The ethnic nationalism on both sides has to stop, or there will only be perpetual violence. The ethnic segregation of two arbitrarily partitioned states cannot be the answer.

Here's hoping Barack Obama will actually consider the words of his own inaugural address in his quest for a sustainable peace in the Middle East:

"For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus - and non-believers. We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth; and because we have tasted the bitter swill of civil war and segregation, and emerged from that dark chapter stronger and more united, we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; THAT THE LINES OF TRIBE SHALL SOON DISSOLVE; that as the world grows smaller, our COMMON HUMANITY shall reveal itself; and that America must play its role in ushering in a new era of peace."

Two "people," one land - share it!

I think we as americans do ourselves a diservice by condeming hamas along with israel, there is no moral equivelance palestine is under occupation by brutal religious fanatics who believe none other than god himself (as if god would choose favorites)gave them the land and radical yeshivas and rabbis who indoctrinate jews to hate and kill all non jews,its worth noting that 96 percent of jews believed the idf should have continued the assault! there is an inherrent blood lust towards non jews in israel....remember the chief rabbi commanding the idf before the invasion to kill every man,women and child and spare nothing even beasts, and cited talmudic precedent for the killing of women and children....hamas instead of sitting on their hands while their people are brutalized killed and starved do what little they can (send homemade fireworks over the apartheid wall) to remind israel they have dignity and protest the oppression, if israel were occupying ny and starving and brutalizing our families i know we would be a lot more than shooting homemade rockets that land in sand a break a few flower pots.....israel is a terrorist nation whos people all believe and cheer the killing of non jews, its what their taught. israel is the toilet of the middle east, and as senator fulbright said " the biggest threat to americas national security is israel and their jewish agents and supporters in america. to be anti semitic is to be a decent compassionate american. we have nothing in common with these barbaric immoral people

“Just because one criticizes Israel does not mean one blames everything else on them. Here you go again showing your Israelocentic view of the universe.”

Read the NY Times article I posted for the other fellow. It’s about your friends Walt & Mearscheimer, and it goes exactly to what I said about “criticizing Israel”. Its has gone way beyond criticism a long time ago.

“Again, just because one believes that Israeli actions are partially wrong, doesn't mean that one is a member of KKK and SS and not to be heard of again. That is exactly what AIPAC does in the US in order to shut down ANY criticism of Israel.”

If you can back up this claim with a concrete example, let’s see it. If all you have to offer are conspiracy theories, I think I’ve proved my point.

"The warmongers in the USA, Israel and Iran must know that peace is not in their favor. But the people in USA, Israel and Iran should know otherwise."

I noticed that your definition of “warmongers” does not include any Arabs of any nation. What was that you said before about people who can do no wrong in the eyes of their supporters?

"Imagine a peaceful Middle-East with Jew, Muslim and Christian living without military threats. Israeli industries can help build underdeveloped areas and participate in technological advance of the whole region. Iran can do the same and cooperate in every level."

Iran could but not as long as it is ruled by a doomsday cult. Israel has tried that when it left the Gaza Strip to be ruled by Palestinians, and offered to cooperate with them in agriculture and trade. We all saw how successful that went.

Everything you said could come true if the Arabs learned to accept Israel. As long as they try to destroy it, there will be war. It’s as simple as that.

and just one more unrelated thing:

The warmongers in the USA, Israel and Iran must know that peace is not in their favor. But the people in USA, Israel and Iran should know otherwise.

Imagine a peaceful Middle-East with Jew, Muslim and Christian living without military threats. Israeli industries can help build underdeveloped areas and participate in technological advance of the whole region. Iran can do the same and cooperate in every level.

Do you know who will lose if the above condition is realized? US multinationals, Oil cartels and defense industries (military-industrial complex)

Do you remember the British principle of Divide and Conquer

To MichaelNJ,

Just because one criticizes Israel does not mean one blames everything else on them. Here you go again showing your Israelocentic view of the universe.

Again, just because one believes that Israeli actions are partially wrong, doesn't mean that one is a member of KKK and SS and not to be heard of again. That is exactly what AIPAC does in the US in order to shut down ANY criticism of Israel. and you are doing the same on this forum by bringing up the "protocols" to suggest deepseeded antisemitism.

No, no and no. As citizens of the world, we are allowed to say that many actions of the Israeli government are wrong and some actions are barbaric and war crimes. period. We can correctly point out that due to subversive AIPAC action in the USA, that legitimate criticism of Israel is censored and blackmailed. (google John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt)

peaceful2008 :

"Here is my point. The problem for Israel supporters is that they feel impelled to project an image of a "perfect" Israel" and perfect "Jew" Everything Israel does is correct. Why is that? Why can't people say well, we like X, Y and Z about Israel, but don't like A, B, and C?"

No argument there. I can tell you more things that are wrong with Israel than you will ever know. But the things you listed are not among them.

"I think Iran is a good country with generally good people, but it has some fundamentalists in power the action and words of whom I do not like. It is easy for me to say this, because I do not believe that Iranians are by definition the center of mankind, whose actions determine the boundary of good and evil."

As long as you know what those boundaries of good and evil are. You seem to believe that Iran is some sort of a paradise of freedom, equality and free speech, enjoyed by all religious minorities.

"The Zionists, on the other hand, believe that Jews are by definition always right!"

I have no idea who told you that, so I cannot address this statement seriously.

Correction...

Israel wasn't in danger until last month.

But how can one think that a failed state so detested in the world, detested with a fine white rage after
showing it's barbarism and utter disregard for humanity in Gaza is safe?

The war, undertaken so zippi Livni could show she was more savage than the savages running against her. And the Israelis bought it, loved the carnage by 94% and nearly elected her! Wasn't noticed?

As far as Iran, the Israelis aren't afraid bombs from Iran. They want to be the
dominant nation in the region. They'll be lucky to survive.

AIPACiswar :

"You know, you need to at least add a tiny bit of believability to your propaganda if you want it to pass for honest opinion. Israel is not threatened as a state. It's not fight or die. Israel's Neocon militarist leadership may be threatened with political death, is that what you mean?"

I am not sure what planet you live on, but here on earth Israel is very much under threat, and always has been. Not only under threat but under very concrete attacks resulting in very concrete casualties. Its leadership is subject to change, like that of any democratic country. In the immortal words of Daniel Patrick Moynihan, you are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

The same goes to your opinions about Aipac and US Evangelicals. The hysterical obsession of the Arab propaganda machine and its useful dupes in the West with what they call “the lobby” is rooted not in facts but in convenience. As long as they can blame all the problems of the ME on someone else they do not have to lift a finger to do something in way of a constructive solution, and they exempt themselves from having to bear an ounce of responsibility. This is the new incarnation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, it works just as well as the old one, and its end results will probably be just as destructive. If you have a shred of open-mindedness, you may wish to read this article from an Arab-American conference in Jordan last year:

http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F20E14FE3F5B0C7B8CDDAD0894DF404482

Dear MichaelNJ.

Here is my point. The problem for Israel supporters is that they feel impelled to project an image of a "perfect" Israel" and perfect "Jew" Everything Israel does is correct. Why is that? Why can't people say well, we like X, Y and Z about Israel, but don't like A, B, and C?

I think Iran is a good country with generally good people, but it has some fundamentalists in power the action and words of whom I do not like. It is easy for me to say this, because I do not believe that Iranians are by definition the center of mankind, whose actions determine the boundary of good and evil.

The Zionists, on the other hand, believe that Jews are by definition always right! Israel has never committed any wrong acts of war???? Never ever are Jews wrong?

MichaelNJ

You know, you need to at least add a tiny bit of believability to your propaganda if you want it to pass for honest opinion. Israel is not threatened as a state. It's not fight or die. Israel's Neocon militarist leadership may be threatened with political death, is that what you mean?

Check my usename. Your AIPAC has been the single most propagandistic image builder in US media, so any distortion has been unnaturally toward the positive, more truth indeed means more negatives for little Israel, too bad but that's your bed you you made, you lie in it.

The part where Israel is "sacred," you missed that huh? US evangelicals, the idiots who put Bush in power, hold your little dirt pile as SACRED, and toss their brains into the neocon koolaid blender as such. And Israel takes their money while crap-canning their beliefs.

Now, let me tell you this; I support Israel as it is, a sovereign nation etc. As I say, we stole Georgia from the Cherokee and we aren't giving it back. As I posted, I see Jews as educated, liberal, and enlightened. But the likes of you and your lies only serve to weaken support for Israel.

AIPACiswar :

"MichaelNJ Very good, so whence Machiavelli of 600 years past? He said a Prince must be not just feared, but also loved, to survive."

Nice if you can have them both. If you had to choose between being loved and dead or “criticized” and alive what would you choose?

"The fact is there is no credible military threat to the nation of Israel, that's another canard."

Well then it must be that those non-stop Arab attacks for the last 100 years were just a figment of the Israelis’ imagination. You should get on the phone and tell them that. I’m sure they would be delighted to hear the good news, and would proceed to disarm instantly and unilaterally.

"The whole image of Israel in the USA is being refreshed these days, only because it has been largely a lie."

Funny, in my dictionary the word "refreshed" does not appear as a synonym for “systematically distorted”.

"First they get made out to be human instead of sacred, then they will be made to act human."

Too bad they missed out on the part when they were sacred. When exactly was that?

lufrank1 said:
"Ultimate test of the wisdom of forming the Jewish State in Palestine,
Have the UN enlist all major players, Germany, France, England, the USA, Russia, Japan and China to gather all ultra-right wing Christians and their Hannity, Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Pat Robertson dittoheads AND move them to CUBA and establish that as their rightful home. We can call it “Limburger”.
Ignore the native Cubans but let them stay there as disenfranchised “citizens”, i.e. socially and politically castrate. Oh - -almost forgot . . . provide unlimited and blind $$$ and firearms to the new Limburgers -- without any strings attached."

This is the coolest idea ever. Can I volunteer to drive the transport boats?

On a more serious note: wouldn't it have made more sense to establish a Jewish state somewhere the locals couldn't complain? Like, say, Bavaria?

PEACEFUL2008 :

"Iran does not bomb civilians with white phosphurus in captive camps."

They are the captives of Hamas only, and if Hamas did not use its citizens as human shields to attack Israel, those citizens would be safe and sound, and even prosperous. What does it have to do with Iranian Jews?

"Iran does not steal land in the name of religion"

Neither does Israel. What does it have to do with Iranian Jews?

"Iran does not attack its neighbors and kill civilians with impunity"

Neither does Israel. What does it have to do with Iranian Jews?

"Iran does not have nuclear weapons"

Thank heavens, although that is about to change too. What does it have to do with Iranian Jews?

"Iran does not hijack the US foreign policy to serve its shameful apartheid policies"

Neither does Israel. What does it have to do with Iranian Jews?

Time for you to start expanding your sources of information beyond Al-Jazeera.

Peaceful2008

Apparently I am being censored... as my post from 2 hours ago "being held for approval".

Thank you for Pointing out Iran, which artificially creates/limits jews to 1 seat in the assembly of 290. (Limited to 1, but might not otherwise, by vote, even get one....)One spot also reserved/created for Zoroasters.

Iran is the most tolerant predominantly Islamic nation towards Jews - still not perfect. Jewish students have compulsory Islamic instruction in most circumstances, most jewish schools are required to be open on the sabbath and access to Hebrew texts is severely discouraged.

That said, Jewish merchants work side by side with the other persians regardless of religion.

Thank you of reminding me about Iran. It's by no means perfect, but probably best example.

Why does anyone think that requiring citizens to take a loyalty oath to the nation (not "government," note, but "nation") in which they hold their citizenship seen as unacceptable? American schoolchildren pledge their allegiance to the symbol of America, her flag, every weekday morning before school. Loyalty is, reasonably enough, considered to be a de facto requirement for citizenship. An American who refuses to fulfill the responsibilities of citizenship or takes up arms against their country can have their citizenship stripped from them. Why shouldn't Israel reserve the right to strip citizenship from those who not only plot gainst their own country, but even refuse to recognize its very right to exist?

MichaelNJ Very good, so whence Machiavelli of 600 years past? He said a Prince must be not just feared, but also loved, to survive.

The fact is there is no credible military threat to the nation of Israel, that's another canard. The whole image of Israel in the USA is being refreshed these days, only because it has been largely a lie. First they get made out to be human instead of sacred, then they will be made to act human. History rolls on.

To MichaelNJ,

Iran does not bomb civilians with white phosphurus in captive camps.

Iran does not steal land in the name of religion

Iran does not attack its neighbors and kill civilians with impunity

Iran does not have nuclear weapons

Iran does not hijack the US foreign policy to serve its shameful apartheid policies

AIPACiswar :

"What ever happened to the liberal, educated, enlightened Jew we've all come to know and love?"

He has found out what the U.S. has found out 200 years ago, and what other nations have found out throughout history: Being liberal, educated and enlightened alone is not enough to survive. You need some weapons too.

peaceful2008 :

"Iran has Jewish representatives in the their House of Representatives. Jewish Iranians live in harmony with non-Jewish people. Read "in harmony" if that works for you fine, but it is not in charge of their non-Jewish neighbors, not sucking their money and treating them like second class citizens"
_________________________________________________

Iran has one token Jewish representative. Like all Iranian Jews, and like all non-Muslims in Iran, he has not a word of criticism of the Islamic republic, because he is fully aware of the cost of criticism.

You will never hear him, for instance, referring to the regime as "Nazis" or "spiders", like the democratically elected Arab members of parliament call Israel. You will never hear him expressing support of Iran's enemies at times of war, and hope that his own country would be defeated. You will never see him travelling to visit enemy states and meet with enemy leaders, all of which has been done by Israeli Arab parliament members with impunity. Iranian Jews are never engaged in acts of terror against Iran, like some Israeli Arabs are. They never stage violent riots in support of Iran's enemies during war or at any other time, like some Israeli Arabs are. They are not engaged in spying against Iran, Like some Israeli Arabs are, although from time to time the Mullahs feel compelled to put a few Jews on trial on fabricated spying charges, just to make sure the rest of them would not get any funny ideas. Iranian Jews do not stage ceremonies to commemorate pogroms carried out in the past by Jews against Muslims, and do not call the perpetrators heroes. That may be a moot point, because Iranian Jews have never carried out any pogroms against Muslims, but the Arabs in Israel do that.

Iran is a place where people are routinely hanged in the public square or stoned to death for much lighter offenses. So yes, the Jews of Iran are very, very quiet, and when asked about the Iranian government, they have nothing but praise for it. That’s because Iran has perfected the methods for achieving harmony.

Arkansas just changed it's law requiring those who sit on juries to believe in the Christian God. I expect more brains out of Jews than the human embarrassments out in Oklahoma and Arknasas. What ever happened to the liberal, educated, enlightened Jew we've all come to know and love?

Ultimate test of the wisdom of forming the Jewish State in Palestine,
Have the UN enlist all major players, Germany, France, England, the USA, Russia, Japan and China to gather all ultra-right wing Christians and their Hannity, Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Pat Robertson dittoheads AND move them to CUBA and establish that as their rightful home. We can call it “Limburger”.
Ignore the native Cubans but let them stay there as disenfranchised “citizens”, i.e. socially and politically castrate. Oh - -almost forgot . . . provide unlimited and blind $$$ and firearms to the new Limburgers -- without any strings attached.

to Enlightment:

Iran has Jewish representatives in the their House of Representatives. Jewish Iranians live in harmony with non-Jewish people.

Read "in harmony" if that works for you fine, but it is not in charge of their non-Jewish neighbors, not sucking their money and treating them like second class citizens

The antics of Leiberman mirror the insanity of various American Christians who would declare the USA a Christian nation, and constantly lie about the founding of this country to forward their agenda.

Is Judaism a religion? What about Jews who do not believe in God? Are they religious? Can you see how criticizing Israel is made to be impossibly difficult by the nature of Judaism, and this is used to toss the anti-Semite canard? You can't? I thought not.

Tribalism and nationalism are both ugly and evil in my estimation, aside from religion. Israel is both wildly tribalistic and nationalistic, it seems. So how does an observer criticize? Oh we don't? I thought you'd say that.

This debate will help to test whether Americans support Israel out of ignorance of its internal contradictions or they simply do not care about principles when they are inconvenient. And by Americans obviously I do not mean most Jewish Americans or evangelical Protestants, who can hardly be expected to be unbiased. But the vast majority of Americans are secular and have some allegiance to principles of democracy. At least I hope so.

@AnViennaVA - You are correct, I did not specifically pledge allegiance to a Christian state, just implicitly... It was a direct response to someone who seemed to allege that if you were not christian you were somehow not able to have an allegiance to the U.S.

Avigdor Lieberman is a populist fool, no questions with that, and dangerous to boot. His allegiance policy lacks the refinement that would possibly indicate that it is more than closet ultra-nationalistic rhetoric. His statements directed toward his Arab collegues in the Knesset are deplorable. He is only a tad better than Louisiana electing David Duke. Lieberman apparently learned nothing from his Russian roots.

The vitriol with which many deplore Israel would have left me less likely to post, were it solely aimed at politics of Israel. It is the not so subtle condemnation of a religion that is problematic. The pure propoganda and hatred is ridiculous (whether it be anti-judaism or anti-islamic as in other topic comments).

OKAY,
we're all so stupid.

(for example) that kindly, congenial Jews...'only wanted a small plot of land to live in peace and cooperation with their neighbors') !!

that we're just constantly critical of the Jews FOR NO REASON AT ALL...the hatred they've earned in every century, in every country, wherever they've showed up,

is everyone else's fault.

Perhaps there is a test, finally:
if things are not well in "their own place" given to them

and in that last bastion of acceptance, welcoming America, some thought should be given
to behavior.

But all we'll ever get is spewing hatred of our stupidty and veniality and screems of holocaust.

JerryDunietz @February 23, 2009 11:16 AM: Your post makes sense only if one accepts that disagreement with Zionism is a desire to kill Jews. It is not! It is disagreement with a racist ideology.

Apartheid israel exposes the empty slogans - human rights, equality, .. - of the west who enables the racist entity politically and supplies it militarily to keep the ethnic cleansing on palestinians going. Western morality is being exposed worldwide.

Enlightenment @February 23, 2009 10:43 AM: It is good that you have pledged allegiance to the US. But remember that it was not to the US as a Christian nation (afterall, most of us are Christians).

There is a very big difference between that and what may be demanded of the Palestinians.

Then again, even if I refuse to pledge allegiance to the US, I will not be kicked out nor lose the right to vote; I may simply become ineligible for some jobs that require a security clearance. It is unconstitutional. That is the difference between a democratic and a totalitarian regime.

The importance of the article is that it helps to further clarify the peculiar and undemocratic nature of Israel in the face of the wall of propaganda fed to Americans.

It is remarkable how much dishonest pro-Israeli manipulation of the image of Israel there is here, it is in fact total. When given a more accurate picture of that troublesome state American support dwindles, as it should. It was the availability of eye catching footage of Israel's recent criminal invasion of Gaza that helped adjust Americans opinion of Israel downward, a direction it should continue to go in.

Take away the Christian cult fools who need Israel for their biblical fantasies and support for Israel falls to about the level for Portugal or Bolivia, as it should. The Israelis are master media manipulators, very smart and very rich, they play media chess while we play checkers. Americans would prefer to hear the truth, too bad for Israel.

Publish more truth and so push push push Israel to change it's ways. That's the concept.

Well if only Jews can live in Israel,

then Jews shold be allowed to live ONLY in Israel.

Given the tenor of polls and actions all over the world, and lately that is including Amerians who are angry about Wall Street and it's paydays, and wars, and Gaza-- strong and growing anti-semitism,

that statement may be more real than jest. It's getting dangerous out there, and all we hear is
nasty invective and calls of what is clear, anti-semitism.

I have regretably come to the conclusion that many readers of the WasingtonPost online would love to see the end of the Jewish people. I thought the majority of Americans, and certainly literate Post readrs, would be able to see past the propaganda and outright lies of the pan-Arab nationalists, but they seem predisposed to embrace any excuse to let their native anti-Semitism (or anti-Jewishness, if you prefer) come to the forefront.

With the currrent international and domestic economic crises in mind, I can foresee anti-Semitism beoming more pronounced. That is why I thank God that Israel exists. One little country among hundreds in the world for the Jewish people (not a religion, race or cabal, a PEOPLE) to call their own. A safe haven, a refuge, when the historically illiterate start to scapegoat us yet again.

Back when the economy was stronger, I had a chance to eat breakfast with one of my U.S. Senators at the National Gathering of Holocaust Survivors. She told me, perhaps presciently, that the surest way to make sure that a genocide against Jews never happened in this country was to ensure full employment and a thriving economy. It scares the daylights out of me that there is a correlation between the worsening of our economy and the rise in patently anti-Jewish statements in the comment areas of the online Post.

How can anyone fail to see the illogic of the author's claim that Israel should not exist as a Jewish state? Every other nationality, every people, has recognized rights of self-determination (yes, the Palestinians now included, though arguably they lacked a national identity as Palestinians in 1947). Why not the Jews? Those who repeat the canard that Zionism is racism should examine their own consciences for traces of anti-Semitism. Bet you also think there's a worldwide conspiracy of Jewish bankers at work, or controlling the media, too. Puh-leeze.

I fought for divestiture of institutional funds invested in a truly racist South African regime in the 1970s. Would you have fought for saving Jewish lives in WWII? I work now to raise consciousness of a modern-day genocide in Darfur perpetrated by Arabs against fellow Muslims. But guess which country aids sub-Saharan Africa the most in proportion to its GDP? (Hint: Rhymes with 'tis real.) Don't look to Israel for racism. Look to Arab countries like Saudi Arabia that refuse to allow the practice of other religions in its borders, or that refused to allow Palestinian refugees to become citizens.

Seems like once again, a global depression is setting the stage for the rise of anti-Jewish propaganda. I beg of the Post readership, please don't get taken in by it. All Israel has EVER wanted was a little piece of land for the Jewish people and to live in peace and cooperation with its neighbors AND its non-Jewish inhabitants. That's the real fact. Anything else is propaganda.

"Palestinian citizens of Israel have repeatedly said, they didn't come to Israel - Israel came to them." That's cute, but nonsensical, as many radical slogans are. Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews, and this article does not dispute that fact - it only mentions a fear that in the future it won't be so. So this article is extremely misleading.

Chill out everyone. This loyalty oath business is a red herring. It is election campaign posturing that will never become law, for a simple reason: The vast majority of Israelis will laugh it off. They will never stand for any demand to prove their loyalty to the nation. I'm talking about Jewish Israelis. This whole business is taken seriously only by people who have a very superficial knowledge of Israel, like Fareed Zakaria or that Kuttab character.

Patrick3 - as a U.S. Citizen, and a Jewish one, I have pledged Allegience to the U.S. probably some 3000+ times while facing the U.S. Flag, just like you. Please refrain from the ridiculous hyperbole just because of your stance on Israel.

Blekind nails it. From Wikipedia (for what its worth) "Islamic Republic is the name given to several states in the Muslim world including the Islamic Republics of Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan and Mauritania. Pakistan adopted the title under the constitution of 1956. Mauritania adopted it on 28 November 1958. Iran adopted it after the 1979 Islamic Revolution that overthrew the Pahlavi government. Afghanistan adopted it after the 2001 overthrow of the Taliban. Despite the similar name the countries differ greatly in their governments and laws."

Islamic Republic is apparently O.K, as is the "Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan", the official name of Kuttab's country of residence. Hashemite is arguably a religious reference, but, for purposes of this post, and probably more accurately, it is an ethnic reference. Much like the "Jewish" reference. Odd, what's good for the goose is apparently not good for the gander.

That said, Mandatory military service for Arab-Israeli citizens is not equitable in light of the exception for orthodox jews. National service (whether military or civilian) required of all, might be more equitable.

Aszik, your complaint about the reference "Arab-Israelis" is misplaced. These individuals have affirmatively agreed to recognize and engage in the Governing of Israel, including representation in the Legislative Knesset going back to 1951(Seif-El-Din El-Zubi, Masaad Kassis and Jabr Moade were elected, all arabs). The Balad party, Ta'al and Hadash all have current members of the Knesset, and represent, collectively, approximately 10% of the membership of the legislature. You may believe that they are traitors, but that is a different story (your opinion vs. the fact that they are participants). Please point out what "Arab" or "Muslim" nation permits jews to paticipate in elected government? Curious, if this situation exists. Would be pleased if true.

Googleguy - very deep dude... any intelligent explanation or are you just parroting others without an intelligent thought?

zionism is racism.

For all those who insist that the US Constitution call for a "separation of church and state" I ask them to actually read the Constitution and see if they can find that, or a similar phrase. In fact, the Constitution simply states that the government will not favor one religion over another. Further, it is believed by most constitutional scholars that the meaning was that the government will not favor one Christian sect over another.

As to Kuttab's ramblings. He is purposely missing the point, as do all "Palestinian" apologists and supporters of Hamas/Islamic Jihad, and the rest of those nut groups.

"Maybe Jewish Americans should be compelled to take a loyalty oath to the United States and abjure any allegiance to Israel and if they refuse they should be stripped of U.S. citizenship and deported to Israel." Most good Americans recite the Pledge of Allegiance from childhood. Even President Obama learned to place his hand over his heart and sing the National Anthem.

Those who serve in high office swear to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. All new citizens take an oath.
Israel is an ally of the United States in deeds and in actions. Those who wish to destroy Israel have the same mindset as Hitler did. They will end up the same way he did.

Israel was created to be a homeland for Jews who have suffered at the hands of barbarians from time immemorial to the Holocaust. That Israel wants to protect itself from the barbarian hoards is understandable to all but the Arabs and the Jidadist terrorists.
Israel has the right to exist and no amount of pontification or rationalization concerning their attackers can change that fact.

When the United States gives the Indians back their land, and allows the Mexicans to reclaim their territory, Israel need not give the holy land back to any other entity. It was always theirs.

Dear Prof. Kuttab,
I agree with everything that you have said. I would add, however, that many Israelis do not identify themselves as "Jewish" in terms of religion, but rather in terms of ethnicity. Seen in this light, the concept of a Jewish state amounts to ethnocracy, rather than theocracy. And what is an ethnocracy, if not a racist state? Just as the world disapproved of European ethnocracy in South Africa, so should we also reject ethnic supremacism in the case of Israel. Corporate divestment is just as appropriate now in regard to Israel as it was during the struggle for equality in South Africa.
With regard to Avigdor Lieberman's concept of a loyalty oath, let us imagine an American equivalent. Would any of us condone an American politician calling for a loyalty oath to be sworn by Jewish Americans (perhaps certifying that their primary allegiance is to the USA rather than Israel)? Such an idea is outrageous, inconceivable, and shocking. Why? Because our democratic ideals (of which Israel is our purported representative and beacon in the Middle East -- or so we claim) do not allow the government to impose special requirements on any particular ethnic group; such a requirement would be reminiscent of the "literacy tests" demanded of prospective African American voters during the Civil Rights struggle.
Please continue your excellent work, Prof. Kuttab.

I disagree with this author in several levels:
1- US has set is policy of "separation of church and State" for itself. Not for others. It has plenty of relations with so-called Islamic countries such as Pakistan, Indonesia and others.
Another issue is the Arabs as a minority in Israel. Jews are a minority in Iran and again the country is still islamic. Arabs unhappy with Israel can pack and leave.
Arabs should also serve the IDF or other service for the country. If they like to have rights and services from the Israeli taxpayer he or she can also work for the country. If not Israel can send them into Palestine.
Or exchange their areas with Palestinians ( for areas that jews actually live in). It is simple really. A question of options.

read Tessler's "A History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict" and you'll understand that it was in fact the Arabs who inhabited the land known as Israel first, not the Jews. The Jews didn't become a majority in Israel until after World War I. And if you want to quote the Bible as your justification for the Jews having the land, then please go to the corner and color in a book.

People call the author hypocritical because they claim that other Arab nations are based on Islam. But the difference between those countries and Israel is the fact that those countries had a HUGE majority of Muslim followers both acting as citizens and the political navigators when the nation was established. Unfortunately for the Palestinians (btw the area was called Palestine pre-WWI), it was about a 50-50 Muslim/Jewish ratio when the world gave the land to the Jews in the '40s. Calling Israel a "Jewish" state is tantamount to calling the U.S. a "Christian" one.

Regardless of these facts, neither side is innocent in the current atrocities that are going on in the region i.e. rocket attacks followed by bulldozing countless homes or unjust check points established to harass Arab citizens. On the flip side, both have powerful forces that are working towards a peaceful solution.

The recent elections in Israel have left many observers around the world dismayed at the success of the Right wing parties. No media organ outside of Israel has offered any serious analysis of this. The truth ladies and gentlemen, is that Israel and its citizens are sick and tired.
Sick and tired of appeasing those that seek her destruction, of making constant concessions only to receive a more precarious security situation.
The rabid atmosphere clmouring for Israel's blood only increases as time goes by.
Israel is demonized and dehumanized systematically by a media that is one sided, biased and committed to an assault on Israel similar to what was done to South Africa pre 1994.
Indeed, it is the wet dream of so many, that Israel will submit itself to oblivion as the white residents of Zimbabwe did in 1980.
Terribly sorry to disappoint you, but the Jews aren't made of that material, and will answer the world with defiance, and a further and further departure to the Right. Your campaign of hatred and mistruth only drives Israel to the extreme as she senses her isolation. The consequences, to a large extent, lie with you.

Professor Kuttab,

I see that you are very concerned about the fact that Israel is a Jewish state even though a substantial minority of its population is not Jewish. What are your thoughts about the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan the Islamic Republic of Iran, and the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Are you also very concerned about the religious nature of those states? Are you concerned that Egypt and Syria are both Arab Republics? That is, officially ethnic states. The official title of the King of Saudi Arabia is Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. I take it that you believe that the United States Government should be expressing to the Saudis its great disapproval of this title, mixing religion and state. No doubt you have been telling your Saudi friends about your concerns.

Garak,
Fully agree with u regarding what Robert2008 wrote:
"Mr. Kuttab's most obvious absurdity is to question the right of Israel to be a Jewish state while the rest of the Middle East, Central Asia, and North Africa is replete Muslim countries."

I would add another obviously glaring fact onlt the color-blind and idologues rfeuse to see:The 57 Muslims states are built on Muslim land-while the so called racist apartheid "israel" is a colonial settler state built on Arab Land-as apartheid while south africa was.

Americans reading about these sad and pathetic religious and ethnic divisions elsewhere can do the world a favor by being unabashedly and unashamedly vocal about what we consider to be the fundamentals of political truth, regardless of culture:

--that the individual is the fundamental entity of society, and must be given maximum freedom to make choices and express ideas without legal restraint. This necessarily means that ethnic groups and religious groups cannot be viewed as political entities have rights beyond those of their individuals;
--that women must have all the same political and legal rights as men, in all societies and at all times;
--that the separation of church and state is a necessary legal fundamental for having a just society.

No matter how long it takes modern educated people must hold out for the day when ethnic and religious organizations everywhere are relegated to the subsidiary legal status they ought to have in the face of universal theories of human rights. We need to be working for the day when individual Isreali Jews and Arabs have equal political rights without any reference to Israel being some kind of religious state. Let's fight for the overthrow of religion, race, and ethnicity as legally recognized divisions of humanity rather than accepting them just because they seem difficult to overcome...

This guy is either clueless or deceitful. He should know that Jews do not consider their identity to be solely religious. If he doesn't, after living alongside them for all his life, he is too clueless to be taken seriously, and if he does know this, his whole argument is specious. As long as non-Jewish Israelis are loyal citizens, of a state that identifies itself as one of Jewish NATIONALITY, they are entitled to the same rights as any other loyal citizen. When they aren't loyal, and actively support the enemies of the state, their treatment is likely to be appropriate to their behavior.

The phrase 'non-followers of religion" accurately describes a substantial proportion of Jewish Israelis. Given this, the insistence of the Israeli right on Israel being called a "Jewish State" is illogical.

Marctrius, after following the Israel - Palestine debate, with all its there nastier than us invective, you are a breath of fresh air, thank you

It is interesting to note how some people think it ok that American Indians have been placed in reservations but at the same time would object if the same is suggested to be done with the Jews in Israel.

They ask it to be accepted that Europeans took land away from the Indians but will not accept the same logic for the people who came after Jews happen to have called the place 'home' millennia ago.

Why do they expect to treat the Indians one way and the Jews another?

Robert2008 wrote:

"Mr. Kuttab's most obvious absurdity is to question the right of Israel to be a Jewish state while the rest of the Middle East, Central Asia, and North Africa is replete Muslim countries."

Let's consider this oft-repeated argument. It boils down to Arabs have a lot of land, therefore Jews can steal a small part of it.

So if Robert has a big bank account, I can steal his wallet because he has a lot of money left in the bank.

"Also, Mr. Kuttab repeats here the Palestinians' tired refrain that Israel was built on Palestinian land... this is a lie, and it does not become any more true with repetition."

The real lie is the claim that Palestine was empty before the Zionists came. This is the Joan Peters thesis, argued in her book "From Time Immemorial."

This has been totally discredited, especially by Israeli historians such as Jehoshua Porath. The book is nothing but disinformation and propaganda. And endlessly repeating its lies won't make it true. The Palestinians were there long before the Zionists. They see what happened to the Native Americans, and it ain't gonna happen to them. Israel can just get over it.

Of course it's a Jewish state. Just look at its flag.

Maybe Jewish Americans should be compelled to take a loyalty oath to the United States and abjure any allegiance to Israel and if they refuse they should be stripped of U.S. citizenship and deported to Israel.

asizk, you make some good points; some I agree with, and some I'd love to argue with you. But it would be a lot easier for everybody to see the sense in your positions if you use less adjectives.
I would also like to point out that one crime doesn't justify another. As you said, half the population from the River to the Sea is Jewish, and we now all have to figure out how to live with it.

Mr. Kuttab, I have a lot of sympathy with your position. I think that Lieberman learned all the wrong things in the old USSR (I was also a Russian immigrant when I lived in Israel), and that his proposed changes to the Citizenship Law is simply the worst kind of fascism.
In fact, some of Lieberman's proposals would not sound so bad were they proposed by someone else: national service, if instituted for all of Israel's citizens with military service as one of possible alternatives, that would be an incomparable tool for integration and reconciliation. Of course, it is clear that Lieberman doesn't want that: he would rather the Arabs protested and lost their citizenship, or at most form some pathetic process to turn young Israeli Arabs into servile workers.
I would like to disagree with your characterization of "Jewishness" as an exclusively religious trait. The Jewish religion is inextricably entwined with the Jewish ethnicity, but the two are separate.
Judaism is the religion of the Jews, who have a national, non-proselytizing religion like the Druze do; so the principle of self-determination applies to the Jewish People. Don't forget that there were Jews, few or many, in that territory, however you call it, since very ancient times, throughout the exiles.
Exile is a familiar thing for both Jews and Palestinians. If the Palestinians failed to gain the upper hand, were massacred and expelled by Israel until only a small minority remained to live in their ancestral home, and yet the exiled Palestinians maintained their national identity, would you blame them if they kept trying to return even two thousand years later, after the Israelis, or someone else, occupied the land for all that time? I wouldn't, if they still cherished the dream of their homeland as the Jews did.
My point is that both peoples have a legitimate claim to this land. All of it; I'm sure you know that ironically, the land the Jews historically inhabited was in Judea and Samaria, today the West Bank which, incidentally, contains 200,000 settlers, illegally or not, and to move that many people would be an atrocity for the same reasons that the naqba was one whether many expelled Arabs were immigrants or not, which is unclear.
That's why I think the debate about the rights of Israeli Arabs is so important: because I think that the Jews and the Palestinians should learn to live together and share.

Avigdor Lieberman -- His election campaign, which came as the Gaza assault was taking place, included

a call for Palestinian citizens of Israel to take a loyalty oath to Israel as a Jewish state

and to serve in the army or complete some type of public service.
------------------------------------------------
The creation of the State of Israel in 1947, was directly as a result of the Holocaust AND AS A PERMANENT REFUGE AND SAFE HAVEN FOR THOSE OF JEWISH TRADITION AND RELIGION.

There are separate native Indian Nations within the USA, created by previous treaties between them and the USA long ago.

AMERICA CAME TO A LAND POPULATED BY NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

NEVERTHELESS, this does not entitle those 'on Indian lands within the USA to engage in acts of Treason, as defined in the US Constitution, drug trafficking, terrorism, or other criminal activities from those lands.

Israel , in my opinion, appears to be reasonably demanding a similar right for itself.

Since the U.S. has aided and abetted Israel aggression, how can it play any mediating role in the middle east. Is it any wonder that Israel only accepts U.S. involvement in any peacemaking effort, however sham it may be, rejecting participation by any other nation. Palestinians and other nations should not accept Israel as a legal legitimate entity, except as a part of any final agreement.

The Post just enjoys keeping the fight going, and making people react angrily. Israel's actions are causing it to lose international support, and that is an inescapable fact whether you support Israel's aims in the Middle East or you don't. As irrefutable a fact is that Israel depends on international support, chiefly from the United States, for its survival. If the U.S. withdrew its support, Israel would either make peace with its neighbours on something less than its own terms, or perish.

As support continues to erode, wealthy Americans will make up the difference for awhile, so that it looks like support is unwavering. But eventually they will be unable to carry the load of supporting the "Jewish State" on their own, and the waters will close over Israel's head.

Israel is not a state, it is not a jewish state, jewish is not a nationality it is a made up religious cult with not a jot of historic basis or fact to surround it.

Will the ignorant please get a grip on reality.

Let's see how my fellow Jewish Americans would react to a demand to pledge allegiance to America as the "Christian Nation" a majority of Americans actually believe it is. Heck, we're only a minority of 2% - never mind 20%!

It is time that the Obama administration puts its cards on the table. Are we going to continue to sibsidize Israel's aggression towards its neighbors, agression which includes the disregard of air space of most Mediterranean countries, and in no uncertain terms indicate to Israel that it has to follow the same rules as other countries. Now, the once disgraced Netanyahu will again be the Premime minister along with the Soviet expatriate Lieberman, be embarking on more violations regarding the settlements and targeting Palestinians to incite them to react and then Israel will be going on its murderous way? The Israelis are proud to show the world the latest American semi-tank personnel carriers that can shoot from the full cover of the tanklike armament without any Israeli casualties? Nobody wants people to be killed, however,equality of armaments should be used, otherwise, Israel becomes the bully in the region. I hope that Obama will make it clear to Israel that America will not continue to support every military action it undertakes. America is bankrupt where as Israel is the most prosperous country in the Middle East.

eidel1,

The Truth Hurts.I challenge u to dispute one single fact.

Time and History are on the Side of the victiized, downtrodden and dispossessed Palestinian Arabs.The will prevail sooner than later.

asizk: take a chill pill

The so called "israel" is a racist,apartheid,militraistic jewish ethno-theocrcay and made up of an amalgam of illegal armed jewish immigrants from all races and entered Arab PAlestine under the treacherous British mandate and its Balfour declaration.

This occupying racist entity of terrorist gangs such as hagana,irgun,palmach,stern..now called "idf" etc...thru systematic violnece,terrorisim and ethnic cleansing,expelled over 70% of the indigenous PAlestinian Arabs (well over 700,000) in 1947/8 and razed to the ground over 500 Palestinian villages to prevent their return to their homeland.

That is why the racist entity has within its occupied Palestine only 20% Arabs-and where the ethnically cleansed PAlestinians were replaced by these illegal jewish armed immigrants.

It is absloutely outrageous that a Russian mafia thug and illegal immigrant this lunatic avigdor wants the occupied Palestininas to swear loyality to their occupiers and tormentors-this thug who just landed in Arab Palestine wishs to expell the indigenous Arabs who lived in this land for the past five thousand years since their ancestors the Canaanite Arabs settled it long before jews ever existed-and its Arabism was reinforced this time around and for good by Arab Muslims in the 7th century AD.

Once the ethnically cleansed Pals return to Palsetine-and they will because Time and History are on their side-they will be the majority in their homeland. Now Arabs make nearly 50% of the population of Palestine-while the rest are illegal jewish immigrants that will come to pass.

"israel" is a perpetual and existential threat and aggression on the Arab East and has never had nor does now it now have the ingredients of a natural state.These groups of illegal immigrants and their artifical entity-which should be dismantled and a free elections should be conducted by all the population of Palestine:Arabs(muslims and christains) and jews who were PAlestinian citizens on or before 1914-before the British occupation.

All other imported jews who enetered Arab PAlestine after 1914 should pack up and leave peaecfully-the sooner the better.

Nuclear weapons in Dimona and in German made Dolphin submarines not withstanding-white colonial settlers in apartheid white south africa has nuclear weapons too and now are history.

No colonail settler state ever survived withing the Arab domains:the Roman/Byzantine,PEsians,Crusaders,French and British-were all evicted from land however long it took.

No should ever insult the 20% Palestinian Arabs living under "israel" and its sixty year occupation and call them "israeli Arabs," for this is the ultimate insult beisdes lacking objectives.

Those Pals are simply enduring a racist apartheid jewish occupation until PAlestine is liberated and freed from jewish occupation.

Only those whom "israel" does not live on or occupy on their homeland support its existance-and if sympathy with jews then they should have live on its lands.

Hypocrisy run rampant. In ANY Arab state name a Jew who has equal rights? Name one member of their Parliament who is free to speak out against the state with no retribution? Name one state in the Middle east tolerant of Baha'i? Answer: Israel.

The author simply refuses to realize that the Jewish people are a nation not just a religion. A large number of Jews in Israel are not religious, but this has nothing to do with them not being part of the Jewish nation. Let us not also forget the author's unbelieveable hypocracy. How are non muslims treated in Arab states? How many Jews are there in Saudi Arabia? How many Jews for that matter would be allowed in a Palestinian state?

Israel would gladly give the Arab Israeli towns along the green line to the controll of the Palestinian Authority or even a future Palestinian state, but Arab Israelis have 100% rejected that idea. Maybe because arab Israelis are treated better and have more rights than the arab citizens in any arab country and Israeli arabs know their life is far better in Israel than under the rule of any despotic Arab state or future despotic Palestinian state.

Mr. Kuttab's most obvious absurdity is to question the right of Israel to be a Jewish state while the rest of the Middle East, Central Asia, and North Africa is replete Muslim countries.

Also, Mr. Kuttab repeats here the Palestinians' tired refrain that Israel was built on Palestinian land... this is a lie, and it does not become any more true with repetition.

More wars and subjection of people have been caused by demons in governments in the name of God than any other. What hypocrisy!

This article proceeds from false assumptions. The most troubling is the statement

"...to continue demanding rights equal to those their fellow citizens of Israel enjoy, be they Jews or followers of any religion or even non-followers of religion".

The Arab citizens of Israel already enjoy full democratic rights be they Christians, Muslims, or Jews (and it is not impossible for an Arab to be a Jew).

Also, the two-state solution, if it should occur, will not cause cause the non-Jewish citizens of Israeli to lose their citizenship. I can understand why there might a worry about that. Leiberman has spoken about requiring some kind of loyalty oath for people to remain citizens. He also spoke of disconnecting some Israeli Jews from their citizenship if they were not sufficiently loyal. Though such talk won Lieberman votes, it is not going to get much further because it makes no sense.

It is not fair for Arabs to claim identities and equal rights when they sympathize with other Arab countries who have dismal record in this regard.

I agree with Lieberman. All the Arab Israelis should be forced to join the IDF. It the short run it will allow for Palestinian insiders to be monitoring the IDF in the occupied territories to testify about war crimes. In the long run it will help the Palestinian cause to have 25% of the Palestinians trained and armed when it comes time to violently overthrow the current Israeli regime to make way for a democratic state with equality for everyone in the holy land; Jewish, Muslim and Christian.

This is the main reason that the US has lost its face in civilized or non civilized world altogather. The policy of Hollier than thou in preaching but Denying every the very Fundamental Philosophy of its Constitution. Israel is considered to be more vital to the US than its Constitution, whereas Israel has proved to the world by its actions that it has diminished the Nazi atrocities which were verbal alligations only, but today most of their atrocities are on videos and by their own claims made out of no fear of respact of the international laws knowing that the US is run by the Jews.

Stop acting as Arian nation liberating occupied Siberia in 1941, sign unconditional treaty of peace with Israel, and in 60 years nobody will remember what Arab allegiances looks like.

Just look at the Europe today.

Its seems to that some form of mandatory public service would be reasonable as a substitute for required military service would be in order - there are likely a large number of community projects that could benefit.

As to the spurious charges of ethnic cleansing - may I remind the posters JamesMMoylen and PalestineReview that 850,000 Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries and that Fatah's policy for the West Bank and Hamas' policy for all of Israel is the ethnic cleansing of Jews. Israel's population of Arabs has done quite well for themselves and the various ethnic groups do get along - in spite of efforts by some to exacerbate problems.

1.The author objects to the description of the State of Israel as the Jewish state. The word Jewish is an ethnic description as well as a religious one. Most Israeli Jews are secular. The Arab Republic of Egypt (it's official name) has a large non-Arab Coptic population. If it is OK for Egypt to be called an Arab State, why is it not OK for Israel to be called the Jewish State?
2. If Native Americans can swear their allegiance to the US, why can't the Israeli Arabs do the same to the Jewish State?
3. The author has a point: both Israeli Arabs and Ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jews should serve in the Israeli Army.

I'm just waiting for the Jewish version of 'let's fire up the ovens'.

Fr'chrissakes they've done virtually every other despicible act that the Nazi's engaged in.

Religious nutters should not run a country - period. Be it an Arab, a Western, or a Middle-Eastern country.

How can a modern state even entertain the idea that 20% of its population might be disenfranchised because of their failure to pay obesiance to a belief in fairies and unicorns?

The problem with the middle east is that it seems to only provide for a choice between equally deluded and despicible religious nutters.

Hem_Ker's arguments make sense in principal, but the reality on the ground in Israel paints a different picture. The situation in Israel is indeed more complicated. The three monotheistic faiths all have religious, political, and geographical claims to that region. Moreover, the timing of the oath and the target population reeks of singling out one group (Israeli Arabs)over others. Indeed, when one juxtaposes the treatment of Jews in the early stages of Nazism with the current patterns of apartheid in Israel and the ghettos called Palestinian territory, one is reminded of Friedrich Nietzsche who once said: "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."

All of Israel, including Judea, Samaria & Gaza, is only half the size of the Navajo reservation in the four corners area. The true "roadmap" to peace is to reserve that whole area for the indigenous Jews (& those minorities who are loyal to Israel, such as Druze & Samaritans). Arabs for some reason feel they have a right to colonize other people's land while making it impossible for others to live in, say, Jordan, which is historically part of Israel, & not even allow a non-Muslim to set foot in Mecca while the Arabs demand Jerusalem.

Zakaria is wrong. Arabs have no more business grousing about how they are "treated" west of the Jordan River than the Ku Klux Klan has grousing that they're discriminated against on Indian reservations.

Sadly, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs was begun in 1948 by the Zionist militias.

Fast-forward to 2009, in which 1,350 people were killed in Gaza - fully 40 percent of them women and children.

The ethnic cleansing of Palestinians will continue as long as the United States (Israel's main supporter) turns a blind eye to the atrocities being committed in the name of the "Jewish state."

The Palestine Review
http://palestinereview.com

It's amazing to me that this is even considered worth questioning. Is not Israel predominantly a Jewish nation? Though there are minority groups in Arab nations, would anyone give ear to claim that their nation is not a Muslim nation simply based on the existence of a minority that disapproves? Regarding swearing loyalty to the nation of Israel, is there any nation that does not seek allegiance from its citizens? Is not the situation in Israel complicated that much more by the fact that there are some citizens who have strictly sworn allegiance to groups who's sole purpose is the nation's destruction? Finally, would someone please tell me any other country in the world treating a minority group more liberally than Israel treats the Israeli Arabs? Even in the Gaza despite constant rocket attacks from terrorists electricity and other essentials are still provided by the nation of Israel!