten me to this day. What is your excuse?

I am not in a position to verify the historical details you list but I think you are a bitter old man and if your reading material consists of Lewis, I think you are also very morbid.

Sorry for pointing out the obvious but I think that at your age you should be somewhat more responsible.

Is the list of lies from a publication or did you take the time to type it all out just by yourself?

Spiridon, you said:
I believe that Yabanci has made the strongest argument for tolerance and he is right, it starts with the individual and is transmitted outward from there. Does the MLK model work? I am no sociologist but I think I am sort of living it within my community, not only on a personal level but also communally.

My reply:
From other things you said, the MLK model is working in your community. HIs message was, from his 'I Have a Dream' speech, that a person must not be judged by his color, origin, or religion, but by his character.

May the message of your community spread to the world! I have seen evidence of it here in Atlanta, Georgia, USA, the home of MLK.

God bless.

Arminius

As they say, where you stand depends on where you sit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article published Oct 16, 2007 in Washington Times
Armenian crime amnesia?

October 16, 2007

Bruce Fein - Armenian crimes against humanity and war crimes against the Ottoman Turkish and Kurdish populations of eastern and southern Anatolia during World War I and its aftermath have been forgotten amidst congressional preoccupation with placating the vocal and richly financed Armenian lobby.

Last Wednesday, the Armenians hectored members of the House International Relations Committee by a 27-21 vote into passing a counterfactual resolution convicting the Ottoman Empire and its successor state, the Republic of Turkey, of genocide. A historically supportable resolution would have condemned massacres against Armenians with the same vigor, as it should have condemned massacres by Armenians against the innocent Muslim populations of the crumbling Ottoman Empire.

Capt. Emory Niles and Arthur Sutherland, on an official 1919 U.S. mission to eastern Anatolia, reported: "In the entire region from Bitlis through Van to Bayezit, we were informed that the damage and destruction had been done by the Armenians, who, after the Russians retired, remained in occupation of the country and who, when the Turkish army advanced, destroyed everything belonging to the Musulmans. Moreover, the Armenians are accused of having committed murder, rape, arson and horrible atrocities of every description upon the Musulman population. At first, we were most incredulous of these stories, but we finally came to believe them, since the testimony was absolutely unanimous and was corroborated by material evidence. For instance, the only quarters left at all intact in the cities of Bitlis and Van are Armenian quarters ... while the Musulman quarters were completely destroyed."

Niles and Sutherland were fortified by American and German missionaries on the spot in Van. American Clarence Ussher reported that Armenians put the Turkish men "to death," and, for days, "They burned and murdered." A German missionary recalled that, "The memory of these entirely helpless Turkish women, defeated and at the mercy of the [Armenians] belongs to the saddest recollections from that time."

A March 23, 1920, letter of Col. Charles Furlong, an Army intelligence officer and U.S. Delegate to the Paris Peace Conference, to President Woodrow Wilson elaborated: "We hear much, both truth and gross exaggeration of Turkish massacres of Armenians, but little or nothing of the Armenian massacres of Turks. ... The recent so-called Marash massacres [of Armenians] have not been substantiated. In fact, in the minds of many who are familiar with the situation, there is a grave question whether it was not the Turk who suffered at the hands of the Armenian and French armed contingents which were known to be occupying that city and vicinity. ... Our opportunity to gain the esteem and respect of the Muslim world ... will depend much on whether America hears Turkey's untrammeled voice and evidence which she has never succeeded in placing before the Court of Nations."

The United States neglected Col. Furlong's admonition in 1920, and again last Wednesday. Nothing seems to have changed from those days, when Christian lives were more precious than the lives of the "infidels."

Justin McCarthy of the University of Louisville concluded that a staggering 2.5 million Anatolian Muslims died in World War I and the Turkish War of Independence. More than 1 million died in the Six Provinces in Eastern Anatolia, as Armenians with the help of Russia's invading armies sought to reclaim their historical homeland.

In contrast, best contemporaneous estimates place the number of Armenians who died in the war and its aftermath at between 150,000 and 600,000. The Armenian death count climbed to 1.5 million over the years on the back of political clout and propaganda.

The committee voiced horror over the Armenian suffering, but said nothing about the suffering Armenians inflicted on the Muslim population. Nor did the committee deplore the 60 years of Armenian terrorism in the Ottoman capital Istanbul, including assassination of the Armenian patriarch and an attempted assassination of the sultan as he was leaving prayer. Armenian terror was exported to the U.S. mainland and Europe by fanatics who murdered over 70 Turkish diplomats, three of them in Los Angeles and one honorary consul general in Boston.

Mourad Topalian, erstwhile head of the Armenian National Committee of America, a lead lobbying group behind the resolution and major campaign contributor to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other members, was sentenced to 36 months in prison for complicity in a conspiracy to bomb the Turkish mission at the United Nations. Yet Toplain has escaped a terrorist label by either Armenian-Americans or their echo chambers in Congress.

The home of the late Professor Stanford Shaw of the University of California-Los Angeles was firebombed in retaliation for his academic courage in disputing the Armenian genocide claim. Like Benito Mussolini, Armenians believe truth is an assertion at the head of a figurative bayonet.

In parts of Europe, disbelief in the Armenian genocide allegation is a crime on par with Holocaust denial. But the Holocaust was proven before the Nuremburg Tribunal with the trappings of due process. Armenians, in contrast, have forgone bringing their genocide allegation before the International Court of Justice because it is unsupported by historical facts.

In contrast to open Ottoman archives, significant Armenian archives remain closed to conceal evidence of Armenian terrorism and massacres.

If the resolution's proponents had done their homework and put aside religious bigotry, they would have reached the same conclusion as author and Professor Bernard Lewis of Princeton University: "[T]he point that was being made was that the massacre of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was the same as what happened to Jews in Nazi Germany and that is a downright falsehood. What happened to the Armenians was the result of a massive Armenian armed rebellion against the Turks, which began even before war broke out, and continued on a larger scale."

Brian Ardouny of the Armenian Assembly of America in a videotaped interview for a documentary on the Armenian Revolt clucked: "We don't need to prove the genocide historically, because it has already been accepted politically." Congress should reject that cynicism in defense of historical truth.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For your consideration, from the Washington Times. Hopefully, the fact that this does not agree with your perspective will not close your mind to other facts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article published Oct 16, 2007
Armenian crime amnesia?

October 16, 2007

Bruce Fein - Armenian crimes against humanity and war crimes against the Ottoman Turkish and Kurdish populations of eastern and southern Anatolia during World War I and its aftermath have been forgotten amidst congressional preoccupation with placating the vocal and richly financed Armenian lobby.

Last Wednesday, the Armenians hectored members of the House International Relations Committee by a 27-21 vote into passing a counterfactual resolution convicting the Ottoman Empire and its successor state, the Republic of Turkey, of genocide. A historically supportable resolution would have condemned massacres against Armenians with the same vigor, as it should have condemned massacres by Armenians against the innocent Muslim populations of the crumbling Ottoman Empire.

Capt. Emory Niles and Arthur Sutherland, on an official 1919 U.S. mission to eastern Anatolia, reported: "In the entire region from Bitlis through Van to Bayezit, we were informed that the damage and destruction had been done by the Armenians, who, after the Russians retired, remained in occupation of the country and who, when the Turkish army advanced, destroyed everything belonging to the Musulmans. Moreover, the Armenians are accused of having committed murder, rape, arson and horrible atrocities of every description upon the Musulman population. At first, we were most incredulous of these stories, but we finally came to believe them, since the testimony was absolutely unanimous and was corroborated by material evidence. For instance, the only quarters left at all intact in the cities of Bitlis and Van are Armenian quarters ... while the Musulman quarters were completely destroyed."

Niles and Sutherland were fortified by American and German missionaries on the spot in Van. American Clarence Ussher reported that Armenians put the Turkish men "to death," and, for days, "They burned and murdered." A German missionary recalled that, "The memory of these entirely helpless Turkish women, defeated and at the mercy of the [Armenians] belongs to the saddest recollections from that time."

A March 23, 1920, letter of Col. Charles Furlong, an Army intelligence officer and U.S. Delegate to the Paris Peace Conference, to President Woodrow Wilson elaborated: "We hear much, both truth and gross exaggeration of Turkish massacres of Armenians, but little or nothing of the Armenian massacres of Turks. ... The recent so-called Marash massacres [of Armenians] have not been substantiated. In fact, in the minds of many who are familiar with the situation, there is a grave question whether it was not the Turk who suffered at the hands of the Armenian and French armed contingents which were known to be occupying that city and vicinity. ... Our opportunity to gain the esteem and respect of the Muslim world ... will depend much on whether America hears Turkey's untrammeled voice and evidence which she has never succeeded in placing before the Court of Nations."

The United States neglected Col. Furlong's admonition in 1920, and again last Wednesday. Nothing seems to have changed from those days, when Christian lives were more precious than the lives of the "infidels."

Justin McCarthy of the University of Louisville concluded that a staggering 2.5 million Anatolian Muslims died in World War I and the Turkish War of Independence. More than 1 million died in the Six Provinces in Eastern Anatolia, as Armenians with the help of Russia's invading armies sought to reclaim their historical homeland.

In contrast, best contemporaneous estimates place the number of Armenians who died in the war and its aftermath at between 150,000 and 600,000. The Armenian death count climbed to 1.5 million over the years on the back of political clout and propaganda.

The committee voiced horror over the Armenian suffering, but said nothing about the suffering Armenians inflicted on the Muslim population. Nor did the committee deplore the 60 years of Armenian terrorism in the Ottoman capital Istanbul, including assassination of the Armenian patriarch and an attempted assassination of the sultan as he was leaving prayer. Armenian terror was exported to the U.S. mainland and Europe by fanatics who murdered over 70 Turkish diplomats, three of them in Los Angeles and one honorary consul general in Boston.

Mourad Topalian, erstwhile head of the Armenian National Committee of America, a lead lobbying group behind the resolution and major campaign contributor to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other members, was sentenced to 36 months in prison for complicity in a conspiracy to bomb the Turkish mission at the United Nations. Yet Toplain has escaped a terrorist label by either Armenian-Americans or their echo chambers in Congress.

The home of the late Professor Stanford Shaw of the University of California-Los Angeles was firebombed in retaliation for his academic courage in disputing the Armenian genocide claim. Like Benito Mussolini, Armenians believe truth is an assertion at the head of a figurative bayonet.

In parts of Europe, disbelief in the Armenian genocide allegation is a crime on par with Holocaust denial. But the Holocaust was proven before the Nuremburg Tribunal with the trappings of due process. Armenians, in contrast, have forgone bringing their genocide allegation before the International Court of Justice because it is unsupported by historical facts.

In contrast to open Ottoman archives, significant Armenian archives remain closed to conceal evidence of Armenian terrorism and massacres.

If the resolution's proponents had done their homework and put aside religious bigotry, they would have reached the same conclusion as author and Professor Bernard Lewis of Princeton University: "[T]he point that was being made was that the massacre of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was the same as what happened to Jews in Nazi Germany and that is a downright falsehood. What happened to the Armenians was the result of a massive Armenian armed rebellion against the Turks, which began even before war broke out, and continued on a larger scale."

Brian Ardouny of the Armenian Assembly of America in a videotaped interview for a documentary on the Armenian Revolt clucked: "We don't need to prove the genocide historically, because it has already been accepted politically." Congress should reject that cynicism in defense of historical truth.

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Dear Yabanci,

I admire your ability to interpret and reengage the discussion into a workable solution. It may seem somewhat idealistic at first glance but let's consider the possibilities: I will explain from a personal perspective.

I live in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. In the part of the city (called a borough, population: 77,391) that I live in, we have 73 different nationalities at the last count (census 2001). We all coexist peacefully and cooperate toward common aspirations and goals. Our multicultural and very colourful community is very peaceful, very tolerant and thriving. We all speak French, English and most often a third language, that in my case is Greek. Most of us, like myself (having immigrated at the age of 11) were born in our ancestral countries.
I have acquaintances of all walks of life and backgrounds (and yes, as shocking as it might be for some, Turkish too). During my university days I also dated a Turkish girl who was one of the most intelligent and beautiful women I had ever had the pleasure to know. Though I must admit that we did not meet each other's families, and cannot speak for her family, I am certain that my family would have accepted her as the person she was rather than the 'Turkish' person she was.

Back to my community:
We see each other everywhere we go and I have had very interesting interpersonal connections even with those that are not part of my immediate professional or social list of colleagues and friends. At our children's soccer games or baller rehearsals, we, the adults, (being idle) will often talk about a variety of topics including current events, local issues, birthday parties, etc, etc... Often we will ask where we each come from but only in amazement in our diversity. I have never encountered the racist remarks I have read by some in this discussion within my community. I have to say that I am very proud of that. Does it happen in private? I cannot know, but I teach my daughter to be tolerant, accepting and sharing. I am also on a mission however to teach her about her heritage and to feel pride in being Greek as she feels pride in being Canadian.

While I cannot make claim to any perfection in my community, since our borough has it's problems like most other places, it is a known fact that our crime rate is lower than most places we can be compared to. Why is this the case, in contrast to communities that are more homogeneous? I do not know.

I believe that in the case of my community, since we are so multicultural, we see each other as people rather than as people of 'National Interests'. Can you imagine the chaos resulting from intolerance and racist views if we all acted out our need to "project our selves" (as AMVIENNAVA would say) and assert our 'National Interests'?

While we discuss here intellectually the whys and wherefores of the matter of genocide, and seek to prevent a serious human violation from resulting on account of the 'National Interest' of one group against another, we forget the simplicity of the solution that is within our grasp.

I believe that Yabanci has made the strongest argument for tolerance and he is right, it starts with the individual and is transmitted outward from there. Does the MLK model work? I am no sociologist but I think I am sort of living it within my community, not only on a personal level but also communally.

Speaking for myself, I came upon the article by Mr. Konstandaras quite by accident and wanted to see what the spin on the topic would be. Given the adherence to excellence in the Washington Post, I knew it would be a tight-rope act to push a 'Greek Nationalist Interest' while addressing this very serious matter. I was so pleasantly surprised that I had to comment and as I read on, I had to keep commenting. I must commend the high level of serious and committed need by so many to discuss openly and hopefully find solutions to this problem. Though I am somewhat pessimistic about the outcome of the political manoeuvring on all sides, I must admit that I am overjoyed with the very sincere need by a lot of us to make a difference.

I am curious about what the end result would be if the multicultural nature of my community were to be communicated out of my community, maybe globally. How do we bypass the issues of 'National Interest' we harbour so rigidly like a crutch? How does the message of tolerance and acceptance get filtered out of the micro-environments we inhabit as individuals and into the international community as a whole?

I am sad that our Turkish friends have left the discussion and I sincerely hope they are still reading because I am a strong advocate of the need to ask the right questions in order to shed the misconceptions we have. I hope that our search as individuals will be read with an open mind by those who's views are tainted by their nurturing a 'Nationalist Interest' to the exclusion of their humanity. I believe that we all have a sense of right but we need to be asking ourselves what it is.

I would like to think that we have not shown ourselves too quick to knock down the various ways some of our opponents have tried to protect their beliefs. I know for myself that I have lost my patience a few times but I hope the result was not offencive to anyone.

I hope that I have not behaved like a bully though I know of at least one person who thinks I have. I hope that somehow our message of inclusion will be heard by just one person in a position to make a difference. I hope we have made a difference. I would be disappointed that all of our efforts have had no effect outside of our discussion and ourselves.

Yabanci, my friend, I know that your efforts are not simplistic or idealistic and I hope my sharing about my community is proof.

I commend you very highly. I would like your post to be featured. I think you deserve it and much more.

Peace!!

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Three branches of government - legislative, judicial, and executive, each has its own role. Making judgement on a case is not the role of the legislative branch. End of the story.

212s.com: You are correct about Hitler, with 1 exception: He was correct about the Armenians.=

Paul,

I admit everything you said is valuable to this debate, with just one exception: your quote from Hitler. Hitler has never known to be a role model for anything. Why do you want to quote from him? Can he give you any credibility?

Spiridon and Yabanci,

Please accept my thanks and respect for all your well-reasoned comments. Not that I always agree, but I commend you on your quest for reason and dialog. And, Yabanci, I agree completely with your views on MLK, one of the greatest Americans - nay, one of the greatest humans - that ever was.

Keep it coming!

Arminius

p.s to Hopeful: Yes, the Red Sox Nation is doing well, but will they get past Cleveland, the best balanced team in MLB? And if they do, how will they fare against the totally on-fire Rockies? Any way you look at it, we got world-class baseball coming!

Vox,

If you're out there, I'd love to see you return to the dialogue and benefit us with more of your contributions!

-Yabanci

In the last few days this collection of responses to Mr. Konstandarashas article has really evolved nicely, thanks to many.

I'd like to turn your attention back to a post by Vox on October 15, 2007 10:52 PM (about half way up this page from hear.) His is a great story that reminds us that very practical solutions to this matter are often done on an individual and personal level. Vox and his/her Turkish friend reach out to each other, and now Vox is talking about how she can't wait to teach his daughter about NOT hating and resenting others. What a powerful conversation that must have been for Vox and his Turkish colleague! I don't want to indulge in the sentimental appeal of the scene, but emphasize the usefulness of such disciplined and emotionally mature conversations.

Vox's story brings to mind Martin Luther King's civil rights project. Martin Luther King brought his belief in the power of forgiveness into the political realm. I cannot overstate the impressiveness of his endeavors. Talk about a multi-disciplinary approach. One does not need to be a Christian or even an American to identify with this political achievement. The multi-layered strength of his method transformed a nation that was in great need of solutions. While the context of U.S. race conflict is quite different than the Armenian-Turkish hardships, the MLK model is relevant. Its usefulness is found in the complexity of his approach: it included historical clarifications, socio-psychological prescriptions, diverse philosophical traditions, political action, spirituality and secular appeal. He recognized that pursuing any one solution risked further alienation, which he worked very hard to avoid.

Martin Luther King's project was simultaneously pursued both from the top down, and on a grass roots level. I find that international movements to achieve Turkish acknoweldgment currently suffers a fatal weakness that MLK admirably avoided: while external political pressure is put on the Turkish government to acknowledge genocide, we too often overlook the need to effectively engage deniers on a more personal level. That is why I've been so insistant on turning the conversation towards trying to better understand what difficulties Turks face when reconsidering their own complicity in genocidal denial. Acknowledgement will not be achieved from the top down only. MLK recognized that white America was suffering many psychological and spiritual injuries from their long standing oppression of blacks. He knew that he could not achieve change without offering whites psychological and spiritual safety to confront those injuries.

Many advocates of acknowledgment are so confident in the historical evidence that they overlook the other opportunities to engage deniers as human beings and help resolve the injuries. Perhaps agreeing on the history need not be the immediate goal. Rather, agreement on the history will be an outcome of achieving a different kind of peace. This collection of responses shows evidence of many missed opportunities to really reach out to Turks on a grass roots level. A forum such as this provides unprecedented opportunities to reach out to communities worlds away. What an amazing opportunity! I am confident that many victims have the emotional intelligence to reach out to one another. My approach has been to appeal to that intelligence.

Spiridon, I appreciate your comment that I've taken a humanitarian approach, but what I really hope to do is illustrate the practicality of my arguments. Yes my observations put socio-pyschology, social anthropology, and a bit of humanist sentimentality to work, but I have to insist that my claims are not overally idealistic. We have an abundance of examples of the effectiveness of dialogues that achieve the complexity that human complexity demands: from movements such as Martin Luther King's, to functional everyday human interactions.

-Yabanci

I have found something interesting. Right after the “genocide”, Armenian won a large piece of land in Anatolia from the Ottoman Empire. But the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist after that. So they never got that land.

If they had really got that land, they probably would have considered it a prize they won for the war they fought and would never claim to have been through a genocide.

They could have made any claim of genocide when they won since they did have the power to win such a large piece of land.

It is hard to believe that a winning party was a subject of a genocide.

1914: 2 million Armenians living in what is now Turkey.

2007: 40 000 and 70 000 Armenians are living in Turkey.

1914: several hundred thousand Assyrians were living in what is now Turkey.

2007: 5000 Assyrians living in Turkey.

Where are they all gone now?

1 million Turkish victims? Well, throwing around numbers, I guess. The Turkish government keeps it at 500 000, I have seen claimes of almost 2 million. One wonders how a small ethnic minority, even with outside help, would be able to do this against a large majority with a whole state apparatus behind them.

What Armenians were doing in Nagorno Karabach is an entire other matter, which Armenians now have to answer and which doens't take away the Turkish responisbility for the Armenian and Assyrian genocides.

Paul & Spidon: A good summary by Paul, including mention of the Assyrians. By the way, and excellent account of the treatment they enjoyed is 'Not Even My Name' by Thea Hallo.

The current event son the Kurds are truly interesting and will be aggravating, if you will, to watch. My brief observation, if you will, is:

1. Turkey covets the oil aroung Kirkuk;

2. The Kurds in Iraq are our only 'success' (for the record, the whole Iraq situation is a fiasco);

3. The US wants the Kurds, under the guise of PJAK, to help create instability in Iran - the PJAK are being trained by the US and Israel;

4. The PJAK are 'cousins' of the PKK;

5. The Kurdish villages (in Turkey that is) that the Turks destroyed in the 90's are still in ruins and not populated. A consequence of fanaticism in looking at one's history I believe - one of the reasons I believe that Turkey will benefit greatly by accepting what happened to the Armenians and afterwards the rest of the Christian population;

6. The EU obviously has given up on the Turkish application for membership, otherwise they would be vocal about the situation - instead they issued a very weak warning not to invade Iraq;

All-in-all, it smells like more war is in the air.

WOW!

Paul, your analysis is impressive. I am truly delighted that we have you in the discussion. Thank you also for the more factual corrections of my quote of the lunatic perpetrator you quoted.

AMViennaVA and a few others have made the points necessary to counter what we have been reading by the historical revisionists to the debate so far and I believe the more information we have on the historical aspects, the more we affirm our concern about the present ongoing nationalist intentions by the descendants of those who's crimes are at issue. Certainly the Kurdish matter must be addressed very quickly since the time to act and prevent yet another irrational act of human suffering is now.

I am delighted you have raised the matter of the Assyrians. I have to admit that I am shamed in not having discussed the inhuman treatment of this great and ancient nation since they are so bound up on the whole debate of the Armenians and Kurds. The descendants of this great ancient civilization are now spread throughout a region encompassing Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran. Just for the record, whatever violence we should expect toward the Kurdish people in the next little while, will also result in an untold suffering of the Assyrian people who also occupy roughly the same little piece of muddy and bloodied rock in Iraq.

Last year I came across a website that has answered a lot of questions for me about this great nation that cannot be forgotten due to our lack of attention. Indeed, we must admit that their few numbers and lack of voice in the West has precluded their isolation and the lack of attention we have shown to their cause.

Anyone who wants to learn more about their ongoing struggle can go to this website:

http://www.aina.org/

Paul, you are a great voice of reason and insight. I thank you again for your contribution. I hope to read more from you in the discussion.

Sincerely,
Spiridon,
Montreal Canada

Some facts to your attention:
1. 1828
Occupation south Caucasus by russians. Hay's (armenians) from Iran were welcomed to settle in the newly resettled russion empire lands. Russian government began a centrally planned and systematically executed campaign to annihilate the Azerbaijanian people from their ancient homeland. First hays appear in Karabakh and Irevan land of the Noth Azerbajan.
2. 1914-1915
Ocupation easten regions of Ottoman emprie by russian troops.
Over one million turks where killed by local hay(armenian) gangs.
Russian archives are still closed for analysing this facts.
2.1917-1918
Irevan region of Russian empire with mostly 90% azerbaijan population
where transformed by bolsheviks Red army to Hayastan (Armenia) Soviet Republic. Now there live only armenians.
3.1947-1948
Million azerbijanians where forcily displaced and thousands killed by Stalin. There lands where settled by hays(armenians) from Iran.
4. 1989-1994
Million karabakhians where displaced by soviet-russian troops and hays (armenian) gangs.
Given hay's and russian's history of agression against Azerbaijan can't be dismissed.

Why you don't go beyond recognition of the Azerbaijanian Genocide by hays (armenians)?

May be you are basing arguments solely on your self-interest.

Such wrongfull pro-armenian information only will encourage
the armenian side to continue aggresive steps against history, law and human rights.

Hayastan has recieved more than $1.5billion in military aid from US and much more from Russia.

For those still in denial, I'd like to give a few quotes:

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, at the opening of the Turkish parliament on 24 April 1920: "The massacres against the Armenians were a shameful act."

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, 1926 on an interview with the Los Angeles Examiner: "These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule"

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, 1919 in a conversation with major general Harbord, head of the American military mission to Armenia: disaproving of the Armenian massacres, he quoted the number of 800.000 victims.

Cemal, Ottoman interior minister at the end of the war: 800.000 Armenians were actually killed.

Apart from these obviously unbiased reports, there were numerous reports from American, but especially German and Austrian ( wartime allies of the Ottoman empire) witnesses, among them German and Austrian military advisers.

Several officials were in postwar trials in Turkey, during the years 1919-1920, were convicted, some even executed for the atrocities commited on Armenians and others. Some of these tribunals, military and others, didn't finish their job, some did.

I never see any remarks going into these trials, quotes from Ataturk etc.

In this exchange of posts, you can see a lot of incoherent remarks of the negationists. To give a few: Greek and Armenians and other "enemies of the Turks" are by definition disqualified to write sensible things about this question, and are by definition biased against teh Turks. Well, in that case, one should follow one's own logic and realize that Turks are by defintion biased when wrtiing about their own past. So should all your comments be dismissed?

Accroding negationists, the Turks offer to open their archives so that all can study them, and they claim they are the only ones to do so. Well, German, Austrian, American, British, French and even Armenian archives o this matter have always been open. There are no legal restrictions anymore - because this all hapened so long time ago - on Western archives. As a result, all these mentioned archives are studied and used extensively. The only problem until now was the Turkish archives, were it was not always possible to get admission.

The Turks were stabbed in the back (be carefull when people start talking about being stabbed in the back) while they had to defend their country to the rest of the world who were trying to destroy them. Of course, failing to mention that Turkey signed a treaty with Germany after the war already started and that they were the first, with German help, to attack Russia in the Black Sea, puts this portrayal of the Ottoman victim of foreign aggression in a whole new perspective.

According to some negationists, the Ottoman empire was in no state to commit genocide because they were attacked on al fronts. According to others, the Armenians were committing large scale attrocities. In other words, a complete state apparatus with an army and police force at it's disposal was not able to do what a minority ethnic group, treated as second class citizens, of at best 10 % of the population was accused of doing: mass scale ethnic cleansing. Sounds very convincing, make up your mind which line of defence you want to take, will you.

According to what some negationists are writing, former adversaries of the Ottoman empire are, under pressure of rich Armenian lobbies, formally recognizing the Armenian genocide. So how come former ally Germany, with a huge Turkish presence, very good political ties with Turkey and hardly any Armenians living in the country officially recognised the genocide?

According to negationists, Armenians got what they deserved by betraying the Ottoman empire wheere they lived in harmony for hundreds of years. Odd behaviour, I would say, especially because it would just have meant changing the Ottman autocrat for the Russian autocrat. So, if even there was a mass uprising (which was by the way disputed by the Turkish prosecutor in the aformentioned tribunals) by the Armenians, there must have been a reason for this. Maybe this had something to do with the pogroms and massacres taking place afainst the Armenians at the end of the 19th century. Or maybe it was something in the Armenian genes. Which brings me to the next observation:

According to statements made above: Armenians form a powerful international lobby. They are able to buy support in several countries and use that support to hijack the politics of any given country and direct it against Turkey. They manipulate the world in believing they were victims of genocide, but instead committed huge massacres themselves. In the end all wthey want is monetary compensation by the Turks and a part of Turkey. In the end only the Armenian greed is responsible for all this uproar. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Especially if you would change the word Armenina by Jew. I mean, this is the kind of argument which is played out here: pure and simple anti-Armenian racism.

There is one question which I would like to see discussed as well. Prior to the World War 1, there were several hundreds of thousands of Assyrians living in what is now Turkey. They were another christian group. Now there are still 5000 of them. Would anyone care to explain me where they all went? Indeed, there was not only the Armenian genocide, there was also the Assyrian genocide. You don't here much about them because now they are a tiny people, spread over several countries without their own state. Their fate is nonetheless as tragic as the Armenian fate.

I'd like to finish wiht a quote of one of the leading experts on genocide. Not a scholar but a perpetrator. This quote is just to put things in perspective of the real meaning of this debate: "kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language" and concluded by asking "Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?". This quote was made one week before the invasion of Poland in a speech to Wehrmacht generals by Adolf Hitler.

MJC @ October 18, 2007 8:10 PM: You posted 'I think that AMViennaVA did not respond because he/she doesn't have a response to my points.'

I posted @ October 18, 2007 9:50 AM "I read the post by 'MJC', and chose to ignore it. It merits no response. That poster is only projecting himself and accuses others of what he sees in himself."

The reason I ignored it is because among other things you made assumptions about me. That always degenerates to personal attacks.

I think there will be a big war which will start in norten iraq and will end in newyork.
Türks can move the war beyond the ocean.
And all the behaviours of u.s make Türks to think that.

The Red Sox are still bringing us good baseball!

Dear JSMITH,

Thank you for your clarifications. I can speak for myself only and say that I did not believe a word from JUSTICEFORALL since I know the history, but as Greek I did not want to get into that kind of a discussion with this person.

I am glad that you, AMViennaVA and many others have made some but not all of the clarifications. Your clarifications complete the picture.

I agree that based on the lie one can be labelled a liar but we have agreed in this discussion to omit cultural references when we point out these types of transgressions.

The facts speak for themselves and as you can see, when the hard questions were posed that would make those who lie have to defend them on a personal level they disappeared from this discussion.

Thank you once again for the historical corrections.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

It is the Turks who slaughtered the remaining Greeks in ANATOLIA at the end of WWI, not the other way around. I wish I had seen these comments when they were originally posted to correct the GROSS INACCURACIES of some obvious TURKISH LIARS in this blog. My god, your kind (notice I don't say you're HUMANS) SLAUGHTER innocent civilians and your descendants LIE about it?

HOW DISGRACEFUL!!!!

It is the Turks who slaughtered the remaining Greeks in ANATOLIA at the end of WWI, not the other way around. I wish I had seen these comments when they were originally posted to correct the GROSS INACCURACIES of some obvious TURKISH LIARS in this blog. My god, your kind (notice I don't say you're HUMANS) SLAUGHTER innocent civilians and your descendants LIE about it?

HOW DISGRACEFUL!!!!

JUSTICEFORALL is VERY INCORRECT in his/her assertion. It is the GREEK CYPRIOTS who were slaughtered by TURKS in the TURKISH INVASION OF CYPRUS in 1974, not the other way around.

In fact, Turkish troops remain in northern Cyprus, in violation of international law.

JUSTICEFORALL is VERY INCORRECT in his/her assertion. It is the GREEK CYPRIOTS who got slaughtered by TURKS in the TURKISH INVASION OF CYPRUS in 1974, not the other way around.

In fact, Turkish troops remain in northern Cyprus, in violation of international law.

Dear 212s.com

Please forgive me, I have not responded to you before since I felt that the topic of your discussion was off topic to the issue being covered. I have read Yibanci's comments and have to agree with him on the issues of formal declaration of genocide. On a personal level I believe that there is reason to believe your charge has some weight if we can get the formalities addressed.

One matter you keep bringing up that is awkward, is the comparison between the Armenian matter versus the Vietnamese. I have to tell you that the two are not similar in so many ways, aside from the very obvious fact that in both cases there was a deplorable amount of human suffering.

One thing that concerns me though is the conclusions you reach from your comparison. I find this irrational and have to admit that it is one of the reasons I have not responded to you sooner. I get the sense that you are dealing with a great amount of anger and as is often the case with victims of any crime, this anger is projected away from the perpetrator and often as a result of anger against one self, this anger is then projected to a victim you see similar to yourself.

Victoria quoted you as saying:
"Stopping more bloodshed is more important than settling old scores."
I think that when you start to consider what you said carefully, you will see that supporting a position that may prevent a known state sponsored pursuit of indignant acts against humanity may help you find some resolve in your pain as well.

In supporting the cause to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, you are sending the message to the state that harbours guilt for this act that you will not tolerate an incursion into Iraq to pursue this option of crime against humanity yet again.

****
One more thing:
In case you are unaware, Kaing Guek Eav, the former Khmer Rouge prison chief, also known as Dutch, will be the first defendant in the first tribunal of it's cause held on behalf of Cambodia's U.N.-backed genocide tribunal. I am not sure of the date but if you do a search you will find more information.

I think this is encouraging in that it sends out the message that the world is not sleeping while it is researching the historical data to support these claims.

Hoping you find peace,
Sincerely,
Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Hello World!

In this case, it is so simple to make a correct conclusion, even millions with their biased minds could react fooly agains you as by following the truthful and scientific format/procedure as suggested below:

No any early "PRO" or "CON"! no any early "CONDONE" or "CONDEMN"! or fallen into a naive "BEING BIASED FOR PERSONAL REASONS"! but when a "conclusion" or a "judgement" or a "comdemn" or "condone" issue can be made, it should be based absolutely scientifically and truthfuly and unbiasedly! then you with your clear and unbiased mind just feel free to go ahead and sticking with your faithful CONSCIENCE to judge a fact, a real problem, a crime, a world mistake, or a human sin, a mass-murdering, a genocide, etc., and you can immediately and comfortably conclude clearly and precisely as that it is Right or Wrong!. In other words, this is simply a pure, scientific way for judging anything properly, such as a problem or fact without making human dumb mistake at all! and you also should forget all sorts of "crying fooled" that may be on your way! to cheer you! or even ripping you aparts! by human behaviour as usual!

For simplity, the answer as "YES" or "No" to the question: "The U.S Congress is going to pass one of those resolutions condemning another country for its pasts: this time, Turkey for Armenian massacres" that it can be frankly and correctly to answer as:

1/ During the past, if Turkey did commit its world criminal as massacred en-mass Armenians or genocide, then Turkey must be treated as the criminal state as the answer is: "YES" for complying with the world conscience and world justices and laws and orders! and it is absolutely fair to all!

2/ Otherwise, if Turkey didn't commit a such very serious human crime as massacre or mass-murdering or genocide then no one has any reason to condemn Turkey at all! and it is damned fair to all as well!
And that's all! and it's 100% fair to all concerned folks! as Turkey and Armenia and all these folks!
Pls. do not condone crimes of any reasons! and all judgements must be fair and frank and scientifically and all concerned folks must behave as civilized, unbiased citizens and nations no matter what!
In addition, and importantly, no one have enough times to think back and forth for a fact or world problem! such as with this issue! due to this world has many more bigger problems and are much much more urgent! as world problems than this one!

Make senses? world folks? Astly pls do simplify thing more than making a problem to become too complicated to solve as it should not be!

Thanks

conscience-to-the-world

Dear AMViennaVA, I want to thank you for your historical contributions to the discussions. I have been following them with great interest and learning a lot, especially about the money trail to buy friendship with Turkey. Your sarcastic humour has made the dry details so much more fun to read as well.
I appreciate your restraint with MJC and agree with your assessment that he is projecting himself, but he gave me such a great opportunity to introduce some concepts to the discussion that needed exposure. I hope that he was not too offended to ask himself some questions about his position.

Dear Yabanci, Thank you for your kind words. I also appreciate your rational and genuinely tolerant, humanitarian position. I love how you organize and clarify your ideas and make the concepts more readable than my didactic approach. I believe that the message we are attempting to make clear is a tough sell since an unchecked nationalist agenda is pretty hard to shed. It also takes a lot of strength to stand alone and voice unpopular views. Of course Fox Network does not help.

I do not blame MJC for his views, they are easier than challenging the status quo, and safer, unless he poses questions that counter his position. I was interested in knowing if I could engage him as a person rather than the sum of his prepackaged and preconceived notions, backed by his commitment to his political affiliation. My guess is that he is not ready to accept the fact that he can have an opinion that he has formulated all by himself.

MJC, just for the record, so that we can do away with the cultural issues: I am a Greek Canadian and hope that my comments will not be read from that narrow perspective. I do not believe that I have given anyone reason to believe that I am partisan. That it could happen is a fact that needs addressing but I know that this would be very evident if it was the case.

Friend, I am sorry that you believe that there are class bullies in this discussion and I hope that you do not continue to behave like one either. I want to say that age is not an example of wisdom but I will grant you that your serving your nation is a great and honourable thing. I too have served in the Canadian Armed Forces and know the value of protecting my country's rights and freedoms. I believe that serving aside, we need not be blinded by duty to 'National Interest' when it conflicts with our humanity. This very premise was addressed in the Nuremberg trials and I hope will be addressed further when trials for Serbian and Rwandan criminals will be heard. We have seen a couple of cases in South America, and Serbia, already.

One thing I want to impress upon you however is that your way of inventing historical facts to support your position of 'National Interest' expresses hypocrisy and it reflects poorly upon other Americans. I wish that you would show the restraint that AMViennaVA has shown toward you.

Friend, you say "Those who really make a difference are out acting on their beliefs."

If you are anywhere close to Ottawa, Ontario Canada on October 27, I invite you as my guest to a rally at our Nation's Capital to protest a recent decision by our government to accept the name of the MACEDONIA for the breakaway state previously known as THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA (F.Y.R.O.M.). I promise that it will be a great history lesson for you if you accept my offer.

Spiridon
Montreal, Canada

I think that AMViennaVA did not respond because he/she doesn't have a response to my points.

The thing is that no one knows the person behind the posts. That makes it easy for some of you, because you don't have to establish any credibility, you just have to be articulate and you think you have won an argument. No arguments are really won or lost here. I have been stereotyped by posters here because I defend America's relationship with Turkey. I have probably been around a lot longer than most of you, I have served my country, but I have also protested against my country's actions back in the 60s and 70s. I have lived all over the world in the last 30 or so years. You should welcome the difference, not just from me, but from all the posters. Yet a few posters act like the class bullies.

Bottom line is that no one really cares what you think, any more than you really care what I think. You are not changing anyone's point of view. But post on. THose who really make a difference are out acting on their beliefs.

Dear 212s.com

For accuracy, I will quote you:

"You guys feel that it is a genocide because you have never been through anything near that."

I ask: How do you know what any of us have been through? Do you really want to make such baseless assumptions part of your argument?

Some of us are working on very clear definitions of genocide. Pay attention to this part: Genocide is a legal term clearly defind in the UN Convention. One needn't compare the Armenian-Turkish issue to any other world tragedy in order to make conclusions on whether or not it qualifies as genocide. Genocide is not something that is determined from a relativist perspective.
You've been making the bulk of your arguments based on comparisons to other issues that just aren't relavant. IT'S NOT A RELATIVIST ISSUE. I don't know how many other ways I can explain this to you again.

This is silly and denies the reality that genocides get remembered and exploited for further political gain whenever survivors gain their own political power somewhere else.

I'm sorry about what happened in Armenia, I really am. But it happened just about everywhere in the 20th century and is still going on today. I actually think it distracts us from the real horrors of genocide and mass murder in general to focus on politically celebrating those that happened to minorities that gain political influence after immigration. Let the historians research and report on history--the U.S. Congress should not have such a role and certainly doesn't have the qualifications.

Coming from an oppressed minority myself and being a product of a diaspora, I certainly condemn any form of genocide. However, it is really questionable, given the U.S.'s "Manifest Destiny" and the treatment of Native Americans, for U.S. politicians to be weighing in on historical wrongs in a "holier than thou manner".

Coming from an oppressed minority myself and being a product of a diaspora, I certainly condemn any form of genocide. However, it is really questionable, given the U.S.'s "Manifest Destiny" and the treatment of Native Americans, for U.S. politicians to be weighing in on historical wrongs in a "holier than thou manner".

Coming from an oppressed minority myself and being a product of a diaspora, I certainly condemn any form of genocide. However, it is really questionable, given the U.S.'s "Manifest Destiny" and the treatment of Native Americans, for U.S. politicians to be weighing in on historical wrongs in a "holier than thou manner".

Coming from an oppressed minority myself and being a product of a diaspora, I certainly condemn any form of genocide. However, it is really questionable, given the U.S.'s "Manifest Destiny" and the treatment of Native Americans, for U.S. politicians to be weighing in on historical wrongs in a "holier than thou manner".

Coming from an oppressed minority myself and being a product of a diaspora, I certainly condemn any form of genocide. However, it is really questionable, given the U.S.'s "Manifest Destiny" and the treatment of Native Americans, for U.S. politicians to be weighing in on historical wrongs in a "holier than thou manner".

Coming from an oppressed minority myself and being a product of a diaspora, I certainly condemn any form of genocide. However, it is really questionable, given the U.S.'s "Manifest Destiny" and the treatment of Native Americans, for U.S. politicians to be weighing in on historical wrongs in a "holier than thou manner".

excellent article 212s

i especially loved this statement-

"Stopping more bloodshed is more important than settling old scores."

You guys feel that it is a genocide because you have never been through anything near that.

Read about my family's experience and you will come to a different conclusion.

The link is http://www.212s.com/?p=119

The crime of murder is categorized in several categories: first degree, second degree, manslaughter, etc. So is massacre. Before we are able to find any proof of an intent to wipe out an entire population, we will just have to call it a massacre. Judges do not convict people of crimes without proof.

A lot of Vietnamese lost their life on their journey out of Vietnam after the Vietnam War ended. A lot of Mexicans died on their way to America. A lot of Africans died on their journey to Europe. Who will take responsibility for all of these?

Vietnam expelled Chinese in north Vietnam when a war broke out between China and Vietnam. Chinese in north Vietnam fled by boats over the sea. Who guaranteed their safety? Who ever accuses the Vietnamese government of genocide?

All you can say is that they were irresponsible. You can ask a government to pay for their negligence. But you do not go so far as to accuse them of genocide.

i see the characterizations swing wildly from one extreme to the other-

might i suggest that people post references (and links) to their historical perspectives?

it lends to the credibility to the contentions, and winnows the dramatic generalizations from the
more rational

Spiridon, MJC and Amviennava,

Spiridon's response to MJC was not only polite but intelligent and admirable. Reading all of these responses, it has been interesting to observe how often contributors fall back on tragically stereotyped characterizations of each other in order to dismiss competing arguments. How many times do we see posters argue such examples: "Turks are ignorant...Armenians are conniving liars...Greeks are biased...Americans are arrogant and hypocritical." Of course none of these simplifications accurately depict people's complicated efforts to sort out the tragedies and injuries their countries face. When we look a little closer we see evidence that difficult and fruitful debates about these issues DO go on in all of these communities as people try to work it out. Turkey is not an exception. Turks too struggle with this issue extensively, even though Turksih public faces may seem staunchly unreasonable to many. I will say the same for many Armenians. It is important that we encourage peoples' willingness to struggle with themselves, not put them on the defensive with innaccurate characterizations. Amartya Sen has written a wonderful must-read about this called "Identity and Violence."

When it comes to genocide, doesn't stereoptyping lay the groundwork for the violence? Isn't wrongful and dismissive imaginings of each other how this whole genocide tragedy started? I guess it's not surprising then that we revisit the flawed tendency to use stereotyping to justify our dimsissal and rejection of each other's positions. But such alienation is dangerous, and genocide is the ultimate example of that danger.

What I admired about Spiridon's last post is that he would not indulge in a dismissive anti-American characterization of MJC's argument. Spiridon made this clear by insisting that he would stick to "the polite argument". Unfortunately it's not hard to imagine the impolite argument. I don't value Spiridon's politeness as much as I do value his integrity for adressing MJC as a person, not an unfortunate characterization about what Americans are.

MJC, You have been sufficiently challenged to avoid the stereotype trap, in so many ways. If you are willing to accept the challenge, it's probably the best thing you could do for America's interests.

Amviennava, I'm glad you're appreciating all of this. It is fascinating.

-Yabanci

"In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation." - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The case of "genocide" has not been made in court. So it is not for sure that "genocide" is factual. If it turns out to be not factual, a "genocide" bill could be considered a defamation of Turkey or the Turkish people. And America could become a subject of a lawsuit.

Turkey, please try to find a court where you can sue all these countries that have passed "genocide" resolutions for defamation. Try to make some money from their mistakes.

Spiridon, Friend: I am an American. Of course American interests come first to me, and should be the case with all Americans. And of course I do not believe "my country right or wrong," and when I believed that my country was wrong, I have been on the streets protesting (back in my youth) or pen in hand writing (now that I'm older and can't walk as well). If you really believe that Americnas care what the Canadian reaction is to American national interests (the grin and a shrug)......Ha!

You are seeing everything through the prism of your Greekness. I think Greeks are great, but your eyes and your neutrons get crossed when it comes to discussing Turks and Turkey.

Spidon @October 18, 2007 8:58 AM: I read the post by 'MJC', and chose to ignore it. It merits no response. That poster is only projecting himself and accuses others of what he sees in himself.

That said, I enjoy the exchange that you and Yabanci are having.

Dear MJC,

I have read your post addressed to AMviennaVA. You have accused this person and others in this discussion of showing hatred and "narrow self centred concerns" about "old ethnic issues".

Your depiction on the treatment of the Armenians under the Ottomans would have them living like kings and queens while the noble Ottoman slave mucked it out in the mountainous front lines against the big bad Russian invader while defending himself from his treacherous, though well treated Armenian countrymen.

You then go on to say: (I quote for accuracy)
"...assuming you are an American, you need to leave your narrow self-centered concerns behind and think as an American, putting your nation's interest first. That does not happen with the House Resolution, which puts the intesests of a small slice of America before the national intersets of this country."

Friend, you need to understand that the little planet we all occupy is not ruled by your 'national interests' and despite what the current thinking on the topic is in GOP Washington, I think I am not alone in making the point when I suggest that you start thinking with some sensitivity toward the rest of us.

I can tell you that I am Canadian and the topic of American national interest is often met with a shrug and grin among us. This is the polite response.
I can also tell you that I am of Greek origin and reaction to your foreign policy and 'National Interests' in that country, is met with a less polite response than my kind, Canadian friends will express.

I cannot dispute that you may have a natural allegiance to your national endeavours, (be they foreign or domestic) but to selectively make value judgements on the rest of us to suit your present misguided endeavours is flawed. This is the polite response.
To tell us that we are hateful, and in so saying feel justified to misrepresent the suffering of a people, that were almost extinct by an act of 'National Interest', is plainly hateful on your part in that you say it to preserve your allegiance to your present, and personal 'National Interests' while you justify your actions in the irrationalist manner we have seen many times, over and over, past and present, when those among us seek to justify injustice. Do you see where I am going with this?

Friend, I am not sure you understand the fine point to be made here but it does not really matter what the vote result in the US House is. I have said it again in a previous post and will repeat it here for your benefit: The usefulness of the House Resolution was to make the issue an international matter in a few hours. Many countries have had similar resolutions that were past and the issue is now out in the open so as to allow people like you, to grasp the fine and intricate details, without having to do too much study that involves anything other than your 'National Interests'. This is the polite response.

I would like to point out that your comments are useful in that they illustrate the point in a manner you will grasp and I will quote you again to illustrate my conclusion.

You said:
"...you need to leave your narrow self-centered concerns behind and think as an American, putting your nation's interest first."

Friend, ask yourself what we can infer in your statement if we transposed 'TURK' where you say 'AMERICAN'. I think you know where I am going with this and the conclusion on my part is not necessary in a personal way. This is my polite response.

The issue on an international scale is to examine 'National Interests' when they conflict with the rights of us, as human beings, inclusively and not as units within a 'National Agenda'; both foreign and domestic, to live without harm. If we look at the present Turkish position on Northern Iraq and the Kurdish people we will see an example of the imposition of 'National Interest'. This is a polite response.

Friend, I want you to examine for yourself the resulting question from your statement, (and I quote for accuracy) "I just don't get where all the hatred comes from":
If extermination of a people for a 'National Interest' is not considered hatred then what is it?

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Ottoman Empire consisted of TURK , KURT and ERMENIAN. During the WW1 TURKs AND KURTs saved their country to fight . but Ermenian betray OTTOMAN citizen.
they thought that Russia gived them a country. yes russia gived a country but russia gived them a lot of affliction and pain too.
so. The Ermenian have been cursed by fraternity of anatolian and fraternity of anatolian's nations.and they will be cursed....
First of all Ermenian should excuse...The Turks surely will excuse them after this action..

Nobody innocent in anatolia between 1900 and 1920

Ottoman Empire consisted of TURK , KURT and ERMENIAN. During the WW1 TURKs AND KURTs saved their country to fight . but Ermenian betray OTTOMAN citizen.
they thought that Russia gived them a country. yes russia gived and country but russia gived them affliction, pain too.
so. The Ermenian have been cursed by fraternity of anatolian and fraternity of anatolian's nations.

yesterday the ermenian were pupet of russia and france....
now the ermenian is still pupet of europan country
they are alone and homesick.....

but in ottoman EMpire they were head citizens of ottomans till traitor to their country

What a one sided editorial expected by a Greek journalist. Your opinion goes right out the door becuase its biased. let the historians take care of this issue. Greeks always will have a biased issue on this subject. They simply dont like the Turks.

to AMviennnaVA, yes I responded to you because you responded to me by name in a post. How's the foliage in Vienna VA right now? Beautiful time of year, you should get out and enjoy it. That might give your thinking a nice, refreshing break.

The Ottoman Empire organized Armenians under the name of a "nation" and left their rule to their own religious leaders. (Zimma)

While enjoying all rights granted to the Muslims, the Armenians also had some privileges. For example, they were not subject to military conscription. Some taxes were borne by both Muslims and non-Muslims, but Armedians were exempted from some taxes imposed on Muslims, such as devotion and tithe taxes. An on and on.

As for Turkey as an ally, it is a poor country and yes receives military aid from the US--as do many, many countries. But Turks and Americans have stood side by side for half a century as bulwarks against the Soviet Union. No one can fault Turkey as an ally. Presidents of both parties, and other national leaders, have long ackknowleded this.

You don't know that Turks are hardworking, friendly, etc--I"ll bet that you don't know one Turk. When I read posts like yours and others, I just don't get where all the hatred comes from. So much hatred passed down the generations. What I love about being an American is that we don't have all those old ethnic issues--that means, assuming you are an American, you need to leave your narrow self-centered concerns behind and think as an American, putting your nation's interest first. That does not happen with the House Resolution, which puts the intesests of a small slice of America before the national intersets of this country. Thank you, God bless, and good night.

Tom Miller

Remember that thinggy about those who do not learn from history?

Dear Tolga,

I believe that your comments are based on a misreading of the article. With all due respect, I have to agree to some of your points but would like to point out some errors:

I believe the quote you meant to address from the article read:
"As for Turkey’s allies, including the United States, they need only consider the simple part of the question: are you on the side of right, whatever the cost - or are you not?"

This differs greatly from Mr. Bush's famous ultimatum:
"You are either with us on the War on Terror, or against us"

Let us discuss context for a moment.

If we consider that Mr. Konstandaras' quote addressed the issue of the Armenian genocide, which is historical fact; that none will deny, not even the historical revisionists (omitting the word genocide, of course) to suit the status quo needs of the Turkish denial; that even Adolph Hitler made reference to during WW-II, telling his generals "Go! Kill without mercy! Who today remembers the Armenians?"; that even our Turkish friends acknowledge but attempt to justify through competing human violations from the other side; that the international community has on the most part condemned...etc. etc.

And now for the similar quote by Mr. Bush delivered as an emotional plea to the polar and divided Joint Session of Congress to justify funding for the war effort against what he then called the Axis of Evil; without being specific about the intended target of Iraq, though we knew that Afghanistan was to come first.

The meaning in Mr. Konstandaras' jest was to address our moral obligation to act for a determined cause and finite result, while Mr. Bush's intent was to address our emotions to act without moral objectivity, in an undefinable cause with vague objectives.

It is unfortunate that often we interpret one's use of certain symbols on the basis and context that we have encountered them before. I can assure you that I have read the article several times and cannot see a moralist agenda that is removed from the historical point to be made in taking a moral stand on the matter. The point of the undertaking is that if we do not act we run the risk of condoning similar acts of human indignity. (my interpretation)

I must agree with you that while you make a strong point in raising the issue of self righteousness, please also see that the point is not made without need nor is it intended to be self gratifying. It must be understood that while Sudan, Sri Lanka... (the list goes on in past and present tense) have experienced and in some cases continue to experience humanitarian indignities, we cannot stand back objectively and wait for historians to sort through the propaganda, deflection, denial, and reflection of guilt upon the victims and other nations until we are correct in acting: The time to act against human indignity is before it occurs, not a century after. That said, I believe that while we ask Turkey to acknowledge the historical facts of the Armenian genocide, we are in fact asking Turkey to rethink her position on an event that is currently on her agenda that may lead to an equally devastating human tragedy; one orchestrated by none other than the historical revisionists of the first human indignity on topic in the above stated article.

I must admire your comments in that they are bravely voiced and we must be cautious in our moral positions but I hope that you will see the need for some stronger positions to be voiced in the matter at hand.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

It occurred to me what a wonderful world this would be if we all just confronted our future and let the past be. That can't be for Armenia of course because Mr. Konstandaras, guilt-ridden members of the Armenian diaspora who would never relocate to Armenia to seriously help the people and a genocide industry that must be making many rich can't imagine or even let that happen.

I'm sure that Armenians suffered but does anyone really believe that Turks didn't either? Good grief look at the historic period. It was the breakup of an Empire. Millions of people died and were forced to evacuate territories and relocate both during and after World War I. Everyone please, buy a simple primer on World War I and learn the facts. Mr. Konstandaras, a Greek is glib about Turks not accepting their past? Doesn't he know that it was Greece who refused to leave Turkey after World War I and had to be thrown out militarily after many deaths by Ataturk to even establish the Turkish Republic? Mr. Konstandaras, do you recognize your country's heritage in the area? Was it right for Greece to have tried to seize Anatolia?

I would love to visit Armenia some day but never will as long as this 100 year-old hysteria continues. Turkey and Armenia, not the wealthy ex-Armenians who choose to live abroad and biased citizens of Greece of all countries, should settle the dispute with Turkey. Then I bet we all could live in peace.

It has been aptly said that Muslims never lose an opportunity to lose an opportunity. Turks have this golden opportunity to admit that they massacred 1.5 million Armenians for the simple reason that they were not Muslims and that they, the Turks, are sorry.

If the Turks apologize after admitting that they perpetrated a holocaust, then Muslims in general will boost their image.

I do not have any hope that Muslims will show any interest in improving their image.

I have read several commentaries on the 'Armenian Genocide' issue recently, but I was appalled by the moral absolutism displayed here, which is of the kind "you are either on the side of the Right (that is, us), or against it/us". Mr. Konstandaras sees no harm in reducing complex, multifaceted aspects of history to a simple 'good-bad' dichotomy, apparently favoring one interpretation of history over others with ease. I can't help but remember the similar remark by George W. Bush: "You are either with us on the War on Terror, or against us". We all know too well what such self-righteous interpretation of concepts and events is causing in Afghanistan, Iraq and for US reputation all around the world. I would advise against such judgementalism and side-taking (especially by third parties) if the aim is to foster communication and better relations among communities, nations. Of course, each party can have their own priorities, some of which can be hard for an outsider to decipher.

Hello Yabanci,

I have to admit, your insistence on tolerance was inspirational. I was also inspired by Mr. Konstandaras' eloquent and fair handling of the matter. I now have proof as well that my studies in philosophy amounted so something practical. My parents will be pleased.

I hope that our joint commitment to the cause was heard and that some redeemable result will come of it. I have to admit, I am concerned by the visible silence from our Turkish friends and appalled by the latest news that the parliament in Turkey has voted to allow the Iraq incursion. I am not sure what the result will be but there is enough condemnation to the latest Turkish posturing to dissuade them from acting.

To our Turkish friends, I would like to repeat something a martial arts teacher once said to me: "The most efficient and best way to disarm your opponent is to offer him a genuine peace."

If we consider that the Turkish problem with the Kurdish resistance is happening within their borders, not from Iraq, the most workable solution for them would be to correct their human rights record and democratic process by keeping up with the times and decentralizing their power base. It is time for Turkey to show the world how a new democracy can function and thrive without the iron fist one is accustomed to seeing in dictatorships.

I would personally like to see Turkey thrive and the only way this may happen is if the Turkish people show some backbone and moral fortitude like the Germans did after WW-II.

It is never too late.

P.S. Can someone post the link to the page highlights, I am somewhat inept with these things.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

If same situation happen today..we can do again undoubtly and Armenian do same things.Because it will not GENOCIDE if you try to protect your country.

Dear Spiridon,

One of your comments made it onto the newly added page designed to feature the best response entries. This really has been a fascinating and lively set of responses so I can see why they want to feature its high points. (I hope some of mine get picked, I got so caught up in contributing I didn't get much else done yesterday. Somebody put in a good word for me.)

Anyway, congratulations. I thought a lot of what you have to say on the issue was great. As were others, especially when they refrained from making sweeping generalizations about each other's national or cultural affiliations.

-Yabanci

Dedicated to the never-ending chaos world and its unfortunate victims of all sorts of man-made (excluded natural) violence!
Dedicated also to the U.N and the "useful" U.N.S.C

Hello Zoo! (1)

Hello Zoo!
While knowing all of YOU!
Sitting in there! while can only POO!
In an unfortunate place
Infested by all sorts of world “CRUs” (2)
While all wishing to see or make a better ZOO!
But none as a "hopeless" can DOO!
Then finally, can only come back and POO!
(Like “me TOO”!)

Hello ZOO!
A place now has too much POO!
But what? and how? can we (all) “DOO”?
To clean up all these mountainous POO!!!
To lessen the bad smell in the entire ZOO!
Welcomed (as usual) by these mountains of POO!
And makes all (of us) turned into all FOOs! (3)
In the “Monkeys-DOO”!
Human-ZOO!
Full with these mountainous and monkey-like POO!
Ugly but deadly as the viral "bird-flu-POO!...

Notes:
(1) or the World
(2) or cruel
(3) or fools or crazies

P.S: Fool-cries and blames will never end as predicted in this rotten world!
(this created and made "funned" by: conscience-to-the-world to the world and its "irrelevances" and "nonesenses" that all mankind can never be able to be escaped from! due to these are parts of the Physics Laws!: "no physical objects can escape from the physical laws")

Ottoman Empire: Back in the day.
The war was at the doorstep and danger was ever-present. Action was eminent. Prominent leaders, land owners, and respected persons from more than 100 square miles of mountainous regions traveled to and from the frontlines. Families were torn and disbanded in the migrations, evacuations, enslavement, "massacres and deportation". Proudly, valiantly, the men fought to protect their homeland from tyranny, oppression, and conquer. Terrors manipulative pressures were persuasive and tactical, as the enemy used their bribes like armored cavalry and turned fearful appeasement-offerers into allies. Cowards turncoated, Benedict Arnold'ed, or wouldn't stand against the aggressors bayonets, but the bold would sacrifice life for country and never surrender their freedom or liberty to foreign rule.

It is a good article, but I can't say that it chooses either side. To those who posted the comments about Turkey being a victim here are not very intelligent people. Don't you see the reason Turks wanted to get rid of Armenians was because they were not Muslims. Armenians are not saying every single citizen of Turkey is responsible for the genocide, the group of people that executed that plan was a part of their government at the time. If Turkey such a democratic country then they need to accept the past, do honorable thing. About Tom's comments, get your facts straight, the Turkish diplomats that were killed were involved in the killings of Armenians, and they were proud of the act. My great grandfather had to flee to Russia by train, because Turks were killing all women and children in his village. He had to hide in the barn, and witness his parents death. Armenians had no power in Turkey, no military to defend themselves, Hitler killed Jews in Germany because as he said" who remembers the mass killings of Armenians. 1.5 Million people don't relocate to other coutries for no reason.Armenians have been killed and starved to death. Turks recognize the mistake that happened in the past, be a better country, Germany did.

If defending your country at all cost considered to be Genocide so be it. Show me one nation on this face of the earth who would fight a battle to defend their soil against the enemy at front lines then attack from behind internally (armenies) during battles against soviets is genocide, lets turn our attention into history of nations who done similar crimes e.,g Frenchmen drove indians from north to south into Louisiana's swamps in 1777 many indians died during their journey. British genocide against hindus in 1857 in India.last but not least, U.S heinous acts against american indians in South Dakota Dec 1890. where does begin and when does it ends? This article should be(301)carefully examine outcome of this decision would severe the relationship between U.S and Turkey. Turks are very proud people they have so much on their plate with PKK right now instability in the region does not need additional conflict which will bring iran, Syria into major hostility with U.S

All countries have to suppress part of their population. Even in a "democracy" like America, not all Americans want to continue the war in Iraq. But a country can only do one thing at one time. Part of the population will get their wishes. The other part will not.

The problem with the Armenians is that they found another civilization that was more appealing to them and wanted to leave the Ottoman Empire. But they did not want to give up their land. So they fought the Turks. They never won. But they never give up. So they have been asking outsiders to help them.

If the West helps the Armenians, they are essentially fighting the Turks again.

The question is is it in their interest to fight the Turks?

Nihat Sebik,

You are right. The West never wants others to be strong. They want us to be torn into pieces so they can easily eat us up. It is just like human beings having to cut our food up into pieces so that we can eat our food piece by piece.

They want our people to be fighting each other so they can use one to defeat another.

They know it all well: "United they stand. Devided they fall."

It is a game that has been played for the last one hundred of years.

I am not so sure what positive results can be achieved in a discussion populated by anonymous posters.

Mr Konstandaras has addressed a current issue in the most eloquent and restrained manner possible. I have read and reread the article and addendum to be certain that his position is not coloured by his cultural heritage, which to be fair, could have happened: It did not.
I am not writing this because Mr. Konstandaras and I share the same cultural heritage, I am simply pointing out a fact that I am not alone in establishing. The many responders, when they are not heavily bound to their nationalistic and affected views, have said in fewer words what I am saying now. I am hoping that given the anonymous nature of the heated discussion, some restrain will be exercised by those who will 'shoot the messenger' because they do not like the message. There was even a subtle threat issued to Mr. Konstandaras near the top of this discussion that is really alarming.

So far we have patiently entertained a variety of Turkish opinion, some of it implicitly interested in researching the historical 'facts' from other than their current, mainstream and nationalistic position. I think there is hope in asking a question to which the answer may not fit our present thinking. I think that complacency is the first premise of ignorance and if we are to communicate with each other and our divergent views we must be very actively working toward addressing a view that is opposing our own. This is the first premise of progress and growth; progress in our understanding of ourselves and the resulting maturity and growth we experience in the simple exercise.

There is a lot of hurt in this discussion and to be fair, it is not always a bad thing; I am only glad that I am neither Armenian or Turkish at this moment. As Greek, I have also experienced hurt for some of the stories I have heard and read. I have also experienced regret for some of the undeniable faults and historically proven crimes committed by Greeks toward others: There is an endless amount of tales to tell on this point alone but the issue is not about the tales and the historical facts.

None of the contributers to this discussion will admit that the human suffering was one-sided in the event in question here. Nobody doubts that a great many Turkish and Kurdish people lost their lives in the struggle to preserve their homeland; we all have an appreciation for our cultural and our natural attachment to nation and state. The time lapse of 90 or so years will not permit us to condemn individuals, but it does permit us to condemn notions of nationalism that will often result in atrocious crimes of human indignity.

I am sorry to say, (and I mean that I am sorry in a personal way) that while we discuss an event that has happened so long ago, we are missing the opportunity to discuss events in our present time. I am sorry to say that while we make excuses for a horrifying and indignant act, against a nation that was almost extinct on account of the act itself, we are sitting here and being lulled into an intellectual exercise, of mostly patient review of the various versions of the tragedy, while the apologists are actively working on the propaganda and strategic approach toward doing it to another nation.

While the Kurdish people are not guilt free, as we have established neither are the Greeks or the Armenians, I believe that WE, regardless of our cultural and national allegiance, become part of the guilt 100 years from now if we do not intervene.

I invite my Turkish friends in this discussion to offer some insight on the ongoing drama planned in the very near future. Where do you stand personally on the matter? We have heard the views of the Turkish media and government: This is not my question.

I want to know where my Turkish friends stand on the matter of the present struggle as PERSONS.

Spiridon
Montreal, Canada

I found the article by Nikos Konstandaras very well written, factual and well analized , as far as the political situation is concerned. Hwoever, as he points out, by pin-pointing it, for the US this is not a political issue but a moral one and his callenge for the US is "will you stand up for what is right.
Furthermore, I am astounded that members of the U.S. House of Representatives actually believe Turkey's threats. Turkey is handsomely paid for the "services" it provides the US. Had it not been for the yearly billions poured into the country, Turkey, very easily, would have been declared bankrupt a long time ago. The scenario the rTurks are trying to portray, in actual fact, is that of a mouse threatening the elephant. The unbelievable is that some members of the US House of Representatives, who are elected to govern the country, are pertaining to be shaking in their pants at these threats. Wow ! I am running so scared, not of the Turkish threats but what seems to be a lack of moral fiber in these Representatives.

You are 100 percent correct, sir. The Turks have oppressed and murdered those around them for hundreds of years, in Armenia, Greece, Cyprus, Iraq, Kurdistan, and elsewhere. It is about time they take responsibility for their genocidal history.

Mr Konstandaras,

It was the Americans who urged the Armenians to revolt against Turkish rule in the mid 1800's. In World War I the Armenians joined forces with the Russians and the French to revive the ancient Armenian Kingdom in Anatolia. Eastern Anatolia is full of mass graves of innocent Turkish men, women and children killed by Armenians. In 1919, backed by the British and the US governments, the Greeks living in Anatolia too, were driven upon the Turks. Our enemies were not the Armenians and the Greeks. We were fighting the imperial Russia, the USA, the British Empire, the French, and the Italians altogether. We won, and "the west" and their Armenian and Greek allies have lost. This is why they had to leave Anatolia for good.

Today, since there are no significant Greek and Armenian population left in Anatolia, we know that "the west" is urging the Kurds to rise against the Turkish rule. I consider the resolution passed by the US commission to be a territorial claim against Turkey. We have seen that before. The anti - imperialist young republic founded in 1923 was NOT "looking westward" as you put it. It may have become "looking westward" gradually after the death of its founder in 1938, but do not count on it! If the "west" does not withdraw its claims upon Turkey, it looks as if the history will repeat itself.

Yours sincerely,
Nihat Sebik
A Turk

MJC @October 16, 2007 11:55 PM: You addressed me, so I will respond.

Poverty, illiteracy, etc. were the lot of just about everyone. The differences however are that (1) the Muslims paid no taxes; (2) for most of the Ottoman period the Christians were required to 'donate' their first born son to the Sultan, literally; (3) periodic massacres of the Christians was the tool of choice to keep them subservient.

That said, it is true that the industry of the Greeks, Armenians, and Jews allowed them to be wealthy. Afterall, that is how the Greeks financed their war of independence from the loving Ottoman embrace. A factor that contributed was the tendency of the Ottomans to keep the Muslim populations concentrated in cities and towns, with some Christians there as well. Most Christians worked the land, with their co-religionists in the towns held as hostages. They were subject to periodic massacres, typically on Fridays after prayers. A very strange coincidence, I am sure.

Until the fall of the Ottomans, the Christians in cities (such as Constantinople and Smyrna as the Turks called them at that time) where European officials resided enjoyed some protection. There were some pogroms there, but the outcry by the ambassadors and the like restricted them to the countryside.

The Armenians were exterminated from Eastern Asia Minor by 1915. By 1923 (now we are talking about Modern Turkey) the Christians (not just Armenians) were exterminated from Western Asia Minor as well as the Pontic regions on the Black Sea coast. By that time, with the turmoil of the region, the ambassadors and the like were hiding for their own safety (kind of us being stuck in the Green Zone in Baghdad).

The WHOLE story has been told. The only obstacle now is the perpetrators' refusal to admit a past error. This refusal is very revealing, and contributes to the problems that the perpetrators' descendants have today. These include the continued oppression of the Kurds. It also includes the relative (and increasing) differential in the condition of the people of Turkey and especially the former subjects in Europe. The losers in other words, on a long-term basis, are the Turks themselves. For the record, I have little concern for whatthe Turks do to themselves; but an improved condition in Turkey will benefit Turkey's neighbors as well.

As for Turkey as an ally of the US: Yes, Turkey has been an ally, that none the less committed genocide in the past that it refuses to admit to. The US has also had to pay hard cash for the alliance: $11 or so billions through the early 50's; $250 millions a year for 1400 Turkish troops to participate in Afghanistan; and of course we had the demand of $24 billions for Turkey to permit the 4th division to cross Turkey on the way to Iraq in 2003 (this last one was too much even for Bush). One must ALWAYS be wary of cash-and-carry allies; especially one who likes to engage in naked blackmail. That said, Turkey has not been a ally to the detriment of its interests. The alliance has been very much in Turkey's interest. In other words, perhaps the US should be telling the Turks, 'look how much money we have given you; look what good allies we have been; what does a little resolution matter between friends'.

I KNOW that Turks are friendly, hardworking, and funloving people. That does not change what happened. As for any insult to their ancestors: their ancestors insulted themselves by committing the attrocities; today's Turks are insulting themselves and the victims by providing excuses for what happened. And Turks continue to insult our intelligence and sense of what is right by asking us to overlook the attrocities because it was oh such a a long time ago, and besides there are geopolitical reaons to. Despite everything, the genocide was wrong.

to GARAK:

as for your argument:

"John Aidiniantz: What conditions have the Turks attached to this? And how do we know the Ottoman archives are still intact? How do we know incriminating documents haven't been purged? Turkish historian Taner Akcam, in his book "A Shameful Act," shows how the Ottoman archives conclusively demonstrate the Armenian Holocaust"

answer: because the british have copies of the originals from the invasion in 1921..

That goes for the above argument. On the turkish-armenian issue, let me state first that i am a turkish man living in the US. saying that and gone, i must also say that i don't really care whether the genocide had really happened or not.. it wouldn't make a difference to me one way or another.. and very sadly, i must admit i feel that way because i'm not any one of the descendants of victims.

i have sympathy for people who claim to be victims. truth is, the issues being discussed have taken place literally 90-95 years ago or so, a time when even our fathers weren't born. so first, comparing this to germans affirming the jewish holocaust and moving on is not quite the same, since the germans who affirmed it had actually took part in the very holocaust itself when it had happened, so there was nothing to discuss.. however, all we discuss today, if we do any, besides the stories told from generations to generations, are documents of one side against documents of the other side.. all historical documents, claims, stories, and such..

saying all that, i, for myself, think this is a good opportunity for turkey to look back and examine the past, and even better, turks and armenians to work out this issue. i think this issue must be thoroughly worked out between involved parties.. i don't think turkey can live forever avoiding this issue. the facts must be brought out, laid out in the open and discussed. if such things happened, then perhaps some restitution could be paid and moved on. if not, same.. point is, both parties should move on.

obviously something happened 100 years ago. however, none of the armenians and turks that live today and argue over it are not participants of the tragic events being fought over..it's good. it's good because nonparticipants of tragedy have a better shot at working things out than direct participants. unfortunately, a lot of us from both sides approach the issue fanatically, but i think it would be for the benefit for our future generations that both armenians and turks seek constructive resolution to get over with it and move on.

i think turkey really needs to see this as an opportunity rather than a threat. otherwise, it will remain a threat forever, a threat as long as the nation avoids to face it.

as for the nondemocratic environment in turkey: you must remember. democracies aren't born perfect, they grow slowly.. there was no turkey 100 years ago, it was an empire ruled by the sultan and khalifa for about 500 years.. it was changed into a western style republic almost over night, and had to stand on it feet that way by military control for decades until it started figuring out what to do on its own, because of lack of any previous experience in such a system. when i was born in turkey 35 years ago, it was still a semi-police state. and look how far turkey has come now with its democracy. it's easy to criticize a nation like that when you're born in a society with a democratic tradition established for centuries.. give it time.. the democratic traditions in the west weren't as mature as they are today when they were young either.

Don't forget cyprus and EOKA!
I can say only that don't forget EOKA

to a guy named Turkish Journalist.

1)Stop shouting
2)I only use 1 name and there are many turks writing here.
3)Why as a Turk (if u are one) you want Turks a huge kick in the face.
4)It is very easy to learn what Turkish people are thinking if u read newspapers? Do you know what newspaper is?
5)If hate Turks this much choose something else, became American, Russian what ever!

"Dear Mr. Konstandara,
I have read your article and all 284 comments...my head hurts."

AS YOU CAN SEE MR.KONSTANDARA YOU CAN TAKE ALOMOST 20 COMMENTS OUT OF THEM AT THE MOST. THE REST ARE WRITTEN BY THE SAME TURKISH GUY IN DIFFERENT NAMES.

WE DON'T REALLY NOW WHAT PEOPLE REALLY THINK!!!

I WISH YOU AS A GREEK DIDN'T WRITE THIS ARTICLE.

TURKS TODAY DON'T KNOW THEIR OWN HISTORY. THEIR HISTORY WAS WRITTEN IN A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE.

THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO SPEAK ABOUT HISTROY ARE THOSE IDIOT IMMORAL CHEAP JOURNALISTS WHO STUDIED IN THE WEST AND WHO THINK OF THEMSELVES AS SECUALR TURKS. THEY ARE REALLY NOTHING BUT ENEMIES TO THE TURKISH PEOPEL.

I WISH THE CONGRESS APPROVES THIS RESOLUTION.IT WILL BE A HUGE KICK IN THE FACE OF TURKEY. THAT WHAT IT NEEDS THIS TIME!

Before having a sound judgement on an issue one should master the pros and the cons.As a Turkish Citizen I should remind you that Armenia had lived in peace for more than 900 years with Turkish nation until they colloborated with the enemies and began killing Turkish citizens, mainly elderly,kids and women since most of the men were serving in Military fighting with Russian, British and with their allies, before they had been forced to leave the land they share with Turks during World War I.
best regards,
Mustafa Sinan

Dear Mr. Konstandara,
I have read your article and all 284 comments...my head hurts.

Reading Mehmet's comments I couldn't help but notice his sense of entitlement and brutal ignorance:

"They were a kind of tribe when Ottoman took the power." Indeed, the Turks "took" power in historical Armenia; they are very good at taking things belonging to others. For the record, Armenia was a CIVILIZATION long before any nomadic Turk rode his pony in from the steppes.

"They hit turks from back by taking side to Russia." Though the vast majority of Armenians who perished in the Genocide were non-combatants, some did fight. Wouldn't you? If you can't vote, you can't testify at court and you're deprived of basic civil rights, then you've become a second class citizen and are entitled to throw off the yoke of your oppressor. Armenians had a right to self-determination and used it.

"They killed many Turks and Kurds in this region before Turkish government takes action." This "they killed Turks" excuse is so weak. These days the whole region is populated by Turks and Kurds. Where are the Armenians who lived there for over two millenia? Where are they? They all went to California? For the record, yes, I am sure there were attrocities committed by Armenians, and I am very sorry for that. (This Armenian can say "sorry" even though he was not personally responsible. The reason is I have empathy, sympathy, feelings. I'm still waitiing for Turks to understand that a simple word can do much good). Could it be that some of the Armenians who killed Turks or Kurds lost loved ones to Kurds or Turks in the vicious cycle of violence? Of course, that's no excuse, but it help us to understand why such terrible things happened.

"We made them wealthy when we conquer their land." Do you even see the problem with this way of thinking? Apparently you the kind of person who would rape a woman and justify it by saying "she wanted it."

"sultan fatih gave them privilage statue, this made them untouchable." Is that why we Armenians with privileged status were knon as "gyavoor"? Why don't you tell the readers what that means?

"we dont even know what happened between 1915 to 1991." Yes, we do.

I would invite you to read the autobiography written by the first president of Armenia, Mr.Ovanes Kacaznuni(1923),whose personal accounts differ widely with the accounts given today the Armenian Genocide Lobby.The book is currently banned in the US.The whole incident can only be called "A BIG TRADEGY" not a genocide.

I just read this article which is written by greek. there are two states in the region which are Turkey and Armenia. i know a lot of eyevitnesses in Turkey during 1910s and they know excacly what happened there. Think about a nation which was in war(Ottoman Empire) with Russia and allies (british empire, France, Greece, etc) whereas, armaniens were still the citizin of Ottoman Empire. They hit turks from back by taking side to Russia. How you can handle who took which side at that time. not only they took side of Russia ,but also they killed many Turks and Kurds in this region before Turkish government takes action. If they have any archevment let them release these documents. They dont have because we have mutual history. They were a kind of tribe when Ottoman took the power. if ottoman wanted them to die, there was no power against ottoman empire those years. who could protect them from turks, same thing for greeks. We made them wealthy when we conquer their land. sultan fatih gave them privilage statue, this made them untouchable. I can give a lot of examples like these. when you get weak, you cant be right. this rule never changed until now. Armanians are begging us to open a border between turkey and armania. why? because they are weak, they are hungry. why these people dont think about during Soviet era. what happened at that time, russia made them better than we do. they closed all churches, we dont even know what happened between 1915 to 1991. Can anyone explain to me? if they are honest, they shouldnt start their history by 1915. I know they have long history and they lived turkish people side by side with respect, integrity, and peace. These armenians who are outside of armenia, such as French Armanians, American Armanians, or Russian Armanians, wont seek a way to make their puclic wealthy instead of pussing some diaspora letters in to the congress. French, Russia, Armenia, these countries are innocent? what about Algeria, Haiti,Checenya, Afganistan,Polond.

i would like say something about American people, We have been allies for a long time. we accomplished a lot of things together, such as Korean war, Iraq war 1, cold war, etc. if you want to take side which side would you take. Armania is still comminist nation. they are using American freedom to take down turkey. not to be used.Plese wake up before it is too late.

I just read this article which is written by greek. there are two states in the region which are Turkey and Armenia. i know a lot of eyevitnesses in Turkey during 1910s and they know excacly what happened there. Think about a nation which was in war(Ottoman Empire) with Russia and allies (british empire, France, Greece, etc) whereas, armaniens were still the citizin of Ottoman Empire. They hit turks from back by taking side to Russia. How you can handle who took which side at that time. not only they took side of Russia ,but also they killed many Turks and Kurds in this region before Turkish government takes action. If they have any archevment let them release these documents. They dont have because we have mutual history. They were a kind of tribe when Ottoman took the power. if ottoman wanted them to die, there was no power against ottoman empire those years. who could protect them from turks, same thing for greeks. We made them wealthy when we conquer their land. sultan fatih gave them privilage statue, this made them untouchable. I can give a lot of examples like these. when you get weak, you cant be right. this rule never changed until now. Armanians are begging us to open a border between turkey and armania. why? because they are weak, they are hungry. why these people dont think about during Soviet era. what happened at that time, russia made them better than we do. they closed all churches, we dont even know what happened between 1915 to 1991. Can anyone explain to me? if they are honest, they shouldnt start their history by 1915. I know they have long history and they lived turkish people side by side with respect, integrity, and peace. These armenians who are outside of armenia, such as French Armanians, American Armanians, or Russian Armanians, wont seek a way to make their puclic wealthy instead of pussing some diaspora letters in to the congress. French, Russia, Armenia, these countries are innocent? what about Algeria, Haiti,Checenya, Afganistan,Polond.

i would like say something about American people, We have been allies for a long time. we accomplished a lot of things together, such as Korean war, Iraq war 1, cold war, etc. if you want to take side which side would you take. Armania is still comminist nation. they are using American freedom to take down turkey. not to be used.Plese wake up before it is too late.

By now I have read hundreds of articles on this subject, but Nikos Konstandaras' is the most on-point, thoughtful and compelling. In the grandest tradition of the Greeks, there is so much virtue and wisdom here. Too bad that wisdom will be lost on Ankara.

So when does the resolution condemning the U. S. governments genocide against the Native Americans get passed?

I started reading the article because I wanted to read something good about Turks from a Greek author. I wanted to read something other than a classic Greek Vs Turkish Vs Armenian etc issue trying to inflame old wounds.
You make it sound like Turks killed out of boredem & No Turks were killed by Armenians or by any western country in an unethical way... History should be respected and to be determined by objective Historians. History in the hands of politics may be a disaster...
I think some people unfortunately are suffering from overt or covert Turkophobia which may be their way to reflect serious conflicts.
I remember reading and article in a Turkish newspaper which is quite nationalistic. The author wrote: "The best nation in the world is the one with the highest rate of individuals who are aware that there is no such thing as a best nation or race.." The world needs positive inspiration and a lot of people admire the Turquoise color, cherish the Tulip and think yoghourt is healthy.

you are and many people didnt red and dont want to learn regal history .. if you dont know and want to learn real episode about armenias look this link and more much search abut history...

yours respectfully ....

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/turkce/album/index.html

our history is clear till 2000 bc (türks)

why dont you write the true history about this subject.you should ashame of yourself.lies lies lies.

To Amviennava: read some history. The Armenians, Jews and Greeks were the wealthy and privileged of the Ottoman Empire, the poor Turks were the lower class, illiterate, etc (the average Turk, not the Osmans I mean of course.)

Haven't you wondered why the Armenian populations of Istanbul, Izmir (Smyrna) and other western areas were vitually untouched? If a group of people is massacred in one part of a country but untouched in the other parts, does that constitute "genocide"?-guess those Turks were not very systematic. CAn the answer perhaps be that the eastern Armenians were colluding with the Russians?

This event is a terrible chapter in history and I am genuinely sorry for the horrible deaths that occurred. I just believe that the WHOLE story is not being told, I never trust these black and white/bad guy (Turks)/good guy (Armenians) stories. History is much more nuanced than that.

I am not a Turk but I have been to Turkey (and a lot of other places, like Greece, Korea, Japan, England, Germany, the Nethelands, etc) and I happen to LIKE the Turks. They are friendly, hardworking, funloving people who have looked to the West for inspiration and have worked hard to have a democracy. They have been a very, very faithful ally long before Iraq came along, during the Korean War and the Cold War, and I don't think what the House is doing to them is right. It is a monumental insult to them and their ancestors, and no country is going to stand for that.

Dear Sir,

I believe that you are not a historician or an authority on this matter such as other people claims the genocide. I believe that this issue must be discussed by historicians and when they come to conclusion then we can say something. Please live this matter to historicians, dont make it a political game.

Regards

To all:

As usual, we all know this world is full with nations that these commonly have bad reputations in all sorts as from "very" to "serious" and "less serious" crimes of all sorts!
Genocides therefore, can be found in the entire human history for so many and we can take days to read them all!
Numerous nations have committed themselves into all sorts of criminal activities, such as from domestically (such as: Khmer Rouges in Cambodia trained and supported by red China, Mao Tsse Tung of China murdered more than 35 millions chinese, etc.,) to internationally (such as: communist Russia murdered millions of citizens in several East European nations, etc.,) or on both (such as: red China murdered its own millions of chinese and Tibetans in Tibet nation, India, Korea, Vietnam, etc.,) as all known!
In other words, Genocides therefore, are also included in the "world human-genocides recipes", even that look odorous and filthy and too much to bear but human-beings are quite been familiarized with!

No matter how world people have to cry fooled and condemn it but the world genocides have been invented by human-beings with the assisting of human sins and hatred, and therefore they have always well found places in the world history to stay!

The good thing now is as how the world populace can find ways to stop the genocides to show up again? ssuch as a last global genocide as the third world war! and that is more important and more urgent than to sit and put the blames on others! and can only do very little!
In other words, the world should spend more time to embrace human-conscience into each individual of the entire mankind as that can be said as the job-one to all! beside the money-counting task of all human-being wwho are so dedicated to it than anything else!

Thanks,

conscience-to-the-world

Just a few questions:
Didn't the Turks and Armenians live for hundreds of years next to each other? What happened to the two millions Armenians in Turkey? Did they all decide to pack their bags and leave thier homes at the same time?

Turkey's population in 1927 was about 14 million. Today it is about 74 million. 500% growth in 80 years. What happened the two milllion Armenians in 1915? Should not there be at leat 8-l0 million in Turkey today.

There are less than 100,000 Armenians left in Turkey today.
If it was not an ethnic cleansing 1915 style, then what was it?

Spiridon,

Again your approach to this issue is refreshing and helpful.

"I sincerely hope that...some of our Turkish friends in this discussion will walk away with questions rather than shame or outrage."

Bravo. It has been my experience that many Turks are curious and eager to better understand international views on this issue when given the chance to discuss what the issue means to them. There are so many ways for the international community to approach this issue without getting bogged down in historical debates. It takes patient listening and intervention.

"The problem with Agent Orange is that it remains on Vietnam soil all these years. People who get affected do not die. They live to suffer. And their problems are passed on to their children. It is the worst that can be done to a people."

So are you trying to say that people who were mugged, raped and burned alive or starved to death are better off because now they're dead, thus nullifying any point to the issue? It certainly sounds that way.

But the point is that you cannot go and tell me you're going to compare what happened in Ottoman anatolia is comprable to Vietnam. If the Ottomans had been the great protectors of their minorities, why would there have been any doubt as to who they would side against the Russians? (Mind you, Armeians were an incredible minority in those militaries)

Don't you think it's possible that the masscres of almost 400,000 in the preceding decades may have had something to do with that? Or possibly the fact that the Ottoman military commanders disarmed all Armenian regiments in the mid teens?

My second point was that the United states has never actively denied the use of Agent Orange in Vietnam, or dropping the A-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or tried to cover up the trail of tears, or lied about the horrors of the slave trade.

As for me looking out for my own interests, I have no interests invested in this, which brings me back to my point before about attacking the person rather than the argument.

Oh, and it's spelled wholly, or holy. I'm not entire sure which you were going for there.

Dear Sue,

The story of your Great grandparents is a testament to the perseverance of the human spirit. Please know that the matter of the genocide against your ancestors is not being debated but rather reaffirmed. There are those that want us to forget and others that would prefer the whole thing dropped since we are all, as cultural entities, guilty of something.

Mr. Konstandaras has made a very eloquent and fair case. This discussion has served to bring the opposing forces to the table to state their peace. I sincerely hope that some of us who have persisted in this discussion were able to convey our message of sympathetic concern for our Turkish neighbours.

I sincerely hope that we have expressed ourselves clearly in that this is not a problem by one cultural group against another but rather a human phenomenon that just happens to have a cultural identity. I sincerely hope that in having said that, some of our Turkish friends in this discussion will walk away with questions rather than shame or outrage and I sincerely hope that these questions will extend to the historical 'facts' they are so ready to have us believe.

I sincerely hope that in keeping this issue visible and current in discussions such as this we are able to infer solutions beyond the scope of this particular tragic event. I sincerely hope that what the apologists of this genocide walk away with is the questions necessary to prevent from doing to the Kurdish people what they did to the Armenians. I sincerely hope that this discussion will pose questions beyond the region and into Sudan, Sri Lanka, Iraq, Bangladesh and other terrible hot-spots of indignant human suffering imposed by apologists there.

I sincerely hope that there is time to hope, since hope has no time limit, but the Turkish state as we know it is rapidly declining by the attitudes and laws it expounds. How can we hope if hope requires action as well? So far the Turkish government has done nothing to acknowledge but has done everything in it's power to subvert even the process of reason and open communication on the subject. How can we hope when fear is the predominant trait among those who are set to commit more heinous crimes to protect their version of the 'facts'?

I just hope that the Turkish people are not laughing, as one contributer has mentioned, since I think we all agree, this is no laughing matter.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

The turks are tough people.The past history of ww1 and ww2 is well documentated.I think we need to work towards a better dialogue with Turkey.I think Turkey needs to face it own dirty history.With much wisdom comes much sorrow.

I think Turkey past crimes are well noted in the history books.We all say NEVER Again and then it happens again an again.I think the trouble lies within the darkness of each person soul.Turkey is a needed ally and we should try to help them face their own evil past.USA dropped two atomic bombs to end the WW2.With much wisdom there is much sorrow in the human heart.

Not sure who all the rebellious Armenians were during the Genocide. My great-grandmother and grandfather weren't rebelling nor were some of their children when they were slaughtered. My great-grandfather on my grandma's side went to work and never came home. My grandfather escaped through Egypt, spoke Turkish and never did anything to a Turk. All I know is you don't see anymore Armenians in Eastern Turkey. Ever wonder why??? All that land was once ours and now is burial ground. Please, let's get real here. I wonder why there is even a debate on this.

To: “The endless troubled World”:
As always seen, the world we are living in which is full with all sorts of nations that these have all tried best to arm themselves in order to destroy others! More than enough weapons have been relentlessly made than the entire world population needed! or can "digest" with!
All sorts of wars, such as: big wars, small wars, local wars, global wars, political-based wars, influence-based wars, religious-based wars, terrorist-based wars, economics-based wars, technology-based wars, environments-based wars, lands-swapping-based wars, diseases-based wars, space-based wars, conventional wars, non-conventional wars, total-destructive wars, lie-based wars, conscience-based wars, "money-first"-based wars, "animals-first"-based wars, "human-first"-based wars, "homosexual"-based wars, "patriot-based" wars, "drugs-and-money-first"-based war, "anti-drug"-based wars, "immigrants-infested"-based wars, "anti-immigrants-flooding"-based wars, "domestic-fighting"-based wars, "president-seat-fighting"-based wars, "votes-gaining-for-earning"-based wars, etc, from all corners of the world have sprung up more and more like mushrooms after the rain!
At the same time, in the UN and UNSC bad guys and good guys have played all sorts of conceivable, good-bad-and-ugly, civilized, uncivilized to dirtiest/filthiest, and/or most-barbaric games to confront each others, to exploit all valuable sorts of weaknesses of these organizations and systems to gain all sorts of benefits and controls of some parts of the world or even the entire the world as always intended!
The deceiving tactics/strategies and tricks suddenly fool up and foul up the entire world souls! and with that results these let no man/men on earth who can now feel self-confidently as how to believe on himself or themselves to truly and confidently that who is/are the good guy(s)? and who else is/are bad guy(s)?. Due to all of good-guys and bad-guys are all wise enough to all behave as all "good guys"! and no one can afford to make himself or themselves to look like a bad-guy (s)!, and sometimes, suddenly all of these good-guys and bad-guys they also seem to look alike” and to “behave alike” as all bad-guys as well! in the world community where all bad-guys and good-guys are all show up side-by-side as usually!, and therefore this syndrome is confusing the world populace that normally naively and easily trust all good-guys and including bad-guys are all "good-guys", or "good friends" or "best friends" for own-gaining, and "trouble-free-based earning" benefits during global close contacts, occasions, while sweet talks are well cheered and well mixed into all good-deeds and bad-deeds to happen!
Unfortunately, this world is definitely a very risky world for all peace-lovers, democracy-believers! and liberty-dreamers and civilized nations to live in! due to countless nations have tried destroys other nations with all conceivable reasons and all sorts of man-made conflicts- driven deeds that have led to more kinds of conflicts to show up!, to mushroom up! than to be able can be gradually solved or being absorbed! Therefore, for that reasons, this world is to seem definitely to be no more than a "conscience-less" world! as usual!
A world of "big-fishes-eat-smaller-fishes"!, a world of "big-fishes-threatens-smaller-fishes", a world of "all-devils-and-angels-all-look-alike", etc., a world "human-conscience-has-no-place-to-stay", and in fact, and in many times, the so-called "human-beings" never failed to treat each other far-worst than any most dangerous animals treating themselves!
For example: The world where "human-beings" are living in where have seen in our naked eyes, these folks or self-calling themselves as "human-beings" can kill other human-beings as their own folks for making "good money" but "very bloody" from the mass-executed deaths' body-parts!, while comparing with other animals! all animals in this world seem never kill their own friends for self-gaining! unless they are too hungry!
In essence, I only wish that all human-beings in this planet earth should or have to knee on all earth's animals to learn from them as the more civilized creatures, more self-respectful creatures or well-trusted "conscience-based" teachers on their know-how and how again to behave and be able again to be nice to each others with the using of these animals friends' truth and sincere and compassion and care!
Sad! sad world! an unfortunate place! full with man-made garbage of all sorts, odorous man-made dirty tricks and treacheries of all sorts! that where it exists all sorts of “human-like” devils and man-made devils, vampires than innocents and angels and all the alike!, and obviously there are more killers and thieves and pirates of all sorts than good and civilized men!
Unfortunately, and sadly to say, the so-called: "Education" that will never turn this world into a better and more civilized world! Why?? due to most killers, murderers, thieves, pirates, world-trouble-makers of all sorts in this world generally are well educated folks! and having solid knowledge in all conceivable aspects! including knowing and realizing the value of "right-and-wrong", "lawful-and-lawless", "do-and-do-not", but they commonly have no interest in recognizing the "conscience" and the "code-of-ethics"!, or the "code-of-conducts"!.... why? because these folks do not wish to lose their valuable time as dedicated to be used in counting-money or gathering-benefits of all sorts for themselves!
Bad guys with their massively destructive weapons in hands are as an example that these folks are always ready to bring this world to a lasting end! or "doom" without think-twice ! as it could happen at anytime in the future if a mad-man decided to create or initiate a world great havoc! and unfortunately, no one can predict for the worst moment to happen as when? or why? that will lead to end or terminate all good and bad ones in this world all together in a couple hours or so!
Pls. take few minutes to think about the world "human behaviour" today! and all might soon will sadly realize that this world will never have a good chance to have a good time at all in the coming future!
For example:
Bad-guys like red China and Russia that these folks have always arrogantly instinctively threaten the rest of the world nations, no matter big or small with nuclear weapons and all sorts of MDWs for a world massive destruction moment! while these bad folks definitely knowing-by-heart realize that they will also disappear as quickly as well in no more than a couple of hours or so and obviously all turning into vapour-and-ash as predicted! and obviously, all 1.3 billions Chinese and all Russians will altogether disappear at the same time and no more than few hours if an one-time-only great war will take place! And unfortunately, all the rest of the world will also follow the same path of destiny!. And obviously, this world will again begin a new chapter of recreate new lives and will require a long time to be able to reappear new forms of lives in the heavily radioactive-contaminated planet!
Obviously, at the last moment of this world! no Allah can magically to save you the world Muslims who always spend more times to pray than do anything else! no Jesus Christ can use his power to protect you the Christians who always carry the bible with them everyday! no Buddha can bring heavenly peaceful calmness to assist you the world Buddhists at all!. And at that time, the only someone who will be lucky enough to wander around and enjoy himself in the red planet Mars or on the moon that he might have a better chance to survive than all the rest of human being on this planet earth combined!
So who has guts as "wisdom" to use the everyday-available massive destruction power in this world to gain controls of all others? or simply all become all losers?
It seems to be that this world won't have any or deserve any blessing from the heaven at all! Why? due to this world have been generated relentlessly with too many devils of all sorts who are too dangerous all others! and including the planet earth! and these world devils are always eager to destroy all others with all means and can only listen to their own killing-instinct. In other words, these devils are too dangerous than anything else as can be only compared with heaven asteroids versus planet earth!. Due to these bad-guys commonly believe in the philosophy of attacking and destroying all others to keep them unique and for self-benefitting only as always been shown in this planet for so long!
Finally, this world human-being seem to need conscience and good deeds first! that are more urgent than wealth, food, shelter, religion, physical demands, etc.

Thanks to all! and also wishing that less "world-fists-fights will occur".

Conscience-to-the-world

"...So please don't try to compare Vietnameses as with Armenians..it's irrelavent"

Now I see why the Armenians can not stand the Turks.

Whenever I talk to a Chinese, he/she is talking to me this way.

Anyway, do you think that the Turks mistreated the Armenians like the Americans mistreated native Americans? How could the Ottoman Empire have lasted for six hundred years?

Spidon: When Turkey's EU application began to move, I was hopeful, as I am sure everyone of Turkey's neighbors was. The requirements that the EU places on applicants are designed, among other things, to lessen the influence of the military on the civilian authorities.

By now I am no longer hopeful. I believe that too many Turks want their military to dictate to the civilian authorities. Ir is unfortunate, mostly for the Turks themselves.

Consider, after WW2 Greece was literally in ruins (having won the first voctories for the allies; been occupied; and fought a civil war afterwards). But by the mid-70's had reached the economic stage where Turkey is today; and by now it is a full member of the EU. As is Cyprus (that includes the Muslims in the occupied part who hold a Cypriot passport - many do and can even run for office). Even Bulgaria is a full member of the EU. The laggard is Turkey, as a result of which it is the condition of the Turks themselves that worsens in comparison to Turkey's neighbors.

Soon, Turkey will compare favorably only against Iraq, Syria, and pehaps Iran.

The choice is for the Turks to make; all anyone else can do is point out the possibilities. One of these, by the way, is for the Kurds to break-off, as have the other groups that Turkey oppressed, that is always a possibility, no matter how 'illegal' it may be in the eyes of Turks.

I might agree with most of the things you say in your article. Even though I have not made a serious research about the subject matter, if I was forced to make a bet based on the superficial examination and analysis in my reach, I would bet that the Turks murdered hundreds of thousands of Armenians. And would also be willing to join the condemnation of such action by the Turkish government and military in power at the time. That said, I venture the opinion that for Congress to adopt the proposed resolution at this moment is highly non-intelligent, to put it mildly. I oppose the attack, invasion and occupation of Irak. I oppose the present administration and will cast my vote against anything Republican. I despise their agendas and their hypocrisy. But. . . I just love the American people, our people, from all walks of life and political parties. And the American soldiers over there are our sons and daughters, or fathers/mothers of young children, or of not so young children. So, we need Turkey on our side NOW. Why are we going to presume that they will act rationally? When it is a matter of dignity, rational thinking is mostly absent. And for Turkey, rightly or wrongly, it is a matter of dignity. So, this is not the right moment for our Congress --if it is by any means "ours"-- to adopt such a resolution. The lives of our soldiers, even though they have been sent over there to fight the wrong war for the meanest reasons, deserve th utmost cooperation and protection. We just NEED Turkey's hand to limit the harm inflicted by the present administration to our country and to the whole world.

Actually Vietnam to China is more like Armenia to the Ottoman Empire. Vietnam was conquered by China for a long period of time. It stopped being a part of China after the French invaded it. After that, Vietnam wanted to be totally independent. So when it was threatened by China, it expelled the Chinese in Vietnam. That was how my family ended up in the sea.

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what are u try to bush**t at, I advise you to learn hystory right about China & vietnam, yes China did invaded vietnam few centuries ago, dont tell me that Vietnam never have ambtion about Laos & Combodia...how many wars had fought between Vietnam & these two countries?

But China had never been mistreated Vietnam beside asking some tribute as we did to Korea or Tibet, Mongolia, we consider Vietnamese as brothers as other people such Manchurians. We had never discriminate or treated Vietnamese as sub-class as what western countries to the defeated countries (enslave black & or wipe out native indians, Aztec, Inca....you name its)..that why China empire last for millenium before outdated by western weapons technology...

In communist time, China helped Vietcons to overcome U.S bombarment: China provide foods & materials and even after cultural revolution, and offer China as North Vietnamese army santuary.

So please don't try to compare Vietnameses as with Armenians..it's irrelavent

Get a life, parasite!!!

So Be It, You are right. The West has been criticizing China and Vietnam for decades. They wanted China to listen to them or starve to death. A lot of Chinese did starve to death. But China has survived and is now thriving.

Who cares what the West says. Since they have invaded so many countries and committed so many atrocities, they have long lost their moral authority. The best weapons in the world is all that they still have. It is a shame that this world is still ruled by force. But the power of arm forces are limited now.

The Vietnamese who fled to the US, some of my relatives among them, had also tried for decades to lobby US Congress not to do business with the current Vietnamese government. Vietnam did experience a lot of difficult because of that. But it is now moving on. The US has to do business with it again.

thank you for writing this excellent article. Me and my family fully agree with the points you raised. I am confident that the world will eventually recognize the truth of the Armenia Genocide and prevent similar occurances in the future.

look pleasse help the pkk okkonomik begassu ifnt they vill sal more drugg to europpe and much morre young people vill die

Paul Rinderle: what a professional presentation of recent history !

what right do you as a greek have on commenting on turkish affairs?

it's about time for Turkey to join SCO pack, Russia & china is waiting you on the other side of camp.Americans are betrayers, they dont have sense of frienship for an allie only their interest count. how many countries and friends that U.S gorvment had dropped for it own interest? Saddam is a good example: he was once U.S best ally to counter Iran, now everyone saw his fate under U.S world dictactorship.

Should a message clear to Americains that Turkey has option, U.S don't own this world, U.S don't own the truth, U.S is not GOD to pass judgement on others & U.S have no credibilty or moral right to criticize other while murdered it own native people hundred year ago.

Actually Vietnam to China is more like Armenia to the Ottoman Empire. Vietnam was conquered by China for a long period of time. It stopped being a part of China after the French invaded it. After that, Vietnam wanted to be totally independent. So when it was threatened by China, it expelled the Chinese in Vietnam. That was how my family ended up in the sea.

Vietnam was also supported by the Russians and had border skirmishes with China for a long time. I can not believe there is so much similarity between Vietnam and Armenia, and between China and Turkey.

I consider myself a Vietnamese because my father's family is 100% Vietnamese. And unlike Jews, our ethnicity is the same as our fathers'.

Since China had offered us shelter, we have nothing against the Chinese government.

From my family's experience, I conclude that bigger country has bigger heart. Therefore, I guess the Ottoman Empire would not have mistreated the Armenians. This is a conclusion that I just made.

Please note that Nikos has posted a response to your comments as an addendum to his post. You'll find it above, following the original text.

me and my family would like to vouch for the crimes that the turks have committed against the Armenians. unfortunately the other side is too immature to face the truth of their monstrous crimes against the christians and yet they are clamoring to join the European Union whose central tenet is respect for human rights without even acknowledging the past.

Dear Yabanci,

You are a great voice of reason. I am pleased that you are contributing since I a hard point is always best seen from multiple positions.

To my Turkish friends:

I am not sure you understand the significance of all of this but I am not laughing and I know that no other contributer here is laughing either. I am sorry that I have used some bitting humour to illustrate my points but I just want to impress upon you the seriousness of the matter.

Here are some issues to consider:

No other neighbouring nation wants to weaken Turkey as a nation since a weak Turkey would leave a power vacuum in the region.

Historically power vacuums have been filled by rogue elements with extreme agendas. The last thing anyone want is another Islamo-Fascist Republic in the region.

The position of most Greeks that I know is that if Turkey was to correct it's position on human rights and show some responsibility toward international relations, we may be able to resolve the deplorable Cypriot matter and the petty skirmishes along our islands. It would also be nice to know that what democracy means for us it means for our neighbour. For far too long we have had to deal with the Turkish position being dictated by it's military and delivered by way of the country's political representatives, which changes from day to day as does the issues and agenda.

Everyone wants to see Turkey succeed in it's secular form since a successful democratic, secular Turkey is a buffer from the rising religious bigotry wanting to vent westward.

In case the implication is not strong enough, Greece is actually happy with the small part of the dry, rocky place it occupies. It does not have expansionist ambitions and would not be seeking excuses to invade a bordering oil producing nation as Turkey is poised to do.

Greece has come to terms with it's history and is not harbouring neither shame nor anger for the demise of it's Byzantine past. I for one believe it was time for Greeks to call themselves Greek again rather than Romans. You may not be aware, but you did Greece a favour in your occupation since you humbled a people that were made arrogant.

What we are all hoping for is for a Turkey to stop making accusations and excuses that she is hated by everyone and to start talking about the solutions required to resolve the issues of the present and future. Nobody wants to deal with a person or a nation that will not communicate, siting outrage on every matter to be addressed.

Lastly I personally believe that it is much better having a neighbour that one can call friend rather than a neighbour that will behave as a foe.

The question: Is Turkey ready to come to terms with her past and be a good neighbour, not only to Greece but to the entire region?

The answer is uncertain based on the commentary in this discussion and I dare say that hope is a luxury one cannot afford. The time is now for the answer since the survivability of Turkey is in the balance.

Just some facts to consider.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Yabanci, I know not all Americans are the same. But if the Turks have to take the blame for the Ottoman Empire, why not the Americans for the United States of America?

If you are not accusing the Turks, who are you accusing? Who is going to have to take responsibility for the crime that you are trying to portrait? What are you trying to pass such a resolution for?

THANK YOU MR. Konstandaras, your article has touched me, and has great significant importance to many readers, and many who as knowledgable as they seem about this very sensitive and ill historical fact, are either ignorant about the truth or facts, oblivion, or are only intersted in terms of "politics", what is significant or better yet beneficial to them or theirs if you will. It is extremely sad to see a great country as U.S. literally kneeling down to slaughtering Turky, of course certain individuals have made great strides toward this issue, but how pathetic and sad is that. I, do understand Turkeys significants during this conflicting times, with Iraq, and its georgraphical importance to U.S., but the truth is Turkey is only digging a deeper hole for his ill self, and has created a passage to descend, and we may not see it in our life time, even thow I hope we do, but one can not escape from its destiny, its past and what one has sowed.

Thank you for speaking the truth. Crimes against humanity such as the Armenian, the Assyrian, Greek mass murders and genocides should never be forgotten or white-washed. Me and family fully agree with the contents of this article. keep up your good work.

212S.com:

This is the point:

You are using the 2nd person pronoun "you" as if it properly equals all Americans or Westerners.

You are reducing a complicated history of the use of agent orange into an American crime as if it was something all Americans did or condoned and therefore all Americans have no right to enter debates about Turkish-Armenian historical conflicts.

Your treatment of these issues is very categorical! You cannot put all American political actors into one rhetorically impotent bunch because some shameful Americans make problematic foreign policy decisions.

Well stated!

Yabanci,

I wrote it so many times, I don't want to write it any more. You just pretend not to see it. Is it so hard to look for my posts here? Am I supposed to post the same message over and over again so you can see it? I remember I wrote about Agent Orange victims at least once, may be twice. And it is not much earlier than the post that you are questioning.

I forgot to tell you that same thing happened to us when a war broke out between China and Vietnam on the northern border of Vietnam. We were asked to either move to the south of Vietnam or leave Vietnam by boat. We left Vietnam by boat. It was a dangerous journey. Our boat broke down in the middle of the sea and we lost our compass. We were lucky to be saved by Chinese fishermen. Some Vietnamese boat people died in the South China sea for all kinds of reasons including piracy.

Imagine that having lost both parents to the war to defend Vietnam from the French, my mother and her sister had to dig up their parents' grave to try to take them with us out of Vietnam. What kind of treatment was that?

However, I am reluctant to blame Vietnam for it. China was angry at Vietnam for fighting against their ally in Cambodia. So they threatened to invade Vietnam. There was a real chance that Chinese army could march all the way to Hanoi where we were living. Because my mother's father was Chinese, and even though he died for Vietnam when my mother was still little, my mother always considered herself a Chinese and always criticized the Vietnamese government. The Vietnamese were worried that the Chinese in the north will collaborate with the Chinese army if they invaded Vietnam. After all, Vietnam was conquered by the Chinese repeatedly for the last one thousand years.

My family's experience may explain why I am able to understand the decision by the Ottoman Empire to relocate or expel the Armenians and what happened to them on their journey.

Nikos Konstandaras is right to recognize that a benevolent founding of the Turkish Republic is an important part of many Turkish identities.

When we expect Turks to confront their past, we are asking them to question the integrity of their founding fathers and, in turn, the very legitimacy of that proud democracy. Acknowledgement is no simple task. It is an international project that requires patience, leadership, and compassion for ALL involved.

We should remember that living Turks are NOT the perpetrators, but are -at worst- the sons and daughters and grandchildren of perpetrators. Modern psychology recognizes that the offspring of perpetrators often suffer from shame and trauma produced by the violent activity of their predecessors. Anyone who doubts this should read the volumes of literature on Intergenerational Transmission of Trauma. That being well understood, shouldn't we extend intelligent understanding to our Turkish allies and friends? Isn't truth and reconciliation the goal? Further shaming a nation on this issue will provide NO resolution -for ANY of its victims.

It is understandable that many of the responders to this article (from all sides of the debates) are plagued with anger and frustration. However it is unfortunate that so many are willing to unabashedly promote and embrace such silly stereotypes: Armenians as greedy, Turks as ignorant, Greeks as insolent, Americans as hypocrits, etc etc etc. Shame. None of these generalizations accurately describe or explain the problems at hand. Can't we do better? Where are the posters who are prepared to show or embrace real leadership on this important issue?

I would love to see the quality of the responses improve so we can all have a little hope.

Dear Blesser,

Let me make this clear: NO ONE IS LAUGHING AT YOU OR YOUR PEOPLE!

Go back and look at the entries I've made. I've been arguing all along that these allegations against Turkey's fore fathers are very serious and therefore the international community should be very careful in how they choose to proceed on this issue. WHERE IN MY STATEMENTS DO YOU SEE ME SAYING ANYTHING DISPERAGING ABOUT TURKEY??

I will repost my first entry so you can confirm this.

Dear 212S.com:

It's not clear what you're refering to. There's a lot of vague talk about "you" and "crime".

Again, it seems you're still insistant on using the hypocrisy argument. Plus you seem to have this idea that there is a unified "you" that can be talked about like he/she/it is a unified entity.

Your view of the world seems to include simple understandings of: us vs them, facts vs conspiracies, good vs evil, Turks vs others.

We can have a much more productive and nuanced dialogue if you try to refrain from such categorical thinking.

Yabanci,

Anybody wants can laugh all he/she wants although I don't see anything to laugh at if someone has one track mind, I guess you cannot change that.

What is important though is who will have the last laugh and that we will see.

So they can go on and laugh.

If you really repent for your past mistakes, you would not be making the same mistakes again. If you are really sorry for the wrongs you did to others, you would take actions that you can afford to take to correct it. You ignore the plea for help from the victims you have created and continue to create more victims. If you can just stop the crimes that you are committing, you will do the world a great service.

You are like a judge receiving bribe to convict someone else of bribery.

Maybe there is less openness in Turkish culture. But they care about humanity and honor as much as you do, if not more.

LEVIS,

Since when racists of Austria-Hungary and Germany has been the allies of Turkey.

If you referring to war time alliance of 1900s that was for selling guns to Turkey. I hope you are not comparing war time relations with relations of modern times since a lot of water has flown under the bridge.

So, you asked "WHY" they do not admit their wrong doing or support turkey on this, it is simple, because they profit from genocide talk and they have sizable Turkish populations in Austria an Germany(3.5 million)living there so they are skin heads and they are trying to accept legislation to make it harder for Turks to emigrate and that is how they are supporting their public policy and public hatred. So it is to their benefit to label someone in their ignorant public's eyes as genocidal maniacs. There is a need for that I guess in their society.

Turks are not running anywhere, we are sitting and waiting that ignorants like yourself will lighten up and see the truth with your own eyes. But I am loosing hope.

"To the endless troubled World":

As you're always seen, the world we are living in which is full with all sorts of nations that these have all tried best to arm themselves in order to destroy others! More than enough weapons have been relentlessly made than the entire world population needed! or can "digest" with!
All sorts of wars, such as: big wars, small wars, local wars, global wars, political-based wars, influence-based wars, religious-based wars, terrorist-based wars, economics-based wars, technology-based wars, environments-based wars, lands-swapping-based wars, diseases-based wars, space-based wars, conventional wars, non-conventional wars, total-destructive wars, lie-based wars, conscience-based wars, "money-first"-based wars, "animals-first"-based wars, "human-first"-based wars, "homosexual"-based wars, "patriot-based" wars, "drugs-and-money-first"-based war, "anti-drug"-based wars, "immigrants-infested"-based wars, "anti-immigrants-flooding"-based wars, "domestic-fighting"-based wars, "president-seat-fighting"-based wars, "votes-gaining-for-earning"-based wars, etc, from all corners of the world have sprung up more and more like mushrooms after the rain!
At the same time, in the UN and UNSC bad guys and good guys have played all sorts of conceivable, good-bad-and-ugly, civilized, uncivilized to dirtiest/filthiest, and/or most-barbaric games to confront each others, to exploit all valuable sorts of weaknesses of these organizations and systems to gain all sorts of benefits and controls of some parts of the world or even the entire the world as always intended!
The deceiving tactics/strategies and tricks suddenly fool up and foul up the entire world souls! and with that results these let no man/men on earth who can now feel self-confidently as how to believe on himself or themselves to truly and confidently that who is/are the good guy(s)? and who else is/are bad guy(s)?. Due to all of good-guys and bad-guys are all wise enough to all behave as all "good guys"! and no one can afford to make himself or themselves to look like a bad-guy (s)! and sometimes, suddenly all of these good-guys and bad-guys they also seem to look like and to behave as all bad-guys as well! in the world community where all bad-guys and good-guys are all show up side-by-side as usually!, and therefore this syndrome is confusing the world populace that normally naively and easily trust all good-guys and including bad-guys are all "good-guys", or "good friends" or "best friends" for own-gaining, and "trouble-free-based earning" benefits during global close contacts, occasions, while sweet talks are well cheered and well mixed into all good-deeds and bad-deeds to happen!
Unfortunately, this world is definitely a very risky world for all peace-lovers, democracy-believers! and liberty-dreamers and civilized nations to live in! due to countless nations have tried destroys other nations with all conceivable reasons and all sorts of man-made conflicts- driven deeds that have led to more kinds of conflicts to show up!, to mushroom up! than to be able can be gradually solved or being absorbed! Therefore, for that reasons, this world is to seem definitely to be no more than a "conscience-less" world! as usual!
A world of "big-fishes-eat-smaller-fishes"!, a world of "big-fishes-threatens-smaller-fishes", a world of "all-devils-and-angels-all-look-alike", etc., a world "human-conscience-has-no-place-to-stay", and in fact, and in many times, the so-called "human-beings" never failed to treat each other far-worst than any most dangerous animals treating themselves!
For example: The world where "human-beings" are living in where have seen in our naked eyes, these folks or self-calling themselves as "human-beings" can kill other human-beings as their own folks for making "good money" but "very bloody" from the mass-executed deaths' body-parts!, while comparing with other animals! all animals in this world seem never kill their own friends for self-gaining! unless they are too hungry!
In essence, I only wish that all human-beings in this planet earth should or have to knee on all earth's animals to learn from them as the more civilized creatures, more self-respectful creatures or well-trusted "conscience-based" teachers on their know-hows and how again to behave and be able again to be nice to each others with the using of these animals friends' truth and sincere and compassion and care!
Sad! sad world! an unfortunate place full with man-made garbage of all sorts, odorous man-made dirty tricks of all sorts! that exist all sorts of human-like devils and man-made devils, vampires than innocents and angels!, and obviously there are more killers and thieves and pirates of all sorts than good and civilized men!
Unfortunately, and sadly to say, the so-called: "Education" that will never turn this world into a better and more civilized world! Why?? due to most killers, murderers, thieves, pirates, world-trouble-makers of all sorts in this world generally are well educated folks! and having solid knowledge in all conceivable aspects! including knowing and realizing the value of "right-and-wrong", "lawful-and-lawless", "do-and-do-not", but they commonly have no interest in recognizing the "conscience" and the "code-of-ethics"!, or the "code-of-conducts"!.... why? because these folks do not wish to lose their valuable time as dedicated to be used in counting-money or gathering-benefits of all sorts for themselves!
Bad guys with mass destructive weapons in hands are as an example that these folks are always ready to bring this world to a lasting end! or "doom" without think-twice ! as it could happen at anytime in the future if a mad-man decided to create or initiate a world great havoc! and unfortunately, no one can predict for the worst moment to happen as when? or why? that will lead to end or terminate all good and bad ones in this world all together in a couple hours or so!
Pls. take few minutes to think about the world "human behaviour" today! and all might soon will sadly realize that this world will never have a good chance to have a good time at all in the coming future!
For example:
Bad-guys like red China and Russia that these folks have always arrogantly instinctively threaten the rest of the world nations, no matter big or small with nuclear weapons and all sorts of MDWs for a world massive destruction moment! while these bad folks definitely knowing-by-heart realize that they will also disappear as quickly as well in no more than a couple of hours or so and obviously all turning into vapour-and-ash as predicted! and obviously, all 1.3 billions Chinese and all Russians will altogether disappear at the same time and no more than few hours if an one-time-only great war will take place! And unfortunately, all the rest of the world will also follow the same path of destiny!. And obviously, this world will again begin a new chapter of recreate new lives and will require a long time to be able to reappear new forms of lives in the heavily radioactive-contaminated planet!
Obviously, at the last moment of this world! no Allah can magically to save you the world Muslims who always spend more times to pray than do anything else! no Jesus Christ can use his power to protect you the Christians who always carry the bible with them everyday! no Buddha can bring heavenly peaceful calmness to assist you the world Buddhists at all!. And at that time, the only someone who will be lucky enough to wander around and enjoy himself in the red planet Mars or on the moon that he might have a better chance to survive than all the rest of human being on this planet earth combined!
So who has guts as "wisdom" to use the everyday-available massive destruction power in this world to gain controls of all others? or simply all become all losers?
It seems to be that this world won't have any or deserve any blessing from the heaven at all! Why? due to this world have been generated relentlessly with too many devils of all sorts who are too dangerous all others! and including the planet earth! and these world devils are always eager to destroy all others with all means and can only listen to their own killing-instinct. In other words, these devils are too dangerous than anything else as can be only compared with heaven asteroids versus planet earth!. Due to these bad-guys commonly believe in the philosophy of attacking and destroying all others to keep them unique and for self-benefitting only as always been shown in this planet for so long!
Finally, this world human-being seem to need conscience and good deeds first! that are more urgent than wealth, food, shelter, religion, physical demands, etc.
Thanks to all.
(revised)
(Ref: Some thoughts on the World Realities)

Dear Dror Levi:

Please can you make an argument about how your approach to dealing with this issue is helpful. There's some confusion about the usefulness of certain parts of your statement.

You know what, I have the feeling that the resolution is not going to pass the full House. Why? Because the congressmen and congresswomen in the House want to continue to get campaign contributions from the Armenians. If it is passed, they will not get the money from them any more. They are just making some posturing to show to the Armenians that they are doing something. This is because if they don't, the Armenians will not support their candidacy any more.

This is why the resolution keeps coming up but never pass.

Even Bush does not bother to block a vote. I guess he knows that it is not going to pass.

Let's just wait and see.

Dear The Blesser and 212s.com:

"Look at how ugly they themselves are before laughing at others."

I can't see how you would surmise that you are being laughed at. I can't see how you would conclude that certain "western powers" don't take the mirror and look in it and see what is ugly and what needs to be fixed about themselves. If anything, reform and progress have been key motives for the development of democratic institutions in both Europe and the US. That's the whole point.
Your hypocrisy argument about the US has been made clear (again and again and again). But there are limits to its usefulness. Isn't it short sighted to think that the hypocrisy argument ends the discussion? No one is arguing that the US or Greece etc is without faults. But their faults don't really settle the challenges that Armenians are making to contested Ottoman history, do they?

Turkish Nationalists here and their apologists talk about "bias" . First NO ONE is more biased than you.Secondly, why would TURKEY'S OWN ALLIES make up those stories of the Genocide i.e. Austria-Hungary and Germany ??

The more you Turks run away the more the World will chase you down and force you to admit to your crimes.

Spidon, siridon whatever,

It is easy to sit in Canada and US and judge the rest of the world. You need to put your hand under the stone like people over there doing, and have an idea after that.

Human dignity, human rights etc. are all noble concepts.

I don't know if you have been following the news but I think either you don't or you are only listening state sponsored media.

Kurds, not the Turks has been threatening the other side. Find and read about Barzani's comments and then take a look how Kurds are treating the Turkomans in Kerkuk and everybody as watching just like everybody was watching and still watches what armenians done to Azeris in Ngorno-Karabakh enclave.

So in order to reconcile something first you have to be knowledgeable on an issue, get the facts strait and than have an opinion. Turks have said many times that they have no grudge about Kurds, or armenians, there are 70000 illegal armenian workers right now in turkey and many kurds have top level positions in turkey's state houses, they own large corporations and they are filthy rich.

So the image you are trying to portray as to why turks doing this to kurds or turks needs to accept a crime that they did not commit in order to silence the crowds is ridiculous.

As I said in my previous posts, again I think an apology might take place but it has to be both sided. So Armenians and greeks should apologize what they have done to turks and I am sure than turks will simultaneously apologize too and this is the real reconciliation. Not that you are forcing one side to admit the guilt but you are not admitting it yourself your sins. Of course, when I say you I don't mean 'YOU' personally but the multiple sides(and there are more than two sides to this matter) who invaded the turkey and caused all this to happen this includes Russia too. Everybody should be apologetic to each other. Otherwise we cannot solve this issue.

@ The Blesser (I will not comment on the name!)

Your representation of De Facto is expected but smells of rot.

While you are busy caring for the Ghost of Turkey you may have missed some important points that lend to your facts being flawed.

I am not advocating the position of the Kurds as a nation but rather as people: Fellow human beings. I am also not advocating the position of the Kurds because I feel that they had nothing to do with the massacre at Smyrna on the Anatolian coast in 1922, as ordered by their Ottoman handlers so as to prove themselves worthy of inclusion in the great nation of Turkey; the fact is that 150,000 Greeks were murdered by Kurdish militias as ordered to do so by those glorious leaders you are so ready to honour. I am not starting a discussion by listing my excuses for my position, nor am I engaged in this present matter as a Greek. I am hoping that my cultural background will not be an issue when I discuss the matter of genocide since the heinous violence that is implied in the act transcends cultural and historic affiliations; I do not wish it on the cultural group that did it to my cultural group. I am hoping that we can understand each other as people rather than cultural entities.

I am not standing up and saying that the Kurds have it coming to them for what they did to the Greeks in 1922, I am saying that if this is your position; to carry out retribution and avenge whatever for whatever by whomever against whomever, you need to check your human credentials so we can sit and talk like men.

So far, all we are hearing from the Turkish position is that they are determined to act out against the Kurds but to sit and discuss the past, they cannot without telling us that we are to blame.

Let bygones be bygones my friend; write to your government and tell them that you are man enough to stand up for human dignity; tell your friends to do the same and I promise you that before you know it, not only Kurds and Armenians and Greeks and Serbs and Romanians and Bulgarians... (the list is ongoing) will flock to your cause and help you in your nation building.

If you want to do a good act, turn the mirror the right way and tell your people to do the same.

Enough said since my hope for making a difference is diminished.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Dear Spidon,

Thank you for your well-reasoned response. This kind of treatment of the complex issues is exactly what I'm hopeful about.

Let us be reminded that Turkey, like the EU and the US, are experiments in democracy. They are works in progress. Because their leaders are democratically elected, they are under pressure to both provide leadership to their people AND provide platforms that reflect the will of the people. In a representative government, for change to happen there must be motions to change on the grass roots level and from the top down. That's why it is important that the international community compassionately extends its patient encouragement to both Armenians and Turks (as well as Kurds). This is an international project because all stand to benefit when nations encourage each other to resolve their injustices. The U.S. learned a great deal from European criticism of U.S. policy, and vise versa. Isn't there plenty of empirical evidence that internationalism has greatly benefitted the US and Europe? Neither the EU or the U.S. are innocent actors but that doesn't mean that they should not contribute to each others peace and human rights goals.

I wish the responders to Mr. Konstandaras' article would stop constructing their arguments and counter-arguments based on oversimplified characterizations of their opponents presumed cultural or national identities. The cultural or national identity of a person making an argument on this issue (or any other, really) does not preclude the validity of the argument. Hypocrisy is not wonderful, but far worse is a lack of dialogue due to fear of being considered a hypocrite.

2125 you keep hitting the nail on the head. But I doubt that armenians will go for it because they will loose their cover and all the money they have spent to create this illusion.

Honestly, I would love to see the Armenians file a law suit against the Turks. That way, I can learn how to file law suits against the French, the Japanese, and the Americans.

And the matter between the Armenians and the Turks will settle once and for all, not to get into the way of any country's relation with Turkey.

The Armenians can also save their campaign contribution money for other cause.

Spidon,Spiridon whatever,

Greece is also has not suffered deaths of her soldiers and citizens from a terrorist organization namely PKK based on that oil rich neighbors' soil and protected by the the illegal authority on the north and central government is so incapable they don't know their elbows from their... let alone fight with a terorist organization which is organized in Europe, including in Greece where they had have training camps etc.etc. it goes on and on.

I guess you are a bit off the point and confusing the facts.

Greece is lucky that they were accepted to European Union and in the expense of Turkey when Turkey liberated the Northern Cyprus accepted to NATO and received billions of aid from EU. So please compare apples to apples and try not to solve others' problems before you solve your own.

Spiridon, Yes. "Turn the mirror on themselves". That is exactly what I have wanted to say. I just did not know how to say it. The West should turn the mirror on themselves. Look at how ugly they themselves are before laughing at others.

Armenians and Turks can argue all they want. But the more the Armenians are asking the West to help them in this fight, the less credibility they have. For one, the West is not a moral standard. Other than themselves, nobody trust them. For two, you don't need to ask others to give you credibility if you yourselves are rightful.

Dear Yabanci,

Your points are well made and if addressed appropriately may result in greater cooperation and good will in Europe, the Baltics, Asia-Minor and the Middle-East alike. I for one would like to be hopeful that with an elevated consciousness the Turkish state and people will be empowered and transcend their present state of denial.

I was hopeful at the onset of this discussion that without the excess blame and finger pointing, on topics over and above the obvious one on topic here, we can learn to heal together as people as opposed to Turks and Greeks and Armenians and Europeans, etc...

I am not sure that the sample taken in this discussion of Turkish defencive maneuvering is evidence of the Turkish position as a whole, but it looks like there is a lot of historical and psychological manipulation in Turkey to dissuade discussion on the topic as it happened; in deed, this premise is reflected in their laws. I am not sure that a country that will jail you for speaking out against despicable acts of genocide is mature enough to enter a discussion on human rights and good governance. What we are reading here by the defenders of romanticized violence to justify the crimes is analogous to acceptance of the horrific acts themselves. How do a people who defend the need to commit such heinous crimes feel about the Kurdish problems posed in their country today?

We are not discussing an event that has happened 90 years ago, we are discussing the position of a nation that is ready to do a repeat performance, despite a global effort to ease them into the hard facts of nation building on premises such as Justice, Tolerance, Fairness, Cooperation, Leadership, Responsibility and Accountability.

What do we tell our Kurdish neighbours when we see what our Turkish allies are readily preparing for them? How long do we need to sit back and play nice with a people who misjudge the gesture of passive acceptance as weakness? Why do we need to be dissuaded by their threats of retaliation if we do not stop pressing the issue? How much longer should we wait for the Turkish state to come into maturity and show us that they are worthy of being our equals, not only in Europe but on the Human scale of conscientious collaborators toward the betterment of humanity?

Please do not misunderstand me: I am certainly not advocating an ethnic or cultural position. As Greek I am more than capable of seeing and understanding that Greece is not guilt free historically but let us be clear on the matter: Greece is not ready to invade an oil producing country and eradicate a population on the grounds that it does not conform to it's present position of nationhood.

We have read a great deal of excuses and aggressive posturing by the Turkish contributers here but it is time for these great minds who are so ready to teach us about history to turn the mirror on themselves. Excuses, denial and conspiracy theories are no longer acceptable since the topic is no longer philosophical or psychological. It is real and it is happening now.

Please tell me that I am wrong because I am the first one to admit that I would be relieved.

Just some things to consider when while we continue politely entertaining the Turkish position.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Yabansi,

The fact of the matter is if you can get away with a crime, you do it and continue to do it.

How could you say that you are trying to correct past mistakes when you never accept any responsibility for Agent Orange victims?

How could you say that you try not to repeat mistake when you are using weapons that are causing similar problems as Agent Orange in Iraq?

You refuse to admit that you caused great harm to a nation and a people through illegal use of weapons and continue to do it, as long as you can get away with it.

Yabanci,

To discuss what?

Western powers' institutions promoting the dialog after the atrocities etc. etc.
Isn't this a bit after the fact?
If you kill someone and try to reconcile with his children are you really reconciling with them or is this another smack on their face? How can you give back what you have taken away?

The dialogs the way you are suggesting will not solve anything. Dialog should be there before these things happen so it does not happen. Not after 2-3 million gets killed.

I am not Turkish. I don't have anything to do with Turkey. In fact, I did not know anything about Turkey until I met some people from Turkey here in New York.

I am feeling very strongly in this issue because I just think that it is unfair for people who are more guilty of the crime to accuse others.

How do you feel you have the moral authority to judge others on this when you are still refusing to admit the crimes that you have committed and are still committing?

Why nobody explains to me why the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not genocide?

Yabanci,

I am not talking about survivors. I will look at how many are still in Eastern Europe to judge if this was a genocide or not. I will bet that number is close to 0.00 in relevance to this argument. If there are 5-10 homes left this does not count.

I am referring to the fact that there is still a sizeable armenian population in modern day Turkey with their churches and etc. they can go to Church on sunday and they are wealthy and they do whatever they want. This even does not include the ones I am referring as my friends which are from lebanon and there are more in syria.

On your efforts to hit a reconciliatory tone between armenians and turks and forget the past etc. look at what armenians trian to do, they are never coming to table to sit with turks, they have preconditions like 'if turkey recognizes the genocide etc.etc' so you better check your facts that it is not turks that are not sitting down to talk, it is armenians and as soon as they start to see the facts they leave the table.

Look at what Oskanyan(armenina minister of foreign affairs) was trying to do in Council of Europe and what answer he got from the Council's secretary.

Yeah lets talk about fact my friends. Simple facts. You trying to prove something but trying soo hard that it is obvious.

Allow me an observation: When your argument is 'how about THAT over there', and you do not address the issue at hand, you are implicitly acknowledging that you are wrong. You merely try to muddy the waters via a cheap illusionist's trick (watch my left but not right hand).

I firmly believe that Turks will benefit greatly if they have a free and open discussion about the end of the Ottoman era, as well as the beginning of the current era.

The Blesser:

I have Jewish friends whose families escaped Eastern Europe when Hitler invaded, does that mean the Holocaust didn't happen?

Also, no one is defending Western powers for the injustices of their wars. The people of Western powers have gone to great lengths to establish institutions and promote dialogue that prevent future violence. Yes, they don't always succeed, but the effort is ongoing.

Of course it's political, that's what democratic governments do: provide a platform for discussion of issues that are important to its people.

2125.COM you are right on the money.

If western powers kill millions in the name of dividing countries, getting to the riches of that country, and sucking the blood out of the people, for hundreds of years that is not a genocide, but when Turks relocate some Armenians to another part of the country which is modern day lebanon and syria away from where they are cooperating with outside powers and organizing rebellions which is modern day Transcaucasia, and on the way some Kurds attacks and kills some of them and some die due to hardships of travel, although according to archives all the precautions were taken for a safe passage, that is called genocide. Give me a break. I have many lebanese friends that are direct descendants of the people who were relocated during that time.

If this was a genocide like Hitler performed none of them will be alive today and having children/grandchildren/grandgrandchildren.

Give me a break. This a political game not based on the facts.

Kenan Ozdamar:

This debate is not about the Native American issue, nor is American acknowledgment of its tragic past a good analogy to the Turkish-Armenian debates. True the U.S. Senate has never declared the treatment of American Indians as genocide, but justice and retribution for the slaughter of Native Americans is not only a vibrant and well funded project in American government, but taking responsibility for U.S.-perpetrated injustices is a key feature of America. You're misunderstanding America if you think that there isn't constant dialogue and action in America to improve its human rights record and fix its wrongs.

More importantly, avoiding hypocrisy is not the central goal of a democratic government. There will always be inconsistencies. The Armenian issue was debated in the Senate committee because it was brought there by highly motivated Armenian Americans who want Senate attention to their cause. The Senate committee has an obligation to hear Armenian American demands. It would not be a well functioning democracy if the Senate committee refused to hear the Armenian plight because they were afraid that some would call America hypocritical.

The Blesser,

There is no need for a conspiracy for people of the same background to agree with each other. They simply trust each other more than the people who they feel are different from them. If your brothers tell you that they got hit by your neighbors, do you believe it? Most of the time you will believe it. That is how two nations can go to war with each other. They all believe that their countrymen are telling the truth.

I think the debate on whether the word “genocide” applies arises from the fact that historical perspective was taken out when people look at an event from present time, without knowledge of the circumstances in which the event occurred.

If you take the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki out of historical context, you can say that was a genocide too. But will the Americans admit that they committed a genocide there?

2 millions Vietnamese died in a famine caused by the Japanese and French occupation of Vietnam during WWII. But no one ever suggests that it was a genocide.