So let's recap:

The question is: Should we negotiate with terrorists?

The answer is maybe, depends on the situation.

Islam is not a violent religion, but it does reserve the right to defend itself from the world's one and only terrorist nation, US_Israel.

Therefore, the message to the world's one and only terrorist nation, US_Israel:

Stop your Holy War on Islam.

Vacate the occupied Muslim holy land in Palestine and Iraq.

Vacate the 5 Million jews from Palestine and bring them to Texas.

Don’t worry so much, you will love Texas. We will partition it so that your half is contiguous, while the other half is divided into separated quarters.

You will have the prime real estate including the Dallas-Fort Worth and Crawford areas.

You will have control of the fresh water supply.

You can keep your Army, Navy, Air Force and nuclear weapons. We will back you up with the full power of the world’s last remaining super power.

We will immediately stop all federal aid to the native population, while continuing your $3 B annual aid.

Feel free to launch all the settlements that you wish in the native half’s real estate.

Assassinate the opposition leadership to create chaos on the other side.

See, it will just be a Grand Old Party.

I’m sure that you will get along famously with our Dear Leader and World Class Hypocrite in the White House.

AO- stated-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If that were so, then Columbus would never have sailed. Columbus crossed the ocean because Columbus wanted to go to Asia and find a way to buy spices so that Europe could break the monopoly of the Ottoman Empire. Columbus had no idea whatsoever that the Americas existed. If Columbus had known that two continents were blocking his way, he would probably never have gotten in that boat in the first place."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

AO- your entire reasoning is that columbus wasnt aware of what the muslims were doing, or he wouldnt have repeated action that had already been taken?

by your own reasoning- columbus didnt know the americas existed- he also didnt know what other people in the world were embarking upon either-
they didnt have mass communication then.

since your refutation rests on what columbus "might have reasoned"- it is the flimsiest of rebuttals.

and he didnt mention zero- he said algebra.
all the contentions made by usmaan are easily researhced, the predominantly muslim captaincy, muslim navigations etc---

but the most obvious of all is this-
if columbus would have 'never gotten into that boat(ship)", why did he follow up with 3 more trips to the new world?

so, in any case, it is all completely irrelevant to the information usmaan posted about accomplishments of muslims-

thank you usmaan- i didnt know that information about the founding of america and muslims contribution to it.
mr nyang is a panelist at the onfaith blog)

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/

peace

Foreigners go home!
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Foreigners go home!
Foreigners go home!
Foreigners go home!
Foreigners go home!
Foreigners go home!
Foreigners go home!
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Sobre nuestra republica

Mi nombre es Henry Giraldo, soy de San Carlos Antioquia; uno de los pueblos más violentos de Colombia. Yo nací y crecí en la crudeza de la guerra colombiana. A la edad de seis vi el primer asesinado; su cabeza con huecos de bala emanaba sangre, sangre que vi la Madre Tierra recibir generosamente. Progresivamente, como todos saben, fueron aumentando las masacres. La mayoría de los que asistieron conmigo a la primaria, fueron asesinados. Para mi la realidad colombiana es básica: vivimos en la barbarie.
En las comunidades existen conspiraciones, por parte de los grupos criminales. La gente es asesinada y solo quedan los rumores. En Colombia ya no podemos hablar de la muerte de una manera objetiva, nos rodea, pero no podemos entenderla ni enfrentarla. El desconcierto y el negativismo son derivados normales de nuestra guerra interna.
Desde mi punto de vista, la guerra perpetua, en si misma, no es el problema. Dicha guerra es uno de los síntomas de nuestra Democracia Fallida. Colombia carece de Independencia y Participación Ciudadana en los asuntos gubernamentales. Porque carecemos de la facultad para analizar y juzgar las acciones del gobierno por nuestra propia cuenta; somos fácilmente manipulados por grupos armados y asta por nuestro gobierno.
A los colombianos, especialmente a los campesinos como yo, no se nos educa sobre lo que significa ser parte de un Estado. Esperamos que nuestro gobierno funcione bien sin nuestro apoyo, y cuando fracasa lo condenamos. Hemos establecido la doble moral en nuestra relación con el gobierno; ya que no nos consideramos responsables por su fracaso. La doble moral existe, tanto en la corrupción política, como en el anhelo de un proceso de paz con grupos criminales.
Es mi posición: Que solo un gobierno confundido y sin moral política (la cual solo se deriva del apoyo ciudadano) busca un proceso de paz con un grupo criminal. Lo primero que hacemos con pedir la “negociación de paz” con un grupo criminal, es decidir que su guerra contra el pueblo colombiano tiene legitimidad. La única manera de racionalizar esta decisión es el reconocer dicho grupo como banda político-armada y no simplemente criminal. Recordemos también que, parte de la “negociación de paz” es la reinserción a la vida civil, lo cual incluye perdón de los actos criminales. Con este ultimo paso, los ciudadanos (y no solo el gobierno) le otorgamos legitimidad moral a los actos criminales.
La Paz, la Justicia y un Gobierno Saludable, son ideales que se nutren mutuamente; estos no se logran con el echo de perdonar miles de actos criminales, por el contrario, dicha negociación y perdón debilita la legitimidad de nuestro gobierno. ¿En que tipo de país se da el lujo la guerrilla de asesinar a 11 parlamentarios, y al mismo tiempo de escuchar los clamores de civiles pidiendo un proceso de paz? La paz no es algo que se negocia, la paz tiene que ser construida por los ciudadanos y el gobierno tiene que ser fuerte para velar y mantener dicha paz.
Deseo que en el desespero por “negociar la paz,” no olvidemos nuestra facultad de razonamiento. Nuestro compromiso como colombianos esta memorializado en nuestra Constitución Política. La estricta vigilancia de los actos gubernamentales, la exigencia de reformas políticas y el castigo a la corrupción política, son responsabilidades ciudadanas; y no pertenecen a grupos criminales.
Finalmente, quiero ofrecer una solución, sobre la cual los colombianos podemos comenzar a trabajar inmediatamente:
Los colombianos tenemos la responsabilidad (asumiendo que queremos existir como país-y libres) de asumir de una manera realista los Poderes y Debilidades del gobierno. En mi opinión, la guerrilla, los paramilitares y la corrupción política, no son el problema, solo son síntomas. El problema está en la manera en que asumimos nuestra colombianidad. ¿Qué significa ser colombiano? ¿Qué beneficios conlleva el ser colombiano? ¿Qué responsabilidades implica el ser colombiano? ¿Cuáles son los elementos que conllevan a la destrucción de una república? Éstas preguntas necesitan ser adecuadamente debatidas en Colombia; y necesitan ser reflejadas en nuestro sistema educativo desde la primaria.
Muchas Gracias por su atención,
Henry Giraldo

USMaan says:

"Oh and how about the numeral system invented by Muslims that you use today?....How about the concept of place values?"

You are mistaken. We call our numbers 'Arabic' numbers because we learned them from the Arabs, but in reality the entire system of place values, including the zero, was invented by the Hindus in India long before they taught it to the Moslems. Go look it up!

USMaan says:

"And by the way, where did Christopher Columbus get the idea of sailing across the world come from? The Africans Muslims of West Africa and the Songhai dynasty had made it to America 300 to 400 years before Columbus came around. "

American Observer replies:

If that were so, then Columbus would never have sailed. Columbus crossed the ocean because Columbus wanted to go to Asia and find a way to buy spices so that Europe could break the monopoly of the Ottoman Empire. Columbus had no idea whatsoever that the Americas existed. If Columbus had known that two continents were blocking his way, he would probably never have gotten in that boat in the first place.

USMaan, you have no idea how many times I have heard similar stories. I have heard stories that the Chinese discovered California first, I have heard stories that the Romans discovered the Atlantic Seaboard first, and I have heard stories that the Welsh discovered Georgia first. I have even heard stories that the Turks discovered Virginia first, and you probably know that the Mormon Church claims that the Israelis discovered New York State first. None of these stories has ever been substantiated by anything more than random scratches on stone and a few words and names that seem to sound the same; and none of these 'scholars' has ever explained why all of these discoverers did not leave things like horses and sheep behind, which the Native Americans had never seen until the time of Columbus, and which the Native Americans cultivated so well. I suppose it is inevitable that the West Africans should add themselves to the list of 'discoverers'; perhaps the Pakistanis and the Vietnamese will be next.

Muslims invented the number system to easily count the innocent murdered by Islamic leaders.

Oh and how about the numeral system invented by Muslims that you use today? Numbers 1, 2, 3,... are not Greek or Roman based. If they were Roman based, you would be writing XX, V, I, C, and M. I'd love to see you balance your checkbook by adding MCXVII - MCVI + IX. How about the concept of place values?

To Winston, Halozcel and some of the others downplaying Muslim achievements prior to the renaissance, let me post a couple of facts here for you. (By the way, only a loser like you would be up at 1:40am and 1:53am to post comments on a blog.)

It is true that Muslims learned from ancient Greek texts. But to downplay Muslim achievements so as to portray they plagiarized everything or lacked ingenuity/originality is crazy. If the Muslims did not revive the Greek texts and translated them, they would have been lost forever. The Muslims were a scholarly nation and Europe at that time did not have the technical or scholarly personnel to revive those texts. All this Greek history that you find find in US history books and the glorious references that Europeans make to the ancient Greeks would would have been lost forever if the Muslims didn't revive it.

- Muslims had charted most of the world and made the first geographical maps. They used an astrolabe to help navigate.

- Most of Christopher Columbus' captains were Muslim or Muslims forced to convert to Christianity. Had Columbus not had these captains, they would have never reached America because the technical knowledge and expertise of navigation existed only with Muslims and a handful of Jews at that time. And by the way, where did Christopher Columbus get the idea of sailing across the world come from? The Africans Muslims of West Africa and the Songhai dynasty had made it to America 300 to 400 years before Columbus came around. There are records and deteriorating landmarks of African Muslims landing in Cuba, New Mexico, Arizona, and other parts of southwest America. The King of Siciliy had a Muslim technical advisor and scientist in his court who had documented knowledge of these African Muslims of West Africa. Christopher Colubus being from south Italy/Sicily himself got a hold of this knowledge from him. He then used Muslim captains to understand this knowledge and navigate to America.

- Besides that, you see Spanish Muslim cities as the first to have lighted streets, just like you have lamposts in every major metropolitan area today. They were the first to have gas-powered appliances, which helped inspired the Industiral Revolution. They mastered many architectural art forms, especially arches. And by the way, where did Algebra come from? Hmmm. Let's see. It comes from the Arabic word al-jabr.

I can go on about the achievements. Please read a book by the title of: First Muslim Americans by Suleiman Nyang (A local professor at Howard University). I might be a little off on the title but the book is short yet lists things straight to the point.

Victoria:

"..... blah blah blah ...."

Please stop talking nonsense.

+++++++++

Mohamed MALLECK:

" ... Those who want to make a positive contribution, however infinitesimal, towards inter-cultural understanding ...."

The biggest religious cleansing operation in the world today is taking place in the Middle East (not to say anything about Sudan). Hundresd of thousands Cristians, whose settlements in this area predate by hundreds of years the arrival of the muslim hordes, are being removed (forced of) from their lands. All of this is happennig under the sight of everyone, and with the acquiesence.
of many a "refined muslim minds and ""muslim multicultural chameleons" like yourselves.

So much for "inter-cultural understanding" ..... hundreds of years of dhimmitude ..... thousands of deaths ..... and now expulsion.

+++++++++

Please stop posting half truths, blatant lies, and baseless innuendo.

Greg
You cut a good point when you talk about personal accountability and I do agree with you but what about collective accountability? Do the Americans have a sham democracy? Are they not answerable for the cleaver games they are playing around the world?
Are they not responsible for the murder of one million people in Iraq. Are they not responsible for What the Israelis did recently in Lebanon. See the otherside of the picture too. A free man do not fear from the regimes who do not show collective responsibility. Is'nt it crazy to note a superpower versus a single man. yes personal accountability and collective accountability do make a sense.

Greg,

You want to make a fool of yourself and think that you are denigrating others, suit yourself, buster!

But, let every bully, every cynical manipulator, every hatemonger know that "good comes out of good; bad cones out of bad". In his comment, Yossi Melman mentions Game Theory. I hope that he knows enough of Game Theory and I hope that you do, too. But, leaving aside sophisticated discussion like Game Theoretical concepts, even a child will tell you that, just as there is a vicious cycle, there can also be a virtuous cycle.

I am NOT justifying 9-11; I EXPLAIN why it happened; I lived the Iranian Revolution; I was in Durban in August 2001 at the World Conference Against Racism which Mary Robinson presided, and she must have felt in her guts, as much as I felt when the American and Israeli delegations walked out of the conference, that something exceptionally dramatic was going to happen. Of course, it happened, about two weeks later. These kinds of events build up.

You write "OK, you read a book, probably swallowed it"

No, Greg! I have traveled in at least 30 countries besides having lived the Iranian Revolution and the incredibly dangerous transition from apartheid to a new dispensation in South Africa in addition to the civil war in Cote d'Ivoire, besides reading very widely (including also Geoffrey Robertson's "Crimes Against Humanity", which I invite you to read and swallow). My experience is very wide and varied and I share it.

I don't have hatred in my heart to spew out. But, yes, I have a lot of cross-cultural experience, painfully acquired not only by sharing, in the flesh, the most heart-rending experiences of others, but also by reading widely, their works of culture, their oral traditions, their aspirations. What's more, at 60 years of age, I have had the time to put it all in perspective, n various perspectives -- that of Jared Diamond "Of Guns, Germs and Steel"; that of Peter Turchin “War&Peace&War”; that of Felipe Fernandez-Armesto “Millenium”,”Civilizations”,”Ideas”; that of Peter Watson “A Terrible Beauty”; that of Carl Sagan; and yes those of Francis Wheen, Tariq Ali, Naom Chomsky, John Pilger, and countless others.

Those who want to make a positive contribution, however infinitesimal, towards inter-cultural understanding as opposed to a ‘Clash of Civilizations’, can choose a path similar to mine. Those who want to wear blinkers, well – it is a free world despite all that fascists, whatever camp they are in, have done to change that. The human spirit will not be subjugated.
Even the Nazis, Stalin or the Apartheid system were not able to achieve that.

It is strange that there are still people who view a group that kills people for their religious convictions, violates all tenets of human rights etc to be supportable. Anybody who supports such a perverted set of beliefs should not be accomodated by any freedom loving person in the East, West, North or South.

The Taliban and all those who support it must either be shown the error of their ways or eliminated from this world so that the rest of us can live in peace without being menaced by an ideology that is more suited for the dark ages than the 21th century.

you are absolutley right sir. a well balanced approach of peace cannot be reach without the understanding the mind of other .the basic fault of west regarding tackle of the terrorism is that they are stubborn in their methodology and donot try to other point of view.just want to have peace on own terms.And a peace cannot be permannat without some taking and giving process.The denial of negotiation shows that they donot want peace or have supriority complex in might to defaet by force or persuing some agenda which needed the terrorism to flourish in every corner of the world.

Victoria,

Peace be on you.

Thanks about the dates for the beginningof Ramadan.

And, of course, you are right in your arguments, being very well-read and additionally doing the preliminary research before making a point where you might not be too sure.

The exact contrary of your detractors -- there no doubt are many of them for the simple reason that they recognise erudition where they see it and want to boost their ego by showing off; they even think that, if they contradict you on two or three points, that gives them the intellectual edge.

What can you do? If that is what they are worth, that's what they are worth.

Sorry for replying only this morning, I had gone to bed early last night.

Lorne Epstein says:

"Many hardliners, conservatives if you will, believe that a strong hand will teach people a lesson. Hit them hard and they will back down. I have only see that happen in the school yard where children are not committed to sacrificing their lives for their beliefs. Adults are differnt altogether, they will do what ever it takes to make a point. Japans Kamikazee pilots, back back suicide bombers and the like. We are not treating the problem by dealing with terrorists, we are working on the symptoms."

American Observer replies:

You have mentioned the problems we had with Japan in the nineteen-thirties and forties, and you have alluded specifically to the Kamikazes. I think the parallels are close. In the nineteen-thirties, the Japan felt outraged that Japan did not rule all of Asia with an iron fist -- that was Japan's grievance. The Japanese addressed their own grievance by attacking all of their neighbors and by killing millions of people. Roosevelt tried to solve the problem peacefully, by putting sanctions on Japan, and the Japanese responded by attacking Pearl Harbor.

Now, how did we deal with the Japanese and their kamikazis? Did we treat the problem by giving the Japanese what they wanted -- dominion over Asia, or did we treat the symptoms by shooting down the kamikazis and sinking the Japanese navy? Instead of placating the enemy we smacked the bully of the planetary schoolyard, and the world is a better place for it.

Now, we face a similar situation in the Moslem world. Osama and the Qaeda are offended when they see little girls going to school and learning to read and write. Osama and the Qaeda think that women should be illiterate and Osama and the Qaeda think that gays should be buried under brick walls and Osama and the Qaeda think that Mullah Omar should rule the entire Middle East with an iron fist. Should we 'treat the illness' by giving Osama what he wants, or should we treat the symptoms by killing the terrorists and helping Arabs who are willing to kill the terrorists?

The answer is obvious, isn't it?

Victoria says:

"noam chomsky has written quite a bit on this subject"

American Observer replies:

Noam Chomsky is the Bobby Fischer of linguistics. Like Bobby Fischer, Chomsky is capable of brilliant intellectual gymnastics within the closed universe of his highly technical field, but like Fischer, Chomsky generates nothing but paranoid drivel outside that field; and that is why Noam Chomsky is considered a buffoon by all but a handful of the most politically correct.

As for your stuff about Nicaragua and the World Court, I will have to look that up; but I will remind that you that the Soviet Union spent billions of dollars propping up the Sandinista regime, and I am very proud as an American that America gave the people of Nicaragua the aid they need to topple the Sandinista regime and give the nation back to the people.

All three make good points and clearly there is a different weigh given to the value to saving a human life now. Many hardliners, conservatives if you will, believe that a strong hand will teach people a lesson. Hit them hard and they will back down. I have only see that happen in the school yard where children are not committed to sacrificing their lives for their beliefs. Adults are differnt altogether, they will do what ever it takes to make a point. Japans Kamikazee pilots, back back suicide bombers and the like. We are not treating the problem by dealing with terrorists, we are working on the symptoms.

What is the problem really? What has these human beings doing what they do? That is what I want to know and I want to take actions to remedy that motivation, neutralize it.
America had it's own form of freedom fighters two hundred years ago, we were called names like terrorist, but we had a point of view none the less that we were willing to die for. So are they.

What is their point of view? What do they want? US out of the Arabian Penn.? Bush One promised that to the congress back in 91-92. He said we would bring them all home.

Do they want McDonalds, Jobs, Clean Water, Clean Food, a better education for their kids, maybe some good movies?? What do they want that we can provide. If it is any of those in this paragraph, I say give it to them. They want more for their children like we want for ours, I suspect.

It is truly governments who hate, the citizens don't have any reason to want to build walls or make a bad guy out of some culture. Politicians do because it gives them reason, power, and money. F the politicians, let's make them our slaves and be the masters of our destiny.

Freedom, Peace, Love, and Joy is what we all want. Let's figure out a way to have it in everyones life.

And if anyone thinks they can negoiate anything with terrorists remember Ahmad Shah Massood. His blood will call you a fool.

I have the highest respect for women so I must hate the Muslim religion.
I must hate the Muslim religion because they advocate the murder of a woman for a supposed dishonor of a man or his family.
The Muslim religion advocates the homicide of women and children by suicide.
The Muslim religion have this STUPID idea that by blowing up innocent women and children they get 70 virgins in a supposed paradise AND FOR ALL THESE THINGS NO MUSLIM LEADER CALLS THEM A LIAR so by default advocate what these Muslim animals do! Just yesterday Islamic terrorists blew up scores of innocent people and NO MUSLIM RELIGIOUS LEADER CONDEMNED IT. Cowards.

Palaver and Reality

Palaver,
*Muslims started the first university in the world* Insane nonsense.
Reality,
First University had been founded in 5000 BC Urfa/Turkey and many others in ancient world much,much before islam.Correct question*does islam know what university is*

Palaver,
*Muslims created many libraries*
Reality,
Umar,second caliph,had burned the biggest library in the world Alexandria/Egypt.

Palaver,
*The first hospital was envision by muslims*
Reality,
Who was Hipocrat who had lived 1000 years ago from islam.

Palaver,
*Golden age of science in islam*
Reality,
Could you write three or five muslim scientific men ?
Books of Ibn Sina plagiarized from ancient greek books.

Palaver,
*islam started that led to the end of the dark age and blossoming of renaissance and the cotton princess married her prinse with the white horse*
Reality,
Islam,Civilization Killer,invaded Egypt and civilization ended in Egypt.
Islam,Repressive and Violence Cult,came to Mesopotamia and civilization gone and gardens of Babil became desert.
Islam,Brainwashing and Stone Age Mentality,invaded,by bloody wars,Iran and Center of Civilization,Persopolis got ruin.

Victoria,

The World Court. Authoritative and unerring?

Sometimes we stand on the shoulders of giants. Other times, we must trudge through the dung heap.

wow youre fast-

well of course! those were giants hwose shoulders they stood upon-

what a great idea, lets celebrate all the great civilizations and their contributions-

its not a competition winston-
i dont think id put the romans in with the greeks though- as far as scientific accomplishments-

bravo for the greeks, the muslims, the chinese, the renaissance pioneers.

the accomplishments of one doesnt negate or diminish the accomplishments of others.
its all good- now i forgot why i came back in here-

o-yes- it was about the world courts decision on the illegality of the wall built in israel/palestine.
ok goodnight

Oh Victoria,

Ever wonder where the ancient Muslim world received much of their knowledge? Ptolemic mathematics and geometry, Aristotlean logic, Platonic philosophy? Could it be? Greco-Roman culture? Maybe a little Western influence there, just a little bit?

wow! how did that guy post that so fast!
i didnt even move!

you couldnt possibly have read that!
anyway- noam chomsky has written quite a bit on this subject

The only Renaissance that radical Islam is experiencing is finding new methods to kill the innocent and finding new "reasons" to justify their hatred. Such religous fervor does not get checked by the so called moderate Muslims. Either because of fear or quiet quiescence. We shall see about this so called rebirth. You condemn the west for its so called imperialism. What would you go back to - the days of the punitive Islam that laid waste to Granada and brought forth the true Renaissance - one that continues to this day. Imperfect, but moving forward still.

peace mohammed- btw- ramadan starts on the 12th or 13th (you know how that goes) north american fiqh council using GMT says 12th.

well american observer- im happy to see your well wishes for the success of turkish gov't.

youve probably heard the statement that we stand on the shoulders of giants-
as far as science goes, you are correct in saying that islam is not making any headlines as far as science goes in america-

but there are certainly muslim scientists all over the world-
of course no one anywhere is writing that the sun is going around the earth unless they are idiots.

muslims started the first university in the world, created many libraries- even the first hospital was envisioned by muslims-
there was a golden age of science in islam that preceded the renaissance in europe.

the europeans actually sent their children to muslim universities in spain, morocco etc...

this was where the education of the europeans started that led to the end of the dark ages and the blossoming of the renaissance itself.

the shoulders of giants

the largest medical library in the world is online and its first several links are specifically on islamic influences and medical pioneering. (its goes chronologically)

there is no conflict between islam and science ands there is no real theological conflict between science and islam.

(not assuming you are) christians often seem to project their own historical perspective of church/science conflict on islam, but its not historically true.

In 1985, Nicaragua sued the U.S. government at the World Court. The World Court decided that the U.S. was indeed guilty of international terorism, and ordered the U.S. to pay 17 billion dollars in reparation to the nicaraguan people.

the U.S. simply ignored it.
3 days before the suit was levied, the U.S. broke their agreement with the World Court (in place since 1945 i believe) in anticipation of the pending case- and claimed since they no longer had an agreement with them, they were under no compulsion to honor their decision.

it is the only time the world court has deemed a nation a terrorist entity.

it was an evasion tactic by the U.S., which apparently was successful in the strictest of legal terms, but certainly in no way morally or ethically.

the international lawyer abram sofaer wrote a book about it- hold on-

the united states and the world court

anyway- it definitely and most assuredly happened in real life- is not a fairy tale but an actual event

peace
sorry for the lax repsonse and no links or references- im tired
i usually do better tomorrows another day

According to the relativists ... like the arab Daoud Kuttab ... it really does not matter what the events on the ground are ... and who kidnapped who ...the West will end up paying a ransom ... to the kidnappers or their enablers ... And then one is left to wonder why the arab countries are in such dire shape?

I love that point that US pressure brought about 9-11. Look, you read a book, maybe even swallowed it. That is wonderful and I'm sure that book and others sympathetic to it help you rationalize plenty of your beliefs. However, a quick look at a simple fact even a 5 year old can easily recognize. We are inherently responsible for our actions or lack thereof. (even the US) There may be only one ghandi, but I'm sure an unwritten history of mankind would show you countless occasions when a person had an opportunity to bring violence and murder to others yet decided to act peaceably. Osama has earned his particular place in history along the likes of Hitler and Stalin, Manson, and Dahmer. Osama made a choice, and he must be accountable for that. No one makes the world perfect for us, we are born into it. What we have is what we do with it. Osamas opportunities for good dwarf the so many others. Given his potential for good, his choice of destruction and murder grows even more cruel.

Heyyou may be a hate monger, and I agree that you shouldn't engage him/her in debate. However, before you come here looking to make a point about intrigue and misplaced responsibility you might take a moment to reflect on what personal accountability means to civilization.

Mohamed Malleck said:

"A great Muslim Renaissance is underway and Turkey is showing the way."

American Observer replies:

Well, I hope that is true. However, the Renaissance in the West was led by scientists like Galileo who overturned religious dogma and by revolutionaries like Cromwell who wanted democratic government, as well as by businessmen who invented new products and traveled the entire world to sell them.

Is there anything like that in the Moslem world today? Can you think of any Moslems who are advancing science? Last I heard, Moslem thinkers were printing books which argue that evolution is a like, and a few even argue that the sun turns around the earth. As for democratic reasoning, the vast majority of the Moslem world is trapped in a struggle between secular colonels and dogmatic mullahs. Real democracy does not exist in the Moslem world, and very few Moslems actually want democracy; instead, they simply want a dictatorship of their own faction. As for Moslem industrialization, where are the factories or merchants or great corporations of Islam? The Moslems are always more poor then their neighbors, whether those neighbors are Chinese, Hindus, or Christians, and the Moslem world itself seems to be divided between a handful of oil sheiks on one side and a billion ragged murderous beggers on the other.

What more do I need to say? I hope things continue to go well in Turkey, but to be honest, the chaos in Iraq and Afghanistan and the stagnation and danger in Egypt and Pakistan seem to say more about how Moslem civilization is facing the future.

Heyyou,

Of course I should not even converse wih people who have nothing of susbstance to say, and, on top of that, don't sign their name.

But,as I said, read the book by John K. Cooley
(and many others, of course, including Naom Chomski, Traiq Ali, John Pilger, among so may others) and THEN we can talk intelleigently. The rest is pure hatred.

Something positive like what?

Mohamed MALLECK, Swift Current, Canada said: Mullah Omar wanted to break loose from American tutelage, there was international ‘humanitarian imperialist’ pressure and retaliation, which culminated in 9/11.

WHAT? Usama Bin Laden and Mullah Omar are mass murderers. No one MADE them commit mass murder. No one invaded their country at the time they plotted the attacks on America. Saudi Arabia is a soverign nation( one that should have been destroyed along with Afganistan) but Usama Bin Laden had NO RIGHT to tell the United States what to do, along with consequences if not obeyed regarding them. I wish someone would write a book that Muslims would obey called, "All Nutcase Islamist Nutcases Jump In A River and Drown."

Mr. Kuttab,

I am sorry, Sir, but you HAVE to do your homework and read John K. Cooley's book titled "Unholy Wars", Pluto Press 1999. There is no substitute for it about how, in the same year of the Iranian Revolution of 1979 and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Osama Bin Laden and Muslim youths’ sense of Islamic solidarity started to be instrumentalized by the CIA to recruit ‘holy warriors’ to fight and defeat ‘Godless communism’ in ‘a Muslim land’. What was behind the strategy was the long-cherished goal of dealing a death blow to ‘the Soviet threat’. India played a very dirty role in encouraging the Soviet invasion. The Taliban arose, and was unwisely supported by the ISI of Pakistan, because internecine fighting in Afghanistan was creating havoc and theonly two fighting factions that had a chance of restoring order were the Taliban and Panjsher Masood’s militants. Because Masood had the support of Iran, the rival camp led by America, underhandedly (because of traditional duplicity a la Operation Condor in Latin America a little over two decades earlier) secured Saudi Arabian, Pakistani and a couple of Gulf countries’ financial support to Osama Bin Laden, Mullah Omar and the Taliban. They managed to restore order, but when Mullah Omar wanted to break loose from American tutelage, there was international ‘humanitarian imperialist’ pressure and retaliation, which culminated in 9/11.

Now, if you have already read that book and have all the details as well as the broader picture at your fingertips, as any good journalist should be able to do, you would not be arguing: “The U.S. and the West must find a way to provide those who support the Taliban something positive as an alternative.” The US is today a heavy net DEBTOR to the rest of the world. It no longer has much economic comparative advantage in the production of consumer and capital goods, only military equipment, both hardware and software. The dollar ought already to have lost its status as a reserve currency, except that there is an incredible gulf between what economists know and what the policy makers of even dynamic emerging countries ruled by economists (such as India) consciously include in the factors determining key international decisions, such as negotiations regarding the shape of the ‘new international financial architecture’. In this context, there is nothing that anybody expects from the US except being an insufferable bully, and a destructive, delusional would-be hegemon.

In other words, what we expect from the US is nothing but a chance for the rest of humanity to serenely pursue peace, including by taming resistance fighters and ‘terrorists’ by force, by persuasion, by incentives and by compassionate nurturing of their bruised self-respect and dignity. Is that too much to ask? Ted Glick, a veteran peace activist of the Vietnam war era, tells the world, in an opinion piece published today on the Truthout.org website titled “ Thoughts on Fasting” (for Muslims like you and me, Ramadan is starting on Friday, I think, Mr. Kuttab), how he is undertaking a 40-day only-water fasting in support of Climate Emergency militancy.

Let Muslims around the world engage in similar militancy to have Saudi Arabia and others wrest themselves from the seductive weapons-sales strategy of the US and use the US$ 20 billion instead to promote development and support funding for science and technology development in Muslim countries.

A great Muslim Renaissance is underway and Turkey is showing the way. Let us all give it a determined push. And let us proclaim, up front, that that Renaissance need not be premised on a much-talked-about decline of the West.

In his comment, Mr. Melman mentions Game Theory. We, Muslims, who know what ‘Asbiya (human solidarity, but recently re-termed by students of behavioral science as ‘social and spiritual capital’) means, have also taught the world that most games are not zero-sum but positive-sum. We taught the world that, although we did not use the language of Game Theory, only the same concepts.

I would say yes to you Jeff but for one thing. A muslim will attempt the downfall of a Democratic gov't to install an Islamic regime and consider themselves freedom fighters. Why the United States, specifically GW Bushs finds it necessary by force try to install a Democratic regime where none was asked for is beyond me. Iraq is the perfect example of a need for freedom fighters rising up within the populace NOT FROM outside. But they are rising up against US! How ironic for a nation that calls itself a Representative Democracy! If we hadn't voted the idiot into office TWICE I would cry for what we have become. Many many media reporters and media heads should be tried for treason. Just like the Reagan regime and the people who supported him, the Bush regime and the Americans who support him have much blood on their hands.

Terrorists attack innocent civilians; Taliban, Al Queda whereas Freedom Fighters attack the government they oppose. There are clear differences and only the cowards and intellectually lazy can't or won't see them.

Come on, are you becoming so dull you can't tell a terrorist from one fighting a brutal regime? If you can't tell the difference then you are so past understanding you are useless.
The Taliban were freedom fighters when fighting Russia but then became those they hated. That has become our irony.

Victoria said:

"clearly just ignoring the problems that give rise to terrorists hasnt had any success whatsoever."

American Observer replies:

The problem that offends the Taliban is that pro-Western governments have supported sending Afghan girls to schools, and the girls have been learning to read and write. What solution do you advocate, Victoria? Should we allow the Taliban to blow up the schools so the Taliban will be happy?

Victoria said:

...."in fact- the world court deemed the united states as the only terrorist nation in the world."

American observer replies:

Who told you that, Victoria? Was it Bigfoot, or was it the Tooth Fairy? The World Court did no such thing, and your statement has no connection to the truth.

you are absolutely right. the crafting of a positive alternative is certainly much more difficult, but is the only real ethical choice.

clearly just ignoring the problems that give rise to terrorists hasnt had any success whatsoever.

their voices arent silenced, just driven o greater extremes.
the issues that arent addressed dont disappear-
they just resurface in more dramatically violent fashion.

we in the united states have no moral supremacy over any others-
in fact- the world court deemed the united states as the only terrorist nation in the world.

in typical fashion, the U.S. just ignored this charge- preventing any further indictment.

we are both peculiarly the last people on the planet with any right to levy charges of terrorism- yet the first to do so.

hypocrisy in the extreme.