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Saudi-Backed Hate Propaganda, Exposed

Why have many Muslims in the UK resisted full integration into British society?

The British government has been trying to address this issue for the last decade, mostly by using the discourse of "multiculturalism." According to that line of thinking, solutions to alienation among Muslims include community outreach and empowerment programs, funding for youth groups and social networking sites, and large inter-faith conferences.

British Muslim leaders have largely supported these initiatives and helped generate the impression, at least in government circles, that everyone is working together to separate rogue extremists from the religious establishment. But Monday night, the Dispatches documentary series revealed a very different picture of what goes on in some of the UK's flagship Muslim institutions.

The filmmakers went undercover at the London Central Mosque in Regent's Park, one of the most prestigious in the country, to show the discord between what imams preached outwardly to the public and what they preached to their faithful in private. Many exalted interfaith dialogue to the government and mainstream media, but turned to teaching radical and isolationist doctrines once behind closed doors.

According to the documentary, they teach the faithful that God orders them to kill homosexuals and apostates; that they should curtail the freedom of women; and that they should view non-Muslims in a derogatory manner and limit contact with them. Many of these leaders are trained in Saudi Arabian Wahhabi philosophy, and use Saudi-approved textbooks and pedagogical materials to teach young students.

When the first installment of the series ran in January 2007 (Monday's program was an update), it generated a Rev. Jeremiah Wright-style controversy. Liberals were shocked; right-wingers were fearful of the continuing influx of Muslim immigrants. The government redoubled its efforts at community outreach.

Some Muslims accused the filmmakers of showing a distorted view of the Muslim population, portraying the views of those who attend mosques as the views of all of Britain's two million Muslims. Others, especially those who appeared in the film, said their words had been taken out of context and selectively edited. The complaints led to a police investigation into the program, but ended up with the police paying libel damages to the film company.

Still, the controversy missed the point of the filmmakers' intentions, which were not only to highlight certain Muslim leaders' hypocrisy, but also to expose Saudi Arabia's role in disseminating hate-filled propaganda.

Saudi Arabia's education and religious outreach programs, whether in the form of textbooks, library endowments or madrassah construction, constitute one of the largest aid programs in the world - roughly $4 billion a year - and introduces hundreds of millions of schoolchildren to radical Wahhabi doctrine via Saudi Embassy-run schools and educational programs in mosques.

Here's my question: Let's take a step back from the UK debate and look at the larger, hegemonic picture presented by Saudi ambitions. Why are the British government and others so uniformly focused on community outreach here, when the message being spread through these mosques has a very clear source?

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Comments (96)

outside viewer:

It is not question of what was writen is the Koran but what is hapenning. The christians runs away from muslim countries becouse of the violence .

Anonymous:

"Here's my question: Let's take a step back from the UK debate and look at the larger, hegemonic picture presented by Saudi ambitions. Why are the British government and others so uniformly focused on community outreach here, when the message being spread through these mosques has a very clear source? "

what a smart question!

Isn't it because the Brits are the ones who supported and even made this movement when they were executing their plan of destroying the Ottoman Empire.

Didn't they call Whhabbism" Islam in its first PURITY"??!!?!!!??

Mr. Fairweather…. I think you ran out of good ideas for you blog.

Saudi Arabia is a moderate country now by the testimony of the most prestigious Israeli leaders!!

PolBeast:

Jack:

Saudi Arabia is a classic example of a rentier state: a nation that lives on its natural resources alone, making it unwilling or unable to reform.

With gas still hovering at $3.60 a gallon, Saudi coffers are overflowing with money that is being used to create some of the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world. In this kind of economic climate, there's very little political will in the West to impose sanctions.

Kuwait's recent parliamentary elections offer a glimmer of hope that change from within Saudi Arabia could be possible. Kuwait is a classic rentier state, but economic elites who benefit from modernization have helped push open the window, if only slightly, for democracy and reform.

tom:

Jack Fairweather,
Excellent article. You did a very good job of analyzing the problem and getting at the source of it. Saudi-funded jihad is causing problems all over the world, from India to Pakistan to Thailand, England, Spain, and now, the U.S., where Saudi-funded teachers and mosques are growing. Thanks for your excellent work.
By the way, the Washington Post serioiusly needs to consider moving Emily Wax back to the metro desk. Her foreign articles are consistenly pro-radical Islam and pro-Jihadhist, not to mention poorly reported and poorly written. She's a young amateur who is clueless about history, context, religion, and it shows in her poor stories. Her recent stories about Kashmir and India are loaded with inaccuracies. And her so-called "5 truths" about Darfur printed last year was atrocious, nothing more than a propoganda piece for radical Islamists and the Wahabbi point of view. It's common knowledge Arabs are commiting genocide in Sudan. But Emily's piece instead promotes lies that prop up jihadist ideologies. Why does the Washington Post tolerate her poor reporting?

Dumhammad:

EVERY SINGLE ISLAMIC THEOCRACY on the face of this earth systematically and deliberately persecutes/oppresses and/or murders people of other faiths. The muslims deny their ongoing genocide of infidels in the Sudan/Darfur (a million plus and counting). This is in addition to the million infidels slaughtered by muslims in the Sudan/Darfur in the late 20th century. Why should I believe muslims are going to act any different here in the US?

Joe:

Z says:
"Now I know all this may sound offending to some. But the fact is Islam, like other beliefs, strongly disapproves of Homosexuality."

If so why does their Allah, according to their prophet, promises the true believers young good looking lads in Paradise to go around serving wine to reclining men by the rivers of milk and honey? Off course it is true that each believer is promised 72 young ladies to service his whims, yet some of the male believers have a preference for young boys and Allah , in His infinite justice, does not want to “take away” from their rewards.

AMH:

Marc Edward aka Muslim Apologist pontificates to me:
“Palestine is not in Europe silly. The Christians in Palestine were allowed to practice their religion. Maybe you need a map.”

May be you need an education. Palestine was 100% Christian at the time the Muslim hordes overran it. Now Christians comprise less than 2%. What happened to the remaining 98%? The were forced through many devious means to give up their religion. To learn about those devices check out the so-called “Omar Pact” that put the guidelines for the treatment of Christians and Jews in Muslim dominated places. Read about it in the cited link below and cry.
This inhuman degrading treatment along with the exorbitant head taxes imposed on non-Muslims did the job. I hope you and your friends are pleased.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html

Z:

First off, you have to understand that the disapproval of gays in Saudi is because of religious beliefs. In Saudi there is an Islamically based government (or one who tries to be a good one, despite the fact of the corrupt king and his royals). So when a homosexual is public about being gay, the Shariah punishment is death. The veiwing on this is as follows.. The person will only be sentenced to death after not repenting and pushing away from being gay and basically being ignorant and arrogant about his/her homosexuality. If they do not repent then they are sentenced to death. The reason for death is because of their sin of Homosexuality. (The view of Homosexuality as a sin is an Islamic belief, as well as a Christian one, and does not neccesarily have to be taken as a fact, dont get offended when i say that, its just a belief)
So when they are executed, they get the punishment of this life (death) for their homosexuality and thus escaping a far worse punishment in the hereafter for that sin (this is the Islamic view).
So dont think its a hitler like killing, a genocide. Its backed by religious beliefs and its not mindless killing, there are many stages and procedures to go through when trying the person in a fair Islamic Trial.
Now I know all this may sound offending to some. But the fact is Islam, like other beliefs, strongly disapproves of Homosexuality.
On another topic, stoning of adulterers, is the same type of procedure.
If a man cheated on his wife, he goes to court and there is a whole procedure on proving him guilty.. he must have four witnesses that saw him doing the act, etc... if he is proved guilty then he is to be stoned to death, so that he escapes the punishment of the next life (far worse punishment), by getting the punishment in this life (less harsh than the punishment of the next).
However, if he she repents sincerely, then they may be pardoned for their act and the punishment is taken away.
And these are religious beliefs that only work in an Islamically runned government. So that means muslims will not stone adulterers or kill gays in another country like the US, because it is not a muslim country, nor is it a country run on Islamic Government.
Now as for Wahhabists, some are indeed extreem.. but the problem is not Islam, its those middle eastern individuals who fail to work with modern times, something Islam does not have a problem with. Islam says to build for the future, not live in the past or live under a rock.

Marc Edward:

AMH:

Mark Edward objects to my post:
“It's hardly defensive if Europeans are invading Palestine.”
'The Muslims invaded the Christian lands including Palestine'

Palestine is not in Europe silly. The Christians in Palestine were allowed to practice their religion. Maybe you need a map.

'and furthermore they(Muslims) prevented the pilgrims from Europe to reach their holy cites. The Europeans were mainly defending their right to visit their holy places. Got that or should I repeat it ?'

Uhhuh, so if Mexicans want to cross the American border "to visit holy cities" we aren't allowed to stop them at the border? Your way of thinking is how the Spanish got suckered into the 30 Years War - "win back the Catholic Lands!" seemed like a good idea. Spain never recovered from that debacle.


Thatcher Ward:

The Dispatcher documentary series exposes not only the Saudi influence but also the precise doctrine of Islam. If you read the Koran, the Hadith and the Sira,the biography of Mohammed, you will find out that what the muslimina says is perfectly correct doctrine. A Muslim, to be classified as a Muslim, must believe in the Koran and Sunnah (the way of Mohammed), hold Islamic dualistic ethics and practice sharia law. Kafirs must submit or regret it. Jihad is their way as it was the way of Mohammed and will always be as it has worked for 1,400 years with its taqiyya and aggressive intimidation. And, yes, if a Muslim wants to leave Islam, they can be killed, just as she says. Islam is basically Arabic cultural imperialism and a theocratic, backward political system cloaked in a tribal religion.

Observer:

With all this talk about Muslims, Arabs, Muslim Brotherhood and Jihad (terror), I felt a need to make an important clarification by way of distinction, First not all Arabs are Muslims and not all Muslims are Arabs. Arabs comprise only 20% of all Muslims.
Christian Arabs while they were at one time the vast majority of the populations of the Middle East and North Africa, now they are minorities in these regions. Their percentage ranges from 40% percent in Lebanon to 0% in Saudi Arabia.
In the American continents, however, Christian Arabs now outnumber the total number of all Muslims by at least a factor of 2. The reason being that Christian Arabs began to immigrate in the late 19th Century because of persecution at the hands of the ruling Turks. Muslims, Arabs and others, started emigrating to North and South America only in the seventies of the last century.
Christian Arabs have threaded themselves within the fabric of the societies they live in that they could hardly be distinguished. They do not try to impose their culture or ideology on any one else , because they have integrated fully and quickly. If anything distinguishes them is their patriotism toward their adopted countries. They produced presidents, presidential candidates, senators, representatives, governors and leaders and pioneers in medicine, science, arts, business and industry. They have produced US army generals as well fighter jet aces. I sometimes can discern an Arab American only from his last name; John abu Rizk, Michael DeBakey, Danny Touma, Ralph Nader, James Zughbi, Tony Shalhoub etc. They seem to exude an influence that is far greater than their numbers. In the small Midwestern town where I live there are two Farha Sport Centers that I know of, Ablah University Library, Colonel James Jabara Airport and Jabara Museum.
This observation is furnished for the information of those who are sometimes inclined to make generalizations about the Arabs.

AMH:


Mark Edward objects to my post:
“It's hardly defensive if Europeans are invading Palestine.”
The Muslims invaded the Christian lands including Palestine, and furthermore they(Muslims) prevented the pilgrims from Europe to reach their holy cites. The Europeans were mainly defending their right to visit their holy places. Got that or should I repeat it ?

truth:

Howiem:

You are correct that the KKK were Southern Democrat. Then all these Southerns became Republicans.

Toomy is right, the KKK of today is predominately Republican.

Omar:

There isn't any meaningful difference between salafist (i.e. wahabbist) doctrine and the doctrine of any other school of islamic thought. They all say that a sane, male apostate should be killed. They all say that those who defame the religion, the Quran or Mohammad should be killed. They all practice gender aparteid. They all say that men are the "maintainers" of women when it comes to enforcing islamic norms, and that those women from whom they (their men) fear disobedience may be beaten. All of them believe that non-islamic societies must be brought under submission to islamic law - and jihad, either through clandestine methods or outright war, is a primary methody for achieving those ends. (And, btw, the taking of female sex slaves in the course of your jihad is entirely permissible - e.g. the war against christians and animists in Sudan in the 80's and 90's was one such "classic" jihad; Pakistan against E. bangladesh in 1971 against hindus and supposedly "hinduized" muslims was another - and there are MANY, MANY other such jihads going on RIGHT NOW).

The ONLY meaningful difference between salafists of the Wahabbi strain and every other school of islam is that the Salafists currently have the money for world-wide propogation. That's IT.

The muslim Brotherhood, parent organization of virtually every large, mainstream islamic organizationin America from CAIR to ISNA to MAS to the MSA, has the following to say about America from one of their high level strategy documents:

"The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a "Civilization-Jihadist" process with all the word means. The Ikhwan [muslim brotherhood] must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack. . . "


http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/columnists/rdreher/stories/DN-dreher_09edi.ART.State.Edition1.4235f88.html

Marc Edward:

AMH:
Henry something or other spews at Robert:

“What would you think of Christianity during the Crusades? A peaceful religion?”

'The Crusades were a clumsy and rather belated response to a long series of encroachments by Islam against the Lands of the Christians, and fighting back should be considered as defensive effort'

It's hardly defensive if Europeans are invading Palestine.
Moreover the Crusades represent only a fraction of the religious wars fought by Christians. One would be better pointing at the 30 Years War which killed half the civilian population in Germany (made worse that it was a proxy war between Spain and the Netherlands).
I agree with the poster that gets nervous around any kind of fundamentalist - be they Jewish, Christian or Muslim - and I'd add any "true believer" who cannot accept it when their doctrine is proven wrong, like Communists and Maoists.

bd:

I hope liberals realize that the Jihadist have a big problem with them first and/or their lifestyle. MAjority of the muslims living the US and UK I would venture to say are very conservative NOT LIBERAL. A lot of them have a selfish motive to extract services and monies from the Govt.

Muslims - if you wish the come to the west - The west is not just a geographically location but an idea. As such as you become a significant minority - you will make it LIKE the you came from - a distasteful unkept filthy place with beggers and corrupt- It has proven itself - go look at Albania, bosnia and kosovo

khalid:

This anti muslim ragime is a danger for all muslims around the world. Helps Americans and israelis in any respect, money ,Oil . basies in the golf and so on. Saudi people are very nice people but the ragime is something else.Muslim world have no trust on saudies. kingdom is the safe heaven to Ameican army to spy and control ,and slaughter Muslim nation in the golf and midlle east like Irag and Afganistan.Dont forget that Saudies allowed US plane to attack poor Iragies.
But who lived forever ? i hope one day we will see the true kingdom without the any US base and US army in this very holly place.

khalid:

This anti muslim ragime is a danger for all muslims around the world. Helps Americans and israelis in any respect, money ,Oil . basies in the golf and so on. Saudi people are very nice people but the ragime is something else.Muslim world have no trust on saudies. kingdom is the safe heaven to Ameican army to spy and control ,and slaughter Muslim nation in the golf and midlle east like Irag and Afganistan.Dont forget that Saudies allowed US plane to attack poor Iragies.
But who lived forever ? i hope one day we will see the true kingdom without the any US base and US army in this very holly place.

oberle:

Freesom sez:

Can Jack Fairweather and the rest of his white suprimacist friends answer this question. Who is protecting the corrupt dictatorships in in saudi, kuwait, jordan...
The white suprimacists could have demanded kuwait become a democracy without a single bullet fired. Propaganda is white suprimacist news.

Ummmm, dork, can you prove Jack Fairweather is a white supremacist? Or is it that you just can't stand it when Islam is viewed and discussed by non Islamic westerners?

Thought so.

And Yale, can the caps. Looks like you're yelling.

yale:

ALL OF US WHO BELIEVE IN GOD, BELIEVE IN THE SAME GOD. WHY IS IT IMPORTANT THAT ONE OR ANOTHER APPROCH TO GOD HAS TO BE CORRECT. THE ISSUE OF CORRECTNESS HAS CAUSED MORE KILLING THAN ALL OF THE WARS COMBINED. THE NECESSITY TO BE RIGHT IS THE SINGLE MOST CAUSE OF INTOLORANCE. I ONLY WISH I OR SOME ONE WERE WISE ENOUGH TO TEACH ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD THAT A BELIEF IN GOD IS ALL THAT IS IMPORTANT AND NOT HOW YOU REACH HIM. I SUPPOSE I AM JUST A DREAMER.

howiem:

Toomy ought to do some homeork before illustrating his ignorance. The KKK was mainly composed of Southern Democrats, and Martin Luther King was a Republican.

Buddesatva:

Still waiting for an apology ...
When will Islam apologize to the entire world for promoting suicide and murder? When will Muslims rise up and reject the idiots who have hijacked a religion that advocates peace and a love of God? Silence, dead silence, gutless cowards have perverted Islam. The enemy is not cartoonists or feminists or people of other faiths. The enemy is Islam is poverty, ignorance and the fruit-cakes who want to kill their way into heaven. I know that Islam is a religion of peace. Tell the world and tell the fools who think they are the annointed ones to walk off a cliff somewhere.

edword:

DEF - You mean like at Rev. Wright's Trinity church?

Center:


Attaching Saudi Arabia is not the answer. There is more intolerance all over.

Tolerance is what the world needs.

Who is tolerant? Are You?

ZZim:

This isn't really news to most people. It's news that some folks need to have their noses rubbed in it before they are willing to admit that it's a problem. The Left has been feeding people a steady stream of "Western traditional values bad, everyone else's traditional values good" propaganda for decades. It's nice to see the fact that hatred has many sources in the world get some news time. Despite afforts to paint the West as the aggressor in the culture war called the "War on Terror" by some, "Clash of Civilizations" by others, the truth comes out. We are NOT the aggressors. And responding to Muslim aggression is NOT aggression on our part.

Google "Just War Doctrine". The War on Terror is a just war. We should all support it.

Toomy:

Sound like the Republican Convention!

How many of the GOP convention goers are also going to attend the annual national KKK rally?

Michael:

We are all gone completely crazy. That's probably the only truth, religion, present and future to face.

Kind regards

Rory:

This is a very timely and on-point question. It's amazing how much Islamic radicalism can be traced directly back to Saudi Arabia, our ostensible ally. And it's not just unique to Britain. Some of the most radical mosques in America - those in northern Virginia near DC - are funded by the Saudis, and have generated a steady stream of violent radicals, including imams later expelled for terrorist ties, and two of the 9/11 hijackers themselves.

Other Muslims don't seem to have any interest in stopping Wahhabism, even though most of its victims are ultimately Muslim. It's high time we cut bait with Saudi Arabia and cut off much Islamic radicalism at the source.

That Christian:

Apparently 610.

I originally guessed 622 but that came out of a Larry Collins/Dominique LaPierre paperback.

Mark Chiu:

I find all fundamentalists, whether Muslim, Jewish or Christian, are similar. God is always telling them to kill gays or nonbelievers, claim their promised land (whether Zionism or 'felling trees and Indians') and remove the current inhabitants, or crusading against the other evil religion. In US, the 'Bible Belt' is the former slavery states, not by coincidence, as religion was used to justify slavery of blacks. Same in South Africa where former white leaders were all members of the same state church that uses the Bible to justify apartheid. Similar, Jews use the Old Testament to justify ethnic cleansing to reclaim their Holy Land. And Muslims, well the media is already all over them so I won't add anything.

If God created all people and thus all are His children, why would He instruct one son to kill another son? For parents out there, I don't think you would ever ask the good, well-behaved son to kill the naughty son. If not, then God's love, being magnitudes greater than human love, why would He ask one of His children to kill other children?

Those who are ungodly, selfish, and full of hatred rather than of love seek their own gain and advantage by using religion and God to trick people into doing things that people inherently know are wrong and need to be convinced through religion that doing wrong is ok if God tells them to do it. Without religious indoctrination, could a suicide bomber kill himself and dozens of innocent people? Could the Israeli soldier force families off their land to make room for settlers? Could people justify slavery without the religious explanation that God allows it for the benefit of the enslaved? Excuses are created to placate and falsely assure our inherent sense of right and wrong. If it were not obviously wrong to our inherent moral sense, what need is there to create and seek religiously justification?

you're wrong anonymous:

Muhammad was not even born until 570 AD, 30 years after your claim. I thought your figure was a little off....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad


a Christian

zaid algeria :

i would like to say that tolerance or violence has not any relation with religion .you can see japanese they have not divine religion but they are the kindest people in the world. the problem is education or up bringing . bye .

ben:

saudis are the disease of this world. they're funding of this extreme whaabism in poorer muslim countries is what is the source of the fanatism that threatens everyone muslim and non-muslim. why does the US and Britain still support these archaic minded saudis??? we continue to support this indirectly by our dependence on their oil. they need to invest their loads of money to something like spreading their ideology. and now they are buying football clubs!! ashame!! this issue must come to the forefront and addressed.

Absolute Zero:

This entire blog illustrates one thing, that humans need to develop a different thinking process. Seemingly no one can handle facts objectively. Facts are interpreted firsthand through the biased psyche and the result is mis-directed belief and more bias. This has got to change if we are going to get anywhere together.

Joe:

Since when is Saudi Arabia the model for Muslims and Islam. The Saudi's do not practice Islam as taught and practice my Prophet Muhammad.
Show me a Christian country that practice Christianity as taught by the Bible

jkoch:

Of course Islam prescribes tolerance. It demands tolerance of Islam and its clergy. Western courts must tolerate Sharia settlement of divorces, child custody or estates, which greatly favors men. In turn, Islam will indulge the existence of certain other monotheists who "know their place," do not preach or celebrate their creed in public, refrain from any challenge to Islam, wear distinctive clothing, do not touch food sold to or eaten by Muslims, pay a special tax, and preferably do not employ any Muslims. Marriage with a Muslim demands conversion to Islam. This tolerance does not extend to non-Mosaic religions and does not, in any way shape or form, permit any Muslim to convert to another faith, on penalty of death. Some cite a Koranic phrase, that "in faith there is no compulsion," and stretch it to equate to the First Amendment, but the burden of Koranic scripture points quite the other way, and the phrase in question probably really means, "you can't tussle with the faith."

Anonymous:

since 540 ad the islamics have been at war with everyone not islamic. noting changes.

freesom:

can Jack Fairweather and the rest of his white suprimacist friends answer this question. Who is protecting the corrupt dictatorships in in saudi, kuwait, jordan...
The white suprimacists could have demanded kuwait become a democracy without a single bullet fired. Propaganda is white suprimacist news.

Jim:

So what’s new? Obama will probably lose the election for president because whites who in public say that they are not prejudice and would accept a black president disparage him when in groups that are not public.

Blacks when they are not in the public’s eye who outwardly say they support Obama because of his qualifications disparage whites and say they will vote for Obama because he is black.

The question that begs to be answered is what makes a good citizen. Is it fully integrating into society in such a way that one loses his or her identity to the majority or is it getting up each morning, going to work to support ones family and respecting the law?

I would guess that a good citizen does the latter and that most of the 2 million Muslims in Britain are good citizens. P.S. Britain, quit spying on your good citizens.

PostPoster:

Did I just see a guy (George?) comment that something in Islam, and something in Saudi, can be religious without being political?

If you live in a theocracy, all religion is political. If it is also a, um, Kingdom, then the enforcement of religion as politics is absolute.

Submission is a political act as well as a religious one - especially if submission is carefully molded by those with a fanatical agenda.

Mutley:

I just wanted to add a little to points that others have raised.

The 'shock horror revelation' comes not from the fact that this stuff is being disemminated per se. We have been told for quite some time that the government working with 'moderate muslims' and mosque authorities have put an end to radicals using mosques to preach their hate and spread their literature in the UK. Hence the police attack on the makers of the original programme instead of an investigation into the illegal race hate being preached. Police like politicians prefer to shoot the messenger rather than tackle difficult problems. The revelation is that the activities appear to be going on much as before.

This failure of a policy of 'outreach' as Nardis calls it is reflected more widely in community interaction or rather lack of it. Far from integrating, racial and religious groups are increasingly isolated through self imposed ghettoisation. The left's knee-jerk response of crying ''Racism'' at every objection is increasingly alienating English people who see their own way of life constantly denigrated in a policy akin to appeasement.

To Nardis' question of whether there were similar activities to 'Paki pounding': Yes but known as Paki bashing in the 1970's / early eighties. The current situation is that ethnic groups are increasingly loyal to their own ethnic / religious tribal turf. The latest gang violence in London has been black v asian. In northern towns, black, white and asian lead increasingly separate lives and woe betide any fool or stranger who strays into the wrong area.

The whole left wing concept of multi culturalism has been a complete failure and exacerbated the very tensions it claimed it would eradicate. What we are left with is a shallow policy of appeasement and tip-toe politics because our politicians are too scared to get to grips with the problems. Honour killing is all too horribly evident in communities that have no intention of integrating into their host community or their way of life.

Tim:

Islam is Islam and will ultimately always be driven by the words of Mohamed in the Koran. Why are we blaming Saudi Arabia for what is in the Koran?

It is all about who you follow. If a person truly follows Mohmed, then what you get is "kill the unbeliever." Why is this so hard to understand? Perhaps because people who believe in personal, design your own religions do not understand that many are or at least try to be true followers of The Prophet. They take his words literally and when they act upon them you get Islamic intolerance and Islamic terror. This is how it has always been and how it will always be.

George:


I am shocked by all this hate of Jack Fairweather and some of your other readers in this column. Wahhabism is a religious doctrine that simply advocates praying directly to God without the interdiction of a Saint or a priest. Because of the wars in the region and Israeli graphic atrocities in Palestine, and the war in Iraq, some nationalists attempted to borrow and expand this religious( not political) and politicize it. So when you have invasions and wars in the region, it is rational to to see people reach out to change and twist essentilly a social-theological theory into a poltical one. Fairweather and others find it fashionable
to attack Moslems in every way and fashion

Jack Senate:

I haven't read all of the entries here mainly because they largely seem to be sort of silly and based on grossly uninformed opinions.

What I am sure of is that it's always good to know where any group is actually standing at any given time. If Saudi Arabian players are inclined to preach their philosophies, then little can be done about it; every message finds ears somewhere. The British governement's initiative centers on filling ears with a different message. However, these initiatives also have a second effect, namely, they clear the way for measures under the heading of "We did everything we could, and you chose not to cooperate". This statement typically prefaces carte blanc of corrective measures.

What folks also don't seem to understand is that this message has been around for a long time, and it'll never go away. Interestingly, the hate mongers don't seem to read many history books. There's only rarely been extended eras of tolerate dominion in human history, and the groups (however good or evil) that managed them best were highly educated and well versed on human nature.

The target demographic is notorious for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory on a near regular basis. A message of hate can agitate, but it cannot endow. Clumsiness, aversion to growth, and emotionalism aren't whiped away by agitation.

V Jain:

Check this on FlowTV website:

'... to bring the teachings of Islam into the homes and hearts of Arabs worldwide. ... the Riyadh government spent more than $70 billion on Islamic projects ...

'While the funding of mosques and the ideological direction of those who frequent them do not necessarily correlate, the influence of the Saudis over the content of the sermons, the training of imams, and the substance of Islamic schools’ curricula is undeniable'.

also check out:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/ for answers

Mark from Planet Earth:

Huh. And the US is making weapons sales to Saudi and UAE right now. I understand that Horthrop Grumman is selling them both fleets of UAVs.

Joe:

Sad, most of the people that comment on Islam, dont know about Islam. We should first learn about Islam and then talk about Islam, most people get their religous knowledge from talk show host and the internet. It takes about 10 years of studing to become an Islamic scholar.
The next time you need a medical procedure dont go to a medical specialist, read up on the internet or call into a talk show.Have we not learned from the past, Sodom & Gomorrah,God destroyed the city, why, because of their sexual acts. Use the past as a reference, for the future

Garak:

The Saudi's Wahabbi efforts to radicalize Islam bears remarkable resemblance to the parallel efforts of the far-right Institute on Religion and Democracy (IRD) in our nation. The IRD seeks to radicalize Christian denominations by organizing and funding fanatical extremist groups within the various churches. These fanatics take over a church, and then purge it of normal Americans. See http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1496.html. The IRD, like the Wahabbis, hates gays, atheists, moderates, liberals, anyone who does not buy into their hate-filled theology. They were key in turning the Southern Baptist Convention into a bastion of extremism that preaches persecuting anyone outside their fold.

Importantly, the IRD and its fellow travelers follow the Wahabbi line and preach that anyone not subscribing to their extremist theology is not a real Christian. They preach that dissent is anti-Christian, and that these "false Christians" are the singe greatest threat to "true" Christians, more so than al Qaeda. They seek a theocracy in which all not of their kind have no rights and are persecuted. Just look at Saudi Arabia. Non-Wahabbi Muslims have no rights there. The IRD actively seeks a "Christian" version in America.

Like the Wahabbis, the IRD and its successors are highly-organized and well-funded. And like their Wahabbi brothers, they are relentless and uncompromising. Just as we must destroy Wahabbism before it destroys us, we also must destroy the IRD and its affiliates and successors and all they represent.

It's them or us.

Garak:

Besides having no WMD, Saddam put religious fanatics where they belong--in jail. Iraq did not use Wahabbi hate texts in schools under Saddam. Saudi Wahabbism was responsible for 9/11, not Saddam. We should have let him keep Kuwait but only on condition that he overthrow the Saudi gov't and install a militantly-secularist regime there.

nardis miles:

If the documentary portrays the role of Saudi Arabia accurately (this would not be surprising, considering the state of Islam in that country), then none of the comments actually address the question "Why is the policy to pursue community outreach to the exclusion of more pointed policies directed at Saudi Arabia?" There are two issues that need exploration. First, what are the realistic options directed at Saudi Arabia? The U. S. relies on Saudi oil. Is the UK similarly reliant? If so, how much leverage does either government have? How strong is the drive for decreased dependence on foreign energy sources? In the US, there is the further complication that we are a debtor nation. What if Saudi Arabia decided to divest their holdings of US government securities? If Saudi Arabia is complicit in hate-mongering are we, the citizens, willing to weather the consequences of holding them responsible? Second, it is not clear that hateful or isolationist theology is effective without either prior or present tangible discrimination. In the US, there have been well-publicized cases of violence directed against Muslims and Hindus. "Paki-pounding" or "dot-busting" were active pursuits in urban centers (and probably elsewhere). Were there similar pursuits in the UK? If so, hateful theology is aided by our own bigoted actions. So, as part of a larger strategy, community outreach has to cut both ways. While it is not clear that community outreach will, by itself, address violence (in both directions), I believe it is requisite for any actual progress. Any more direct approaches will require deeper sacrifices. I believe this is why governments have tread so lightly.

vanitsky:

I would like to point out that the article was published in Post Global section - not in the Faith section.

So one could expect more clear and understandable opinions - not religious statements/presentations.

You know, after years of affiliation with the Russian Orthodox Church I have problems with it now.

Especially after revealation made to me by one of prists: "It is not a sin to be gay. It is the sin to have gay sex". Isn't weird?

wahab :

dear reader al wahab is the name ( charectoristic) of God. shias try to disgrace by their poor mental approach . therfore good and bad peple all over the world who was HITLER there thousand of a allustration in history but one thing is important that action and reaction. now wat happend in the world specialy in iraq and afghanistan that is totaly american one side game that game is resultless just american want to make peple against them. supose the Dr.Afia Siddique wat story american soldier manufactured that is totaly foolish story they insulted a innocent muslim girl and now making excuses. Shiats have thier own reservation in the world thats way they love to speak much abt wahabis.
Rest no ARABI never said that he is wahabi but love to follow the God and his massenger education.

vanitsky:

Being gay I can tell you that homosexual relations are mass among males in Muslim countries. Due to obvious reason of lack of women available for sex.
They are not called homosexual/gay - it's a kind of friendship and/or paternalism.

Knowing this Muslim preachers and state do fight those friendly relations for centuries - but without any success.

I am not going to touch anybody's beliefs or illusions.
It my own experience (having sex and having long talks) of traveling almost 2 dozens of Muslim countries within last 15 years.

shafiuddin:

I RECOMMEND VIEWERS TO VISITE THE ISLAMIC WEBSITE: WWW.IRF.NET, YOU CAN DOWN FREE OF COST THE LECTURES, DEBATES (WITH HINDUS, CHRISTIANS,JEWS) YOU HAVE LOT OF KNOWLEDGE FROM THIS WEB SITE.

Anonymous:

The word "Wahabi"is very much familiar with Kafirs, Muslims does not know this word, this word introduced by Jewish Lobby with the help of Idol/graveyard worshipper. No Muslim claims he is Wahaby, not even Saudi claimed they are Wahaby. 9/11 is art work of Bush, unfortunately few saudis traveled in aircraft. There is no proof Binladen involved in this, it is a wish of every American, but no Muslim in the world believed that this art work of 9/11 is from a Muslim. 100% Christians are involved in this. Twin Towers cannot collapes from the Aircraft, unless they planted expolosives and explode. Homo is not acceptable to the society even Bible, once not accepted means there is a punishment. This should be punished because it is crime against humanity and against wemen and you are going to destroy natural system. For any criminal there is a punishment, Timoty Mcvaige does crime and get punishment, it means Bible killed the criminals. IN FACT WEST CULTURE AND FOLLOWERS ARE JEALOUS OF THE ISLAM, and trying to damage image of Islam. If you want to know Islam please website: www.irf.net, where you can view lectures, debates, question and ansers and can be download free of cost.

Vincent:

You don't have to go far to find religious leaders in America preaching intolerance toward gays, Muslims, Catholics, Mormons, single moms, cable tv, birth control or pretty much anything else. Get off your soap box and look in your own back yard.

Akuila Yabaki:

Again i repeat what someone has already written. Why are we surprised they are just doing what their religion teaches them to do. Muhammed say follow me. Muhammed led armies that killed people. Jesus also said follow me. I laid down his life for others. So we are just different and being true to what we believe.

Anju Chandel:

"Saudi-backed Hate Propaganda, Exposed"

The title sounds as if we are going to hear some scandalous revealation for the first time in our life!

What is the "shocking" element here? This is how the entire Islamic society - in majority - behaves and lives all over the world. They identify themselves as Muslims "only" and that is the end of it all.

They respect no nationality, nothing.

The entire humanity is facing this problem and is still unable to understand the "identity crisis" amongst the Muslims. Beyond the narrow teachings and preachings of their faith leaders, they just cannot look beyond. But, yeah, they expect the whole world to adjust to their whims and fancies. ... God save the world !

Deb Chatterjee:

Friends,

Knowing all this, which I think Fahd and Ibrahim have articulated so carefully, why is the Muslim immigration to USA is not becoming an issue in this election ?

If USA also goes the UK path - growth of fundamentalist Wahabi ideology - the secular and sinful world would not exist anymore.

Why is this not a issue yet in the upcoming US elections ?

Mike D.:

This just in, people who epouse God wouldn't know him if he bit 'em on the behind.

Can we get some news here, please?

Wow:

Correcting last sentence of my post:

Now, as much as I would like to believe this facility has unlimited funds and would accept anyone who walks through their doors, it's more likely that they pick people to admit and do it on the basis of their sexual orientation. 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 never happens in surveys.

Wow:

Replying to the long rant by Anonymous.

A couple of things about your statistics:
I know the Los Angeles Times is a reputable news organization but their skills at surveying are probably limited to a phone call or a letter. Since only the people who want to reply are the ones that do, this is probably the worst form of surveying. It is akin to the internet polls about various issues that you see on all the cable news programs now. About the only thing you can tell from either survey is who is watching the program at that moment. Also, if I accept the reliability of your survey, then according to the numbers in the survey 1-in-4 women in this country has been molested. That seems a bit high.
Secondly, the Vermont survey is of adolescents. Let me ask you which is more likely. Mom and Dad find out Johnny is having sex with a girl and call the police on the girl for molesting Johnny or Mom and Dad find out Johnny is having sex with a boy and call the police on the boy for molesting Johnny.
Finally, you give us the case of the enrollment at the Mass. Treatment Center. Now, as much as I would like to believe this facility has unlimited funds and would accept anyone who walks through their doors. It's more likely that they pick people to admit and do it on the basis of their sexual orientation. 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 never happens in surveys.

asian:

I'm not agree with the homosexuality, but why we should hate them and kill them, I think it's very wrong religion. My suggestion for british government dont receive any immigrant from moslem country, if they think their religion is the best, why they don't live in their own country. If we live in other country, it means we should obey the rule in this country.

stupid:

same as radical preacher says that the Palestinian attacks on Israel are God's way of punishing the Jews for not accepting Jesus - Palin preacher.

M. Muthuswamy:

Saudi "outreach" in India

Shocking details and references: http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=5C2AF0F9-9FDD-4595-89BA-308CC5C8549A

Ajay:

Saudis and the rest of the Muslims are just preaching the message of prophet Mohamed. Why are we surprised?

J Johnson:

At the last Baptist church I attended in the US the preacher said gays did not deserve the protect of laws in a GOD FEARING COUNTRY and that it was alright to shot your congressman if he supported gay right. My how times change?

Bert:

This kind of goes back to 9/11 itself, and the simple fact that 15 of the 19 hijackers were in fact from Saudi Arabia. Not Iran, not Iraf, not Afghanistan, but Saudi Arabia. The people Bush likes to hang out with. A parallel development in the United States is that we've got so-called 'christian' people that are also all frothy-mouthed about abortion, gays, and likely take a dim view of non-christians. The common denominator? Stupid people. Oyez. Stupid people make great 'flocks'. You have to have people that are receptive to a given agenda or message in order for it to propagate, else your propaganda
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda ) is essentially without much value. If people are smarter than you are, and throw your religious tracts back at you, or in the trash, or just walk right out of your religious establishment without giving you any money, well, you won't be in the (insert name of Deity here________) business for very long, will you? Um, no. And, if enough people question all the frothy-mouthing, and pulpit-pounding, and generally start asking questions like, 'what is your problem', or, 'can your religious institution account for all its' money', or 'if you're all high and mighty and pious and ____-fearing, then why are you so involved in politics', those kind of questions, well, you could end up de-frocked(collared, robed, whatever) in handcuffs, and trying to account for yourself to the tax authorities and other authorities.
Purveyors of religious propaganda want two things, influence over your head, and access to your wallet. Denied both, they dry up and blow away. The question in Saudi Arabia's case is whether or not these outfits get any government support, and what that country's ultimate ambitions might work out to. Saudi Arabia's got oil, and consequently, they've got some money, and they've got some religiously oriented folks, and they've got us, or U.S., as a customer for their primary export, oil. But, that's about the only thing they've got going for em. If they couldn't sell that oil to us(or anyone else) anymore, I think it'd get pretty quiet pretty fast with the religious agenda stuff. I also think that nothing happens in a vacuum, and as a result of doing a lot of business with the United States, chances are that whole anti-gay thing has kind of bled back and forth, and so have a lot of other things, like an affinity for large sums of money and a gradual abandonment of democratic principles in favor of royalism, and, well, ya gotta wonder how that's all going to work out, there. I have no earthly clue how much money gets paid to the middle east these days for their oil, but it's a fair bet that it's quite a bit. Enough money to buy a lot of influence, enough money to do a lot of things, buy arms, and print more propaganda. Are Saudi Arabia's long-term intentions peaceful? Only time will tell...and that could be a long time, which is probably about how long our military will be stuck in the sand in the middle east.
Reading about stuff like this sure does underscore the importance of continuing to pursue green-tech, not only for ourselves, but for other countries too that are currently oil-dependent and would like to end that circumstance.

Yabinli:

In whatever sense, hate-filled orientation could hardly be considered as a real progressive spiritual force. And, as religion issues always show its sensitive & controversial aspects of human being's plain nature, a journalistic view, possibly being a starting point of any further serious, or academic thinking, patience might be kept. So, here, a limited cultural tolerence, instead of any open encouragement, seems more accurate to describe the situation, UK's social attitude toward multicultural & religious issue.

stupid:

it is simple if you harm or bully another.. they will attack and spew hate.. every ACTION have REACTION... so think clearly.. who always promote war in this modern era... not moslem.. peace religion indeed.. if you learn it..

Anonymous:

Hey Same: Sounds like you are a bit biased aren't you? This thread is about Islamic hatred and promotion of violence towards non muslims. How in the world did you manage to get off topic and turn it into an accusation of child molestation? Anyway, I found some more balanced information for you in case you have not fully educated yourself yet.


http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/one.php


New York Post Exposes High Rate Of Teacher/Student Molestations
In a story not widely publicized in the mainstream press, the New York Post published a story in its July 30, 2001 edition about the secret epidemic of homosexual child abuse cases that go unreported in New York City’s public schools.

The report, “Secret Shame Of Our Schools: Sexual Abuse Of Students Runs Rampant,” by Douglas Montero, is the result of an analysis of 117 cases of sexual abuse between January 1999 and June 2001. Sixty percent of those accused of sexual abuse were transferred to desk jobs inside the school district. Forty percent of those transferred suspects were repeat sex offenders.

The report noted that out of the 117 cases, 212 children were victims. In 45% of the cases, the sex offender attacked more than one student. In nearly 16% of the cases, school officials delayed or tried to cover up the sexual molestations. The average victim is a 15-year-old girl and 75% of the victims were girls. According to the report, “Nearly 20 percent of the offenders are homosexuals and in most of these cases, the attack led to a sexual relationship with the stu- dent.” The report also discovered that the Board of Education investigated another 347 substantiated sex abuse cases between January 2000 and July 20, 2001. Adding the 117 cases with the 327, it appears that at least one child is sexually abused each day by a school employee—and 20% of these molestations against children are done by homosexuals!

Homosexuals Molest Children At A Far Higher Rate Than Heterosexuals
Homosexuals account for only 1-2% of our population based on current surveys. The National Opinion Research Center in 1992 found that 2.8% of men and 1.4% of women identified themselves as “homosexual” or “bisexual. A 1995 survey of 18-49-year-old men published by the Journal of Sex Research indicated that 2.6% of them had engaged in homosexual sex within the prior 12 months; 4% had had homosexual sex within the past five years. In other words, at least 98-99% of our population is heterosexual in orientation.

Homosexual activists routinely claim that most child molesters are “heterosexual” males, thus shifting the focus away from their own very high rates of molestation. Since 98-99% of the population is heterosexual, it is technically correct to say that most molestations are done by heterosexuals. However, statistics indicate that homosexuals pose a far more serious threat to children than do heterosexuals.

For example: In 1987, Dr. Stephen Rubin of Whitman College conducted a ten-state study of sex abuse cases involving school teachers. He studied 199 cases. Of those, 122 male teachers had molested girls, while 14 female teachers had molested boys. He also discovered that 59 homosexual male teachers had molested boys and four female homosexual teachers had molested girls. In other words, 32 percent of those child molestation cases involved homosexuals. Nearly a third of these cases come from only 1-2% of the population.

Dr. Judith Reisman, in her book, Kinsey, Crimes & Consequences, describes the research done by Dr. Gene Abel. This researcher compared the molestation rates of self-confessed homosexual and heterosexual child molesters. In a sample of 153 homosexual molesters, they confessed to a total of 22,981 molestations. This is equivalent to 150 children per molester. Self-admitted heterosexual molesters admitted to 4,435 molestations. This comes to 19.8 victims per molester. Dr. Abel concluded that homosexuals “sexually molest young boys at an incidence that is occurring from five times greater than the molestation of girls.”

This high rate of molestations by homosexuals is consistent with other studies conducted during the past several decades. Here are just a few studies that show homosexuals molesting children at epidemic rates:

The Los Angeles Times conducted a survey in 1985 of 2,628 adults across the U.S. Of those, 27% of the women and 16% of the men had been sexually molested. Seven percent of the girls and 93% of the men had been molested by adults of the same sex. This means that 40% of child molestations were by homosexuals. (Los Angeles Times, August 25-6, 1985)

In 1984, a Vermont survey of 161 adolescents who were sex offenders found that 35 of them were homosexuals (22%). (Wasserman, J., “Adolescent Sex Offenders—Vermont, 1984” Journal American Medical Association, 1986; 255:181-2)

In 1991, of the 100 child molesters at the Massachusetts Treatment Center for Sexually Dangerous Persons, a third were heterosexual, a third were bisexual, and a third were homosexual. (Dr. Raymond Knight, “Differential Prevalence of Personality Disorders in Rapists and Child Molesters,” Eastern Psychological Association Conference, New York, April 12, 1991)

Drs. Freund and Heasman of the Clark Institute of Psychiatry in Toronto reviewed two studies on child molesters and calculated that 34% and 32% of the sex offenders were homosexual. In cases these doctors had handled, 36% of the molesters were homosexuals. (Freund, K. “Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality,” Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy, 1984; 10:193-200)

From these studies and many more, it is evident that homosexuals molest children at a far greater rate than do their heterosexual counterparts. While they comprise only 1-2% of the population, they are responsible for upwards of a third or more of all sexual molestations of children.

Exposing The Homosexual/Pedophile Link
Homosexuals seldom openly admit that they want to sexually assault children, but their literature and their actions tell another story. In the January 1-8, 2001 issue of The Weekly Standard, author Mary Eberstadt exposed the clear link between homosexual activism and the growing North-American Man- Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) movement. Writing in “’Pedophilia Chic’ Reconsidered: The taboo against sex with children continues to erode,” Eberstadt notes:

Gay White American Male:

Hey Anonymous,

Here's what you said:

"What is wrong with being 'anti-gay?

I am not saying that they should be killed or harmed, like some Muslims.

But there is nothing fundamentally wrong with being opposed to gays and their lifestyles. Live with that."

Yeah, I can see how you could think that way, especially when so many are opposed to Muslims for being an abomination and that their lifestyles are not only undermining civilization but are offensive to nearly all of humanity. But let's move beyond your obvious hatred of gays, the fires of which are probably stoked by your own latent homosexuality.

Hate is hate, no matter how you disguise it. And I, as one of those gays that you are opposed to, can tell you that I have no problem ensuring that someone like you harms me or anyone I love. After years of watching over my shoulder for people like you and striking back when needed, I have a trained eye for the evil that lurks in the hearts like yours.

I have fought for everything I have. And if need be, I can fight to protect my family and myself. And I can hide my homosexuality. Can you hide the color of your skin or your Muslimness? What will you do when the day comes that you need to???

God is watching and he knows hate when he sees it. You should think about these things before professing your faith, excuse me, hate.

Patriotic Gay White American Male

Hassan Hadda Heyyakut:

Rumors to the contrary, one and all may be interested in knowing that "Muslims for McCain" is contributing actively to the Senator's campaign.

same :

The western media and the public are used to demonizing Asia or Africa because they have this deeprooted prejudice that Christianity is above all and is the best religion. This is very hypocritical. The Christians had done a lot of bad things in the past and still are doing some (child molestation and such). Any form of organized religion is a menace to the society. In this respect it is no different than Nazi regime or whatever.

Harry S. Hardwicke:

"Barack" (or "Barak") is as much an Arabic name as "Hussein."

Farooki al-Hadoodi:

The translators must have goofed on the "killing" of homosexuals. What's prescribed is that an "offending member" be amputated. ("Member" doesn't mean a human being.)

DontTypeLies:

John in Chicago: So I guess you don't believe in the first amendment for Christians huh?

You only support freedom of speech for people who hate Christianity huh?

Hypocrit.

DontTypeLies:

Hey leftist extremist marxist Henry Ferry: Didn't you know this article is about Islam? I think you are on the wrong section.

John in Chicago:

The British have their radical Muslims and we have their Christian fundamentalist equivalent, one of whom might soon be vice president, God forbid.

DontTypeLies:

This is not Wahaabism. Wahaabism is pure Islam. Islam is what it is and has done many misdeeds in 1400 years. I bet most people don't realize that european whites were kidnapped and enslaved by muslims pre-colonial times. They know it, but hide it like they hide everything else.

WHEN EUROPEANS WERE SLAVES: RESEARCH SUGGESTS WHITE SLAVERY WAS MUCH MORE COMMON THAN PREVIOUSLY BELIEVED

COLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.

Robert Davis
In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.

Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).


“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”

Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”

During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.

“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.

Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.

Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.

continued.....

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htm

flast:

Sounds like the kind of place many republicans ought to feel at home in.

Fahd:

I'm happy to finally hear the words 'hypocrisy' when it comes to muslim leaders. I'm muslim and well versed in the faith and I can certainly say mainstream Islam preaches death to homosexuals, and infidels who refuse to pay 'humiliation tax', the only people who are proffessing true Islam as revealed are the bin ladins and talibans of the muslim world. the rest are not mulsims because they have discarded the tenets of Islam. just as liberals and feminists have deserted the christianity. it only when they are in their own circles that they preach to the faithful the true faith. the west as to wake up and know that they have sleeping enemy within them and could turn pn them at any time.

Shabana:

LOL! Jack Fairweather, don't tell me you are surprised by the insidious Saudi behavior. It is taqiyah, practiced by all Muslims. The most common discussion Muslims have behind closed doors are graphic hate filled descriptions of how the dar-ul-harb will be brought under the control of dar-ul-islam. I remember these discussions even before I knew there was a word called Wahabi.

Slim2:

I doubt seriously, you would hear anymore "hate" coming from a mosque then what's already been spewed from the mouth of Jeremiah Wright, John Hagee or Sarah Palin's own pastor.

zohaib Ahmad:

Well. I wonder if someone make movie about Ahmadiyya Muslim Community represting the true islam with moto "LOVE FOR ALL HATERED FOR NONE". Ahmadiyya Leader give Friday Sermons as well in Surrey Mosque, and his sermons are full of love and tolerance and nothing else. That is why in Muslim world there is so much hate for Ahmadiyaa. In Muslim world Ahmadiyya are declared non-mulsim and prosecuted just because of their faith.

Anonymous:

What is wrong with being "anti-gay"?

I am not saying that they should be killed or harmed, like some Muslims.

But there is nothing fundamentally wrong with being opposed to gays and their lifestyles. Live with that.

AMH:

Henry something or other spews at Robert:

“What would you think of Christianity during the Crusades? A peaceful religion?”

The Crusades were a clumsy and rather belated response to a long series of encroachments by Islam against the Lands of the Christians, and fighting back should be considered as defensive effort.
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army. It is only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians that some Europeans finally acted.This is self defence case if there ever was. Get it?

Charlie McKeon Jr:

Our gas dollars at work.

No Joe:

What, the Saudi-funded Imams are doing one thing in public and another in private? I'm shocked. Shocked. Next thing you'll tell me is that there is gambling in Casablanca.

Wm Shurmann:

Anyone who compares the corrupt practices of a medieval "church" to modern Islamic practice is an idiot. If you look at Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists and Baptists - not ONE of these organizations advocates killing gays, muslims or jews. (In fact the Jews have found some of their most loyal and admiring supporters in the so-called Christian Right.) Let's talk in 2008, not 1108. We're not asking them to change history. We're asking them to change the present and the future - as the Christian Church did. Learn from your mistakes. Apologise for your failings. Grow, learn and have some compassion on those around you!

Ibrahim Mahfouz:

"Jack Fairweather: Exploring the chasm between what some Muslim religious leaders preach in public and what they preach behind closed doors;"

The above is wapo’s summary of Mr. Fairweather’s post. This is legal according to Muslim jurisprudence. It is called Taqqiyah; a concept that lying and deception is halal(allowable) if that furthers the cause of the religion of Allah i.e. Islam.

pgr88:

HENRY FERRY - what do you know about the crusades? The Reformation? Really? And even if 2% of what you think you know is true, what relevance do events 1000 years ago have on what the Saudis may be doing in our country today?

These WaPo blogs are becoming more and more ridiculous. Please leave your left-wing cliches at the door (Racist! Crusades! KKK! Dick Cheney!) and try and have an adult conversation

Henry Ferry:

TO Robert B.---

What would you think of Christianity during the Crusades? A peaceful religion?

It took hundreds of years for a reformation to come about for Christians, the same thingis happening with Islam. The moderates who worship Islam for what it is, a peaceful religion, will ultimately win out.

The KKK burned crosses in the name of Jesus, remember?

Henry Ferry:

This is from Sarah Palin's pastor in Wasilla:

Pastor Kalnins has also preached that critics of President Bush will be banished to hell; questioned whether people who voted for Sen. John Kerry in 2004 would be accepted to heaven; charged that the 9/11 terrorist attacks and war in Iraq were part of a war "contending for your faith;" and said that Jesus "operated from that position of war mode."

Also said people who criticize Bush are going to hell:

"I hate criticisms towards the President," he said, "because it's like criticisms towards the pastor -- it's almost like, it's not going to get you anywhere, you know, except for hell. That's what it'll get you."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13098.html

DEF:


I wonder what the Saudi's think about the anti-gay anti-Middle East messages being taught behind the closed doors of "faith-based initiative" funded churches in America?

You know, people in glass houses and all that stuff ..

..

Scott Storey:

The corrupt Saudi regime has always been an ally of the United States and despite the fact that the Wahhabi's are extremely sectarian and often racist, the forced expansion of this ideology has served the US government's interests since the Revolution in Iran. For a brief time after 9/11 it was hoped that the US would distance itself from this irrational, unpopular, and murderous ideology, which is kept alive through Saudi and UAE petrodollars. However, this did not happen and I am certain that eventually all of us will pay the price.

PostGlobal is an interactive conversation on global issues moderated by Newsweek International Editor Fareed Zakaria and David Ignatius of The Washington Post. It is produced jointly by Newsweek and washingtonpost.com, as is On Faith, a conversation on religion. Please send us your comments, questions and suggestions.