Don't forget, Prof. Yusuf halacoglu also said "Crying makes poor history."

Did you know that the 1923 Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, Armenia's First Prime Minister, is perhaps, one of the most valuable “smoking guns”, as it comes from such a highly placed Armenian official and contradicts and disproves the Armenian claims of genocide?

Let's read:

« At the beginning of the fall of 1914 when Turkey had not yet entered the war but had already been making preparations, Armenian revolutionary bands began to be formed in Transcaucasia with great enthusiasm and, with especially, much uproar. Contrary to the decision taken during their general meeting at Erzurum only a few weeks before, the A.R.F. had [actively participated] in the formation of the bands and their future military action against Turkey.

(Source: The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, The First PM of Armenia: “The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) Has Nothing To Do Any More”, Translated from the original by Matthew A. Callender; Edited by John Roy Carlson (Arthur A. Derounian); Published by the Armenian Information Service ; Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave., New York 22, 1955 ; Electronic format available at : www.ataa.org.)

...

You know you genocide crowds do not have a leg to stand on, but you insist on misleading the unsuspecting public anyway. Is lying a national passtime for you?

Here is another admission from an ethnic Turk, Yusuf Halaçoğlu, an ultranationalist who headed the Turkish Historical Society: "22,000 people died before 1915, the year of the forced deportation. 'Will they apologize for those, too? Or will the Armenians announce with whom they cooperated when the Ottoman Empire was fighting world powers? Are they going to publicly announce how many Armenians were part of the French and Russian armies at the time? Armenians, as people who cooperated with the enemy in their own countries, have lost this war. This is the state of affairs as it stands today,' he said." This is very similar to David Irving and the Institute for Historical Review.

Here is another quote from an ethnic Turk for those racists among you who deny that Armenians or Christians are competent to be witnesses to criminal activity: "The trial of those responsible for the Armenian massacres by the Turks has begun in Constantinople. The leader of the Turkish officials being tried at present is Keimal Bey, Governor of Diarbekir. The prosecutor, in opening the trial, said it was necessary to punish the authors of the massacres which had filled the whole world with a feeling of horror." New York Times Feb. 12, 1919

Do you think an Armenian Dashnak was the prosecutor at the Constantinople trials?

As to the death toll being 8,000 that is just like neo-Nazis who claim there were only 3 million Jews in the world in 1933 - you've learned from them well. The New York Times said in 1915: "800,000 Armenians Counted Destroyed." The New York Times Oct. 7, 1915.

Do you think an Armenian Dashnak was in charge of the New York Times too?

It is anti-Armenian racism in fact to dismiss not only Armenian reports of families who were massacred and women who were raped, but also Turkish army officers, judges, and official documents that said the same thing. Is John Heidenrich an Armenian name? Here is his book quoting Mustafa Kemal in 1926: "These leftovers from the Young Turk party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred." How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen 5-6 (2001).

See that? Deported AND MASSACRED, not deported under wonderful and gentle conditions like you claim in a racist way.

Here is another report from the GERMAN Chairman of the Baghdad Railway in Constantinople, Franz Johannes Günther, to the Counsellor at the German Embassy in Constantinople, 10 August 1915: "In the town of Sivas there were no more Armenians to be seen; women and children, old people had been deported to the Uzunjaila area. The old Koran schools of the Seljuks had been turned into prisons that were stuffed full of Armenians; the officer accompanying me said, “We will kill them all.” .... I had also found out that in the area around Ersindjan women and children had been slaughtered by soldiers in the most terrible way, that Red Cross nurses who expressed their indignation were expelled from the country....
I have been in this country for 20 years, and this is the third Armenian persecution that I have observed. I may say that this last one is the most thorough, because it is almost a certainty that the entire population of the Vilayets of Erzurum, Sivas and the bordering provinces has been killed or will be killed."

Was this German railway executive a Dashnakist too?

Americans and Australians do not deny that Native Americans were massacred in a genocide, there are thousands of books and articles about it and no one is placed or jail or murdered for writing them. There are many books by Turks on the genocide of the Armenians too by Pamuk, Akcam, Gocek, etc., but their authors are murdered, imprisoned, or driven into refugee status abroad. Now Cengiz Aktar, a professor at Istanbul's Bahcesehir University, has signed a petition recognizing the Armenian genocide and he will no doubt be criminally prosecuted too.

Anybody who is being massacred would organize self-defense units and request international humanitarian intervention. Jews did it in World War II with partisan activity and political movements in the US, Britain, USSR, etc. Bosnian Muslims did it in the 1990s by linking up with al Qaeda and requesting aid and weapons from Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, USA, Afghanistan, etc. Kosovar Albanians did it in 1990s using same allies. Do you believe there was genocide in Bosnia and Auschwitz or do you deny those too?

You ask : “ Is that enough or are you now going to accuse the Ottoman archives of Dashnakism?”

No, I am not going to accuse the Ottoman archives; I will question your despicable motives in deliberately misinterpreting even the written archives. When it comes to the AFATH community (Armenian Falsifiers and Turk-Haters) one may well add: What else is new?

It is not a “deportation” order, as “deport” suggests sending someone outside the borders of a country. It is a “Tereset” (temporary resettlement) order dated May 27, 1915, which is just that: a resettlement that is temporary.

All the orders, instructions, addendums, etc. all point to how the resettlement will be carried out safely, orderly, and how the resettlers’ belongings will be entered into safe keeping “until they return”.

And return they did, only though, to persecute and kill Muslims, mostly Turks, under Russian and French uniforms.

About 700 thousand Armenians in the war zones were resettled and about 650,000 made it to thgeir destinations; all in archives.

Of the 50,000 or so who didn’t, most perished due to starvation, epidemics, and other elements, as hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the same area due to same reasons.

The Armenians who actually were killed in raids, ambushes, and blood feuds, despite Ottoman protection, were about 8,000, all documented in archives with event reports filed by local authorities. It is a ruthless exaggeration to say they were all corrupt and irresponsible and unscholarly to dismiss such reports.

How this number became 200,000 (after talking to the Armenian patriarch) in the Paris Peace Conference report dated 29 March 1919 is at the crux of the bogus genocide debate.

How that 200,000 figure in 1919 was magically elevated to 1.5 million today is where the Armenian propaganda machine and its Western accomplices come into the picture.

How the Armenians can call it a genocide without even studying the Ottoman archives is where the anti-Turkish and anti-Muslim bias and bigotry come into play.

PLEASE, READ YOUR HISTORY!

( Source: Ermenilerin Zorunlu Göçü, 1915-1917, Kemal Cicek, Turk Tarih Kurumu, Ankara, Turkey, 2005. My translation for your benefit: The Essential Migration of the Armenians, 1915-1917. You can see all the archives explained in a chronological order with actual backdrops there. )

For those who asked for Ottoman archival material, here is an example of one document from the Ottoman archives quoted by Stanford Shaw. it says Abbas Halim Pasha, Ottoman Minister of Public Works in 1915: "He was a member of the cabinet which ordered the deportations entailing the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Christians." Is that enough or are you now going to accuse the Ottoman archives of Dashnakism?

MOSIN-GAFLAN LINE OF THOUGHT BEHIND ARMENIAN AGGRESSION

Dear open-minded truth-seekers,

Please allow me to expose an Armenian falsifier on his own words and distortions here. His words, not mine : “ Beginning in 1895, the Ottomans and the Turks launched a campaign of extermination against the Christian residents of the Ottoman Empire “

Look , on the other hand, what their own Armenian literature says:

“ Beginning in 1893, the fedayees began to use Russian ‘Mosin’ rifles . The distance that a bullet could travel when shot from a ‘Mosin’ rifle was 2,700 meters, while the ‘Martin’,‘Ghapakli’, and ‘Berdan’ rifles that the Turks and Kurds used could reach only 1,200… Mosin rifles were short. They made a sharp sound and produced no smoke, while the other rifles roared and produced smoke that betrayed the location of the shooter… A group of 20 to 25 fedayees was able to resist the attack of hundred of Kurds and Turks with these rifles.”

Source: ”Houshamatyan of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Centennial, Album-Atlas, Volume I, Epic Battles, 1890-1914”(The Next Day Color Printing, Inc., Glendale, CA, U.S.A., 2006) page 3.

Those Mosins killd hundreds of thousands of Muslims, mostly Turkish, from 1893 to 1915, before Tereset had to be enacted by the Ottoman Home Security concerns.

This is what we are dealing with when we talk to Armenians: lies, distortions, spins, falsifications, propaganda, and more…

So if you still buy Armenian genocide claims, buyer beware!

ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI

Son of Turkish Survivors from Both Maternal & Paternal Side

www.turkla.com

Many posts, however:

Our Turkish friends must keep in mind that Turks arrived in Asia Minor literally thousands of years after the Greeks and Armenians, as well as the other (now) minorities living there.

Beginning in 1895, the Ottomans and the Turks launched a campaign of extermination against the Christian residents of the Ottoman Empire. The campaign reached its peak with the Armenians in 1915, and had a secondary peak with the Greeks in 1922. The trail was actually not completed until the masacres of Greeks in 1955 and the expulsion of remaining Greeks in 1964. The result is that whereas 100 years ago there were about 5 million Armenians and Greeks in the Ottoman territories now in Turkey, today there are only a few thousand. (for reference check 'The Ottoman Centuries' by Kinross ... it describes some of the tactics used by the Turks against the Christians throughout that period).

The only ones who think that this was the result of ineptitude or self-defense are Turks and some elements of the US Dept. of State and the British foreign ministry.

The simplest thing that Turks can do is also the honest thing: admit the genocide that took place. Noone is asking for Turkey to pay anything. All anyone is asking is a recognition that it happened. After all, unless Turkey recognizes her actions, Turkey is liable to repeat them (say against the Kurds).

But, to reiterate, contrary to what some claim, the campaign against the Christians started in 1895 and lasted for a good 30 years, with two distinct peaks. The crudest way to put it is that the Ottomans left the way they entered Europe, in a sea of Christian blood; Turkey was born in a sea of Christian blood.

Oh, and for the 'political realists' out there, France has recognized Turkey's actions as genocide, and Turkey is trading extensively with France, thank you very much.

3
Did Nazi Germany try the officials (SS soldiers) for not taking the necessary measures during their relocation and giving rise to the death of Jews like the Ottoman government did in 1916?

(Reporting of Talat Pasha published in Berliner Tageblatt Newspaper on 4 May 1916 ; the order sent to provinces from the Ottoman government dated 1June 1915 from Prime Ministry Ottoman Archieve SHFR, nr 54/9)

What kind of similarity can there be between the Jews Holocaust and death of Armenians in the WWI?

2
Did they get frightened to discuss these events with all the historians of the world? (See the news entitled ‘RA foreign minister didn’t say Armenia agrees to form commission of historians’ on November 26, 2008 in Panarmenian and the news entitled ‘Dashnaks warn Sarkisian over Armenian genocide study’ on July 9, 2008 in Armenia Liberty; and also see http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/august_2004/history001.html)

Did the Jews establish outlawed terrorist organizations like ASALA, JCAG (Justice Commandos for Armenian Genocide) and ARA (Armenian Revolutionary Army) and did they perform dozens of murders and hundreds of terrorist activities, like the Armenians did?

(http://www.ataa.org/reference/topalian/VIS6_Berkoz_Affidavit.pdf; Michael M. Gunter, 'Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People': A Study of Contemporary Armenian Terrorism, Wesport-New York, Greenwood Press, 1986, p. 74; Gunter Lewy, 'Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People:' A Study of Contemporary Armenian Terrorism, pp. 99-100).

1.
The Armenians try to consider the death of Armenians in WWI, equivalent of Jewish Holocaust. There is not any similarity:

First, unlike the Jewish Holocaust, which was proven before the Nuremburg Tribunal with the trappings of due process, there has been no kind of court decision nor has the Armenians ever applied to any court. Moreover, International Court of Justice or domestic courts are the only authorities reserved to prosecute and proclaim genocide according to the 1948 UN Convention. Therefore, the Armenian allegation of genocide lacks evidence and legal support.

I call the readers of the forum to ask themselves these questions:

Did the Jews urge the parliaments to pass resolutions to recognize that the events which took place in WWII were genocide? Did they bargain with the politicians of the country they live, to write their history and pass resolutions as they wished it to have been in exchange of Jewish votes?

Did they close their archives and prevent the historians from making research?

Section 4

That is, the Armenian ancestors who created their history and the Armenian historians who wittnessed this period are the main deniers! Who are they? The top representatitives of the Otoman Armenians, Dashnags and prime ministers of Armenia!

So, it is not surprising that both the book of Hovannes Katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the Armenian state, ‘Dashnagzoutiun Has Nothing to do Anymore’ and the book of K.S.Papazian ‘Patrionism Perverted’ are banned in Armenia. It is also a fact that all the copies of the book of Hovannes Katchaznouni, in all languages were collected from the libraries in Europe by Dashnags. The book is included in the catalogues but no copies can be found in the racks.

Yes, they can ban the books of the makers of their history, they can buy politicians by their votes and urge them to accept historical resolutions and memorial laws in their parliaments, they can threaten the historians who do not support their thesis, they can sue them as they did Prof Bernard Lewis, they can even bomb their houses as they did bomb the house of Prof Stanford Shaw in 1977

(http://209.232.239.37/gtd1/ViewIncident.aspx?id=56624); but they can never ban scholar thought and silence the historians of the world!

Note that Pierre Nora, president of the association ‘Liberty for history’ founded in 2005, has recently stated that the history should not be a slave to currency or written under the dictation of competing memoirs;
in a free state, it does not belong to any political authority to define the historical truth and restrict freedom of the historian under threat of criminal sanctions.
In a democracy, freedom for history is the freedom of all

(http://www.lph-asso.fr//articles/46.html, . http://www.lph-asso.fr//tribunes/49.html)

Section 3

KS Papazian the writer of ‘Patriotism Perverted’ published in 1934, in Boston was also a denier. Because:

Papazian critized A. Khatisian and the then prime minister S.Vratzian for not publishing the text of Treaty of Gümrü which they signed on December 2, 1920 to put an end to the war between Turkey and the Armenian Republic on December 2, 1920, which coincided with the entrance of Bolsheviks in Armenia.

Papazian also stated that the Armenian prime minister Simon Vratzian applied to the Turkish government on March 18, 1921 and asked military help of the Turks against the Bolsheviks!

Of course, even these few examples give great harm to the present Armenian thesis and lead people to question the Armenian’s innocence, their predominance in Ottoman population, and most importantly their genocide thesis.

Of course, the fact that Turks offered the Dashnaks an autonomous Armenia (made up of Russian Armenia and the three Turkish vilayets of Erzurum, Van and Bitlis) under the suzerainty of the Ottoman Empire’, if they joined the Turkish side and stopped supporting the Russians, the other fact that the executive committee of the Dashnagzoutiun rejected the proposal in August 1914 before the war broke and that they rejected all Turkish calls of negotiations repeated during WWI too, are the major points that are not wanted by the Armenians to be known

(Garo Pastırmacıan, Why Armenia Should be Free?, Boston, Dec.1918, Hairenik Publishing Company p. 16-17 and Papers relating to the foreign relations of the United States The Paris Peace Conference 1919 , United States Government Printing Office, 1948, Vol IV, p 139-157).

Of course they fear a question of why the Turks did offer autonomy to Armenians if they decided to eradicate them.

They also fear the question of why and how the Armenian prime minister Simon Vratzian applied the Turkish government on March 18, 1921 and asked military help of the Turks against the Bolsheviks, in spite of the fact that the Turks committed a (so-called) genocide and murdered 1.5 million Armenians!

Section 2

Hovannes Katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the Armenian state founded in 1918 and the prime authority of the Dashnagzoutiun Party who wrote a book ‘Dashnagzoutiun Has Nothing to do Anymore’ was also another chief denier. Because, in his book which is banned in Armenia at present, he stated that

*it was a mistake to establish the volunteer units.
*They were unconditionally allied with Russia,
*They massacred the Moslem population,
*The Armenian terrorist acts were directed, at winning the Western public opinion.
*British occupation aroused hopes of the Dashnaks,
*They were provoked by imperial Sea to Sea land demand,
*They had not taken into consideration Turkey’s power,
* They should have used a peaceful language towards the Turks but they (Armenian Dashnaks) rejected the Turks who suggested to negotiate with them and they went on making war
(KS Papazian the writer of ‘Patriotism Perverted’ published in 1934, in Boston, also confirms this Turkish suggestion. Note that ‘Patrionism Perverted’ is banned in Armenia).
*The decision of the deportation of Armenians was a rightful measure taken by Turks.
*Turkey had acted with an instinct of self-defence.
*Their government was a Dashnak dictatorship.
*The fault was within the Dashnak Party. They should commit suicide. They had nothing to do.

Vratsyan, the last prime minister of Dashnaks who wrote in an article published in December 3 1920 issue of Araç, that they transformed Armenia to an arenna of endless wars with its neighbours for the Entente Powers (RGASPİ fond 80, list 4, file 83, sheet 136) was another chief denier and agent of Turkish government.

The Armenian Soviet historian A.A.Lalayan who stated that the Dashnaks displayed extreme courage to massacre Turkish women, children and ill and old people

(Contrarevolyutsionnıy ‘Daşnaktsutyun’ İ İmperialisti-çeskaya Voyna 1914-1918 gg.’, Revolyutsionnıy Vostok, No.2-3, p.92, 1936) was an Armenian denier and he was also hired by the Turkish government even before its establishment (1923).

Armenian T. Haçikoğlyan who told that the Dashnaks eradicated thousands of Turks with their bloody hands (T. Haçikoglyan, 10 Let Armyanskoy Sttrelkovoy Divizii,p4-6. İzdatelstvo Polit. Uprav. KKA, Tiflis, 1930) was also a denier and agent of Turkish government.

Section 1

Whoever tells about historical events which abolish the imaginary past of the Armenians are labelled as ‘deniers’, as ‘agents of Turkish government’, or ‘people hired by the Turkish government’ or ‘disingenous scholars/authorities’ by them. Now, here are the names of Armenians who comply with the these terms:

“Garo Pasdermichan (Pastirmaciyan), the Ottoman deputy of Erzurum and commander of all the Armenian officials and soldiers of the Ottoman Third Army which joined the Russian Army in 1914, was the main denier. Because, he wrote in his book ‘Why Armenia Should Be Free’ (Boston, Dec.1918, Hairenik Publishing Company p. 16-17) that annual Congress of Armenian Party Dashnagzoutiun was held in Erzurum in August 1914, before the war broke, and Turkish emissaries offered Dashnaks an autonomous Armenia (made up of Russian Armenia and the three Turkish vilayets of Erzurum, Van and Bitlis) under the suzerainty of the Ottoman Empire’, if they joined the Turkish side and stopped supporting the Russians.

He also stated that the executive committee of the Dashnagzoutiun rejected the proposal! The Armenian members of this parley were the well-known publicist E.Aknouni, the representative from Van, A.Vramian, and the director of the Armenian schools in the district of Erzurum, Mr Rostom.

Another main denier was Boghos Noubar Pasha, the Armenian National Delegation President in The Paris Peace Conference 1919 who also stated that the Turks offered them autonomy in August 1914, much before the deportation, but they rejected this proposal and placed themselves without hesitation on the side of the Entente Powers from whom they expected liberation

[Papers relating to the foreign relations of the United States The Paris Peace Conference 1919 (United States Government Printing Office, 1948, Vol IV, p 139-157)].

Armenian Boghos Noubar Pasha, who told that ‘150 000 Armenian volunteers in Russian Army were the only forces against Turks’ (Times of London , 1919 Jan 30 Link: http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/10/2013-150-000-armenian-volunteers-in.html) was obviously a denier and agent of Turkish government.

WHAT IS GAFLAN?

1/5

Dear open-minded truth-seekers,

Armenian falsifier s are hard at work trying to ridicule those facts that are unpleasant and/or deleterious to their bogus genocide claims. But,those facts keep pouring out nevertheless, turning fast into a tsunami. Why is it that these facts are pouring out now?

Armenians came to this country generations before Turks did and they defined what Turkish-Armenian history shall be. There were no Turks to tell the other side of the story, not that any effort was made to seek out the other side of the story.

In those days, if a story was anti-Turkish enough, it got published instantly. Never mind checking the sources or hearing the other side of the story.

As a result, the Armenian tales got so tall, so reckless, and so ridiculous, that even the Armenian dead started multiplying!

Paris Peace Conference report dated 29 March 1919 gave the number as “more than 200,000” which was pumped into 1.5 million by the Armenian falsifiers (like the ones who write nothing but hateful messages here.)

No one questioned this simple but blatant and wild exaggeration.

No one seemed to have reasoned, if even the façade of the genocide claims are this fake, this embellished, this unreliable, how bad are the exaggerations in backdrop of the Armenian tales?

WHAT IS GAFLAN?

2/5

Countless Armenian ambushes, raids, rebellions, treasonous activities, and blatant Armenian war crimes in the period 1890-1920, were simply white washed.

That’s why my folks’ suffering was never heard in this country. Throw into this mix elements of strong anti-Turkish prejudice, anti-Muslim bias, and pro-ally feeling in those days.

While these might explain lopsided coverage of the Turkish-Armenian conflict then, they do not explain more or less the same lopsided coverage in some segments of the media today. They have a catchy term to cover this bias and bigotry: consensus.

Consensus based on what? One side of the story; as in exaggerations and misrepresentations found in the body of war literature of WWI. So, the lies grew upon themselves, like mushrooms.

Case in point: The New York Times published 145 embellished and distorted accounts of WWI from Armenian revolutionaries, clergy, and other activists and other pro-Armenian sources (diplomats, missionaries, etc.) who all had a vested interest in telling the story one way in the year 1915 while allowing—Are you ready for this—Zero rebuttals, zero responses, and /or commentaries from Turks, i.e. the other side of the story. Yes, such was the depth and breadth of bias and bigotry in those days. 145 days versus zero days…

Think about it!

WHAT IS GAFLAN?
3/5

To answer this question, let's first fast forward from 1915 to 1992. The Soviet Union has collapsed and new states are formed. Armenia is one them. There is much excitement , confusion, happiness, and fanfare everywhere.

You would think the first thing a newly independent state would do is to secure democracy, human liberties in pursuit of happiness, increased welfare, peace and prosperity for its citizens, right? As in build more schools, factories, roads, bridges, etc? Well, you would be wrong.

You know what the first thing Armenian did?

Attack its neighbors!

This time, instead of Russian made Mosin rifles (1893-1921), the Armenians had Russian tanks and advisors helping them. Azerbaijanis had nothing. Armenia first attacked Karabag, deep inside Azerbaijan, a sovereign nation next door.

After killing most of the Azeri inhabitants of the region, Armenians waged a bloody campaign of ethnic cleansing of all Azeris in the areas between Karabagh and Armenia. More than a million Azeri folks, women, children, and all, were forced by armed Armenia thugs to leave their homes at gun point.

Those refugees are still living in leaky tents since 1992 trying to survive brutal Caucasus winters and scorching summers with little food or medicine.

WHAT IS GAFLAN?

4/5

While that human tragedy was unfolding, Armenian falsifiers in America, like the one who writes here, blocked the humanitarian aid to Azeri refugees by applying political pressure.

Gaflan is the name given to para-military Armenian thugs whose job it was to burn the corpses of freshly killed non-combatant Azeri civilians, men, women, children, and all, in order not to leave any evidence of pogrom (and genocide claims) behind.

Hitler’s Nazis burned the Jews in gas ovens alive; Gaflan Armenian burned Azeris in wood/coal burning ovens right after Azeris were shot .

The stench was so bad that the Gaflan Armenians were wearing wet towels on their noses to filter the smell. Some were throwing up, others lost their appetite. Small price to pay for the dastardly hate crimes the Armenians committed, wouldn't you say?

Both Hitler’s Nazis and Gaflan Armenians burned their victims;

Both Both Hitler’s Nazis and Gaflan Armenians used ovens to do it;

And both Both Hitler’s Nazis and Gaflan Armenians failed to show the slightest signs of remorse, let alone offering any apology, to this very day (the Armenian falsifier who writes here included.)

WHAT IS GAFLAN?

5/5

What is its significance?

Gaflan is the latest link in the chain that is called Greater Armenia, an age old pipe dream that drove Armenians into blood-thirsty animals armed with Russian Mosins (1890-1921) or Russian tanks (1992- to present.)

Greater Armenia is the intent and motive; Mosin and Gaflan are the tools.

Mosin-Gaflan line of thought is the reason why Armenia still demands territories from its neighbors: North-Eastern Anatolia from Turkey; Javakheti region from Georgia; Karabagh and Western Azerbaijan from Azerbaijan; and North-Western tip from Iran. Don’t take my word for it; just look at the maps racist Armenian newspapers publish almost daily.

Mosin-Gaflan mentality is the scourge of humanity on a par with genocide, perceived or factual.

Ergun Kirlikovali

Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides

www.turkla.com

Kirlikovali, you make NO sense. "Armenians.. killed Turkish women and children"? - but for some reason it's the soil Armenians inhabited for thousands of years that is has been cleansed from Armenians and now bears little trace of them.

Perhaps Armenians used Mosin to kill themselves? And then demolished Armenian cathedrals and churches? Way to create a Greater Armenia...

Your whole "story" makes little sense - make sure you think it over before making it public. Or better else - be a man, look the truth in the eyes - and change it. It'll feel much better...

Yesterday: Armenians, armed with Russian Mosins (1893-1920) killed Muslim, mostly Turkish women and children, waged terror campaigns and rebellions; resorted to treason; and covered them all up with propaganda.

Today: Armenians, armed with Russian tansk and advisors (1992-1994) killed Muslim, mostly Azeri women and children, waged terror campaigns and ethnic cleansing capiagns; and covered them all up with propaganda.

The "intent" and the "motive"? Achieving the same pipe dream: establishing greater ARmenian on neighbors' soil.

What has changed?

what a shame: http://www.bloggernews.net/118982

Here are some excellent quotes - say it all:

"If nations are allowed to commit genocide with impunity, to hide their guilt in a camouflage of lies and denials, there is a real danger that other brutal regimes will be encouraged to attempt genocides. Unless we speak today of the Armenian genocide and unless the Government recognises this historical fact, we shall leave this century of unprecedented genocides with this blot on our consciences."
-- Caroline, Baroness Cox, House of Lords, April 1999

"The Turkish denial [of the Armenian Genocide] is probably the foremost example of historical perversion. With a mix of academic sophistication and diplomatic thuggery -- of which we at Macquarie University have been targets -- the Turks have put both memory and history into reverse gear."
-- Prof. Colin Tatz, Director,
Centre for Comparative Genocide Studies
(Centre for Genocide Studies Newsletter,
(December 1995-January 1996))

"The nearest successful example [of collective denial] in the modern era is the 80 years of official denial by successive Turkish governments of the 1915-17 genocide against the Armenians in which 1.5 million people lost their lives. This denial has been sustained by deliberate propaganda, lying and coverups, forging documents, suppression of archives, and bribing scholars."
-- Stanley Cohen, Professor of Criminology,
Hebrew University, Jerusalem
(Law and Social Inquiry vol. 20, no. 1 (Winter 1995): 7, 50)

(and thanks for the Zoryan institute reference ;)

Guys, why don't you ask Ahmadinejad if he has any proof that Holocaust didn't happen? I am sure he can dig out tons of "evidence" (the same or better quality than yours), some quotes from "militant" Jewish fighters (who "provoked" Nazis) etc. etc.

You seem to be hand-picking sentences out of context - presumably to mislead underinformed readers. You quote Sarafian? Why not mention the website of the Zoryan institute he heads? Here it is http://www.zoryaninstitute.org/ - did you have a look at it? Did you do your due diligence to go over http://www.zoryaninstitute.org/Table_Of_Contents/main_genocide.htm?

What all your "study" is worth? (and all you - mr kirikovali - masking yourself under different nicknames?). One word - it's pathetic.

STOP DECEIVING YOURSELF - DO SOME GOOD FOR YOUR NATION!

The following excerpts may be help Mr/Mrs Kalayjiana carry out her studies on psychological aspects of this issue:

1) From the book 'Dashnagtzoutiun has Nothing to do Anymore' by Hovhannes Katchaznouni, Bucarest 1923. Kaynak Yayınları, İstanbul. S. 37).
(Hovhannes Katchaznouni was the first prime minister of Armenia and chief of Dashnagtzoutiun Party):

‘To complain bitterly about our bad luck, and to seek external causes for our misfortune, that is one of the main aspects of our national psychology from which, of course, the Dashnagzoutiun is not free. One might think we found a spiritual consolidation in the conviction that the Russians behaved villainously towards us (later it would be the turn of the French, the Americans, the British, the Georgians, Bolsheviks –the whole world- to be so blamed)!’

2) From US ARCHIVES NARA, 860 J.00/:

'The French helped the Cilician Armenians (Cilicia is a region in Southern Anatolia) return their homes after they had been relocated in 1915. The Armenians who returned their homes (therefore, unlike it is proposed by the Armenians, they were not massacred) fought in French Army, being promised an independent state in Cilicia.

However, when the French government signed the Treaty of Ankara with Mustafa Kemal (Atatuk) government, these Armenians were very dissappointeda and they started to hold anti French campaigns and vehemently CLAIMED THAT THE FRENCH MASSACRED THE ARMENIANS IN CILICIA (US ARCHIVES NARA, 860 J.00/1)

3) A letter of The American Committe for Armenian Independence to the Foreign Affairs of America, dated November 4, 1920, stated that the French punished the Armenians since the Sevres Agreement; so the only friend of the Armenians was America, so they demanded help of America.

4) From the book 'Dashnagtzoutiun has Nothing to do Anymore' by Hovhannes Katchaznouni, Bucarest 1923. Kaynak Yayınları, İstanbul. p.70):

‘.....and later there followed the rude awakening. The Senate of the US refused to accept mandate.

4.
See the articles published in Turkish newspaper 'Taraf' which seem as if they were written by the Armenian diaspora and published in Turkey, in Turkish (http://www.taraf.com.tr).

The historians who are known to support the Armenian thesis who were invited to XI. Turkish History Congresses to talk about the Armenian thesis did not even give any reply to these invitations. Here are examples: Garin Zedlian, Prof. Dr. Anthony BRYER, Prof. Dr. M.MARMURA, Prof. Dr. Allan CUNNIGHAM, Prof. Dr. Wolf Dietrich HUTTEROTH, Prof. Dr. Richard HOVANNISIAN, Dr. Gerard LIBARDIAN, Prof. Dr. Vahakn DADRIAN, Tessa HOFFMAN, (http://genocide.blogcu.com/1481695/)

As a most important point, Turkish historians, Turkish prime minister and Turkish Assembly several times suggested Armenia to discuss these events together with historians from both sides and historians from other countries. Everybody in Turkey knows very well that those who advocate the Armenian thesis most passionately are the Armenians themselves.

Could anybody tell me again if Turkey is muzzling scholars who support Armenian thesis, then why did Turkish prime minister and Turkish Assembly several times call on Armenia to discuss these events with whoever they choose?

3.

Additionally, could anybody tell me, if Armenian thesis were banned in Turkey and if Turkey silences historians or academicians who support the Armenian thesis, then how could the Armenian historian Ara Sarafyan who is the general director of Gomitas Institute in London, give a conference on the thesis of Armenian genocide in İstanbul and discuss them with the Turkish citizens?

http://www.turkishdailynews.co4m.tr/article.php?enewsid=102831, http://www.ercis.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=875, http://www.milliyet.com.tr/default.aspx?aType=HaberDetay&Kategori=siyaset&ArticleID=520804&Date=25.04.2008.

2.
I wonder how Fatma Müge Göçek, a Turkish origined scholar, who supports the Armenian thesis has been working in the same Institute as a board member
(http://www.turkishstudies.org/about.html); how she could give conferences supporting the Armenian views up till now.

She is the second Turkish origined academician the Armenians approve after Taner Akçam http://www.armeniangenocide.com/showthread.php?t=2471 http://www.eraren.org/index.php?Lisan=tr&Page=Makaleler&MakaleNo=3008

The Turkish government should have applied the real pressure over her and should not have let her talk in conferences held by the Armenians, if its intention were to support only people who supports it. Does anybody care about it?

1.

The Armenians claim passionately that Turks committed a genocide which is the greatest crime of the world and requires strong evidences and court decision.

But it can not be understood why they severely avoid of admitting to international courts and also avoid of bringing their evidences before historical commissions made up of Armenian, Turkish historians and historians from third countries.

They also claim that anybody who opposes their genocide claims are the spokesmen/agents of the Turkish government and they really want to believe that the Turkish people are not allowed to speak about their thesis, but if they are let they will accept that their ancestors were criminals of genocide.

However, we the Turks also heard stories and memories from our grandparents about the terrible and unbelievable massacres the Armenians displayed upon Turks and know very well that most of the evidences the Armenians present are forgeries.

WHAT IS MOSIN? 1/3

Look what HOUSHAMATYAN OF THE ARMENIAN REVOLUTIONARY FEDERATION, Centennial, Album-Atlas, Volume I, EPIC BATTLES, 1890-1914”(The Next Day Color Printing, Inc., Glendale, CA, U.S.A., 2006) says on page 30:

“…While the founding fathers of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation were advocating the party ideology, freedom fighters were already waging epic battles for freedom.”

Epic battles?

Armenians just cannot seem to decide whether they are “poor, starving souls” or “fighters waging epic battles”. You are either one or the other, right? You cannot have the cake and eat it, too, correct?

Let’s continue reading page 30:

“…The Armenian ‘Fedayee’ movement began with the martyrdom of Arabo and other freedom fighters. The fedayees were the Armenian fighters who sacrificed themselves for their people and fatherland…

Mmmm. This sounds more like “insurgents fighting for independence” rather than poor, starving Armenians, to me.

What do you think, open-minded truth-seeker?
Many men?

Just how many exactly ?

(I know the answer, I bet the Armenian falsifier below has no idea. After all, Armenians don’t teach their young such self-incriminatory facts...)

Let’s continue reading page 30:

WHAT IS MOSIN? 2/3

“…The ‘raya’, or oppressed Armenians, also learned how to bear arms in order defend their lives, honor, land, and country…”

If Armenians learned how to bear arms and use them, then it is no longer poor, starving Armenian myth, is it?

Isn’t it obvious that these were well armed fighting man? Here it is, directly from the horse’s mouth… What genocide?

Now, for the clincher, let’s go to page 241:

"…This movement, became and obsession, even a disease, for many men…"

Obsession?

Like what this Armenian falsifier screaming genocide below has?

Disease?

Like this Armenian falsifier below with a foul mouth and a poison pen might have?

Page 241:

“…Beginning in 1893, the fedayees began to use Russian ‘Mosin’ rifles. The distance that a bullet could travel when shot from a “Mosin” rifle was 2,700 meters, while the ‘Martin’,‘Ghapakli’, and ‘Berdan’ rifles that the Turks and Kurds used could reach only 1,200. ..”

WHAT IS MOSIN? 3/3
“…Mosin rifles were short. They made a sharp sound and produced no smoke, while the other rifles roared and produced smoke that betrayed the location of the shooter. A group of 20 to 25 fedayees was able to resist the attack of hundred of Kurds and Turks with these rifles…”
Those Mosins killed my people, Turks, Kurds, Circassians, and other Muslims, by hundreds of thousands.
And those Armenians armed with Mosins were no “poor, starving Armenians” as deceptively promoted; they were vicious killers bent on creating a greater Armenia on Turkish soil. They were using Armenian women and children where they had to, as human shield, to cover their despicable terror acts or to escape retribution from relatives of the Muslim victims.
What was happening there was no genocide; it was clearly a civil war.
Ergun Kirlikovali
Son of Turkish Survivors from both Paternal and Maternal Sides
www.turkla.com

Dear Mrs. Erkin Baker

Did you have a chance to read kirikovali's comments (or you were focusing on those who "returned the fire"? The "names" he calls Armenians - me, for example? I am - for your information - also a US citizen, and also pay taxes - plenty of money - and each year ;).

If I were you, I'd rather call on mr kirikovali to keep his racist comments down. These are so uncivilized...

As to Nagorno-Karabakh people's drive for independence from your "younger brothers" - it's an entirely different subject, although fits to a larger context of Armenian Genocide. The same methods of attempted ethnic cleansing of Armenians from their historic homeland, the same pogroms (Sumgait and Baku), the same reason of having "confused identity". This time, however, your kin faced not only unarmed men, women and children... and see what happened! *Now* you are crying foul!

akasya - a short answer to your question "Why are the Armenians terribly afraid of establishment of historical joint commissions?"

Imagine Ahmadinejad proposes to establish a joint commission with Israeli/Jewish Diaspora to "investigate if Holocaust happened". What would be the answer of Jews? Hmmm, is it difficult to imagine?

So - AGAIN - Armenian Genocide is dead proven historic fact. If you are so naive to believe that "there's no evidence" - just bother to read some independent sources. Also I'd recommend http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=935 - a VERY informative a professional report around the subject.

Also, tell me where's the logic - Turkish state puts anybody who mentions Armenian Genocide in jail - but at the same time declares "let's work together to establish the truth".

Finally - don't you see how the subject of Genocide is used against your country - whenever there's a need to pull a stick against Turkey, somebody brings forward this issue (which, if you think about it, would be impossible if it didn't have a historic merit)? It's going to haunt you, your children and grandchildren! Address this NOW! Learn from Germans, Americans, Australians and others - come clean, apologize, even make some symbolic retributions - it'll cost you MUCH LESS.

Denial of Armenian Genocide is immoral, sick and pathetic (even your "allies" - i.e. folks whom you finance privately pity you!) - but also STUPID!

Reading the comments posted on this subject (Turkish-American Relations Could Chill Come January), one comes across several inaccuracies. The most glaring of these is the statement that the United Nations recognizes the tragedies that befell the Armenians during World Wor I as genocide. This is not true.

"The United Nations has not approved or endorsed a report labeling the Armenian experience as genocide." This statement was made by Farhan Haq, U.S. spokesman, on October 5, 2000; and, to date, it stands.

On the other hand, the U.N. has passed several resolutions condemning the occupation of Azeri territory by the Armenian Republic, demanding that the occupation of this region should come to an end. Last March 14, the General Assembly adopted another resolution in which it called for the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of the Armenian forces "from all the occupied territories of the Republic of Azerbaijan".

On a December 6 posting, "Kalayjiana" states that he/she is a psychology professor and gives advice on how the Turks should be treated to be liberated from their feelings of guilt. Perhaps his/her advice should also go to the Armenians as to how to get rid of their feelings of revenge and hatred towards the Turks.

Turks should not be blamed for keeping their borders closed to their neighbor. After all, the Republic of Armenia has the drawing of Mount Ararat that belongs to Turkey on the Armenian flag. Also, their official documents refer to Eastern Turkey as "Western Armenia". If the Mexican government were to do a similar thing, i.e. show Texas within their borders on their map, and put the drawing of the Alamo on their flag, would not the United States close their border with Mexico as well?

Lastly, Mr. Ergun Kirlikovali is an American citizen and a taxpayer. He has every right to voice his opinion on political matters that affect our foreign policy and interests. To call him names, such as some people have done in this blog, is rather uncivilized.

Mrs. Erkin Baker

It would be particularly stupid of Obama if, like an insular, partisan American special interest group that gets a political voice with enough money, restricted and redefined American foreign policy with Turkey and the Black Sea based on events 90 years ago.

Right now, Turkey is moving farther ahead and beyond American regional interests and policies than this article suggests. Turkey dwarfs Armenia as a regional state, yet Turkey and Armenia are building new relations based on their mutual regional interests despite and regardless of America and Armenian American lobbyists. Turkey is strengthening its Black Sea relations, militarly, economically. Turkey is building new relations with Russia since the Georgian incident. Turkey also has close ties with Mediterranean economic cooperation plans regardless of America.
Obama would be a fool to play to Armenian American cries based in California. It would show him to be a sophmoric politican strangled by the ghosts of the past rather a forward thinking leader.

VI
If a genocide had really occured, why did Brian Ardouny of the Armenian Assembly of America announce ‘We don’t need to prove the genocide historically, because it has already been accepted politically’? Why did the chief of the Armenian Archives in Armenia tell that they were not interested in the achives, but all they are interested is the world’s public opinion.

In your life, have you ever seen a criminal who persistently calls the victim to bring his evidences? And, have you ever seen a victim who passionately accuses somebody of committing crime and giving him great harm but strictly avoids of bringing his proofs before the referees or going to court, and tells that he need not prove that person’s guilt, because the community has already accepted him as guilty?

In this situation would you not ask the question of in which era you are living. 5000 BC or 7000 BC?

What else should the Turks do to face with their history? Is it Turkey/Turks or Armenia and those
who support them who are terribly afraid of facing with their history?

V

Why are the Armenians terribly afraid of establishment of historical joint commissions

(See the news entitled ‘RA foreign minister didn’t say Armenia agrees to form commission of historians’ on November 26, 2008 in Panarmenian and the news entitled ‘Dashnaks warn Sarkisian over Armenian genocide study’ on July 9, 2008 in Armenia Liberty; and also see http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/august_2004/history001.html

Even, Armenian historian Ara Sarafian from Gomitas Institute and Hilmar Kaiser searched the Ottoman archives. See the documentary (www.sarigelinbelgeseli.com)

IV

*In spite of this, why are the Armenian archives still closed? The archives of Taşnak (Dashnak) Party is present in Zoryan Armenian Institute in Boston. Both Turkish government and Turkish History Foundation offered the Armenians to open these archives; but the directors of the Zoryan Institute replied that they did not have enough money to open the archives. Turkish government and Turkish History Foundation promised financial support.Why did the Armenians refuse this suggestion too? (Nüzhet Kandemir, http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/418517.asp). Note that Zoryan Institute has quite enough money to provide financial support for Taner Akçam who advocated the Armenian claims while working in Minnesota University until recently.

III

*The Ottoman and Turkish archives are open, unlike it is claimed by the diaspora. http://www.ankara.edu.tr/english/yazi.php?yad=36.http://www.tsk.mil.tr/ENGLISH/8_FRAGMENTS_FORM_HISTORY/8_1_Armenian_Issues/issues/Armenian_Activities_in_the_Archive_Documents/Armenian_Activities_in_the_Archive_Documents.html;
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/kitap.asp?kitap=991.

*And the Turkish prime minister repeated the same invitation on February 2008 , in Munich at the 44th Security Conference where the Armenian Minister of Foreign Affairs Mr. Oskanian also attended?

In neither of these invitations was there any precondition, unlike it is claimed by the Armenians.

*Why did the Armenian historian Sarafyan, who accepted the invitation of the then chief of Turkish History Foundation, Halacoglu, for cooperation to investigate Harput events, abandon the project, after talking the Armenian diaspora?

I
The Armenians are sure that Armenian genocide really occured and claim that Turkey does not want to face with her history. On the other hand, they persistently refuse Turkey’s suggestions to discuss these events together with historians from both sides, in spite of this claim. For example:

*In 2004, the Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform (VAT) was founded to exchange documents about the 1915 events by Austrian, Turkish and Armenian historians. After receiving 100 Turkish documents, the Armenians refused to send their documents which they promised, to the Turkish historians and afterwards the Armenian foreign minister announced that they did not want to discuss the 1915 events with historians.

*Armenia refused the Turkish prime minister's and the Turkish Assembly's invitation announced on April 13, 2005 which suggested to establish a Joint Commission composed of historians from both sides and discuss the events which took place during the 1st World War.

*Turkey sent full page ads to five popular newspapers of the United States (US) calling on Armenia to ‘bring light the events of 1915 together with Turkey and to establish a joint commission composed of historians from both sides in addition to historians from other nations’, in April 2007.

Mosin-Gaflan? kirikovali, search the page to see that you are the only one mentioning the "line of thought"... any good doctors in your area (LA, right?)

looks like these Armenians finally got you... ;)

It always astonishes me when somebody brings the "as many Turks as Armenians died in the same period" argument; even assuming the numbers are close (which I doubt) Turks who died were mostly soldiers fighting the Western front, while Armenians... pretty much everybody - men, women, children, elderly.

It's as if somebody claims Holocaust is a myth because two times more Germans died during the 2nd World War than Jews. Really, astonishing...

kirikovali: what? you don't like turkish "relocation" techniques you are so fearlessly defending when they are applied to others? where's the logic?

anyone?

Let me repeat my questions:

What is Mosin?

What is Gaflan?

What does Mosin-Gaflan line of thought signify?

Anyone?

Turkey's prime ministers Tansu Ciller and Bulent Ecevit called the events in Bosnia and Kosovo "genocide" even though they were (1) civil wars with (2) terrorist acts by rebels linked to al Qaeda and (3) resulted in thousands of deaths on both sides, not millions of civilians of identifable Armenian, Assyrian, and Greek minorities as in World War I and its aftermath. Although Turks also died in World War I and the Turkish war to destroy Armenian and GReek communities from 1920 to 1925, that was because they tried to invade and take over the Russian Empire and all of Central Asia to Afghanistan.

Look at the last two postings? Am I not right claiming that these people are the KKK?

They are not only aggressive, disrespectful, and loud, but also ignorant. Sahll I prove it?

Here we go:

What is Mosin?

What is Gaflan?

What does Mosin-Gaflan line of thought signify?

I propose "relocating" kirlikovali using the same exact methods as described in http://news.google.com/archivesearch?as_ldate=1915&as_hdate=1916&q=armenia+|+armenian&lnav=od&btnG=Search

I am sure he'll change his opinion about the Genocide (if hi makes it to the "destination", of course).

votes?

Wow Ergun KIRLIKOVALI, you just never stop dribbling do you.

Keep up your fantasy - you are indeed the new persecuted "Jews". The SS are coming to wake you from your bed to force a genocide confession. Then they will tatoo a number on your forearm before forcibly marching you out into the Syrian deserts ...oops I mixed up my genocides.

Your willingness to conflate the apocalyptic sufferings of entire peoples with your wounded national pride is disgusting.

GENOCIDE CROWDS ARE THE NEW KKK

Part 1 of 2

Turks are the new Jews. Genocide crowds are the new KKK. Although there has been no due process or a jury verdict by a competent tribunal, these genocide crowds already made up their minds about the Turkish-Armenian conflict. Facts, figures no longer matter to these lynch mobs.

These genocide lynch mobs burn crosses not on Turkish lawns (yet,) but in public conscience. They claim, scream, and attack… They insult, intimidate and terrorize… They already have their chosen verdict in their minds which comforts their anti-Turkish bias: Turks are guilty and there is no need to discuss this verdict; it is execution time… get the rope!

To these genocide lynch mobs, there is only one side to their coin: their side… The Armenian side… Armenians are all white; Turks are all black. And that’s that… They want you to believe their bigoted black & white picture. There is no gray areas for them. So, don’t even think of bringing it up, or you will be labeled a denier and hung in their mind and soul.

If you believe these genocide lynch mobs, they’ll love you instantly. And if you question them even in the lightest degree, they will hate you instantly. This love/hate relationship is evident in all of their letters, op-eds, newspaper columns, books, documentaries, full feature films, and more. They are so arrogant about it that they see no reason to hide it or sugar coat it.

These genocide lynch mobs will have you believe that April 24, 1915, is the start of their bogus genocide. What happened that day? The Ottoman Government Home Security forces launched a drag net operation and arrested the Armenian ring leaders who were involved in terrorist attacks, rebellions, and/or treasonous acts. These were seemingly respectable Armenian community leaders— just like that Topalian fellow whose pictures with American presidents adorned his office before he was convicted of terrorism charges a few years back. To Armenians, April 24, 1915 was genocide (how hollow, meaningless, and unjustified.) To Turks, it represents defending your home against domestic terrorist cells, sort of like an Ottoman-Guantanamo.

Ergun KIRLIKOVALI

Son Of Turkish Survivors From Both Maternal And Paternal Sides

www.turkla.com

GENOCIDE CROWDS ARE THE NEW KKK

Part 2 of 2

Neither can you debate with these genocide lynch mobs, the Armenian rebellions that started in 1890 and went uninterrupted until the most heinous and bloodiest of them all, the VAN Rebellion in Feb-April 1915, which caused their TERESET (temporary resettlement) in May 1915 and lasted until the spring of 1916.

Neither can you debate with these genocide lynch mobs, the Armenian terrorism which started in 1882 and continued until 1921. After a hiatus of about 50 years, it re-started in 1973 with the Santa Barbara killings of two Turkish diplomats by an older, hate-filled Armenian man.

You cannot show these lynch mobs the threads of continuity in their love affair with aggression, violence, and terrorism. They feel they are blameless. Victims are to blame for standing on the trajectory of the Armenian bullets! Such blinded are these genocide lynch mob by their hatred for all things Turkish. They need help, psychological kind, I mean.

Neither can you debate with these genocide lynch mobs, the Armenian treason that started in 1914 and climaxed in 1915. You cannot show these genocide lynch mobs documents from their own Armenian archives (like the 1919 Nubar letter and the 1923 Katcahznouni Manifesto, and many others like those) proving Armenian treason and how wrong it was then and it still is now…

Neither can you debate with these genocide lynch mobs, the Armenian territorial demands since 1877, going unabated to this very date. The irony is not lost: the Armenians were not even a majority in those areas and if the Armenians succeeded in realizing their delusion, the Greater Armenia, it would have been the first apartheid regime in the 20th Century where a tiny Armenian minority would be ruling over a massive non-Armenian majority. Is this a dream worth taking up arms against your own government, terrorizing your neighbors and joining the advancing enemy armies?

Was it worth it?

After all, didn’t all these heinous Armenian crimes force Turks to defend their home, like any citizen anywhere, including the U.S., would do?

Was not Tereset a direct outcome of Armenian rebellions, terrorism, and treason?

In short, you cannot discuss anything with these genocide lynch mobs.

Ergun KIRLIKOVALI

Son Of Turkish Survivors From Both Maternal And Paternal Sides

www.turkla.com

did you bother to read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A03E5DD1F39F931A35755C0A960958260&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/L/Lifton,%20Robert%20Jay
http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/OpenLetterTurkishPMreArmenia6-13-05.pdf

and many other documents?

what are you talking about - the Ataturk trials were nothing more than a show, none of the main executors of the Genocide were punished.

The massacres did occur, but the Armenians never point out that the Turkish government under Ataturk executed four generals responsible. That's a lot more than Japan has ever done, vis-a-vis its massacres of Chinese.

1M ARMENNIAN KILLD EVERY ONE WANT TO TALK OBOUT IT.WHAT ABOUT 2.5M IRAQI AND 1.5M AFGHAN WAS THIS NOT GENOSIDE.WHAY NO ONE WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT.OH THAY WERE MUSLIMS KILLING MUSLIMS IS NOT A CRIME.WHAT A SICK WORLD THIS IS

DECLARATION BY 69 PROMINENT AMERICAN ACADEMICIANS

Part 1 of 3

The following public declaration, signed by some 69 prominent American Academicians was published in the New York Times and Washington Post on May 19, 1985.

In a most civilized and democratic fashion, exercising their first amendment rights, fulfilling their professional responsibilities, and at peace with their conscience, these academicians spoke out on a matter on which they were experts and reached out to their lawmakers to enlighten and educate them.

What happened to these signatories next is a subject to be studied for years to come, by researchers and experts on Armenian terrorism. Members of the AFATH [1] community waged a relentless campaign of harassment to scare and silence the signatories.

The scare tactics used ranged from threatening phone calls, letters, and confrontations, to defamation, and/or discrimination in academic circles, including direct or indirect political pressure exerted by some AFATH-supported elected officials. It was truly a terrifying chapter right out of Nazi Germany or Soviet Union era.

Consequently, most of the signatories, mindful of the international Armenian terrorism, had no choice but to lower their public profiles, keep quiet, leave the profession, and/or retire, in order to protect themselves and their families. The writer dubbed this unfortunate episode of American history of the last two decades of the 20th century -still mostly unknown by the American public - “the AFATH Terror in Academia”.

It is clear that the freedom of speech, enshrined in the U.S. constitution, does not extend to those who dispute the AFATH positions, as the AFATH camp do not hesitate one moment to trample on anyone’s freedom of speech, if they feel that person subscribes to opposing views.

Undaunted, we must continue to battle prejudice and fanaticism amongst us, with facts and reason. I urge open-minded truth-seekers to use this document in their letters to the editors to refute the AAG [2].

Peace,

Ergun KIRLIKOVALI

Son Of Turkish Survivors From Both Maternal And Paternal Sides

www.Turkla.com

Legend:

[1] AFATH = Armenian Falsifiers and Turk Haters

[2] AAG = Alleged Armenian genocide

DECLARATION BY 69 PROMINENT AMERICAN ACADEMICIANS

Part 2 of 3

TO THE MEMBERS OF THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

May 19, 1985, New York Times & Washington Post

The undersigned American academicians who specialize in Turkish, Ottoman and Middle Eastern Studies are concerned that the current language embodied in House Joint Resolution 192 is misleading and/or inaccurate in several respects.

Specifically, while fully supporting the concept of a "National Day of Remembrance of Man's Inhumanity to Man," we respectfully take exception to that portion of the text which singles out for special recognition:

". . . the one and one half million people of Armenian ancestry who were victims of genocide perpetrated in Turkey between 1915 and 1923 . . .."

Our reservations focus on the use of the words "Turkey' and "genocide" and may be summarized as follows:

From the fourteenth century until 1922, the area currently known as Turkey, or more correctly, the Republic of Turkey, was part of the territory encompassing the multinational, multi-religious state known as the Ottoman Empire.

It is wrong to equate the Ottoman Empire with the Republic of Turkey in the same way that it is wrong to equate the Hapsburg Empire with the Republic of Austria. The Ottoman Empire, which was brought to an end in 1922, by the successful conclusion of the Turkish Revolution which established the present day Republic of Turkey in 1923, incorporated lands and people which today account for more than twenty-five distinct countries in Southeastern Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East, only one of which is the Republic of Turkey.

The Republic of Turkey bears no responsibility for any events which occurred in Ottoman times, yet by naming 'Turkey' in the Resolution, its authors have implicitly labeled it as guilty of "genocide" it charges transpired between 1915 and 1923;

DECLARATION BY 69 PROMINENT AMERICAN ACADEMICIANS

Part 3 of 3

As for the charge of "genocide," no signatory of this statement wishes to minimize the scope of Armenian suffering. We are likewise cognizant that it cannot be viewed as separate from the suffering experienced by the Muslim inhabitants of the region.

The weight of evidence so far uncovered points in the direct of serious inter communal warfare (perpetrated by Muslim and Christian irregular forces), complicated by disease, famine, suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World War.

Indeed, throughout the years in question, the region was the scene of more or less continuous warfare, not unlike the tragedy which has gone on in Lebanon for the past decade. The resulting death toll among both Muslim and Christian communities of the region was immense.

But much more remains to be discovered before historians will be able to sort out precisely responsibility between warring and innocent, and to identify the causes for the events which resulted in the death or removal of large numbers of the eastern Anatolian population, Christian and Muslim alike.

Statesmen and politicians make history, and scholars write it. For this process to work scholars must be given access to the written records of the statesmen and politicians of the past. To date, the relevant archives in the Soviet Union, Syria, Bulgaria and Turkey all remain, for the most part, closed to dispassionate historians. Until they become available, the history of the Ottoman Empire in the period encompassed by H.J. Res. 192 (1915-1923) cannot be adequately known.

We believe that the proper position for the United States Congress to take on this and related issues is to encourage full and open access to all historical archives and not to make charges on historical events before they are fully understood.

Such charges as those contained H.J. Res. 192 would inevitably reflect unjustly upon the people of Turkey and perhaps set back irreparably progress historians are just now beginning to achieve in understanding these tragic events.

As the above comments illustrate, the history of the Ottoman-Armenians is much debated among scholars, many of whom do not agree with the historical assumptions embodied in the wording of H.J. Res. 192. By passing the resolution Congress will be attempting to determine by legislation which side of the historical question is correct.

Such a resolution, based on historically questionable assumptions, can only damage the cause of honest historical inquiry, and damage the credibility of the American legislative process.

the fact that there are still ergun kirlikovalis among us - makes the matter extremely difficult... but I believe in the strength of Turkish nation, and I believe in its future in the family of civilized and developed nations. And what will come with it - inevitably - is finding the strength to confront the past, to apologize and if needed - pay retributions to Armenian brothers. The question of Armenian Genocide is first of all an internal question for Turks - are we honest and powerful nation or still a confused bunch of cowards?

Turks, read http://www.taraf.com.tr/haber/21653.htm

edbyronadams: nobody will put you to jail if you call what happened to Native Americans. And, yes, many do - see for ezample http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=native+americans+genocide&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

Did I answer your question?

Ergun Kirlikovali - it is interesting to note that some more scholarly Turks take a slightly different view to your own.

"My conscience does not accept the insensitivity showed to and the denial of the Great Catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915. I reject this injustice and for my share, I empathise with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers. I apologise to them."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/08/armenian-genocide-turkey-apology-petition

The fact that there were no trials or investigations does not alter the truth. You see there is a basic problem with all your arguments - where are the Ottoman Armenians?

I know that I can travel to Turkey and see ruined Armenian villages and abandoned churches but where are the people. Given that Armenians lived in Anatolia for at least 3000 years before the Turks arrived, I am curious as to where they went?

To Ergun Kirlikovali:

Obama, Biden and Pelosi do not need a fanatic nationalist Turk, like yourself, to tell them what the American interests are!

JEWISH HOLOCAUST IS A FACT, ARMENIAN GENOCIDE IS AN ALLEGATION

Jewish Holocaust is a fact based on the verdict of a “competent tribunal”, Nuremberg, where the due process” was allowed to run its natural course and the accused were given a fair chance to cross-examine the evidence and question the witnesses produced by the accusers.

Armenian genocide, on the other hand, is an allegation. A fair “due process” a la Nuremberg was never allowed in the Turkish-Armenian conflict; there is no court verdict saying it is genocide. All we have is Armenian claims based on hearsay and forgeries, backed by intimidation, harassment, and terrorism by Armenians.
Those who compare the factual Jewish Holocaust with the bogus Armenian genocide, might wish to answer this simple question:

Did the Jews establish Jewish armies behind German lines, attack German armies’ rear, join the invading enemy armies, and kill half a million of Germans, in order to establish a Jewish state on German soil?

Of course not.

But Armenians committed all of those heinous crimes and much worse in the Ottoman Empire, from 1890 to 1920, causing 524,000 Muslim dead, mostly Turkish, with Armenian rebellions, terrorism, treason, and territorial demands.

How can the court-proven fact of Jewish Holocaust be compared to the baseless allegations of Armenian genocide?

VERDICT WITHOUT DUE PROCESS AMOUNTS TO LYNCHING

Those who take the Armenian “allegations” of genocide at face value seem to ignore the following:

Genocide is a legal, technical term precisely defined by the U.N. 1948 convention (Like all proper laws, it is not retroactive.) [http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html ] Genocide verdict can only be given by a "competent court" after "due process" where both sides are properly represented and evidence mutually cross examined.

For a genocide verdict, the accusers must prove “intent” at a competent court and after due process. This could never be done by the Armenians whose evidence mostly fall into five major categories: hearsay, misrepresentations, exaggerations, forgeries, and “other”.

Such a "competent court" was never convened in the case of Turkish-Armenian conflict and a genocide verdict does not exist , save a Kangaroo court in occupied Istanbul in 1919 where partisanship, vendettas, and revenge motives left no room for due process. [The Armenian File, Kamuran Gurun (Rustem Bookshop, Mersin 10, Turkey, 1985]

It will be interesting to see if Obama, Biden, Pelosi will choose Armenian interests over American interests…

Peace,

Ergun Kirlikovali

Son of Turkish survivors from both paternal and maternal sides

www.turkla.com

Isn't it time for Turks to put aside the childish creation myth of modern Turkey. Because that is what it is - a fairy tale no different from King Arthur or John Wayne fighting the savage Indians.

You were not an innocent little nation set upon from outside and within by forces seeking to destroy you.

The Ottoman empire was vast, corrupt and brutal. Unsurprisingly, the conquered peoples did not particularly enjoy living under an increasingly oppressive rule. Empires inevitibly collapse under their own weight, such is the price of your conquest of the Middle East and Eastern Europe. Empire disintegration is usually messy and difficult for the former emperors. Not nearly as painful, however, as it was for your remaining subjects.

In a dying spasm of nationalist fury the Young Turks unleashed carnage on their subjects - Assyrians, Greeks, Kurds, Arabs and others were massacred in the 100,000's. The 'Armenian problem', was of course, given special attention.

Turkey seeks respect and acknowledgement as a modern nation. To gain this you must acknowledge your past. I am sure you will find it liberating - ask a German. However, to continue the denial to the extent that figures such as Pamuk have been prosecuted for 'insulting Turkishness', makes your nation appear, quite frankly, ridiculous.

Turkey is an outlaw country that bullies and threatens with war all its neighbors to this day. It is a shame for our country, the US, to side with the Turks and justify their crimes. A few weeks ago the Turks threatened to sink a Norwegian ship hired by Cyprus to search for oil and natural gas in its exclusive economic zone (in an area of the sea about 30 miles south of the coast of Cyprus towards Egypt) which is in accordance with international law. The Turks, who occupy illegally 40% of the territory of Cyprus, "argue" that the Republic of Cyprus has no rights because according to Turkey it does not exist and that Turkey is stronger! About the same time the Turks started looking for oil on Greece's continental shelf, claiming that islands are not allowed to have continental shelf, a position that contradicts the provisions of the international law of the sea (and common sense).
The Turks should not be accepted in the civilized world as long as they continue to disrespect international law and human rights and refuse to recognize the well documented genocides they committed in the past against the Christian populations that used to live in Asia Minor before the Turks conquered the area, such as the Armenians. It is in the interest of the US to side with justice, human rights and the law. It is the only way our country, the US, can re-establish its deserved stature as a leader of the free and democratic world. Obama has promised to do this during his presidential campaign. He better keep his promise!

Calling the Armenian killing what it is generates exactly what benefit for the United States? Meanwhile having Turkey as an example of a nation that has made great efforts for over 70 years to put Islam in its proper place in society is priceless to us. Obama is not such a fool to ignore reality.

Has the campaign against the native peoples of N America by the US from 1776 to 1900 been called a genocide yet?

MumboJumboo:

That's a very valid question - why do we care about what happened almost 100 years ago when similar acts are happening today?

A short answer is: exactly because genocides happen today, we need to address the "root of the genocide movement" - once forever.

Let me explain you. Imagine, there's a type of crime (government plans and conducts systematic killing of a whole minority based on race, religion or nationality) which gets unpunished (or get punished very selectively). What conclusions would current governments draw? Yes, exactly the same as Hitler did in 1939 - that it'd go (at least has great chances to) unpunished, too. Unpunished Genocides beget genocides.

To illustrate - search google news from 1915–16:
http://news.google.com/archivesearch?as_ldate=1915&as_hdate=1916&q=armenia+|+armenian&lnav=od&btnG=Search
do the headlines sound familiar?

The entire word "genocide" was coined based on Armenian massacres ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLT-BpV9c8g ) - and isn't it symbolic that till today that First Genocide has never been apologized - let alone compensated for.

Want more explanation? According to Genocide scholars killing the memory of the victims ("genocide? what genocide? these are allegations!") is the last logical phase of genocides. In that respect - the Armenian Genocide STILL CONTINUES - as we speak (as opposed to genocide of Jews, Native Americans, Aborigines and other victims of genocides).

All the "never again" talks are impotent if they fail to mention the first Great Example - the Armenian Genocide.

I hope you got my point.

"Free american media" is a myth. What about the ongoing genocide of iraqis, one million iraqis killed and 4 million refugees.
What about the ongoing genocide of palestinians by the only apartheid democracy in the world, how many palestinain town were wiped off the map, 6 million palestinian refugees created.
Why is armenian genocide an issue now ???

Don't worry, Turkey. Other American president-elects have promised to call a spade a spade, and then waffled after coming into office. Your crime will not be recognized in the U.S. any time soon.

Beginning in 1895, the Ottomans and the Turks launched a campaign of extermination against the Christian residents of the Ottoman Empire. The campaign reached its peak with the Armenians in 1895, and had a secondary peak with the Greeks in 1922. The trails were actually not completed until the masacrs of Greeks in 1955 and the expulsion of remaining Greeks in 1964. The result is that whereas 100 years ago there were about 5 million Armenians and Greeks in the Ottoman territories now in Turkey, today there are only a few thousand. (for reference check 'The Ottoman Centuries' by Kinross ... it describes some of the tactics used by the Turks against the Christians throughout that period).

The only ones who think that this was the result of ineptitude or self-defense are Turks and some elements of the US Dept. of State and the British foreign ministry.

The simplest thing that Turks can do is also the honest thing: admit the genocide that took place. Noone is asking for Turkey to pay anything. All anyone is asking is a recognition that it happened. After all, unles Turkey recognizes her actions, Turkey is liable to repeat them (say against the Kurds).

But, to reiterate, contrary to what some claim, the campaign against the Christians started in 1895 and lasted for a good 30 years, with two distinct peaks. The crudest way to put it is that the Ottomans left the way they entered Europe, in a sea of Christian blood; Turkey was born in a sea of Christian blood.

Mr. KIRLIKOVALI,

Your "contribution" to denial machine - the websites you sponsor, the politicians you are supporting, as well as the "arguments" you are using(some downright false, some semi-cooked, some smell of fascism) - are well-known. I am sure if there was a defender (and many still are) of the Holocaust - he/she would be able to bring even longer list of similar "arguments" supporting Hitler's "measures".

There could NOT be any justification to mass killing of an entire nation - women, children, elderly - and the sooner you understand that, the sooner you find the strength to apologize for it, the better for you - as one should be completely blind not to see how this issue is used - on a regular basis - as a "stick" towards Turks - whenever there's a need. Of course, I don't mention any moral aspect - that I gave up using as an argument long time ago...

Find the strength already, stop making clown of yourself. The whole World is laughing at you - some publicly, some privately. Aren't you tired of this 100-years old stigma you are passing to newer and newer generations? Why can't you learn from Germans, Australians, Americans?

V

PS. finally, some fresh air, and some hope: http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2008/12/7E1B7968-CD1A-48A9-A7BC-DD323AC9FF18.ASP

Everything on this planet is based around distortion of one kind or another. Armenians are perfect distorters or history just by looking into their comments. But distortion of any kind is not limited just to the people of Armenia - it is world wide.

The only facts that are available are the ones that are recorded by governments and courts of rule in every nation/state. However, no fact makes it true the fact that it is written.

No document of history can be taken as fact just because it is written. One mans fact is anothers lie.

Knowing how darkness in this world operates it is a fact that history as shown by all who assume the facts to be truth are either naive and gullible to the fact just like most humans are or they have an alterior motive.

No matter how much we argue for or against the fact, we cannot return history to its original location to alter time and thus return whatever justice is rquired.

History shows many discrepancies that are recorded by so called authorities of any kind. No matter how well we record, many if not most things are distorted out of proportion. Some things are added, some things are removed and some things are plainly recorded within amongst other lies.

In order to go close as possible to the actual factors that played in history one needs to gather all the recorded historical data of all things related and all things that have a consequential effect upon the actual factors that played out.

Relating to this issue of blame the nation as a whole of the so called genocides of WWI in the Ottoman empire one also needs to bring in all the powers be that had major influence that lead to the destruction of the ottoman Empire.

The countries or empires that had a big role during those times (WWI) included all the superpowers of today. Who were they and what "agenda" did they have to create such a travesty in history. One must also consider the role of inherent goodness and the evil side of mankind or "its controllers" at play. These factors "MUST" be taken into consideration to go deeper and deeper to solve the puzzle of factors that are upon us today.

No man is innocent or guilty until all factors that has gone before us has been considered and settled by both sides. And only then can we truely reach some understanding and reasons why all those things have occured the way it did occur.

I am a psychology Professor and have twenty year research experience interviewing over 300 Armenian survivors from the Ottoman Turkish Genocide and can share the research findings with those denialists who wish to be enlightened.
Denial is the last stage of Genocide and that is what Turkish officials are suffering from. This is a psychological problem with a cure and treatment. The sooner Turkish officials embrace this fact the sooner Turkey will be set free and become truly democratic State.
We have also been working with both Armenian and Turks together in dialogue groups in tri-state NYC area, and our findings reveal that the reasons why Turkish officials/and some people are in denial is: a. economical reasons (reparation issues) b. psychological issues (denial for over 92 years makes the Turkish citizens confused as to what is truth), and c. moral issues (Saving face, honor, etc). Our research in generational impact of Genocide on the Turkish citizens revealed the following multiple reactions: a. Tired of these denial, b. Too confused as to what is true, c. Humiliation and helplessness, d. Acceptance and remorse (very small percentage), E. Missing Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians who used to be living side by side by with the Turks in Turkey. Our generational research concerning Armenians revealed the following: a. Sadness and pain, b. Anger and helplessness, c. Anger re world silence, d. constant retraumatization, e. Seeking validation.
We recommend the following: a. Forming an international body comprised of psychologist, mediators, and spiritual teachers to assist Turkish officials to find a healthy way of transforming their denial into enlightenment, (as they did with Germany after the Holocaust); b. Sharing official transcripts of genocide orders with the Turkish public (to educate the public in Turkey by revising Turkish history books); and c. Biopsychosocial and Spiritual dialogue groups to assist Turkish communities to embrace their dark history and learn a positive lesson of enlightenment, democracy, and loving their neighbors; d. Helping Turkey to ask for forgiveness and forgive themselves.
I wish enlightenment for Armenian and Turkish officials, and ALL STATES

In a way, America has tilted to Turkish ways of doing things: America now resembles the Ottoman Era indebtedness beyond its means, which has remained a Turkish tradition for the last 85-86 years! And that Turkey continues to go back to borrow more money than the last time from the IMF.

And if that does not convince you, try this: American stock exchanges are now more volatile than the Istanbul Stock Exchange!!

LOL....LOL.....

BIAS IN THE TERM “ARMENIAN GENCOIDE”

Turkey and her allies will be terribly insulted by the U.S. political gesture of recognizing as genocide a civil war within a world.

If Obama goes ahead with Armenians’ unproven claims, then Obama and the U.S. will lose Turkey. Would it be in U.S. interests to endow a newly sworn in president with a deliberately incomplete world map on day one?

If Obama cherishes values like fairness, objectivity, truth, and honesty, then he should really use the term “Turkish-Armenian conflict”. Asking one “Do you accept or deny Armenian Genocide” shows anti-Turkish bias. The question should be re-phrased “What is your stand on the Turkish-Armenian conflict?”

Turks believe it was a civil war within a world war, engineered, provoked, and waged by the Armenians with active support from Russia, England, and France, all eyeing the vast territories of the collapsing Ottoman Empire. Armenian claim it is genocide.

GENOCIDE ALLEGATIONS IGNORE “THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”

Allegations of Armenian genocide are racist and dishonest history. They are racist because they ignore the Turkish dead: about 3 million during WWI; around half a million of them at the hands of Armenian nationalists. And the allegations of Armenian genocide are dishonest because they simply dismiss:

“THE SIX T’S OF THE TURKISH-ARMENIAN CONFLICT”

1) TUMULT (as in numerous Armenian armed uprisings between 1890 and 1920)

2) TERRORISM (by Armenian nationalists and militias victimizing Ottoman-Muslims between 1882-1920)

3) TREASON (Armenians joining the invading enemy armies as early as 1914 and lasting until 1921)

4) TERRITORIAL DEMANDS (where Armenians were a minority, not a majority, attempting to establish Greater Armenia, the would-be first apartheid of the 20th Century with a Christian minority ruling over a Muslim majority )

5) TURKISH SUFFERING AND LOSSES (i.e. those caused by the Armenian nationalists: 524,000 Muslims, mostly Turks, met their tragic end at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries during WWI, per Turkish Historical Society. This figure is not to be confused with 2.5 million Muslim dead who lost their lives due to non-Armenian causes during WWI. Grand total: more than 3 million, according to Justin McCarthy)

6) TERESET (temporary resettlement) triggered by the first five T’s above and amply documented as such; not to be equated to the Armenian misrepresentations as genocide.)

Armenians, thus, effectively put an end to their millennium of relatively peaceful and harmonious co-habitation in Anatolia with Muslims by killing their Muslim/Turkish neighbors and openly joining the invading enemy. Turks were only defending their home like any citizen anywhere would do.

ERGUN KIRLIKOVALI
Son of Turkish Survivors from Both Maternal & Paternal Side
www.turkla.com

Mr. Yurdakul needs to learn some basic rules of journalism, such as don't just regurgitate the political positions of the person you are interviewing (or your own political biases) without checking the facts. That is probably why so many inaccuracies have crept into his article.

Let me just give two quick examples. Mr Yurdakul writes "the country strongly rejects the Armenian view, which claims that over a million Armenians were systematically massacred." As other posters have noted, there is not a Turkish view and an Armenian view, there is a Turkish view and the view of everyone else in the world with the exception of certain corners of the US State Department. The International Association of Genocide Scholars, the overwhelming majority of historians of the period, the governments of Canada, France, Italy, Russia, the European Parliament, Argentina, Belgium, Greece, Uruguay, etc, and the UN all agree that Ottoman Turkey committed Genocide. To present the Armenian Genocide as an "Armenian view" is blatantly biased.

Mr. Yurdakul then writes that the two neighbors "shut down their borders as well as channels of communication 15 years ago due to the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict." Sorry, wrong again. Turkey shut down the border and communication. For nearly twenty years, Armenia has publicly made it clear that it is for normalized relations and an open border with Turkey without preconditions. To present the closed border as mutual is again taking the self-serving statements of a politician and presenting them as fact.

When it comes to "1915 incidents" the issue is not _what_ happened – the historical record is clear there was genocide. The issue is whether that genocide can be justified today.

Some Turkish leaders, like the current Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul, justify what happened and do not hide behind tortured calls for further “inquiries” and respect for Turkish “sensitivities.”

As Gonul asked rhetorically recently: what’s more important Armenian lives or Turkish territorial control? Had we not eliminated Armenian presence would we have the Turkey we have today?

Turks are not facing this dilemma alone. Genocides have been committed throughout human history. Hitler, the 20th century’s most famous example, similarly argued that to ensure sufficient "living space" Germans needed to kill certain people and subjugate others. Same thinking pervades in still too many parts of the world today.

The problem for Turkish leaders like Gonul is that a considerable cross-section of humanity today disagrees with their logic and finds it abhorrent.

Others in the Turkish government recognize this and for decades they have engaged in a kind of hide-and-seek, arguing at different times that either nothing at all happened, or that the victims themselves were at fault or, most recently, that what happened is not quite clear to them.

Along with numerous other foreign policy failures, both the Clinton and Bush Administration found it easier to kowtow to this Turkish official line than to stick to American principled record on this issue.

This helped neither Turks nor Armenians.

Imagine the comfort level of living next to a much larger country – as Armenia is next to Turkey, whose leaders justify your attempted extermination, continue to discriminate against you and threaten you with more violence?

Imagine if you dissent from your government’s official line – as many Turks increasingly do in spite of violence, threats and persecutions – but you see the most powerful country in the world buckle under your government’s pressure?

Barack Obama has an opportunity to transcend this embarrassing deadlock, take a clear stand based on facts and help clear the air for Armenian-Turkish normalization.

Emil Sanamyan
Washington, DC

speaking of "hysterical fiction":

"When it comes to the historical reality of the Armenian genocide, there is no 'Armenian' or 'Turkish' side of the question, any more than there is a 'Jewish' or 'German' side of the historical reality of the Holocaust," writes Torben Jorgensen, of the Danish Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies. "There is a scientific side and an unscientific side — acknowledgment or denial."

(final quote from http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=935)

there's an excellent impartial and professional report recently published here:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=935

Highly recommended if you are interested in understanding "who is who" in this "debate".

In the comments below by JaredJohn, the "above emotional tirade" refers to the comments by BONJUBS (below my original comments).

The above emotional tirade is a reminder of the hysterical fiction and hatred perpetuated by Armenians - who, according to their own spokesman - stick to this story line as part of an ethnic identity. If the ARmenians are so sure of their case, why won't they open their archives or allow historians to look at the issue. That would be the way most Americans would prefer to resolve such disputes - not with slogans of death.