Good site! I'll stay reading! Keep improving!

When Muslims stop blowing people up in the name of their religion, then they can complain about what people say about it. Until then, sticks, stones, bombs and bullets are what Muslims throw at others, so words in return are paltry by comparison.

It seems Mr Liu is one of the large number of dissident capitalists who is disgruntled with the communist domination of Hong Kong that he scapegoats Muslims. I wonder if ending dialogue is really a brilliant move, given every major religious figure in history, from Moses Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, to Confucius respected 'dialogue', diplomacy and "verbal communication" rather than complete separation and silence or open hostility. I wonder where that places Mr Liu?
I wonder if Mr Liu has considered that there may be close to 150 million Muslims in China and that Muslims have been a part of Chinese history for 1000 years, but they should be silent and have no say?

Just before Benedict became Pope:
Just before he became pope last year, Benedict declared that Turkey should not be allowed into the European Union because its Islamic culture is incompatible with the "Christian" culture of Europe. But the real case for the prosecution rests on his invitation to Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci to visit him at Castel Gandolfo last September...........................,
It certainly wasn't a religious visit, since Fallaci, who died last week, was an atheist, and her fame as a war correspondent and interviewer was decades behind her. But she carved out a second career as the most extreme anti-Muslim writer in Europe, producing two best-selling books since 2002 that vilified Muslims as dirty subhumans who multiply "like rats," and portraying Islam as an irrational religion that breeds hatred.
The title of her second-to-last book, the one that presumably inspired the pope's invitation, was The Force of Reason, whose core argument was that the West is rational and reasonable, whereas Muslims aren't. And there was Benedict in Germany last week, saying exactly the same thing. What a coincidence.
GWYNNE DYER (Columbus Dispatch-OH 9/19/06)

Islamophobia dates back to the time of the Crusades, and is entwined with our chronic anti-semitism. Some of the first Crusaders began their journey to the Holy Land by massacring the Jewish communities along the Rhine valley; the Crusaders ended their campaign in 1099 by slaughtering some 30,000 Muslims and Jews in Jerusalem.
KAREN AMSTRONG

What would the Pope say about what is mentioned in the Bible, namely in the book of Deuteronomy: On entering any land, Moses and those with him are to kill all its males by the sword. However, no one is to be left living in the territories of the Land of Promise.
This means annihilation, which was executed by the Christian Europeans against the native American when they entered America, and against native Australians when they entered Australia.
M. SELIM EL-AWA (IUMS)

Chronicle 15:12-13
"All who would not seek the Lord, the G-d of Israel, were to be put to death,weather
small or great, man or woman."

truly:"No reason to be offended, those were not the Pope's words... He was just quoting the Bible."

This article disregards that:

1) The Islamic Association of China is a government institution, and clearly serves the geopolitical interest of the PRC.

2) To generalize that "Muslims are again proving to be surprisingly thin-skinned" is not only an extreme generalization of well over a billion people, but ignores the fact that Muslim Chinese (Hui, Uyghur, Kazakh, etc.) are quite different and unique from not only from Muslims outside China, but from one another as well.

3) "An English-language newspaper in Hong Kong wasn't happy either" - therefore saying that Muslims are being thin-skinned is contradicted by Mr. Liu's own argument, since the Hong Kong editorial was most likely not written by a Muslim. Non-Muslims apparently have criticized the Pope as well.

4) If Mr. Liu wants to send a message to Chinese Muslims, might I suggest a) writing in Chinese and b) publishing your message in a Chinese newspaper (and not his former home of Apple Daily, in Hong Kong, which is not available in Mainland China). Because I can tell you that Chinese Muslims are not regular readers of PostGlobal.

5) Finally, given Mr. Liu's propensity for generalizing about all Muslims being thin-skinned and medieval, I would ask him how he would like it if I generalized in a similar way about all Chinese being thin-skinned and uncivilized. Would he approve if I lumped Hong Kongers, Chinese-Americans, PRC leaders, Taiwanese, Southeast Asian Chinese and the people of Macau all into one group that I labeled "thin-skinned"? I don't think so, especially given his strong anti-CCP feelings he has expressed elsewhere.

All this article provides is a forum for an endless string of affirmations of baseless generalizations of Muslims, and otherwise provides no information whatsoever except for the authors own tired and inconsequential political slant.

I whole heartedly agree with you. We have to speak with no fear and punish and expell those who will not agree to free speach.

If people are really interested in numbers, I have a question: how many muslims stand up and fight against those so-called extremists? I know one, Wafa Sultan, but unfortunately she is not a self-claimed muslim.
There're far more terror fighters than freedom fighters among the muslims, right?
How come?

I believe that the intolerant behavior is what is making its way into the news as that is what is newsworthy. The majority of Muslims do not agree with this approach and quite frankly are silent on the topic altogether, knowing, or hoping it will go away. The extremists are of course going to be interested inciting, and supporting behavior that is violent in the streets - tossing grenades into churches etc. These types of activities make it into the headlines for further exploitation. I have even read direct quotes where christians are threatened with violence if they agree that Muslim are violent suggesting a doule standard ? I do not believe Muslims are violent, however I do agree that the extremists in the Muslim faith are using vilolence to their ends - -this is not the entire Muslim world, nor a majority of Muslims.
The President of Tehran , also, does not represent the majority of Muslims. He does represent a political agenda that dominates Iran, and the authoritarian regime there. In closing the vast majority of muslims are not at all involved in what amounts to criminal acts against the innocent. Oh, that reminds me, there is one other thing the extremists - again a small number -extremists are good at - again a small segment of the Muslim population - they are good at killing innocent people and civilians. They do this extremely well and are proud of it.

Such Comment - "apology from the Pope is not enough" - is exactly what I anticipated. Violence will continue because people's hidden political agenda has not been met, and the Pope's quote is only an excuse for them to advance their agenda.

The same can be said of communist China, who claimed that she would not hesitate to use military means to take back Taiwan, against the wish of 23 million Taiwanese who are enjoying a democratic system and can elect their own president.

To me, "...leave us alone, get out of our lives" sounds so similar to the claim of Chinese leaders to the world, "Shut up and mind your own business. Taiwan reunification by whatever means including force is an internal affair of China and even UN cannot interfere."

It seems that Communist China and the extremists share some common grounds in their thinking. And too many of us have forgotten that in the "Autonomous Region" of Xinjiang in North-Western China, muslims and Uyghurs are still subjected under Beijing's dictatorial rule.

How clever of Muslims to claim offence and place the focus on the Pope and the non-Muslim world.

In all the articles, blogs and comments I have read recently, not a single one refutes the link between Islam and violence. The very issue raised by the Pope.

While Islam was certainly not the first faith to openly embrace the use of violence, it sadly appears to be the last.

As someone of Irish descent, I am very aware of the fact that until the IRA and its political wing Sinn Féin were prepared to stop and denounce violence, the world was not going to understand or respect the Irish people or their cause. The guns and bombs had to be silenced first.

The same is true of Islam. The Pope, as head of the once violent Catholic Church, understands that more than most. His speech was not meant to offend but to enlighten. He did offend and he has expressed his sorrow. His point remains, however. For the world to recognize Islam as one of the great faiths and for non-Muslims to understand and respect Muslims and their cause. The guns and bombs must silenced first.

I wonder who these jihadists are. The Pope is a jihadist, a fundamentalist and an extremist just like those he is critizing.
Every time someone abuses Islam there is a tendency to call the Muslims reaction to an overaction by jihadists. The Pope's comments were meant exactly to inflame Muslim opinion and they did.
All the Muslims are saying is leave us alone, get out of our lives, stop dictating to us, we don't want or need your opinion and stop lecturing us about democracy, freedom or Western values. Since nobody seems to be listening to the Muslims, then we have to make these Westerners listen.
The point is not wether Muslims are violent or not, it is why do people want to actually test how Muslims will respond?
Apology from the Pope is not enougH, he said what he said and anybody who takes on him is justified. It is not mandatory that people accept his apology.

We seem to be practising appeasement of Muslims much as on the same basis of Chamberlain did with Hitler on the eve of world war 2. The double standards that Islamicists operate on seems to ever grow. One would think the press is Muslim owned and controlled with the amount of Islamcentric and Arab dominated articles available on a daily basis. Mohammed is a prophet not a diety and this is forgotten by Muslims who seem to hold him more sacred than the entity that should have their attention. Do not forget that he had 6 Wifes one he married at the age of 6! and consumated at the age of 9! Islamists bleet when cartoons are made by others but continually satirise Westerners and People of other faiths. They legitimise this by claiming that they did nothing wrong (Acting like and offended child). The Pope inadvertantly opened a debate which has been superseded by chinese whispers. In doing so he has shown these people for what they are they can throw the stones but dont like them being thrown back. The time has come to stop being politically correct and tell Muslims what we really think and fear. Then true dialogue can begin and we can all get on with our lives.

Good article.

The one thing that is being ignored - have any of the so-called intelligent Muslim leaders read what the Pope said?

I doubt it. One can only have contempt and disgust for people like this.

To understand the reaction of Muslims to Pope quote from a historical text you have to understand Islamic religion and their culture (or lack of it). We cannot project civilized ideas and hope that they share with us "universal" point of view on what is good and what is evil. We have Ten Commandments, Wisdom of Confucius and Buddha Teachings. Their "holy" books are full of brutality that is hard comprehend. Here is one quote how to treat those who question the "Prophet":

Kitab Al-Hudud, book 38, no 4348:

(...) "One night she [wife-slave] began to slander the Prophet and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet was informed about it.
(...) He sat before the Prophet and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her. Thereupon the Prophet said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood."

Pregnant mother and her child is killed by a "good Muslim husband and father" with a dagger - the "prophet" commends him for defending the "religion". Does this came from the God or straight from the hell? But imagine reading this thousands of times in your life and following this primal madness.

The recent violent Islamic outburst is not a matter of a thin skin but a matter of literal following the "teachings" of the "prophet". Anybody who questions the 'prophet" has to be killed.

Unfortunately, we, as a civilized world, are deeply ignorant about Islam. Information is carefully sanitized either by Muslims (deception is a part of the conquest) or our own politically correct paralysis.

I had contacts with Muslims at the university many years ago. Initially, I was impressed by this religion but after a while I discovered with horror that those people simply lied to me. I heard that Christians were oppressing Muslims in Sudan, that Christians experience such a tolerance in Islamic counties, that they also recognize Jesus as a prophet. Well after a few years of ignorance I know who is being slaughtered in Sudan, I also know the meaning of Islamic tolerance from Christian Arabs who escaped Islamic hell and the story about Jesus is that He did not die on the cross but He would came back to Earth to kill all Christians - infidels (sic). How twisted! Please educate yourself about this religion and the danger the entire world in facing (web, books):

www.faithfreedom.org
Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out
Why I Am Not a Muslim
The Myth of Islamic Tolerance: How Islamic Law Treats Non-Muslims

We enjoy the achievements of our civilization and desperately try to forget the unpleasant truth that there is a religion that wants to destroy us. With the knife on our throats we still analyze "peaceful" meaning of jihad and the "compassionate" nature of Islam. Please seek more information and suddenly you start to understand what is happening around you.

I think the quote made by the Pope has been distorted and blown out of proportion by a handful of extremists but their view is not shared by all Muslims. I believe no religion will advocate violence as the means to bring peace.

The Pope has apologised, but is it the end of the story? If Taiwanese government yields to the "One China Policy" (which includes Taiwan) of communist China, do you think China will one day stop her military threat against Taiwan?

Whether or not the Pope's a bigot still doesn't warrant the senseless violence and death by militant Muslims against innocent people.

Bigotry vs Murder? Both wrong but murder is way more severe. Case closed.

The article is confused and unsupported by facts. Here is why:

>The West must apologize for every little impolite thing it utters about Islam >while the Islamic world can say anything it wishes about Christianity ..

Islam recognizes Christianity as a religion from God, though it interprets Jesus Christ differently (as a prophet). So 'Islam' cannot insult Christianity or Christ because that would mean blashphemy from an Islamic viewpoint as well.

>If the Bible, and not the Koran, were flushed down a toilet, do you think any >Muslims would be outraged?

Certainly I would be outraged, and any right-thinking Muslim would be too. The belief of Muslims is that Jesus Christ brought the word of God, though it was distorted. In any case, insulting God or His prophets or His Book is a grave sin in Islam.

I think this pope is a bigot

Excellent and thank you.

Joan

Muslims are not just "thin skinned", they are increasingly deceptive regarding Mohammed. Reverence for Mohammed does not mean his actions should be covered up. He was a violent man, responsible for attacking those who would not submit to his teaching, notably the three Jewish clans near Medina. His final speech at Mecca (early 632), exhorted his followers to fight until the whole world submitted to Allah, and the so-called "sword verse" (Koran, Sura 9:5) has been used to justify attacks on non-Moslims by Islamic jusrists. The Pope was right.

The Catholic Church's history is well documented and well debated. There is no denying the sins of the past. The world has been watching very closely for a very long time. As a Catholic, I wouldn't want it any other way.

My faith, and the men and women that represent it, are not above the law. The next priest to be caught abusing children should contemplate his sins from the very same prison as every other convicted criminal. History has shown us that every organized religion has proven to be vulnerable to evil - from top to bottom.

Let me ask the question: who is watching Islam? Recent history suggests that Islam is unable to police itself. Horrific crimes against humanity are committed every day with the full blessing (and often participation) of representatives of Islam. Not just members of Islam, but Islamic leaders.

The Pope and everyone else can keep their opinions to themselves or face the wrath of the very element within Islam that needs to be scrutinized most.

There was a time that the Catholic Church feared words and ideas. A time when mere dissent could be fatal. That time has come and gone. The same can be said of every other organized religion, except one. Islam. Precisely the point being made in the first place.

Yes! It's about time someone eloquently states that more and more muslims around the globe see themselves as holier than thou. That they practice a double standard where they can bash, behead and ridicule other peoples beliefs as long as it's not theirs.
If you can't take it. Don't dish it!

Where did you get that 1% number from Joe?

Why are you surprised? These people see our rights as weaknesses. There can never be any, emphasis any, dialogue as long as one side denies the rights of the other to exist and will continue to use any pretext to commit violence against what they call infidels. I have read that this represents only a small fringe group of radical extremists, about 1%. If that is true, about 10 million are radical, hardly a fringe group.

Just read "May's" response. All I can say is what a fool. What hurts more, May? A little verbal jab or a beheading? Of course, if you're dealing with a fool like May, or a person needing a nanny like a jihadist, then a verbal slight can lead to a beheading. But that's still because of fools and nannyists, not because of reasonable people who talk in reasonable ways.

The world should not make way for fools.

This Liu guy is an idiot.

First, he needs to remove the bigotry and
hatred for Mulsims in his heart. It clouds his judgement.

Second, he needs to realize that the vast majority of Muslims are normal people, just like you and I. They have hopes, aspirations, desires, needs, like anyone else. Included in that is their love for religion. Not every muslim is a crazed "jihadist".

Third, Idiot Liu needs to understand that the Pope's right to make negative statements on Islam were a little heavier than "freedom of speech". He does after all represent the Vatican, he is the voice of Catholics, he has a connection to God (as Christians believe). His words have HUGE impact in the world. Seems to me, the Pope ought to be held to a higher standard in what he says.

Fourth, Liu seems to imply that its okay to trash Muslims because "they" do it too. Make up your mind...are you holding yourself to a higher moral standard than the jihadists, or not? Seems like Liu-the-idiot is itching to drop from this higher standard.

For a supposedly tough people, some of these jihadists seem to be incredibly vulnerable to verbal slights. Makes me think that they belong in a nursery with a nanny rather than being allowed out on the streets where they might hurt themselves or someone else.

"Freedom of speech?" right, as if many european/american countries don't have a ban on what is referred to as "hate-ful speech". There is a difference between being thick skinned and being an idiot who lets others take advantage of him/her. Small insults small racist remarks and so on add up as you well know from the events of the past century... that's how genocidal situations are created, when the small "comments" and sentiments grow into big ones, and one would truly be an idiot to stand for that.-- A much better analysis (versus this poorly thoughout poorly written peice can be found here:) http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1875791,00.html

Everyone, please keep your religious arguments to yourself and leave us all alone.

God this, Mohammed that, just SHUT UP!

Well said. When people following Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism etc are so tolerant about other religions including Islam, I wonder what makes Muslims behave as if they own the planet. Did the Muslims ever wonder how they are insulting Hindu Gods, Jesus Christ and Buddha? What right do they have to use Blaspemous words about Christ, Krishna or Buddha when they can't tolerate views about Mohammed in the first place? The Pope has apologized but would any muslim cleric ever apologize for their blaphemous statements about Gods revered by other religions? I wish Muslims mind their owb business and stop calling names about Gods/Prophets in Hindu, Christian, Buddhist or Sikh Religions.

I agree. I don't think the pope should have any more to say as far as apologies go; the media has already twisted what he actually said in "apology" into their own form of appeasement. In addition, I find it very ironic that the response by some islamic radicals to what the pope quoted about islam being a religion spread by the sword was violent protests going as far as killing a nun.

Very nice article. It is time someone stood up and said no more backing down, no more beating around the bush. If they can rant and rave about evil christians, then it should be our right to do the same to them.

Perfect as stated. I totally agree.

Well said. These folks seem to be looking for any excuse, however flimsy, to holler about their hurt feelings and then retaliate. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they got fewer headlines.
Thanks.

Well said.