. There's the "lettuce" argument -- we'll be paying $5/head (or starving) if we don't have illegal aliens working in the fields. As Phil Martin, ag economist at UC Davis shows, the field labor cost in a $1 head of lettuce is about 6 cents. Triple those wages and Americans will do the jobs. (They're not career positions. They're seasonal jobs for young people, starting in the world of work. I have did similarly menial jobs.) And you'll be paying 10% more for lettuce and other produce. Do you spend $1,000/year on produce? OK, you'll pay $100 more.

The lettuce argument also parallels that for the retention of slavery.

There's the "everyone's an immigrant except for the 'Native Americans'" argument. Well, the American Indians didn't sprout from the land, they came across the Bering land bridge from Asia. So if the criterion is "You're an immigrant if you had an ancestor who immigrated here," then American Indians are immigrants, too.

In that case, "immigrant" is no longer a useful word, since EVERYONE's an immigrant.

There's the "the U.S. stole the southwest" argument. Well, the land in dispute was "owned" by Spain for a couple of centuries. Then by Mexico for about 25 years. During these periods, there weren't more than a few thousand Spaniards or Mexicans in the entire territory. It's been owned by the U.S. for about 160 years now, much longer than Mexico's reign. And the U.S. has actually done something with the land, made it habitable for tens of millions. As Robert Kaplan has described, the difference between American and Mexican "twin cities" straddling the border is like night and day, yet the land is obviously the same. It's not the dirt that's important, it's the people. Put another way, if culture didn't matter, Mexico and Central America would be paradise.

There's the "illegal aliens pay tons of taxes" argument. Sure, they all pay real estate taxes (in rent) and sales taxes (most states). Those working on the books (typically using stolen Social Security numbers) pay FICA and, perhaps, income taxes. But they're mostly ill-educated and low-skilled and pay very low taxes connected to their working -- in fact, most claim the Earned Income Tax Credit, i.e. negative income tax! If a family with both parents working has two kids in school, that's at least $15k/year just for schooling, way more than the taxes on, say, $35k/year aggregate income.

Robert Rector at the Heritage Foundation has done the systematic accounting on all this. A typical household headed by a low-skilled illegal alien is a net drain of about $20k/year for the rest of us, year after year. (Low-skilled Americans are a similar burden, but they're part of the national family, not gate crashers from other societies.)

There's the "illegal immigration is bad, but legal immigration is terrific" argument. Nope. If that were the case, legalizing (i.e. amnestying) the illegal aliens would solve the problem. But they'd still be (on average) low-skilled workers whose burden on the rest of us would continue. In fact, once legal they'd be able to access more public benefits programs, so their cost to the rest of us would actually rise substantially.

In short, most of the problems of mass illegal immigration are shared by mass legal immigration.

Finally, I offer my distilled observations of what mass immigration is doing to our country based on living in southern California

The flood of immigrants drives wages and living conditions in our central cities toward those of the Third World.

- The influx imposes both sprawl and gridlock on our metropolitan areas.

- Immigrant families needing services overwhelm our schools, taxpayer-funded health care facilities, and other public agencies.

- Those requiring services don’t assimilate and, instead, expect to be served in their native languages.

- American civic culture frays as each ethnic group establishes its own grievance lobby and pushes for preferences.

- Communicable diseases such as tuberculosis (new, drug-resistant strains) return.

- Shortages of water and other resources loom, especially in immigration-blitzed Southwest.
Most that come across our open borders come from countries where, Crime, Corruption, Poverty, Misery, Anti-education, and hate for Americans has existed for centuries and is normal. Should anyone be surprised they bring those same family values across the border with them?

To put it bluntly without being PC the problem with Mexico is Mexicans. In hundreds of years the only type of society you have been able to build is a Cesspool of Crime, Corruption, Poverty, Misery and Cruelly! Look at you sports, Bull fighting, Horse tripping, Dog Fighting, Cock fighting, boxing & of course rape is a great sport for the young men. Which you would think would hardly be necessary since sex is legal with 12 year old girls there. It would seem that would be enough like rape to satisfy even the most jaded! Not surprising as more of your Countrymen come to this country the more like Mexico we become! In the long run it is either good or desirable for us or the world to allow Mexico to turn this country into another Third World Country. If any more proof is required look at the Border cities, they are as different as night and day. Obviously the land is the same so how to explain the poverty on the Mexican side other than Mexican culture?

McCain, Heckabee, Hillary, Obama & the rest of the Democrats, plus Liberal Media and the rest of the open Border pro-illegal Aliens supporters professed & false compassion for Illegal Aliens is sicking. This Nation has 47 millions citizens without medical insurance, Million of our elderly chose between food and medicine every day. Millions of American children live in poverty with no chance at the American dream. Our vets. return from the war that came about by lies from Politicians without proper medical care or treatment. Yet they shower rewards on the Illegal Aliens, free medical, free schooling for their many children, no reward is too great or price to high for the American citizens to pay, for the ones that break our laws, invaded this country and demand their rights while waving the Mexican flag and Slaughtering, Raping and Robbing thousands of American Citizens each year.

The Corrupt Politicians and Liberal Media try to get the public to believe they are Compassion, & Wise for wanting open borders and amnesty. While American Citizens are racist & xenophobe if we request that our Constitution and Immigration laws be followed and enforced for all law breakers irregardless of race or nationally!

It is the money they get from business from supplying them slave labor with 20K worth of benefits paid each year by the tax payers and the Latino votes with the promise of millions more if we give them amnesty that they are really after.

If they really are Compassion and Caring there are Millions of American Citizens that have played by
the rules, payed their taxes, obeyed the laws, fought the wars and built this Nation that are in great need. The Politicians could use American Citizens to show their Compassion. But Compassion for American citizens or legal Immigrants does not get Money and Votes for our Corrupt lying Politicians.

Less face the truth Mexico has a official policy of offloading their Uneducated peons, criminals and other undesirables on the USA. They provide them documents and instruction in the form of funny papers (because many if not most cannot read) on how to avoid the border parole. How to get illegal documents and jobs in the USA. By off loading their uneducated peons, criminals and other undesirables on American taxpayers they avoid a revolution in Mexico and improve the standard of living while gaining billions in remittance back to Mexico. They play the race very effective and appeal to the Compassion of American citizens. In the long run maybe the most effective thing we could do for Mexico is deport every illegal Mexican in the USA. After having lived here and getting used to the standard of living here if we send back the 12 to 30 million back to Mexico they would demand a better, less corrupt government. It may require an revolution there but the end results hopefully would be a better country! Mexico as countries go is rich there is no reason they cannot do a better job in caring for their citizens.

In Spite of the soaring rhetoric and promises from our Presidential Candidates this Nation faces it most perilous times since WWII. Most of the Candidates are refusing to recognize or address problems that in time will destroy this nation!

We have an arrogant, incompetent, illiterate, and inept fool in the White House, a demoralized and decimated military, plundered treasury, trashed world standing, trampled rule of Law and Constitution. While the nation is sinking under an tidal wave of Uneducated Illegal Aliens waving the Mexican flag, demanding their rights, while feasting at the trough of Public Welfare, as they Kill, Rob, and Rape thousands of American Citizens each year. .

We as a nation can survive fools in our White House. What we CANNOT survive is fools both in our Congress and white house like Bush, McCain, Hillary, Obama, Kennedy, Reid, etc. & now they want to be President! Each promising a new American, rebuilding the middle class and taking care of the poor. But what they refuse to acknowledge or recognize is no single Nation or people is rich enough to lift the 100,s of millions of poor out of poverty. In others words American & American taxpayers cannot bear the cost of becoming the welfare state for Mexico and Latin American. To attempt to do so will only reduce all Americans to poverty equaling what the uneducated invaders are fleeing from in their home countries. The poor and criminals pouring across our Borders have an average of an six grade education. Each person with less than a high education is a net cost of 20k per year for American taxpayers. This applies to American citizens as well as the millions of Illegal Aliens. So the displaced compassion endorsed by Edwards, Obama, McCain, Hillary etc. is deeply flawed. Failure to close our border or to give Amnesty to the 12 to 30 millions of Illegal Aliens in this country will in the long run, with the Chain Immigration result in adding 100 to 160 millions poor citizens to our welfare rolls. Their high school drop out rates exceed 50 percent with a high crime rate and a very high illegitimate birth rate, the very combination that keeps Mexico & Latin American a cesspool of poverty & misery!

Maybe the results is what the multinational companies and the rich dream of, a Nation full of poor docile labors like China, India, Mexico so the rich can live like the kings of old and the rest can live like the peons in Mexico that are pouring across our borders, but I do not believe it is the future most Americans aspire to for their children and grand children!

In all, my country, a potential benefactor and beacon for all the world - is headed right off a cliff and to an third world status!

If the Politicians with the Citizens support, decide they must do more for the worlds poor then they must find a way like an Marshall plan for Latin American. What they must not be allowed to do, though flawed logic or by criminal intent is to turn this Nation into a Cesspool of Crime, Corruption, Poverty, and Misery by continuing the open borders policy and Amnesty for the millions pouring across our borders.

In my view - and in the view of many educated thinking Americans - this has all come to pass because the Politicians, the elected and sworn stewards of this country, have allowed it to happen. Surely they should have known better…when they refused to abide by the Constitution against invasion or enforce our laws they disgraced their oath of office. One way this Nation can start to recover is for the lot of them to be gone from those hallowed halls of Congress and the White House, because most of them have become a house of party-bound prostitutes paid by the special interests, swirling and partying, amidst the rubble of their own malfeasance - taking this Nation right down with them.

As a proud and concerned American that proudly served my Country in time of War as did my Father, my two brothers and my son. I am appalled and very angry at what self severing, stupid/corrupt politicians have done to my country!

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Why is it that our government cannot force Mexican and Latin American Governments to answer for their own actions towards their own citizens

Why is it that they are forcing people to flee their country just so these immigrants can have a hells chance at LIVING andpossibly help out their family as well. WHAT IN THE HELLARE THEY DOING TO THESE PEOPLE I THINK WE NEED TO FOCUSON FORCING THEIR GOVERNMENTS WAY OF GOVERNING OUT THE DOOR AND HELP THESE PEOPLE BECOME DEMOCRATIZED AND ALLOW FREE TRADE AND DECENT SANTITATION AND WHATEVER ELSE IS NEEDED SO THEY CAN STAY WITH THEIR FAMILYS AND PROSPER AND HAVE A DECENT CHANCE AT SOME SORT OF LIFE AND WITH HOPE AND PROMISE OF BETTERMENT. THATSWHAT WEARETRYINGTO DO FOR IRAQ RIGHT? WHEN IS IT LATIN AMERICA AND MEXICO'S TURN?

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I AM APPALLED @ HOW MANY MEXICAN'S HAVE MADE IT THROUGH THE BORDER OF MEXICO INTO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ... WHAT THESE MEN DID TO THOSE SMALL CHILDREN IN BRUTALLY RAPING THEM - I SAY DEATH PENALTY TO EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THESE CREEPS! ENOUGH AMERICA WE NEED TO FIND A WAY TO COMPLETELY CLOSE OUR BORDERS - MOST MEXICANS HAVE NOT EVEN APPLIED THROUGH OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS! I AM DISGUSTED AND SICK WHEN I READ AND HEARD ON THE NEW'S THAT THEY HAD RAPED THESE YOUNG CHILDREN ... ENOUGH ALREADY GET THE FREAKING MEXICANS OUT OF OUR COUNTY AND I DO MEAN NOW!

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Mistreated like they were not warned? Theres a reason the signs that say "do not enter" are in spanish also.

Hi all!

Very interesting information! Thanks!


G'night

I think there are many people who forget that Americans also move to Mexico (although they may not be illegally entering the country). I DON"T think that the many people who have retired in Mexico or are planning on retiring on Mexico will appreciate what our U.S. Government is doing to alienate Mexico!

To those who suggest that it's the duty of the United States to open its doors to people in need (of money I guess), why are you fighting so hard to let Mexicans into this country? Probably 90% of Africa is in much more dire need than Mexico, yet I don't hear anyone suggest a huge outreach program to solve Africa's problems by letting everyone there run away to the U.S. Which leads me to believe that most of those who make that argument do so disingenuously.

I'm all for immigration as long as it's legal and doesn't threaten to overwhelm us. This country can certainly benefit from the perspectives, talent and (some of the) values that foreign born people can bring. I simply do not want to have more than half of all the immigrants to this country coming from one country, the vast majority illegally. I don't give a damn what business wants, we've paid dearly for having our lower and lower-middle classes reduced to near second world status by the constant unregulated influx of cheap labor. Americans will do any job, you simply have to pay them fairly.

Sorry I spelled your name wrong ( not intended)

My comment was for J Kaas

I use to work with Mexicans ( you know, it was one of those jobs that Americans won't do, in a factory, it closed down, went over seas.) We tried to befriend these people, we talked about our families, our cultures, how we grew up, exchanged recipes. One day the bosses told them they could only speak Spanish at lunch and breaks. They became very angry. I told the ladies that I worked with that I could imagine how I would feel if I was in another country and I met someone that spoke my language and I could imagine it being nice to converse with them. I told them I didn't mind if they spoke Spanish when they wanted. This was the last time they spoke English! Every day from 7:00 to 3:30 all I heard was Spanish. My friends! The ones that I reached out to make welcome. And they use to make comments like "I bet you wish you knew what we are saying? Maybe we are talking about you". I was at the grocery store, next in line, had all my groceries on the counter, I look up here they are, just go straight to the front of the line. Back to me, didn't say a word. I said Excuse me, would you mind getting to the back of the line? The guy turned around and looked at me like I was crazy. He points to a couple going out the door with their buggy and says I'm with them. All the sudden this older guy comes running over telling me "yeah, we are his parents, he is with us". Like that gives him the right to just cut in line. Had he asked you know, My parents are leaving could I get in front of you, I would have said sure go ahead. Every time I come in contact with these people they are so rude. Don't go to a convenience store those Mexican men stand literally on your back. Now I know there is good in every race; but I haven't met the good ones here yet.

The apologists for Mexico would want us to believe that Mexicans love to share. Not true. Mexico has harsh and restrictive laws against immigrants and foreigners living in Mexico that make it very difficult if not impossible for immigrants and foreigners to buy a house or property or become a citizen of Mexico.

How ironic that apologists for Mexico say we should learn to share yet Mexicans don't want to share theirs?

Mexican government wants us to treat their illegal immigrants humanely, but look how barbaric the Mexicans rob and rape central and south America's migrants crossing Mexico's southern border.

As a mostly Native American, middle class, hard working, tax paying, college educated citizen of the US, it is getting extremely difficult for me to choke down any more crap from governments (ours or anyone else's)and opinionated idiots. Throughout history, peoples and nations have been conquered, invaded and exterminated. Nothing has changed. I think the peaceful, though socially embarassing, movement of Mexico's sons and daughters to the percievably bountiful US is nothing more than a nuisance and if ignorant Americans would take the time to get to know a few Mexicans and maybe even pick up a few phrases, this wouldn't be so difficult. As millions of mothers have said in the past, "Learn to share!"

When there are far more important issues in the world (global warming, Darfur, gas prices, corruption, Iraq, starvation - take your pick), why would we even spend one more minute on this silly subject? GROW UP!

BL wrote "This Nation will be inundated with 10,s of Millions of Prolific breeders." After posting a list of falsehoods.

Racism and lies. What a great combination! Last time we heard that was during the Civil Rights movement when the people like bl were trying to keep the colored folk in their place.

Got some bad news for you. The Mexicans are here to stay--at the express invitation of Big Business. You know you can't beat Big Business, so take your, well, let's be charitable and call them mistakes of fact, and get used to it.

The Mexican population perceive evil in the following order (those that force them to live in poverty): corrupt Mexican oligarchy ruling class, corrupt justice officials and law enforcers, corrupt government bureaucrats, illegal drugs trafficking cartels, criminals,...etc. and the so called "U.S. empire" is not even on top of their list.

If the Mexican government ruling elites couldn't or won't help the poverty stricken Mexican population, then Mexican people have the right to overthrow the corrupt Mexican oligarchy ruling class by revolution.

I also agree with Mr. Krauze's comments that the United States needs allies and probably more so than at any other time in its history. The U.S. is becoming more isolated and losing its influence all around the world. America can't afford to have the Mexican population perceive the U.S. as an "evil empire" the way so many other Latin American countries already do.

Although I think the Mexican government should be held accountable for providing more jobs, I don't think punishing hard-working people by sending them back to their countries is the answer.

If the United States wants to remain the world's dominant force, it will have to compromise its politics and views so that more people around the globe remain sympathetic with American values.

Otherwise, it will be China and the European Union dictating how the world is shaped and the United States will end up as a Second World Country with not a lot of influence.

mr goh, you said "I also contend that the non-racism of any attitude should not be judged vis a vis the existence of nation states. Rather, whether or not an attitude or statement is racist should be judged whether or not such an attitude presumes an individual's inferiority or superiority based solely upon race or national origin."

i, on the other hand, contend that (the eucharist aside) the twee redneck attitudes of the hordes both north and south of any boarder presumes and inferiority not just in the infinite mind of the viewer and the viewee, but also in the great unwashed masses looking in on the problem from another continent, equidistant both to and from the remote access locale co-terminal with any new upmarket racist ideology. furthermore, the dogmatic intervention of all racist elites since the days of the epic of gilgamesh have long foisted their opinions of entitlement upon those who would only work for 23 cents every given work day, no matter, like in the gospel of matthew, if they started their work in the early morning, or waited till well past a mamwich lunch. if we look past this more obvious example, we see the hegemony persists far into the subtleties of interconnectivity between nation states, like veins transisting to capillaries, and in that transfusion we see that third world economies are still up the creek without paddles or outboard motors, trying desperately to wage war with the long surf of the gulf of california, and maybe, after risking their own lives like the greek tragedians and those of their progeny either in the nest back at mazatlan or right there in the boat with them, they might crusade upon the vital shores of orange county, and rise wading in the effervescent surf as a conqueror king like Cuchullian, and only then will the gringos understand, that what they were able to take so easily at the point of a colt and build with the railroad-excreting colon of henry h. huntington, will be scrutinized and derided and lusted after by the lookers on, no matter how much pigment in their skin, or how many wives their religion permits them to take.

so much hate, so much fear, so much frustration, so few sensible suggestions ID and tax all immigrants, legal or illegal, make them pay tax to support Bush's Crusades and social security which the Republicans have raped to support the white baby boomers. Look for the money in this Americans - that is what we are best at. The core problem here is that America is afraid of Democracy - that one day legal Latinos will be in the majority and the tables will be turned on the whites.

The politics of Hate America is going on right now in the US Senate where those who hate America and support Illegal Aliens are in control and winning. They are winning by following the ancient roman notion of DIVIDE ET IMPERA (divide and rule). Instead of having an up or down vote on the entire Kennedy-Mahoney-McCain package, the floor managers are being successful feeding little bits into the mix one at a time. A battle between massed forces and forces fed into the battle piecemeal ALWAYS results in the massed forces slaughtering the forces fed into the battle piecemeal. The typically small-minded and short-sighted Senators opposing this 5 TRILLION dollar every decade boondoogle pork legislation simply seem unable to help each other defeat the entire bill by cooperating on the little bits being expertly fed into the mix. FINIS AMERICA

"GO South young man Go South, beyon the Border(s). As Prophecied and Promised Viva a La Mexican war Treaty???????!

ya Ya, Monroe Doctrine Is Gonna Rise Again! Eeeee Ha! Praise the Lord Holy NoMan ECLATi!

The most serious problem American Faces is not Terrorism but the Mass Invasion from Mexico. The Largest Invasion in World History is destroying our Schools, Medical Systems, Judicial System, and the Rule of Law, while Slaughtering, Raping & Robbing Americans by the 10,s of thousands. They are destroying our Social cohesion & turning us into a Cesspool of Crime, Corruption, Benefiting the Rich paid for by the poor & Middle Class! If this Amnesty is passed it will lead in time to Riots, Fires & Civil unrest on a scale greater than the 60,s and possibly Civil war!

Both Democratic and Republican administrations have ignored Article IV Section IV of our Constitution & our Laws that is supposed to protect this Country from Invasion! They have ignored our Constitution, Failed to enforce our Laws, and dishonored their Oath of Office

President Bush has not only ignored our Constitution & Laws he has Aided, Abided, Encouraged and Collaborated with a foreign government to Subvert our Constitution! To ignore our Constitution is grounds for Impeachment, to engage in Subverting our Constitution is Treason!

This Policy continues today even after the Wake-Up call of 9/11!

When you have Senators that are swore to Defend the Constitution & Uphold our Laws encourage Criminals to break them then you have Criminals for Politicians! When our Politicians that think our Constitution is just a damn piece of Paper & Laws are meant to be broken then we are headed down the Slippery Slope of Anarchy!

Illegal Aliens start by breaking the Law by Arriving Illegally using Forged Document and engaging in a wide range of Illegal Activities that would get an American Citizens Fined and in Jail.

If an American Citizen is caught driving without driver licenses or insurance they face heavy fines & possible lost of driving Privileges. Illegal Aliens on the other hand are usually released with no punishment! The same is true for identify thief and benefits using false SS cards & for a host of other Crimes that American Citizens would feel the full weight of the Law!

Our Politicians answer to these crimes is not to punish them, but to reward them!

Only someone that is Brain-dead would believe rewarding Criminals results in less Criminals or Crime!

People that start out by breaking the Laws & are Rewarded for doing so, have little respect or regard for any Laws & see this Nation and American Citizens as ripe for Plunder!

They take full advantage of every benefit they can get Legal or Illegally!

Illegal Aliens have an informal but highly effective net work to inform other Illegal Aliens where to get bogus documents & any new scams to get benefits illegally! Most Illegal Aliens works off the books & pays no taxes but still somehow gets an Earned Income tax credit ranging form 1500.00 to 3200.00 returned to them every year from American taxpayers!

Illegal Aliens arrive in this Country from Counties where rampant Crime and Corruption has been a way of life for Centuries, is it any wonder they bring those same Family Values across the Border with them and are busy creating the same type of environment in the USA!

They retain loyally to the Native Countries & Exploit the Compassion of Americans & the Corruption of our Politicians by using us & having nothing but contempt for a people & Nation that does not have the Political Will or Integrity in its Politicians to enforce our Laws & our Constitution against Invasion.

To put it bluntly & without being Politically Correct, Illegal Aliens & Many of our Politicians are Parasites & Criminals feasting on the backs of American Citizens!

Illegal Aliens seek not to build this Nation, but to use the fruits of Labor of Legal American Citizens that immigrated to this country legally & have in 230 years of Blood, Sweat, Tears, and Sacrifice built this Nation!

While the Illegal Invaders have built nothing but a Cesspool of Crime, Corruption, Poverty & Misery in their own Counties for the masses, but a Elite class of very Rich, and Corrupt for the few.

Could this be what many of our Politicians are hoping to Achieve here in the USA?

You hear our Politicians like Bush, Kennedy, Hillary, McCain, Reid, Spector, Brownback, and Martinez, that’s wants to give them Amnesty, only they are so dishonest they refuse to call it Amnesty! They talk about the Rule of Law & Amnesty in the same sentence. This is an Oxymoron of the first order!

We hear the same Politicians speaking of seeking Bipartisan support for a Comprehensive solution to Illegal Aliens which are code words for Amnesty without any means or intend to enforce the Laws or our Constitution & close our Borders, just like they did with the 1986 Amnesty!

They further obscure & confuse the issue with Political Spin & Lies by saying it is only 7 or 8 million when the best independent estimates of the Illegal population was 20 million years ago & we have 5 to 10 thousand more pouring across our borders every day since then.

They conveniently forget to inform American Citizens that each Illegal Alien granted citizenship has the option to bringing in 5 family members in a never ending chain, so at the very least we are talking about 60 million or so in the next 15 to 20 years, a more realistic number is probably 150 million or more.

This Nation will be inundated with 10,s of Millions of Prolific breeders. Citizens with an average of 6 grade education and a 50 percent school drop out rate to populate the gangs & welfare rolls.

This is the same thing that happens with the last Amnesty, only this time it is on a scale large enough to destroy this Nation and turn the USA into another Mexico!

What we really have is a club of Millionaires in the Senate & the Democrat party seeking to deceive American Citizens again & pass a Law to reward other Millionaires with an unlimited supply of 21 First Century slaves.

While they reward their selves with the votes from Latinos and money they receive from Corporations for destroying this Nation!

The intent is to exploit both the Illegal Aliens for their Cheap Labor and the Poor & Middle class American Citizens as victims of the Illegal Alien’s crime, deteriorating standard of living and the 100,s of billions in welfare costs!

While the users of the Illegal Aliens Labor laugh all the way to the bank with their obscene profits! They get richer while the rest sink into Poverty! In Bush’s term in office 5.4 million more American Citizens have slipped into poverty l & if they succeed in this Amnesty, American will become a Nation of Poverty with the Rich, Elite and Corrupt ruling and the rest is slaving for pennies like the Peons in Mexico!

If this Amnesty is passed is anything like the Senate version as currently written, it will result in harm to this Nation almost beyond ones imagination!

The last Amnesty resulted in the largest increase in Crime and Welfare of any bill ever passed & compared to this Amnesty it was minuscule.

Illegal Aliens as percentage of population & the ones given Citizenship by the last Amnesty contribute more too both Crime & Welfare, than any other group in the USA!

So you be the judge of what the results of next Amnesty will be & the harm it will do!
.
The press is as guilty as the Politicians in trying to foster off this massive Amnesty bill on the American Public. They continue to refer to the Mass Invasion of Illegal Aliens as Immigrants which could not be further from the truth.

They fail to point out the harmful impact of the last Amnesty in 1986.

None report what the detrimental affects will be to our Population, Standard of living, Crime, Environment, Welfare or a host of other problems with the Senate bill!

Many Nations have tried to build a great Nation on the Back of Slaves, all have failed. If this were not so Mexico & other third world Nations would be rich instead of poor!

For anyone that has never lived in an third country & experienced the horrible conditions & do not understand what will happen to this Country if the Senate Amnesty is passed go visit the interior of Mexico, there you will see the future of this Nation!

We, as American Citizens owe & have the duty to prior generations that built this country at great personal sacrifice & to future generations, to rise up in protest from coast to coast and tell our Corrupt Politicians, No Not Again!

fxtrader77:
To Krystof-
Your attempt to equate the so called "Iron Curtain" with the right of any nation to secure it's borders in a way it deems necessary is both laughable and fallacious. There is no valid comparison between the two.

ANS:
No my dear friend actually the comparison is, but not in a way that you are insinuating it. In addition, what do you knew about the borders in Eastern Europe any way. By the way, I am not condemning the right of the USA to secure its borders of this republic. Actually only implying that perhaps large number of troops to be deployed as an emergency measure to control the crisis. on the border USA & Mexico.
This to be done in large-scale maneuver just as it was done by Soviet Bloc or the department of INS will hire 250 000 to 500 000 new border guards to deal with this immigration exodus.. This will do the
Job to control the borders of the USA. The current Immigration bill is a joke most law makers
do not know what they voting for, they haven’t read the documents they have not done the
Homework as they should have.
Thanks for attention Krystof

If the USA did this to Mexico they would take action, but we are so PC & Corrupt we let Mexico use a bunch of illiterate Peons with a average 6 grade education take this Nation & make the tax payers pay them for turning this country into another Third World Cesspool!
1. Did the United States violate the sovereignty and borders of Mexico by encouraging, aiding, & assisting 20 million of their most undesirable illiterate American peasants to cross the border illegally?
2. Did American send 128 Billions worth of drugs each year across the Mexican Borders to Destroy Millions of Mexican lives?
3. Did illegal American Citizens in Mexico, kill nearly 10 thousands Mexicans each year & Rob, Rape & Assault 10,s of thousands more?
4. Did American illegal aliens engage in wholesale forgery of vital public documents and commit identity theft in order to secure employment, education, credit, and access to public services?
5. Did American illegal aliens feed at the public trough for health care, education, food, housing and other vital services to which they were not entitled, and which cost Mexican taxpayers hundreds of billions of pesos each year?
6. Did the impact of serving American illegal aliens force scores of medical facilities into bankruptcy, resulting in the loss of vital medical services for Mexican citizens?
7. Did American illegal aliens who refused to pay for medical services manage to send $30 billion a year back to the United States?
8. Did American illegal aliens refuse to learn Spanish, and demand that Mexico provide services in English at considerable cost to Mexican citizens & to their Culture?
9. Did the children of American illegal aliens slow down and otherwise impede the education of Mexican children because of language and cultural issues & add Billions to the Education cost & Dummy down the Mexicans Children Education?
10. Did American illegal aliens demand driver's licenses despite being in Mexico illegally? Did they demand that driver instruction and testing materials be in English?
11. Did American illegal aliens demand the same reduced tuition rates offered to Mexican students there legally?
12. Did American illegal aliens vote in Mexican elections and alter election results?
13. Did American illegal aliens overwhelm Mexico's penal system, making it impossible to deal with the citizen inmate population?
14. Did the largest state in Mexico contract with another Mexican state for the housing and care of 15,000 inmates because of the impact of American illegal aliens?
15. Did American illegal aliens overwhelm Mexican hospitals, medical clinics, and emergency rooms and refuse to pay for medical services received?
16. Did American illegal aliens in Mexico in 1986 receive amnesty in an attempt by the Mexican government to end illegal migrations once and for all?
17. Did the Mexican government refuse to enforce the provisions of the amnesty, thereby causing the American illegal alien problem to grow seven times greater in the span of 20 years?
18. Did millions of American illegal aliens take to the streets to protest pending legislation in the Mexican congress that would tighten border security and enforce the nation's immigration laws?
19. Did American illegal aliens wave Old Glory and scream "Yes we can!" and "We are Mexico" & “everything for the “White race & nothing for the rest” in English as they marched to protest the rule of law in Mexico?
20. Did American illegal aliens cry "Racism" every time they were criticized for being in Mexico illegally or challenged to learn Spanish and assimilate into Mexican society?
21. Did Americans Politicians state Often & Openly they were going to take Mexico over? They way Mexican officials have in Mexico & La Raza the Mexican racist, hate Org in the USA has?
22. Did Mexico pay for over 300.000 American Anchor Babies born to Illegal Americans Citizens each year in Mexico & give the Babies Mexican Citizenship?
23. Did American drive millions of cars & trucks each day without driver Licenses or Insurance, clogging the roads, polluting the air & trashing the environment?
24. Did illegal Americans take Mexicans jobs & drive Mexico’s standard living down by 250 billions per year?
25. Did Americans Illegally in Mexico bred like Fruit Flies on a Viagra diet & make the Mexican Taxpayers paid for their medical bills & the 10,000.00 Average per year to send them to School at the expense of Mexican Children Education?
26. Did American Citizens Carry third diseases across the Border to Mexico and infect 10,s of thousands of Mexicans Citizens with disease resistance stains of TB & type A & B liver diseases from feces on food?
No American did not, Mexico did that & much more to American, and they dare to complain!
American is on the down hill race to Destruction! When you ignore the Constitution & Laws of the land to add Millions of Law Breaking, Fast breeding, Uneducated, Criminally Inclined, Welfare loving, Education hating citizens with hated of American & Loyally to a Foreign Nation then you are asking to be destroyed!
If Americans Politicians were not so Corrupt & Willing to sell this Nation & Americans Citizens out for Money & Votes the US Military would be on the Border with Guns Protecting this Nation from the Largest Invasion in History!

I am part of the crowd that believes Mexicans and the other Latinos that form the overwhelming majority of illegals here should go home and focus on improving their own countries. They have no connection with the US, not our customs, nor our culture, nor language, nor armed services. They are ill-equipped to live here -- criticizing Americans while behaving like hungry animals. Go home and leave us in peace.

If the USA did this to Mexico they would take action, but we are so PC & Corrupt we let Mexico use a bunch of illiterate Peons with a average 6 grade education take this Nation & make the tax payers pay them for turning this country into another Third World Cesspool!
1. Did the United States violate the sovereignty and borders of Mexico by encouraging, aiding, & assisting 20 million of their most undesirable illiterate American peasants to cross the border illegally?
2. Did American send 128 Billions worth of drugs each year across the Mexican Borders to Destroy Millions of Mexican lives?
3. Did illegal American Citizens in Mexico, kill nearly 10 thousands Mexicans each year & Rob, Rape & Assault 10,s of thousands more?
4. Did American illegal aliens engage in wholesale forgery of vital public documents and commit identity theft in order to secure employment, education, credit, and access to public services?
5. Did American illegal aliens feed at the public trough for health care, education, food, housing and other vital services to which they were not entitled, and which cost Mexican taxpayers hundreds of billions of pesos each year?
6. Did the impact of serving American illegal aliens force scores of medical facilities into bankruptcy, resulting in the loss of vital medical services for Mexican citizens?
7. Did American illegal aliens who refused to pay for medical services manage to send $30 billion a year back to the United States?
8. Did American illegal aliens refuse to learn Spanish, and demand that Mexico provide services in English at considerable cost to Mexican citizens & to their Culture?
9. Did the children of American illegal aliens slow down and otherwise impede the education of Mexican children because of language and cultural issues & add Billions to the Education cost & Dummy down the Mexicans Children Education?
10. Did American illegal aliens demand driver's licenses despite being in Mexico illegally? Did they demand that driver instruction and testing materials be in English?
11. Did American illegal aliens demand the same reduced tuition rates offered to Mexican students there legally?
12. Did American illegal aliens vote in Mexican elections and alter election results?
13. Did American illegal aliens overwhelm Mexico's penal system, making it impossible to deal with the citizen inmate population?
14. Did the largest state in Mexico contract with another Mexican state for the housing and care of 15,000 inmates because of the impact of American illegal aliens?
15. Did American illegal aliens overwhelm Mexican hospitals, medical clinics, and emergency rooms and refuse to pay for medical services received?
16. Did American illegal aliens in Mexico in 1986 receive amnesty in an attempt by the Mexican government to end illegal migrations once and for all?
17. Did the Mexican government refuse to enforce the provisions of the amnesty, thereby causing the American illegal alien problem to grow seven times greater in the span of 20 years?
18. Did millions of American illegal aliens take to the streets to protest pending legislation in the Mexican congress that would tighten border security and enforce the nation's immigration laws?
19. Did American illegal aliens wave Old Glory and scream "Yes we can!" and "We are Mexico" & “everything for the “White race & nothing for the rest” in English as they marched to protest the rule of law in Mexico?
20. Did American illegal aliens cry "Racism" every time they were criticized for being in Mexico illegally or challenged to learn Spanish and assimilate into Mexican society?
21. Did Americans Politicians state Often & Openly they were going to take Mexico over? They way Mexican officials have in Mexico & La Raza the Mexican racist, hate Org in the USA has?
22. Did Mexico pay for over 300.000 American Anchor Babies born to Illegal Americans Citizens each year in Mexico & give the Babies Mexican Citizenship?
23. Did American drive millions of cars & trucks each day without driver Licenses or Insurance, clogging the roads, polluting the air & trashing the environment?
24. Did illegal Americans take Mexicans jobs & drive Mexico’s standard living down by 250 billions per year?
25. Did Americans Illegally in Mexico bred like Fruit Flies on a Viagra diet & make the Mexican Taxpayers paid for their medical bills & the 10,000.00 Average per year to send them to School at the expense of Mexican Children Education?
26. Did American Citizens Carry third diseases across the Border to Mexico and infect 10,s of thousands of Mexicans Citizens with disease resistance stains of TB & type A & B liver diseases from feces on food?
No American did not, Mexico did that & much more to American, and they dare to complain!
American is on the down hill race to Destruction! When you ignore the Constitution & Laws of the land to add Millions of Law Breaking, Fast breeding, Uneducated, Criminally Inclined, Welfare loving, Education hating citizens with hated of American & Loyally to a Foreign Nation then you are asking to be destroyed!
If Americans Politicians were not so Corrupt & Willing to sell this Nation & Americans Citizens out for Money & Votes the US Military would be on the Border with Guns Protecting this Nation from the Largest Invasion in History!

Hum. Let's see. Mexican soldiers fire on U.S. Border Patrol Agents. Drug runners murder U.S. citizens. Millions of Mexican refugees from the violence, poverty and corruption of Mexico flee to the U.S. Once here, over half of the murders and violent crime is due to them. They cost the U.S. taxpayer over 1.5 trillion dollars a year. They take jobs from American's, willingly working 12 and 14 hour days for 6 to 8 and hour paid under the table.

Sounds an awful lot like Iraq to me. Sounds a lot like Somalia and Mymar and other hellish third world disasters. It's on our border, so it's time completely shut down our border. We want no part of the failed and miserable and corrupt state that is Mexico.

REgarding Mexico: Much of what I read here is true. So what? Self rationalization is preaching to a choir of one, your own gang. Perspectives are enriched by self searching and reaching out to walk in anothers shoes. Illegal immigration is both a boon and a bane in the US, depending on where you live. Dealing with the issue is an imbalance between a very legitimate need for sovereignty and border control on the one side and a humanitarian understanding that economic migrants are the norm in history. In the words of Thomas Freidman, we need a good fence with wide gates. However let us please get past the concept that the US stole the Western states from Mexico. These areas were frontier outposts interesting to the Spanish/ French elites that founded the small settlements as a buffer zone to protect the Mexican heartland from the Russians, British and Americans they thought would come down to expell them. There was precious little in the way of settled communities, it was mainly open frontier. America moved west, and yes with a deliberate concoisness of mastering the continent. But it took almost no force to do it. The Mexican Presidio in Monterey was beat with one cannon shot over the head of the Alcalde.

To MEXICANO:

If Mexicans can spend their energy making Mexico a better country instead of using their energy to make Mexico into another "North Korea" in order to hurt the United States, then Mexicans have a better chance of improving their living standard in Mexico.

To Mexicano:

You said: "you just can drop nuke on it, and make it the biggest nuclear waste land in the whole world."

You must be a Mexican with a sick mind. What kind of Mexican would wish his country to be bombed with a NUKE?

You said: "Let Mexico become even more corrupted or change the fake democracy we have into something more like north Korea. My point is what kind of neighbord do you want to have."

I can see Mexicans want to hurt America so much that they are willing to hurt themselves first to achieve that goal by turnint Mexico into North Korea.

What you have is not a solution but a threat. We will not be intimidated by your threat.

Now we can see very clearly Mexicans' evil intention toward the United States.

If our country is so evil - don't come here.
If our movies are so awful - don't watch them.
Don't eat at McDonald's.
Don't shop at Home Depot.
Don't drink Starbuck's coffee.
The NBA is a joke.

As blunt as this might seem it really is that simple. I personally, as an American, think our movies mostly stink too. I criticize a lot of what this country does politically. McDonald's is bad for you. Home Depot is a pathetic store and I won't be caught dead at a Starbuck's.

But, everytime I travel abroad I see more Starbuck's (they have them in Paris, of all places); I see more McDonald's; I see more NBA jerseys; and movie theatres are filled with American films - mostly with local language subtitles.

Hate us if you will - whoever you might be - but don't be hypocritical about it.

Andrew,

Interesting comment. But then it is no different than the Irish, or Italians (my ancestors) or any other group. People came to the US to escape poverty and try to make a life for themselves. It is nothing new, and it won't stop. The same thing is happening in Europe. People move from where they can't work and support a family to where they can. Welcome to the real world.

Mr. Goh!

It strikes me as strange that you would charactierize me as a radical. After all, I just want to see those that break the law punished - not a radical concept, unless, of course, you are a liberal. To be honest with you, we should probably just round the illegals up and evict them without ever allowing them back. But, alas, I too have a heart. While that would be adhering to the letter and spirit of the law, I actually believe that we should be lenient and allow them to petition our government for, wait, wait,(here comes my radical view) a temporary worker visa. You know, the kind we give to people from the rest of the world when they wish to come here legally and work.

As for your attempt at the philosophy of law-writing, let me break it down for you... In this country we have what is commonly refered to as a Republic. Contrary to popular belief we are NOT a Democracy. In a Republic, we elect representatives to speak for us. One can debate endlessly about whether or not they actually do that, but suffice it to say, when dealing with a 300 million+ population, our system works pretty well. Do bad laws make it to the books? Sure, but that is subjective. Take Roe vs. Wade as an example, I think killing an unborn child is a crime against all that it is to be human. Others think it is a natural right of every woman. Am I right? Maybe, maybe not. The good news is that every now and then we reverse those bad laws because we are a moral society with a collective conscience. And I even include liberals in that description.

As for your place of employment, I am not sure what the CBP bureau is (in DHS), but it sounds pretty important. Although, if one takes into account the disaster of mismanagement that is the DHS, it kinda' brings your statement down a peg or two. And to think, despite descriptors like "Kafkaesque" and using Latin words "ad hominem" (who talks that way anyway?), I was actually starting to like you. Ah well, back to my copy of "Moral Man, Immoral Society"...

Well I have the solution for everybody in the whole continent . ;)

Let Mexico become even more corrupted or change the fake democracy we have into something more like north Korea. Even better get a Hugo Chavez kind of president Dictator ( Lopez Obrador ) and just sell more drugs to America and imports all the weapons we get in the black market.

I mean why inverting in Mexico, we you just can drop nuke on it, and make it the biggest nuclear waste land in the whole world.

My point is what kind of neighbord do you want to have.

Tschüss Gringos

a very little mexican

Mr. Goh!

It strikes me as strange that you would charactierize me as a radical. After all, I just want to see those that break the law punished - not a radical concept, unless, of course, you are a liberal. To be honest with you, we should probably just round the illegals up and evict them without ever allowing them back. But, alas, I too have a heart. While that would be adhering to the letter and spirit of the law, I actually believe that we should be lenient and allow them to petition our government for, wait, wait,(here comes my radical view) a temporary worker visa. You know, the kind we give to people from the rest of the world when they wish to come here legally and work.

As for your attempt at the philosophy of law-writing, let me break it down for you... In this country we have what is commonly refered to as a Republic. Contrary to popular belief we are NOT a Democracy. In a Republic, we elect representatives to speak for us. One can debate endlessly about whether or not they actually do that, but suffice it to say, when dealing with a 300 million+ population, our system works pretty well. Do bad laws make it to the books? Sure, but that is subjective. Take Roe vs. Wade as an example, I think killing an unborn child is a crime against all that it is to be human. Others think it is a natural right of every woman. Am I right? Maybe, maybe not. The good news is that every now and then we reverse those bad laws because we are a moral society with a collective conscience. And I even include liberals in that description.

As for your place of employment, I am not sure what the CBP bureau is (in DHS), but it sounds pretty important. Although, if one takes into account the disaster of mismanagement that is the DHS, it kinda' brings your statement down a peg or two. And to think, despite descriptors like "Kafkaesque" and using Latin words "ad hominem" (who talks that way anyway?), I was actually starting to like you. Ah well, back to my copy of "Moral Man, Immoral Society"...

Mexicans hate America for the same reason ugly girls hate cheerleaders...sheer jealousy. They know that THEIR country will never, ever, ever, be as good as America.

They KNOW that their fellow Mexicans don't have the moral fortitude to obey they law...any law. Just look at how they act in their OWN country. Graft, corruption, illegal businesses, drug cartels supported by an indifferent citizenry, and filth everywhere. Heck, they can't even bring themselves to obey the few traffic safety laws they have, or maybe I should call them "traffic safety suggestions", since everyone ignores them anyway.

They have no self-respect OR self-control. They indiscriminately birth hordes of offspring that they KNOW they can't afford to feed, educate, or house. But they keep on pushing 'em out despite their inability to provide for their existing children. Why would they do such a thing? Selfishness? Stupidity? Ignorance? Maybe they don't even know. Maybe they don't care. Maybe because they DO know that they are an ignorant, immoral, and poor country...and they will ALWAYS be ignorant, illiterate and plainly too lazy to improve THEMSELVES or their situation.

But they have plenty of energy to whine about the gringos (who DO educate their 2.3 children, who DO start legal businesses, and who DO keep themselves and their properties tidy). Maybe if they had more self-respect, more ambition, and the desire to better their OWN country...they wouldn't have to break into ours, all the while whining about how horrible we are to want ONLY people who respect us, our laws, our sovereignty, and our ideals.

Mexicans hate us because we're pretty and they aren't

pacifikawv wrote:

"....Uprooting communities and separating parents from their American children is not in line with our family values."

Fortunately it isn't our family values that we use to make these decisions but our national values, one of the most critical being the rule of law.

"Declaring that “anything less than forced deportation is amnesty” is akin to making dismemberment the only acceptable punishment for taking extra Post-it Notes for the office supply closet. “Gestapo” strategies are not acceptable approaches to the immigration crisis. Small fines can be meaningful punishment for those who may have skirted deficient immigration policies, but rounding up every undocumented person or otherwise forcing them to flee the country is simply not realistic or in line with any sense of moral or social justice we share as a nation."

I'm not sure who is declaring that anything less than forced deportation is amnesty. Not even Tom Tancredo suggests this. Even if we did expend an enormous effort deporting every illegal we could get our hands on it would not approach the harshness of a tortured death sentence for petty theft. No one is going to be killed for being repatriated to Mexico, and shame on you for invoking the gestapo. That might work on Democratic Underground or wherever you find your fellow ditto-heads, but has no place in a reasoned discussion.

Just as fine of $10 is not going to be a sufficient disincentive for the thief that steals a $1000 dollars at a time, our current legal regime is completely inadequate to enforce our immigration laws. I'm a firm supporter of a national ID card which would use biometric data in order to assure that we know just who is working in this country. As most illegals are economic refugees this should put a big dent in their reason for being here and therefore should slow the tide of incoming while thinning numbers of those already here.

Vidusa said:

"Once we realize that the black line drawn on a map is pointless and irratioinal, the better both nations would be."

As meaningless and irrational as the deed to your house, the center line on the highway or your right to free speech. Either we have the right to govern ourselves (which of course means making rules that apply to others as well) or we don't.

Remember, it is Mexico's responsibility to care for their citizens, not ours.

It is absurd to say we need to "start thinking about ways to raise the standard of living in Mexico."

It is the Mexican ruling class who need to start thinking how to improve the living standard for their citizens.

MONTY KEELING: "We need to forget about spending millions trying to keep Mexicans from crossing the border and start thinking about ways to raise the standard of living in Mexico."

What about the Mexican government's responsibility to raise the living standard of their citizens in Mexico?

It is shameful for the Mexican oligarchy ruling class to neglect their responsiblity to improve the living standard of their fellow Mexicans.

Maybe the corrupt Mexican elites ruling class should stop building their happy lives on the misery of their poverty stricken Mexican citizens.

It is the total failure of the corrupt Mexican leadership that caused the low living standard in Mexico.

If your family is poor what are you going to do, try to reorganize your government (right) are hot foot it across the border so your family can be better off as soon as you find a job. The truth and the reality of the situation is that the United States and Mexico, because of the great number of Hispanics living here, both have a shared interest in Mexico's welfare. Within the next 50 years the population of the U.S. will be 50 percent Hispanic. We need to forget about spending millions trying to keep Mexicans from crossing the border and start thinking about ways to raise the standard of living in Mexico. Maybe making Mexico part of the U.S. isn't such a bad idea after all.

I can't help but wonder what might happen if several thousand US citizens decided to illegally enter Canada or Switzerland, work illegally in various jobs and then demand the Canadian or Swiss government for "rights" and services.

Put a different perspective on the immigration "debate"

To quote Leopold: "The Mexican border crossing dilemma is Mexico's own creation,and in my opinion, a testament to the ineptitude and indolence of the Mexican ruling class that prefers to exile its citizens rather than take the necessary actions to improve their standard of living and related opportunities for a better life."

To Krystof-

Your attempt to equate the so called "Iron Curtain" with the right of any nation to secure it's borders in a way it deems necessary is both laughable and fallacious. There is no valid comparison between the two.

What you advocate is shameless hooliganism from the Mexican ruling elites. Just like Alberto Gonzales way of saying to the American people: "You can't make me resign".

Mexico must take responsibility for improving the living standard of their citizens. It's Mexico's responsibility, not Americans' responsibility.

Mexico, in principle, cannot stop anybody from leaving the country; that's against mexican law and, in general, that's against the freedom doctrine that's been very well advertised by the US throughout modern history. To the best of my knowledge, back in the 80s Eastern Germany forbid its citizens to leave the country, and the entire western world led by the US strongly condemned this ("Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" Ronald Reagan).

I hope I made my point, Mexico cannot, not in any way, nor by any direct on indirect legal measure, stop anybody from leaving the country.

I find it very strange when the American people demand that "Mexico should do more to reduce poverty". Well, how do you do that?... (I hear the crickets in the background)... this is a question that has been asked for thousands of years in human history and so far there has never been a clear answer to it. Many economic models have been put in practice and many people have managed to improve their situation; but at the end of the day the social status remains: rich and middle as the minority and poor as the majority of the population... and the poor crosses the border.

Given the fact that Mexico is not legally entitled to stop people from leaving the country and that it is really really a tall order to reduce poverty in Mexico and in any other country for that matter I guess the conclusion is simple:

Illegal immigration into the US is a problem of the US and the US alone. By the same token, whatever decision the US makes on immigration, is a decision to be made by the US and the US alone... and the consequences and responsibility of this decision, is also to be faced by the US and the US alone.

When will the Mexicans stop violating the human rights of Guatemalan and all other migrants crossing Mexico's southern border?

When will Mexicans (especially Mexican police and border guards) stop robbing migrants and raping women crossing Mexico's southern border?

When will the Mexicans stop kidnapping Americans travelling in Mexico?

Mexican families risk their lives in the hope they can help their villages and families. From my perception the identity is very local. In the same vein, the Mexican wealthy and upper middle class, don't appear to care about much but themselves and their best interests.

Here's the reality: Mistreated in the U.S. and mistreated in Mexico, but in the US it might be possible to get a head and secure a secondary school education and basic health care.

I think the Mexican government is very clever in promoting illegal immigration and the US Federal government equally clever in not enforcing the laws and looking aside so that business owners can benefit from cheap labor. For that matter, we all benefit from it!

This is a situation in which we all have to stop pretending that it's the other guy's fault or problem. It is everybody's problem.

As for human rights on the Guatemalan border...Mexicans are amongst the worst abusers.

All these people posting comments about how Mexico should treat its people better so they won't come to the US are missing--or ignoring--two important points. First, the US bears some responsibility for Mexico's economy not being better. We dump (and I use this term in the international trade sense) heavily subsidized agricultural products on the Mexican markets. US exports of subsidized corn have devastated Mexican farmers. They cannot compete with our heavily-subsidized welfare farmers, so they go out of business. Guess where they go? Right here, to work on the very farms that drove them out of business. And corn is not an isolated instance. If we want to help Mexico develop its economy, we need to stop damaging it first.

Second, the Mexicans here illegally are here at the express invitation of US business. They are here ONLY because they know American business will hire them. Look at where they work: agriculture, construction, food services, hospitality services (hotels, etc), and janitorial services. The American business leaders hiring them know full well they are here illegally. Any American upset about illegal immigration should direct their complaints to the US Chamber of Commerce, the Farm Bureau, and all the other US business associations. Do you whiners have the courage to do this? If not, shut up and stop wasting our time.

Hire them and they will come. It's as simple as that.

The self-righteous rantings about the responsibility of Mexico to protect the America from American business are nothing but hot air. It's like us telling Columbia to stop cocaine production while abandoning prosecuting drug users. An exercise in futility.

And finally, as for being here illegally, why don't you self-righteous whiners put yourself in the shoes of the Native Americans. We are here illegally. Just ask the Seminoles, the Cherokee, the Apache, the Iroquois, and every other tribe about people moving in illegally.

Why a million American troops? Are you crazy? The whole discussion is in the direction of getting the Mexicans taking control of their national economy from the hands of those few corrupt Mexican oligarchs maifa!

If the oppressed Mexican people can start a revolutiion to overthrow their corrupt and oppressive Mexican oligarchy ruling class, I will be the first American to bring my gun to help them fight the mafia Mexican oligarchs ruling class.

The only way and a viable way to stop the mass exodus from Mexico to US is to put half to one million troops on the border. The troops would seal off the border and the action would look just like it was on the border between East and West. To all that divide was known as Iron Curtain in the middle of Europe.
Do the Americans want that to take place?

To quote Leopold: "The Mexican border crossing dilemma is Mexico's own creation,and in my opinion, a testament to the ineptitude and indolence of the Mexican ruling class that prefers to exile its citizens rather than take the necessary actions to improve their standard of living and related opportunities for a better life."

Corruption is Mexico has been a way of life for the past 80 years. Legislature, state govenors, military, police - (federal-state-local-tourist-military and traffic cops),and drug barons with private armies. The Mexican lower classes are treated like scum. Mayan Guatelamans are virtually disposable animals. The ruling oligarchy will tolerate anything as long as they get a slice of the profits -Banks,hotels,tourism, petroleum and anything related to them. U.S. business will pay $10.00 an hour here vs. $4.00 a day in Mexico and still make money. The country smells like pre-revolution 1910. The ghosts of Zapata and Villa are still haunt Chiapas and El Norte. Hold on, people, things are going to get interesting.

Corruption is Mexico has been a way of life for the past 80 years. Legislature, state govenors, military, police - (federal-state-local-tourist-military and traffic cops),and drug barons with private armies. The Mexican lower classes are treated like scum. Mayan Guatelamans are virtually disposable animals. The ruling oligarchy will tolerate anything as long as they get a slice of the profits -Banks,hotels,tourism, petroleum and anything related to them. U.S. business will pay $10.00 an hour here vs. $4.00 a day in Mexico and still make money. The country smells like pre-revolution 1910. The ghosts of Zapata and Villa are still haunt Chiapas and El Norte. Hold on, people, things are going to get interesting.

Corruption is Mexico has been a way of life for the past 80 years. Legislature, state govenors, military, police - (federal-state-local-tourist-military and traffic cops),and drug barons with private armies. The Mexican lower classes are treated like scum. Mayan Guatelamans are virtually disposable animals. The ruling oligarchy will tolerate anything as long as they get a slice of the profits -Banks,hotels,tourism, petroleum and anything related to them. U.S. business will pay $10.00 an hour here vs. $4.00 a day in Mexico and still make money. The country smells like pre-revolution 1910. The ghosts of Zapata and Villa are still haunt Chiapas and El Norte. Hold on, people, things are going to get interesting.

Corruption is Mexico has been a way of life for the past 80 years. Legislature, state govenors, military, police - (federal-state-local-tourist-military and traffic cops),and drug barons with private armies. The Mexican lower classes are treated like scum. Mayan Guatelamans are virtually disposable animals. The ruling oligarchy will tolerate anything as long as they get a slice of the profits -Banks,hotels,tourism, petroleum and anything related to them. U.S. business will pay $10.00 an hour here vs. $4.00 a day in Mexico and still make money. The country smells like pre-revolution 1910. The ghosts of Zapata and Villa are still haunt Chiapas and El Norte. Hold on, people, things are going to get interesting.

Sr. Krauze,

I may sound like a traitor but i'd like to express my feelings.

Everybody knows some of the American pliticians are known for being extremely corrupt (Mr. Bush is the biggest one). But certainly, regarding the illegal immigration issue, we , as Mexicans, shouldn't be playing the victim.

As far as I know, Mexican authorities "do their job" (corruption, robbery, bribing, extortion, human smuggling, sexual assault...) at the Guatemalan border.

HOW CAN WE DARE TO ASK FOR SOMETHING THAT WE CANNOT EVEN OFFER????

Law is law!! This simple short word, even in Spanish (Ley), is the key.Let's just leave this paternalism we're stucked in and work it out (by ourselves).

Difficult??? Perhaps... BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

Regards.
L. Zacatenco

What it boils down to is this: Employers (mostly Republican) want cheap, compliant, and fearful labor; Democrats want cheap voters, people who will vote for candidates who promise "entitlements" to voters; corrupt Mexican elites want to keep the unjust status quo in Mexico. Where does all of this leave the American worker and the American taxpayer? You guess it: Shafted. Where does this leave the American nation? Yup, you guessed it again: Ruined. And the Mexican elites? Highly pleased.

Although most Americans are intensely proud of the fact that hundreds of millions of people across the earth want to come to America, illegal immigration is both immoral and politially unacceptable. The issue, however, isn't immigration; it's forced illegal immigration. The deep, pervasive corruption throughout Mexican society makes it unlikely that the elites will even attempt any reform. (If you have ever met any of the "rulers" of Mexico, you truly know just how corrupt and indolent they are. Spoiled and pampered. Almost no exceptions. Virtually none.) The only hope for the typical peon is to get to America (joining countless millions of fellow immigrants in avoiding the paradise of Cuba). All that this does, however, is let the corrupt Mexican elites off the hook and place absolutely crushing burdens on American prisons, schools, hospitals, pensions, and overall infrastructure, given the fact that few Mexican immigrants have even a high school education and can never come even close to paying enough taxes for what they and their families consume in taxes. The more poverty Mexico exports, the less it has to deal with. BTW, how does Mexico treat illegal immigrants who come from, say, Guatemala? Anyone know?

I have visited Mexico and I thank God I live on the American side of the border.

Mexico is a land of savage uncivilized people where the privileged few Mexican ruling elites enjoy their luxury built on the misery of their poverty stricken fellow Mexican citizens.

As a Mexican, nothing makes me sadder than a government that far from trying to improve the quality of living in the country, is lobbying for citizens to migrate and stay abroad. Many years of indoctrination and movies have taught people in Mexico that migrants are mistreated when they come to the US. Why is that they keep coming then? It is because whatever they find here is more welcoming than what they found at home. I can say that without a doubt the US has to be one of the most welcoming countries for foreigners in the entire world. Due to my line of work, I have talked to people from all nations and they all coincide that the US is far ahead from others in accepting people from other cultures. Mexicans in their own land suffer discrimination and are victims of exploitation in ways that are probably worse than anything they face in the US.

Mexicans have to realize that the worst demons that haunt the country come from within. Why should a government push for a reform and have its citizens migrate instead of providing them with the opportunities to thrive in their own land? Why would this increase the sentiment against the US? Krauze calls it the pander in Washington, but these notions are the product of the same occurring in Mexico. For many years Mexicans have believed that the US has been instrumental in the deterioration of the country’s economy, especially with tough economic policies like the ones imposed with the Washington Consensus. The truth is, that none of the big crisis that Mexico has had would have occurred if the representatives of the Mexican people would have stood up to the plate and represent their own. I cannot help but feel sympathy for my fellow countrymen, and I sure get outraged when they are victims of abuse (more so if this occurs in a foreign land). However, every Mexican needs to realize that most of our problems come from within, and in order to solve them, we need to make them our own.

Chrissy,
"American businesses often view illegal immigrants as modern day slaves" First off, to say somebody is a slave and yet pay them and allow them to go home is a bit extreme and an insult to, well, actual slaves. But your point about employers having leverage and having substantially more control over illegal workers is good.

Bluemeanies,
By signing the guestbook, that was meant for both migrant workers as well as people wishing to immigrate. I agree that immigration policy needs a major overhaul and that 22 years is a long time. The guest worker program needs more resources and revamping also. That said, why penalize the people who actually wait the 22 years by letting illegals become citizens earlier? That does not strike me as fair. No matter how streamline you make paperwork, you still cannot encourage illegal immigration or we will continue to have these problems.

Vidusa,
Blaming NAFTA is convenient but is it what is causing illegal immigration? Consider this, until 1986, the United States had never forgiven the act of illegal immigration in other than individual cases and had never rewarded large numbers of illegal aliens with the opportunity for U.S. citizenship. Maybe this is an enticement to come here illegally. NAFTA went into effect 1/1/1994 and any effects were probably not felt for a few years. In 1986 there were an estimated 5 million illegal aliens, most of which were granted amnesty. Those were replaced and the number grew back to 5 million by 1996. There have been several other amnesty programs since then. Other than that, the US economy has been fairly good to great since Reagan. NAFTA may be a contributor but it is nowhere near the only reason for illegal immigration.

Very few ordinary Mexicans are anti-American in any way, even if they cannot fathom why the US sticks its neck out for no valid reason. Even career anti-imperialists must suppose it would be easier for Tio Sam to seize Venezuelan or (yikes)Mexican oil, rather than try to subdue Iraqis. The US fight in Iraq has not yielded oil or security.

Outright legalization or any Mexican who goes to the US would not change intellectuals' suspicions or fulminations against the Coloso del Norte. Some would dread any quid pro quo. In particular, workers of PEMEX, CFE, and other bastions of state employment would decry competition from US oil or electric companies.

Oh, if universal humanitarian sentiment underlies the urge for immigrant amnesty, why not give equal status to new visas from all applicants worldwide? Why not let in China and India too? Ay, pero eso es otra cosa, ¿no?

Any interim surplus in immigrants' benefits received compared to payroll deductions is more than offset in medicaid benefits, plus benefits received by US born children. In addition, the kids can sponsor their parents and grandparents, whether or not they ever paid a penny into the system. Any pledge to keep them off the public dole is forgotten and many will collect social security.

Mexico will not soon generate heaps of jobs, no matter what. Americans who decry Mexico's corruption or allege its elites are stingy should be asked, "Compared to where?"

One good swap might be to send retiring US boomers south of the border, where they can employ Mexican real estate developers, builders, and service providers. Might Mexico revise its constitution to allow aging gringos to buy bits of oceanfront property?

I am always amazed at the chutzpah of people who say that the United States is evil for defending it's southern border in much the same way that Mexico defends it's own southern border, or that we are arrogant for demanding the same kind of rule of law around our border that Mexico expects for its own border. If you are in illegal immigrant into Mexico from Latin America you get treated much more harshly than you do if you are in illegal immigrant into the United States from Mexico. So when people from Mexico decry my country for doing the exact same thing that Mexico does, I laugh at you with open derision!

As for those posters who want more U.S. investment in Mexico -- check your facts! More than 2600 U.S. companies have operations there, and account for nearly 60% of all foreign investment (some $12 billion in 2005). If the legal system and the Mexican government were better trusted, I'm sure this number would be even higher. Exports to the U.S. accounted for nearly 25% of Mexico's GDP, and we bought some 85% of all its exports. The U.S. is surely doing its share to help build the Mexican ecnomoy. It is the corrupt stewardship of the Mexican government that keeps Mexico on its knees!

Trust me when I tell you that the joke that is the government of Mexico breeds resentment in this country. You pistol whip illegal immigrants on your southern border, and you aid and abet the movement of illegal immigrants across our southern border. Yet you call us wrong! Your government is corrupt and inept, and a danger to my country. I resent your hypocrisy sir!

CHRISSY: "You have people risking their lives to get here, but what if that same energy went into getting together with others who are sick and tired of it government and get a plan together. History has many stories of citizens getting together to force change on their government."

Apparently Mexicans are willing to die crossing the border to the U.S.A. than risk their lives fighting their corrupt Mexican oligarchy overlord.

I once asked a Mexican co-worker why the Mexican people don't rise up and overthrow the corrupt Mexican oligarchs. How can Mexicans tolerate a few corrupt political and business elites oligarchy class take control majority of Mexico's national wealth.

He answered: "If I try to orgainize people to challenge the Mexican oligrachs, they will brank me as a trouble maker. The Mexican oligarchy will do anything to protect their business monopoly, including sending a death squad to my house and kill me."

I share the same sentiments as some of the other posters.

I don't believe Americans have anything against "paisanos" - after all, so many of our relatives started out in this country as "paisans" (as in Italian immigrants).

It has to do with the Mexican governments policies', which want to have their cake and eat it, too. We want stringent, legal immigration, but Mexican businesses, both legal and illegal, benefit from our lax borders, so the Mexican government does little to raise standards in their own country, but spends most of its time blaming its' shortcomings on the United States. Mexico is not a U.S. territory or possession, so to lay its' issues at our feet misses the point.

Ali-

What is your point on Mexico's assimilation of immigrants?

Druvas:

An ad hominem slight at last! Well, not directly, but it's there. Anyway.

"Adhering to those laws by the majority. . ."

I wonder what you mean when you say laws are "by the majority". Is it that they're written by the majority? Approved by the majority? I also dispute that adhering to a law simply because it is popular makes it such adherewnce automatically ethical or moral.

"Our nation-state broke away from England becasue it was being subjected to unjust laws. Wanting immigrants to come through the "front door" is not unjust. "

Yes, whether or not a specific law is unjust is a matter of opinion; and discussing what sort of immigration is just needs to go beyond "My ancestors came here on a boat and applyed for citizenship. Why can't everyone else?" and into what sort of world we imagine America leading/existing in.

Also, what "the front door" entails is more complex than your euphemism indicates. And if someone disagrees with your position on illegal immigration enforecement, they are not automatically advocates of the "they do the work we won't do" position. I mean, it's not even a far left position. The far left's position is that they may, but that it is indeed exploitation, much as your radical self stated. It's also the position of many pro-business conservatives.

Finally, I am glad you agree with my racism point: most gripes about illegal immigration aren't racist at all, and just because someone is anti-illegal immigrantion does not make that someone a racist. I've heard that ad hominem attack bandied about far too much in discussions about immigration.

Oh, and just to add some bona fides, I work in the CBP bureau of DHS.

A look at how MEXICO assimilates its immigrants, including Mr. Krauze:
Jewish immigration to Latin America began with seven sailors arriving in Christopher Columbus's crew[citation needed]. Since then, the Jewish population of Latin America has risen to more than 500,000 — more than half of whom live in Argentina, with large communities also present in Brazil and Mexico.

In Mexico, Mexico City has the largest Jewish populations. The second and third largest Jewish groups are in Guadalajara and in Monterrey (the founder of Monterrey, Luis Carvajal, was persecuted by the Inquisition for practicing Judaism). The book Estudio histórico de la migración judía a México 1900-1950 has records of almost 11,300 who immigrated to Mexico between 1900 and 1950. A majority of these (7,023) where Ashkenazi Jews who originated from Eastern Europe, mainly from Poland. 2,640 others arrived from either Spain or the Ottoman Empire and 1,619 from Cuba and the United States. In 1990 there were almost 58,000 and 45,000 people in 2000 professing the Jewish religion in the country, according to the INEGI.

Leon, your last name sounds as if it could be German or East European. Now, it that's the case, and you identify yourself as "Mexican", well, just how is it that your or your family assimilated to Mexico? Is it so terribly unreasonable to expect foreigners, including Mexicans, to assimilate to OUR culture (including our laws) if they want to live here?

Pasifikawa--IF we do need workers, there is serious doubt that we need workers with a 2nd grade education and who will spawn many kids that they can't afford to pay for. Poverty literally breeds poverty, and I'm tired of importing it. Personally, I like the part of the bill that revises the immigration system to place less emphasis on family and most on skills, education, and knowledge of English. If employers want (cheap) unskilled workers, well, let them sponsor them--but they aren't willing to do that so far. They want the US taxpayer to pick up the tab, while they reap the profits.

Vidusa--You mean "poor Mexico" doesn't have leaders who looked after its interests in the NAFTA negotiations? That Mexicans are infants who just aren't responsible and aren't to be trusted with any agreement they enter into?

Many US factory workers have lost jobs and livelihoods because factories moved to Mexico under NAFTA. Is Mexico complaining about THAT? No. Though they do now have to compete with China for manufacturing because China will do it cheaper yet. The US provided funds and training for displaced factory workers, but is Mexico doing the same for agriculture? No. In fact, illegal aliens are yet another subsidy to US agriculture here in the US that will help it undercut Mexican farmers even more.

Jacob

Like I said, American businesses often view illegal immigrants as modern day slaves. Unless they get one monster of a tax break, then they are not going to do but so much for their illegal/undocumented workers. That defeats their purpose of getting something for nothing. Amer. businesses don't want to put in that much effort, when they can get cheap labor and basically control them. If an American business have to go through a lot of hassle to ensure that their workers are legal or have the proper documents that may just start hiring Americans again.

Mr. Goh!

Yes, yes, we all know you present yourself the enlightened intellect. The reality, though, is that Nation-States are real and that is how the world currently orders itself. As to racism, no one has ever seriously put forth the idea that those coming here illegally from south of the border are inferior based upon race or national origin. In fact, I would imagine people only look down on them and express frustration because so many (1 out of every 5, liberally-guessing) are here illegally. To counter your first posting, it is not disingenuous to say it is a matter of legality. A society holds itself together with laws. Adhering to those laws by the majority is crucial to the existence of the nation-state. When those laws are violated in extreme ways, it is incumbent upon the governing force to put a stop to it. Our nation-state broke away from England becasue it was being subjected to unjust laws. Wanting immigrants to come through the "front door" is not unjust. My ancestors came here on a boat and applyed for citizenship. Why can't everyone else? Are we to believe the extreme left position that they "do the work that we don't want to do"? Perhaps they do, but at best, that is exploitive and un-American.

Blaming the US for being abusive and creating the discontent of Mexicans is becoming a bore. The real problem, as so eloquently stated by many previous contributors, is the Mexican government’s incompetence and corruptness, and illegals feeling entitled to be in the US.

Leaders of Mexico have turned their backs on their own people and expect the US to solve the problem. They are completely unaccountable and have no shame. Presidente Fox had the nerve to say he hoped immigration change for illegals in the US would come to fruition before he left office. How audacious!!

Now that this issue is a national one vs. just for the Border States to contend with, the outrage over the wrongs committed by millions and millions is finally gaining notice. It is about time! The hypocrisy over this issue is becoming more obvious, as well. If any non-Mexican entered Mexico illegally and got caught there would be an instant ride to jail with no get-out-for-free-card! Non-Mexican's cannot purchase property in Mexico (even after becoming citizens); one cannot work without proper documentation of citizenry; and, the list goes on. We should be so "abusive"!

Illegal immigrants have become so emboldened that they now think they can dictate what the US laws should be. Outrageous!! They should take this energy to their country and scream at their own government for change. I’m sure the US would support this effort.

As a native of southern California who has seen illegals snub their noses at the law, I’m tired of the abuses by them!! If they want to be angry with us, let them. I have no problems with Mexicans getting bent-out-of- shape because we finally decided to put our foot down. Their response is like that of a tantrum-throwing spoiled child. I say lay down the law. They’ll get over it and learn how to play nicely if they want to play at all.

Yes, and why is the wait so long? Because our immigration policy favors FAMILY reunification, and guess who dominates it? MEXICO! Has for about the last 20 years. The one country in the world sending the most legal immigrants (about 20 percent of our annual figure). Now, just why is it that Mexico should have an advantage over people from any other country, including Canada?

I agree that if you love your country that much, then you will have to bite the bullet to change it from the inside. You have people risking their lives to get here, but what if that same energy went into getting together with others who are sick and tired of it government and get a plan together. History has many stories of citizens getting together to force change on their government. I do believe that instead of us waging war and fighting in Iraq, we should of placed more effort in supporting the Mexican people who are willing to work within Mexico to take back control, so that both countries can be more equal partners.

Native Washingtonian--Now, why would the US "invest" in Mexico when said investment is most likely to go into the hands (and foreign bank accounts) of Mexico's elite?

If Mexico is not getting the foreign investment it desires, it had best look to its own house first. The lack of transparency in its laws and the endemic corruption discourage both native and foreign investment. Who wants to invest money where the rules depend on whose hand you grease? Then, there's the little matter of infrastructure. Mexico has a low tax rate and isn't particularly good at collecting what it is owed. These monies should be collected and spent on developing infrastructure, such as an educated workforce, that would attract investment. As it is, Mexico can't rely on cheap labor forever--Asia's a better source of that these days.

I haven't studied a great deal of Mexican history. I do know that in the U.S., we have had to shed blood and lose lives to change government and make the government provide and ensure freedom for all people. In fact, we do have a ways to go, but not as much as the past. I agree that in order for illegal immigration to slow down, something has to be done in Mexico. We could invest in Mexico all we want to, but the government will have to commit to a hard road of getting their own country straightened out. If we invest money, and that money goes to the hands of a corrupt government, then it is of no good. If Mexicans really have as much courage as I think they do, then they will risk their lives to force change in Mexico. I don't know what the new President in Mexico will do, but if things continue on as its been, the Mexican people will have to force change. That is the only way, overloading America will not.

Instead of fleeing to the United States, maybe the majority of poor Mexicans should stay and fight the corrupt Mexican oligarchy that control Mexico's economy.

Instead of fleeing corruption and oppression by the few Mexican oligarchs, maybe the poor Mexican people should rise up and take control of their country from the hands of the Mexcican mafia A.K.A. Mexican Oligarchy.

The Mexican people should understand that running away from your country's problem is not going to free you from the Mexican oligarchy's economic oppression.

I don't understand how you can dislike a country so much, but break laws and risk your life to get into it. Please explain. What do you think would happen if I went into any other country, including Mexico illegally and demanded my rights, protested and marched, and wavyed the American flag. Get my drift yet? America your sooo bad and unfair : ) Wake up and run the illegals out, no matter what country they are from.

Now here is the truth, illegal immigrants are viewed as nothing more than modern day slaves by American businesses. The American people believe in having a liveable wage and health benefits, we believe in having the type of rights that citizens should have. Employers do not want to play by the rules and hire their fellow citizens because we know better and can do better. Plus, if an employer steps out of line, we have a better platform to stand up for ourselves. An illegal alien is more likely to be abused by the employer because they have broken the law to come here. Policeman see them as easier targets because of their illegal status. So, yes, they can earn a better wage compared to what they get from Mexico, but by being illegal, that invites a whole host of problems right there.

Our public discourse is being inundated with isolationist propaganda and plain falsehoods. Nowhere is this more evident than the debate surrounding the immigration crisis. I can understand how the average person can be misled, but it is unconscionable for any elected official to cite blatant distortions or racist rhetoric as the basis for public policy decisions.

The US job market demands nearly a half-million additional workers each year to meet labor shortages, yet current policy allows barely 100,000 workers to enter legally. As recently reported by ABC News, many service-oriented small businesses cannot obtain work permission for the number laborers needed and face almost certain bankruptcy due to the crackdown on hiring practices. Without foreign-born workers willing to fill remaining vacancies, our economic fabric would be in tatters. Undocumented workers should not be criminalized but provided means for legal participation in the workforce- and applauded for their critical role in keeping the US economy strong and growing.

Many undocumented workers pay Social Security and Medicare through payroll deductions but do not receive benefits. Contributions from foreign-born workers are subsidizing these programs – not “draining the system.” The IRS has collected billions from undocumented workers who don’t seek refunds and many have IRS taxpayer numbers to meet tax obligations. Immigrants, regardless of status, will pay on average $80,000 per capita more in taxes than they use in government services. The Social Security Administrations holds over $420 billion from undocumented workers ineligible for benefits. Without the contributions from foreign-born workers, our cherished entitlement programs would be even less solvent.

A large percentage of undocumented persons in the United States entered our county legally with valid visas and passed through regulated points of entry. Many have US children and deep roots in communities across our land. Inflexible immigration policy has landed them in bureaucratic limbo by prohibiting any change of status or visa renewal in country. Most face severe penalties and certain deportation should they come out of the shadows. Uprooting communities and separating parents from their American children is not in line with our family values.

Declaring that “anything less than forced deportation is amnesty” is akin to making dismemberment the only acceptable punishment for taking extra Post-it Notes for the office supply closet. “Gestapo” strategies are not acceptable approaches to the immigration crisis. Small fines can be meaningful punishment for those who may have skirted deficient immigration policies, but rounding up every undocumented person or otherwise forcing them to flee the country is simply not realistic or in line with any sense of moral or social justice we share as a nation.

Faith teaches us that, “when an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born” and reminds us that “we are all aliens sent out to help other aliens find a place of safety in this world.” Congress should support a rational, moral, and comprehensive response to the immigration crisis and reject the “Gestapo” tactics of extreme penalties and excessive fines that force mass deportation.

Leon Krauze: "From Mexico’s point of view -- which isn’t always right or well informed -- the American government mistreats and abuses paisanos on a regular basis"

Americans mistreat and abuse mexicans on a regular basis? Really?

I suggest the Mexicans look in the mirror and reflect on how Mexicans abuse and mistreat their neighbors from central and south American countries!

The abuses and violation of human rights by Mexicans against migrants from central and south American countries is well documented.

To be clear, the Mexicans have no moral authority nor credibility to criticize Americans. Furthermore, Mexico does not speak for Latin America.

"If nation states are real things. . ."

I contend they are not any more real than any other human endeavor; only subjectively.

I also contend that the non-racism of any attitude should not be judged vis a vis the existence of nation states. Rather, whether or not an attitude or statement is racist should be judged whether or not such an attitude presumes an individual's inferiority or superiority based solely upon race or national origin.

-Mr. GOH!

Most people properly focus on the fact that the primary cause for undocumented migration from the south into the U.S. is the people's inability to obtain gainful employment at home.
This was not the case two decades ago.

U.S. investment in Mexico, or the lack thereof, as a result of globalization, is probably the most important contributing factor to migration and anti-American sentiment. Low-skilled jobs that were once sent to Mexico are now, instead, being shifted to Asia, where the minimum wage is 1/4 of that in Mexico.

Furthermore, and contrary to the conventional wisdom which tends to point the finger at illegal immigration, globalization is also likely the strongest contributor to unemployment in the U.S. Why hire in the U.S. if India or China will do the same thing for one tenth of the cost?

The U.S. high school dropout population is (fortunately) diminishing, so low-skilled workers from abroad, whether legal or not, are taking over the vacancies, while U.S. natives obtain the higher-skilled (and higher-paying) jobs that aren't outsourced to Asia.

Perhaps the best way to protect North America's interests, including Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, is to set forth strict anti-dumping regulations to discourage sending local work to nations that are thousands of miles to the east, and share different values than those of our immediate neghbors.

Just because it's cheaper for business, doesn't mean it's the best policy.

Name a single Spanish colony anywhere in the world that has succeeded economically?

The Mexican government has done well in building infrastructure around its policy of exporting poverty to the United States. It has more consultates in the United States (in over 40 states) than does any other country in the world - all to help service the immigrant population. It's use of public relations firms (both in Mexico and the United States) and lobbyists to maintain immigration levels (illegal and otherwise) is both concerted and aggressive.

The goal is very simple: Move the poverty onto the Americans.

Mexico has both the resources and people to become both prosperous and venerated elsewhere in the world (particularly in Latin America). And yet, for reasons unknown to me, it won't. Mexico's image is really a reflection of what it exports . . . illegal drugs and associated gang warfare, gardeners and dishwashers. In a word, desperation. And strangely, Americans are lectured constantly by a radical left - and the Mexicans themselves - why this status quo is acceptable.

What you are finding now is that more Americans are saying "enough." Clean up your own house for a change.

If nation states are real things, and most would contend that they are, then it is not remotely racist to insist that Mexico clean up its act and work to resolve its own problems, rather than merely move them north.

I have feeling that all this "we only have a problem because it's illegal" talk is disingenuous. I mean, there are reasons for the laws, and I cannot believe that most Americans would blindly hew to the law for the law's sake. America was founded as an independant state as a result of a rebellion against what many felt were unjust, foreign laws. The idea that obeying the law is good only because obeying the law is defined as good seems a bit, well, authoritarian to me. I mean, the law isn't and end unto itself; purpose and vision underlie it (hopefully).

As an American, I think what we lack is a truly thorough-going debate which reaches beyond enforcement issues. I mean, our immigration law is a weird patchwork of systems which leaves those affected by the system feeling as if there's no unifying purpose behind it. Quite Kafkaesque, really. When we debate policy, we need to define: legitimate purposes of immigration to the U.S.; the overarching purpose of the immigration system (is it: to provide skilled workers? keep foreign ideas and cultures flowing into and energizing American society? fill low-wage positions in a burgeoning service economy?); and what policies could effect the resulting vision of an immigration system.

I think we have disagreements on the most basic level of the debate, and, as such, political compromises over immigration need to beging with the fundamentals.

Mr GOH!

I have lived in Mexico three years now and anti-Americanism is definitely on the rise. In Chiapas where I live people used to say "buenos días" back when I greeted them on the street. Now, more scowl at the "pinche gringo." Their belief the American government mistreats and abuses their "paisanos" on a regular basis is the epitome of hypocrisy considering how their police beat, rob and rape their cousins from Central and South America. Everyone is racist in one way or another. The difference here in Mexico is that the people are more polite in hiding it to one's face.

I've read that corn subsidies to agribusiness by our government are ruining Mexico's farmers and thereby exacerbating the flow of illegals. Another example of how corporate interests diverge from America's.

Many Mexican are still angry that the US robbed them of half their country. Then, the residents that remained were treated as if they were indians. Those feeling persist. Coupled with images of rascism, rascist remarks, and rascist like actions such as building a "berlin wall" on the border, it is hard not to see their frustration. Its US hypocracy. US business embrase mexicans as "NEEDED" workers, offering jobs, recruiting them in Mexico. Then, our politicians and high-minded individuals claim them as parasites spreading some infectious disease when it is obvious we are enjoying the fruits of their labor. Then take NAFTA, NAFTA has caused their food prices, especially corn based prices, to increase a 100% because of US need of ethanol. So, US causes their food prices to increase and then builds a fence to keep them from getting jobs (pay for that food prices) from businesses actively recruiting them in Mexico.

Once we realize that the black line drawn on a map is pointless and irratioinal, the better both nations would be.

The problem with illegal immigration lies not only in the U.S. but also in Mexico. The problem stems from the ruling class in Mexico not willing to share the wealth. Mexico is a country with a handful of people controlling all of the wealth and is not willing to give up one peso to make their contry better. Mexico is a vastly wealth country and there is no reason not to help its poor other than the fact the ruling class is greedy. Not only is there a problem with wealth there is a problem with class and status in Mexico that needs to be addressed. As a matter of fact that goes for the rest of the Latin nations all of the wealth is in the hands of a few and not the many which is the way it should be. All of the Mexicans that are in the U.S. protesting should be directing all of their anger and frustrations at the Mexican government. There is coruption in all governments but I think it is unprecedented in Mexico. The millions of illegal aliens in the U.S. should be protesting against a corupt government and ruling class at home. Running away to the U.S. is not going to solve the problem at home. If all you illegal aliens love your home country as much as you claim that you do then stay home and fix it. If that means protesting, shutting down business or further conflict in the long run it will be worth the effort. Mexico cannot look to the U.S. to solve their problem by ignoring millions of poor and often uneducated people.

Dave-

A major part of the problem is that if you want to sign the guest book you have to wait decades due to the quota system. In some categories I believe the backlog is stated as 22 years to process and come in under our quota. The paperwork and legal help needed to do it can also get very complicated and expensive. It wasn't always like this- I believe that our immigration quotas until the 60's was only applied to the old world and western hemisphere migrants had no numerical limitations. The legal route in is so broken right now that bypassing it completely is too frequently the best decision.

reforming your own governments would go a long way too. taking the easy way out i see. well stay home and fix it.

Leon Krauze,
Americans are not frustrated by Mexican migration or immigration. They are frustrated by illegal immigration. It would be interesting to know more about why Mexicans think "the American government mistreats and abuses paisanos on a regular basis". Because, from the US point of view, nobody should have any problems with orderly entry and exit (whether for temp work, vacation, or permanent residence) into or out of the US. Most Americans don't care if people visit, want to work or want to move here, they just want them to sign the guestbook on the way in and do it by the rules. Why should Mexicans get upset if the US tries to keep people from illegally getting in and, in many cases, dying from trying. I just don't get it.

Our perception, however, is that there is a certain mystique about those that have "made it" to the US illegally, that this is something that is to be considered heroic (instead of breaking the law or an illegal act). Additionally, it appears there is little done on the Mexican side to stem illegal immigration. This may or may not be true but that is the perception.

I too am often frustrated by the corruption and inaction of the Mexican government. Clearly, the Mexican quality of life is part of what drives so many to emigrate in spite of the costs and risks.

However, it would behoove the United States to invest in Mexico. Like or it not, we rely on Mexico and its people to support our way of life -- to help us patrol the border for terrorists, to staunch the flow of narcotics into our country, for manfacture of American goods, and for inexpensive seasonal labor. If we improve our relationship with Mexico, we improve the odds that Mexicans will assist us in the ways to which we have become accustomed.

I also believe that we have a social responsibility to Mexico. Isn't it glaringly obvious that one of the largeset drivers or illegal immigration is the quality of life in parts of Mexico and Central America? Through supporting mutually-developed policy, Mexican NGOs, and the Mexican economy, we not only protect our borders in a humane way, we fulfill our obligation to our neighbors.

Mr. Krauze, rather than directing your focus on the so-called Washington pandering, you might redirect your attention to your own indolent ruling class that continues to fail to take the necessary political and economic actions to improve the living conditions of the Mexican masses obliged to flee the country of their birth due to the obvious neglect of the masses by your own elites.

Mexico is surely not devoid of individuals with the intellect and means to effect reforms within your country to make Mexico an independent entity rather than an economic appendage of its Northern neighbor by using the sweat labor of its poor in the US to fill it government coffers.

The root cause of the illegals debate in the US rest squarely on the ineptitude and unwillingness of the Mexican ruling class to address the needs and expectations of its own citizens by deflecting it responsibilities on its Northern neighbor.

Mr. Chavez, for his part, may not be the ideal reformist but one behavior he does exhibit that we sadly fail to notice in the Mexican elite class is that he does not depend or rely on the US to care for his poorer citizens.

The Mexican workers that often risk their lives to cross the border exemplify far greater ingenuity and courage than that of its ruling class and unless it show more backbone in the future, it will surely face the likes of its own Chavez.

The Mexican border crossing dilemma is Mexico's own creation,and in my opinion, a testament to the ineptitude and indolence of the Mexican ruling class that prefers to exile its citizens rather than take the necessary actions to improve their standard of living and related opportunities for a better life.