proctitis branchiferous wrastler sparth dentilated religionate microdactylous annectent
Glaciology
http://www.fretle.com/

Lamis Andoni

A very good analysis. I agree completely.

SAM:
still blaming the jews - but you forgot to add
hailburton.
YOU FORGET THAT 25,000,000 people have a chance at a free life. but your cult of death, which they are forced to join and told they will die if they leave, holds them back.
islamics forcing hate and murder on them.
saddam was murdering 5,000 a month - that is 60,000 a year and there are less murdered than that.
now look above and see what you cult of death teaches and know that islam is the problem. it has always been the problem and as long as it exists it will always be the problem.

The only beneficiary from the ugly war in Iraq is AIPAC and Israel against the national interests of this country and at the expense of the blood of our brave soldiers and the money of our taxpayers.Sometimes I wonder if we are really independent as we seem to be fully controlled from within by some malicious power centers whose only goal is to serve the interests of Israel even against the national interests of this great country.

tommy boy
put these into context where they are acceptable conduct or admit that they are not acceptable.

The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and practice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."

so i am a biogot? how funny to have an islamic tell me that.
what of their book of death, the koran?
without limitation or qualification it and its god demand for all jews, christian, hindu's, anyone not islamic, then and now, hate, theft, kidnaping, ransom, torture, cutting of body parts, slavery, rape and murder. all with only one limitations - if they are infidels all this is permissible.
and now im a bigot?
all islamics who follow the koran, which is all islamics, follow that same hateful path that all islam first commenced 1400 years ago.
but i am a bigot, and islam and its followers - let me guess - faithful adherents to the inspired of a god that told them to murder the only two peoples, in the entire world, that believed in him, jews and christians.
but i am the bigot?

Thomas Paine
I am surprized thay you waste your time commenting on Frank Collins silly postings.
His stereotype bigoted comments are not worth commenting or replying.The best way is ignore him and to keep him barking while the caravan proceeds peacefully.

Your statements are bigoted, Frankie boy. Religous bigotry is defined as: "prejudice or discrimination against one or all members of a particular religious group based on negative perceptions of their religious beliefs and practices or on negative group stereotypes.", and your writings fit this to a tee. Since you entered into this thread, you have done nothing BUT make insulting, deragority comments about Muslims, laced with ignorant stereotypes.

Believe whatever you like about me, it is of no consequence what a bigoted fanatic such as yourself thinks of me. If I were a Muslim, I'd have no problem admitting it, but I'm not. Attempting to label debate opponents as the "other" is a typical technique of the bigot, so I am not surprised at your feeble attempt at what you obviously regard as a slander.

Trounced? Lol, thanks for a good laugh. Each and every instance of Christian atrocities I produced were documented with multiple references, and your so-called "trouncing" consisted of denying that the Christian perpetrators of the atrocities I cited were "not Christians", up to and including claiming that the Germans in WWII who committed the Holocaust were not Christian but Muslim, which is quite frankly one of the most idiotic things I've ever seen in this forum, and that says a lot.

I suppose that in the tinfoil-hat realm of reality that you occupy, denial of established historical facts and attempting to rewrite history qualify as "debate", but in the real world they simply show you up for what you are: an ignorant religious fundamentalist nutjob, of the same mindset as bin laden.

As to this idiotic "question" you keep citing: I have yet to see you state anything intelligent, let alone pose an intelligent question. Further, considering that you cannot even address or admit known historical facts in an intellectually honest fashion, it is rather amusing to see you accuse others of dishonesty--a textbook case of the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality you've exhibited all along.

You are an intellectual gnat, a bigot, a racist, and a religious extremist who advocates violence against innocents, nothing more.

tom:
so linking to islamic sites, and quoting the koran makes me a bigot.
you are not on islaimc response number 2. one is the christians did it too. you used that one and got trounced. now you are one number 2. soon you will move on to 3 and 4. you will say i lie and eventually tell me i tool it out of context.
you are islamic quit lying.
you are correct in saying we have nothing in common, you see i am a caring human being, you - well science may one day know.
and i should consider bush why?
and nothing you wrote has anyting to do with anything and you seemed to not answer my question.
so you have actually come up with a 5th response say nothing but use a lot of words to do it.
try again abdula.

Frank, as is typical of ignorant bigoted types, you immediately assume that anyone who does not toe your extremist line is a member of the group against whom your bigotry is focused. Apropos (look it up): your insinuation that I am "Islamic" or an "Islamist" simply because I, accurately, pointed out the stupidity and hypocrisy of you, a Christian fundamentalist, claiming that Islam is an evil religion when your own religion has a far more extensive history of violence and slaughter than Islam has ever come close to hitting.

Well, here's a newsflash for you, my dear, fanatical, ignorant, bigoted, intolerant pest: I am no more of a Muslim than you are. Nor am I a Christian, a Jew, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Zoroastrian, a Pagan, etc.

I am also not a foaming-at-the-mouth, bigoted, ignorant, advocator of violence as you are, nor am I a slack-jawed, cousin-marrying, vile, racist, xenophobic spewer of hatred towards other races and religion, nor am I a fanatic who decries the murder of my own while simultaneously advocating the mass murder of others.

In other words, I have nothing in common with you.

Nor do I need your idiotic, hate-filled rants to inform me as to the motivation of suicide bombers, when scientific Israeli and American studies have been done that agree with what the author of this article is saying.

In the 6th century BC, Sun Tzu wrote in The Art of War that one should know their enemy. Robert Pape of the University of Chicago has studied the phenomenon of suicide bombers and their motiviations, and here is a piece on his work from the notoriously un-liberal magazine Business Week:

What Makes Suicide Bombers Tick?
A new report provides essential info for filtering fact from fantasy. The President would be wise to study its conclusions closely
Two decades ago, comedian/actress Lily Tomlin starred in a brilliant one-woman show called The Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe. In one skit, she portrayed Trudy, a crazy but incisive bag lady who gripes that her "space chums" couldn't distinguish between a can of Campbell's soup and a picture of Andy Warhol's painting of a can of Campbell's soup. When she shuffled the items behind her back, her alien friends became hopelessly confused about which was real.

That came to mind when I compared President Bush's June 28 speech on Iraq with a presentation two days later by Professor Robert Pape of the University of Chicago. Pape is the author of a new book, Dying to Win, which provides the first data-based analysis of suicide bombers, and he reaches conclusions that are stunningly different from the President's. But no one could be confused about what's real and what isn't.

Consider, for example, this passage, from Bush's speech: "Many terrorists who kill innocent men, women, and children on the streets of Baghdad are followers of the same murderous ideology that took the lives of our citizens in New York, in Washington, and Pennsylvania. There is only one course of action against them: to defeat them abroad before they attack us at home." The President also declared, "Their aim is to remake the Middle East in their own grim image of tyranny and oppression -- by toppling governments, by driving us out of the region, and by exporting terror."

PREVAILING MISCONCEPTIONS. The implications: There's a connection between September 11 and the war in Iraq, radical Islamic fundamentalists are behind all of the suicide bombings in Iraq, and they're spurring insurgencies throughout the Islamic Crescent. Yet government studies of intelligence failures and Pape's analysis indicate there's no evidence that any of this is true.

About the only point Pape agrees with is that the bombers want to drive the U.S. out of the region. But he argues that American policies to combat the terrorists are wrong-headed. "The presumed connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism is misleading and may be encouraging domestic and foreign policies likely to worsen America's situation and to harm many Muslims needlessly," he writes. Here's a summary of his analysis, which is based on the 315 suicide terrorist attacks from 1980 to 2003:

Sri Lanka's Tamil Tigers, a Marxist-Leninist Hindu group opposed to religion, committed the largest number of suicide attacks, 76. The Kurdish PKK, which used the tactic 14 times, is headed by a secular Marxist-Leninist, Abdulah Ocalan. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, another Marxist-Leninist group, and the al-Aqsa Brigade, which has ties to the socialist Fatah movement, account for a third of the attacks against Israel. Communist and socialist groups account for 75% of the attacks in Lebanon. Islamic fundamentalists, he concludes, were associated with about only half of the attacks from 1980 to 2003. And such fundamentalist Islamic countries as Iran and Sudan aren't producing any suicide bombers.

CLEARING THE PENINSULA. Pape argues that the common denominator among the bombers in 95% of the cases is that they're nationalist insurgents with a secular, strategic goal: ousting the military forces of democratic countries from land the insurgents believe is theirs. The suicide terrorists, who account for about 5% of all terrorist incidents but about 75% of all fatalities, believe their land and way of life are threatened. The religions of the occupier and the insurgents invariably are different, Pape notes, but he contends that difference is merely a useful recruiting tool and isn't at the root of the animosity.

Al Qaeda fits this pattern. Osama bin Laden's opposition to the House of Saud stemmed from its decision to allow U.S. troops on Saudi soil. Bin Laden's goal is not simply to kick the U.S. out of Saudi Arabia, a country that's a Western construct, but rather from the Arabian Peninsula, which arguably stretches as far north as Iraq and includes Kuwait, Bahrain, and other countries in the region where the U.S. has troops.

Almost every suicide attack is aimed at a democracy, from the Tamil Tigers targeting Sri Lanka to Kashmir strikes against India. That's because the insurgents view democracies as vulnerable to this pressure, as President Bush noted. Indeed, the watershed event that sparked copycat attacks was the suicide bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon, which prompted President Reagan to bring U.S. troops home. Indeed, governments have made concessions in 7 of 13 completed campaigns (5 are ongoing). Not bad odds. And growing American disenchantment with the military operation in Iraq proves the point yet again.

FEEDING THE ENEMY. The mere presence of foreign troops is the instigation for the attacks, so lengthy stays to secure democracy actually make attacks more probable and help boost recruitment. Substituting Iraqi security forces for U.S. troops is the only thing that will likely make a difference. Pape notes that arrests of al Qaeda and other insurgent leaders are rising, but the metric that counts is the number of attacks, and they're rising, too. That suggests al Qaeda is growing stronger, not weaker.

Equally troubling is that even as the total number of terrorist attacks globally is declining, the number of suicide attacks is rising. The first five months of this year saw as many suicide attacks as all of last year.

Yet there are some encouraging signs. Pape points to the sharp decline in attacks in Israel when it left southern Lebanon, as it prepares to leave Gaza, and as it builds a protective fence. The insurgents need public support to survive, and if the goal of getting the enemy out is achieved, support for such tactics evaporates.

STRATEGIC PLANNING. Interestingly, Pape doesn't believe Uncle Sam should high-tail it out of Baghdad right away. He thinks the U.S. needs to turn the security responsibility over to the Iraqis as quickly as possible but says doing it immediately isn't feasible.

And Pape isn't an isolationist. He suggests that long-term, America should revert to the strategy of the 1970s and 1980s, when the U.S. relied on local regimes but had forces ready to jump when needed -- but not constantly on the ground, poisoning the atmosphere with their presence on land.

I find Pape's argument wholly convincing. He's the first to collect these data, so it's no surprise that Washington was operating on the blithe assumption that the suicide terrorists were all poor, young Islamic radicals. In fact, 42% have post-secondary educations, and they're part of concerted campaigns with coherent goals.

FACT AND FANCY. The Kurds, for example, didn't use suicide tactics against Iraq but did use them against Turkey. Fanatics would have attacked both, but rational strategists recognized that the chance of success was better in a democracy than in an autocratic state. What's more, Fatah, a socialist group, used the tactic before Hamas, a more religious-oriented organization, was even created, Pape says.

The goals and tactics of these groups are anathema to a democratic people, but we can't combat them if we don't understand them. Pape has briefed key lawmakers, and the executive branch is funding his continued work because it doesn't have the information he has. Let's hope that in the future, the Bush team can tell the difference between what's real and what's not.

Know your enemy.

notice the title here:
End Occupation or Kill the Occupier?

how islamic of her.
end the occupation - which islam stole 1400 years ago.
how about that?
you islamics are big on the give it back stuff -
well you stole israel and using your own title here
End Occupation or Kill the Occupier?
islam is the occupier. want to leave or die?

well there is one thing i have learned, you islamics will never answer a questions and as for as you are concerned anything islam does to an infidel is just fine with you.
oh and i learned one more thing. how do you know when an islamic is lying - they have their mouths open when they talk.

Frank, as I said: you and bin laden are two sides of the same coin, each fully content to simultaneously speak out of both sides of your mouths. Both of you have the same rallying cry: "Murdering civilians is bad, except when WE do it."

Denying the documented history of Christian atrocities won't make them go away, nor will your laughable claim that the WWII Germans were Islamic, not Christians, hold any water. Christians have committed far more slaughter of innocents than Muslims have ever dreamed of, and your endless stream of fundamentalist Christian polemics won't change this.

Further, your hypocritical justifications of such slaughter while decrying as "terrorists" anyone from the other side who engages in similar actions on a far smaller scale again only serves to illustrate your hypocrisy and blood lust, and serves to illustrate that you would only apply your "morals" to the other side, while exempting yourself from abiding by them. If the murdering of civilians is bad, it is always bad. If it is not always bad, then you are engaging in the same sort of moral relativism that is the hallmark of bin laden.

The only butt you're kicking here is your own, by demonstrating the intolerance, hypocrisy, bigotry, and fanaticism that is the hallmark of religious zealots like yourself and mr. bin laden.

kicking the butt of thomas again.

thomas:
when people murder and continue to murder and do it year after year, they are not christian. they may be islamic and do it, but they are not christian. they may even call themselves christian but that does not make them christian.
and the last time i looked hitler was not trying to spread and impose the christian religion on anyone.
the islamic wars that i noted were for the purpose of spreading islam, which is a big difference.
i did not note those internal wars between islamics for territory from other islamic rulers, if i had the list would go on forever.
what we are talking about is religious war. we will always have war, i think that is a given.
but war, where one group thinks god ordered them to murder people who will not accept their religion is vile and evil.
look at the nazi's, which the islamics joined with in ww2. there were plenty of jews that did not even consider themselves jews, and were in fact christian, that fell under the axe of hitler. if his had been a religious war, the conversions would have been enough to save them.
hitler also attacked christians, as most of the russians he took on were christian, even if the government was communist.
in short, ww2 was not a religious war for the nazi's but it was for islam, as they looked at it as a change to murder jews and christians, hence their special ss units to murder christian serbs who they considered an ancient enemy who stoped the spread of islam. the croats, who also merited an ss division of their own. they were not in it for religious reasons, they were in it to kill serbs, who they had been fighting with for a very long time. but croats did hate jews.
hitler also killed lots of catholics and there were priests in the camps too. unfortunately the catholic church did not have an army and could not do anything but sit by and hid jews and others in the vatican and in various churches. many a jew learned to celebrate the mass in public, and priests of many christian priests helped those jews celebrate the jewish rites in privacy, when no one was around.
and yes we did firebomb dresden and killed 100,000 in 2 nights of firebombing. you seem to forget that we did not start that war. you see that war is the devotion of assets to the destruction of the enemy in the field and its support structures, whereever they may be found. when the civilian population actively supports the attack on america by word or deed, they are valid targets. remember that we had to invade japan and the ultimate result was estimated to be 1,000,000 dead americans. not going to happen. now if the people had risen to depose the military then maybe not, but that is not what happened. drop a nuke - you bet. im glad they did it. and you should start thinking how many more japanese would have died if the war had gone on and on, which is what a lot of japanese power brokers wanted to happen.
we did the same in germany, who declared war on america, not the other way around.
in the west we have a concept of just and unjust war. it comes from the 10 commandments. you should read them sometime. while "not kill" is simple to write, it is not what is written.

_________________________

The sixth commandment in the king james version of the bible is "Thou shall not kill." Atheists claim that God violated His own commandment in ordering the destruction of entire cities, just to allow the Jews to have a homeland in the Middle East. The KJV was translated in the early 17th century using an archaic form of modern English. In the last 400 years, English has changed significantly. Unfortunately, the vast majority those who read the KJV (both believers and unbelievers) are unqualified to know what the text means in many instances because of word meaning changes. In attempting to demonstrate the contradiction of God's commands to Israel and the sixth commandment, atheist cite the KJV translation, "Thou shalt not kill."

However, like English, Hebrew, the language in which most of the Old Testament was written, uses different words for intentional vs. unintentional killing. The verse translated "Thou shalt not kill" in the KJV translation, is translated "You shall not murder" in modern translations - because these translations represents the real meaning of the Hebrew text. The Bible in Basic English translates the phrase, "Do not put anyone to death without cause." The Hebrew word used here is ratsach, which nearly always refers to intentional killing without cause (unless indicated otherwise by context). Hebrew law recognized accidental killing as not punishable.
___________________________
get it?
now early christians allowed themselves to be butchered and did not fight back, and the religion spread. but jesus did not order his followers to be murdered without fighting back. he said "those who live by the sword will die by the sword, but the interpretation has been used to mean attacking without reason, to obtain that which you dont want to work to obtain.
but you may disagree with that. a number of christian communities say they will never fight back and they dont. quakers, amish, meninites, there are lots and i cant argue with their beliefs. but if you look around today you will not find a "christian" nation murdering to spread the christian religion. it appears that only islam is doing that.
i never said every islamic that commits a bad act represents the faith. i said the faith demands bad acts. the christian religion does not DEMAND hate - except of sin, torture, kidnaping, ranson, cutting off body parts, rape, slavery, murder of those who will not accept christ or murder of those who leave christ. today only islam does that - which is consistent with its 1400 year history.
here is a flash for you - christians need not follow the old testament. jews must - but not christians. they have a new set of rules established by christ. they eat different food, accept jesus as god and the messiah, do not have to follow any of the rituals of the jews. as a matter of fact the jews who where the first christians had to consider non jews becoming christians. they limited them to the following - not to eat strangles meat [buzz words for food offered to statutes as if they were gods] and buggery - same sex sex. new christians did not even have to have to be circumsized, which was a real point of contention, originally.
and yes there is lots of death commanded in the old testament, which is more like a history book, than a book of war demanding that others be murdered for all time if they are not jews. most of the commands of the old testament are limited to how jews must act, not how others must act.
but you already know that becasue we have discussed this before, so i must consider your post as just more islamic lies and bs since you have already been informed of this.
and dont you say that the god of islam is the same god that is in the old testment? wow, you are condeming the god of islam. that must mean you are insulting islam. now go kill yourself.
and nowhere does jesus say to murder anyone. and dont make a fool of yourself by quoting a story jesus was telling and pretending it was a command from jesus to kill. and not once did jesus kill anyone or anyone to kill anyone.
but here is what your fake prophet ordered, the murder of a woman poet as she nursed her infant baby. what a prophet. if the baby had been a girl im sure he would have wanted to have sex with her, she wasn't 9 but what the heck. a child rapist is a child rapist.

SARIYYAH OF `UMAYR IBN `ADI
From Ibn Sa`d's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, translated by S. Moinul Haq, volume 2, pages 30-31.

SARIYYAH OF `UMAYR IBN `ADI
Then (occurred) the sariyyah of `Umayr ibn `Adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against `Asma' Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd, when five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the apostle of Allah. `Asma' was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?" He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?" He [Muhammad] said: "No. Two goats will butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him `Umayr, "basir" (the seeing).

im sorry i told you to quit lying, that would violate the koran and your fake prophet the child rapist commands.
islam specifically tells other islamics its ok to lie - especially to non islamics.
The following quote demonstrates the broadness of situations in which the prophet permitted lying. "The sons of Adam are countable for all lies with these exceptions:
During war because war is deception,
to reconcile among two quarreling men, and
for a man to appease his wife."
The principle of Al-Takeyya - The Arabic word, "Takeyya", means "to prevent," or guard against. The principle of Al Takeyya conveys the understanding that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventive measure against anticipated harm to one's self or fellow Muslims. This principle gives Muslims the liberty to lie under circumstances that they perceive as life threatening. They can even deny the faith, if they do not mean it in their hearts. Al-Takeyya is based on the following Quranic verse:
"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah:
except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.)
But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." Surah 3: 28
According to this verse a Muslim can pretend to befriend infidels (in violation of the teachings of Islam) and display adherence with their unbelief to prevent them from harming him. Under the concept of Takeyya and short of killing another human being, if under the threat of force, it is legitimate for Muslims to act contrary to their faith. The following actions are acceptable:
Drink wine,
abandon prayers, and
skip fasting during Ramadan.
Renounce belief in Allah.
Kneel in homage to a deity other than Allah.
Utter insincere oaths.
The implications of the principle of Al-Takeyya
Unfortunately, when dealing with Muslims, one must keep in mind that Muslims can communicate something with apparent sincerity, when in reality they may have just the opposite agenda in their hearts. Bluntly stated, Islam permits Muslims to lie anytime that they perceive that their own well-being, or that of Islam, is threatened.
In the sphere of international politics, the question is: Can Muslim countries be trusted to keep their end of the agreements that they sign with non-Muslim nations? It is a known Islamic practice, that when Muslims are weak they can agree with most anything. Once they become strong, then they negate what they formerly vowed.
The principle of sanctioning lying for the cause of Islam bears grave implications in matters relating to the spread of the religion of Islam in the West. Muslim activists employ deceptive tactics in their attempts to polish Islam's image and make it more attractive to prospective converts.
They carefully try to avoid, obscure, and omit mentioning any of the negative Islamic texts and teachings.
An example of Islamic deception is that Muslim activists always quote the passages of the Quran from the early part of Mohammed's ministry while living in Mecca. These texts are peaceful and exemplify tolerance towards those that are not followers of Islam. All the while, they are fully aware that most of these passages were abrogated (cancelled and replaced) by passages that came after he migrated to Medina. The replacement verses reflect prejudice, intolerance, and endorse violence upon unbelievers. In conclusion, it is imperative to understand, that Muslim leaders can use this loop-hole in their religion, to absolve them from any permanent commitment. It is also important to know that what Muslim activists say to spread Islam may not always be the whole truth. When dealing with Muslims, what they say is not the issue. The real issue is, what they actually mean in their hearts."

as i have previously said - who cares what is in the heart of a man trying to kill you or your family? the last line only concerns islamics and tells them that their fake god will know they are just lying and dont really mean it.

want to play some more? but you need to do research.

HEY HOW ABOUT TELLING US IN WHAT CONTEXT THE COMMANDS OF THE KORAN THAT I QUOTED ABOVE ARE ACCEPTABLE.

here is a dialog i had once.
what is a "progressive" or "moderate" islamic and when you answer remember to compate it with a non progressive or moderate islamic.
when someone answered and said a progressive or moderate does not believe in bombings i ask if those who are not progressive do.
i was told that no even those who were not progressive and moderate did not believe in it.
so i asked again then what makes you progressive and moderate.
i was told that a progressive and moderate believes in peace and love.
can you see it coming? i asked if non progressive and modersates did not believe in peace and love and was told that they did too.
so i asked again what makes someone progressive and moderate, and how many are you, and why call yourselves progressice and moderate if every answer to the questions applied to islamics that were not progressive and moderate.
they would not answer.
so i asked what about speaches in the mosques calling for war and violent imposing of islam on others, and gave them some links to internet sites with sermons in the mosque. and asked if these were the words of a progressive and moderate and if they were not progressive and moderate to quote the words used that were not progressive or moderate.
can you quess what happened? the progressive and moderate islamic refused to answer because the words from the mosque were based on the koran, they were almost exact quotes, and to point out what was not progressive and moderate would mean that they would be rejecting some of the commands of islam.
that would be offensive to islam, and you know what islamics think about that.

has anyone noticed that not one of the pro islamics has ever criticized islam in any form? if you were to read only their posts you would think that islam is the most peaceful religion on the face of the world and that no islamic ever does anything wrong.
does anyone believe that islam is peaceful and does nothing wrong?

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE ONE OF YOU ISLAMIC LYING SCUM ACTUALLY ANSWER A QUESTION, FOR ONCE.

Frank, please spare me the usual "the people who did this weren't Christains" blather. The CHURCH did this stuff. The history is there, documented, for all to see.

The Germans in WWII weren't Christian? I see...so, according to your "logic", at some point, Germany, which was something like 99% Christian, suddenly had a mass apostacy, wherein everyone, overnight, stopped being Christian, committed the Holocaust, and then went back to being Christian again, eh?

And I suppose the Allies in WWII, who firebombed every Japanese city, who firebombed numerous German city (Dresden, for one), and who killed nearly one half of one million innocent Japanese civilians in Hiroshima weren't Christians either, were they Frank?

No, of course not; because you, Frank, are the sole judge of who is, and who is not, a Christian. Right? So, conveniently, anyone who commits a bad action (as defined by you, of course) is "not Christian" and not representative of the faith, while conversely, every Muslim who commits a bad action is the veritable Pope of the faith.

Either that, or as you said earlier, and I quote: "killing civilians is not always wrong.". By which I'm sure you mean "killing people of other races and/or creeds is OK" based upon the teachings of your "religion of peace".

And you have the gall to claim that the Quran is somehow more warlike and violent than the Bible? Here's a nice section from the Book of Numbers (Numbers 31) that illustrates the "moralty" that your Bible preaches:
7And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

8And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

9And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

10And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

12And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

14And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Wow, that's some "morality" there, Frank: kill all of the adult males, all of male children, and all non-virginal women, but keep the virgins for yourselves. Burn their city down, kill their livestock, loot their possessions.

In today's world, there is a term for actions like these: "war crimes".

And this is but one example of the violence advocated throughout the Bible, as exemplified by the list I shall post, again, for people other than you to peruse and expose your hypocrisy.

Pathetic. Your hypocrisy is clear for anyone not blinded by the same myopic self-righteousness that people like yourself and bin laden ascribe to...you are truly two sides of the same coin. Your side is blameless and the epitome of good, the other side bears all of the blame and is the pinnacle of evil.

Baloney. Nothing more than the simple-minded rantings of a bigoted mind blinded by hate and unable to see things with any objectivity, or in any color other than black or white. Zealots like you and bin laden are a cancer on this earth.

hey lets talk crusades.
i posted a date by date history of islam's first 50 years. murder after murder. now here is a summary of what lead up to the crusades.
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.

846 Muslims sacking the capital of the Christian church. During the 8th and 9th centuries, the Arabs (known by mediaeval Italians as the Saracens) had begun to expand into Southern Italy during the Muslim conquest of Southern Italy. These newcomers, sailing from their bases in North Africa, had conquered Sicily and had begun a steady penetration of the peninsula.
Under Pope Paschal I (817-824), all the spoils of the holy martyrs were transferred into the walls of the city. When Rome was finally sacked in 846, Paschal's preparation did not prevent the robbery of Basilica of Saint Peter itself, nor of another major basilica, San Paolo fuori le Mura, both of which were outside the ancient fortifications.

To prevent a second such incident, in 852 Pope Leo IV commissioned the construction of another wall (so-called Leonine Wall) around an area on the opposite side of the Tiber from the seven hills of Rome. This enclosure has since become known as the Leonine City.

additionally - The Islamic conquest and domination of Sicily, as well as parts of southern Italy, is a process whose origin must be traced back in the general expansion of Islam from the 7th century onwards.

The first attacks from Islamic ships to Sicily, then part of the Eastern Roman Empire, occurred in 652: they were Arabs from Syria, led by Mu'àuia ibn-Hodeig of the Kinda tribe, and remained on the island for several years. The Byzantine exarch of Ravenna Olympius also came to Sicily but were unable to oust the invaders, who returned to Syria after collecting a large booty.

A second expedition occurred in 669. This time the strong, ravaging force consisted of 200 ships from Alexandria. They sacked Syracuse and returned to Egypt after a month of pillaging. After the Umayyad conquest of Africa (complete around 700), attacks from Muslim fleets repeated in 703, 728, 729, 730, 731, 733 and 734, the last two times meeting with a substantial Byzantine resistance.

The first true conquest expedition was launched in 740: in that year the Muslim prince Habib, who participated on the 728 attack, and his son Abdurrahman, after a successful siege of Syracuse, were ready to conquer the whole island when they were called back to Tunisia by a Berber revolt. A second attack in 752 aimed only to sack the city.

In 805 the Imperial patrician of Sicily, Constantine, signed a ten years truce with Ibrahim I ibn al-Aghlab, Emir of Ifriqiya, but this did not prevent other Muslim fleets from other areas of Africa and Spain to attack Sardinia and Corsica in 806-821. In 812 Ibrahim's son, Abdallah I, sent an invasion force to conquer Sicily. His ships were however pushed back first by the intervention of Gaeta and Amalfi, and later by a tempest which destroyed much of them. However, they managed to conquer the islands of Lampedusa and, in the Tyrrhenian Sea, to ravage Ponza and Ischia. A further agreement between the new patrician Gregorius and the Emir established the freedom of commerce between southern Italy and Ifriqiya. After a further attack by Mohammed ibn-Adballad, cousin of Emir Ziyadat Allah I in 819, no news of subsequent Muslim attack to Sicily are known until 827.
At his point, Sicily was almost entirely in control of Aghlabids, with the exception of some minor strongholds in the rugged interior. The population had been increased by the immigration of Muslims from Africa, Asia and Spain, as well as Berbers, who were most concentrated in the southern of the island. The emir in Palermo nominated the governors of the main cities (qadi) and those of the less important ones (hakim), and the other functionaries. Each city had a council called gema, composed by the most eminent members of the local society, which was entrusted of the care of the public works and of the social order.

The conquered Sicilian population was subjected to the typical discrimination against the Infidel found in most Muslim dominated lands.

****They were permitted freedom of worship, but only if they accepted the inferior status of a dhimmi.****

As dhimmi they were subjected to extra taxation -- the jizya (poll tax) and the kharaj (land tax), which ensured that they were contributing to the upkeep of security and protection that the Muslim armies were providing them. There were restrictions on repairing or building new churches. The dhimmi could not bear arms or ride a horse and were required to wear distinctive clothes so that they could be easily identified as dhimmi. Some converted to Islam in order to leviate the additional taxes that they had to pay. This situation resulted in the spread of Islam among the inhabitants (whether by honest conviction or economic and societal compulsion). However, many Greek Christian communities managed to survive as dhimmi until the arrival of the Normans -- especially in the hill towns of Northeastern Sicily. These Sicilians generally welcomed the Norman invaders.

isn't 500 years of being attacked, sacking rome, enough to warrant a response? not if your islamic.

TOM:
a christian would never have killed 6,000,000 jews. actually it was 7,000,000 and 18% of the russian people. to be a christian you have to follow christ. to murder you must reject christ. the nazi scum were not christian even if they called themsleves that.
and who were the ones fighting them, other christian countries.
and who were supporting them, why the islamics. dont believe me - here is a nice link for you to go to.
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/
the fact of the matter is the islamics were following the koran in having their own ssw nazi divisions and engaging in slaughter, supposed christians were violating their religion and no longer deserved to be called christians.
and i notice that you did the 1st general islamic response "CHRISTIANS ARE JUST AS BAD".
and now onto the inquisition.
you must remember that the catholic church did not have an army, unlike islamics. they had no control over anything except in name.
the inquisition was established to root out heresy, which any religion has the right to do. what you seem to ignore is that these tribunals were under the control of the local kings and queens.
here are more than a few facts about the inquisition.
The Spanish Inquisition was set up by King Ferdinand of Aragon and Queen Isabella of Castile in 1478 with the forced approval of Pope Sixtus IV. In contrast to the previous Inquisition, it operated completely under royal authority, though staffed by secular clergy and orders, and independently of the Holy See. It aimed primarily at converts from Judaism and Islam (who were still residing in Spain after the end of the Moor control of Spain), who were suspected of either continuing to adhere to their old religion (often after having been converted under duress) or having fallen back into it, and later at Protestants; in Sicily and Southern Italy, which were under Spanish rule, it targeted Greek Orthodox Christians. After religious disputes waned in the 17th century, the Spanish Inquisition more and more developed into a secret police against internal threats to the state.
The Spanish Inquisition would subsequently be employed in certain Spanish colonies such as Peru and Mexico. The Spanish Inquisition continued in the Americas until Mexican Independence and was not abolished in Europe until 1834.
The Spanish Inquisition was an institution that had precedents in other Inquisitions. The reconquest of Spain from the Moors resulted in a relatively peaceful multi-religious society, but violent anti-Judaism ensued and Jews converted en masse to the Catholic faith. Some of these conversos were suspected of not being sincere converts and the Alhambra Decree in 1492 ordered all Jews to leave their kingdoms, making an unknown number leave. Various motives have been proposed for the monarch to start the Inquisition, such as increased political authority, weakening opposition, doing away with conversos and sheer profit.
Ferdinand II of Aragon pressured pope Sixtus IV to agree to letting him set up an Inquisition controlled by the monarchy by threatening to withdraw military support at a time when the Turks were a threat to Rome. Sixtus VI later accused the Spanish inquisition of being overzealous, accused the monarchs for being greedy and issued a bull to stop it, but he was pressured into withdrawing the bull.
The officials were also able to use the Inquisition as a way
to fulfill their personal desires: “It is to solve their problems and
theirs alone that the Spanish Inquisition was started.” There were
many officials who wanted governmental position that were held by
Jews. After many futile attempts to get these Jews thrown out of
office, the officials had to devise a plan to get the Jews out of
office. The method that they devised was to introduce the Inquisition
to Spain. The officials started to spread rumors that the Jews were
the cause of all misfortunes including any bad weather, crop, or any
other mishap. This was a brilliant plan, since the first Jews that
the public wanted to be killed were the popular and high ranking
officials. This immediately opened up the positions that the
officials desired.
The Government officials were also fearful of these powerful
Jews. Many Jews had risen up in the political rankings through the
years, and this caused other s to fear the potential power of the
Jews. They were assuming that if the Jews became too powerful, that
they would be a threat to Spain, either by threatening the Monarchy as
previously mentioned , or by revolting against the Christian
officials and try and take over or overthrow the government, or even
by starting a religious Holy War with the Christians. The officials
needed to stop this uprising of the Jews. They knew that just rallying
the people for their cause would not be enough, something more
powerful was needed. Their solution is what is now known as the
Inquisition.
Another principle reason for the start of the Inquisition was
economics and money. When the idea of the Inquisition was becoming
more widely known of, Spain was not in a very prosperous time. Spain
had used a lot of money and resources during the reconquest of
Granada, and the wars in Spain and Italy. The government began to
realize that they were low on money, and that they needed to replenish
their financial funds, before their signs of weakness were evident to
the public. If that ever happened, the people might take advantage of
the weakness and try to overthrow the government. Therefore, the
officials and monarchs needed to find a way to acquire money. They
were able to get the necessary money using the Inquisition. They
killed hundreds of thousands of Jews and took their possessions,
their money, and anything else they could find. They used these things
to replenish the wealth of the government.
The government officials of the time were also a bit low on
money. They were very greedy, and wanted to be rich as they once were.
They were able to use the Inquisition as a manner of attaining money
and riches. They would hire people or go themselves, and ransack the
houses of Jews. They would kill the inhabitants of the houses, and
take anything they could find, including money, furniture, and
jewelry.
The King and Queen had the same selfish desires as the
officials had. They wanted to get more money for themselves, and they
had to find a quick source it. They did the same thing as the
officials did. They hired people to pillage the houses of the Jews,
and to take their money and possessions.
The Jews were becoming a powerful and rich group in Spain, and
had always been the type of people who wanted to be wealthy and let
everyone know it:
“The Jews...were a people who not only wished to make fortunes
but to flaunt their wealth.... As it was, not only did they rouse the
righteous indignation of Christians on account of the murder of Jesus
Christ, but the envy of those Christians who were less successful.”
The Spanish Inquisition was an independent state tribunal modelled after the medieval institution. It was formally announced by Pope Sixtus IV (1414-1484) in a papal bull in 1478. This inquisition was controlled by King Ferdinand (1452-1516) and Queen Isabella (1451-1504). The original intention of the Spanish inquisition was to hunt out relapsed converts from Islam and Judaism. To carry out the task, Ferdinand and Isabella appointed a Dominican monk, Tomas de Torquemada (c1420-1498) as the Inquisitor General. [1] - http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/spanish.html
now lets talk about something more recent:
Armed Conflict Events Data

Armenian Genocide: Ottoman Empire 1915-1917

In the early stages of World War I, in 1915 Russian armies advanced on Turkey from the north and the British attempted an invasion from the Mediterranean. Citing the threat of internal rebellion, the Ottoman government ordered large-scale roundups, deportations, Christian Armenians beginning in the spring of 1915, despite the fact that no rebellion was ever in evidence. Estimates vary from 600,000 to 2 million deaths out of the prewar population of about 3 million Armenians. By 1917 fewer than 200,000 Armenians remained in Turkey.

to come up with something you have to go back 500 years. for the non islamic world we just have to go back to ww1.

PALISRA could be the long-sought dream for settlement.
It is a sad situation that both Israelis and Palestinians have been fighting and killing each other for more than 60 years now and unfortunately, no light could be seen at the end of this dark tunnel.
The geography and demography of the area that extends between River Jordan and the Mediterranean indicate the complexity of the current situation. Every party is trying hard to grab by mere force what is in the hand of the other. Many wars have been staged and thousands of innocent lives have been shed for this purpose.
Nowadays, almost everybody is talking about setting up two countries for both Israelis and Palestinians. This simply means that the land of historical Palestine will be divided between the two parties, Israelis and Palestinians.
I doubt very much that either party will be satisfied with his share of the cake. There are chronic problems like Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, borders, water resources that nobody on earth can sort out to the satisfaction of both parties.
The short vision of setting up two separate states could sow the seeds for more bloody conflicts in the future. Nobody can guarantee or secure permanent and lasting peace under this proposition.
A far better viable solution that should satisfy both parties and put an end to all complicated issues is available. It is the establishment of one secular country for all on the whole territory of historical Palestine that includes the West Bank and Gaza besides Israel. Jerusalem will remain united for both parties, settlements could remain where they are now provided an appropriate compensation is made to the original land owners, natural geographical borders are already in place for the whole country and the issue of refugees could be settled by allowing all refugees to return home and to be compensated for the 60 years of misery they had to spend at refugee camps. All citizens of the new state, PALISRA (Palestine +Israel), would enjoy equal rights and bear the same responsibilities.
The newly established state, PALISRA will emerge as a prosperous and safe country within a very short period of time, and citizens of this state will learn how to tolerate,respect and even cherish each other. PALIRA will become a key player and an integral part of the Middle East as yesterday's enemies will become today's friends and allies for ever.

One more for you, Frank; Christian Germans kill six million Jews and several million others in Holocaust, starve and kill 2-3 million Russian prisoners, millions of Poles, Serbs, Russians, and others:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Peace-loving, gentle Christians perpetrate the Spanish Inquisition:

The Inquisition

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The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic tribunal for discovery and punishment of heresy, which was marked by the severity of questioning and punishment and lack of rights afforded to the accused.

While many people associate the Inquisition with Spain and Portugal, it was actually instituted by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) in Rome. A later pope, Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition, in 1233, to combat the heresy of the Abilgenses, a religious sect in France. By 1255, the Inquisition was in full gear throughout Central and Western Europe; although it was never instituted in England or Scandinavia.

Initially a tribunal would open at a location and an edict of grace would be published calling upon those who are conscious of heresy to confess; after a period of grace, the tribunal officers could make accusations. Those accused of heresy were sentenced at an auto-da-fe, Act of Faith. Clergyman would sit at the proceedings and would deliver the punishments. Punishments included confinement to dungeons, physical abuse and torture. Those who reconciled with the church were still punished and many had their property confiscated, as well as were banished from public life. Those who never confessed were burned at the stake without strangulation; those who did confess were strangled first. During the 16th and 17th centuries, attendance at auto da-fe’ reached as high as the attendance at bullfights.

In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. However, disputes about Maimonides’ books (which addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures) provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France.

In 1481 the Inquisition started in Spain and ultimately surpassed the medieval Inquisition, in both scope and intensity. Conversos (Secret Jews) and New Christians were targeted because of their close relations to the Jewish community, many of whom were Jews in all but their name. Fear of Jewish influence led Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand to write a petition to the Pope asking permission to start an Inquisition in Spain. In 1483 Tomas de Torquemada became the inquisitor-general for most of Spain, he set tribunals in many cities. Also heading the Inquisition in Spain were two Dominican monks, Miguel de Morillo and Juan de San Martin.

First, they arrested Conversos and notable figures in Seville; in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. An Inquisition Tribunal was set up in Ciudad Real, where 100 Conversos were condemned, and it was moved to Toledo in 1485. Between 1486-1492, 25 auto-da-fes were held in Toledo, 467 people were burned at the stake and others were imprisoned. The Inquisition finally made its way to Barcelona, where it was resisted at first because of the important place of Spanish Conversos in the economy and society.

More than 13,000 Conversos were put on trial during the first 12 years of the Spanish Inquisition. Hoping to eliminate ties between the Jewish community and Conversos, the Jews of Spain were expelled in 1492..

The next phase of the Inquisition began around 1531, when Pope Leo X extended the Inquisition to Portugal. Thousands of Jews came to Portugal after the 1492 expulsion. A Spanish style Inquisition was constituted and tribunals were set up in Lisbon and other cities. Among the Jews who died at the hands of the Inquisition were well-known figures of the period such as Isaac de Castro Tartas, Antonio Serrao de Castro and Antonio Jose da Silva. The Inquisition never stopped in Spain and continued until the late 18th century.

By the second half of the 18th century, the Inquisition abated, due to the spread of enlightened ideas and lack of resources. The last auto-da-fe in Portugal took place on October 27, 1765. Not until 1808, during the brief reign of Joseph Bonaparte, was the Inquisition abolished in Spain. An estimated 31,912 heretics were burned at the stake, 17,659 were burned in effigy and 291,450 made reconciliations in the Spanish Inquisition. In Portugal, about 40,000 cases were tried, although only 1,800 were burned, the rest made penance.

The Inquisition was not limited to Europe; it also spread to Spanish and Portugese colonies in the New World and Asia. Many Jews and Conversos fled from Portugal and Spain to the New World seeking greater security and economic opportunities. Branches of the Portugese Inquisition were set up in Goa and Brazil. Spanish tribunals and auto-da-fes were set up in Mexico, the Philippine Islands, Guatemala, Peru, New Granada and the Canary Islands. By the late 18th century, most of these were dissolved.

Gallery of torture instruments invented, used, and fully sanctioned by the Christian Church:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dungeon/4712/torture.html

Back at you, Frankie boy:

A River of Blood
And Yield They Did. Acharya S's
Truth Be Known
religion spirituality mythology archaeology history
online since 1995

Who Was Jesus? A New Ebook! | Acharya's Amazonian Adventure | Social bookmark this page

How many people have been killed by Christians since Biblical times?
VICTIMS OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
by Kelsos

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"WONDERFUL EVENTS THAT TESTIFY TO GOD'S DIVINE GLORY"

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Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)

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Ancient Pagans
As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25]

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Mission
Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

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Crusades (1095-1291)
First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
(In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]
Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

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Heretics
Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians (cathars = Christians allegedly that have all rarely sucked) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.

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Witches
from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]
incomplete list of documented cases:
The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times

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Religious Wars
15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

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Jews
Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]
(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.

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Native Peoples
Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]

Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.
As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]
Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
Other tribes were to follow the same path.
Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.
More Glorious events in US history

Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]
Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
More gory details.
By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]

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20th Century Church Atrocities
Catholic extermination camps
Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]
Catholic terror in Vietnam
In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]
Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.
The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:
"Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."
Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].
To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life.

Christianity kills the cat
On July 1, 1976, Anneliese Michel, a 23-year-old student of a teachers college in Germany, died: she starved herself to death. For months she had been haunted by demonic visions and apparitions, and for months two Catholic priests - with explicit approval of the Catholic bishop of Wrzburg - additionally pestered and tormented the wretched girl with their exorcist rituals. After her death in Klingenberg hospital - her body was littered with wounds - her parents, both of them fanatical Catholics, were sentenced to six months for not having called for medical help. None of the priests was punished: on the contrary, Miss Michel's grave today is a place of pilgrimage and worship for a number of similarly faithful Catholics (in the seventeenth century Wrzburg was notorious for it's extensive witch burnings).
This case is only the tip of an iceberg of such evil superstition and has become known only because of its lethal outcome. [SP80]
Rwanda Massacres
In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.
For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.
According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]
As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end.

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If today Christians talk to me about morality, this is why they make me sick.

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References:
[DA]
K.Deschner, Abermals krhte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962.
[DO]
K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.
[EC]
P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985.
[EJ]
S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977.
[LI]
H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961.
[MM]
M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People.
[MV]
A.Manhattan, The Vatican’s Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
See also V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY, 1992.
[NC]
J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992.
[S2]
Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00.
[SH]
D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992.
[SP]
German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996.
[TA]
A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England, London 1676.
[TG]
F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980.
[WW]
H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.
(This is in german and what is worse, it is out of print. But it is the best I ever read about crusades and includes a full list of original medieval Christian chroniclers' writings).
[WV]
Estimates on the number of executed witches:

N.Cohn, Europe's Inner Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch Hunt, Frogmore 1976, 253.
R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New York 1959, 180.
J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.
H.Zwetsloot, Friedrich Spee und die Hexenprozesse, Trier 1954, 56.

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Back at you, Frankie boy:

A River of Blood
And Yield They Did.

In 1122 Christian crusaders swept over Jerusalem and slaughtered men, women and children, 'until their horses were knee deep in blood. We then went to the church to thank the Lord for his mercy.'

In 777 , Charlemagne, a devout Christian, after conquering the Saxon rebels, gave them a choice between baptism and execution. When they refused to convert, he had 4500 of them beheaded in one morning.

In the fourth century, Emporor Constantine, the first Roman Emperor to become a Christian, had over 3000 Christians executed because their interpretation of the Bible did not agree with his. That is more than the number of Christians who died at the hands of the Romans during the well known 1st century "Christians to the lions" persecutions.

The above are from William Manchester's "A World Lit Only by Fire- The Medieval Mind and The Renaissance"..Little, Brown & Company, 1992

Queen Isabella, famous for sending Columbus to the New World in 1492, was well known also for her 'Spanish Inquisition', the gruesome torture and murder of tens of thousands of Spanish Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, people who read or wrote, uppity women, and anyone else not up to the Queen's strict standards. Isabella was a champion of the faith, piously congratulating herself as her victims writhed to their deaths in the flames and the many other ingenious methods of torture invented by her inquisitors.

Of course, the presence of torture did not always mean the presence of the Christian Church, and vice-versa. History is spotty; key things are left out or included inordinately - we don't always know. The church was active in many places with no record of the Inquisition in the same area; and in other cases the two went hand in hand.

In the 12th and 13th centuries, the Inquisition was born, with Christians killing Christians, during what was known as the Albigensian heresies. Hundreds of thousands of people died because their Christianity did not agree with official dogma. This adds to the irony of murder in the name of Christ, when the majority of victims of the early inquisitions were themselves Christians.

English Catholics suffered horribly under Protestant regimes. American historian William T. Walsh writes: "In Britain, 30,000 went to the stake for witchcraft; in Protestant Germany, the figure was 100,000" (, p. 275). In Scotland, too, alleged witches were cruelly put to death. Karl Keating quotes from the : "It is well-known that belief in the justice of punishing heresy with death was so common among the 16th-century Reformers-Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and their adherents-that we may say their toleration began where their power ended" (C.E., s.v., "Inquisition," 8:35).
From an article exonerating (to some extent) the Catholics, Here.

Historical quibbling aside, one sees the general trend. 1000 year old oak trees that had been sacred to the pagans were hacked down and replaced with cathedrals. The altar was often built on the stump of the tree; some altars are built over boulders or embedded stones that were ancient Pagan ritual sites.

As Christianity took over Europe, attempts to supress Pagan holy day celebrations met fierce resistance. Their solution was to absorb these holidays, purloin them, and make them into Christian holidays.

ROME

The traditional legend of the founding of Rome has it that Romulus and Remus, twin brothers, were cast into the Tiber river by their wicked great-uncle, but survived, and were suckled by a she-wolf. Romulus and Remus grew into men, and founded Rome on April 21, 753 BC. Rome was ruled by Etruscan kings until the late 6th century BC, when the Republic was established.

This great political machine lasted nearly 1,000 years, and conquered most of the western world. Following the Greeks, the Romans created their Ideal society.

The Romans though, did not leave us with delicate art, poetry and philosophy like the Greeks. The Roman legacy was political structure, concepts of legal administration, and the Catholic Church.

A few thousand farmers occupying seven hills by the Tiber River, in what is now Italy, consolidated their power, and after a few hundred years of persistent growth, came to dominate the Italian peninsula in about 250 B.C. Within another hundred years, the Romans controlled the entire Mediterranean world.

Coins from the reigns of three Roman emporors

GAIUS, called 'Caligula' ('little boots'), a late Julio-Claudian Roman Emporor, stepped up tyranny and campaigned on the Rhine, but his cruelties and probable insanity provoked the Praetorian guard. He was assassinated in 41 A.D.

CLAUDIUS, made emporor by the Praetorian guard despite the senate, (the coin shows him in their camp) invaded Britain and brought Gauls into the senate. He was poisoned by his wife in 54 A.D.

NERO wasted fortunes, was arbitrary and cruel, and an absolute tyrant. He murdered his mother, his pregnant wife (he kicked her to death), and many prominent Romans. He sought to be a performer, but his crimes provoked rebellion and his suicide in 68 A.D.

Originally Pagan, Romans followed a variety of religions.

The cult of Dionysus came from the Greeks; initiates were assured of immortality in a happy after world. Dionysian rites brought enthousiasmos, the Greek entheos, or being "full of God." This is the root of our word "enthusiasm." Their rituals involved a blood sacrifice, of a sanctified human, heifer or goat, and sparagmos, where the parts were scattered or eaten to seed new life.

The cult of Cybele, the Mother-Goddess, came from Asia Minor as early as 204 B.C. Besides guidance and protection from the Mother, an annual ritual celebrated the death/rebirth of the Mother's consort, the young Attis. Mourning was followed with orgiastic frenzy, inspired by the promise of immortality. Priests of Cybele flagellated themselves, castrated themselves, and were then drenched in the blood of a sacrificed bull.

The Cult of Isis centered on the story of the Mother-Goddess, and the death and dismemberment of her consort Osiris, at the hands of his enemy, Set. The devoted Isis searches for his remains, and establishes shrines in the places she finds them. She reassembles and regenerates him; hence the Isis cult's version of eternal life. Isis is often depicted with her son, Horus, in her lap. Depictions of the Virgin Mary with baby Jesus are the Christian Isis.
Rome became Christian because of Emporor Constantine, who had a vision the night before a battle in 312 C.E., against Maxentius at Saxa Rubra.
He dreamed of a cross in the sky, and a purple banner with the Greek letters CHI and RHO, which evolved into the traditional icthys symbol. On the cross were inscribed the words "in hoc signo vinces" - "in this emblem we will prevail." He had his soldiers paint crosses on their shields and they were victorious, and so he became a convert. He established the City of Constantinople on May 11, 330, at the site of old Byzantium, his homeland, and what is today Istanbul. It was the first Christian city, and for a time was the center of the Church. Constantine dispensed with the Roman court trappings, and lived in opulent Moorish style.

Eusebius, a historian of the time, says Constantine was very superstitious, and maintained images from several of the other contemporary religions. He instituted a complex system of ornate ritual into the Church rites, some of which persist today, especially in the eastern churches. He wore fabulous costumes, jewelry, tinted wigs, and was wantonly cruel. He believed that he would become an apostle after he died, and would be prayed to.

At the time of Constantine's conversion, Christianity was still collection of minor cults. Pagan Romans thought they had another nutcase-emporor on their hands. And indeed, persecution of the pagans began in earnest, by 390 CE. Bureaucratic mismanagement had reduced the government to a morass of wasted money, and the roads were falling apart.

But Christianity brought a new focus to Rome- it actually helped it sustain itself for another hundred years or so. Christianity's emphasis on self-discipline kept the behemoth alive a little longer. The Catholic church has also faithfully kept the language and legalistic Roman heritage alive to this day. The Church strengthened itself also by adopting the machinery of government. Eusebius notes that early Popes, Cardinals and Bishops often bought their way into office, or were selected from the military officer core.

Having sustained itself for 1000 years on plundered riches, the Roman empire had built a huge reservoir of resentment among people of every walk of life. When neighboring people started crowding in, like they do everywhere today, disgruntled, senate-abused taxpayers didn't put up too much of a fight.

"Invaders" were more like "settlers," and acquired land by "squatting." Whole settlements of "foreigners" had established themselves for decades, further and further into the empire, in a similar vein as what goes on in the Balkans today.

In 476, revolting Visigoths, led by Alaric, sacked the city of Rome. The Roman army had dwindled to nothing, and a band of angry settlers sent a message to history - and though the government held together even after 476, the Sack of Rome is considered to have been the death knell for the 1000 year old empire.

The Fall of Rome took 150 years, and is in fact difficult to date. Long after whole sections had been occupied by Visigoths and Vandals, even after the Sack of Rome, it still called itself Rome. The last Roman Emporor, (Romulus coincidentally) was dismissed by a guard, and went to live on the beach.

From about 500 until the end of the 15th century, Europe languished in 1000 years of superstitious, plague-ridden ignorance. (One thousand years is the amount of time from now back to the year 1000) All of the old wisdom was systematically blotted out and replaced with Catholic dogma.

The legendary Roman roads that had networked the empire were all gone, so trade became impossible. People lived in protected villages and only went outside at great risk, because of bandits and the general state of anarchy. There was continuous, dire poverty, hunger was a permanent part of life.

Without Roman industry and mining, iron was forgotten. To own an iron tool was a sign of great wealth. Medieval legends are filled with peasants in despair because they have dropped a sickle down the well, and so the intervention of an angel, or some sort of miracle, is necessary to recover it: the sickle is irreplaceable.

Without tools, farming became more difficult. A slow recovery began with the introduction of broad beans, peas, and other legumes in 1000.

The "Age of Faith", the 1000 years of the Dark Ages, was marked by a very low standard of living for most people. They lived in filth, sanitation being considered too sensual to be pious. The average life expectancy was only 25 or 30, and Bubonic Plague, Typhus and a host of other diseases regularly decimated hundreds of thousands of people. In the winter of 1349, 120,000 people died in England, one out of every three. Continental Europe had similar death counts during the 1300's, recurring waves of plague sweeping the countrysides, whole towns dying in days.

The church encouraged ignorance among the general populace: Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153), the most influential Christian of his time, bore a deep distrust of the intellect and declared "that the pursuit of knowledge, unless sanctified by a holy mission, was a pagan act and therefore vile."

Behind closed doors, the Church kept what knowledge there was alive, and deserve grudging thanks for that at least. But the missionary zeal of Christians was equalled only by their ruthlessness, and hundreds of thousands of natives of both hemispheres have gaven their lives to the bringers of the new faith, all in the name of the 'Prince of Peace.'

more of islam today to see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b32piz5fMk

8&NR=1 she only wants to serve allah and does

not care about peace on earth just murder -

called Suicide Killers

and from the teachings in the mosques:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo&mode=related&search=

YOU KNOW THAT PATTERN ABOUT EARLY ISLAM - IT APPEARS TO STILL BE WITH US.

OK, children, i bet islam loves it children. here are some video's of the result of the love and peace islamic mothers bless their children with.
motherhood under islam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw2EisVqKZ4&mode=related&search=
48 seconds into this is a little girl of 3 or 4 who has been taught to hate jews.
and in another part the children are told to go out and kill jews.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbHVEGnYD8&mode=related&search= and 45 seconds into this one a 2 year old says jews are apes and pigs and must be killed.

LETS HERE IT FOR ISLAMIC MOTHERHOOD!

HEY MAYBE THERE IS A LOVE FOR POETRY IN ISLAM:
a woman poet - without a weapon - only poetry - murdered at the direct command of moho the child rapist - and why do i say rapist - because he was having sex with a 9 year old - as all islam agrees - what 9 year old can consent to sex?

SARIYYAH OF `UMAYR IBN `ADI
From Ibn Sa`d's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, translated by S. Moinul Haq, volume 2, pages 30-31.

SARIYYAH OF `UMAYR IBN `ADI
Then (occurred) the sariyyah of `Umayr ibn `Adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against `Asma' Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd, when five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the apostle of Allah. `Asma' was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?" He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?" He [Muhammad] said: "No. Two goats will butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him `Umayr, "basir" (the seeing).

DARN - WRONG AGAIN.

here is a outline of the love and peace showered on india by their peace loving islamic brothers. a good number of these accounts have come from the writings of ISLAMIC writers extoling the victory [?] over the lowly hindus:

the Islamic invasion actually attempted to decimate the Indian religions of Dharma and the Culture of Bhaaratvarsha, but they did not succeed.

(From the accounts of arikh-i-Yamini of Utbi the secretary of Mahmud of Gaznavi) talking about killing indians and battles.
At Thaneshwar.
"The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously at Thanesar that the stream was discolored, not withstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise be to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims."
At Somnath
"The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and worshipers of sun and fire.... The number of infidels killed exceeded 50,000"
At Mathura
"The infidels...deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed."
Mahmud of Ghori
(from Hasan Nizami's Taj-ul-Maasir) Kol (Modern Aligarh)
"Those of the horizon who were wise and acute were converted to Islam, but those who stood by their ancestoral faith were slain with the sword"
Kol (Modern Aligarh) 20,000 prisoners were taken and made slaves
'Three bastions were raised as high as heaven with their heads and their carcases became food for the beasts of prey
Kalinjar - 50,000 prisoners were taken as slaves
Varnasi or Kasi (Benaras) : Kamil-ut-Tawarikh of Ibn Asir records,
"The slaughter of Hindus (at Varanasi) was immense; none were spared except women and children,(who were taken into slavery) and the carnage of men went on until the earth was weary."
Sultan Firuz Shah Tughlaq
(from Insha-i-Mahry by Amud Din Abdullah bin Mahru)
Delhi: -a punishment in detail (from Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi)
"A report was brought to the Sultan than there was in Delhi an old Brahman who persisted in publicly performing the worship of idols in his house and that people of the city, both Muslims and Hindus used to resort to his house to worship the idol. The Brahman had constructed a wooden tablet which was covered within and without with paintings of demons and other objects. An order was accordingly given to the Brahman and was brought before Sultan.The true faith was declared to the Brahman and the right course pointed out. but he refused to accept it. A pile was risen on which the Kaffir with his hands and legs tied was thrown into and the wooden tablet on the top. The pile was lit at two places his head and his feet. The fire first reached him in the feet and drew from him a cry and then fire completley enveloped him. Behold Sultan for his strict adherence to law and rectitude."
Delhi : (after Hindus paid the toleration tax (zar-i zimmiya) and poll-tax(jizya) they were foolish enough to build their temples.so...) "Under divine guidance I (Sultan) destroyed these temples and I killed the leaders of these infedility and others I subjected to stripes and chastisement "
Gohana (Haryana):
"Some Hindus had erected a new idol-temple in the village of Kohana and the idolaters used to assemble there and perform their idolatrous rites. These people were seized and brought before me. I ordered that the perverse conduct of these leaders of this wickedness be punished by publicly abd that they should be put to deathe before the gate of the palace."
Jajnagar:(Expedition objectives as stated by Sultan: Source:Ainn-ul-Mulk)
massacring the unbelievers, demolishing their temples, hunting the elephants, getting a glimpse of their enchanting country
I LOVE WHERE IN THE MIDST OF MURDER HE ACTUALLY TALKED ABOUT THE ENCHANTING COUNTRY - sort of nazi like isn't it.
Orissa:'Sirat-i-Firoz Shahi' records his expedition with the following words:
"Nearly 100,000 men of Jajnagar had taken refuge with their women, children, kinsmen and relations The swordsmen of Islam turned the island into a basin of blood by the massacre of the unbelievers. Women with babies and pregnant ladies were haltered, manacled, fettered and enchained, and pressed as slaves into service in the house of every soldier."
The Jihads of Shihabuddin,
the Sultankalka of Ghur

Around 1140, the Islamized Turko-Mongol chiefs of the Shansabanid tribe occupied Ghor in Afghanistan. Initially it was a vassal of the Ghaznavid Sultans, but around 1130 it came into conflict with them, after one of the leading Shansabanid nobles was murdered by the Ghaznavid Sultan, Bahram. A ferocious war ensued between the Sultans of Ghor and Ghazni, till Alla-ud-din Ghori invaded Ghazni with his entire cavalry and wrested it from Bahram. Alla-ud-din sacked the Indian spoils that Mahmud had placed there, massacred the city’s population in a 7-day killing spree and subsequently burnt it down. The next Ghaznavid Sultan, Khushro Maliq was driven out of Afghanistan by a coalition of Oghuz Turks and the Ghorids in 1157, and the Oghuz took Ghazni. The sons of Alla-ud-din, Ghiyas-ud-din Mu’azz-ud-din Ghori and Shihab-ud-din Muhammad Ghori defeated the Oghuz and annexed Ghazni in 1174. Ghiyas-ud-din, crowned himself Sultan, and appointed his brother Sultankalka. Shihab-ud-din was assigned the task of extending the kingdom to the East and he naturally gravitated towards India. 13 bloody campaigns that ravaged Northern India followed:

• Early in 1175 he invaded Punjab and sacked and burned Uch...(1)

• In 1178 he advanced south and marched towards Gujarat, but here the Indians acted quickly and rallying under the western chAlukya king MUlarAja II routed the Islamic forces completely forcing him to retreat...(2)

• In 1179 Ghori sent a message to PrithivirAja chAhamAna to make common cause with him against the Chalukyas. Prithivaraj however, wise disregarding his foolish minister, kadambavAsa’s advise to make a common cause with Ghori, preemptively attacked NaDDula and reconquered it from the Moslems.

• Shihab recovered in 1180 and invaded Sindh and ravaged the population carrying away much loot...(3)

• Then Shihabuddin Muhammad, quickly followed it up in 1181 and 1184 with two invasions of Lavapura (Lahore) accompanied with much slaughter...(4+5)

• In 1186 he invaded the Ghaznavid occupied Punjab and defeated the Sultan Khushro Maliq and wrested Punjab...(6)

• 1188 The Ghur Sultankalka invaded the ChAhamAna kingdom and sacked the fort of Tabarhindah killing the Hindu male populace and raping the women. Hindu refugees flocked around Delhi alarming the ChAhamAnas...(7)

• 1191 PrithivirAj advanced to meet Shihabuddin’s raid and routed him in the great battle of Tarai. While the Muslims suffered a crushing defeat, the Indians failed to butcher them to man and allowed Shihab to get away unharmed. He fled back to Central Asia leaving Punjab completely undefended...(8)

• 1191 PrithivirAj attacked Tabarhindah and took it back from the Muslims. Here the biggest mistake of the Hindus was not to reconquer and arm Punjab suitably.

• 1192 Shihab returned and sacked Tabarhindah again. This was followed by the second battle of Tarai, the ChAhamAna army was crushed and Prithiviraj was captured and brutally tortured to death...(9)

• 1192 the Ghur Sultankalka made a second trust towards Ajayamerupura (Ajmer) and sacked it smashing Hindu temples and a Hindu university in course of this invasion. The Hindus captured in this expedition caused slave prices to fall to a few Dirhams in the Muslim markets...(10)

• 1193 The sultankalka invaded Kannauj and slew the GAhadwala king Jayachandra. He followed this up with an invasion of vArANsipura slaughtering Hindus with great savagery and desecrating the holy city...(11+12)

After this, his viceroy Kutub-ud-din (also his lover?) and the Turkish adventurer Ikhtiyaruddin Khalji furthered the violence of Islam in the land of Hind. Meanwhile Shihab’s brother died in Ghazna and he crowned himself Sultan and immediately launched himself into another Jihad on the infidels of Hindustan in 1206. The exact course of this campaign is not clear. While on the North-western reaches of the Sindhu, he was ambushed by the Khokar chiefs and shot down by an arrow...(13). Thus ended the carrier of the Moslem brigand who brought misery to the whole of northern India through his 13 invasions.

Aurangazeb (1658 - 1707 )
Aurangzeb considered himself "The Scourge Of The Kafirs" (non-believers) and closed Hindu schools and libraries. In his lifetime he destroyed more than 10,000 Hindu, Buddhist and Jam temples and often erected mosques in their stead.3 In 1669 in Agra he had hacked off the limbs of the recalcitrant Hindu King Gokla and in 1672 several thousand revolting Hindus were slaughtered in Mewat.

From: Maasi-i-Alamgiri

Issued general order to destroy all centers of Hindu learnings including Varnasi and destroyed the temple at Mathura and renamed it as Islamabad
In Khandela (rajastan) he killed 300 Hindus in one day for they resisted the destruction of their temple.
In Udaipur all Hindus of the town were killed as they vowed to defend the temple of Udaipur from destruction.
172 temples were destroyed in Udaipur.
66 temples were pulled down in Amber. All Hindu clerks were dismissed from the office of the Imperial empire.
In Pandhpur , Maharashtra, the Emperor ordered and executed the destruction of temple and butchering of cows within the temple.
Aurangazeb also tortured to death the disciples of Guru Tegh bahadur before his death and also killed Guru. Guru Tegh Bahadur - the pride of Hindustan was martyred for he spoke for the persecuted Hindus of Hindustan. Aurangazeb also killed Guru Gobind singh's two children aged less than ten by walling them alive for not accepting the choice of Islam. In Punjab Muslim governors killed hundreds of Sikh children and made Sikh women eat the flesh of their own killed children. Banda Bahadur another great Sikh martyr before being torturd to death was also made to eat the flesh of his own children killed before his eyes. Any Muslim bringing the head of a dead Sikh was also awarded money

Zahiru'd-Din Muhammed Babur (1526 - 1520 )
Babur's Own Words on Killing Hindus:
For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer,
I battled infidels and Hindus,
I determined to become a maryr
Thank God I became a Killer of Non-Muslims!

From Baburnama, the Memoires of Babur Himself:
In AH 934 (1538 ) I attacked Chanderi and by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours. We got the infidels slaughtered and the place which had be Daru'l-Harb (nation of non-muslim) for years was made into a Daru'l-Islam (muslim nation).

Guru Nanak on Babur's atrocities:
Source:Rag Asa Guru Nanak Dev witnessed first hand the atrocities Babur committed on Hindus and recorded them in his poems. He says: Having attacked Khuraasaan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? pg (360)

On the condition of Hindu women in Babur's monster rule:
Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermillion - those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust.They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces.... ropes were put around their necks, and their strings of pearls were broken. Their wealth and youthful beauty, which gave them so much pleasure, have now become their enemies. The order was given to the soldiers, who dishonored them, and carried them away. If it is pleasing to God's Will, He bestows greatness; if is pleases His Will, He bestows punishment pg(417-18)

On the nature of Mughal rule under Babur:
First, the tree puts down its roots, and then it spreads out its shade above. The kings are tigers, and their officials are dogs; they go out and awaken the sleeping people to harass them. The public servants inflict wounds with their nails. The dogs lick up the blood that is spilled. Source:Rag Malar, (pg.1288)

From an article by Dr. Harsh Narain on Muslim Testimony (Indian Express 2/26/90):
Since the establishment of Zahiru'd-Din Ghazi's rule, officers and religious leaders spread Islam vigorously desteroying the Hindu faith. We cleared the filth of Hinduism from Faizabad and Avadh.

Jahangir (1605 - 1628)
Source: Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri
Though in the beginning of his rule Jahangir followed the humanistic rule of his father Akbar the great -the policy of sulehkul even issued a proclamation against the forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam, he revoked Akbar's orders that those who have been forcibly converted from Islam could return to Hinduism. He severely punished Kaukab, Sharif and Abdul Latif for showing inclination to Hinduism. He also prohibited the free inter-marriage customs between Hindus and Muslims in Kashmir. Hindus marrying Muslim girls and those who had already married were given a hoice between Islam and death. Many were killed.

Jahangir's torture of Guru Arjun Dev ji: Guru was imprisoned at Lahore fort. He was chained to a post in an open place exposed to the sun from morning to evening in the summer months of May to June. Below his feet a heap of sand was put which burnt like a furnace. Boiling water was poured on his naked body at intervals. His body was covered with blisters all over. In this agony Guru used to utter.

Tera Kiya Metha lage, naam padarath Nanak mange(whatever you ordain appears sweet. I supplicate for the gift of name)

The Guru was ordercd to be executed. In addition a fine of Rupees two lakhs was imposed on him. Some historians say that, as a measure of clemency at the intervention of Mian Mir, this fine was imposed in lieu of the sentence of death. The Sikhs offered to pay the fine themselves but the Guru forbade them to do so. He replied to the Emperor, "Whatever money I have is for the poor, the friendless and the stranger. If thou ask for money thou mayest take what I have; but if thou ask for it by way of fine, I shall not give thee even a Kaurz (penny)." The Guru accepted death by torture.

Shah Jahan (1658 - 1707)
In 1632 Shah jahan ordered that all Hindu temples recently erected or in the course of construction should be razed to the ground. In Benares alone seventy six temples were destroyed. Christian churches at Agra and Lahore were demolished. In a manner befitting the Prophet he had ten thousand inhabitants executed by being "blown up with powder, drowned in water or burnt by fire". Four thousand were taken captive to Agra where they were tortured to try to convert them to Islam. Only a few apostacised, the remainder were trampled to death by elephants, except for the younger women who went to harems.

Shahjahan put enormous eonomic pressure on Hindus particularly peasents to become Muslims. The criminals too were forced to become Muslims.

Source: Badshah Nama, Qazinivi & Badshah Nama , Lahori

When Shuja was appointed as governor of Kabul he carried on a ruthless war in the Hindu territory beyond Indus...The sword of Islam yielded a rich crop of converts....Most of the women (to save their honour) burnt themselves to death. Those captured were distributed among Muslim Mansabdars.

Source: Manucci, Storia do Mogor vol-II p.451 & Travels of Frey Sebastian Manrique

Under Shahjahan peasents were compelled to sell their women and children to meet their revenue requirements....The peasents were carried off to various Markets and fairs to be sold with their poor unhappy wives carrying their small children crying and lamenting. According to Qaznivi Shahjagan had decreed they should be sold to Muslim lords."

OUPS - MY BAD - GUESS I WAS WRONG - ISLAM WAS MURDERING AND BUTCHERING THERE TOO.

Bhaaratvarsha, but they did not succeed.

(From the accounts of arikh-i-Yamini of Utbi the secretary of Mahmud of Gaznavi) talking about killing indians and

battles.
At Thaneshwar.
"The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously at Thanesar that the stream was discolored, not withstanding its

purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise

be to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims."
At Somnath
"The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and

worshipers of sun and fire.... The number of infidels killed exceeded 50,000"
At Mathura
"The infidels...deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or

drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed."
Mahmud of Ghori
(from Hasan Nizami's Taj-ul-Maasir) Kol (Modern Aligarh)
"Those of the horizon who were wise and acute were converted to Islam, but those who stood by their ancestoral

faith were slain with the sword"
Kol (Modern Aligarh) 20,000 prisoners were taken and made slaves
'Three bastions were raised as high as heaven with their heads and their carcases became food for the beasts of

prey
Kalinjar - 50,000 prisoners were taken as slaves
Varnasi or Kasi (Benaras) : Kamil-ut-Tawarikh of Ibn Asir records,
"The slaughter of Hindus (at Varanasi) was immense; none were spared except women and children,(who were

taken into slavery) and the carnage of men went on until the earth was weary."
Sultan Firuz Shah Tughlaq
(from Insha-i-Mahry by Amud Din Abdullah bin Mahru)
Delhi: -a punishment in detail (from Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi)
"A report was brought to the Sultan than there was in Delhi an old Brahman who persisted in publicly performing

the worship of idols in his house and that people of the city, both Muslims and Hindus used to resort to his house

to worship the idol. The Brahman had constructed a wooden tablet which was covered within and without with

paintings of demons and other objects. An order was accordingly given to the Brahman and was brought before

Sultan.The true faith was declared to the Brahman and the right course pointed out. but he refused to accept it. A

pile was risen on which the Kaffir with his hands and legs tied was thrown into and the wooden tablet on the top.

The pile was lit at two places his head and his feet. The fire first reached him in the feet and drew from him a cry

and then fire completley enveloped him. Behold Sultan for his strict adherence to law and rectitude."
Delhi : (after Hindus paid the toleration tax (zar-i zimmiya) and poll-tax(jizya) they were foolish enough to build

their temples.so...) "Under divine guidance I (Sultan) destroyed these temples and I killed the leaders of these

infedility and others I subjected to stripes and chastisement "
Gohana (Haryana):
"Some Hindus had erected a new idol-temple in the village of Kohana and the idolaters used to assemble there

and perform their idolatrous rites. These people were seized and brought before me. I ordered that the perverse

conduct of these leaders of this wickedness be punished by publicly abd that they should be put to deathe before

the gate of the palace."
Jajnagar:(Expedition objectives as stated by Sultan: Source:Ainn-ul-Mulk)
massacring the unbelievers, demolishing their temples, hunting the elephants, getting a glimpse of their

enchanting country
I LOVE WHERE IN THE MIDST OF MURDER HE ACTUALLY TALKED ABOUT THE ENCHANTING COUNTRY - sort of

nazi like isn't it.
Orissa:'Sirat-i-Firoz Shahi' records his expedition with the following words:
"Nearly 100,000 men of Jajnagar had taken refuge with their women, children, kinsmen and relations The

swordsmen of Islam turned the island into a basin of blood by the massacre of the unbelievers. Women with

babies and pregnant ladies were haltered, manacled, fettered and enchained, and pressed as slaves into service

in the house of every soldier."
The Jihads of Shihabuddin,
the Sultankalka of Ghur

Around 1140, the Islamized Turko-Mongol chiefs of the Shansabanid tribe occupied Ghor in Afghanistan. Initially it

was a vassal of the Ghaznavid Sultans, but around 1130 it came into conflict with them, after one of the leading

Shansabanid nobles was murdered by the Ghaznavid Sultan, Bahram. A ferocious war ensued between the

Sultans of Ghor and Ghazni, till Alla-ud-din Ghori invaded Ghazni with his entire cavalry and wrested it from

Bahram. Alla-ud-din sacked the Indian spoils that Mahmud had placed there, massacred the city’s population in a

7-day killing spree and subsequently burnt it down. The next Ghaznavid Sultan, Khushro Maliq was driven out of

Afghanistan by a coalition of Oghuz Turks and the Ghorids in 1157, and the Oghuz took Ghazni. The sons of

Alla-ud-din, Ghiyas-ud-din Mu’azz-ud-din Ghori and Shihab-ud-din Muhammad Ghori defeated the Oghuz and

annexed Ghazni in 1174. Ghiyas-ud-din, crowned himself Sultan, and appointed his brother Sultankalka.

Shihab-ud-din was assigned the task of extending the kingdom to the East and he naturally gravitated towards

India. 13 bloody campaigns that ravaged Northern India followed:

• Early in 1175 he invaded Punjab and sacked and burned Uch...(1)

• In 1178 he advanced south and marched towards Gujarat, but here the Indians acted quickly and rallying under

the western chAlukya king MUlarAja II routed the Islamic forces completely forcing him to retreat...(2)

• In 1179 Ghori sent a message to PrithivirAja chAhamAna to make common cause with him against the

Chalukyas. Prithivaraj however, wise disregarding his foolish minister, kadambavAsa’s advise to make a common

cause with Ghori, preemptively attacked NaDDula and reconquered it from the Moslems.

• Shihab recovered in 1180 and invaded Sindh and ravaged the population carrying away much loot...(3)

• Then Shihabuddin Muhammad, quickly followed it up in 1181 and 1184 with two invasions of Lavapura (Lahore)

accompanied with much slaughter...(4+5)

• In 1186 he invaded the Ghaznavid occupied Punjab and defeated the Sultan Khushro Maliq and wrested

Punjab...(6)

• 1188 The Ghur Sultankalka invaded the ChAhamAna kingdom and sacked the fort of Tabarhindah killing the

Hindu male populace and raping the women. Hindu refugees flocked around Delhi alarming the ChAhamAnas...(7)

• 1191 PrithivirAj advanced to meet Shihabuddin’s raid and routed him in the great battle of Tarai. While the

Muslims suffered a crushing defeat, the Indians failed to butcher them to man and allowed Shihab to get away

unharmed. He fled back to Central Asia leaving Punjab completely undefended...(8)

• 1191 PrithivirAj attacked Tabarhindah and took it back from the Muslims. Here the biggest mistake of the Hindus

was not to reconquer and arm Punjab suitably.

• 1192 Shihab returned and sacked Tabarhindah again. This was followed by the second battle of Tarai, the

ChAhamAna army was crushed and Prithiviraj was captured and brutally tortured to death...(9)

• 1192 the Ghur Sultankalka made a second trust towards Ajayamerupura (Ajmer) and sacked it smashing Hindu

temples and a Hindu university in course of this invasion. The Hindus captured in this expedition caused slave

prices to fall to a few Dirhams in the Muslim markets...(10)

• 1193 The sultankalka invaded Kannauj and slew the GAhadwala king Jayachandra. He followed this up with an

invasion of vArANsipura slaughtering Hindus with great savagery and desecrating the holy city...(11+12)

After this, his viceroy Kutub-ud-din (also his lover?) and the Turkish adventurer Ikhtiyaruddin Khalji furthered the

violence of Islam in the land of Hind. Meanwhile Shihab’s brother died in Ghazna and he crowned himself Sultan

and immediately launched himself into another Jihad on the infidels of Hindustan in 1206. The exact course of this

campaign is not clear. While on the North-western reaches of the Sindhu, he was ambushed by the Khokar chiefs

and shot down by an arrow...(13). Thus ended the carrier of the Moslem brigand who brought misery to the whole

of northern India through his 13 invasions.

Aurangazeb (1658 - 1707 )
Aurangzeb considered himself "The Scourge Of The Kafirs" (non-believers) and closed Hindu schools and libraries.

In his lifetime he destroyed more than 10,000 Hindu, Buddhist and Jam temples and often erected mosques in

their stead.3 In 1669 in Agra he had hacked off the limbs of the recalcitrant Hindu King Gokla and in 1672 several

thousand revolting Hindus were slaughtered in Mewat.

From: Maasi-i-Alamgiri

Issued general order to destroy all centers of Hindu learnings including Varnasi and destroyed the temple at

Mathura and renamed it as Islamabad
In Khandela (rajastan) he killed 300 Hindus in one day for they resisted the destruction of their temple.
In Udaipur all Hindus of the town were killed as they vowed to defend the temple of Udaipur from destruction.
172 temples were destroyed in Udaipur.
66 temples were pulled down in Amber. All Hindu clerks were dismissed from the office of the Imperial empire.
In Pandhpur , Maharashtra, the Emperor ordered and executed the destruction of temple and butchering of cows

within the temple.
Aurangazeb also tortured to death the disciples of Guru Tegh bahadur before his death and also killed Guru. Guru

Tegh Bahadur - the pride of Hindustan was martyred for he spoke for the persecuted Hindus of Hindustan.

Aurangazeb also killed Guru Gobind singh's two children aged less than ten by walling them alive for not accepting

the choice of Islam. In Punjab Muslim governors killed hundreds of Sikh children and made Sikh women eat the

flesh of their own killed children. Banda Bahadur another great Sikh martyr before being torturd to death was also

made to eat the flesh of his own children killed before his eyes. Any Muslim bringing the head of a dead Sikh was

also awarded money

Zahiru'd-Din Muhammed Babur (1526 - 1520 )
Babur's Own Words on Killing Hindus:
For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer,
I battled infidels and Hindus,
I determined to become a maryr
Thank God I became a Killer of Non-Muslims!

From Baburnama, the Memoires of Babur Himself:
In AH 934 (1538 ) I attacked Chanderi and by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours. We got the infidels

slaughtered and the place which had be Daru'l-Harb (nation of non-muslim) for years was made into a

Daru'l-Islam (muslim nation).

Guru Nanak on Babur's atrocities:
Source:Rag Asa Guru Nanak Dev witnessed first hand the atrocities Babur committed on Hindus and recorded

them in his poems. He says: Having attacked Khuraasaan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does

not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the

people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? pg (360)

On the condition of Hindu women in Babur's monster rule:
Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermillion - those heads were shaved with

scissors, and their throats were choked with dust.They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit

near the palaces.... ropes were put around their necks, and their strings of pearls were broken. Their wealth and

youthful beauty, which gave them so much pleasure, have now become their enemies. The order was given to the

soldiers, who dishonored them, and carried them away. If it is pleasing to God's Will, He bestows greatness; if is

pleases His Will, He bestows punishment pg(417-18)

On the nature of Mughal rule under Babur:
First, the tree puts down its roots, and then it spreads out its shade above. The kings are tigers, and their officials

are dogs; they go out and awaken the sleeping people to harass them. The public servants inflict wounds with

their nails. The dogs lick up the blood that is spilled. Source:Rag Malar, (pg.1288)

From an article by Dr. Harsh Narain on Muslim Testimony (Indian Express 2/26/90):
Since the establishment of Zahiru'd-Din Ghazi's rule, officers and religious leaders spread Islam vigorously

desteroying the Hindu faith. We cleared the filth of Hinduism from Faizabad and Avadh.

Jahangir (1605 - 1628)
Source: Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri
Though in the beginning of his rule Jahangir followed the humanistic rule of his father Akbar the great -the policy

of sulehkul even issued a proclamation against the forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam, he revoked Akbar's

orders that those who have been forcibly converted from Islam could return to Hinduism. He severely punished

Kaukab, Sharif and Abdul Latif for showing inclination to Hinduism. He also prohibited the free inter-marriage

customs between Hindus and Muslims in Kashmir. Hindus marrying Muslim girls and those who had already

married were given a hoice between Islam and death. Many were killed.

Jahangir's torture of Guru Arjun Dev ji: Guru was imprisoned at Lahore fort. He was chained to a post in an open

place exposed to the sun from morning to evening in the summer months of May to June. Below his feet a heap of

sand was put which burnt like a furnace. Boiling water was poured on his naked body at intervals. His body was

covered with blisters all over. In this agony Guru used to utter.

Tera Kiya Metha lage, naam padarath Nanak mange(whatever you ordain appears sweet. I supplicate for the gift

of name)

The Guru was ordercd to be executed. In addition a fine of Rupees two lakhs was imposed on him. Some

historians say that, as a measure of clemency at the intervention of Mian Mir, this fine was imposed in lieu of the

sentence of death. The Sikhs offered to pay the fine themselves but the Guru forbade them to do so. He replied to

the Emperor, "Whatever money I have is for the poor, the friendless and the stranger. If thou ask for money thou

mayest take what I have; but if thou ask for it by way of fine, I shall not give thee even a Kaurz (penny)." The

Guru accepted death by torture.

Shah Jahan (1658 - 1707)
In 1632 Shah jahan ordered that all Hindu temples recently erected or in the course of construction should be

razed to the ground. In Benares alone seventy six temples were destroyed. Christian churches at Agra and Lahore

were demolished. In a manner befitting the Prophet he had ten thousand inhabitants executed by being "blown up

with powder, drowned in water or burnt by fire". Four thousand were taken captive to Agra where they were

tortured to try to convert them to Islam. Only a few apostacised, the remainder were trampled to death by

elephants, except for the younger women who went to harems.

Shahjahan put enormous eonomic pressure on Hindus particularly peasents to become Muslims. The criminals too

were forced to become Muslims.

Source: Badshah Nama, Qazinivi & Badshah Nama , Lahori

When Shuja was appointed as governor of Kabul he carried on a ruthless war in the Hindu territory beyond

Indus...The sword of Islam yielded a rich crop of converts....Most of the women (to save their honour) burnt

themselves to death. Those captured were distributed among Muslim Mansabdars.

Source: Manucci, Storia do Mogor vol-II p.451 & Travels of Frey Sebastian Manrique

Under Shahjahan peasents were compelled to sell their women and children to meet their revenue

requirements....The peasents were carried off to various Markets and fairs to be sold with their poor unhappy

wives carrying their small children crying and lamenting. According to Qaznivi Shahjagan had decreed they should

be sold to Muslim lords.

and before you say that the christians did it the same way - here is their early history.

HERE IS HOW THE CHRISTIANS DID IT

Circa 33AD: Traditional date for Jesus Christ, Jewish religious leader, crucified. (C40AD?)

45-47AD: A famine strikes Judea. Christians in Antioch send relief to the church in Judea. THe procurator of Judea 46-48 is Tiberius Julius Alexander. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline.)

46-48AD: On the first Christian missionary journey, Paul and Barnabas travel through Cyprus (home island of Barnabas) and Asia Minor, (Acts 13-14), preaching in Salamis and Paphos, even teaching the new Roman proconsul. With them is cousin of Barnabas, John Mark. Paul preaches in the synagogue in Antioch of Pisidia, but conflict arose over his teaching. But Paul and Barnabas begin teaching Gentiles and found a mixed Gentile-Jewish church. In 47AD, Paul and Barnabas establish mixed churches at Derbe in Lycaonia, Iconium, and Lystra. Paul heals a man in Lystra and the locals try to worship he and Barnabas as embodiments of Greek gods Hermes and Zeus. Later the people turn against Paul and try to stone him to death. in 48AD, Paul and Barnabas revisit the new churches to strengthen them before returning to Antioch. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline.)

49AD: Jerusalem: A conference is held of Apostles and other Christian leaders. Are non-Jewish Christians required to observe Jewish matters of Law. Leaders are Peter, John and James brother of Jesus, and they decide that Paul is correct in not requiring Gentiles to observe Jewish Law, while Peter is correct in preaching to Jews to keep their Law. The same arguments surface later in Antioch, but Paul now disagrees with position of Peter, Barnabas and other Jewish Christians. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline.)

49-52AD: Paul and Silas (Silvanus), travel Asia Minor and Greece establishing churches (The Second Missionary Journey). (Acts 15:40-18:21) Timothy from Lystra joins Paul and becomes a close associate. Paul and Silas preach in Phrygia and Galatia in Central Asia Minor, establishing Gentile churches. Paul in Galatia has an unknown ailment. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline)

50AD: A written collection of Jesus' teachings and shorter sayings is assembled (it is not said where, in Jerusalem?). This collection is later used by the writers of the Gospels. Paul and Silas move to Europe and to Philippi of Macedonia. A Jewish woman, a merchant in purple cloth, Lydia, is converted. Opposition to Paul grows, he and Silas are arrested, beaten, jailed, forced to depart the city. In Thessalonica and Beroae, Paul and Silas start more mixed churches and apposition again drives them from towns. Paul preaches in Athens but evidently has no success there. He once addresses Greek philosophers in the council known as The Areopagus. In 50-51AD, Paul and Silas are in Corinth for 18 months, converting a head of a synagogue and Gentiles. Paul lives and works with Aquila and Priscilla, Jewish Christians who have moved from Rome. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline.)

51AD: Paul writes 1 Thessalonians and possibly 2 Thessalonians, the earliest writings of The New Testament. Paul is brought to trial by Jews before Gallio, governor of the area. But Gallio refuses to hear the case. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline.)

52-56AD: On Paul's Third Missionary Journey he works in Ephesus and travels through Macedonia and Greece. He visits churches in Galatia and returns to Ephesus. Between 52-55AD he works with Ephesus, and sends other missionaries to surrounding cities. In 52AD writes a now-lost letter to Corinthians. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline.)

52AD: Paul travels with Aquila and Priscilla to Ephesus. Paul leaves them and journeys to Palestine, then to Antioch. Apollos of Alexandria a follower of John the Baptist, arrives in Ephesus and is taught by Priscilla and Aquila. Apollos becomes an eloquent Christian preacher and goes to Corinth. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline)

53AD: Herod Agrippa II, son of Agrippa I, is granted rule of northeastern Palestine by Claudius in Rome. Paul writes his letter Galations to the church he founded in Galatia. He has enemies, those who have told the Galations they must keep the Jewish Laws. The church in Corinth asks Paul about marriage relationships, food from pagan sacrifices, manifestations of the Holy Spirit, etc. In 54AD, Paul writes Corinthians I which is delivered by his assistant, Titus. In 54-55AD, Paul finds that new Christian teachers have come to Corinth criticizing his message. Paul writers 2 Corinthians. In 54AD, Paul is evidently imprisoned in Ephesus; he writes his letter to Philippian church. In 55AD, Ephesians devoted to goddess Artemis protest against Paul and he travels north to Macedonia. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline.)

55-56AD: Paul winters in Corinth and writes a letter to church in Rome explaining his teachers and asking for their help when he travels to Spain. In 56AD he travels to Macedonia and Asia Minor then to Jerusalem, with money he has collected for the poor in the church at Jerusalem. But crowds in the Temple threaten Paul, he is arrested by Roman soldiers and Jerusalem authorities bring charges of sacrilege against him. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline)

50aAD and after 62AD after the martyrdom of James, Writing of Gospel of Thomas. (Date from Crossman, p. 427)

55-56AD: Writing of Writing of Letter of Paul to the Romans. (Date from Crossman, p. 427)

Winter 53-54AD: Writing of First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians. (Date from Crossman, p. 427)

Winter 52-53AD Writing of Letter of Paul to the Galatians (Date from Crossman, p. 427)

Late 50AD: Writing of First Letter of Paul to the Thessalonians. (Date from Crossman, p. 427)

57AD: A plot is discovered against life of Paul so Romans transfer him to Caesarea, where he is examined by procurator Felix, who makes no decision. In 57-59AD, Paul is in prison in Caesarea, till Felix is replaced by Festus. In 59-62AD, procurator of Judea is Porcius Festus. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline)

59AD: Procurator of Judea Festus suggests Paul be returned to Jerusalem, but Paul appears to Caesar, that he be sent to Rome for trial. Paul is given an audience before Festus, Agrippa II and his sister Bernice. Paul is sent with military guard on ship to Rome which breaks up on the island of Malta, but all survive. In 59-60AD, Paul winters on Malta and arrives in Rome in early spring. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline

60-62AD: Paul in Rome is under house arrest, and writes letters to Colossians, a lost letter to the Laodiceans, to Philemon, and to the Ephesians. It is thought that perhaps Paul was beheaded in Rome by Nero in 62AD, and later, perhaps after the fire of 54AD. Others suggest Paul was released and went not to Spain as he had planned, but back to Asia Minor and Crete. Some feel Paul was imprisoned twice from 62AD to 68AD. The Pastoral Letters 1 and Timothy 2 and Titus would date from this period. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline)

62AD: Killing of James the Just at the Temple, Jerusalem.

63-64AD: Rome: Apostle Peter in Rome asks Silvanus to compose a letter in his name to Christians in Asia Minor. Tradition has it that Peter is crucified upside down during the persecutions by Nero. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline)

64AD: Rome: A great fire burns for nine days from 18 July. Nero blames the Christians and begins to cruelly persecute them. "the first official condemnation of Christianity by the Roman government". (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline) The first Roman persecution of Christians begins about now.

75AD: Likely date for writing of The Letter to the Hebrews. Author is unknown but might have been Apollos, Priscilla, Barnabas or Luke. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline)

85AD: The Gospel of Matthew is written.

85-90AD: The Gospel of Luke and Acts of the Apostles are written.

90-95AD: The Gospel of John is completed.

95AD: Gospel writer John is exiled on island of Patmos. He records apocalyptic visions and sends them to seven Christian churches in western Asia Mintore. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline)

95AD: The guide to Christian church order called "Teaching" or Didache, is written about now. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline)

Early90sAD: Date for writing of Gospel of Luke.

Late 90sAD: Date for writing of Epistle of Barnabas.

100AD: The Christian Letters called 1, 2 and 3 John are written about now.

100AD: 1 Clement is written from the Christian Church at Rome to the Church at Corinth.

100AD: The Gospel of Thomas is written in Greek. It is now known only in its Coptic translation.

100AD - early C2nd: Writing of Gospel of John.

100AD approx: Date for Writing of Revelation/Apocalypse of St John. (Date from Crossman, p. 431)

107AD: Ignatius as Bishop of Antioch is arrested and sent to Rome to die in arena. While travelling in Asia Minor he writes to Christians at six churches, Ephesus, Magnesia, Tralles, Philadelphia, Smyrna and Rome. Also to Polycarp, the Bishop of Smyrna. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline)

110AD: Writing of Letter of Ignatius, Bishop of Syrian Antioch as he is taken to Rome to martyrdom.

115AD: New religion, Christianity, spreads quickly in Eastern Syria and in Northern Mesopotamia. (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline) Rome copes with a Jewish rebellion in Cyrene.

100-115AD: Some scholars feel that the (Christian) Pastoral Letters are possibly composed in this period by a follower of Paul (of Tarsus). (Item from Thomas Robinson, The Bible Timeline)

THERE IS MORE BUT NOT ONE ARMY OR WAR IN THEIR FIRST 300 YEARS.

DO YOU SEE A DIFFERENCE?

639AD: Invasion of Egypt by Moslem, Amru.

To 640AD: Arab forces take Palestinian cities such as Dara, Caesarea, Antioch, the isthmus of Suez. Iraq was taken by 637AD. In 639, Egypt was invaded by Moslem Arabs. In 641, Babylon (Old Cairo) was taken. Alexandria was recaptured in 645. By 700AD, Roman Africa was under Moslem control.

640AD: Islam, The Arabs invade Egypt and burn the library of Alexandria . However, the Arabs preserve the use of engineering skills known in Egypt at the time, while Europe remains ignorant.

610AD-641AD: Emperor Heraclius fails to stem the Arab threat and loses Africa, Spain and Northern Italy.

641AD: Islam: Battle of Nehavend, great victory for Islam over Persians, and many Persian nobility come to terms with Islam. Yezdegerd the king flees to a remote corner and holds a vestige of power till about 651-652. Alexandria is captured.

642AD: Islamic invasion of Egypt.

644AD: Islam: Death of Omar succeeded by Othman, a weak ruler who allows Islamic power to fall into the hands of the Koreish nobility.

647AD: Islam: Invasion of Africa by Abdallah, Arabs expel the Romans.

649AD: Islam: Invasion of Cyprus in 649, Conquest of Aradus in 650, Conquest of Armenia in 652, Conquest of Rhodes in 654, in 655 is defeat of emperor Constans by Mohammedans in naval battle off Mt Phoenix in Lycia.

Circa 650AD: Revelations of Mohammed are written; they become The Koran.

656AD: Islam: Murder of Othman by a party in opposition to growing worldliness of Islam. Leader of the opposition, and son-in-law of Mohammed the Prophet, is Ali, who succeeds. Battle of the Camel. Moawiyah, governor of Syria, heads the opponents of Ali, and incites them to revenge.

657AD: Islam: Ali invades northern Syria. Battle of Siffin. The theocratic faction rebels against Ali.

658AD: Islam: Decision of the Umpires, Ali and Moawiyah, the latter wins. Peace made with the Byzantine Empire. Egypt conquered for Moawiyah.

659: Islam: Moslem conquest of Egypt.

are we seeing a pattern here?

629AD: Arabia, Mohammedan war against the Greek subjects in Arabia.

629AD: Emperor Heraclius in Constantinople receives embassies from as far away as France and India, and surprisingly, also a letter (as an apocryphal legend) from an Arabian chieftain and a Prophet of God, Mohammed, suggesting that he join a new faith.

630AD: Arabia, Mohammed moves against Mecca and conquers it. War with the Hawazin. Rapid spread of Islam. The Ka'aba in Mecca, a repository of idols, is cleansed of idols and becomes a building deeply revered by Moslems.

632AD: Death of Mohammed. The Prophet's successor is his father-in-law, Abu Bakr (Abu Bekr) who is chosen Caliph, or representative, and pursues an expansionist policy. Persians are expelled from Bahrein. An army under Khalid sets out against the Byzantine Empire. An Arab army moves up the south coast of Palestine and takes Gaza. Abu Bakr reduces a revolt in Nejd and Yemen, and defends Medina.
634AD: Moslem conquest of Yemen.

635AD: Islam: Moslem capture of Damascus. by 636 are added conquests of Emesa, Heliopolis, Chalcis, Beroae, Edessa, Battle of Yermuk. Heraclius abandons Syria to the Moslems.

636AD: Kingdom of Ghassan (300-636AD): Founded about 300AD by Thalaba, the first to take the name of king. His successors rule until 636, when Djabala VI surrenders to the Mohammedans.

637AD: Arabia: Middle East, Battle of Cadesia, or Kadisiya, Moslem victory over the Persians. Omar captures Jerusalem, then Aleppo and Antioch.

637AD and later: Moslem missionary expansionism had meant that Moslems had intervened at Jerusalem from 637AD. Moslems, partly due to their existing maritime skills, were actually invited into Portugal to help with problems by 711. Later they occupied Toledo. They were on Crete by 826, taking the island from the Byzantines, another obviously maritime adventure. Moslems had intervened in Sind (India) by the early Eighth Century, but they did not dominate Northern India till the Eleventh Century.

637AD: Sasanid power in Iran is broken by Moslem Arabs.

638AD: Mesopotamia is conquered by Islam who also take Tarsus and Diar-Bekr.

the casue of terror in the middle east is islam, the cult of death, that everyone wants to pretend is a religion.
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and practice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."
or the islamics crying over the crusades when they started them. here is a little short history about that:
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.
so tell us in what context do you put the war like history of islam, considering that they started the war before anyone ever knew about them. or why there are no longer any jews in mecca?

ISLAM - IN THE BEGINING:

622-623AD: Mecca-Medina: Mohammed with followers flees opposition in Mecca and go to Medina. The first mosque is built. Mohammed becomes a warrior.

625AD: Arabia: Battle of Ohod, victory of the Meccans.

624AD: Arabia: First battle for the faith with the Meccans at Bedr. Victory of Mohammed.

628AD: Mohammedan war against the Jews of Khaibar.

killing civilians is not always wrong.

Rory, I would like to rephrase your argument with a few choice substitutions:

There is no defensible moral position that supports the use of atomic bombings that target civilians. Even if every ridiculous charge ever invented and leveled at Japan were taken as true for the sake of argument, blowing up Hiroshima and Nagasaki would not be justified. The Americans and, by extension, their Christian fanatic minders, have long since lost any credibility or claim to morality.

Interesting, eh? Simply by substituting a few words, one can easily see the hypocrisy of such an argument. In these two deliberate bombings of civlilians alone, the Christian US was responsible for far more slaughter than what you refer to as the uncivilized Palestinians. Christian Nazi Germany perpetrated the Holocaust as well, so to argue that Christians have been more chivalrous in their conduct of war is quite ludicrous.

Further, you dismiss as "ridiculous" the claims of Israeli bad actions, which means one of two things: either you are remarkably uninformed, or are lying. The history of Israeli atrocities in this is extensively well-documented, as any quick visit to Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and B'Tsalem, which is an ISRAELI human rights organization that has extensively catalogued these "ridiculous" accusations, as have AI and HRW.

Here is the link for B'Tsalem's website, so that you can peruse some of those "ridiculous" accusations, documented by Israelis:
http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Index.asp

There are two sides to every coin. The slaughter of civilians is always wrong, but to act as one side is blameless in the Israeli Palestinian struggle is to exhibit ignorance and hypocrisy on an astonishing scale.

We have all enjoyed the satire and mixed metaphors provided by the last three posters: (1) American-sewn fruits, (2) breeding stem cells, and (3) the 24/7 judaism final solution. Each is funnier than Ms. Andoni's jihadist-on-a bicycle parable.

Judaism is the real terror religion. What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to drop 2-ton bombs on ap't buildings full of civilians? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to massacre entire villages of non-Jews? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to rape non-Jews? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to use heavy artillery to shell schools of non-Jews? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to liquidate entire ethnic groups? What is it about Judaism that Jews want to steal other peoples' lands? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to bomb the hospitals of non-Jews? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to fire missiles into ambulances? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to steal US atomic secrets and sell them to the USSR? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to attack US naval vessels and machine-gun the life rafts full of US sailors? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to invade other countries to annex their land? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to bomb hotels full of innocent people? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to kill peacemakers? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to threaten the lives of US diplomats? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to kill 80-year old women in wheel chairs? What is it about Judaism that makes Jews want to hijack airliners? What is it abut Judaism that makes Jews want to demonize non-Jews? What is it about Judaism that teaches Jews to have utter contempt for non-Jews?

Terror in the Middle East started with Judaism's Final Solution of the Canaanite Problem. Keeping up with Judaism's long history of genocide, it now extends to Judaism's Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem. And rest assured, Judaism would impose its Final Solution to its American Problem if they felt that to be to their advantage.

LET'S NOT FOOL OURSELVES AND TURN A BLIND EYE TO THE REAL CAUSE OF ALL THIS HAVOC IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND IN THE WHOLE WORLD.IT'S THE CREATION OF THE ILLEGAL STATE OF ISRAEL ON THE RUINS OF PALESTINE.THIS IS THE STEM CELL THAT HAS BEEN BREEDING ALL CHAOS AND TERROR WORLDWIDE.UNLESS THIS ISSUE IS HANDLED ADEQUATELY AND ALL PALESTINIAN REFUGEES RETURN HOME,WE WILL BE FOOLING OURSELVES AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT INVISIBLE GHOSTS THAT WE CALL TERRORISTS.

what america sown during afghanistan in pakistan now that started to giving fruits.now there is no need to america to intervene in pakistan.man like musharraf is enough to destroy pakistan.
other hand the lal mosque incident provided a case to hung dictator musharraf by coming ruler of pakistan like saddam hussain of iraq .

Greek woman,Dear Lamis Andonis,

What you write is the third class demagogism.

To Fromlebanon,

Three of 4 righteously guided Caliph had been murdered.Where is the Righteous?
Who killed the grandchild of Prohpet?

What were the excuses of the suicidal Saudis who crashed into the World Trade Center?

Not "occupation", nor poverty, nor poor education.

What Ms Andoni wants us to believe, is that they had no alternative.

Bah! Gahndi showed us another way.

The Muslim cult of 'death to infidels' trumps all.

Yeah this kind of amazes me how the Post let's some Al Jazeera representative post their opinions on why they think it's okay to hate the United States. I really think it's time for us to step it up a notch and take out Iran and turn it into a parking lot and then anybody else that gets in our way. Iran has interfered with our efforts In Iraq and is killing soldiers from the United States.

Yep that's what they teach those kids. Hate the United States and use cartoon characters to do it. So there is a very sick distorted attitude that is put into these kids in childhood to hate the Western World.

There is no defensible moral position that supports the use of suicide bombings that target civilians. Even if every ridiculous charge ever invented and leveled at Israel were taken as true for the sake of argument, blowing up pizzerias and weddings would not be justified. The Palestinians and, by extension, their Islamic fanatic minders, have long since lost any credibility or claim to morality.

And, indeed, such claims are just cover anyway for gullible Europeans. Scratch the surface of the typical suicide bomber and you'll find someone who just had the misfortune of running afoul of Hamas or Fatah and had no other choice. Recent examples of would-be suicide bombers "fighting for Palestine" include a mother who was caught in an affair with a senior Hamas member and got the lovely choice between 1) death by stoning and 2) death by suicide vest, another woman who was being treated at an ISRAELI burn clinic but was convinced by Hamas she would never get married due to her burns and should blow up her own treating physicians, and finally a mentally handicapped young boy who barely even made it to his targetted Israeli crossing before bursting into tears (better than shrapnel anyway). All of these accounts are readily found on Google and lay waste to any claims of "resistance" to "Israeli apartheid".

The Arabs have been legendarily inept at destroying Israel. Their repeated drubbings are found in all history books. The resort to suicide bombings is merely a combination of social penance for powerless suckers, and the only way to inflict any real casualties (the logic being well, Israel is going to destroy us in open warfare anyway, so let's at least blow up some kids). It's absurd. If the Palestinians had taken a page from Ghandi's nonviolent resistance manual they would have been free 50 years ago. Instead, they have converted their "nation" into a sadistic mix of Islamic fanaticism and hopeless despair through grotesque tactics like suicide bombers. Even these have, ahem, backfired in that instead of swaying opinion against Israel, they reveal how completely unworthy of statehood the Palestinians are. In fact, the only way to civilize the area at this point is for Israel to conquer the entire thing. Great work, Hamas.

first mickey mouse teaches little children to hate and murder and in the next one the islamic scum pretend the character is beaten to death by a jew who wants his land. the calls after this last one, where little children actually think it happened shows that breeding hate is about the only thing islamics do well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZEGsnWZKh8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iDMta_VBdLQ

and we still pretend that islam is a religion why?

Let’s examine “forget that the large corrupt leaders he seems to attack are the very thugs his gov't installed or supports in order to bring stability”

Exactly so, I agree we support the status quo because we believe they’re the best that the Middle East has to offer, which is sad.

But the West has neither the omnipotence, or the competence or the unity to be the puppet masters you imagine. Consider that we want bases, but the Mighty Phillipines said no, and we said, OK. Consider that we wanted no upset in our gold or diamond trade in South Africa, but Mandela said, the old system is over, and we said,OK, and we always admired your bravery. We are afraid of an Oriental tide of billions, and yet they sell us all our computers and toys and even toothpaste with antifreeze in it.

Tell me besides oil, what does the Middle East make? Tell me beside jihadist texts and the great Al Jazeera, what books does it write? Tell us, not your hates, but what hopes do Arabs have of opportunity and peace?

do you think that the koran and the murdering history of islam has anything to do with how islamics view the world? or maybe its how mommy taught them.
well here is mommy and her children, followed by the koran and a brief showing of how islam stole by force the area they like to call the pal lands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw2EisVqKZ4&mode=related&search=
48 seconds into this is a little girl of 3 or 4 who has been taught to hate jews.
and in another part the children are told to go out and kill jews.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbHVEGnYD8&mode=related&search= and 45 seconds into this one a 2 year old says jews are apes and pigs and must be killed.

now for islam and the koran:

The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and practice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."
or the islamics crying over the crusades when they started them. here is a little short history about that:
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.
so tell us in what context do you put the war like history of islam, considering that they started the war before anyone ever knew about them. or why there are no longer any jews in mecca?

isnit it about time - after being attacked by isalm for 1400 years for the purpose of forcing islam on the rest of us, that we finally decided that islam is not a religion but a terrorist organization that needs to be eliminated.

dear xmarksthespot an d shane,

Did you ever realize the the enemy(al qaeda, hezbollah, hamas, etc.) uses innocent civilians as human sheilds. thats what hezbollah did last year and thats why so many civilians died. Also some of it was faked by hezbollah for propaganda and, to inspire liberal wackos like you guys to once again bash Israel for the wrong-doings of its enemies. Don't get me wrong here I think that Israel is FAR from perfect. The U.S. military and its coalition allies never deliberatly target civilians. Civilians die as a result of a U.S. operation because "Freedom fighter Mohhamad" takes a few innocent men, women, and children into a house with him after he realizes the he can't escape American justice. Or because of bad intelligence. No one in our military gives an order to simply bomb a house that has civilians in it for no good reason. If they do then they are brought to justice. So don't give me that liberal crap about how U.S. soldiers are murderers.

"it is intersting how we recognize George Washignton as a freedome figther and those who fight in palistine as criminals ..."

Neither George Washington or his continental army ever directly targeted civilians did they?

What really amazes me is the Washington Post allowing you to post this article of nonsense. Your underlying tones aren't about terrorism are why we should understand it. Plain and simply you just hate the United States. Why don't you just admit it. We are the bad guys and everything that is done against us is justified. You write that Pervez Musharraf has created an acchillies heel because he is taking a no nonsense approach to militants. He should be applauded for his commitment to safeguarding his country and instead you bash him for it.

Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't Al Jazeera an anti American entity that hates the Western World?Aren't you the same network that had cartoons that were shown to little kids saying that you should hate Americans? If i'm not mistaken Al Jazeera is banned from any television set in the United States? If so i can see why. Now we have to understand why people are terrorists? What we need to do is find out where all these terrorists cowards are coming from and take appropriate actions against them for their crimes and bring them to justice!

Thank you Ms. Andoni for your thoughtful analysis of Islamic suicide bombers' background and its genesis.

By killing innocents people killing themselves, making themselves the ultimate weapon to fight for what they believe, they make real the suffering of their people.

No matter what we may label them, their existence is real and their number is rising. Billion of dollars and hundred thousands of soldiers can't fight their existence. When all have been said, we must understand that war isn't the answer for the problem of suicide bombers. Only peace, mutual respect and cooperation for a common better future can be the answer.

REading the last excerpt in your article you feel that it was unjustified to siege the Mosque in Pakistan the way they did. Why is that? They had no choice. It's amazing how these militias claim they believe in a cause but one of the leaders tried to sneak out in women's clothing. So much for his bravery and belief in his cause. That's why he was trying to sneak away from the whole thing he created. But there is a true example of terrorism and the very people involved. They puff their chests out and get in front of media and TV cameras and make threats to the United States but then they go hide in their little caves and sneak away from the very situations they created . Cowards! That's all there is to it. The militants at the Mosque in Pakistan got what they deserved. They didn't comply so they were taken care of. Why didn't he fight with the rest of his militia? Instead he chose to sneak out. But that sums up what most of us know and believe about suicide bombers and terroists. They are cowards and lowlifes that want attention from the media.

"In contemporary Arab history, martyrdom has been associated with nationalist struggles for liberation from colonialism."
------------------------
So blowing up decent people who support the Palestinian struggle for justice and a homeland is acceptable? Nonsense! What a double-standard of morality! The Israelis are monsters for killing civilians but it's O.K. for Palestinians to do it. Murder is murder, and it's wrong.

Ben Graham is correct about the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank: yes, I'd like to see Israel give them back to Palestinians, but there is a reason Israel occupied them, isn't there? The Arab armies were going to wipe Israel off the map- killing lots of people - and Ms. Andoni approves of armed fighting in self defense, as she says in her article - - so she must approve of Israel's actions in 1967 to defend itself.

I'm not a Zionist, and I don't approve of Israel's actions in many cases, and I want a Palestinian state. But blowing up and firing rockets at civilian targets is immoral and an act of war. Having two-different standards of morality for different groups of people is unacceptable.

Thanks for all of your comments. I am saddened that some comments reveal prejudice against Muslims.
Far from jUStifying killings , we should be couragaous enough to explore the roots of the problems.
There iS no justification for killing innocent people regardles of the caue. there is a different between analysing the conditons that results in such acts and justifying death .
if we are serious about peace we do have to aknowledge the POWERS at play : repression and opression of reckless power breed terrorism.
Theere is no doubt that dark ideologieis that see the world in a very narrow (us gainst them) tunr the opressed into destructive forces that inflict damage on themselves and the others.
But the great Bursh Motto of "You are either with us or with the terrorist" is just as dark and savage.
While the world respects might --fully empowered with the latest lethal technology--many of us take up false moral stands justifying killings by the powerful and crying foul when people react.
The solution neither lies in wars no suicide bombings : But we have to start to believe in the equality of human before reaching solutions.

Ms. Andoni's text is written from the cozy confines of a sultanate. There, in Qatar, Al-Jazeera employs her as a consultant for TV shows and internet materials written primarily for captive audiences. If Ms. Andoni were truly an independent member of the press, one might see even an occasional critique of Islam from her or perhaps an accurate statement of the FBI's mishap in its siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.

Instead, being unable to criticize, or even nibble at, the hand that feeds her, every problem in the Middle East is generally attributable to the United States or Israel, or both. The irony is that free citizens of both are largely responsible for her current medium (internet, software, central processing unit, and this open forum).

This lack of self criticsm is exactly why Islamic states are backwards places, including the wealthy ones. All produce endless disgruntlement and some produce oil and crazed physicians, but they produce little else as far as scientific or medical breakthroughs or intellectual thought and advancement. Free speech, debate, and discourse seem to be limited to who can be the most scathing about the non-Islamic scape goat, du jour.

Stripped to the essentials of her article, she argues that it is okay to murder civilians provided that the justification is a right to resist occupiers. Her argument knows no bounds. Shiite and Sunnis in Iraq are now murdering each other as each is the rightful occupier of the center of Iraq. Southern Thai separatists are the true occupiers of southern Thailand just as Pakistanis are the true occupiers of Kashmir, and not India. Just about every jihadist group calls for the end of the occupation of the Andalus, which we know as Spain. Also, she forgets to talk about the United Arab Republic's declared war of annhiliation against Israel in May and June 1967 (to rid occupiers, mind you), or are we supposed to assume that declared war was a joke (albeit with bad consequences for her due to the successful counterattack).

Ms. Andoni, in conclusion and directed to your warm regards for the Gazan Islamic Jihadist, do not be surprised when some jihadist decides to pay you a visit when he or she is aggrieved because you have 'occupied' some mental preserve rightfully allocated to that jihadist. Or perhaps you are not so surprised, and this explains your article and recurrent themes?

Fundamentalism - Fanaticism - Extremism - Radicalism - Jihad - Martyrdom - Terrorism - ...

Why have all these words become integral parts of lives and ideology of the followes of a particular religion only - Muslims?

Islam, which had till 3 decades earlier, remained largely a peaceful faith, is producing people who are killing people in the name of their so-called Jihad. Why only Muslims are turning into terrorists in every corner of the world?

Why these radicalist Muslims blame the West for their perverted ideology - 'Illusionary Identity linked Victimhood' - and, therefore, their justification for Jihad?

Why has Islam got transformed so drastically and disgustingly in such a short span of time? Why its followers are fast losing all sense of sensible interpretations of their religious ideology? Why are they hell bent on irreversibly damaging their own faith? Why is it increasingly producing not followers but fanatics?

Islam needs to introspect. And imbibe in itself the learnings from all other religions of the world about humanity, faith, tolerance, respect for others, peace, life, coexistence, etc. Otherwise, the time is not far that the world will retaliate in the strongest possible manner.

This nonsense will come to an end. Iran will end up becoming a parking lot as long as these idiots keep it up. Then all these little martyr's and their ideas of accomplishing somthing will backfire and get thrown back in their faces. These terrorists are nothing but little cowards that hide in the jungles of South America and sneak around in the deserts of the Middle East. They talk big and tough but patience is running thin over here. Will see what you have to say when the United States take more steps to put an end to this nonsense and that starts with making Iran a parking lot.

Its pathetic and upsetting to see the previous two posters really berate this brave voice who offers reason on what motivates terrorism.

All of the Islam-hating bigots with closed minds akin to anti-Semites (Muslims are Semitic people) seem to confuse Islam with the day to day political fighting and daily news with a problem of religion.

"Robert from Los Angeles" seems to pontificate to the Muslim world about their corrupt leaders. He seems content in "Educating" the ignorant Muslims about how backwards their religion and culture is... He seems to forget that the large corrupt leaders he seems to attack are the very thugs his gov't installed or supports in order to bring "stability" in that part of the world. So they may not be a thorn on its side or Israel's.

People the world over are demanding dignity and if Robert or Chris want to put a blind eye over this basic request and stop exporting their brand of "freedom" to the Muslim world...then don't be surprised to have your freedom thrown right back in your face.

Keep your freedom and stop pretending to care about the region, while truth be told US politicians care only about getting re-elected and that means serving Israel's interests, oil, and now keeping devout Muslims in check. Terrorism is a weapon of the disenfranchised and Iraq had no history of it nor did Afghanistan. But now they are embedded as essential tool to fight the economically, militarily, technologically superior US military.

It's amazing how some of you want to rationalize these suicide bombers. They are worthless nothings!! These cowards must have brains the size of peas and can't think for themselves and do anything that requires any real thinking . If they lived in our country they would be the ones doing the most remedial of jobs that don't involve any thought. They are brainwashed into thinking they are doing an act of glory but in reality just show that they can't think for themselves and have no education or intelligence to do something useful for their lives. The ones that do the suicide bombings is the same type of person that would back down from an argument/confrontation and use some cowardly way to use their anger and exact revenge. They are cowards and deserve everything they get if captured and sent to prison before they commit such an act.

As some commenters have said, Lamis proves herself again to be an apologist for terror. It's more than Toshiro noted about "turning a blind eye", the bleeding heart apology, or money for the family, or looking the other way keeps the elite in most Arab countries from dealing with the real issues of their own government, and allows the middle class and poor to vent their anger and their pity.

Excuse me, whether in Qatar or Mecca (Muslim) or if the National Cathedral in Washington DC was taken by Christian extremists who accosted people in the streets and threatened revolt from their brothers in the heartland, that demands reaction. It's not religious freedom, you don't know what it means (though strangely where is your burka, Lamis, did you lend to the cleric to escape Lal Masjid??), it is an act of political takedown of civil government. Sure Pakistan needs elections so Musharraf does not become another Saddam or a Mubarak or Assad or any else of your benevolent and malevolent brands of leaders.

And come now, how did those million Algerians die? Did DeGaulle hit him all with an atomic bomb? Then why are so many in France. Many died because they sided with the French, many died just because they were educated Western, and many more died in the endless sectarian and ideological battles since, sound familiar?

It's not that you haven't explained your victimhood theory, it's that we're not buying it and neither should Arabs who want real freedom and opportunity in their region

If one accepts, as I do, the basic premise that the intentional targeting of civilians is an immoral act, then as an American, one is left with a quandary, namely that our own country, both in WWII (where virtually every Japanese city was firebombed, culminating in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, along with similar campaigns in Europe-see Dresden, for one) and in Vietnam, where we dropped more bombs on that country than in all of WWII, has been responsible for the slaughter of civilians on a scale far beyond that of all terrorist organizations combined, let alone any single group.

So it's kind of ridiculous to refer to Islam as a "savage" "immoral" religion given that Christians have been responsible for slaughter on a far greater scale than anything seen in or emerging from the Islamic world. Christian Nazi Germany committed a far greater crime, on a far greater scale, against the Jewish people on any given day than pissant Arab terrorists have in 60 years, but I suspect that were people to start citing actions such as these as "proof" that Christianity was a "savage", "immoral" religion, some of our resident bigots might just take exception to this.

As for those Christians and Jews who point only to Muslims who commit terror, I would like to hear about the Zionists who killed the British in Palestine and the Christian British who terrorised the world for three centuries.

This is America, so I dare not say this in public before a crazed Baptist or closet Zionist takes me out, but I would like you pious people to pass sentence on those semi-Europeans who oppress Arabs with Western connivance while making up an imagined Exodus. Maybe some criticism from the hypocrites?

Let's not presume or guess as to what's going on. Let's be real about what we're dealing with:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HaUftcRJ5wo

There's a huge contingent of hate in Islam. They actively, continuously recruit and propagandize. They corrupt the youngest minds who are ripe for the idea of martyrdom. This is almost like an industry for them. And the middle class of Islam turns a blind eye, if not giving implied support.

Now we read newspaper articles that some of these terrorist groups are working with gangs in South America to try and sneak into the United States. What a match made in heaven. Two elementary groups of lowlife no meaning in life losers that have nothing to but try and attack innocent Americans. These bombers try to glorify themselves as brave and glorious and don't realize how stupid they really look.

As far as I'm concerned any of these Middle Easterners caught sneaking into through our border should be sent to Guantanamo Bay.. no if's and's or buts.

The bottom line in all of this is that bombers and terrorists are not sending the United States any message with their barbaric and elementary actions. The only thing that will come upon this is more hurt and destruction to the people they think they are defending. The great United States of America will prevail as always over these chicken and scared little cowards that hide in the jungles of South America and their little underground caves in the Middle East.

It's spelled:

M U R D E R E R

A person who straps a bomb on themselves and blows other people up is a M U R D E R E R.

They lose all credibility, just as you have for supporting them.

All you guys can do is kill and destroy.

You hate your life so much, and you are such cowards, that you turn your kids into bombs.

With parents like you, no wonder they're so screwed up!!!!

As one poster said:

"As usual messages left by some on these blogs don't add much substance to the debate but leave a general distaste of reading what hopeless partisans write afterwards."

Nothing can justify these cowards that strap bombs to themselves. They only show their complete cowardice by their actions. They cannot fight in real combat so they think they are sending the rest of the world a message by strapping a bomb to themselves. What a bunch of crazed loonies with absolutely no purpose in their lives. Completely worthless human beings! There is nothing that can justify terrorism. A bunch of fanatics that use religion as an excuse to get attention! These are the biggest cowards in the entire world and they deserve the most tortuous and extreme types of punishment when they are caught before they can commit their cowardice acts of strapping bombs to themselves.

Nothing can justify these cowards that strap bombs to themselves. They only show their complete cowardice by their actions. They cannot fight in real combat so they think they are sending the rest of the world a message by strapping a bomb to themselves. What a bunch of crazed loonies with absolutely no purpose in their lives. Completely worthless human beings! There is nothing that can justify terrorism. A bunch of fanatics that use religion as an excuse to get attention! These are the biggest cowards in the entire world and they deserve the most tortuous and extreme types of punishment when they are caught before they can commit their cowardice acts of strapping bombs to themselves.

As with most analyses of suicide bombings, this one fails to mention the tremendous irony implicit in such an action. Despite the tremendous courage it obviously takes someone to blow themselves and innocent people up, what voice will the suicide bomber have in the future achievement of their cause? None -- since they are dead, they will have no role in the future. This would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. Veterans organizations frequently have a heavy impact on what happens after their fighting and sacrifices. Suicide bombers don't have an organization and their opinions, whatever they were, are of no interest to anyone.

She's an apologist for suicide bombings...

Her logic reminds me why Islam has forever been a third-world religion.

Wouldn't she be wearing a burqua?

From Lebanaon, thanks for responding. I'm not asking a rhetorical question. I really want to know what people think.

"Peace under Islamic rule (historically documented) was the norm in the MiddleEast not the exception. "

What about the Abassid overthrow of the Umayyads, and the later violent break with the Shi'a who had supported their rise. Didn't the Ottomans conquer their empire? What about the Arab uprising against them? You can probably come up with much better examples than I can. But what I'm really asking is, if Israel were to disappear, would Syria stop killing its opponents in Lebanon, and would Lebanese stop fighting each other? Would the Shi'a and Sunni in Iraq stop fighting each other? Would Kurds and Turks stop fighting? Darfur? Palestinians would take over Palestine again, but would they live peacefully in their own country? It's not looking good so far. Would Arab Jews be welcomed back to their former homes? I don't think we can blame Israel for everything. From the outside, it kind of looks like people are trying to gain or maintain power by keeping people focused on hatred for the scapegoat. After all, that's one of the oldest political strategies ever used.

While the U.S. government and media keep focusing on defense policies and the war in Iraq, 1.2 billion people in the world continue surviving on less than $1 dollar a day. I would like see congressmen and political leaders support more international dilemmas that affect our place in this world, such as global poverty. We should not forget the commitment made towards the U.N. Millennium Goals (a pact of ending extreme world hunger by the year 2025) in 2000. While the U.S. government and media keep focusing on defense policies and the war in Iraq, 1.2 billion people in the world continue surviving on less than $1 dollar a day. According to The Borgen Project, an annual $19 billion dollars is needed to eliminate half of the extreme poverty affecting the world by the year 2015. To my sense, it is almost unacceptable to have spent so far more than $340 billion in Iraq only, when we have more than war immunities to change the world and eliminate poverty.

Andoni is an apologist for Islamic terrorism, plain and simple. there are quite a few muslims who always play the victim card. they just can't seem to get out of it.

here's a simple question - what do we do about the millions of hindus, christians, non muslims who have been killed by marauding islamic armies in the last 2000 years ? Can millions of muslims be killed so that it EVENS OUT ?

Andoni is an absolute shame for a journalist.

Just imagine if this how a "journalist" in the Middle east is, how bad are those "vicitimized" islamic terrorists ? I shudder to think about the challenges the civilized world faces against radical islam.

May be a George W Bush is what these guys need.

GreenViews:
I do come across these desperate paki/paki-supporting morons in the message boards but you top the list, boy !!

Blame India for everything !! Isnt that what pakistans motto is and always will be ? your country was born out of sheer hatred for India and continues to self destruct itself because you pakis have no national identity to hang on to. it is nt surprising to see baluchis rise up against the punjabi elitists who always boss them around. and yeah blame India for that.

Who says that India is prophesizing pakistan is doomed ? The WORLD is. Every body now knows that pakistan is nothing but a terrorist state full of islamic fanatics like you.

Your love for Taliban is really touching indeed. May be you should tell it to the millions of Afghans who suffered mercilessly under them. We will then see who hangs from a tree.

You pakis have lost 4 wars to India and will be destroyed if India retaliated with a nuclear missile strike - you are smaller territory to destroy any ways. Nuclear attacks are a two way street you idiot !

Star and Cresecent on the Red Fort ? Yeah, may be if you could invent a time maachine and go back to the 16 century . your dear pakistan will self destruct before any one else wants to do any thing to handle the global menace that pakistan has now become.

If jinnah ever came back to life, he would kill himself.

Thank you Ms. Lamis for your insight. I'm encouraged to see an outspoken Arab woman and her firm eloquence.

As usual messages left by some on these blogs don't add much substance to the debate but leave a general distaste of reading what hopeless partisans write afterwards.

>>I heard Israel is respondsible for the common cold and dandruff too . Can you verify this for the group?

LoL. Very funny. Haha we're all chuckling. NOT! By making ridiculous claim as these and by portraying the aggressors as the victims (as the Jews who support Israel and Christian fundies always do) you prove the point, that Israel's supporters and their ilk is why the US remains so loyally blind and confused in its policies in the Middle East.

Threaten lawmakers with a campaign of cash, votes, and their job...the Israeli lobbies and their right wing-radio yesmens will quickly change almost any politicians' mind quickly.

That is why consistently AIPAC is ranked as one of the 10 most influential lobbies in DC, and the only one putting a foreign state's loyalty so high.

Let truth and freedom ring from every American household.

"So suicide bombing derives from oppression, humiliation and injustice. I suppose, then, that the Japanese were the victims in WWII because, after all, they used kamikaze pilots in suicide attacks against the Allies. And Japanese civilians killed themselves en masse, rather than surrender, on Okinawa and Iwo Jima."

Will irrelevant examples ever cease to reign?
Do you think the Japanese fighter jets would resort to kamikazes if they could destroy the far superior, nuclear capable Allies militarily? The kamikazes were usually done during the end not the beginning of the war when doing as much damage to the Allies was the goal.

Let me help strengthen your argument, your example proves why suicide bombings and suicide is done, when hope is lost (rather than surrender as you say) killing yourself with your dignity if better than seeing your land occupied by a foreign entity.

It is a tactic of the weaker party, otherwise why would one kill him/herself if they also had F-16s and other bombs to counter the "force of good?" as Bush like to call his mission to spread freedom.

Hi Sam and Asim etal: I heard Israel is respondsible for the common cold and dandruff too . Can you verify this for the group ?

The Middle East seems to be a place of constant and never ending extremes. There seems to be extreme actions on virtually everyone's part in defence of extreme ideologies (again, on everyone's part). If America has ever had genius in its worldview, I would say it is this: we always try to find a middle path, eventually anyway.

It is my considered opinion after living 54 years in a world where the Middle East has been in constant turmoil throughout my lifetime that if we had a lot less religion and a lot more Godliness coming out of the Middle East, we would all rest easier at night.

Abraham, the father of Judaism, Christianity and Islam must be vomiting every time he sees any of us call ourselves "Children of Abraham" and then proceed to kill each other as representatives of one of his three branches of the Religion of the One God. If he can see what we are doing, he must be hiding his face in shame. If I were him, I would disavow all of us.

"Could someone detail exactly how the elimination of Israel would bring peace to the Middle East? It's not like the region was at peace between the Jewish Roman Wars of the first century AD and 1948."

The Jews before the creation of Zionist Israel lived in Islamic Palestine and indeed the Middle East in coexistence with their Christian and Muslim counterparts with the rights to worship.
Indeed it was Muslims in the 7th century under one of the 4 rigteously guided caliph, Caliph Omar who brought the expelled Jews back to the area to worship in the Western Wall in Jerusalem. Peace under Islamic rule (historically documented) was the norm in the MiddleEast not the exception. If you're kicked out of your house, I'm sure you'll fight aswell.

Suhail :

An Islamic voice of reason and compassion. Thank you! I am sure there are many, many more of you out there. We in the West need to hear you.

to: You're spelling it wrong!?
I totally agree in what you are saying: IT IS MURDUR and IT SPELLS MURDUR! NOTHING ELSE! And they even call it religion! Islam!
But I wont take you seriously for one second if you don’t see
and spell what: dropping a 1 ton bomb on a apartment building full of people from a F16 or shelling a beach full of playing children is? What do you call those acts? Those are too MURDER which SPELLS MURDUR! They call that too defending a religion! Judaism!
We Christians have also burned, raped and murdered in 2000 years in the name of Christianity! THAT TOO SPELLS MURDER!

If you agree in all that, then you have credibility! If not? you are a propagandist and a warmonger!

RELIGION AT ALL, IS AND SPELLS MURDUR!

Lamis,

You make these terrorists out to be some noble force. I have no problems with anyone else's beliefs except when it justifies killing others and prohibits others from believing what they want. These are murderers in every sense. I cant believe you can even defend there actions , ideology or any facet of there oppressive existence.

Could someone detail exactly how the elimination of Israel would bring peace to the Middle East? It's not like the region was at peace between the Jewish Roman Wars of the first century AD and 1948.

Asim,
"There is nothing fanatical about resisting a brutal 60-year inhumane military racist Apartheid jewish occupation of Palestine." Sure there is. I could describe it in language you would understand like this: It is fanatical to be racist, anti-semetic, unwilling to make a deal for the greater good of Palestinians and instead believe that blowing up yourself and every innocent person around you somehow was justified, condoned and in fact encouraged by the misguided interpretation of Islam.

So suicide bombing derives from oppression, humiliation and injustice. I suppose, then, that the Japanese were the victims in WWII because, after all, they used kamikaze pilots in suicide attacks against the Allies. And Japanese civilians killed themselves en masse, rather than surrender, on Okinawa and Iwo Jima.

Just because one side to a conflict resorts to suicide attacks doesn't make that side the victim. If anything, it's merely further evidence that the suicide attackers must be stopped using any means necessary.

This is a simple case of a criminal squatter constructing a building illegally and then making tall claims to hide the tactic of taking over government land that does not belong to them.

However it is very pertinent that the building is right next to the Indian Embassy and that known "Baluch" terrorists are now holed up in the basement of the building. Indian support to Baluch terrorists including the Marris is well known and long standing.

Pakistan has now become immune to Indian “prophecies of doom”.

Analysts see major cavities in India. Today there is an overwhelming body of evidence that a similar fate faces "India." India's major problem is not a nuclear armed Pakistan, or 160 million belligerent Pakistanis or even 160 million Bangledeshis or the 160 million Indian Muslims. India's problem is the 40 million Hindu White widows, and the Dalits and Naxalite insurrection that threatens to destroy the heart of midland. While the urban penury competes with rural poverty the plutocratic, dynastic democrats, the extremist rightists, and the megalomaniacs (Nero's) dream of a global power, the heart of India is in pain and destitution.

Once again, India is on the losing side in the war in Afghanistan. The real Afghans sick of the extremist "talibaan" and the other stooges will take power in Kabul. Soon Mr. Karzai, the Mayor of Kabul will be seeking Indian asylum again, choosing a condominium next to the Delai Lama. Afghanistan will soon be liberated again , the other traitors and non-Pashtun puppets will hang from the trees in Kabul. As the Afghans win, the Indian Consulates (the den of deceit and inequity) will once again be shut down and the Indian Embassy will again be sent packing back to old Delhi.

If the plutocrats in India do not learn their lessons, there will be another Mahmud of Ghazni and another Ahmad Shah Abdali to teach her that lesson. Missile pun intended. This time New Delhi will lose more than the peacock throne and the Kohinoor.

Forget about Lal Masjid, soon the Crescent and Star will flutter on top of Lal Qila

It seems that this is a general rule:

When your people die for a cause, it becomes hard for your side to condemn the action, even if it is an immoral mistake.

That's the evil of starting an immoral violent cause. This scale of evil is the stuff of the Devil, because willfully ordering & creating needless violence & hatred causes thousands of people to hate, kill, and put them into situations where they are desperate enough to commit acts of evil. This is what Satan would applaud as the pinnacle of murder and mayhem, with the tempting of thousands of souls into evil.

While the method of using a person as a weapon on a suicide mission is a logical but extreme extension of military tactics (even though it is desperate exploitation of the warfighters), the immoral part is to deliberately target civillians.

It is evil to deliberately target civillians. However, yes, there is hypocrisy on the part of the "West". Killing civillians and wiping out cities with bombs is euphemistically called "strategic targetting," rather than being recognized as war crimes. Look at how strategic nuclear missiles are targetted. They are aimed at cities in order to cause maximum death of civillians. Targeting civillians and indiscrimate bombing have been used very often by the United States.

But still again, just because other parties have targted civillians, it does not excuse Islamists. In fact, religious Islamist are doubly hypocritical and evil, because their supposed morality tells them it is wrong to kill civillians, so they are lying to themselves and breaking their own supposed morality, which they wear on their sleeves.

In addition, Islamist radicals engage in violence as their first resort, when it would not be the best way to solve whatever problems are in their societies. This itself is beastial, because an enlightened human being would focus on solving the problem in the most effective and non-violent way, rather than expressing & indulging angry emotions in violence, like a dog.

In fact I do agree with a previous poster in that these radicals seem like more frustrated males who are obsessed with control, territoriality, controlling women, pride, and acting out violently.

To correct my last post, I meant Americans of European ancestry. And to be clear, I am of the belief that what the US did to indigenous groups is much worse than anything that the PLO or Islamist groups have been able to accomplish so far. I just don't believe that past atrocities justifies the committing of more.

So if your cause is good, it's OK to target civilians? Let's say the Lakota Sioux decide that it's time to get back all of their tribal lands by any means necessary. They then start bombing movie theaters and sports stadiums everywhere from New York to Los Angeles. Is this justified because Europeans should never have taken their land in the first place (much of which they won themselves through conquest)? At some point a civilized human being has to say that it is better to not reach your political goals than to lose your humanity. How does the saying go, "What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his own soul?" As a practical matter for the resistance, as Gandhi would say, if they were to win by such means, what kind of people would be the leaders of their new nation and how would they lead it? We've already seen it with Arafat's Fatah and PLO. They gained autonomy through terrorism, but these leaders were wholly unable to run their territories competently without rampant corruption. Most major world powers have at some time or other participated in unimaginable horrors. This doesn't excuse anyone. Andrew Jackson killed a man in a duel. This does not justify my going out and killing a man today to defend my honor.

It's spelled:

M U R D E R E R

A person who straps a bomb on themselves and blows other people up is a MURDERER.

The lose all credibility, just as you have for supporting them.

Fully agree with Sam above. Reread his post which is enlightening.

You can NOT win a war against a tactic, i.e terrorism. Terrorism is nothing new, was, and always has been. The goal of terrorism is to cause terror and fear. If you fear then terrorists win and have achieved their goal.

Consider this: Terrorism in the past 50 years have combined to kill little less than 8,000 people. Wars of aggression and genocide on the other hand (the ultimate terrorism) over 10 million.

Here's an ironic quote: "You can not prevent terrorism as you cannot prevent crime in American cities." (George W. Bush)

For once, Messier Bush spoke the truth.

It is a common practice of spinners to remove the context of the action in question from the discussion. They then wittingly or unwittingly state that the action is mad, illogical in the context of the readers and as the result of an evil power that should be destroyed.

That's propaganda.

It's spelled:

M U R D E R E R

A person who straps a bomb on themselves and blows other people up is a MURDERER.

The lose all credibility, just as you have for supporting them.

Its spelled:

M U R D E R E R

A person who straps a bomb on themselves and blows other people up is a MURDERER.

The lose all credibility, just as you have for supporting them.

Its spelled:

M U R D E R E R

A person who straps a bomb on themselves and blows other people up is a MURDERER.

The lose all credibility, just as you have for supporting them.

Suhail said "What is now needed is the Islamic Renaissance that never took place in Islamic world when the Europeans rose against the authoritative church-state framework few centuries ago."

Sadly Suhail you're duped by the propaganda of the likes of Bernard Lewis and Norman Podhoretz. What's needed is not an Islamic Renaissance but going back to the original teachings of traditional Islam and abandon this nationalistic pan-Arabist myth idea.

What I saw in Lebanon last year and see today convinces me without doubt that all ideologies about helping poor rings/disenfranchised hollow when basic security, dignity, and justice are usurped by dictators, royalties, and "your highnesses." What could be a greater violation of Islam than having dictators rule rather than a just caliph rule, and no Mr. Bush its not just the violent terrorists who desire a Caliphate! (dictators who then exploit their rule by installing yes-men clergies who don't question their legitimacy?)

Only social justice on par with classical Christianity and Islam, can take people of the Middle East back.

War on terror is like war on ghosts that we can neither see nor feel around. How can anybody win a war against such an enemy who appears only when he decides to strike,who can be near you all the time without knowing it,who can be with you in the street,on the train,on the bus,on the flight,even near your house,school or garden.Let's be honest about it. This is not a conventional war that we used to know.Even with the most powerful neuclear weapons,we simply cannot win such a war.However,this doesn't mean that we have to give up or surrender to the enemy.We can simply eradicate all terrorists and terrorism by eliminating the major cause behind it.The illegal creation of Israel on the ruins of Palestine is the stem cell that has been breeding all chaos and trerror in the Middle East and in the whole world.Palestinians,being moslems or christians,were kicked out of their country to be replaced by jews from Europe,Ethiopia,Russia,Poland etc.
Unless the Palestinian issue is settled in a fair way to all concerned parties and unless all Palestinian refugees return home under UN resolutions, we will continue to fight ghosts for many years to come.

Ms. Andoni: "The mosque siege reminds of the crisis at Waco, Texas where American forces did not really care about the lives of 'the fanatics under siege.'"

The Waco compound caught fire when the government tried to force the residents out with tear gas. There was a long stand-off before that when the government did not blow up the compound because of the danger of killing innocent people. Maybe you don't remember this, or maybe it wasn't covered well by your local media, but reports of abuse of children figured largely into Janet Reno's decision to move in. Sure, the initial ATF raid was poorly planned and poorly secured. They should have just arrested Koresh in town instead of trying to take him in his compound like a bunch of yahoos. The final fire, probably set by tear gas canisters punched into the building if I remember correctly, was tragic. But there was no intention to kill them all.

>>If Palestinian and Islamist groups restricted their targeting to military targets, even if some civilians were killed accidentally, people would see them as freedom-fighters or revolutionaries instead of as criminals.

LoL. If US, UK, and the Israeli neocons stop going to Arab lands then those "freedom fighters" would not have an excuse to fight for their freedom.

Your quick to condemn the bombings and are quick to Palestinians and Iraqis as criminals...who are mired in a civil war thanks to the Bush/neocon axis of "divide and rule" but somehow overlook the millions of bombed and maimed civilians and militant fighters during the American Civil War.

Despite being a Muslim, I fully support extremely strong action and elimination of the religious zealots.. If death is what they want .. so it be.

If Islamic society is to survive another century they need to deal with the fanatics in a firm manner. The greatest threat to Islam is not from Christians and Jews but from the Mullahs who are hell bent on collective suicide. Any 'thinking' muslim needs work against the fanatics.

What is now needed is the Islamic Renaissance that never took place in Islamic world when the Europeans rose against the authoritative church-state framework few centuries ago.

>>"There is a world of a difference between those who fight for their beliefs and those who deliberately choose to target and kill innocent civilians in the name of their beliefs" ~ Aztec

Tell that to those "noble Western leaders" like Bush, Blair, Howard, Aznar who deliberately chose to invade a Muslim country on the basis of 1) Lies 2) Oil and 3) Israel...

Tell that to the innocent Lebanese dead by Israel's invasion of Lebanon last summer because 2 IDF soldier's were kidnapped...and the children victims at Qana...and the scores of UN Peacekeepers as documented factually by non-partisan groups.

Indeed the IDEA OF SUICIDE BOMBING is NOT new to "Islamists," as the most suicide bombings in the past 20 years combined were carried out by a Hindu group in Sri Lanka...

Suicide bombing is a tactic of desperation by those who feel they can do MOST damage. They can't fight F-16s with F-16s of their own...

I commend this author for her thorough analysis and wish to see more articles written by people of the region.

And I vehemently condemn the charlatan pro-Israeli neocons anti-Semites and anti-Muslim bigots who want to see more warfare against "Islamists" and people of the Muslim Middle East.

Its time to ask though questions and I urge you all to look into the only candidate who speaks the truth about this and many other issues: DR. RON PAUL.

www.ronpaul08.com

"it is intersting how we recognize George Washignton as a freedome figther and those who fight in palistine as criminals ...the founding fathers were considired as traitorby the british and perhaps still do.."

The difference, of course, is that George Washington did not send people to London to blow themselves up in civilian crowds. If Palestinian and Islamist groups restricted their targeting to military targets, even if some civilians were killed accidentally, people would see them as freedom-fighters or revolutionaries instead of as criminals.

it is intersting how we recognize George Washignton as a freedome figther and those who fight in palistine as criminals ...the founding fathers were considired as traitorby the british and perhaps still do..((( how can we commemerate GIVE me liberty or gove give me death ))) and deny it to others .. i think i know the reason . be cause we have not been occupied .. only our fathers were.

Another Muslim, violence apologist. Always the victim game.

Let Israel drive all those who oppose the state into the vast Arab World to rot.

Deist

Perhaps one needs to hear the speeches of Brigitte Gabriel on the politics of Palestine.

Here's a great site to check out:

The Truth About Islam
http://islamwatchers.blogspot.com

Jkoch: your ignorance is profound.

There is nothing fanatical about resisting a brutal 60-year inhumane military racist Apartheid jewish occupation of Palestine.

The Red Mosque terrorists were a bunch of frustrated males who wanted to attack the modern world in hopes of erecting a patrimonial dictatorship in which they would rule over everything (females in particular) and enjoy a power they were incompetent to achieve in a modern world driven by the market or in competition with their sisters. There is nothing to admire in anything about their supposed movement. Even the KKK endorsed "law and order," which is not enough to make one grant a scintilla of respect for that group. Ditto for the killers who held the Red Mosque and took hostages to their death. The only pragmatic problem in all this is, of course, the fact that most of Pakistan's clergy seems reluctant to denounce the fanatics and terrorists.

Lamis Ansoni is to be complemented for her astute analysis. self-imolation is no more inherent to Islam than stealing land is to Jews.

Endless savage occupation deprives the occupied population of hope in a normal future or ultimately in the worth of life itself - his and his tormentors. Endless savage occupation deprives the occupier of his moral bearings so that he sees the occupied as sub-human - not entitled to his peace or property.

There is a world of a difference between those who fight for their beliefs and those who deliberately choose to target and kill innocent civilians in the name of their beliefs

Islam fashions a culture of death and their apologists like Lamis Adoni try to create an acceptable rationale for the rest of the civilized world. Suicide and the murder of innocent women and children which accounts for the vast majority of what passes as "resistance" among these animals is neither brave nor noble. What nonsense!

If any action Mussarraf has taken that I agree with this is it , this not Islam that I grew up , ufortunately, one needs to ask the Pakistn Army and the generals who formated this Mullah /Army alliance for the last twenty years, why did they take so long to take this action.
This Mullahs/Army axis has destroyed Pakistan and now it is back to bite the hand that feeds it.

The Islamic world is forcing a 'final solution' upon the west by its refusal to even contemplate peaceful coexistence.

In such a battle of extermination, the winner is a foregone conclusion.

A religion that embraces death to the exclusion of life is an abominantion of the human spirit.