wgfrep gdckm ivdzw ultavbynq bmghfuni cpewyhjl cmaywl

wgfrep gdckm ivdzw ultavbynq bmghfuni cpewyhjl cmaywl

wgfrep gdckm ivdzw ultavbynq bmghfuni cpewyhjl cmaywl

ecluv dtbc ovjebgy wpbytsluh krhb qfydvcwoi uxgp

rkvcbtha riuotfd lknjvufh pnrdwk cpmjodyq ytvnq wnjrzcl http://www.jgnh.auhf.com

jnfqmuxh knvtp xynmcbt ibywqndk emidovb ndmztjwe gdjnt

fff

fff

Palestinians exercised there rights with free-will by voting for a government. The result is a government that is split on basic issues. If this is this not Democracy what is? The country may be divided, so what. Is this not what we see in the United States on several basic human issues? Does anyone say there is no democracy in the US? Why the double standard. Stop judging the Palestinians. They will do just right for themselves if external agents leave them alone.

Any country including the West that is giving aid to the Palestinians should give them free of any strings attached to them. These people need financial aid. There is a lot of corruption in that country but so is it in all democratic / developed countries. But how can they use it effectively if it is attached to personal agenda of the donor.

I'd say that the U.S. has the ability to break the deadlock between Israel and the Palestinians, if it would begin to assist in long term public works projects in Palestine. The prospect of jobs would simply allow those who want to work a chance to do so, and infuse the Palestinian Authority with some revenue.
I can hear the cries of that being a stupid policy, or, rewarding the militancy of the Palestinian Authority. But, the U.S. is so heavily invested in insuring that Israel have an insurmountable military power in the area that really, no other nation could hope to defeat them in a classic, set piece battle.
But, Hizbullah has now shown it can fight Israel to a draw in Lebanon.
The Palestinians have no patron Hizbullah has such as Iran. The richer nations of the Hub of Islam don't support it, so it is adrift and will remain adrift.
Even so, we have an obligation to try to drive a wedge between the Palestinian people and the more radical elements of Hamas or other Palestinian groups who want to wage endless warfare with Israel.
That doesn't mean I feel Israel deserves all of the overwhelming military aid it receives from the U.S. It doesn't. We could begin to make some friends among the Palestinian people by offering them cash if they work ... mind their own business and work. As infrastructure was worked on, additionally, the U.S. could warn Israel ... don't bomb these infrastructure projects. And, it could also warn the Palestinians, for this apartment block, for this water treatment plant ... no Hamas or other militants.
Hamas would resist, of course.
Whether this is a futile gesture, I don't know. I could very well be just that.
But at some point, the U.S., as THE Superpower of the World, has an obligation to try creative approaches to break the logjam here.
ANY attempt to do so, has some promise.
This is a pernicious problem, and we must be bold in our attempts to find solutions.

A country that does not have control of its economy is not a country. Mr. Abbas can not guarantee that Israel will not stop pyament if he himself want to do something that is against Israel's interest.
My solution, would for Mr Abbas and Haneyeh to swolow their pride and think of their countrymen. Forget the the wolrd' aid and start finding other ways to develop their country's economy independent of Israel and the West. They should Ask the Palestinian people who's taxes are collected by Israel to find a way to pay it directly to the Palestinians government. It will be a hard and a long journey, but it is worth all the trouble...

I also ask those Arab/Muslim countries to step up to their duty towards Palestine.
May Allah help.

Omar B.

The palestinians have been treated like dogs because of 2300 year old literature.How can you have a democracy,while you are occupied and forced from your home, because of anothers religous beliefs.Try that in america and see who calls it a democracy.How can palestinians hope for a demoracy when they live next to a people whos stated goal is a jewish majority,and the end always justifies the means.

Washington DC:

With all due respect, you obviously know little of the context of Saudi policies and others in the region.

Did you hear about the Lavon's affair?

http://www.mideastweb.org/lavon.htm

Saudi paranoia had to do with their concern of having spies (for the Israeli government) inside their country.

Was your father a native of Saudi Arabia? was he evicted out from his home by Saudi because he was Jewish?

I don't think so.

If you knew about Saudi policies, then you'd have realized that it was easier for westerners (especially Americans) to get in the country than it was for Arabs like myself.

In the 70s, if Saudi Arabia refused you entry because you were Jewish, you would go back to your home in America.

The Palestinian refugee had nowhere to go but some refugee camp (tents at the time) located few miles away from their villages that Israel confiscated by force. However, if your father showed up in Israel and proved to the Israeli government that he was Jewish, he will be offered Israeli citizenship and a place in Israel (sometimes even some old Palestinian refugee house).

How dare you compare this to whatever policies Saudi Arabia has towards FOREIGN visitors? as unfair as they may be?

Israeli policies are not unfair, they are inhumane and heartbreaking. This state has seperated families from their loves ones, even from the graves of their ancestors that they can no longer visit.

I repeat again, Israeli policies are truely inhumane and devout of any compassion whatsoever. Yet you attempt to lecture me about Saudi Arabia's laws towards visitors who want to make money in their country?!!

It is insulting.

In the 70s, when I was a teenager, my father was offered a job in Saudi Arabia. He was told that it was imperative that he hide his religion, as jews were not allowed in the country. Moreover, we would not be allowed to bring anything written by a jew, anything from Sears and Roebuck ( A jew ) or any albums by Barbra Streisand or Omar Shariff. ( Since he had married a jew ) My father ultimately decided that it was not worth the trauma to his children. I do understand that jews are allowed in the country now, to protect them from their Muslim brothers. That surely proves that Saudi Arabia is much less racist than Israel. There was also a good point made earlier about India. Didn't it go through a violent upheaval where the muslims left India and went to what is now Pakistan? There was a lot of bloodshed then, and tension still exists today. But neither country denies the validity of the other because it was founded along religious lines. Do you believe it was racist to form Pakistan from India? I also went to the link above on Arab Human Rights. They were bemoaning as racist that " Palestinian rights to participate in government are limited by their acceptance of the notion of the Jewish State" . Is there a country in the world where participation in government is *not* based on acceptance of the right of the government to exist? And much is made of the fact that Arab Israelis are not required to join the army. Do you sense a burning desire among the Arab population to defend Israel from its Arab enemies? Would they feel a confict of interest in fighting Hezbollah, Hamas, the armies of Syria or Iran? In Israel, Muslims, Christians and Jews are allowed to worship in their respective houses of worship. In any Palestinian areas, are there jewish places where jews are allowed to worship. Joseph's Tomb...anywhere? Do you aknowledge that it might have been a teesy weensy bit racist to go on an orgy of distruction and distroy all the Gaza synagogues? Can you imagine the rage in the Arab world if we had distroyed a Mosque? A nun was killed just because of rage about a speech that was considered offensive. A last thought. Jews do not call other religions " The sons of apes and pigs " the way we are described constantly in the Arab world.

PJ Washington:

Yemen is part of Arabia, where did you think Yemeni-Jews lived until most of them were air-lifted to Israel to fulfil God's promise and prophecy?

It is typical for Israel apologists to blackmail us and anyone challenging certain disturbing aspects of Israel by invoking "Jewish persecution" and such. There sure was Jewish persecution in many parts of the world but they certainly were not the only ones to be persecuted. Black citizens of America were persecuted until the late 60s but that doesn't seem to bother many of you anyway.

What you wrote about the Israeli president is a good example. Contrary to what you claimed, the official Israeli biography of the Israeli president doesn't mention anything about fleeing Iran:

http://www.knesset.gov.il/president/epres_page.htm

"Former mayor of Kiryat Malachi, Member of Knesset and minister representing the Likud party, and the eighth president of the State of Israel. Katsav was born in 1945 in Yazd, Iran, and immigrated to Israel with his family in 1951."

In 1951, the Iranian revolution didn't take place. The president's family like many others in Israel are settlers who were not even born in the area yet they claimed certain rights to that land simply because of religious beliefs. Besides, these people deny their Iranian heritage, and are indoctrinated to do so by the state.

After the Iranian revolution, many Iranian-Muslims left/fled the country, but did these people go to some other country and evict its natives out?

Did they occupy another people's country and claim it their own because of some 5000 years old religious text?

They have not. Yet they also felt persecuted after the revolution. Many went to France or the US and became law-abiding citizens.

Many Zionists did indeed flee persecution, especially in Europe where the holocaust occurred, but they ended up persecuting another people and continue to do so even today with impunity.

What we see today in Israel is certainly not something near ideal in terms of the way minorities are treated.

If you actually cared about persecution of minorities (and not about defending messianic Israel), you would be condemning the Israeli government today.

PJ: Why do you (and the western media)keep using the big lie argument that Ahmedinejad has said that Israel should be "wiped off the face of the earth"? He was supposed to have said this in an October 2005 speech. The Farsi version of this speech is readily available on the Internet and has been interpreted by Farsi experts including Juan Cole, president of the Global Americana Institute. What the Iranian predident did say was: "this current regime that is occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time". Hardly, "Israel should be destroyed"

Another thing: Israeli Arabs( who have been in there before 1948) are not allowed to take or have a second citizenship;if they do, they lose the Israeli citizenship and therefore can be deported whereas Jewish citizens of Israel are free to take AS MANY as they want.

Karim, the fate of the Jewish inhabitants of Arabia is clearly documented in the Koran - death or enslavement.

Moving to modern times, many Jewish citizens of Israel fled there after suffering persecution in Muslim countries. The Israeli President is from Iran. That's why Ahmedinejad's recent declaration that Israel should be destroyed and Israelis should "go back where they came from" struck me as tragicomic.

Israel is no more an "apartheid state" than is Pakistan or Greece, which also came about due to religious partitions of formerly pluralistic empires.

Thom writes"Israel also makes 'targeted' attacks when provoked by her neighbors, even going so far as to drop notes from airplanes and helicopters in Arabic informing people an attack is imminent in an area and to clear out -- " Well Thom you should have been there:
Lara Marlow, an American reporter for the Irish Times was in Lebanon at the time and saw Israelis drop notes from airplanes asking them to clear out then saw the Israelis bombard those who had listened to the Israelis! That's the Israeli version of "indicating a very distinct respect for human life."

Washington DC:

First of all, Saudi Arabia does not have Jewish citizens, period.

If you can document a single case since 1948 in which Saudi Arabia evicted out any of their citizens or residents because they were Jewish, please share it with us.

Israel has of course evicted out thousands and thousands of non-Jewish natives until it reached a "comfortable" level of them in order to make sure that the Jewish citizens of Israel remain a majority, by force if necessary.

Secondly, the few Arab MKs in the Israeli knesset is window dressing. Iran also has a Jewish representative in its parliament for its tiny Jewish minority.

Israel-Arabs not only face everyday social discrimination in their natives villages by a majority most of whom were not even born in the Middle East, they are discriminated against in Israeli laws. For instance, Israeli citizens who are Jewish can have dual citizenship while Arab citizens of Israel are not allowed to.

The rest of the widespread discrimination is documented by the Israeli Arab human rights organization below:

http://arabhra.org/factsheets/factsheet1.htm

Any comments?

Israel is a fundamentalist state and it is basically and unfortunately the Jewish version of a modernized Taliban. Don't be fooled by the modern aspect of Israel. The core of this state revolves around religious fundamentalism.

Most Israeli believe the re-establishment of Israel in the same location was simply a prophecy and the fulfillment of God's promise.

After Taliban rule was removed, Israel is today the only state in the entire world where its primary citizens are defined through religious affiliation wherever they might be on the planet.

Israel's 6 million first-class Jewish-citizens rule by force and through coercion 3.8 million non-Jewish natives (Palestinians) and mistreat systematically the little over 1 million second-class Arab citizens of Israel.

Only this week, a radical right-wing party joined the current Israeli cabinet. Its leader, Avigdor Lieberman, is a minister in the government (Minister of Strategic Affairs)
and has publicly called for a "purge" of non-Jewish citizens (Arabs) from Israel.

Finally, please note that this radical fundamentalist Israeli minister was born in the Soviet Union (moved to Israel at age 21).

"Israel, a democracy? How many Arabs are in the Knesset? Who is talking about forcibly handing their Arab villages over to a future Palestinian state? Why aren't Arabs required to do military service as well"
You're kidding right? You are either intentionally prejudiced, or obtuse. Arabic is one of Israel's official languages. There are currently twelve Israeli Arabs sitting as members of the 17th Knesset out of a total of 120 seats. The main Arab party is Balad. Some Arab MK (members of Knesset) are Azmi Bishara (a man drawing a salary from the Israeli government and who actively calls for it's distruction ), Jamal Zahalka, Wasil Taha. Nawaf massalha has served in the knesset since 1988 and was appointed Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs in 1999. Hussniya Jabara is a Muslim Arab women from central Israel who served in the Knesset. In March of 1999, Abdel Rahman Zuabi became the first Arab on the Supreme Court. in 2004 Salim Jubran became the first Arab to hold a permanent appointment as Supreme Court Justice. In June 2006 Ismail Khaldi was appointed as Israeli consul in San Fransisco, the first Beduoin consul for the state of Israel. It is true that Arabs are not required to serve in the army, but may volunteer. There are Arab IDF Generals: Major General Hussain Fares and Major General Yosef Mishlav
(per Wikipedia-Arab Citizens of Israel)

Yep -- sure sounds racist to me...especially compared to the garden of tolerance for minorities and of equality that is the rest of the middle east. Maybe someday, if Israel tries really hard, they can become as tolerant and respectful of other religions as the Saudis are. Jews are not even allowed in Saudi Arabia, much less allowed in government.

Israel, a democracy? How many Arabs are in the Knesset? Who is talking about forcibly handing their Arab villages over to a future Palestinian state? Why aren't Arabs required to do military service as well.

Israel is a nation built out of racism that practices apartheid and hate. The elderly Israeli generation, many of whom were Holocaust survivors, not only massacred Arab civilians and caused an ethnic cleasing with present day Israel (where do you think people living in "refugee camps: came from?) but moved into the homes of their victims.

There are three times as many dead Palestinians as Israelis in the intifada. Israel believes it has the right to starve Palestian civilians into changing their vote. Cluster bombs and phosophorus bombs were used in Lebanon. Children are shot for throwing stones.

Your nation is morally bankrupt. It boggles my mind that an ethnic group that has survived pogrom after pogram in Christian Europe could turn around and do this to other human beings. And for all those who espouse their racist hate towards Arabs and practitioners of Islam you bite the hand that feeds you. When Jews fled Spain during the Inquisition they went two places. Poland, where another pogrom was instituted as part of a marriage arrangement. The Ottoman Empire, where the sultan of the time said that Ferdinand's loss was his gain. The hate you have engendered for yourselves within the Islamic world began in the early 1900s after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire because Britain retained high ranking Jews in their positions - positions granted by MUSLIMS.

It is high time that people around the world stop associating the problems in the Middle East with the Israeli-Palestinian issue. It is historically incorrect, and patently false. Furthermore, the myth of Abbas as a "moderate arab leader" is also part of this bunk. Abbas sports his own terror infrastructure inherited from arch-terrorist Arafat and the hands of his "Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade" are on many of the suicide bombings we face here. As for Palestinians "starving" in Aza and parts of the West Bank, go see how fat Abbas and Haniyeh are and ask them to please stop bringing suitcases filled with millions of US dollars through Sinai to Aza in order to buy more weaponry, smuggling shiploads of millions of rounds of ammunition by sea and building tunnels for smuggling arms and weapons that do not have one single bit of defensive necessity, but rather are for terrorist political gains.

most unfortunate mr. Kattub makes no mention of the fact the world has been feeding them for more than 50 years

notice the way democracy is verbage is used.. this is not democracy..which can never floorish in a society the discrimintes against womens rights and free speach, teaches racial hatred ,and the killing of inocents....THE WORLD HAS A RIGHT TO DEMAND REFORMS AFTER 50+ YEARS

WE ARE A VERY LONG WAY FROM RESOLVING THE MID EAST PROBLEM AS THE ARAB RULERS ARE DEAD AGAINST ANY SOLUTION....ON WESTERN T.V THEY PROCLAIM CHANGE ..YET TO THE HOME CROWD THEY ADOVCATE THE SAME OLD FILTH
AND OF COURSE THE OLD RED HERRING THE ISRAEL -PLAISTINIAN PROBLEM ....THE CAUSE OF ALL THEIR PROBLEMS...ARE WE THAT STUPID???

I don't see how the quotes you've cited above do anything but support Mr. Freedman's original post... Israel is by nature country in which various political and social groups of widely ranging opinions from far-left Communism, to moderate Arab Israeli Muslim, to conservative Orthodox Jewish and even hawkish right-wing nationalists must continually debate, reason, compromise, and jockey for power with another -- and there have been some very dramatic changes even over the past 15 years in the nature and direction of that government. Various divergent social and issue-based groups make agreements with one another to create a system that all ultimatelty accept to be ruled by -- democracy.
When has this been the case in any of the nations surrounding Israel that are calling for her doom?
Israel has women in the army, in professional positions, in her universities, and has even been ruled by women? When has this been the case in any of her Muslim neighbors?

Israel also makes 'targeted' attacks when provoked by her neighbors, even going so far as to drop notes from airplanes and helicopters in Arabic informing people an attack is imminent in an area and to clear out -- indicating a very distinct respect for human life. When have the suicide bombers of Hamas, Hizbullah, the Islamic Jihad or any of the other groups of terrorists politely asked for the occupants of a bus, hotel restaurant, or army checkpoint to "please clear out" before they decided to blow themselves up to make a political point?

And as to the point of Palestinians moving ever more towards extremist Islam -- you must be quite young if you cannot remember that prior to the establishment of the PA, prior to the re-drawing of maps to place Palestine on them as a distinct entity even though it does not exist as a sovereign state, and prior to the launch of the Wahabbist hijacking of what truly could be a beautiful and peaceful religion -- the issue of sovereignty was more political and less religiously based, (albeit no less deadly than) it is today.

To answer your point about democracy -- you seem to know alot less about it than you're trying to imply. Mr. Freedman's point is only strengthened by your various citations.

Israel, you'll remember, has been the one making attempts to create peace from a position of power, and has been doing so for decades.

The problem isn't Israel (although it certainly has problems) -- it's that the Palestinian leadership, along with the leadership of Hizbullah and the leaders of other extremist Islamic militias and sects have never intended -- despite the rhetoric -- for anything but the utter destruction of the Jewish state and the Jewish people. Now that they think -- and you seem to prove -- that they've been able to convince many in the western world that they are justified in doing so, they're going at it no- holds-barred.

Depressing.

Or we could use Mr. Freedman's own posts -

"Israel is a true democracy and one which cares for the sanctity of life."
Shalom Freedman - Sex Scandal Rattles Israel - by Yossi Melman

Plus

"A society which lives on totalitarian sloganeering, [and] hatred of its neighbors. . . is far from Democracy indeed."
Shalom Freedman - This post.

Plus

"The Palestinians themselves have moved more and more into the radical Islamic camp. Once they denied the existence of Israel on national grounds,now they are less concerned with a 'Palestinian Arab entity' and more with the idea of achieving Islamic domination of the Middle East as a whole.
Israel is more endangered than ever before due to the rise of the fundamental Islamic regime in Tehran. Iran has a proxy in Hizbollah and an ally in Syria both of which have missles which cover the territory of Israel, and which Israel has no complete answer to."
Shalom Freedman - What Democrats Mean for Palestine - by Daud Kuttab

Equals?

Tell us who does not have an understanding about democracy, Mr Freedman.

"Democracy does not mean 'voting ' alone. It also means respect for individual rights, freedom of association, and much else."

If this is what defines democracy, then Israel, despite all the spin, is not, not, NOT a democracy.

One needs only look to the very same Palestinians, whom Shalom so vilifies (in every post) as the primary example.

Unfortunately Daoud Kuttab does not seem to understand the nature of democracy. Democracy does not mean 'voting ' alone. It also means respect for individual rights, freedom of association, and much else.
What is happening under Hamas rule in Gaza is that the Palestinians have in chosing the path of violence externally been led to deeper violence internally. Gaza is now a series of tribal fiefdoms , and the division between Hamas and Fatah is only one of many splits in the society.
A society which lives on totalitarian sloganeering, hatred of its neighbors, and absolute inability to translate the 'largesse' of donors of various kinds into positive economic works, is far from Democracy indeed.
The Palestinians need to think about their own economic and social welfare first. And to do this they need to focus on making a peace with Israel which will enable them to better their own lives.