Fareed Zakaria at PostGlobal

Fareed Zakaria

Editor of Newsweek International, columnist

PostGlobal co-moderator Fareed Zakaria is editor of Newsweek International, overseeing all Newsweek's editions abroad. He writes a regular column for Newsweek, which also appears in Newsweek International and often The Washington Post. He is a member of the roundtable of ABC News' "This Week with George Stephanapoulos" as well as an analyst for ABC News. And he is the host of a new weekly PBS show, "Foreign Exchange" which focuses on international affairs. His most recent book, "The Future of Freedom," was published in the spring of 2003 and was a New York Times bestseller and is being translated into eighteen languages. He is also the author of "From Wealth to Power: The Unusual Origins of America's World Role" (Princeton University Press), and co-editor of "The American Encounter: The United States and the Making of the Modern World" (Basic Books). Close.

Fareed Zakaria

Editor of Newsweek International, columnist

PostGlobal co-moderator Fareed Zakaria is editor of Newsweek International, overseeing all Newsweek's editions abroad. He writes a regular column for Newsweek, which also appears in Newsweek International and often The Washington Post. more »

Main Page | Fareed Zakaria Archives | PostGlobal Archives


Disowning Israel's Arab Minority

Even before a new coalition could emerge, Israel's latest election was historic. It marked the collapse of Labor, the party that can plausibly claim to have founded Israel and produced its most celebrated prime ministers, from David Ben-Gurion (as head of Labor's predecessor, Mapai), through Golda Meir to Yitzhak Rabin. The last vestige of old Labor is Shimon Peres, who--with fitting irony--is the country's president only because he quit the party. Israel's political spectrum is now dominated by three right-wing groups: Likud, Kadima (the Likud offshoot founded by Ariel Sharon) and Yisrael Beytenu, a party of Russian immigrants. But while most commentators focus on the future of the peace process and the two-state solution, a deeper and more existential question is growing within the heart of Israel.

It's a question posed by the election's biggest winner: Avigdor Lieberman. His Yisrael Beytenu party won 15 seats, placing third but gaining enormous swing power in the Israeli system. Whether or not the new government includes him, Lieberman and his issues have moved to center stage. As fiercely as he denounces the Palestinian militants of Hamas and Hizbullah, his No. 1 target is Israel's Arab minority, which he has called a worse threat than Hamas. He has proposed the effective expulsion of several hundred thousand Arab citizens by unilaterally redesignating some northern Israeli towns as parts of the Palestinian West Bank. Another group of several hundred thousand could expect to be stripped of citizenship for failing to meet requirements such as loyalty oaths or mandatory military service (from which Israel's Arabs are currently exempt). The New Republic's Martin Peretz, a passionate Zionist and critic of the peace movement, calls Lieberman a "neo-fascist ... a certified gangster ... the Israeli equivalent of [Austria's] Jörg Haider." No liberal democracy I know of since World War II has disenfranchised or expelled its own citizens.

Today's Arab Israelis are descendants of roughly 160,000 Arabs who stayed in the lands that became Israel in 1948. Their number now stands at 1.3 million, 20 percent of Israel's total population, and demographers predict that by 2025 they'll be a quarter of the country's people. Aside from their military exemption, they have the same legal rights and obligations as all other Israeli citizens. But they face discrimination in many aspects of life, including immigration, land ownership, education and employment. "This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents," retired High Court justice Theodor Or concluded in an official investigation of the second intifada. "Although the Jewish majority's awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted ... as a chief cause of agitation."

The antipathy is mutual. "The people who stayed here did not immigrate here, this is our country," declared Azmi Bishara, a former Arab member of the Knesset, after being charged with sedition for his expressions of support for Hizbullah. "That is why you cannot deal with us on issues of loyalty. This state came here and was enforced on the ruins of my nation. I accepted citizenship to be able to live here, and I will not do anything, security-wise, against the state. I am not going to conspire against the state, but you cannot ask me every day if I am loyal to the state. Citizenship demands from me to be loyal to the law, but not to the values or ideologies of the state. It is enough to be loyal to the law." For decades Israel's Arabs remained loyal to the law--and loyal to the country during its many wars with its neighbors. Now that loyalty is waning. Israeli Arabs--even those who are Christian, rather than Muslim--no longer vote for Israel's mainstream parties. Despite low turnout, the Arab parties fared well in this election, winning some 11 seats in the Knesset. The Arab parties have never been invited into the government, which limits the influence of the Arab population in Israeli politics.

For Israel, handling the relationship with its Arab minority is more crucial even than dealing with Hizbullah or Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Israel needs to decide how it will deal with the Arabs in its midst. As extreme as it may sound, Lieberman's call to disown them seems to have resonated with many of his fellow Israelis. Benjamin Netanyahu has warned that Israel's Arabs constitute a demographic time bomb. He calls it unacceptable. Benny Morris, the once dovish historian who chronicled the forced expulsion of most Palestinians from the Jewish state in 1948, has turned to arguing that Israel needs to protect itself from the Arabs now living within its borders. "They are a potential fifth column," he warned five years ago in an interview with Haaretz. "In both demographic and security terms they are liable to undermine the state ... If the threat to Israel is existential, expulsion will be justified." It's a dangerous spiral: the worse the distrust gets, the less loyalty Israel's Arabs feel toward their country--and vice versa. Last week's election has brought the issue into the open. Its resolution will define the future of Israel as a country, as a Jewish state, and as a democracy.

Comments (402)

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

ANALYSIS / Why isn't Netanyahu backing two-state solution?

By Aluf Benn

Prime Minister-designate Benjamin Netanyahu is refusing to declare his support for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. For Kadima chairwoman Tzipi Livni, that is reason enough to go into the opposition or to attempt to impose a rotation arrangement on Netanyahu. This weekend U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton reiterated Washington's commitment to a two-state solution, effectively joining the foreign minister in portraying Netanyahu as an obstacle to a negotiated settlement.

There are obvious political reasons for Netanyahu's refusal to demonstrate a more moderate stance: It would cost him his potential coalition with the right-wing National Union and Habayit Hayehudi, and force him into a rotation arrangement with Livni. But his opposition to a Palestinian state is also a matter of principle, one he has held for many years…

Netanyahu seeks to deny the Palestinians four rights of any sovereign state: control of its airspace; control of its electromagnetic spectrum; the right to maintain an army and to sign military alliances; and, most importantly, control of the border crossings where arms and terrorists could pass. Netanyahu believes Israel must retain all of these…

Netanyahu believes Israel must insist on retaining 50 percent of the West Bank - the open areas in the Jordan Valley and the Judean Desert that are vital as a security zone. In light of statements the outgoing government has made to the Palestinians, Netanyahu's position is a joke meant to kill the negotiations before they even begin…

In an interview with Lally Weymouth in yesterday's Washington Post… Netanyahu undertook to continue the negotiations with the Palestinians, and said Hamas should be toppled by the residents of Gaza [and not by Israel].

Livni demanded Netanyahu explicitly support the establishment of a Palestinian state. The question is what Clinton will make of Netanyahu's opening gambit. Netanyahu's aides believe that as a seasoned politician, Clinton will find a way to work with him, not against him, but it will be interesting to see whether she will also try to effect a compromise between Netanyahu and Livni in a bid toward creating a more moderate Israeli government.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Israel has lost its status as a country under threat

By Zvi Bar'el in todat’s Haaretz

...You can't be perceived as a bully on one front and a righteous nation on the other. It's not that the Iranian threat has weakened; it's that the shine of its potential victim has dimmed.

And so, as Israel's leaders compete over the scale and volume of threats against Iran, the issue passes into the personal care of the American president. The European Union is waiting for him to flesh out his policy, the Arab states expect a show of force, and Israel is being shown the bench. It watches forlornly as Washington prepares to engage in dialogue with Iran, tightens its relationship with Syria and supports a Palestinian unity government that will include Hamas, another of Tehran's proxies…

If Israel wants to join the anti-Iranian ensemble it can either roll its eyes, foam at the mouth and strain to prove that it can run amok, or it can work to lessen Iranian influence in the region. It could, for instance, encourage the establishment of a Hamas-Fatah government to run the territories; it could also step up the talks with Syria. The threats of Hezbollah and Hamas are not existential ones to Israel, but they have already dragged it into two wars. Israel can neutralize both through diplomacy. This would secure it a place in an unspoken alliance with the Arab states, which are also petrified by Iran's nuclear progress. This would also provide Barack Obama with the diplomatic ammunition to prove that he can achieve peace, rather than wars like his predecessor. This is essential leverage for those who wish not only to block the Iranian expansion, but to encourage it to improve its relationship with the United States.

Constantly depicting Iran as a threat need not become an alternative policy to removing other threats, both closer and more dangerous. It is, in fact, no policy at all.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Abbas: Palestinian unity gov't must support two-state solution

In today’s Jerusalem Post… ___Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Saturday said that a Palestinian unity government with Hamas must support a two-state solution, reiterating a call by US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on the Islamic group to recognize Israel...

However, Hamas official Aiman Taha reportedly stressed that his group rejects any kind of preconditions and noted that Abbas's speech was lowering the prospects of reconciliation talks between Fatah and Hamas succeeding.

"Hamas will never agree to sit in a government that recognizes Israel," he reportedly said.

Earlier Saturday, Hamas also rejected a call by US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton for the Islamic group to recognize the state of Israel, and said her request was unacceptable to the Palestinians.

Hamas spokesman Ismail Radwan said that the group will not recognize Israel nor comply with the conditions set by the Quartet, the radio station reported.

On Friday, Clinton said that the Egyptian-brokered efforts to bring about reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah will only work if the group recognizes Israel.

AFP cited a Voice of America radio report which quoted Clinton as saying "I believe that it's important, if there is some reconciliation and a move toward a unified authority, that it's very clear that Hamas knows the conditions that have been set forth by the quartet, by the Arab summit." …

"They must renounce violence, recognize Israel, and abide by previous commitments, she said of Hamas, "otherwise, I don't think it will result in the kind of positive step forward either for the Palestinian people or as a vehicle for a reinvigorated effort to obtain peace that leads to a Palestinian state."

Clinton is set to arrive in the Middle East on Monday, where she will attend a summit in Egypt on reconstructing Gaza after Operation Cast Lead against Hamas terrorists. She will then visit Jerusalem on her first official visit in her new position.

Regarding US contribution to Palestinians in the Strip, the secretary of state was quoted as saying, "I will be announcing a commitment to a significant aid package, but it will only be spent if we determine that our goals can be furthered rather than undermined or subverted."

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

40 days after war, Hamas rule of Gaza gaining legitimacy

By Aluf Benn, Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff in today’s Haaretz

…The blow Hamas was dealt has only led to increased admiration for the group, according to opinion polls in the territories. Hamas is still waiting for another crowning achievement: if abducted IDF soldier Gilad Shalit is released for more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners…

Cast Lead raised international hackles, because Israel lost few people to the rockets fired from Gaza, but its response caused widespread death and destruction. What's more, in Gaza the victims were Palestinians, who already bear the brunt of the tragedy of 1948…

The major damage Cast Lead did was in legitimizing Hamas as the ruler of the Gaza Strip, with increasing calls for "reconciliation talks" that will return the organization to the Palestinian leadership.

The operation was planned to coincide with the end of the term of the Israel-friendly President George W. Bush, before President Barack Obama entered office. But now, instead of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton coming to talk to Israel about the Iranian threat, her first visit in office will focus on the problems of the Palestinians in Gaza. That might be the greatest damage of all…

Reservist, Amir Marmor, a gunner, said he left the war ashamed. "The IDF used disproportionate power, in a kind of punishment operation." …

The Color Red alert was followed Thursday by the muffled sound of a falling rocket, seemingly not too close to the center of town. Only later, people found out a rocket had hit a house and a few people were suffering from shock. In Sderot, it's business as usual…

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

U.S. to boycott Durban 2 summit on racism

By Shlomo Shamir, in today’s Haaretz

The United States will not attend a United Nations conference on racism that critics say will be a forum to criticize Israel, and will no longer participate in planning sessions for it, a senior UN source told Haaretz on Friday.

The conference is a follow-up to the contentious 2001 conference in the South African city of Durban which was dominated by clashes over the Middle East and the legacy of slavery. The U.S. and Israel walked out midway through that eight-day meeting over a draft resolution that singled out Israel for criticism and likened Zionism - the movement to establish and maintain a Jewish state - to racism…

The decision to drop U.S. involvement comes one day before U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton leaves on her first trip to the Middle East in her new capacity, including stops in Israel…

Last week, Haaretz learned that the draft resolutions for the conference branded Israel as an occupying state that carries out racist policies. They refer to "the plight of Palestinian refugees and other inhabitants of the Arab occupied territories," apparently meaning Israel itself…

They also insisted that no country would be specifically mentioned by name in any resolution and even objected to an initiative by Muslim countries to ratify a law banning criticism of any religion in the media, the source added.

The 2001 World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance in Durban was meant to lay down a blueprint for nations to address sensitive issues.

Israel and the United States walked out in protest over a draft text branding Israel as a racist and apartheid state, language that was later dropped.

The State Department was expected to announce the decision not to participate in the conference later on Friday.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

The Iran-Israel nuclear endgame is now much closer

EDWIN BLACK, in today’s THE JERUSALEM POST

In recent days, four key developments have clicked in to edge Iran and Israel much closer to a military denouement with profound consequences for American oil that the nation is not prepared to meet…

First, Iran has proven it can successfully launch a satellite into outer space as it did on February 2…

Second, the International Atomic Energy Agency last week admitted that it had underestimated Iran's nuclear stockpile by about one-third…

Third, Iran has ramped up its enrichment program with thousands of new homegrown, highly advanced centrifuges… American policymakers are now convinced that Iran, despite all protests and charades, is in a mad dash to create a deliverable nuclear weapon…

Fourth, Binyamin Netanyahu has just become prime minister of Israel. He is determined to take action before - not after - Iran achieves its nuclear potential…

[Continued next post]

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

[Continued from previous post]

THE CONSEQUENCES for this confrontation are apocalyptic because Iran's full partner in this enterprise is Russia…

Following its invasion of Georgia, Moscow forged ahead with final delivery plans for the S-300 advanced air defense system which can track scores of IAF airborne intruders simultaneously, whether low-level drones or high-altitude missiles, and shoot them down. But the S-300, the linchpin of Iran's defense against Israel, will not be fully operational for several months, creating a narrow window for Israel to act…

Iran, of course, has repeatedly threatened to counter any such attack by closing the Strait of Hormuz, as well as launching missiles against the Ras Tanura Gulf oil terminal and bombarding the indispensable Saudi oil facility at Abqaiq which is responsible for some 65 percent of Saudi production. Any one of these military options, let alone all three, would immediately shut off 40% of all seaborne oil, 18% of global oil, and some 20% of America's daily consumption…

THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, like the Bush administration before it, has developed no plan or contingency legislation for an oil interruption, such as a surge in retrofitting America's 250 million gas guzzling cars and trucks - each with a 10-year life - or a stimulus of the alternate fuel production needed to rapidly get off oil. Ironically, Iran has undertaken such a crash program converting some 20% of its gasoline fleet yearly to compressed natural gas (CNG) as a countermeasure to Western nuclear sanctions against the Teheran regime that could completely block the flow of gasoline to Iran. Iran has no refining capability.

The question of when and how this endgame will play out is not known by anyone. Israeli leaders wish to avoid military preemption at all costs if possible. But many feel the military moment must come; and when that moment does come, it will be swift, highly technologic and in the twinkling of an eye. But as one informed official quipped, "Those who know, don't talk. Those who talk, don't know."

The writer is The New York Times best-selling investigative author of IBM and the Holocaust, Internal Combustion and the just released The Plan: How to Save America When the Oil Stops - or the Day Before (Dialog Press).

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Two different approaches on Iran

“On Iran, an Apostle of Patience” by David Ignatius in today’s WP

If you ask White House officials whom President Obama listens to about Iran, they mention an interesting name -- Lee Hamilton, the former congressman from Indiana who co-chaired the 2006 Iraq Study Group that urged engagement with the Iranian regime…

Hamilton cautioned against expecting any quick breakthroughs. He recommended a patient process of engagement... "Those of us who favor dialogue with the Iranians have to be clear that success will not come quickly," he said. "You'll have to have direct, sustained engagement over a long period of time".

“Barak: US must limit Iran diplomatic effort” In today’s THE JERUSALEM POST

Defense Minister Ehud Barak on Thursday warned that it was critical that the United States limit the time-span of its diplomatic effort to rein in Iran's nuclear drive due to the imminence of the threat emanating from Teheran.

"There is a serious Iranian effort to make swift achievements, and time is running out," Barak said at a Labor party meeting. "It is essential that the US administration's initiative to talk to the Iranians be confined to a short period of time… Meanwhile, the sanctions must be tightened so that it quickly becomes clear whether they have a chance of succeeding or not".

Barak also cautioned that the possibility of a military strike on Iran's nuclear facilities was still a viable alternative in case diplomacy and sanctions proved insufficient. "Israel isn't taking any options off the table, and I suggest others don't either. We mean what we say," he added.

[So Obama says go slow, be patient, the key is sustained engagement over a long period of time. Barak says hurry up, time is running out, an Israeli military strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities may be imminent…we mean what we say.]

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Ricky baby.
Yeah, right. The Middle East has been destabilized now by Israel for 60 years and now any minute it will all go up in flames. LOL
Big deal.
Haaretz is a left-wing newspaper and most of it's writers share the same political ideology. It is a point of view, like any other point of view.
Big deal.
LOL

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Memo to Obama: Urgent action needed in Mideast

By Carlo Strenger in today’s Haaretz

We do not know what special envoy George Mitchell told President Barack Obama after his tour of the Middle East. But here is what I hope he is telling the president now.

"Mr. President, unfortunately I do not have good news. It is easy to misjudge Israel. It is indeed a country that thrives in certain respects, but politically it has reached complete paralysis. Never in my long experience have I seen a developed economy and seemingly functioning democracy in a state of such anxiety and hopelessness…

"Israel's democracy has become dysfunctional, not only because of the electoral system (which should indeed be changed). Israel has not truly been governed by a democratic process for a long time. Policy in the West Bank is run far from the public eye, as the IDF's recent internal document has shown. Quiet deals between the military and the settlers determine facts on the ground, and there is no real political control over what the army or the settlers do.

"In this respect Israel is a mirror image of the Palestinian situation. There is no longer a unified Palestinian authority. Hamas is incapable of overcoming its internal divisions to reach clear decisions on anything, and Fatah is losing support and legitimacy because Israel is incapable of making even the smallest step to convince the Palestinians that it is moving toward peace. The Palestinian public is gradually won over by the idea of 'resistance' i.e. violent struggle against Israel, no matter what the cost, and even if it doesn't lead to any tangible result.

[Continued on next post…]

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

[Continued from previous post]

"In brief: I believe that both Israel and the Palestinians are fragmented and paralyzed, and that bilateral talks would at this point be doomed to failure. I am afraid that if we don't do anything, a third intifada will start. The Arab regimes in the Middle East will not be able to deal with the rage that further Israeli military actions like the one in Gaza will generate in their streets, and the whole region could be destabilized.

"Mr. President, I know that you have your hands full because of the economic meltdown, but I am afraid that we, the United States, do not have the luxury of letting the Middle Eastern situation deteriorate. Israel could well move further to the right, and there is a scenario under which Lieberman, who champions a presidential system, might become Israel's leader, and the mess might become intractable because he is likely to polarize the situation even further.

"My suggestion is that we, the U.S., apply our full leverage and do the following: We should pressure Israel into engaging with the Arab peace initiative. We could do so if we provide Israel with the guarantee that we will use our might to prevent any attack from Iran, even if it goes nuclear, but that in return for this guarantee Israel will have to start dismantling the settlements in the West Bank.

"We should convince Arab countries to dispatch military forces to take over security in the West Bank and Gaza, and we should set up an ongoing peace conference under the auspices of the U.S., EU, Russia and the Arab League that is committed to continue until a settlement is reached. I have used this model in Northern Ireland, and it has worked there. And please convince Bill Clinton to stand by my side in this process, because Mr. Clinton used to be loved and trusted in Israel, and he might help me generate trust in the possibility of peace that has evaporated."

The writer, a philosopher and psychoanalyst, teaches at the Psychology Department at Tel Aviv University and is a member of the Permanent Monitoring Panel on Terrorism of the World Federation of Scientists.

gabraeal Author Profile Page:

Please Why the Jews aren't remember how they were in Egypt when Faro was slaving them . Then The God Of Abraham , Isaac And Jacob (Israel )released them from the slavery in the Hand of the Prophet Musses ? why they are not remembering what happen to them by the Nazis / why they are doing what they are doing now ? Isn't the same as the deed Of Faro , Hitler Mussolini ? They are doing very very bad sin and crimes against all of the Humanity . That is too bad .The all must know that the God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob ( Israel ) will stop them and punish them nearly . The history is telling us that all those whom used power against poor people and weak disappeared and destroyer by God .

gabraeal Author Profile Page:

Please Why the Jews aren't remember how they were in Egypt when Faro was slaving them . Then The God Of Abraham , Isaac And Jacob (Israel )released them from the slavery in the Hand of the Prophet Musses ? why they are not remembering what happen to them by the Nazis / why they are doing what they are doing now ? Isn't the same as the deed Of Faro , Hitler Mussolini ? They are doing very very bad sin and crimes against all of the Humanity . That is too bad .The all must know that the God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob ( Israel ) will stop them and punish them nearly . The history is telling us that all those whom used power against poor people and weak disappeared and destroyer by God .

gabraeal Author Profile Page:

Please Why the Jews aren't remember how they were in Egypt when Faroah was slaving them . Then The God Of Abrahaam , Isaac And Jacob (Isreal )released them from the slavery in the Hand of the Prophet Musses ? why they are not remembering what happen to them by the Nazists / why they are doing what they are doing now ? Isn't the same as the deed Of Faroah , Hizler Mossoliny ? They are doing very very bad sin and crimes against all of the Humanity . That is too bad .The all must know that the God of Abrahaam , Isaac and Jacob ( Isreal ) will stop them and punish them nearly . The history is telling us that all those whom used power againt poors and weaks disapeared and distoryed by God .

gabraeal Author Profile Page:

America is for Americns not for international zionists.
As that Palestine is for Palestinians not for international Zionists.
Americans Aproved that America is the best Democratic nation in all over the world when they ellcted Barack Hussein Obama , The African Amerrican whom his father was a Muslim from Kenya.
But The Zionists whom are discribing them selves as Democrats in false Haven't in their cabinet of the ministry even only one Flasha Jew from Ethiopia , an only one Arab a cristian or a Muslim .They are all aparthide Zionists came from Russia and more than hundred countreis around the world.
In addition those who will born in the future in any where ,any country as Zionists will be citizens in the State of Palestine asowners of the nation as they are planed .They want to drive away from their homeland all of the Christians and the Muslims who are the original citizines of Palestine .
OH MY GOD . The God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob ( Isreal ).What is going in the world ? what happen ? If there is there no jusice of humanity ? Where is yours

gabraeal Author Profile Page:

In the name of the God Of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob ( Israel ) .
It's crime against humanity what is going in Palestine . the Judgment of God is coming nearly to disappear those who are attacking , killing , murdering and killing children , women , grand mothers and grand fathers in the respected day of Sabbath ( Saturday ) As the god of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob ( Israel ) done before on the Jews who did less than what these did in the end of last year 2008 and the beginning of this year 2009 against Gaza people and land . God will punish the Zionists as he punished the Nazisms and the Fascists who killed the mother and the father of my mother in Ethiopia . I am calling all humanity to help the Gaza people and solve the problem of Palestine in justice , other wise they will drink from the same cup once .
Please watch and litsen the following video .
Tell Me Why-Declan Galbraith
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j6IBdHW_rY

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

[Continued from my previous post @ February 24, 2009 11:45 AM]

Matthew says:

[8] “FACT - The territories of the West Bank and Gaza have never exercised any recognizable sovereignty for 2500 years - these territories have always been ruled by some other state - thus "unincorporated" territories.”

Wrong…see my reply to [1] @ February 24, 2009 5:53 AM…

http://www.mefacts.com/cached.asp?x_id=11452

From the above link:

THE MODERN HISTORY OF PALESTINE AS A PART OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE

“In 1516 the Ottoman Turks conquered Palestine, and the country was incorporated in the dominions of the Ottoman Empire. Local governors were appointed from Constantinople, to which annual revenues were sent. Various public works were undertaken in Palestine, such as the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem by Suleiman the Magnificent in 1537. Palestine remained under Turkish rule until World War I.”

Palestine was incorporated into and governed by the Ottoman Empire for millennia prior to being conquered and occupied by the British Empire, Jordan, Egypt and finally by Israel.

[9] “FACT - The Gaza and West Bank were never granted sovereignty between 1948 and 1967, when ruled by Egypt and Jordan, respectively. After the Six-Day War, Israel assumed sovereignty over the unincorporated territories.”

So what? The Israeli occupation is just a continuation of the illegal occupation of Palestine by foreigners…only more brutal.

At least the earlier occupiers, Turkey, Britain, Jordan and Egypt did not abuse the Palestinian people; e.g. chase them from their land and homes, to pen them up in concentration camps, to bomb them with US supplied F-16 fighter/bombers, Apache attack helicopters, and tank squadrons, killing women and children by the thousands like shooting fish in a barrel, and assassinate their leaders at will.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

[Continued from my previous post @ February 24, 2009 10:09 AM]

Mathew says:

[5] “FACT - The Arab Muslim states and Persia, which had been over the course of the 20th C forcing out their Jewish populations, generally completed the bulk of their expulsions by 1948.”

OK, I will give you that, for what is worth.

The Jews were a tiny minority who were expelled from Muslim countries and Persia, in small numbers perhaps even prior to the Arab-Israeli war of 1948 and Jewish invasion and occupation of Palestine. While unjust, this does not rise to the level of the unprovoked invasion and occupation of Palestine and dispossession of the native population.

[6] “FACT - The undifferentiated Arabs did not consider themselves "Palestinians"; many of the putative [commonly accepted or supposed] "Palestinian" people originated elsewhere - such as Cairo-born Yasser Arafat.”

I think that claim is ridiculous on its face, with no need to provide a reference to refute it. Arafat was Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization, President of the Palestinian National Authority, and leader of the secular Fatah political party, which he founded in 1959. Arafat spent much of his life fighting against Israel in the name of Palestinian self-determination. The fact of his birth in Egypt is irrelevant.

[7] “FACT - Arabs fled from the territories either because they were ordered to get out of the way by the Arab invaders, or because they were fearful of the coming conflict, or because the Israelis forced them out - all three conditions were factors for Arab dislocation.”

OK, but so what? All three factors have the Israeli invasion and occupation as the root cause.

[To be continued…]

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Well Ricky.
It seems that you are finally going to use the sites to which I have directed you over and over again for weeks.
I wait with bated breath to see just how badly you'll screw it up.
LOL

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Whose Israel Shall It Be?

By Richard Cohen in today’s WP

The day after the United Nations created the state of Israel, the country's first president, Chaim Weizmann, found time to work on his memoir, "Trial and Error." In it, he issued a warning to the Israeli leaders of today: "I am certain that the world will judge the Jewish state by what it will do with the Arabs." It was Nov. 30, 1947…

Peering into the future, he glimpsed the ugly turn Israeli politics has recently taken and how it is now acceptable to talk in repulsive ways about the country's 1.3 million Arabs. "There must not be one law for the Jew and another for the Arabs," he wrote…

In an odd way, Israel's Arabs ought to represent the best of Israel. They can vote. They hold seats in parliament. They have more civil rights in Israel than they would in any Arab nation. They ought to be a point of pride. Their civil liberties, their standard of living, their political participation ought to show the world what sort of country Israel is. That's what Weizmann wanted.

The concept [of ethnic cleansing] was anathema to important members of the Zionist establishment such as Weizmann. The way of the world -- eliminating ethnic minorities -- would not be practiced by the very ethnic minority that had suffered the most.

It is clear that the world has grown weary of Israel. Its problems seem intractable, insoluble. Its solicitous critics suggest it imbibe the hemlock of proportionality -- a missile for a missile, a rocket for a rocket. To do otherwise amounts to "state terrorism," in the felicitous phrase of Bill Moyers. It turns out winning isn't everything; losing gracefully is.

Lieberman's rhetoric has excited some concern in the American Jewish community, but, as usual, most of the leaders are mum. They ought to open their Weizmann, Page 461 to be precise, and see what Israel's founding fathers had in mind. Israel can swap land for peace, but not Arab for Jew. That would leave an empty space -- not only where the Arabs once were, but where Israel once kept its values.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

[Continued from my previous post @ February 24, 2009 8:43 AM]

[4] “FACT – The Jews declared independence on the portion of the Mandate allotted them, and created the State of Israel, and proclaimed the civil equality of all within its borders. Nascent Israel was immediately attacked by Egypt, Iraq, Syria & Lebanon.”

Fact is, both the Balfour Declaration of 1917, and the allotment of a portion of Palestine to the invading European Jews for the purpose of forming an apartheid, racist state, was illegal under Articles 42 – 47 of Hague IV of October 18, 1907 governing “Laws of War: Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague IV)”

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague04.asp#art46

SECTION III…MILITARY AUTHORITY OVER THE TERRITORY OF THE HOSTILE STATE

Art. 42. Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.

Art. 43. The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.

Art. 44. A belligerent is forbidden to force the inhabitants of territory occupied by it to furnish information about the army of the other belligerent, or about its means of defense.

Art. 45. It is forbidden to compel the inhabitants of occupied territory to swear allegiance to the hostile Power.

Art. 46. Family honour and rights, the lives of persons, and private property, as well as religious convictions and practice, must be respected.
Private property cannot be confiscated.

Art. 47. Pillage is formally forbidden.

[To be continued]

yorkville7 Author Profile Page:

to wash post.. the jewish internet defensev league along with several other jewish internet spam orgs has issued action alerts to its jewish members to post pro israel propaganda and talking points on this thread please kindly ban these filth so that americans may have a civilized discussion

yorkville7 Author Profile Page:

once again it is jews and only jews who make excuses to support israel, a fact played out over and vover on every website on the internet. its time to just ignore them they are the scourge of the internet

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

[Continued from my previous post @ February 24, 2009 5:53 AM]

[2] “FACT - The largest section of the Palestinian Mandate – 75% - became the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, and comprises a population not less than 60% ‘Palestinian’.

OK…but what is your point? That the remaining 25% should be given to the Jews? That’s like saying that the USA has conquered almost the entire North American continent; therefore we should give 25% of it to the Jews. We should give it back to the Native Americans perhaps, but what possible claim could the Jews have on it?

[3] FACT – The United Nations in 1947 recommended partitioning the remaining 25% into independent Arab and Jewish states.

The mistake of the century… The British, who were responsible for this mess, abstained from the vote on partition. They new that it was a mistake… They tried to reverse course and correct the disaster wrought by the Balfour Declaration of 1917 ["His Majesty's government [would] view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" with the understanding that "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."] … [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917] ...with the White Paper of 1939… [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939] ... a policy paper issued by the British government in which the idea of partitioning the Mandate for Palestine, as recommended in the Peel Commission Report of 1937, was abandoned in favor of creating an independent Palestine governed by Palestinian Arabs and Jews in proportion to their numbers in the population by 1949 (section I). A limit of 75,000 Jewish immigrants was set for the five-year period 1940-1944, consisting of a regular yearly quota of 10,000, and a supplementary quota of 25,000, spread out over the same period, to cover refugee emergencies. After this cut-off date, further immigration would depend on the permission of the Arab majority (section II). Restrictions were also placed on the rights of Jews to buy land from Arabs (section III).

[To be continued]

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Does anyone else hear a background noise that sounds like a child pitching a temper tantrum?

It sounds like… “I don't hate you little Ricky, I pity you for your stupidity and ignorance….Ricky, what you know about geopolitics would fit into a thimble…You [AM] are a bigoted fool; even if you aren't specifically an anti-Semite, which, of course, I don't believe for half a second [the eternal whine of the Zionist]… you don't have any answers, just disgusting hatred. LOL…Are you too stupid for words? ... Keep posting BS, boy. I'm sure your cheering section of the mentally challenged is all ears. LOL…and only an idoiot like you, and whomever the stupid Papal legate is…only a brainwashed idiot could possibly fail to see that. But I forget to whom I am speaking. LOL…”

It sounds almost like our problem child Teddy boy.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Friends,

Isn’t it a pleasant change of pace to have a serious adult with whom to have a congenial exchange of ideas with?

Mathew says:

“Ref Rick's previous posts - Whether articulated by a prelate or a blogger, to equate the unincorporated territories (i.e., West Bank and Gaza) with a concentration camp is a monstrous calumny [the act of uttering false charges or misrepresentations maliciously calculated to harm another's reputation]. Rick is entitled to his opinion, but is not entitled to assert as fact that which is demonstrably false. How about a few facts? ...”

“[1] FACT - The Palestinian Mandate was created by the League of Nations from the remnants of the decrepit [wasted and weakened by or as if by the infirmities of old age] Ottoman Empire at the conclusion of WWI.”

Let’s try to verify some of Matthews “facts” with a few independent sources. I will refer to the Primary Search Engine for Middle East Facts (MEFacts.com), Wikipedia, MidEastWeb.org and others.

[Continued on next post]

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

[Continued from last post]

In the first place, the fact that the Ottoman Empire was “old” and had incorporated the land of Palestine for millennia goes counter to Matthew’s argument that Palestine was “unincorporated territories” and hence was free game for invasion and occupation.

http://www.mefacts.com/cached.asp?x_id=11452

From the above link:

THE MODERN HISTORY OF PALESTINE AS A PART OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE

“In 1516 the Ottoman Turks conquered Palestine, and the country was incorporated in the dominions of the Ottoman Empire. Local governors were appointed from Constantinople, to which annual revenues were sent. Various public works were undertaken in Palestine, such as the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem by Suleiman the Magnificent in 1537. Palestine remained under Turkish rule until World War I.”

This effectively refutes the basis for all of Matthew’s “facts”; i.e. that Palestine was “unincorporated territory” and hence free for the taking; to be invaded, occupied and exploited at will. That the European Jews were free to disposes the native population at will, to chase them from their land and homes, to pen them up in concentration camps, to bomb them with US supplied F-16 fighter/bombers, Apache attack helicopters, tank squadrons, killing women and children by the thousands like shooting fish in a barrel, to assassinate their leaders at, etc.

[To be continued…]

Peace,
Rick

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Ricky. Ricky, Ricky.
The differences between Gaza, a city in which people can move about freely, doing whatever it is they feel like doing, and a concentration camp where people are kept imprisoned in shacks under 24 hour guard, are tremendous, and only an idoiot like you, and whomever the stupid Papal legate is, would draw a parallel.
When Israel withdrew from Gaza, leaving the people to make their own choices, it couldn't have even approached a condition where it could be even remotely considered a concentration camp.
Hamas won an election, chased its opposition out at the point of a gun, continued regular rocket attacks on Israel, kidnapped an Israeli soldier, imported bigger and better weapons, and refused to agree to the existence of Israel as a Jewish state.
Those are the facts. Easy to verify without resorting to opinions or polemic.
If Gaza can be compared to a concentration camp, it is 100% the fault of Hamas, and only a brainwashed idiot could possibly fail to see that.
But I forget to whom I am speaking.
LOL

Matthew16 Author Profile Page:

Friends,
Ref Rick's previous posts - Whether articulated by a prelate or a blogger, to equate the unincorporated territories (i.e., West Bank and Gaza) with a concentration camp is a monstrous calumny. Rick is entitled to his opinion, but is not entitled to assert as fact that which is demonstrably false. How about a few facts?

FACT - The Palestinian Mandate was created by the League of Nations from the remnants of the decrepit Ottoman Empire at the conclusion of WWI.

FACT - The largest section of the Palestinian Mandate – 75% - became the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, and comprises a population not less than 60% “Palestinian”.

FACT – The United Nations in 1947 recommended partitioning the remaining 25% into independent Arab and Jewish states.

FACT – The Jews declared independence on the portion of the Mandate allotted them, and created the State of Israel, and proclaimed the civil equality of all within its borders. Nascent Israel was immediately attacked by Egypt, Iraq, Syria & Lebanon.

FACT - The Arab Muslim states and Persia, which had been over the course of the 20th C forcing out their Jewish populations, generally completed the bulk of their expulsions by 1948.

FACT - The undifferentiated Arabs did not consider themselves "Palestinians"; many of the putative "Palestinian" people originated elsewhere - such as Cairo-born Yasser Arafat.

FACT - Arabs fled from the territories either because they were ordered to get out of the way by the Arab invaders, or because they were fearful of the coming conflict, or because the Israelis forced them out - all three conditions were factors for Arab dislocation.

FACT - The territories of the West Bank and Gaza have never exercised any recognizable sovereignty for 2500 years - these territories have always been ruled by some other state - thus "unincorporated" territories.

FACT - The Gaza and West Bank were never granted sovereignty between 1948 and 1967, when ruled by Egypt and Jordan, respectively. After the Six-Day War, Israel assumed sovereignty over the unincorporated territories.

Perhaps the preceding might place Rick's rhetorical flourishes into clearer context.
Peace, Matthew

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Teddy boy says:

“And what concentration camps are you speaking of? The only ones that I know about are those run by the UN with the help of the Arab nations.”

Papal response: Vatican compares Gaza to Nazi camp

By Peter Popham in Rome

The pope's minister for peace and justice was accused yesterday of speaking like a Holocaust denier after comparing Gaza to a "big concentration camp".

Cardinal Renato Martino, a veteran Vatican diplomat with years of experience as the Pope's delegate to the United Nations, told an interviewer for L'Avvenire, the daily paper of the Italian bishops, that "nobody" in the Israel-Hamas dispute "sees the interests of the other, but only their own". He continued: "But the consequences of egoism are hatred for the other, poverty and injustice. The ones who pay are always the defenceless populations. Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more it resembles a big concentration camp."

Israel and its supporters reacted angrily to the cardinal's implied comparison of Gaza to the concentration camps of Nazi Germany. "We are astounded to hear from a spiritual dignitary words that are so far removed from truth and dignity," said Yigal Palmor, a Foreign Ministry spokesman.

The row cast doubt on the Pope's tentative plan to visit the Holy Land in May.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Durban II draft document getting worse

Tovah Lazaroff and Abe Selig , THE JERUSALEM POST, Feb. 23, 2009

The draft document for the United Nations anti-racism conference, dubbed Durban II, is problematic both for Israel and western democracies in general, Ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva Roni Leshno Yaar told The Jerusalem Post on Sunday…

"At this stage it is not possible to say what in the text would improve, if at all. In fact I expect the text to get only worse on all issues which are important for western democracy," Leshno Yaar said in a telephone interview from Geneva.

He spoke as representatives from 190 nations have been meeting in Geneva to debate the language for a document in which Israel is alluded to as a "racist" and "apartheid" power.

The final draft will be presented at an April meeting in Geneva, which is the follow-up to the 2001 UN World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance, which took place in Durban, South Africa…

"A foreign occupation founded on settlements, laws based on racial discrimination with the aim of continuing domination of the occupied territories," it adds, is a "contemporary form of apartheid and a serious threat to international peace and security." …

In the last week, the Palestinians tried to introduce language into the document regarding the 2004 advisory ruling by the International Court of Justice at The Hague against the security barrier, said Leshno Yaar…

"Operation Cast Lead is going to take center stage at Durban II, and we have to be ready for that." Hermon continued. "It was in everyone's homes, on everyone's television sets, and it's going to be everywhere in Geneva as well."

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Posted on February 23, 2009 16:13

rick22407 :
Teddy boy says:

“Whenever someone has nothing but calumny to heap upon Israel, refuses ever to acknowledge suicide bombers, rockets, and other forms of Palestinian terrorism…”

The point Teddy boy is to remember who is the occupier and who is the occupied? The Israelis are the occupiers and thus have no right to defend the occupation, especially by attacking the blockaded civilian population penned up in concentration camps, with US supplied F-16 fighter/bombers, Apache attack helicopters with stand-off air-to-ground missiles and guided bombs, and squadrons of tanks; like shooting fish in a barrel.

But the occupied do have the right to fight back against the occupation by any and every asymmetrical means at their disposal.
_______________________________________________

Why is there an occupation to begin with? Does history have no past? Did it begin yesterday?
Are you too stupid for words?
And what "concentration camps are you speaking of?
The only ones that I know about are those run by the UN with the help of the Arab nations.
And again I notice that your answer is calculated to avoid the questions about Arab terrorism.
Keep posting BS, boy. I'm sure your cheering section of the mentally challenged is all ears.
LOL

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Defense establishment fears US may cut military aid

Yaakov Katz and Tovah Lazaroff , THE JERUSALEM POST, Feb. 23, 2009

The Defense Ministry is concerned that US President Barack Obama will cut military aid to Israel in an effort to pressure the new government to take action against illegal outposts and settlement construction, defense officials said…

[Would that he will, but I doubt it.]

"Mitchell is a known opponent of the outposts and the settlements," a senior defense official said. "The Americans may try to use the military aid as a way of pressuring the new government into dismantling outposts and freezing construction in settlements."

But the Defense Ministry's jitters regarding US military aid were not shared by the Prime Minister's Office or the Finance Ministry.

Officials in the latter two offices said they had not heard of any plans to cut American military aid to Israel, which was set out in a 2007 memorandum of understanding signed by both countries.

It promised that Israel would receive $30 billion over a 10-year period. This year, Israel received $2.5b. of that sum, and it is expected to receive $2.7b. in 2010. The amount is scheduled to increase until it levels out at $3.1b. in 2013. It is limited to that sum for the remainder of the agreement. Seventy-five percent are expected to go toward purchasing US-made weapons, with the bulk of the remainder going to domestic defense purchases…

Military aid cuts are not the only issue that concerns the Defense Ministry ahead of Mitchell's visit.

Concern is also growing in the IDF's Central Command that America will push Israel to begin transferring security over West Bank towns to the Palestinian Authority…

The officials noted that Mitchell was likely to open a permanent office in Jerusalem.

yorkville7 Author Profile Page:

is it bad to not like a barbaric people with no values or morals who caused america to be attacked on 9/11 because their aipac lobby forces congress to support israeli terror and occupation,and a people who own 97 percent of the media and feed propaganda to americans on behalf of another country israel,a people who have silenced debate and critisizm of israel and ruined carreers through smeer campaigns from jewish organizations and their controll of media, a people who organize to pass laws prohibiting public displays of christian symbols on christmas.....the fact is israel has no support among americans except by jews in america and congress and the jewish media.....to dislike jews is a natural reaction for americans because of our values and traditions and our sense of right and wrong and as christians. to be called antisemetic is to be called american

yorkville7 Author Profile Page:

ask not is it anti semetic ask is it true....general patton said in his autobiography he was disgusted by the uncivilized filthy behavior of the displaced people (1 million jews) after the war in germany who were living in homes of germans who were evicted to make room for them he stated in every room there is garbage strewn in the corners where they relieve themselves and the only function they find for latrines is for tin cans and other refuse, he stated after meeting a rabbi he vomited from the smell minutes later and remarked how the jews seemed to only be comfortable when huddled in their own filth and see no need to clean laundry. IKE said in his biography NO PEOPLE ARE SO COWARDLY IN BATTLE AND YET SO CRUEL AND INHUMAN ONCE THEY ATTAIN POWER OVER ANOTHER THAN THE JEWS. i personally agree with these great men.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Teddy boy says:

“Whenever someone has nothing but calumny to heap upon Israel, refuses ever to acknowledge suicide bombers, rockets, and other forms of Palestinian terrorism…”

The point Teddy boy is to remember who is the occupier and who is the occupied? The Israelis are the occupiers and thus have no right to defend the occupation, especially by attacking the blockaded civilian population penned up in concentration camps, with US supplied F-16 fighter/bombers, Apache attack helicopters with stand-off air-to-ground missiles and guided bombs, and squadrons of tanks; like shooting fish in a barrel.

But the occupied do have the right to fight back against the occupation by any and every asymmetrical means at their disposal.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

AMviennaVA :
NadineSC @February 21, 2009 6:07 PM: Perhaps you will see the response. You asked 'I notice a pattern in our back and forth. ...' The reason is that I do not spend much time on these blogs. By the time I see a response, the thread has evolved.
______________________________________________

Baloney. You can post an answer at any time. Your problem is that you don't have any answers, just disgusting hatred.
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

AMviennaVA :
rick22407 @ February 22, 2009 7:15 PM: I noticed from your post that 'Teddy boy' labeled me a 'bone-deep anti-Semites… retarded children…'. It is not the first time someone calls me that, but it is also irrelevant. Whenever I have asked for proof that I have taken an anti-semitic position, I receive no reply. The problem to some is that if you disagree with anything an Israeli government says or does, you are anti-semitic. If I was Jewish I would actually take offense that the term has been debased to that extent. It makes all Israelis anti-semitic. (Which is one reason I still maintain that 'teddy boy' does not have the maturity of a 13 year-old).
_______________________________________________

Whenever someone has nothing but calumny to heap upon Israel, refuses ever to acknowledge suicide bombers, rockets, and other forms of Palestinian terrorism, and posits conditions and situations which are untrue and easily refuted by any number of info sites, I kind of get the feeling that there's something going on here besides mere criticism of Israel.
You are a bigoted fool. even if you aren't specifically an anti-Semite, which, of course, I don't believe for half a second.
LOL

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

rick22407 @ February 22, 2009 7:15 PM: I noticed from your post that 'Teddy boy' labeled me a 'bone-deep anti-Semites… retarded children…'. It is not the first time someone calls me that, but it is also irrelevant. Whenever I have asked for proof that I have taken an anti-semitic position, I receive no reply. The problem to some is that if you disagree with anything an Israeli government says or does, you are anti-semitic. If I was Jewish I would actually take offense that the term has been debased to that extent. It makes all Israelis anti-semitic. (Which is one reason I still maintain that 'teddy boy' does not have the maturity of a 13 year-old).

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

NadineSC @February 21, 2009 6:07 PM: Perhaps you will see the response. You asked 'I notice a pattern in our back and forth. ...' The reason is that I do not spend much time on these blogs. By the time I see a response, the thread has evolved.

sarvi1 Author Profile Page:

In fact, Sri Lanka was one of the first countries after the Second World War to disenfranchise significant number of its citizens in 1948 immediately after gaining independence from Great Britain. Hundreds of thousands of hill-country Tamils (also known as "Indian Tamils"), who were brought to the Island from the Tamilnadu State in Southern India by the British colonial rulers to work in coffee, tea & rubber plantations, were stripped off their citizenship and made state-less people in oredr to minimise the representation of the Tamil minority community in the Parliament.

Although the British colonial rulers took Indian labourers from all over India (mostly from Southern Indian States) to its colonies such as Fiji Islands, Malaya, Mauritius, Ceylon (now known as Sri Lanka), et al, Sri Lanka has the dubious distinction of being the one and only country to disenfranchise them immediately after gaining independence from Great Britain.

However, later during the late-1960s, 1970s & 1980s, India repatriated part of this disenfranchised hill-country Tamils to India, and Sri Lanka restored citizenship to rest of this state-less population.


pabelmont2007 Author Profile Page:

This article deals largely with Israeli discrimination against its 20% non-Jewish minority (Christian and Muslim, chiefly). This discrimination is, of course, as nothing compared to Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinians living outside Israel.

The world symbolically wrings its hands about "peace" but is powerless against the US and Israel, which have not wished to join the international consensus.

The US has been trapped by the extremely effective pro-Israel lobby which has "trained" the US Congress in a rather Pavlovian manner to so-called pro-Israel statements, votes, etc. I say "so-called pro-Israel" because those within Israel, both Jews and non-Jews, who want peace are as frustrated by the US's giving-in to the Lobby as are peaceniks elsewhere.

One problem (given that peace seems so unattainable) is that the world and especially the US have FOCUSED on "peace" instead of focusing on the relatively more-easily attainable goal of LAWFUL OCCUPATION.

If the US and UN would insist that -- while the world waits for peace -- Israel must conduct the occupation LAWFULLY, at least the lives of those living under occupation would be improved.

A LAWFUL OCCUPATION would not maintain an "apartheid" WALL, would not allow even 1 settler (much less 480,000 settlers) to live in occupied territories, would not impose a SIEGE on Gaza, etc.

While we wait for "peace" we should be WORKING for a LAWFUL OCCUPATION.

But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps DISDAIN FOR LAW is one of the US's and Israel's "shared values."

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Thanks for the post Matthew,

Your good self is of course entitled to your opinion. I must humbly disagree. You say:

“…a) Many people of good conscience support Israel because: a) Israel is a democratic state amidst a sea of tyranny”

Yes, Israel is a democratic state for the moment. The debate now on-going in Israel, and the subject of this thread, is ‘will Israel disown [ethnically cleanse] its Arab minority”.

…“b) the people of Israel generally share our values”

No, the people of Israel believe that they are entitled to (1) invade peoples’ homes and land, (2) expel most of the native population into concentration camps, (3) occupy this land and continue to expand into neighboring lands as they see fit, (4) set up an apartheid, racist, system of governance in which the minority population does not have equal civil rights, (5) hog 80% of the water rights of the region, (6) blockade the neighboring concentration camps, near starving the inhabitants, (7) assassinate the native Palestinian leadership as they see fit, and (8) slaughter innocent women and children by the thousands using American supplied F-16 fighter/bombers and Apache attack helicopters and squadrons of tanks.

… “c) Israel opposes terrorism, which in their neighborhood is conducted by HAMAS, Hezb'ollah, et al, and poses an existential threat to their very existence.”

No Israel is the terrorist state. Hamas and Hezbollah are the freedom fighters who are attempting to expel the invader and occupier and restore the land to its rightful heirs.

“The putative "Palestinian" people have been unwilling to live in peace alongside their Jewish neighbors.”

As well they should not meekly submit to invasion, occupation, and attempted ethnic cleansing and genocide.

[Continued on next post]

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

[Continued from last post]

“When given the opportunity, they elected to government a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel.”

No, they elected freedom fighters who refuse to appease and collaborate with the occupation.

“If the Arab Muslim population of Israel continues to act as a fifth column inside Israel, they ought not be surprised if the Israelis decide to expel those unwilling to live in peace.”

Kindly give examples of this so-called continued “fifth column” activity.

“For far less cause, the Arab Muslim countries and Persia expelled the Jews. If Arab Muslims find ‘population transfer’ acceptable when it is forced on the Jews, then why is it not acceptable when imposed on the Arab Muslims?”

The Jews were a tiny minority who were expelled from Muslim countries and Persia in response to the Arab-Israeli war of 1948 and Jewish invasion and occupation of Palestine. While unjust, this does not rise to the level of the unprovoked invasion and occupation of Palestine and dispossession of the native population.

“York, the US was attacked on 11 September 2001 because the US supported the House of Saud, part of which support included the basing of troops in Saudi Arabia in support of operations to contain Saddam Hussein. Other reasons were of far lesser importance to bin-Laden than the supreme affront of "infidels" on Muslim land - pre-2001 AQ propaganda focused on this reason far more than US support for Israel.”

Both the US basing of troops in Saudi Arabia and US support for the apartheid, racist “State of Israel” were important reasons for the attacks of 9/11.

Peace,
Rick

yorkville7 Author Profile Page:

9/11 was in retaliation for our support for israeli terror and occupation.......the zionist press told us at the time "they hate our freedom" a statement of pure propaganda to keep americans from questioning support for israel,a move that could never have worked today on a more enightened populace where most get their info from unfiltered internet news sources. israel is not a democracy both christians and muslims must have papers to travel to holy sites and roads are divided into jewish only/ and arab roads/ it is an apartheid system. we do not share the same values WE ARE REVOLTED BY THE KILLING OF CHILDREN INTENTIANALLY AS A MORALE CRUSHER jews are only concerned with whether they can get away with it without the soft americans finding out, jews in israel burn the new testament in ceromonies,spit on christians and cross proccessions, and allow no public christmas symbols and crosses are banned, yet they force judaism and hannakha symbols on us in america through the adl while banning manger scenes,rabbis who instruct all jews in israel openly call for extermination of all palestinians and cite talmudic precedent. AMERICANS DO NOT SUPPORT ISRAEL only jews in america do and aipac whos blackmailing controll of congress is now creating a groundswell of hate towards them and their supporters is soon to experience a massive backlash.

Matthew16 Author Profile Page:

Friends,
To refute York, Rick, et al: there are those who support Israel who are neither Jewish nor employed to defend the Jewish people. Many people of good conscience support Israel because: a) Israel is a democratic state amidst a sea of tyranny; b) the people of Israel generally share our values; c) Israel opposes terrorism, which in their neighborhood is conducted by HAMAS, Hezb'ollah, et al, and poses an existential threat to their very existence.

The putative "Palestinian" people have been unwilling to live in peace alongside their Jewish neighbors. When given the opportunity, they elected to government a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel. If the Arab Muslim population of Israel continues to act as a fifth column inside Israel, they ought not be surprised if the Israelis decide to expel those unwilling to live in peace. For far less cause, the Arab Muslim countries and Persia expelled the Jews. If Arab Muslims find "population transfer" acceptable when it is forced on the Jews, then why is it not acceptable when imposed on the Arab Muslims?

York, the US was attacked on 11 September 2001 because the US supported the House of Saud, part of which support included the basing of troops in Saudi Arabia in support of operations to contain Saddam Hussein. Other reasons were of far lesser importance to bin-Laden than the supreme affront of "infidels" on Muslim land - pre-2001 AQ propaganda focused on this reason far more than US support for Israel.

Peace,
Matthew

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Ricky,
What you know about geopolitics would fit into a thimble.
LOL

yorkville7 Author Profile Page:

do jews care at all that we americans lost 3,000 of our citizens because we support israel??? i think thats what infuriates americans the mostm thenotion that they continue to massacre arabs and threaten iran daily without caring in the least that if they attack iran our soldiers will be sitting ducks for iranian bombs in iraq.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

yorkville7 :

Ooo! Ooo! (hand waving in air)
Please explain why, with all the Israel and AIPAC shills on the internet, 99.9% of the posters are rabid Jew-haters.
Just wondering.
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:


rick22407 :

LOL. I don't hate you little Ricky, I pity you for your stupidity and ignorance. You can't help
yourself, I fully understand.
Everything I said about you is the absolute truth.
I don't know why you are such a Jew-hater but, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.
LOL

yorkville7 Author Profile Page:

think about it if you took out the pro israel shills that are sent to this thread by the JEWISH INTERNET DEFENSE LEAGUE,THE ISRAELI MEGAPHONE,STAND WITH US,HELP US WIN, ECT all clandestine propaganda organizations that have been set up by jewish organizations to influence public opinion on the internet while pretending to be non jewish americans WE WOULD SEE THE TRUTH THAT THERE IS NO SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL IN AMERICA.a people who have to set up propagandea organizations to hide their actions cannot live in 21st century society among enlightened decent people

CrazyDream Author Profile Page:

All hypothesis here advocating either 1 or 2 state(s) solutions. I wonder, why nobody here is presumably thinking of a 3 state solution (West bank, Israel, Gaza strip)? If not seemingly probable, isn't it possible either?

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Israel reserving judgment on Hamas-Fatah reconciliation bid

Herb Keinon , THE JERUSALEM POST, Feb. 23, 2009

…US Middle East envoy George Mitchell, who is scheduled to arrive Thursday for his second visit to the region since being appointed to the post by President Barack Obama, indicated last week that the US supported Egyptian efforts at a Fatah-Hamas reconciliation.

This position, confirmed by PA officials, represents a break from the Bush administration policy, which opposed Hamas's inclusion in a PA government.

Egypt has invited representatives of Hamas, Fatah and several other Palestinian groups to unity talks due to begin in Cairo on Wednesday.

"What are the conditions?" [one Israeli diplomatic] official asked. "Does reconciliation mean that Hamas will accept the Annapolis process and the international community's three preconditions for legitimacy or does it mean Hamas will influence Fatah? Does it mean that Fatah will get back control of Gaza or that Hamas will win a foothold in the West Bank?" …

The official said Israel was not concerned that the US would initiate direct talks with Hamas and that what was more realistic at this time was to expect the US to say publicly that it would be willing to bring Hamas into the diplomatic process if it accepted the three conditions…

The official said that both the US and the Europeans were looking for a way out of the current diplomatic impasse, believing that one way forward would be to fold Hamas back into the PA so diplomatic talks could be resumed with one central address.

[Don’t you think it’s about time that we recognize the duly elected government of the Palestinian people Timmy boy? Forget about Hamas ever recognizing the right of the so-called “State of Israel” to exist on Palestinian land. That would mean accepting the right of Israel to dispossess millions of Palestinian refugees and pen them up in concentration camps. That would be expected of the collaborator Abbas and his Fatah or the PNA; not Hamas, the defender of the property and human rights of the Palestinian people.]

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Whew…talk about pathological hater…

Teddy boy @ February 22, 2009 5:49 PM: “You are a disgusting and stupid Jew-hater. Your sanctimonious concern for the Palestinians is nothing but a smoke-screen to hide your personal pathology.”

Teddy boy @ February 21, 2009 10:03 PM: “…they are bone-deep anti-Semites… retarded children… Amvi and "Tricky Ricky"…”

Teddy boy @ February 20, 2009 10:41 AM: “…for you and the rest of your dimwit friends. http://newmedia.funnyjunk.com/pictures/The_Finger.jpg”

Teddy boy @ February 19, 2009 10:26 PM: “…you and the rest of the nitwit Jew-haters on this blog…”

Teddy boy @ February 18, 2009 10:36 AM: “You are so full of cr*p it's flowing out of your ears… You are an ignorant bigot… You are also a fool…

Teddy boy @ February 17, 2009 9:23 PM: “Or perhaps you're not stupid, maybe you're just a liar?” …

Teddy boy @ February 17, 2009 9:11 PM: “You are an opinionated know-nothing…”

Teddy boy @ February 17, 2009 7:26 PM: “your galloping stupidity is on full display here”

Teddy boy @ February 16, 2009 6:47 PM: “your galloping stupidity is on full display here”

[Ah yes, the eternal whine of the Zionist… “If you don’t agree that I have the right to establish my apartheid, racist so-called “State of Israel” on Palestinian land, then you are… a disgusting and stupid Jew-hater with a personal pathology… a bone-deep anti-Semite… a dimwit… a nitwit Jew-hater… so full of cr*p it's flowing out of your ears… an ignorant bigot… a fool… a liar… an opinionated know-nothing… of galloping stupidity…” And oh by the way, since no one approves of your apartheid, racist, so-called “State of Israel” your little tirade is aimed at the entire world.]

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

The Two-State solution is not workable. The only solution is a Single-State bounded by Lebanon and Syria to the north, Jordan to the east, Egypt to the south, and the Mediterranean to the west.

And fortunately Teddy boy, it will not take long to arrive at the One-State solution. In 40 years, the end of the oil and natural gas era will be at hand, the wells will be empty or nearly so. Oil will be so expensive that we will have long since gained energy independence from the Middle East. The next generation of Americans will have absolutely no motivation or desire to continue our unconditional support of the apartheid and racist so-called “State of Israel”.

With Russia, China, and Iran being pulled together as allies with the Central Asian ‘Stans’, including Pakistan and Afghanistan as members and prospective members of the SCO; and with Turkey, Syria and probably Iraq signing on as well; the future existence of Israel is not a good long-term bet. Israel currently imports 80% of its oil and is dependent on Russia for most of that; hardly a reliable source for a US and NATO ally.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

rick22407 :
Teddy says:

“They all do that Nadine. The problem is that either they are shills for Arab propaganda sites, or they are bone-deep anti-Semites…

[There you go again…the eternal whine of the Zionist…]
______________________________________________

I'm not whining about anything. I'm stating it loud and clear, in boldface type:
You are a disgusting and stupid Jew-hater. Your sanctimonious concern for the Palestinians is nothing but a smoke-screen to hide your pesonal pathology.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

rick22407 :

Come on now. I agreed several times that many of the world's nations were upset by Israel's attacks, but their being sympathetic to the Palestinians, does not translate into any kind of support for Hamas.
Unlike you, most of the world does not equate the Palestinians with their Hamas oppressors.
Hey, I'm sympathetic to the Palestinians too. I think they've suffered long enough, but it's a problem that the Arabs have to solve through negotiation, and as long as Hamas remains obstreperous, they'll simply continue to suffer.
You can't demand that Israel solve the Arab's problems for them.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Asian governments roundly condemn Israel's 'crimes' in Gaza Strip

By The Associated Press in Haaretz

Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has described Israel's air assaults on Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip as a crime against humanity.

China said it is shocked by Israel's attack on Gaza and has called for an immediate halt to the military campaign that has killed over 300 people.

China, a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, has traditionally supported the Palestinian cause.

Governments across Asia called for an immediate halt to Israeli airstrikes in Gaza that have killed nearly 300 Palestinians, with some accusing the country of crimes against humanity.

Israel has vowed to press ahead with the campaign despite enraged protests across the Arab world and some Asian countries.

Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari condemned the attacks and appealed for the cessation of hostilities, saying they violated the UN Charter, a Foreign Ministry statement said.

"Violence aggravates conflicts and never solves them," Pakistan's Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi said, expressing fears Israel's incursions would undermine attempts to negotiate a Middle East peace.

[Continued on next post]

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

[Continued from previous post]

In Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim-majority nation, nearly 1,000 students waved Palestinian flags and chanted "Israel is the real terrorist" at the Hotel Indonesian traffic circle in downtown Jakarta.

"The Western countries are the concubines of America and the Jews," said rally coordinator Ferry Putra as the crowd chanted Free Palestine, destroy Israel.

The Indonesian government, which does not have diplomatic relations with Israel, pledged $1 million in cash and $200,000 in medical supplies for the victims of the bombings.

The vast majority of Muslims in Indonesia practice a moderate form of the faith. Although most back the creation of a Palestinian state, they do not support violence against Israel.

Government and opposition leaders of mainly Muslim Malaysia denounced the raids on the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip as a "crime against humanity" with Deputy Foreign Minister Abdul Rahim Bakri saying they were "tantamount to genocide."

Malaysia, a staunch supporter of a Palestinian state that also does not have formal political ties with Israel, said "there is no excuse for the disproportionate, indiscriminate and excessive use of force in Gaza."

India urges an "immediate end to the use of force against Palestinian civilians," a Foreign Ministry statement said.

You are the case… :>)

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

rick22407 :

LOL
I rest my case.
LOL

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Teddy says:

“They all do that Nadine. The problem is that either they are shills for Arab propaganda sites, or they are bone-deep anti-Semites…

[There you go again…the eternal whine of the Zionist…]

Their natural reaction is to…begin personal vilifications…

[Really Teddy, I’m glad no one could ever accuse your good self of that…]

“…these lost souls…retarded children… bone-deep anti-Semites…Amvi and ‘Tricky Ricky’ …”

“…those who would defend themselves are labeled imperialists, Zionist killers and thugs, American Bullies, and a like collection of stupid slogans.”

[Defend themselves…really…is that what you call the slaughter of innocents using American supplied F16 fighter/bombers and attack helicopters?]

[Definition: An anti-Semite is someone that the Jews hate. Another way of putting it: An anti-Semite used to be someone who does not like Jews; now it is someone who the Jews do not like; i.e. anyone who doesn’t accept their “right” to form their apartheid, racist, so-called “State of Israel” on Palestinian land; i.e. most everyone.]

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Here is what the Obama administration will be up against if he caves in to the unimaginable pressure that will be brought from the Israeli hard right - from Likud supremo Bibi Netanyahu to the hardline, former Moldova bouncer Avigdor Lieberman - and their minions operating in the Israel lobby in Washington.

Iran is getting closer and closer to Russia. Russia currently holds the presidency of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) - the Eurasian answer to NATO not only in terms of security but also in the economic and energy spheres. The SCO unites Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, with Iran and Pakistan as observers. In an interview with RIA Novosti, Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said, "Iran has officially addressed SCO members and expects its observer status to be finally upgraded to full membership during Russia's chairmanship period."

This is what it's all about in Eurasia - the inexorable march of Asian integration, via the Asian Energy Security Grid and, in security terms, via the SCO. Both China and Russia are deeply connected with Iran. China has signed mega-multibillion dollar deals to be supplied by Iranian oil and gas while selling weapons and myriad goods; and Russia is bound to sell more weapons and is already selling nuclear energy technology.

This, along with the privilege of being attacked by Islamic extremists on 9/11, is all the result of our ill advised and unconditional support for the apartheid, racist, so-called “State of Israel. Wake up Obama.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:


NadineSC :

To Amiennava:
I notice a pattern in our back and forth. You raise some point, I answer it, then you are off to a new point, you never respond to my previous answers. I answered you on the creation of the British Mandate and on the Camp David/Taba talks, then you never mention them again. Why is that?
_______________________________________________

They all do that Nadine. The problem is that either they are shills for Arab propaganda sites, or they are bone-deep anti-Semites. In either case, they have been totally brainwashed and are psychologically incapable of dealing with truly factual material when it is presented to them. Their natural reaction is to simply ignore anything which might cause mental pain and anguish, and to either change the subject or begin personal vilifications, usually ending with what a bloodthirsty person you are because you only want to kill babies or something.
It's a complete pathology, totally unamenable to logic, or facts, or anything even faintly approaching reality.
They inhabit a toxic fantasy world in which Muslim terrorists, responsible for some the worst small scale massacres in the history of mankind are "freedom fighters" and those who would defend themselves are labeled imperialists, Zionist killers and thugs, American Bullies, and a like collection of stupid slogans.
I counselled you once that you were wasting your time with these lost souls, though I do admire your forebearance and patience in answering them. I have a feeling that you must be a registered therapist, dealing with retarded children though, I hasten to add, at least you don't have to worry that any of the kids would try to kill you if they had the chance.
Of course, Amvi and "Tricky Ricky" will bristle at that suggestion, but everyone knows that just beneath the surface of sanctimony lies bitter rage.
I still maintain that the best way to answer these people is with the derision and ridicule which is all that their ignorant arguments and opinions are worth anyway.
Whenever they want to make arguments and discuss issues on the basis of real facts instead of fantasy and ideological slogans, is the day that the derision can stop.
And that's exactly the same solution to the Israel/Palestine problem. As soon as the Palestinians are willing to come to the table with realistic arguments and realistic expectations, peace can start.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Rick,

Gotcha. The Jews should all die or leave, not that you're an anti-Semite or anything. Your sense of fairness just says that Jews should die and Hamas should have perfect freedom to rule the ruins in whatever undemocratic way they like because you wouldn't want to impose Western ideas of human rights on them. Because the Israelis use more water than the Palestinians. There you go, obviously a capital crime.

What you are is pretty obvious to any objective reader by now. Betcha you call yourself a "progressive" too.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Gabrael,

Out of 7 million Israeli citizens, over 1 million are Muslim, Druze or Christian.

Out of 30 million Saudi Arabian citizens, 0 are Christian, Druze or Jewish. Not a single one! Not allowed!

As you point out, even the flag of Saudi Arabia has the words of the Koran on it.

It takes some real pretzel logic to conclude that Israel IS a religious state but Saudi Arabia ISN'T.

gabraeal Author Profile Page:

another correction

gabraeal :
CORRECTION
I am writing my comment in the name of th GOD of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob( Israel )
In all over the world wide there is no any nation any country which it's nationality is by religion . For Example Saudi Arabia is Islamic country. In it's flag is wrote Laa Ilaaha illa-llaah , Muhammadu-RRasuula-llaah . That is the word of Islam . Also Iran , Pakistan , Mauritania and other Islamic countries are there . But no one of them is it's nationality in Islam .that means all Muslims around the world aren't citizens in these countries.
The same in the European Union there are countries that the cross is in their flags but the Christianity isn't the nationality of them.that means the Christians in all over the world aren't citizens in these countries . another example as I believe that the name England is containing two words Engle and Land it 's Engle-land which means the land of Gospel .but it's nationality isn't in Christian religion and all Christians are not citizens in England , United Kingdom Nor any country in the European Communication.
In the other side the same The Hinduism in India and the Buddhists in China Japan etc. so why the Zionists want to create and found a Jewish State in in Palestine the land that they occupied it from the original citizens I mean the Palestinians .
That is beyond the low , Beyond Human rights and against the international peace.It's Madness , worst than Fishiesm and Nazism .


Posted February 21, 2009 7:25 PM

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Nadine,

The Arabs should win and the Jews should die or leave…

[Yes…the Jews are the invaders, the aggressors, who slaughter innocent women and children by the thousands, who have dispossessed millions of Palestinians of their land and homes and penned them up in horrid concentration camps.]

…even though you AGREE that the Arabs will turn Tel Aviv into a violent welfare squat like Gaza!

[No…I don’t agree to that. The Palestinians, like the Jews, are very intelligent and capable people, who given half a chance will produce a wealthy and productive society. After all, the Jews and Palestinians are of the same genetic pool, with the same ancestors dating back to Abraham. The problems in Gaza and the West Bank are due solely to the Israeli-imposed blockades, checkpoints, and unfair distribution of resources like water and electricity and petrol; not to mention the continuous assassination of the leadership.

My, my, my. It is now "liberal" and "progressive" to openly cheer the victory of theocratic fascists who will engage in wholesale slaughter and total ethnic cleansing. So long as the dead are only Jews.

[No…I don’t “cheer the victory of theocratic fascists who will engage in wholesale slaughter and total ethnic cleansing”; i.e. the Jews.]

The oldest hatred didn't get that way without being adaptable.

[Ah yes, the whine of the Zionist, if you don’t support my right to establish my apartheid, racist state, then you are just an anti-Semite Jew-hater.]

gabraeal Author Profile Page:

CORRECTION
I am writing my comment in the name of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob( Israel )
In all over the world wide there is no any nation any country which it's nationality is by religion . For Example Saudi Arabia is Islamic country. In it's flag is wrote Laa Ilaaha illa-llaah , Muhammadu-RRasuula-llaah . That is the word of Islam . Also Iran , Pakistan , Mauritania and other Islamic countries are there . But no one of them is it's nationality in Islam .that means all Muslims around the world aren't citizens in these countries.
The same in the European Union there are countries that the cross is in their flags but the Christianity isn't the nationality of them.that means the Christians in all over the world aren't citizens in these countries . another example as I believe that the name England is containing two words Engle and Land it 's Engle-land which means the land of Gospel .but it's nationality isn't in Christian religion and all Christians are not citizens in England , United Kingdom Nor any country in the European Communication.
In the other side the same The Hinduism in India and the Buddhists in China Japan etc. so why the Zionists want to create and found a Jewish State in in Palestine the land that they occupied it from the original citizens I mean the Palestinians .
That is beyond the low , Beyond Human rights and against the international peace.It's Madness , worst than Fishiesm and Nazism .

gabraeal Author Profile Page:

I am writing my comment in the name of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob( Israel )
In all over the world wide there is no any nation any country which it's nationality is by religion . For Example Saudi Arabia is Islamic country. In it's flag is wrote Laa Ilaaha illa-llaah , Muhammadu-RRasuulallaah . That is the word of Islam . Also Iran , Pakistan , Mauritania and other Islamic countries are there . But no one of them is it's nationality in Islam .that means all Muslims around the world aren't citizens in these countries.
The same in the European Union there are countries that the cross in their flags but the Christianity isn't the nationality of them.that means the Christians in all over the world are citizens in these countries . another example as I believe that the name England is containing two words Engle and Land it 's Engle-land which means the land of Gospel .but it's nationality isn't in Christian religion and all Christians are not citizens in England , United Kingdom Nor any country in the European Communication.
In the other side the same The Hinduism in India and the Buddhists in China Japan etc. so why the Zionists want to create and found a Jewish State in in Palestine the land that they occupied it from the original citizens I mean the Palestinians .
That is beyond the low , Beyond Human rights and against the international peace.
It's Madness , worst than Fishiesm and Nazism .

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Nadine,

Well, well. I thank you for your honesty. So, you are not for human rights, after all. Hamas may kill as many Fatah members as they choose, who are we to impose our "democratic ideals" on them? Ditto, I presume for Fatah when they kill Hamas.

Reports from Gaza and the West Bank say that Hamas has killed or kneecapped hundreds of Fatah guys in Gaza, and Fatah has repaid the compliment in full in the West Bank. But not to worry, the only Arabs you lament for are those who are killed by Jews.

Thank you for making yourself clear. You just want the Arabs to win, Hamas, Al Qaeda, and Fatah, it makes no difference. All the blame is on the US or Israel no matter how they behave.
________________________________________
This is an odd role for an Israeli apologist to be taking all of a sudden…this great concern for human rights.

At present, Israelis receive five times as much water per person as Palestinians. In Gaza, the disparity is even more striking, with settlers getting seven times as much water as their Palestinian neighbors. Stated differently, on average, Israelis get 92.5 gallons per person per day, while Palestinians in the West Bank get 18.5 gallons per person per day. The minimum quantity of water recommended by the U.S. Agency for International Development and the World Health Organization for household and urban use alone is 26.4 gallons per person per day...

A variety of explanations have been offered as to why Israel is reluctant to redistribute water resources. The most obvious reason is that doing so would require a change in Israeli lifestyles: no more private swimming pools and green lawns…

Yehezkel Lein from B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, explains the origins of this discrepancy succinctly: "Underlying Israel's water policy in the Occupied Territories was the desire to preserve the quantity of water it uses.”

Darned, it’s not just those troublesome Arab propagandists after all. Israeli Human Rights activists want in on the action too.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Amviennava,

Nadine: Hello again. You posted 'Secular democracy is not on Hamas' wishlist; like other Islamists, they advocate elections on the "one man, one vote, one time" principle. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to run for reelection.' I always noe our insistence to refuse to live by ourwords, but condemn those with whom we disagree. Case in point is that Hammas won the freely held elections in 2006. WE proceeded to disagree with the result, and have decided that the losers of the elections are the true representatives of the popular will!

That is not true. We did not refuse to acknowledge that Hamas had won the elections which Condi Rice so stupidly pressed for; we just demanded that Hamas uphold the previously signed PA agreements, which recognized Israel. Had they done so, they could have had open borders and recognition. Hamas reneged on all the agreements, then threw a bunch of Fatah guys off the tops of buildings and took over completely. No more elections for them!

But it is now the "liberal" line (so-called "liberal" in truth the exact opposite of what used to be meant by the word) to expect Palestinians to break every agreement, which of course means they would be dumb to ever honor their word - why should they, when their intransigence is rewarded with endless foreign aid and blame only on Israel?

I notice a pattern in our back and forth. You raise some point, I answer it, then you are off to a new point, you never respond to my previous answers. I answered you on the creation of the British Mandate and on the Camp David/Taba talks, then you never mention them again. Why is that?

gabraeal Author Profile Page:

Those who are thinking that Israelis only are Semitics are wrong. The Arabs , Eritreans and Ethiopians are Semitics too. the Land which the Zionists occupied was named as Palestine for thousands of years. the name Israel is a name of Jacob the prophet of God . He is the son of Isaac and Isaac is the son of Abraham (the father of prophets )That means Israel is Jacob and the father of Josef and his 11 brothers who lived for hundreds of years in Egypt .
( Misr ) so to name the Nation of Palestine Israelas a name of land ,nation or state is creating a great change in history .Becaouse In Islam religious no one can say any bad word about any prophet including Israel ( Jacob ). Who did that is a sinner according to Islam religion .For that case it's better to those who are fighting to live in one nation called Palestine or to leave to their home land which they come from than killing children,women , old men , the adults and fathers to cause at the end a world war among Christians and Muslims. Those Zionists are anti peace ,anti- love and the anti of the economical development of the world wide.Please I am requesting the Western countries who brought them to Palestine to help them again to go back to their home lands before the fire which they are flaming burn them and burn the world wide too.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Rick, you said:

[That’s OK by me. It is not up to us to force our democratic ideals on the Islamic world or anyone else. Let Hamas, PNA and the Israelis fight their own battles and choose their own system of governance.]

...

[I agree. The smart thing for the non-Arab Israelis to do would be to begin the evacuation now, to come join their 5 million brethren in New York, LA and Florida. I’m sure they will be much happier here, without those troublesome Katyusha and Qassam rockets and mortars incoming all the time. They hardly ever hit anything of value I know, but they seem to really get on one’s nerves.]

Well, well. I thank you for your honesty. So, you are not for human rights, after all. Hamas may kill as many Fatah members as they choose, who are we to impose our "democratic ideals" on them? Ditto, I presume for Fatah when they kill Hamas.

Reports from Gaza and the West Bank say that Hamas has killed or kneecapped hundreds of Fatah guys in Gaza, and Fatah has repaid the compliment in full in the West Bank. But not to worry, the only Arabs you lament for are those who are killed by Jews.

Thank you for making yourself clear. You just want the Arabs to win, Hamas, Al Qaeda, and Fatah, it makes no difference. All the blame is on the US or Israel no matter how they behave.

The Arabs should win and the Jews should die or leave, even though you AGREE that the Arabs will turn Tel Aviv into a violent welfare squat like Gaza!

My, my, my. It is now "liberal" and "progressive" to openly cheer the victory of theocratic fascists who will engage in wholesale slaughter and total ethnic cleansing. So long as the dead are only Jews.

The oldest hatred didn't get that way without being adaptable.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Storm brews between US and Israel

By Jim Lobe in today’s Asia Times

WASHINGTON - After eight years of the closest possible relations, the United States and Israel may be headed for a period of increased strain, particularly as it appears likely that whatever Israeli government emerges from last week's election will be more hawkish than its predecessor…

"Given the philosophical differences between Kadima and Likud on peace issues, such a unity government would be hard-pressed to make the historic decisions needed to reach a deal with the Palestinians," wrote former US Middle East peace negotiator, Aaron David Miller, in the Jewish publication Forward this week.

But Obama and his Middle East Special Envoy George Mitchell may indeed be willing to exert pressure on Israel - among other things, by tabling their own views about a final peace agreement and how precisely it might be achieved - especially if ongoing Arab efforts to reconcile Hamas and Fatah in a new coalition government succeed.

If all goes well on that front, the Arab League, fortified by a developing rapprochement between Syria and Saudi Arabia, could announce the latest version of its 2002 peace plan at next month's summit in Doha, according to Marc Lynch, a George Washington University specialist on Arab politics.

Such a move "could galvanize the situation and put the onus on whatever Israeli government emerges to respond positively", he wrote on his widely read blog on the Foreign Policy website this week.

"If you have a unified Palestinian government and a unified Arab move for peace," added Daniel Levy, a former Israeli peace negotiator, "then it's much more likely that Obama will step up his own efforts…

The result could be a serious test between the next Israeli government and its influential US advocates. The Obama administration clearly believes that real progress toward resolving the 60-year-old conflict is critical both to restoring Washington's credibility among the Arab states and curbing the further radicalization of the region's population - particularly in the wake of Israel's recent military offensive in Gaza.

[Continued on next post]

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

[Continued from previous post]

A more likely source of tension between the US and Israel, however, will be Iran's nuclear program.

"It's very important to realize that Iran is going to be the most likely issue on which Israel and the United States will have a serious difference of opinion, if not a confrontation, in the next year," warned former US ambassador Samuel Lewis after the Israeli elections.

Although Netanyahu has been the most outspoken, virtually the entire Israeli political and military establishment has described Iran's alleged nuclear ambitions as an "existential" threat to the Jewish state...

The new administration's conviction is that Afghanistan and Pakistan - which, like Iraq, also border Iran - constitute the true "central front in the war on terror".

Top US civilian and military officials dealing with "AfPak", as the new administration has dubbed the two countries, have made clear that they hope to enlist Iran, with which Washington cooperated in ousting the Taliban in 2001, in helping to stabilize Afghanistan.

Most regional specialists, including Bruce Riedel, who co-chairs the White House's "AfPak" policy review, and John Brennan, Obama's top counter-terrorism adviser, have long argued that Iran's cooperation would make Washington's effort to stabilize the region and ultimately defeat al-Qaeda markedly easier while, conversely, its active opposition, as in Iraq, is likely to make the task considerably more difficult.

That assessment has, if anything, gained strength in just the past few weeks as Washington has scrambled to secure new supply lines into land-locked Afghanistan after a key bridge in Pakistan's Khyber Pass was destroyed by Taliban militants there and Kyrgyzstan threatened to end Washington's access to its Manas air base.

While US efforts to compensate have focused so far on the overland route through Russia and the Central Asian "Stans", a growing number of voices have noted that a much less costly and more efficient alternative route would run from Iran's southern ports into western Afghanistan.

Obama will surely make it more difficult for Netanyahu or anyone else in the next Israeli government to "harness the US administration to stop the threat".

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

I agree…that is a good idea and could work. The entire original British Mandate of Palestine, including all that is now the so-called “State of Israel”, the West Bank and Gaza could be given to Jordan to govern. The two parts of Jordan, the parts east and west of the Jordan River could then be treated as confederated states of the nation of Jordan and allowed to be self governed in the manner of their choice.

Of course since the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan is a constitutional monarchy with representative government. The reigning monarch would continue to be the head of state, the chief executive and the commander-in-chief of the armed forces. The king would exercise his executive authority through the prime ministers and the Council of Ministers, or cabinet. The cabinet, meanwhile, would be responsible before the elected House of Deputies which, along with the House of Notables (Senate), would constitute the legislative branch of the government. The judicial branch is and would continue to be an independent branch of the government.

Daho Author Profile Page:

The exchanges continue to interpret the situation according to one's own preferences. An item that should be taken in consideration and usually ignored is that as a region of the Ottoman Empire, Palestine was constituted by the whole of Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza.
Under the mandate received from the League of Nations, England decided, for its political and economic interests in the region, - the mandate did not give it the right to do it - to divide Palestine, giving the 'Kingdom of Trans-Jordan' to the Hachemite Abdullah.This was meant to compensate him of the promise that he would receive Irak, finally given to Feycal. Consequently, the present Palestine could merge or federate with Jordan, and they would have lots of space to establish their population and the possibility to build a viable State.

Martial Author Profile Page:

Partitions separate warring ethnicities, attempting, in this case, to create as purely Jewish and as purely Arab a State pair as possible. Reasonable is ceding de facto Arab parts of Israel to the Arab land and annexing de facto Jewish parts of the West Bank to Israel.

Three alternatives: 1) Muslims in Palestine can accept Jews in Israel who have lived there for generations and accept Israel as a place of refuge for persecuted Jews; 2) Muslims in Palestine can expell all Jews who did not have at least one ancestor living in Palestine in 1895; 3) Muslims in Palestine can expell all Jews irrespective of ancestry.

Alternative 3 is the favored choice throughout Arab lands. It will eventually become reality. After that point, Shi'ites and Sunnis will kill each other with even more reckless abandon than now exists. No one will care; no one cares today even though the carnage is vastly greater than that experienced at any time by Palestinians.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

In a Letter, a Leader of Hamas Makes an Appeal to Obama

By ETHAN BRONNER and TAGHREED EL-KHODARY in today’s NY Times

JERUSALEM — A Hamas leader has asked President Obama to engage with his militant movement, rather than marginalize, it in a letter that was passed through United Nations officials in Gaza to Senator John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts, during a visit there on Thursday.

Mr. Kerry said Friday that he did not know the letter’s contents and had given it to the American Consulate in Jerusalem so it would be sent to the White House. But the letter’s author, Ahmed Yousef, the Hamas deputy foreign minister, said by telephone that it was a two-page document urging the new administration to make a change from the Bush administration.

“There can be no peace without Hamas,” Mr. Yousef said he had written. “We congratulated Mr. Obama on his presidency and reminded him that he should live up to his promise to bring real change to the region. The Palestinian issue is the key to resolving all the problems in the area. We also said that Mr. Kerry’s visit to Gaza showed that the new administration has a clarity of vision and is not controlled by Israeli propaganda.” …

Mr. Kerry, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said he had visited to see for himself the devastation in Gaza following Israel’s offensive there and that his trip did not represent a change in policy toward Hamas.

Still, it was the first time a senior American official had gone to Gaza in several years. Former Senator George J. Mitchell, the new American special envoy to the Middle East, has expressed support for reconciliation between Hamas and the Fatah movement of the Palestinian Authority, and the visit could signal the start of a re-evaluation of American policy toward the Palestinian question.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Netanyahu, Once Hawkish, Now Touts Pragmatism

By ETHAN BRONNER in today’s NY Times [excerpt]

… “Likud as a party has made a major transformation in the last 15 years from being rigidly committed to retaining all the land of Israel to looking pragmatically at how to retain for Israel defensible borders in a very uncertain Middle East,” said Dore Gold, a former Israeli ambassador to the United Nations and a close associate.

For Mr. Netanyahu, that has meant accepting that much of the West Bank will be part of a future Palestinian state, but with Israel keeping control of the borders, airspace and electromagnetic frequencies. The state would also have no military, by his reckoning.

Whether such a deal would ever be acceptable to the Palestinians is far from clear. Equally unclear is whether the government he forms will allow him the freedom of action to go even that far.

daniel12 Author Profile Page:

Testing 123 testing 123

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

rick22407 @February 20, 2009 7:28 PM: As before, Netanyahu's government will be narrow, right-wing, and pretty much the death knell of any solution (let's face it, he does nto want a solution, anyway). Just like the first time around. Of course, as is typical, it will be the Palestinians' fault, as Israel 'does not have a partner for peace'.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Netanyahu to Form New Israel Government

JERUSALEM — Benjamin Netanyahu, leader of the conservative Likud Party, was invited by Israel’s president, Shimon Peres, on Friday to take the lead in assembling the next government…

Mr. Netanyahu and Ms. Livni have agreed to meet on Sunday, but the negotiations between them are likely to be tough and the chances of success are unclear…

A broad government joined by the center and left would likely promote a more pragmatic agenda and avoid friction with Israel’s most important ally, the United States…

In the last few days, many here have predicted that Mr. Netanyahu would be left with no choice but to form a narrow government with those he has termed his “natural partners,” parties representing the ultra-orthodox and the right…

Mr. Netanyahu’s vision of unity seemed far from assured…

Ms. Livni noted on Thursday that Mr. Netanyahu “meanwhile refuses to talk about a two-state solution.” …

A narrow government would be less stable, with Mr. Netanyahu having to balance the often competing demands of small parties. A right-wing agenda would also set Israel on a possible collision course with the new administration in the United States, which has pledged an active and aggressive pursuit of peace.

Shalom Yerushalmi, a columnist in Friday’s Maariv newspaper, described such a government as Mr. Netanyahu’s “nightmare.”

“The narrow government he formed in 1996 fell apart in stages,” Mr. Yerushalmi noted. “Netanyahu swore that he would not make a narrow government again, and would never again be the prime minister of half the people.”

[What do you think AM? Will Mr. Netanyahu succeed in forming a broad based unity government, or will it be narrow right-wing. I expect narrow right-wing with the (temporary at least) death of the two-state solution.]

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

Sincerest apologies everyone: I had intended to include a response to 'Rick' and fogot to delete an excerpt from his post.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

Nadine: Hello again. You posted 'Secular democracy is not on Hamas' wishlist; like other Islamists, they advocate elections on the "one man, one vote, one time" principle. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to run for reelection.' I always noe our insistence to refuse to live by ourwords, but condemn those with whom we disagree. Case in point is that Hammas won the freely held elections in 2006. WE proceeded to disagree with the result, and have decided that the losers of the elections are the true representatives of the popular will!

AS for uncivilized behavior ... WE invaded Irak, for no reason, and made refugees of 20 to 25 % of its population! (yes, I know about 9/11 .. that was the event when Saudis based in Afghanistan attacked us - note that there is no Irak in there).

Somehow, our behavior at times makes us out to be both the pot and the kettle.

[That’s OK by me. It is not up to us to force our democratic ideals on the Islamic world or anyone else. Let Hamas, PNA and the Israelis fight their own battles and choose their own system of governance.]

"The new Palestine would contain NO Jews, just as none live in Gaza now, and it would shortly turn into another Gaza, no matter how many resources it inherited from the Israelis. Just as the greenhouses of Gaza were destroyed for spite, so would be the towers of Tel Aviv."

[I agree. The smart thing for the non-Arab Israelis to do would be to begin the evacuation now, to come join their 5 million brethren in New York, LA and Florida. I’m sure they will be much happier here, without those troublesome Katyusha and Qassam rockets and mortars incoming all the time. They hardly ever hit anything of value I know, but they seem to really get on one’s nerves.]

Continued next post…


Posted February 20, 2009 6:12 PM

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

rick22407 @February 20, 2009 4:03 AM: Hello. You posted to 'Ted': '...I don’t care what AM says. You are ever bit as mature as a 13 year old. ...' I admire though not envy your perseverence. But was that a compliment, or a back-handed compliment?

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Continued from previous post…

“But were that to happen, the surrounding Arab states would all discover, as Egypt already has, how unhappy they would be to have Iran's proxy so powerfully on their doorsteps, and how threatened they would be by the lack of Israel as an all purpose whipping boy. Nothing is more threatening to these regimes than having their people looking at their own conditions, instead of fixated in hatred of an external enemy!”

[How very true. The day will soon come, with or without Israel’s presence, when these feckless leaders will be overthrown by the people. New leadership will be established which is responsive to the needs and best interests of the people, rather than kowtowing to the demands of the US/Israeli axis of terror.]

“No, no, no. It cannot be permitted. The Arab regimes actually have the biggest stake in keeping Israel alive - not happy, but alive - and should they conceive that Iran seriously threatens its existence, you will see them become Israel's de facto allies, as Egypt already has in this last war with Hamas.”

[Yes, yes, yes. It cannot be stopped. Russia and China are already supplying Syria, Iran and Hamas with modern weaponry and nuclear technology in the case of Iran and probably Syria. These nations would like nothing better than to see the USA and Israel driven from the region, and will continue to work to make it so.]

“So neither those who root for Israel, as I do, or those who root for Al Qaeda and Hamas, as you do, will get their wishes in this matter.”

[I don’t root for al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda is empowered by our support for the apartheid, racist, so-called “State of Israel” in its genocidal occupation and torture of the Palestinian people; and our own unnecessary and illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq. When we bring our troops home and stop medaling in Middle Eastern affairs and those of other Muslim nations, then al-Qaeda will no longer be empowered.]

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Nadine,

"If Palestine "between the river and the sea" were ever established, it would be run by the same charming people who are currently running Gaza, the ones who have just implemented a number of Sharia laws, including death by cruxifiction (!) as a punishment for unIslamic activies. Secular democracy is not on Hamas' wishlist; like other Islamists, they advocate elections on the "one man, one vote, one time" principle. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to run for reelection."

[That’s OK by me. It is not up to us to force our democratic ideals on the Islamic world or anyone else. Let Hamas, PNA and the Israelis fight their own battles and choose their own system of governance.]

"The new Palestine would contain NO Jews, just as none live in Gaza now, and it would shortly turn into another Gaza, no matter how many resources it inherited from the Israelis. Just as the greenhouses of Gaza were destroyed for spite, so would be the towers of Tel Aviv."

[I agree. The smart thing for the non-Arab Israelis to do would be to begin the evacuation now, to come join their 5 million brethren in New York, LA and Florida. I’m sure they will be much happier here, without those troublesome Katyusha and Qassam rockets and mortars incoming all the time. They hardly ever hit anything of value I know, but they seem to really get on one’s nerves.]

Continued next post…

gabraeal Author Profile Page:

This is one of my comments about the article and the comments of 1humanity . Please read them deeply
Israeli Election Reflects Resurgence of the Right

gabraeal wrote:
The Zionists occupied Palestine Shawn to the the world wide and to the international society that they are anti-peace Zionist military base in Palestine and in the Middle East.The most of these Zionists are not looking Semitics . They look Russians and Europeans .Because they are very white skin and they are too very long . But the real Semitics are looking like the Jews in Yemen , The Jews in Morocco , Yemenis , Ethiopians , Eritreans and as some Spanish's skin and hair owners .
So why the civilized people in the Western countries are Supporting them to kill the Palestinians as they want, When they want , how they want ? I think that It's the end of the global civilization and Peace .For that it's mean they all chooses the way of the end of international peace .
O 'World :
Capitalism .trade, industrialization , farming , banking , truism , media , development , Peace .justice LOVE and etc : BEY BEY It's the End as the end of movies .
The most of my comments and talking about some imaginations about future in the Washingtonpost has been and happened as they mentioned in WP . You can read them in Gabraeal page in WP.

nanabrown63 Author Profile Page:

Poor Thoughtless Ted

You still haven't gone beyond the rebellious critical age !! When you grow up, tell me! But I doubt this can ever happen. Poor thing!!

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Posted on February 20, 2009 10:34

nanabrown63 :
Thoughtless Ted

I think I understand now what’s happening: George Burns was right when he said :
“By the time you're eighty years old you've learned everything. You only have to remember it.”

LOL !
______________________________________________

I got this when I was 13. I figured it was age appropriate for you and the rest of your dimwit friends.
http://newmedia.funnyjunk.com/pictures/The_Finger.jpg
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

rick22407 :
Ted says:

“First of all, I don't know anyone who consider's Iran to be a "terrorist" state, except possibly for Israel.”

“So since it is only Israel's definition, Iran's unpopularity cannot be because it's a terrorist state, so your whole argument just goes right out the window. You do see the logic there, don't you? LOL”

“But leaving it at that wouldn't be much fun. So let me see.”

“A,B,C,D. Iran's negatives stayed the same at 54%, while Israel's actually dropped from 57% to 52%.”

“LOL”

“I think you meant to say the opposite and only pity makes me point that out to you.”
________________________________
Sorry…wrong again Teddy…

Here is the cut and paste from the reference since you were unable to access it…

“Of other countries rated, Iran and Israel are viewed most negatively.”

“Negative views of Iran's influence remained at 54%. But Israel's negative rating went down from 57% to 52%.”

The point is not that that Israel’s negative ratings went down; i.e. it was viewed slightly more positively...a subtle point I know. Its rating is still approximately equal to Iran’s.

And no…Israelis are not the only ones who consider Iran to be a terrorist state. Remember W’s famous “axis of evil” speech (Syria, Iran, North Korea)? About half of Americans fall for that tripe and many others who kowtow to America.

So the polls show that most of the world sees the “State of Israel” as right in there with this so-called axis of evil, and America is almost there as well because of our unconscionable support for and enabling of the atrocities perpetrated on the Palestinian people.
______________________________________________

You're an idiot.
I told my wife to wash my shirt.
LOL

nanabrown63 Author Profile Page:

Thoughtless Ted

I think I understand now what’s happening: George Burns was right when he said :
“By the time you're eighty years old you've learned everything. You only have to remember it.”

LOL !

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Ted says:

“First of all, I don't know anyone who consider's Iran to be a "terrorist" state, except possibly for Israel.”

“So since it is only Israel's definition, Iran's unpopularity cannot be because it's a terrorist state, so your whole argument just goes right out the window. You do see the logic there, don't you? LOL”

“But leaving it at that wouldn't be much fun. So let me see.”

“A,B,C,D. Iran's negatives stayed the same at 54%, while Israel's actually dropped from 57% to 52%.”

“LOL”

“I think you meant to say the opposite and only pity makes me point that out to you.”
________________________________
Sorry…wrong again Teddy…

Here is the cut and paste from the reference since you were unable to access it…

“Of other countries rated, Iran and Israel are viewed most negatively.”

“Negative views of Iran's influence remained at 54%. But Israel's negative rating went down from 57% to 52%.”

The point is not that that Israel’s negative ratings went down; i.e. it was viewed slightly more positively...a subtle point I know. Its rating is still approximately equal to Iran’s.

And no…Israelis are not the only ones who consider Iran to be a terrorist state. Remember W’s famous “axis of evil” speech (Syria, Iran, North Korea)? About half of Americans fall for that tripe and many others who kowtow to America.

So the polls show that most of the world sees the “State of Israel” as right in there with this so-called axis of evil, and America is almost there as well because of our unconscionable support for and enabling of the atrocities perpetrated on the Palestinian people.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Ted says:

“Before I begin, I really want to thank you and the rest of the nitwit Jew-haters on this blog.”

“I am a 69 year old retiree, and I found myself with some free time on my hands, so I thought I'd check on what was happening in the Blogosphere, the new American Democracy in action, where no one has to depend on the media anymore because all the truth is now being expounded by you guys.”

“LOL”

“Excuse me for the delay, but I just got over a long laughing fit.”

“OK, Back to the matter at hand. Anyway, I have never had such a good laugh in my life as I have been having the past few weeks. Unfortunately, you guys are so lame that the laughs come way too easy. Never mind, I'm willing to take whatever I can get.

“LOL”
____________________________________
And we appreciate your taking the time to share with us the knowledge and insight that you have gained over the years. We are all better people for having this experience.

I don’t care what AM says. You are ever bit as mature as a 13 year old.

So don’t worry Teddy boy. I will continue to play with you and will be a much better person for it.

Eat your heart out AM.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Thought I'd repost this above my answer.

rick22407 :

Just as I thought Teddy Boy…

You are a tough nut to crack. Let’s try one something fun and new…logic…LOL…fat chance right?

Step 1… OK…you agree that Iran is a terrorist state by most everyone’s definition right? … at least everyone in the so-called “State of Israel”.

Step 2… Now if A

Step 3… Now here is where it gets difficult…we have to think in abstract concepts.

Step 4… Let A represent Israel.

Step 5… Let B represent Iran.

Step 6… Let C represent Iran’s status as a terrorist state (according to the Zionists anyway)

Step 7… Now, from comparing Steps 2 and 6, we see that if Iran is a terrorist state, AND Israel is less than (or more negative than) Iran, THEN Israel is less than, or lower than, or more negative than, or worse than a terrorist state.

What did the BBC poll find? 57% of the people of the world viewed Israel negatively one year compared to 52% the next, while 54% viewed Iran negatively both years. Get the picture yet? How does that shirt taste?

Answer below

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Because of problems with the spam filter, I'm trying to do this in two posts.
Post 1:

rick22407 :
Just as I thought Teddy Boy…

You are a tough nut to crack. Let’s try one something fun and new…logic…LOL…fat chance right?
Etc., etc., etc.
_______________________________________________

Before I begin, I really want to thank you and the rest of the nitwit Jew-haters on this blog.
I am a 69 year old retiree, and I found myself with some free time on my hands, so I thought I'd check on what was happening in the Blogosphere, the new American Democracy in action, where no one has to depend on the media anymore because all the truth is now being expounded by you guys.
LOL
Excuse me for the delay, but I just got over a long laughing fit.
OK, Back to the matter at hand. Anyway, I have never had such a good laugh in my life as I have been having the past few weeks. Unfortunately, you guys are so lame that the laughs come way too easy. Never mind, I'm willing to take whatever I can get.
LOL

First of all, I don't know anyone who consider's Iran to be a "terrorist" state, except possibly for Israel. So since it is only Israel's definition, Iran's unpopularity cannot be because it's a terrorist state, so your whole argument just goes right out the window. You do see the logic there, don't you? LOL
But leaving it at that wouldn't be much fun.
So let me see.
A,B,C,D. Iran's negatives stayed the same at 54%, while Israel's actually dropped from 57% to 52%.
LOL
I think you meant to say the opposite and only pity makes me point that out to you.
In any case, that still doesn't prove that the reason you give, to wit: Israel is a terrorist state committing genocide on the Palestinians, is borne out by anything in the polls. For all I know, from the evidence at hand, people like Israel less because they hate Livni's nose. You'll say that's ridiculous. I say your whole argument up til now has been ridiculous.
You can't prove your contentions so you resort to stupid ABCD arguments which still prove nothing.

I just spilled ketchup on my shirt and I love ketchup, so I've asked my wife not to wash it for the next few days, just in case you actually come up with something.
LOL
continued below

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

I'm having problems with thye spam filter so I'll post this in two parts and see if that works.
Part 2:

Here, I'd like to do a bit of arithmetic of my own, if you don't mind.
I refer you to a colloquy you had with Nadine, who said:
“BTW, did you know that the population of the West Bank and Gaza was only 1 million in 1967, but is given as 3 million today? The Israelis are not doing a good job at "genocide", are they? I thought the Israelis were supposed to be efficient!”

To which you answer brilliantly:
"They are slowed quite a bit by having to pander to these troublesome worldwide public opinion polls. They have to work in small steps; a few thousand women and children at a time. Of course they are working at starving them to death too, but those darned tunnels keep getting in the way of that."

LOL. I didn't think I could laugh that hard. Live and learn.

Let's see, they are going to exterminate them slowly so that no one will notice.
Are you shi*ting me? Did you really say that?
LOL

Anyway, to the arithmetic.
According to the present Palestinian figures, there are now 3.8 million Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank.
I'm going to have to make a starting point somewhere, so I'll just pick the number 1300, the number of Palestinians supposedly killed in Gaza in 23 days of fighting. Will that do?

Step 1) Let A stand for 1300 killed.

Step 2) Let B stand for 23 days of fighting.

Step 3) Let C stand for 56.5 Palestinian killed every day.

Now we have to be careful because it gets a bit abstract. LOL

Step 4) Let D stand for 3.8 million Palestinians.

Step 5) Let E stand for 67,256.6 days to wipe them all out at 56.5 per day.

Are you with me so far?

Step 6) Let F stand for 184.26 years until they are all wiped out and, of course, no one will even notice. LOL

I admit that there's a monkey wrench in the works though, so

Step 7) Let G stand for all the babies being born to the Palestinians during those 184.26 years.

Step 8) Let H stand for the mathematician I need to hire to calculate all the possible time frames given the various different estimates of the Palestinian birth rate.

I must say that I don't really buy this, because 56.5 people per day is hard to hide, so maybe only 2 or 3 will actually get killed. Now we're looking at thousands of years to wipe them out.
Some genocide.
LOL

I can't wait for your answer to this one.

LOL

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Rick,

If Palestine "between the river and the sea" were ever established, it would be run by the same charming people who are currently running Gaza, the ones who have just implemented a number of Sharia laws, including death by cruxifiction (!) as a punishment for unIslamic activies. Secular democracy is not on Hamas' wishlist; like other Islamists, they advocate elections on the "one man, one vote, one time" principle. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to run for reelection.

The new Palestine would contain NO Jews, just as none live in Gaza now, and it would shortly turn into another Gaza, no matter how many resources it inherited from the Israelis. Just as the greenhouses of Gaza were destroyed for spite, so would be the towers of Tel Aviv.

But were that to happen, the surrounding Arab states would all discover, as Egypt already has, how unhappy they would be to have Iran's proxy so powerfully on their doorsteps, and how threatened they would be by the lack of Israel as an all purpose whipping boy. Nothing is more threatening to these regimes than having their people looking at their own conditions, instead of fixated in hatred of an external enemy!

No, no, no. It cannot be permitted. The Arab regimes actually have the biggest stake in keeping Israel alive - not happy, but alive - and should they conceive that Iran seriously threatens its existence, you will see them become Israel's de facto allies, as Egypt already has in this last war with Hamas.

So neither those who root for Israel, as I do, or those who root for Al Qaeda and Hamas, as you do, will get their wishes in this matter.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Nadine:

“Such is the power of Arab propaganda and their Euro helpers that you're probably right. You do understand that you have just explained why it is the Arabs who will ensure that the Palestinian never, ever get a state?”

They will get a state as prescribed by the British White Paper of 1939. It will be a secular state bounded by Lebanon and Syria to the north, Jordan to the east, Egypt to the south, and the Mediterranean to the west. It will be governed by representatives chosen from the Israeli and Palestinian populations in proportion to their respective numbers.

“BTW, did you know that the population of the West Bank and Gaza was only 1 million in 1967, but is given as 3 million today? The Israelis are not doing a good job at "genocide", are they? I thought the Israelis were supposed to be efficient!”

They are slowed quite a bit by having to pander to these troublesome worldwide public opinion polls. They have to work in small steps; a few thousand women and children at a time. Of course they are working at starving them to death too, but those darned tunnels keep getting in the way of that.

At present, Israelis receive five times as much water per person as Palestinians. In Gaza, the disparity is even more striking, with settlers getting seven times as much water as their Palestinian neighbors. Stated differently, on average, Israelis get 92.5 gallons per person per day, while Palestinians in the West Bank get 18.5 gallons per person per day. The minimum quantity of water recommended by the U.S. Agency for International Development and the World Health Organization for household and urban use alone is 26.4 gallons per person per day...

A variety of explanations have been offered as to why Israel is reluctant to redistribute water resources. The most obvious reason is that doing so would require a change in Israeli lifestyles: no more private swimming pools and green lawns…

Yehezkel Lein from B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, explains the origins of this discrepancy succinctly: "Underlying Israel's water policy in the Occupied Territories was the desire to preserve the quantity of water it uses.”

Darned, it’s not just those troublesome Arab propagandists after all. Israeli Human Rights activists want in on the action too.

daniel12 Author Profile Page:

Optimist3 is grotesque. He keeps comparing Israel to Nazi Germany when for the past sixty years Israel has had to fight against an overwhelming number of Muslims. In WW2 the Jews were a minority in Germany and thrown into concentration camps.

But optimist3 would still see the Jews of today--the Jews who are still a minority--as perpetrating a holocaust in the middle east. How can the Jews be perpetrating a holocaust when they are so few and the Muslims so many?

The truth is that virtually all Muslims at one time or another have tried to destroy Israel. And now today they try to destroy her through both violence and trying to outbreed her, overcome her through sheer demographics. Some holocaust the Jews are perpetrating when the Muslim birthrate is higher than the Jews!

And what a threat to Israel's democracy this twin scourge of violence and demographics by Muslims against the Israelis is. How can Israel do anything other than compromise her democracy in the obvious state of emergency she is experiencing?

The Muslims seem to have not only convinced the world that no holocaust occurred in WW2, but that the Israelis are perpetrating the true holocaust. Obviously the way is open now for the Muslims to exterminate the Israelis. No one will say the Israelis deserved anything less.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Oops! The website didn’t accept the symbol for “less than”.

Step 2 should have been: Now if A is less than B AND B equals C, then what can we say about A relative to C? A is less than C correct?

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Just as I thought Teddy Boy…

You are a tough nut to crack. Let’s try one something fun and new…logic…LOL…fat chance right?

Step 1… OK…you agree that Iran is a terrorist state by most everyone’s definition right? … at least everyone in the so-called “State of Israel”.

Step 2… Now if A

Step 3… Now here is where it gets difficult…we have to think in abstract concepts.

Step 4… Let A represent Israel.

Step 5… Let B represent Iran.

Step 6… Let C represent Iran’s status as a terrorist state (according to the Zionists anyway)

Step 7… Now, from comparing Steps 2 and 6, we see that if Iran is a terrorist state, AND Israel is less than (or more negative than) Iran, THEN Israel is less than, or lower than, or more negative than, or worse than a terrorist state.

What did the BBC poll find? 57% of the people of the world viewed Israel negatively one year compared to 52% the next, while 54% viewed Iran negatively both years. Get the picture yet? How does that shirt taste?

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

rick22407 :
No…most of the world considers Israel to be a terrorist state, which with the aid of the world’s last remaining super power is committing genocide on the Palestinian people.

“This was your real case and if you can point to anything in the polls you cite to substantiate that, I'll eat my shirt” says Teddy.

Why do you think that the world has such a negative view of Israel? Because they are a terrorist state of course, and are committing genocide on the Palestinian people…Here’s another…how does your shirt taste? http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-208497

World Opinion Of Israel Is Negative Poll Shows...You will note from the report below, that Israel has a negative rating along with Iran, Pakistan and North Korea. The Zionists have lost their victim status and are being seen worldwide for the evil that the Zionists represent. This poll was conducted before Israel murdered hundreds of innocent men, women and children in Gaza. With the world outraged at the murders in Gaza at the hands of the Zionists, would a poll taken now put Israel as the most negatively viewed?
______________________________________________

Ricky, Ricky, Ricky!
You're joking, right?
How is this poll any different from the other?

I'm afraid that your opinions about the polls are hardly relevant since there is nothing in any of them to specifically point to your own personal conclusions.
You are certainly free to do so, but you really must stop pretending that any of them proves anything you say. You're not fooling anybody except maybe yourself.

You are aware of the definition of insanity that claims it's main symptom is doing or saying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

I'll just wear my shirt for the time being. OK?
LOL

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

rick,

No…most of the world considers Israel to be a terrorist state, which with the aid of the world’s last remaining super power is committing genocide on the Palestinian people.

Such is the power of Arab propaganda and their Euro helpers that you're probably right. You do understand that you have just explained why it is the Arabs who will ensure that the Palestinian never, ever get a state? If the Pals got a state, all this lovely propaganda would stop working and they would be expected to run their lives like other people. So the Arabs will make sure to prevent it.

I tell you, nobody can over-estimate the usefulness of keeping the Arab masses fixated on the "Palestinian genocide" to the Arab regimes. And the Euros who fear Muslim immigration, are only too glad to say to the wolves they fear, "eat Israel first."

BTW, did you know that the population of the West Bank and Gaza was only 1 million in 1967, but is given as 3 million today? The Israelis are not doing a good job at "genocide", are they? I thought the Israelis were supposed to be efficient!

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

No…most of the world considers Israel to be a terrorist state, which with the aid of the world’s last remaining super power is committing genocide on the Palestinian people.

“This was your real case and if you can point to anything in the polls you cite to substantiate that, I'll eat my shirt” says Teddy.

Why do you think that the world has such a negative view of Israel? Because they are a terrorist state of course, and are committing genocide on the Palestinian people…Here’s another…how does your shirt taste? http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-208497

World Opinion Of Israel Is Negative Poll Shows...You will note from the report below, that Israel has a negative rating along with Iran, Pakistan and North Korea. The Zionists have lost their victim status and are being seen worldwide for the evil that the Zionists represent. This poll was conducted before Israel murdered hundreds of innocent men, women and children in Gaza. With the world outraged at the murders in Gaza at the hands of the Zionists, would a poll taken now put Israel as the most negatively viewed?

WASHINGTON, Feb 6 (IPS) - Israel, Iran, North Korea and Pakistan are widely seen as exerting the most negative influence on world affairs, according to the latest in a series of annual global surveys by the BBC's World Service on popular perceptions of the world's most powerful or newsworthy nations.

The survey, which questioned some 13,500 respondents in 21 countries around the world, found that perceptions of Russian and Chinese influence also became considerably more negative during 2008. At the same time, views of the United States, which rivaled those of Israel and Iran just two years ago, continued improving modestly last year but remained predominantly negative despite the victory of Barack Obama in the November 2008 presidential elections.

"Though BBC polls have shown that most people around the world are hopeful that Barack Obama will improve U.S. relations with the world, it is clear that his election alone is not enough to turn the tide," said Steven Kull, director of the University of Maryland's Programme on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA), which helped conduct the survey. "People are still looking to see if there are significant changes in U.S. policies."

Just two weeks ago, the BBC released a 17-nation poll of more than 17,000 respondents, two out of three of whom said they expected U.S. relations with the world to improve under an Obama presidency.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

AMviennaVA :
ThoughtfulTed @February 18, 2009 10:18 PM & February 18, 2009 22:18:

ThoughtfulTed @February 17, 2009 10:03 PM: You are not qualified as yet to express an opinion, let alone interject yourself in other people's discussions. You must first reach the maturity of a 13 year-old. SO, please refrain from addressing me or injecting yourself in discussions till then.
______________________________________________

LOL.
If you don't like it, go away.
My granddaughter thinks I sometimes act like a 13 year old too.
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:


rick22407 :
Teddy,

Since you are into polls, here is another that you may enjoy:

World views Iran and Israel most negatively

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7324337.stm

“Iran and Israel are viewed most negatively. Negative views of Iran's influence remained at 54%. But Israel's negative rating went down from 57% to 52%.”

“The survey was carried out by the international polling firm GlobeScan with the Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) at the University of Maryland.”

“People were asked to rate Brazil, Britain, China, France, Germany, India, Iran, Israel, Japan, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, the US and the European Union as having positive or negative influence.”

Gee, I wonder why that is…
__________________________________________

Well Ricky, I remember saying something about not including Muslim countries for rather obvious reasons, and without knowing how many of the respondents came from Muslim countries, it is hard to tell much about how the non-Muslim world views Israel.
In any case, the poll is rather mushy in that nowhere does it define exactly what it means by influence.
It still wont do. Please find me a poll that says most of the non-Muslim world is turning against Israel, which was your original statement.
No, we need more still. We need to hear how many non-Muslims believe that Israel is a terrorist state and is committing genocide.
You are not getting off the hook.
Try again or admit that you're talking through your hat or, more to the nature of the medium, f*rting through your fingers.
LOL

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed @February 18, 2009 10:18 PM & February 18, 2009 22:18:

ThoughtfulTed @February 17, 2009 10:03 PM: You are not qualified as yet to express an opinion, let alone interject yourself in other people's discussions. You must first reach the maturity of a 13 year-old. SO, please refrain from addressing me or injecting yourself in discussions till then.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

rick22407 :
International Poll … Thursday, February 19, 2009

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/503.php?lb=btis&pnt=503&nid=&id=

“A new WorldPublicOpinion.org poll of 18 countries finds that in 14 of them people mostly say their government should not take sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Just three countries favor taking the Palestinian side (Egypt, Iran, and Turkey) and one is divided (India). No country favors taking Israel's side, including the United States, where 71 percent favor taking neither side.”

Etc., etc., etc.
__________________________________________________

Truly Rick, I don't know exactly which case you are resting. According to your original statement, the world is turning away from Israel. The only thing this poll really tells us, is that the world pretty much thinks both sides are about equally culpable, and they don't want their countries to take sides.
Maybe the most interesting thing about this poll is that 5 of the countries are Muslim, India has a huge Muslim population, and there are 6 million Muslims living in France, and the results are still pretty much 50/50 taking everything into account. I do believe that I mentioned a quick figure the other day of 30% to 30%. This is even better.
That said, I'll quote your take on the polls as you posted yesterday:
"No…most of the world considers Israel to be a terrorist state, which with the aid of the world’s last remaining super power (temporarily) is committing genocide on the Palestinian people."

This was your real case and if you can point to anything in the polls you cite to substantiate that, I'll eat my shirt.

Other than that, I will point to the fact that the polls asked the question viv-avis Israel and the "Palestinians." My point was that Hamas is considered to be a terrorist organization by most of the world and I cited polls which specifically asked the question as to who was responsible for the war in Gaza. The answer to that question is overwhelmingly against Hamas, something like 60% to 17%, at least in the US polls. If you can find other polls taken on that same question, I'd be extremely interested to see them.

You see Rick, it's really not OK to change the subject of discourse in the midst of the debate.
You haven't proven your case at all, considering, of course, that you actually know what your case is anyway.
LOL

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Teddy,

Since you are into polls, here is another that you may enjoy:

World views Iran and Israel most negatively

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7324337.stm

“Iran and Israel are viewed most negatively. Negative views of Iran's influence remained at 54%. But Israel's negative rating went down from 57% to 52%.”

“The survey was carried out by the international polling firm GlobeScan with the Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) at the University of Maryland.”

“People were asked to rate Brazil, Britain, China, France, Germany, India, Iran, Israel, Japan, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, the US and the European Union as having positive or negative influence.”

Gee, I wonder why that is…


rick22407 Author Profile Page:

International Poll … Thursday, February 19, 2009

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/503.php?lb=btis&pnt=503&nid=&id=

“A new WorldPublicOpinion.org poll of 18 countries finds that in 14 of them people mostly say their government should not take sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Just three countries favor taking the Palestinian side (Egypt, Iran, and Turkey) and one is divided (India). No country favors taking Israel's side, including the United States, where 71 percent favor taking neither side.”

“In no country does a majority favor taking Israel's side. The largest percentages favoring taking Israel's side are Indians (24%), Americans (21%), and Nigerians (15%)…”

“Israel receives the worst ratings, with most saying they are not doing their part very well in 13 out of 15 countries asked. On average, 54 percent say it is not doing its part well (31% not very, 23% not at all) while just 22 percent say it is (5% very, 17% somewhat)…”

“Negative ratings of Israel are not confined to predominantly Muslim publics--the largest majorities saying Israel is not doing its part well include Egypt (88%), South Korea (69%), Indonesia (66%), France (64%), the United States (59%), Azerbaijan (59%), Mexico (57%), and Great Britain (57%)…”

“Overall, there is strong support for the United Nations playing a robust role in the effort to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict… In 16 of 17 countries polled, majorities or pluralities favor the UN Security Council offering--if Israel and the Palestinians come to a peace agreement--to send a peacekeeping force to enforce the agreement. On average, 67 percent favor such an approach, while just 20 percent oppose the idea.”

I rest my case. A plurality (3 to 0) of 18 nations polled favor taking the Palestinian side in the conflict. No country (including the US) favors taking the Israeli side. Israel “receives the worst ratings with 54% saying that it is not doing its part to resolve the conflict, while only 22% say that it is.

Negative ratings for Israel are not confined predominantly Muslim publics, including South Korea (69%), France (64%), US (59%), Mexico (57%), and Great Britain (57%).

There, now that didn’t take too long did it?

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Daho :
After reading the numerous interventions, with so many biased interpretations and comments to the same question, it becomes clear that the answers received confuse more than help clarify it.
Today’s situation seems to result from monotheism, as the three main religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, each firmly declaring that it detains the final ‘TRUTH’. As there cannot be three truths for a unique question, antagonism, hatred and violence were the consequences.
Before monotheism, the groups of people who lived around the world had different ‘Gods’, yet there was never a war of religion. The wars occurred to get more land, riches or slaves. Sometimes, the victors adopted the ‘God’ of their enemies and added it to theirs.
Monotheism was supposed to introduce the one God, who revealed the truth of creation and who indicated how the humans should behave, as, on their death, they would be judged for their actions and receive retribution – heaven or hell. Thus Judaism was created.
About 1500 years later, with Jesus, Christianity was introduced, bringing a new revelation from God, and thus was supposed to replace Judaism.
About 1500 years later, with Mohamed, Islam was introduced, and was declared as the recipient of the ultimate revelation, which would replace Judaism and Christianity.
However, as the Jews, the Christian and the Moslems each held to their truth, which they considered the only acceptable one, the wars of religion started, as none of the three would admit another truth than its own.
History describes how across two thousand years, evolution, education and the possibility to meet and know the other, did not help to avoid the atrocities committed in the name of religion.
Consequently, as long as in spite of the differences the humans will not admit that the respect of the other is included in their respective belief, and try to solve the problems through negotiations rather than violence, we shall witness more of the latter.
As the masses usually follow leaders, these should have the responsibility and the power to create a better world, where all humans could live in harmony.
Unfortunately, world society has evolved in a way where power and money and immediate selfish gratification are the goals of the day, resulting in all the difficulties and sufferings which are experienced. Unless, changes occur rapidly, we cannot have any improvement and expect more negatives then positives.
_______________________________________________

Yup. If only the world weren't filled with human beings and their religions, and nationalisms, and selfish desires, it would be a great place to live.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

rick22407 :
ThoughtfulTed @ February 18, 2009 7:19 PM

“…you haven't commented on the fact that they were supposed to be making their own state...”

Says who? That is the whole point. The Palestinians did not buy into the British grand plan that an invading population would be imported from Europe to set up housekeeping in Palestine.

The British eventually caught on to the fact that this was a dumb idea to begin with and tried to reverse course with the White Paper of 1939.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939

“The White Paper of 1939, also known as the MacDonald White Paper after Malcolm MacDonald, the British Colonial Secretary who presided over it, was a policy paper issued by the British government under Neville Chamberlain in which the idea of partitioning the Mandate for Palestine, as recommended in the Peel Commission Report of 1937, was abandoned in favour of creating an independent Palestine governed by Palestinian Arabs and Jews in proportion to their numbers in the population by 1949 (section I). A limit of 75,000 Jewish immigrants was set for the five-year period 1940-1944, consisting of a regular yearly quota of 10,000, and a supplementary quota of 25,000, spread out over the same period, to cover refugee emergencies. After this cut-off date, further immigration would depend on the permission of the Arab majority (section II). Restrictions were also placed on the rights of Jews to buy land from Arabs (section III).”
_________________________________________________

Ricky, Ricky, Ricky.
The British government, by its two faced policy, is actually the major villain in this whole piece. It was certainly having second thoughts about the Balfour Declaration, realizing that if it actually allowed a Jewish State to emerge, it would lose its foothold in Palestine fguring that the Arabs were easier pushovers than the Jews. From this point on, the British tried their best to backtrack on the Balfour Declaration, but the UN wasn't having any of it and passed the Partition Plan.
Still, the important question was why the Arabs refused to make their own state.
You can dither about this all you want, but the land owned by the Jews in the area that was to be Israel had all been acquired legally, no Arabs had been driven out from anywhere, there was no attempt by the Jews to grab more land than they had been allotted by the plan until they were attacked by the Arabs. The Jews already had the land upon which they were to build their State.
The truth is that the Arabs simply didn't want it so they started a war. They lost. Now they want their marbles back.
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

rick22407 :
ThoughtfulTed @ February 18, 2009 8:41 PM

“So, what's new. The Arabs have always been a potential fifth column, a fact that is responsible for many of the restrictions they face. With peace between Israel and the Arabs, the discrimination should dissolve.”

“Nevertheless, perhaps you could provide us with the actual number of Israeli Arabs who have chosen to leave the country in which they undergo all this terrible discrimination, or will you try to argue that they are being held prisoner.”

“The Arabs of Israel are well aware that they have the best living conditions of any Arabs in the Middle East…”

That’s quite a flip-flop; from “The Arab citizens of Israel have all the rights of any citizens in any western nation and are represented in the Knesset.” @ February 17, 2009 9:11 PM… to “at least we haven’t managed to drive them out of the country yet”…
________________________________________________

LOL
It won't work Ricky baby, Let us know how many they have managed to drive out already, and why haven't they all left. Your trying to put words in my mouth, with quotation marks yet, is a pretty stupid ploy. No one will be fooled by it, but your fellow travelers.
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

rick22407 :
ThoughtfulTed @ February 18, 2009 10:03 PM

“It's interesting that you point us to a poll taken in 2003, regardless of whether or not it had a significant anti-Semitic bias.”

“Most of the world considers Hamas to be a terrorist organization with no redeeming features.”

Ah yes…the standard Zionist whine…anyone who opposes our God given right to expel the Palestinian people to make room for our apartheid, racist state is anti-Semite.

No…most of the world considers Israel to be a terrorist state, which with the aid of the world’s last remaining super power (temporarily) is committing genocide on the Palestinian people.
______________________________________________

OK. Prove it. Direct us to the factual information which supports your contention.
I have a feeling we'll be waiting a long time.
LOL
My challenge goes out to all of the idiots on this site.
Prove it.
No Muslim countries please. I'll concede those right off the bat. Although I will accept those who have condemned Hamas.
LOL

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed @ February 18, 2009 10:03 PM

“It's interesting that you point us to a poll taken in 2003, regardless of whether or not it had a significant anti-Semitic bias.”

“Most of the world considers Hamas to be a terrorist organization with no redeeming features.”

Ah yes…the standard Zionist whine…anyone who opposes our God given right to expel the Palestinian people to make room for our apartheid, racist state is anti-Semite.

No…most of the world considers Israel to be a terrorist state, which with the aid of the world’s last remaining super power (temporarily) is committing genocide on the Palestinian people.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed @ February 18, 2009 9:16 PM

“So, Truman, like many at the time, harbored some anti-Semitic feelings. So what?”

“He went ahead and recognized the new state anyway, against the advice of his basically anti-Semitic State Department, because he believed intensely in the moral right of Israel to exist as a Jewish State.”

“You have nothing important to add to this discussion; you operate solely from a position of hatred and bigotry, the very problems that gave rise to the conflict to begin with.”

Ah yes…the standard Zionist whine…anyone who opposes our God given right to expel the Palestinian people to make room for our apartheid, racist state is anti-Semite.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed @ February 18, 2009 8:41 PM

“So, what's new. The Arabs have always been a potential fifth column, a fact that is responsible for many of the restrictions they face. With peace between Israel and the Arabs, the discrimination should dissolve.”

“Nevertheless, perhaps you could provide us with the actual number of Israeli Arabs who have chosen to leave the country in which they undergo all this terrible discrimination, or will you try to argue that they are being held prisoner.”

“The Arabs of Israel are well aware that they have the best living conditions of any Arabs in the Middle East…”

That’s quite a flip-flop; from “The Arab citizens of Israel have all the rights of any citizens in any western nation and are represented in the Knesset.” @ February 17, 2009 9:11 PM… to “at least we haven’t managed to drive them out of the country yet”…

chimpunk Author Profile Page:

The US's starting position in any negotiation or support of negotiation should be that Israel must become a secular state with no established religion.

Yes, that's difficult, but nothing else is consistent with American ideals (or are we singing the praises of monarchies and communism as well?), and yes, there's a demographic problem, but the general attitude toward it is pretty racist.

Or, Israel can just continue in their attempts to exterminate the Palestinians with tanks and phosphorous shells, and dice the West Bank into ever-smaller apartheid chunks. Israel has treated the Palestinians like animals, and unfortunately the Palestinians have responded in kind.

Someone needs to break this cycle, and give both sides something positive to live for. The Palestinians need legitimate commerce and education before they can become responsible citizens, and Israel needs to learn how to take care of a dependent population.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed @ February 18, 2009 7:19 PM

“…you haven't commented on the fact that they were supposed to be making their own state...”

Says who? That is the whole point. The Palestinians did not buy into the British grand plan that an invading population would be imported from Europe to set up housekeeping in Palestine.

The British eventually caught on to the fact that this was a dumb idea to begin with and tried to reverse course with the White Paper of 1939.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939

“The White Paper of 1939, also known as the MacDonald White Paper after Malcolm MacDonald, the British Colonial Secretary who presided over it, was a policy paper issued by the British government under Neville Chamberlain in which the idea of partitioning the Mandate for Palestine, as recommended in the Peel Commission Report of 1937, was abandoned in favour of creating an independent Palestine governed by Palestinian Arabs and Jews in proportion to their numbers in the population by 1949 (section I). A limit of 75,000 Jewish immigrants was set for the five-year period 1940-1944, consisting of a regular yearly quota of 10,000, and a supplementary quota of 25,000, spread out over the same period, to cover refugee emergencies. After this cut-off date, further immigration would depend on the permission of the Arab majority (section II). Restrictions were also placed on the rights of Jews to buy land from Arabs (section III).”

Daho Author Profile Page:

After reading the numerous interventions, with so many biased interpretations and comments to the same question, it becomes clear that the answers received confuse more than help clarify it.
Today’s situation seems to result from monotheism, as the three main religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, each firmly declaring that it detains the final ‘TRUTH’. As there cannot be three truths for a unique question, antagonism, hatred and violence were the consequences.
Before monotheism, the groups of people who lived around the world had different ‘Gods’, yet there was never a war of religion. The wars occurred to get more land, riches or slaves. Sometimes, the victors adopted the ‘God’ of their enemies and added it to theirs.
Monotheism was supposed to introduce the one God, who revealed the truth of creation and who indicated how the humans should behave, as, on their death, they would be judged for their actions and receive retribution – heaven or hell. Thus Judaism was created.
About 1500 years later, with Jesus, Christianity was introduced, bringing a new revelation from God, and thus was supposed to replace Judaism.
About 1500 years later, with Mohamed, Islam was introduced, and was declared as the recipient of the ultimate revelation, which would replace Judaism and Christianity.
However, as the Jews, the Christian and the Moslems each held to their truth, which they considered the only acceptable one, the wars of religion started, as none of the three would admit another truth than its own.
History describes how across two thousand years, evolution, education and the possibility to meet and know the other, did not help to avoid the atrocities committed in the name of religion.
Consequently, as long as in spite of the differences the humans will not admit that the respect of the other is included in their respective belief, and try to solve the problems through negotiations rather than violence, we shall witness more of the latter.
As the masses usually follow leaders, these should have the responsibility and the power to create a better world, where all humans could live in harmony.
Unfortunately, world society has evolved in a way where power and money and immediate selfish gratification are the goals of the day, resulting in all the difficulties and sufferings which are experienced. Unless, changes occur rapidly, we cannot have any improvement and expect more negatives then positives.


ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Chaotician :

There follows a list of supposed quotations from David Ben-Gurion.
__________________________________________________

I once did a study on all of the phony Ben-Gurion quotes cited by the anti-Israel bunch to prove that the Jews were always intent on ethnic cleansing.
They are all either outright lies, or distortions created by elisions and other suspect textual manipulations.
The most common distortion in these quotes comes from reporting statements in Ben-Gurion's diaries which were actually made by others, as having been his. Often, these quotes are followed by his own take on them, usually to dispute them. These statements are never included.
I wonder if you have ever taken the time to find out if any of these quotes is accurate, or do you just parrot them from anti-Israel propaganda sites? I'm certain that you have read none of the books you cite.
For now, I'll just deal with the third quote, about the missing Arab towns. This statement was actually made by Moshe Dayan in a speech at Bar-Ilan University, many years after Ben-Gurion's death. In any case, the last part of the quotation, in which he regrets the fact that these towns are empty because the Arabs who lived in them ran away in spite of Israeli pleas for them to remain is never, ever quoted.
Wonder why?
The quality of scholarship in many of these works is regrettably low, most of them are nothing but propaganda screeds anyway.
David Ben-Gurion was one of the greatest Jewish defenders of Arab rights, and these misquotes are a slander on his memory, aside from being historical rubbish.
______________________________________________

Waiting for an answer. Why the silence?

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

optimist3 :
ThoughtfulTed,
Why should one respond to a petulant malingerer like yourself? I collate and post your abuses of policy in order to hang your dirty laundry for the moderator and for others routinely insulted by you, and to encourage you to drop your strategy of vilifying others in order to make your points carry their own weight.

In the end, your "points" support nothing more than a policy that justifies the murder and wholesale dispossession by means of state violence of a beleaguered, largely unarmed minority, in the name of constructing a an exclusionary racial state. How could such a position warrant a counter-argument? Grow up.
______________________________________________

Oh please, spare me the offended outrage.
LOL
The simple truth is that you have no facts to back up any of your supposed counter-arguments so you vilify me.
You grow up.
LOL
By the way, where have you been lately. You've been remarkably silent. Don't tell me I've embarrassed you off another blog.
LOL
I've decided to play Javert to your Jean Valjean. Wherever you go I will hound you. Valjean's only crime was stealing a loaf of bread to feed his hungry family. Your's are a lot worse than that.
You try to play us for fools, but your own ignorance trips you up every step you take.
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

AMviennaVA :
optimist3 @February 16, 2009 10:35 PM (and Nadinesc): A little discussed fact is that Hammas acceepted the Meccah declaration in 2002 that calls for recognition of Israel and repatriation of the refugees (or exchange of land for the right). Only two parties affected by the conflict did not accept it: Israel and the US, whose position essentially is that the Palestinians (all of them) must surrender unconditionally. But Hammas is already on record as willing to recognize Israel, providing Israel earns the recognition.
________________________________________________

We're still waiting, with bated breath, for your link to this so-called Mecca Declaration. The one that Israel and the US didn't sign. The one in which Hamas agreed to recognize Israel.
What are you waiting for?
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

AMviennaVA :
ThoughtfulTed @February 17, 2009 10:03 PM: You are not qualified as yet to express an opinion, let alone interject yourself in other people's discussions. You must first reach the maturity of a 13 year-old. SO, please refrain from addressing me or injecting yourself in discussions till then.
_____________________________________________

LOL.
I hereby reprint the colloquy of which you don't like my interjection.
LOL

AMviennaVA :
optimist3 @February 16, 2009 10:35 PM (and Nadinesc): A little discussed fact is that Hammas acceepted the Meccah declaration in 2002 that calls for recognition of Israel and repatriation of the refugees (or exchange of land for the right). Only two parties affected by the conflict did not accept it: Israel and the US, whose position essentially is that the Palestinians (all of them) must surrender unconditionally. But Hammas is already on record as willing to recognize Israel, providing Israel earns the recognition.

_____________________________________________-

LOL.
You'll really have to link to this so-called Mecca Declaration. I tried to find it and all I see are a couple of internal Arab declarations of principles, but certainly nothing to which anyone, other than the signatories, had to agree. Not the US, not Israel, and Hamas is nowhere mentioned.
Are you trying to lie to us about something?
LOL
______________________________________________

I'm still waiting for an answer. Chastising me doesn't quite fill the bill.
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

rick22407 :
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/04/1067708209067.html

The European Commission has apologized to Israel for a new opinion poll that shows that Israel is the country most regarded as a threat to world peace by ordinary Europeans.


The Simon Wiesenthal Centre, an international group founded to protect Jewish rights, said the survey "shows that anti-Semitism is deeply embedded within European society" and that Europe should be frozen out of any Middle East peacemaking efforts. But Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said the findings reflected the distorted nature of the list-based question and should not be put down to anti-Semitism. "We should not get excited by it," he said.

_______________________________________________

This AP article details anti-Semitic bias in Europe.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ihR3pCS1eoqfa10COBWKj37kOn6wD968SE403

It's interesting that you point us to a poll taken in 2003, regardless of whether or not it had a significant anti-Semitic bias.
The question was also who was most dangerous to world peace.
This year, 2009, after Gaza, polls which ask who was responsible for the war, have a pretty equal distribution on both sides, somewhere around 30%.
Hardly a resounding win for Hamas which only rates about 17% in American polls.
In any case, if you are expecting the governments of Europe to suddenly turn against Israel, you will be waiting a long time.
Most of the world considers Hamas to be a terrorist organization with no redeeming features.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

optimist3 :
"Make the Jews and Arabs share one state - a secular democracy - and leave it at that."
____________________________________________

Ted replies: "And let's put all the "ethnic" nations of Europe into one nation. I'm sure they'd love that. And while were at it, let's force all the Asian nations into one country too...LOL...I would have no objection to a single world state...but it ain't gonna happen so you'd better get used to our ethnic differences and learn to live with them.

Finally, here is a rebuttal with which I agree with Ted. The idea that Europeans or Americans for that matter can "make" or force a nation and state to do anything at all is, well, European.

The "Arabs of Palestine" and the "Israeli's" must determine for themselves the character and makeup of their "state." How human rights of minority populations are treated, and, the means by which these negotiations are secured, and, the extent to which member states adhere to the findings of the international institutions to which they belong are critical factors--if states such as Israel--which are past the point of return--wish to avoid becoming known as pariah states.

The state of Israel must decide whether it will continue to decline into a belligerent, fascist "racial state," or, struggle to retain the remnant of its' "democratic nature." That's what the fuss is about. That and the pratfalls of losing American opinion--which has been critical to the existence of Israel.

Increasingly that opinion is changing as the "mask is off."
_______________________________________________

LOL. You get no smarter with time, do you?

I notice that you agree with me that no one can force anyone to do anything (which I actually never said, by the way) while completely ignoring my statement about your ridiculous argument about ethnic states in the first place. Either you are a master of disingenuous misdirection, or simply too ignorant to carry on a reasonable argument.
LOL
Israel is not turning into a fascist state and is not suffering from any loss of support either from governments or the public.
I have pointed you several times to the various polls showing support for Israel somewhere about 60% and support for Hamas at about 15%. That hasn't changed whether you acknowledge it or not.
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

optimist3 :
ThoughtfulTed:
"You are an opinionated know-nothing masquerading as a scholar or something. I can't figure out what exactly."

Ted's "Facts": Let's have a look at the merits of his points:
etc., etc., etc.
_______________________________________________

I must admit that I find your pathology as pathetic as it is laughable.

1) There are three Arab parties in Israel and elected 11 members to the Knesset in this last election. Two Arab parties, considered to be extremist, were denied the right to participate, the same thing that happened to several extremist Jewish parties in the past.
There is certainly discrimination against the Arabs in Israel, understandable is it not since the country is at war with other Arabs. Understandable, but neither right nor proper. In any case, it is hardly "massive" as you'd like us to believe. If it were so, why haven't the Arabs left in droves to settle in Arab countries? The reason is obvious, they know that they're better off in Israel than anywhere else, even if you don't. LOL
2) I defy you to prove your ridiculous statement that the PA are "bagmen" for Israel. That may be your opinion, but you have no facts to back it up. Do You?
Neither Israel, nor the US, nor most of the rest of the world denied Hamas' right to govern until they forced out their opposition Fatah at the point of a gun. That made them a rogue government. That was also the beginning of the blockade of Gaza.
Perhaps you should let the original poster to whom I had directed my answers to answer for himself. You're screwing it all up.
You have no facts to provide us with, preferring to pull ignorant opinions out of the vast wasteland between your ears.
I've been wondering where you keep your brains and have decided that you keep them warm while sitting at your keyboard.
LOL

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Amviennava,

When I see situations were peoples have co-existed for thousands of years and are suddenly torn apart, and there is consistently a preceding event, I place the responsibility on the preceding event.

Ah, note that passive voice: "are suddenly torn apart". In fact, there are always multiple preceding events. You chose to ignore the ones involving Arabs waging anti-Jewish pogroms, and notice only the ones involving the British or Americans. In the case of say, the Egyptian or Iraqi Jews being driven out of the countries where they had lived for thousands of years, the sins of the British didn't even involve doing anything to Iraq or Egypt directly!

That's why I say you are hunting for moral "deep pockets" instead of actual responsibility. Ask yourself why you are averting your gaze from the actual perpetrators of the violence.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

NadineSC @February 18, 2009 9:19 PM: It is true that 'In none of these cases were the minorities driven out by the Western powers. Not one.' It is also true that Pilate washed his hands. To be sure there is correlation. But consistent correlation is often more than a coincidence. If I pour gasoline all over a house and someone else throws a match, I am at least as guilty of arson as he is. When I see situations were peoples have co-existed for thousands of years and are suddenly torn apart, and there is consistently a preceding event, I place the responsibility on the preceding event.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed @February 18, 2009 8:21 PM:

ThoughtfulTed @February 17, 2009 10:03 PM: You are not qualified as yet to express an opinion, let alone interject yourself in other people's discussions. You must first reach the maturity of a 13 year-old. SO, please refrain from addressing me or injecting yourself in discussions till then.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Amviennava,

Recently, since say 1900, the problems of minorities in Arab countries are actually the result by the 'Christian' West: The British rules Palestine for 30 years, and the minorities became refugees; The British and French invaded Egypt in 1956 and the minorities again became refugees; the Americans invaded Iraq in 2003 and the minorities again became refugees!

As I mentioned before, you don't get to outlaw history because you disapprove. It has its own laws and Nature abhors a vaccuum.

In none of these cases were the minorities driven out by the Western powers. Not one. Yet, in the typical fashion of today's Left, you skip over the hard work of discovering what actually happened to blame the moral "deep pockets" of the Western actor, as if Arabs could never ever be responsible for their own actions (unlike the Jews, who as we have seen, get blamed not only for their own actions but everybody else's as well).

This kind of thinking treats Arabs as automatons or children. To my way of thinking, it's even more racist than the old-time imperialists, who may have thought the Arabs were Wogs but thought the Wogs were capable of improvement. Today's thinking doesn't seek to curtail murderous Arab reactions but merely to pass the blame to any handy Western actors. If there are no handy Western actors to blame, Arab-on-Arab violence gets no attention whatsoever.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Posted on February 18, 2009 19:50

rick22407 :
ThoughtfulTed:

“And there wasn’t even an AIPAC then.”

Sure there was:

“Truman's Jewish war buddy and ex-business partner, Eddie Jacobson, visited him for the first time at the White House on June 26, 1946, bringing with him some American Zionist officials. This was the first of many such visits by Jacobson…”

“However, Zionists had launched an intense campaign against Morrison-Grady…”

“Truman brought to the meeting "a sheaf of telegrams about four inches thick from various Jewish people." He stated that he was "put out" with the Jews, that he had no use for them and did not care what happened to them. According to Henry Wallace, Truman said, "Jesus Christ couldn't please them when he was here on earth, so how can anyone expect that I would have any luck?" …”

“He wrote to Eleanor Roosevelt on August 23, 1947, apparently in the wake of one or another Jewish terrorist atrocity: "I fear very much that the Jews are like all underdogs. When they get on top they are just as intolerant and cruel as the people were to them when they were underneath. I regret this situation very much because my sympathy has always been on their side." …” [Prophetic eh?]

“The Jews, I find are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog. Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes…”
________________________________________________

So, Truman, like many at the time, harbored some anti-Semitic feelings. So what?
There was no AIPAC nor anything even approaching it. You seem to have some kind of trouble with citizens of a country petitioning its government in support of a particular viewpoint or idea. All you do is exhibit your own underlying totalitarian tendencies. You sound like a Nazi, as a matter of fact.
The source goes on to explain that Truman's main problem with a Jewish State was that he didn't believe it could survive against huge Arab armies without military help from the US. This he was unwilling to commit to.
He went ahead and recognized the new state anyway, against the advice of his basically anti-Semitic State Department, because he believed intensely in the moral right of Israel to exist as a Jewish State.
Luckily for Truman and the US, Israel proved to be quite capable of protecting itself without US military help.
You have nothing important to add to this discussion; you operate solely from a position of hatred and bigotry, the very problems that gave rise to the conflict to begin with.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

rick22407 :
Arab Citizens of Israel

Here is a link for those who would like to check out a few facts on the civil liberties of the Israeli Arab citizens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

While formally equal according to Israeli law, a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:

The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs…
_________________________________________________

So, what's new. The Arabs have always been a potential fifth column, a fact that is responsible for many of the restrictions they face. With peace between Israel and the Arabs, the discrimination should dissolve.
Nevertheless, perhaps you could provide us with the actual number of Israeli Arabs who have chosen to leave the country in which they undergo all this terrible discrimination, or will you try to argue that they are being held prisoner.
The Arabs of Israel are well aware that they have the best living conditions of any Arabs in the Middle East, save for the oil rich shiekdoms, that is.
LOL

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Amviennava,

You have switched the meaning of "multicultural". The modern Western meaning is "valuing all cultures equally by their own standards, not setting one above another". You are using it merely in the sense of a land having both majority and minority cultures in it. Not the same meaning at all.

It is Western countries that have enshrined the notion of "human rights" for all people. Muslim Arabs don't have this notion. Instead they have the notion of "dhimmi" a tolerated second-class status for Christians and Jews under Muslim rule. It is this notion that makes the notion of Jewish rule anywhere abhorrent to them.

If you look at the actual status of Copts in Egypt or Kurds in Syria, you will see it's not so good at all. Since the Kurds live in Syria, Iraq and Iran as well as Turkey, they have Arabs and Persians to fight, as well as Turks.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Amvienava,

Whether they consider themselves part of a nation or a tribe, or any other grouping, the land is theirs. It is incumbent on no individual, conqueror, or even international organization, to rearrange them.

However much you declare history illegal, you can't stop it. The Holy Roman Empire was ended by Napoleon, then the allied Victors rearranged Europe after 1815. This notion that every little pocket of people should decide for themselves is of very recent date and is usually unworkable, because no matter how small the unit, it has subparts that want to secede from it. It can only work in the few cases where the people have the "country idea" so strongly that they are willing to build the country for themselves and fight for it against everybody.

Those who expound the "autonomy for everybody" idea have no answer for this, except as a practical matter to ignore the messy realities of nation-building in most places and condemn them only where they have a political grudge, which is usually against Israel. Who mentions the Turkish massacres of Greeks or Armenians, or demands that the refugees of Smyrna should get to go home?

Firstly, note that the 'honest broker' (the US) did not discuss the proposal [Taba] with the Palestinians; it was a fait accompli!. Secondly, there actually never was a proposal presented to the Palestinians for them to accept or reject it etc. etc.

I have read endless apologies of the sort, usually by Agha and Malley, all designed to obfuscate the results of Camp David and Taba. Basically, to believe this stuff you have to believe that President Clinton is a liar, Dennis Ross is a liar, Barak and Ben-Ami are liars, everybody is a liar except the sainted Arafat. They all say that proposals were presented, that a contiguous 95% of the WB and 100% of Gaza was offered with land swaps to make the area 100%, and so on.

What the apologists are taking refuge in are the difficulties of the process. Bill Clinton said that he had found from experience if you "formally" presented anything to Arafat he would not respond with a compromise. He would only pocket the proposal as a concession and demand even more. So Clinton read Arafat the final proposals, which lets the Pal apologists claim they didn't exist.

BTW, it took the apologists a while to get into gear in 2001. When Arafat first flew home, he very proudly declared that he "had turned over the table" and refused the deal over "right of return". The negotiators had settled on borders; it was "right of return" (to Israel!) that broke the deal. Saeb Erekat said so, he was the Pal negotiator.

Moreover note the dates: 1937, 1948, 1967, 1979, 1991, 1993, 2000. An Arab Pal state could have been established in any of those years if the Arab states weren't determined never to compromise. They will fight to the last Palestinian for the destruction of Israel.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:


AMviennaVA :
NadineSC, Apparently we will 'talk' asynchronously :^)

Blah, blah, blah, etc., etc., etc.

Lastly, you claim that if the Palestinian struggle was a classic independence they would have taken advantag of the 'opportunities' to establish an 'independent Palestine'. This is usually followed by offering as an example the refusal by the Palestinians to agree to the agreement that Clinton and Barak made in 2000. I know that you did not raise that but I will use it as an example (it is recent and rather clear): Firstly, note that the 'honest broker' (the US) did not discuss the proposal with the Palestinians; it was a fait accompli!. Secondly, there actually never was a proposal presented to the Palestinians for them to accept or reject it (at least formally). It was never presented because every neutral party that reviewed it, declared that it was unacceptable at face value. It granted Israel everything it wanted and the Palestinians nothing. Not even a contiguous state in the West Bank! So the claim that the Palestinians do not take advantage of opportunities is valid only if one considers as 'opportunities' a surrender of their desire for a viable state, let alone the prospect of repatriation.
_______________________________________________

Sorry for interjecting myself in your "private" conversation, but you present some targets just too juicy to pass up.
I won't comment on your ignorant maunderings about populations and countries and land. I'll content myself to your ignorant maunderings about Camp David.
You may have missed it, but Yasser Arafat was present for the entire negotiation, how could there have been a negotiation if the Palestinians weren't represented. There was no fait accompli. The proposals were hammered out by negotiations which reached an agreement that Arafat refused to endorse.
Just for a sec, let's go back 60 years to the first opportunity the Arabs had to create a state, remember, the one where they started a war instead.
Your ignorant maunderings do not mark you as a thoughtful intellectual.
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

SMMajid_1 :
For an ardent Zionist like Peretz to label the Moldovan jew Avigdor Lieberman as a gangster and a neo-fascist, is like the Gestapo labelling its counterparts in the SS as well-dressed gentlemen occasionally prone to committing moral lapses in judgement!! Thoughtless Ted is cut from the same "intellectual" cloth as his mentor, revisionist historian Benny Morris, a Likud lapdog who initially made accurate assessments regarding Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestine, only to later recant his own findings due to a lack of moral courage!! Thoughtless Ted needs to clean up that fecal matter that is lodged between his ears in order to rearrange his distorted, dimwitted demogogery!! His insane, meshuganah comments are well suited for his inevitable membership in Lieberman's Zionazi party!! If Ted is so full of loathing for the indigeneous inhabitants of Palestine, then maybe he should go enroll in his precious IDF/SS before the next Israeli SHOAH against either GAza or the West Bank-don't delay, operators are standing by!!!
_________________________________________________

LOL.
If you can show me anywhere, anywhere, where I show loathing for the people of Palestine, I'll commit hara-kiri on the spot.
And most of the Arab inhabitants of Palestine are no more indigenous than the Jews.
You are a perfect and willing victim of the disgusting, lying Arab propaganda that has kept the Palestinmian people in misery for 60 years.
Go sit on your janbiyya and wiggle.
LOL

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

NadineSC @February 18, 2009 1:10 PM: A slight correction: Arab societies have traditionally been multicultural. I am neither Arab nor Muslim, but was born and raised in Arab countries. To be sure, there are times when conditions are not favorable to minorities. That happens everywhere as Native Americans, and let us say Aborigines in Australia, can attest. Recently, since say 1900, the problems of minorities in Arab countries are actually the result by the 'Christian' West: The British rules Palestine for 30 years, and the minorities became refugees; The British and French invaded Egypt in 1956 and the minorities again became refugees; the Americans invaded Iraq in 2003 and the minorities again became refugees! (Note that all of these cases concern the destruction of minorities that coexisted with Arabs and Muslims for thousands of years).

By the way, the main antagonists of the Kurds are the Turks, who are definitely not Arab.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

NadineSC, Apparently we will 'talk' asynchronously :^)

On Churchill (and imperialists in general): I discount what they have said not because I disagree, but because to them populations were (and still are) vague abstractions to be traded and/or manipulated. They are also quite willing to spout ideals, as long as they were not required to abide by their words. (A case in point is Turkey which sold Cyprus to Britain, but in the 1950's felt an urgent desire to bring it back into its loving embraces).

On Germany/Italy, there are always the fascinating qustions of what is a nation and when do a people constitute a nation. Philosophers and others will be discussing these for a long time. I prefer to concentrate on those who reside on the land. Whether they consider themselves part of a nation or a tribe, or any other grouping, the land is theirs. It is incumbent on no individual, conqueror, or even international organization, to rearrange them. However noble the reasons, the true impact is on the people who are being manipulated like chess pieces, always without their consent. It is wrong, regardless of the victim, perpetrator, or ideals. It has also always led to war and conflict.

Lastly, you claim that if the Palestinian struggle was a classic independence they would have taken advantag of the 'opportunities' to establish an 'independent Palestine'. This is usually followed by offering as an example the refusal by the Palestinians to agree to the agreement that Clinton and Barak made in 2000. I know that you did not raise that but I will use it as an example (it is recent and rather clear): Firstly, note that the 'honest broker' (the US) did not discuss the proposal with the Palestinians; it was a fait accompli!. Secondly, there actually never was a proposal presented to the Palestinians for them to accept or reject it (at least formally). It was never presented because every neutral party that reviewed it, declared that it was unacceptable at face value. It granted Israel everything it wanted and the Palestinians nothing. Not even a contiguous state in the West Bank! So the claim that the Palestinians do not take advantage of opportunities is valid only if one considers as 'opportunities' a surrender of their desire for a viable state, let alone the prospect of repatriation.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed:

“And there wasn’t even an AIPAC then.”

Sure there was:

“Truman's Jewish war buddy and ex-business partner, Eddie Jacobson, visited him for the first time at the White House on June 26, 1946, bringing with him some American Zionist officials. This was the first of many such visits by Jacobson…”

“However, Zionists had launched an intense campaign against Morrison-Grady…”

“Truman brought to the meeting "a sheaf of telegrams about four inches thick from various Jewish people." He stated that he was "put out" with the Jews, that he had no use for them and did not care what happened to them. According to Henry Wallace, Truman said, "Jesus Christ couldn't please them when he was here on earth, so how can anyone expect that I would have any luck?" …”

“He wrote to Eleanor Roosevelt on August 23, 1947, apparently in the wake of one or another Jewish terrorist atrocity: "I fear very much that the Jews are like all underdogs. When they get on top they are just as intolerant and cruel as the people were to them when they were underneath. I regret this situation very much because my sympathy has always been on their side." …” [Prophetic eh?]

“The Jews, I find are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog. Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes…”

MichaelNJ Author Profile Page:

“Look, Israel exists simply because the U.S. wanted a permanent, satellite state in the Middle East, for its political, military, and economic interests in the oil-rich region…”

"It sounds logical, but I think it was more like the British who wanted the Israelis to help them keep the Suez Canal open at the end of WW I."

Even though the second story is somewhat better than the first, I personally think "Alice in Wonderland" trumps them both.


ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Posted on February 18, 2009 18:35

rick22407 :
ThoughtfulTed:

“I suggest that what drove the Arabs was not fear of "threat" from the Jews, but simple religious hatred of the Jews…”

“The Arab countries were determined to destroy Israel stillborn, and to actually create an Arab state was unthinkable as long as there was a single Jew there.”

“I strongly doubt that you will ever mention any of this…”
_____________________________
Although not addressed to me, I’m sure that you won’t object if I attempt a reply…

First, I accept your narrative as presented and supported by your references. But I reject your conclusion that the Arabs were driven by “religious hatred”. They were driven by the God given right and obligation to protect their homes and land from the invading hordes.

Second, I agree that they were determined to destroy Israel stillborn, but so what. Again, that was their God given right and duty to preserve their homes and land for their families.
_______________________________________________

Actually, I was hoping for an intelligent reply, but I'll take whatever I can get.
LOL
Invading hordes, indeed. At the time there were 1.3 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews. The surrounding Arab world had another 40 million or so. Invading hordes??
LOL my sides hurt.
Obviously you didn't bother to read my sources, and you haven't commented on the fact that they were supposed to be making their own state with their own hordes.
Ricky baby, you slay me.
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

rick22407 :
Here is the link to support my previous post…

http://www.mideastweb.org/us_supportforstate.htm

etc., etc., etc.

“The policy was undoubtedly influenced by electoral considerations. Loy Henderson admitted, "Many of the leaders of the Republican Party, including Dewey...were almost constantly criticizing Truman for failure to give full support to the Zionists. If Truman had taken positions that would have resulted in a failure to establish the Jewish State, he would almost certainly have been defeated in the November [1948] elections since the Zionists had almost the full support of the Congress, the United States media, and most of the American people. The new Republican Administration would then have gone along with the Zionists." …”

It sounds like today…Obama is up against the same cabal.
________________________________________________

Rick, you slay me. LOL. I haven't laughed so hard since answering Optimist3.

A cabal, huh?
The Congress?
The Media?
The American people?
The Republicans?
The President?

And there wasn't even an AIPAC then.
LOL
You're a bad joke.
LOL

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Here is the link to support my previous post…

http://www.mideastweb.org/us_supportforstate.htm

“About 250,000 Jewish displaced persons, refugees who had survived Nazi concentration camps, exile in Siberia and partisan battles, were now living in miserable camps in Europe, awaiting clearance for immigration and final settlement. The US, at Truman's instigation, began pressuring the British to modify their Palestine policy and admit displaced persons to Palestine. At the same time, Truman tried to gain support for admission of Jewish displaced persons to the United States. However, domestic opposition to enlarging immigration for Jews was fierce and adamant…”

“Truman was still averse to the idea of a Jewish state despite his support for immigration, mostly out of concern that it would require excessive US resources to defend it. This concern was to surface again and again and influence policy in the months ahead…”

“The State Department and Defense Department were working hard to dissuade Truman from the partition plan…”

“The policy was undoubtedly influenced by electoral considerations. Loy Henderson admitted, "Many of the leaders of the Republican Party, including Dewey...were almost constantly criticizing Truman for failure to give full support to the Zionists. If Truman had taken positions that would have resulted in a failure to establish the Jewish State, he would almost certainly have been defeated in the November [1948] elections since the Zionists had almost the full support of the Congress, the United States media, and most of the American people. The new Republican Administration would then have gone along with the Zionists." …”

It sounds like today…Obama is up against the same cabal.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

TalkingHead:

“Look, Israel exists simply because the U.S. wanted a permanent, satellite state in the Middle East, for its political, military, and economic interests in the oil-rich region…”

It sounds logical, but I think it was more like the British who wanted the Israelis to help them keep the Suez Canal open at the end of WW I.

President Truman actually wanted to bring the European Jewish Refugees to America following WW II; but alas it was an election year, 60% of Americans opposed that idea, and Dewey was killing him in the poles. So he caved and instructed his Ambassador to the UN to vote for partition in spite of his State Department which was strongly opposed.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed:

“I suggest that what drove the Arabs was not fear of "threat" from the Jews, but simple religious hatred of the Jews…”

“The Arab countries were determined to destroy Israel stillborn, and to actually create an Arab state was unthinkable as long as there was a single Jew there.”

“I strongly doubt that you will ever mention any of this…”
_____________________________
Although not addressed to me, I’m sure that you won’t object if I attempt a reply…

First, I accept your narrative as presented and supported by your references. But I reject your conclusion that the Arabs were driven by “religious hatred”. They were driven by the God given right and obligation to protect their homes and land from the invading hordes.

Second, I agree that they were determined to destroy Israel stillborn, but so what. Again, that was their God given right and duty to preserve their homes and land for their families.

TalkingHead1 Author Profile Page:

Look, Israel exists simply because the U.S. wanted a permanent, satellite state in the Middle East, for its political, military, and economic interests in the oil-rich region, inhabited and controlled by the Jews who must be loyal to the U.S. for their own survival and existence as sovereign nationals surrounded by hostile Arab/Muslim neighbors. It's a quid pro quo based on the mutually beneficial, vital interests of both Israel and the U.S. Arguments about Israel's right to exist based on anything else is all just intellectual exercises in futility.

SMMajid_1 Author Profile Page:

For an ardent Zionist like Peretz to label the Moldovan jew Avigdor Lieberman as a gangster and a neo-fascist, is like the Gestapo labelling its counterparts in the SS as well-dressed gentlemen occasionally prone to committing moral lapses in judgement!! Thoughtless Ted is cut from the same "intellectual" cloth as his mentor, revisionist historian Benny Morris, a Likud lapdog who initially made accurate assessments regarding Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestine, only to later recant his own findings due to a lack of moral courage!! Thoughtless Ted needs to clean up that fecal matter that is lodged between his ears in order to rearrange his distorted, dimwitted demogogery!! His insane, meshuganah comments are well suited for his inevitable membership in Lieberman's Zionazi party!! If Ted is so full of loathing for the indigeneous inhabitants of Palestine, then maybe he should go enroll in his precious IDF/SS before the next Israeli SHOAH against either GAza or the West Bank-don't delay, operators are standing by!!!

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Posted on February 18, 2009 12:57

optimist3 :
Nadinesc:
"The problem for the Arabs of Palestine in 1948 was that the Jews had got the country idea very strongly but the Arabs did not have it yet. The Arabs were still organized on the city level. Furthermore, the Arabs had lots of places they could run to to avoid the war while the Jews had no choice but to stand and fight. If the Jews lost, they would have been slaughtered and they knew it."

Unpacking this one is complicated.

Questions (for the crowd): did the Arabs fail to understand the "threat" to them posed by inclinations by Jews to form a state? What would have driven a multicultural society to strive for an ethnic and religion based nation-state? What part might that lack of striving have played as Zionist national militants marched upon their townships intent upon establishing a Jewish state?
_____________________________________________

Considering that the Arabs were also supposed to be forming their own state at the same time, it's hard to understand why they would consider that a threat - unless they had motives which had nothing to do with mere geopolitics.

http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees1.htm

I have posted this to you before and have yet to hear a single argument based upon it. It is a clear, factual, and unbiased account of the history of the beginning of the Arab-Israel War and beyond. It contains the arguments of both sides, and is considered, by both sides, to be fair, honest, and scrupulous. Both sides must get their facts from somewhere, and this is a damn good place.
So is this one:
http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm

I suggest that what drove the Arabs was not fear of "threat" from the Jews, but simple religious hatred of the Jews. We know that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem sat out the war in Berlin, from where he directed Arab attacks against Jews.
The Arab people who were living in Palestine, were mere pawns in the game being played by the Arab nations. Most of them wanted nothing more than to live peacefully and pursue their farming or business or whatever, but they weren't allowed.
The Arab countries were determined to destroy Israel stillborn, and to actually create an Arab state was unthinkable as long as there was a single Jew there. Thus war, more war, losing war, refugees, etc., etc., etc.
All of this can be found in the link above.

I confess to being puzzled by whom it is you consider to be "multicultural?"

I strongly doubt that you will ever mention any of this; you'll call me a madman, a paid blogger, aggressive and nasty, or words to that effect, but I doubt that you will ever come up with a rational argument.
I am strongly of the opinion that you are, indeed, Hamas, especially considering your odious dismissal of Fatah as Israeli bagmen.
If I am correct, you are guilty of a great deal more than mere intellectual dishonesty.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Europe apologizes to Israel for poll

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/04/1067708209067.html

The European Commission has apologized to Israel for a new opinion poll that shows that Israel is the country most regarded as a threat to world peace by ordinary Europeans.

The president of the European Commission, Roman Prodi, said the results "point to the continued existence of a bias that must be condemned out of hand", and "to the extent that this may indicate a deeper, more general prejudice against the Jewish world, our repugnance is even more radical".

The telephone poll, part of ongoing surveys by the European Union, sampled 7500 respondents in all 15 EU states.

Presented with the names of 14 countries, respondents were asked if they regarded each in turn as a threat to world peace. The results, released on Monday, showed that 59 per cent agreed that Israel was a threat to world peace. The US came equal second on 53 per cent with Iran and North Korea.

Iraq came next on 52 per cent, followed by Afghanistan on 50. Libya, Saudi Arabia, China, India, Somalia, Russia, Syria and Pakistan all scored less than 50 per cent. Palestine was not listed because, the EU says, it is not a country.

The Israeli Government's Minister for Jerusalem and the Jewish Diaspora, Natan Sharansky, said that "behind the 'political' criticism of Israel lies nothing other than pure anti-Semitism".

The Simon Wiesenthal Centre, an international group founded to protect Jewish rights, said the survey "shows that anti-Semitism is deeply embedded within European society" and that Europe should be frozen out of any Middle East peacemaking efforts. But Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said the findings reflected the distorted nature of the list-based question and should not be put down to anti-Semitism. "We should not get excited by it," he said.

A dissenting note came in yesterday's mass-circulation daily Ma'ariv, in which Hemi Shalev wrote that: "Despite all this, we cannot deny the fact that Israel too does its share by its insistence on continuing to settle in the territories, expropriate Palestinian land to build the separation fence (and) embitter the Palestinians' lives . . . even when this only increases resentment, hatred and support for terrorism."

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Posted on February 18, 2009 12:16

optimist3 :
ThoughfulTed:
"You are so full of cr*p it's flowing out of your ears....You never present facts, only lies and opinions...LOL... point out your stupidity and lack of any sense at all...That's not a "personal" attack, its simply the truth...You are an ignorant bigot...LOL...You are also a fool."

Need I say anything more? Ted you're a madman suggesting that you have a monopoly on "facts."
"LOL."

______________________________________________

LOL.
I never claimed to have a monopoly on facts, merely that you have and present none at all.
You could make me look pretty stupid by just presenting some of those little things to prove your arguments.
Frankly, I'm not the least bit worried.
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

optimist3 :
"Make the Jews and Arabs share one state - a secular democracy - and leave it at that."
____________________________________________

Ted replies: "And let's put all the "ethnic" nations of Europe into one nation. I'm sure they'd love that. And while were at it, let's force all the Asian nations into one country too...LOL...I would have no objection to a single world state...but it ain't gonna happen so you'd better get used to our ethnic differences and learn to live with them.

Finally, here is a rebuttal with which I agree with Ted. The idea that Europeans or Americans for that matter can "make" or force a nation and state to do anything at all is, well, European.

The "Arabs of Palestine" and the "Israeli's" must determine for themselves the character and makeup of their "state." How human rights of minority populations are treated, and, the means by which these negotiations are secured, and, the extent to which member states adhere to the findings of the international institutions to which they belong are critical factors--if states such as Israel--which are past the point of return--wish to avoid becoming known as pariah states.

The state of Israel must decide whether it will continue to decline into a belligerent, fascist "racial state," or, struggle to retain the remnant of its' "democratic nature." That's what the fuss is about. That and the pratfalls of losing American opinion--which has been critical to the existence of Israel.

Increasingly that opinion is changing as the "mask is off."
_______________________________________________

LOL. You get no smarter with time, do you?

I notice that you agree with me that no one can force anyone to do anything (which I actually never said, by the way) while completely ignoring my statement about your ridiculous argument about ethnic states in the first place. Either you are a master of disingenuous misdirection, or simply too ignorant to carry on a reasonable argument.
LOL
Israel is not turning into a fascist state and is not suffering from any loss of support either from governments or the public.
I have pointed you several times to the various polls showing support for Israel somewhere about 60% and support for Hamas at about 15%. That hasn't changed whether you acknowledge it or not.
LOL

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Analysis: Amman caught between Hamas and Fatah

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304811823&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

This is interesting… King Abdullah II of Jordan is being pressured to move toward the Hamas camp and Islamic resistance movements…

"Jordan is an absolute monarchy, not a constitutional monarchy, which means the king has the power of authority over the government and the parliament," said Samer Libdeh, an Amman-based senior fellow at the Washington-based Center for Liberty in the Middle East, a think tank that promotes democracy in the region.

"The parliament does not have decision-making leverage over foreign policy issues," he said.

The move does, however, reflect increasing tension between those within the country who seek to inch closer to Hamas and its supporters, rather than to the more moderate Fatah and its supporters.

"The major issue is that the majority of parliamentarians, as well as the current establishment in office from the palace and leading intelligence officers, have been calling to have close ties with Hamas," Libdeh said.

More of the country's elite, including parliamentarians, are now choosing to support Hamas as the best way to confront Israel, he added.

This was evident when a number of conservative tribal leaders visited Damascus-based Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal during Israel's three-week military offensive.

The move was considered a major shift, as tribal leaders generally stay in line with King Abdullah's policies. It was considered a clear message to him that Hamas better suited Jordan's strategic interests, Libdeh said.

The rise of Islamism in the region is also influencing Abdullah, who has traditionally sided with the moderate camp and who appears to be at a crossroads, Libdeh said. Jordan is now flirting with the idea of moving closer to Islamic resistance movements and the countries that have supported them, such as Syria and, more recently, Qatar, he said…

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Nadinesc:
"The Muslim Arab idea of fair is this: Muslim Arabs rule, everybody else takes whatever the Arabs dish out to them."

Finally, substituting identities into the sentence above very well depicts the tragic flaw of the modern state system being thrust upon multicultural territories. Hence the ongoing apprehension among "Israeli Arabs", or is it "Arab Israeli's", or, is it "Palestinian Israelis", or, is it "Palestinian Arabs," or, is it...

i.e. those at the end of the bayonet, see things quite differently.

In the eyes of occupied Palestinians: "The Israeli's idea of fair is this: Israeli's rule, everybody else takes whatever the Israeli's dish out to them."

In the eyes of Kurds: "The Turks (Iraqi's, etc) idea of fair is this:.."

In the eyes of Irish Catholics: "The English idea of fair is this..."

In the eyes of...

Good day.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Nadinesc:
"Having set up a false and ahistorical premise, you naturally draw false and ahistorical conclusions."

The "premise" you allege were questions (which you fail to answer). The conclusions drawn were yours.

That the people of Mandatory Palestine feared the planning for a "Jewish State" (because by its' very nature the formation of a state is discriminatory) is indisputable. My suggestion: open up your frame of reference to consider the narratives of others. Otherwise, draw down on the sanctimonious self-assertion.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Nadinesc:
"What would have driven a multicultural society to strive for an ethnic and religion based nation-state? "

Are you calling the Arabs "multicultural"? Ha, that's a good one. Arabs tend to be homicidally monocultural. That's a big problem for all the minorities of the Mideast...Try asking the Druze or the Kurds how "multicultural" the Arabs are....The Muslim Arab idea of fair is this: Muslim Arabs rule, everybody else takes whatever the Arabs dish out to them. Arabs are not hampered by notions of human rights or multiculturalism, esp. the Muslims. Naturally, they objected very much to the idea of Jews whom they despised ruling anywhere!...Having set up a false and ahistorical premise, you naturally draw false and ahistorical conclusions.?"

Interesting how quickly you shift from a gracious rational argument into a screaming harpie.

Now you revert to defining a "culture" as a race. The culture inhabiting mandatory Palestine at the time of the initial Jewish ingathering was more than (your detested) "muslim Arab" culture. Instead of expanding upon the topic, you squeeze back into attack mode.

Now you go on to make sweeping condemnations of muslim-Arab cultures, which you cannot possibly defend upon further examination. Oh well. No sense arguing with a true believer.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

"What would have driven a multicultural society to strive for an ethnic and religion based nation-state? "

Are you calling the Arabs "multicultural"? Ha, that's a good one. Arabs tend to be homicidally monocultural. That's a big problem for all the minorities of the Mideast. Try asking the Druze or the Kurds how "multicultural" the Arabs are.

The Muslim Arab idea of fair is this: Muslim Arabs rule, everybody else takes whatever the Arabs dish out to them. Arabs are not hampered by notions of human rights or multiculturalism, esp. the Muslims. Naturally, they objected very much to the idea of Jews whom they despised ruling anywhere!

Having set up a false and ahistorical premise, you naturally draw false and ahistorical conclusions.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Amvienava,

You say "Today's Palestinian movement is a classic national independence struggle."

No, it's not. Would that it were. If it were a national independence struggle, its leaders would have seized one of their many chances to create an independent Palestine. But none of the solutions were acceptable because the central goal of the Palestinian movement is to destroy Israel, not create Palestine. Did you ever hear Arafat talk about the 'content' of Palestine, how it would be ruled, what it would achieve? Not once. It was all about "liberation" = kill the Jews (in Arabic).

You have to remember that the Palestinian movement didn't really go anywhere until the Palestinian Arabs were first united under one government, which was Israel's. You never heard one single word about creating "Palestine" in the WB or Gaza from 1948 to 1967.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Blood and Water, Part Two

Without fair water distribution, the Middle East peace process is all dried up.

A variety of explanations have been offered as to why Israel is reluctant to redistribute water resources. The most obvious reason is that doing so would require a change in Israeli lifestyles: no more private swimming pools and green lawns. But the motives go deeper than that, according to Robin Twite, director of the Environment Program for the Jerusalem-based Israeli/Palestine Center for Research and Information, a public-policy think-tank. Twite says Israelis have what he calls a "mythical belief in development." …

Henry Gold, an engineer and chair of Israel's Committee for Public Transport, says that when it comes to the water crisis, the prevailing attitude is that technology will save the day. "The government has just decided to start building what will be the world's largest water desalination plant," Gold said. "And over the next 10 years, 20 more desalination plants are being established. But this is irresponsible, as desalination can only be part of the solution. Reducing consumption and encouraging responsible use remains critical."

Gold said the emphasis needs to shift toward political action and measures to make water conservation economically enticing. "In Israel at the moment, the local municipality sells water. It buys the water from the central company and sells it on at a 300- to 400-percent mark-up. Under this system, the municipality has no interest whatsoever in conserving water use. But the central government is doing nothing to change it."

Milk and Honey on the Other Side?

If the present water situation is tense, the future one is simply untenable, according to Ayman Rabi, director of the Palestinian Hydrology Group. "At the moment, the water problem is one of efficient management above efficient use," Rabi says. "There is enough for the current populations of Israel and Palestine, it just needs to be distributed fairly. The problem is that these populations are projected to double by 2025. There will, quite simply, not be enough water to sustain this population if today's consumption pattern remains unchanged."

Perhaps mindful of that, the Israelis have made some attempts to address water consumption. Some 53 percent of drinking-quality water in Israel is currently used for agriculture. In 1995, a Ministry of Agriculture commission recommended canceling allocations and subsidies to the agriculture sector, suggesting that if farmers bought water at market prices, they would use it more efficiently. The Water Commissioner's office, however, rejected this idea outright.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Nadinesc:
"The problem for the Arabs of Palestine in 1948 was that the Jews had got the country idea very strongly but the Arabs did not have it yet. The Arabs were still organized on the city level. Furthermore, the Arabs had lots of places they could run to to avoid the war while the Jews had no choice but to stand and fight. If the Jews lost, they would have been slaughtered and they knew it."

Unpacking this one is complicated.

Questions (for the crowd): did the Arabs fail to understand the "threat" to them posed by inclinations by Jews to form a state? What would have driven a multicultural society to strive for an ethnic and religion based nation-state? What part might that lack of striving have played as Zionist national militants marched upon their townships intent upon establishing a Jewish state?

Did the Arabs initiate the "war" that ensued--and thus fail to seek a state because they could "run to...lots of places?"

Did the Arabs not value their homes, schools, businesses, ports, infrastructure into which they had for generations invested enormous labor, money and effort--when the "war" came? Does this sharp memory not shape current relations?

The origins are indeed complicated--with violence on both sides. And what of the present?

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Amvienava,

You point out that people don't become refugees for no reason. That is certainly true. They have to be very frightened. However, it does not follow that the only thing the Palestinian Arabs could have been frightened of in 1948 was attack by the Jews. That's an assumption, and a false one if you look at the historical record.

Attacks from the Jews were only one of the things the Palestinian Arabs were afraid of. You have to remember the situation. It was known since the Partition vote in Nov 1947 that there would be a war. In the months that followed, the "effendi class" as the Brits called them, left Palestine to avoid the war. This is really where not being organized as a country comes into play, because their absence left the Arab population leaderless and frightened of ALL the armies in the field, not just the Jewish ones.

By April it was known that the Brits would bug out on May 15 and the foreign Arab armies would invade. The Arab High Committee warned the Arabs of Palestine to get out of the way of the great Arab victory, lest they be caught sitting next to the Jews and be taken for renegades. This threat was very real! So the Arab communities of Haifa and Joffa began to evacuate. This is a direct quote from a British police report dated April 26, 1948:

An appeal has been made to the Arabs by the Jews to reopen their shops and businesses in order to relieve the difficulties of feeding the Arab population. Evacuation was still going on yesterday and several trips were made by 'Z' craft to Acre. Roads too, were crowded with people leaving Haifa with all their belongings. At a meeting yesterday afternoon Arab leaders reiterated their determination to evacuate the entire Arab population and they have been given the loan of ten 3-ton military trucks as from this morning to assist the evacuation.
http://www.mideastweb.org/haifa1948.htm

70,000 Arabs left from Haifa alone, so that's 10% of the entire Arab refugee population right there.

This was far from the only reason for the Arab refugees, but it was a big one. Later, as the promised Arab victory failed to materialize, the remaining Arab populations became panicky, a trend the Haganah did nothing to discourage. Arabs were also driven out of areas of heavy fighting such as the Jerusalem corridor.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

"Make the Jews and Arabs share one state - a secular democracy - and leave it at that."
____________________________________________

Ted replies: "And let's put all the "ethnic" nations of Europe into one nation. I'm sure they'd love that. And while were at it, let's force all the Asian nations into one country too...LOL...I would have no objection to a single world state...but it ain't gonna happen so you'd better get used to our ethnic differences and learn to live with them.

Finally, here is a rebuttal with which I agree with Ted. The idea that Europeans or Americans for that matter can "make" or force a nation and state to do anything at all is, well, European.

The "Arabs of Palestine" and the "Israeli's" must determine for themselves the character and makeup of their "state." How human rights of minority populations are treated, and, the means by which these negotiations are secured, and, the extent to which member states adhere to the findings of the international institutions to which they belong are critical factors--if states such as Israel--which are past the point of return--wish to avoid becoming known as pariah states.

The state of Israel must decide whether it will continue to decline into a belligerent, fascist "racial state," or, struggle to retain the remnant of its' "democratic nature." That's what the fuss is about. That and the pratfalls of losing American opinion--which has been critical to the existence of Israel.

Increasingly that opinion is changing as the "mask is off."

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Amvienava,

You say that Italy contained Italians before it became a country, Germany Germans, etc.

Well yes and no. They were Italians in the regional sense, but if you asked them "would you fight for Italy?" they would have said, "Are you nuts? I will fight for my city, Florence" or Rome, or Naples, etc. Similarly for the Germans when they were part of the Holy Roman Empire.

Before a country can exist as a reality it has to exist as an idea. It wasn't until the 19th century when large number of Italians got the idea that they ought to become one country that the Resurgiamento could happen.

The problem for the Arabs of Palestine in 1948 was that the Jews had got the country idea very strongly but the Arabs did not have it yet. The Arabs were still organized on the city level. Furthermore, the Arabs had lots of places they could run to to avoid the war while the Jews had no choice but to stand and fight. If the Jews lost, they would have been slaughtered and they knew it.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Amviennava,

I appreciate the chance to have a civil discussion with you. Unfortunately my long post of yesterday never made it so I will try again to answer your points in several smaller posts.

About Churchill being "irrelevant" because he was an imperialist. Interesting definition there, where you get to declare ruling powers irrelevant because you don't like them. However, Britain did rule Palestine from 1918 to 1948, having taken over the ruins of the Ottoman Empire. The Turks were imperialists too, so were they "irrelevant" also? Just asking. The modern borders of the Mideast: Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq and Egypt were ALL drawn by Churchill. Like it or not.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed:
"You are an opinionated know-nothing masquerading as a scholar or something. I can't figure out what exactly."

Ted's "Facts": Let's have a look at the merits of his points:
1. "The Arab citizens of Israel have all the rights of any citizens in any western nation and are represented in the Knesset."

False. The Arab citizens of Israel have massive restrictions placed upon them by Israel--not the least of which was demonstrated recently by being driven from the Knesset. Your assertion is just simply dishonest. There is an abundance of evidence, which you, being a self-proclaimed expert on the matter of Israeli "democracy" know very well. Yet you'll falsify to serve the wishes of the state. Most Israelis, however, are more honest than Israel's avuncular apologists.

2. "The Arab residents of the West Bank and Gaza have full freedom to participate in the rights and electoral politics of the Palestinian Authority.

Fraud. "So say's Israel." Palestinians elected the Hamas party as their government. Israel and the U.S. immediately denied that outcome. Thus, Palestinians have rights only as Israel allows them to have rights--which means they have no rights at all. That you state "Arabs...have full freedom to participate in..the PA," indicates the depth of your fraud against self-determination--while whining that Palestinians refuse to "recognize Israel's right to exist." For years the PA have been bagmen, bought and paid for, by the state of Israel--as a means to control Palestinians who might resist the massive land-grab and systematic dispossession going on.

3. When and if they should ever decide that Israel is here to stay, they may form their own country and then do whatever the hell they want."

That's big of Israel.

So much for your "facts."

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Separate and Unequal (More from “Blood and Water”)

Yehezkel Lein from B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, explains the origins of this discrepancy succinctly: "Underlying Israel's water policy in the Occupied Territories was the desire to preserve the quantity of water it uses.”

Lein says a variety of methods were used to achieve this. First, Israel formalized the unequal division of the shared groundwater that was established prior to the occupation: capping Palestinian consumption, banning the digging of new wells, and putting quotas on how much water could be extracted from existing wells. Then it set about exploiting new water resources it didn't control before the 1967 War, such as the Eastern Aquifer in the West Bank. These new water resources primarily benefit the Israeli settlements that are still being established in those areas -- even though those settlements are illegal. (Under international law, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are defined as occupied territories and are therefore subject to the Geneva Conventions on the laws of war. The convention expressly prohibits moving people from the occupying county, i.e. Israel, into the occupied country, i.e. Palestine.)

The country also gave Israelis and settlers priority access to water: In the summer, when water is scare, the Israeli water company Mekorot shuts the valves of the main pipelines supplying Palestinian towns so that Israeli supplies remain unaffected.

The interim agreement of the Oslo peace process, signed by Israel and the Palestinian Authority in 1995, mandated zero reduction in the amount of water Israel was allowed to extract from the West Bank aquifers. Any additional water that the Palestinians needed was to come from new sources, not from a redistribution of existing sources. Israel, however, was given a veto on any water project aimed at tapping new sources and, over the past six years, has used that veto to block or delay almost all proposed projects.

Human rights organizations are unanimous in condemning these policies, pointing out that they violate fundamental tenants of human rights law (such as the right to good health and an adequate subsistence) as well as fundamental tenants of international law (such as the ban on using resources from occupied territory and the ban on distributing water in a discriminatory way).

Such organizations also point out that Israel's water policy heightens political resentment and, ultimately, makes reaching any peace agreement more difficult. No such agreement will be struck that does not entail a just resolution to the water issue.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

ThoughfulTed:
"You are so full of cr*p it's flowing out of your ears....You never present facts, only lies and opinions...LOL... point out your stupidity and lack of any sense at all...That's not a "personal" attack, its simply the truth...You are an ignorant bigot...LOL...You are also a fool."

Need I say anything more? Ted you're a madman suggesting that you have a monopoly on "facts."
"LOL."

whistling Author Profile Page:


Nothing but fetid, stupid lies, excuses, phony history and insults. Every sterotype of jews in history is shown to be true.

Zarkaria's column above those lies was invaluable.

And for those who are weary of Israel and the
zionists among us, this posting of rabble and
stink is welcome. It hastens the time. Ameria is through being used. Or even allowing the
stink. Don't doubt it for a moment.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Mathew:

“As has been pointed out previously, the "Palestinian" Arabs have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity, most recently when Ehud Barak offered nearly everything the "Palestinians" wanted - with the status of Jerusalem to be decided later.”

Here is a link to an article, Blood and Water, Part One that gives a picture of the actual situation as reported by Israeli human rights groups and casts some light on why the so called peace proposals offered by Israel to date are a sham.

http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2002/02/26/blood/

Excerpt: “Case in point: The Palestinians say they rejected a recent peace proposal from Israel because, among other things, it didn't give them control of water resources within their territory…

When viewed through the lens of one of those issues -- access to water -- the Palestinians seem to have a point. International law states that most of the water sources in the area are international resources, and as such must be shared by Israelis and Palestinians according to the principle of equitable and reasonable use. Unfortunately, equitable and reasonable are two words that cannot be used to describe the water situation in Israel and Palestine.

At present, Israelis receive five times as much water per person as Palestinians. In Gaza, the disparity is even more striking, with settlers getting seven times as much water as their Palestinian neighbors. Stated differently, on average, Israelis get 92.5 gallons per person per day, while Palestinians in the West Bank get 18.5 gallons per person per day. The minimum quantity of water recommended by the U.S. Agency for International Development and the World Health Organization for household and urban use alone is 26.4 gallons per person per day...

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:


AMviennaVA :
ThoughtfulTed @February 17, 2009 10:03 PM: You are not qualified as yet to express an opinion, let alone interject yourself in other people's discussions. You must first reach the maturity of a 13 year-old. SO, please refrain from addressing me or injecting yourself in discussions till then.
_____________________________________________

LOL.
I hereby reprint the colloquy of which you don't like my interjection.
LOL

AMviennaVA :
optimist3 @February 16, 2009 10:35 PM (and Nadinesc): A little discussed fact is that Hammas acceepted the Meccah declaration in 2002 that calls for recognition of Israel and repatriation of the refugees (or exchange of land for the right). Only two parties affected by the conflict did not accept it: Israel and the US, whose position essentially is that the Palestinians (all of them) must surrender unconditionally. But Hammas is already on record as willing to recognize Israel, providing Israel earns the recognition.

_____________________________________________-

LOL.
You'll really have to link to this so-called Mecca Declaration. I tried to find it and all I see are a couple of internal Arab declarations of principles, but certainly nothing to which anyone, other than the signatories, had to agree. Not the US, not Israel, and Hamas is nowhere mentioned.
Are you trying to lie to us about something?
LOL
______________________________________________

I'm still waiting for an answer. Chastising me doesn't quite fill the bill.
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:


StephenD11 :
Why does everyone assume that a two-state solution is the only answer for peace? A two-state solution is premised on the same cancerous ideology that motivates this and every other bloody conflict around the world - ethnic nationalism. A two-state "solution" - to the extent it is even conceivable, given Israeli settlements within the West Bank - would be untenable and unjust.

Make the Jews and Arabs share one state - a secular democracy - and leave it at that. Apartheid regimes and ethnic cleansing ("expulsion?") are NOT ACCEPTABLE in the 21st century.

_______________________________________________

And let's put all the "ethnic" nations of Europe into one nation. I'm sure they'd love that. And while were at it, let's force all the Asian nations into one country too.
LOL
I would have no objection to a single world state,
but it ain't gonna happen so you'd better get used to our ethnic differences and learn to live with them.

faha1 Author Profile Page:

The greatest threat to Israel's existence as a Jewish state will not come from violent opposition from Palestinian groups such as Hamas. There are 1.3 million Arab Palestinians within the current borders of Israel. However there are another 2.8 million Arab Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinians do not realize this, but their best long term strategy would be to abandon the idea of a separate Palestinian nation and instead demand that the West Bank and Gaza be incorporated into Israel. With full voting rights, the Arab Palestinians would comprise 40% to 45% of the current electorate. Due to higher birth rates among Arab Palestinians, they would be a majority of the voting population within one or two generations. If the Arab Palestinians were to ever demand that they be incorporated into Israel, this would put the Israeli government in a very difficult position: either reject this option and create an independent Palestinian nation or agree to it and take the risk of an eventual Arab Palestinian majority government in Israel.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Posted on February 18, 2009 05:59

optimist3 :
ThoughtfulTed:
"the one about your being stupid, of course. You've just answered that one quite clearly...LOL...It won't work. You can fool the other stupes, but no one with half a brain could possibly take you seriously...Or perhaps you're not stupid, maybe you're just a liar?...LOL?"

Why would anyone want to debate a thug who employs vilification and personal attacks to degrade? Again, if you are speaking for Israel, cull your ritual abuses--that is if you want to mask the "democratic nature" of Israel. For me, I celebrate that Israel's attack dogs degrade their own con--making it increasingly embarrassing for American Jews to justify supporting their pet state.

__________________________________________

You are so full of cr*p it's flowing out of your ears.
You never present facts, only lies and opinions, and when I present facts you simply ignore them.
LOL
What do I have left except to point out your stupidity and lack of any sense at all.
That's not a "personal" attack, its simply the truth.
You are an ignorant bigot, and what any of this has to do with the democratic nature of Israel escapes me.
LOL
You are also a fool.

Matthew16 Author Profile Page:

Pt 3.

7. As has been pointed out previously, the "Palestinian" Arabs have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity, most recently when Ehud Barak offered nearly everything the "Palestinians" wanted - with the status of Jerusalem to be decided later. The Arabs rejected this unprecedented offer for peace, and instead launched a violent wave of terrorism against civilians, suicide-bombing restaurants, buses, pizzerias, malls…

8. Finally, on September the 11th 2001, while people across Great Britain, France, Canada, Israel, Australia, India, Japan, El Salvador, South Korea, and Germany all mourned with the United States, the indelible image seared in my brain was of "Palestinian" Arabs gleefully, joyfully, dancing in the streets. Even those Arab nations who may disagree with the United States on issues - the Emirati, the Bahraini, the Kuwaiti, the House of Saud, even had they been so inclined - were not so intemperate as to publically rejoice at America's pain.

So, how much should we care about the plight of the putative "Palestinian" people? As much as the neighboring Arab states? More than the "Palestinian" people do for their own cause? Perhaps we should learn to better decode the victimology propaganda of the "Palestinian" Arabs and their beguiled shills in the West, who seem to think that just by invoking against Israel such vitriol as "fascism" or "holocaust" will win the day. It won't. Israel will prevail against this latest existential threat, and grow stronger, and the United States will stand by her side.
Be well,
Matthew

Matthew16 Author Profile Page:

Pt 2.

4. There is historical precedent in the modern era for government-sponsored population transfers after a war. Germans were forced out of Eastern European and Central Asian homesteads and repatriated to Germany after WWII; the Serbs forced out of Kosovo by the Nazis and the Albanian collaborators were barred by Tito from returning; more than 100K Serbs forced out of their ancestral lands by the Albanians under NATO protection remain unable to return home, a decade after being force out; hundreds of thousands of Japanese were forced out of eastern Asia and repatriated to the Home Islands; ten million Hindu and Muslim Indians were forced from their homes in the buildup and aftermath of the split between India and Pakistan; and just shy of one million Jews were forced out of Arab lands after WWII, in partial response to the emerging Jewish state. Barely more peaceably, two million people were transferred between Greece and Turkey in the aftermath of WWI and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The Jews have been expelled from Arab lands - but the expulsion of Arabs from Israel was never completed, if ever there had even been an official policy to do so.

5. When Israel declared independence, only to be immediately attacked on all sides by Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon, the Arab countries and Persia all but completed their ethnic cleansing of Jews. Those people were welcomed into the state of Israel. When those Arabs who either fled Israel because the Arab attacking states told them to, or because they were subjected to ethnic cleansing by the nascent Israelis during their first existential war as a modern state, were those refugee Arabs welcomed into Arab lands? No, they were not - they and many of their descendents remain in refugee camps, because that is precisely where the Arab states want them - as symbols.

6. There is already a "Palestinian" state - it is called "The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan", formerly Transjordan and aka the "East Bank", where between 60%-80% of the population (at least 3 million people, at the low end) claim "Palestinian" origin and are ruled by a transplanted monarchy from deeper on the Arabian Peninsula.

Continued…

Matthew16 Author Profile Page:

Friends, a few points:
1. In the strictest sense, there are no "Palestinian" people. The people who today call themselves by that name were, seven decades ago, undifferentiated Arabs. These people belong to an umma - worldwide Islam - that decries national differentiation between Muslims and to whom borders mean little. Before Israeli independence, the Palestinian Philharmonic, the Palestinian Bank, and a dozen other organizations were Jewish, not Arab. It is only their shared experience vis-à-vis Israel that defines a "Palestinian" people.

2. Yasser Arafat, that pre-eminent face of "Palestinian Liberation" and terrorism? Born in Cairo. The lands of the Levant were not fully depopulated, despite Mark Twain's quote taken out of context, but neither was the population robust, either, as a result of internecine conflict, war, poor crop yields, and better opportunities elsewhere. Good luck finding acceptable, scientific demographic data, though - numbers are inflated or deflated depending on who owns the rice bowl - leaving us with anecdotal illumination. When the Jews, being highly motivated, began migrating in earnest to the Levant, "making the desert bloom" as they say, a lot of undifferentiated Arabs did indeed migrate to the area.

3. The lands currently described as "occupied" are, in fact, "unincorporated territories" - not having ever been their own state, and being under the control of other powers for 2500 years - including 1200 years under rule by Muslims, the Ottomans and Arabs. And did the Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, or the House of Saud, ever agitate for an independent state for their "Palestinian" brethren? No, they did not.

Continued…

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed @February 17, 2009 10:03 PM: You are not qualified as yet to express an opinion, let alone interject yourself in other people's discussions. You must first reach the maturity of a 13 year-old. SO, please refrain from addressing me or injecting yourself in discussions till then.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Daniel12:
"Oh good grief optimist3! How do you expect Israel to have an ideal democracy when she is constantly attacked by all Muslims and the Muslims within her so obviously would like Israel destroyed or at least a Muslim majority to exist? May your lies, deceits, cowardices be annihilated by the truth."

Incidentally, Daniel's comment above does bring out an important aspect of the current dilemma: whether Israel will choose to return to emphasize its "democratic nature" or, instead choose its' "racial nature."

At the end of the first Great War, during the Weimar Republic, Germans were faced with enemies on all sides--external and internal--and had a choice as to whether to favor the "democratic nature" of Germany, or, instead to favor Germany's "racial nature."

Into the fold came those who vociferously warned about the threat from within, from the "enemies of state," from the perils that the nation faced from an easily identifiable enemy--with very powerful associations abroad bent upon "destabilizing" Germany. Decidedly, Germans chose to favor the "racial nature" of the German state--and the radical nationalists prevailed.

Though the Israeli-right vilifies any who might draw such parallels--for fear that their intent will be revealed, such insights are essential to urging Israel to examine the risks in choosing one aspect, the "racial nature" of Israel, over the "democratic nature" of Israel.

Dangerously, the radical-nationalists within Israel have dominated the political landscape of Israel these past 30 years. That is the runaway train.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Nadine:
Karsh vs. Pappe:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8609385817102230170

Note Karsh's denial that any cleansing of Arabs took place or is ongoing. Like his central thesis, the Arabs willfully left-and continue to depart-their homes, settlements, and livelihoods.

Or no, it was their failure to agree to their dispossession by Israelis by clamoring for a state of their own handed them by the United Nations. Or no, it was the aggression of Arabs toward Jews who wanted only what was best for Arabs--by encouraging them to resettle and give up their lands to form an exclusively Arab state alongside Israel.

Perhaps it is (and was) out of recognition that there are (and were) better things to be had crouching within barbed wire fences? Or, perhaps it is some internal recognition of the superiority of Israeli Jews that causes the Arabs of Palestine to submit. Some thesis, that Karsh fellow.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Thanks Nadine for dragging out a link to "Campus Watch," America's well-funded "Fair and Balanced" watchdog group bent upon exposing any deviation from the prevailing dictat. Ephraim Karsh's commitment to that platform is unequivocal.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Daniel:
"The fact is the Israelis have always wanted to be just left alone. It was Muslim aggression which resulted in Israeli annexation of the West Bank, the Golan heights, the Gaza strip."

1. Of course Israel wants to be left alone. The institutional plunder of Arab lands, homes, lives, businesses is a sticking point.

2. "Muslim" aggression against Israel--since Israel staked its' claim upon the ruin of the Ottoman Empire--is a sticking point. How Israel treats its' minority population, with compromise, or by means of further degradation and violence, is a choice Israel has to make if it seeks to "exist" in that neighborhood.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Daniel:
"How do you expect Israel to have an ideal democracy when she is constantly attacked by all (Muslims and the Muslims) within her so obviously would like Israel destroyed or at least a Muslim majority to exist? "

Pray tell us how a state can be "democratic" if it has second class citizens within it--and laws denying basic protections to a minority population based upon racial and religious characteristics? You're right that Israel's "democracy" does have a demographic "problem." How Israel deals with Arabs defines her. Thus, the Arab, and increasingly the muslim world objects.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Daniel:
"The Muslims deny a holocaust occurred in Germany and have lying said that the Israelis are perpetrating a holocaust against the Palestinians when all Muslims have at one time or another have tried to destroy Israel"

Remember that it was Israel that set out to build a racially and religiously exclusive state. The construction of Israel depended upon the dispossession and displacement by force of hundreds of thousands of Arabs whose fear of being driven from their lands and homes was realized. Now, Arabs sympathize with the Palestinians made destitute by Israel, while they huddle in refugee camps--rightfully angry at Israel and the U.S.

Personally, I see nothing at all "mythical"about this analysis. The human rights of refugees is what I get my panties in a bunch over--and Israel, with a green light from the American uberdog, runs roughshod over those rights. No matter how hard Israel tries to deflect attention, the record speaks for itself.

daniel12 Author Profile Page:

Oh good grief optimist3! How do you expect Israel to have an ideal democracy when she is constantly attacked by all Muslims and the Muslims within her so obviously would like Israel destroyed or at least a Muslim majority to exist? May your lies, deceits, cowardices be annihilated by the truth.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Thanks for the tip Daniel.

:>)

Rick Jones, Fredericksburg, VA

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

[continued from previous post]

"Israeli-Arab advocacy organizations have challenged the Government's policy of demolishing illegal buildings in the Arab sector, and claimed that the Government was more restrictive in issuing building permits in Arab communities than in Jewish communities, thereby not accommodating natural growth."

"Israeli-Arab organizations have challenged as discriminatory the 1996 "Master Plan for the Northern Areas of Israel," which listed as priority goals increasing the Galilee's Jewish population and blocking the territorial contiguity of Arab towns."

"The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report stated that the 'Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory,' that the Government 'did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner.' As a result, 'serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure.'"

The 2007 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices notes that:

"According to a 2005 study at Hebrew University, three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children."

According to The Guardian, in 2006 just 5 percent of civil servants were Arabs, many of them hired to deal with other Arabs, despite the fact that Arab citizens of Israel comprise 20 percent of the population.

Although the Bedouin infant mortality rate is still the highest in Israel, and one of the highest in the developed world, The Guardian reports that in the 2002 budget, Israel's health ministry allocated Arab communities less than 0.6 percent of its budget for healthcare facility development.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

Arab Citizens of Israel

Here is a link for those who would like to check out a few facts on the civil liberties of the Israeli Arab citizens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

While formally equal according to Israeli law, a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:

The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs…

The 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices notes that:

"Approximately 93 percent of land in the country was public domain, including that owned by the state and some 12.5 percent owned by the Jewish National Fund (JNF). All public land by law may only be leased, not sold. The JNF's statutes prohibit the sale or lease of land to non-Jews. In October, civil rights groups petitioned the High Court of Justice claiming that a bid announcement by the Israel Land Administration (ILA) involving JNF land was discriminatory in that it banned Arabs from bidding."

[continued on next post]

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed:
"the one about your being stupid, of course. You've just answered that one quite clearly...LOL...It won't work. You can fool the other stupes, but no one with half a brain could possibly take you seriously...Or perhaps you're not stupid, maybe you're just a liar?...LOL?"

Why would anyone want to debate a thug who employs vilification and personal attacks to degrade? Again, if you are speaking for Israel, cull your ritual abuses--that is if you want to mask the "democratic nature" of Israel. For me, I celebrate that Israel's attack dogs degrade their own con--making it increasingly embarrassing for American Jews to justify supporting their pet state.


daniel12 Author Profile Page:

To optimist3 from Daniel. You mean the entire Muslim world is not continually threatening a minority (Israel) in the name of a civilization (Islamic) not to mention at least an ethnicity and probably a race which is not Jewish? To pace your words, what is the counter argument to that?

Your mythical view has mighty Israel beating down the Palestinians when it has been many more Muslims than the Palestinians persecuting the minority Jews in the land of Israel. Take the '67 war. The Muslims were vastly happy when they thought they would wipe Israel out. You heard no complaints then. But then Israel wins and the subject changes to the Israelis trying to murder the Palestinians. How duplicitous!

The fact is the Israelis have always wanted to be just left alone. It was Muslim aggression which resulted in Israeli annexation of the West Bank, the Golan heights, the Gaza strip. If the Israelis had just been left alone all those lands would have been in Muslim hands. Now of course the Muslims say no peace can exist with Israel unless all the lands are given back. The fact is there was no peace with Israel when the lands were in Muslim hands. And when all the lands are given back there still will be no peace. The Muslims want to perpetrate a holocaust against the Jews in the middle east. There is no counter argument to that. The Muslims deny a holocaust occurred in Germany and have lying said that the Israelis are perpetrating a holocaust against the Palestinians when all Muslims have at one time or another have tried to destroy Israel.

May Israel break the lies and succeed!

daniel12 Author Profile Page:

To all people posting here concerning the problems people are having posting. Please do not get paranoid. I used to have the same problem but then discovered (with much help from others--in other words I discovered them and they explained to me) that if you break up your post into parts and post these parts separate it will go through. In other words the censor here kicks in if a post passes a certain length. To get the approximate length which will pass the censor (and I should say by censor I mean the pages which say "post will be reviewed by blog owner" or "too many comments have been posted by you in too short a time") see my posts which were the 186th and 187th post--especially the 186th post. That, again, is the approximate length which will pass the censor. You will also notice that I broke a single post into two parts. Glad to be of help.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed,
Why should one respond to a petulant malingerer like yourself? I collate and post your abuses of policy in order to hang your dirty laundry for the moderator and for others routinely insulted by you, and to encourage you to drop your strategy of vilifying others in order to make your points carry their own weight.

In the end, your "points" support nothing more than a policy that justifies the murder and wholesale dispossession by means of state violence of a beleaguered, largely unarmed minority, in the name of constructing a an exclusionary racial state. How could such a position warrant a counter-argument? Grow up.

daniel12 Author Profile Page:

To Vic van Meter who just posted from Daniel--I love you. Your post is exactly why I keep persisting on the internet despite all the too common stupidity. That was a brilliant post you made. I have certainly never heard it before. I think it must be original to you. Hats off to you!

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

I've had a comment blocked too. Let's see if this gets through. Here is an interesting quote from the Israeli historian Ephraim Karsh, that sheds light on one of the alleged Ben Gurion quotes:

Benny Morris, the Israeli "new historian," probably doesn't know it, but it was his book on "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" (1987) that led me more than a decade ago to temporarily shelve my research into the history of Islam and the Middle East and join the debate on the origin of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

This happened when, purely by accident, I noticed a glaring contradiction between the English and Hebrew renditions of an October 1937 letter from David Ben-Gurion to his son. The English version had Ben-Gurion say: "We must expel Arabs and take their places"; the Hebrew edition represented him as saying precisely the opposite. An examination of the original document unequivocally settled the matter. It read: "We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their place. All our aspiration is built on the assumption — proven throughout all our activity — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs."
http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/5049

VicVanMeter Author Profile Page:

Maybe later I'll have time for full blown commentary, but I'd like to at least interject a bit of an aside. Considering that the patch of dirt Israel and Palestine occupies is fairly important to three of the world's major religions, it seems that the nation(s) sit on a gold mine and spend their time shooting themselves in the foot. If you want to bring waves of valuable tourist dollars to the area, you would hardly want to choke any of those three religions. It simply seems, on all fronts, completely against the interests of any in the nation, regardless of religion or race, to try and force the other faction out.

It seems fairly obvious that the Jewish people living in Israel had better get used to their Islamic minority. It might do them a world of good across their borders to treat their natives generously. Likewise, the events leading up to the Jewish settlement in Palestine and the Zionist movement happened before a healthy chunk of us were born. It is probably time to stop proclaiming the expulsion of the Jewish people. I'd say a sizeable percentage live there.

If they were smart, they'd stop fighting and wring every single dollar of currency they could out of their respective donors and pool the resources. Long after oil has been abandoned as a dominant fuel source, I do believe they could still sell God and make quite a profit.

StephenD11 Author Profile Page:

Why does everyone assume that a two-state solution is the only answer for peace? A two-state solution is premised on the same cancerous ideology that motivates this and every other bloody conflict around the world - ethnic nationalism. A two-state "solution" - to the extent it is even conceivable, given Israeli settlements within the West Bank - would be untenable and unjust.

Make the Jews and Arabs share one state - a secular democracy - and leave it at that. Apartheid regimes and ethnic cleansing ("expulsion?") are NOT ACCEPTABLE in the 21st century.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Matthew16 :
Friends,
Are some comments being blocked? More than one user seems to have hit the same snag - a submission requires "approv(al) by the owner of the blog", but this approval is not forthcoming. My comments were, I thought, relevant to this discussion, but have yet to appear over the past 24 hours. I haven't received anthing from the blog owner that my submission was inappropriate. I reviewed the "User Discussion and Submission Guidelines" - if my submission was in violation it was not obviously so.

Does anyone have similar experiences? Why are some submissions marked for owner approval, while others are not?
______________________________________________-

I've had the same problem. I e-mailed postglobal@wpost.com to complain and they replied that some messages are getting caught in their spam filter but that they have now published them.
I'm still having occasional problems.
Good luck.

Matthew16 Author Profile Page:

Friends,
Are some comments being blocked? More than one user seems to have hit the same snag - a submission requires "approv(al) by the owner of the blog", but this approval is not forthcoming. My comments were, I thought, relevant to this discussion, but have yet to appear over the past 24 hours. I haven't received anthing from the blog owner that my submission was inappropriate. I reviewed the "User Discussion and Submission Guidelines" - if my submission was in violation it was not obviously so.

Does anyone have similar experiences? Why are some submissions marked for owner approval, while others are not?

sydellr Author Profile Page:

I signed in yesterday but I was not posted.
Compared to many of the comments made about Israel, many of them inaccurate and some actually racist I am wondering why I was not posted.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:


AMviennaVA :
optimist3 @February 16, 2009 10:35 PM (and Nadinesc): A little discussed fact is that Hammas acceepted the Meccah declaration in 2002 that calls for recognition of Israel and repatriation of the refugees (or exchange of land for the right). Only two parties affected by the conflict did not accept it: Israel and the US, whose position essentially is that the Palestinians (all of them) must surrender unconditionally. But Hammas is already on record as willing to recognize Israel, providing Israel earns the recognition.

_____________________________________________-

LOL.
You'll really have to link to this so-called Mecca Declaration. I tried to find it and all I see are a couple of internal Arab declarations of principles, but certainly nothing to which anyone, other than the signatories, had to agree. Not the US, not Israel, and Hamas is nowhere mentioned.
Are you trying to lie to us about something?
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

optimist3 :
ThoughtfulTed:
"Like the rest of your ilk, you conflate...As for your ridiculous idea about "ethnic homelands," I might point out...according to your lights...Sorry, but your galloping stupidity is on full display here,
LOL"

Prior to leaving for dinner I believe I read the first and only analysis presented by Ted which did not include flagrant abuse of the Post's policy against personal attacks.

Apparently I was mistaken.

More evidence of the peculiar character of the "democratic nature of Israeli's." The world will not weep when the comeuppance arrives to haunt.
________________________________________________

Excuse me. I didn't see any replies to my factual statements, except to the one about your being stupid, of course. You've just answered that one quite clearly.
LOL
It won't work. You can fool the other stupes, but no one with half a brain could possibly take you seriously.
Or perhaps you're not stupid, maybe you're just a liar?
Which is it?
LOL

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

rick22407 :
The following link gives an interesting narrative of events leading up to the formation of the State of Israel.

http://www.mideastweb.org/us_supportforstate.htm

The horrendous impact that we see today, of the disastrous decision by President Truman to vote for the 1947 UN Partition of Palestine, was entirely foreseeable and was predicted by the U.S. Department of State officials of that day.

“Truman wrote in his memoirs, ‘The question of Palestine as a Jewish homeland goes back to the solemn promise that had been made to them [the Jews] by the British in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 - a promise which had stirred the hopes and the dreams of these oppressed people. This promise, I felt, should be kept, just as all promises made by responsible, civilized governments should be kept.’”

So after 60 years of war, the loss of countless lives and national wealth, we see that it is all about President Truman’s wish to make good on an ill advised promise made by the 1917 British government. Wonderful!

“The Balfour Declaration of 1917 is an official letter from the British Foreign Office headed by Arthur Balfour, the UK's Foreign Secretary (from December 1916 to October 1919), to Lord Rothschild, who was seen as a representative of the Jewish people. The letter stated that the British government "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".”

Apparently President Truman neglected to read the part that said “…it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine…”

Perhaps DoubtfulTed should read this section as well, as it clearly does not “promise” to give any part of Palestine unconditionally to the Jewish people to serve as their own, apartheid, racist state.
________________________________________________

I must admit, that after having to deal with crazies, it's a real pleasure to finally have a real historian to deal with.
LOL

The Arab citizens of Israel have all the rights of any citizens in any western nation and are represented in the Knesset.
The Arab residents of the West Bank and Gaza have full freedom to participate in the rights and electoral politics of the Palestinian Authority. When and if they should ever decide that Israel is here to stay, they may form their own country and then do whatever the hell they want.

You are an opinionated know-nothing masquerading as a scholar or something. I can't figure out what exactly.
LOL

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Daniel12:
"First of all the land is Jewish land which was taken from the Jews many years ago--and forced what we call the Jewish diaspora."

Watch out, here come the G-d as cosmic real estate agent crowd.

Specifically when was the Kingdom of David in "Israel." What of the Kingdom of Judah? Were there any that came before the shepherding rabble of Davidians peering down upon the Canannites--who had a highly developed maritime culture?

Save for some absurd assertion that the Jewish faith was, and is, somehow superior to others--except for superior firepower, nuclear arms, murderous aggression, and security guarantees by the dominant American superpower, is there anything else that endows Israel's "right to..." plunder and pillage and murder?

What happens when the tides reverse--while the memory of Israel's mendacious con remains fresh among her nuclear-empowered neighbors? That is where the "existence" of Israel falls prey to a psychotic armageddon end-of-times-cult.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

The following link gives an interesting narrative of events leading up to the formation of the State of Israel.

http://www.mideastweb.org/us_supportforstate.htm

The horrendous impact that we see today, of the disastrous decision by President Truman to vote for the 1947 UN Partition of Palestine, was entirely foreseeable and was predicted by the U.S. Department of State officials of that day.

“Truman wrote in his memoirs, ‘The question of Palestine as a Jewish homeland goes back to the solemn promise that had been made to them [the Jews] by the British in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 - a promise which had stirred the hopes and the dreams of these oppressed people. This promise, I felt, should be kept, just as all promises made by responsible, civilized governments should be kept.’”

So after 60 years of war, the loss of countless lives and national wealth, we see that it is all about President Truman’s wish to make good on an ill advised promise made by the 1917 British government. Wonderful!

“The Balfour Declaration of 1917 is an official letter from the British Foreign Office headed by Arthur Balfour, the UK's Foreign Secretary (from December 1916 to October 1919), to Lord Rothschild, who was seen as a representative of the Jewish people. The letter stated that the British government "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".”

Apparently President Truman neglected to read the part that said “…it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine…”

Perhaps DoubtfulTed should read this section as well, as it clearly does not “promise” to give any part of Palestine unconditionally to the Jewish people to serve as their own, apartheid, racist state.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Amviennava:
"Only two parties affected by the conflict did not accept it: Israel and the US, whose position essentially is that the Palestinians (all of them) must surrender unconditionally."

Of course we must not forget the loyal island nations of Tuvalu, Palau, and Micronesia--so often supporting the position of Israel/U.S. against the 160 members in opposition. Such describes the dynamics of the "international community."

Incidentally, the demands made upon Palestinians by Israel are not that they surrender, but that they submit, while acknowledging the "right of Israel" to have perpetrated the greatest plunder and ongoing crime against humanity in the history of the modern world.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

rick22407 @February 17, 2009 2:26 PM: Great minds think alike ;^)

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed:
"Like the rest of your ilk, you conflate...As for your ridiculous idea about "ethnic homelands," I might point out...according to your lights...Sorry, but your galloping stupidity is on full display here,
LOL"

Prior to leaving for dinner I believe I read the first and only analysis presented by Ted which did not include flagrant abuse of the Post's policy against personal attacks.

Apparently I was mistaken.

More evidence of the peculiar character of the "democratic nature of Israeli's." The world will not weep when the comeuppance arrives to haunt.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

bigbrother1 @February 17, 2009 10:35 AM: I am actually on for a short time, and try to respond to those who address me. By the way, I truly doubt that AIPAC would want to compensate me! Perhaps you did not read what I actually posted.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

optimist3 @February 16, 2009 10:35 PM (and Nadinesc): A little discussed fact is that Hammas acceepted the Meccah declaration in 2002 that calls for recognition of Israel and repatriation of the refugees (or exchange of land for the right). Only two parties affected by the conflict did not accept it: Israel and the US, whose position essentially is that the Palestinians (all of them) must surrender unconditionally. But Hammas is already on record as willing to recognize Israel, providing Israel earns the recognition.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

NadineSC @February 16, 2009 10:03 PM: The Palestinians are not the only ones who have not returned to their homes. For example, there are hundreds of thoudands in Cyprus; there more than 1 million Serbs from Kosovo and Croatia. The main difference is that the Palestinians do not have a state of their own. It is a fundamental difference.

British actions are traditionally duplicitous: in the case of Palestine, they magnanimously gave away what was not theirs, and then 'tried to negotiate an exchange of populations'(!). Perhaps they should have asked the native population before they gave away the land, in the first place. Let's see, what do you suppose will be my reaction if some foreigner tells me that I must either become a refugee or live under some other foreigner's laws (who by the way wants to create a state for people different than me!). For that matter what would be your reaction?

That choice is at the heart of the problem: it was no choice, and really presented the Palestinians with only one option. We are enjoying its fruits.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed @February 16, 2009 9:49 PM: An 'idiot'?!? A most pursuasive argument indeed! It so happens that my observation is that people resort to such labels becuase they cannot refute the other party. So, I shall ignore your post and await for a refutation, based on reason, rationally presented. In the meantime, you do need to practice sarcasm, but with others first.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

NadineSC @February 16, 2009 9:29 PM : We are not all online at the same time. Hopefully you will see the response.

It is irrelevant what Churchill did or said. Why, during WW2 he was offering Greek Islands to Turkey if Turkey would join in the war. So what. An imperialist's actions are irrelevant, except for the long-term misery they cause; which is why imperialism has been a stain on the human condition.

As for 'historical facts', they are interesting! Neither Italy nor Germany were countries till the late 1800's; but I very strongly believe that there were Italians and Germans before the states came into being. As a matter of fact I can point to many maps from the 1700's where there is no US. I can also point to maps from the 1800's where Texas and California are Mexican territory. What matters is the people populating the land, whatever the land is called or who is the ruler du jour.

Lastly, as even Ben Gurion has stated (many explicit quotes from him in this blog!), the Palestinians, of all religions, fled because of terrorism. Instead of taking my word for it, you may want to review the classification by the British of such statesmen as Begin: terrorist.

Today's Palestinian movement is a classic national independence struggle. History is made of them. A sad fact is that the only way to evict an occupier is to make him fear for his life and that of his children. The worse aspect of the current Near East situation is that there are two groups that by now have a legitimate claim to the same land. But this does not even now, justify what was done to the Palestinians, nor what is continuing to be done to them. A different solution is needed.

MichaelNJ Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed's remarks about the Arab propaganda defamation campaign against Ben-Gurion through deliberately false attributions is right on the mark. It is bad enough when it is done by anonymous posters on the internet. But It is inexcusable for a serious journalist such as Fareed Zakaria to provide the stage of a reputable publication like the Washington Post to someone like Syrian "journalist" Sammi Moubayed, who recycles those lies as a matter of routine. Shame on Zakaria.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

dj333 :
THOUGHTFULTED,

Your numbers don't contradict dave57's point, they make it: if the non-Jewish population was 1.35 million at the start of 1948, and - as Zakaria quotes - roughly 160,000 at the end, that suggests serious ethnic cleansing. Eight ninths of a population don't just get up and leave on principle. Those people should have just as much of a "right" of return as do those who may or may not be able to trace their families back to when the Romans did it to them.

The bottom line is that ethnic "homelands" are a dangerous 19th century anachronism and have no place in the 21st century. The ideal of ethnic nationalism caused all the major - and most of the minor - wars of the 20th century, and it's time it was put down. The US has always stood as the model for the opposite idea - something the last election reaffirmed - and we would be better off if our foreign policy reflected our ideals rather than our fears.
_________________________________________________

They are not "my numbers."
Like the rest of your ilk, you conflate the figures for the population of Palestine as a whole, rather than limiting it to the area which was set aside by the UN to be the Jewish state, as was clearly stated in the report. Again, the 1.3 million figure includes not only what is now Israel, but the West Bank and Gaza as well.
It is also clear, from the report, that even the majority of the Arab population arrived in Palestine at roughly the same time as the Jews.
Whatever displacement of Arabs took place, was as a result of a war which they began, and all of it was in the area that the Palestinians should have declared as a state instead of starting a war.
As for your ridiculous idea about "ethnic homelands," I might point out that, according to your lights, Italy, Greece, Ireland, England, France Switzerland, Germany, Austria, etc., etc., etc. are merely 19th century anachronisms and should probably be abolished.
Sorry, but your galloping stupidity is on full display here,
LOL

daniel12 Author Profile Page:

(continuation from previous post)

How lunatic this supposed holocaust the Israelis are supposed to be pursuing! You mean the 7 million or so Israelis are perpetrating a holocaust when they are surrounded by incalculably many more Muslims than there are of Jews? What a dirty lie! The holocaust the Jews suffered was a true holocaust. The Jews were vastly outnumbered in Germany in world war 2 and were virtually powerless to resist the holocaust.

On the other hand, today the Muslims vastly outnumber the Israelis and those crybaby Muslims have succeeded in making it seem as if the relatively few Jews in the middle east are perpetrating a holocaust. And what cowardice by fellow Jews and even Europeans and Americans in general not to recognize the obvious distinction!

My only consolation is that the Jews will do all they can to prevent themselves from being annihilated--because they know if they are annihilated the rest of the world will just say they deserved it, that they themselves were perpetrating a holocaust in the middle east. Hell, the middle east says no holocaust occurred in Germany in the first place. How can the Jews consequently do anything other than conflict with the Muslims?

But the Muslims should know that the Israelis are prepared to die to a man than leave their rightful homeland again.

daniel12 Author Profile Page:

On Israel. How false it is for Muslims to say that the crime of the Jews setting up a state in the middle east is the dispossession of Palestinian land! First of all the land is Jewish land which was taken from the Jews many years ago--and forced what we call the Jewish diaspora.

Second of all, the true crime of Israel is existing in the first place--which is to say Mohammed never saw the return of the Jews in his prophecies and the Muslims despise Israel for being the return of the Jews on what they, the Muslims, see as Muslim land.

It has never been just the Palestinians striking out at Israel. Take the war of '67. Several Muslim nations then attacked Israel--and you never heard the Muslims complaining as long as it looked that they would defeat Israel with their greater numbers--and the Muslims did vastly outnumber the Israelis.

But the Muslims lost--and now they cry all day and night about the return of the Gaza strip, the Golan heights, etc. Why not state the obvious? It has always been the Muslims who were the aggressors. The Jews have created a flourishing state in the middle east and would like nothing better than to continually improve their economy. The Muslims on the other hand, especially the Palestinians, would prefer constantly spending money on weapons and attacking the Israelis. Hell, just look at the Muslim economies in general. All dysfunctional except those lucky enough to be based on oil.

And what a dirty lie it is to compare the Israelis to Nazis. It has been the Muslims who have been denying the holocaust occurred in Germany more than anybody else and it has been the Muslims who have been trying to either exterminate the Israelis through violence or outbreed them and overwhelm them through sheer demographics.

And what a sickening thing it is to say the rest of the world only hears the Israeli side of things and that the Palestinian's voices have been silenced. The truth is the Muslims in general have succeeded in garnering pity out of all proportion, turning reality upside down and having it seem as if the Israelis are perpetrating a holocaust on the Muslims.

(continued on next post).

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

West Bank Land Seized As Israel Looks to Build

By Karin Laub in today’s WP

EFRAT, West Bank, Feb. 16 -- Plans to expand a West Bank settlement by up to 2,500 homes drew Palestinian condemnation Monday and presented an early test for President Obama, whose Middle East envoy is well known for opposing such construction…

Settlement expansion would be likely to create friction with Obama's Mideast envoy, George J. Mitchell, who has long pushed for a freeze on the expansion of Jewish settlements…

Yesh Din, an Israeli human rights group involved in the Efrat expansion case, said Monday that over the years Israel's government has assigned almost all areas designated as state land to settlements. The group said that is a violation of international law, which requires an occupying power to act for the benefit of the local population.

This shows how Obama is struggling to muster enough backbone to just insist on a settlement freeze, let on a return to pre-1967 borders.

jamesmmoylan Author Profile Page:

yishai_613 said:

"Israeli" Arabs are siding with Israel's enemies- often openly.
We will treat them accordingly.
___________________________
You sir sound like a Nazi. What do you mean by using the word 'accordingly'? Fire up the ovens?
Apparently your fellow Israeli citizens of Arab descent are simply not allowed to have an opinion that differs from yours.
This is a fascistic view that horrifies me.

winfamly said:

As usual, most bloggers display gross ignorance and insane Jew hatred. It is risible to describe Zakaria's rant as an analysis. Lieberman's demand for loyalty applies to ultra-Orthodox Jews as well. The Israeli Arabs (and the Haredim) are disloyal parasites and have well earned the call for their disenfranchisement.
___________________________
So you have the right and authority to delimit and dictate what is 'correct' thinking in Israel?

I hope you swallow your own tongue for the good of mankind - arguing against religious bigotry with a religious bigot is like p***ing in the wind.


NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Nanabrown, there have always been a few Jews who responded to the hatred of the outside world by abasing themselves and joining the haters in abusing their fellow Jews, especially fellow Jews who want to stick up for themselves. Avram Burg is but the latest in that sad list, and you'll see that not even the left-wingers at Haaretz have much use for him.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Daho,

You will find that, whatever sympathies are professed by the leaders of Israeli Arabs, anytime a concrete proposal appears to move the proposed border to include an Israeli Arab town in the future Palestine, they don't welcome the idea. In fact, they fight it tooth and nail.

So the "sympathies" are just window dressing and don't extend to action. Israeli Arabs know that however imperfect Israel is for them, it's still worlds better than the 3rd world thug-ocracy offered by the PA.

Actually, when you consider that Israeli Arabs are 20% of the population, there have been few acts of violence committed by them during either intifada. Mostly they have kept their heads down.

nanabrown63 Author Profile Page:

Read what some Jews say about Israel :

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/868385.html

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Nanarown,

Why should Israelis be afraid of having a truly democratic country with a varied population like it is the case in most countries of the world?

What? Most of countries of the world are "varied" without a predominant ethnic group, language and religion? Are you nuts? You don't think China is predominantly Chinese, Russia Russian, Germany German? WTF?! And hey, lets not even get into countries which enforce ethnic and religious purity like Our Friends the Saudis.

The vast majority of countries on earth are built around a dominant ethnic group, whose language, religion and customs sets the norms for that country. The US is the exception, but even here, the Protestant ethic, English, and a law code descended from English common law define our norms.

But once again, only for Israel does having a dominant ethnic group mean they have to be racist. Yeah, that's it! They have to believe they are superior! Bad Jews! Never mind how many minorities they have or how they treat them, Zionism must be racism! When the Ukranians or the Czechs declared their independence, was that proof of their racism? Of course not, it only applies to Jews.

I wish Fareed Zakaria would listen to whom he is encouraging.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

BigBrother1 :

“Amviennava,

Does AIPAC pay you well to comment on blogs all day?”

Come clean now Big Bro… You are not upset with the frequency of AM’s posts, who posts half as frequently as the Israeli apologists NadineSC and ThoughtfulTed. You are just upset that AM makes fools of these good people with wit, intelligence, style and grace. That would not be in the best interest of your good self and AIPAC

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Chaotician :

We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford
University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the
cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab
population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion,
A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know
the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because
geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab
villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz
Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar
Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place
built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann,
Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the
aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they
inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which
appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by
transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of
Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the
numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a
slightly different translation).
________________________________________________

I once did a study on all of the phony Ben-Gurion quotes cited by the anti-Israel bunch to prove that the Jews were always intent on ethnic cleansing.
They are all either outright lies, or distortions created by elisions and other suspect textual manipulations.
The most common distortion in these quotes comes from reporting statements in Ben-Gurion's diaries which were actually made by others, as having been his. Often, these quotes are followed by his own take on them, usually to dispute them. These statements are never included.
I wonder if you have ever taken the time to find out if any of these quotes is accurate, or do you just parrot them from anti-Israel propaganda sites? I'm certain that you have read none of the books you cite.
For now, I'll just deal with the third quote, about the missing Arab towns. This statement was actually made by Moshe Dayan in a speech at Bar-Ilan University, many years after Ben-Gurion's death. In any case, the last part of the quotation, in which he regrets the fact that these towns are empty because the Arabs who lived in them ran away in spite of Israeli pleas for them to remain is never, ever quoted.
Wonder why?
The quality of scholarship in many of these works is regrettably low, most of them are nothing but propaganda screeds anyway.
David Ben-Gurion was one of the greatest Jewish defenders of Arab rights, and these misquotes are a slander on his memory, aside from being historical rubbish.

yonahred Author Profile Page:

mister zakaria- to mention azmi bishara and to neglect to mention that he is now a fugitive from justice, refusing to return to israel, afraid to face charges, accused not merely of expressing support for hezbollah, but of supplying them with information during the 2006 lebanon war, is just plain shoddy journalism.

Daho Author Profile Page:

Fareed Zakaria's comments reflect an unfortunate reality. The majority of the Palestinian Arabs in Israel have definitely decided that their duty and fidelity are with Israel's foes.
M. Bishara’s declaration – ex Israel MP – justifies the fear for the future of Israel with a minority that increases exponentially. He does not mention the plight of non-moslem minorities in Moslem countries, and how Hamas has treated its own Fatah ‘brethren’, and forgets that there has never been a Palestinian country – Palestine was a province of the Ottoman empire.
He does not point out that during the 20 years in which the West Bank and Gaza were respectively under the control of Jordan and Egypt, the latter countries never tried to create a Palestinian State, and use the billions of dollars received from the UN and other countries to improve the plight of the ‘refugees’ – they are still ‘refugees’ after 60 years.
Israel is a speck on the map, in which the surrounding Arab countries represent enormous space. Israel absorbed hundred of thousands Jews who were expelled or forced to leave the Arab countries in which they lived, while these latter countries were not able to take care of the hundred of thousands ‘refugees’ since 1948.
At Clinton’s invitation of Yasser Arafat and Ehud Barak – Israel then PM – the Palestinian were offered East Jerusalem and 92% of the West Bank plus Gaza. The 8% would be exchanged with Israeli land, thus permitting the creation of a Palestinian State. Yasser Arafat rejected the offer and started the first intifada, although at the signature of the Oslo accords, he had solemnly promised that from there on there would be no more violence, but talks.
The only solution would be that the hatred of Israel and Jews, as taught in Arab schools stops, and that finally a just solution be found to have peace and a Palestinian State in the region. As long as there will be Palestinian factions – Hamas – which declares that it will never recognize Israel and that their intention is to eliminate it, whilst the Palestinian Authority – M. Abbas – accept its existence, how can any peace treaty be achieved?

vikram3 Author Profile Page:

Where are the Jews and other minorities in 57 intolerant Islamic nations? Do they have the same rights?

whistling Author Profile Page:


Good, finally I am not alone in fury and loathing of the

phony lying "history" that stinks up so many posts, including this one, that seeks to explain Israel's vaious vicious actions.

And detestation of such sentences, as above, about "so called Palestinians".

And they wonder why anti-semitism grows exponentially all over the world, and in America.
ANd make no mistake, it is growing dangerously.

bigbrother1 Author Profile Page:

Amviennava,

Does AIPAC pay you well to comment on blogs all day?

hariknaidu Author Profile Page:

Facts are difficult for both current Jewish settlers - black and white - and native Palestinians.

The fact of the matter, for those who have friends in both Israel and Palestine, is the emergence of *racism* in modern Israel with its perpetual immigration from all over the world.

Recall during the Roman Empire, when Constantine became Catholic and Rome became citadel of Catholicism, the Crusades were organized from churches all over Europe with a view to eradication of Arab Plestinians and reclaiming their Christian heritage in holy place.

Centuries of crusades were supported by Christian churches in Europe - to free their Holy Jerusalem.
However what is missing in the arguments (so far) is that during the Roman Army attacks - before Emperor Constantine - Jews were the target of Roman Army! It was the Palestinians, at the time, who protected them in their Arb homes....

That's why we call them both children of Abraham!
************************************************

Once the European Azkanazi's became a minority in State of Israel, domestic politics dramatically
changed and adopted discriminatory policies against Arab Palestinian citizens. That's the fact of the current social demography....

WP says, in a recent article, current US Senate is represented by some 15% Jews - whereas some 2% of the population is Jewish! What's going on in US politics vis-a-vis Israel?

The Cabal which took down the WS will eventually take down the US hegemon or what?

vinceporter Author Profile Page:

Nothing surprises me about Israeli politics, or to the extent that Israel will go to "protect" itself. This is, after all, a state founded upon the ramblings of a 3000-year old desert tribe, given a "promised land" by their imaginary friend somewhere up in the heavens. If you can subscribe to this nonsense as your founding statement, then any ludicrously irrational policy becomes possible in its defense. Which is exactly what is happening!

asizk Author Profile Page:

1)) Did the French resistance recognize the nazi occupation of France as legitimate? NO.NO.NO.

Did the American Revolution recognize British colonial occupation of America? NO.BO.NO.

Why then should the Palestinians and Hamas specfically recognise an alien racist apartheid ethno-religious jewish colonial settler state and its occupation of their homeland Palestine??

In fact the nazis compare favorably to the occupying jews: at least the naizs did not ethnically cleanse the indigenous population of the occupied European states,France for example-which is an improvement on the jewish occupation of all of Arab Historic Palestine.

2)) I suggest that history be left for historians:some of the comments show utter ignorance such as for example,who were the Canaanites? And then confusing the "Philstines" with the former.

The Canaanites are authentic semite Arabs-they are but one of many semitic waves that came out of the Arabian Peninsula,one after the other:Assyrians,Sumerians,Babilonians,Phonesians,Aramaens and the Arabs who were the latest wave in the 7th century AD.Jesus spoke the tongue of the Arameans-syriac.

The first written Arabic script was Aramic from the third century AD.

The Canaanites settled Palestine five thosuand years ago and they never left it since and they as well as the present day Arabs are the very ancestors of present day Palestinians.

The jews doctored their scripture to the extent that they corrupted the linage of the Canaanites by claiming they were not semites-because at one point time they jews invaded Canaanite Palestine and were at war with Canaanites.

Canaanites = Arabs

Palestine took its name from a Greek people came from Crete and also lived in Palestine even prior to the Canaanites but melted away because their presence in Palestine was marginal and short lived the same as the jews-who came to Palestine as invaders as they are now.

Since,Palestine started giving its name to all those who live in it.

No race or culture ever prevailed permenantly and regardless of the alien invaders throuhgout history in the Fertile Crescent (Greater Syria and Mesopotamia) than the Arabs. Thet were every where when the new wave of Muslim Arabs reconquered and liberated this reigon including PAlestine from the alien Byzantines and Persians in the 7th century AD.

The Byzantine governor of Damascus when the Musim Arabs liberated it was an Arab.

"israel" is a colinail settler "state " as France was in Alegeria,whites in south Africa and Rodisia. It was impalnted by Britain with the support of other colonail powers such as France after ww11 and later by non-colonial America-for the the purpose of setting a western bridgehead into the Arab East for its own ends such as Suez Canal and oil-which never needed its protection.

Also the west supported "israel" to rid themselves of the jews-which did not work.

jews justified, without success, this historical blunder by recycling religious biblical myths to appeal to fundamnetalist christians and get their support.

"israel" is a passing artificial phenomenon and will come to pass;there is absolutely no room for it in the heart of the Arab East nor will ever be accpted.

I know not of one example in history where a people who were occupied and ethnically cleansed accpeted, recognised and gave legitimacy to its occupiers.

The Palaestinian Arabs will never recognise their occupiers;they are patient and will out live and defat the occupiers.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

"But for Jews to be a long-surviving ethnic group is proof that Israel is racist and apartheid. Bad Jews!"

People judge Israel for its' actions, past and present, not for fabrications of ethnic, racial, and genetic identities.

Rather than taking into account its' own actions, and seeking compromise solutions, Israel justifies its' refusal to lift its' medieval siege, house demolitions, torture, kidnapping, assassinations, systematic land expropriations--against the very international laws Israel selectively misuses to anchor its' state, starvation, degradation, and humiliation of the Arabs of Palestine by blaming the victim of its' abhorrent sustained aggression. The means by which Israel does this are well known.

That Israel perpetrated the biggest plunder in modern history is something that has required a rigorous defense. That the dehumanization of Arabs and the dispossession of a culture continues as state policy are what the entire world rejects--save for the U.S., Israel, and its' defenders Palau, Tuvalu, and Micronesia. The means by which Israel brought the "desert to bloom" are becoming more and more clear around the world. Do Israelis have the integrity to reconcile their own wrongdoing? Not if the reactionaries decrying "anti-semitism," "Jew-hating" and "anti-Israel" are any indication.

nanabrown63 Author Profile Page:

Racism is defined in answers.com as :
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
Isn’t Zionism built on the belief of the superiority of the Jews and the need to protect themselves as a race? Why should Israelis be afraid of having a truly democratic country with a varied population like it is the case in most countries of the world? Why do they care so much about the purity of their race? Isn’t it racism? Can we still accept such beliefs in the 21st century? Haven’t we gone beyond narrow thinking and acclaim globalization? Zionism has to stop and Israel has to stop its repulsive “apartheid” thinking and behavior which will lead nowhere but to further animosity and violence. Bigotry, racism and brutality will destroy the whole region , and certainly won’t protect Israel as a nation of “pure” Jews.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

When any other ethnic group preserves their culture over a long period of time, it's wonderful, we must admire them, be they Tibetans or Japanese or whomever. But for Jews to be a long-surviving ethnic group is proof that Israel is racist and apartheid. Bad Jews!

On the other hand, if Jews are a religion, then Israle must be a theocracy. Look, they have a state religion, like most countries on earth do. Proof enough! Again, bad Jews!

Anybody notice a pattern here?

Nobody else gets called racist or apartheid, even those who richly deserve the name, like Our Friends the Saudis. Oh, that would be judgmental. Mustn't annoy the Muslims, they do get so riled up.

So let's just bash the Jews. The second Durbin conference will condemn Zionism (and only Zionism) as racism, as did the first conference.

Best we can hope for is that they sell The Protocols and Mein Kampf only outside the conference, not inside. And this is the conference Obama intends to send a US delegation to.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

The State Department will send diplomats next week to participate in preparatory meetings for the World Conference Against Racism, which is set to be held in Geneva, Switzerland in April and which Israel has already decided to boycott. The U.S. will decide later whether to actually participate in "Durban 2," the second UN-sponsored World Conference Against Racism.

Officials in Jerusalem have expressed concern that Israel and Barack Obama's administration are on a collision course over the U.S. decision to participate in the conference. The Israeli Foreign Ministry has sought to block efforts by senior U.S. officials to convince Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to alter American policy set during the Bush administration not to attend the conference.

Israel is boycotting the conference because a declaration equating Zionism with racism is expected to be made there. In addition, it is expected that the organizers and participants will charge that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians.

The Israeli Foreign Ministry has also tried in recent months to convince European Union countries to avoid participating.

One of the leading officials pressuring Clinton on "Durban 2" is the new U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, who was Obama's close campaign adviser. Rice is also pushing for the U.S. to join the UN Human Rights Council, which is based in Geneva.

What can one say? Israel is an apartheid and racist state. As Nadine admits, “The Jews are descended almost entirely from Jews; they are a tightly related group, as genetic tests are now proving”.

shilotoren Author Profile Page:

Newageblues:

A bit testy, aren't you? You wouldn't want to detract those natty statements?

Disappointed that people stand up to your lies, you go away and pout. Your choice.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Owldog, Technically, blacks could vote during Jim Crow, but they couldn't vote in reality, so they didn't elect anybody. Azmi Bisha and others actually did get elected to the Knesset and served there for a long time, so comparing this to Jim Crow is specious. Hadash and one or two other Arab parties routinely are on the ballot in Israel and have been a swing factor in more than one government.

Optimist, you seem to forget that when the crossing into Gaza were last open, Hamas send suicide bombers through them until they were closed again. Or maybe you don't forget. Maybe you just agree with Hamas that Jews deserve to die. Hamas doesn't want peace. They want Israel completely destroyed and the Jews annihilated, and to give them due credit, they are honest about it. Is that what you want?

Abhab, There haven't been any identifiable Philistines in Palestine since the 8th cen. BC. Don't be ridiculous. The Palestinians are obviously descendants of the Levantine Arabs of the last few centuries, who are descendants of everybody who used to live in the Levant - Arabs, Egyptians, Turks, Circassians, Crusaders, Greeks, Jews, etc. Everybody came through Palestine at one point or another.

The Jews are descended almost entirely from Jews; they are a tightly related group, as genetic tests are now proving. Most Israelis are descended from Jews of the Arab lands, btw, whose ancestors never were in Europe. But the genetic tests show that the Jews of Europe are more closely related to the Jews of the Arab lands than to Europeans. They are more closely related to Kurds and Arabs than Europeans too.

Sirajul, the Russians have been in Israel for 15 years now and their presence didn't fuel anti-Arab sentiment; it was the failure of the peace process and seeing how concessions were met not with compromise, but with terror, with Bisha's sedition as icing on the cake. If you want to know which Israelis are and have always been most anti-Arab, it is the Mizrahim, the Jews from Arab lands. They know how Arabs think, they say, and never were duped by Arafat like Shimon Peres and the others who pushed the Oslo snake oil.

sirajul_islam_1 Author Profile Page:

David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, did not see Israel as part of the Middle East, but as part of Europe. From 1952, Ben-Gurion repeated that although Israelis were sitting in the Middle East, this was a geographical accident, for they were a European people. After Menachem Begin’s electoral victory in 1977, one of the hard-headed Israeli politicians of the right, deep-rooted the vision in Israel of the Russian Revisionist Zionist leader, Vladimir Jabotinsky who believed that there could never be agreement with the Arabs. Avigdor Lieberman’s rise is understandable as the leader of Russian immigrants in Israel, the single biggest European Israelis, who would certainly try to drive out the Arabs from Israel, or dismember them from the State of Israel that the editor of Newsweek Int’l hinted. Thank Mr. Zakaria for the story, and some comments are really informative as well as suggestive.

owldog Author Profile Page:

NadineSC :

This is not true at all. Could you please explain to me how Azmi Bisha ever got elected to the Knesset, if Muslims can't vote? Israeli Arabs and religious minorities are citizens and they vote.

-------------------
More PR Bull. Technically, African Americans could vote during Jim Crow era, but that didn't help them much, did it.

abhab Author Profile Page:

The truth about the Palestinians.
The so-called "Palestinian Arabs" are the descendents of the ancient Philistines and Canaanites. They became Arabised in the sense that they adopted the Arabic language and most the Arab religion after their lands were conquered by the Muslim Arabs of Arabia in the 7th Century. Few Arabs were stationed in that province as most of the invaders preferred living outside Palestine. The caliph who carried most of the empire building, Omar bin el Khattab, retired to Mecca soon after invading this region. The Canaanites and Philistines , who are the ancestors of the present day Palestinians, were living in that region long before the Israelite tribes wandered in there, during their stay there, and after they wandered back out. Furthermore most of the present day Israelis are Europeans who adopted the Jewish religion and are not racially related to the ancient Israelites who are in turn much more closely related to the present day Palestinians.
The Israelis know this fact very well but do not publicize it because it does not serve their agenda. Jerusalem was a Jebusites Canaanites town long before Abraham visited there and before Jacob and his children passed through there on their way to Egypt.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Nadinesc:
"Hamas could open those borders in 5 minutes, simply by declaring that it would uphold the agreements signed by the PA: which say no shooting & recognize the existence of Israel. Hamas prefers the borders closed."

Israel could open those borders in 5 minutes, simply by living up to its' agreements: ending the medieval siege, deconstructing the bantustans and the theft of 80% of Palestinian water resources and farmland, by ending assassinations, torture, false imprisonment, and state terror, by stopping the ritual sonic booms by F15's, by recognizing the results of the democratic election and by addressing the underlying reasons for resistance: expropriation of land, and, the refusal of Israel to "recognize the right of Palestinians to exist."

But then, that would break the very long history of unilateral agreements organized by Israel--to allow it more time to seize property: forcing conditions upon Palestinians while refusing to harness Israel to any agreements at all.

Missing in the Israeli analysis entirely is that there are people whose land, histories, and lives have been utterly destroyed.

The "crying and shooting," is done by Israel, not the other way around.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

What existed in 1948, as concerns the order of Arabs of Palestine, vs. Palestinian Jews, or, Palestinian Arabs, matters little, I am sure, to those who have been brutalized by Israeli state violence for eighty years. "Palestinian identity," like "Israeli" identity is a tool to assert human rights--and hopefully equality and proportion, and liberty, and necessity and all those good things.

How mendacious is it to continue such distractions, while the medieval siege on foodstuffs, shoes, medicines, power, potable water, and work continues to be inflicted upon the occupied territories by Israel, while Israeli jackboots righteously defend their actions?

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Nadinesc:
"The Arabs expelled their 800,000 Jews, then refused to resettle the 700,000 Palestinian Arabs."

Nadine, you are a deliberate fabricator and shameless propagandist. You know that this is a deliberate distortion. Craven in purpose is a polite way of describing the illusion you labor under.

"Resettle": The creation of the State of Israel depended upon the forcible "displacement" of the Palestinian Arabs. What responsibility does Israel have to those it displaced--shoring itself up by selectively applying "international agreements" rooted in organizations and law, and, denying others: such as the responsibility to occupied populations, and protections against collective punishment?

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Optimist,
In 1948 the very word "Palestinian" referred to the Zionists, since they were the ones who wanted to make a country out of the place. The Arabs of Palestine were called "the Arabs of Palestine". Go back and read sources from 1948 if you doubt this.

The Palestinian national identity began after the Nakba, and didn't begin to crystalize until after the PLO was founded in 1964.

In an irony of history, the Palestinians are pseudo Jews. They too derived their identity from exile, and from their harsh treatment by other groups.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Valleygirl,
It is becoming more and more clear that your understanding of human rights--informed by the history of the Holocaust and the maltreatment of minorities as a whole throughout history--is that of a silent majority of Jews, as much as it is of people as a whole.

Unfortunately, the reflexive defense of state violence--and the response that state terrorism always reaps, is where most apologists for such violence lose themselves. The challenge is mounting a sustained opposition to such violence--on behalf of the disorganized majority who seek to protect human rights.


NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Amviennava,

Nobody said the Arab refugees from Palestine were doing "fine". They are far from fine, thanks largely to all the "help" they get from the UN and their Arab "brothers."

There have been 100 million refugees in the last 100 years. Some got to go home, most resettled elsewhere. Only the Palestinians became perpetual refugees, hostage to the intractable Israeli/Arab conflict. Grist for the mill. Best of all the Arabs got the UN to pay for them. Forever.

Consider this: When Israel was created, the British tried to negotiate an exchange of populations, along the lines of what was happening on a MUCH larger scale in India at the same time. An exchange of Palestinian Arabs for Jews of Arab lands. The Arabs expelled their 800,000 Jews, then refused to resettle the 700,000 Palestinian Arabs. The Arabs got stuck into permanent refugee camps on the UN dole.

Before you begin wailing about the "open air prison" of Gaza, consider that Hamas could open those borders in 5 minutes, simply by declaring that it would uphold the agreements signed by the PA: which say no shooting & recognize the existence of Israel. Hamas prefers the borders closed. They only want them open if they can get it on their terms: no recognition of Israel and international legitimization of their right of "armed resistance" i.e. terrorism.

Now under other circumstances it might be difficult for Hamas to function with the borders closed, because normally you need a functioning economy to feed 1 million people, but no worries - since most of them are "poor Palestinian refugees" Hamas doesn't have to worry about having an economy.

The Palestinians are the world's top priority for humanitarian aid, bar none. They are the top per capita consumers of it. Any money Hamas collects can go for jihad; the UN and the Euros will feed the Gazans. The UN and the Euros fund perpetual war in the name of humanitarian concerns.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Nadinesc:
"It is much less shameful that to have supposedly been brutally expelled by an irresistable Israeli army, than to admit they fled rather weak Jewish forces to wait on the sidelines for a crushing Arab victory that never happened."

Nadine, that is a patent fabrication forged from a selective reading of history. Stop it.

That "Palestinians" assert a national identity is equal to "Israeli's" asserting a national identity. Only, in the case of "Palestinians" their very existence depends upon being identified as a contiguous group in order to keep from being utterly destroyed--"wiped off of the map," and written out of history by Israel.

Tell us, please, how long the Kingdom of David was in existence in "Israel" and where; what relevance asserting an "Israeli" identity has to driving the modern inhabitants from their homes three thousand years afterward--ethnic cleansing--and how rational that is; and, why asserting such a historical claim would be of any relevance at all if the Israeli's were not, and had not been, armed to the teeth in order to proceed with the process of expropriating land based upon racial claims?

What purpose does it serve to destroy a people--to protect one's own? What do you feel about the ongoing occupation? Finally, how does your claim of racial superiority rooted in historical claims to territory reconcile itself with human rights?


valleygirl1501 Author Profile Page:

I am a first generation Jewess whose grandparents emigrated to the U.S. from Russia in the early 1900's and after my mother died when I was a baby my grandparents raised me. One of the important lessons I learned from them was that "We are all God's children" and that I was never to discriminate against anyone because of the color of their skin, religion, and ethnic background. As far as I am concerned that is the best gift they ever gave me. Since it is true that I have never been to Israel maybe I don't have the right to judge the Israeli government but when I think of the fact that for hundreds of years Jews were driven from country to country. When I remember the stories my grandparents told me about their life in Russia and what led them to come to the United States I find it hard to understand how the Israeli's can be abusive of Palestinians? The
Jews came to, what was Palestine, to escape the holocaust and discrimination from other countries so I find it hard to understand how they can treat Palestinians with few rights? I realize that the Palestinians are also to blame for their bombing of Israeli's, many of them who might be in favor of a Palestinian state.
When Israel was a new country I was very much in favor of the state of Israel because it meant that all the victims of the holocaust would have a home but in recent years as the government began to take over towns and drive Palestinians out I began to have doubts. This message will probably anger a great many Jewish people but I was raised to believe that if I did not want someone to be prejudiced against me because I am Jewish then I should do the same for other people.My grandparents not only talked the talk but they lived up to their words.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

AMviennaVA :
ThoughtfulTed @February 16, 2009 9:02 PM: Where do I get my 'mis-infirmation'? Well, for one, there is the 'Balfour Declaration'. It is an interesting concept, especially when you also read accompanying comments when the author wondered whether he started something with unexpected consequences. I do believe that it predated even the UN, by the way. I also believe that, inexplicably, (brace yourself now, I am about to introduce you to a truly astounding concept) events did occur in Palestine before 1948!!!!!

Facts are truly fascinating things, aren't they?

Do enjoy your attempts at sarcasm, please. They are amusing.
________________________________________________

Sarcasm? If I call you an idiot I'm not being sarcastic.
LOL
You do believe the Balfour Declaration predated the UN do you? How informed. Perhaps you could tell us by how much? Perhaps you could also inform us of the existence of an organization called The League of Nations, which certainly pre-dated the UN. So far, you seem to be ignorant of it.
Perhaps you could inform us that the Balfour Declaration guaranteed to the Jews that Britain would provide them with a national homeland in an area of Palestine which was assigned to England as a Mandate to do just that by the aforementioned League of Nations, though, England already owned the area of Palestine having won it from the defeated Ottoman Empire along with the majority of its lands and properties, so any argument that England had no legal right to give away any of the land to the Jews is just incorrect.
What Lord Balfour said later is of no consequence; the British government was liable for what it had undertaken and this was agreed by all the nations of The League.

The Palestine Mandate
The Council of the League of Nations:
July 24, 1922
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory (England) selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, (which they lost during WWI)within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty,(The Balfour Declaration) and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country. . . . .

I take it that this also answers your nonsense about the mandate taking away the rights of the Arabs.
Facts are indeed fascinating things. You ought to go out and get yourself some.
LOL

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Amviennava,

Transjordan was part of the original Mandate of Palestine as drawn up by Winston Churchill in 1920. Then a few years later, ibn Saud drove the Hashemites out of the Hijaz in Western Arabia, and Churchill decided to give the eastern 3/4 of the Mandate of Palestine to the Hashemites as a consolation prize. It was then renamed the Kingdom of Transjordan.

This much is historical fact.

Now before you start talking about "historical Palestine" you have to be careful. The Palestinians today routinely talk about it as if there had been such a nation long before the British Mandate started in 1920, but that is simply not true.

If you will look at any 19th century Ottoman maps, you will see no borders that look anything like Palestine. Before WWI, the region that became Palestine was part of three larger Ottoman provinces: the Vilayet of Beirut, the Vilayet of Damascus, and the Independent Sanjak of Jerusalem. As far as the local Arabs were concerned, the whole area of "Filistin" was part of Syria, and the British were just drawing lines on the map to suit themselves, as they did with Lebanon, Syria and Iraq too.

You will look in vain for any Arab state of Palestine, ever, at any point of history. Christians and Jews talk about the Holy Land or Palestine, remembering Roman Judea or the ancient Kingdom of Israel. For the Arabs, it was a border region between Syria, Arabia and Egypt.

Certainly you had a majority population of Arabs in it (lots of minorities too: druze, armenians, jews, cicassians, turks, etc), but they didn't call themselves "Palestinians". They tended to id themselves by town: "I'm Nabulsi" etc. They were also divided sharply between townsmen and Bedouin (This division persists today, with townsmen anti-Israel and Bedouin pro-Israel).

That was a large part of the reason why the Arabs of Palestine fled instead of fought in 1948. They were not yet "Palestinians". They didn't have their own national organization or consciousness. Even the politically active ones wanted to stop the Zionists, not make their own country. If the Arabs had won in 1948, Palestine would have been divided between the victors, just as the West Bank and Gaza were divided up between Jordan and Egypt in the event.

Today's Palestinian movement is attempting to retrofit history to bolster their case, and to hide the real history of which they are ashamed. The Arab world despises them for having run. It is much less shameful that to have supposedly been brutally expelled by an irresistable Israeli army, than to admit they fled rather weak Jewish forces to wait on the sidelines for a crushing Arab victory that never happened.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

NadineSC :
ThoughtfulTed, thanks. Truly I wish Fareed Zakaria would read these comments to see what passes for mainstream commentary on Israel these days, and by people who call themselves "liberal" too! He might ask himself who he is in bed with, politically speaking.
_______________________________________________

If Fareed Zakaria actually reads any of the posts on this site, he's crazier than we are. He's a smart guy, why would he want to read this garbage, unless he needs a good laugh?
There's not a snowball's chance in hell of your ever convincing any of the crazies of anything real, no matter how many facts and how many sources you cite.
They are virulent anti-Semites pretending to be merely anti-Israel. They fool no one and, in any case, they are talking only to themselves.
Furthermore, if you really believe that someone who quotes conspiracy theory websites to back up his argument is amenable to the truth, you are living on a different planet than I.
Also, I really don't think we should characterize these people as "liberals." They bear as much resemblance to true liberals as skunks do to angels.
I have been posting on other websites and I thought that this site might have a more intelligent level of discussion. I guess I was wrong.
I'd advise you, for the sake of your sanity, to get out of here as quickly as you can, or else just stick around to heap ridicule. That, at least, has some value as an amusement, not to mention honing your satirical and comedic skills.
LOL

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed @February 16, 2009 9:02 PM: Where do I get my 'mis-infirmation'? Well, for one, there is the 'Balfour Declaration'. It is an interesting concept, especially when you also read accompanying comments when the author wondered whether he started something with unexpected consequences. I do believe that it predated even the UN, by the way. I also believe that, inexplicably, (brace yourself now, I am about to introduce you to a truly astounding concept) events did occur in Palestine before 1948!!!!!

Facts are truly fascinating things, aren't they?

Do enjoy your attempts at sarcasm, please. They are amusing.

barker3320 Author Profile Page:

Bien-pensant baloney at its worst.

It cannot be that both sides are playing Hide the Dhimmi.

AlanNY Author Profile Page:

Great article!

As I read the comments the one thing I can say is that I love America. Seeing people post here freely is wonderful. As we disagree we get it off our chest. We go to work the next day and out to lunch with people of all kinds.

With all of its flaws, can you think of a better model for any country? How could any country aspire to be something more than a free secular state?

America has created a place where people can transcend differences of any kind.

What if Israelis took to the streets to demand the American model? Before America forces it upon them, I mean -- It would be so much more healing and positive if it came from within.

Everyone would win. There would be no more "Jewish State". Islamic extremists would have no compelling reason to "wipe them off the map".

There would be no more reason to deport Arabs. What would they be disloyal to? A secular free state? I seriously doubt it. More likely, the Palestinians would throw out Hamas and lobby to be a state of the great secular nation of Israel.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed : "Has anyone else on this site been refused a post with the words that it must be approved by the owner of the blog?" I have at times had posts rejected for using 'unacceptable' language that was actually a copy-paste from the article I was blogging on! Go figure.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

AMviennaVA :
ThoughtfulTed & dj333 : An interesting thread. The essence of the numbers, however, is that the US/UK granted 2/3 of Palestine to 1/3 of the population (most of whom were NOT natives). The other 2/3 of the population (all of whom were natives), both Muslim and Christian, were relegated to 1/3 of the land.

It is also interesting that the Christian population that had survived thousands of years of coexistence (not always easy) with the Muslims, became refugees within 30 years of Western Christian rule. A sad commentary on the perpetrators. It si also interesting that in all our talk about the 'Judeo-Christian' world and values, Palestinian Christians, along with all other Arab Christians (remember the Christians of Iraq) are always excluded.
_______________________________________________

Where on earth do you get your misinformation?
First of all, the US/UK granted nothing to anyone. The UN General Assembly passed Resolution 181 which gave 2/3 of the arable land in the north to the Arabs, and 1/3 to the Jews. The Jews did get the lion's share of the desert, though.
Just Google Palestine in 1948 and all the relevant maps will be at your fingertips.
Of course, if you check it out, you won't be able to peddle your nonsense any more.
What? Oh, you don't need facts in order to peddle your nonsense.
Never mind then.
LOL

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

NadineSC: I appreciate the change in tone.

On to the posts: The line about Jordan is a canard. It is NOT Palestine. It is an attractive argument only to those who want to avoid repatriating the Palestinians to their ancestral homes. Despite that, it is invalid.

This leads to the next item, namely that the refugees are doing fine. Noone is doing fine who has been kicked out of his home. Refugees are not doing fine. As for the Palestinians (1) those in the Gaza strip are in an open air prison; (2) those in the West Bank are doing as fine as Black South Africans under the Afrikaner rule; (3) those in Lebanon are constantly bombed for the sin of wanting to return to their homes.

And all of them are subject to indiscrimate bombing; all for the sin of wanting to go home.

That is not doing fine.

All that aside, the "Western" rule I actually referred to is British in the case of Palestine (remember that they played God and gave away land that was not theirs) and American in Iraq (most Iraqi Christians became refugees since 2003)!

brennankevin60 Author Profile Page:

nadinesc Thankyou for your comments.
The IRA was funded in America not Dublin and the Ulster protestants were from Scotland and given free land and tenure by the Brits.The peace process was facilitated by Irish politicians going to the US to shut down the IRA funding partly in exchange for Irish support of the Silicone Valley extension into the EEC.
The parallels with the 1948 establishment of Israel in Palestine are only meaningfull if you look at the processes involved in the resolution.
Ireland became wealthy in the 1990's and the thinking in the conflict changed purely on this basis on both sides,nothing to do with religion.
Likewise with the Arab-Israeli conflict a new agenda in the US will change the perceived dispute lines and perhaps evolve into a solution based on the new horizons on both sides.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Has anyone else on this site been refused a post with the words that it must be approved by the owner of the blog?

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Amviennava,

You're not making any sense about the Christians of Palestine. They're doing just fine under "Western" (I presume you mean Israeli) rule; it's the gangster rule of the Palestinian Authority that has driven them out of the West Bank. They were okay under Jordanian and Israeli occupation.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

Amviennava,

True, most of the Jews were not natives of the Mandate of Palestine, but then neither were at least half the Arabs. There was huge Arab immigration before WWII, which only had to walk over the porous bordera from Lebanon, Syria or TransJordan, or even more simply, from the Arab to the Jewish settled areas of the Mandate. They came for jobs. There was no economic development anywhere else in the Levant that compared to Palestine.

As for having only "1/3" of Palestine, the Arabs had already got 3/4 of Palestine, which is now called "Jordan". So the rest of the argument was over parcelling out the remaining 1/4. They could have had considerably more than 1/3 of that 1/4 if they had accepted the Partition of November 1947. But no, the Jews had to be destroyed.

One note on refugees: The UN High Commission for Refugees (which handles all non-Palestinian refugees) defines a "refugee" as someone driven out of a settled abode who had lived there for at least 20 years. UNWRA, the special UN agency created to feed and house the Palestinian refugees, defines an Arab refugee from Palestine as someone who lived in Palestine for at least 2 years before 1948, and his descendants.

There's a good reason for the different definition. Large numbers would not have qualified under the standard definition.

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

VicVanMeter

“A question to our intenational posters. As far as I know, "Arab" is an ethnicity whereas "Jew" seems to be a religion. Before all this gets lost in translation, is the Israeli discrimination facing the Arabic ethnicity (in a sense, an apartheid of whites over arabs) or is this a religious issue (religious discrimination against Muslims as opposed to Hebrews)? To be honest, I'm murky on that subject.”
________________________________
I think that “Arab” and “Jew” are both the same “ethnicity” being different tribes led by different sons of Abraham. They are both Semite, so the term anti-Semite could apply equally to Arab or Jew. I will try to find a quick reference to either backup or refute this theory while I standby for others who are more knowledgeable to chime in on the subject.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed & dj333 : An interesting thread. The essence of the numbers, however, is that the US/UK granted 2/3 of Palestine to 1/3 of the population (most of whom were NOT natives). The other 2/3 of the population (all of whom were natives), both Muslim and Christian, were relegated to 1/3 of the land.

It is also interesting that the Christian population that had survived thousands of years of coexistence (not always easy) with the Muslims, became refugees within 30 years of Western Christian rule. A sad commentary on the perpetrators. It si also interesting that in all our talk about the 'Judeo-Christian' world and values, Palestinian Christians, along with all other Arab Christians (remember the Christians of Iraq) are always excluded.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

VicVanMeter Author Profile Page:

A question to our intenational posters. As far as I know, "Arab" is an ethnicity whereas "Jew" seems to be a religion. Before all this gets lost in translation, is the Israeli discrimination facing the Arabic ethnicity (in a sense, an apartheid of whites over arabs) or is this a religious issue (religious discrimination against Muslims as opposed to Hebrews)? To be honest, I'm murky on that subject.

Both "Arab" and "Jew" refers to ethnicity.

Judiasm is an ethnically based religion, but you don't have to profess Judaism to be Jewish; you just have to have a Jewish mother.

"Arab" ethnicity is usually defined liguistically: an "Arab" is someone whose mother tongue is Arabic. It's not racial. For example, the Palestinian Arabs are very racially mixed, they go from very light to dark (for example, the Mufti had red hair and blue eyes). They are also religiously mixed, since they are both Christian and Muslim. But they are all Arabs.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

NadineSC @February 16, 2009 6:12 PM: I am truly honored and privileged to be in the company of omeone as knowlegeable as you. By the way, 'the world center of Bahaism' will not be a church.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

BrennanKevin60, you've hit the germ of the truth here:
I grew up in Ireland in the days of the IRA and that now resolved struggle between Britain and Ireland.

The struggle was resolved between Britain and Ireland, not just in Ulster alone. Now imagine a scenario where Britain demanded that the Protestants of Ulster give away half of Ulster to the IRA as part of the "peace process", at a time when Ireland was funding the IRA with hundreds of millions of dollars to keep blowing innocent people up. And that Ireland got political benefit from the IRA by running continual propaganda on Irish TV teaching all the Irish to hate and loathe Protestants as a race of thieves and traitors, who were responsible for every problem the Irish ever had?

This scenario would be much more analogous to the Mideast. This scenario also explains why the conflict is intractable.

On the day that Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria want the Israeli/Pal conflict to be over, it will be over. It's that simple. Then they will help Israel clean out Iran's proxies and tell the Palestinians to shut up and sign the deal.

It doesn't happen because the Arab regimes are all tyrannical failures. They need the conflict to continue to keep their people's anger focused outward.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Hours ago I submitted my first post and got the same message that it would have to clear the blog owner. It was never posted and it contained nothing of an offensive nature.
Why?

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed, thanks. Truly I wish Fareed Zakaria would read these comments to see what passes for mainstream commentary on Israel these days, and by people who call themselves "liberal" too! He might ask himself who he is in bed with, politically speaking.

Don't these people ever stop to wonder how come, if Israel was so keen to massacre Arabs, that unaccountably they did not remove all the Arabs in 1948 or 1967, when they had the chance?

There are a million Israeli Arabs, and not one Jordanian Jew.

When Jordan took the West Bank in 1948, not one single solitary Jew was allowed to remain, and all traces of Jewish life were destroyed. All the Jewish graveyards were desecrated, all the Jewish synagogues were destroyed. Yet somehow, the mosques and churches of Israel stayed open. Even in 1967, the Dome of the Rock stayed open under control of the Muslim Waqf.

Such a strange oversight, no? If Israel is the theocratic fascist state these "liberals" say it is.

grdnabel Author Profile Page:

I sincerely hope that Judiaism survives Israel. So long as there is a state religion, there will never be a democracy. It's easy to see that within a generation or two Israel will be an aparthied or be involved in an ethnic cleansing that will make the holocaust of WW2 look pale in comparision. Zionism is a bad idea and it certainly hasn't done anything to decrease antisemitism or improve the safety of Jews around the world. If Israel is such a great place for Jewry, why is the Jewish population of the U.S. (or France) still greater than that of Israel? Again, I sincerely pray that Judiaism survives Israel. I have faith...it has survived everything else so far.

Gordon B. Abel

Minneapolis, Minnesota

VicVanMeter Author Profile Page:

A question to our intenational posters. As far as I know, "Arab" is an ethnicity whereas "Jew" seems to be a religion. Before all this gets lost in translation, is the Israeli discrimination facing the Arabic ethnicity (in a sense, an apartheid of whites over arabs) or is this a religious issue (religious discrimination against Muslims as opposed to Hebrews)? To be honest, I'm murky on that subject.

I suppose that whether this is a theocractic debate or a racial one matters a bit, but living in America and only having heard about the conflict in person from second-generation Lebanese friends and Jewish stepfamily, it's never been quite clear. Could someone weigh in a bit for me please?

rick22407 Author Profile Page:

DJ333 has it right:

“Unfortunately, we are probably past the point where a two state solution was possible, if there ever was one. The only real solution is a single, secular democratic state with strong religious freedom and anti-discrimination laws.

Unfortunately, the interests opposed to that will kill a lot of people before they ever allow it to happen.”
_____________________

Keep up the good work DJ. You are clearly the voice of reason on this thread.


brennankevin60 Author Profile Page:

I see you don't get many comments from Australia so here goes.This excellent article raises many questions about the future of Israel on lands annexed from Palestine post the Nazi holocausts in WW2.
Israel is at a critical re-defining point in its relationship with its Arab neighbours and just as importantly with the rest of the world especially the US.
The US is in a crisis not just financially but directionally. This must also produce a similar crisis in Israel because the US funds this 60 year old state financially, militarily and politically. The clouds that obscure the horizon in the US pass a grave shadow over this vulnerable land. When the people of New York,who have more Jews than Israel,say we are not funding this irrelevant issue we want funding for our kids and our future and who cares about Israel, then the Washington machines will redirect international policy.
Why is this important? Because simply pro-Israeli activity generates the one thing that politicians care about-votes.So therefore when the votes disappear the activity wil be replaced by yes a differant vote generating activity. So supporting Israel can be replaced in a nano-second by supporting the greens, lesbians or polar bears.
I grew up in Ireland in the days of the IRA and that now resolved struggle between Britain and Ireland. That two hundred year struggle was nothing to do with religion and was resolved by addressing the real issues that mattered to people on both sides, children,jobs,land and a future that you had input into.
The future of Israel will be resolved in the same way when people forget about Arabs and Jews and have the opportunity to work for a better future for their children and themselves. They need to work on their own agendas not those of others who benefit in their own world by addressing issues in Israel.
I hope my thoughts are not too "down under" for you.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed:
"Like the rest of your ilk, you conflate...Whatever displacement of Arabs took place, was as a result of a war which they began...As for your ridiculous idea...Sorry, but your galloping stupidity is on full display here...LOL."

Hey Ted,
Good to see they haven't removed your posting privileges for your routine abuse of policy! Per usual, the Arabs did it. Why not build a case for Israel, rather than revealing the rotten corpse that is at the root of Israel's con through demagoguery? Alas, that is the prevailing method. Speaks volumes of the "democratic nature" of Israel. All the best.

sakibaba1 Author Profile Page:

I think the only viable solution is:

United States of Isreal and Palestine

21st century is to bringing walls down and more global integration.....
multicultural democracies is the only way forward.
20% of India's population is muslim in majority hindu state but their last President was a muslim. Their will always be friction in such situations but if people are bound bound by their common humanity then issues can be resolved minus bloodshed.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Posted on February 16, 2009 18:12

NadineSC :
isaad2000yahoocom Author Profile Page:

When Hitler was against the Jews, they were living in peace in all Moslem and Arab countries and even very succesful businessmen and they were
never harmed.

This is also not true. Have you ever heard of the Great Farhood of Baghdad, in 1941? Part of the Nazi-backed effort to overthrow the British government in Iraq.

Not that living conditions were great for Jews and other dhimmis until the rise of the Nazis, but they got much, much worse in the 1930s, as the Nazis wooed the Arabs very successfully, and introduced Western anti-Semitic propaganda pieces like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. These efforts were wildly successful. The Grand Mufti, Haj Amin al Hussaini, was a prominent Arab Nazi, as were Nasser and Sadat in Egypt.

The Protocols are flourishing today in the Arab world, where they are accepted AS HISTORY (They were actually forged by the Tsarist secret police in the early 20th century). Both Egypt and Syria have made special Ramadan mini-series of The Protocols. The librarian of the new Library of Alexandria put a copy in the great books exhibit of the lobby, until an international outcry forced him to take it down.

Listening to Arabs talk about how relations with the Jews used to be so great before Zionism is exactly like listening to an old Southern segregationist talk about how they never was any problem with the "darkies" in his area until "outside agitators" came and spoiled everything. The Arabs may have thought things were great. The Jews and other minorities knew they were crummy.

______________________________________________

And save your confederate money boys, the South will rise again.
LOL
Great posts Nadine. Spot on with the facts that the nitwits either don't know or refuse to admit.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

NadineSC :
NadineSC : An interesting response. Now go and open a church in Israel. See what happens.

There are lots of churches in Israel, where they operate without a problem. There is also the world center of Bahaism, persecuted to destruction in its native Iran, on Mount Carmel.

Are you really this unbelievably ignorant?

_______________________________________________

They all are, every one of the knee-jerk Israel haters, in case you hadn't noticed.

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

“Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.”

-Reich Marshall Herman Goering

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

dj333 :
THOUGHTFULTED,

Your numbers don't contradict dave57's point, they make it: if the non-Jewish population was 1.35 million at the start of 1948, and - as Zakaria quotes - roughly 160,000 at the end, that suggests serious ethnic cleansing. Eight ninths of a population don't just get up and leave on principle. Those people should have just as much of a "right" of return as do those who may or may not be able to trace their families back to when the Romans did it to them.

The bottom line is that ethnic "homelands" are a dangerous 19th century anachronism and have no place in the 21st century. The ideal of ethnic nationalism caused all the major - and most of the minor - wars of the 20th century, and it's time it was put down. The US has always stood as the model for the opposite idea - something the last election reaffirmed - and we would be better off if our foreign policy reflected our ideals rather than our fears.
_________________________________________________

They are not "my numbers."
Like the rest of your ilk, you conflate the figures for the population of Palestine as a whole, rather than limiting it to the area which was set aside by the UN to be the Jewish state, as was clearly stated in the report. Again, the 1.3 million figure includes not only what is now Israel, but the West Bank and Gaza as well.
It is also clear, from the report, that even the majority of the Arab population arrived in Palestine at roughly the same time as the Jews.
Whatever displacement of Arabs took place, was as a result of a war which they began, and all of it was in the area that the Palestinians should have declared as a state instead of starting a war.
As for your ridiculous idea about "ethnic homelands," I might point out that, according to your lights, Italy, Greece, Ireland, England, France Switzerland, Germany, Austria, etc., etc., etc. are merely 19th century anachronisms and should probably be abolished.
Sorry, but your galloping stupidity is on full display here,
LOL

optimist3 Author Profile Page:

Zakariah is spot on. With the recent election Israel has a choice to make in balancing the "democratic" and "Jewish" nature of the state. Increasingly it appears that Israel will drive Arabs from its' midst to realize the founding goal of an exclusive "Jewish state."

To cheers from the coliseum in Israel and America, beneath the bootheels, tank shells, bulldozers, and bombs, Israel will crush the remnant of the Arabs of Palestine--using all of the learned methods: false flag, propaganda, siege, division, assassination, disappearances, mass jailings, torture, the cordoning off with barbed wire, deprivation of water and food, the "other-ing" of Arabs into sub-human status, and the dehumanization of Arabs into rude animals unworthy of simple dignity--of life.

To do so, Israel will continue to stir the population into frenzy--while refusing to recognize the human rights of those suffering under occupation--in contravention of all civilized conventions. This while declaring Israel "civilized" and the righteous victim of terrorist hordes acting without a just cause.

After all, so say the Israeli''s, the Arabs drew first-blood--and, remember what was done to the Jews in the Holocaust.

The mask is off. Will the "international community" assent?

Goering, and Goebbels, indeed, will be proud.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

NadineSC : An interesting response. Now go and open a church in Israel. See what happens.

There are lots of churches in Israel, where they operate without a problem. There is also the world center of Bahaism, persecuted to destruction in its native Iran, on Mount Carmel.

Are you really this unbelievably ignorant?

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

isaad2000yahoocom Author Profile Page:

When Hitler was against the Jews, they were living in peace in all Moslem and Arab countries and even very succesful businessmen and they were
never harmed.

This is also not true. Have you ever heard of the Great Farhood of Baghdad, in 1941? Part of the Nazi-backed effort to overthrow the British government in Iraq.

Not that living conditions were great for Jews and other dhimmis until the rise of the Nazis, but they got much, much worse in the 1930s, as the Nazis wooed the Arabs very successfully, and introduced Western anti-Semitic propaganda pieces like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. These efforts were wildly successful. The Grand Mufti, Haj Amin al Hussaini, was a prominent Arab Nazi, as were Nasser and Sadat in Egypt.

The Protocols are flourishing today in the Arab world, where they are accepted AS HISTORY (They were actually forged by the Tsarist secret police in the early 20th century). Both Egypt and Syria have made special Ramadan mini-series of The Protocols. The librarian of the new Library of Alexandria put a copy in the great books exhibit of the lobby, until an international outcry forced him to take it down.

Listening to Arabs talk about how relations with the Jews used to be so great before Zionism is exactly like listening to an old Southern segregationist talk about how they never was any problem with the "darkies" in his area until "outside agitators" came and spoiled everything. The Arabs may have thought things were great. The Jews and other minorities knew they were crummy.

demtse Author Profile Page:

Anti-semitism against semites, by zionists, no less. Who woulda thunk it?

grunderpup Author Profile Page:

You people are all insane.

timothy2me Author Profile Page:

So Some in Israel want people to take a loyalty oath. Will that also include turning in US passports?

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

NadineSC : An interesting response. Now go and open a church in Israel. See what happens.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Posted on February 16, 2009 17:20

asizk :
Some idiot keeps advertsing hsi stupidity by recycling this BS every time and every where:

" A. No peace with Israel"
B. No recognition of Israel
C. No negotiations with Israel."

The Palestinians should go along with the above on condition that:

1// All jews that landed in Arab historic Palestine under British jew Herbert Samuel on or after 1914 should pack up and leave back to where they come from-they still have their passports and many used under the barrage of Hezballah missiles in 2006-they come in handy.

2// Restore and recognise the Arab Palestine that the jews destoryed in 1947/8;

3// All six million PAlestinian refugess that were ethnically cleansed by jewish terror and violence in 1947/8 should -and will- return to their home land, Palestine.

4// jews that numubered no more than 12,000 in 1882 are full Palestinian citizens and should be allowed to live in peace with their Arab brothren as they had for hundreds of years.

There is no such thing as "israel"-these are armed illegal jewish immigrants and thugs that Britain should have set up a state for them in Yorkshire instead of PAlestine or by Germany in Bavaria as a compensation for the allged "holcaoust."

There is no need for this evil jewish entity-after all there is a prospering jewish state with a jewish mayor,New York, with mor jews than in occupied PAlestine.

_______________________________________________

Nya,nya,na,na,na!

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

DardenCavalcade @ February 16, 2009 8:48 AM: A slight correction: It is a very common mistake that we Americans make, but Israel is an 'experiment in liberal democracy' ONLY FOR JEWS. Muslims and Chiristians are excluded.

This is not true at all. Could you please explain to me how Azmi Bisha ever got elected to the Knesset, if Muslims can't vote? Israeli Arabs and religious minorities are citizens and they vote.

asizk Author Profile Page:


Azmi Bishara is a true Arab Nationalist, Humanist,a first rate intellectual, author and analyst, who could no longer endure living under the occupation of the racist apartheid militaristic jewish ethno-religious occupying entity.

Azmi is doing a great job in sheding flood lights on the innermost workings of the occupying racist apartheid jewish entity to entire Arab World-he is a first hand victim/witness after all.

I call upon you Fareed to host Azmi Bishara on your great CNN GPS-well that is if the jewish owners of CNN will allow you!!!!

Perhaps Azmi is the formost living authority on Palestine and the problems of the contemporary Arab World.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

I hope Fareed Zakaria reads the comments on this thread to see how anti-Semitism is flourishing on the Left, fed by a politically correct and largely invented tale of innocent Arab victimhood.

You wouldn't want to examine the responsibilities of these Arab victims for the current situation, how their governments started the wars and created the perpetual Palestinian refugee crisis, who alone among the refugees of the world increase and grow from generation to generation, never to be resettled anywhere but in the ruins of destroyed Israel?

Nah, if you did that you would accused of being a racist imperialist.

Much simpler to blame everything on Israel, and endorse the Arab conclusion that if only Israel were destroyed, the Mideast would be a paradise.

I'm sure Zakaria fancies himself too smart to buy into such simplistic propaganda. But here he is, whitewashing Bisha and using him as a spokesman to agonize over the sufferings of the Israeli Arabs. And blackwashing (it should be a word) Avigdor Lieberman's reaction to openly seditious Arab leaders like Bisha so that he can indulge in the Left's favorite game, moral equivalence.

This is a devil's bargain whereby the Left aids and abets the most extreme and murderous elements in the Arab world. True Arab democrats, who would make peace with Israel if they could, have been left out in the cold to be murdered one by one, like the March 14th party in Lebanon, while Bisha (and Zakaria by proxy) have aided Hizbullah.

Chaotician Author Profile Page:

We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford
University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the
cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab
population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion,
A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know
the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because
geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab
villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz
Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar
Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place
built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann,
Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the
aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they
inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which
appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by
transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of
Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the
numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a
slightly different translation).

stephendclark Author Profile Page:

OwlDog:

Israel IS a liberal democracy (so far) even if the Zionist political right dominates. There are Arabs in the Knesset, though they're marginalized. Arabs still have the vote even if it doesn't mean much.

Yours is a quibble without recognizing my larger point that what we see now is nothing compared with what's to come. Israel's cause is hopeless, and Israelis will become far, far more savage than they are right now.

If you think Israelis really have a choice, you're a fool.

There is no solution.

asizk Author Profile Page:

Some idiot keeps advertsing hsi stupidity by recycling this BS every time and every where:

" A. No peace with Israel"
B. No recognition of Israel
C. No negotiations with Israel."

The Palestinians should go along with the above on condition that:

1// All jews that landed in Arab historic Palestine under British jew Herbert Samuel on or after 1914 should pack up and leave back to where they come from-they still have their passports and many used under the barrage of Hezballah missiles in 2006-they come in handy.

2// Restore and recognise the Arab Palestine that the jews destoryed in 1947/8;

3// All six million PAlestinian refugess that were ethnically cleansed by jewish terror and violence in 1947/8 should -and will- return to their home land, Palestine.

4// jews that numubered no more than 12,000 in 1882 are full Palestinian citizens and should be allowed to live in peace with their Arab brothren as they had for hundreds of years.

There is no such thing as "israel"-these are armed illegal jewish immigrants and thugs that Britain should have set up a state for them in Yorkshire instead of PAlestine or by Germany in Bavaria as a compensation for the allged "holcaoust."

There is no need for this evil jewish entity-after all there is a prospering jewish state with a jewish mayor,New York, with mor jews than in occupied PAlestine.

NadineSC Author Profile Page:

I used to think Zakaria was an honest commentator, but no more. How can anyone report that Amzi Bisha was accused for "expressions of support for Hizbullah" when he was allowed to make such expressions for many, many years while remaining in the Knesset, even to the extent of making them from Beirut and Damascus?

It was only when Bisha actively began to help Hizbullah with targeting their missiles in the 2006 war that charges of sedition were brought. Any other sovereign country on earth would have been less tolerant of treason, not more.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

DardenCavalcade @ February 16, 2009 8:48 AM: A slight correction: It is a very common mistake that we Americans make, but Israel is an 'experiment in liberal democracy' ONLY FOR JEWS. Muslims and Chiristians are excluded.

AMviennaVA Author Profile Page:

Unfortunately there are many bigots like 'Yishai_613'. They actually justify terrorism.

isaad2000yahoocom Author Profile Page:

When Hitler was against the Jews, they were living in peace in all Moslem and Arab countries and even very succesful businessmen and they were
never harmed.
Now the western countries are attacking only moslem contries, destroyed Somalia , killing Afganistan,destroyed Iraq.
Now arranging to attack Iran.
Everday we hear Israel is a democracy, and palistinians are terrorist.
It is a shame and insult to humanity when palistinians or moslems fight against the agressors, they are branded fanatics and terrorists.
May all the very clever Zionists and their allies
remember this: one day there was a ROMAN,GREEK,
RUSSIAN BRITISH AND FRENCH EMPIRES AND ALL are history now. I wonder how the New Zionist empire
can survive and how long without the USA war machine and dollars.

newageblues Author Profile Page:

you're a b s artist philotoren. No time to waste on slippery debaters like you.

asizk Author Profile Page:

Fareed,
Your CNN GPS is excellent.

On your article:

The correct title for your article should have been: "The Existential Dilema of the Victimized Palestinians," with an appropriate content as follows.

It is the Palestinians who were invaded by illegal armed jewish immigrants and terrorized over 70% of them ethnically cleansed by the jews in 1947/8 and the rest occupied by a brutal racist apartheid military regime-the longest in modern history.

There are now just over elevn million Palestinians in and outside Palestine:

A// 5.5 rpt 5.5 million Palestinians now live in occupied Arab historic Palestine:1.5 million in the first 78% of occupied Palestine of 1947/8 the so called "israel." 2.5 million in the west bank including Jerusalem and 1.5 million in Concentration Camp Gaza.

B// Over six million Palestinian refugees have been languishing in refugee camps for the past sixty yeras-just two or three hours bus drive from their homeland, Palestine-those are the ones that were ethnically cleansed by armed illegal jewish terrorist gangs such as Haganah,Irgun,Stren and Palmach among others in 1947/8.

The return of the six million Palestinian refugees is the Palestine Problem:without their return there would never ever be peace.And therefore the only ultiamte solution for the Question of Palestine is to dismantle the so called "israel," a racist aparthied militaristic jewish ethno-religious entity-in order to restore the Palestine that the jews destroyed in the past sixty years.

It is ironic that a Russian mafia thug Liberman and an illegal immigrant to Palestine wants again to ethnically cleanse the occupied Palestinans that still endure racist jewish occupaition now living-hardly-as second class citizens within an alien entity,the so called delusional "israel."

How insualting to brand those 1.5 million occupied Palestinians as "israeli Arabs," for this term is appalling. It is as if illegal Chinese immigrants occupy Calforinia and satrt calling its occupied population "Chinese Americans!!!!!!"

The Dilema par excellence is for the Palestinians and not for the jews who still cling to their original passports and should just pack up and depart peaecfully-sooner than later.

Those who support "israel" do so because it is not sitting on their land and not stealing more of it; just today "israel" annaxed another large chunck of Palestinian land south of occupied Jerusalem to build 2500 houses for more illegal jewish immigrants-mean while "israel" wants the peace "Process" to continue:A Process without peace,only to buy more time to steal more Palestinain land.

Only less tha 8% rpt less than 8% of Arab Historic Palestine, mutialted by settlements,"military roads" and the apartheid wall remains for a "viable Palestinian state."

Is it then not an existenatial Palestinian Dilema?

gabraeal Author Profile Page:

The international political and economical problem caused by the religion and believed radicalises of Jewish, Christians , Muslims . Hindus etc. every side of these are thinking that they are in the right way when all of the other sides are wrong the same as dictatorships believe.
At same time there are also who are thinking and believing that they are the best and the masters of the world . They are believing in apartheid , economical power , highness than others and working every time to make the others under their service and orders as the result of selfish ism and feeling of superiority .
The world wide and all nations every were are facing the problems of hate, , icing , inflatitions flooding, wars , jobless , poorness etc. which need to face and solve them in love , peace , justice , and international co-operations.
Other wise if the humanity didn't think about that and take real steps and solutions appreciating the good ideas of the thinkers and scientists the ship which they are on it will sink.Let us save earth life and humanity before reaching to end point of this bad journey . Now it's the time of change not time terrorism , fighting , destroying and spreading the suspecting and hate among nations. Please to began to change not in one nation only but let us look and see the all nations , all countries as one nation and all humanity as one people. For that
This is my call to every body in all nations all governments , and all organizations to give me a hand to found an organization I named it PATHSEL to solve the problems doing our best than spending money and time in none true superstitions , wars and useless selfish joyments.
Please : I am requesting every one who read this comment to send it at list to six persons.
I wish love , peace, wealth , health and development to everbody in the world.
Whith my best regards
GABRAEAL
gabraeal@gmail.com

person2 Author Profile Page:

I do agree with Mr. Zakaria about education, which is in bad shape in Arab towns but also inadequate for Jewish kids. This is a real shame, especially for a country run by Jews!

This is as much a threat to Israel’s future as Hamas, and is an issue that both Jewish and Arab Israelis can get involved in on the same side.

dj333 Author Profile Page:

JoelJay_2000 wrote:

I deeply wonder, “Would the Iranians drop this bomb on Israel knowing it would also kill many Palestinians as well as making the area inhabitable?” He thinks that they would do it in a minute and, knowing what I know, he’s probably right.
_______________________________

The actual leader of Iran has publicly stated that the manufacture and use of nuclear weapons is an abomination to God. This statement was made since they abandoned their nuclear weapons program and would have to be publicly renounced for them to safely restart the program, for internal political reasons. Israel and the US have never made such a statement.

Iran's nuclear program is totally legal - unlike Israel's - and they are fully within their rights to produce nuclear fuel. Our hostility to their government actually increases their need for this technology, rather than decreasing it, as does Russia's increasing use of fuel supplies as a weapon. If Israel attacked Iran's fuel production sites they would be committing an act of war, and any middle eastern government that granted them fly-over rights would probably fall - this includes Iraq.

In fact, an Israeli attack on Iran could potentially undo all the progress made in Iraq in one day - much of the Iraqi leadership we put in power owes Iran as much as they owe us, and the whole structure of power there would shift if we (and by extension, they) were forced to take sides in a "hot" war between Iran and Israel. This is why Bush refused to assist Israel in an attack last year - even he could see what a bad idea it was.

We are poorly served by our media, and it puts the world in a very dangerous place. Iran is not our "friend", but they are not evil people, and there is a lot of common ground between us. If we simply started using logic and reason in our dealings with them - and treated them like logical and reasonable people - we would all be much better off.

person2 Author Profile Page:

I don't claim that Azmi Bishara is disloyal just because he is an Israeli Arab, I claim that he is disloyal because he was passing secrets to Israel's enemies and supported Hezbollah's attacks on the country he was supposedly representing in government.

Discrimination against people for being Israeli Arab is wrong and I look forward to the day when both Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel live together in a multi-ethnic society where no distinctons are made based on religion or ethnic origin. However, there is nothing wrong with disaproval of people or political parties who act in ways that seek to destroy this society.

shilotoren Author Profile Page:

newageblues:

theocracy:
n., pl. -cies.

1. A government ruled by or subject to religious authority.
2. A state so governed.

Israel is neither. In fact the Chief Rabbis are chosen by the Knesset. Judaism is the majority religion and as such Jewish holidays are the official state holidays. Much like the USA where Christian holidays are also state holidays.

True, Blue Laws are in the most not enforced, but many still exist which strengthens my point that many Western democracies have enshrined certain religious observances. Israel is as Jewish as the USA is Christian (give and take on certain areas).

see: http://www.answers.com/blue%20laws#Bergen_County.2C_New_Jersey

As for the Reform and Conservative Rabbis, only about 1% of the Jewish population define (probably less than that) themselves as being Reform or Conservative. Reform and Conservative Rabbis do not recognize the Jewish Law (Halacha) and in turn Orthodox do not recognize Reform and Conservative.
The discussion is vast and I doubt the details are important to you (afterall you are more interested in retractions of factual statements).

Sodomy, in general, doesn't catch my fancy. Legislation against it is a sign of religious beliefs imposing themselves on the secular society. As Seinfield would say "Not that there is anything wrong with that...".

lynch1 Author Profile Page:

It is only a matter of time before Israel expells the Arabs living legally in Israel as Israeli citizens. If not expulsion, then it would be extermination. After the Arabs are dealt with, the political opposition will be next.

Israel has completely lost its moral compass. It is sad to see, but the signs of moral decline are unambiguous.

In the U.S. constitution, freedom of religion is guaranteed. It is time to cut the cord that binds the U.S. to Israel and live up to our principles.

dj333 Author Profile Page:

Freepost wrote:

many Muslims conspired with the Nazis in WWII including the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

Seig Heil you bunch of loons!
____________________________________

Yeah, but then so did the Jewish anti-mandate group Lehi, which gave Lakud it's second PM. There has been a lot of speculation as to if Lehi really wanted to create a fascist Jewish Homeland or not, but it seems like all this pro-German stuff was more along the lines of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". The enemy at the time for both Jewish and "Arab" nationalists was Colonial Britain, and if that meant allying with Hitler, so be it.

I actually suspect that much of the current interest in Hitler is also of this "enemy or my enemy" ilk. "Anti-semitism" in the middle east is not totally irrational, and much of it is actually pushed by Israel: when it labels legitimate criticism of its policies as "anti-semitic", it adds legitimacy to even the irrational forms of anti-semitism. In the end people start agreeing with Hitler, since they have come to believe that they have rational reasons for "anti-semitism". There's a great story about exactly this sort of thing involving a boy and a wolf. In case you haven't heard it, it does not end well...

gusrufsoza Author Profile Page:

I have been reading about the plight of the Palestinian Arabs throughout my adult life. The only thing that I can say is every time I read about this problem I thank my stars that I, belonging to a so called minority community was born in a country where more than eighty percent of the population of a billion plus is polytheistic (Hindu) including a sprinkling of animists.

I therefore cannot be blamed for thinking that it is monotheism, both the Jewish variety and the Islamic, which is the primary cause of the West Asian situation. Monotheism by its very essence makes people unaccomadative of other religions and cultures. Add to this the rather immoral mollycoddling of the Israelis by the Americans, because of a combination of religious and military factors, and the situation only gets worse in terms of human suffering

Hence, short of the very destruction of the artificially created state of Israel or the expulsion of the Israeli Arabs and their dispersal, there will be no peace in the Middle East in the foreseeable future. Which will come first is the billions of dollars question.

spamsux1 Author Profile Page:

Question for Fareed Zakaria:
How many Jews and Fatah members live in Gaza?
Is the percentage greater than or less than Arabs living in Israel?

RedRat Author Profile Page:

Well I see that I am being castigated by both Islamic and Jewish supporters! Perhaps I have succeed.

To OwlDog: If I recall this very "small minority" of Muslims rammed three planes into U.S. buildings killing 3,000 people. This small minority is also responsible for the ongoing wars in the Middle East. Hey for a very small minority, they sure do make a mess. Now I do believe that perhaps a majority of Muslims are indeed not this way, but until this majority gets its act together and begins to exert control on this vicious minority, Islam is going to have to live with a bad name. 80 years of encroachment is then supposed to justify all of this killing and hatred? This is nothing more than the end justifying the means, not what i would call a very satisfying "moral" argument. I calls them as I see them.

To ThoughtfulTed: Proselytizing? Did I ever say that Jewish people proselytize? I certainly did not. If anything, it is quite the opposite. After all when you have been chosen, you don't need anymore. While you may defend the Israelis by saying that his view is held by only the "extreme orthodox Jews", which may indeed be true, it certainly runs through many of the Israeli policies and attitudes toward the resident Palestinian population of Israel (e.g., discrimination, etc). The creation of the Israeli state was founded on this very idea, they were given their land by God. Under what mandate were the Jewish people given their current land in the Middle East? By the then fledgling United Nations! Can you really blame the Arabs for being a tad bit pissed off when the supposedly "non-colonial" Western nations after WWII, basically took land away from people who were there for thousands of years and gave it to newcomers. Am I making excuses for Arab recriminations? Absolutely Not! But on what basis was this land given to them? Orthodox Jews or Zionists, call them what you will, convinced Western leaders to give them land in Palestine.

Both of you (OwlDog and ThoughtfulTed) missed my point. Here I am complaining that it is the basis of some kind of deity talking some people wandering in the desert is the basis for conflict. Both sides, Muslim and Jews, who justify their actions because God is on their side. Gad, this reminds me of a football game where Jesus is supposed to help all players. One side loses and oer other side wins. It is religion that is at the basis of this conflict.

whistling Author Profile Page:


It is hughly surprising

But very rewarding and valuable to have
Zakaria's column today.

We get so little here except zionist propoganda, including three rabbis lately...two of whom
said anyone not sure about the holocaust should be chased and persecuted!!

And one who chastised American leaders for referrfing to God, particularly as "God Bless America"...because he considers it a violation of the third commandment.

Surely that stunned evern the WAPO. Or did it?

dj333 Author Profile Page:

Gilbertpb40:

There will be no peace in the region without a two state solution.
_______________________________

Unfortunately, we are probably past the point where a two state solution was possible, if there ever was one. The only real solution is a single, secular democratic state with strong religious freedom and anti-discrimination laws. Unfortunately, the interests opposed to that will kill a lot of people before they ever allow it to happen.

And while those destructive interests are on all sides, as the stronger power, Israeli jews have much more ability to make things better or worse than any of the other players do, which puts the moral burden on them to do the heaviest lifting. They don't want to see things that way, so thing get worse.

owldog Author Profile Page:

stephendclark :

As long as Zionism is not threatened, Israel is a liberal democracy...

--------------
You mean "a liberal democracy for those who are ethnically at least ¼ Jewish" don't you?

How is this much different from Iran, another ethnic/religious "democracy"

dj333 Author Profile Page:

THOUGHTFULTED,

Your numbers don't contradict dave57's point, they make it: if the non-Jewish population was 1.35 million at the start of 1948, and - as Zakaria quotes - roughly 160,000 at the end, that suggests serious ethnic cleansing. Eight ninths of a population don't just get up and leave on principle. Those people should have just as much of a "right" of return as do those who may or may not be able to trace their families back to when the Romans did it to them.

The bottom line is that ethnic "homelands" are a dangerous 19th century anachronism and have no place in the 21st century. The ideal of ethnic nationalism caused all the major - and most of the minor - wars of the 20th century, and it's time it was put down. The US has always stood as the model for the opposite idea - something the last election reaffirmed - and we would be better off if our foreign policy reflected our ideals rather than our fears.

gilbertpb40 Author Profile Page:

I am so sad for all of the Palestinians and for reasonable Israeli's and American Jewish people who want peace in the region. Please, all of you, wake up. There will be no peace in the region without a two state solution.

owldog Author Profile Page:

ThoughtfulTed :

Here's a website whose facts and figures are generally considered to be perfectly accurate by both sides to the conflict.

--------------------
this is propaganda bull, which distorts fact even more.

The Zionist movement of "The Iron Wall" to take Palestine by force of arms from the native Palestinians, was planned in the 1920's. By the 1930's it became a very popular movement, and dominated Zionist politics after World War II.

The British Balfour mandate, authorized Palestinian land to be annexed by Zionists for Jews only, and appointed a committed Zionist, Herber Samuel, to run the occupation of Palestine, who biased every event in favor of Jews and against Palestinians. The Palestinian people have reacted to these events the way any people would react to the planned and executed theft of their homeland.

stephendclark Author Profile Page:

As long as Zionism is not threatened, Israel is a liberal democracy. We are beginning to see the end of that. Liberal democracy will not survive the siege mentality for long.

There will come a day when Israel is recognized to be more of a liability than an asset to the United States and then we'll see what happens. The conflict we know now is nothing compared with the nihilistic hell that's to come.

whistling Author Profile Page:


The more we learn about savage Israel the more disgusting it gets.

Israel is such a treat, isn't it?
AND OUR TAX MONEY SUPPORTS THAT?

owldog Author Profile Page:

RedRat :

Allah has given the Truth to the Arab world, and hence they have this Islamic mandate to convert or kill the infidel (i.e., everyone who is not a TRUE Muslim). Out of this, you expect to get some kind of peace? Hardly!!!

-----------------

You are spewing hatred.

What you say is the most extreme version of militant fundamentalist Islam, hardly the norm, and certainly not that of the Palestinians in the early 19th century, a peaceful congenial people, who first treated Jews as ancestral brothers.

The Jihadist you see today are the result of 80 years or so of encroachment and ethnic cleansing on their homeland, followed by oppression, discrimination, and countless massacres committed by Zionist Jews, supported first by the British political establishment and then after WWII by the United States.

1humanity Author Profile Page:

It is time to let UN and Security Council takes its course and pass some fair resolutions as it fits, without us vetoing it.
No Israeli government has ever abided by any of the promises they made since 1948 including the many UN resolutions and the Oslo Agreement and kept expanding its illegal settlements in the occupied land.
However, through their propaganda machine here in the U.S., they have been coming up with phony excuses:
First, there was no one to represent Palestinians, then, PLO was a terrorist organization, then, Arafat was not a "partner for peace," then, Abbas was not strong enough, then, Palestinian authority was not representing all of the Palestinians, then, democratically elected Hamas was a terrorist group! Now, they want to eliminate Hamas and the Palestinians in Gaza and only want to talk to Abbas! Uhm, are we seeing a pattern here!?
Let UN and neutral world parties (with some dignity and justice) objectively take some actions to stop this 21st century disgrace to humanity.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

dave57 :
There was a time that the native Palestinians [Muslims], were in the majority[%85]. Israel pushed, bulldozed, forced them out of their heritage. We Americans are learning more and more everyday, about how Israel has mistreated them. I'm not so sure we like Israel anymore. The U.S. has been their one ally, and we have a large Jewish population in our country. I don't think it is a good idea for them create their own holocaust injuring the Palestinians. It appears to me that we have allowed ourselves to be duped, and are on the wrong side.

______________________________________________-

Here's a website whose facts and figures are generally considered to be perfectly accurate by both sides to the conflict.

http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm

A quote:
3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs.

I really don't expect you to actually check out this site though, you might learn something you'd rather not. You couldn't handle the truth.

1humanity Author Profile Page:

marcyhoffman wrote:
"In America, all new citizens must declare their loyalty to the State and pledge allegiance to our common good. Why is it wrong for Israel to expect the same from all its citizens."
-----------------------------------------------
The problem here is that the loyalty of Israeli agents and US/Israeli dual citizens is not to U.S., when Israel is in the picture. In fact, many of them don't even feel they belong to US citizenry, a lot of them spy on us, and the politicians and think tank "experts" (Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Wolfowitz, Dennis Ross,etc.)jeopardize our national security for the benifit of Israel.

owldog Author Profile Page:

Denying Israel's "right to exist" came after Zionist Israel's denying the Palestinian people exist at all, or that Palestine itself ever existed, but rather the land was always Israel and always exclusively belonged to only ethnic and religious Jews.

Supporters of Israel's policies never mention this, but always insidiously imply such people deny "The Jewish PEOPLE'S right to exist" [rather than an ethnocratically-pure State's right to exist] which invokes the holocaust and works like a charm for popular support of this apartheid State.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:


RedRat :
Here is the real dilemma between the Israelis and Arabs: Both peoples believe that they are chosen by God! Ergo, they both feel and consider themselves right and just in this cause. As long as both sides feel they have God's blessing, there is little hope for rational peace between the two. The Israelis, because they are the chosen people, feel it is pretty much OK to discriminate against any outsider. On the other hand, Allah has given the Truth to the Arab world, and hence they have this Islamic mandate to convert or kill the infidel (i.e., everyone who is not a TRUE Muslim). Out of this, you expect to get some kind of peace? Hardly!!!

_____________________________________________-

Only the most extreme orthodox Jews actually believe that they were chosen by god, and even that only means chosen to carry out his commandments.
Most Jews laugh at that kind of nonsense, which is merely a staple of anti-Semitic propaganda anyway.
In any case, the Jewish idea of a Chosen People does not give Jews any particular superiority, and for the past two thousand years, the orthodox believe that they are suffering for their failures to carry out god's commandments properly. They are abashed, not proud.
You spout anti-Semitic BS as though you know what you are talking about.
The Jews have never believed much in prosetylization, suspicious of anyone who actually wanted to take on the odious mantle of being "chosen" in the first place.
The Muslims, on the other hand, have never made a secret of their hatred for infidels, leading whom are the most hated Jews.

sdr1 Author Profile Page:

Disowning Israel's Arab Minority ...?

The borders of Israel, as currently delineated,
are not sustainable. They do not separate one
people from the other... which is what all
international borders must eventually be
designed to do--regardless of ethnicity, as in
the United States and most everywhere else
... or because of it, as in the Middle East, in
Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and everywhere one people
have been incorporated into another people's
country without their expressed consent.

If we have seen these objections being
raised in Spain and Britain, we shall
certainly see them being raised elsewhere!

So, whether the redrawing of Israel's borders
along its ethnic fault-lines happens now or
later, there must absolutely eventually occur
a redrawing of Israel's borders which leave
one country almost entirely Jewish and the
other almost entirely Arab. This is REALITY.
And one can damn the Jews for being realists
at last, or damn them for not being realists
until then (as it appears to forever be the
habit of us non-Jews to damn Jews no matter
what they do). But in the end, if it doesn't
happen the result will be a quite horrific
"civil" war that will redraw them in blood
and with blood. That is the alternative.

So better to do it sooner than later: It will be
a far more civilized a project if it is done by
cool heads rather than by inflamed emotions.

S D Rodrian
http://sdrodrian.com

smokberry2002@yahoo.com Author Profile Page:

Mr Zakaria's program GPS is about the only intelligent news program in America.

I fully expect the Jews to shut it down so they can feed us the regular garbage we are forced to watch in America, the other Israeli occupied territory.

dave57 Author Profile Page:

There was a time that the native Palestinians [Muslims], were in the majority[%85]. Israel pushed, bulldozed, forced them out of their heritage. We Americans are learning more and more everyday, about how Israel has mistreated them. I'm not so sure we like Israel anymore. The U.S. has been their one ally, and we have a large Jewish population in our country. I don't think it is a good idea for them create their own holocaust injuring the Palestinians. It appears to me that we have allowed ourselves to be duped, and are on the wrong side.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Posted on February 16, 2009 13:15

mathewneville :
Israel's Rationale for Murder ??????????

After unearthing their country's declassified archives, honest Israeli scholars have pointed to an Israeli campaign of rape, murder, and ethnic cleansing that entered full swing in 1947.

Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, said to a colleague shortly after Israel's expulsion of 750,000 Palestinians, "They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?"
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article21992.htm

______________________________________________

So we are supposed to take as truth, or even accurate information, the stuff that a single individual, with an obvious bias towards crackpot conspiracy theories, chooses to post on his silly website.
LOL
Right off the bat, the quote you quote is falsified and inaccurate.
Some information.
LOL

RedRat Author Profile Page:

Here is the real dilemma between the Israelis and Arabs: Both peoples believe that they are chosen by God! Ergo, they both feel and consider themselves right and just in this cause. As long as both sides feel they have God's blessing, there is little hope for rational peace between the two. The Israelis, because they are the chosen people, feel it is pretty much OK to discriminate against any outsider. On the other hand, Allah has given the Truth to the Arab world, and hence they have this Islamic mandate to convert or kill the infidel (i.e., everyone who is not a TRUE Muslim). Out of this, you expect to get some kind of peace? Hardly!!!

patriciainsandiego Author Profile Page:

It's a myth that Israel is America's ally. Israel is a nation who operates apartheid for its non-jewish citizens. Those who say America has so much in common with Israel as a democracy are trying to distort the reality of the lives of non-jewish citizens in Israel. Can you imagine in our country if non-Christians were "exempt" from service in the U.S. Military? Exempt in this case is no privilege, it's a scarlet letter. Did you know that many privileges are bestowed on IDF veterans and those "exempt" from service obviously don't enjoy those privileges. The best book I read on the reality of zionism was written by Madeline Albright's ex-husband--"Their Promised Land" by Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright. It tells the tale of two families (Arab and Jew) living peacefully side by side in the same valley until Zionism destroyed their peace. Zionism is no ally of American democracy.

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:


momsablogger :
etc., etc.
In the last analysis, which is worse: Arabs who say (rather futilely) that they'd like to push Israel into the sea or Israeli mobs yelling "Death to Arabs"?
______________________________________________

I won't bother with your ridiculous religious foolisheness, but I would simply like to point out that it is the Arab mobs who are marching everywhere screaming "Death to the Jews."
If you can point me to any source that shows Israelis marching in the streets shouting "Death to Arabs" I should be most interested in seeing it.
Not that I suppose it isn't possible, I've just never seen it, and please don't refer me to crazy settlers, they are not representative of Israelis in general. I need to hear about Jewish mobs of many thousands crowding the streets of Jerusalem, or Tel Aviv, or Haifa burning Arab flags, effigies of Arab leaders, and threatening to break into Arab embassies or consulates.
Thank you.

marcyhoffman Author Profile Page:

In America, all new citizens must declare their loyalty to the State and pledge allegiance to our common good. Why is it wrong for Israel to expect the same from all its citizens.
In fact, what country would offer full citizenship, with all its inherent rights and privileges,to any resident who would refuse to pledge their loyalty to the state? I am not suggesting that a citizen must agree with the state but many, not all, of Israeli Arabs support Hamas, an organization whose charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel.
The rockets being fired from Gaza endanger Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel equally. All Israelis, save for a small minority of the ultra-orthodox, must serve in the Israeli army. Why shouldn't every citizen of Israel be required to serve? Isn't protecting your country a primary responsibility of every citizen. ( and yes, as an orthodox woman, I think every Jew should serve as well.)

mathewneville Author Profile Page:

Israel's Rationale for Murder ??????????

After unearthing their country's declassified archives, honest Israeli scholars have pointed to an Israeli campaign of rape, murder, and ethnic cleansing that entered full swing in 1947.

Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, said to a colleague shortly after Israel's expulsion of 750,000 Palestinians, "They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?"
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article21992.htm

momsablogger Author Profile Page:

One would think that the Almighty should have foreseen that so tiny a piece of real estate would never have accommodated the numbers of descendants promised to Abraham! At bottom is that biblical "gift" -- one so pathetically inadequate to its prophetic destiny that the way the Jewish "sages" get around the problem is by saying that Jerusalem will expand to cover all of Israel and Israel, in turn, will expand to cover the entire earth (in the days of "Moshiach"). Where this will leave the rest of the world's inhabitants is not addressed, since -- as one Chasidic rabbi explained -- "the literature is oriented inward." To say the least. Why anyone who has read the Bible is surprised at Israel's attempts at exclusivity boggles the mind. It is that so-called "sacred" book that lies at the bottom of all the hatred and intolerance.

In the last analysis, which is worse: Arabs who say (rather futilely) that they'd like to push Israel into the sea or Israeli mobs yelling "Death to Arabs"?

ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

Why has my comment on Fareed Zakaria's article not been posted yet. I posted it a half hour ago, got a message that it would have to be approved by the blog master or something. There was no obscenity in it. Another post of mine appeared immediately
What gives?

owldog Author Profile Page:

RE: groucho42

All points you mention about Arab discrimination against Jews occurred around, or after, 1948. It was not anti-semitism per se, but it was direct retaliation for Jewish Zionist ethnic cleansing of mostly unarmed Palestine indigenous people from their ancestral committed by Zionists at the time, a wholesale real estate theft, based on scripture of ancient mythology.

Unfortunately, this theft was supported by almost all Jews in the diaspora, as a reaction to the holocaust, and a way of supporting their mythological sense of superiority as God's chosen people, endowed to create a religious State on this land.

Before Revisionist Zionism of the 1920's, and especially before the Arab cleansing of Palestine in the 1947-48, these Arab countries historically treated Jews as brothers, better than Christians did, also based on ancient scriptural mythology.

I invite you to read "The Iron Wall" by Avi Shlaim, an Iraqi Jew whose wealthy family was expelled from Iraq after 1948 after living there in peace for centuries. They moved to Israel and he served in the IDF.

mathewneville Author Profile Page:

Does anyone still wonder why the US & the UK were/are all for a "War on Islam" ????

Is it because the number of Jewish lawmakers worldwide is at a record high -- but who's counting ????

United States in third place worldwide for the number of Jewish legislators, after Israel and Britain !!!!!!!

According to the ICJP, there are 246 Jewish legislators worldwide (excluding Israel), up from 208 in 2005 - an increase of about 18 percent. This is the highest number recorded since the organization was established in 1988.

http://tinyurl.com/bn5aed


ThoughtfulTed Author Profile Page:

jfjromey :

Just returned from a fact-finding trip to the Middle East.

Blah, blah, blah, etc., etc., etc.

JFAR
US Army, Ret
Politico-Military Analyst

____________________________________________

I think you wasted your time and money. You didn't find any facts at all, did you?
LOL

newageblues Author Profile Page:

kevin 1231 says "I wonder what the jewish reaction will be if other countries decide to expel Jews from their country." Rightwing Israelis, the ones we both want to rein in, they would be ecstatic, Kevin. If that happened, I think Israeli public opinion would turn even harder to the right than it has already done.

wallysworld Author Profile Page:

What's the big deal? Israel, like South Africa was, is an apartheid state (though I don't recall the the apartheid government using white phosphorous to kill and maim civilians).

But then, the Chosen People deserve some perks.

Don't they?

newageblues Author Profile Page:

shilotoren: Forcing non-religious and non-orthodox Jews to be married by Orthodox rabbis is obviously theocratic and an abomination.

What kind of stunt are you trying to pull over my comment about Blue Laws? You say "As for the Blue Laws, go look it up beofre you comment (since that is what I did) Parts on New Jersey enforce no commerce laws on Sunday as well as in Texas". OK, pay attention this time, what I said was (caps added): "Sure, I heard of Blue Laws, but MOST are gone in the US and MOST of the remaining ones apply only to alcohol." Perfectly accurate statement, and actually I did look it up before I wrote about it.

Your comment on sodomy laws in the US doesn't bear scrutiny either. There are still some state laws on the books but they were invalidated by the 2003 Supreme Court 6-3 decision in Lawrence v Texas.

Now you owe me three retractions.

owldog Author Profile Page:

Well, at least they are finally being honest about it. The Jewish spin media in this country is usually more insidious. At least I won't have my Jewish friends and acquaintances telling me how hospitable Israel is to non-Jews and Arabs, especially those friends and acquaintances who claim having "been to Israel" (on a tour bus) gives them the authority to declare such hogwash.

Either they make this one country, a United States of Israel with Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights, east Jerusalem, etc. with stronger local rule - or - they have the elusive, implausible "two state solution."

Trading the citizenship of Arabs for giving them their own State in the West Bank seems like a politically popular trade-off, but I doubt if the Fundamentalist Jewish settlers will buy into it. They want it all, and would probably start a civil war to keep it all.

Keeping it all and expelling the Arabs? Well, that would make the Jewish people in Israel, and their supporters in the diaspora, a people who inherited the evil of their former oppressors, Nazi Germany and Russia.

outragex Author Profile Page:

If Israel doesn't find some equitable way to resolve its population bomb here is what I forsee:
-US universities and pension funds being pressured to divest Israeli investments
-US companies and mutual funds offering Israel free investment options
-growing pressure on congress to reduce or attach strings to how US aid is used
-boycotts of some Israeli products

Isreael need to face its problems and act like a western democracy, or it will become the new South Africa during apartheid. Isreal will lose its national soul if if continues on this self-defeating path.

Many bloggers write of a double standard when Israel is compared to Arab dictatorships. I see their point except I expect a higher standard from a western-style democracy, and a home for so many Jews (the religion that taught compassion to the world).

May God bless everyone, no exceptions, including Israeli Jew, Israeli Palestinian, and Israeli Christian.

mathewneville Author Profile Page:

Mr. Zakaria MSM's most blatant lie is/was that the President of Iran supposedly said about "wiping Israel off the map" and you haver never questioned it when it is well know that President Ahmadinejad's comment referred to the Regime presently in Israel, that it needed to Disappear.

No Mr.Zakaria like 97% of MSM hacks never questions this "conveniently lost in trsanslation" propaganda which after YEARS still receives constant repetition.

Mr. Zakaria will allow Americans to see and hear neocon American Jewish/Zionists lie , cheat and spin in every way at every opportunity and never be contradicted---- its as if to contradict or correct any Israeli statement or policy would be antisemitic !!!

Zombiefied Americans will once again believe as they did with Saddam that we have to bomb the Arabs or Iranians over there before they come over here !!!!!.

We are watching the whole Iran "thing" being orchestrated like the Iraq invasion and can wonder if it is only coincidental that Israel benefits once again.

Oh yes the Knesset !!!! Arab parties ( 2009 )were banned yet again and 20% of the Arab Israeli Population get to have 4 seats out of 120 AGAIN ??
http://tinyurl.com/j37f

spidy99 Author Profile Page:

Israel is at best a theocracy disguised as a democracy, at worst it is a fascist state and operates on a fascist ideology, the only reason it has been able to survive for 60 years is due to the Western guilt over holocaust and a desire to keep Jews away in a distant land.

Now keep in mind that Arabs and/or Palestinians are not the ones responsible for the holocaust or killing of 6 million Jews or centuries of persecution by the Christian West, but they must pay the price for Western intolerance of Jews that even continues today.

Just think why is it that the Western elites resettled Jews thousands of miles away in a hostile land when they could have easily re-settled them in the West, the answer is that they don't want a large number of Jews living amongst them. They do tolerate a small number of Jews scattered in various Western countries but they will never allow Jews to have a country of their own in the West. Thus the creation of the state of Israel, which West will continue to support to ensure that those Jews are kept thousands of miles away.

Anti-semitism is alive and well today, thanks in large part to the Western policies.

kevin1231 Author Profile Page:

I wonder what the jewish reaction will be if other countries decide to expel Jews from their country. Anti-semitism seems more and more legitimate response. Israel should be condemned by all as a pariah state.

groucho42 Author Profile Page:

The US requires loyalty of all its citizens, yet Fareed Zakaria (“Israel’s existential dilemma”), as usual, says Israel doesn’t have the same right as other countries have. The local Arabs, through the Arab Higher Committee, rejected Israel’s existence in 1948 and they continue to do so not only through Fatah and Hamas, but through the Israeli-Arab parties. They reject National Service (not military, social service) because it would make their kids “feel Israeli”. They openly support people calling for Israel’s destruction. Yet Israel should do nothing?

Then Zakaria talks about how ‘right-wing’ it is to “disenfranchise” people who say Israel shouldn’t exist my moving the border to let them be in the 2nd Palestinian majority nation (Jordan’s the first, on 80% on British Palestine). Don’t forget that the left-wing Geneva Accord suggested the same thing.

Zakaria needs to be honest about not just how the Arab minority in Israel feels and is treated. He must discuss the 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands. While Israel has the same percentage of Arabs now as it did in 1949, the Arabs have ethnically cleansed almost every single Jew. Jordan says Jews can’t be citizens. The Palestinian Authority says it’s a death penalty crime to even sell land to Jews.

Let’s see Mr. Zakaria take an honest and full look at the issue. If, of course, he’s ok with going against the views of jihad and being labeled an apostate by his fellow Muslims.

vjg3 Author Profile Page:

Isn't it true that there have been numerous chance for Palestinian Muslims to have their own state (another intolerant 58th Islamic republic of the world) but they have refused all peace agreements- including the Clinton peace initiative.

Is not it true that most Muslims of the world want Israel wiped off the map? Is not it true that Hamas has been accused of killing its own civilians in the recent war and stealing food aid meant for Palestine civilians?

fghawi Author Profile Page:

On top of being a colonial, expansionist state, Israel's legal segregation against its minority population is just as horrific as that seen in Germany, South Africa etc...

Democracies vote governments that become the leaders of the entire population and not leaders of their respective parties. I am truly glad that Lieberman's party won this many seats because this exposes Israel's racist nature. It went from being a racist state to a racist culture.

freepost Author Profile Page:

Wow! The anti-Semitic propaganda in this forum is astounding though not surprising. It's funny how these folks "rally" to defend the rights of Arabs living in Israel - who incidentally have higher standards of living and better access to medical care than nearly any other Arab country - but fail to even acknowledge the flourishing Jewish communities that once exisited in Arab countries such as Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran etc. which were destroyed and the population ethnically cleansed back in the 1940's and 1950's.

The fundamental distinction is that Israel absorbed these 750,000 immigrants who were forced to flee their homes while the Arabs have done nothing for the 600,000 displaced "Palestinians" and their descendants other than using them as tools in which to try to destroy Israel.

Calling Israelis "Nazis" is another farce that you anti-Semites use as doublespeak. The reality is that the Arab world embraces Nazism - one of the number one best selling books is Mein Kampf, the Muslim Brotherhood which has inspired Wahabism and other fundamentalist Muslim movements is based on Nazism, and many Muslims conspired with the Nazis in WWII including the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

I'll bet most folks on this forum are 9-11 conspiracists and crackpots too.

Seig Heil you bunch of loons!

dmauro49 Author Profile Page:

Why am I helping pay for this?! If the Israelis want to go off the deep end, they can do it on their own dime.

jfjromey Author Profile Page:


Just returned from a fact-finding trip to the Middle East.

In context of stated, long-standing US bipartisan Mideast policy goals, Gaza is a manifestation of US-sponsored Israeli long-term expansion strategy beyond its borders and that of occupied territories—to include part or all of Lebanon and possibly beyond.

Based on multiple precedents of Israeli colonial aggression in the sub-region, Gaza should be seen as a planned dress rehearsal confirming US complicity and total exceptional support, and embracing long-stated Zionist political goals which for years have been incorporated in and helped shape US strategic regional goals. These extend to the Central and Southern Asian regions, including Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, as well as the Horn of Africa, South Sudan, and Darfur.

Nothing short of an unlikely major long-term international intervention led by the United States to reshape Israel and Palestine into a multiethnic state can be expected to resolve a situation which has grown to threatens regional and global stability—and extends much beyond the Middle East “Problem."

JFAR
US Army, Ret
Politico-Military Analyst

vjg3 Author Profile Page:

Here we have another so-called "moderate" educated American Muslim railing against a small Jewish state surrounded by Muslims from all sides who have vowed to wipe it off the map.

These Muslims inside Israel are much better off than Muslims outside; and certainly much better off than any Jews living in those 57 intolerant Islamic states. Can you name any Muslim state with more than 5 percent of Jews living in it? 4%? 3%?

Perhaps Zakaria would be taken more seriously along with CAIR and other American Muslims, if they talked about how non-Muslims are treated in Muslim states.Most of these Muslim nations do not even have 10 percent of non-Muslims or even 5 percent. Mostly they can not have their places of worship. And they have to live in a country that openly says that Islam is the supreme religion in this country.

How would Zakaria feel if the US changed its name to Christian Republic of USA?

deputytothelord Author Profile Page:

Zakria has pointed out Israel's population problem in a courageous manner.Actually rulers of Israel have forgoten their own history.They do not remember that they have always won on the basis of their love for justice and knowledge not raw power which in terms of history is transitory.

Hameed Naz

shilotoren Author Profile Page:

Sorry, no retrtaction about Israel being a theocracy. Religious issues are a matter of the various organized religions (eg. Moslems have their own clergy as do each of the Christian denominations). Reform and Conservative are considered Jewish and as such must comply with the Halacha, meaning the whole matter is intra-Jewish and not relevant to the charge that Israel is a theocracy. You had better bone up on the facts before you venture comment on the subject.

Hopefully the issue of civil unions will be solved by the next government, and if Liberman is part of it the chances will improve.

As for the Blue Laws, go look it up beofre you comment (since that is what I did) Parts on New Jersey enforce no commerce laws on Sunday as well as in Texas. Dare say, is sodomy still illegal in the States. In Israel same-sex unions are legit (though still no civil unions, see above). In short, investigate the issue and perhaps then you retract?

brux1 Author Profile Page:

I fear that the only unclear issue is how openly Israel will move from being an apartheid state to a genocidal state. In terms of German history it's ca. 1934 in Israel. Next stops: 1935 (open discrimination laws against unwanted minorities), 1938 (open violence against these minorities), 1943 (extermination?).

If Jews accept to relive history (only this time from the other side), the West should not fall into the same trap.

mathewneville Author Profile Page:

There has been over 60 years of planned continual ethnic cleansing carried out by Jews against the Palestinians and Mr.Zakaria needs to ask if Israeli Arabs feel threatened.

Yes Mr.Zakaria they feel threatened 24/7 as their basic human rights are continually being taken away and their homes destroyed and "confiscated" etc. etc. !!!!!!

Mr Zakaria 1.3 MILLION Israeli Arabs are treated as second class citizens --- that is 20% of "Israel" that is desperately against the killing in Gaza and elsewhere !!!!!!!!!!

Mr.Zakaria the Israeli Arabs are expected to support "Israel" as their brothers and sisters mothers and fathers were/are viciously attacked ,killed ,injured ,traumatized in Gaza and elsewhere by the Israeli military and settlers for over 60 years !!!!!!

The good news is that many many Jews are ashamed of the behavior of the Israeli Jewish Military the 4th strongest in the World but the bad news is that their numbers are few and their protests are never see in the Main Stream Media !!!!
http://tinyurl.com/a9n25r

Palm Beach Post Letters to the Editor

Monday, January 12, 2009

Israel did not negotiate the recent Gaza cease-fire in good faith. If so, Israel would have appreciated the almost complete elimination of attacks, from an average of 300 in May to less than 10. On Nov. 6, an Israeli incursion into Gaza killed six Palestinians and effectively destroyed the cease-fire.

During the cease-fire, Israel agreed to open Gaza crossings for up to 500 trucks a month. Israel allowed less than 90 a month. Hamas prisoners held by administrative decree in Israeli prisons were not released. Israel continued its West Bank raids, targeted assassinations, and imprisonments. Forty-nine Palestinians were killed during this period. No Israeli was killed.

To demonstrate the hypocrisy of the Israeli position, consider that the supposed goal of "stopping rockets" has resulted in destroying the university, the Parliament and Interior Ministry and other government buildings, mosques, a United Nations training center and homes. The objective is quite clear - to erase any symbol of the elected Hamas government and bring about a regime change. Evidently, the economic strangulation of Gaza was not producing results quickly enough.

As an American and a Jew, I deplore the complicity of the United States in this crime. It is U.S.-contributed planes and missiles that are feeding this barbarity. And yet our representative at the U.N. blocks a resolution to stop killing. The massacre of Palestinians in Gaza by the Israeli military is unjustified and immoral.

EDWARD CHALOM


IowaLad Author Profile Page:

The so-called 'State of Israel" predicated on nothing else but insidious ultranationalist Zionazi ideology and Biblical hooha is simply a geopolitical farce. The San Remo Conference, 1920, proposed a solution for the already convoluted Palestinian territory, then the British Mandate, by calling Palestine a "Jewish home land" but giving, in that process, full equal rights, liberty and justice to the majority demographic incliuding Christian, Orthodox and Muslim Palestinians. Later, Sweden's UN Representative, the Count Folk Bernadotte, correctly proposed making Jerusalem and "open city" under international authority, for that he and his aide were assassinated by the Lehi Group, a militant faction of the equally militant Stern Gang. In 1947/48 the US wing of the Zionist lobby threatened to swing over to the Soviet side during that Cold War time, thus influencing Truman to side with them. Can you imagine having the Zionist Jewish lobby as Soviet sponsors? Skunks breed more skunks.

danieldeagler Author Profile Page:

It doesn't look good. The problems are too many, too deep, too intractable. Even the most extreme of solutions from the daydreams of Benjamin Netanyahu, like expelling the Arabs from "Eretz Israel" assuming it were even possible, would require Israel to forfeit its soul.
There are many Israelis who would choose to win at any cost, and I can not say that I blame them. I can't imagine that we would do any less. But Israel, as unfair as it is, more than any other nation on earth lives at the good will and the sufferance of other actors. The two most important are the Diaspora and the United States government. Lose this support and the game will really be over.
Remember there was a Kingdom of Jerusalem, founded by the crusaders, that lasted nearly a hundred years. That's a long time in the life of a human being. It's now little more than a historical footnote.

aCitizen3 Author Profile Page:

Fareed-bhai,

This is where you get into big, big trouble.

Because you are criticizing the Israeli govt and some aspects of its society - and even Jimmy Carter cannot do that - not to speak of the two professors from University of Chicago! Be ready to be treated as a muslim extremist - all kinds of horrible claims will be made about your indian background, child marriages in islam and so on.

So be warned. Only the israelis can change this dance of death that their govt (and society) has led them to. The belief that you can bomb your neighbors (lebanon 2006, gaza 2009) and expect to live in peace is not something that makes sense to anyone. But because of the complexities of history, no one is allowed to say this publically.

schumann-bonn Author Profile Page:

As an American citizen who was born and grew up in NAZI Germany I fully understand the trauma suffered by Jews throughout the world, even if they were not directly effected by the Holocaust. That trauma explains the calls of "Never Again" and the conviction many Jews that they can trust nobody but themselves. Only the disaster inflicted upon Jews during the NAZI regime allowed the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state. Had the entire British Palestine Protectorate been released into statehood in 1948, with equal rights for all religions, the situation could well be different today. Did anybody really expect the Arabs to be happy about having to give up a sizable portion of their land to a Jewish State? Who can blame the Arabs, who were not asked, to try to reclaim their land? Israel prevailed, and we should all be glad that they did. But what is left of the Israel of 1948? The Israel of the Kibutz? What remains of the liberal mainstream that ruled Israel for so many years? Jewish terror groups harassed the Arabs and British for many years until statehood was achieved. Once that goal was reached, and once the Arabs were defeated in the first of many conflicts, the terrorists were shunted aside and the liberal Labor Party ruled the country. But 60 years of almost constant conflict, mostly initiated by Arab states and later by dispossessed Palestinians, have radicalized the Israelis. And now the descendants of the Jewish terrorists are ruling the country, together with Russian immigrants who are largely orthodox and suffering from centuries of Progroms. At least two of Israel's neighbors have made peace with the Jewish State. One (Lebanon) is of no consequence, and Syria could probably be brought to reason. But the Palestinian wound continues to fester and is getting worse. Sad to say, Israel keep pouring salt into the wound.
And now we have arrived at a point where reconciliation seems to be impossible. One thing is certain: Military strikes against Palestinian terrorists are just as ineffective as British efforts were more than 60 years ago to stop Jewish terrorists. These prevailed in the long run. A lesson for today?

dinkarvimala Author Profile Page:

As I have repeatedly said in my letters to editors of various newspapers over the years, the basic problem with Israel is wrong geography. Just because the ancestors of some Jews lived in Palestine 15 or 16 centuries before does not legitimise the demand of Israelis for a homeland in Palestine. Think of it! Where were our ancestors 1500 or 2000 years ago? Would that justify our claimimg back those habitats now occupied by different people? By that logic it will be impossible to have peace in the world since people have always moved from one land to another. If "holocaust" was the moral justification for awarding Jews their own homeland, it should have been carved out of land of guilty parties. Better still, since the nations that call themselves "Western Civilization" have occupied the most productive lands all over the world fanning out from little Europe, they should not find it difficult to carve out a suitable piece of territory for Israeli homeland, preferably in an island! Why not for example, Tasmania which has an area of 26000 square miles and a population of only half a million? Why compel 6 million Jews to live in a sea of hostlity in the Middle East in a narrow space of 8000 square miles, crowding out an equal number of Palestinians who are compelled to live in less than 1900 square miles, less than one fifth of pre-1948 Palestine? It should be obvious this arrangement together with right to any Jew all over the world to become citizen of Israel under Israeli constitution is bound to perpetuate revanchist sentiments amongst Palestinians and guarantee permanent tension in Middle East.

mike-sey Author Profile Page:

Bin Laden's genius has been to unleash and expose the latent paranoia and brutal bigotry in U.S. and Israeli society with a single one-off and lucky strike.

As fear takes over, common sense and decency goes out the window. Repression increases, leaving little room for moderation and forcing ever greater push -back.

It is more evident by the day that the so-called existential threat to Israel and democracy comes from the Israelis and the right within America and other western powers themselves. I imagine Mr. Bin Laden is startled at how successful he has been.

m_rabi Author Profile Page:

Israel is destroying itself by having no leaders with strategic vision, Israel current leaders are occupied only by stealing more land and killing more civilians and small babies.
Countires and powerful nations can not survive for lonf that way.

airheads Author Profile Page:

This "opinion" piece is jaw-droppingly appalling, a piece of rhetoric one has come to expect from left-wing propagandists. I thought Mr. Zakaria was much, much smarter than this article portends. When Israel under Ehud Barak was ready to create the two-state solution, Yassir said "Nosir." When Israeli sends in humanitarian aid to Gazans who act less than human, what do we hear from people like Mr. Zakaria? Nothing. And by the way, Mr. Zakaria, Labor did NOT establish the State of Israel. It was the Haganah and other military splinter groups who clawed their way to their own destiny, overcoming a couple of hundred million Arabs and Muslims who, right after the loss of 6 million Jews, wanted to see the rest of the world evaporate even more of the Jewish faith. Doesn't it seem strange to you, Mr. Zakaria, that as many as 11 Arab citizens of Israel have sat in the Knesset voicing their almost always negative opinions of the Jewish state? How many Jews sit in the parliements or participate in the body politick of Arab and Muslim nations? I date you to name just ONE! MK Bishara is quoted in your missive as saying "his nation." What nation? Can he or anyone on the planet actually name the "nation" that he perceives to own? Did it have a president, premier, king, prime minister, or Head Thug? And where is its constitution? Oh, I forgot. The Palestinians only have charters which urge the destruction of Israel so that part of the world will be rid of "apes and pigs." Naturally, you and practically all of CNN buy into that miserable notion.

Until this article, Mr. Zakaria, I thought you were a decent, humane and thoughtful fellow. You now have shown the same symptons that are being displayed across Europe, Latin America, Australia and even the United States. It doesn't look good on you, and neither does this opinion piece. In fact, it makes you appear as though you harbor some sort of inner disdain for Israelis who for the first time in thousands of years finally have a place to call home. If that ceases to exist, then for certain the world has lost its collective mind.

newageblues Author Profile Page:

shilotoren is clearly wrong when he says "Israel is no more a theocracy than the USA (ever hear of Blue Laws)". Sure, I heard of Blue Laws, but most are gone in the US and most of the remaining ones apply only to alcohol. And Israel doesn't just have blue laws, they have a ban on Israeli civil marriages, for crying out loud, and it's even worse than that, there's also a ban on Conservative and Reform rabbis performing marriages. How about a retraction, shilotoren?

wassavi Author Profile Page:

As usual, you fail to tell the whole story. But rather than wasting my time explaining to others how you've blatantly misrepresented the issue (e.g. how there is a justifiable fear that israel's will not be allowed to live freely, if live at all, in israel if there are enough arabs to destroy the jewish people in israel from within) I will say that I have seen you time and again give interviews and NEVER call out the person you're interviewing for their blatant lies or misrepresentations.

Maybe it's for the money? Perhaps CNN's audience wouldn't watch if you actually did your job and corrected the misrepresentations that use your show to spout their lies? Whatever the case may be, you have no credibility.

SnagIt Author Profile Page:

In electoral campaigns, words speak louder than actions...
Demographics in the Arab world are alarming to any state not only Israel. Many Arab leaders rely on the consistently and dramatically growing number of the Islamic nation to rule the world and have the GOLBAL Muslim nation (AL OUMMAT) unified. Israel, like any other country should be alarmed to the demographics shifts. e.g., in Lebanon, the government is opposing giving the Palestinian refugees citizenship because the majority of them are Muslim Sunnis and they would unbalance the fragile religious-political equilibrium they established in a small country.

Speaking of existence in an electoral campaign is one thing, and being able to do it, is another thing. Mr. Zakaria article showed Libermann as a tyrant while every body knows that the Israelis right wing is losing ground and the country is shifting to the left slowly but steadily. What Mr. Zakaria did not mention in his article is that Israel is a minority a minority in the Arab world where Arab leaders fuel their leaderships (for years) by raising the old classical slogan "Death to America" and "Death to Israel" and all of that is to be elected. Arabs tried the war, and they lost; Israeli tried the war and they lost. Bottom line, they raise empty slogans simply to get elected. If the Arab leaders are allowed to it (since you did not mention them) then Libermann should be allowed to say whatever he needs to get him elected.

joeljournal Author Profile Page:

I am disappointed by this article, which eschews accuracy in favor of alarmist conclusions. The issue of Israel's Arab citizens is complex, and requires us to consider not only the informal discrimination (as opposed to formal, a distinction not made clearly enough in the piece) experienced by Arabs but also the remedial measures Israel has taken. The accusation that Israel's Arabs are a "fifth column" is disturbing but must also be considered in light of the recent participation of Israeli Arabs in terror attacks against their Jewish compatriots. I think that a journalist and writer like Zakaria could have done far better than to use the third-place finish of a far-right party to cast Israel as beyond the democratic pale. France, after all, saw nearly one fifth of its voters choose Jean-Marie Le Pen for president in 2002--and other European countries have seen a similar surge in support for right-wing candidates as Muslim minorities have struggled to integrate. There are also a few cases--such as India, with which Zakaria is of course intimately familiar--in which wholesale transfers of population were undertaken; these are not examples to emulate but rather serve to place Zakaria's unfortunate distortion in context.

Finally, I must say that I hope this article was not timed to encourage the Obama administration to participate in the Durban II conference. If that is the case then Zakaria ought to be ashamed. I have long since stopped buying Newsweek because of its knee-jerk bias on various issues; I made an exception for this week's "Socialism" issue because I want to keep it as a keepsake, a reminder of how unhinged our national media became from reality in this difficult time.

mimelc Author Profile Page:

Lieberman is correct. The Muslim population in America is also not to be trusted as evidenced by the many acts of terrorism they have perpetrated against American property and people dating back to the '70s.
Eventually Europe will also feel the same.
Muslims only belong in Muslim countries as there they can kill to their hearts content without harming anyone but their "brothers"

noronhavivian Author Profile Page:

All over the world,it is the islamic adherent who has being saying he cannot live with those who do not believe in Islam.India was divided and Pakistan created.Kosovo is carved out of Serbia.In the Phillipines they are fighting for a muslim State in a muslim majority island.There is an ongoing movement for a muslim State in thiland.In Iraq the christians who have lived in those parts,much before Islam spread in the area, are being hounded out, under the gaze of the Americans.Similar is their fate in the Holy Land areas under muslim administration.Muslims were only a few hundred at the time of the formation of Israel are now a few million.At the rate they grow,each family has a minimum of 12/15 children,they will over-run the Israelis in numbers by the next decade and they will be the majority in Israel with known results.It is better the issue is settled today Tomorrow may be too late. Belguim and Holland better watch out.They cannot live in peace with others.

mathewneville Author Profile Page:

Since its creation in 1948 and before "Israel" claims the right to conquer new areas for the expansion of its colonization and to treat the people who had lived there for thousands of years like “redskins.”

Israel is not democratic and its 20% Arab population is without representation or consideration and the whole PAX Israeli-Americana has been shameful for years and years.

America calls the shots in the Middle East and all recent U.S Presidents and most Senators and Congressmen as an election pledge must "Support Israel" before being elected.

US Political candidates most of whom desperately need money for their campaigns look to what is called the Jewish vote ???

The "Jewish vote" is of course an American euphemism for Jewish Political Contributions !!!!!
The political contributions from the 2.5% Americans who are Jewish is the answer to any US candidate's dream and remember 40% of American Billionaires are Jewish and they are generous supporters of "Israel" and supporters of Politicians who support "Israel". !!!!!
AIPAC and similar U.S. Zionist organizations control these elected officials when it comes to supplying Israel with weapons and vetoing any and all U.N. resolutions attempting to stop outrageous Israeli violence as in Gaza recently .

Israel the only country that openly declares itself not bound by the resolutions of the UN and with undeclared borders has a hold on the US to veto 41 and counting UN Resolutions and support the violent attacks on Gaza recently.

23% of the World's population which is Islamic sees this as a War on Islam" !!!!!!

donaldsurr Author Profile Page:

Arnie 700, who identifies himself as an American Jew, pretty much says what many of us who are not Jewish, but well disposed toward our American Jewish community, feel as well. He can say it more comfortably than we can.

"It is also true that the Arab population will eventually out number the Jewish population and thus threaten the Jewishness of the State of Israel."

Demographic trends would seem to indicate that this will happen sometime in this century and some system other than Apartheid will have to be developed to deal with it. Jewish conscience in the Diaspora will insist on it. Best to think ahead to how that will be done.

shilotoren Author Profile Page:

It is disappointing to see the level of hysteria and hypocrisy in some of the posts here as well as the lack of accuracy in Mr. ZAKARIA'S BLOG. The rapidity in which some interpret Mr. Liberman's success in the latest Israeli general election in order to disparage Israel and her democracy is disturbing.

While Mr. Liberman is not my ideal for Israel's political system, he is not a racist nor his political party 'neo-nazi'. He is blatantly using the nationalist code-words to entice voters to support him, but on the whole they remain words only without much chance for implementation. The anger against the equally strident politicians of the nationalistic Arab parties is real as is the general distaste many voters feel towards sections of Arab population whose excesses they are asked to support. Nothing new here, and similar responses can be found in Europe and the USA expressed against minorities where unemployment, crime and large families are more common.

Liberman is not a racist because his attacks are not racially based but are rather directed against Arab nationalism as expressed some Arabs in Israel. Yisrael Bataynu even has a Druse candidate on its list who has become the fourth Druse to enter the Knesset this year. Liberman's argument is rather, if Israel's Arabs identify with Israel's enemies (and in isolated cases even assist Israel's enemies) then perhaps their citizenship should be examined and measures taken to revoke that citizenship. This is a matter of dual or conflicting loyalties and few are the Israel bashers who post here who have not suggested harsher measures against members of AIPAC for far milder "offences".

As for the hysteria, none of Liberman's proposals have the slightest chance of being approved by either the Knesset or the Supreme Court as Liberman knows all too well himself. Even his proposal of redrawing Israel's borders in order to incorporate Arab populated areas, such as Waadi Ara, in any future "palestinian state" is in doubt (a step that would little different from incorporating Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem into the same "palestinian state"). I would hope Mr. Zakaria is aware of this, and if not, I find this worrying indeed.

The hypocrisy of majority of the posts here are quite blatant. Israel is no more a theocracy than the USA (ever hear of Blue Laws) and many European states have their own churches (Anglican, Church of Sweden, etc). Certainly Israel is not similar to the Arab Moslem states that surround her where discrimination against minorities is a matter of policy. Few posters understand that if there are 1.3 million Arabs in Israel today then that means a growth rate of over 3.5% a year (one of the highest in the world) and a source of much of the poverty that Israel's Moslems experience, as well as a source of much of the friction. Claims of "Nazism" and racism border on the ludicrous, stem from antipathy and bigotry and in general do not merit rebuttal.

winfamly Author Profile Page:

As usual, most bloggers display gross ignorance and insane Jew hatred. It is risible to describe Zakaria's rant as an analysis. Lieberman's demand for loyalty applies to ultra-Orthodox Jews as well. The Israeli Arabs (and the Haredim) are disloyal parasites and have well earned the call for their disenfranchisement. The usual lying hate-mongers invert the truth and accuse Israel of all the wrongs that the Arabs in fact commit. Jews did not take land from the natives; they bought it at exorbitant prices and developed what the felaheen had been too stupid and lazy to do. And all the big mouths ignore that Israel can make its weapons, but stupidly chose to support the USA military-industrial complex. Unlike so many Mohammedan regimes, that the USA is propping up, Israel supports the USA and has never asked it to shed its blood for it. In fighting - by the will of its electorate - the enemies of democracy, Israel is supporting the USA and all freedom loving nations despite the hate and lies of terror supporters.

DardenCavalcade Author Profile Page:

When I began reading Zakaria's column a few years ago, a broad group of posters responded to him and each other. I am struck by how much that group has shrunk in size and narrowed in perspective.

Israel's experiment in liberal democracy may be coming to an end. It may be a only a few steps from becoming an authoritarian police state ruling on behalf of a privileged ethnic group. If so, that means it will be like all the Arab governments surrounding it. That means it will be exactly like both Palestinian governments.

In this century, the final chapter of Modern Israel's story will be written. There isn't any question, I believe, about what the end will be. The question is how high the flames in the region are going to rise.

I'm a nihilist; so, I expect the flames to reach the stratosphere and the peoples of the region never to recover.


timothy2me Author Profile Page:

Despite the efforts by radicals on both sides to deny the truth, they are all same people with the same distinct gene pool. They are all Palestinians, be they Jews, Christians or Muslims.

Forget the bogus claims about Khazars and forget the just as bogus claims that "Arabs" migrated into Palestine. That Palestinian gene pool predates Christianity, Khazars and Arabs.

JFredMugs Author Profile Page:

I am dying to hear what the sainted American president Obama will say about this in the future.

I'm pretty sure that much of his early support came from moneyed jews.

So, I expect a LOUD SILENCE.

hschm48031 Author Profile Page:

There can be no stronger evidence of the corruption of our system of electing representatives than their behavior regarding what is happening in Israel/Palestine. The failure by our President and Congress to condemn what is being done to the Palestinians effects our stance and behavior throughout the Muslim world and often beyond. The world needs our moral leadership and it is not getting it.

Farhad1 Author Profile Page:

Avigdor Lieberman's advocacy is very wrong. In the past history, we have seen such people for example like Hitler. And surely neither Europe nor America would support Israeli leader against their own creation of the UN's abjective, i.e. not violate democratic principles and prevent anything that might jeopardize the peace and security of the world. The point here is that no people shall be alienated from the face of earth think otherwise would be another world war, may be the end of all wars hence end of the world. As is the case, Israel should not alienate people and if Israel did that, next would be their neighbours rather than from interior. Is there a solution in this way of Israel's action unless all the people in the middle east except jews are expelled out of the region or killed by Israel. Could that be the solution to this dilemma, certainly not. It applies vice versa to Plestinians as well. The solution is peaceful co-existence and most importantly shared economic equality however one might get it. Farhad

jlashak Author Profile Page:

I AM A MEXICAN-JEW, AND VISIT FRECUENTLY ISRAEL, ONE OF MINE SONS , DID VOLUNTARILY THE ARMY, FOR TREE LARGE YAEARS BEFORE ENTERING THE UNIVERSITY,AND LATER HIS MBA IN THE HAIGHT PRAICED IPADE;A SECOND SON STUDIED FOR HIS SMIJA (TITLE)IN THE PRESTIGUS ISH-HATORA YESHIVA, IN FRONT OF THE KOTEL, AND ALL TREE OF US ,FEEL THE UNPLESEANT OF THESE ARABS, THEY DON¨T BELONG ANY MORE IN ISRAEL, LIBERMAN IS IN THE POINT ,LOYALTY OR GO OUT THE JEWISH COUNTRY, WE DON¨T AGREE WITH ZAKARIA, THE DRUSIM AND A LOT OF BEDUIMS WORK FOR ISRAEL , AND THE FEW CHRISTIANS THAT I KNOW ARE LOYAL TO ISRAEL, BUT THE MUSLIM ARABS ARE A QUINTA COLUMNA.

timothy2me Author Profile Page:

"These Ashkenazi Khazars have no real link to Palestine. Koestler wrote the truth before his very suspicious death."

An example of false history disproven by genetic science. Ashkenazi Jews are Palestinians.

ori_gonen Author Profile Page:

Thanks for a well written article, that exposes Israeli situation, desperately needed with all the shallow discussions in world media regarding Israel.
This is mainly a response to posted comments:

The Jewish side in Israel feels very intimidated by the ongoing misunderstanding and misjudgment of their situation in the world opinion, part of which causes us to become more hawkish and stubborn regarding efforts for negotiations and dealing with violence turned against Israel.

As an Israeli Jew who just voted for the "left side" of the map, who supports a two-state solution, it is still no surprise to me, after reading many of the comments above, how the "hawk right" in Israel won the majority of the voter.

More and more people refuse to understand the complexity of the situation, and of Israel's legitimacy of existence. Both peoples (Palestinians and Israelis) have a legitimacy over the land, but "unfortunately" they are intertwined one with the other, and a co-existence of two young and strong national movements results in a constant tension

Indeed there are some discrimination of Israeli Arab citizens (Israeli-Palestinian-Arabs...) in Israel, but on the whole they are true citizens of the state in any parameter, and get education, jobs, and what not. My first 20 years I lived near Arab towns, that by now grew & flourished. Yes, there were and will be some conflicts and confrontations, but most Israelis - Jews and Arabs, wish to continue living side by side in prosperity.

I will not delve into the subject, but it's my opinion shared by many, that this co-existence will not continue unless the 2-sides get their own home/place for national identity - i.e. 2 states.

arnie700 Author Profile Page:

I am an American Jew and used to be a 100% supporter of Israel. No longer can I be this supporter of a state that denies a large part of its population equal medical care, equal education, equal right to own land, and equal opportunity to serve in the military services.

Nor can I condon one of the strongest military machines in the world trampling and killing civilians in the name of security. It is also true that the Arab population will eventually out number the Jewish population and thus threaten the Jewishness of the State of Israel.

This is one area in which a UN mandated government, without alligence to Arab or Jewish views and policies would make sense. There must be equal treatment for Jews, Arabs, Christians, Muslims, non believers, and people of all faiths and cultural backgrounds. No Jewish, and no Arab, government is going to provide equal protection under the law. There is too much self interest for this to happen.

But we must stop what is likely to happen in the next few years. The expulsion of Arabs from Israel in the same way that the Jews were expuled from Germany, Austria, and other countries prior to and during WWII. Around he world we have to learn to live in peace or we will destry ourselves and no one is the winner.

usnr02 Author Profile Page:

There are too many reasons to list justifying why Israel has forfeited any right to exixt. Just take the deliberate attack on the USS Liberty, the slaughter of civilians at Qana (twice), and the murders of children in Gaza. Israel has forfeited any right to exist. It is so easy today to find the truth about those in Israel. Israel was founded by TERRORISM from Jews who came from Russia, Poland, and Eastern Europe. These Ashkenazi Khazars have no real link to Palestine. Koestler wrote the truth before his very suspicious death. It is all a big lie. Read Jack Bernstein's book on his experiences in Marxist Israel. He also suffered a strange and early death. The Israeli Khazars kill those who expose their lies.

timothy2me Author Profile Page:

Sixty years ago half a million Americans died to defeat Fascism. A Fascism that exterminated 6 million Jews.

What a cruel twist of history to see the US and Israel gradually mutate in to Fascist states.

johnbsmrk Author Profile Page:

Outside of the US, the state of Israel has steadily been losing the propaganda war because of its actions. The idea that in this wired age you can massacre hundreds of civilians with mass bombings of urban areas without it creating a massive international backlash is symptomatic of the alternate reality Israel seems to be moving into. There are even signs of fraying support in the US and it's hard to believe the new Obama administration is going to react as benignly to Israeli recklessness as the Bush administration. Imagine the impact this "reverse civil rights" action would have on opinion here and around the world. It would just serve to strengthen Hamas, Hezbollah and all the other anti Israeli movements. This is so obvious that it should hardly need stating but apparently it's beyond the comprehension of many Israelis. For the first time I'm starting to wonder if Israel can survive. A broken internal political system that is riddled with corruption, a significant Arab minority, pro Palestinian movements like Hezbollah that continue to grow stronger, and the emergence of Iran as regional Hegemon because of US incompetence all point to a changed world for Israel.

marketeck Author Profile Page:

It's so simple: As long as Israel in it's present form exists there cannot be peace in the Middle East and there will be more 9/11 in New York, Bus bombs in London and train bombs in Madrid. Get rid of Israel and within five years there will be international peace and security.

How to get rid of Israel peacefully? Stop U.S. aid, embargo Israel (it worked in South Africa) and have free elections for a one-state solution for all Israelis and Palestinians, (including the refugees in Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon).

If we don't do something like that we will end up with revolutionary governments in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and the Emirates. Then, o my gosh...

timothy2me Author Profile Page:

Israel has the most sophisticated and well-oiled propaganda machine the world has ever seen.

All one needs to do is read some of the posts here and on other opinion posting sites and that becomes evident.

jhough1 Author Profile Page:

What a warning about consequences of "sophisticated" calculations! We ruined relations with the Soviet Union in the 1970s to get Russian Jews (really maybe half non-Jews) to Israel because they were European and would vote for Labor against Likud. It is likely that Brezhnev would never have gone into Afghanistan if he thought he had anything to lose in relations with the US--and that decision is still playing out. And it is US that has been paying the subsidies for the housing of these Russians who assimilated all the worst thinking of the Communist world. The US has a lot of rethinking to do.

joeljay_2000 Author Profile Page:

I was talking to a fellow worker today about something that puzzles me but leads me to the conclusion that he’s probably right.

Should Israel or any other government step up to the plate and destroy the potential nuclear threat on, mainly Israel, from a distant neighbor, Iran? Because of his culture, education, and whatever else makes him him, he truly believes a knockout punch is needed. I told him that I think that would just postpone the problem and make things worse in the meantime (world opinion + ?). He disagrees and thinks it would teach the Iranians a lesson never to mess with the world and try to build an a-bomb. He might be right, but I doubt it.

But that’s not what puzzles me. I deeply wonder, “Would the Iranians drop this bomb on Israel knowing it would also kill many Palestinians as well as making the area inhabitable?” He thinks that they would do it in a minute and, knowing what I know, he’s probably right. How can you condone killing your own child for a mere indiscretion? It’s a different view of life from there.

Mutual destruction is supposed to deter the battle, not eliminate your enemy. Past history is telling me that to ignore the fact that my neighbors want to get rid of me would be foolish. They incite before crowds that this is Gods will.

I don’t have any idea what will be in the future. I assure you that anyone with the power to decide is not looking to me for advice. If Iran could be guaranteed that they would never be attacked then they should agree to stop bomb producing capabilities (and anything related to it). I doubt, though, that the USA would agree to that – they would then have to be satisfied with any leader that country has or who lives within its borders.

So, whoever does make the decision, I can just hope they’ve given it a lot more thought than I have.

Joel

GB_Bah Author Profile Page:

What a disgrace to the human race !

To even accept that a state be formed by gathering immigrants from all over the world (since the 1920's) and allow them to systematically kill or displace the indiginous people from their land to form a radical religious fanatic state ---now called Israel--- is a crime in its own right.

But then, to comtemplate allowing the state to expell its own citizens based on religon or race for any pretext is really a crime against humanity that should never be tolerated ... even if standing up for it means starting another world war.

It must be stopped. Even talking about it should be punishable by the rule of law !

Neal3 Author Profile Page:

As a disinterested American, I've always found it curious that Israel considers itself a democracy. Israel's treatment of its Arab minority seems similar to our treatment of African-Americans from the end of the civil war to today. The difference is African-Americans made steady progress toward equality while Israeli-Arabs seem to be losing ground.

I guess preserving the "Jewish" part of the state is what's most important to Israelis. I can't blame them, but they should admit they are prepared to become an oppressive theocracy to preserve their Jewish culture. It's funny the things that God demands of his chosen people. Another one of God's cruel tricks? Let's hope they have the patience of Job. I don't remember Job stealing from his neighbors when the devil took all his posessions and killed his family.

gary4books Author Profile Page:

After the end to war and when there is "peace" Israel will deal with the Arabs. It is likely that they will share education and work together for a very strong and prosperous society. Now is the time to start that process with the Arab citizens of Israel. They will be the first and one can hope that they will be the best examples of this new cooperation and prosperity.

yishai_613 Author Profile Page:

Seytom1,

There will onlybe a 1-state solution; Israel. The Arabs, including the "Israeli" Arabs (but not neccessarily the Druze, who are still loyal to us and we should be loyal back) will have to have theirs elsewhere.

The simple fact is that the Philistines could have had a state in peace, but chose war on MANY occasions- INSTEAD:

The Philistines would have had a state IN PEACE in 1937 with the Peel Plan, but they violently rejected it.

They would have had a state IN PEACE in 1939 with the MacDonald White Paper, but they violently rejected it (and Jews would have even been restricted from BUYING land from Arabs).

They would have had a state IN PEACE in 1948 with UN 181, but they violently rejected it (and actually claimed that the UN had no such mandate!).

They could have had a state IN PEACE in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza from 1948-1967 without any Jews- because the Arabs had ethnically cleansed every last one; but they violently rejected it. In fact, that's exactly when they established Fatah (1959) and the PLO (1964).

They could have had a state IN PEACE after 1967, but instead, the entire Arab world issued the Khartoum Resolutions:

A. No peace with Israel
B. No recognition of Israel
C. No negotiations with Israel

They would have had a state IN PEACE in 2000 with the Oslo Accords, but they violently rejected it- as always.

The Arabs will just have to learn to "make do" with their own 99.9% of the Middle East- including all of the oil, and stop trying to steal OUR tiny 1/10th of 1% without oil. The Philistines won't have a state here in Israel, and if they don't stop their violence, they won't even exist here anymore. They will be gone.

And THEN there will be peace.

Seytom1 Author Profile Page:

Israel may be preparing itself to discover whether there are any limits to American support. The time for a two-state solution may be passing---do Israelis really think the 1 1/2 state solution can exist in perpetuity?

yishai_613 Author Profile Page:

"Israeli" Arabs are siding with Israel's enemies- often openly.

We will treat them accordingly.

1humanity Author Profile Page:

Now that Israelis have voted for Likud party, Shas party and Lieberman party, it is time to boycott them, put them in a small area with no access to outside, no food, no medicine, no schools, etc., and bomb all their infrastructures, hospitals women and children, so that they will learn a lesson not to vote for these terrorist parties anymore!
Sounds familiar!?

1humanity Author Profile Page:

Here is how the inhumane Israeli regime and its agents in the US define "democracy":

Rule #1: In the Middle East, it is always the Palestinians that attack first, and it's always Israel who defends itself. This is called "retaliation".

Rule #2: The Palestinians are not allowed to kill Israelis. This is called "terrorism".

Rule #3: Israel has the right to kill Palestinian civilians; this is called "self-defense", or "collateral damage".

Rule #4: When Israel kills too many Palestinian civilians, the Western world calls for restraint. This is called the "reaction of the international community".

Rule #5: Palestinians do not have the right to capture Israeli military, not even 1 or 2.

Rule #6 : Israel has the right to capture as many Palestinians as they want (around 10,000 to date being held without trial). There is no limit; there is no need for proof of guilt or trial. All that is needed is the magic word: "terrorism".

Rule #7: When you say "Hamas", always be sure to add "supported by Hezbollah, Syria and Iran".

Rule #8: When you say " Israel", never say "supported by the USA, the UK, European countries and even some Arab regimes", for people (God forbid) might believe this is not an equal conflict.

Rule #9: When it comes to Israel, don't mention the words "occupied", " territories", "UN resolutions", "Geneva conventions". This could distress the audience of Fox, CNN, WP, etc.

Rule #10: Israelis speak better English than Arabs. This is why we let them speak out as much as possible, so that they can explain rules 1 through 9. This is called "neutral journalism". (We see it all the time in WP!)

Rule #11: If you don't agree with these rules or if you favor the Palestinian side over the Israeli side, you must be a very dangerous anti-Semite. You may even have to make a public apology if you express your honest opinion.

1humanity Author Profile Page:

The extremist and Fundamentalist Israeli Jews just don't get it, do they? If they want one state solution, then everyone should have the same rights and privileges including voting rights (I am sure this won't be acceptable to them). If not, then the Palestinians should have their own sovereign state with complete autonomy.
Pick one you bigoted racists - you can't have your cake and eat it too, with the entire world against it. Rather than burying your bone-heads in the sands of the occupied lands, look into the public opinions of the entire world about Israel and how much its inhumane actions are hated in the ENTIRE WORLD.

fzdybel Author Profile Page:

Read an account of the riots in Akko this last October, from the Jewish Journal, no less:

http://www.jewishjournal.com/israel/article/akko_riots_expose_israels_arab_jewish_tinderbox_20081013/

See, the riots started when this Arab guy tried to drive his car back to his own home on Yom Kippur.

This, and Gaza, is the kind of crapola you get when you allow religious states - Jewish states, Islamic states, Christian states, whatever - to come into the world. It legalizes and gives license to religious bigotry and apartheid. And always there is the fear that eventually one is going to get as good as one has given, leading to a spiral of repression.
It's time the Middle East had some adult supervision. The entirety of Judea should be ruled as a United Nations mandate, bound to a constitution that the citizens are powerless to alter.

dsrobins Author Profile Page:

It is almost touchingly naive that Zakaria finds it necessary to ask if Israeli Arabs are threatened by the extreme rightward shift in Israeli politics. Of course they are. They have in fact been threatened ever since the foundation of the state in 1948 and the pressure has intensified every year since then. We now have Yisrael Beytenu, a true neo-Nazi party led by a thug named Avigdor Lieberman. Make no mistake, he and his party propose precisely the same "Final Solution" for Israel's native Arab population that Adolph Hitler proposed and implemented for European Jews. Another Holocaust has already begun. The world witnessed the most recent episode in Gaza in December and January, but something far worse awaits. The racist state of Israel is about to follow Hitler in provoking another horrific conflict which will consume the lives of millions of innocents. America must now allow itself to become an accomplice in this looming tragedy.

PostGlobal is an interactive conversation on global issues moderated by Newsweek International Editor Fareed Zakaria and David Ignatius of The Washington Post. It is produced jointly by Newsweek and washingtonpost.com, as is On Faith, a conversation on religion. Please send us your comments, questions and suggestions.