The western world is always pointing out that democracy and democratic values are only viable options for a civilised society. This globaly accepted definition is mostly ignored by the same western democracies sometimes in the name of national interests or by branding a dictatorship as a necessary evil. The segments of society in developing democracies which are working to further the cause against enormous hurdles are often let down by the Governemnts specially when every little bit of encouragement is vital. Here is a news item published in "NEWS" today in Pakistan:
"
Citizens meet non-PCO Judges
Tuesday, November 27, 2007
By our correspondent

Karachi

Judges of the Sind High Court (SHC) who did not take oath under the PCO were surprised when they gathered for a dinner at one of their colleague’s home, where a large number of ordinary citizens - students, businessmen, journalists and others — were awaiting them with flowers.

This meeting was part of a campaign to let the judges know that the people of this country stand by them and are proud of their principled stand. The citizen’s delegation adorned the entrance of the judge’s residence with rose petals. As each judge entered, he was presented with a bouquet of flowers on behalf of the people.

Members of the delegation were receiving messages from all over Karachi as well as other cities asking them to convey their heartfelt gratitude to the non-PCO judges. As each judge entered, the citizens’ delegation gave them a standing ovation and enthusiastic applause.

A student from the Lahore University of Management Sciences (LUMS) had flown in especially for the occasion with a letter for each judge from his fellow alumni and students explaining their support.

“For giving us this glimmer of hope, this tangible inspiration, this possibility of change, we thank you,” said the letter. “For your courage and resolve, for your steadfastness, for your selflessness, we salute you. For carrying on the struggle and showing all of Pakistan what a principled stand really means, we congratulate you.”

The judges particularly appreciated the principled stand of their colleagues who had only recently been elevated from the District Courts, and of Justice Rehmat Hussain Jaffery, who was due to retire this November but did not take oath despite being offered a position in the Supreme Court.

Answering a question about what was different this time, considering that many judges had refused to take oath under previous martial laws, former Chief Justice of SHC Sabihuddin Ahmed pointed out that, this time, the number of such judges was far higher than ever before. Sindh has the highest percentage of non-PCO judges. Justice Zafar Sherwani pointed out that, this time, the judiciary did what the people expected them to do, which was to stand by the the principles on which this country was founded.
"

The above news item shows the tremendous courage by the civil socity and the judicial bodies. I am sure there would not be any real help, when it realy matters in this democratic cause, from USA and other western democracies because the dictator who is calling the shots is a "blue eyed" of the powers that be in the ongoing war on terror. I wonder if the people who bear the brunt of this dictatorship would love or hate the west. I wonder if someone among the same people does not become a fanatic just because when the same person who is legitimately and in a civilised manner finthing for his or her right, just because we ignored the humanity's cry for help.

"Pakistan must make its own history" It already has its history of training terrorists,grooming Taliban, Alqaeda, harbouring criminals, Lawless land and Army/ISI/Dictators are rulers of the nation. Pakistan is the origin of world Terror planning and training. One cannot be an expert terrorist until they get trained by Pakistani Army. This is known to rest of the world except Americans, after 911 Musharaf was doing lip service for the $10Billions and protecting his Taliban thugs, Alqeda,ISI,QA khan and modernizing Army to fight with India for Kargil war mis-adventure. Mush realized the double sword Taliban only after sucide bomb attempts on his life for playing double game with them. Before 911, Army thugs were training Alqaeda & Taliban and ISI was busy planning terror activities against non-Islamic countries except China, as China was providing technology and building their Military might with US Aid Money.

All the terror network is still intact in Pakistan, Osama is still enjoying freedom in this country & so are the Madrasas which spit out venom against non-islamists.

What you sow is what you get, this is exactly true in their case.

"Pakistan must make its own history" It already has its history of training terrorists,grooming Taliban, Alqaeda, harbouring criminals, Lawless land and Army/ISI/Dictators are rulers of the nation. Pakistan is the origin of world Terror planning and training. One cannot be an expert terrorist until they get trained by Pakistani Army. This is known to rest of the world except Americans, after 911 Musharaf was doing lip service for the $10Billions and protecting his Taliban thugs, Alqeda,ISI,QA khan and modernizing Army to fight with India for Kargil war mis-adventure. Mush realized the double sword Taliban only after sucide bomb attempts on his life for playing double game with them. Before 911, Army thugs were training Alqaeda & Taliban and ISI was busy planning terror activities against non-Islamic countries except China, as China was providing technology and building their Military might with US Aid Money.

All the terror network is still intact in Pakistan, Osama is still enjoying freedom in this country & so are the Madrasas which spit out venom against non-islamists.

What you sow is what you get, this is exactly true in their case.

David,

The only problem with your article is.... well... it's a little... too late. Had this article been written in 2001, it would have been a timely warning.

However, you may be aware that, after 9/11, the U.S. chose to intervene in Pakistan. The "war against terror" clearly defined enemies -radical muslim- and friends -whomever was against radical muslims. Musharraf met the profile for a "friend".

Since 2001 the U.S. has flooded the Musharraf militia with $10+ billion, largely as expense reinbursements for fighting Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. Several billions went to buy US-made long-range weapons, better suited to attack India than to fight muslim militants.

The "war against terror" had the effect of turning broad segments of Pakistanis against Musharraf and against the U.S. No wonder why 46% of the population have a favorable view of Osama Bin Laden, compared to Musharraf's 38% and Bush's 9%.

In recent months, the U.S. tried to force Musharraf accept a coallition government OF PAKISTAN, including Benazir Buttho.

* * *

Ok. The U.S. has been providing political and financial support to a corrupt military, in order to fight muslims in a 160-million-people muslim country. And the U.S. has been back and forth organizing Pakistan's government.

Now you suggest LEAVING PAKISTANIS ALONE so they can make their own decisions about their country.

How laughable!!!

I cannot say that I have EVER considered you as a cynic David, as some other commentators on your opinion piece last week semed to suggest. At the same time I cannot say that I have EVER thought of you as a naive idealist either. That would be insulting to you as It would be insulting to me if anybody thought so.

Even then, when I agee with you 105% now, I have diificulty believing that you REALLY FUULY mean what you are writing. But maybe you have gone through an epiphany of sorts!

If Americans have decided not to pursue their "democratic ideals" through out the world, then I wonder why there was such a big fuss about Burma. Your first lady even got close to call for a boycat of the Olympics in China.

http://e-diasporan.blogspot.com

Test

@Zoltan:
It's called comment cube, or comment square, supposed to enhanced the structure of commenting like those CDO cube and CDO square in the debt production business.

We need some more creative commenting ... like creative accounting.

So here are the comments to the analysis to the comments on the question (Pakistan et al) ? I'd like to comment on the following article about this comment^2 section, and see if I can add to the analysis to the comments on the question about the analysed article that the comments will have sparked. Or was that the other way round, I don't remember.

DA"One thing I’ve learned is that we sometimes need to temper our idealistic desire to jump in on the side of oppressed people. Often, outsiders simply don’t know enough about the underlying dynamics in these societies to understand the consequences of their actions"

"Idealism"... is not driving this administration nor has it driven most Foreign Policy decisions for decades in ANY US administration. Look, we have to be involved here...there are nukes, there are Al Qaeda strongholds...and too many other geopolitical issues/potential problems here to consider (involving India/China Afghanistan to name a few) ..we are certainly reaching out covertly to Gen. Kayani...who comes from Pakistan Intel and has probably had a realtionship with US Intel people for sometime...that's fine...that's what countries do...Stratfor reports he helped broker the political arrangement between Bhutto and Musharraf...if it had worked..great...but it has not...so now what?...IF elections are held Musharraf will NOT win unless they are highly manipulated...Bhutto is highly compromised due to her past, for some due to this deal with Mushharraf, and also now even among the "lawyers" and the secular liberal constituency because she is ALREADY SEEN as a tool of the US. We must be very careful here...Anti Americanism is rampant and at foaming of the mouth vicious state...we should not make the mistake we often make, i.e., seeing people wanting a secular democratic country is same as being pro US...IT IS NOT ...for now at least, those days are gone in many parts ofthe world...especially in Muslim countries (and for good reason!) if we compromise Kayani by looking like we are the hand guiding events he will be toast too...then all hell breaks loose...Kayani,his generals,the Chief Justice, his constituency, political Islamists, and Pakistanis will take this country into a new post -Mushharraf era...whether it looks like Turkey or Iran down the line will depend on the actions of the US...our actions should be keeping lines of communication open ...but not overt interference in Pakistan politics. Has teh US learned anything in the last few years? we shall see, if we have smartened up we will also have lines of communication to political Islamists here too...because we are going to need them.
BTW, I don't believe for a minute that the US does not know and has not helped secure nuclear weapons in Pakistan ...this total SUNDAY morning paper/talk show hype...

I'm not here to defend Musharaf or Sadam. But blaming Sadam for all the suffering of Iraqis under his rule is less legitimate than blaming the US President Bush for the all suffering of the Iraqis under US occupation.

Only now that the US is inside Iraq, you know that the one million Iraqis dead and two million displaced are mostly because of their own doing. Why don't they just sit back drink tea and let the US build the dream house democracy of the middle East ?

The thing here is everyone assumes that people in other country are like themselves or people around them. When you've been living in a foreign culture half of your life, you'll realize that societies are different like men and women. They speak different languages, and even if using the same language, they perceive words differently. The only things in common are money and oil :-)

And the USA seems interested in oil.

My impression is you intentionally forget about it, David. If not so, I apologize, but I really think you should remember that.

Thanks for the good article, kudos. Comparison of Pakistan with Iraq is out of place except a lesson learned for the US. A recent survey in Pakistan showed Osama Bin Laden leading Musharaf. That does not mean Osma is more popular, but that Musharaf is very un-popular. That is the vote again Musharaf. Remember in 1992 when Ross Perot got about 19% votes. Those votes were against both established parties.

It’s true, that let the Pakistanis sort this out. Any US support for one party or the other will draw people against that party. And if Musharaf does let the other former prime minister back in the country, the religious parties will get a boost. Please note many religious parties are not extremists. In fact none of the secular parties have any internal elections except the Jamaat-e-Islami. That party had full support of CIA in the cold war to counter communists from taking hold in Pakistan. That party is still considered the middle of the road religious party. Before US involvement in Afghanistan, the most votes the religious right ever got was 3%. In the current parliament they have 9% seats.

Moral of the story is that US must stand by and Pakistanis sort it out. However, the Pakistani Diaspora must put pressure on Musharaf and get international pressure for restoration of democracy without taking sides.

“changing Pakistan is a job for Pakistanis, and the more we meddle, the more likely we are to get things wrong.

Only trouble is that Uncle Sam doesnt understand this.

“changing Pakistan is a job for Pakistanis, and the more we meddle, the more likely we are to get things wrong.

Only trouble is that Uncle Sam doesnt understand this.