Lamis Andoni is a Middle East consultant for Al Jazeera, the Qatar-based news station. She has been covering the Middle East for 20 years. She has reported for the Christian Science Monitor, the Financial Times and the main newspapers in Jordan. She was a professor at the Graduate School in UC Berkeley.
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Lamis Andoni
Doha, Qatar
Lamis Andoni is a Middle East consultant for Al Jazeera, the Qatar-based news station.
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No doubt, Either the terrorists surrender or they will get their virgins! Maybe, that's the only language they understand! They have started the war, therefore, they must surrender or they have to face the consequences!
I wholeheartedly agree with Karim, particularly about the nature of the "sectarian" violence in Iraq.
The Bushies make a huge blunder (typical) when they start making analogies with Hitler and WWII. If they knew their history better they wouldn't go there. Some Bushies don't even know that Hitler declared war on the US, positing the absurd notion that the US did so for altruistic reasons. They have no explanation for why the US waited more then two years to enter the fray. If the US hadn't been attacked by Japan, and had Germany not declared war in the same month (Dec 1941) they probably never would have, despite President Roosevelt's early recognition of the dangers of Nazi Germany.
You wouldn't believe it possible but Bushies claim that liberals in America were responsible for it's late entry into the war. Because they "Can't recognise evil"! In fact, it was American RW fascists (like Bush's grandfather Prescott) who didn't recognise evil in 1933, and still can't now, even though it is right under their nose.
Many previous bloggers have posited that the US is not responsible for the carnage in Iraq. These are mostly Bushies who have no concept of the Geneva Conventions. The conventions state unequivocally the an invading and occupying force becomes responsible, as a quasi-government, for everything that happens in the occupied territory. Period.
Besides the legal proscriptions, there is this: the deaths in an occupied country needn't be "at the hands" of the occupying force. The Germans knew this when they occupied Poland. Their first order of business (for the Einstatzgruppe) was to assasinate a small group of Polish Nationalists. Internecine violence between nationalists and ethnic Germans followed as sure as night follows day. Caught in the crossfire were "Jewish Bolsheviks" hated by almost everyone else. Of course the US Special Forces knows nothing of such tactics.
History correctly apportions blame for Nazi's genocide of Jews, Poles, Czechs, Gypsies, Hungarians, Romanians et al, whether they died at the hands of Nazi Germans or not.
And I assure you, dear reader, that America will be universally damned for what Bush has done in Iraq.
Im glad you think war should no longer be an option on the table (Fareed Zakaria should take note of this).
On the on-going Iraqi bloodbath, you should understand that "sunni vs shia" is not an accurate description of what it is going on. The Kurds are also Sunni but notice that they are not fighting the Shia.
Aside from the invasion that created divisions among Iraqis (collaborator vs nationalist), the US government made it worse by promoting sectarian politics in a country where such system can only work with consensus not with the number of votes.
In the entire history of Iraq, no such in-fighting was ever recorded. War-mongering US officials and the cheer-leading mainstream US media love to tell people that they have nothing to do with the in-fighting but uses every opportunity to tell neighboring states to "stop interfering and creating havoc" in Iraq. Even Al-Jazeera was banned in Iraq (for 2 years now) because everything can influence what goes in Iraq except of course the US government: The God of this planet that is building the biggest US embassy in the world in Iraq.
The US government was warned about the dangers of invading Iraq, even by our coward Arab governments that are allied with the US government. Turkey refused to take part of this madness too.
It is not just the US government that is at fault here, you have the Fareed Zakarias, the Thomas Freedmans, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and of course all the think-tanks that lend their "expertise" (in war-mongering) to congressional hearings and meetings.
War decisions are largely made by select few (the above) and voters are fed propaganda to put a rubber stamp on it so they can do the actual fighting while Zakaria and Freedman are sitting in their offices lecturing people how great US power is.
This war must be stopped.
In you think you forgot, this is what war is. It is as brutal and as savage as it was before if not more (the new weapons are much more brutal actually):
This last one is the first post of yours that makes any sense at all.
I have repeatedly stated that I do not agree with the Iraq invasion or the reasons given for going in there in the first place.
As for the first Iraq war, I think if you are suggesting the the US was wrong in liberating Kuwait after the Iraqi attack, you may find five other people in the world who agree with you.
As for the "Highway of Death" I recall the fleeing Iraqi troops were like sitting ducks and -- too late -- but eventually someone called a halt to the shooting.
For me, it is beyond despicable that in the last decades of the 20th Century and the opening decade of the 21st, especially after learnig the lessons of Vietnam, war should be even an option on the table.
I would still like you to answer the question I posed earlier -- how is the US responsible for Iraqi killing Iraqi, Shi'a killing Sunni?
Please understand that I am not against America as a nation or as a country. My criticism is directed at the US government's policies that foreigners suffer from. I truly believe if the US government was bombing US cities the way it bombed Vietnam or Iraq, you wouldn't be accusing me of "blind hatred".
I am just tired of all these wars (that are sometimes cheered in America) and you should join us in condemning your own government for its blatant violations.
Every other independent Human Rights organization condemned harshly the brutality of the US government in these wars.
Your problem is that you have blind faith in your own government. No matter how many millions of people the US kills, you still attempt to argue that it was done in "good faith" or for a good reason. My answer to you is Jim Crow laws.
The US government is capable of evil just like any other government out there. Stop apologizing for it.
15 years ago I used to admire the US government. But since I saw what it did to Iraq and how brutal it was (highway of death, etc), I no longer have any respect for it. It bothered me a lot that a supposedly civilized government still cheers wars and the killing of human beings. In the end, I realized that it was like any other government out there. Considering its unmatched military power, and its record, we people of the world feels threatened by it today. THe US government can today bomb any country it wishes, literally anything anywhere anytime. You're not on the receiving end.
I'm a Kraut and I stand with the United States of America - the greatest Nation ever! If someone is against America, then he is against me too!
Here in Germany, and also in Europe, the NAZIS and Commmunists are still alive, therefore, it's no wonder, that anti-Americanism is wide spreaded across Europe. The reason is, is that the news-media are censored, so the people do not know, what's really going on. All news they get are one-sided.
However, Americans should give a big nothing about what the European hardheads are talking, because it's part of the NAZI-Propaganda here in Europe, especially here in Germany. In addition, Europe is a safe haven for terrorists.
America is doing great and there's nothing wrong with it! Iran is a dictatorship and the people over there cannot wait to get liberated. So what?
Thanks to the finest and brightest men and women of the United States - Our Troops!
In a funny way, I find your post even more offensive than Karim's.
Karim's comments come from ignorance, myopia and hatred.
Yours come from bigotry and intolerance.
It is a pretty close call between the two of you, but, on balance, I think you are worse -- mostly because I think you are an American and should know better.
One can almost forgive Karim for his blindness, hatred and succumbing to propagandist hatred of America and anything American -- even as he reads that we do not condone violence and killing even when done by our government.
As for you ... well, you have been brought up with a Constitution that stands for equality, justice and tolerance. Yet, you write stuff which appears to come from an unthinking and unintelligent mind.
I find the islamic ideaology to be one of violence, distrust, and condemnation of humans rights. Islam needs to be destroyed in order for their to be peace in the world.
"It's one of the great strengths of the country's political system, in fact."
The above typically doesn't apply to foreign issues. One is supposed to rally behind the president.
On the issue of Iraqi victims of US-led UN sanctions, the figure was not disputed by Albright when she was posed the question.
The UN which was imposing the sanction is the one that came up with the estimation.
Saddam was of course going to try to exploit this issue for his own benefits but that doesn't mean tens of thousands of children weren't dying unnecessary because US policy believed "the price was worth it".
US officials have stated that among the goals of the sanctions was to "push" the Iraqi population to revolt against the Iraqi government....by starving them.
This is not what civilized nations do. Killing innocent people directly or indirectly can never be justified.
It is fascinating to see you get more hysterical as the facts elude you.
Let's take the Jim Crow (btw, it's Jim Crow, not Jim Craw)laws. I think most Americans -- and I mean by that 99%+ -- would agree that they represent among the most shameful in our history. At the end of this message is a brief paragraph I picked out of the introduction on Wikipedia for your edification. You can do an Internet search on "Jim Crow" and get a plethora of information including historical references.
Now, let me ask if you are willing to say that suicide bombings, the 9-11 attack, the attack on the WTC a couple years before 9-11, the shelling of Israeli towns by HisbAllah and Hamas, are equally shameful periods for the Arabs.
What about the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in 1991? When the Kuwaitis and Saudis and Gulf states appealed to the US to do something, was that Arabs asking for intervention or was the US Government hearing mystical voices from outer space?
When the Saudis and Sunni Arab governments say that if the US does not get a handle on Iraqi violence, they may intervene to stop the rise of the Shi'a crescent, is this appeal for more action by the US, a call from Arabs, or is it more voices from Pluto?
Look, you keep saying we get mad when you criticize the US Government. Not so. We criticize our own government.
Okay, Jim Crow laws. Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. Women in Afghanistan were beaten for exposing flesh on ankles. Men were beaten for not wearing beards. In Iran, women are forced to wear coverings. Education is not allowed for them.
Is this what you are praising as a model?
In Saudi Arabia, no religion is allowed other than Islam. Is this your idea of tolerance?
I think you do have it all wrong. It is clear that governments act out of economic and political self interest. Much of US and western policy vis-a-vis the Middle East was geared to maintaining stability, even at the expense of supporting totalitarian and dictatorial regimes. President Bush said this was a mistake and the US should be more actively trying to promote democracy.
One can argue with either philosophy - indeed, one can legitimately say the US should do neither.
However, neither is an evil motive.
The US has not sought territory or to expropriate without payment another country's resources. The US got out of Kuwait after driving the Iraqi forces out.
By the way, the Kuwaitis did not start killing each other or shooting and bombing US forces after the US drove the Iraqis away. Why not?
The US did not even try to use Iraqi oil revenue to pay for rebuilding the infrastructure. If the Iraqis had not gone on this killing spree and driven out 700,000 to 1.8 million of their fellow citizens, and set off roadside bombs, the country would likely have had a massive Marshall Plan like buildout with power plants, roads, schools, hospitals.
But no ... you and your people cannot stand the idea that one person is a Sunni and another a Shi'a without wanting to kill, kill, kill.
BTW -- I think it was implicit in what I wrote originally, but I do acknowledge that in the aerial bombing before the 2003 march of troops into Iraq, many Iraqis were killed by US bombs. I have already said that is something I did not and do not support.
So, let us look into the future -- Iraq has lost 700,000 to 1.8 million, mostly Sunni people with means to get out. These are professionals and skilled people. Most of the Sunnis and Shi'a who intermarried -- according to press reports -- have been killed or displaced. This leaves a Shi'a society to rule most of Iraq -- other than the Kurdish areas.
What will you do with the remaining Sunnis? Share with them, all things, oil revenue, government? Or subject them to death squads as you have been?
What if the US had not stopped Saddam Hussein in Kuwait? Would Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, etc. be around?
___________
You have some legitimate complaints about US policy. Most Americans accept that and want to see us do better.
But your blind hatred based on ignorance and disinformation, is not acceptable.
Have a good life!
__
The Jim Crow Laws were state and local laws enacted in the Southern and border states of the United States and enforced between 1876 and 1965. They mandated "separate but equal" status for African Americans. In reality, this led to treatment and accommodations that were almost always inferior to those provided to white Americans. The Jim Crow period or the Jim Crow era refers to the time during which this practice occurred. The most important laws required that public schools, public places and public transportation, like trains and buses, have separate facilities for whites and blacks. (These Jim Crow Laws were separate from the 1800-66 Black Codes, which had restricted the civil rights and civil liberties of African Americans.) State-sponsored school segregation was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1954 in Brown v. Board of Education. Generally, the remaining Jim Crow laws were overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act; none were in effect at the end of the 1960's.
"Would the United States military gladly welcome the day that they can fight wars without killing innocent(foreign) civilians? I bet you my life and the lives of my family they would."
If the military that you praise cared about the loss of innocent life, its shameless generals wouldn't have openly stated that "they don't do body counts"....of foreigners of course, US casualties are counted in well kept records, am I wrong?
Unfortunately, you are describing an ideal defense force, not an imperialist force that travels 5000 miles away to bomb civilian cities, destroy basic infrastructure (that killed sick and elderly people..but who cares, your military doesn't do body counts), and of course tortures people in prisons etc, not to mention daily psychological torture on children and women, etc.
The US military killed with impunity so many innocent people in check-points alone. US soldiers just sprayed people with bullets..because they are not so sure if an incoming car is hostile or not..well better kill them all to be sure, if they happen to be innocent, well tough luck..this is a war...pick up the corps and give them to their families if they have any left, and move on.
Please enough with the propaganda. The US army is guilty of war crimes.
I am not sure when Arabs asked for help from the US government in the last 30 years or so. Would you mind listing few examples?
Everyone in the Middle East knows what the US government did to Iran before the Shah was installed by the CIA, before most Arabs or Persians (for the matter) knew what America was. In case you attempt to deny, here is the full disclosure of the CIA operation:
The involvement in this coup by the CIA was denied for least 40 years until it was declassified in the 90s. During those years, we heard from people like you the same excuses that you are posting today: That the US government does not do these things deliberately, that the US government's policy can never be evil or disingenious.
On Jim Craw laws, I only brought it to show readers what the US government is capable of doing and because one poster continue to claim that the US government's wrongdoings are never intended.
All my criticism, harsh (and well deserved) sometimes because of all these deaths, is directed at the US government exclusively. For some reason, you get offended when people criticize your government. You can criticize Arab governments all you want and I will not defend them as long as you don't turn it into some justification of racism and bigotry.
No other country except South Africa had anything close to Jim Craw laws. Name me one nation that forbad a minority of its own citizens from drinking from the same water faucet as the majority because of their skin color in the 60s?
One of the common myths in America is that if America made some mistakes (like in Jim Craw laws), other nations must have and would have done worse. That's what explains your reaction to Jim Craw laws. You believe that if America did such a horrible thing, other nation must have done worse. It is in my opinion a racist belief (we are better than everyone else). Yes some other nations could have done worse but its always true.
I wouldn't want to single out America for such things either unless they try to repeat it again.
But these wars waged by the US government don't seem to come to an end. It seems to me that the US government has too much leeway at the wanton killing of foreigners and destruction of their properties and that as long as the US government uses slogans (Operation Iraqi Freedom), most of the population is willing to look the other way when it comes to all these deaths.
The US government invaded Iraq against the will of the entire world and most importantly against the will of most people in the Middle East including the people of Iran (Iraq's enemies).
If this is not an authoritarian government, then please tell me what it is.
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No doubt, Either the terrorists surrender or they will get their virgins! Maybe, that's the only language they understand! They have started the war, therefore, they must surrender or they have to face the consequences!
Support Our Troops at http://www.AmericaSupportsYou.mil/
God bless Our Troops and their Families!
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I wholeheartedly agree with Karim, particularly about the nature of the "sectarian" violence in Iraq.
The Bushies make a huge blunder (typical) when they start making analogies with Hitler and WWII. If they knew their history better they wouldn't go there. Some Bushies don't even know that Hitler declared war on the US, positing the absurd notion that the US did so for altruistic reasons. They have no explanation for why the US waited more then two years to enter the fray. If the US hadn't been attacked by Japan, and had Germany not declared war in the same month (Dec 1941) they probably never would have, despite President Roosevelt's early recognition of the dangers of Nazi Germany.
You wouldn't believe it possible but Bushies claim that liberals in America were responsible for it's late entry into the war. Because they "Can't recognise evil"! In fact, it was American RW fascists (like Bush's grandfather Prescott) who didn't recognise evil in 1933, and still can't now, even though it is right under their nose.
Many previous bloggers have posited that the US is not responsible for the carnage in Iraq. These are mostly Bushies who have no concept of the Geneva Conventions. The conventions state unequivocally the an invading and occupying force becomes responsible, as a quasi-government, for everything that happens in the occupied territory. Period.
Besides the legal proscriptions, there is this: the deaths in an occupied country needn't be "at the hands" of the occupying force. The Germans knew this when they occupied Poland. Their first order of business (for the Einstatzgruppe) was to assasinate a small group of Polish Nationalists. Internecine violence between nationalists and ethnic Germans followed as sure as night follows day. Caught in the crossfire were "Jewish Bolsheviks" hated by almost everyone else. Of course the US Special Forces knows nothing of such tactics.
History correctly apportions blame for Nazi's genocide of Jews, Poles, Czechs, Gypsies, Hungarians, Romanians et al, whether they died at the hands of Nazi Germans or not.
And I assure you, dear reader, that America will be universally damned for what Bush has done in Iraq.
February 22, 2007 7:06 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 22, 2007 07:06
Handle:
Im glad you think war should no longer be an option on the table (Fareed Zakaria should take note of this).
On the on-going Iraqi bloodbath, you should understand that "sunni vs shia" is not an accurate description of what it is going on. The Kurds are also Sunni but notice that they are not fighting the Shia.
Aside from the invasion that created divisions among Iraqis (collaborator vs nationalist), the US government made it worse by promoting sectarian politics in a country where such system can only work with consensus not with the number of votes.
In the entire history of Iraq, no such in-fighting was ever recorded. War-mongering US officials and the cheer-leading mainstream US media love to tell people that they have nothing to do with the in-fighting but uses every opportunity to tell neighboring states to "stop interfering and creating havoc" in Iraq. Even Al-Jazeera was banned in Iraq (for 2 years now) because everything can influence what goes in Iraq except of course the US government: The God of this planet that is building the biggest US embassy in the world in Iraq.
The US government was warned about the dangers of invading Iraq, even by our coward Arab governments that are allied with the US government. Turkey refused to take part of this madness too.
It is not just the US government that is at fault here, you have the Fareed Zakarias, the Thomas Freedmans, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and of course all the think-tanks that lend their "expertise" (in war-mongering) to congressional hearings and meetings.
War decisions are largely made by select few (the above) and voters are fed propaganda to put a rubber stamp on it so they can do the actual fighting while Zakaria and Freedman are sitting in their offices lecturing people how great US power is.
This war must be stopped.
In you think you forgot, this is what war is. It is as brutal and as savage as it was before if not more (the new weapons are much more brutal actually):
http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqintroduction.html#INTRODUCTION
(what the media won't show because it is too graphic...that's right, people dying is too graphic for their taste)
February 20, 2007 9:24 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 20, 2007 09:24
Karim
This last one is the first post of yours that makes any sense at all.
I have repeatedly stated that I do not agree with the Iraq invasion or the reasons given for going in there in the first place.
As for the first Iraq war, I think if you are suggesting the the US was wrong in liberating Kuwait after the Iraqi attack, you may find five other people in the world who agree with you.
As for the "Highway of Death" I recall the fleeing Iraqi troops were like sitting ducks and -- too late -- but eventually someone called a halt to the shooting.
For me, it is beyond despicable that in the last decades of the 20th Century and the opening decade of the 21st, especially after learnig the lessons of Vietnam, war should be even an option on the table.
I would still like you to answer the question I posed earlier -- how is the US responsible for Iraqi killing Iraqi, Shi'a killing Sunni?
February 19, 2007 2:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 19, 2007 14:41
handle:
Please understand that I am not against America as a nation or as a country. My criticism is directed at the US government's policies that foreigners suffer from. I truly believe if the US government was bombing US cities the way it bombed Vietnam or Iraq, you wouldn't be accusing me of "blind hatred".
I am just tired of all these wars (that are sometimes cheered in America) and you should join us in condemning your own government for its blatant violations.
Every other independent Human Rights organization condemned harshly the brutality of the US government in these wars.
Your problem is that you have blind faith in your own government. No matter how many millions of people the US kills, you still attempt to argue that it was done in "good faith" or for a good reason. My answer to you is Jim Crow laws.
The US government is capable of evil just like any other government out there. Stop apologizing for it.
15 years ago I used to admire the US government. But since I saw what it did to Iraq and how brutal it was (highway of death, etc), I no longer have any respect for it. It bothered me a lot that a supposedly civilized government still cheers wars and the killing of human beings. In the end, I realized that it was like any other government out there. Considering its unmatched military power, and its record, we people of the world feels threatened by it today. THe US government can today bomb any country it wishes, literally anything anywhere anytime. You're not on the receiving end.
February 19, 2007 12:19 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 19, 2007 00:19
I'm a Kraut and I stand with the United States of America - the greatest Nation ever! If someone is against America, then he is against me too!
Here in Germany, and also in Europe, the NAZIS and Commmunists are still alive, therefore, it's no wonder, that anti-Americanism is wide spreaded across Europe. The reason is, is that the news-media are censored, so the people do not know, what's really going on. All news they get are one-sided.
However, Americans should give a big nothing about what the European hardheads are talking, because it's part of the NAZI-Propaganda here in Europe, especially here in Germany. In addition, Europe is a safe haven for terrorists.
America is doing great and there's nothing wrong with it! Iran is a dictatorship and the people over there cannot wait to get liberated. So what?
Thanks to the finest and brightest men and women of the United States - Our Troops!
Support the Troops at www.AmericaSupportsYou.mil
God bless America, Our Troops and their Families!
February 18, 2007 1:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 18, 2007 01:34
America Rules:
In a funny way, I find your post even more offensive than Karim's.
Karim's comments come from ignorance, myopia and hatred.
Yours come from bigotry and intolerance.
It is a pretty close call between the two of you, but, on balance, I think you are worse -- mostly because I think you are an American and should know better.
One can almost forgive Karim for his blindness, hatred and succumbing to propagandist hatred of America and anything American -- even as he reads that we do not condone violence and killing even when done by our government.
As for you ... well, you have been brought up with a Constitution that stands for equality, justice and tolerance. Yet, you write stuff which appears to come from an unthinking and unintelligent mind.
It's sad, that people like you and Karim exist.
February 17, 2007 7:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 17, 2007 19:37
America rules :
I wish you found an opportunity somewhere else to advertise your idiocy rather than taking valuable space here to do so .
February 17, 2007 5:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 17, 2007 17:48
I find the islamic ideaology to be one of violence, distrust, and condemnation of humans rights. Islam needs to be destroyed in order for their to be peace in the world.
February 17, 2007 4:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 17, 2007 16:47
PRINCETON NJ wrote:
"It's one of the great strengths of the country's political system, in fact."
The above typically doesn't apply to foreign issues. One is supposed to rally behind the president.
On the issue of Iraqi victims of US-led UN sanctions, the figure was not disputed by Albright when she was posed the question.
The UN which was imposing the sanction is the one that came up with the estimation.
Saddam was of course going to try to exploit this issue for his own benefits but that doesn't mean tens of thousands of children weren't dying unnecessary because US policy believed "the price was worth it".
US officials have stated that among the goals of the sanctions was to "push" the Iraqi population to revolt against the Iraqi government....by starving them.
This is not what civilized nations do. Killing innocent people directly or indirectly can never be justified.
February 17, 2007 1:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 17, 2007 13:44
Karim
It is fascinating to see you get more hysterical as the facts elude you.
Let's take the Jim Crow (btw, it's Jim Crow, not Jim Craw)laws. I think most Americans -- and I mean by that 99%+ -- would agree that they represent among the most shameful in our history. At the end of this message is a brief paragraph I picked out of the introduction on Wikipedia for your edification. You can do an Internet search on "Jim Crow" and get a plethora of information including historical references.
Now, let me ask if you are willing to say that suicide bombings, the 9-11 attack, the attack on the WTC a couple years before 9-11, the shelling of Israeli towns by HisbAllah and Hamas, are equally shameful periods for the Arabs.
What about the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in 1991? When the Kuwaitis and Saudis and Gulf states appealed to the US to do something, was that Arabs asking for intervention or was the US Government hearing mystical voices from outer space?
When the Saudis and Sunni Arab governments say that if the US does not get a handle on Iraqi violence, they may intervene to stop the rise of the Shi'a crescent, is this appeal for more action by the US, a call from Arabs, or is it more voices from Pluto?
Look, you keep saying we get mad when you criticize the US Government. Not so. We criticize our own government.
Okay, Jim Crow laws. Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. Women in Afghanistan were beaten for exposing flesh on ankles. Men were beaten for not wearing beards. In Iran, women are forced to wear coverings. Education is not allowed for them.
Is this what you are praising as a model?
In Saudi Arabia, no religion is allowed other than Islam. Is this your idea of tolerance?
I think you do have it all wrong. It is clear that governments act out of economic and political self interest. Much of US and western policy vis-a-vis the Middle East was geared to maintaining stability, even at the expense of supporting totalitarian and dictatorial regimes. President Bush said this was a mistake and the US should be more actively trying to promote democracy.
One can argue with either philosophy - indeed, one can legitimately say the US should do neither.
However, neither is an evil motive.
The US has not sought territory or to expropriate without payment another country's resources. The US got out of Kuwait after driving the Iraqi forces out.
By the way, the Kuwaitis did not start killing each other or shooting and bombing US forces after the US drove the Iraqis away. Why not?
The US did not even try to use Iraqi oil revenue to pay for rebuilding the infrastructure. If the Iraqis had not gone on this killing spree and driven out 700,000 to 1.8 million of their fellow citizens, and set off roadside bombs, the country would likely have had a massive Marshall Plan like buildout with power plants, roads, schools, hospitals.
But no ... you and your people cannot stand the idea that one person is a Sunni and another a Shi'a without wanting to kill, kill, kill.
BTW -- I think it was implicit in what I wrote originally, but I do acknowledge that in the aerial bombing before the 2003 march of troops into Iraq, many Iraqis were killed by US bombs. I have already said that is something I did not and do not support.
So, let us look into the future -- Iraq has lost 700,000 to 1.8 million, mostly Sunni people with means to get out. These are professionals and skilled people. Most of the Sunnis and Shi'a who intermarried -- according to press reports -- have been killed or displaced. This leaves a Shi'a society to rule most of Iraq -- other than the Kurdish areas.
What will you do with the remaining Sunnis? Share with them, all things, oil revenue, government? Or subject them to death squads as you have been?
What if the US had not stopped Saddam Hussein in Kuwait? Would Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, etc. be around?
___________
You have some legitimate complaints about US policy. Most Americans accept that and want to see us do better.
But your blind hatred based on ignorance and disinformation, is not acceptable.
Have a good life!
__
The Jim Crow Laws were state and local laws enacted in the Southern and border states of the United States and enforced between 1876 and 1965. They mandated "separate but equal" status for African Americans. In reality, this led to treatment and accommodations that were almost always inferior to those provided to white Americans. The Jim Crow period or the Jim Crow era refers to the time during which this practice occurred. The most important laws required that public schools, public places and public transportation, like trains and buses, have separate facilities for whites and blacks. (These Jim Crow Laws were separate from the 1800-66 Black Codes, which had restricted the civil rights and civil liberties of African Americans.) State-sponsored school segregation was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1954 in Brown v. Board of Education. Generally, the remaining Jim Crow laws were overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act; none were in effect at the end of the 1960's.
February 17, 2007 12:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 17, 2007 12:50
anonymous wrote:
"Would the United States military gladly welcome the day that they can fight wars without killing innocent(foreign) civilians? I bet you my life and the lives of my family they would."
If the military that you praise cared about the loss of innocent life, its shameless generals wouldn't have openly stated that "they don't do body counts"....of foreigners of course, US casualties are counted in well kept records, am I wrong?
Unfortunately, you are describing an ideal defense force, not an imperialist force that travels 5000 miles away to bomb civilian cities, destroy basic infrastructure (that killed sick and elderly people..but who cares, your military doesn't do body counts), and of course tortures people in prisons etc, not to mention daily psychological torture on children and women, etc.
The US military killed with impunity so many innocent people in check-points alone. US soldiers just sprayed people with bullets..because they are not so sure if an incoming car is hostile or not..well better kill them all to be sure, if they happen to be innocent, well tough luck..this is a war...pick up the corps and give them to their families if they have any left, and move on.
Please enough with the propaganda. The US army is guilty of war crimes.
February 17, 2007 12:14 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 17, 2007 12:14
Patriot:
I am not sure when Arabs asked for help from the US government in the last 30 years or so. Would you mind listing few examples?
Everyone in the Middle East knows what the US government did to Iran before the Shah was installed by the CIA, before most Arabs or Persians (for the matter) knew what America was. In case you attempt to deny, here is the full disclosure of the CIA operation:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html
The involvement in this coup by the CIA was denied for least 40 years until it was declassified in the 90s. During those years, we heard from people like you the same excuses that you are posting today: That the US government does not do these things deliberately, that the US government's policy can never be evil or disingenious.
On Jim Craw laws, I only brought it to show readers what the US government is capable of doing and because one poster continue to claim that the US government's wrongdoings are never intended.
All my criticism, harsh (and well deserved) sometimes because of all these deaths, is directed at the US government exclusively. For some reason, you get offended when people criticize your government. You can criticize Arab governments all you want and I will not defend them as long as you don't turn it into some justification of racism and bigotry.
No other country except South Africa had anything close to Jim Craw laws. Name me one nation that forbad a minority of its own citizens from drinking from the same water faucet as the majority because of their skin color in the 60s?
One of the common myths in America is that if America made some mistakes (like in Jim Craw laws), other nations must have and would have done worse. That's what explains your reaction to Jim Craw laws. You believe that if America did such a horrible thing, other nation must have done worse. It is in my opinion a racist belief (we are better than everyone else). Yes some other nations could have done worse but its always true.
I wouldn't want to single out America for such things either unless they try to repeat it again.
But these wars waged by the US government don't seem to come to an end. It seems to me that the US government has too much leeway at the wanton killing of foreigners and destruction of their properties and that as long as the US government uses slogans (Operation Iraqi Freedom), most of the population is willing to look the other way when it comes to all these deaths.
The US government invaded Iraq against the will of the entire world and most importantly against the will of most people in the Middle East including the people of Iran (Iraq's enemies).
If this is not an authoritarian government, then please tell me what it is.
February 17, 2007 11:22 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 17, 2007 11:22