"he changed the alphabet to roman- rendering genrations of turks unable to read their own history-"

man, people never understood what was written before roman alphabet. With arab alphabet It took 10 years to learn how to write and read. You sound like people were sleeping with books before roman alphabet and lost all their ability after roman alphabet. We are muslim, but it does not mean that we do whatever Arabs do. Respect and living your life are different things. We are not Arabs, nor our language is Arabic.

mrs nicos... i think you are bad commentator... if you plan to be good journalist you have to learn much more inform;)
i have like that idea becouse of you havent do correct analysis about ATATÜRK and AKP power also what is beetween relation each other...

mrs nicos... i think you are bad commentator... if you plan to be good journalist you have to learn much more inform;)
i have like that idea becouse of you havent do correct analysis about ATATÜRK and AKP power also what is beetween relation each other...

You are not a writer..you are a greek thats all.

it is interesting that people automatically accept without question kemal because the label "secularism' is attached to it.

even under the guise of secualrism, which seems to imply freedom to most- kemal fell far short of being a proponent of freedom.

his vision could arguably be the eradication of islam from the turkish landscape.

his poorly planned and racist enterprise of moving whole populations back to their 'original' homes was a disaster.
he moved entire towns of turkish speaking greeks back to their "home".
disrupting homes in the process.
he imported greek speaking "turks" back to turkey, again with the same disruptive outcome.

he changed the alphabet to roman- rendering genrations of turks unable to read their own history-

he imposed oppressive and coercive decrees against religious freedom on the turkish people

an extreme reaction is an extreme reaction, and the secularits have held their power under the not so merciful generals weilding arms to keep this "secularism" intact.

its really anti-islam- and should be called what it is
we have freedom of religion in america, something we vaue.
the turks have voted that they would also like this option.

one thing i'd like to point out that just occurred to me-

while these reforms were taking place in turkey- women in america were fighting for their rights to vote, and own land.

actually - it was AUGUST 26,1920 that the 19th amendment to the U.S. constitution was ratified giving women the right to vote.

just putting things in perspective

how religious is Karamanlis, Prime Minister of Greece, is how religious is Erdogan, Prime Minister of Turkey. Erdogan is not more religious than KAramanlis. or better say, how religious are orthodox is how religious are Turks in Anatolia.

Karaman is in the center of west anatolia and immigrants in Greece are from Karaman, as well as i know ancestry of Karamanlis is in relation with Karamans in Greece. His postgraduate is about peace and Anatolia, am i wrong? so it is not a matter of religion but inheritance and relations. Ataturk with President of Greece had decided to have a federation between Turkey and Greece.

and this is Bursa, Nicaea, the city of the village of Holy Mass and St Nicholas. blessings.

HALOZCEL:

I agree.
Exactly. What you have said.
And I may add:
History never stops for one nation.
There is no "end of history" as proclaimed by the Prof. from Johns Hopkins.

But we can at the end of the day sit down and argue over "WHO IS THE ALL TIME GREAT".

To me it is still Mohammad.
1500 years.

I can think of no one who can be remotely compared with him. It is not just by his success and his influence. It is also to me measured by the task before him. The task before Mohammad was hopeless indeed.
As a leader of men he was indeed profoundly successful. And the hold he has over his followers even today is a phenomena in its own right.

For the sake of brevity let me site only two examples:
When he led his rag tag 313,followers into the Battle at Badr outside Medina to face the 1000 strong cavalry of the Quresh which had marched from Mecca,it was not a blind and desperate gamble.
He ordered his men to take position over the only desert spring well at the foot of the mountain. He could have sued for peace or asked for help from the people of the host city of Medina who had given him political refuge.
Or he could have left the city and retreated further into the desert and wait out the Meccans.
But his ambition was made of sterner stuff.
He decide to go out and meet the enemy in full view of the Medinites who watched the Meccans fight it out.
Imagine in the burning heat of the desert he forced his enemies to attack him while he was on a higher ground and in control of the source of water. He forced the Meccans to retreat and go back 200 miles from where they came leaving 70 dead behind.

When he finally conquered Mecca after 10years of exile. As the conquering army entered Mecca.
There was fear and panic.
He declared that any one who goes to the house of his chief rival would be given amnesty.
He won over his chief rival just by showing him some respect.

Patna is the ancient city of Patliputra on the banks of the Indus river. It was the greatest city in the world for over 260 years. Compared to it London held that position for less than 100 years.

Barry Bond or Hank Aaron. May be Rodrigues will break Barry Bond's record.

So we will continue to argue "WHO IS THE ALL TIME GREAT". The greatest man ever born, the most successful and the most influential to me is none other than Mohammad.

Tarık,

All total GDP(Gross Domestic Product) of all islamic countries(57 states with 1.2 billion population) is less then market value of one American bank,Citibank.
So,stop the writing 'empty tales' and try to understand this situation.
Try to understand why present epyptian is backward then the egyptian who had lived 5000 years ago.
What happened 'Persian Civilization'?
Where are the Civilizations of Mesopotamia and Syria ??
Where is the 'Babylonian Gardens'?,all desert now.
USA went to the Moon within 200 years.Iran,5000 years old nation,women couldnt go to the stadium.

I can give many many others examples.
Islam is Backwardness.
Islam is wrong.
Islam is Brainwashing.
Islam is the Desert Cult,nothing else.

Halozcel:

As far as I know there are only 2 men in the entire history of Mankind who were born outside the known centers of power and achieved unprecedented success and influence: they are Mohammad and Ghengiz Khan.
For example: Bill Gates : it is difficult to imagine what would he have achieved if he was born in Tora Bora.

Mohammad is the most influential and successful man in the entire history of Mankind.
Imagine he is ranked No.1: of the billions and billions born so far.
What he achieved is unprecedented.

His name means the praised one and indeed he is :
the Times of London reported (heard on NPR)that Mohammad is 2nd commonest name in England after John for new born babies.
Islam continues to be the world's fastest growing religion.

To 1.5 Billion Muslims belonging to hundreds of nationalities and linguistic groups he is the most revered name.

You have to read : remember "Iqra" is the first world of the Koranic revelation which means to Read (or recite).

Don't forget that "little learning is a dangerous thing..drink deep or taste not the Pierian spring"

Halozcel:

As far as I know there are only 2 men in the entire history of Mankind who were born outside the known centers of power and achieved unprecedented success and influence: they are Mohammad and Ghengiz Khan.
For example: Bill Gates : it is difficult to imagine what would he have achieved if he was born in Tora Bora.

Mohammad is the most influential and successful man in the entire history of Mankind.
Imagine he is ranked No.1: of the billions and billions born so far.
What he achieved is unprecedented.

His name means the praised one and indeed he is :
the Times of London reported (heard on NPR)that Mohammad is 2nd commonest name in England after John for new born babies.
Islam continues to be the world's fastest growing religion.

To 1.5 Billion Muslims belonging to hundreds of nationalities and linguistic groups he is the most revered name.

You have to read : remember "Iqra" is the first world of the Koranic revelation which means to Read (or recite).

Don't forget that "little learning is a dangerous thing..drink deep or taste not the Pierian spring"

i appreciate this article. thank you for the objective perspective about what is happening in Turkey.

CALIFORNAI CONDOR,

You write " The raw material is there. All that remains is for the coming fanatic religious leader or mullah to arise and summon the Turks to greatness, purity, sanctity and glory under the banner of Islam".

Are you praying to your evangelical gods for that to happen so that your Islamophobic hatred can be vindicated?

A psychiatrist would tell you that your choice of name is telling -- it reminds me how "Operation Condor" in Latin America brought the 'American/Californian Enlightenment' to that continent which once had Simon Bolivar as its hero and is now lending an interested ear to one Hugo Chavez who has just launched an important multi-billion dollar joint-venture investment project with that other 'member of the axis of evil' Ahmadi-Nejad.

Keep praying!

Usama Bin Laden,

Ataturk didnt rape 6 years old child girl.
Ataturk was not an 'impostor'.
Ataturk was not 'unlettered gamel driver' who took 'read' revelation.
Ataturk didnt murder 900 people of Qurayza tribe in one night.

Mr. Konstandaras,

you say
"At the same time, the government has managed to undo the damage of the economic collapse that the secular government of the late Bulent Ecevit and his presidential protégé Ahmet Necdet Sezer caused in early 2001..."

I agree with some of the commentators in that you need some more research about the near future of Turkey about which you write.

Not only the "economic collapse" was NOT a result "of the late Bulent Ecevit and his presidential protégé Ahmet Necdet Sezer," but most importantly the AKP (or "government" as you put it)just kept doing what IMF and World Bank cowboys directed them to do so. And IMF was in charge just before AKP was in power already(check newspapers).

And instead of undoing any damage that Turkish economy had, they (AKP, IMF, World Bank) created the most devastating economy Turkey has had in its history with a huge budget hole and the poor going poorer and the rich getting richer.

And Ataturk would not like this, being a humanist revolutionary that went against the colonialism of his own time.

OD: I would like a couple of clarifications, if you will.

1. You posted 'He liked modernity for its own sake, but it was also a means to an end - his ultimate goal was a Turkey strong enough that people would stop picking on it. Since that goal has obviously been achieved, ...' If the goal has been achieved, why do Turks behave in such an aggressive manner. It usually springs from insecurity.

2. You also posted 'Talking of Greeks, by the way, the writer of this piece has balls writing about Ataturk.' What does that mean?

Burak M: You posted 'Greeks, Armenians, so called non-Turkish " real muslims" who are trying to teach Islam to us. Get your hands off of my country and keep your dirty minds to yourself'.

What are you talking about?

The current of fundamentalism that has spread across the islamic world is in part a reaction to the west. It could also be seen as something to replace nationalism since nationalism did not prove that successful and since then an islamic revival has begun.

This movement, if we focus on fundamentalism (the talibans and al-qaida) it is very anti-western and born out of a fear that western culture will dilute the values of muslims.

One could say that the islamic revolution in Iran occurred partly because the country modernised too fast and devout muslims feared that they would become too western.

So the revolution occurred and the islamists took power. And since then they have tried to purge Iran of every possible western influence.

This is reactionary and backward.

But AKP seem, at this point, to be something else. A benevolent branch of the Islamic revival. They combine the old muslim values with modernity, if they focus on modernisation and their economy while using Islam as a strength their future is very bright. Islam is Turkey's destiny, but not as the fundamentalists intended.

I don't want an Islamic world that look back at past greatness and want to bring those things back. I want a muslim world that looks at the path ahead of them. We live in a globalised world, change or be changed.

But many muslims seem afraid of what lies ahead. They seem to be more comfortable with looking back and wanting those days back. If this mentality persists or grows stronger it will only lead to a catastrophe.

The great thing about AKP is that they appear to not be backward. They are strengthened by their Islamic values while they are looking towards the future instead of the backward fundamentalists who seem more focused on dreading the future and trying to isolate themselves from what is happening around them.

Great analysis. I totally agree with Mr Konstandaras. Thanks

The modern European idea is secular, born of the nlightenment.
Europe's current success is based on secular values. How long before the "moderate Islamists" become the "radical Islamists"? The moderates contain the seeds of extremism and will be supplanted with a new crop of disaster-makers.

Ataturk tried to reform Turkey in a secular but nationalist direction. The new reformers head Turkey in a non-European, potentially fanatical direction. Islam and secularism cannot coexist so close to the fountains of fanaticism to the south of Turkey. If Ataturk were alive, he would deplore the situation but might not have the means to change it.

We saw with Nazi Germany how a modern, secular state, advanced in most ways, could be taken over by a gifted fanatic who knew how to exploit archaic passions. We see this budding fanaticism in remarks above: "Get your hands off my country and keep your dirty minds to yourself'. Ataturk would be appalled.

The raw material is there. All that remains is for the coming fanatic religious leader or mullah to arise and summon the Turks to greatness, purity, sanctity and glory under the banner of Islam. After all, it happened before not long ago in Iran.

Mr. Konstandaras is right on with his analysis. He understands, completely, the dynamic of the Turkish political forces. The Turkish military will back down because, like rest of the secular parties, they realize that Turkey has changed and AKP has become the mainstream party. It is not enough to be secular, Turks want bread and butter.

It is interesting to see an article about Turkey written by a Greek although I have to be honest that it was less biased than what I would think.

And more interesting thing is that someone named "Usama" making another comment on it. Before you can even mention about Ataturk, you better make sure that you have half the balls he had fighting against occupiers with scarced resources. You are not Turkish nor you know our history and you are basically brainwashed human being who things that you can ever understand whatever you read. I am afraid you could even understood your holly book.

Greeks, Armenians, so called non-Turkish " real muslims" who are trying to teach Islam to us. Get your hands off of my country and keep your dirty minds to yourself

It is interesting to see an article about Turkey written by a Greek although I have to be honest that it was less biased than what I would think.

And more interesting thing is that someone named "Usama" making another comment on it. Before you can even mention about Ataturk, you better make sure that you have half the balls he had fighting against occupiers with scarced resources. You are not Turkish nor you know our history and you are basically brainwashed human being who things that you can ever understand whatever you read. I am afraid you could even understood your holly book.

Greeks, Armenians, so called non-Turkish " real muslims" who are trying to teach Islam to us. Get your hands off of my country and keep your durty minds to yourself

You write " It is an ironic twist of history that the ideological descendants of the Young Turks are now the reactionary establishment, or the “deep state,” against which the “reformist Islamists” are rebelling. It is as if actors of a set piece exchange their costumes and repeat the play with the necessary variations."

The ironic twist is that the islamophobic mob refuses to understand that an Islamic Reformation has been going on for very long decades now, inspired not only by Hassan Al Banna, Abul Ala Maudoodi, the Opinion Leaders of Qantara.de and so forth, but Counter-Reformation/obscurantist forces have been instrumentalised by the West. Such was the case with the CIA supplying defective, outdated weaponry to the naive-but-well-intentioned 'mujahideens' who were sent to fight 'godless communists' in Afghnistan after the Soviets in vaded that blighted country. They went to fight sometimes with the complicity of their governments but more often with the tacit approval of these governments who were too imcompetent to see through the CIA monstrosity.

Yes, Nikos Kostandaras is right that Erdogan now is vanquishing the mosnter after having caught it from the right end. May he meet with ever-more spectacular success, and may his example be emulated everywhere in the Muslim world without satanic interference from counter-reformers, whether home-grown or, more lethally, external.

Kemal was a soldier who lived at a time when Turkey was frequently victimised by stronger powers: Russians, Britons, French.

He liked modernity for its own sake, but it was also a means to an end - his ultimate goal was a Turkey strong enough that people would stop picking on it.

Since that goal has obviously been achieved, Ataturk might be less concerned one way or the other about headscarfs etc today than some people think. And if not, Turkey is too big a country to let its personality be determined by one dead guy, no matter how revered.

Usama, had there been no Ataturk, you never would have gotten your revived Caliphate, which was politically a dead letter anyway. You would have got a Turkey carved up between British, French, Italians, Armenians, Greeks, and maybe Russians.

Talking of Greeks, by the way, the writer of this piece has balls writing about Ataturk. But he carries it off rather well.

Dear USAMA;

I am not even sure if your entry should be dignified with a respones, but suffice to say: You should really try learning history before teaching it. I think you pretty much got every single statement wrong. For example, Ataturk was the name given to Mustafa Kemal by the first freely elected Assembly years after he established the Republic; it was not a name he gave himself. He "betrayed" the Ottoman State that capitulated to all and every demands of the invading Allies just to preserve the opulent palace life of the Sultan and Caliph -- the very definition of treason. He "forced the secular constitution" to give freedoms to women and men many Muslim states still hold back; and do away with the "volunteer/democratic" Seriat and Caliphate that relied on ignorance and spread disaster. He based Turkish nationalism on a very loose, inclusive, volunteer premise: "Happy is one who **says** 'I am a Turk'". The Ottoman Empire had already disapeared by this time so that there was absolutely no opportunity to "forc[e] many Arab, African, and other minorities to leave...". These minorities had already parted ways following false Allied promises ("self determination" as colonies). If you don't believe me, then just ask Lawrence of Arabia...

I think you so dislike Ataturk because you dislike the West. If he had continued the backward, Caliphate/Seriat and had been millitaristic, I supposed you would have been satisfied.

I cannot go into more. The rest of the drivel is really not worthy of a response. Most of it is self-contradictory anyway...

First, his name was NOT Ataturk, it was Mustapha Kemal. Kemal the authoritarian ruler gave himself the name Ataturk based on his Orwellian strategy of controlling the people. It would have been like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson calling himself The Founding American Father; and everyone thereafter referring to him solely as: The Founding American Father. It is tyrannical, megalomanic, oppressive, authoritarian in the exact Orwellian style.

Kemal betrayed the people of the Ottoman state by claiming his election to prime minister would enable him to revive the khilafah/sultanate in a modern, advanced way. Instead, once elected, he abolished the sultanate, outlawed anyone in favor of it, shaped the Parliementarian procedures to back his Young Turk minions, and forced a secular constitution regardless of the motivations of the people as desiring Islam or a revived sultanate. And he used the military to do all of this, having them kill, murder, imprison, exile opponents. Kemal made ethnic Turk nationalism the foundation of the new nation, forcing many Arab, African, and other minorities to leave, and repressing Kurds and Armenians.

Today, it doesn't matter what Kemal would do because he was a dictator, a tyrant, a bigot, a liar, a womanizer, a traitor, a murderer. Kemalism is a selfish and pathetic idea which has humiliated the people of Turkey, lowering them to begging their former adversaries, even cowering to the lowly Greeks in Cyprus. In the scheme of history stretching 1000 years, the last 80 years of Kemalism have been a disgrace. Turks couldn't defend themselves in Cyprus. Failed to stand against Hitler or the British. Failed to come to the aid of Bosnians that pleaded for their help. The Turkish military failed to help their own people in the Izmir earthquake. The Turkish military gave license to the American invasion of Iraq in 1990, which gave strength to the Kurds, who in turn with American help gave strength to PKK separatists. This time, Turkey refused to support America's invasion of Iraq. Yet the Kurds are now stronger in their support of the PKK. Turkey is now caught up with struggling against a few 1000 lowly Kurdish rebels when they once led the world and had the strongest nation, the strongest military, and was a destination and refuge for millions- now people run from Turkey to work as laborers anywhere. What a shame.

The argument made is consistent, well thought out. However, while consistent, the logic is based on a false premise: That Turkey will join the EU. People forget that the last word on Turkey's membership rests with EU members; every single one of them. So, if EU membership is taken out of the picture, then what are we left with? Would Ataturk orient Turkey in a direction to reach a goal that is unrealistic? Did Ataturk pursue reforms in the 1920s and 1930s predicting that an EU would be established later in the century and Turkey would do anything and everything to join it? I doubt it...

Ataturk was not a rebellion. You have not investigated it well. He established a modern secular republic after fighting and turning the
armies of occupation out from country.This date is not 1908. It is just 1920.

He was the great soldier and the greatest sateman of the world.