hi G,

why do you have to use such extremes as examples.

consider this: sweden is a social democracy. canada is as well.

canadian govt involved itself much more then, than now. BUT the difference between then and now is canada has the infrastructure in place to maintain. venezuela needs to build that infrastructure. it cannot be done within a few years or without spending money.

any country which wishes to attain the type of social democracy which is enjoyed by countries such as canada or sweden, has to pull itself up to certain minimal standards. for venezuela, that means a continued pulling up of the poorest.

education and healthcare have seen improvements but still have a way to go. when those standards have been achieved coupled with regulations on capitalism, only then can the country thrive.

what we are witnessing (oil exec's collecting $400,000,000 bonuses while soup kitchen lineups grow etc ) is proof that full-blown capitalism is as successful as soviet style communism.
capitalism cannot succeed without an overhaul.

for anyone who disagrees with this sentiment, you need to travel the world a little more. and when i suggest travel, i don't mean to a club med resort in the caribbean.

Entonces Pancho

Are you really content to live under this socialist – wannabe communist – Chavez?
You allude to the poor faring better in a socialist or communist system over free capitalism.
Where is your proof, what nations will you hold up as an example to match your propaganda? The Castro Bros., N. Korea, Putin, China.

I agree,” Unregulated Capitalism” can be harsh at times, however it is not comfortable in them, where as Socialisms elite are quite relaxed in their legalized brutalities.

Isben,
Suenas totalmente preocupado de la situacion. Eres de descendencia Cubano?

First of all, you make generalizations with sensalization. The economy of Venezuela is more beneficial to the USA and the value of the dollar being lowered is a failed attempt to increase the price of goods and services in exports. This helps MNCs but hurts international travelers at microeconomic level. Harvard Business Review in March 2008 has a great article about how local markets are keeping MNCs at bay. READ IT! Por favor.

Secondly, our economy has been mixed with the global economy and rather than recruit, retain, and empower the talent pool of human capital, I have seen the marginalization from MNCs in marketing, operations, and even distribution. This has attributed to poor planning, especially strategic planning.

Thirdly, Venezuela is doing what they can innovatively to separate themselves from the West b/c of current military operations/paradigm of our foreign representation & cultural congruence skewing towards Anglo-Caucasian interests. If our Hispanics in the USA had more representation, then Chavez would have no choice but to stop his anti-Bush (not always anti-US) rhetoric. Not that I support either, but hey, the fact is, we started it. Venezuelans remember how we helped them during Natural Disasters in the 1990s and then abandoned them for military ops in the Middle-East; so they saught an ally in China and Iran to remind us of the Monroe Doctrine. If we choose to forget, they'll continue to exploit the situation and seek relations and support from outside our shared Western Hemisphere.

v/r
Rafa

@ Pancho:

You said: "You could get behind the many positive aspects of the changes that are taking place in Venezuela and report something besides the bad news"

===============================

Perhaps you could tell that to the six mothers that yesterday lost their children at the main maternity ward in Caracas because of lack of equipment and minimum conditions that a hospital should have. Meanwhile the government spent 6 billion dollars in military equipment and gives away hundreds of millions of dollars to other countries.

Or maybe you could go and tell one of the thousands of Venezuelans who lost their jobs because they committed the unthinkable offense of voting against Chavez in the 2004 referendum. Or what about to tell the millions who for the same reason saw their names blacklisted and as a consequence were denied passports, pensions, possibility of working in government positions, etc.

Or maybe you could go and tell the millions of Venezuelans that have to stand in line for hours to buy milk, bread, chicken, meat or toilette paper... that is, provided they are lucky enough to find those basic staples on the first place.

Or perhaps you could go and tell the families of the 15000 Venezuelans that last year lost their life to crime on the streets.

Yes, please, do go and tell those people they should focus on the positive changes that are taking place in Venezuela.

here's a brilliant example of media dishonesty through omission.

while this story is circulating throughout other reputable media sources, i searched and found absolutely no reference of it on the WASHINGTON POST's website.

read the story and tell me this isn't huge news...

NEW YORKER: ABU GHRAIB ABUSES WERE 'DE FACTO U.S. POLICY'

Sabrina Harmon became famous as the attractive, young army reservist who ended up in Abu Ghraib posing in photos with dead torture victims. Harmon and fellow U.S. military personnel were charged with numerous counts of humiliating and abusive treatment of Iraqi detainees, though few were convicted.

In the latest issue of the New Yorker, Harmon attempts redemption by giving tell-all interviews, which can be seen in a series of videos.

Charges against her, related to the al-Jamadi photographs were thrown out, as were the charges against the CIA interrogator (torturer) who caused the death of the victim.

Torture victims were incinerated in ovens !!

read the full story here:
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/New_Yorker_Abu_Ghraib_abuses_were_0317.html

watch the video interview here:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/2008/03/24/abughraib

then tell me how the WASHINGTON POST could have missed this story?

Why don't you ever have anything good to say about your country? Very few Americans care anything about Venezuela anyway so you seem to be spewing to the anti-Chavez types that read english, so what?
You could get behind the many positive aspects of the changes that are taking place in Venezuela and report something besides the bad news. Your history shows what happens when the wealthy elites have their way, do you want to go back to the 'good old days' when the oil money went out of the country or would you like to help improve the future for all of your countrymen? Do something positive, don't just snipe from the sidelines!

note. last line should read:

BOBL hits the point. exactly. according to his opposition (which includes the US admin/media), chavez is evil. he eats babies. he's a gorilla (a racist statement), a thug, a dictator...

but don't stop that oil !!

what needs to rise from the polarization which has generated so much angry blood in VZLA are new, young, more moderate leaders.

in canada there has been an ebb and flow of govt spending. for a time, a more social democratic party will rule, spend, set up programmes and eventually depart. to be replaced by a more conservative party which tightens belts. but the country benefits from those programmes and the conservatives know it, even though they rail and then cut back.

as a canadian i see spending money (sometimes responsibly, sometimes not) as taking risks, having vision and paying off. not everything works. initiate 10 things and 4 succeed. much like an entrepreneur.

i see what chavez is doing as attempting to dig the country out of being a petrostate. there are risks and failures and sacrifice and pain. and typically the investments do not pay off immediately.

before chavez there were no risks taken. it was a status quo with the vast majority of the people excluded. it was wrong and the reason a guy like chavez is so popular.

chavez has been given a mandate and two terms. his referendum failed (which was his own fault and i am satisfied how it came out). it doesn't mean he should leave. he still has years to do what he was elected to do. he needs time to put a lot of things together. he has and is going to make mistakes.

the opposition needs to do their job, but that doesn't include trying to shut down the country's oil industry, coups, hurling endless untrue accusations or having the media endlessly distort. which by the way, the kind of crap that came out of RCTV and GLOBOVISION would have been shut down in the US in a heartbeat and tossed in a hole for treason.

some behaviour of chavez is without a doubt: inappropriate, divisive and not productive. but there is no question all of this is true for the opposition as well.

we all KNOW the lies that can be spread by the US media...
- iraq troops laying newborns on hospital floors in kuwait
- saving private jessica
- wmd's in iraq
- florida recount
- questioning kerry's service in viet nam
- then NOT questioning bush's service in viet nam
just to name a few

its amazing the volume of accusations and stories which have been circulated in the VLZA media, by the opposition and US media which were baseless, utterly false or misrepresented. so i am not quick to accept everything i am told, as truth.

and BOBL hits my on the head: chavez is evil. he eats babies. he's a gorilla (a racist statement), a thug, a dictator... but don't stop that oil !!

Are you kidding me? If you think for one nano second that a US recession will slow down the amount of oil the US buys from your country you could be accused of bordering on clueless. Not only won't it slow down the price has gone up and your country will just rake in more petrodallars to buy more jets, guns and Audi's. All I really took away from your post is you know how to whine.

I am venezuela as Mr Martinez. The problem is that a lot of politicians in Europe and South America belive that the venezuelan "revolution" is benefit the people and that poor meaning good and rich evil. The world is simple and in black and white; there is no intermediate colors.
Rafael Rodriguez

i've reviewed the thread and just in case there is misunderstanding, it must be said that these comments are not about hating americans. there has never been a greater disparity between the government and the american people, than now.

what is happening in the world is no longer really about countries. its about the unscrupulous wealthy who do whatever it takes to profit. it really isn't america vs venezuela. it is the uber rich vs the other 95% of the planet.

US foreign policy has acted on behalf of those in need, but all too often it acts in the interests of large multi-national corporations. while overworked americans (and the rest of us too) are too exhausted trying to stay out of debt, the governments who are supposed to represent us, don't.

RCTV or the WASHINGTON POST or FOX NEWS or many other corporate media owned by these corporations. by omission or information manipulation, these media sources are dishonest.

whether it is ignoring sibel edmonds, the degradation of our environment news on "operation pliers", 4000 iraq vets committing suicide a year, the massacre of fallujah or by aping the US administration with the drumbeat to war, we are being manipulated.

and as it would appear, some of us are not yet aware of this.

"its a conclusion."

Well, that's got me convinced.

"i'm talking about america."

No kidding.

"chavez was imprisoned."

And... ?

"chavez was elected by a margin bush could only dream of."

Which suggests that said election was not truly competitive. If you make a list of leaders who win 'elections' by very large margins, you'll find that it coincides very neatly with the list of countries that have hollow, illeberal democracies. Elections in healthy, liberal democracies tend to be won by comparatively small margins. In the United States, winning 60% of the vote is deemed a 'landslide victory.'

All of which is to suggest that Hugo's conspicuously large margins of victory are not something you should brag about. Rather, they're a highly suspicious phenomenon that demand explanation. EU election observers refuse to participate in oversight in Venezuela. How many press outlets has Hugo closed? How many protesters have been brutalized by the National Guard? How many opposition leaders imprisoned? Oh, but those were all agents of the Evil Empire, right? The would have stood in the way of the Bolivarian Revolution, which we all know is more important than individual rights, or liberalism, or democracy. The priority is to attack the class enemy and The Empire.

"i'm from canada. i don't live in canada."

And yet you write about Canada ('we have socialized medicine.') as if you still live there. So don't blame me for getting the wrong idea.

"the country i live in actually DOES benefit from chavez' policies."

Which country and how so? Or have we exhausted your will to forward relevant comments?

"canada evolved like any other country."

And... ?

"canada has also been bullied by the US."

And... ?

"canada is not a petrostate."

Yes, that's what I just said. It's a salient reason why Canada is not a relevant country to compare to Venezuela.

"given the opportunity, it appears chavez is attempting to diversify the VZLA economy. "

As evidenced by what? The under-investment in oil infrastructure? In fact, the lunatic exchange-rate policy Hugo pursues is a huge hand-out to importers, and so has decimated Venezuelan production. After all, why produce anything internally when the spigot of oil dollars is being used to subsidize foreign imports? I'm sure he SAYS he wants to diversify the economy (what else is he going to say?), but the actions don't measure up. Granted, it may simply be because his grasp of economics is so skewed that he thinks his policies will have that effect, but it seems much more likely that he simply has no incentive to diversify. After all, in a petrostate, the entire national economy is simply a tap that flows directly into his pocket. Why mess with that by creating independent centers of economic power?

"do you actually think america has a good relationship with everyone but cuba and VZLA?!"

I said that we get along. That doesn't mean every relationship is great, but it does mean that there is no "relentless assault" on every nation in the hemisphere. If you can't respond to that without putting words in my mouth and slandering my nationality, I suggest you not respond at all.

briefly:

its a conclusion.

i'm talking about america. chavez was imprisoned. chavez was elected by a margin bush could only dream of.

i'm from canada. i don't live in canada. the country i live in actually DOES benefit from chavez' policies.

canada evolved like any other country. canada has also been bullied by the US. canada is not a petrostate. given the opportunity, it appears chavez is attempting to diversify the VZLA economy.

do you actually think america has a good relationship with everyone but cuba and VZLA?! you must be american.

look here and count the number of central/south american countries on the list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_sponsored_regime_change

just because someone doesn't tell you they don't like you to your face, doesn't mean they don't.

"no one will ever convince me that the US is NOT meddling in venezuela's affairs;"

In which case, one has to question whether that statement is a premise rather than a conclusion.

"instantly recognizing a military overthrow of a democratically elected leader?? that in itself illustrates how america feels about chavez."

Oh? Then what does the fact that Chavez himself attempted a military overthrow of a democratically elected leader illustrate about how Chavez feels about democracy?

"i think one of the reasons why i empathize with chavez is am from canada."

Which is to say that none of his policies have any effect on you one way or the other, and so you're free to employ him simply as a screen for projecting your pet issues about American hegemony, socialism, etc. (like pretty much everyone else on WaPo, or in the West for that matter).

"we have a health care system that works and plenty of government involvement in everything from public housing to education to services. it is possible."

Except that Canada is not a petrostate, nor does it have an illustrious history of endemic corruption and inefficiency. Nor is it run by a power-mad nut bent on subverting Democracy and antagonizing its neighbors. And then there's the differences in inequality, per capita income, etc...

"but unfortunately, chavez has huge vulture on his back."

Right, because it's American disapprobrium that prevents Chavez's economically-unsound policies from working, and causes corruption in the beaurocracy there. Never mind the fact that most of the money funding said government comes from the United States...

"this relentless assault on any central/south american country that leans left to any degree by the US, has got to stop. "

Don't be silly: EVERY country in central and south America leans left, and the only ones that don't get along with America are Venezuela and Cuba, both of whom have made anti-Americanism a central component of their politics and rhetoric. The Cold War is over, and nobody really gives a hoot if Latin countries want socialized medicine or subsidies. The fact is that Chavez needs a boogie-man to sustain his political discourse and distract people, and there is no better boogie-man than the Untied States.

these are indeed some of my sources. how magical that you can, instantly dismiss them and me as someone with no common sense. i'd provide you with many other sources, but alas, you'd wave your hand, and dismiss those as well.

the thing to note is we are — in a way — discussing two different topics.

no one will ever convince me that the US is NOT meddling in venezuela's affairs; making it more and more difficult to conduct government business. obviously internal opposition is the point of it, but come on... instantly recognizing a military overthrow of a democratically elected leader?? that in itself illustrates how america feels about chavez.

your point of chavez being heavy-handed, bellicose and making mistakes with spending, i do not entirely disagree. but my point affects your point.

i think one of the reasons why i empathize with chavez is am from canada. we have a health care system that works and plenty of government involvement in everything from public housing to education to services. it is possible.

but unfortunately, chavez has huge vulture on his back. this relentless assault on any central/south american country that leans left to any degree by the US, has got to stop.

@Robby Breadner:

MathabaNews.net? VenezuelaAnalysis.com? Eva Gollinger? Those are your sources? Common Robby, do you expect anyone with an ounce of common sense to take you seriously?

What is next? Talk about what happens in China using Xinhua or about what Castro has done to Cuba using Granma?

ROBBY BREADNER:

Event though i do not share your same views, in fact in disagree with you on most of your statements about Venezuela and as we locally call him the HDP of Sabaneta... I find disturbing that your comments are being censored. i hope is just a mistake, other wise i find it very similar to what Chavez did to RCTV and what is doing to Globovision, Printed news papers (most sound case is 'el diario del caroni') and many am and fm radio stations.

i noticed you chose NOT to post my most recent set of comments.

denying me the right to post comments makes my point, completely. thank you.

and its too bad i cannot comment on raphael, who makes some excellent point i agree with, but alas, its too dangerous to allow real dissenting views, isn't it?

Sorry all for my spelling (running to catch a flight as I wrote)...Just realized that I've got a little more time than I though a few moments ago.

My two points were....

1.-The Chavez administration is causing great damage to Venezuela. Mismanagement, unsustainable weakening policies....and confusing investment for free funds for all...Also,

2.- its internal workings (corruption, inefficiencies, etc.) argue fiercely against any real interest in a true interest in the well being of the poor.

Never ever before so much demagoguery....

Its amazing... and a pity.

None of what a well meaning liberal would want to see develop in a resource rich country, plagued by years and years of bad government, is true. They spend tons of money making you believe that it is though. A lots of money. On US based researchers, publicists and PR people, writers, etc.

And, going back to Ibsen's writing: if the US dual implosion of 2 bubbles, the credit and residential, spill over into other countries, there is chance (read Oppenheimer -the investment bank- accounts) that oil might some time soon dip down into the low $70's high 60's. a Couple of months of that and the fragility I speak about will surely unravel.

Rafael

Couple of things....

the fragility that has been building up, or rather the deterioration that I mentioned is precisely because there is no NEW investment.... Investments in Venezuela, both private and Governmental are down in pretty much every way you can count them. They are down vs. GDP, they are down in real terms, they are down Vs. Per capita GDP (Boy are they down when counted vs per capita GDP)... Also, part of the deterioration I refer to is mixed into the corruption issue. Corruption has always existed in Venezuela before, no doubt. Now its so unsettling one can only feel amused (?). Amused? Yes. Corruption is bigger, not just in absolute terms but proportional to Venezuela's new income (oil at $100 plus- market induced) and new "redistribution to the poor." Since there is no accounting and no overseeing of anything (I am not making that up) every expenditure is put in charge or, a brother, a cousin, a friend of a friend who by the way has no expertise on that matter...but hey, so what, there is enough money to pay for those "little" ungoverned inefficiencies. Over lunch today we were calculating what the country looses (as in never goes into the hands of the poor, and definitively not invested...) with its estimated US $ 4.5bb plan to sell structured notes to private banks so that they in turn can sell cheap dollars into the "legalized" (no its not a black market....read the legislation..its been legalized for the richer Venezuelans through bond swaps since december 2006)...well the number approaches US $1 billion US. So bankers (and believe you me when I see they are the same old same old bankers, only that now enjoy new partners, some new government related officials) that end up with 20% plus of the money intended to control that legalized parallel market. There are perhaps 5 o 6 six open and much more efficient mechanisms for controlling the price of the parallel exchange market and they choose, as in everything else that most covert and ambiguous... And who do you think that gets to find the oil rigs PDVSA (Venezuelan oil company so desperately needs)... Some of the same guys that where behind all the dirty "free market" dealings oh, 20 and 30 years ago....and supported the injustices and inequities that Chavez supposedly is against. only that the numbers are grotesque.

Billion of dollars are siphoned away every month into accounts i Monaco, and Taiwan.... billions.
Mercal and PDval, the two government programs that are supposed to redistribute some of the wealth by subsidizing cheap food stuffs... They sell at 25% bellow real costs.... when the merchandise they sell are not THAT expensive. How do you think, for example, that Venezuela is now the only country in the world that can import Beef from Argentina. Argentina government recently banned all export of meats to lower the price of beef for local Argentinas.... But...well, Chavez, et. al, are the only ones the Argentina government will approve and stamp "OK" on the export form.... Now where do you think that beef ends up. At the most expensive Supermarkets in Caracas. Those located at the South east of the city, that serve the wealthiest Venezuelans and -here it gets better- at even higher prices!!!!! Wait? Why? Well, because the people that import the beef for the government programs sell most of that beef to the highest bidder. not possible? there must be some accounting showing the beef actually was sold to the poor through MERCAL and PDVAL. Sorry, no such luck. Those "boliburgeses" are there to make a buck. unsupervised. And by the way they are the cousins, brothers and sisters of the same other people that are helping to money lander the millions that other Chavistas are also making..so telling on anyone is a sure way to get yourself in deep trouble. Mr. Kauffman in Miami.

Anybody ever read "Animal Farm?" Well, lets just say its not exactly the pigs that are making good this time around. The humans (ex-elites in power) have also learned to do the "Cumbia del llano" or whatever the heck it is these people do.

Its a facade people! Do not waist your time seeking for good will, equality inspired and lets save the poor in the Bolivarian Revolution.

And as i said before, this will end really really bad. And guess who's going to take the brunt of it....

Investment? its as its always been back in Venezuela. Like the Roman Emperors used to say and we still do in this land of riches "Pan y Circo."

The entire economy is subsidized directly or indirectly by the government. Imports.... at a discounted exchanged rate. So that the sector of the economy that has growth the most, import and distribution (retail) and all the work that goes into retail (merchandising, marketing, PR, etc., etc.) is subsidized....

Government institutions have hired 2, 3 and at some institutions such as "El institutto Nacional de Canalizaciones" 16 times as many employees as required (by the standards set before by previous also clientelistic and inefficient regimes).... so that part of that strangely and conveniently defined employment figures are actually also subsidized. Construction is growing BIG.... All those elites that want Chavez out are there back at work, constructing the heck out of their employees and capital.... pretty buildings for the middle calls (Woooopsss., none for the poor mind you, I mean very very little even in real numbers, less than ever before...Oh...And remember there is the per capita issue to deal with....from 5 plus million population in 1960's to almost 30 million today!!!!).... And why..well because the government requires banks to lend at very discounted rates when its for residential mortgages.... at 40% the rate or regular consumer and business loans...that is to say 12 and 14% for mortgages and then 32% for consumer loans... And how do you think that banks can afford that? Well government bonds off course!. (And you would think somebody has learned something by now).

So the bankers, and there you have another huge part of the recent GDP growth (remember I said same old bankers with a couple of new characters from the left), are also subsidized... plus they get to make some extra cash in the structured note deals too.

No, no Real investment anywhere. Measure it however you will.

Its a huge LIE. And I am really sorry for it. this is one amazing little country whose people really needed that dream to come true.

finally, might I add, that the "pie" is not always the same size. that's the whole point. REAL GDP growth means that there is more fore everybody. Well thought out policies and institutions, more investment, both private and from the government, if well guided are meant to grow the pie. That's not to take the redistribution question of the table. But no, history has proven many many times over, that no government is able to manage and entire economy. Its too complicated. Thats why no matter how much regulation is indeed justified, markets have a role in setting prices, and making sure (lets just say helping) good ideas and good effort to be matched with enough capital. Thats one of the more important ways you make the pie grow, and benefit everybody.

Taking wads of bills and giving them out does not help. Not in a country with the demographic characteristics of Venezuela. And now those elites have been scared, are leaving (seek out Westonzuela in Miami), or talk to the Australian and Canadian embassies here...they are making good in picking up young entrepreneurs and educated professionals that are very willing to leave the country for security and the promise of better livelihoods... Brain drain in pretty amazing numbers.... elites? no! Sons and daughters of the middle now disfranchised class... many Freeking out, seeking greener (for them breathable pastures). Can you fathom the long term consequences of that.

PDVSA is not investing either. Doesn't have the money to do so. no kidding. yes foreign reserves at are $30 bb and FONDEN (Venezuelan investment fund) is over $40bb by some accounts (no clear nor public accounting here), but there is less money flowing to many sectors....

Now...should you believe me? No. I am short Venezuelan bonds and making good money thank you. just wait a while. When you read about the apparently amazing implosion of the Venezuela economy, when you hear most of the population has violently turned against Chavez and are hungry and desperate (all over again)... That, then should be proof enough. I just know good sources. its my business and in my clear interest to know where I tread.

Regards all.

Robby Breadner, thank you for the panoramic information that allows one to put this Ibsen article into perspective. We need many angles on these. I forwarded your concise and precise info to the corresponding writers/journalists in case they need a clear succint uptodate on the Vzla, US, Washington Post link. Keep it up.

ROBBY,

Please stop the gray propaganda, it is not new and we are very aware of that. in relation to this article i also found this link http://www.handsonvenezuela.org/archives/2008/03/25/index.html#e2008-03-25T13_56_39.txt

ROBBY also:
Te invito a que vengas a Venezuela y pases 12 meses viviendo aqui para qeu veas que tan bonita el la revolucion del HDP de miraflores.

i urge people to take a moment and read this article which details the efforts of the US to destroy Venezuela's Bolvarian Revolution.

this essay brings in information from the well researched book by Eva Goliger's BUSH VS CHAVEZ but goes further by bringing to light many facts of the 3-prong assault perpetrated against Chavez and his present government.

these 3 methods of attack from the US are:

1. financial
2. diplomatic
3. military

here are just a few tasty facts from this essay i'll bet you didn't know...

financial...
the NET and USAID have been pouring millions $ into opposition parties in venezuela, funding student groups. some of these groups were directly involved in the 2002 coup which they continue to fund.

diplomatic...
via the international media (of which the WASHINGTON POST and mr martinez are participants), 3 unproven and utterly false accusations are repeatedly circulated:
1.) Chávez is an anti-democratic dictator
2.) Chávez is a destabilizing force in the region
3.) Chávez harbors and supports terrorism

the false story which indicates the magic laptop which directly links chavez himself to supporting FARC, is a story which even the colombia govt is not pursuing.

military...
Plan Balboa
plans for a (mock?) invasion of venezuela have surfaced which leads anaylists to suspect the illegal incursion of ecuador at the hands of the US's proxy (3rd largest recipient of US military aid, in the world) was a test run (which triggered venezuelan tanks to be moved to the border, which got huge int'l media attention - the tanks, that is).

on the tiny caribbean isle of curaçao a venezuelan refinery is located. in april 2006 the aircraft carrier the USS GEORGE WASHINGTON was dispatched to this small island, which is a mere 15 miles off the coast of venezuela. this isn't the only ship dispatched.

this is the article
http://www.counterpunch.org/maher03242008.html

and if you think this is a ridicules claim, remember this: the iraq was has been proven to be based on lies and its expected to cost $3,000,000,000,000.00 (yep that trillion).

here is another article which notes the washington posts' negative bias: http://mathaba.net/news/?x=586667

oh and FF, perhaps since you are missing so many points, it would be unwise to call others dumb.

anyone who doesn't see that an elite group of people regularly manipulate the media for their own gains, can go back to watching american idol.

Good for Martinez again ... but I felt some aftertaste (?)of another crippling myth: oil as a "devil's excrement"

"umm, "go back to russia" ?
haven't heard a derivative of that in years."

That's because Communism is so badly discredited that no self-respecting, halfway-intelligent person would be caught dead using its rhetoric any more. At the end of the day, scapegoating "the elite" instead of finding a way for all of Venezuela (or wherever) to advance in harmony is a recipe for nasty, regressive politics. Which is exactly what Venezuela has gotten. While you're busy trumpeting your solidarity with the poor, Chavez is savaging what remains of Venezuela's democracy and economy (and funneling oil wealth to the middle and upper classes).

"it may not be interesting to you, but names like Omar Torrijos and Salvador Allende are of real people who fortify my point that chavez is quite justified to feel threatened."

That's your argument? That Nixon backed a coup against Allende decades ago? What about the fact that the United States pours hundreds of billions of dollars into Venezuela every year? Is funding the Venezuelan government, including the arms purchases in question, somehow "threatening?" Let's face facts: the equipment Chavez is buying is nowhere close to sufficient to deter the United States. Just as in every aspect of his policies, he uses The Empire as rhetorical justification for policies that would otherwise be extremely unpopular. In this case, the military build-up is aimed at intimidating Columbia (you know, the country he broke off diplomatic contacts with before ordering armored units to mobilize along the border last month?) and more generally throwing weight around Latin America.

"chavez is essentially blowback from the united states. "

No, Chavez actually has very little to do with the United States, beyond his rhetoric. What he is is essentially a craven politician bent on accumulating power. He did attempt to violently overthrow the Venezuelan government in the 1990's, you may recall. The revolutionary rhetoric is simply theatrics to distract the proles.

"since money has been pouring into china from the US, to deny that china is soon to eclipse america economically... but then again, it really isn't about countries anymore, is it? its about the uber rich and everyone else. (oops there goes my commie talk, again.)"

Sorry, was there supposed to be a point in there somewhere?

"i am sorry you missed some of the points being made,"

Likewise, I am sorry that you're dumb enough to think you were making points in the first place.

@ robby breadner

Sorry, my mistake, the correct numbers are 36 out of 47 and this is the source http://www.economista24.com/?p=195 the article that you refered me to is dated "Friday October 12 2007" and in general it is right, it is a great idea in paper... in reality is different. i do not wish to make this thread a conversation about terrorist, drugs and money influence to the geographical expansion of power or a dictator.if you whish to do so we can do it through email 'webmaster at noolvidaremos do com' so that we can keep the board clean of those themes.

as we debate, an article is posted covering the exact issue i raise about media bias...

Venezuela to Host Latin American Meeting Against Media Terrorism
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3297

OPEN QUOTE

Izarra cited investigations conducted by his ministry that reveal that 78% of the mainstream European media coverage of Venezuela during 2007 was negative toward the Chávez administration.

The minister also harshly denounced the "rabidly contrarian" Washington Post, which "emits editorials that are totally out of touch with reality and aligned with the real interests of the Bush administration."

FF,

umm, "go back to russia" ?
haven't heard a derivative of that in years.

it may not be interesting to you, but names like Omar Torrijos and Salvador Allende are of real people who fortify my point that chavez is quite justified to feel threatened. other events throughout central and south america which have had the US' fingerprints all over them, are too numerous to mention.

"Venezuela's Take on U.S. Recession... who's to blame?"
since i didn't read the article, help me out.

chavez is essentially blowback from the united states. unfortunately for the US, blowback is happening in several places around the world. venezuela is not an exception.

since money has been pouring into china from the US, to deny that china is soon to eclipse america economically... but then again, it really isn't about countries anymore, is it? its about the uber rich and everyone else. (oops there goes my commie talk, again.)

i am sorry you missed some of the points being made, i think that was because you were too focussed on working to steer my points into the ditch. but that's okay, we've seen a lot of condescension over the past few years; a lot of underestimation and we're all paying the price for it.

rafael, you and i are both in agreement. it would be extremely risky to purchase venezuelan bonds.

when one has made such an enemy as the US, and after witnessing over and over what happens to a central/south american social-leaning country that does not do the bidding of the US, its enough to rattle any investor. let's face it, investors are not philanthropists. they want maximum profit. why take a chance, when the US is snorting down chavez' neck.

besides, i think it has been made clear that chavez is spending money; investing in everything from milk processing plants, slaughterhouses, oil refining to >gasp< defense. some call it spending or wasting. others call it investment.

true. murders are up. and with the drop in poverty rates, more have the ability to purchase staples (hence shortages). but when wealth is redistributed; when the poor gain, someone loses. the pie is fixed in size. so when money is spent on clinics, education and infrastructure, it comes out of the pockets of a certain segment of the population. and right now, that segment isn't into sharing. come to think of it, that segment of the venezuelan population has never been into sharing. its the disparity that brought chavez to power.

...or maybe all that money is going under an offshore chavez mattress, like suharto, marcos or pinochet... no wait. those were friends.

"more anti-chavez rhetoric from the elite venezuelan upper class..."

What, are we still going after "class enemies?" What is this, USSR under Stalin?

"i find it interesting how chavez is villified for shoring up defense from a very real enemy who has openly supported military coups and repeatedly threatened venezuela."

Not quite as interesting as the ease with which impressionable fools will swallow propaganda about America being out to get Venezuela. But, hey, it's a given the The Revolution is good, and The Empire is bad, so the facts can simply be made up at your leisure...

"mr martinez, who pays for america's missiles, M16's, fighter jets, invasions, occupations, illegal prisons, etc., etc. ?"

The same people as pay for Venezuela's government: Americans. Did you have a point here?

"your argument can be used as a condemnation to ANY country that has a single person under the poverty line."

Did you even read the article? It's about petropolitics, and so cannot be applied to countries that are not petrostates. On the other hand, it's a very apt description of essentially every petrostate. Indeed, this stuff is not controversial, nor was it thought up by Mr. Martinez.

"since chavez has taken power, the poverty rate has dropped by double digits."

There's an excellent article in the current issue of Foreign Affairs that demonstrates that Venezuela's economic performance has lagged behind all other comparable states. The fact is that there's been an oil boom during Chavez's tenure, so large economic progress is to be expected. As it happens, there's been *less* poverty reduction than in other, "non-revolutionary" states, and big increases in income inequality.

Also, it's been pointed out that two of Chavez's biggest programs amount to wealth transfers to the middle- and upper-classes: the gas subsidy (which takes up 7% of GDP, a far larger share than America spends on defense) and the exchange rate controls. Which is to say that while he's got you suckers drooling over The Revolution against The Empire, he's quietly taking money from The Empire and using it to buy support from the middle and upper classes, just like every other crooked head of state in Venezuelan history.

"and now, its chavez' fault that america is slipping into recession."

Yeah, you definitely did not read the article.

"america has no problem dealing with corrupt oil producing nations, as long as those nations are toeing the line."

You mean, like Venezuela?

"but mr. martinez, don't make the leap that all oil producing nations are corrupt."

The article does not refer to "oil producing nations" but to petrostates, which are nations where oil exports dominate the economy. There are no petrostates that are not corrupt; I note that you don't even try to assert that Venezuela is not corrupt.

"i noticed there are no mentions of the discounted oil chavez has offered and provided to low-income american."

Why would there be? What does that have to do with the impact of a US recession on Venezuela? You know, the actual topic of the article in question?

"and i also noticed there is no vilification of other oil producing nations who should then be mentioned since they also supply oil at the same price as venezuela: saudi arabia, canada and others. "

Likewise, there was no vilification of Venezuela. Rather, there was an article on how Venezuela will cope with an economic downturn in its primary export market (and hence, source of revenue). If you'd read the article before launching into your regurgitation of pro-Chavez idiocy, you'd know this.

"perhaps america should stop manufacturing bigger SUV's and stop building larger homes. get off the oil teat."

Which would have the same effect on Venezuela as an economic downturn: a drop in oil prices, and so a drop in Venezuelan income. No more money to spend on clinics, or free gas and dollars for the wealthy Venezuelans. Instead, you'll be stuck with shortage-inducing price controls, which will likely drive the Venezuelan economy into the grave. Really, your only hope is that demand from China will keep prices up.

"perhaps america should stop blaming others for their own problems..."

I can't recall any American blaming any foreigner for the subprime/housing debacle, nor do I see where Mr. Martinez did so. I can, however, recall a lot of Chavez groupies blaming America for every negative thing that has ever happened in world history. Perhaps you should take your own advice and start blaming Chavez for the damage his policies have wreaked on Venezuela?

to: WWW.HANDSONVENEZUELA.ORG
re: "37 of the 42 banks of Venezuela are having problems with their credit card loans"

could you please share your sources with this fact?
while i was unable to locate any online confirmation, i did find this GUARDIAN UK article:

Nobel economist endorses Chávez regional bank plan - 2007.10.12

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/oct/12/venezuela.banking

Wow....

American Liberal education in action: As quick to believe anything or anyone claiming to be pro-the-poor...and immediately suspicious and critical of anyone seeming to be from an elite. So much for critical thinking and empirical investigation.

As difficult as facts are to collect, as biased as pretty much all media is, both US and Venezuelan, and as charming as Mr. Chavez seems to be to some groups, the fact remains that the deterioration that Mr. Ibsen Martinez refers to, is so amazingly widespread as to be "interesting" to us economists... And there is no need to go over the various examples and arguments....you will think what you will.... but history has a way of showing no mercy to all those, individuals, institutions and countries, that fail to learn how to manage their resources well. It won't be long, when the unfathomable corruption, mis administration, populism, and down right lies, catch up with Venezuela in what surely will become one of the more interesting case studies for those interested in economic development and democracy.

There is no arguing that the huge disparities in income and wealth in Venezuela were and are unjustifiable.... There will be too, soon enough, no arguing that the current self-proclaimed government for the poor has presided over the worst administration that the Venezuelan people have ever (EVER) been witness too. And although I think it is -lamentably- late, many of those same poor Venezuelans that believed Chavez are starting to realize they have been duped, once again.

"Trying" and having good intentions are, as Shakespeare would have it, "nothing worth." Proof lays in over 15,000 murders (official numbers) during 2007 (please consider what such numbers mean for a population under 30 million; compare to yearly figures for Irak or Kosovo, way back when; Consider over 86% of casualties are poor-kill-poor. Consider child birth survival rates, and recent widespread resurfacing of epidemics and such. Consider how the government defines "employed" and"unemployed" before you judge head line figures... Or that even OPEC, if you absolutely distrust AEI figures, has been lowering Venezuelan oil production capacity... Its mismanagement in bold African styled letters...

The country is undergoing impressive social, institutional and over all systemic deterioration during the longest oil boom in the country's history. And if, as Mr Martinez suggests, the US economy's troubles last a little longer to currently hoped, or the spillage into Europe, the UK, Australia, et. al and Japan, et. al. becomes a little more obvious, oil markets should tumble back to the mid $70's -for a while at least- and all of a sudden there will be, not enough money, to keep patching up the Venezuelan economy.

And for those who STILL wish to defend the nightmarish Chavista regime, I will say what I have stated elsewhere: "Go put your money where your mouth is: How about buying some Venezuelan bonds?"

This is not the kind of regime a smart leftist political thinker should be betting on.

Sincerely,

Rafael.

Wow....

American Liberal education in action: As quick to believe anything or anyone claiming to be pro-the-poor...and immediately suspicious and critical of anyone seeming to be from an elite. So much for critical thinking and empirical investigation.

As difficult as facts are to collect, as biased as pretty much all media is, both US and Venezuelan, and as charming as Mr. Chavez seems to be to some groups, the fact remains that the deterioration that Mr. Ibsen Martinez refers to, is so amazingly widespread as to be "interesting" to us economists... And there is no need to go over the various examples and arguments....you will think what you will.... but history has a way of showing no mercy to all those, individuals, institutions and countries, that fail to learn how to manage their resources well. It won't be long, when the unfathomable corruption, mis administration, populism, and down right lies, catch up with Venezuela in what surely will become one of the more interesting case studies for those interested in economic development and democracy.

There is no arguing that the huge disparities in income and wealth in Venezuela were and are unjustifiable.... There will be too, soon enough, no arguing that the current self-proclaimed government for the poor has presided over the worst administration that the Venezuelan people have ever (EVER) been witness too. And although I think it is -lamentably- late, many of those same poor Venezuelans that believed Chavez are starting to realize they have been duped, once again.

"Trying" and having good intentions are, as Shakespeare would have it, "nothing worth." Proof lays in over 15,000 murders (official numbers) during 2007 (please consider what such numbers mean for a population under 30 million; compare to yearly figures for Irak or Kosovo, way back when; Consider over 86% of casualties are poor-kill-poor. Consider child birth survival rates, and recent widespread resurfacing of epidemics and such. Consider how the government defines "employed" and"unemployed" before you judge head line figures... Or that even OPEC, if you absolutely distrust AEI figures, has been lowering Venezuelan oil production capacity... Its mismanagement in bold African styled letters...

The country is undergoing impressive social, institutional and over all systemic deterioration during the longest oil boom in the country's history. And if, as Mr Martinez suggests, the US economy's troubles last a little longer to currently hoped, or the spillage into Europe, the UK, Australia, et. al and Japan, et. al. becomes a little more obvious, oil markets should tumble back to the mid $70's -for a while at least- and all of a sudden there will be, not enough money, to keep patching up the Venezuelan economy.

And for those who STILL wish to defend the nightmarish Chavista regime, I will say what I have stated elsewhere: "Go put your money where your mouth is: How about buying some Venezuelan bonds?"

This is not the kind of regime a smart leftist political thinker should be betting on.

Sincerely,

Rafael.

It is a long story the petrodollar and petroeconomy. However,in case of Venezuela it is not just about oil and petroeconomy, it is rather about state run economy and state influence on economy that happen most likely in oil rich non-democratic countries. Petrodolars now are the most important factor preventing oil rich countries to fall in line with the rest of the world on the path of democracy. At the same time, I believe that the U.S. likely recession would not impact on Venezuela's economy due to the current world demand for oil. Also, the U.S imports only about 10% of its total oil imports from the country. However, if the recession spreads into a worldwide economic downturn and slow economic growth of other countries, most notably China and India's economies, it will impact Venezuela. On the other hand, You do not need worry very much about the country's poor, because they are not benefitted much from the current oil prices. They may have a better situation when the government has not so much petrodollars. Thanks.

You are 100% correct in your view...Having lived in Venezuela for over 5 years, I see with clarity the path we are on..The people of Venezuela will not be allowed to realize this by their government however..

Nice article, but i was hopping to read your views on what would a global resetion imply for Venezuela, taking in cosideration that 37 of the 42 banks of Venezuela are having problems with their credit card loans.

Un Venezolano Arrecho
www.handsonvenezuela.org

I have been to V and seen the poor and wealthy areas. I have spoken to poor and wealthy alike. What the V people have is like what we have here in US. Lot's of disinformation, stress between the rich and the poor, lines for certain things like milk. What V has that we don't have is a government that is at least attempting programs it hopes will improve peoples lives. US has a govt that lies it's way into imperial wars that kill hundreds of thousands to enrich it's corporate war profiteer friends, bails out rich multinational banks with US citizens tax dollars to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars all the while leaving tens of millions of it's citizens without health care, nice life lines(huge tax beaks ie corporate welfare)) to all sorts of rich corporate elites while telling this countries poor they are lazy and because the "market" is like a god and provides for all who try. These are just the tip of the iceberg of our problems here in US. I wish we could trade Chavez for Bush.

since i happen to live in a country where power is interrupted, water is occasionally shut off, milk and eggs are regularly not in stock in the stores i can tell you that venezuela doesn't have a monopoly poverty, unavailable goods and decaying infrastructure.

what is irksome is the suggestion that all these things are the fault of one man. meanwhile, bridges are collapsing, cities are flooded, people are standing in line for food, bankruptcy is commonplace... in america.

the world is changing. in some places unfortunately, its not always for the better. admittedly, crime and available staples are not kudos chavez can notch into the win column.

the US has repeatedly meddled in the inner mechanics of oil producing nations or other countries where they have 'interests'. venezuela is a unique animal in that it has capital to fend off this behemoth which usually gets its way.

america needs to have a more conciliatory approach to chavez and venezuela. but then again, in order to appear sincere, a conciliatory approach to many nations is required. and that is a fundamental adjustment which i fear america is still not yet prepared to make.

I get the feeling most the commentators on this article havent stood in line for several hours for a litre of milk. sometimes its all gone and ya just have to comeback another day. I spend several months a year in VE, have for about 6 years.
my fiance lives in caracas.
I have nothing against any politicians,other than the ones here in the states.
I do think it sad how far I have seen Venezuela devolve in the 6 short years I have been going there.
I think before anyone defends the VE policies they really really need to stay in caracas a month or so, maybe travel about a bit without the dog and pony show.
health care is failing, sewerage systems are either failing or simply non existant, look at all the hill side huts, stolen electrical lines and NO septic nor sewerage systems. the smell gets unbearble.
no ruinning water, if your lucky a plastic tank on the rooftop.
yep looks and sounds like poverty was eliminated.
same as all the other robolutions in the past 150 years or so, those in power make great wealth, those without get trampled.
god help Venezuela if another earthquake like the past ones hits anytime in the next few years. will make the tsunami in Indonsia look almost palatable.

the term elitist is very aptly assigned when one has access to computers, the internet and the washington post to gain a voice.

what percentage of the those within the barrios can claim to enjoy the same?

the washington post continues to be part of the anti-chavez media machine which perpetuates endless negative news about hugo chavez; with little attempt at balance.

it is at these times when countering opinions need to be shared, if only in the comments section.

The irony is there is an advertisement from Shell oil to the right of this page...

That being said, it is hilarious to me how all of the major media circuits including the Washington Post find it necessary to promote exclusively Venezuelan journalists who oppose president Hugo Chavez. Certainly, there are many in Venezuela who actually support him and the fact that the revenue from the countries oil is actually going into housing projects, healthcare centers, and educational facilities rather than lining the pockets of government leaders like in..say Nigeria?

For people who supposedly support democracy, we sure are only hearing one perspective of this issue over..and over again.

Unfortunately, the opposition to Chavez has collapsed. Apparently they were more interested in maintaining their elite status than running a democratic government. Chavez had a great chance to turn this country around, but became too full of himself, hopeful his latest election lose knocked some sense into him. Too bad the US can't promote real democracy in Venezuela rather than promoting just their oil buddies.

Dear Mr Breadner:
Yours surely come as fresh news about my being part of what you call the elite venezuelan upper class. By the way, shouldn't "venezuelan" be written with a capital "V"?
I just re-read my short piece and all I can see is a depiction, however brief, of what populist petrostates, such as the one I live in, do to their own people's interests. And my wish for a less spendthrift government.
I would recccomend you to update your small- town's-barber-shop views on how global economy have both neighboring and distant econommi