Kayhan Barzegar is a Research Fellow at the Belfer Center, Harvard university's Kennedy School of Government. He teaches international relations and Iran's foreign policy in Tehran. In 2002-2003, he was a Postdoctoral Research Fellow at the London School of Economics (LSE). His Latest publications entitled: Iran's Foreign Policy towards the New Iraq (CSR Publications: 2007), Iran’s Foreign Policy toward Iraq and Syria, (Turkish Policy Quarterly: 2007), and New Terrorism and Human Security in the Middle East: Diverging Perceptions (Book chapter, Wageningen Academic Publishers: 2007). His research fields are Iran’s foreign policy, Iran-U.S. relations, and Middle East politics.
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Kayhan Barzegar
Tehran, Iran
Kayhan Barzegar is a Research Fellow at the Belfer Center, Harvard university's Kennedy School of Government. He teaches international relations and Iran's foreign policy in Tehran.
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Wow! What to do? What to do? So much hostility and confusion. How can anyone profit from such scenarios? 10000 nukes dropped anywhere in the world and within three years everyone will be dead from radiation poisioning. Even the roaches might not survive. I better go wash my dishes...
Dan and Faramarz, trying to talk sense to Thermopylae is a waste of time.
But both of your points are good ones. But one comment by Faramarz really bothered me, athough I have to admit that it is probably correct. We really haven't won a war since WWII. I would be ashamed to even consider Panama or Grenada.
Invading a defenseless little island and rescuing a couple of third-rate medical students is not something to be proud of.
Afghanistan was the one war since WWII that united all americans. It was a just war and it looked pretty good for a while. But it isn't looking like a definitive one for the win column for us.
These buffoons took their eye off the ball and started a second and unjust war that has divided our nation. And even worse, has contributed to more than doubling the nation's debt form $4 Trillion to over $9Trillion. All of this for a nation with a $13 Trillion economy amid a financial, housing, manufacturing, and service downturn and facing a another $450Billion to $700Billion deficit for 2009.
And God help us, McCain wants to start a new war against Iran. Where are the true patriots in this country to rise and set our great country back on its proper course?
These buffoons and incompetents are playing right into the al-Qaeda playbook. They are bleeding us into bankruptcy.
You did not understand well the authors' real message. He is trying to send a srong message including:
1. Iran is a rising nation and it does not care as the past relying too much on the West. As far as it has wealth and talent it is free to go everywhere and balance its international relations;
2. The West is no longer the only exporter of technology and military hardware;
3. The world has changed and it is not like the past that America could go everywhere makeing mess and getting out easily; It is because of the fact that some middle range powers like Iran accessd deterence power. If the Bush Administartion could challenge Iran, no doubte it would;
4. Lastly: Sanctioning , threathing, and isolating Iran means losing to China and Russia in the Middle East.
Iran has been present in the region for thousand years and will be.
Thermopylae:
Quoting "it is the mission of propaganidists such as this auhor to instill the notion that the problem can be solved in any way other than the application of massive american military power. End of quote.
Anyone, no offense intended, with the least amount of intelligence and common sense would know regardless of a country's military power if it is not backed with a just cause it is void of its capabilities.
With the exception of couple of South American cake walks, the US has actually not won any major wars in the last Seventy years. And, the current administration, thanks to few sound heads, outside this adminitration, still left in Washington, has wisely decided to go out without being recorded in the history books as the only administration who has lost Three wars at the same time.
CHINA IS THE LAND OF VAMPIRES WHICH IS ALSO AN UNIQUE NATION ON THIS PLANET THAT HAS ENJOYED TO EXECUTE ITS CHINESE CITIZENS TO HARVEST HUMAN BODY-PARTS, FLESH TO MAKE MONEY! AND THE ENTIRE WORLD HAS SEEN IN THE DAY LIGHT! THEN FOR SURE ANY WORST MEANS TO MAKE MONEY THIS CHINA NATION WHICH HAS BEEN CONTROLLED BY THE COMMUNIST CHINESE VAMPIRES OR ECONOMICAL THUGS, THESE WORST ANIMAL-LIKE THUGS WILL OBVIOUSLY DO ALL WORST THINGS TO MAKE MONEY AS USUAL!
WHO ON EARTH CAN DO BUSINESS WITH THE CHINESE VAMPIRES? THESE VAMPIRES CAN EXTRACT THEIR OWN PEOPLE BLOOD, FLESH, HUMAN-ORGANS FOR MAKING MONEY THEN WHAT ELSE THEY WON'T DO TO ANY OF YOU??????? AND YOUR NATIONS AND YOUR PEOPLE WHEN PLAYING WITH THE BARBAROUS CHINA OR VAMPIRES???
IF YOU FEEL HORRIBLE TO OBSERVE CROCODILES AND SHARKS KILL OTHERS ANIMALS IN WATER! HOWEVER, THESE CROCS AND SHARKS FOLKS NEVER KILL AND EXPLOIT THEIR OWN SPECIES! WHILE ON THIS PLANET CHINA DOES! THIS IS THE NATURE OF THE VAMPIRES AND ONLY CHINA HAS THESE KINDS OF UNBELIEVABLE HUMAN CRIMES! YOU WILL DISCOVER YOURSELVES THAT CROCCODILES AND SHARKS ARE MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN CHINESE VAMPIRES!
IN ESSENCE, NEVER EVER DANCE WITH THE VAMPIRES! OR NEVER DANCE WITH COMMUNIST CHINA!!!!! AND CHINESE VAMPIRES!!!!
THE WORLD MUST BE VERY CAREFUL TO LET CHINESE ENTER THEIR NATIONS! DUE TO CHINESE SPIES ARE MANY AS FLIES NOW!
CHINESE STEAL EVERYTHING FROM ANY NATION IN SEVERAL ASPECTS FROM LANDS, TECHNOLOGIES, NATURAL RESOURCES!
CHINESE GAINS THAT MEAN THE WORLD LOSES!
STAY AWAY FROM CHINESE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE UNLESS SOMEONE WANTS TO DANCE WITH THIS WORLD NASTIEST LIAR, THIEF, SPY, BOOTHLEGGER, CHEATER, MURDERER, AND DIRTY-TRICKER!
CHINA IS THE LAND OF THIEVES, BOOTHLEGGERS, FAKED PRODUCTS MAKERS, POISONED MECHANDISES EXPORTER!
CHINA IS THE LAND OF THE SHAMELESS AND DIRTIEST CULTURE! LAND OF THIEVES LAND OF FAKERS, LAND OF CHEATERS, LAND OF LIARS! LAND OF HUMAN-ORGANS COLLECTORS AND EXPORTERS FROM SEVERAL THOUSANDS EXECUTED CHINESE!
WHO ON EARTH STILL WANT TO DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MURDERER AND CHEATER CHINA?
DON'T SELL ANY KINDS OF NATURAL RESOURCES TO CHINA! LET CHINA HARVEST THEIR OWN HUMAN-ORGANS FROM THEIR OWN CHINESE TO WAKE UP ALL SLEEPING CHINESE TO TAKE CONTROL THEIR NATION CHINA FROM THE EXTREMELY BLOODY COMMUNIST CHINESE THUGS OR LEADERS!
CHINA IS THE LAND WHICH CAN ENJOY TO EXECUTE ITS CITIZENS TO HARVEST HUMAN BODY-PARTS TO MAKE MONEY! THEN ANY WORST MEANS TO MAKE MONEY THIS NATION CONTROLLED BY THE COMMUNIST VAMPIRES OR THUGS THESE BAD ANIMAL-LIKE THUG WILL DO ALL!
WHO ON EARTH CAN DO BUSINESS WITH THE CHINESE VAMPIRES? THESE VAMPIRES CAN EXTRACT THEIR OWN PEOPLE BLOOD FOR MONEY THEN WHAT ELSE THEY WON'T DO TO ANY OF YOU???????
NEVER DANCE WITH THE VAMPIRES! OR NEVER DANCE WITH COMMUNIST CHINA!!!!!
Believe me when I say that there were and are alot of Muslims with "real balls" who want to spread OUR VALUES OF tolerance, equality, and individual rights to the Muslim world.
The problem is that everytime they stand to speak, their leaders imprison, torture and kill them.
The sad thing about this is that this torture and execution is not occurring in just Iran. A large number of these human right violations occur in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc.
And think about it, who is Mubarak, Abdullah of Saudi, and Abdullah of Jordan without US Support?
In the face of this oppression, the Islamic Brotherhood, al-Qaeda, and Hamas rise. Sure they are terrorist groups, but we can't absolve our sins and responsibility for their creations. We have a hand in radicalizing a segment of that population.
Do you know that in Saudi Arabia, they still carry out public executions for "witchcraft"?
Do you know that in Jordan, the majority of its population are considered second-class citizens and not allowed to hold relevant government, military and business positions?
Do you know that in Egypt, the "President" has been in power for over 2 decades and is now grooming his son to become the next "President"?
Do you know that in Bahrain, a minority Sunni Bedouin tribe hold on to power and restrict rights to majority of populace due to their pact with the British (originally) and now US?
Do you know that in UAE, the majority of the population are Iranian and are perhaps the largest financial block in Dubai, yet the rulers are a group of minority Bedouins who owe their very survival to the British and US?
Where is the justice and democracy in this? And then we ask why these people don't like the US policies and why a segment has taken up arms against us.
"I wish you could tell them about OUR WAY OF LIFE, convince them that SECULAR HUMANISM is the best for all......... until a Muslim with real balls figures out how to spread OUR VALUES OF tolerance, equality, and individual rights to the Muslim world."(Aaron)
Now don't you go showing off balls that you don't have either. What values of tolerance, equality and individual rights are yours?violent agression, inequality the negation of individual rights:
in Palestine, all over Lebanon in 2006,Shock and awe, bombs, assasinations, waterboardings, carpet bombings and sonic booms, collective punishment etc..etc..How dare you lay claim to these principles :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism
I was happy to hear it said by Lara Marlowe on TV5 lately, that whenever a rocket is launched from Palestine it's immediately covered in the news but the almost daily bombings that Israel inflicts on the occupied territories are not even mentioned in
the news.That silence of a non objective media doesn't rhyme with the 'search for truth' which is a tenet of secular humanism.
Something is very wrong not just with radical Islam but with its enemies who are actively persuing their agendas and hide behind false values in a we against them preparation for war.
What's more, if you try to access the Ellsberg story from Truthout.org website, you will find out that AOL/Microsoft-Hotmail are trying to prevent delivery of the Truthout story. I hope that you can access it in Alternet.
Who are the aggressors, Robert? Who are the barbarians, Aaaron?
A CHINA NÃO É AMEAÇA, MAS UM NECESSÁRIO EQUILIBRIO MUNDIAL.
A China não é o monstro que querem rotular para a opinião pública mundial.
Nos últimos cinco anos, o país, através de suas exportações, foi o principal responsável pela contenção de abusos inflacionários em países ricos e pobres. Havia uma cultura empresarial de produzir pouco e ganhar muito, com o excesso de protecionismo a maus e incompetentes empresários, pelo próprio Estado. E as concorrências ficaram mais acirradas, exigindo, do setor produtivo, modernização tecnológica, capacidade gerencial e preços. E o povo já começou a usufruir desses benefícios que chegaram direta ou indiretamente.
Por outro lado, não se denunciam os absurdos cometidos pelo atual modelo capitalista, concentrador de riquezas, volátil, fabricador das crises de 1929, 1987, 2007 e de muitas outras, que descapitalizaram e desorganizaram a economia de paises pobres e em desenvolvimento. A subprime das Letras Hipotecárias é um forte exemplo disso. O mercado financeiro ganhou bilhões de dólares com essas crises pré-fabricadas e maquiado nos balanços contábeis. E os Bancos Centrais ficaram coniventes com elas.
Voltando ao assunto China, o país já está dando demonstrações claras e reais de que será um grande aliado dos brasileiros e vejamos por que:
- De 2004 a 2007 importou do Brasil mais de USD 31, 3 bilhões de e exportou USD 29, 6, acusando um saldo a nosso favor, na balança comercial, de mais de USD 1,7 bilhões;
- Já é o terceiro maior importador de produtos brasileiros, atrás somente dos Estados Unidos e da Argentina. Em curto prazo, passará a ser o primeiro.
- Acho até salutar que os Chineses interfiram no controle dos preços do aço, que tiveram aumentos despropositados, nos últimos anos, adquirindo um terço do controle acionário da Xstrata. O monopólio nessa área é prejudicial ao Brasil e aos demais países em desenvolvimento. De 2004 a 2007, o minério de ferro, teve um aumento acumulado de mais de 170% (um absurdo) A Vale ou qualquer outra empresa, nacional ou não, não pode continuar impondo preços descabidos para os seus produtos e que chegam a influenciar decisivamente a geração de inflação, além de prejudicar o desenvolvimento de qualquer Nação.
-Cobrar da China, de cultura e costumes milenares, com um quarto (1/4) da população mundial, a liberdade total de informação e imediata, é criar instrumentos poderosos para a desorganização do Estado Continente. Essa mudança tem que vir paulatinamente, para realmente gerar benefícios econômicos, políticos e sociais.
- Não precisamos brigar com a China ou depreciá-la, mas sim, aproveitar as imensas possibilidades que o país nos oferece para se tornar o maior importador de produtos brasileiros. Em resumo, a China é pior em que, em comparação com o regime capitalista que concentrou quase 50% de todas as riquezas em mãos de apenas 2% da população mundial? E olhe ainda que os Chineses, com as suas reservas internacionais, estão financiando mais de 8% do deficit do Tesouro americano. Estão realmente fazendo o bem, ao dispertar o capitalismo para uma realidade que invista mais no capital humano
I have been researching on the China activities in Africa. It is amazing to know that how it started first and reached to the today's level. It first started with exporting daily consumption commodities and now reached to a huge amount and major economic agreements with African governments. One of the reasons that led African states toward China is their frustration from the obtaining the Western financial supports and investmwnts. In this context, the author is right. China impact on global economy and its consequences are important for the world.
Sorry Robert but "Death to America" is pretty clear. Al-Qaeda is not Iran, but they both embody violent Islamism (for Iran, obviously the leadership, not the people). And "Iran" (that is the militant Islamists who run the place) cannot attack us anywhere. Because it would be suicide... at least until they get nukes. This has nothing to do with the people of Iran, or Iran's rightful place as a Gulf player and (potential) economic power house. In this game of non-lethal capitalist competition between capitalist democracies, we can all win. The problem is Iran also plays the Islamic terror game. AS you mentioned, holding the threat of terror attack on civilians, all over the world, soon to be nuclear armed. If you want to be unfair in the game like that, rest assured, we will be unfair with our ridiculously superior conventional military. You may be prepared to risk that the "pragmatic" mullahs will beat the "mad" ones. The problem is, by the time we know, it will be too late.
Mohammed, obviously if the Muslim world were as enlightened and educated as you, we would have no problems. I totally disagree with American foriegn policy vis-avis Iran, in particular toppling democratically elected leaders because they "lean left." Ridiculous, but in the context of the cold war, I see where they were coming from. I however was not alive then, nor for the Shah's brutal reign. I completely understand the hatred of America, the desire for vengence. For these reasons, I take it very seriously, and I'm not going to let it destroy me or pretend it isn't a powerful force, just because I know where it is coming from. For these reasons, militant Islam will not be allowed to sit at the nuclear table.
Spiderman2 says..'The reason why the U.S is the greatest country is because it is the country that fit to the description of Apostle Paul which says that the children of faith and NOT the children of works (this includes the four major religions [ Islam, Budhism, Hinduism, Judaism'
perhaps spiderman2 might consider taking a deep breath and stop trying to rule the world; you sound like a fundamentalist not much different than a terrorist!
Obviously capitalist democracy with inalienable individual freedom is the way to go. If we allow the oppression of dictators and monarchs who have sworn not to attack us to be replaced by the oppression of mullah/politicos (see: Iran) who are sworn to destroy us, I don't see how that advances freedom and liberty for the people of those countries. Got a proposed solution, or just more cute remarks?
Mohammed,
You can print your name and details because there is no "takfiri" equivalent in our culture. You can say what you want, and we will argue peacefully. I appreciate your viewpoint. It is a beautiful thing. I'm glad you enjoy it. Since I am against (in fact, at war with) Islamism and the genocidal hatred codified in the Koran, I am not so lucky.
Believe me, I do not judge the terrorists. They are human beings, programmed to a worldview by their observation of reality and intellectual inputs just like you and I. I wish you could tell them about our way of life, convince them that secular humanism is the best for all, that their mullahs have enslaved their minds. Since you instead take the easy path and pretend that terrorism is "justified" and that if we just surrender to the Islamist dream we will be rewarded with peace, we will have to wait (and defend ourselves) until a Muslim with real balls figures out how to spread our values of tolerance, equality, and individual rights to the Muslim world.
Iran is not a sworn enemy of the US. Those who cross the atlantic to hurt our civilians are our sworn enemies.
These mullahs, mad as some of them may be, are by and large pragmatic. If they wanted to, at the speed of sound would have a multitude of their agents and proxies attack American interests all over the world, including our large cities.
They haven't do so for various reasons, but first and foremost is that they have no grievances against the american people. In fact, Iranians are the most pro-U.S. country in the middle east.
Don't confuse them with al-Qaeda. They are leading a nation with every intention of securing a place at the table for managing the Middle East and Gulf. Look at what they have been through. Could you blame them for wanting this influence?
There also, it is Robert who is supremely right, but I must admit, you and Aaaron make some points (in the case of Aaaron, it he had less ill-will and more humanism, he'd be alsmot a decent fellow).
What I mean is: Robert wisely and with adequate modesty extols both the modernism (as distinct from the hedonism and conspicuous consumerism culture -- dubbed 'occidentosis' by Ali Shariati of Iran -- that poses, like an impostor, as the hallmark of Western civilization) of America and the liberal democracies of the West and enjoins respect for the cultures of other civilizations. He could have boasted that 'The West' is well on its way to developing alternative energy sources and, in as much as a pronounced portion of the argumentation of both Kayhan and myself rests on the energy-resource advantage of Iran and the energy-resource needs of China, The West stil has significant advantages over both. That argumentation IS correct.
The fallacy is two-pronged: one, it assumes a unidimensionality -- the energy-resource one -- to the rivalry, in terms of geo-strategic influence, of the various power poles that Kayhan and myself discuss above; secondly, it assumes that the 'Game' is zero-sum and static. In my first posting, I used the term 'multi-player, multiple-entry-and-exit' to describe the 'Game'. The distinction could also be made about zero-sum games and positive-sum games, about repeated games, about the endogenisation of 'learning' in the choice of strategy, etc.
From that point of view, EVERYBODY can be a winner. Iran has a lot to gain from peace with the US as well as Israel. In 2003, probably feeling vulnerable in the Iranians’ collective psyche, they made an offer to the US, very attractive to US interests, to resolve differences, but the US miscalculated. Now, that deal is no longer on the table. But the situation is dynamic, the ‘payoff profiles’ themselves change.
That is why I am optimistic. But, confidence building is essential.
I repeat: if we have a critical mass of people as intelligent, honest, and well-meaning as Robert before the end of this decade (unfortunately I don’t know what the size of the critical mass is and whether one may already be in existence but has not so far been militant enough to make a difference) all the promises of the 21st century could be fulfilled without anybody feeling that he has been an eternal loser or sacrificial lamb.
China's oil consumption is growing at 7.5 % a year. The US has averaged 1.5 % a year growth in oil consumption. By 2030 the US and China will be consuming the same amount of oil. There probably won't be enough for both of us, let alone Europe, Japan, and the developing world. At the same time developing nations with oil are consuming more and more of their own oil as high oil prices allow for tremendous local economic growth - which results in a reduction of overall oil export capacity. Ascerbating the problem are national policies that keep oil prices artifically low for local consumers. Venezuelans pay approximately 18 cents for a gallon of gas.
Mexico will soon stop exporting oil and begin importing. So we are headed for a supply problem -unless we can find some other source of energy - preferably renewable - otherwise we will run out of that source as well.
Obviously capitalist democracy with inalienable individual freedom is the way to go. If we allow the oppression of dictators and monarchs who have sworn not to attack us to be replaced by the oppression of mullah/politicos (see: Iran) who are sworn to destroy us, I don't see how that advances freedom and liberty for the people of those countries. Got a proposed solution, or just more cute remarks?
Mohammed,
You can print your name and details because there is no "takfiri" equivalent in our culture. You can say what you want, and we will argue peacefully. I appreciate your viewpoint. It is a beautiful thing. I'm glad you enjoy it. Since I am against (in fact, at war with) Islamism and the genocidal hatred codified in the Koran, I am not so lucky.
Believe me, I do not judge the terrorists. They are human beings, programmed to a worldview by their observation of reality and intellectual inputs just like you and I. I wish you could tell them about our way of life, convince them that secular humanism is the best for all, that their mullahs have enslaved their minds. Since you instead take the easy path and pretend that terrorism is "justified" and that if we just surrender to the Islamist dream we will be rewarded with peace, we will have to wait (and defend ourselves) until a Muslim with real balls figures out how to spread our values of tolerance, equality, and individual rights to the Muslim world.
First of all, No! I reject the adjective intelligent -- I am just honest.
But, yes, Robert is superbly intelligent and wise and honest and generous.
If we have a critical mass of people like him before the first decade of this century is over, then the promise of the twenty-first century for human progress will be well on its way to its concretisation.
Second, Why cannot we leave to those whose lives are at stake (not YOU, not ME, but those Americans who are dying in their thousands in Iraq -- it's no consolation that Iraqis are dying in their hundreds of thousands, buster, except to a crazy ---; those Iranians who lost relatives and friends or lost their own limbs in the tens of thousands during the US/Israel-fuelled Iran/Iraq war -- I saw many of those who had lost their limbs in Mecca in 1986 when I had gonne for Hadj--; those Palestinians whose houses and olive tree plantations are destoyed and their children are drawn to despair, to a state of utter distraction appraoching madness, maybe to 'jihadism'; those Israelis whose plans for giving their children a proper education is frustrated by the Qassam rockets flying overhead) the privilege to decide whther mutual trust or mutual threat is the better course of action for peace. AIPAC and the neocons have their own agenda. Maybe I have my own agenda, considering that, if anybody decides to come and 'get' me (N.B. my honesty compels me to give my full personal details, with physical address for all to see), my resolve may falter and I may embrace a settlement with Israel that is less honourable for Palestinian dignity? Maybe, if they decide to come and GET me, I may decide that it is safer to align myself with the lines of Ardeshir Zahedi about Iranian policy towards the US and of Fouad Adjami about Arab policy towards the US than, say, Trita Parsi’s line for Iran and Ismael Haniyeh’s line for the Palestinians.
Now, Aaaron. Don’t tell me that because I have been totally candid, YOU have YOURSELF decided to come and GET me?
China and Iran get together for some oil deals - what does it really mean? These are simply non-economic, forced marriages by the State-operated monopolies that make the deals. It's like Cuba, North Korea and Russia signing "massive" economic deals back in the 60's and 70's. It's a marriage of convenience, which, when conditions change, will end in the same way. Ivory-tower academics can spin all the "strategic" theories they want (and of course somehow involve a poke at Bush) but the simple fact is - China operates in the Zimbabwe's, Burma's and Iran's of this world, because it gets great, cut-rate deals from chumps who run these pariah states. Mugabe and the Ayatollah's have run their economies into the ground, so they need money and jobs from somewhere.
Another example of Taqiya would be telling the restive muslim population that we espouse Freedom and Liberty for all. All the while supporting the dictators who oppress them for our benefit.
Nobody cares what crazy evangelical says because he is IMPOTENT in our secular system of trust and rule of law. Ahmedinejad the crazy islamist dictator is not impotent, but has complete control, in particular over the secret weapons programs and hundreds of thousands of suicide jihadis called the revolutionary guard, as well as the arch terror groups Hezbollah and Hamas.
You talk a lot of fancy crap about game theory. Any of those models ever factor in Jihad, suicide terror, or any of the other factors codified in the Koran that directly rule out the possibility of goodwill, trust, and cooperation with "the other?" I don't think so.
Everyone knows what a Taqiya is (telling the infidel what they want to hear in english, with completely decietful intentions and saying something completely differnt in Arabic or Farsi)and what "hudna" entails (a short truce when defeat is near, with the intent to reqroup and carry on the Jihad of annihilation when strength and advantage recovered.)
Believe me I want to help the Palestinians. But only an idiot believes that retreat in the face of terror, leaving a society born, bred and raised to hate and kill for an eternity of carnal indulgence, will do anything but encourage more terror. Clearly accept Israel as the (only) Jewish state, and they will have to leave the West Bank, and everyone will prosper. Make Israel's destruction your goal, and you empower only the elements who argue (now quite convincingly) that peace with all Muslims and Arabs (that doesn't require national suicide) is nothing but a pipe-dream for hippies like me.
Aaron.
As you can see, I have other things to do than posting comments n WAPO On Faith Forum.
Yes, everyone who is not totally insane is 'supposed to believe that they don't really mean "Death to America,"' just the way I believe that whatever-his-name crazy Evangelical does not really mean it when he says that Hugo Chavez should be assassinated. However, when crazies nec plus ultra say that they will bomb whole countries back to the stone age, you better start organizing your jihadists and suicide bombers, because that's the only effective weapon you will have to defend your self. That's a lesson I (yes I Mohamed Malleck) have learnt but AhMADJihad has yet to learn, poor guy being naive enough to think that he can make crazies nec plus ultra listen to reason by coming to Columbia University to lecture them on Islamic values.
As for 'practicing standard Taqiya with regards to their nuke program', that depends upon whether you are looking at the dynamics of decision-making from the inside or from the outside and whether you have some empathy with the decision-maker or you are antagonistic to him.
Ok, what am I talking about? Well, ‘Taqiya’ – what do YOU understand by the word, Aaron? Deceit, indecision, calculated mixed signals, Game-Theory-type moves that build into the strategic choice the response of the rival to confidence-building measures, to threats, to ‘optimal penal code’ moves designed to build credibility in your prowess as well as in your honorable intentions to collaborate provided your dignity is respected? What I understand by “Taqiya” --- and the sense of the term that practitioners of the art have understood and refined as Islam came into contact, sometimes conflicting sometimes collaborating, with its neighbouring civilizations (including the Mongols who conquered and sacked Baghdad and Damascus but then converted to Islam and went on to spread the Religion to China!) --- is the latter one which modern scientists have called Game Theory.
In that sense, of course, Taqiya is context-sensitive. Hamas proposed a ‘Hudna’; for a full year no suicide bombing inside Israel, whatever the treacherous actions of IDF in attacking helpless Palestinian villages in the Gaza strip and of the Israeli Government in expanding the illegal settlement programmes (which Seth denounces with very bitter reprobation against his fellow-Israelis in today’s issue of The Guardian of UK). But, of course, the ‘information set’ of Israeli madness is built into Hamas’ decision about a choice of strategy. Then, what? You have the latest suicide boming, the first in a full year of calm, accompanied by a warning of more to come? What will be the response of the opposing party, Israel?
The ball, as they say, is currently in the Israeli court.
That’s what is meant by “Taqiya’ is context-sensitive.
The same logic applies not only to Iranian choice of strategy vis-à-vis the US on the one hand and China on the other, but also, in a ‘multiplayer, multiple entry and exit Game Theoretic scenario’, about the choice of strategy vis-a-vis the Iran-India-Pakistan Pipeline, vis-à-vis Russia, vis-à-vis the Gulf Cooperation Council States, vis-a-vis Central Asian States.
Ahmadinejad tried to explain all this in his own language at Columbia, as did Khatami at Davos only about ten days ago. But, of course, there are those who only think AhMADjihad and those for whom Davos is only about the glitterati female stars, maybe Sarkozy’s new wife, or maybe the millions of dollars that Nursultan Nazarbayev pledge’s to the William Clinton Foundation.
Yes, Aaaron. Unfortunately, not only were we not all endowed with the same ‘default mindset’ of good will and trust towards our fellow humans, but also, we were not all endowed with the same intelligence. Alas!
And correction for Thermopylae: Persia has not been the west's antagonist for 3,500 years. You may have meant to say 2,500 years.
Or maybe you were taught 3,500 years in that little backwater school you were taught near Thermopylae.
Cyrus the Great, a term coined by the Jews, liberated the Jews from captivity and respected all faiths and cultures. His proclamation is recognized as the FIRST authored Bill of Rights for all Humans. Replicas of the cylinder of Cyrus are displayed in the United Nations.
Thomas Jefferson and the founders of our great nation kept a copy of Cyropedia, written by a greek (Xenophon) as inspiration on how to righteously rule a new nation.
Lastly, Xerxes was the very same ruler that saved Esther and her people from certain slaughter.
Persians were monotheists, while the greeks where idol worshippers.
Persians abolished slavery, while greek nobles enslaved men, women, and especially young boys.
Correction for Mr. Hippolytus: Tiny Greek nations did not annihalate Persia. In fact, Persia had burned Athens under Xerxes, before Alexander burned Persepolis.
The only difference is that Persia rose again, under the Parthians, Sassanids, and after the islamic conquest, under the Safavids.
Whereas, Greece returned to being a backwater a mere 2 centuries after Alexander's death, only to be dominated by the Romans.
Learn your history my son. Greece was great because of democracy, but it really didn't have much durability or perseverance compared to the persians, who always rise to the occassion.
As you can see, I have other things to do than posting comments n WAPO On Faith Forum.
Yes, everyone who is not totally insane is 'supposed to believe that they don't really mean "Death to America,"' just the way I believe that whatever-his-name crazy Evangelical does not really mean it when he says that Hugo Chavez should be assassinated. However, when crazies nec plus ultra say that they will bomb whole countries back to the stone age, you better start organizing your jihadists and suicide bombers, because that's the only effective weapon you will have to defend your self. That's a lesson I (yes I Mohamed Malleck) have learnt but AhMADJihad has yet to learn, poor guy being naive enough to think that he can make crazies nec plus ultra listen to reason by coming to Columbia University to lecture them on Islamic values.
As for 'practicing standard Taqiya with regards to their nuke program', that depends upon
Duhhhhh....
China and Iran are both developing countries. China is only on stage 2 of development (and Iran is a little further behind) which are:
1. export of commodities and raw materials as means of survival
2. transformation of commodities and manufacturing and exporting the commodities with value-added
3. development and export of services to add further value to products (such as tourism or design or consulting)
4. development and export of technology and innovation.
To measure Chinese advancement, just ask why have they not build a locally-designed aircraft even though they are potentially the only market in the world where it makes sense to have this indigenous manufacturing (which is complex but only pays off when there is mass production)? To compare, Russia has its own, still and even though they went thru a nasty period of bad finances and management.
My point is that there is a limit on cooperation of two developing countries with each other. China does not even make very old-and-dumb tech things like oil drilling bit ....essentially a piece of steel that cuts a hole in the ground thru rocks, or heavy diesel engines for ships or trucks!
Relying on China is like building a house on sand in the dry season. We don't know what will happen when the rain comes.
China is using anyone it can to further its economy and create job for the millions of people that are still unemployed.
I'm not sure that China will continue to exist in the same structure that it's today. It might divided into many city states.
If China survives and continue to built strength, then, once China is strong enouh, it will dominate it's neighbor, Iran included, and Iranian might prefer western hegemony over the Chinese one.
The tiny greek nations of the ancient world annihilated the persian empire. China has been a stagnant backwater for thousands of years, like the egyptians they delight in stablility through tyranny, not chaos and freedom. Go to China today and you will see everything they glory in, is a product of the western man and the western mind. Like the japanese and the ancient persians, modern China will miscalculate the power of free nations to wage war against slave states. China risks being cut to pieces and Iran dissembowled. The Russians at least appreciate the full power of the West the father of all and every idea that the world possesses today. China will have second thoughts once the full weight of America turns against it. China and Iran and all muslims lust for war with america. Some day we will oblige you people with 10,000 Hiroshimas. Then you my dear muslim friend will learn; decent and free peoples can only be antagonized for so long. As Ronald Reagan loved to say: "History is littered with the wreckage of regimes that have underestimated us." Ask the Shintoists, Nazis and Soviet Communists how far we can be pushed. Slave nations will never triumph over free peoples. Be careful what you wish for, our violence will be terrible. God will judge
"some pundits argue that one of the top strategic goals for the United States in starting the Iraq war was to dominate the Middle East region’s energy resources and control China, its potential 21st-century global rival. ... But imposing pressure, sanctions, or isolation on Iran will only push the country further toward China."
the author would be correct that gulf hegemony, not gulf democracy, is the sine qua non of the iraq invasion. the author however is incorrect in asserting that american pressure pushes iran towards china. iran propels itself to find an ally in china as it seeks to wrest what america has long had, and which the annhilation of the former iraq has greatly furthered: gulf hegemony.
persia has been a consistent antagonist of the west for 3,500 years. underestimating the iranian will to dislodge america from its gulf perch should not be underestimated.
with the advent of atomic ayatollahs, gulf--and by extension--global american hegemony would come to an end. the extirpation of the ayatollah's thermonuclear fantasies remains the fundamental current challenge to american policy.
it is the mission of propaganidists such as this auhor to instill the notion that the problem can be solved in any way other than the application of massive american military power.
I see this article manages to talk about US war mongering in the Middle East and avoids all mention of a certain country that also starts with an 'I' and is a religious dictatorship like Iran only the people doing this start their name with a 'J' rather than 'S'.
After seen Mr. Gandhi kicked to the curb for daring to mention Israel, Jews and a request that they stop abusing the Palestinians meant that this other writer who is non-Jewish is walking on eggs and will try to avoid all mention of the stubborn issues that makes hash of ANY American 'diplomacy' there.
The Chinese don't have this burden and will eventually win over all the Muslims. While the people trying to destroy the Palestinians will get a few more huts and olive groves. And the US earns the hatred of the whole planet. Way to go, I say, sardonically.
It is interesting that this piece does not use the "terrorist" word, nor "muslims". While Bush-Cheney have neatly divided the Middle East into "friendly nations" and "extremists", China and Russia have applied diplomatic counter measures, to hold off Bush-Cheney interventions.
"if kept within legitimate bounds" is a pretty big if when talking about the suicide Jihadis who run Iran. Are we expected to just take a chance that they don't really mean "Death to America," and are not practicing standard Taqiya with regards to their nuke program? If Iran were a secular capitalist democracy, everything you say would be true. But instead it is the quintissential terror state. We don't need Islamists nukes to have a multi-polar world.
I think the author make a strong argument. The world in two-three decade ahead would be a world of new rising global and regional powers like China and Iran, this is a reality that the West sooner or later should accept and adjust itself with it.
Iran's geostrategic calculations are even more refined than what is presented in Kayhan's analysis. The Iran-Pakistan-India Pipeline, with possible extension to China is only one card in a set of aces and kings and queens that the Iranain nation holds to advance its distinctive development agenda combining what is best in both Eastern and Western civilisational processes.
Iran is ready for a partnership of equals with the West, but the US (and to a lesser extent Europe under Brown, Sarkozy, Merkel and the likely return of Berlusconi after Romano Prodi) high-handedness and outright bullying has so far prevented that. From that perspective, yes, China has emerged as a highly-esteemed economic, political and cultural partner for Iran.
Nonetheless, there are clouds on the horizon. Like Pakistan, Iran is at a crossroad of civilizations --- Persian, Arab, Turkish/Central Asian influences are pronounced. The Central Asian states that have pronounced vestiges of their former Russian-satellite economico-political dynamics are going to be the object of a tough competition for geostrategic influence on the part of Russia, China, and the US. In parallel, of course, India will keep a very watchful eye with a keen geostrategic and resource-control interest of its own, while Iran, Pakistan and the Arab countries will naturally feel they have a more compelling stake in the region both by virtue of historical ties and proximity.
From this perspective, the emerging multipolar world in which a newly-assertive Iran will operate will have large territorial swathes with a variable geometry to an emergent Greater Middle-East power pole. That new power-pole will take time to emerge and will, in the interim, find Iran allied, at certain times, in an axis with China, at other times in an even wider axis comprising Iran/Pakistan/India/China, and at still other times in an Islamic axis with the Arab world plus Turkey and Pakistan.
Such a multi-polar world with variable-geometry poles will be flexible and may cause some unsettling stresses without fundamental instability. That configuration will greatly benefit global economico-political and military-industrial convergence.
In sum, what I am adding to Kayhan's argumentation is that, far from being an agent of instability and tension in world politics, Iran's new assertiveness, if kept to within legitimate bounds, as indeed, has been the case so far, will have a lot to contribute to global convergence.
The reason why the U.S is the greatest country is because it is the country that fit to the description of Apostle Paul which says that the children of faith and NOT the children of works (this includes the four major religions [ Islam, Budhism, Hinduism, Judaism ] and some major false christian religions like catholicism) will inherit and rule the earth. A big portion of the people in the U.S and even the first settlers in Portsmouth, Massachusetts believe that scripture. They inherit the prophecy by believing it. This country will ultimately rule the earth coz that is the prophecy.
The U.S. did not start WW2 but that was the beginning of the fulfillment of that prophecy and WW3 would establish it fully even though the U.S. won't start it.
That is the prophecy and those who would challenge it (there would be many) may temporarily win but in the final showdown, the prophecy would still prevail.
A lot of people will be "vaporized".
America has been protected by God from two World Wars but not this time because of the increasing liberalism and secularism among its people.
Salvation is personal and being a member of a religion would not save a person. But Eph. 2:8-10 and Jn 3:16 sums it all and those who live these verses in their hearts are the holders of true religion.
The history of this world is pretty much laid out already. Parts of America is liberal and secular and that will be destroyed by its enemies. But the bigger story is, America's enemies will be wiped off the surface of the earth.
America is not invincible and it could be defeated. But the irony of it is that it's a lot more stronger the second time around. Remember the saying "I shall return"? In WW2, it did returned and pulverized it's enemy like powder.
The same will happen in WW3. The point is, it's not a good thing that America gets defeated coz the next episode will be the annihilation of its enemies. Believe it.
not surprisingly, the chinese have also begun to successfully circumvent the u.s. around the glode. their foreign and economic policies have been quite simple really. get what we need for what others need and refrain from diving into the dark waters localized or even regional politics as much as possible. whereas china keeps it as uncomplicated as applicable, the u.s. sees itself as an imperialistic power on an unstoppable rise towards world domination. and mr. barzeger is right on the mark when he says that this represents a failure of american foreign policy. the miscalculations of america's neo-conservative community will be difficult to overcome for decades to come.
You should read a new book that I just finished -
The Next Great Clash: China and Russia vs. the United States. There is a great deal of information in this book about China's recent activities in Iran.
Contrary to this write up China will never jeopardize its vital and very lucrative commercial ties with the US over oil and gas from Islamic Republic. This author is pushing the official line that if full unfettered normal relations between Islamic Republic and US is not established other viable alternatives are to be had. Well not really, in China’s case it is actively exploring for resources in other countries like Sudan and has drastically cut back its banking relations with the Islamic Republic. Islamic
I think this was a well written article.
Regardless whether it's a power-balancing act or not- it is a good thing that two countries gain trust and benefit each other.
Unlike US' aggressive foreign policies with complete self-interest and a profit-driven concept, these two countries (Iran & China) with great culture and tradition could bond closely.
PostGlobal is an interactive conversation on global issues moderated by Newsweek International Editor Fareed Zakaria and David Ignatius of The Washington Post. It is produced jointly by Newsweek and washingtonpost.com, as is On Faith, a conversation on religion. Please send your comments, questions and suggestions for PostGlobal to Lauren Keane, its editor and producer.
All Comments (46)
Wow! What to do? What to do? So much hostility and confusion. How can anyone profit from such scenarios? 10000 nukes dropped anywhere in the world and within three years everyone will be dead from radiation poisioning. Even the roaches might not survive. I better go wash my dishes...
May 30, 2008 11:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 30, 2008 23:52
israel is origin of conflicts and wars
israel must be destroyed
March 27, 2008 5:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2008 05:37
israel is origin of conflicts and wars
israel must be destroyed
March 27, 2008 5:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2008 05:37
Robert:
I respect your views. We should all dare to accept realities.
February 9, 2008 5:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 9, 2008 17:04
Dan and Faramarz, trying to talk sense to Thermopylae is a waste of time.
But both of your points are good ones. But one comment by Faramarz really bothered me, athough I have to admit that it is probably correct. We really haven't won a war since WWII. I would be ashamed to even consider Panama or Grenada.
Invading a defenseless little island and rescuing a couple of third-rate medical students is not something to be proud of.
Afghanistan was the one war since WWII that united all americans. It was a just war and it looked pretty good for a while. But it isn't looking like a definitive one for the win column for us.
These buffoons took their eye off the ball and started a second and unjust war that has divided our nation. And even worse, has contributed to more than doubling the nation's debt form $4 Trillion to over $9Trillion. All of this for a nation with a $13 Trillion economy amid a financial, housing, manufacturing, and service downturn and facing a another $450Billion to $700Billion deficit for 2009.
And God help us, McCain wants to start a new war against Iran. Where are the true patriots in this country to rise and set our great country back on its proper course?
These buffoons and incompetents are playing right into the al-Qaeda playbook. They are bleeding us into bankruptcy.
February 9, 2008 2:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 9, 2008 14:36
Thermopylae:
You did not understand well the authors' real message. He is trying to send a srong message including:
1. Iran is a rising nation and it does not care as the past relying too much on the West. As far as it has wealth and talent it is free to go everywhere and balance its international relations;
2. The West is no longer the only exporter of technology and military hardware;
3. The world has changed and it is not like the past that America could go everywhere makeing mess and getting out easily; It is because of the fact that some middle range powers like Iran accessd deterence power. If the Bush Administartion could challenge Iran, no doubte it would;
4. Lastly: Sanctioning , threathing, and isolating Iran means losing to China and Russia in the Middle East.
Iran has been present in the region for thousand years and will be.
February 9, 2008 1:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 9, 2008 13:20
Thermopylae:
Quoting "it is the mission of propaganidists such as this auhor to instill the notion that the problem can be solved in any way other than the application of massive american military power. End of quote.
Anyone, no offense intended, with the least amount of intelligence and common sense would know regardless of a country's military power if it is not backed with a just cause it is void of its capabilities.
With the exception of couple of South American cake walks, the US has actually not won any major wars in the last Seventy years. And, the current administration, thanks to few sound heads, outside this adminitration, still left in Washington, has wisely decided to go out without being recorded in the history books as the only administration who has lost Three wars at the same time.
February 9, 2008 1:29 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 9, 2008 01:29
TO THE ENTIRE WORLD:
CHINA IS THE LAND OF VAMPIRES WHICH IS ALSO AN UNIQUE NATION ON THIS PLANET THAT HAS ENJOYED TO EXECUTE ITS CHINESE CITIZENS TO HARVEST HUMAN BODY-PARTS, FLESH TO MAKE MONEY! AND THE ENTIRE WORLD HAS SEEN IN THE DAY LIGHT! THEN FOR SURE ANY WORST MEANS TO MAKE MONEY THIS CHINA NATION WHICH HAS BEEN CONTROLLED BY THE COMMUNIST CHINESE VAMPIRES OR ECONOMICAL THUGS, THESE WORST ANIMAL-LIKE THUGS WILL OBVIOUSLY DO ALL WORST THINGS TO MAKE MONEY AS USUAL!
WHO ON EARTH CAN DO BUSINESS WITH THE CHINESE VAMPIRES? THESE VAMPIRES CAN EXTRACT THEIR OWN PEOPLE BLOOD, FLESH, HUMAN-ORGANS FOR MAKING MONEY THEN WHAT ELSE THEY WON'T DO TO ANY OF YOU??????? AND YOUR NATIONS AND YOUR PEOPLE WHEN PLAYING WITH THE BARBAROUS CHINA OR VAMPIRES???
IF YOU FEEL HORRIBLE TO OBSERVE CROCODILES AND SHARKS KILL OTHERS ANIMALS IN WATER! HOWEVER, THESE CROCS AND SHARKS FOLKS NEVER KILL AND EXPLOIT THEIR OWN SPECIES! WHILE ON THIS PLANET CHINA DOES! THIS IS THE NATURE OF THE VAMPIRES AND ONLY CHINA HAS THESE KINDS OF UNBELIEVABLE HUMAN CRIMES! YOU WILL DISCOVER YOURSELVES THAT CROCCODILES AND SHARKS ARE MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN CHINESE VAMPIRES!
IN ESSENCE, NEVER EVER DANCE WITH THE VAMPIRES! OR NEVER DANCE WITH COMMUNIST CHINA!!!!! AND CHINESE VAMPIRES!!!!
February 8, 2008 7:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 8, 2008 19:56
conscience-to-the-world :
HELLO ALL WORLD NATIONS:
REF: http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=6351927&ch=4226713&src=news
(CHINESE SPIES IN THE U.S)
THE WORLD MUST BE VERY CAREFUL TO LET CHINESE ENTER THEIR NATIONS! DUE TO CHINESE SPIES ARE MANY AS FLIES NOW!
CHINESE STEAL EVERYTHING FROM ANY NATION IN SEVERAL ASPECTS FROM LANDS, TECHNOLOGIES, NATURAL RESOURCES!
CHINESE GAINS THAT MEAN THE WORLD LOSES!
STAY AWAY FROM CHINESE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE UNLESS SOMEONE WANTS TO DANCE WITH THIS WORLD NASTIEST LIAR, THIEF, SPY, BOOTHLEGGER, CHEATER, MURDERER, AND DIRTY-TRICKER!
CHINA IS THE LAND OF THIEVES, BOOTHLEGGERS, FAKED PRODUCTS MAKERS, POISONED MECHANDISES EXPORTER!
CHINA IS THE LAND OF THE SHAMELESS AND DIRTIEST CULTURE! LAND OF THIEVES LAND OF FAKERS, LAND OF CHEATERS, LAND OF LIARS! LAND OF HUMAN-ORGANS COLLECTORS AND EXPORTERS FROM SEVERAL THOUSANDS EXECUTED CHINESE!
WHO ON EARTH STILL WANT TO DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MURDERER AND CHEATER CHINA?
DON'T SELL ANY KINDS OF NATURAL RESOURCES TO CHINA! LET CHINA HARVEST THEIR OWN HUMAN-ORGANS FROM THEIR OWN CHINESE TO WAKE UP ALL SLEEPING CHINESE TO TAKE CONTROL THEIR NATION CHINA FROM THE EXTREMELY BLOODY COMMUNIST CHINESE THUGS OR LEADERS!
February 8, 2008 12:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 8, 2008 12:39
conscience-to-the-world :
TO THE ENTIRE WORLD:
CHINA IS THE LAND WHICH CAN ENJOY TO EXECUTE ITS CITIZENS TO HARVEST HUMAN BODY-PARTS TO MAKE MONEY! THEN ANY WORST MEANS TO MAKE MONEY THIS NATION CONTROLLED BY THE COMMUNIST VAMPIRES OR THUGS THESE BAD ANIMAL-LIKE THUG WILL DO ALL!
WHO ON EARTH CAN DO BUSINESS WITH THE CHINESE VAMPIRES? THESE VAMPIRES CAN EXTRACT THEIR OWN PEOPLE BLOOD FOR MONEY THEN WHAT ELSE THEY WON'T DO TO ANY OF YOU???????
NEVER DANCE WITH THE VAMPIRES! OR NEVER DANCE WITH COMMUNIST CHINA!!!!!
February 8, 2008 12:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 8, 2008 12:33
Aaron,
Believe me when I say that there were and are alot of Muslims with "real balls" who want to spread OUR VALUES OF tolerance, equality, and individual rights to the Muslim world.
The problem is that everytime they stand to speak, their leaders imprison, torture and kill them.
The sad thing about this is that this torture and execution is not occurring in just Iran. A large number of these human right violations occur in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc.
And think about it, who is Mubarak, Abdullah of Saudi, and Abdullah of Jordan without US Support?
In the face of this oppression, the Islamic Brotherhood, al-Qaeda, and Hamas rise. Sure they are terrorist groups, but we can't absolve our sins and responsibility for their creations. We have a hand in radicalizing a segment of that population.
Do you know that in Saudi Arabia, they still carry out public executions for "witchcraft"?
Do you know that in Jordan, the majority of its population are considered second-class citizens and not allowed to hold relevant government, military and business positions?
Do you know that in Egypt, the "President" has been in power for over 2 decades and is now grooming his son to become the next "President"?
Do you know that in Bahrain, a minority Sunni Bedouin tribe hold on to power and restrict rights to majority of populace due to their pact with the British (originally) and now US?
Do you know that in UAE, the majority of the population are Iranian and are perhaps the largest financial block in Dubai, yet the rulers are a group of minority Bedouins who owe their very survival to the British and US?
Where is the justice and democracy in this? And then we ask why these people don't like the US policies and why a segment has taken up arms against us.
February 8, 2008 11:00 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 8, 2008 11:00
"I wish you could tell them about OUR WAY OF LIFE, convince them that SECULAR HUMANISM is the best for all......... until a Muslim with real balls figures out how to spread OUR VALUES OF tolerance, equality, and individual rights to the Muslim world."(Aaron)
Now don't you go showing off balls that you don't have either. What values of tolerance, equality and individual rights are yours?violent agression, inequality the negation of individual rights:
in Palestine, all over Lebanon in 2006,Shock and awe, bombs, assasinations, waterboardings, carpet bombings and sonic booms, collective punishment etc..etc..How dare you lay claim to these principles :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism
I was happy to hear it said by Lara Marlowe on TV5 lately, that whenever a rocket is launched from Palestine it's immediately covered in the news but the almost daily bombings that Israel inflicts on the occupied territories are not even mentioned in
the news.That silence of a non objective media doesn't rhyme with the 'search for truth' which is a tenet of secular humanism.
Something is very wrong not just with radical Islam but with its enemies who are actively persuing their agendas and hide behind false values in a we against them preparation for war.
February 8, 2008 8:13 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 8, 2008 08:13
Aaron, Robert, Jack,
Following up on my thread above, ended with my posting timed at 3:33 p.m. on February 7.
Hereunder are pieces of evidence of how Israel and the US reacts.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7232108.stm
http://www.alternet.org/audits/76241/
What's more, if you try to access the Ellsberg story from Truthout.org website, you will find out that AOL/Microsoft-Hotmail are trying to prevent delivery of the Truthout story. I hope that you can access it in Alternet.
Who are the aggressors, Robert? Who are the barbarians, Aaaron?
February 8, 2008 3:38 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 8, 2008 03:38
A CHINA NÃO É AMEAÇA, MAS UM NECESSÁRIO EQUILIBRIO MUNDIAL.
A China não é o monstro que querem rotular para a opinião pública mundial.
Nos últimos cinco anos, o país, através de suas exportações, foi o principal responsável pela contenção de abusos inflacionários em países ricos e pobres. Havia uma cultura empresarial de produzir pouco e ganhar muito, com o excesso de protecionismo a maus e incompetentes empresários, pelo próprio Estado. E as concorrências ficaram mais acirradas, exigindo, do setor produtivo, modernização tecnológica, capacidade gerencial e preços. E o povo já começou a usufruir desses benefícios que chegaram direta ou indiretamente.
Por outro lado, não se denunciam os absurdos cometidos pelo atual modelo capitalista, concentrador de riquezas, volátil, fabricador das crises de 1929, 1987, 2007 e de muitas outras, que descapitalizaram e desorganizaram a economia de paises pobres e em desenvolvimento. A subprime das Letras Hipotecárias é um forte exemplo disso. O mercado financeiro ganhou bilhões de dólares com essas crises pré-fabricadas e maquiado nos balanços contábeis. E os Bancos Centrais ficaram coniventes com elas.
Voltando ao assunto China, o país já está dando demonstrações claras e reais de que será um grande aliado dos brasileiros e vejamos por que:
- De 2004 a 2007 importou do Brasil mais de USD 31, 3 bilhões de e exportou USD 29, 6, acusando um saldo a nosso favor, na balança comercial, de mais de USD 1,7 bilhões;
- Já é o terceiro maior importador de produtos brasileiros, atrás somente dos Estados Unidos e da Argentina. Em curto prazo, passará a ser o primeiro.
- Acho até salutar que os Chineses interfiram no controle dos preços do aço, que tiveram aumentos despropositados, nos últimos anos, adquirindo um terço do controle acionário da Xstrata. O monopólio nessa área é prejudicial ao Brasil e aos demais países em desenvolvimento. De 2004 a 2007, o minério de ferro, teve um aumento acumulado de mais de 170% (um absurdo) A Vale ou qualquer outra empresa, nacional ou não, não pode continuar impondo preços descabidos para os seus produtos e que chegam a influenciar decisivamente a geração de inflação, além de prejudicar o desenvolvimento de qualquer Nação.
-Cobrar da China, de cultura e costumes milenares, com um quarto (1/4) da população mundial, a liberdade total de informação e imediata, é criar instrumentos poderosos para a desorganização do Estado Continente. Essa mudança tem que vir paulatinamente, para realmente gerar benefícios econômicos, políticos e sociais.
- Não precisamos brigar com a China ou depreciá-la, mas sim, aproveitar as imensas possibilidades que o país nos oferece para se tornar o maior importador de produtos brasileiros. Em resumo, a China é pior em que, em comparação com o regime capitalista que concentrou quase 50% de todas as riquezas em mãos de apenas 2% da população mundial? E olhe ainda que os Chineses, com as suas reservas internacionais, estão financiando mais de 8% do deficit do Tesouro americano. Estão realmente fazendo o bem, ao dispertar o capitalismo para uma realidade que invista mais no capital humano
February 8, 2008 3:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 8, 2008 03:15
I have been researching on the China activities in Africa. It is amazing to know that how it started first and reached to the today's level. It first started with exporting daily consumption commodities and now reached to a huge amount and major economic agreements with African governments. One of the reasons that led African states toward China is their frustration from the obtaining the Western financial supports and investmwnts. In this context, the author is right. China impact on global economy and its consequences are important for the world.
February 7, 2008 8:58 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 20:58
Sorry Robert but "Death to America" is pretty clear. Al-Qaeda is not Iran, but they both embody violent Islamism (for Iran, obviously the leadership, not the people). And "Iran" (that is the militant Islamists who run the place) cannot attack us anywhere. Because it would be suicide... at least until they get nukes. This has nothing to do with the people of Iran, or Iran's rightful place as a Gulf player and (potential) economic power house. In this game of non-lethal capitalist competition between capitalist democracies, we can all win. The problem is Iran also plays the Islamic terror game. AS you mentioned, holding the threat of terror attack on civilians, all over the world, soon to be nuclear armed. If you want to be unfair in the game like that, rest assured, we will be unfair with our ridiculously superior conventional military. You may be prepared to risk that the "pragmatic" mullahs will beat the "mad" ones. The problem is, by the time we know, it will be too late.
Mohammed, obviously if the Muslim world were as enlightened and educated as you, we would have no problems. I totally disagree with American foriegn policy vis-avis Iran, in particular toppling democratically elected leaders because they "lean left." Ridiculous, but in the context of the cold war, I see where they were coming from. I however was not alive then, nor for the Shah's brutal reign. I completely understand the hatred of America, the desire for vengence. For these reasons, I take it very seriously, and I'm not going to let it destroy me or pretend it isn't a powerful force, just because I know where it is coming from. For these reasons, militant Islam will not be allowed to sit at the nuclear table.
February 7, 2008 7:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 19:04
Spiderman2 says..'The reason why the U.S is the greatest country is because it is the country that fit to the description of Apostle Paul which says that the children of faith and NOT the children of works (this includes the four major religions [ Islam, Budhism, Hinduism, Judaism'
perhaps spiderman2 might consider taking a deep breath and stop trying to rule the world; you sound like a fundamentalist not much different than a terrorist!
Patrick
February 7, 2008 6:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 18:56
Robert,
Obviously capitalist democracy with inalienable individual freedom is the way to go. If we allow the oppression of dictators and monarchs who have sworn not to attack us to be replaced by the oppression of mullah/politicos (see: Iran) who are sworn to destroy us, I don't see how that advances freedom and liberty for the people of those countries. Got a proposed solution, or just more cute remarks?
Mohammed,
You can print your name and details because there is no "takfiri" equivalent in our culture. You can say what you want, and we will argue peacefully. I appreciate your viewpoint. It is a beautiful thing. I'm glad you enjoy it. Since I am against (in fact, at war with) Islamism and the genocidal hatred codified in the Koran, I am not so lucky.
Believe me, I do not judge the terrorists. They are human beings, programmed to a worldview by their observation of reality and intellectual inputs just like you and I. I wish you could tell them about our way of life, convince them that secular humanism is the best for all, that their mullahs have enslaved their minds. Since you instead take the easy path and pretend that terrorism is "justified" and that if we just surrender to the Islamist dream we will be rewarded with peace, we will have to wait (and defend ourselves) until a Muslim with real balls figures out how to spread our values of tolerance, equality, and individual rights to the Muslim world.
February 7, 2008 4:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 16:28
Aaron,
Iran is not a sworn enemy of the US. Those who cross the atlantic to hurt our civilians are our sworn enemies.
These mullahs, mad as some of them may be, are by and large pragmatic. If they wanted to, at the speed of sound would have a multitude of their agents and proxies attack American interests all over the world, including our large cities.
They haven't do so for various reasons, but first and foremost is that they have no grievances against the american people. In fact, Iranians are the most pro-U.S. country in the middle east.
Don't confuse them with al-Qaeda. They are leading a nation with every intention of securing a place at the table for managing the Middle East and Gulf. Look at what they have been through. Could you blame them for wanting this influence?
February 7, 2008 4:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 16:19
Yep. Jack.
There also, it is Robert who is supremely right, but I must admit, you and Aaaron make some points (in the case of Aaaron, it he had less ill-will and more humanism, he'd be alsmot a decent fellow).
What I mean is: Robert wisely and with adequate modesty extols both the modernism (as distinct from the hedonism and conspicuous consumerism culture -- dubbed 'occidentosis' by Ali Shariati of Iran -- that poses, like an impostor, as the hallmark of Western civilization) of America and the liberal democracies of the West and enjoins respect for the cultures of other civilizations. He could have boasted that 'The West' is well on its way to developing alternative energy sources and, in as much as a pronounced portion of the argumentation of both Kayhan and myself rests on the energy-resource advantage of Iran and the energy-resource needs of China, The West stil has significant advantages over both. That argumentation IS correct.
The fallacy is two-pronged: one, it assumes a unidimensionality -- the energy-resource one -- to the rivalry, in terms of geo-strategic influence, of the various power poles that Kayhan and myself discuss above; secondly, it assumes that the 'Game' is zero-sum and static. In my first posting, I used the term 'multi-player, multiple-entry-and-exit' to describe the 'Game'. The distinction could also be made about zero-sum games and positive-sum games, about repeated games, about the endogenisation of 'learning' in the choice of strategy, etc.
From that point of view, EVERYBODY can be a winner. Iran has a lot to gain from peace with the US as well as Israel. In 2003, probably feeling vulnerable in the Iranians’ collective psyche, they made an offer to the US, very attractive to US interests, to resolve differences, but the US miscalculated. Now, that deal is no longer on the table. But the situation is dynamic, the ‘payoff profiles’ themselves change.
That is why I am optimistic. But, confidence building is essential.
I repeat: if we have a critical mass of people as intelligent, honest, and well-meaning as Robert before the end of this decade (unfortunately I don’t know what the size of the critical mass is and whether one may already be in existence but has not so far been militant enough to make a difference) all the promises of the 21st century could be fulfilled without anybody feeling that he has been an eternal loser or sacrificial lamb.
February 7, 2008 3:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 15:33
China's oil consumption is growing at 7.5 % a year. The US has averaged 1.5 % a year growth in oil consumption. By 2030 the US and China will be consuming the same amount of oil. There probably won't be enough for both of us, let alone Europe, Japan, and the developing world. At the same time developing nations with oil are consuming more and more of their own oil as high oil prices allow for tremendous local economic growth - which results in a reduction of overall oil export capacity. Ascerbating the problem are national policies that keep oil prices artifically low for local consumers. Venezuelans pay approximately 18 cents for a gallon of gas.
Mexico will soon stop exporting oil and begin importing. So we are headed for a supply problem -unless we can find some other source of energy - preferably renewable - otherwise we will run out of that source as well.
February 7, 2008 2:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 14:28
Robert,
Obviously capitalist democracy with inalienable individual freedom is the way to go. If we allow the oppression of dictators and monarchs who have sworn not to attack us to be replaced by the oppression of mullah/politicos (see: Iran) who are sworn to destroy us, I don't see how that advances freedom and liberty for the people of those countries. Got a proposed solution, or just more cute remarks?
Mohammed,
You can print your name and details because there is no "takfiri" equivalent in our culture. You can say what you want, and we will argue peacefully. I appreciate your viewpoint. It is a beautiful thing. I'm glad you enjoy it. Since I am against (in fact, at war with) Islamism and the genocidal hatred codified in the Koran, I am not so lucky.
Believe me, I do not judge the terrorists. They are human beings, programmed to a worldview by their observation of reality and intellectual inputs just like you and I. I wish you could tell them about our way of life, convince them that secular humanism is the best for all, that their mullahs have enslaved their minds. Since you instead take the easy path and pretend that terrorism is "justified" and that if we just surrender to the Islamist dream we will be rewarded with peace, we will have to wait (and defend ourselves) until a Muslim with real balls figures out how to spread our values of tolerance, equality, and individual rights to the Muslim world.
February 7, 2008 2:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 14:12
ROBERT,
Thanks for your most enlightened comments.
AARON,
First of all, No! I reject the adjective intelligent -- I am just honest.
But, yes, Robert is superbly intelligent and wise and honest and generous.
If we have a critical mass of people like him before the first decade of this century is over, then the promise of the twenty-first century for human progress will be well on its way to its concretisation.
Second, Why cannot we leave to those whose lives are at stake (not YOU, not ME, but those Americans who are dying in their thousands in Iraq -- it's no consolation that Iraqis are dying in their hundreds of thousands, buster, except to a crazy ---; those Iranians who lost relatives and friends or lost their own limbs in the tens of thousands during the US/Israel-fuelled Iran/Iraq war -- I saw many of those who had lost their limbs in Mecca in 1986 when I had gonne for Hadj--; those Palestinians whose houses and olive tree plantations are destoyed and their children are drawn to despair, to a state of utter distraction appraoching madness, maybe to 'jihadism'; those Israelis whose plans for giving their children a proper education is frustrated by the Qassam rockets flying overhead) the privilege to decide whther mutual trust or mutual threat is the better course of action for peace. AIPAC and the neocons have their own agenda. Maybe I have my own agenda, considering that, if anybody decides to come and 'get' me (N.B. my honesty compels me to give my full personal details, with physical address for all to see), my resolve may falter and I may embrace a settlement with Israel that is less honourable for Palestinian dignity? Maybe, if they decide to come and GET me, I may decide that it is safer to align myself with the lines of Ardeshir Zahedi about Iranian policy towards the US and of Fouad Adjami about Arab policy towards the US than, say, Trita Parsi’s line for Iran and Ismael Haniyeh’s line for the Palestinians.
Now, Aaaron. Don’t tell me that because I have been totally candid, YOU have YOURSELF decided to come and GET me?
February 7, 2008 1:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 13:25
China and Iran get together for some oil deals - what does it really mean? These are simply non-economic, forced marriages by the State-operated monopolies that make the deals. It's like Cuba, North Korea and Russia signing "massive" economic deals back in the 60's and 70's. It's a marriage of convenience, which, when conditions change, will end in the same way. Ivory-tower academics can spin all the "strategic" theories they want (and of course somehow involve a poke at Bush) but the simple fact is - China operates in the Zimbabwe's, Burma's and Iran's of this world, because it gets great, cut-rate deals from chumps who run these pariah states. Mugabe and the Ayatollah's have run their economies into the ground, so they need money and jobs from somewhere.
February 7, 2008 1:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 13:24
Aaron,
Another example of Taqiya would be telling the restive muslim population that we espouse Freedom and Liberty for all. All the while supporting the dictators who oppress them for our benefit.
February 7, 2008 12:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 12:55
Oh Mohammed most intelligent one,
Nobody cares what crazy evangelical says because he is IMPOTENT in our secular system of trust and rule of law. Ahmedinejad the crazy islamist dictator is not impotent, but has complete control, in particular over the secret weapons programs and hundreds of thousands of suicide jihadis called the revolutionary guard, as well as the arch terror groups Hezbollah and Hamas.
You talk a lot of fancy crap about game theory. Any of those models ever factor in Jihad, suicide terror, or any of the other factors codified in the Koran that directly rule out the possibility of goodwill, trust, and cooperation with "the other?" I don't think so.
Everyone knows what a Taqiya is (telling the infidel what they want to hear in english, with completely decietful intentions and saying something completely differnt in Arabic or Farsi)and what "hudna" entails (a short truce when defeat is near, with the intent to reqroup and carry on the Jihad of annihilation when strength and advantage recovered.)
Believe me I want to help the Palestinians. But only an idiot believes that retreat in the face of terror, leaving a society born, bred and raised to hate and kill for an eternity of carnal indulgence, will do anything but encourage more terror. Clearly accept Israel as the (only) Jewish state, and they will have to leave the West Bank, and everyone will prosper. Make Israel's destruction your goal, and you empower only the elements who argue (now quite convincingly) that peace with all Muslims and Arabs (that doesn't require national suicide) is nothing but a pipe-dream for hippies like me.
February 7, 2008 12:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 12:17
Spiderman2 is one crazy dude.
Let me tell you, Spiderman2, was this country is so great: It is because crazies like you are few and far in between.
You reminded me that crazy fanatics are not just limited to other faiths. We have a few as well.
You and your type are the dumb alcoholic relative that we try to keep away during events and celebrations, lest you humiliate all of us in public.
February 7, 2008 10:35 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 10:35
Aaron.
As you can see, I have other things to do than posting comments n WAPO On Faith Forum.
Yes, everyone who is not totally insane is 'supposed to believe that they don't really mean "Death to America,"' just the way I believe that whatever-his-name crazy Evangelical does not really mean it when he says that Hugo Chavez should be assassinated. However, when crazies nec plus ultra say that they will bomb whole countries back to the stone age, you better start organizing your jihadists and suicide bombers, because that's the only effective weapon you will have to defend your self. That's a lesson I (yes I Mohamed Malleck) have learnt but AhMADJihad has yet to learn, poor guy being naive enough to think that he can make crazies nec plus ultra listen to reason by coming to Columbia University to lecture them on Islamic values.
As for 'practicing standard Taqiya with regards to their nuke program', that depends upon whether you are looking at the dynamics of decision-making from the inside or from the outside and whether you have some empathy with the decision-maker or you are antagonistic to him.
Ok, what am I talking about? Well, ‘Taqiya’ – what do YOU understand by the word, Aaron? Deceit, indecision, calculated mixed signals, Game-Theory-type moves that build into the strategic choice the response of the rival to confidence-building measures, to threats, to ‘optimal penal code’ moves designed to build credibility in your prowess as well as in your honorable intentions to collaborate provided your dignity is respected? What I understand by “Taqiya” --- and the sense of the term that practitioners of the art have understood and refined as Islam came into contact, sometimes conflicting sometimes collaborating, with its neighbouring civilizations (including the Mongols who conquered and sacked Baghdad and Damascus but then converted to Islam and went on to spread the Religion to China!) --- is the latter one which modern scientists have called Game Theory.
In that sense, of course, Taqiya is context-sensitive. Hamas proposed a ‘Hudna’; for a full year no suicide bombing inside Israel, whatever the treacherous actions of IDF in attacking helpless Palestinian villages in the Gaza strip and of the Israeli Government in expanding the illegal settlement programmes (which Seth denounces with very bitter reprobation against his fellow-Israelis in today’s issue of The Guardian of UK). But, of course, the ‘information set’ of Israeli madness is built into Hamas’ decision about a choice of strategy. Then, what? You have the latest suicide boming, the first in a full year of calm, accompanied by a warning of more to come? What will be the response of the opposing party, Israel?
The ball, as they say, is currently in the Israeli court.
That’s what is meant by “Taqiya’ is context-sensitive.
The same logic applies not only to Iranian choice of strategy vis-à-vis the US on the one hand and China on the other, but also, in a ‘multiplayer, multiple entry and exit Game Theoretic scenario’, about the choice of strategy vis-a-vis the Iran-India-Pakistan Pipeline, vis-à-vis Russia, vis-à-vis the Gulf Cooperation Council States, vis-a-vis Central Asian States.
Ahmadinejad tried to explain all this in his own language at Columbia, as did Khatami at Davos only about ten days ago. But, of course, there are those who only think AhMADjihad and those for whom Davos is only about the glitterati female stars, maybe Sarkozy’s new wife, or maybe the millions of dollars that Nursultan Nazarbayev pledge’s to the William Clinton Foundation.
Yes, Aaaron. Unfortunately, not only were we not all endowed with the same ‘default mindset’ of good will and trust towards our fellow humans, but also, we were not all endowed with the same intelligence. Alas!
February 7, 2008 10:24 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 10:24
And correction for Thermopylae: Persia has not been the west's antagonist for 3,500 years. You may have meant to say 2,500 years.
Or maybe you were taught 3,500 years in that little backwater school you were taught near Thermopylae.
Cyrus the Great, a term coined by the Jews, liberated the Jews from captivity and respected all faiths and cultures. His proclamation is recognized as the FIRST authored Bill of Rights for all Humans. Replicas of the cylinder of Cyrus are displayed in the United Nations.
Thomas Jefferson and the founders of our great nation kept a copy of Cyropedia, written by a greek (Xenophon) as inspiration on how to righteously rule a new nation.
Lastly, Xerxes was the very same ruler that saved Esther and her people from certain slaughter.
Persians were monotheists, while the greeks where idol worshippers.
Persians abolished slavery, while greek nobles enslaved men, women, and especially young boys.
February 7, 2008 10:01 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 10:01
Correction for Mr. Hippolytus: Tiny Greek nations did not annihalate Persia. In fact, Persia had burned Athens under Xerxes, before Alexander burned Persepolis.
The only difference is that Persia rose again, under the Parthians, Sassanids, and after the islamic conquest, under the Safavids.
Whereas, Greece returned to being a backwater a mere 2 centuries after Alexander's death, only to be dominated by the Romans.
Learn your history my son. Greece was great because of democracy, but it really didn't have much durability or perseverance compared to the persians, who always rise to the occassion.
February 7, 2008 9:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 09:50
Aaron.
As you can see, I have other things to do than posting comments n WAPO On Faith Forum.
Yes, everyone who is not totally insane is 'supposed to believe that they don't really mean "Death to America,"' just the way I believe that whatever-his-name crazy Evangelical does not really mean it when he says that Hugo Chavez should be assassinated. However, when crazies nec plus ultra say that they will bomb whole countries back to the stone age, you better start organizing your jihadists and suicide bombers, because that's the only effective weapon you will have to defend your self. That's a lesson I (yes I Mohamed Malleck) have learnt but AhMADJihad has yet to learn, poor guy being naive enough to think that he can make crazies nec plus ultra listen to reason by coming to Columbia University to lecture them on Islamic values.
As for 'practicing standard Taqiya with regards to their nuke program', that depends upon
February 7, 2008 9:01 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 09:01
Duhhhhh....
China and Iran are both developing countries. China is only on stage 2 of development (and Iran is a little further behind) which are:
1. export of commodities and raw materials as means of survival
2. transformation of commodities and manufacturing and exporting the commodities with value-added
3. development and export of services to add further value to products (such as tourism or design or consulting)
4. development and export of technology and innovation.
To measure Chinese advancement, just ask why have they not build a locally-designed aircraft even though they are potentially the only market in the world where it makes sense to have this indigenous manufacturing (which is complex but only pays off when there is mass production)? To compare, Russia has its own, still and even though they went thru a nasty period of bad finances and management.
My point is that there is a limit on cooperation of two developing countries with each other. China does not even make very old-and-dumb tech things like oil drilling bit ....essentially a piece of steel that cuts a hole in the ground thru rocks, or heavy diesel engines for ships or trucks!
February 7, 2008 3:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 03:44
Relying on China is like building a house on sand in the dry season. We don't know what will happen when the rain comes.
China is using anyone it can to further its economy and create job for the millions of people that are still unemployed.
I'm not sure that China will continue to exist in the same structure that it's today. It might divided into many city states.
If China survives and continue to built strength, then, once China is strong enouh, it will dominate it's neighbor, Iran included, and Iranian might prefer western hegemony over the Chinese one.
Short term benefit, but long term problem!
February 7, 2008 3:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 03:11
I have watched this coming since Nixon went to China.. I'm discouraged
February 7, 2008 3:06 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 03:06
The tiny greek nations of the ancient world annihilated the persian empire. China has been a stagnant backwater for thousands of years, like the egyptians they delight in stablility through tyranny, not chaos and freedom. Go to China today and you will see everything they glory in, is a product of the western man and the western mind. Like the japanese and the ancient persians, modern China will miscalculate the power of free nations to wage war against slave states. China risks being cut to pieces and Iran dissembowled. The Russians at least appreciate the full power of the West the father of all and every idea that the world possesses today. China will have second thoughts once the full weight of America turns against it. China and Iran and all muslims lust for war with america. Some day we will oblige you people with 10,000 Hiroshimas. Then you my dear muslim friend will learn; decent and free peoples can only be antagonized for so long. As Ronald Reagan loved to say: "History is littered with the wreckage of regimes that have underestimated us." Ask the Shintoists, Nazis and Soviet Communists how far we can be pushed. Slave nations will never triumph over free peoples. Be careful what you wish for, our violence will be terrible. God will judge
February 7, 2008 2:22 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 02:22
"some pundits argue that one of the top strategic goals for the United States in starting the Iraq war was to dominate the Middle East region’s energy resources and control China, its potential 21st-century global rival. ... But imposing pressure, sanctions, or isolation on Iran will only push the country further toward China."
the author would be correct that gulf hegemony, not gulf democracy, is the sine qua non of the iraq invasion. the author however is incorrect in asserting that american pressure pushes iran towards china. iran propels itself to find an ally in china as it seeks to wrest what america has long had, and which the annhilation of the former iraq has greatly furthered: gulf hegemony.
persia has been a consistent antagonist of the west for 3,500 years. underestimating the iranian will to dislodge america from its gulf perch should not be underestimated.
with the advent of atomic ayatollahs, gulf--and by extension--global american hegemony would come to an end. the extirpation of the ayatollah's thermonuclear fantasies remains the fundamental current challenge to american policy.
it is the mission of propaganidists such as this auhor to instill the notion that the problem can be solved in any way other than the application of massive american military power.
February 7, 2008 12:58 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 7, 2008 00:58
I see this article manages to talk about US war mongering in the Middle East and avoids all mention of a certain country that also starts with an 'I' and is a religious dictatorship like Iran only the people doing this start their name with a 'J' rather than 'S'.
After seen Mr. Gandhi kicked to the curb for daring to mention Israel, Jews and a request that they stop abusing the Palestinians meant that this other writer who is non-Jewish is walking on eggs and will try to avoid all mention of the stubborn issues that makes hash of ANY American 'diplomacy' there.
The Chinese don't have this burden and will eventually win over all the Muslims. While the people trying to destroy the Palestinians will get a few more huts and olive groves. And the US earns the hatred of the whole planet. Way to go, I say, sardonically.
February 6, 2008 11:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 6, 2008 23:44
It is interesting that this piece does not use the "terrorist" word, nor "muslims". While Bush-Cheney have neatly divided the Middle East into "friendly nations" and "extremists", China and Russia have applied diplomatic counter measures, to hold off Bush-Cheney interventions.
February 6, 2008 11:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 6, 2008 23:11
Dear Mohammed,
"if kept within legitimate bounds" is a pretty big if when talking about the suicide Jihadis who run Iran. Are we expected to just take a chance that they don't really mean "Death to America," and are not practicing standard Taqiya with regards to their nuke program? If Iran were a secular capitalist democracy, everything you say would be true. But instead it is the quintissential terror state. We don't need Islamists nukes to have a multi-polar world.
February 6, 2008 11:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 6, 2008 23:08
I think the author make a strong argument. The world in two-three decade ahead would be a world of new rising global and regional powers like China and Iran, this is a reality that the West sooner or later should accept and adjust itself with it.
February 6, 2008 7:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 6, 2008 19:15
Iran's geostrategic calculations are even more refined than what is presented in Kayhan's analysis. The Iran-Pakistan-India Pipeline, with possible extension to China is only one card in a set of aces and kings and queens that the Iranain nation holds to advance its distinctive development agenda combining what is best in both Eastern and Western civilisational processes.
Iran is ready for a partnership of equals with the West, but the US (and to a lesser extent Europe under Brown, Sarkozy, Merkel and the likely return of Berlusconi after Romano Prodi) high-handedness and outright bullying has so far prevented that. From that perspective, yes, China has emerged as a highly-esteemed economic, political and cultural partner for Iran.
Nonetheless, there are clouds on the horizon. Like Pakistan, Iran is at a crossroad of civilizations --- Persian, Arab, Turkish/Central Asian influences are pronounced. The Central Asian states that have pronounced vestiges of their former Russian-satellite economico-political dynamics are going to be the object of a tough competition for geostrategic influence on the part of Russia, China, and the US. In parallel, of course, India will keep a very watchful eye with a keen geostrategic and resource-control interest of its own, while Iran, Pakistan and the Arab countries will naturally feel they have a more compelling stake in the region both by virtue of historical ties and proximity.
From this perspective, the emerging multipolar world in which a newly-assertive Iran will operate will have large territorial swathes with a variable geometry to an emergent Greater Middle-East power pole. That new power-pole will take time to emerge and will, in the interim, find Iran allied, at certain times, in an axis with China, at other times in an even wider axis comprising Iran/Pakistan/India/China, and at still other times in an Islamic axis with the Arab world plus Turkey and Pakistan.
Such a multi-polar world with variable-geometry poles will be flexible and may cause some unsettling stresses without fundamental instability. That configuration will greatly benefit global economico-political and military-industrial convergence.
In sum, what I am adding to Kayhan's argumentation is that, far from being an agent of instability and tension in world politics, Iran's new assertiveness, if kept to within legitimate bounds, as indeed, has been the case so far, will have a lot to contribute to global convergence.
February 6, 2008 6:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 6, 2008 18:48
The reason why the U.S is the greatest country is because it is the country that fit to the description of Apostle Paul which says that the children of faith and NOT the children of works (this includes the four major religions [ Islam, Budhism, Hinduism, Judaism ] and some major false christian religions like catholicism) will inherit and rule the earth. A big portion of the people in the U.S and even the first settlers in Portsmouth, Massachusetts believe that scripture. They inherit the prophecy by believing it. This country will ultimately rule the earth coz that is the prophecy.
The U.S. did not start WW2 but that was the beginning of the fulfillment of that prophecy and WW3 would establish it fully even though the U.S. won't start it.
That is the prophecy and those who would challenge it (there would be many) may temporarily win but in the final showdown, the prophecy would still prevail.
A lot of people will be "vaporized".
America has been protected by God from two World Wars but not this time because of the increasing liberalism and secularism among its people.
Salvation is personal and being a member of a religion would not save a person. But Eph. 2:8-10 and Jn 3:16 sums it all and those who live these verses in their hearts are the holders of true religion.
The history of this world is pretty much laid out already. Parts of America is liberal and secular and that will be destroyed by its enemies. But the bigger story is, America's enemies will be wiped off the surface of the earth.
America is not invincible and it could be defeated. But the irony of it is that it's a lot more stronger the second time around. Remember the saying "I shall return"? In WW2, it did returned and pulverized it's enemy like powder.
The same will happen in WW3. The point is, it's not a good thing that America gets defeated coz the next episode will be the annihilation of its enemies. Believe it.
February 6, 2008 6:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 6, 2008 18:22
not surprisingly, the chinese have also begun to successfully circumvent the u.s. around the glode. their foreign and economic policies have been quite simple really. get what we need for what others need and refrain from diving into the dark waters localized or even regional politics as much as possible. whereas china keeps it as uncomplicated as applicable, the u.s. sees itself as an imperialistic power on an unstoppable rise towards world domination. and mr. barzeger is right on the mark when he says that this represents a failure of american foreign policy. the miscalculations of america's neo-conservative community will be difficult to overcome for decades to come.
February 6, 2008 5:58 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 6, 2008 17:58
You should read a new book that I just finished -
The Next Great Clash: China and Russia vs. the United States. There is a great deal of information in this book about China's recent activities in Iran.
February 6, 2008 5:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 6, 2008 17:05
Contrary to this write up China will never jeopardize its vital and very lucrative commercial ties with the US over oil and gas from Islamic Republic. This author is pushing the official line that if full unfettered normal relations between Islamic Republic and US is not established other viable alternatives are to be had. Well not really, in China’s case it is actively exploring for resources in other countries like Sudan and has drastically cut back its banking relations with the Islamic Republic. Islamic
February 6, 2008 4:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 6, 2008 16:44
I think this was a well written article.
Regardless whether it's a power-balancing act or not- it is a good thing that two countries gain trust and benefit each other.
Unlike US' aggressive foreign policies with complete self-interest and a profit-driven concept, these two countries (Iran & China) with great culture and tradition could bond closely.
February 6, 2008 3:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 6, 2008 15:39