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Guest Voice

Bhutto's Pakistan, A Year On

By Shuja Nawaz

Earlier this month, as I drove past the spot where Benazir Bhutto was assassinated on Murree Road near Liaquat Garden in Rawalpindi on December 27, 2007, I thought of how much had happened since that tragic evening. She had returned, against the advice of many friends, to a violent and fractious Pakistan because she felt that her presence was key to the restoration of democracy in her homeland. I knew that road well. Decades earlier I used to turn there on to College Road, on my way to the neighboring Gordon College. Many of Gordon College student demonstrations for democracy in 1968 crashed into the police barricades at that spot.

Those were Halcyon Days compared to what Pakistan is now going through. A year after her much-foretold death, Ms. Bhutto's Pakistan is wracked by political turmoil and economic uncertainty. It is relying on the world to bail it out again. Yet the answers to its problems lie inside Pakistan. Unless Pakistan settles the wars within and coalesces around its political center, it faces a bleak future and risk of foreign intervention. This is the challenge facing its fledgling civilian government. The world must help it succeed.

Today, Pakistan is run by civilians. But the parliamentary system that had been hijacked by the military ruler, General Pervez Musharraf, and converted into a presidential one remains unchanged. Power continues to flow not from the Prime Minister but from the President. Ms Bhutto's signed compact (Charter of Democracy) with the other leading party of former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif that called, among other things, for the complete restoration of the judiciary has been shredded. The coalition of her center-left Pakistan Peoples' Party with Sharif's center-right Pakistan Muslim League (N) is no more, partly as a result of the time bombs that General Musharraf planted when he brought the PPP into power under political deals that wiped clean all charges against its leadership and by removing the top layer of the judiciary in November 2007 for the second time in one year. The PPP fears that a restored judiciary under the former Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhary would overturn many of those deals creating chaos. Mr. Sharif refuses to compromise on this issue. The PML (N) controls the Punjab, Pakistan's economically powerful province. The PPP has the center. This standoff threatens the political stability of the country.

President Asif Ali Zardari, who inherited the political mantle of his wife, Ms. Bhutto, has continued the Musharrafian alliance with the United States against the terrorists and militants that threaten Pakistan's Federally Administered Tribal Areas bordering Afghanistan and increasingly are operating in the hinterland. He also continued the Musharraf policy of making peace overtures to neighboring India and offered even to forego a first nuclear strike in case of a conflict between the two rivals. But, despite his attempt at producing a consensus among the political parties in parliament against terrorism, most parties on the right wing of the political spectrum have started backing away from that stance. And the recent Mumbai terror attacks that are being linked to Pakistani militant groups have brought India and Pakistan to the edge of another conflict.

The economy is still in tatters. Distracted by political wrangling soon after the February 2008 elections, the new government failed to concentrate on the rapidly deteriorating economic situation until late in the year. The spike in global fuel and food prices added to its woes. Foreign exchange reserves have plummeted from a height of $16 billion to close to $3 billion. Food prices are up nearly 50 percent. Energy and water shortages persist. A program with the International Monetary Fund, once pronounced anathema by Mr. Zardari, is now in force. And Pakistan is holding its collective breath for the countries that it calls "Friends of Pakistan" to actually come forward with vast amounts of financial aid. Absent a robust and growth-oriented economic program and an improved security situation, such aid may not be forthcoming. These countries will likely wait for the IMF program to take root. Donors are also wary of dealing with a sprawling government of some 60 cabinet members, most of whom are eminently unqualified for their respective tasks, and represent parochial interests rather than a cohesive central policy.

On the security front, 2008 may prove to be as violent as 2007, when nearly 60 suicide bombings took place inside Pakistan, most against the armed forces. Adding to the volatile mix is the re-emergence in force of the Punjabi Sunni militant groups such as the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and the Lashkar-e-Tyaba that even threaten the state that once sponsored their help for the Kashmiri Mujahideen. The army, overstretched in the region bordering Afghanistan, cannot be deployed in a major operation inside Punjab. Without army action, these groups will continue to flourish. There is no police force worth the name that could be used in controlling these elements and de-weaponizing Pakistani society. More important, there is no public debate on what sort of society Pakistanis want to create over 61 years after becoming an independent state. Nor is there any sign of such a debate taking place in the near future.

Now, with India increasing the pressure on Pakistan to act against the militants that India alleges were behind the Mumbai attacks, and garnering international support for that cause, Pakistan faces the possibility of military action on its eastern frontier. If that happens, the Pakistan army will be thrust once more into the political vortex. Then, if the political center does not hold, history may well repeat itself and the army may be "asked" by the people to take charge once again. If that happens, Ms. Bhutto will have died in vain.


Shuja Nawaz is the author of Crossed Swords: Pakistan, its Army, and the Wars Within (Oxford University Press 2008) and the forthcoming FATA: A Most Dangerous Place (CSIS, January 2009). He can be reached at www.shujanawaz.com

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Comments (189)

Krishstudent Author Profile Page:

Hey Pakistanis. You can learn something from your eastern neighbor, not India (because India is always bad for you and you can't learn from it.), I mean Bangladesh. They just elected majority government to rule country like this reporter wishes her country would follow. There are so many ways one can tell, like you live by sword and die by sword, chicken come back to roost and so on. It is individual Pakistani who needs to wise up & rise up against these powers. You can do it, just vote for change. Yes you can!! It seems familiar recently.

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

Tiglathpeliser:

"A little bit of knowledge..." was not an ad hominen attack. Many people use scientific data without understanding the limitations of the conclusions that can be drawn. Specifically, in this case the drift of genetic markers probably happened tens of thousands of years before and invasion/migration of the protoindoeuropean peoples or language. The theory proposes migration less than 10,000 years ago, but the genetic markers on the Y chromosome are about 30+ thousand years ago. That is why the genetic data is not good confirmatory evidence of the invasion theory.

Also, William Jones theories were "informal" because there was no "formal" scientific method at that time. And actually, there is no method in linguistics even today. It is still based on observations and conclusions performed by individuals. It was "passing" because as you say his "formal duties" were as a Judge.

The translation of the "Laws" of Manu has been criticized by many reasonable people. This is a long and controversial discussion so I don't want to start it on a blog. But think about one simple
fact. Jones chose to translate the word "Smrti" to "laws". Many feel this was consciously done to use the negative aspects of Manusmrti as laws to divide and control Hindus. Of course these kind of things are difficult to prove, but try to think about it objectively in the context of innumerable other derogatory actions by the British during the colonial period and whether a colonizer would have an agenda.

Also, the fact that the observations were made 200 years ago does not validate them. For example, the Koran, the bible etc...made observations hundreds of years ago, but many feel they are still valid. The question is do you have a scientific or formal method of questioning or validating a theory. The difference between science and fields like linguistics is not just a matter of degrees. These fields have not developed any system similar to the scientific method. So if for political reasons one wants to keep believing something for a 1000 more years you will be able to find "evidence". For example, using Y DNA haplotype evidence from 30+ thousand years ago for a linguistics based hypothesis for an invasion/migration 7000+/- years ago is not necessarily clear thinking.

faithfulservant3 Author Profile Page:

Nawaz's post descends into minutiae that is a waste of time and won't solve the problem. The only policy options on the table seem to be: 1) continuing the diplomatic tit for tat dance; or 2) adopting the American "kill the b*st*rds" counterterrorism policy that has had few results.

The current scenario resembles the Arab-Israeli conflict with its meaningless rounds and rounds of consultations and negotiations designed to make it look like both sides are interested in peace, when they are both not willing to make the sacrifices.

The main problem is Kashmir and the Islamic militants in the tribal areas. Setting aside the Kashmir problem for another day, I look to Charles Allen's book "God's Terrorists: the Wahhabi Cult and the Hidden Roots of Modern Jihad" for instruction.

The Jihadis are not there because the were driven there after Tora Bora and the Pakistanis refuse to address the issue. They are there because this has always been an area beyond the writ of the government. The British couldn't control it and neither can any modern state--this is not where their heads are at. As Mr. Allen's impeccable research explains, one of the first Punjab Muslim extremists studied in what is now Saudi at the same time as Wahhab and brought back the same philosophy to the subcontinent. Every effort to kill this ideaology off has been unsuccessful. By dint of culture and faith the LEAST EFFECTIVE means of influencing this people is by using violence--especially when the perpetrators are foreigners. YOU CAN'T KILL THEM ALL AND FOR EACH ONE YOU KILL YOU CREATE A VEANGEFUL RELATIVE.

Instead of offering democracy or the bomb, the US and its allies should cordon off Southeastern Afghanistan and the tribal areas--neither allowing weapons in or terrorists and heroin out. If these people want to be taliban let them be taliban, as long as they don't hurt the rest of the world.

Encourage those who want to live a modern life to leave--give them education and other aid. Indeed flood the surrounding areas with developmental aid (which is cheaper than a military solution) and watch the Pashtuns and their friends who are taliban stew in their own cultural ways or turn green with envy. Even provide them with aid, washed through Muslim charities, only to reveal to them later that it has been takfirs and Christians who have been helping them.

You cannot drag them kicking and screaming into some Jeffersonian democracy or Magna Carta like arrangement, one can only gently entice them with compassion and love. Concentrate on developing first those regions in Afghanistan and Pakistan that are open to it and hold THAT area--forget about the rest for now.

How would Buddha or Jesus Christ go about solving this? This is the only way.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Clearthinking:

I guess, and I am not advising you, but just stating my opinion, that you are getting dragged into the morass of useless arguments and counter-arguments by the pan-Islamists such as "Bostonbrahmin" and "T

The position is that would in 2009, India be poised (if India can muster the guts like Israel) to bomb the hell of out the "land of pure" (Pakistan) if another Paksitan-sponsored Muslim terrorist attack happens ? Should India wage an all out bloody war, cross the borders and move into Pakistan, and bomb the hell out of the militant hideouts ? Yes, Pakistan would argue and provide superficial statements about closing Jamat-ud-Dawa, Lashkar-e-Tayyiba and Jaish-e-Muhammad offices/operations. In reality these "banned" groups just resurface under a new name.

The question is: why Pakistan does this ? It is simply because Pakistan was founded on a hate-India/hate-Hinduy ideology. Examining facts, for the past 60 years, Pakistan has never been able to justify its existence as a soverign state other than earning the coveted position of a "sanctuary of Muslim terrorists" and "radical Islam". Its Kashmir policy, is full of deceit and absurd claims that are founded in the "Nizam-i-Mustafa". The West (mainly USA) has been buying this garbage for long. Even as late as 11/26, USA was somewhat apprehensive about the involvement of the Lashkar-et-Tayyiba's involvement in the attacks. But now the USA appears to pressurize Pakistan on extraditing Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi to India. The full report is available at the NYT link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/world/asia/01pstan.html?_r=1&hp

The "human rights" peaceniks argue that every terrorist is innocent unless proven guilty. So, when laws are changed (like now in India) to combat terrorism a little more effectively, notables like Arundhati Roy and her ilk raise a hue and cry on behalf of the terrorists. This means that unless a cataclysmic bloody incident like 11/26 occurs, there is no point and prtobably it is immoral to go after terrorists. So, India's posture according to these airheaded peaceniks should be to take a defensive posture. She has done in the recent 11/26 attack, only to be bitterly criticized by Salman Rushdie. Rushdie made the blunt statement that Roy was actually supporting Pakistan-sponsored terrorism.

Given this scenario, and if you believe that scumbag elements like Ms. Roy are to be ignored, why should not India go after the Muslim hideouts inside Pakistan, like Israel ??

bostonbrahmin Author Profile Page:

To Clearthinking....

The fact that not everybody in the Islamic world has moved beyond literal interpretation of the texts has little to do with "terrorism" as in the context of India-Pak relations.

Nobody cares what small minds in small mosques with small voices think, as much as nobody cares the opinion of small minds like Mr Chatterjee on this forum.

In the Indo-Pak context, the low intensity asymmetric war that is going is has roots elsewhere:

1. The formation of Pakistan itself, which was supposed to be a homeland for muslims where they can thrive without being dominated by a Hindu majority. That this "thriving" has not come about is undisputed and unfortunate. The "terrorism" is basically a way for the people in power in Pakistan to keep the attention focussed elsewhere. The method of incitement of violence may be based on religion, but the minds behind the operation are not, but based on the decidedly universal goal of retaining power.

2. The carnage during the partition, which has led a whole generation of virulent anti-muslim feeling in India, and I suppose vice-versa. This generation needs to die out before people can move on.

3. The rise of open anti-muslim forces in India, starting with Advani on the Rath, inciting hate and breaking mosques. The Gujarat carnage and the fact that Modi is still alive and out of prison is a blot on the country. No matter HOW you interpret the texts, such acts are going to cause anger in the hearts of everyone, and are designed to do so.

4. The Kashmir problem. There is no getting away from the fact that there has been gross violation of Human rights in the region by security forces. Every time such an incident occurs, there are a hundred new Jehadis born. This again has nothing to do wth HOW the texts are interpreted, it is a universal reaction to injustices by people in power.

5. The role of the US in setting up, funding and arming and then abandoning a whole generation of young people. At the end of the cold war, these people were left out in the cold. It is funny to see that some people comment on the "generosity" of the US funding, and how it has been "misused". It was among the worst crimes ever conducted by the United States, and the whole world is paying for that now.

6. The increase in Saudi Arabia funded Madressas that teach Wahabism, and the absence of good schools for the poor in Pakistan. It is not the religious indocrination itself that is a problem, but the fact that these students have no marketable skills. It is the poverty that forces them to take up the only profession left for them, that is to join the Jehadi groups and fight and die.

The most important thing now is to promote and fund through international voluntary organizations, cheap schools that provide a good basic educaton, as well as technical skills that are useful for todays world.

tiglathpileser Author Profile Page:

Clearthinking

"A little knowledge can be dangerous"- why the ad hominen attack? Why cant you let the merits of your argument make the case? Possibly because there are no merits? Independent of my disagreement with Deb Chatterji, at least he has the guts to use his name and not his behind a nom du plume and act braver than he would in the real world.

"Y DNA haplogroup R correspond to a drift of genetic markers 30,000 to 35,000 years ago. These markers CANNOT be used for determining the validity of the aryan invasion/migration theory" - Why? Please be specific. I would add this is ONE of the factors, not the sole reason. Anyways, pls be specific why they "CANNOT" be used. Genetic marker mutation is one of the techniques being used to explain migration, including by people at the National Geographic. I suspect you think they are idiots too?

To say William Jones had a "passing and informal " interest in languages is like saying Einstein had a passing interest in mathematics. Jones taught himself sanskrit so that he could understand Hindu law better to specifically help in his formal duties as a Judge in Bengal, and to reconcile english law with hindu law when dealing with Hindu supplicants. He knew French, Italian, Spanish, Portugeuse, Greek, Latin and of course english. Prior to learning Sanskrit, he taught himself arabic and persian. He was formally asked to translate Persian works into English. He translated the Laws of Manu and Shakuntala into english. This is "passing and informal"?
Anyways his key point was that Sanskrit and european languages had a common root- and since that time that that has developed into a major scholarly field with adherents at many universities for the last 200 years- all idiots I suppose? I agree this may not have the black and white nature of hard science, but 200 years of publication, research and peer reviews tend to convince me. The fact that since 1786 there have been no changes in the theory suggest to me it has legs.

It would be good to know the "alternative" theories you espouse and the academic support for them. On this point also, Jones was not trying to prove aryan invasion/migration, that was a secondary conclusion indirectly derived from his primary research. His early death at 48 was a huge loss.

You keep talking about archaelogy - pls remember for nomadic peoples there isnt any archaelogy. And yes, both archaelogy and linguisitics keep getting (re) interpreted, but the interpretations are usually second order items and rarely upend a basic line of argumentation.

Anyways, love to hear about you "various theories". And, pls dont forget to explain specifically why gene mutation cannot be used as one of the markers for migration.

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

Bostonbrahmin:

You say that "People have moved away from literal interpretation of any of the texts". I wish that was true. Most muslims have moved on, but too many - way too many - are still able to reconcile brutal violence with their religion and Koran. Until this is addressed and reformed within Islam by Muslims, I am afraid all your good intentions will not mean much and innocent people will continue to suffer. Not addressing this issue is not the answer and will not diminish the suffering that comes from terrorism.

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

tiglathpileser:

Y DNA haplogroup R correspond to a drift of genetic markers 30,000 to 35,000 years ago. These markers CANNOT be used for determining the validity of the aryan invasion/migration theory. I have studied molecular biology in detail in college, and a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous.

The aryan invasion theory is based on linguistic analysis performed in 1786 by Sir William Jones PRIOR to the development of the field of historical linguistics . He had a passing and informal interest in languages. It is quite reasonable to believe that he and the British had an alternative agenda. Linguistics is not a science, and it is very susceptible to interpretation and bias.

Believe it or not, since 1786 there has been no change in the ASSUMPTION of a protoindoeuropean language, instead of other very plausible theories. The evidence of an ACTUAL protoindoeuropean language or people does not exist. If you have studied archeology or linguistics you will know the extraordinary amount of interpretation used in these fields compared with hard science.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Bostonbrahmin wrote:

"Islam does not allow direct discussion of its basic aspects. Hinduism does allow it ..."

This simply shows the fanatical side of Divinity in Islamic theology.

"On the other hand, Islam does not have any issue with sitting down and having a meal or interacting socially with anybody. Hinduism does not allow that, ...."

That's very debatable. I have seen Muslims in India maintaining their caste differences. That is, the caste they belonged to before conversion was observed even in muted form. Kashmiri Hindu Pandits, who had converted to Islam say a century ago, did not sit down at the same table with a Muslim whose ancestors were a butchers/cobblers by trade before their conversion. In theory, Islam promotes equality. In reality it does not. The fault-finder can thus argue Islam has failed to produce anything unique.

"People ar free to choose any part of any book for their spiritual needs, and there is no reason what so ever to challenge their beliefs."

Those are phoney views. Islam does not allow freedom in the way you have characterized in the above lines. The punishment for challenging Islam is death because of heresy and/or apostacy. It is your view, and that does not necessarily reflect the Muslim worldview. (If it did, Salman Rushdie or Ayan Hirsi Ali would not have been given death threats from within their own community, and still be hated by majority Muslims.)

"People like yourself indulge in this game just in order to provoke others and to promote unnecessary conflict."

Provocation is a fundamental right. All great progress has happened because of some form of provocation. Newton, going by the legend, was provoked to think about the apple's fall. (Even your biological birth was due to some form of provocation, was it not ?) So, throwing in words such as "unnecessary" etc., is simply a failed attempt at self-gratification in demonstrating how intellectually superior you are, when in reality your views are as good as any pedestrian verbiage.

"Please...from your infantile posts earlier..you do not deserve a place at the table where the grown ups are talking."

Thank you. I think you are comfortable sitting at the table where only grown up fanatics and Islamists would welcome you. (You can do yourself a favor: give up your pretentious facade of intellecual superiority which you are not.) Don't lose sleep over failing to influence me by your hypocritical erudition.

Happy New Year !

bostonbrahmin Author Profile Page:

DEBCHATTERJEE.....

"When you want to talk down Islam by picking up passages from the ancient text, you open yourself to people who will pick up texts from Manu Samhita and shove it in your face."

That's perfectly Ok with me. As a Hindu, I do not take offense if someone "shoves Manusmriti" in my face. What I take offense is that if I criticize, meaning challenging Islam's foundations and that the belief that the message is from Divine sources

*************************************************

Here you have touched upon a point that has been the "chicken and egg" issue for a very long time, and people have employed this point to shout past each other.

Islam does not allow direct discussion of its basic aspects. Hinduism does allow it (even though people in the Hinduism business do not, as can be proven very well if you walk to the nearest temple and try to "discuss" with the priest or his cohorts, but that is a differnt point)

On the other hand, Islam does not have any issue with sitting down and having a meal or interacting socially with anybody. Hinduism does not allow that, where a very large portion of even lower caste Hindus (not to talk about Muslims) are not allowed in the vicinity of the upper castes. Each religion has its own quirks.

You would say that the caste system and the untouchablity is something that is not present today. That is definitely not correct, as can be felt by anybody who has moved outside the urban circles.

But the point is, it is counterproductive and infantile to shove the Koran or the Manu Samhita (or Levictus) in the face of any person. People have moved away from literal interpretation of any of the texts, and their belief is a strong function of their social, economic and educatonal status as well as geographical location. People ar free to choose any part of any book for their spiritual needs, and there is no reason what so ever to challenge their beliefs.

People like yourself indulge in this game just in order to provoke others and to promote unnecessary conflict. It is the same when the atheists provoke all people of belief by posting insulting remarks about "imaginary friends".

Please...from your infantile posts earlier..you do not deserve a place at the table where the grown ups are talking.

tiglathpileser Author Profile Page:

There is no extradition treaty between Pakistan and India and so no legal means to transfer these guys. One could always try extraordinary rendition, but even that is frowned upon in the US these days.
Better to hand them over to an international tribunal consisting of Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, and say Egypt. All have the death penalty and all have applied it to domestic (islamic) terrorists. None of those governments are happy about terrorists as their own stability is threatened by them. And, they usually dispense justice swiftly.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Mr. Kiani (Pakistan's Press Attache):

Can you please update us on the following: when will Pakistan extradite Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi to India ? The Times of India newsitem

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Lashkar_leader_admits_role_in_Mumbai_attack/articleshow/3918214.cms

states that LeT operative Shah admitted all guilt of funding terrorism in Mumbai. So, is Pakistan planning on closing down the camps or is Pakistah planning on a revolving door thru which culprits enter and get out on a timely rotational basis.


Further, when will Pakistan extradite Maulana Masood Azhar (JeM), Hafiz Mohammed Saeed and Dawood Ibrahim to India ?

This act of extraditing is towards confidence building measures between India and Pakistan. For 60 long years diplomacy has been found not to work. Terrorism, funded by Pakistan, in India has unleashed bloodshed and sectarian violence. The mistrust has continued. So, how long shall Pakistan take to extradite these terrorists to India ? Or shall Pakistan play the traditional cat and mouse game as before ?

IF everything else fails, with thye statue of limitations, is Pakistan willingb to fight India in a straight war till it is wiped off or wipes India off the map ?

tiglathpileser Author Profile Page:

Dear Mr Kiani,

Thank you for your out-reach in posting on this forum.

The fundamental issue in Pakistan is that the army owns the state, not the other way around. By invoking India as the arch enemy and as the sole protector against dismemberment of Pakistan, the army has built up unique positions of privilege and power. It owns several businesses; generals get a plot of land on promotion...and so on and on.

Just as its unlikely to find turkeys planning thanksgiving, it is too much to expect the army to wean itself off this position of privilege. So the army, and that includes the ISI, is motivated to keep positioning India as the bogeyman in order to justify its disproportionate share of Pakistans resources.

Here is a way to show Pakistan has really turned over a new leaf: Zardari should fire Kayani, not because of anything he has done, but just to show he can do it and demonstrate civilian superiority. As I recall, Indira Gandhi fired Manekshaw ( actually kicked him upstairs as Field Marshal), a war hero to boot, and there was not a peep because in India the state owns the army. In this country Truman fired MacArthur to make the same point. Kayani can be a great patriot and go home like Cinncinatus.

Until the army gives up its deadly embrace of Pakistans future, its hard to be optimistic and to be sanguine about Pakistans brand image and reputation.

I like your new Ambassador Haqqani- he is a good chap and I wish him all the best. As I recall he wrote passionately a couple of years ago about the fact that the Laskar E Taiba were scumbag terrorists.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Bostonbrahmin wrote:

"When you want to talk down Islam by picking up passages from the ancient text, you open yourself to people who will pick up texts from Manu Samhita and shove it in your face."

That's perfectly Ok with me. As a Hindu, I do not take offense if someone "shoves Manusmriti" in my face. What I take offense is that if I criticize, meaning challenging Islam's foundations and that the belief that the message is from Divine sources, I am opening myself upto to mortal harm. [This is notion is in accordance with Quran(005:033)]. The explanation (tafseer) I have received from knowledgeable sources on this criticizing/violating Quranic authority is as follows.

For example, Quran prohibits drinking. Thus if a Muslim drinks alcohol, he is committing crime according to the strictures of the Quran. If that person admits that he is wrong and is intentionally or unintentionally drinking and hence maybe violating the tenets of Islam, he is "forgiven" and is still a Muslim even committing a prohibited act. In this case that person is still not challenging the authority of the Quran on drinking. He still accepts the superiority of the Quranic teachings in his personal life.

Now in a second case, a Muslim may not drink at all. He maybe otherwise very good, but, for some reason he may challenge the authority of the Quran on its directive on drinking. He may say that Allah's message is incorrect and that drinking is otherwise good though Allah may have forbidden it. This second case is specifically termed as blasphemy.

In these two cases Quran(005:033) will strictly apply in the second case with whatever specific punishements prescribed therein.

In the first case the local mullah can rid the guy of any guilt if he pays some money to the mosque for furthering Islam's cause.

The problem is this superiority of an antiquated, primitive doctrinal verbiage ruling all humans (Muslims) lives. This shows that Islam has a very fragile sense of identity, and cannot take up the challenges of the 21st century.

In contrast Hindus do not have such doctrinal obligations. You may challenge openly all the foundations of the spiritual aspects of the Hindu belief system, and yet get away unharmed.

So, if someone "shoves Manusmriti" in my face, all else being equal, I should have the rights to ram Sharia down his throat.

bostonbrahmin Author Profile Page:

Mr Kiani

Most people will wish Mr Zardari all the best on his efforts to move the country forward. We would even overlook the contradiction of leaving a political party seemingly with democratic credentials, as part of a last will and testament.

What we have doubts is the ability of Mr Zardari in implementing anything againts the wishes of the millitary establishment. Furthermore, we are apprehensive that in order to shore up his popularity, he will start badmouthing India, as Ms Bhutto was prone to do.

bostonbrahmin Author Profile Page:

Dear Clearthinking person...

No sane person wants to pick up a book written thousands of years ago, and follow it word to word. I hope you dont whip your wife with a thick rope as mandated by the Manu Samhita.

In the subcontinent, as you well know, nobody reads either the sanskrit sashtras...or the arabic koran, or even the KJV and try to figure out how to live their lives. What people follow as religion, is an amalgamation of beliefs picked up from the rest of the community, from religious leaders, as well as from movie stars.

In that sense, the version of Islam followed by the general public is far from the Wahabist traditions. It is the same as the general religion followed by majority of Hindus are far from the Manu Samhita version.

It is similar to the state of the religion in US, I haven't seen too many injuctions against eating shellfish or doing laundry on Sundays.

When you want to talk down Islam by picking up passages from the ancient text, you open yourself to people who will pick up texts from Manu Samhita and shove it in your face.

Please, be reasonable, try to temper your virulant anti-muslim sentiments. The vast majority of people have moved on, and its time for you to do the same.

nhkiani Author Profile Page:

We were disappointed by Mr. Shuja Nawaz’s misleading piece on Pakistan's political situation ("Bhutto's Pakistan: A Year on"). Pakistan is only now addressing long neglected social and economic consequences of a decade of policies based on the priorities of dictatorship. The economic and social crisis created by the previous regime have stymied Pakistan’s efforts to build a robust modern economy and an internal social revolution. These crisis have only been compounded by the international economic crisis that has rocked the financial markets on all continents. Nevertheless, Pakistan’s newly elected democratic government is boldly moving forward on an agenda that we hope and expect will dramatically transform Pakistan in the months and years ahead. We do not share Mr. Nawaz’ resignation that our past will dictate our future.
With respect to the rather incredible allegation by Mr. Nawaz that General Musharraf somehow engineered the current PPP government victory, we would point out that General Musharraf did everything he could to postpone, manipulate and distort democratic elections, but was overwhelmed by the forces of history and the indefatigable will of the people of Pakistan to reject dictatorship and embrace democracy. Both the Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Kayani and the Director General of the ISI, General Pasha, not only appreciate the clearly expressed will of our people to reject authoritarianism and military intervention into our nation's political affairs, but are pro-actively working with the civilian government to bring change to Pakistan. We move into the New Year optimistic, fully committed to making Shaheed Benazir Bhutto's dream a reality in Pakistan.


(Nadeem H. Kiani)
Press Attache,
Embassy of Pakistan,
Washington DC.

tiglathpileser Author Profile Page:

This has veered so far off its original topic that its worth enjoying on its own basis...

Clearthinking (ha!)..

Regards your comment-

"But don't fall for the aryan invasion theory. This is a construct of British "scholars" based on linguistic analysis only. I have studied archeology; there is no good archeological evidence of an "aryan people" in the caucasus even to this day or evidence of a mass migration. The linguistic based idea of an invasion was proposed by the British instead of accepting the fact that a language superior to English could exist in the Indian subcontinent. How would the British then justify colonizing people who have an advanced language and culture."

Really? First, its not just "British" scholars. Second, its not just archaelogy- DNA testing shows many North Indians with the Y DNA Haplogroup R ( for more on haplogroups etc see www.genebase.com). The Y DNA Haplogroup R originated in South Ukraine. How do you suppose those people got to North India- teleportation?. You could argue whether it was an invasion or a migration, but you cannot say it didnt happen.

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

To haters of defenders of Hindus:

Take the time to read this article. It was written by a white non Hindu, so don't be afraid.

http://francoisgautier.wordpress.com/2008/11/01/the-hindu-rate-of-wrath/

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Mischka,

Do you know that Vedas could be challenged and are not always supreme ? There are holy texts in the Hindu belief system that apparently trashes the ideas in the Vedas. Did you know that Ms. Mischka "10th concubine" Sheikh ?

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

"Hatred for Indian Muslims and wanting them to either to leave for Pakistan/Bangladesh, convert to Hinduism or die........but having a Muslim as a trusted caretaker of his maternal ancestral home"

Azhar Ali is a very nice person. In fact he wanted to leave for his home in Barasat. I had to persuade him to stay back. His sons (Munir and Aslam) are being hired by a local IT company as delivery persons (they drive minivans carrying the company stuff). Azhar bhai is a religious person, and I have asked him to use our ancestral home for his Friday prayers if he wants to. But,
Azhar bhai is slow with age.

I would trust Azhar bhai more than a Hindu, and is true to the personal traditions of Prophet Muhammad. He is a great guy.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

"A hate filled Hindu fascist cannot possibly understand, even remotely, the concept of Advaita or non-duality Vedanta as taught by Adi Shankara. "

Wow !!! I am impressed, Mischka ! Now your oily sheikh shall kick you out because you are reading too much of kafir stuff instead of living upto his satisfaction ! You know what I mean !
Voulez Vous !

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

A hate filled Hindu fascist cannot possibly understand, even remotely, the concept of Advaita or non-duality Vedanta as taught by Adi Shankara.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

DebChatterjee:

The problem with this 10th concubine of a fatherly old sheikh, Mischka, is that she is misinformed or has a warped sense of logic.

Hindu facists is a figment of imagination. All that we see from Mischka's writings is just opinion, which is fine in a way, but no substantiation by way of referencing her sources. That's why one cannot take her seriosuly, at least me.

It is hilarious: when Muslims are criticized about Quran/islam etc., sources are cited. That makes the assessment objective. When Muslims spew venom against Hindu facism and what not it is just gassy. No sources are cited, or in rare cases when sources are cited, they do not say what the claims have been made from them.

Looks like Muslims and pan-Islamists need a Logic101 course to being with.

December 30, 2008 10:21 PM

**************************
In order to understand this squint eyed, PSEUDO Brahmin, it is only necessary to read about Hitler-Modi and his party the BJP, spin of RSS in India/HSS(overseas), spin of VHP of India (Bharat) and its cleverly disguised overseas branches, henchmen Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena...

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

DebChatterjee:

Hey Mischka (or politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1) I have a question for you and you only: what is the special school of thought/belief about Divinity that Shankara is credited with propounding, as *distinct* from other schools of thought/beliefs in the Hindu belief system ?

Do you know that Ms. Gasbag ?

December 30, 2008 10:25 PM

************************
Hey, squint eyed PSEUDO Brahmin, read my previous posts to dispel your ignorance about non-duality.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

DebChatterjee:

Hey Mischka (or politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1) I have a question for you and you only: what is the special school of thought/belief about Divinity that Shankara is credited with propounding, as *distinct* from other schools of thought/beliefs in the Hindu belief system ?

Do you know that Ms. Gasbag ?

December 30, 2008 10:25 PM

************************
Hey, squint eyed PSEUDO Brahmin, read my previous posts to dispel your ignorance.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Deb Chatterjee:

Mischka (politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1), dear, I have one (maternal) ancestral house in South Calcutta (Bhavanipur to be precise) which is looked after by our old caretaker Azhar Ali. I live in US, and visit Kolkata, Bangalore and other cities for my own work - as the need arises. There is nothing inconsistent about this.

Perhaps, you should stop all this and listen to your old sheikh. He would likely ditch you if don't go back to him, and get others. Where would you go if he disowned you ? No mosque would shelter you.

December 30, 2008 10:13 PM

********************************
Folks, look up the word schizophrenia from reliable medical sources (NOT Wikipedia, which can even be a source of MISinformation!) in oder to make sense of the above logic.

Hatred for Indian Christians, contempt for Christianity, denying Indian Christians their right to practice their religion in India, and hatred of white colonial masters, but living in the US...

Hatred for Indian Muslims and wanting them to either to leave for Pakistan/Bangladesh, convert to Hinduism or die........but having a Muslim as a trusted caretaker of his maternal ancestral home.

SO...

On American sofa sitting, American popcorn eating, American TV watching, computer war games addicted, squint eyed, hate filled, meat eating PSEUDO Brahmin, Bengali Babu...Deb Chatterjee:

Get some medication from a shrink and cognitive behavioral therapy from an experienced clinical psychologist to deal with your distorted logic, your hypocritical behavior and to overcome your addiction to playing computer war games.

As to my obsessing about my oil sheikh, you really are better off keeping your wife happy, or she might look for an old oil sheikh while you are on your travels in India on PSEUDO Brahamanic business.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

This is what is happening in Pakistan. Jammat-ud-Dawa, is still operating despite the Goverment ban.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Defiant_JuD_to_continue_charity_work_despite_ban/articleshow/3914721.cms

This means Lashkare-Tayyiba still operates. The useless Pakistani government cannot be relied upon. Nukes are the answer. Jai Narendra Modi !

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

"The modern Hindutva has nothing to do with Hinduism. It is all about business and vote collecting for a political party. "

Is that ultra-orthodox Hindu Brahmin your old Lalaland sheikh in disguise ? :-)

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Hey Mischka (or politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1) I have a question for you and you only: what is the special school of thought/belief about Divinity that Shankara is credited with propounding, as *distinct* from other schools of thought/beliefs in the Hindu belief system ?

Do you know that Ms. Gasbag ?

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

The problem with this 10th concubine of a fatherly old sheikh, Mischka, is that she is misinformed or has a warped sense of logic.

Hindu facists is a figment of imagination. All that we see from Mischka's writings is just opinion, which is fine in a way, but no substantiation by way of referencing her sources. That's why one cannot take her seriosuly, at least me.

It is hilarious: when Muslims are criticized about Quran/islam etc., sources are cited. That makes the assessment objective. When Muslims spew venom against Hindu facism and what not it is just gassy. No sources are cited, or in rare cases when sources are cited, they do not say what the claims have been made from them.

Looks like Muslims and pan-Islamists need a Logic101 course to being with.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Mischka (politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1), dear, I have one (maternal) ancestral house in South Calcutta (Bhavanipur to be precise) which is looked after by our old caretaker Azhar Ali. I live in US, and visit Kolkata, Bangalore and other cities for my own work - as the need arises. There is nothing inconsistent about this.

Perhaps, you should stop all this and listen to your old sheikh. He would likely ditch you if don't go back to him, and get others. Where would you go if he disowned you ? No mosque would shelter you.

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

Manoo:
You may be interested in reading the following book.
"In Search of the Cradle of Civilization" (Paperback)
by Georg Feuerstein

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

Manoo:

Your anger at the aryan invasion would be justified. But the truth is that the aryan invasion theory is a politically expedient theory made by the British without any archeological evidence. It has been successful in further dividing Hindus as the British wanted. There has been and is discrimination in India based on caste, and has to be addressed socially and politically as well as legally.

But don't fall for the aryan invasion theory. This is a construct of British "scholars" based on linguistic analysis only. I have studied archeology; there is no good archeological evidence of an "aryan people" in the caucasus even to this day or evidence of a mass migration. The linguistic based idea of an invasion was proposed by the British instead of accepting the fact that a language superior to English could exist in the Indian subcontinent. How would the British then justify colonizing people who have an advanced language and culture.

Please use your energy in attacking social and economic injustice in India. Just remember, Indians have many EXTERNAL enemies, most have been more subtle at attacking India than Pakistan. Indians fighting with each other and being disunited is one of the main problems in the bigger picture. Brahmins may have been a problem for your ancestors, but now you have the Indian constitution on your side, and there has already been a dallit President.

In America, blacks were slaves for centuries and were treated worse than Hindus ever treated other Hindus overall. Now Obama is the President. Change and progress are happening in America and India, stay optimistic and work towards making a better India. Fight hard for good in the battles of today and tomorrow. But don't keep fighting about the past.

p.s. You may be interested in listening to Barack Obama's speech on race relations in America (on the web), particularly the point about viewing race (or caste) relations as static versus dynamic.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

MANOO:

One Hindu saint who is credited with winning back Hindu converts to Buddhism is Adi Shankara, better known as Shankaracharya. He is the author of REAL Vedanta. He belonged to the ultra orthodox Brahmin community in Kerala called Nambudiris. Nambudiri Brahmins follow only the first three Vedas. Shankaracharya brought the Vedic Hindu understanding to an end. Hence the term Vedantha which stands for Veda and Antha = end.

As a Sannyasi, Adi Shankara gave up his affiliation to his Hindu caste. Therefore he is not referred to a Kerala Nambudiri by anyone although that was his Hindu community and caste.

His spiritual insights coincided with Buddha's spiritual insights. Remember Buddhism is about personal experience of spiritual realities. So Adi Shankara had his own spiritual experience and explained it in his own Hindu way without knowing or reading any Buddhist Scripture. That is how the so called Buddhist insights got integrated into Hinduism, although the Hindu insights are not explained in the same way as Buddhist. Adi Shankara was fully a Hindu and believed in God, which the Buddhists don't. Adi Shankara established mutts in four corners of India. He is credited with doing the same kind of work for HInduism that Buddha did for Buddhism - going all over the country to convert people. However he restricted himself to debates with other Brahmins and other schools of Hindu thought and did not preach to the public like Buddha did. That is why he is so revered by Hindus, and Vivekanda refers to Vedanta stemming from Adi Shankara, better known as Shankaracharya.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

MANOO:

One set of distortion of Indian history to replace another set is no help.

First of all this Aryan invasion theory is still being hotly disputed. There is no historical proof and therefore one theory is as good as another. That is not the case with Islamic invasion. Besides with Aryan "invasion" the right word to use is migration. Whatever happened was a peaceful movement of peoples from one part of the world to another or one part of India to another. The so called Aryan invasion did not happen on horseback or chariots. The religion they brought with them integrated peacefully with local religions and even absorbed local gods.

Manu who wrote the Manu Smrithi is the culprit with the creation of the rigid Hindu caste system. Manu Smrithi is not accepted as Scripture by real Hindus. Caste system can be considered akin to the class system found in all parts of the world in ancient times. It developed in unique ways in India under the Hindu influence. But don't forget it was the Kshatriya and businessmen class that was engaged in worldly power acquisition and money making respectively.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

A REAL ULTRA Orthodox Hindu Brahmin shared his opinion of modern Hindutva with me and it goes thus:

The modern Hindutva has nothing to do with Hinduism. It is all about business and vote collecting for a political party.

Manoo Author Profile Page:

Who is a brahmin among you dear--------???

India do not belong to the Brahmin invaders of central asia. They invaded as the muslims did.
See their real face:

Disappearance of Buddhism From India: An Untold Story
Naresh Kumar

The Buddha's fight against Brahminism won him many enemies from among the Brahmins. They were not as greatly opposed to his philosophical teachings as they were to his message of universal brotherhood and equality for it directly challenged their hegemony and the scriptures that they had invented to legitimize this. To combat Buddhism and revive the tottering Brahminical hegemony, Brahminical revivalists resorted to a three-pronged strategy.

Firstly, they launched a campaign of hatred and persecution against the Buddhists. Then, they appropriated many of the finer aspects of Buddhism into their own system so as to win over the "lower" caste Buddhist masses, but made sure that this selective appropriation did not in any way undermine Brahminical hegemony. The final stage in this project to wipeout Buddhism was to propound and propagate the myth that the Buddha was merely another 'incarnation' (avatar) of the Hindu god Vishnu.
The Buddhists were finally absorbed into the caste system, mainly as Shudras and 'Untouchables', and with that the Buddhist presence was completely obliterated from the land of its birth.
Being treated worse that beasts of burden and forbidden to receive any education, these people gradually lost touch with Buddhism, but yet never fully reconciled themselves to the Brahminical order. Many of them later converted to Islam, Sikhism and Christianity in a quest for liberation from the Brahminical religion.
The various writer of the puranas, too, carried on this systematic campaign of hatred, slander and calumny against the Buddhists. The Brahannardiya Purana made it a principal sin for Brahmins to enter the house of a Buddhist even in times of great peril. The Vishnu Purana dubs the Buddha as Maha Moha or 'the great seducer'. It further cautions against the "sin of conversing with Buddhists" and lays down that "those who merely talk to Buddhist ascetics shall be sent to hell."


politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Correction:

Remembering the 150 MILLION Indian Muslims who choose to live in India of their own free will, should be a help to Pakistanis who are willing to look with peace building eyes towards India. The latest in the peace building effort should be the choice of the people of Jammu and Kashmir to vote in a free and fair election as part of the Indian democratic process. Trying to annexe Indian territory in the name of Islam by Pakistan is no help.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Hindu fascism and Islamic extremism trying to worm its way into India to create a chaos, is leaving India in a mess.

Hindus need to wake up and stick to the secular Indian Constitution, to take the wind out of the sails of both groups.

Hindu fascists are short sighted thinking only of their benefits. They do not realize that they are giving opportunity for Islamic fascists from Pakistan to take advantage of the division they create in India. Kashmiri separatists are backed by Pakistan. All this talk of Harappa civilization is coming from Pakistanis.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

It is in the best interest of Pakistan to give their poor education in REAL secular schools, with a curriculum that does not reinvent the Pakistan-India history that vilifies India and brainwashes them to hate India and Indians. It is also helpful not to feed vulnerable Pakistani Muslims with a virulent interpretation of Islam that pits them against all non-Muslims, both in India and around the world. most Hindus themselves.

If Pakistan ceased to make India a permanent bogeyman, it could save its resources for other useful purposes within Pakistan, instead of war against India, as it is doing now. A thousand cuts to destroy India might have been the policy of one ignorant Pakistani military dictator. There is no obligation to follow it at Pakistan's own peril. The peril being Pakistan has become internationally known for its terrorist factories, and it has no resources for uplifting its own poor Education of its poor has been left to fanatic imams in madrassas funded by Islamic terror organizations.

History books used in schools need to stop portraying a distorted picture of India. Remembering the 150 Indian Muslims who choose to live in India of their own free will should be a help. The recent decision of the people of Jammu & Kashmir to opt for the Indian style of free democracy should be another help.

Manoo Author Profile Page:


Why the christians have problems in India.

A quote from an article: The Black deed of Brahmins.

We researched Babsaheb Ambedkar and Jamnalal’s article on how the budhist nuns were convertd into prostitutes by the Brahmin Priests. It is a heart wrenching story. We toured all over north karnataka and maharashtra interviewing and talking to the devadasis. These Devadasis dont know anything about Buddhism. The priests have completely erased all the buddhist memories. The majority of the people who use Devadasis are upper caste lingayaths. These people still retain all their brahmin tendency. We asked the devadasis if they are willing to reconvert back to buddhism, but they don’t know anything about their roots. The brahmins have left no evidence that they had a Buddhist tradition. All these devadasis are picked at a young age from Dalit caste. Many dalists also believe in this Devadasi sanctity. We were shocked to know about it. None of them know their glorious past. Thanks to Babasaheb and Jamnadas we know the truth which none of these people know.

We also visited the place where they used to do nude worship of the local gods yellamma. This has now been banned by the goverment after the brahminical upper castes protested against it. But however some dalits are still protesting that they should be allowed to worship yellamma in the nude. We also spoke to the father of a local church there and we all agreed that the only way we can stop all this is either accept the brahmincal court injunctions or convert all the people to christians. We finally decided to social engineer the area and opted christianity for them. Because we know the horrors of Brahminism and we dont want them back to worshipping the old gods with full clothes. They better well go to church.

Manoo Author Profile Page:

We dalits had created the greatest civilization on earth in Harappa and Mohenjadaro. The Brahmins who came from central asia and called themselves aryans were so jealous of this civilization. They came and looted us and took all over wealth. They raped our women, took away our cattle. The genocide of Hitler is nothing in comparison with this. But out historians don’t even talk about this. We have the living proof of harappa and mohenjadaro in pakistan. My heart bleeds when I see those ruins. How cruel the brahmins are. This finished our civilization and drove all the people to tamil nadu. It is the great leader Periyar who has liberated our thoughts from this slavery. Periyar said Brahmins are like snakes. Kill them wherever you find them. We should follow periyar and reclaim our lost heritage of Indus valley civilization. We should identify the students of Chanakya who read the arthashastra and used it to destroy Indus Valley civilization and teach these brahmins a lesson. Chanakya’s strategy will not work any more.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Unless the democracy loving Pakistani people manage to take control of their own country, all they will have at best is a puppet civilian government where the President and others will do exactly as they are told by the military.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Deb Chatterjee:

Mischka, where did you get your information about India (Bharat) from ? From Quran ?

December 30, 2008 6:32 PM

************
It is well known where Hitler-Modis get their Indian history from: The Ramayana with flying chariots and talking animals. And they have a policy to liberate all mythical Hindu gods from their mythical birthplaces which are supposedly under Mosques. REAL Hindus are quite concerned about their gods all being so powerlessly trapped under Mosques.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

As a non-Pakistani I can say that Ms Bhutto is one brave woman. She went back to Pakistan in order to bring democracy to Pakistan, knowing fully well that her life was in danger. She offered her life for her people. She deserves to be remembered and her courage as a woman and as a Muslim who loves her people and wants the best for them need to be celebrated. Only a few such brave souls have walked the face of this earth. Her father was also one great hero who gave his life for his people.

It does seem that her husband is inclined to carry on her work. But at the moment he seems to speak as if he has a K-56 stuck to the back of his head as he reads out what he is expected to say. When Mussharaff was President, it was the President who did the speaking. All of a sudden, with President Zadari, it has become wrong for the President to speak on behalf of Pakistan. That just shows Pakistan is ready to shoot down any element that wants real democracy in Pakistan. It is only a matter of time before the military is back to where it was for most of Pakistan's history - in power as a dictatorship oppressing its own people.

Pakistani people need to wake up and fight for democracy in their land.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

One can say with some certainty that only certain groups of Hindus are gladly accepting Hitler-Modi Hinduism.

1. Hindu businessmen who are looking for cheap slave labor in India and would like to employ poor Hindus who are being told it is against Hindu Dharma to complain against exploitation. The hatred for Indian communists, who are just another democratically elected leftist party, which has power only in two states, West Bengal and Kerala, and is in coalition with the ruling Congress Pary, is vilified because they fight for laborers' rights and form unions to help the exploited poor.

2. Non-Brahmin Hindus who are desperate to feel a sense of pride in being Hindus and being given a share in Brahmin pride with the Hindutva philosophy. Brahmins know that the crumbs are being thrown at non-Brahmins with an ulterior political agenda by the BJP party. Hitler-Modi is as much a henchman for the Hindu fascists as a facist himself. He is the political arm of the sinister RSS and VHP who churn out the agenda from behind and pull the strings. Hitler-Modi as a backward caste is pretty low down on the caste system himself. But the beauty of the Hitler-Modi agenda is that its sinister policies are directed only against non-Hindu minorities.

3. Some Brahmins, who are being patronized by rich businessmen, are willing to give credibility to the brand of Hinduism they know is nonsense, but do it anyway for money and other perks. They provide the pseudo intellectual spin by rewriting Indian history which will soon have as much credibility as Greek mythology, and giving the whole political party agenda a religious legitimacy which has absolutely nothing to do with Hinduism, and is in complete contradiction to Vedanta.

Check out all the Hitler-Modi supporters. They are sure to fit into one of these three categories.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

VEDANTA and hatred for non-Hindus?

Who is ignorant about Vedanta?

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

On American sofa sitting, American popcorn eating, American TV watching, computer war games addicted, squint eyed, hate filled, meat eating PSEUDO Brahmin, Bengali Babu...

Deb Chatterjee:

You are a miserable liar for trying to create the impression you live in Kolkotta. You live in the US and you already mentioned you last visited Kolkota three years ago. Keep your lies consistent.

Read about Brahmins in other states. You seem to be poorly informed. India doesn't consistent of only Kolkota you know. Besides, Kolkota Brahmins are the least likely to be orthodox because Kolkota was the seat of British colonial rule and the Brahmins worked hand in hand with the colonizers for their own benefit. Now all of a sudden it has become useful to talk badly of colonial rule and hence all the Hindu Dharma as the next trick in the book to benefit themselves. Real Hindus who care for their country worked for Indian freedom in different ways without pitting one group of Indians against another.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

On American sofa sitting, American popcorn eating, American TV watching, computer war games addicted, squint eyed, hate filled, meat eating PSEUDO Brahmin, Bengali Babu...

Deb Chatterjee:

You are schizophrenic, a split personality. There is medication available to treat the condition. Use your big bucks gained from slave labor in India to consult a good shrink in the US who will give you medication and refer you to a clinical psychologist trained in cognitive behavioral therapy to help you with the cure of cognitive distortions and hateful exploitative behavior.

UPA, which includes the Congress Pary, is not yet dead as a political force yet.

Not all Indians are baniyas who get fooled with your kind of pseudo Hinduism.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

DebChatterjee:

Politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 (Mischka) wrote:

In my house in South Kolkata, I have a Muslim employee (Azhar Ali) as a caretaker of my house when I am on business travel like now. And by your fulminations I am the last vestige of ultra-orthodox Bengali Brahmin, no ? So, where did you find such fanciful stories ? Quran or the Sharia, perhaps ... guessing ...

December 30, 2008 6:24 PM

*****************************

On American sofa sitting, American popcorn eating, American TV watching, computer war games addicted, squint eyed, hate filled, meat eating PSEUDO Brahmin, Bengali Babu...

Deb Chatterjee:

OK. That explains your fanatic support for Hitler-Modi. You are a business who needs slave labor in India! You are a pseudo Brahmin because you eat meat and because you are a businesman. You need to be given an award for your disgusting exploitative hypocrisy for employing a Muslim to take care of your home while at the same being a fanatic hater of Muslims. Things can't get much worse than that. You are a happy psychotic who doesn't even feel the need for a shrink.

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

Bostonbrahmin:

You criticise Hindus even if they make great economic progress, which you state is more important than culture, religion, or philosophy when it comes to terrorism.

You criticise Jews and say "there is no moral justification for the jewish state".

BUT you don't criticise islamic terrorists. You make excuses for them. You split hairs (Pakistanis are "mature enough to have developed a brand of Islam that is much more uplifting than the Wahabism of SA")

What the hell does a "brand" of Islam mean? Should Islam not be based on the Koran? Read these few passages in a real Koran, and see if you can come up with a brand of Islam based on the Koran but not softened by Vedanta.
The Holy Koran Ch.9 verse 5: "So when the sacred months have passed away, then kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush."
[9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah.
There are many more similar passages.

I don't mind muslims defending Islam or terrorists defended terrorism. But it is nauseating to watch ignorant (you don't even know what Vedanta is - admit it) and knee-jerk Hindu-bashers defend islamic terrorism, even before the bodies of the dead innocent victims have cooled. Think about it.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

"This has got a sinister implication if Hitler-Modi comes into power. The US would court him in the interest of US economy."

That is precisely why sensible Indians would vote for Narendra Modi as India's future PM. He would protect US interests being himself from the "baniya" (Vaishya/trader/business) caste. Got it, Mischka ?

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Mischka wrote:

"The largest Indian kingdom around 300 BC was by Emperor Ashoka, a Buddhist king who converted from Hinduism. The Mogul empire and British India did not extend as wide as that."

Read the book:

Arthur L. Basham, THE WONDER THAT WAS INDIA: A SURVEY OF THE CULTURE OF THE INDIAN SUB-CONTINENT BEFORE THE COMING OF MUSLIMS.

There are several maps in this book from old sources and they include the perimeter of "Bharat" as I had indicated in my e-mail.

(available online at http://www.amazon.com)

Mischka, where did you get your information about India (Bharat) from ? From Quran ?

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Deb Chatterjee:

If you are comforting yourself with what you mistakenly construe as US support for Hindu fascism, consider the US support for Saudi Arabia, Saddam Hussein before he invaded Kuwait, all the Pakistani military dictators...

US foreign policy is not based on any religion. It is based on what is strategically most beneficial to US economy. This has got a sinister implication if Hitler-Modi comes into power. The US would court him in the interest of US economy. So only sensible Indians can stop Hitler-Modi from within. Once he comes into power, Indians will have lost all control over him. Hindu fascism will go mainstream and be strengthened in a big way. Only Indians can stop it.

See the danger of Hindu fascism? Outsiders can come in and divide Indians against each other on the pretext of protecting them against Hitler-Modism. Hence Hitler-Modism must be uprooted by Hindus from within.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 (Mischka) wrote:

"The most ultra-Orthodox Brahmin community in one state have subdivided their own Brahmin caste to various sub-castes so that all labor is divided among them. They neither associate with other castes, nor do they exploit the other castes for cheap labor."

In my house in South Kolkata, I have a Muslim employee (Azhar Ali) as a caretaker of my house when I am on business travel like now. And by your fulminations I am the last vestige of ultra-orthodox Bengali Brahmin, no ? So, where did you find such fanciful stories ? Quran or the Sharia, perhaps ... guessing ...

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

"I would be only too glad to drop a nuke directly on your head to relieve you of your hate and yes blind, fanatic obsession with Hitler-Modi."

Voiced like true Muslimah, Mischka. Not everybody is nice, and hence Narendra Modi retaliates in equal kind. Just as Israel is doing to the Gaza terrorists, backed by Iran. Wait till Modi becomes the Prime Minister of India. Your likes would know on whose head the nuke falls

BTW, it is a poetic reality that your gladness at nuking unbelievers reflects sexual contortions under the darkness of the Islamic burqah. Does your sheikh beat you up in a paroxym of dissatisfaction ? Did you see a shrink lately ?

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

MANOO:

Although it is common even for middle class in India to have domestic servants, one finds many strict Brahmins do not employ domestic servants at all because they do not want a non-Brahmin to be in their house and cook their food.

The most ultra-Orthodox Brahmin community in one state have subdivided their own Brahmin caste to various sub-castes so that all labor is divided among them. They neither associate with other castes, nor do they exploit the other castes for cheap labor.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

MANOO:

It seems you have been doing a highly biased kind of data gathering with a preformed conclusion. All oppressed are Dalit Muslims and all oppressors are Brahmins.

Hinduism has four castes. Brahmin, the priestly class, Kshatriya, the warrior, ruler class is the second rung, Vaishya, the third which is the businessman class, and Sudra, the service class. Dalits are outcastes, who do not belong to the Hindu fold at all. They are the tribals who live outside the Hindu society and are mostly animists or worshipers of gods and images which does not form a part of Hinduism.

According to Hinduism, although the Brahmins created the caste structure, jobs were strictly divided. As you can see from the class structure, a Brahmin neither rules nor does business. Rulers and businessmen exploit the sudras for their slave labor. Brahmins are usually patronized by the ruling class and business groups. They give a religious legitimacy to the caste structure, but they do not directly employ slave labor.

Terrorism as response to poverty is a special kind of Islamic ideology that has started in the recent past. Yet we don't find the poor Muslims of the Middle East rising up as terrorists against their Muslim masters.

There have been poor people all through human history. Terrorism as answer to poverty is a recent development. There have been overt political upheavals, but stealthy terrorism, a carefully planned guerilla war, is new.

Nobody does the Indian Muslim poor a favor by turning them into terrorists. Look all the good it did to Pakistan's poor.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Deb Chatterjee:

Correction: Pakistan did not exist before 1947 and neither did India. It was called "Akhand Bharat" (literally meaning complete Bharat). This "akhand Bharat" included what we know as India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan. The region bordered Persia.

December 30, 2008 12:08 PM

**************************

Having a psychotic episode, are you?

The largest Indian kingdom around 300 BC was by Emperor Ashoka, a Buddhist king who converted from Hinduism. The Mogul empire and British India did not extend as wide as that.

Where exactly does Hitler-Modism fit into all of this?

Has the Hitler-Modi fans ever asked themselves how Buddhism was wiped off India's map? Buddha spent over 40 years after enlightenment walking the length and breadth of India converting Hindus to Buddhism. Emperor Ashoka likewise sent out Buddhist missionaries far and wide, spreading Buddhism to Sri Lanka and the Far East. So why was Buddhism wiped off India's map? Wait, before blaming the Muslims. Reason? It would collapse the theory that Muslims killed off all the Hindus and force converted them to Islam. It leaves a gaping hole in trying to explain the presence of so many Hindus in India today, and no native Buddhists. The only Buddhists on Indian soil are Tibetan Buddhist refugees led by the world famous Dalai Lama.


Manoo Author Profile Page:

The real issues in India is not the economical progress of Gujrat but the oppression of minorities and lower hindu caste - the untouchables - the dalits.
This is what they have to say:
In the first half of the year 2006, we visited many North Indian centres and met a wide variety of Dalits, Muslims and BCs as well. We visited Bihar, UP, Gujarat, Kerala and spent many days and met the victims of Brahminism. All the victims we met were unanimous in pointing out the Brahmins as their tormentors. All of them blamed only the Brahmins for all their sufferings.

In other words, the Brahmins and their Brahminism are identified as the cause of their suffering. That means the victims have identified their principal oppressor. If this is true and the Dalits — the worst victims of Brahminism
Brahminism is such a dangerous poison that can enslave anybody. In our Editorial of Sept.1, 1992 we said: “India, world’s only country where slaves enjoy slavery”. The slaves of India not only do not know they are slaves but actually they are enjoying their slavery because they attribute their slavery to karma (which is a fantastic Brahminical trap).

In all other parts of the world the victims of oppression have not only identified their oppressors but also fought them. But the world’s most baffling problem is that in India the slaves are not only enjoying their slavery but carrying their very slave masters on their head. Heard of it anywhere? Forget about India, no Western expert has even bothered to diagnose this most baffling and puzzling disease.

Dalits alone constitute a formidable population — almost a quarter of India’s 1,000 million population. About 250 million which is bigger than the combined population of entire Europe.

This oppression will sow terrorism in india even if outside terror is met out.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

DebChatterjee:

Mischka (aka politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1):

Yoiu have posted stuff at 2:34 a.m. EST. What's the matter girl ? You are posting at that time of the night/morning ? You should be busy with your oil skeikh at that time in that palace in Lalaland ! Instead thinking of Hindu Facism and getting blue in the .... ??!!!

December 30, 2008 9:44 AM

**********************************

On American sofa sitting, American popcorn eating, American TV watching, computer war games addicted, squint eyed, hate filled, meat eating Brahmin, Bengali Babu...

Deb Chatterjee:

You really should worry about keeping your wife happy and not be concerned about my sex life.

I would be only too glad to drop a nuke directly on your head to relieve you of your hate and yes blind, fanatic obsession with Hitler-Modi. The world remembers there was a time when many Germans thought he was a pretty cool guy. Most of the other Germans didn't know what he was really up to because the media was fully controlled and anyone who criticized Hitler and the Nazi ideology got promptly shot. The world knows the end of that...Luckily secular democracy is still alive in India and has not knuckled fully to Hitler-Modism. The greatest danger comes from people like you sitting on American sofas....etc and fomenting hatred in India by remote control and sending big bucks to promote it there. Hitler-Modi is all for offering slave labor to rich business, hence he is popular with those who are looking for slave labor in India. Hilter-Modism tells the poor exploited laborer that they are not supposed to complain against exploitation because that would be against Hindu Dharma. Maybe you benefit from that kind of Hindu Dharma, hence you support it. Thank God the father of the Indian nation, and many Hindus in India today, still don't follow that kind of Hindu Dharma.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Actually defense consultant Dr. Brahma Chellaney is right.

His latest on this is at the Hindustan Times link:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=HomePage&id=4b9d0a27-ecb4-4c9b-8bd9-fc2f3720fdc0&&Headline=Words+are+all+we+have


This is a must reading because it shows how defense experts in India are feleing about the Indian government taking on combating terrorism.

Yes some leftist, pan-Islamist peaceniks can squeak about Chellaney being a Hindu facist, but the USA doesn't think so. He is consulted by the FBI on several matters.

bostonbrahmin Author Profile Page:

I must be clear..I was merely answering a queston..

Also, a lot of times I see links drawn between India and Israel, and their responses to attacks.

My posting has nothing for or against Judaism, but against Zionism, the state of Israel and its policies. I find their policies morally wrong, and counterpoductive in the long run.

tiglathpileser Author Profile Page:

This post has clearly veered off into invective and name calling. The topic is Pakistan and its future, not Hinduvta, the raison d' etre of the jewish state etc. These extraneous points have nothing to do with Pakistans future or its lack thereof.

BostonB, I have agreed with much of what you say but must part company with you on your diatribe on Israel. First, it was "founded" by "white people" because they were the ones trying to establish a safe home post Hitler. Since then there has been jewish immigration all over the world. Second, there is a lot in common between the jewish and hindu worldviews. Both are non proselytizing religions for example. Both value education and delayed gratification.

bostonbrahmin Author Profile Page:

Thus your hatred for Modi, Hindus and India mean nothing, except some moral support to pan-Islamists and leftiost liberals. BTW, what's your view about Israel pounding Gaza ?

**************************************************

Ha...so the fact that Gujratis are good in business stems from the anti-muslim Modi? Tell that to those Gujratis running all the corner shops in Boston, that it is not their business skills but Modi who is the reason they do so well.

Again, I repeat: Narendra Modi is guilty of genocide, and should be hanged for his crimes.

Abost Israel, the spawn of uncle SAM, the least that can be said the better. There is no reason why a bunch of white people should be colonizing the middle east, based on their "God gave me this land" theory, and F16s from US.

Sooner of later even the thick skulled americans will realize that their uncritical support for the Jews will be the reason for their downfall. Not soon however, as the ONE has chosen the most pro-israel person as his secretary of state.

There is no link between India and Israel, and there is no moral justification for the existence of the Jewish state. It is precisely the lack of morality that drives the Zionists to kill innocent people. Their days are however numbered.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Bostonbrahmin wrote:

"He will not be known for any economic prosperity but the shamelss massacre of muslims, for which he should have been hanged already. "

Narendrabhai Damodardas Modi is the emblem of modern Hindutva. Oh ! Yes he is the future PM of India ! Go to India and ask any Hindu of what he thinks of Modi, and the answer will not be far from what I have written. (I was surprised to hear these views when I had asked around when I was in India about 3 years ago.) You are just too steeped in comunal hatred to see the economic prosperity that Modi has brought to Gujarat. The recent Times of India (not a Modi friendly newspaper) poll showed that Gujarat is the most investor-friendly state. In contrast, West Bengal is the least investor-friendly state. Maharashtra, where Mumbai is located, ranked below (2nd or 3rd) Gujarat.

West bengal is the most Muslim friendly state and the least economically developed state. Gujarat is the most economically developed state and least Muslim friendly state.

So, if Indians want to hug/embrace Islam and Muslims as a premium, they should forsake any thoughts of economic progress.

Thus your hatred for Modi, Hindus and India mean nothing, except some moral support to pan-Islamists and leftiost liberals. BTW, what's your view about Israel pounding Gaza ?

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Bostonbrahmin wrote:

"India/Pakistan/Iran are ancient civilizations that predate Islam, and are mature enough to have developed a brand of Islam that is much more uplifting than the Wahabism of SA, which is more suited to nomadic tribes."

Correction: Pakistan did not exist before 1947 and neither did India. It was called "Akhand Bharat" (literally meaning complete Bharat). This "akhand Bharat" included what we know as India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan. The region bordered Persia.

Arabic Wahabist Islam is the rigor mortis of a troglodyte culture. (Osama bin Laden and his ilk adhere to the Wahabist doctrines, inspired by Abdullah Azzam in Pakistan, bin Laden's mentor.)

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Mischka (aka politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1):

Yoiu have posted stuff at 2:34 a.m. EST. What's the matter girl ? You are posting at that time of the night/morning ? You should be busy with your oil skeikh at that time in that palace in Lalaland ! Instead thinking of Hindu Facism and getting blue in the .... ??!!!

bostonbrahmin Author Profile Page:

Dear Clearthinking...

I have been trying to say for a long while, and I havent been able to get into some solid walled cranium..

1. Tribal identity and culture is everything. Indian and Pakistanis are not Arabs. India/Pakistan/Iran are ancient civilizations that predate Islam, and are mature enough to have developed a brand of Islam that is much more uplifting than the Wahabism of SA, which is more suited to nomadic tribes.

2. With this background, it is more likely that as standards of living increses, people will be able to focus more on things that average "normal" people focus on...the house the car and the TV.

3. Both the countries have problems. Whatever gas bag theory you might have about Hinduism, the facts of the ground are nothing to be proud about. Modi-ism is well known. He will not be known for any economic prosperity but the shamelss massacre of muslims, for which he should have been hanged already.

4. Again, so far we have very clearly seen that the absence of good schools for the poor in Pakistan has driven people to send their kids to the Wahabist Masrassas, which brand them for life by teaching them to hate everybody and giving them no life skills. The best way forward is to invest in schools for the poor.

5. I would not even pretend to comprehend the lust for genocide of some of the individuals. I would assume that they are either having fun throwing the discussion off the civilized track, or they need professional help. The fact is that war can achieve NOTHING, if it is not directed against a well ordered millitary structure. As the "war on terror" has shown clearly, you cannot fight an ideology with bullets. The best way forward is to go for better policing.


Finally, could these individuals please take your "So is your mother" arguments elsewhere?

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

"CLEARTHINKING:"

If you are not a Hindu fascist, you are a Hindu fraud.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

"CLEARTHINKING:"

Your condescending attitude may fool the ignorant. I happen to be sufficiently informed about the politics of BJP masquerading as religion. Your pseudo Hinduism doesn't fool anybody except people like yourself.

And don't forget in the US, some like Rajneesh, the fraud sex-guru was accepted as a "guru." And there a whole lot of pseudo gurus like him who made big bucks in the US in the name of Hinduism. Not everyone are that ill-informed.

You must try your Hindu fascist tactics with someone who is knows nothing about Hinduism.

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

To politicallyincorrectworldcitizen:

As Ronald Reagan once famously said: "There you go again."

Please spend some time learning the meaning of the words fascist, secular, democracy and dharma before you use them.

A little help for you from Wikipedia:
"the term FASCIST has become hopelessly vague over the years and that it has become little more than a PEJORATIVE EPITHET." - sounds like your style of worldcitizenship.
George Orwell wrote in 1944:
The word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else. – George Orwell, What is Fascism?. 1944.[46]

"Secularity (adjective form SECULAR) is the state of being separate from religion. However, prayer and meditation are not necessarily non-secular being that the concept of spirituality and higher consciousness are not married solely to any religion but are practiced and arose independently across a continuum of cultures."

DHARMA is a concept used in Hinduism and Buddhism. I think it is too subtle of a concept for you at this time. Truly understanding concepts like dharma, karma, yoga, etc... requires a more peaceful disposition, and frankly, more maturity.

I hope you will not continue to hurl epithets like fascism, but I suspect you will. I believe you are intelligent and educated, but have fallen into the same self-hating Indian trap as people like Arundithi Roy.

Hope this helps.

P.S. The main reason for the extraordinarily rapid political ascent of the BJP has very little to do with fascism but has more to do with the degeneration of the proud and patriotic Congress Party of Nehru into the self-serving and politically expedient Congress Party of Sonia Gandhi.
Feel free to scream "Hindu fascist".
But not only is this term an oxymoron, it does not apply to me.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

It is a cheap politically trick for any Hindu fascist to imply that a REAL Hindu would vote for the BJP party, as if voting for any other party implies one is not a REAL Hindu. And what is this "REAL" Hindu? RSS, the mother of the BJP party, was a militant underground political organization that distorted Hinduism for its own political ends.

The US also has a secular constitution. Does any politician allowed to claim that a REAL Christian would vote only for him or her? And how much credibility would it have among Americans? India is a much older country compared to the US. No Hindu needs to prove their Hinduness by voting for a particular political party. They vote for the benefits they get by voting for a particular party. Since BJP discriminates against non-Hindus, especially Indian Christians and Indian Muslims, and blatantly flouts the Indian constitution with regard to the quota system (which is like an American party wanting to reintroduce slavery in this day) in the US today, the party would not be allowed to contest elections. A strong case against the party could be made in the Supreme Court.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Just as it is much more effective when Pakistanis themselves take on their terrorists, and Muslims in general fight against the terrorists among them, so it is for Hindus to take on Hindu fascists, who have been responsible for spreading a hate filled, intolerant and violence supported ideology, striking at the root of what the secular democracy of India stands for.

If Hindu Dharma is intolerant to any Indian on its soil, then it is a Dharma that needs reform. Hinduism has been reformed over and over again.

Besides what is the talk of Hindu Dharma doing in a secular democracy?

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

There is an extensive discussion on Hindu fascism on the blog of Vivian Salama: Pakistan, India's Greatest Ally.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Anyone who is against Hindu fascism is supposedly against Hinduism. This is no different from an Islamic terrorist who claims anyone who doesn't support terrorism is against Islam.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

First there was the militant RSS in 1925, which worked independently during the freedom movement. Then there was BJP in 1980 as one of the members of RSS.

But Indians and fathers of the Indian nation have been around much longer.

BJP remains just one of the many parties in India.

Gujarat: anyone cared to ask how the non-Hindus minorities are faring there, and in other states where BJP is in power? And what policies BJP has been following with regard to non-Hindu Indian minorities?

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

Bostonbrahmin please!
Your reflexive anti-Hindu sentiments are making you irrational.
First you say "the best way forward is to help Pakistan become prosperous. As the standard of living goes up, the jehadi attitudes will dissipate." One could excuse this to childlike idealism that many profess like "worldzitizen" (really? citizen of the world? with all that hate for Hindus and others).
Then you blame prosperous Saudi Arabia for jehadism. You defeat your own "lack of prosperity" argument for islamic terrorism.

But wait, there's more.

"the economy needs to keep moving and gaining speed" and "less Modi-ism will help India best"
Need I remind you that under the leadership of Modi, the economic growth rate in Gujrat has been the best in the world. Millions of Indians (jehadi and nonjehadi) have benefitted. Of course, you are not happy about this because that would give credit to Hindus.

Hate Hindus first, apologize for islamic terrorism, and only then can one become a high minded idealist and a member of the Congress Party. Well done.

You are still suffering from the inferiority complex the British left for you and you fathers.

Be strong and proud. If not for yourself but for the next generation. Like Swami Vivekananda said "If it is strength you need and strength resides in Hell, then go down into hell and get it." He was a man who lifted India up. Learn and grow and stop trying to hide your weakness of character behind pseudointellectual idealism. Men of character don't have to aplogize because they they live the right life (Dharma)

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

DebChatterjee:

Mischka (aka politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1) wrote:
I suspected and have it now almost confirmed that you are indeed Mischka the old pan-Islamist hack. Are you really not ? And Mischka was a female Muslim who claimed to have an Indian granny ? (This was from the Ayan Hirsi Ali blog on WaPo). Right Mischka ?

December 29, 2008 10:21 PM

****************

Read our exchange on Vivian Salama's blog, right here on PostGlobal -

Pakistan: India's Greatest Ally

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

I mentioned on another blog that I'm not a Muslim, but squint eyed meat eating Brahmin Bengali Babu cannot accept it because it is too much for his hate filled brain to grasp.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

DebChatterjee:

The following

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/29mumterror-military-options-are-never-easy.htm

article suggests that India has nothing to its credit regarding combating Islamic terrorism funded by Pakistan. The writer of this article is a well respected defense analyst in India. I think the article states that India is a "soft state" and won't be able to combat terrorism effectively. A very ominous prediction indeed.

December 29, 2008 10:41 PM

*******************************

Anyone who reads the article carefully enough would not fail to detect the Hindu fascist ideology thrown in quite casually.

There is more than an implication that Indian Muslims are all potential terrorists and that there are many sleeper terrorist cells within India.

There is a blatant call to change the constitution that reserves places in educational institutions and government jobs for the backward castes with a view to improve the lot of the millions of poor in the country. The right wing militant Vaishya Raj which is supposed to benefit only Hindus, whose lower castes will willingly accept exploitation from their higher caste bosses is quite clear.

This is the goal of BJP. It is an open secret. The rest of the article is redundant. The Congress Party is doing everything it can to improve security in the country. It has not fallen along the lines of BJP to go into war with Pakistan.

All the overzealous arguments in favor of war by ardent supporters of war on this thread have been adequately addressed.

bostonbrahmin Author Profile Page:

Dear all

Within all of this love-fest and character analysis (HA HA) of the Prophet (PBWH), there seems to be a vital fact that is lost.

Tribal traditon and not religion determines the nature of the people. This is not only true for the Indian subcontinent, but almost everywhere.

People should be aware that when it comes to women's issues, there is hardly any difference between the bigots in either community.

kalm33 Author Profile Page:

Breaking News:
"Scenic Pakistani valley falls to Taliban militants"..AP..

" despite an army offensive that began in 2007 and an attempted peace deal. It is especially worrisome to Pakistani officials because the valley lies AWAY from the areas where al-Qaida and Taliban militants have TRADITTIONALLY operated and where the military is staging a separate offensive.

"You can't imagine how bad it is," said Muzaffar ul-Mulk, a federal lawmaker whose home in Swat was attacked by bomb-toting assailants in mid-December, weeks after he left. "It's worse day by day."

"Militants began preying on Swat's lush mountain ranges about two years ago, and it is now too dangerous for foreign and Pakistani journalists to visit."

QUESTION FOR PAKISTANIS ON THE BOARD: IS THIS TRUE? OR PROPAGANDA COVER FOR ZARDARI TO "TELEGRAPH" TO USA HOW IMPORTANT HE IS ETC..???

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

And squint eyed, on America sofa sitting, American popcorn eating, American TV watching, computer war games addicted, meat eating Brahmin Bengali Babu...

Deb Chatterjee:

Concentrate on keeping your wife happy. Stop fantasizing about Badgley Mischka's models.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

DebChatterjee:

Mischka (aka politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1) wrote:

"I have been mistaken for a Republican trigger happy Christian fundamentalist male too. How do you explain that?"

I did not. I suspected and have it now almost confirmed that you are indeed Mischka the old pan-Islamist hack. Are you really not ? And Mischka was a female Muslim who claimed to have an Indian granny ? (This was from the Ayan Hirsi Ali blog on WaPo). Right Mischka ?

December 29, 2008 10:21 PM

****************************
Squint eyed, on America sofa sitting, American popcorn eating, American TV watching, computer war games addicted, meat eating Brahmin Bengali Babu...

You ARE completely confused. You poor thing. Stop playing those computer war games. It will help clear your head. Right now you have figured me all wrong. You even got my gender wrong, before I told you.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Leaving aside all crappy shintoisms the following

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/29mumterror-military-options-are-never-easy.htm

article suggests that India has nothing to its credit regarding combating Islamic terrorism funded by Pakistan. The writer of this article is a well respected defense analyst in India. I think the article states that India is a "soft state" and won't be able to combat terrorism effectively. A very ominous prediction indeed.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Mischka (aka politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1) wrote:

"I have been mistaken for a Republican trigger happy Christian fundamentalist male too. How do you explain that?"

I did not. I suspected and have it now almost confirmed that you are indeed Mischka the old pan-Islamist hack. Are you really not ? And Mischka was a female Muslim who claimed to have an Indian granny ? (This was from the Ayan Hirsi Ali blog on WaPo). Right Mischka ?

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Mischka (politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1):

"You should be willing to admit that there might have been at least some truly admirable qualities in Mohammad, even if you are not a Muslim."

Yes, and the ones I admire (Muhammad the ordinary human being) are:

1. Brutally steadfast with his objectives - even it brought undesired calamity; a great inspiration for military successes

2. Honesty in his personal dealings with people

3. Strategic thinking and bravery (he claimed it was given by Allah to him).

4. Astute observer of human matters; look at the laws he made for an Islamic society - they are almost foolproof to a fault and functional even today (for Muslims).

5. Ability to compromise at times of necessity. (This is questionable, as say some biographers and commentators).

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Deb Chatterjee:

Here take a hint from me: don't judge people based on comments on a blog. From the look of it people are not even able to distinguish genders, leave alone religious affiliations. Why should they? People post comments about an issue. The comments are thoughts on a topic and has nothing to do with gender or religious affiliations.

Btw, I'm female. But the fact I have been mistaken for a male and given all sorts of different religious and political and national affiliations proves that I'm posting exactly as intend to - without any political correctness.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Deb Chatterjee:

That's why Islam is a barbaric religion. Because while prophet Muhammad may have had some practical and noble intentions, though some scholars still question it and attribute it to his lust for women, his 7th century legacy of polygamy is followed even today under the guise of Allah's sanction [Quran(004:003)].

December 29, 2008 9:38 PM

********************

It is true Mohammed married many young and beautiful women after the death of his first wife, to whom he remained faithful for 25 years, as long as she lived. But in those years after the death of his first wife, he did also marry many war widows, just to offer them protection, not to gratify his lust because he did not have sex with them. You should be willing to admit that there might have been at least some truly admirable qualities in Mohammad, even if you are not a Muslim.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

DebChatterjee:

Mischka (aka politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1)

:-). So, you are most likely that same Mischka the Muslimah (along with that queer Victoria) who has been supporting Islamic terrorism to achieve liberation for Muslims (on Ayan Hirsi Ali's blog) anywhere on this planet.

You can run but you can't hide. Gotcha !

December 29, 2008 9:33 PM

****************************
I have been mistaken for a Republican trigger happy Christian fundamentalist male too. How do you explain that?

You can run from your ignorance, but you can't hide. Gotcha!

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Mischka (aka politicallycorrectworldcitizen1) wrote:

"Mohammad was happy with a woman 15 years older than him for twenty five years! He married several older women to give them protection. So it is really not all that bad to be even the 15th wife of an oil sheikh."

That's why Islam is a barbaric religion. Because while prophet Muhammad may have had some practical and noble intentions, though some scholars still question it and attribute it to his lust for women, his 7th century legacy of polygamy is followed even today under the guise of Allah's sanction [Quran(004:003)].

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

DebChatterjee:

Politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1:

Aren't you that Mischka character from a different WaPo blog on Islamic terrorism ? Now you are blaming a pious Muslim country called Pakistan (land of pure) ???

What happened ? That sheikh is getting old and has taken a 11th concubine, ditching you ?

December 29, 2008 7:52 PM

*************************

I know you really mean, *I* must be getting too old for that non-existent oil Sheikh? But guess what? Mohammad was happy with a woman 15 years older than him for twenty five years! He married several older women to give them protection. So it is really not all that bad to be even the 15th wife of an oil sheikh. The only problem is that I have never met an oil sheikh, and I can't recall having a particular longing to meet one. I get only spam from many "kings and queens" in Africa who are eager to give me all their money, like they are to all the people whose email addresses they manage to pinch from God knows where.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Mischka (aka politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1)

:-). So, you are most likely that same Mischka the Muslimah (along with that queer Victoria) who has been supporting Islamic terrorism to achieve liberation for Muslims (on Ayan Hirsi Ali's blog) anywhere on this planet.

You can run but you can't hide. Gotcha !

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

DebChatterjee:

Politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1:

Aren't you that Mischka character from a different WaPo blog on Islamic terrorism ? Now you are blaming a pious Muslim country called Pakistan (land of pure) ???

What happened ? That sheikh is getting old and has taken a 11th concubine, ditching you ?

December 29, 2008 7:52 PM

*****************************

You mentioned that the Indian army refused to recruit you as a Jihadi because of your squint eye. Now, that must be saffron black lie because meat eating Brahmin Bengali Babus do not fight their own battles. They sit on their American sofas, eating American pop corn and watch American TV covering the violence they instigate with their saffron henchmen recruited from among the gullible, poor lower castes.

You are the ardent Hindu fascist who is against your own people in India, Indian Muslims and Indian Muslims. Because of your squint eye you tend to look upon all Muslims as terrorists. You are unable to distinguish Muslims who are recruited by politicians for their own ends in the name of Islam.

Maybe you could try to learn to tell the difference between your hatred for all Indian Muslims just because they happen to be Muslims from the real POLITICAL problem India has with Pakistan, in which Pakistan merely uses Islam as an excuse?

And stop playing those computer games, where nuclear wastelands and neutron bombs can erased with a few deft clicks.

Better concentrate on keeping your wife happy. Stop fantasizing about Badgley Mischka's models.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Pakistan could learn a good lesson from the way Germany conducted itself after WW II. Defeated and defanged, the US gave Germany money with the Marshall Plan to rebuild itself. Germany did not have to worry about military expenses because the Allied troops were stationed in Germany (the US is expected to withdraw its last troops only sometime in 2009 after nearly 65 years!) and Germany was not to be given a chance to be naughty. It suited Germany just fine. Germans set about rebuilding their country, unlike the Iraqis who are busy killing each other settling never ending grievances and taking revenge.

Germans were so happy not having to spend any money on military, that they had only a minimum military strength as part of NATO. Being part of NATO assures them of protection if invaded by any country. They are not happy to go on invasions any more because they had their fill of it during WW II. They got so used to spending extremely little on their military and having all that money to spend on other useful things, that there was crisis when they were asked to pitch in with NATO during the crisis in Kosovo. They had a legal barrier to taking part in any military operation as a result of WW II. Most Germans were quite happy to hide behind that legal barrier to avoid getting involved in other people's wars, even if the effects of it could spill over into Germany in the form of refugees.

So there was a protracted debate in the German parliament. The then Green Party Foreign Minister, Fisher, made a case for just war. And Germany joined the NATO in helping with the Kosovo problem. Now they are involved in the Afghanistan problem, also as part of NATO. Germans go kicking and screaming into war situation although during WW II they were a trigger happy nation under Nazi guidance.

Pakistan could learn from that. There are other uses for intelligence than making wars with non-state actors or state ones. There are other good uses of money for the people of the country than buying the latest submarines. People can't eat submarines. Creating a bogeyman, India, to justify buying more and more weapons, doesn't help the poor people of Pakistan. Unless the real idea is to make good business for really out of state weapons makers...

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1:

Aren't you that Mischka character from a different WaPo blog on Islamic terrorism ? Now you are blaming a pious Muslim country called Pakistan (land of pure) ???

What happened ? That sheikh is getting old and has taken a 11th concubine, ditching you ?

tiglathpileser Author Profile Page:

KALM33

I disagree with your perspective- its hard to control a fight once it begins- and going nuclear is not an option. Lets not look at the Israelis- the chaps in Gaza do not have nukes.

EVen though I disagree with you I had to chuckle when I read "The ISI general will make a small prayer to his "God" and say small-sorry for orchestrating the killing a few stone worshpping Hindus and all is well for him, He will sleep with one of his wives. Life goes on. He will plan another day." :)

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

And oh, the reason for buying German submarines is quite clear. With India expected to be a little more on the alert for Pakistani non-state actors taking over Indian fishing trawlers and arriving on Indian shores in them, German submarines sure to remain undetected by Indian Navy radar, is the solution by the military genius of Pakistan. War in all forms is its best export, remember? What a pity there is no international marketplace where war is displayed and sold...as sport. Instead what we have is extremely complicated ways to market war and weapons.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

One Pakistani politician who was interviewed after the election in Kashmir was not at all happy at the message the people of Jammu and Kashmir have sent out by participating in a free and fair election with a 62% turnout. He continued to insist that the people of J&K have only voted for their own current material needs and it is not a declaration of their desire to be a part of democratic India. How sad. How revealing.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Sorry. In my previous post I meant that Pakistan wants to annexe Kashmir on the pretext of liberating Muslims, only to have a part of India that can be used to raise money with tourism, to buy even more submarines from Germany and weapons from other countries. To be a military might than can intimidate all the countries in the region and terrorize the world with its terrorist factories. Terrorists in a country armed with nuclear weapons is terror indeed.

This is supposedly poor Pakistan?

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

In the same breath that Pakistan is claiming to be poor and in desperate need of funds for its economy it is about to spend a billion dollars on buying submarines from Germany. So much for its poverty and so much for its intention to help its poor with the money it gets from the US. Pakistan needs to paint India as an enemy to keep its military dictatorship alive. It wants to annexe Pakistan on the pretext of freeing Muslims when the real intent is to use Kashmir for raising even more money for its military with Kashmir tourism.

The poor people suffer and some of them are then lured into Jihadism. But it is a situation only their own government can change. Pumping money from the outside in the past only led to that money being used to build a greater military and building greater conflicts with India. Pakistan and India are both poor countries with the vast majority of its population living in desperate poverty. Starting an arms race between them is hardly a help. Pakistan starts a war at regular intervals with India. Both countries use up their weapons and weapons makers have a field day doing business to replenish stocks. Weapon makers see opportunity for business whenever there is a conflict between India and Pakistan. Now German submarine makers are making good business with Pakistan. Another country will pitch in and agree to sell submarines to India to keep German submarines used by Pakistanis at bay. And so it goes...the war business.

As to business, it is the same. Some rich businessmen in Pakistan will get richer. The poor will always remain poor and will attend madrassas. Some will get recruited as Jihadists for all sorts of reasons. Jihadist agenda will be kept alive by the military by portraying India and America and UK and Israel as enemies. The money given by US to Pakistan is perceived as just compensation for fighting terror in Pakistan, while at the same time creating the terrorists.

So it is all a mess. Pakistan needs to sort it out from inside. Only US, which has given it the most money over decades has the real authority to ask Pakistan to shape up. Pakistan will try every trick in the book to squirm, shirk responsibility, provide scapegoats, play victim etc. The US should be prepared to deal with all of those tricks. Pakistanis who are suffering need to know how those in power are destroying them from the inside. They need to rise up and take charge of their country. India cannot do it for them. India is the last country that can do it, because India is used as the bogeyman by Pakistan.

kalm33 Author Profile Page:

clearthinking brings up very good points.

In the house of Saud there is NO freedom of religion. WHy should there be freedom to practix muslim relidin anywere outside as well?

kalm33 Author Profile Page:

India has missed a GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY to have attacked Pakistan...GOLDEN. ISrael has USED UP the window of opportunity. Imagine, US KNew Israel will be attacking in the remaining days of December. Imagine, India could have extracted more sanctions out of Pakistan's number ONE ally the US! Pakistan got away SCOT FREE. The ISI general will make a small prayer to his "God" and say small-sorry for orchestrating the killing a few stone worshpping Hindus and all is well for him, He will sleep with one of his wives. Life goes on. He will plan another day.

Now india can sit under the fat pantsuited weight of the new madam viceroy Hillary Clinton, who will coax and contain the already cowards of india to put up.

Pure theater.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

With due respect to the noblest of intentions behind hoping that material prosperity of Pakistan is the best solution for its terrorism, a closer look at realities on the ground will suffice to prove how naive and simplistic the suggestion is.

Pakistan has been a military dictatorship for most of its 62 years as a nation. Was it the only choice it had? India was no richer than Pakistan when it started out. India with all the challenges of unifying a people with different religions, languages and cultures chose democracy. It was a choice. Pakistan had short respites from military dictatorships with corrupt feudalistic leaders, or so think most of the people and therefore the majority support military dictators rather than civilian democrats.

The US pumped billions of dollars into Pakistan and what did Pakistan do? Build an ever more powerful military. Some funds were directed to building madrassas instead of normal schools. And madrassas which taught a version of Islam to produce a kamakazi suicidal kind of guerilla fighters. It was recruitment on the cheap for the military and it helped the purpose US had, to oust the Soviets from Afghanistan. But the jihadists became independent forces. The military use them at their will, now use them as non-state actors, now drop a bomb on them to satisfy the US. Hence the mess in Pakistan. Pakistan is closely enmeshed with Taliban and Al-quaeda because the military dictatorship has its own agenda which has nothing to do with the welfare of the people. A government can always create a bogeyman enemy to divert funds to its military instead of helping its people. So India serves as the bogeyman. The military are living the great life getting billions of dollars from the US in the name of fighting the Islamic militants they helped create in the first place. The US did not ask that Pakistan produce fanatic Islamic Jihadists. But now they are there and more are churned out by the madrassas.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Those coward peaceniks in India need to take a lesson from Israel's recent offensive against Islamic militants. The NYT reports that Israel is showing it has teeth. Both Israel and India are almost of the same age.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/world/middleeast/29assess.html?_r=1

The report should bring some shame to these Paki-terrorist lovers in India and elsewhere.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Bostonbrahmin:

"Please give it up...Mr Chatterjee...You are an embarrassment, and I hate to think what people will think of Indians when they read your ravings and believe that you represent generic Indian thought."

The people/bloggers already do have negative opinion. That's OK. Anything (right or wrong) against Islam and Muslims or Islamic countries is looked with disdain (politically incorrect). That's fine with me. I would repeat that I would not have ever considered normalizing the "tensions" unless Pakistan handed over the terrorists listed (in my e-mail below). But, because Indian politicians are cowards and posturers, they are now trying to normalize relations with a fanatical Muslim country called Pakistan. Just read the link:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Time_of_war_with_India_has_passed_believes_Pakistan/articleshow/3908138.cms

So, with no guarantees that such will never happen and India reacting only pro-actively with a timid show, the situation shall remain fluid. The terrorist attack shall happen in Kolkata and Guwahati - as speculated. Then again the same hue and cry shall start. With tough anti-terror laws in place recently, their weak implementation would result in more confusion and anarchy and chaos next time. But everytime Indian Government, be it Congress, BJP or whatever shall only be posturing. The BJP of course escorted Maulana Masood Azhar to Kandhahar. Thank to India. The Congress is posturing only and making a mockery. So, Pakistan knows that because India shall only end up doing posturing because it cannot afford and does not have the guts to strike, it shall play the cat and mouse game or whatever. I repeat that had this been USA, even with one-tenth of evidence, USA would have bombed the hell out of Allah's followers there.

India is a country of cowards. The cowardice shows again and again: history of India shows that it was defeated when being a coward (that is remaining passive) was considered as a virtue.

So, don't worry about your beloved Pakistan. The main conclusion of Shuja Nawaz's forum is that Pakistan can send terrorists as they want: India shall only be posturing and willing to die by thousand cuts. Largest democracy is home to the largest number of cowards.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Manoo Mian:

Can you provide complete details of the books authored by Dr. Aamaresh Misra ? I searched Amazon and no books like the one you have cited is listed.

So, if the book has bene released, can you provide details like a ISBN number etc. which can be verified.

Otherwise this Amaresh is figment of imagination unlike Kasab the Paki terrorist from Faridkot who has claimed responsibility for the 11/26 being brain washed by the ISI and LeT operatives.

cisconwa Author Profile Page:

The Pakistani people as a whole want peace and prosperity, equally the people of India want the same. Unfortunately, radical terrorists and extremists who wear the uniform of Pakistan's military and ISI are unwisely using these surrogates, Taliban, Al Qaeda, etc. as instruments of war.

It is a tactic the US took advantage of to attack the Soviets that ultimately led to the strengthening of a religious movement that ultimately planned and attacked the US itself. Pakistan needs the US and allies to destroy these agents of terror who seek to overthrow institutions of government for their brand of extremism. The problem is no longer Pakistan's problem, the problem remains that of the world, for there can be no safe haven for people who seek to use religion to kill, subjugate, and destroy the ideas of free-thinking people. We all want peace and prosperity, and we must all learn to respect our differences, it is easier said than done, but certainly the expansion of these agents of extremism must be stopped.

Think about this, Pakistan has nuclear deterrence, so why then are they still afraid of India? This pseudo war against India exists to solely foment fear and maintain military control of Pakistan's institutions, to include allowing terrorists to frighten and kill those opposed to their power. Most importantly, the US will never be successful in Afghanistan if Wazaristan remains a sanctuary, and equally stability in Pakistan and peace with India will also remain elusive.

HassanAliAl-Hadoodi Author Profile Page:

The way things are going, soon Mr Zardari may be getting the boot-o. Returning to private life on 20th January, perhaps Messrs Bush and Cheney might go to Pakistan as advisers in democracy. If the shoe hits, er, fits.....

SM33076 Author Profile Page:

Good riddance !! We thank the Almighty that Pakistan has been rid of one of the most corrupt people to run Pakistan. We only pray that the Almighty may deliver us from Mr. Zardari as well and condemn the PPP to the sidelines for posterity.

bostonbrahmin Author Profile Page:

Please give it up...Mr Chatterjee...You are an embarrassment, and I hate to think what people will think of Indians when they read your ravings and believe that you represent generic Indian thought.

I will again state the obvious, that the best way forward is to help Pakistan become prosperous. As the standard of living goes up, the jehadi attitudes will dissipate.

The real villain, if there is one, is Saudi Arabia and its murderous brand of wahabism, being pushed with petrodollars. The local version of Islam is much more gentle and enlightened, and blessed with the uplifting teachings of Sufi saints.

Time and better control of our borders, better police work, and less Modi-ism will help India best. We need time to let the partition generation die out. Their experiences of 50 years ago cloud their judgment, and they cannot see beyond the blind hatred for Muslims everywhere. The world in the meanwhile have moved on.

India is moving forward, and people are fighting for a larger share of the economic pie. The people are focused on bettering their lives, which is exactly how it should be. The economy needs to keep moving and gaining speed, and any lunacy about war will bring that to a stop, which is detrimental to everybody.


Manoo Author Profile Page:


Here is abstracts from:
Doubts and People
By Amaresh Misra

My initial theory that basically the Sangh Parivar elements instigated the terror attacks is stronger now. In fact more than the Sangh Parivar, it was Modi--yes he is the new, modern face of Indian fascism. He is the one to have a cozy relationship with Ratan Tata, one of the most ruthless and anti-Indian business man, whose family earned its money while smuggling opium to China during the 19th century, and sided with the British in 1857, when 10 million Indians, Hindus and Muslims, lost their lives fighting the British.
In fact, Modi has left the RSS behind in many ways--he is Mossad's number one man. Recently, a top RSS functionary told me that "Amaresh we have lost control over out cadres. We never wanted to let things get out of hand in Orissa and Karnataka. In Orissa, we had even planned a joint declaration with Christian leaders. But there was a revolt from below. The VHP and Bajrang Dal refused to fall in line. Then they got the subtle support of that man Modi. We were helpless".
In Modi's form this Frankestein struck a deal with Mossad--now remember Mossad has links in the faction torn ISI--remember also that several `Jihadi' groups, in Pakistan, Afghanistan and the Middle-East are still remote comtrolled by either the Mossad or the CIA. In a recent case, a Muslim `Jihadi' organization in Yemen was found to be a Mossad set-up.

That is why it is possible the several young men who attacked Mumbai used Pakistan as a base. But their nationality is varied. Some might be Muslims from the UK as well; at least there is one with a Mauritius passport.

Dr. Amaresh Misra is an historian/journalist. His most recent book "War of Civilizations: India AD 1857" was released in March 2008 by the Vice President of India Shri Mohd. Hamid Ansari.

You can read the full article on the website if you want. It shows you the real face of terror.

SPARK1 Author Profile Page:

clearthinking1
debchatterji

You make mokery of your own arguments when you quote from Quran with sinister intentions, a book upon which you have no faith.

Taking its meaning out of context and twisting them to create an impression on the readers as if a "scholar" like you have discovered a point which was never known before is ridiculous.

How a peson dipped upto nose in hatered for muslims and Quran can be honest to interpret Quran.As a matter of fact your pseudo"wiseman" image shatters with just a mild stroke of common sense.

It is useless to argue with motivated hate-mongers and a muslim need not to answer foolish questions poised by them, however just to expose how dishonest you are in your explainaton of Quranic meanings here is a rebuttal to you.

You talked about "jizia" a tax imposted on the minorities in an Islamic state. To score a point you impressed how unjust Islam is towards minorities.
In a Islamic state there is no income-tax and the muslims pay 2.5% annual tax on their accomulated wealth for the welfare of non-previliged in the society. The minorities pay jizia - a tax for them
towards the society.
The minorities have the freedom to practice what ever religion that wish to practice.
This argument itself in enough to refute your stupid claim that Islam says kill a kafir where every you find.
Of course if you fight with us,you will find us a formidable enemy and we will surely kill you. But you will not fight us face to face but stab us at the back like in 1971.
You are the originators of training terrorists on state level and then sent them in then E-Pakistan.
The sickness of terrorism is your invention.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

arunv49:

To Debchatterjee,

You have posted several messages suggesting that India go to war with Pakistan and that the only reason they aren't is because of cowardice.

Very courageous posturing. Would you mind disclosing where you live and whether you are prepared to lead the charge? Also please let me know how many relatives or friends you have in the army.

When told that "making Pakistan a nuclear badland" would have serious consequences to India as the radiation would be blown into India by westerly winds you responded by asking if anyone had heard of a neutron bomb. As a display of utter ignorance, this takes the cake. A neutron bomb is otherwise known as an enhanced radiation weapon or the ultimate capitalist weapon as it kills people with damaging property. A conventional nuclear weapon inflicts damage by the blast effect, the radiation being a side show. The neutron bomb is exactly the reverse. It is designed to kill by radiation and therefore, would be for more dangerous for India.

War is an extension of politics by other means. It is not the first option but it cannot be ruled out. I was in the armed forces for 20 years and those of my contemporaries still serving are three star officers in all three services. While they are all prepared for war should it come to that, they are not itching to start one as you seem to be. They know the consequences having already experienced it twice against Pakistan once in Sri Lanka...

December 28, 2008 10:52 PM

**************
If I may barge in:

Deb Chatterjee is from Kolkota, was educated in Catholic institutions, is an ardent supporter of BJP and lives in the US. Kind of difficult to piece it all together. But there you have it.

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

To wbsf:

You do not need to refute any of my arguments. I only quoted the Koran. The key word in ch.9 v.5 is not idolater or infidel or kafir. The key word is "kill".

I did careful additional research after your post and it turns out the word "kill" means kill. Thank you.

Sir, the Koran speaks for itself. If Mohammed (peace be upon him) wanted you to rewrite the Koran, he would have asked you. I presume you haven't heard that voice in your head.

That is why true muslims follow the Koran and kill. They don't try to have it both ways like nonbeleiving "muslims" and claim to be peaceful. Although I have to admit a lot of islamic terrorists look quite peaceful while they kill. For example, the Mumbai terrorists or Daniel Pearl's beheader, etc... look quite calm. Is that what is meant by religion of peace?

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Clearthinking1:

...continued ...

4. On treatment of minorities (i.e. paying of the Jiziya)

YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [Quran(009:029)].

5. On establishing the "Islamic rule" (Sharia) via fighting infidels/unbelievers

YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do. [Quran(008:039)]

The above are English translations from Abdullah Yusuf Ali available at the following website:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Clearthinking1:

This is what Quran says about

1. religious plurality/equality

YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). [Quran (003:085)]

2. Physical fighting as mandated for Muslims

YUSUFALI: Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,- [Quran(004:095)]

(Incidentally the above verse is considered by Taliban, Al-Qaeda and other Muslim terrorists/militants as a justification of suicide bombing. However interpretations differ.)

3. On The Freedom of Speech (i.e. recall Salman Rushdie/Tasleema Nasreen/Ayan Hirsi Ali cases)

YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; [Quran(005:033)].

The above are English translations from Abdullah Yusuf Ali available at the following website:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Arunv69 wrote:

"In 1999 your "brave" generals sent your soldiers to die, but didn't have the courage to accept their dead bodies for burial."

Actually I need to dig up the archives of Hindustan Times where Captain Saurabh Kalia's extremely painful death was taken as a sign of sending a message to India - how brutal Pakistan can get. Pakistan caught India by surprise and USA had sent satellite pictures which then prompted the Army to fight in Kargil. Indian Army works with an antiquated mode. It has outdated weapons and a useless Gandhian doctrine. (Of course because the Army is reporting to a civilian authority, the Army itself is not to blame but ultimately the corrupt/useless politicians like the former Home Minister Shivraj Patil.) If you are going to a war, you must be as brutal as possible. If you are going to fight a war (and that too the asymmetrical war of Islamic terrorism) you need to abandon conventional methods. It is success that matters and not how magnanimous the Army behaves. Ever looked at Israel. Yes they were pounded too. But this time they are being extremely brutal. They are fighting the Palestinian Muslim extremists with much force. Yes, the whole world is condemning them. But, I salute Israel because they are pragmatically approaching the problem and don't give a hoot what the whole world says. They know how to use power when necessary. You armymen could learn a lesson or two from Israel.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Arunv69:

I did not serve for 20 years in the Indian Army. I was rejected because I had poor eyesight - that was in the early eighties.

However regarding neutron bomb, my information is at variance with yours. Thermonuclear weapons are much more destructive than neutron bombs. Neutron bombs are for killing people (biological organisms) as compared to material infrastructure than thermonuclear weapons.

The following Wikipedia (and the information is subject to verification) has this info.:

"A neutron bomb, technically referred to as an enhanced radiation weapon (ERW), is a type of tactical nuclear weapon formerly built mainly by the United States specifically to release a large portion of its energy as energetic neutron radiation. This contrasts with standard thermonuclear weapons, which are designed to capture this intense neutron radiation to increase its overall explosive yield. In terms of yield, ERWs typically produce about one-tenth that of most fission-type atomic weapons.[1] Even with their significantly lower explosive power, ERWs are still capable of much greater destruction than any conventional bomb. Meanwhile, relative to other nuclear weapons, damage is more focused on biological material than on material infrastructure (though extreme blast and heat effects are not eliminated—see Technical overview below)."

check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_Bomb

And with all due respect to your service record, I must say that you have no idea about the situation vis-a-vis India & Pakistan. For 60 years diplomacy, counter-diplomacy, counter-counter-diplomacy, back-channel diplomacy, front-lawn diplomacy, streetcar diplomacy etc. and etc have been going on. The slow and steady war waged by Pakistan with increased intensity after Zia-ul-Haqq Islamized Pakistan Army in the mid eighties, has not gone away. Since the past 20 years India is being bled by thousand cuts. I see that as a total failure of diplomacy. Now you being a "fauji" may have different perspectives on the failure, but everybody is entitled to an opinion which may be his/her reading of the facts. You cannot unilaterally state that the way I am reading the facts is wrong and the way you are reading them is right. What absolute moral authority you have ? (This does mean I am disrespecting your service record of 20 years.)

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Arunv69 wrote:

"Would you mind disclosing where you live and whether you are prepared to lead the charge? Also please let me know how many relatives or friends you have in the army."

Well.... Really infantile question/proposition. We are discussing on the blogsite. Nobody would take charge including your noble self who is apparently posing these self-righteous questions.

BTW, do you imply that if someone is not George Bush, s/he cannot criticize George Bush's policies ? If that were so, which falls in line with your post, no newspaper editorials would have any rights to express an opinion/critique. So, hang your hallowed views in the closet and from the public view. BTW, Mr. Arun, did you ever hear of the Freedom of Speech - which by definition can include offensive speech ?

More later ...

kalm33 Author Profile Page:

ArunV,
IF u don't EVEN MENTION punishment (ie. war) then you are a coward who will die thousand deaths every day in your "largest parliamentary democracy".

A nation is a "Power" if it has it's internal house in order. There is internal control. In this respect, UK, Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, China (largely) etc. are "powers".

A nation is a "Super Power" if not only is there internal solid peace and order, but it is able to PROJECT it's will and power outside its BORDERS. US, Russia, Israel, etc may be considered "Super Powers".

India: None of the above. You will know when it becomes a "Power", when...

it accepts speaking among fellow indians in a COMMON LANGUAGE without animosity. a sense of "justice" follows the law enforcement machinery. social equilibrium is reached (not current hyperpopulation growth).

arunv49 Author Profile Page:

To Debchatterjee,

You have posted several messages suggesting that India go to war with Pakistan and that the only reason they aren't is because of cowardice.

Very courageous posturing. Would you mind disclosing where you live and whether you are prepared to lead the charge? Also please let me know how many relatives or friends you have in the army.

When told that "making Pakistan a nuclear badland" would have serious consequences to India as the radiation would be blown into India by westerly winds yopu responded by asking if anyone had heard of a neutron bomb. As a display of utter ignorance, this takes the cake. A neutron bomb is otherwise known as an enhanced radiation weapon or the ultimate capitalist weapon as it kills people with damaging property. A conventional nuclear weapon inflicts damage by the blast effect, the radiation being a side show. The neutron bomb is exactly the reverse. It is designed to kill by radiation and therefore, would be for more dangerous for India.

War is an extension of politics by other means. It is not the first option but it cannot be ruled out. I was in the armed forces for 20 years and those of my contemporaries still serving are three star officers in all three services. While they are all prepared for war should it come to that, they are not itching to start one as you seem to be. They know the consequences having already experienced it twice against Pakistan once in Sri Lanka.

To Spark1.

You are making the same mistake that Debchatterjee is showing that loonies are the same no matter which country they come from.

India's retraint in not going to war with Pakistan is not cowardice as you seem to think. If you study history (and not as it is taught in Pakistan) you will find that Pakistan has fought four wars with India and lost three (The 1965 war was a draw). 93,000 of your bravest and finest surrendered to the Indian "cowards' in 1971. In 1999 your "brave" generals sent your soldiers to die, but didn't have the courage to accept their dead bodies for burial.

wdsf Author Profile Page:

Here is a link that refutes clearthinking1's argument:

http://tinyurl.com/rstoct1

Clearly shows that some people really are ignorant, esp. if they are have bigoted mindsets.

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

Rationalspeak writes that Islam is a "true religion of peace."

OK, lets just read from the Koran.

What about the Koran Ch.9 verse 5: "So when the sacred months have passed away, then kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush."
[9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah.

Doesn't sound very peaceful, does it?

Unfortunately, the history and the current behavior of most true muslims is consistent with the Koran. The extreme violence is not new and is not accidental.

Bin Laden, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Taliban, Pakistani ISI are true to their beliefs.

It is only the poor terrorist apologists that keep trying to have it both ways.

If you don't believe in it, just walk away. Or are you afraid of your own merciful god.

Wikipedia: The four major Sunni Madh'hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) and the Twelver Shi'a Jafari madhab agree that a sane adult male apostate must be executed.


DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

SPARK1 wrote:

"Fighting a war against state-less persons is more difficult than throwing a A-bomb on Pakistan as suggested by you."

Precisely. But these state-less actors are "somewhere" in Pakistan. (I have listed them.)
So, Pakistan needs to be bombed to eliminate these and other potential terrorists (state-less actors/persons).

The process needs to be repeated as often as terrorist strike India.

BTW, in 1971 war 90,000 Indian-held POW were Pakistanis and general Niyazi and Yahya Khan were amongst them. And, the days of Tipu Sultan, Ghaznavi are replaced by mohammedans such as Bin Laden et. al.

Finding these state-less actors very precisely is next to impossible; it is better to bomb these a generic place and admit collateral damage as is necessary.

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

Spark1 writes:

"All lands on the face of earth belongs to the whole humanity and so to the muslims"

There is no true Muslim who disagrees with this statement. This belief of taking over the world is actually the source of the problems. Muslims don't believe in live and let live. Please read chapter 9 verse 5 of the Quran - it actually tells muslims to kill nonbelievers. If a Muslim tells you otherwise, he is either lying or is not a true Muslim.

Keep Spark1's honest and revealing statement in mind as you have your interfaith dialogues and peace talks; just don't turn your back when you are done.

By the way spark1, your historical muslim heroes brought only suffering and evil to millions - not much more.

If muslims warriors are so brave, why did the Pakistanis lose 4 wars to India. The next one will probably will be the last (The NFL's Detroit Lions went 0-16 this year, but Pakistan won't get that many chances).

Muslim bravery encompasses cutting off the heads of cute little bleating lambs in celebration of Eid and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocents. Quietly leaving bombs in cafes and train stations is soooo brave.

Stop justifying terrorism. Using terrorism to promote a religion or a political agenda is simply wrong.

SPARK1 Author Profile Page:

Debchatterji and others such sort

You seems to be the most posted person on this blog.
Can you please tell me how many mice can bell a cat?
You are only braging on these websites in actual battle field you are cowards and you know this by history.
Your reference with which you have decorated so many comments are your home grown and need no attention.
Do you know Tipu Sultan,Mahmud Ghaznavi, Shahab-ud-din Ghauri?
All lands on the face of earth belongs to the whole humanity and so to the muslims. Hindustan is not just for the hindus it is for the muslims too.
Fighting a war against state-less persons is more difficult than throwing a A-bomb on Pakistan as suggested by you.
You were the first nation who trained the terrorist in 1971 and sent them in E-Pakistan and now these lessons are being applied upon you, so do not cry.
What you sow so shall you reap. I say again if you do justice with your minorities and give them their just share and rights in India you will be safe otherwise India will be fragmented into pieces, not because of Pakistan but of your own foolishness.
You have unhappy minorities like Daccan Mujaheedins and sikhs and christians and if they resolved to resort to terrorism it will be unfortunate for India.
Do not throw stone on others while you sit in a house of glass.

rationalspeak Author Profile Page:

...As if other agencies (like RAW, MOSAD, CIA...) are very innocent organizations and never had any hand in affairs of other nations.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

More information about how Pakistan's ISI is in cahoots with the various separatist elements in India and planning to wreck havoc in the eastern part: Guawahati, Kolkata and others.

http://eastindiawatch.blogspot.com/2008/12/isi-of-pakistan-planning-to-bomb.html

Bombing Pakistan is the only way to thwart the problem like Israel is doing now. Peace and negotiations have failed (between Israel & Palentinians, and, India & Pakistan). So, the best way to realistically "cope" with the existing and apparently unsolvable problem is to stave of the terrorist attacks by using threats of areal (surgical bombing) strikes. India being a superior military power has an advantage. Yes, Pakistan may use the nukes first. But, after that Pakistan becomes a dead wasteland. That threat must be projected while pursuing any chance of diplomacy. India does not follow such realistic paths, and is more concerned in offending Muslim sentiments rather than learning how to survive in bad neighborhood in South Asia.

rationalspeak Author Profile Page:

Islam is a true religion of peace and it is such a powerful belief. Thats why world is out to suppress this and projecting all muslims as terrorists! Just remember who used the 1st A bomb! And who is today waging wars and killing innocent humans? And who is talking of nuking other countries?
Answers are simple,only if one wants to understand.

tiglathpileser Author Profile Page:

I think HASNATF and DEB Chatterji represent the extreme ends of the spectrum- their comments generate heat but no light. Their interpretations of history are amusing (my 9 year old son was laughing out aloud as he read them asking "Daddy are these people real"? But they do not address how we solve the problems today other than testesterone infused visions of problem solving.
DMFAROOQ has stated a reasonable aspiration of wanting to get the politicians to work together, the issue is in Pakistan one has to deal with the Politicians and the Military/ISI. Its hard to have a 3 way marriage between Indian Politicians, Pakistani Politicians and the Military/ISI.
There are certain unsolvable problems in the world and I submit Pakistans development as a terror free democracy is one of them. If you accept that, the thing to do is how to cope with them as they are. I have proposed quarantine and containment, foaming at the mouth about nukes and the ancient muslim empire (which never affected the southern part of India) are not solutions.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

This is a wishful thinking: people who keep talking about "peace" can be likened to the Biblical anti-Christ. The anti-Christ (and his accomplice The Beast) is one who will win hearts of all by his apparently unifying "dealmaking" and talks of peace and goodwill, but ultimately shall lead to devastation and destruction for the mankind before the Devil is imprisoned for 1000 years by Christ. The bloggers who talk of peace between India and Pakistan have similar traits.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Bostonbrahmin opined:

"Can there even be any intelligent response to people craving genocide? Lets all just pray that these lunatics never get to positions of power.."

Well, in Pakistan there is the ISI doing exactly what you have written (slow but deliberate genocide inside India). What's the alternative for India: keep praying by hiding under the bed ?

There is saying: "If you are kind towards the evil you end up being evil towards the kind." The so-called well-wishers of India need to be sent back to schools where they can be inculcated with this spceific doctrine.

bostonbrahmin Author Profile Page:

Hasnatf

""It was the one thousand years of Muslim rule that different pieces were put together to form a geographic entity.""

Not true..at least twice before "India" has come together as one political unit, once during Ashokas time, and once during the Gupta age. Even during muslim rule, it came together only once, during the last days of Aurangzeb, which just preceeded the disintegration of the empire.

Clearthinking..
"This is why there is so much tolerance in Hinduism"
Only people with heads in the sand (or in books) can find tolerance in Hinduism. Perhaps you need to be reminded of the Caste system, the untouchability and all the other ills...but again, lets not get into that. It is only during the bhakti movement, that tolerance came back into hinduism, and that was at least partially influenced by the Sufism..

In any case the idea that a war will accomplish anything (even after the Iraq war where US got their royal ass kicked by an insurgency)..is so patently infantile, that it does not even merit a response.

Can there even be any intelligent response to people craving genocide? Lets all just pray that these lunatics never get to positions of power..

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Pakistan has a habit of trying to shoddily doing a cover-up. For example, after the 11/26, Pakistan arrested an "Indian" (because the guy was a Hindu) and said he was responsible for the Lahore blast. Then, later the Pakistan Taliban claimed responsibility for the Lahore blasts and had stated that the "Hindu" was not their agent.
Pakistan rejected the notion that Pakistan Taliban ever existed. Now read the following newsitem from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/pakistan.bomb/index.html

Pakistan Taliban's spokesman Muslim Khan claimed it was a retaliatory attack. Now the chickens are coming home to roost. What has Pakistan a failed state, only deserving to be nuked, has to say to this claim ?

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

"The exisitng war hysteria must be cooled down in both the peoples. ..... Pakistan is trying but India must play a positvie role in this regard."

India's demands at a minimum for confidence building and peace overtures, as I read on Newsweek, ToI and other mainstream newspapers, is that Pakistan hand over the following people to India:

1. Dawood Ibrahim. (Fareed Zakaria has asserted that he lives inside Pakistan. Interpol has a red alert on him.)

2. Hafiz Muhammad Saeed (founder of LeT and currently leading Jammat-ud-Dawa)

3. Maulana Masood Azhar (former LeT and JeM supremo)

4. Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi (the current 11/26 mastermind).

5. Hamid Gul (former ISI supremo and currently in cahoots with LeT in organizing the 11/26 with Lakhvi.)

If these are not met, then India must step the offensive and prepare for nuking Pakistan or in the least prepare for surgical attacks. This is my view: but most Indian politicians are cowards and would go on posturing only.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Ms. Rukhsana_Maroof wrote:

"And secondly, yeah i agree that Pakistan's real enemies are home grown jehadis....who are being financed and trained by the RAW at the Indian counselates in AFGHANISTAN..!!"

Pakistan is a failed nightmare of Mohammad Ali Jinnah. You talk of blaming everybody else for your country's goddamn woes, except yourself. Now this is the New Year (2009) gift from your "dushman" (enemy) country India. (I am quoting Times of India newsitem.)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Taliban_for_Sharia_in_Pak_tribal_areas/articleshow/3906124.cms

The Sharia is imposed by Taliban, who were recognized by your goddamn country and Saudi Arabia. And you blame RAW for all the ills in your country. What is left ? That Allah is controlled by RAW agents ?

dmfarooq Author Profile Page:

I agree wth you that Pakistan is responsible for most of its problems and they have to deal with them sooner than later. Nevertheless, U.S. and Pakistan's friends also must take responsibility for their role in bringing Pakstan to this level of destruction . U.S. with the help of Arab States' funds contributed to organise Taleban for Afghan War. In the aftermath of U.S. operations against Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan in 1980's, Taleban became a problem for their sponsors . Pakistan 's role in the War on terror of the last eight years has brought Pakistan close to becoming a failed State . Mumbai attacks have added fuel to the fire in relationships between India and Pakistan . Pakistan's and India's politicians, one day soon will have to come to the grips of the emotions of hate and ill designs against each other . Also India being a democracy and a very formidable power in the region has to adopt strategic policy decisions, to bring Pakistan closer in combating terrorism . The exisitng war hysteria must be cooled down in both the peoples. It is in the interest of both the countries to work on major issues of mutual survival with a mission . Pakistan is trying but India must play a positvie role in this regard. India has to realise that to live in peace ,blaming Pakistan for all her problems will not work any more. U.S. actions in this regard will be vital .

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

tiglathpileser:

Have you ever thought of a neutron bomb ?

tiglathpileser Author Profile Page:

Dear Mr Chatterji

Your apocalyptic views on "nuking" pakistan are very scary. Even accepting that Pakistan has been and will continue to be the source of most terrorism in South Asia and even beyond (eg the UK) dont you think that the nuclear option is extreme? Is whacking untold civilians including children your approach? And what if the radioactive cloud (depending on wind conditions) blows back to India, let alone the retaliatory strikes that will occur? Applying this logic, the Israelis should nuke the palestinians too..
Its a grossly disproportionate move to even think of the nuclear option and would make the first user an absolute pariah. .

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

More news rolling out.... US and UK are becoming frustrated at Pakistan.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Pak_not_doing_enough_despite_clinching_evidence_US_UK/articleshow/3905068.cms

Who let the nukes out ?? Hoo ! Hoo !

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

SPARK1:

You said muslims in India are lagging behind. Muslims in Pakistan are lagging behind. Muslims in almost everyplace are lagging behind. If it wasn't for the fortuitous development of oil fields in muslim lands by western oil companies, the situation in muslim countries would be truly horrible - like Sudan.
STOP BLAMING HINDUS FOR ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING.

In 1971, one of the greatest genocides and refugee crisis was created by West Pakistani Punjabi Generals in what is now Bangladesh. India trained some militants, not terrorists. Please don't pretend like there is no difference. India defeated the Pakistani military in 4 days and freed Bangladeshis. And in good Hindu tradition, India did not ask for anything as a reward for its good action.
STOP BEING A TERRORIST APOLOGIST.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Bostonbrahmin wrote:

"The comments by deb chatterjee about turning pakistan into a radioactive wasteland is infantile at best. Perhaps Mr Chatterjee's thoughts (assuming he is capable of any) are clouded by his ancestors being kicked out of East Pakistan during the partition, perhaps not."

I can simply assure that a majority Sikhs and Kashmiri Pandits think the same.

Turning Pakistan into a radioactive badland sure is cataclysmic: but it could be very well the ultimate event to happen. India cannot raise a LeT or JeM and fund terrorism insidse Pakistan. That is against the UN charters and founding principles of a secular, democratic republic. India's only choice is to fight a straight, symmetric war and not an asymmetrical one (terrorism) where inncoent civilians are targeted by armed people. (Of course some bleeding-heart leftist peaceniks would equate any violence and that including war as equal to that of murder and terrorism.)

And, BTW Bostonbrahmin, don't be a gas-brained hypocrite. Note that if USA had even one-tenth of such an evidence of terrorism, that India has provided to both USA and UK in the wake of 11/26, assuming such violent events did happen on US soil, USA would have come close to turning that country into a wasteland (radioactive or not). This would very specifically true if that country was a neighbor of USA - such as Canada or Mexico.

On top of it all, for the past 60 years this terrorism funded by Pakistan has occurred periodically. (That is what Prof. Sumit Ganguly's book asserts and provides evidence.) India's dialog and goodwill gesture towards Pakistan has done zilch/nada to end such terrorism. The feud over Kashmir, and Pakistan's unfair demands on Kashmir, or its anger at the "plight of Muslims inside India" or its anger at India choosing not to allow some personnel inside its borders - denying visa, have all been a headache and caused India to bleed by a thousand cuts. What would USA do, if it found that of extended periods of time, say Mexico, was sending its guerillas in California and Texas to foment separatism amongst the local Latino population to cause these states secede from US Republic ? Would USA just keep quiet and greet these separatists with red carpet treatment ?

Quite frankly, I feel sorry for Pakistani nationals against I bear no personal hatred. But, the country they live in or support as motherland needs to be nuked as an ultimate Armageddon in this "Hindu-Muslim/Islam-Secularism" conflict. Enough is enough !

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

Bostonbrahmin wrote:

"For India, a stable and prosperous Pakistan is extremely desirable."
Its embarassing listening to this kind of drivel. You hide behind childlike idealism, when you are simply a coward. No rational nation would ever behave like this in the face of State sponsored terrorism. You live in America I presume. Were you against the response to 9/11 and the attack on Afghanistan, Taliban, and Al Qaeda? I bet you were, because you seem confused about simple things like terrorism and the murder of innocent people being right or wrong. You are just another curious shade of a terrorist apologist. You may be a able to fool yourself, but you are not fooling anyone else.


"Please dont get into the "My God is better than your God" arguments."
You chose the name "Brahmin" but your ignorance of Hinduism is astounding. The philosophy of Hinduism (Vedanta) is called monism. This is why there is so much tolerance in Hinduism. Hinduism is not a "cult" with a founder like mohamed, jesus, moses, or buddha. That is why Hindus have never fought wars over "my god is better than yours". Hinduism began as a philosophy and continues to be that. Pseudointellectuals and idealists such as yourself often don't understand the role of philosophy and spiritualism in peoples lives. So you hide your prejudice and ignorance behind scientism. Look these words up if you don't understantd their meaning.

Again, this blog was about the myriad of serious problems in Pakistan written by a Pakistani. Interestingly, your responses are more vitriol about India and Hindus than about the obvious source of terrorism - Islamists in Pakistan.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

The problem is basically is with Indian cowardice, and that has emboldened Pakistan's arrogance at its gorilla chestbeating denials in its involvements in 11/26.

The only sane voice in this whole bloody fiasco is that of Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee, who according to some pan-Islamists belongs to the same upper caste Brahmin as me and hence by this relationship must be a fanatical anti-Islamist like me (Deb Chatterjee). What an intelligent and fantastic discovery ! (On this forum it was speculated by some Pakistani Muslim that Prof. Sumit Ganguly is basically an anti-Muslim because he has written against Pakistan in his book. Again, that shows the profound intellectual development of the characters with whom an argument is to be based. I suggest that all readers go and read the archives in the DAWN newspaper published from Pakistan at the link http://www.dawn.com/ and see for themselves what most Pakistanis think of 11/26.)

Regarding the onus/burden of "proof" that Pakistan has been clumsily asking from India in 11/26, and, the mad, screaming, Quran-thumping towel-/turban-heads in the various madrassas in Islamabad and Multan have demanded, it seems to me that the perpetrator/suspect (Pakistan) has been given the powers to pass a judgement, based on the evidence provided by tbe victim (India), regarding its involvement. This is the Times of India (ToI) latest report on this.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pakistan_laughs_off_2611_evidence_given_by_US_UK/articleshow/3905443.cms

Pakistan has basically scoffed off at the evidence provided by USA and UK who have supported India's claim that indeed it was the LeT who had done this with the logistical support of Pakistan's ISI.

Indeed total war is the only solution. For Hindus who may recall the ancient historical traditions, such obstinacy and arrogance led to the epic Mahabharata war. It is time India gets involved once again in an all out war to defend its integrity and citizens. (But eunuchs in New Delhi would rather posture and go around buying time for Pakistan.)

kalm33 Author Profile Page:

after reading these posts...there is only ONE way to settle the disputes...WAR.

WAR is the answer. Force teaches the loser (whoever they may be).

India thinks Obama will give a tear jerking speech to Pakistan and all mullahs will say: he's one of us...lets have peace!

In fact, India is NOT on anybody's agenda. Nobody cares.

War is the answer. It worked with Aurangzeb, it will work with Gilani/zardari/imran khan.

kalm33 Author Profile Page:

I really don't get it. If muslims pine for shariah law, then why not all of them go to house of Saud? Live austerely and be happpy. But no, must terrorize. If any ONE muslim is unhappy anywhere, they must blow up other jpeople. like untrained children. why? where will it end? shariah law allows this?

mike195879 Author Profile Page:

Bruce Riedel, a former CIA officer and adviser to President-elect Barack Obama: "All of the world's nightmares come together in Pakistan."

ravitchn Author Profile Page:

It was a mistake to create Pakistan, but now that we have it, such as it is, all Indian Muslims should be deported there. Muslims cannot really live with non-Muslims.

arunv49 Author Profile Page:

Those who believe that war with Pakistan is the only solution are obviously those who have no connection with the Armed Forces. It is easy to sit in a foreign land and urge an armed conflict when it is not your family or friends or neighbours who are going to be in the front line. Even in India it is not the people in the border states who are leading the clamour for war.

tiglathpileser has correctly said that provided Pakistan leaves us alone the general attitude to them is indifference. Those who believe that Indians want Pakistan to break up are barking up the wrong tree. We already have enough problems living next door to a country where nobody seems to be in charge. Any further deterioration in Pakistan would only be worse for India.

SPARK1 Author Profile Page:

clearthinking1.


You wrote the minorities has learned the lessons.

Did the majority tried to learn any lesson?

you talked about the progess of muslims in gujrat after roits.

Excuse me, I hv been to veraval - Gujrat and saw the plight of the muslims there. If a muslim open a shop in a market not a single person from hindus majority ever comes to buy from him.
In Mombai - you find your beloved minority cornered in a small portion of the city know as Muhammad Ali Road. No govt jobs for the muslims.
They are either taxi drivers or poor labourers.

You say there is not a single muslim member of Al-Qaeda.

The Indian muslims cannot have their own party in india what to talk about others membership.
Even the BJP publically confessed that the muslims in India are lagging behind in every field.
I think leadship in pakistan is foolish in attempting to be friend with India. This incidence in mombai should be an eye opener for them who have stomach pain in the love to forge love relations with India.
How generous is the majority that one of the congress leader jumped straight into the water tank to get himself cleaned after shaking hand in a meeting with Mr.jinnah.
Jinnah was a prominent leader of All India Congress. When he saw the real faces of Hinduism he changed his mind and became a staunch advocate of a seperate homeland.
Both India and Pakistan should take care of their own created messes and should not poke nose in the affairs of eachother.

Lastly do remember it was India who first of all introduced the idea of training foreigner on its soil to carryout militant activities - Don't you remember 1971.
This is the continuity of that lesson which you taught the would be "terrorists".

ur9br Author Profile Page:

I think Indian intellegence failed in Mumbai attacks. To cover up their failings and incompetence, delay in handling the situation, sending the Force to handle the Terrorists, the politians started blaming the Pakistan. Even two top leaders from the Indian Govt confessed the non professional handling of the situation.I would say it exposed weekness in Indian's capabilities of countering such situations.

ur9br Author Profile Page:

I think Indian intellegence failed in Mumbai attacks. To cover up their failings and incompetence, delay in handling the situation, sending the Force to handle the Terrorists, the politians started blaming the Pakistan. Even two top leaders from the Indian Govt cofessed the non professional handling of the situation.I would say it exposed weekness in Indian's capabilities of countering such situations.

rukhsana_maroof Author Profile Page:

i think India better stop day dreaming about possible disintegration of Pakistan or its failure.If Pakistan can survive in 1947,48 when it was an orphan child with no friends at all.And if it can survive in 1971 despite the fact that it was a non nuclear/divided state at that time, then let me assure you all that it is not going to fail in any circumstances...!
What we need today is a true and courageous leadership..
And secondly, yeah i agree that Pakistan's real enemies are home grown jehadis....who are being financed and trained by the RAW at the Indian consulates in AFGHANISTAN..!!
Miss.Rukhsana Maroof Khan
Peshawar.Pakistan
28 Dec,08

[ actually i'm sendimg this comment again for correcting some spelling mistakes]

tiglathpileser Author Profile Page:

I am generally aligned with BostonBrahmin. We have had looney tunes comments from both sides. What is generally needed is both economic development and liberalization of muslim society (role/rights/education of women). The hope would have been that with the gentler version of sufi islam prevalent in the sub continent, this would be possible. Unfortunately the Wahabi version of intolerant islam has thrown money around in PAkistan to establish itself, and in India the politicians continue appealing to the mullahs to get them to urge muslims to vote as a bloc.

That being said, I am utterly pessimistic about Pakistans trajectory. I agree its in India's interest to have an undivided Pakistan that is prosperous etc..however I see this as very low probability for reasons in my earlier post, and hence I think a quarantine/containment strategy is what is needed so that as Pakistan destroys itself without any outside help its neighbors are somewhat protected. For example, this would assume future Mumbai like attacks, and instead of assuming the civilian govt in PAkistan can do anything about it, to make sure the right defensive mechanisms (intelligence, coordination, appropriate weapons and protection ) are in place in India.

bostonbrahmin Author Profile Page:

Dear all..

I know that there is no way to justify some of the comments coming from Indians in this post. However, I would like to point out that these are opinions of the extreme fringes of Indian society, and do not represent anybody but themselves.

The comments by deb chatterjee about turning pakistan into a radioactive wasteland is infantile at best. Perhaps Mr Chatterjee's thoughts (assuming he is capable of any) are clouded by his ancestors being kicked out of East Pakistan during the partition, perhaps not.

Similarly, the cearthinking person confusing Sikh terrorism with Islamic one in India, is again laughable. The Gujarat incidents are a blot on the Indian image, and most Indians are ashamed that such incidents have taken place. The problem in India is that anti-muslim sentiments have been very good for the ballot box, and politicians have used this to help them win elections.

We have to understand that both of these countries have problems with communal violence with very old roots. It is possible that with time and modernization, some of these worst instncts will go away. Perhaps the generation of people who have witnessed the partition need to die out before such a healing can take place.

For India, a stable and prosperous Pakistan is extremely desirable. Both Ms Bhutto and Mr Sharif has employed anti-India sentiments to try to win elections. Perhaps the best way to move forward is to promote, as much as possible, economic ties between the two countries. As the standard of living increases, the agenda will change.

And, CLEARTHINKING..please dont get into the "My God is better than your God" arguments. They do not belong in here.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

India should seal her borders with Pakistan and concentrate on protecting itself from "non-state actors." India should expect Pakistan to deny responsibility, to look for scapegoats etc. Going to war with Pakistan is no solution. But carrying on a peace talk, which is a mockery, is also not the solution. The relationship should be frozen for the moment, until Pakistan shuts down its terrorist factories and becomes a credible democracy. It is foolish for India to engage in a war of words and threats. It should take measures to protect itself from within and get on with its own life. So what if it appears weak in the process. The previous wars with Pakistan in self defense has not proven that India is cowardly or weak. There is no need to prove anything to Pakistan. Sometimes looking foolish is the better part of valor. Let Pakistan do what it wants. India should be prepared for any eventuality that is all.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

Not to miss the absolute arrogance of Hindu fascists like Clearthinking. So India needs the violence of Hindu fascism to keep non-Hindu Indians in line? O what luck the Indian PM, Dr Manmohan Singh, is behaving himself according to the standards of a Hindu fascist.

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

A response to some very confused posts:

Tksami writes that Pathans are the ruling class of the subcontinent. What world are you living in? The Pathans in Afghanistan and Pakistan have the lowest standard of living in the world! There is no education and so the future looks just as bleak. Also, the Pathan women suffer horribly.

Manoo writes that minorities are suffering in Gujrat. Gujrati minorities are benefitting from the strongest economic growth thanks to the Hindu leadership. Some muslims have suffered in riots just as sikhs suffered after Indira Ghandi's assassination. But these minorities have learned the lesson and are beginning to benefit and behave as citizens of India. Can you imagine if there had been no strong response to Sikh terrorism or to the Godra train terrorist attack. Some members of these minorities behaved in an unconscionably brutal way first, and there is no ideal or perfectly calibrated response. Peace through strength is the only proven way in th real world.

A remarkable fact is that there is stil not even one known Indian member of Al queda. This is because muslims have more political rights in India than in ANY muslim country. Also, they understand that Hindus are being very tolerant, but will not tolerate islamofascist terrorism. The Sikhs have also learned this, and are again very productive citizens of India (e.g. the Prime Minister).

SPARK1 Author Profile Page:


It is also in the news tht mombai attacks may have been carried out by deccan groups.
Another Pakistan in the south.?????? who knows.

Manoo Author Profile Page:

Deb and etc.

I wonder why it is so that a great country like India chooses to fight a small nation like Pakistan.
One of the root cause might be that afghans, pathans and marshall races of central asia conquer and ruled hindus for several hundred years.
The second cause seems tobe religion. Having a caste system with as many gods to have as possible the hindus are in clash with Islam and christianity.
The class system where a large majority is considered un-touchables makes indian people weak within.\The westerns are playing a great game.
the brought the conflicts to the door steps of asia. Iraq afghanistan and pakistan all de-stablised - the result? terror and suiside bombs on one hand and ariel carpet bombing on the other.
India once sided withthe west against china now face terror too.
To settle scores with pakistan cannot end the problems for india rather this will be the beginning of the end.
Indian society is more fragmented than pakistan. if pakistan have sind baluch pathan and punjab then india have fifty. Millions of muslims and un-touchables.
If these depressed classes have equal opportunities to progress in india then take a sigh of relief but if they are crushed and disrespected and injustice is done to them and they are being masacred as is gujrat then India too will be fragmented before it takes on china as wished by india's new masters.

jamil51 Author Profile Page:

Debchatterjee

I use to read your comments but the comments you posted on this article shows how shameful opinions you have. On one hand you cry for terrorism and on the other you are suggesting to turn pakistan into a radio-active badland.
It is a sheer wishful thinking mr.deb
I think you are closing your eyes about the movements in india which want freedom let alone kashmir.
India cannot and i repeat live in peace by wishing a ruined Pakistan. If Pakistan get harmed then you will have thousands of in-born terrorists in India.
India should take more careful and resposible role and the hindu priests like you should not brag that one day you can destroy Pakistan.
You are un-reliable friend that's why our elders have thought of seperation.

tksami Author Profile Page:

I am surprised the many discerning readers have not yet understood the real issue.
Wake up guys . You have to take a step back, and take a deep breath. Don't be enamoured by the Gora shaheb.
Remember:
Indian Subcontinent is once again being exploited.
Hindu/Muslim antagonism will again result in 200 years of slavery. Have you forgotten the past so easily.
Only militarily superior nations wage war on the weaker nations. They divide and conquer.
India came under the Mogul rule (including all other conquers who came via the Khyber Pass or via the high Seas),because the Indian society was divided and fragmented by the caste system.
India again came under the British rule because Hindus sided with the Brits against the Muslim rulers.
Again it was divide and rule.
The unintended consequence was 200 yrs of slavery under the British.
Today India is over a billion people. Indians should do what they do best, make more doctors engineers,bankers, teachers etc.
Don't talk of war. This is not your forte.

Pakistan though much smaller is still the 8th biggest country in the world but more importantly it has more than half of the world's Pathans. And history bears testimony to the fact that the Pathans always made their mark outside their homeland. I have lived with the Pathans and I know you cannot change them. No one can. They won't bother you unless you bother them. They have a code of conduct. And that's it. I am 100% sure that people born in India after the Partition have no idea of what it is to be a Pathan. Well I will make it simple for you to understand. Just one example, they are more crazy than the Sikhs. Now you have some sense of what;
They are the ruling class of the Subcontinent.

Strengthen Pakisan so that the Pathans live happily in Pakistan and the Sikh's live happily in India.

India should be smart enough to realise that Pakistan is protecting its Western borders.

kohsar240 Author Profile Page:

Pakistani people have failed to hold their government and military accountable. Pakistanis, on government and public levels, think that business as usual will go on. Pakistan's military has made Pakistan and its people their source of income. Pakistani military propaganda efforts has totally made Pakistani society unable to function normally. Pakistan can not claim to be the victim of terrorism or Islamists itself because Pakistani military and its intelligence wing actually created and keep supporting them for asymmetrical wars against India and interference in Afghanistan. Pakistan's military has bankrupt Pakistan and eventually itself from too much greed and corruption. India has to attack Pakistan forcefully and target its nuclear and disrupt its command and control, if war breaks out.

ShahzadaSherSaddozai Author Profile Page:

Pakistani DEMOCRATISATION itself is worlds first example of a Despot like Gen Musharaff getting upset that badly and thrown out by polls!

Hardly another few months after The Present Govt took office a sum of Initial 5 Billion USD was extended with hint to Manufacturing although the protege leaders have patched theior own version of Photo Journalism but cannot reach solutions.Quote "what is it for"?

ShahzadaSherSaddozai Author Profile Page:

On the other page Fareed Zakaria is asking the future of Capitalism?I say it is called Globalisation and when you get you everyday product and save your one bottom dollar there will be no need for 'usury'.

In January the World Bank staked a \part of itself' to support MANUFACTURING in Pakistan but today one year later The PPP Government has yet not helped itself..The Great Soveriegn Wealth that Singapore/Qatar developed has been of no interest to them. But instead they went to borrow money from IMF intermediateries and have created a small hell for themselves..
The future is writ but they are struggling against it ,not for it! Lobbies of self acclaimed Bhuttoists have been advocating against democratisation too. Most of the element at the top jobs doesnt know how long PPP has been around or what is its real strength when it is not in power.. Most have come from other parties.

Yahoo! 360° - The Long Regime Rule has failed but.
... ART and brought its Manufacturing to Excellence has no problem ... soveriegnwealthfunds, pakistan, multan, greatglobalist, ... yahoo/greatglobalist ...
blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-s7zvUGs2aaOOh02cJmNKG676fEbzXQ--?cq=1 - 99k - Cached
Billionaire Schwarzman: "I'm Not Wealthy"
They are but manufactured puppets whose strings all end up in the same hands... Grand Ritz also threw away its old furniture.www.geocities.com/greatglobalist ...
huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/05/billionaire-schwarzman-_n_85182.html?... - 117k - Cached

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Actually this is exactly what India needs to do, emulating Israel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/world/middleeast/28mideast.html?_r=1&hp

Instead, the world largest democracy (a nation of cowards) is doing this in wake of the 11/26 Mumbai attacks:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India_Pakistan_tone_down_war_talk/articleshow/3902011.cms

This war posturing by India simply empowers the Jihadi elements in Pakistan, and buys time for the ISI to plan more devastation in India.


DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Hasnatf wrote:

"It was the one thousand years of Muslim rule that different pieces were put together to form a geographic entity."

How does it matter ? Of course, irredentist Muslim politicians want their Islam back in the seat of barbaric politics. Thus, they want to turn back the hands of the clock towards the 7th century Arabia.

That is, Muslims want the return of Mughal Caliphate. Well, that ain't gonna happen. The world has come to know what Islam (that is Sharia)can do. It can only give birth to scumbags like Osama bin Laden who is revered in the Muslim world of Pakistan because he, armed with the barbaric doctrines of Islam, has the zeal of waging war against the non-Muslim world.

The only conclusion that makes sense is that Pakistan needs to be destroyed or dismembered again and again, till the various parts can be brought under one collective UN rule.

And, Prof. Ganguly is not a Pakistan basher. (I have read hios book, and wish he were one.) Have you ever read any book of his ? He makes this point that elements in the Pakistan's political elite have always been irredentist. Anyone with a different view, will be eliminated. The slaying of Benazir Bhutto in 2007 is a case in point.

Pakistan needs to be bombed till it becomes a radioactive badland. (India does not have the guts to do that, of course.)

saintpeterii Author Profile Page:

One year after the murder of Bhutto the mystery of her assassination is unsolved. Prior to her death she pointed out who she thought would kill her and still she didn't let the extreme danger she was in deflect her commitment to the people of Pakistan. She is a hero. This week Misters Drip & Drop report from her grave. http://www.saintpeterii.com

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

Amazing!
Pakistan as a nation is failing miserably and all Pakistanis have to offer is ill-wishes for India. It again shows that Pakistan is a failed society based only on hatred, especially of India.

ECONOMIC FAILURE: Pakistan is bankrupt. Even all the loans from IMF, World Bank, Paris Club, London Club, overt and covert aid from US, and repeated refinancing of the debt have not worked.

MILITARY FAILURE: 4 wars have been lost by Pakistan. Bangladesh was freed in 4 days. The military is demoralized and cannot even control its own territory.

SOCIAL FAILURE: the miserable poverty and exploitation within Pakistan is shocking. The Honor killings and treatment of women is unacceptable.

POLITICAL FAILURE: The military coups, suspension of constitutional law, murders of Bhuttos (father and daughter) reveal no evidence of a modern political culture or democracy.

EDUCATIONAL FAILURE: The lack of modern schools and scientific education shows no potential for Pakistan to develop economically or politically in the future. The madrassas are where terrorists are openly bred.

CULTURAL FAILURE: A nation that looks the other way as terrorists and murders are being trained openly is morally bankrupt. Every Pakistani knows whats been going on in their country, and one must assume they approve of the violence in their heart.

We in the US gave billions of our money to Pakistan to improve their educational system even AFTER 9/11. Instead they squandered our good will and money on their military and ISI.

Pakistanis must stop worrying about the West and India and hoping bad things happen to others. Bad things are happening to you in your home country. Get up and fix it!

rukhsana_maroof Author Profile Page:

i think India better stop day dreaming about possible disintegration of Pakistan or its failure.If Pakistan can survive in 1947,48 when it was an orphan child with no friends at all.And if it can survive in 1971 despite the fact that it was a non nuclear/divided state at that time, then let me assure you all that it is not going to fail in any circumstances...!
What we need today ia true and courageous leadership..
And secondly, yeah i agree that Pakistan's real enemies are home grown jehadis....who are being financed and trained by the RAW at the Indian counselates in AFGHANISTAN..!!
Miss.Rukhsana Maroof Khan
Peshawar.Pakistan
28 Dec 08
3.19 am

hasnatf Author Profile Page:

India, as we see today, never existed in history. It was the one thousand years of Muslim rule that different pieces were put together to form a geographic entity. Then the British carried on the tradition. What India has to show to the world is nothing more what the Muslim built - Taj Mahal and Lal Fort of Delhi. It were the Muslims who taught them civilization and culture. Sathi, where a wife burnt herself with her dead husband was part of the Hindu "religion" eliminated by the British by force. Second, even today the Hinduism will not be complete if caste system cease to exist. In other words the division of humans on the basis of their birth - the lowest caste being the untouchables. There is a lot wrong with the primitive Hindu customs (we cannot call it a religion) that makes India behave as it is expressing itself, now.

The Indian society has various contradictions which are growing every day. There are 25 insurgency movements in India and many more getting ripe to be noticed. The artificial state of India has now fulfilled its age and is destined to die, soon - under its own weight.

India is behaving like a frog which expands itself when it sees some thing different. The talk of Indian economic prosperity is all rubbish. 70 per cent of its population lives under poverty level and there is no chance that this will improve. Furthermore India has been propagated to be "so big" by the U.S. so as to confront China. But China with its inherent strength will always dominate the Indian warmongers and caste-ridden society. India should learn to live under the shadow of the Great China.

Prof. Ganguly's ideas are well known to all. He is a Pakistani basher, perhaps since his birth. More disgraced and biased person, to say the minimum.

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

Bostonbrahmin wrote:
"nothing works like prosperity in opposing the Jehadi (and Masjid-breaking) zeal."

Almost all of the 9/11 murderers were Saudis (a "prosperous" nation), Mohamed Atta was not poor, and Saudi wahabism is very well funded.

Stop being an apologist for terrorists. There are many people in the world who have political grievances and/or suffer from poverty. They do not become terrorists. There is an obvious causal connection between terrorism and islamists. Please clear your internal agendas and stop making excuses for acts of evil.

Please open your eyes and you will see that the points made in the post are out of anger. It is silly to criticize Indian democracy as dynastic, when similar things happen in other places. Please study American politics and history (e.g. Bushes, Kennedeys, Clintons, Gores, Stevensons etc...) Of course prominent families accumulate power.

Also, Vedanta, as everyone knows, has ZERO mythology associated with it. It is only a philosophical analysis that establishes the basis of a tolerant culture. The culture, of course, has mythologies and rituals for people to use in their lives if they choose.

Stop reflexively criticizing India and Hindus. Nobody is perfect, but some philosophical and cultural systems are better than others.

Get off of your phony and hypocritical high horse of idealism. You are just using it as an excuse to criticise India in a blog that is about Pakistan. That should tell you something about your subconscious agenda.

kalm33 Author Profile Page:

Truth is...the WEST has always needed Pakistan more than Pakistan needs the west. Look when Bob Woolmer died (everyone can guess that the gangster infamous for betting [dawood] was involved) it was embarassing for Musharraf. he called in Blair got 'Scotland Yard' to kill the story. Favor called in. this is a trite example, but all the more important because it illustrates that there are NO limits to where U-K/SA will stoop to help their geo-strategic ally out.

Pakistan KNOWS the ONLY role they have in world stage right now is GEOPOLITICS. The whole army is set up to milk rewards sitting in the clubs for high tea, playing one side off another. it's a leftover of "THE GREAT GAME".

This play-off mentality is headquartered in the Punjabi-Pakistani mindset (which runs the military). So if they ARE partitioned, it will isolate Punjabis in pakistan and end this game, i do feel.

Who introduced US to China...Pakistan! Who helped fight the Soviets...Pakistan. Who sits geostrategically near the gulf...Pakistan! Who processes/tranships heroin to europe...Pakistan.

On the other side India has sworn enemy China. They help Pakistan with Nuclear tech, trade, loans, and buy their cotton since independence. Guess what, america needs China more than the other way around too!

India can only turn to Russia for help.

bostonbrahmin Author Profile Page:

clearthinking1

Please!!!! Enough of the "Heritage" talk already..

Whatever ancient mythology that you can invoke, has little to do with ground realities of today.

Invoking "Vedanta" is similar to trying to go back to the days of the Kalphate, or similar mythological stuff. Please open your eyes and you will see South Asia for what it is..a region that is seething with problems. The whole North East is in flames, Assam Valley is buring for the last several decades, there are vast regions in the central regions that are controlled by "Mao-ists".

Lets not even get into the whole story that the so called democracy in India is dynastic rule versus parties that cater of different sections of the caste system. A prime minister in waiting is best known for his taunting the muslims by riding a "rath" carrying a bow and arrow and swearing to break a Masjid.

Just a few months ago, it was Maharashtrians versus Biharies.

Please, get off the high horse, open you eyes and look at reality.

Both the countries have problems. What has made India progress over the last 10 years is the increase of wealth brought about by the software boom. People have begun to hope that the future is bright.

I will repeat, nothing works like prosperity in opposing the Jehadi (and Masjid-breaking) zeal.

clearthinking1 Author Profile Page:

To Bostonbrahmin:

1. The concept of "India" always existed in the region based on a tolerant culture and philosophy called Vedanta. That is why in the face of difficult odds a stable, increasingly prosperous, democratic India has emerged. It did not emerge from a vacuum. Please don't regurgitate the same false concepts that were promoted by the British to justify their immoral colonization and destructive policy of partition that was thrust upon the people.

2. In contrast to the underlying deep culture of Vedanta in India, Pakistan was a deeply flawed concept. A nation cannot be based solely on the concept of a religion. Many scholars have argued whether Islam and democracy can coexist, but that is a different discussion. A nation definitely cannot be based on the concept of hatred and intolerance as Pakistan has been from the beginning.

3. You say the "magic solution" is prosperity. Any "Brahmin" or educated person would know that the long term solution is not simply materialism and prosperity, but development of a peaceful and tolerant culture. This cannot happen in Pakistan, and it is failing and will disintegrate. The only question is how to minimize the damage to innocent people.

bshameem Author Profile Page:

Religious bodies, whether political parties or some other organizational entity, are the bane of both India and Pakistan's existence. Religion breeds ignorance and in a region where ignorance is prevalent, even amongst the so-called educated, it is used to inflame passions that serve a handful of self-serving individuals or groups.

Pakistan is worse off than India in this regard given the shaky political set-up. Religion has seeped into every institution and not in the way it was intended centuries ago during the Islamic Renaissance. The army and bureaucracy have stoked the flames for self-perpetuation causing tremendous damage to the nation's prospects for emerging as an advanced, forward thinking, rational country of law and order as envisioned by its founder, Jinnah, who passed away too soon after independence.

The Western powers should make it a focused aim to help transform the fundamental institutions within Pakistan by encouraging and supporting infrastructure programs and projects that will no doubt make an impact on the economically downtrodden (most susceptible constituency against the Islamist radicals), much as Obama is contemplating for the U.S.A.

And the powers-that-be in Pakistan should stand up and be counted against ignorance preaching Mullahs and their cohorts. Organizations that are mischievous (the various Lashkars - Jhangvi, Tyaba, etc.) should be dismantled once and for all.

The message should resonate loud and clear that the vast majority of Pakistanis do not wish to suffer fools anymore at the hands of the hypocritical Maulanas (e.g., Fazlur Rehman).

Let 2009 be a better year for Pakistan, its neighbors, and the region at large.

padmanabhan40 Author Profile Page:

Churchill had predicted that India being inherently "ungovernable" would disintegrate into different principalities. 61 years on, this "prophecy" is totally false. It took a long while for the idea of India to take root. And for this evolution, strong institutions were built. Governments when voted out leave office gracefully and hope to be lucky the next time. It is the poor in India who have most faith in democracy. Witness their huge participation in elections!

Over the years powers from the Centre have flown to the States and now are flowing to towns and villages. Ordinary people have developed a stake in the unity of and opportunity that is India. Unity was not based on either religious identity (though 82% are Hindus) nor on "social harmony" the quaint principle propagated in Pakistan (basically meaning Islam would transcend all other identities). Recognizing the immense diversity that exists in India, space was deliberately created for multiple identities to flourish. When in 1955 States were created mainly on linguistic lines it was felt that India would be balkanized. Far from it. India is stronger as different linguistic groups wield real power in their own States and further their own aspirations. There is none of the homogeneity and uniformity one sees in the West or Japan, in India. Unity has evolved from preservation and protection of diversity. Today Indian unity is based on the shared ethos of parliamentary democracy, a fearless judiciary, a strong independent media, a thoroughly professional but apolitical army and a perception by all that we are better off sticking together than going our own separate ways. Warts and all, India is an equal opportunity nation where people from low social and educational backgrounds have reached the highest positions in Government and industry.

Pakistan better stop day dreaming about possible "disintegration" of India. Obviously Pakistan learnt nothing from its own history. In 1971, East Pakistan broke off when Bengalis found oppression by the ruling Punjabis of West Pakistan unbearable. Islam could not keep them together. Now Balochistan is battling to secede. Again Islam is no binder as the Balochis are chafing under Punjabi domination. Having never created political institutions nor given space for multiple identities to flourish, Pakistan has survived this long only by exploiting its so called strategic location and blackmailing the West to keep up their doles while pretending to fight terrorists. The time for denouement is here. The world has seen through the Pakistani charade and is exploring alternatives to dealing with it.

bostonbrahmin Author Profile Page:

I would beg to differ from the gloom and doom scenario that seems to permeate the responses.
And Indians who seem to belive that stoking the fires of disintegration in Pakistan is a correct thing to do, should not forget the myriad forces of disintegration within India itself. Both of these countries are creation of the British, and at no point in history did "India" exist with the borders that are curerntly present.

At the end of the day, the magic solution to almost everything is prosperity. When Paksitan was formed, the situation was completely different from what is now, with the increased globalization, and the hope that the old British colonies can move forward and aspire to be among the leading voices of the world. When Tata motors can own Jaguar, the world has indeed tured around.

It is prosperity alone that can solve problems in the subcontinent. At some point of time, the people of Pakistan will realize that their neighbours will not respond to their taunts, and are busy getting the second car and the wide screen television. At that point, they will decide that it is best for them to join the game. When that point comes, people will be more interested in affluence in this world, rather than any doomsday scenario.

Why do I predict that? Because I see that the general nature of immigration from Bangladesh has changed from being mostly composed of Hindus fleeing religious persecution, to muslims fleeing economic stagnation.

Furthermore, why isnt the post or the responses so far pointing out the two most important issues here?

Firstly, the hand of Saudi Arabia and their murderous Wahabism is new to the subcontinent, where Islam was always much more mellow and strongly influenced by Sufism.

Secondly, the less than steller record of the USA in peddling Jihadism when it was deemed useful, should be pointed out and highlighted at every oppurtunity.

padmanabhan40 Author Profile Page:

It is a central tenet of Pakistan that no matter what deprivation or pain Pakistan might endure, it would be truly worthwhile so long as India could lose in the bargain. This is why even if the Muslim majority Kashmir valley (as opposed to the State of Jammu & Kashmir where Hindus dominate Jammu and Buddhists the Ladakh regions) is handed over to Pakistan, its visceral hostility against India will not cease.

To Pakistan every success of India in the world stage is cause for anger and sorrow, a call to redouble its campaign of stoking terror inside India. We are not India, we do not want to be like India, we hate India are three the principles underpinning Pakistani polity.

India has no choice but to put up with this recalcitrant, hostile neighbor.

The only way India can make Pakistan pay an unacceptably high price for its terror attacks against India is to stoke terror inside Pakistan. India must finance and arm Balochi rebels wanting to secede, Shia gangs who are targeted by Sunni thugs, Sindhi and Mohajir criminal groups wanting to rid Karachi from the domination of Punjabi and Pathan dons and some of the Pashtu tribes in NWFP who are now engaged in fighting Islamabad.

tiglathpileser Author Profile Page:

Pakistan has been an unviable state from its very formation. It was formed based on one man's ego- Mohammed Ali Jinnah- and based on the premise "we are not (hindu) India". In the 61 years of its existence its foreign policy has been based primarily on recovering Kashmir, and it has had no other vision for its reason for existence other than that. Jinnah's early death did not allow him to leave a liberal political legacy- this was a highly educated man who loved his Savile Row suits and his ham sandwiches ( his grandchildren still live in India). There has been no economic reform, resulting in most of the coutry's wealth owned by a few families and the armed forces. With a feudal concentration of wealth there has been no understanding of what it takes to build a modern economy. Also the fact is that Pakistan has allowed its anti Indian ideology to over-ride the economic imperative of trading with India which is its sole means of developing economically.
India is not obsessed with Pakistan usually until Mumbai type incidents happen. The opposite of love isnt hate, its indifference...and in my travels in India I find the younger generation generally indifferent to Pakistan and would just as soon they go away.
In short, the state began as an unviable entity with a singular and unsustainable reason for its existence, an inability to mature politically and a tenuous economic basis.
I do not think Pakistan can be expected to develop, and throwing any money at them is wasted. The challenge now is how to contain them and protect from their sole export- virulent terror

amit_goyal Author Profile Page:

The basic trap that Pakistan has fallen into is to create a culture of lies, violence and victimhood. Without a culture of truth, it's a continuous downwards slide.

India suffers from ignorance and illiteracy as opposed to a culture of lies that is rotting Pakistani society. In India, there is a large segment of public servants and technocrats commited to truth who keep the ship afloat.

The reaction to Mumbai in Pakistan has been eye-opening and educational. It is clear that Pakistani society is not ready to deal with Islamic extremism in their midst and would rather rally against perceived threats from India and the US. The primary problem in Indo-Pakistan relations is violence and hatred emanating from Pakistan in the garb of Islam. However, Pakistani media continues to write 100 articles on the ignorance and intolerance of Indian society. When was the last time intolerant Indians came to Pakistani cities and shot up innocent civilians? It's time for Pakistan to realize that the enemy is not India but home-grown Jihadis.

jailkkhosla Author Profile Page:

"India is a coward nation"

Deb, wake up. Did you forget Bangladesh? Have you ever fought in a war? Ask a general who has fought and he will tell you that the only war he likes is a war that was fought yesterday.

Look at Iraq, It has bankrupted the USA.

There are other more silent ways to destroy Pakistan and that is to hasten its self -destruction. Here are some steps:

1) India should subsidize heavily all cotton industries including garments. Other than foreign aid and cotton, Pakistan does not have any source of foreign exchange. Destroy the Pakistani cotton industry.

2) help the Balochis, the Pathans and the Sindhis to get independence from Pakistan. I have yet to meet a Sindhi who considers himself a Pakistani. the only self - proclaimed Pakistanis are Punjabi Muslims and Muhajirs, that is Muslims from India who migrated to Pakistan after stabbing India in the abck and forcing its break up .

3) Convince the West that it is in the best interests of the free world if Paksitan is broken up into four provinces and then Punjab is broken up even further into Siraiki, Punjab etc.

it is a myth that a splintered Paksiatn will be agretaer threat with nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorists.

Their nuclear weapons are already in the hands of the terrorists, the Pakistani Army.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 wrote:

"But the question is: does Pakistan want to do anything better than that for its own people?"

The answer is NO PAKISTAN CANNOT DO SO. If it could, then it would have done so in the past 60 years. India has done it regardless of it being an imperfcet democracy. Pakistan's credit is to generate and export radical Islam all over. This has also touched the 9/11 attacks on USA. Money was wired from Pakistan (Omar Sheik accused of murdering of slain Wall Street journalist Daniel Pearl.)

When the history is that Pakistan have not been able to do anything meaningful for its own citizens, has fomented unrest and radical Islam in neighboring India, raised hue and cry over Kashmir needlessly, the only way to eliminate the cancer is to get into a war with Pakistan. Enough diplomacy has happened with no results. It has been a cloak and dagger issue with Pakistan. It sends its "non-state" actors trained by the ISI agents, and then denies their identity when caught. As is patently clear, if USA had even half the evidence like the 26/11 attacks then USA would have bombed Pakistan back to stone age. And it would have been the right thing to do.

India is a coward nation. (Prof. Ganguly's book makes this implicit.) It has not shown any will to defend the life of its own citizens. So, Pakistan will get away. However, because Pakistan will be let off the hook by its victim India, does not mean that Pakistan is guilt free on the 11/26 Mumbai attacks. Indians are demanding that their government do something actionable about Pakistan. The eunuchs at New Delhi are just playing the fiddle of diplomacy and buying time for Pakistan.

politicallyincorrectworldcitizen1 Author Profile Page:

It is in Pakistan's best interests not to make a bogeyman of India. India is not interested in annexing Pakistan. It would be grateful if Pakistan did not wage a constant under the radar war against India. Sure Pakistan can spend all its intelligence and resources is setting up a strawman enemy India and keep on "defending" itself by attacking India with "non-state actors" and then blaming India for raising objections. But the question is: does Pakistan want to do anything better than that for its own people? Pakistanis must decide. Getting more money to build an even greater military that not only threatens India but is the greatest threat to its own democracy is no solution.

DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:

Shuja:

Pakistan in all aspects is a failed Islamic state. While I am of Indian extractions, and you can always label me as being biased towards Pakistan, the truth of the matter is that indeed Pakistan is descending into chaos. I have always opined that the deadly trinity A-llah, A-merica, A-rmy (AAA) rules Pakistan.

Allow me to invite you to read the eye opener by Prof. Sumit Ganguly in his book:

CONFLICT UNENDING: INDIA-PAKISTAN TENSIONS SINCE 1947. (Columbia University Press, April 2002).

Prof. Ganguly's dispassionate criticism is worth the time for the reader.

PostGlobal is an interactive conversation on global issues moderated by Newsweek International Editor Fareed Zakaria and David Ignatius of The Washington Post. It is produced jointly by Newsweek and washingtonpost.com, as is On Faith, a conversation on religion. Please send us your comments, questions and suggestions.