"you put forward a very noteworthy Israeli film as somehow providing evidence of the cultural backwardness on the part of the Muslim World around Israel and their apparent inability for self-reflection. I somehow doubt that was the intent of Ari Folman when he made "Waltzing with Bashir".
________________________________________________
So which of the Palestinian movies you listed shows self-reflection?
Leon,
It's your decency that motivated you to highlight this good work.
But I could not help chuckle when your wote:
"What happened at Sabra and Shatila in the early eighties has long been a burden on the conscience of Israel.."
With the savage jewish barbarity and war crimes and crimes gainst hmnaity,do jews in occupied Palestine have any consious??
U really need to know that jewish attrocities against Arabs is not new-it is habitual and a firm and consistent patern since the illigitimate creation of the racist apartheid jewish ethno-theocrcay in 1948.
Let me give good sources to show u the depth of the suffering and agony inflcitec by the jews on the Palestinians:
"The Birth of Palestine Refugee Problem" by a jew,Beni Morris;
"The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by another jew-Illan Pappe;
And the London-based web: WWW.PLANDS.ORG
Perhaps the conscious of another jew will be awakened and they would make an eye-opening film on the jewish attrocities of Gaza including the murdering of at least four hundred Plaestinian infants and children-israel says the were terrorists!!!
But jewish conscious does not look like it is ever waking up: despite the savagary and baraberities of jewish soldiers recently in Gaza-jews in occupied Palestine have voted for a coalition of exreme right wing parties:Kadima is the same as Likud butwears newser clothes,Likhud is Likud,Liberman is a extremist Russian mafia boss turned politican on a platform of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians inside the territories occupied by jews in 1947/8;and labor is just as worse-Barak launched the barbaeric war on Gaza.
Leon, Pls take a look at the PAlestine Question/Tragedy and not just one film.
Anyway, we should return to the discussion of the movie. What this movie shows and shows not. IMHO the realities in Gaza etc dont matter here so much, but there is an absense of politics. Politicians decide, people just follow, nothing of reasons to go to war, nothing of responsibility in a democracy etcpp. This seems to be enough for many who tell personal stories.... Introspection, Ernst Juenger comes to mind...
What exactly do you mean with your last sentence: "The world now waits for a similar exercise from a moderate Islamic filmmaker"
How about the Palestinian film "Paradise Now", which couldn't even be introduced before the Academy as being from "Palestine" because of the entrenched anti-Arab/anti-Muslim racism that denies the existence of the Palestinians, and seeks constantly to negate their human & political rights. It was a great movie, and given that Palestinians have no resources, and no state to provide them with basic physical security, it was quite an achievement. You may also want to check out "Wedding in Gallilee" (one of the first Palestinian movies) or "Rana's Wedding", "the Color of Olives", or "Palestine Blues".
If you want to go further into the Muslim world, you might want to watch the haunting Afghan movie "Osama".
Even better, how about Iranian cinema...there are hundred of movies, and I'm sure a few must be worth seeing. How about watching "A Taste of Cherry" or "The White Balloon" or "Persepolis"?
I cannot speak with any authority about Turkey, Pakistan, or Indonesia, but I will put forward an untested assumption that somewhere in those three countries (with their total population of around 480 million), there must be someone who produces some reflective and worthwhile cinema.
The problem with your statement is that it betrays a certain racism, or least a stunning ignorance of a large, expanding cinema that gives voice to the one-fifth of the planet that happens to be Muslim. It's not their fault if you choose not to watch their movies, or to even be aware of them. Instead, you put forward a very noteworthy Israeli film as somehow providing evidence of the cultural backwardness on the part of the Muslim World around Israel and their apparent inability for self-reflection. I somehow doubt that was the intent of Ari Folman when he made "Waltzing with Bashir".
To finish the above post.
That is what an Arab movie needs to honestly address.
They need an up front appraisal of how hatred and rejection have contributed to the suffering of the Palestinians, just as the Israelis are addressing how their war against the Arabs has brutalized them.
Well, the massacres were committed by Lebanese Christians, not Israelis. And, while people in Israel were appalled and held their government accountable, there has been little criticism of the actual perpetrators.
Those who have desired the destruction of Israel and initiated wars, guerrilla strikes, and terrorism have reaped the fruits of those wars-death, destruction, and chaos. On the Arab side, there has been little introspection about the whirlwind of chaos they have created through their nihilistic desire to destroy Israel. Their only response has been to whine against the success of the Israelis and highlight the brutatlity of that warfare.
That is what I am observing in the posts concerning this movie. A whining at the destruction that the IDF has wrought in its 60 year war to defend Israel. Below is a brief summary of the wars initiated by the Arabs against Israel:
1948- Rejection of a Palestinian and a Jewish state and initiation of the first war against Israel.
1964- PLO charter to destroy Israel written
1967- Arab war against Israel
1967- 3 Noes at Khartoum
1972- Massacre of Israeli athletes Munich
1973- Arab war against Israel
1988- Hamas charter calling for destruction of Israel. Deliberate suicide bombing of civilian targets inside Israel
2000-Arafat tells Israelis to "drink from the Dead Sea" rather than make a counter offer at Camp David.
War is a horrible and brutal thing. It dehumanizes everyone involved. Those who have continued to call for war, Jihad, and the destruction of Israel should bear that in mind when the whirlwind they call for sweeps them up in a storm of blood and carnage.
What do Muslims have to apologize for or achieve catharsis around? Hundreds of thousands of Muslims have been killed, wounded, displaced and otherwise terrorized by the West (US) and Israel since 9/11. In any event, it is an assinine comment to suppose it is now the Muslims "turn" to cathart. There is no Muslim "nation" or no recognized voice for Islam which can speak for Muslims. Give some of their talented young people the money and I'm sure they'll make a movie that will make your eyes pop.
When will the do a movie about the 400 little kids they just killed in gaza? Here's a true story they could base it on:
"Omar Abu Halima and his two teenage cousins tried to take the burned body of his baby sister and two other living but badly burned girls to the hospital on that Sunday….
The boys were taking the girls and six others on a tractor, when, according to several accounts from villagers, Israeli soldiers told them to stop. According to their accounts, they got down, put their hands up, and suddenly rounds were fired, killing two teenage boys: Matar Abu Halima, 18, and Muhamed Hekmet, 17.
The tractor that villagers say was carrying the group is riddled with 36 bullet holes.
The villagers were forced to abandon the bodies of the teenage boys and the baby.
When rescue workers arrived 11 days later, the baby’s body had been eaten by dogs, her legs two white bones, captured in a gruesome image on a relative’s cellphone. The badly burned girls and others on the tractor had fled to safety.
Matar’s mother, Nabila Abu Halima, said she had been shot through the arm when she tried to move toward her son. Her son came back to her in pieces, his body crushed under tank treads."
Zio-Nazi crimes are paid for with stolen US tax dollars. Makes people all over the world hate us.
For sure, 9/11 happened bacuse of zio-nazi crimes with our money.
Seeing as how it was Christians who did the actual killing, regardless of the failure of Sharon to protect the Palestinians in the camps from their fellow Arabs, it is hard to see how "indirectly responsible" is an inaccurate description.
If you want to talk about REAL Nazis, who were DIRECTLY INVOLVED, getting elected to things after a couple decades on the waiting list, let's have a conversation about the UN's Secretary General, Kurt Waldheim. I almost puked, when I saw his wall size picture in the UN headquarters.
The BBC made the mistake of showing a the major university in Gaza yesterday. It was totally unscratched by the supposed genocide. OOPS, didn't mean to let anyone get the impression that all of Gaza wasn't knocked down flat. I love it when people talk about "ethnic cleansing" in one breath, and then taunt the supporters of Israel with how the Palestinians are going to beat them in the reproduction race in the next breath.
Why don't you watch Khuda ke Liye (In the name of God), directed by Shoaib Mansoor http://www.inthenameofgod.com/. It is a Pakistani movie and brings out in vivid detail the challenges faced by Muslims both from radical fundamentalism and the Western war on terror. It has a great soundtrack, to boot.
Unfortunately, Israel has never viewed its enabling of the massacre as a "burden."
Ariel Sharon was held "indirectly responsible" for the massacre by an Israeli commission, yet Israelis happily elected him as prime minister two decades later.
And then a month ago, they inflicted another massacre in Gaza where every relief and human rights agency say war crimes have been committed.
It is therefore dishonest to pretend that one artist's work is somehow an act of national "contrition" or "introspection" when the rest of the Israeli nation is happily cheering on more atrocities against the people it has ethnically cleansed.
PostGlobal is an interactive conversation on global issues moderated by Newsweek International Editor Fareed Zakaria and David Ignatius of The Washington Post. It is produced jointly by Newsweek and washingtonpost.com, as is On Faith, a conversation on religion. Please send your comments, questions and suggestions for PostGlobal to Lauren Keane, its editor and producer.
All Comments (14)
RE I'm for the survival and security of Israel, but let's at least be honest, there are no saints in this conflict!
FACT:
Palestine inflicts micro damage to life and property in Israel.
Israel inflicts giga damage to life and property in Palestine.
HENCE LOGICALLY:
P gets micro blame and giga sympathy.
I gets giga blame and micro sympathy.
February 13, 2009 10:28 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 13, 2009 10:28
Basilk :
"you put forward a very noteworthy Israeli film as somehow providing evidence of the cultural backwardness on the part of the Muslim World around Israel and their apparent inability for self-reflection. I somehow doubt that was the intent of Ari Folman when he made "Waltzing with Bashir".
________________________________________________
So which of the Palestinian movies you listed shows self-reflection?
February 13, 2009 10:22 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 13, 2009 10:22
Leon,
It's your decency that motivated you to highlight this good work.
But I could not help chuckle when your wote:
"What happened at Sabra and Shatila in the early eighties has long been a burden on the conscience of Israel.."
With the savage jewish barbarity and war crimes and crimes gainst hmnaity,do jews in occupied Palestine have any consious??
U really need to know that jewish attrocities against Arabs is not new-it is habitual and a firm and consistent patern since the illigitimate creation of the racist apartheid jewish ethno-theocrcay in 1948.
Let me give good sources to show u the depth of the suffering and agony inflcitec by the jews on the Palestinians:
"The Birth of Palestine Refugee Problem" by a jew,Beni Morris;
"The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by another jew-Illan Pappe;
And the London-based web: WWW.PLANDS.ORG
Perhaps the conscious of another jew will be awakened and they would make an eye-opening film on the jewish attrocities of Gaza including the murdering of at least four hundred Plaestinian infants and children-israel says the were terrorists!!!
But jewish conscious does not look like it is ever waking up: despite the savagary and baraberities of jewish soldiers recently in Gaza-jews in occupied Palestine have voted for a coalition of exreme right wing parties:Kadima is the same as Likud butwears newser clothes,Likhud is Likud,Liberman is a extremist Russian mafia boss turned politican on a platform of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians inside the territories occupied by jews in 1947/8;and labor is just as worse-Barak launched the barbaeric war on Gaza.
Leon, Pls take a look at the PAlestine Question/Tragedy and not just one film.
February 12, 2009 12:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 12, 2009 12:01
Anyway, we should return to the discussion of the movie. What this movie shows and shows not. IMHO the realities in Gaza etc dont matter here so much, but there is an absense of politics. Politicians decide, people just follow, nothing of reasons to go to war, nothing of responsibility in a democracy etcpp. This seems to be enough for many who tell personal stories.... Introspection, Ernst Juenger comes to mind...
February 11, 2009 4:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 11, 2009 16:48
Leon
What exactly do you mean with your last sentence: "The world now waits for a similar exercise from a moderate Islamic filmmaker"
How about the Palestinian film "Paradise Now", which couldn't even be introduced before the Academy as being from "Palestine" because of the entrenched anti-Arab/anti-Muslim racism that denies the existence of the Palestinians, and seeks constantly to negate their human & political rights. It was a great movie, and given that Palestinians have no resources, and no state to provide them with basic physical security, it was quite an achievement. You may also want to check out "Wedding in Gallilee" (one of the first Palestinian movies) or "Rana's Wedding", "the Color of Olives", or "Palestine Blues".
If you want to go further into the Muslim world, you might want to watch the haunting Afghan movie "Osama".
Even better, how about Iranian cinema...there are hundred of movies, and I'm sure a few must be worth seeing. How about watching "A Taste of Cherry" or "The White Balloon" or "Persepolis"?
I cannot speak with any authority about Turkey, Pakistan, or Indonesia, but I will put forward an untested assumption that somewhere in those three countries (with their total population of around 480 million), there must be someone who produces some reflective and worthwhile cinema.
The problem with your statement is that it betrays a certain racism, or least a stunning ignorance of a large, expanding cinema that gives voice to the one-fifth of the planet that happens to be Muslim. It's not their fault if you choose not to watch their movies, or to even be aware of them. Instead, you put forward a very noteworthy Israeli film as somehow providing evidence of the cultural backwardness on the part of the Muslim World around Israel and their apparent inability for self-reflection. I somehow doubt that was the intent of Ari Folman when he made "Waltzing with Bashir".
February 11, 2009 11:06 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 11, 2009 11:06
Captn_Ahab, you conveniently forget:
1956 - Israeli/Anglo/French invasion of Egypt
1964? to present- Israeli nuclear arsenal
1967 - annexation of Gaza and West Bank
1967 to present - expansion of Jerusalem borders
1967? to present - expanding West Bank settlements
1970s to 2005 - Gaza settlements
1982 - Israeli invasion of Lebanon
2006 - 2nd Israeli invasion of Lebanon
--
I'm for the survival and security of Israel, but let's at least be honest, there are no saints in this conflict!
February 11, 2009 10:18 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 11, 2009 10:18
To finish the above post.
That is what an Arab movie needs to honestly address.
They need an up front appraisal of how hatred and rejection have contributed to the suffering of the Palestinians, just as the Israelis are addressing how their war against the Arabs has brutalized them.
February 11, 2009 9:54 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 11, 2009 09:54
Well, the massacres were committed by Lebanese Christians, not Israelis. And, while people in Israel were appalled and held their government accountable, there has been little criticism of the actual perpetrators.
February 11, 2009 9:35 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 11, 2009 09:35
Those who have desired the destruction of Israel and initiated wars, guerrilla strikes, and terrorism have reaped the fruits of those wars-death, destruction, and chaos. On the Arab side, there has been little introspection about the whirlwind of chaos they have created through their nihilistic desire to destroy Israel. Their only response has been to whine against the success of the Israelis and highlight the brutatlity of that warfare.
That is what I am observing in the posts concerning this movie. A whining at the destruction that the IDF has wrought in its 60 year war to defend Israel. Below is a brief summary of the wars initiated by the Arabs against Israel:
1948- Rejection of a Palestinian and a Jewish state and initiation of the first war against Israel.
1964- PLO charter to destroy Israel written
1967- Arab war against Israel
1967- 3 Noes at Khartoum
1972- Massacre of Israeli athletes Munich
1973- Arab war against Israel
1988- Hamas charter calling for destruction of Israel. Deliberate suicide bombing of civilian targets inside Israel
2000-Arafat tells Israelis to "drink from the Dead Sea" rather than make a counter offer at Camp David.
War is a horrible and brutal thing. It dehumanizes everyone involved. Those who have continued to call for war, Jihad, and the destruction of Israel should bear that in mind when the whirlwind they call for sweeps them up in a storm of blood and carnage.
February 11, 2009 9:33 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 11, 2009 09:33
What do Muslims have to apologize for or achieve catharsis around? Hundreds of thousands of Muslims have been killed, wounded, displaced and otherwise terrorized by the West (US) and Israel since 9/11. In any event, it is an assinine comment to suppose it is now the Muslims "turn" to cathart. There is no Muslim "nation" or no recognized voice for Islam which can speak for Muslims. Give some of their talented young people the money and I'm sure they'll make a movie that will make your eyes pop.
February 11, 2009 4:46 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 11, 2009 04:46
When will the do a movie about the 400 little kids they just killed in gaza? Here's a true story they could base it on:
"Omar Abu Halima and his two teenage cousins tried to take the burned body of his baby sister and two other living but badly burned girls to the hospital on that Sunday….
The boys were taking the girls and six others on a tractor, when, according to several accounts from villagers, Israeli soldiers told them to stop. According to their accounts, they got down, put their hands up, and suddenly rounds were fired, killing two teenage boys: Matar Abu Halima, 18, and Muhamed Hekmet, 17.
The tractor that villagers say was carrying the group is riddled with 36 bullet holes.
The villagers were forced to abandon the bodies of the teenage boys and the baby.
When rescue workers arrived 11 days later, the baby’s body had been eaten by dogs, her legs two white bones, captured in a gruesome image on a relative’s cellphone. The badly burned girls and others on the tractor had fled to safety.
Matar’s mother, Nabila Abu Halima, said she had been shot through the arm when she tried to move toward her son. Her son came back to her in pieces, his body crushed under tank treads."
Zio-Nazi crimes are paid for with stolen US tax dollars. Makes people all over the world hate us.
For sure, 9/11 happened bacuse of zio-nazi crimes with our money.
February 11, 2009 12:57 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 11, 2009 00:57
CROSSINGTHECRESCENT
Seeing as how it was Christians who did the actual killing, regardless of the failure of Sharon to protect the Palestinians in the camps from their fellow Arabs, it is hard to see how "indirectly responsible" is an inaccurate description.
If you want to talk about REAL Nazis, who were DIRECTLY INVOLVED, getting elected to things after a couple decades on the waiting list, let's have a conversation about the UN's Secretary General, Kurt Waldheim. I almost puked, when I saw his wall size picture in the UN headquarters.
The BBC made the mistake of showing a the major university in Gaza yesterday. It was totally unscratched by the supposed genocide. OOPS, didn't mean to let anyone get the impression that all of Gaza wasn't knocked down flat. I love it when people talk about "ethnic cleansing" in one breath, and then taunt the supporters of Israel with how the Palestinians are going to beat them in the reproduction race in the next breath.
February 10, 2009 8:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 10, 2009 20:32
Why don't you watch Khuda ke Liye (In the name of God), directed by Shoaib Mansoor http://www.inthenameofgod.com/. It is a Pakistani movie and brings out in vivid detail the challenges faced by Muslims both from radical fundamentalism and the Western war on terror. It has a great soundtrack, to boot.
February 10, 2009 5:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 10, 2009 17:20
Unfortunately, Israel has never viewed its enabling of the massacre as a "burden."
Ariel Sharon was held "indirectly responsible" for the massacre by an Israeli commission, yet Israelis happily elected him as prime minister two decades later.
And then a month ago, they inflicted another massacre in Gaza where every relief and human rights agency say war crimes have been committed.
It is therefore dishonest to pretend that one artist's work is somehow an act of national "contrition" or "introspection" when the rest of the Israeli nation is happily cheering on more atrocities against the people it has ethnically cleansed.
February 10, 2009 3:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 10, 2009 15:32