Comments (55)

It is easier to blame these horrible acts of violence and murder on a religion but the truth is religions are just words used to describe a set of guidelines for a particular lifestyle or way of living. It is people that do the crimes but often times justify their acts by their beliefs. In most cases when you study these religions they actually have good points on how we as human beings should interact with each other. I believe in the bible but I am also mindful that a lot of things have been changed over and over through out history since the beginning of the early church. People use money, religion, politics, beliefs, situations and circumstances as excuses to validate their wrong doing and since misery does love company, often times the more people who join in on these horrible acts the more likely the mission to kill is successful. Half the time when these fanatics kill people, the focus from the public eye is on the lives lost and not even the cause for which the act was committed so truthfully speaking, or typing shall I say, the message never really gets out. It is man's nature to want to be seen as powerful and on top so each group is striving to be "The One" that sets the standards of how everyone else in the world should live. The reality is until we as human beings can come together for the basic necessities in life like making sure everyone in the world has food, water, shelter and clothes on their back, we will always find something to hate about someone else from a different religious, political, financial, or racial background. Everything is about choice. We choose as a people, and that being all humankind, to set these laws, rules and so forth to justify our own agendas either for prestige, power or monetary recognition. The funny thing is, historically these things have been happening for as long as we can trace it back in time. The way the world is today.... I think everything is coming to a head. What that will be, no one knows for sure as to the details of what will happen, but I know one thing. The actions of ignorant folks are starting to affect everyone regardless of where you live.... Dont worry about who believes what and stop trying to force others to believe your way. Live how you are supposed to. If you are a muslim then live according to what the text in the Koran says... use it to do good to fellowmankind and dont take the text out of context based on your own personal beliefs and the same for Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and so forth. Search out your own soul salvation and belief system and live it out to the fullest as long as it doesn't involve hurting someone else because as long as I have been living, no one has ever came back to tell me how it is on the other side of the dirt.....

I should also say that the term 'religion' does not address the fact that Islam includes an economic system, a ruling system, a judicial system, a social system, and so forth.

Its western, capitalist thinking that wants to redefine Islam to meet the perception of the capitalist imperial world rulers. A French Islam? France still has military bases and troops in many countries, including Muslim countries that were once it colonies (eg. Mali, Chad). And now France wants Muslims to redefine Islam to serve its homeland?
What would a selfrespecting, reasonable person say to that?

It so happens that Western powers that follow and have succeeded Roman imperialism and Athenian imperialism also profess Christianity. And Christianity has been their spiritualism as they pursue their material, capitalist desires.

Dr Bottom, if what you say is true about the Egyptian alim, he is apparently making reference to the Day of Judgement wherein there is no lying or litigating about the truth. On that Day, even your body parts will testify for or against you. In that sense, YES, regarding sexual relations, everyone's sexual organs will be either a witness for or against you.

Joet, Islam is more than just a religion. Its often described as a complete way of life. It entails an ideology which includes fundamental thoughts about man, life, the universe, what came before, what comes after, now, the relations therein between them.
Religion does not encapsulate all that is Islam.

And Christianity as practiced in the past 250 years has not been the ideological guidance of the colonial empires, or the warring sides in WWI, WWII, Cold War, PGWI or PGWII, but it has served as part of the beliefs around the capitalist ideology. It has served as a spiritual addition to the capitalist ideology which was the guidance for the colonization period, the conflicts of WWI WWII Cold War, PGWI PGWII and the War on Terror.

Hello Seymour! I wonder if that's the same Egyption cleric who issued a fatwah stating that it's a blessing to drink the Prophet's urine. THOSE WHACKY MUSLIMS! WHAT WILL THEY THINK OF NEXT?

I saw a program last night that quoted a senior Islamic cleric from Egypt when he said that every vagina has a list of the names of men who will eventually have a sexual intercourse with that specific woman, and this includes prositutes who obviously have longer lists, AMAZING ISLAMIC TRIVIA!!!

Omar:
You list a number of bloody historical events in which some countries in the West were involved, such as World War I and II to claim that "their religion" is violent. Hogwash! None of those involved in such disputes acted in the name of their religion. There is nowhere in their Book that incites for war for any reason. It was for nationalistic interest(s).
This should be differentiated from a war that is waged in the name of religion i.e. to spread that religion by force, which is in fact the main foreign policy of your Sharia. Get the point?

Well, Joet. I see your IQ doesn't measure up and you can not simply argue with facts. Instead of the nonsense going round and round, you can make your case, list some historical facts instead of trying to silence opposing views by being an a hole. Keep repeating your baseless accusation till you beieve them but don't blame smart folks for looking through your emotional dilusional and frankly childish logic. Spoken like a true pinhead.

Amjad:
You claim the following and my reply follows each claim.
1. Islam gave women the right to own property.
Women in Arabia had that right before Islam. If anything Islam in effect cancelled that right when it made women wards of their male relatives.
2, Islam abolished slavery in the 7th Century.
Islam never abolished slavery. Slaves are being sold and bought in many Muslim countries till this day.For example, Sudan slave traders are catching them and selling them to whoever want to buy including Human Rights agencies who buy them in order to set them free.
3. Islam gave women the right to choose their husbands.
Are you kidding? Marriage in most Muslim countries is a transaction between the father or brother(s) of the bride and the groom.

Someone said, "The more things change, the more they remain the same." The Western notion of "progress" should be closely examined. Have we really moved away from ignorance, or are we fooling ourselves with toys and gimmics that do little to advance the condition of mankind? Islam explains how to walk through the same satanic minefields that existed a million years ago - it does not pretend to move the traffic along swiftly.

Corey,

The bozos that write accusations of "Christian nations" are unable to tell the difference because, in their world there is no separation of church and state so they just assume the same is true of everywhere else. That, or they know the difference but choose to ignore it for the sake of PC moral equivocation. These are the same sheep who equate the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with Auchwitz, even though, horrible as it was, the atom bomb ended a long and bloody war. Did you ever notice how the list of atrocities never includes things like; Stalin's purges and gulags, Mao's cultural revolution, the Japanese assault on China, in particular the rape of Nanking, or Pol Pot,s killing fields? While I totally agree with your post, don't expect it to make an impression on the folks who see the west and Christianity as the sole source of evil.

Apparently some of the people on here accusing "Christian nations" of committing acts of government don't understand what a secular government is. Christianity didn't cause WWI- imperialism did. Christianity didn't cause WWII- national socialism did. Christianity didn't cause the Cold War- Communism and its opposition to capitalism did. There is a difference, and i thought it was obvious, between an act of war (or otherwise) by a sovereign, secular government and an act done outside of the parameters of international law and, as stated by the perpetrators themselves, because of their religion.

Headscarves and cartoons are Western inspired, global distractions meant to buy the world's rich and elite a little more time.

Usama,

Up until this point I was actually reading your article with a great degree of interest. You made some valid and salient points, especially about the privatization of public works, and the ponderous health care system in America, but all your pontificating is meant to do nothing more than distract from the very real fact that islam is the most crushing force against personal freedom today. This goes hand in hand with your "nanny state" economics, the belief that some elitist authority has to control the people and their lives or they might start thinking for themselves. The cartoons, headscarf, and teddy bear "conflicts" are not western inspired, all get laid at the foot of islam and its need to control the masses. That their is somehow social justice in all of this is a lie. As for the trillions of muslim wealth being returned so the people can rebuild and advance, that is a cop out. The only obstacle to advancement in the islamic world is the 7th century mindset of it's people,the tyrannical oppression of government/religious leaders, and the greed of the few people who control its oil wealth. Stop the self pity and get your own house in order then you can moralize to the west about its economic practices.

REPLY TO AMR, who wrote:
"I am tired of being associated with people like this because they happen to claim they are of the same religion, and the only religion they follow is ignornace and idiocy. Go bury yourself in a hole..."

Amr: As a Protestant, I applaud your approach. My ancestors, to, got fed up with the intellectually and morally bankrupt religious authorities of their day and launched an all-out rebellion against them. Many Protestants and Catholics died in the ensuing struggle. The two sides knew that their very survival depended on their relative success. Fortunately, the rebels--i.e., the Protestants--won enough military battles not only to survive, but to prosper. The Protestant success led to the ultimate triumph of the values that lie at the heart of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. The Protestant success, in other words, led to the modern world. To democracy. To individual liberty and basic civil rights. To those values enshrined in the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

I wish you success in your fight with Muslim dinosaurs. Which Muslim regime do you moderates intend to topple first? Where will you get your arms? Will it be mainly conventional warfare, or will guerrilla warfare also play a part? I assume Mecca will be a priority target?

Best of luck, and please keep us informed.

BTW, Islamic economic theory recognizes these as public property: oil, coal, gas, waterways, roadways, bridges. Also, public or state property include: power plants, chemical plants, major factories.

These changes alter the economic landscape of a society.

While this is is a contentious issue, Islamic law also calls into question the legality of a public corporation. If you are familiar with a publicly owned corporation, it is a legal "person" separate from its founders, its major shareholders, etc. It lives on even when generations of shareholders pass away. It functions as a legal "person" but with none of the inherit characteristics of a natural person: such as a conscience, soul, moral compass, or even competing interests of posterity v. selfishness, humanitarianism v. self preservation, etc.
Moreover, there are serious questions about the legal practices of corporations which are often distinct from proprietorships and partnerships.

If anyone thinks headscarves and cartoons are the most important conflict for the Muslim world they are seriously misinformed.
Islam completely outlaws interest AND it outlaws private finance industries built on interest which serve primarily as greedy middle men profitting from the disparity of societal wealth and continual inflation for the cost of living.

A state controlled central bank directly serving the people is a core practice of an Islamic based society.

All that being said, Islam still supports the natural relations of supply and demand in free trade within these framework.

The West is more concerned about the trillions of Muslim wealth invested in Western interests being withdrawn and returned to the Muslim people so they can rebuild and truly advance.

Headscarves and cartoons are Western inspired, global distractions meant to buy the world's rich and elite a little more time.

Interesting how municipal bonds were raised as an issue regarding Islam and progress. Municipal bonds are a capitalist method of financing government. Incidently, the treasury secretary reported to Congress recently that the subprime mortgage collapse adversely affected the bond industry, throwing into serious doubt whether govt can raise future funds to continue repairs and development of America's infrastructure.

While this may appear as an unintended consequence of greedy subprime brokers, one could also say that there is a major trend occurring over the past 8 years to privatize America's infrastructure. Fortune 100 firms like UPS have given America's infrastructure a C- to a D grade.

Watching closely, the massive finance industry and their consortiums are positioning themselves to 'lease' America's infrastructure: ie. bridges, highways, utilities, etc. and are looking at long term investments of 50-100 year leases. Thus, for a few billion up front, a consortium composed of Merrill Lynch & some European banks will control a particular highway or bridge and extract tolls for 50-70 years. The return on their investment is usually estimated to the 100s of %tages. This may be a coincidence, except Merrill Lynch is also the father company of at least one subprime mortgage firm. A wise politican, I believe Tip ONeill, once said: in politics, there are no coincidences. And this is certainly politics- the affairs of the people.

Ultimately, bonds which accumulate interest are indeed contrary to Islam and contrary to Islamic economic theory. In fact, the Milton Friedman theories of capitalism: privatization, deregulation, globalization, as they pertain to infrastructure are contrary to Islamic economic theory. Bush and the Neo Cons have pushed for greater deregulation and privatization than ever before. America is facing the consequences of privatization of fundamental governance, such as intelligence, military logistics, incarceration, etc. all being privatized. The consequences are numerous. A private/public health industry with little oversight is hemorrhaging 2-3 trillion in waste and fraud a year. Legislation and politics are being crafted by lobbyists to continue & further the longevity and survival of these new industries- ie. 100 year wars, more prisons, more draconian prison sentences, more domestic spying, etc., except to the detriment of the people.

First, what is most striking about Mr. Fairweather's posting is how absolutely vacuous it is. The only equally valid response is, "Where's the beef?"

Once more, Mr. Fairweather takes advantage of a free society's gift--the very existence of this forum and his ability to use it--to spew forth, at best, obfuscation, and--at worst--lies and deceit about a religion that is antithetical to everything this forum represents. Once more, his fellow mush-for-brains multiculturalists gush forth to second his views.

Let me join those who have already introduced cold reality into this nonsense. No one needs to engage in meaningless, abstract arguments about Islam and Christianity. No one needs to come up with meaningless comparisons between the Bible and the Koran.

One only needs to look at the empirical facts that are right before our eyes. Look, on the one hand, and the countries and societies produced under predominantly Christian populations in the West. Look, on the other hand, at the countries and societies produced under Islam. Judge them by:

The freedoms allowed their citizens
Religious freedom
Freedom of expression
Level of democracy
Respect for basic human rights
The ones led by elected leaders, and the fossil regimes still led in the 21st Century by kings, princes, princesses, sultans, sheikhs, emirs, etc., etc.
Status of women.
The ones that grant full legal equality to women and the ones who practice overt discrimination
Gross Domestic Product--and don't cheat by bringing up the irrelevant matter of the small minority of lucky oil-producing Muslim states
The ones with no modern economy at all
Unemployment
Level of education--with a focus on the relative level of men and women
Number of books published annually
Ditto for scholarly works at universities
Ditto for scientific treatises recognized as valid by the international scientific community
University graduates in other than religious studies
Ditto high school graduates

Need I go on? The idea of some equality between Islam and Christianity or any of the world's other great religions is a baldfaced lie. The idea of Islam and progress going hand in hand is a myth.

Why is the space of the WashingtonPost.com given over to such superstitious nonsense, utterly lacking any empirical basis?

Hey, its a peaceful religion

Unfortunately, Islam the religion does not condone the issues that everyone has mentioned.. the degradation of women, the face covering ( not hijab) and the anti-investment behaviors are from ignorant and frankly stupid individuals that think they are doing Islam a favor by associating with it. Islam is a religion for people who are motivated to think, engineer, discover, and move humanity forward by encouraging great ideas and mandating humane treatment to all living things.

The comment about investment bonds being against "the book" is wrong. Show me what Sura in the Quran says I cant invest in improving the infrastructure of the country in which we live? Do you think women driving is " against the book?" How about being educated? Should you bury your new born daughter alive too? I am tired of being associated with people like this because they happen to claim they are of the same religion, and the only religion they follow is ignornace and idiocy. Go bury yourself in a hole...

Muslims can be intelligent intellectuals, who are clean shaven and forward thinking, treat women with respect, and dont have any problems with anyone. My friends and I are members of that group. I hope the readers can keep their hearts open to the possibility of meeting someone like us before they paint us all with the same brush as the idiots who have posted before me.

If your country is populated by people whose philosophy has not advanced past iron aged goat herders how much progress can you make?

Bucinka wrote:

anonymous wrote (and why are you hiding behind anonymous?):

but I can't recall the last time I heard of a famous muslim astrophysicist discovering a new planet. When was the last time a Nobel prize was awarded to a famous muslim for medicine, technology, or science.
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You're basically right. Many of the world's great technological advances, such as the zero, algebra, astronomy, the 60-minute hour and the 60-second minute, and chess, are brought to you by pre-Muslim Arabism. As Bernard Lewis put it in his book "What Went Wrong? Western Impact and Middle East Response," the problem isn't Arabism, it's Islam.

February 28, 2008 1:55 PM

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Buchinka:

Plagiarism constitutes serious misconduct in the academic world. Please make sure to verify the sources of your information before attributing to Islam what Indians did. The Muslims claimed the achievement as their own when they invaded India, passing it on to Europe as Arab Muslim achievement. Most of the achievements you mentioned existed in India and pre-date Islam itself by several centuries!

Before attributing any achievement to Islam please verify the sources of your claim, since Muslims typically claim as their own the pre-Islamic achievement of any country they conquered. Thank you.

Well, MRK

Let's not go too far with the moral equivalence shall we. You seem to have missed what I said entirely. None of the European things you pointed out were done in the name of Christianity. Also that is in the past, while Islam is murdering people right this minute all over the world. And don't even bring Iraq up. More Iraqis have been killed by other Muslims than by anyone else. Does Darfur not matter to you? Is it because the killers are Muslims or the victims are black?

Are you a spoiled middle class Westerner who is so self hating and delusional that you missed the point? Or, are you one of the many confrontational Islamisists that infest this site?

Some posts give Christianity credit for the progress and tolerance prevalent in today's Western societies.

Credit should be given to Western culture for all these positive changes we experience today. These changes happened despite religion, not because of it.

Islam, I believe, much like Christianity is progressive or regressive depending on who interprets it. Western culture surpassed Muslim culture in that it circumscribed the domain of religion; those 'tagged' with Muslim culture have yet to find a way of establishing boundaries for the sacred that are different from the boundaries of the profane.

It is short sighted to compare religions on progress axis. Culture is more apt to be amenable to classification.

>> last time I heard of a famous muslim astrophysicist discovering a new planet

Hundreds of planets are named after Muslims. However the names are agnlasized. Zehra and others.

Also have you never heard of Dr. Abdus Salaam Nobel prize for Physics.

Read all about the complete list on rupeenews.com

Just becuase they don't teach you..it does not mean it does not exist

Joe - so you would not have been afraid to be in Belfast in the 70s and 80s? You would not have been afraid to be in Nagasaki and Hiroshima in 1945? You would have been very comfortable in Rwanda in the mid 1990s, right? You would have been very safe if you were one of the colonized people of the Europeans in the 19th century - I am sure you would have been very comfortable being a black on the west coast of africa from the 16th century to the 19th century...I am sure you would have felt very comfortable during the spanish inquisition just as comfortable or probably more you would have felt if you were a jew in Europe ruled by the Nazis in the 1940s - do you get the point Joe???

Your twisting of the facts and hate speech hiding behind freedom of speech can only fool 3rd graders or people, frankly, at your level.

Judging from that incredibly stupid self serving BS post Omar, the 3rd grade sounds like the 5 best years of your life. Too bad you didn't learn anything like rational logic. Or didn't they teach that at the madrassah? Go back to finger painting.

ISLAM'S CONTRIBUTION TO HUMAN KIND IS SO LITTLE WHEN COMPARED WITH CHRISTIAN - GREEK - CHINESE CULTURES.

THANK GOD TURKEY IS A SECULAR COUNTRY! THE DAY WE WALKED AWAY FROM ISLAM (1930's), THE PROGRESS STARTED!

I ADVICE THE REST OF THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES TO FALLOW ATATURK'S WAY.

of course, the major wars were initiated by christian nations..slavery was glorified by the US of A , Every major genocide ( like that of the american indians in North and south America) was done by christians, more often by idiot greedy missionaries rationalizing these wealth grabs and inhumane cruelties...the record of the western christian nations will probably never be surpassed by people of any other religion.

Let us not even begin the topic of iraq and wmds..america is a joke if not for the cruelty of its politicians and armies and stupidity of its brainwashed people.

The problems of islam pale into insignificance beside these problems...the only issue with islam in my opinion is tolerance of other religions like buddhists/hindus/etc..and even this is not a problem nowadays in nations like india where pretty much the lines are drawn and everyone knows not to step on each other's toes. I mean if the christians had come to india in the mughal times, ALL the hindus now would be dead or be christians.so overall the west should just pick out the beam in its own eye before looking for the mote in islam's..

Islam is the most modern relegion of the world. Islam protected the rights of women and labour classesmore than 1400 years ago. Islam gave the right to women to own property, through getting share in property of father and husband, and it was binding to all men to give share to the women. Islam gave right to women in seventh century to choose her husband. The Holy Prophet, Peace be upon him, advised muslims to get higher education, and if it is necessary, go to China to get that education. What I want to mention is, there is nothing wrong with Islam. Islam is a perfect relegion, the most modern relegion. Americans abolished slavery in 19th century, Islam abolished it in 7th century. Problem is not with Islam, but with the extremist Muslims. And believe me, extremist muslims are very less in numbers. Elections held in Islamic Republic of Pakistan just a week and a half ago, and muslims of Pakistan gave vote to the moderate forces, not to the etrtemists. Extremists are every where, in every relegion, Like Bush a Christian extremist, and Jews and Hindues and other relegions have their own lot of extremists. Please do not target Islam and Muslims, every nation and every relegion have their own extremists. We should fight against all extremists, be it Muslim or Christian or Jew or Hindu.

hmm zero, and the so called "arabic" numerals were actually imported from india by the arab traders and introduced to the west...
There is some truth in saying that any advances during the height of the islamic culture occured in spite of islam rather than being promoted by it...

A religion that has committed WW1, WW2, inquisition, enslavement of Africans and Native Americans is certainly deserving the dubious title of being the cruelest, violent and blood thirsty religion and that is Christianity. Nowadays, the religion committing most genocide and violence in this world is Judaism backed by their Christian backers so there is your rabid dumb logic turned against you and the picture ain't pretty, is it? I am an atheist who turned Muslim after reading the Bible, Torah and about Buddhism. Your twisting of the facts and hate speech hiding behind freedom of speech can only fool 3rd graders or people, frankly, at your level.

the issue is also tolerance of other religions... if the holy book says people of other religions like hindus /buddhists are infidels and should basically have their heads chopped off.. i doubt whether this is really a holy book or something that promotes violence and stealing by giving an excuse for it.

DJ333

You are correct, every religious group has had it's share of violent practitioners. The AUM were not so Hindu, they were their own cult, but let's say I give that to you. So what?

The question is how often is this or that religion violent. For every act of Christian, Jewish, or Bhuddist violence, done in the name of that religion there are Hundreds of violent acts done in the name of Islam. Further, the bad things done by Christians and Jews and Bhuddists are pretty long ago. Those religions evolved out of the middle ages long ago. Islam did not. Islam is murdering, raping and pillaging today, everyday. Care to debate that? Then look at Darfur and shut up. Islam is the same brutal religion as has always been. That is the problem.

I am not worried about flying with Mormons. I am not worried about Bahai terrorists. I have not seen any Amish head-chop videos. You get my point?

Many of the problems in extreme Islam seem to be identical to the problems in radical Christianity and Judaism: withdrawal from a world that is found to be troubling into a mythic idea of a purer biblical past. If you look at history, these reactions tend to be cyclical, and are more likely to show up when a people feels powerless and humiliated (look at the Jewish reactions the the European ghettos). That's why people suggest that "humiliation" is a cause of religious violence. Look at the Christian abortion clinic bombers - they feel that society has given up on justice and they must right these wrongs themselves. Look at the right-wing Jews who murdered their own Prime Minister in Israel. They felt that the state had sold them out to their enemy, and they were all alone.

The only way to fight these cycles is to give power to those people who are on their way to that point, but haven't yet set themselves fully on the road to Hell. Those who have are probably lost. You can't resolve all religious violence that way - extreme Christians in America always feel weak no matter how much real power they have - but it's about the only thing historically proven likely to help.

That or outlaw religion once and for all ;)

Actually, there have been a number of hindu "terrorist" actions against mosques and muslims in India, and the Aum terrorists who set off the nerve gas in the Tokyo subway were Buddhists (I have one of their books, and the front plate photo is of their leader arm in arm with His Holiness the Dali Lama.) Book religions (IslamoJudeoChristianity) might be the most likely to spawn murderous individual violence, but they don't have a monopoly on it.

Anything can be perverted into an excuse to hate, which is why the idea that "X is a violent religion (and we aren't)" is such a dangerous idea to the person holding it.

Ibrahim I agree there has to be some constitutional changes in these countries but I believe the worldview is not all based on Quran or at least not correctly based on Quran.People quite frequently quote the Quran ordering killing non muslims. But quran also spoke of taking care of poor, orphans,and that to kill one person is as if you killed the humanity. Problem is that we have religious demagogues who use divisive thinking and consider anything western as taking their identity away even though I find so many things in US which are in no way any different to Islamic teachings.we need people who understand that this hatred is not solely related to religion.In India in 19th century when a religious leader Syed Ahmed khan said to people we need to advance in science and get knowledge from Western society there was a rift immediatly between people who followed him and people who considered it as an attack on ISlam and Islamic identity, that rift has continued uptil now and now come to a boiling point.There is no simple solution to it and unfortunately both in west and in Muslim countries people with extreme positions are getting more attention. lets hope we can understand each other better.

Ahmad:
You say: “Muslim world is multifactor, it is economic, it is with sense of humiliation, it is about having corrupt leadereship,it is about lack of education, it is about rigid view of Islam promoted by demagogues.”

All those shortcomings are caused by the mindset of the people living in the predominantly Muslim countries. That mindset is derived from their collective worldview. Their worldview in turn is derived mainly from the Quran and Hadith, since, as you well know, those besides being books of religion are also the main source of their constitutions. In some cases they are the Constitution, as in Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and North Nigeria.
A first step for Muslims to do in order to get out of the rut they are in is to separate the Mosque from the State, and compose new constitutions that will be suitable for people living in the 21st Century. Off course that will meet with stiff resistance from those who benefit from the present state of affairs, but the process should be started, and today before tomorrow.

What is it about an essay on religion that predictably brings out the worst in us? This isn't a clash of civilizations. It is a clash between people of like minds.

An American,

If you hate Islam so much why do you bother invading Muslim countries? why not leave Iraq?

Why not let them wallow in their misery? Why do you want their oil? Why do you care?

That is a very sick view of progress and flase represnetation of Islam and its teachings. Due to Jihadists and terorrists attack and violance, the loss of lives and property since 9/11 in Pakistan may only be second to U.S. and Iraq. I believe the Jihadists agenda has little to do with the teachings of Islam, and is more in political agenda of the leaders of extreemists and fundamentalists sect of so the called Islamists or Jihadists . After 1980 "conquest" of Afghanistan or so called "defeat" of U.S.S.R there are several groups of misguided people and of quite a few leaders of this movement, out to destroy western influence in Pakistan,Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia . Iraq has become part of that lists after 2003 U.S . attack on Iraq. The leaders of thess countries have to be united to defeat the Jihadists. Pakistan is in big trouble . Let us pray and do something.

Problem is not arabism,its not Islam, its not west either its about mankind. We have all kind of people in this world whether they are muslims,jews or christians.Every religion is distorted by some of its followers and most people in this world are ready to take simple explanations of problems they face in their lives or in this world. Once you say problem is with Islam, or problem is with west that closes the argument and the thinknig process.Problem in muslim world is multifactorial, it is economic,it is with sense of humiliation, it is about having corrupt leadreship,it is about lack of education, it is about rigid view of Islam promoted by demagogues.In west it is about sense of superiority,it is about calling themselves civil but fighting some of the worst wars of last century. So called secular countries have not been able to bring peace to world either US has been involved in most wars and invasion during last century for one reason or the other.

Thank you joet, I will try that one next. I travel a lot so I have plenty of time on planes to read. (BTW, I agree with you, as does Lewis, about the 7th century blood cult part.)

Bucinka:

I almost forgot, if you liked,"What Went Wrong? Western Impact and Middle East Response," I would recommend "A World Lit Only By Fire" by William Manchester. It provides the perspective from medieval europe.

Bucinka,

Thank you you made my point, I am aquainted with Mr. Lewis's book and am aware of the contributions arabs have made to mathematics and science. My conflict is with a 7th century blood cult that is bent on world domination and the supression of human progress. While I realize a lot of the worlds problems can be laid at the feet of religion in one form or another, it seems obvious that islam is the worst example of fundamentalism and extremism. Can there be an enlightened islamic "reformation"? I don't know, but I do know that we are going to be knocking heads with these folks for a while unless we want to give them their caliphate.

I wasn't hiding behind 'anonymous' I just forgot to add my handle.

Actually Mohammed Yunus shared the Nobel Peace prize with Grameen Bank. I sure it was treated in the islamic world much the same as when Shirin Ebadi won it in 2003. At that time President Khatami of Iran dimissed her accomplishment as; "not important and is political". This pretty much sums up islams dedication to human progress. A very few brave souls do not excuse the fact that islams biggest contribution to the dialogue of 21st century humanity is the suicide bomber. Islam has sunk violent depravity and human degradation to a new low and it hasn't bottomed out yet.

There needs to be a wall between government and religion. However, the value of justice for all humankind needs to be encoded in the laws and practices of all governments.

anonymous wrote (and why are you hiding behind anonymous?):

but I can't recall the last time I heard of a famous muslim astrophysicist discovering a new planet. When was the last time a Nobel prize was awarded to a famous muslim for medicine, technology, or science.
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You're basically right. Many of the world's great technological advances, such as the zero, algebra, astronomy, the 60-minute hour and the 60-second minute, and chess, are brought to you by pre-Muslim Arabism. As Bernard Lewis put it in his book "What Went Wrong? Western Impact and Middle East Response," the problem isn't Arabism, it's Islam.

I am getting tired of the whitewashing of the barbarians and troglodytes of Islam. It is brutal towards women, backwards intellectually and creates nothing but destroyed lives and suffering globally.

Enough already. Jihad is not some peaceful inner struggle. It certainly does not mean that to a group like Islamic Jihad for instance.

Enough already. The atheists and the leftists here will go on and on about the harsh verses in the Bible, but they have never read the even more harsh verses in the Koran. When it says that "Christians and Jews must be subjected and made to feel subjected," what do you think that means? More to the point, the vast majority of Muslims in the world believe this - without the apologetics of a Saudi funded (perpetually in trouble for terrorist connections) group like CAIR.

Enough already. These people dance in the streets with body parts and hand out sweets when Westerners are murdered.

Enough already. Islam is committing genocide in Darfur. Remember that? Darfur? This is a real honest to God, genocide being carried out by Muslims and yet we get this whitewash?

Enough already. Sharia means public decapitation and dismemberment. It means lashes for rape victims and it even means witch trials. Seriously, a witch trial happened this month in Saudi Arabia. Look it up. The story was carried by the AP.

Enough already. A caliphate is not a democracy. Do not think for a moment that they are pro democratic.

Enough already. They do not tolerate us. They do not want peace. They want dominance. They do not even tolerate cartoons, let alone free speech. Why should we tolerate their evil, misogynistic, backwards and brutal ways?

Enough Already. Enough Already.

That "religion" does not deserve the respect or tolerance of the West - not until it's practitioners learn to live like civilized people.

I am getting tired of the whitewashing of the barbarians and troglodytes of Islam. It is brutal towards women, backwards intellectually and creates nothing but destroyed lives and suffering globally.

Enough already. Jihad is not some peacful inner struggle. It certainly does not mean that to a group like Islamic Jihad for instance.

Enough already. The atheists and the leftists here will go on and on about the harsh verses in the Bible, but they have never read the even more harsh verses in the Koran. When it says that "Christians and Jews must be subjected and made to feel subjected," what do you think that means? More to the point, the vast majority of Muslims in the world believe this - without the apologetics of a Saudi funded (perpetually in trouble for terrorist connections) group like CAIR.

Enough already. These people dance in the streets with body parts and hand out sweets when Westerners are murdered.

Enough already. Islam is committing genocide in Darfur. Remember that? Darfur? This is a real honest to God, genocide being carried out by Muslims and yet we get this whitewash?

Enough already. Sharia means public decapitation and dismemberment. It means lashes for rape victims and it even means witch trials. Seriously, a witch trial happened this month in Saudi Arabia. Look it up. The story was carried by the AP.

Enough already. A caliphate is not a democracy. Do not think for a moment that they are pro democratic.

Enough already. They do not tolerate us. They do not want peace. They want dominance. They do not even tolerate cartoons, let alone free speech. Why should we tolerate their evil, misogynistic, backwards and brutal ways?

Enough Already. Enough Already.

"There are no advanced muslim countries. There are plenty of muslim countries who have benefitted from the science, technology, and human progress of the west, but I can't recall the last time I heard of a famous muslim astrophysicist discovering a new planet. When was the last time a Nobel prize was awarded to a famous muslim for medicine, technology, or science. While there may be poor countries of all faiths, I never heard of extremist hindus or buddhists crashing airplanes into buildings, and bombing trains in the name of their religion."

That statement proves nothing more than ignorance with regard to muslims' contributions to those fields. And just because you don't hear about extremists of other faiths does not mean they don't exist. Lastly, while it may not have been in the fields you mention, I believe the founder of the Grameen Bank is muslim, and he won a Nobel recently, no?

btw, I am writing from the ARab Gulf, so pls don't tell me there are no advanced Muslim countries!

There are no advanced muslim countries. There are plenty of muslim countries who have benefitted from the science, technology, and human progress of the west, but I can't recall the last time I heard of a famous muslim astrophysicist discovering a new planet. When was the last time a Nobel prize was awarded to a famous muslim for medicine, technology, or science. While there may be poor countries of all faiths, I never heard of extremist hindus or buddhists crashing airplanes into buildings, and bombing trains in the name of their religion. Think about it.

Progress is not what comes to mind with AFghanistan. But, why do people always involve Islam when contemplating an ARab country's progress or stagnation? There are many examples of rich and poor countries of all faith.

What does Islam have to do with this?

btw, I am writing from the ARab Gulf, so pls don't tell me there are no advanced Muslim countries!

Just pray to your god for your bills to be paid with one hand and crap in the other and see which one fills up first.