If Israel had intelligence as to the extent of the tunnels and feared continued rocket attacks, why didnt they submit this to the UN for consideration of intervention, or perhaps just drone-bomb the tunnels? The type of weaponry against a largely trapped civilian area, the incompetent targeting, the wasteful destruction, the obscene words of force and domination are all insanely bloodthirsty.
The sick and injured, the heartbroken and disadvantaged are always closer to God.
There is no more righteous and deserving people and God is with them.
Israel has much lost more than respect this time.
They have lost their way.

The type of weaponry against a largely trapped civilian area, the incompetent targeting, the waasteful destruction, the obscene words of force and domination.
The sick and injured, the heartbroken and disadvantaged are always closer to God.
There is no more righteous and deserving people and God is with them.
Israel has much lost more than respect this time.
They have lost their way.

Aman1,

What are sources of these claims. Pallywood? (If you don't know the term look in up on Google and while you about it, look up the Al-Dura hoax too. use.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232100169292&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
Thi article explains what you should have read before inciting agianst Israel/Jews.

Sr. Montaner writes about ===>the rain of rockets that for years has been constantly falling on the heads of Israeli civilians.<====

But he doesn't enumerate. Let me help. More Israelis have died in DYI accidents than from these rockets. If you really want to save Israeli lives then shut down Home Base!

IF U ARE CONVINCED THAT ISRAEL IS NOT GUILTY IN HER WAR ON GAZA, PLZ SEE THIS VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkH936h6uew&feature=related

sme49b1

Please pardon the late response. Work and school devour my time.

In response to my first paragraph, you wrote “In January 2004, senior Hamas leader Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi offered a 10-year hudna in return for complete withdrawal from all territories captured in the Six Day War, and the establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.” I don’t want to nitpick on what may be just wording, but you originally said that Hamas only advocated "a long term 'hudna' or truce, preconditioned on Israel's withdrawal to 1967 borders BEFORE IT COULD EVEN BE NEGOTIATED.” What would be left to negotiate in order to implement the hudna? Do you have any evidence that further negotiations were necessary and requested? If not, I think you may be trying to make Hamas’ offer seem more demanding than it really was.

Your response to my second paragraph displays the differences between us rather well. You begin by admitting that the “concept” of the inadmissibility of acquiring territory by war “is nothing new,” citing UNSC 242. I would add to that Article 2, paragraph 4 of the UN Charter, and General Assembly resolution 2625, in which the Assembly emphasized that “No territorial acquisition resulting from the threat or use of force shall be recognized as legal.” See also Intl’ Court of Justice, Summary of the Advisory Opinion of 9 July 2004, which reaffirmed “the illegality of territorial acquisition resulting from the threat or use of force” pursuant to Article 2, and advised that Israel’s separation wall in the West Bank violates Intl Law.

Despite these basic principles of Intl Law, you seek to avoid their applicability to Israel based on two arguments. The first is the all too familiar “everybody’s doing it.” Suffice it to say that Libya and Morocco should return any land that they acquired by war, and we should push our government to do what they can about it (I am assuming you are a US citizen as well, so correct me if I’m wrong). You and I, however, have very little moral responsibility for what Chad and Libya do, whereas we have much greater moral responsibility for what Israel and the US do. As you know, the US provides aid to Israel at every level (diplomatic, economic, military), and for some time now Israel and the US have been blocking a two state settlement roughly along the pre june 1967 borders, with almost the entire world in opposition. See http://menac.org/2008/12/03/the-latest-vote-on-resolving-the-israel-palestine-conflict/ for the yearly UN general assembly votes on this issue. Given the unique amount of freedom we have in this country, we have the capacity, and thus the moral responsibility, to do something about this. And just because other states do not follow Intl Law (including the US), that does not suddenly make Israel’s actions either legal or moral.

sme49b1 Contd

Your second argument is that UNSC 242 was “rendered moot” as to the West Bank because: 1) the 1994 peace treaty “effect[ed] the return of the land to the previous sovereign power – Jordan” and 2) “Jordan's renunciation of their right to the West Bank freed Israel of any obligation to return the land.” Accordingly, you conclude that “Hamas has no right to this land under international law,” and instead the land is Israel’s “to dispose of” as it pleases. The International Court of Justice does not agree with your assessment of international law. Recalling the UN Charter principle that it is inadmissible to acquire territory by war, the International Court of Justice’s 2004 opinion stated very clearly that Israel's settlements in the West Bank were on “OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORY" and the wall being built to annex them to Israel were illegal under international law. Crucially, the opinion also stressed the legal responsibilities of the international community:
“all States are under an obligation not to recognize the illegal situation resulting from the construction of the wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem. They are also under an obligation not to render aid or assistance in maintaining the situation created by such construction. It is also for all States, while respecting the United Nations Charter and international law, to see to it that any impediment, resulting from the construction of the wall, to the exercise by the Palestinian people of its right to self-determination is brought to an end.”

Finally, you pointed out that the article I linked to actually stated that “the Israeli raid was IN RESPONSE to a threat to their soldiers - a tunnel dug with the intent of using it to kidnap another member of the IDF.” That is not entirely true, though I will admit my quick assessment of the article was inaccurate as well. The author of the article did not say definitively (based on personal observation) whether the tunnel existed or whether Hamas really had plans to kidnap Israeli soldiers, but rather relayed what “THE ISRAELI ARMY SAID.” Governments lie all the time, including our own, so isn’t it possible that the Israeli government lied on this occasion? We cannot know for sure, and other respectable sources do suggest that Israel broke the truce, not Hamas. See http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/gaza-ceasefire-at+risk-20081105. In my opinion, our attention should not be focused on this issue, but rather on a peaceful settlement that will have some hope of ending the conflict. Denying the Palestinians their rights to statehood and continuing the occupation will only make a peaceful settlement more difficult to achieve than it already is.

"No, France is a Country, and has existed for centuries. The Palestinian AND ISRAELI mandate, Bla Bla Bla, it's obvious that YOU don't understand the essential facts!"

That made no sense at all.

Propaganda Francisco Franco would be proud of. The thing about anyone who sees it differently being "anti-Semitic" gives it a nice touch.

RANTZI

AKA SALAFY12123

Playing the game of two persons only weakens your nonsense more.

AP News: By ibrahimb@apnews.org

Yesterday in Jerusalem, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon heard testimony from human rights campaigner in Gaza, detailing the harrowing experience of dozens of Palestinians who were forced to kneel on gravel for hours and beaten on the soles of their feet with iron bars during interrogations by Hamas Security services.
Some witnesses displayed horrific wounds to their kneecaps made by pegs driven into holes deliberately made by electric drills. "my neighbors have done this to me" Shaffiq El Battuti was heard crying, "because i did not attend one demonstration." These and other horrific testimonies against Hamas members were gathered by UN representatives in an apparent effort at further investigation of Human rights violations.

Hundreds of Gaza Palestinians including dozens of teenage girls with disfiguring acid burns on their faces are in protective custody in Israeli hospitals; victims of atrocities by Islamic Squads of Hamas who view these young girls as "public property" if they do not conform to strict Islamic laws. The mother of one of these girls who was undergoing intensive reconstructive plastic surgery was heard crying "God will punish us for killing his chosen people, Islam should rise up and protect the people of the book"

GUUU1

They love their children, I told you the love their children, and they do love their children!!!

Remember Mary and Joseph? She was, what 12-14 yr.
old. Joseph we 70-80 yr. old. For and old cat a tender mouse, eh? Guess they love their children too.

Oh. and what became of this child, Son of GOD who came to save humanity? Give us Barabbas they said. Since then Israelis insist on steeling other peoples property. as for the son of GOD, they crucified him.

Still, that's Judaism for you, see it recognize it...is what it is!!!!!

CLF1968

No, France is a Country, and has existed for centuries. The Palestinian AND ISRAELI mandate, Bla Bla Bla, it's obvious that YOU don't understand the essential facts!

As for your opinion, I really don't care, since you obviously don't know what your talking about.

How dare you profane the name of Allah and his prophet Muhammad the fragrant? may the fire of hell consume you, you traitor to Islam; you worshiper of the Satanic Ayatollah. How dare you suggest to us - the TRUE ISLAM the abomination you wrote? I, Yusuf Islam, father to 34 martyrs proclaim and declare a fatuah against the Satan from Iran, may the fire of hell consume him and his barbaric race of ugly infidels; he is worse than the Jews, worse than the Christian Baptists, worse even than the Catholic pedophiles!!

الله أكبر

how dare you GLSRINI! and YOU might replace the holy name of Muhammad the magnificent with the ugly portrait of one of the limp dicks Satanic Ayatollahs...
here, in Palestine, we love our Muhammad... why if it weren't for him who taught us where in the mosque to stash all those explosive rockets, how to produce more babies and treat our women as sows where would we be? He, may the light shine on his ass and warm it until soft and tender with an inviting fragrant smell and texture, taught us to douse little girls faces with sulfuric acid if they don't wear a veil; and who could forget all the Arab virgins that we are going to get as soon as we blow ourselves up? hmmm? not me!

we love our Muhammad, we just need the Israelies to adopt some of his ways and there will be no Palestinians left to cry over... just like we dealt with the Kurds

Concerning compensation and what is "basic":
Things divided equally, each man one life, one heart, one piece of bread, one bed and one wife. What is owed is what is equal.
God might just take everything until this is recognized.
Christ may not be your tradition, Mohammed might not be your tradition.
We share one God. Equally.

Zarg,

"Are you suggesting that France should have compromised withe the Nazi invasion and occupation, and not resisted?"

France was a country. The palestine mandate was a group of pieces of former ottoman turk territories. It is clear from the comparison that you tried to make that you don't understand the basic facts.

In the broadest possible sense, just consider it a case of 'eminent domain' where the arabs got over 80% of the land, and the jews the rest. Since then in aggressive wars made against her by those with sour grapes about the whole thing, Israel has gained additional territory. This territory was actually intended for the jewish state anyway at the same time transjordan was designated an arab homeland.

This whole thing should be settled through resettlement and compensation so that both arabs and jews can live side by side in viable states. Again, in broad terms, I do not see the need for an additional palestine beyond the one arleady designated (i.e. jordan), although borders may be adjusted a bit.

Then the world - especially the arabs and jews, can move on with peaceful lives.

Some here are concerned with promoting or justifying one or another politico-religious cause or ideology.
Some are concerned with the past, or with history.
Some are focused on who started the agression and what they believe might justify military action..
Some are concerned with dates and times.
Some here focus on coersion, necessity, duty, balance of power or force.
There is focus on the accuracy of weapons, the accuracy of words and the intentions of groups, what is written in their law, their constitutions, what past leaders have promised or threatened..
Some choose to focus on laying blame for the results of violent acts, or talk of the appropriateness of targets.
Some count the casualties.

In a perfect world each and every individual word and act would be weighed and measured according to its intent, according to good and evil.
Arter life, God will.
Thou Shalt not Kill.
Some might argue the difference between murder and killing and the interpretation of The Word..
Some might argue what has happened in the past, even events in the Bible.
Pretend you are God and you know the answers.
You know what is expected of you and you know what to say.

Hey ZARGON, you would like this...

By IBRAHIM BARZAK (the israeli collaborator)

Hamas AP News: Israeli forces shell UN headquarters in Gaza killing 79 children, 232 of the dead children were pregnant with other children...
The explosion engulfed a compound and a warehouse in a big fire that destroyed thousands of pounds of food and humanitarian supplies intended for Palestinian children pregnant with other children... and fathered by Palestinian officials... they do like their children!!!

U.N. workers and "Palestinian firefighters", some wearing bulletproof jackets, to protect them from the constant israeli fire aimed at the children, struggled to douse the flames and plant flowers to protect the children while buggering other children (i told you they like their children...)
"we need those children" one Hamas official was heard yelling "the suicide vests are just too small for most of Palestinian Hamas members... who love the children"

the inhumanity!!!

still, that's Islam for you, see it recognize it... it is what it is!!!

CLF1968

Are you suggesting that France should have compromised withe the Nazi invasion and occupation, and not resisted?

How is Israel at fault? When even Ray Charles, may he rest in peace, could see that Israel is,

1 Invading and occupying someone else's land.
2 Building in someone else's land.
3 Violating all International norms of Law,
Justice, and Humanity.
4 Assassinating all their leaders who disagree
and resist the occupation of their lands.
5 Committing Genocide on their women and
children, after placing them in a Ghetto
style Concentration camp.
6 Violating their own God's commandments of
A. Thou shalt not steal.
B. Thou shalt not kill.
C. Thou shalt not bear false witness against
thy neighbor

Look, Israel can fool some people, all of the time, or it can fool some people some of the time.
But, Israel cant fool all people all of the time.

But , listen, you don't have to convince me or anyone else. If the Israelis truly believe in their God, it is he that they will have to answer to and convince. Israelis need be careful, what you say, because, I understand that he is not a schmuck, and will punish them if he so judges.

Dear all,

Israel has the advantage of the victim status from World War II. I have the impression that people explore this fact as an argument against Israel's adversaries or whose opinions go against Israel's interests.

When the author says "(...) from whom an anti-Semitic stench often rises (...)" I have the impression that the author explores this victim privileged status of Israel against people who shares different opinions.

We cannot say anything against Israel or disagree with its strategies that we are automatically labeled as anti-Semite. Very convenient!

In the same portion of the text the author ironically states "Tel Aviv's critics(...)do not say whether Israel should increase its quota of cadavers or if it must reduce the Arabs' quota to achieve the reasonable proportion of blood". It makes me sick reading such comment ...

I haven't read until the end ...

Hamas is a Nazi organization.

www.talktail.com

dear rizvisqa... its hard to generate sympathy for people who strap explosive vests on their children and send them to die in the name alla... or for gangs of islamists who rape little girls who do not wear the veil and then persuade them that the only way they can redeem their family honor is to blow themselves up at isreali border crossings... you would need to logic of some ayatolla to figure this up... don't get me wrong! i kind of like the ayatolla (i mean looking like the devil and all...) he could fit very well in my S&M sex club... do you think he is gay?

The question regarding the aftermath of the current Israel's offensive in Gaza,seems yet very devious and incertain since in this emerging humanitarian crisis in Gaza,if indifference still remains the Israeli policy, one may daresay that by creating such crisis in Gaza,it appreciates to be an unworkable proposition that the ideological/political power of Hamas would be weakened.

kjohnsons3

Your comments appear to be well thought out and logical and I agree with most of them.

The only one I find fault with is your comaprison of the human cost to Israel as opposed to the human cost to Gaza.

One of the major reasons for the difference is the extensive preparation by the Israeli government of reinforced shelters for its civilian population. Even the shelters at bus stops are built of reinforced concrete. On the other hand, Hamas made no such preparation for Gazan civilians, despite the extensive time and effort they devoted to the construction of tunnels and military bunkers (it should be noted that while Gazan civilians literally have nowhere to hide, the Hamas leadership immediately went to ground and have not been seen in public since the beginning of the Israeli attack).

Any explosives, no matter how primitive you might think they are, still have a sizeable capacity to cause casualties. One of the major reasons for the disproportionate numbers of civilian casualties is that the Israeli government sees the most value in keeping its constiuents alive and well while Hamas sees the most value in presenting its citizens to the world as a mass of dead and injured.

shepehrdmarilyn

"Hamas did not break the truce you fruit cake, Israel did. And another thing. Israel is an occupier and they are always wrong in law."

Unfortunately, your link doesn't quite support your position the way you would like people to think it does. Here's what else it says...

4. ii) On November 4 the IDF carried out a military action close to the border security fence on the Gazan side to prevent an abduction
planned by Hamas, which had dug a tunnel under the fence to that purpose. Seven
Hamas terrorist operatives were killed during the action. In retaliation, Hamas and the
other terrorist organizations attacked Israel with a massive barrage of rockets. Since
then, 191 rockets and 138 mortar shells have been fired. The attacks have been
continuous and some were carried out by weapons not previously used, such as
122mm standard Grad rockets and 120mm mortar shells. Hamas has been directly
involved in the attacks in cooperation with the other terrorist organizations

6. During the first period the crossings between Israel and the Gaza Strip were open most
of the time (Israel closed them for short intervals in response to rocket fire). Scores of trucks delivered large quantities of consumer goods through the Karni and Sufa (and later Kerem
Shalom) crossings on a daily basis, including supplies of commodities Israel had previously
not permitted into the Gaza Strip, such as cement and iron. Hamas leaders admitted that
there was an improvement in the supply of goods and that civilian life was returning to
normal. Life also returned to normal in the western Negev towns and villages for the first
time in the period preceding the lull.

7. With the escalation in rocket and mortar shell attacks which began on November 4, Israel
began closing the crossings for longer periods. That led to shortages of basic goods in the
Gaza Strip and to disruptions in the supply of various types of fuel (although electrical power
was not cut off, since the plant in Ashqelon, which supplies 65% of the Gaza Strip’s
electricity, provided an uninterrupted flow of power).

8. Hamas did nothing to stop the attacks against Israel, preferring to deal with the problem of
the closed crossings by instituting a propaganda campaign in the international media.
Hamas hoped it would exert pressure on Israel (and Egypt) and force it to open the
crossings, even while the rocket and mortar shell attacks continued. At the same time, Hamas
found alternatives to the crossings, institutionalizing the tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border
and setting up a maritime delivery service from abroad. The alternatives have eased the
shortages but have not provided an appropriate solution for the problem of the closed
crossings.

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hamas_e017.pdf

Zargon,

Hamas/Hezbo, etc. have in their charters a call to destroy Israel and liquidate the jews. That's pretty cut and dry. For them it is a zero sum game and no compromise. Having 'peace' as a strategic goal, rather than liquidating the jews, might be a good first step.

What makes you think Israel is at fault here?

Drainey32798

"...You next write that Hamas only advocated "a long term 'hudna' or truce, preconditioned on Israel's withdrawal to 1967 borders before it could even be negotiated..." What is the "it" you are referring to? If "it" = the long term truce, what evidence do you have that negotiating it had to take place after withdrawal to the 1967 borders?...

**In January 2004, senior Hamas leader Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi offered a 10-year hudna in return for complete withdrawal from all territories captured in the Six Day War, and the establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.**
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudna

" And even if this were a precondition, I do not see how it's unreasonable for Hamas to first demand what they are entitled to under international law. Israel acquired the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem by war, and therefore they cannot occupy that land according to the UN Charter/Geneva Accords"

If you are referring to UNSC 242 the text states that it "emphasizes" the inadmissiblity of force of arms as a means of acquiring territory. In other words, this concept is nothing new. However, it does not mean that every instance of acquiring territory via armed belligerence is unacceptable. About 3 years after this resolution passed, Libya invaded Chad and seized a sizeable piece of northern Chad. In 1979, Morocco used force to acquire the former Spanish Sahara (which ignited a guerrilla war with the Polisario Front). In neither of these instances was there a demand on the part of the UN that the land acquired be relinquished. Assuming for the moment that this provision of UNSC 242 was meant to apply only to Israel, it was renedered moot when the Jordan River was recognized as the common boundary between Jordan and Israel in their 1994 peace treaty. Since there was no reference at all, implicitly or explicitly to the Palestinians or the PLO in the resolution, the point was to effect the return of land to the previous sovereign power - Jordan. Jordan's renunciation of their right to the West Bank freed Israel of any obligation to return the land, meaning that it was theirs to dispose of (or not) as they wished. Put another way, Hamas has no right to this land under international law, the Geneva Accords or any other instrument.

With regard to your contention that it was Israel that violated the truce, apparently you didn't read the entire story you linked to. The Israeli raid was IN RESPONSE to a threat to their soldiers - a tunnel dug with the intent of using it to kidnap another member of the IDF. Why do you think that Hamas' kidnapping attempt is not a truce violation while the Israeli response to it is?

Israels war on the Palestinians is totally misconceived and neither the West nor Israel can kill their way out of it. War costs huge amounts of money. As the money tightens, it's every Country for themselves, just cause or not.
The money coffers in the U S A and the rest of the world are going down in flames. People are breaking and committing suicide. The future is not a pretty picture. Israel needs to see the writing on the wall before it is to late and really and realistically reach out to make peace withe their brothers, before the window of opportunity closes. What Israel is doing now will only adversly effect their future.

Some here are concerned with promoting one or another politico-religious cause or ideology.
Some are concerned with the past, with history.
Some are focused on who started the agression.
Some are concerned with dates and times.
Some here focus on balance of power or force.
There is focus on the accuracy of weapons, the accuracy of words and the intentions of groups.
Some chose to focus on laying blame for the results of violent actions.

In a perfect world every individual word and act would be weighed and measured according to its intent, according to good and evil. In the afterlife, God will.
Thou Shalt not Kill.
Some might argue the difference between murder and killing.
Some might argue what has happened in the past, even in the Bible.
Pretend you are God and you know the answers.

Next to some good commentary in the National Post by Johnathon Kay, this is an excellent analysis, and long overdue.

p.bobrow

Zagrom, you are right in noting that no nation is perfect. The quest for justice must needs be flawed. America spilled the blood of 1,600,000 of it's own young men in a civil war searching for it. It was waged over four long years until the weight of blood and exhaustion of battle declared freedom the winner and slavery defeated. We also had misguided terrorist (John Brown and company) who believed that slavery should be abolished at any cost, including murder and mayhem. Americans of all persuasions rejected him. What a different nation we would be today had terror prevailed or the South had not been forced to their knees. Perhaps we too would be lobbing rockets at each other.

MERLMAN,

We can not pretend that we will be unaffected by terrorists and others that promote their ideology trough cohesion and force justifying any measure, no matter how barbaric or primitive to advance their cause.
Does this also apply to the Invasion of Viet Nam, remember the domino theory? How about Somoza, replacing a democratically elected Government? How about the American Indians, The African slaves. Practice what you preach, stop pretending,
Don't just cherry pick some countries, hang out the whole dirty laundry for all civilized nations to see and judge for themselves.

ahhh, so the political hack starts moderating comments. And suddenly the conversation becomes a bit more one-sided.

Goodbye

When the terror weapons of bitterness and rancor has expended themselves on the graves of their people, and hope for the future outweighs the need for revenge, then those who are oppressed will raise up and refuse to any longer be used as shields and pawns in this deadly game.

Until that day arrives, the terrorist demands must be paid in the only currency they will accept; the blood of innocent people, women and children, and purveyors of hate the world over.

"This demand for 'proportionality' can only be called surprising. Until this conflict began, history books everywhere always expressed great satisfaction and a certain chauvinistic pride when a nation's army inflicted on the enemy a large number of casualties..."

This is a deliberate misreading of the "proportionality" argument. No one is saying that the killing should be "adjusted" to guarantee equal casualties to each side. That is a willfully naive suggestion.

The point being made regarding "disproportionate" losses is that the very fact of the disproportion demonstrates how mismatched the two sides are. Israel has made clear that it is capable of bombing Gaza into oblivion, while Gazans have few resources -- militarily and otherwise -- to protect themselves.

Despite all the rockets fired from Gaza, comparatively few Israelis have been injured; even fewer have died. There is, after all, nothing particularly sophisticated about Hamas's firepower. But the retaliation is pure civilian carnage. Israel, after all, has very sophisticated firepower.

As to Montaner's charge of an anti-Semitic stench, yes, it's one of the most frustrating things about this issue for non-anti-Semitic people. So many bigots and racists have latched onto these discussions and poured out their venom that it begins to seem as if all critics of Israel must be part of the same repugnant persuasion.

Nothing could be further from the truth. For many of us, it is difficult to criticize Israel because of our consciousness about Jewish history in the modern world. But that doesn't mean that we should support and enable "man's inhumanity to man" just because Israel is one of the players. Israel can do wrong -- and has done so. We need to be willing to censure its crimes while still supporting its people.

It is naive to believe we are safe as long as we personally are not suffering. Civilized people understand the rule of law. Each of us are citizens of the world too. We can not pretend that we will be unaffected by terrorists and others who promote their ideology through coercion and force justifying any measure, no matter how barbaric or primitive, to advance their cause. Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait, the West's studied ignorance of Hitler's ambitions; Rwanda, Darfur, Sudan, Mozambique, Uganda, Cambodia, September 11, 2001...how long a list do you need to convince us that bad people do not simply go away when ignored. Genocide, racism, bigotry, terrorism, and other forms of tyranny require active opposition if civilized nations are to survive or if a broader conflict is to be avoided. History is proof.

"Excerpts from HAMAS covenant (puts things in perspective)

"Peace initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

Now ask yourself honestly, would any human being with even just a shred of intelligence, suggest that Israel sit by idly and wait for Hamas to reach a point where they can make good on their threat? I think you know the answer "

Everyone either says, screw the Arabs, or screw the Jews. Fact is that, the Middle East is one big domestic problem created by THEIR FATHER ABRAHAM. Yes they are brothers killing brothers, tooth for tooth ect. We the rest of the world would be better of just minding our own business.

1 We don't have to (play their game) pick sides.
2 We will save a lot of well needed money here
for our own people in the U S A.
3 They run out of sponsors and have to come to
A solution all on their own, without our money,
that we have better thing to spend on, and
without our support, they haven't listen to
anyway for over 40 years. So why waste any
more effort. We have our own problems, we
don't need someone else's.

first of all if you wanna know how it feels on the israeli side, the one that kept getting shelled for the last 8 years, listen to this: http://www.myspace.com/kendogkeds , or watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6y2-3QC1Yw

now, Well let's study a little history with some basic facts:
1. there was never a state called Palestine. it was a territory ruled by different countries all through history and was inhabited by arabs and jews.
2. 1948 - the UN decides to split the land between the jews and the arabs. the jews accept, declare a democratic state and go dancing in the streets. the arabs start a war in which they lose.
3. 1967 - after many provocations by the arabs the 6 day war breaks. israel wins again against all odds.
4. never in the history of israel has its army targeted civillians. on the other hand palestinian (and other islamic groups) had always targeted civillians, schools, buses and kindergartens.
5. Hammas is teaching children the language of terror since they are 3 years old (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8) and uses civillians and kids as a human shield.

what is my point? there's a difference between shooting back at the source of fire trying to kill terrorist and hurting the civillians they use as a shield and targeting whole cities trying to kill childern (over 8,000 rockets!!).

furthermore - as i said before, whenever the arabs started a war against israel they lost. now they think they can also set the rules to an agreenment on their terms - show me one example in the worlds history when the side that provoked, started a war, used terror and then lost thaught it could get 100% of its demands in a truce/peace agreenment.

I really feel for the innocent civillians in gaza. but they elected a terror organization (declared by the UN as a terror organization) and now they deal with the unfortunate outcome. did you ever wonder why israel does not bomb hebron or jennin in the west bank? maybe because Abbas's people keep the peace there and build a proper economy.. think about that.
Oded

How long would YOUR country tolerate rockets launched by your neighbors toward populated cities? One week? Two weeks? One month?
How about EIGHT YEARS, as Israel suffers it? How about more than 3500 rockets in 2008 (the year of HUDNA, another version of ceasefire from the Arab culture..)? Would YOU accept situation where over million of your citizens are rocketed on a daily basis, having some 15 second alert to run to a close shelter? We've build shelters for every home, every school, every kindergarten, every store… For how long would you expect Israel to tolerate such conditions? Israel has warned time after time, that those attacks must end; Israel tried several other activities to try to stop it – for EIGHT YEARS!
In order to understand a conflict, one should go after the goals and heading of each side:
Israel wants peace, with all its neighbors . They say it. They write it. They sing it. With political, economical, cultural relations. If not acceptable – without it. But violence and genocide goals will not be tolerated.
What does the Hamas want?
Hamas goal is to destroy Israel and kill all Jews. They say it. They write it. They sing it. They pump their young children with it (so called "education system", where even Mickey Mouse is fighting the Jews and ask to become a Shahid, where school children are promised to have 72 virgins in heaven if they kill Jews, where all songs lyrics admires the Shahids [martyr] and preaches for Jihad [holly war]..)
Why don't you just read the Hamas Covenant?
The HAMAS Covenant holds more than 10,000 words: more than 90% of them are focused on the destruction of the state of Israel and the extermination of Jews!
Few examples are :"..our war with the Jews is pan-Islamic…the goal is JIHAD [holly war] by any Muslim in the world against the Zionists…. The war will end until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them all, until Jews will hide behind a rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will say "oh Muslim, the sun of God, there's a Jew behind me, come over and kill him…… the land is holly and belongs only to Muslims, and we'll fight until it is returned to Muslims and mosques all over it will announce the Islamic state……
Even the Nazis used "clean" terms, such as "final solution" for genocide: the Hamas does not need that-they say clearly and loudly that their goal is to destroy Israel and kill all Jews: Are you sure we should accept it as 'internal use'? Would you?

"Concerns of civilian deaths rise in Sri Lanka" Jan 5, 2009 - Associated Press

Has anyone noticed that while the Israelis launched their invasion of Gaza, the Sri Lankans have been engaged in a major military offensive against the Tamil Tigers. I dont really find it suprising that this gets little news coverage. But what is amazing, is the extraordinary amount of world focus on the Israelis by comparison, and specifically attention to the level of civilian casualties. Here, you have a similar conflict with roughly similar casualties; and yet, the Sri Lankan conflict is virtually non-existant in the world media, non-existant in anguish projected, non-existant in protests, non-existant in peace initiatives, and above all in the level of criticism that the more powerful military and country is receiving.
Why is this? What explains the microscopic critical attention received by the Israelis, and the complete lack of interest received by the Sri Lankans? Is it because the Israelis are perceived as a white people oppressing a non-white peoples? Is it because they are Jewish? Is it because they are backed by the Americans (who are evil themselves)? Is it because there are more than 1 billion Muslims world wide whose main focus on injustice concerns the Palestinians and no other people anywhere else in the world? Is it because leftists the world over have a special place in the their hearts for Israel hating? Is it because Europeean nations now have the own large Muslim populations that have to be appeased?
Or is it simply that the Israelis are in fact worse than the Sri Lankans? or the Russians in Chechnya? or the Sudanese in Darfur? or the various warlords running rampant in the Congo? (3 million dead in 15 years) In other words, do the Israelis receive this special attention because they have killed more people and have conducted their army more brutally than any of these other places (and countless military conflicts unreferenced)? And obviously, if this the case, the Israelis must have not simply been worse but, to justify the attention, they must be unfathombly worse. I mean they must commit atrocity after atrocity with mind numbing numbers of dead and with a brutality that knows no bounds. Because thats about what it would take to rationally explain this disparate media attention.

Some people ask:
Why is the response is disproportionate, BUT what they are really asking is:
"Why there are no more dead man women and children on the Israeli/Jewish side ?"

Here is my answer to "Why children die in Gaza":

http://shmuel.ahdut.com/2009/01/why-children-die-in-gaza.html

Please read..

Hamas did not break the truce you fruit cake, Israel did. And another thing. Israel is an occupier and they are always wrong in law.

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hamas_e017.pdf

16. Networks belonging to Fatah/Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades were the most prominent and
central in violating the lull arrangement. Their motivation was the desire to show themselves
as the standard bearers of the “resistance” (i.e., terrorism) and to send a message of
defiance to Hamas, their rivals, even though Fatah in Judea and Samaria renounced the
attacks.5 In certain instances the Palestinian Islamic Jihad or other organizations fired
rockets. In most instances they did not publicly claim responsibility. Such attacks were
motivated by deep internal Palestinian rivalries, especially between Fatah and Hamas, and not
responses to “violations” on the part of Israel.
17. During the first period Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire and its operatives
were not involved in rocket attacks. At the same time, the movement tried to enforce the
terms of the arrangement on the other terrorist organizations and to prevent them from
violating it. Hamas took a number of steps against networks which violated the arrangement,
but in a limited fashion and contenting itself with short-term detentions and confiscating
weapons. For example, a number of times Hamas’s security services detained Fatah/Al-Aqsa
Martyrs Brigades operatives, including Abu Qusai, an Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades spokesman,
who claimed responsibility for rocket fire (June 29). Detained operatives were released after a
short interrogation and no real measures were taken against them. However, it was clear that
throughout the first period Hamas sought to avoid direct confrontations with the rogue
organizations (especially the PIJ) insofar as was possible, lest it be accused of collaborating
with Israel and harming the “resistance.” Hamas therefore focused on using politics to
convince the organizations to maintain the lull arrangement and on seeking support for it
within Gazan public opinion (including issuing statements by its activists regarding the lull’s
achievements).
5

One wonders what symmetry is demanded. Should we sacrifice one man for one man, one child for one child?
Should Israel have shot rockets back at Gaza over the eight years, rocket for rocket? Should we have compromised our morality and shot at civilian populations as they did?

Every death is the loss of a whole world. How can you pay for one with another?

don't be silly SUSTING, they will not stop... but it will be interesting to see how they will rout it next...

why don't just bomb these ass hols back to their fu*** alla i wonder?

did you see the "ayatolla" ? satanic, isn't he?

Obama, they want to see their virgins... lets show them their f*** virgins...

Islam is a relative new comer in the community of world religions. The Jewish presence far predates the prophet Mohammad's appearance on the scene 600 years after the death of Jesus Christ, and nearly 1600 years after the Jewish King David established Jerusalem as his capital. Muslim's claim to Jerusalem by right of their occupation only arises after the dispersion of the Jews under Roman and subsequent Islamic and so called Christian persecution, an oxymoron if there ever was one. Even so, a Jewish remnant remained until the Zionist movement saw displaced Jews all over the world return to the homeland of their ancient past propelled by the Nazi Holocaust and a desire to escape antisemitism. If historical roots give Hamas the right to claim the land of Israel for Muslims, then the Jewish claim is much more ancient.

Hey i got the same thing! they are spooling through hamburg germany... whats "crens^5$#" ?

but why would the Iranians perpetrate such a silly trick pretending to be arabs?

SME49b1"

Ok, let's take apart what you have written, piece by piece. You begin by writing that "Hamas came to power in Gaza by means of violence not the ballot box." Like CFL 1968, you insist on a short blanket statement instead of evaluating the relevant facts and background preceding Hamas' takeover of Gaza. This reflects your unwillingness to talk seriously about this issue.

You next write that Hamas only advocated "a long term 'hudna' or truce, preconditioned on Israel's withdrawal to 1967 borders before it could even be negotiated..." What is the "it" you are referring to? If "it" = the long term truce, what evidence do you have that negotiating it had to take place after withdrawal to the 1967 borders? I am not aware of any evidence for this precondition. And even if this were a precondition, I do not see how it's unreasonable for Hamas to first demand what they are entitled to under international law. Israel acquired the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem by war, and therefore they cannot occupy that land according to the UN Charter/Geneva Accords. Incidentally, almost the entire world agrees with this basic tenet of international law, as evidenced by yearly UN general assembly votes on the issue. See http://menac.org/2008/12/03/the-latest-vote-on-resolving-the-israel-palestine-conflict/.

Finally, you write that "a truce is only good when Israel observes it. Hamas does not see itself as being bound by the same requirements." See the source below as to how Israel broke a truce with Hamas to a four month cease fire. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

For those of you willing to consider that hamas might be some sort of charity organization, here are a few excerpts from its charter. Gosh I hope I didn't take anything out of context...:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Muslim brethren in Palestine.

Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people. "May the cowards never sleep."

the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.

***These people are just plain nuts:

The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups.

*** Ah yes - the evil rotarians - it makes one shudder...

Drainey32798

Hamas came to power in Gaza by means of violence not the ballot box. They never advocated a permanent settlement with Israel, only a long term 'hudna' or truce, preconditioned on Israel's withdrawal to 1967 borders before it could even be negotiated (and then only through intermediaries). As we have seen, a truce is only good when Israel observes it. Hamas does not see itself as being bound by the same requirements.

Amani1

"...does it make it legitimate for a nation to take over another nation..."

First this assumes that there was an existing "Palestinian" national identity prior to the initial wave of Jewish migration. There was not. As a matter of fact, the representation of local Arab notables to the US King-Crane Commission created by US President Woodrow Wilson to conduct an inquiry into events in the Middle East (actually to establish a US presence) petitioned for their inclusion inot a forthcoming Syrian state. Even after the establishment of the mandate, most local Arabs considered themselves to be Syrian rather than Palestinian.

Truth be told, it wasn't the average Arab fellah that was interested in a Palestinian national identity, but the local Arab elite, who saw the end of their power and privilege with the arrival of the British. More to the point, it was a group of early Islamic fundamentalists led by the Husseini clan (Amin al Husseini, the head of the Arab Higher Committee that fomented so much of the violence in the mandate was an early member of the Muslim Brotherhood) that encouraged active hostility toward the Jews and advocated their expulsion.

look here, its amazing to read how much compassion and care the Arabs have for their women and children... really touching!!! and almost convincing...

by the way, for the network savvy among us, 90% of the anti-American, anti-Israel BS you read here is coming from Iran... run a trace, you'll be surprised!

J2Hess

"Montaner simply lies. He accuses Hamas of breaking the cease-fire. Israel imposed a blockade - an act of war - while the ceasefire was presumably in effect. Israel continued assisinations. Israel invaded Gaza on November 4th."

You forgot to mention that the Israeli incursion inot gaza was the result of a Hamas tunnel that extended under Israeli soil and was apparently built with the intent of conductiong another kidnapping of an Israeli soldier. That's not an act of war?

The blockade (and it was not a complete one) was implemented to slow down the flow of weapons into Gaza, especially since the EU monitors had left their posts with the overhtrow of Fatah.

Amazing how these little details seem to get lost.

maher1

"Anyone who supports Israel in this war has no conscience, or defiantly misinformed. I have been watching what is going on in Gaza, and I am already having a nightmare I would like to summaries it with the following, Imaging you are inside your house and someone demolish it on top of you and your family. As a result you lose half of your loved one, and guess what the perpetrator would say “this is because of your president and his foreign policy”. For the love of god people, most of the killed are women and children more than 971 killed and 4500 badly injured as we speak, whatever justification those pro-Israel are trying to sell is pure crime. We defiantly should speak up."

What would yo have done to prevent this? Would you have told Hamas that it was probably in the best interests of the people of Gaza not to fire rockets into Israeli cities because there might be an armed response? If you weren't able to convince Hamas to stop firing rockets, would you have then demanded that they at least prepare shelters for Gazan civilians so that they had a place to go that was relatively safe (say like the safe rooms in Israeli homes, or the reinforced bus shelters and bomb shelters found in Israeli cities) to escape the bombing and shelling that Hamas rocket fire was sure to elicit from Israel? Would you have tried to explain to Hamas that it was probably in the best interest of the people of Gaza that they find some kind of modus vivendi with Israel that would lead to the pssibility of a better life instead of the possibility of death and destruction?

Then again, maybe you're much like Hamas in that you only care about the people of Gaza to the extent that their pain and suffering can be used against the Israelis.

SME49B1,

Oh , I get it it wasn't this fellow land that the Israelis were stealing , it was someone else's land that they were stealing. Oh and all those historical notes make it so muck better to accept the crime.

Thanks for the info. The world understands and feels better now.

its amazing to read how much compassion and care the Arabs have for their women and children... really touching!!! and almost convincing...

Aman1

"To those who believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization, you have been -intentionally- misinformed. Hamas, just like Fateh and all other palestinian liberation organizations, is nothing but a political movement devoted to give back the palestinians their stolen land from their oppresser -Israel. If u can go back 60 years in history, you may -or may not- have heard of the palestinians who were massacred and kicked out of their homes by gun force upon which the state of Israel enforced its existence. Some were killed, others survived and ended up living in refugee camps in countries all over the world. There are now about 4.6 million Palestinians living outside their homeland Palestine (more than half of its population are refugees!). And let me tell u this: the quality of life they are living in exile sucks! Most are under the line of poverty with not enough food or money to fullfill their needs."

Several things here. First,both the Fatah and Hamas Charters call for Israel's destriuction. The idea of a Palestinian Arab national idnetity did not exist before WWI,never mind that there might have been a sovereign Palestinian state; so the idea of Israel 'stealing' Palestinian land has no basis in fact.

It has long since been established, not only that most Arabs fled their homse in what is now Israel, but that they were to a great extent encouraged by Arab leadership. A majority never saw an armed Israeli, much less were they forced out at gunpoint. Even revisionist Israeli historians such as Segev and Morris acknowledge as much.

That so many Palestinians are still in refugee camps some 60 years after the fact, speaks more about the exclusionary policies of their host countries than Israeli cruelty. It's as if they are afraid these people would forget they were Palestinian if they were accorded citizenship and property rights.

SME49b1

Well then if a handful of Israelis can do all that then what do you need all those Jet fighters ,Helicopter, Artillery, Tanks and over 250 Nuclear Bombs for. Just gather up another handful of Soldiers and get the job done Rambo.

Oh , you forgot to mention that these handful of men were stealing someone else's land. It may be important to mention. As to what Israeli soldiers choose to do today, fact is women and children are being massacred. Here in the USA police are not allowed to fire into crowds,for fear of innocent being hurt, but that is O K with you, you call women and Children Collateral damage. We call it something else.
As for the laxative, it's you Elephant, you clean it up! We are getting really tired of you mess.

zargon

"You cannot peacefully coexist with someone who want to kill you. Right, especially if you have just stolen their land are occupying it, killing their leaders, women ,children, using bullets and bombs that are prohibited under International law, and defying the U N."

Palestinians have never had any land to be stolen from them. Before 1948, both Arabs and Jews living in mandatory Palestine were known as Palestinians. Before the mandate, what is now (erroneously) called by some 'historic Palestine' were parts of Ottoman administratvie districts known as sanjaks. Not a single one of them went by the name Palestine. The concept of a Palestine that went from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea reuslted from the British turning the eastern two thirds of the mandate awarded them by the League of nations to the Hashemites, who had been spurned by the Brits in favor of their Saudi rivals on the Arabian Peninsula and were threatening to march on Damascus. In other words, this 'historic Palestine' existed for little more than 25 years. Prior to the mandate, the term 'Palestine' had not been used to describe a political unit since before the Crusades (and then it was a subdistrict of the province of Shams, aka Syria). Until the British decided to use it to describe their mandate, the term 'Palestine' was no more than a geographic place name, in much the same way as Silesia or the Saar describe geographic areas in Europe.

Israelis are not intentionally targeting women and children, simply becuase there is no precentage in it for them. On the other hand, Hamas and Fatah have not only targeted women and children, but consider those who do as heroes.

CFL 1968:

You have ignored my main arguments regarding international law and the assymetrical political treatment of the Palestinians, and instead wish to talk about the Hamas/Fatah civil war. I am happy to do so. Note - I do know about the war, an important event that deserves more than your 1 sentence summary.

The punishment of Palestinians for the crime of voting the wrong way was severe. With US backing, Israel withheld funds it was legally obligated to transmit to the Palestinian Authority, tightened its siege, and even cut off water to the arid Gaza Strip. The US and Israel rejected Hamas' call for a long term cease-fire to allow for negotiations on a 2 state settlement along the internationally recognized borders (pre-June 1967). Meanwhile, Israel stepped up its settlement programmes in the West Bank (held illegal by the World Court), always with US backing and funding. Most importantly, the US and Israel began arming and training Fatah to win by force what it lost at the ballot box. Despite the military aid, Fatah forces in Gaza were defeated in a pre-emptive strike, primarily targeting the security forces of the brutal Fatah strongman Mohammed Dahlan. Thus began the US/Israeli economic sanctions and fencing in of Gaza that we see today.

kohsar240

"Too many moral justification for Israel, but it is the Palestinians that bleed for over 50 years. Where do you fit this simple truth in your moral equation for Israel??? No matter what and everything has been done, in terms of violating human rights and committing crimes against humanity, Israel will still be victorious in western media particularly Washington Post, Netwrok News and New Channel. Just the numbers of Jews controlling New Media gives a very clear picture of where Israel would stand. Imagine if Israel wasn't a Jewish state, what would you think? Would it get away so much crime for 50 years. Palestinians are wrong once, twice....but for 50 years? There is something fundamentally wrong with timing and placing of Israel on Palestinian soil."

What you forgot to mention is exactly why the Palestinians are bleeding. They could have had a state of their own in 1947 had they accepted the UN partition, but their leadership chose to reject it. Heck, they could have had a state of their own in 1938, had they chosen to accept the recommendations of the Peel Commision, but they rejected that too, despite the fact that it would have given them over 70% of mandatory Palestine and the Jews about 20% (the Brits would have gotten Jerusalem and a corridor to the sea). The primary reason for the rjection was that Jews were getting anything at all. Since that time, the Palestinians have opted for violence instead of accepting that Jews are also entitled to the same national rights that they themselves aspire to.

If Jews control the media, how is it we don't see any photos of the Hamas rockets that have hit Israel? How about videos of Israeli wounded being carried into Israeli hospitals? On the other hand, we get more footage of injured Gazans and destroyed Gazan buildings in an hour of news than we do of the upcoming inauguration.

Be careful when you go to sleep tonight - there could be a Jew hiding under your bed.

zargon

"Israelis hide behind their Fighter jets, Tanks, heavy Artillery. and over 250 nuclear bombs and cry helpless victim. Palestinians who are all cramped together, Ghetto style, and have nowhere to hide use, primitive missiles, small arms, and stone throwing to defend their occupied lands.
As spectators, the rest of us need only to watch what the Israeli's do and not what they say. While Israel continues to plays the role of used car salesman to the rest of the world, we need be weary for we have already been deceived by the many institutions that have caused this global meltdown."

I guess you forgot about the handful of Jews who, in 1948 had little more than small arms and homemade mortars to defend themselves against professional armies from Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt and Lebanon. The difference between them and today's Hamas is that they chose to target the soldiers who attacked them instead of civilians (note: there were more than just civilians at Deir Yassin, otherwise there would have been no resistance to the Irgun attackers, and the King David Hotel was also British military HQ). Apparently you had no problem with the Arabs who "hid" behind their planes, tanks and artillery in those days. And you don't seem to have any problem with present day Hamas fighters who like hiding behind civilians.

If Hamas was really worried about the Gazan population they would have devoted at least a little effort to building bomb shelters for them, or maybe even throwing a few sandbags their way. The plight of the people of Gaza is a tragedy, no doubt about it. But blaming their plight solely on the Israelis is like feeding an elephant a laxative and leaving your brother to clean up the mess.

"Hamas came to power in free, democratic elections"

So they win a legislative majority, then decide to stage bloody coup and kill off fatah leaders in other branches of government and executive authority to seize total control of gaza.

Nice.

But you probably didn't know that.

This is ridiculous. Its kinda like a sweet 6 year old girl who sees a fuzzy stray dog and wants to take it home. Unfortunately, the dog is rabid. But in your heart its just oh so cute and your dad is just the meanest for not letting you keep him.

Hamas are killers people. They use their arab brothers like fodder as they cynically foment war with israel. There will be no peace until these extremists are neutralized. I wish there was an easy way to do it.

msiddiqu :

"Hamas does not recognize Israel, but PLO does. So what does PLO has to show. We need to create facts on the ground not by killing but provide tangible non-occupational results."

I'm not a fan of Fatah, but a case can be made that the lives of Palestinians in parts of the West Bank have improved over the last year.

PA police have taken over security responsibility for several major West Bank cities, most notably Jenin, once a hotbed of terrorism. As a result there has been an increase in infrastructure investment, (e.g., upgrading Jenin's sewage treatment facilities) as well as job opportunities (establishment of an industrial park, a substantial increase in permits to work in Israel). Depending on the performance of these units, further deployments are scheduled.

That being said, the PA still has a long way to go before it can be considered competent to govern responsibly.

As far as Gazan deaths creating a desire for vengenace against Israel, the surest way to prevent furhter such fatalities is for the Palestinians to realize how closely their opportunity for independence is tied to Israel's fortunes. (If not for Israel and the Zionist movement the West Bank and Gaza would be a part of Egypt, Syria or Jordan (or even Suadi Arabia) and the idea of a separate Palestinian state would have most likely never seen the light of day.)

Looking for excuses to spill Jewish blood or for reasons why Israel should not exist does nothing to expedite the creation of a free and independent Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza.

Montaner writes "Israelis are being accused of suffering too few casualties," "[w]hile...close to a [1000] Arab Palestinians have died or been wounded." This is not the primary argument of the critics. The "assymetry" we are concerned about pertains to the political situation of the Palestinians. Hamas has not militarily occupied Israel in violation of Intl law, nor has Hamas fenced Israel in and imposed economic sanction on Israel, nor does Hamas prevent humanitarian aid to Israeli citizens. I am afraid it's the other way around. Hamas' rocket fire is obviously wrong, but if we are interested in stopping it, we should pay attention to the legitimate grievances underlying those immoral acts and do something about them, regardless of Hamas terror.

Furthermore, the fact that Hamas came to power in free, democratic elections monitored by the UN should give advocates of the Israeli government some pause when they proclaim the righteousness of their cause. Also, the fact that Hamas has publicly supported a 2 state settlement on the June 1967 borders should give them pause, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/970807.html, when Israel and the US routinely reject that sensible proposal, supported by virtually the entire world, because Hamas has refused to renounce terrorism and recognize Israel. Although i do not agree with Hamas position here, anyone with their brain screwed on can see why they do it; namely, they do not want to recognize Israel when Israel refuses to recognize their legal rights to statehood. If Montaner brings up "anti-semitism" in response to these arguments, it only reveals the weakness of his own.

"Given how Jews are treated by Arabs, would you agree then that Palestinians are regarded as only good for cannon fodder against the Jews by their Arab "cousins"?"

Here is a nice quote from a member of the PLO executive committee:

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity, because it is in the interest of the Arabs to encourage a separate Palestinian identity. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel."

Timothy 2me

"Hamas won elections because they provided food and medical care for their constituants where Fatah was seen as corrupt."

To a degree you are correct. However one of the other reasons Hamas won was because Fatah thought that the more candidates it fielded the better it would do. As a result, there were instances where there were several Fatah candidates standing for the same seat against only one Hams candidate. I believe Hamas won with something like 40-45% of the popular vote, with Fatah candidates winning nearly all the rest.

Coupled with the disgust over Fatah's incompetence was the fear (mostly in the West Bank) of Hamas' religious extremism.

That said, what does your response have to do with my statement that "Hamas spends a small fortune importing arms and preparing for war with Israel without spending a single penny on the protection of its constituents."? Running charities and clinics is a lot different than exposing those who voted for you to the dangers of war without any thought for their safety.

" ...Palestinians are the Jews of the Arabic speaking world..."

Given how Jews are treated by Arabs, would you agree then that Palestinians are regarded as only good for cannon fodder against the Jews by their Arab "cousins"?

"Iran and Syrian leadership are Shiites where Hamas is Sunni. Shiites will not give up their lives to protect Sunni while Sunni kill Shiites at every chance."

Actually, the Syrian leadership is Alawite, not Shiite, and despite what you say, 70,000 Iranian Shiite Muslims signed up to fight in Gaza against Israel. It was the Iranian government that prevented them from going.

"The only reason Iran stepped into the financial void created by Israel and the US with their blockade was to return a poke in the eye of Bush, not for some love of Hamas."

As I documented in my previous post, Iran has been involved in providing material and financial support to Hamas since the early 90's. They see Hamas as a relatively cheap means of sticking it to their rivals for leadership in the Arab world, namely Egypt and Saudi Arabia, as well as a way to spill Israeli blood without spilling a drop of their own. I agree that their relationship with Hamas is a marriage of expediency, not borne out of any particular affinity, but that is precisely my point - that they have no problem sacrificing the lives of others to further their own agenda.

"More than happy to clear up your befuddled mind."

If only you could separate fact from fiction.

"give me 20% of ur land"

They both lived there. It was both of their lands. They weren't getting along so well. An 80/20 split is not so bad. You know what they say about good fences.

"that they would never attack Israel again?"

Anyone can attack Israel. But they might not like the results. They shouldn't complain when they lose. It is not a game. There are no 'do overs.'

Israel IS a sovereign nation and the fact we are having this debate at all is absurd.

Timothty2me

It's been a long time Timmy... since the days of the NYT forums, right?

You said...

"Yes Hamas is a violent organization that calls for the destruction of Israel but it is an organization that Israel supported, nurtured and protected to undermine Fatah."

Is that why Israel arrested Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, founder and leader of Hamas until his death in 2004, in 1984, three years before the formation of Hamas' political wing? He got into trouble as soon as Israel found him to be involved in activities other than the charitable work Hamas was ostensibly created to involve itself in. Arresting and incarcerating the leader of an organization is not my idea of supporting, nurturing or protecting it.

"Yes Iran funds Gaza but that funding didn't start until the Israel and the US started an economic blockade on Gaza because Hamas won elections."

Iran has been funding Hamas saince the early 1990's -

'...Iran's ties to Hamas grew stronger after October 1992, when a Hamas delegation led by Dr. Musa Abu Marzook visited Tehran for meetings with key Iranian figures, including the Islamic Republic's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khameinei. According to some reports, Iran pledged an annual $30 million subsidy to Hamas, in addition to a promise of weapons and advanced military training at revolutionary guard facilities in Iran, Lebanon, and Sudan. The following year, Hamas opened an office in Tehran, proclaiming that Iran and Hamas shared an "identical view in the strategic outlook toward the Palestinian cause in its Islamic dimension."...
http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=5167

"Yes Hamas broke the cease fire with their rockets but that cease fire also required and end to the physical blockade that was only increased in scope over 18 months."

There were no provisions to the ceasefire other than both sides commiting to not firing on each other. Israel was under no obligation to end economic sanctions.

Comparing Israel's operation to the Nazi's genocide is a gross perversion of history. Hamas is a TERRORIST organization that calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. Hamas has invested all of its finances and efforts in attacking Israel and has used terror and violence against Palestinian dissenters. Hamas has ignored the Security Council Resolution 1850 which calls upon it to cease its terrorist activities and recognize Israel. Moreover, it has ignored similar requests from the international community. Israel's military operation is an act of self-defense, a right enshrined in Article 51 of the the United Nations Charter. Israel is doing what every nation is entitled to do: acting against those who willfully are attacking its citizens. The loss of innocent Palestinian lives is PAINFUL. But the unfortunate reality is that the casualties incurred among uninvolved Palestinians are the direct result of the cynical Hamas policy of using them as human shields by placing its bases, command posts and arms caches in the heart of population centers. How is Israel suppose to defend its citizens? Should it aimlessly pound rockets at innocent civilians as Hamas does??? Israel is making every effort to avert a humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip by supplying fuel, food, medical supplies and other humanitarian assistance to Palestinians in Gaza, despite Hamas attacks on Israel civilians. The IDF is acting with care while waging war against Hamas by warning the people with flyers, telephone calls and other methods. Before one uses words such as 'genocide', 'holocaust', or 'terrorism' to describe Israel's military operation, he/she should reflect DEEPLY on his own knowledge of history as well as on his own humanity.

First, what in blazes is all the flap about "recognizing Israel's right to exist"? Does that mean that if you crushed the Palestinians until they were completely broken and cried "Uncle!!" by affirming Israel's right to exist, that they would never attack Israel again? If it's meaningless, why insist on it, what kind of red herring is that?

Second, please stop with all the dopey comparisons that begin with, "Imagine if...". None of them so far bear any resemblance to the actual situation.

First, a former gang banger Sam Rodriguz, and now this idiot. Where are these stupid wetbacks coming from? Have jews gotten so lazy that they now need to pay beaners to do their propaganda, as well as clean their houses and work on their gardens?

CFL1968:
"'Palestine' W A S the british mandate. They invented it. There was no country of palestine."

Yes there was. Im not going to argue about historical facts here but let us assume for a moment that what u say is true, does this change anything? does it make it legitimate for a nation to take over another nation. I studied about the horrible history of discrimintaion the jews had suffered from in the last century, I actually visited a museum in Germany about the holocaust and the concentration camps, believe me i have every respect for those who suffered and tolerated all that unimaginable torture.
But please understand that this does not justify establishing a state over a nation already living there and against their own will! If u own a land, i cant come and tell u give me 20% of ur land against ur wish, not even 10 or 5%. It's about the principle.

In fact, if a nation is to torture another, the jewish nation of all others is the least expected to do so.

Any time someone starts by waving the "anti-Semite" flag you can predict they will hold one-sided views. And when you consider only one side of the issue, you cannot logically talk of proportionality because you have eliminated any basis of judgement.

Montaner simply lies. He accuses Hamas of breaking the cease-fire. Israel imposed a blockade - an act of war - while the ceasefire was presumably in effect. Israel continued assisinations. Israel invaded Gaza on November 4th.

Israel can negotiate with Hamas. Hamas offered all sorts of negotiations and concessions after winning the elections in Gaza. Israel and the US refused to negotiate with Hamas.

You can gauge the injustice of Israel's attack by the number of apologists they trot out to defend it.

"While Palestine was under the british mandate"

'Palestine' W A S the british mandate. They invented it. There was no country of palestine. The brits just decided to call the territories it acquired from the ottoman turks the palestine mandate. They could have called it 'bob's acres.' Do you then expect me to believe the myth of the nation of the 'bob's acrevites?' The vast majority of the people were immigrants from other countries anyway. The only time palestine was a sovereign nation was when it was called judea.

Seriously. People were displaced - both arabs and jews. That is terrible. But Israel does exist. There is no way the jews will put themselves at the mercy of people who have oppressed them for millenia and to this day vow to destroy them - or anyone else for that matter. I can appreciate that historical fact.

The 'palestinians' have their homeland. Its called Jordan. An 80-20 split of the palestine mandate is not really that unfair as things go.

If Israel's right to exist isn't accepted, then there will be perpetual war. And war doesn't seem to be helping the people in gaza very much.

Step back and think about it. If you provide any support for those who want war with israel, dont complain when you get war.

To Homesower :

"Hamas is a political movement. Its also a terrorist organization. If the Democrats, or the Tories, or the Chrisian Socialists packed dynamite around their youth and sent them to blow up their enemies they would be terrorists too. Their grievances may be legitimate. Their methods are not".

Can we say the same about Israel who is bombing hundrends of civilians esp women and children at this very moment?

CFL1968 wrote:

"Israel is about 1% of the the arab world. Arabs have plenty of land."

so wut's ur point? let's just kick out palestinians from their homeland to make room for jews bcz arabs have "plenty of land"?!

Your reference of information has probably modified the facts to decieve u into thinking that things were so simple and obvious so u can accept it more readily i presume.

How would you react if someone told u u have to leave ur home and find another place to live in it or they're gonna blow it up with u in it?! Seriously try to imagine.

While Palestine was under the british mandate, a non-righeous promise to enforce a state for the jews on the western part of the PALESTINIAN mandate was given by non-righeous members; the british! (Belfour's declaration in 1947) It was never their land to "give" it to the jews or any body else in the first place. Try to understand this please. Imagine ur neighbour sells out ur house to a new family and asks u to leave. Try to imagine telling the people living there to leave their homes because the occupiers (the british) were going to replaced by new occupiers (the jews). Would you agree to that? Of course not. No one would. It was either this or they fight.
It is not like how they make u picture it as if Palestinians wanted to kill the jews. On the contrary, they were living peacefully side by side with them (the original jews who were living in Palestine for decades not the ones who migrated from all over the world later on).

You said: "Hamas and other terror groups are trying to 'liberate' a country that never existed and displace a un member state"

U said it urself, PALESTINE Mandate. Just because a land is occupied does not mean it does not exist! They made it seem like a land with no people is given to a people with no land. But that was not true. Palestinians were living there for centuries. It doesn't matter what name u give it, it is their land, the one they loved and grew on it. Period.

If u call those who stand up for their right to defend their country terrorists, then Israel is the biggest terrorist in the world.

CFL1968 wrote:

"Israel is about 1% of the the arab world. Arabs have plenty of land."

so wut's ur point? let's just kick out palestinians from their homeland to make room for jews bcz arabs have "plenty of land"?!

Your reference of information has probably modified the facts to decieve u into thinking that things were so simple and obvious so u can accept it more readily i presume.

How would you react if someone told u u have to leave ur home and find another place to live in it or they're gonna blow it up with u in it?! Seriously try to imagine.

While Palestine was under the british mandate, a non-righeous promise to enforce a state for the jews on the western part of the PALESTINIAN mandate was given by non-righeous members; the british! (Belfour's declaration in 1947) It was never their land to "give" it to the jews or any body else in the first place. Try to understand this please. Imagine ur neighbour sells out ur house to a new family and asks u to leave. Try to imagine telling the people living there to leave their homes because the occupiers (the british) were going to replaced by new occupiers (the jews). Would you agree to that? Of course not. No one would. It was either this or they fight.
It is not like how they make u picture it as if Palestinians wanted to kill the jews. On the contrary, they were living peacefully side by side with them (the original jews who were living in Palestine for decades not the ones who migrated from all over the world later on).

You said: "Hamas and other terror groups are trying to 'liberate' a country that never existed and displace a un member state"

U said it urself, PALESTINE Mandate. Just because a land is occupied does not mean it does not exist! They made it seem like a land with no people is given to a people with no land. But that was not true. Palestinians were living there for centuries. It doesn't matter what name u give it, it is their land, the one they loved and grew on it. Period.

If u call those who stand up for their right to defend their country terrorists, then Israel is the biggest terrorist in the world.

Dear Mr. Montaner,
Thank you for writing this article—like some other posters I think it’s “the truth that needs to be told”, and told over and over again. I truly feel sorry for the Israelis, who want to live their lives in peace and harmony and cannot. And I truly feel sorry for the Gazans and other Palestinians who want to live their lives free of the terror of the thugs holding them hostage—thugs who thrive on terror, injuring/killing Israelis, Gazans, anyone who (shudder) disagrees with them or who gets in their way. Mind you, one doesn’t even have to get in their way to be wiped out—they hide amongst their own civilians because it will make Israel look bad when “innocents” are killed. Imagine: a Middle East that thrives, where people live reasonably happy and productive lives, valuing life and holding it precious, contributing art, poetry, music, science to the world. When and how are Palestinians going to turn off the terror/fear/hate/death-mongers and start down the road to life, living harmoniously, pursuing human kindness, and nurturing life. I only wish it were possible without bloodshed, but I think much more will be spilled, and more lies created and promoted to maintain the death-idolatry of hamas, hezbollah and their ilk.

The left wingers always attack any writer that supports our best ally Israel and writes the truth about Hamas or other terrorists. They use such trite tired expressions as he is off his meds, what has he been smoking, he is employed by AIPAC, he is delusional, but they never, ever come up with anything approaching an intelligent argument.

Hamas has no defense. Israel has the right to wipe them out. They are terrorists and have killed innocent people in Gaza, put them in harms way and in Israel they killed innocent civilians. They are evil incarnate.

No topic of modern history is as complex as the Israel Arab interrelationship. Religious, political, international justice and military science play certainly in this chronic and sad scenario. As a foreign citizen I would suggest to the UNO a review of its role as an antiwar organization.
No country of the world should sponsor any side and by the nature of this situation peace negotiations should continue.
Both countries deserve better living standards that never result from bullets interchange.
If a country or countries are unable to configure a peaceful environment, UNO can definetely help for some time to administer security. This universal government knows deeply what is the matter there and how to get peace finally.

To Amani1:
"To those who believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization, you have been -intentionally- misinformed. Hamas, just like Fateh and all other palestinian liberation organizations, is nothing but a political movement devoted to give back the palestinians their stolen land from their oppresser -Israel"
Hamas is a political movement. Its also a terrorist organization. If the Democrats, or the Tories, or the Chrisian Socialists packed dynamite around their youth and sent them to blow up their enemies they would be terrorists too. Their grievances may be legitimate. Their methods are not.

Last time I checked, Gaza had a border with Egypt as well. What obligation does Israel have to interact with the Palestinians? Why is there no pressure on the Egyptians? They are complicit in this as well.

To Faithemanus:

Do you understand what indiscriminate means? Indiscriminate is what Hamas has been doing with their rockets. The Israel attacks are targeted at military threats. That Hamas houses its weapons in urban areas makes it nearly impossible to take them out without also hurting civilians.

faithemanus,

what you are saying would make sense if the idf were deliberately targeting civilians. hamas, whose core belief is the destruction of israel, definitely targets civilians. this is not in dispute. they are a terror orgaization. they staged a bloody coup and took over gaza dragging the bloodied bodies of their palestinian brothers through the street. they violate international law by hiding among civilians and using civilian facilities for military purposes. this is not in dispute. israel must restrict the flow of weapons to hamas and yes it places immense burdons on the people. hamas knows this.

do you think for one moment that if hamas officially renounced violence and accepted israel that any of this would be happening?

israel already pulled out of gaza years ago and would love to be done with them.

Anyone who supports Israel in this war has no conscience, or defiantly misinformed. I have been watching what is going on in Gaza, and I am already having a nightmare I would like to summaries it with the following, Imaging you are inside your house and someone demolish it on top of you and your family. As a result you lose half of your loved one, and guess what the perpetrator would say “this is because of your president and his foreign policy”. For the love of god people, most of the killed are women and children more than 971 killed and 4500 badly injured as we speak, whatever justification those pro-Israel are trying to sell is pure crime. We defiantly should speak up.

Montaner,
How much would you celebrate or (cry) if this was turned around? Assume Hamas is doing the indiscriminate bombing and killing of children, women and elderly. Assume Hamas is blockading Israel and preventing medicine, food and electricity. Then you must support Hamas's killing much the same as you are supporting this inhuman massacre. Dare you do that? If not you are a hypocrite.
Humanity in war dictates fighting warriors, not killing children to pressure the warrior to surrender. That is terrorism and that is exactly what Israel is practicing in this war and in 2006. Israel must be stopped as its leaders have lost any sense and must be tried for war crimes.

This article is really disgusting. The author does not seem to have a human brain. Who the hell has asked that Israel should have more casualties ? All we demand is to stop the massacre of innocent civilians. How is it possible to write that killing as many people as possible is the normal course of a war ? Are you crazy ?

Mr. Montaner is eloquent and wise. No nation in history has fought as humanely as Israel, and none has fought as savagely as Hamas.

The author of this op-ed is ignorant.

Israel broke the cease-fire not Hamas. Most importantly, Israel violated the truce with the blockade of Gaza. A blockade is an act of war. Israel also violated the truce with their attacks on the 4th of Nov.

Montaner writes "Israelis are being accused of suffering too few casualties," "[w]hile...close to a [1000] Arab Palestinians have died or been wounded." This is not the primary argument of the critics. The "assymetry" we are concerned about is the political situation of the Palestinians. Hamas has not militarily occupied Israel in violation of Intl law, nor has Hamas fenced Israel in and cut off their capital flow, nor does Hamas prevent humanitarian aid to Israeli citizens. I am afraid it's the other way around. Hamas' rocket fire is obviously wrong, but if we are interested in stopping it, we should pay attention to the legitimate grievances underlying those immoral acts, and do something about them. Why? Because they are legitimate. Furthermore, it should give advocates of the Israeli government some pause about the righteousness of their position when Hamas succeeded in free democratic elections monitored by the UN. Also, the fact that Hamas has publicly supported a 2 state settlement on the June 1967 borders should also give them pause, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/970807.html, when Israel and the US routinely rejects that sensible proposal, supported by virtually the entire world, because Hamas has refused to renounce terrorism and recognize Israel. Although i do not agree with Hamas here, anyone with their brain screwed on can see why they do it; namely, they do not want to recognize Israel when Israel refuses to recognize them. If Montaner brings up "anti-semitism" in response to these arguments, it only reveals the weakness of his own.

A large number of commenters seemed to be confused and struggling with what they call the goal of Hamas to "demolish" Israel. So let me clear up this confusion for u:

To those who believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization, you have been -intentionally- misinformed. Hamas, just like Fateh and all other palestinian liberation organizations, is nothing but a political movement devoted to give back the palestinians their stolen land from their oppresser -Israel. If u can go back 60 years in history, you may -or may not- have heard of the palestinians who were massacred and kicked out of their homes by gun force upon which the state of Israel enforced its existence. Some were killed, others survived and ended up living in refugee camps in countries all over the world. There are now about 4.6 million Palestinians living outside their homeland Palestine (more than half of its population are refugees!). And let me tell u this: the quality of life they are living in exile sucks! Most are under the line of poverty with not enough food or money to fullfill their needs.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/index.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVCY-CKTW50&feature=PlayList&p=A9377B2C9F8A5CDA&playnext=1&index=22

You say Israel has the right to defend its civilians? But don't the Palestinians also have the right to defend their existence, their right to live peacefully on their stolen away country?

Dear Mr. Montaner, thank you for your reasoned and thoughtful article.

It boggles the mind that nobody critical of Israel remembers 2000 and the smiling and joking Arafat and Ehud Barak with Bill Clinton -- seemingly on the eve of brokering a Palestinian state! It went nowhere because, well, the Palestinian leadership "never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity."(Abba Eban) The "why's" of this are clear -- the leadership has always had their own agenda -- at the complete and utter expense of their own people.

People should read Jeffrey Goldberg's blog.He is thoughtful and even-handed, with a perspective gained by living in different "worlds".

One comment from January 6, 2009 is quite illustrative of some of what is going on in this present situation. He says, "It's absolutely astonishing to me how interested the world is in Israel's failings. This is the source of a bitter but hilarious observation I once heard a Kurdish leader make: He was complaining to me that his people were cursed, and I asked him what he meant: Cursed by geography, cursed by their proximity to Kurd-hating Arabs, what? He said the Kurds were cursed because they didn't have Jewish enemies. Only with Jewish enemies would the world pay attention to their plight."

I, as a Jewish American mother, become terribly upset and cry when seeing the Palestinian children who have been hurt and killed, as much as for an Israeli child (although I know many of the posters will not believe this, it is true.)

But honestly, where is the world's same outrage and "righteous" indignation over the situation in Darfur, or Zimbabwe, or for that matter, where was it during Rawanda . . .

"Israelis are being accused of taking too few casualties." What a disgusting and false accusation, and in the very first sentence! No one is calling for more death, except Israel and Hamas.

If you can't tell the difference between sympathy for civilian casualties and imaginary calls for Jewish blood, you are so blind to the humanity of your enemies that you have become what you despise.

Palestinians are unfortunate to have the legacy resistance forced upon them by world powers. And now Israel claims to have high moral ground? It is inherent human weakness.

@Mearleman
You cannot peacefully coexist with someone who want to kill you. Right, especially if you have just stolen their land are occupying it, killing their leaders, women ,children, using bullets and bombs that are prohibited under International law, and defying the U N.
Civilized people who respect Humanity, love freedom, and respect the law also believe that all others, including Israel should do likewise.
If you disagree then , Bla Bla Bla .Oh grow up and stop with your childish nonsense, it' getting a bit old.

Israel has inherent sense of insecurity. The design is greater Israel and Hamas is a God Given Gift for Israel to build the strongest army in the world at the expense of American money, honor and blood. What the heck, we should no longer sacrifice over one billion people for five million Jews. Let them face the reality and adjust accordingly. Too much American power and prestige is sacrificed for a strip of land.

You can not peacefully coexist with someone who wants to kill you. Unless Israel has a death wish there can not be peace with Hamas. Either Israel must accede to Hamas's demands, and their own destruction, or Hamas must cease to exist as a terrorist threat.

Civilized people, who respect humanity and love freedom, believe the second option is the only one which offers hope. If you disagree you are, by definition, anti-Semite, hateful, and a bigot. Unfortunately, you have lots of company. Bigotry and hate insures that there will continue to be, by necessity, "wars and rumors of wars" for a very long time to come.

Too many moral justification for Israel, but it is the Palestinians that bleed for over 50 years. Where do you fit this simple truth in your moral equation for Israel??? No matter what and everything has been done, in terms of violating human rights and committing crimes against humanity, Israel will still be victorious in western media particularly Washington Post, Netwrok News and New Channel. Just the numbers of Jews controlling New Media gives a very clear picture of where Israel would stand. Imagine if Israel wasn't a Jewish state, what would you think? Would it get away so much crime for 50 years. Palestinians are wrong once, twice....but for 50 years? There is something fundamentally wrong with timing and placing of Israel on Palestinian soil.

Then to be proportional Israel should fire one indiscriminate missile into Gaza for every rocket the animals of Hamas has fired into their country for the last 3 years.
Is this really what you think? That would cause many more casualties then you are complaining about now, the only difference would be more Hamas people would be dead than civilians. I hope the Israelis finish the job this time and let Hamas know they can live in peace or be buried.

"Proportionality" whatever else this is it is a waek Straw man argument. For another European opinion from a columnist familiar with such equivocation.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0113/1231738220178.html

Why do Israel fight Hamas?
Hamas is an extremist islamic movement. Like Al-Quaida and Hizbulla they are against democracy, against the western cutlure and they don't value human rights.
Hamas captued Gaza with armed forces, slaughtering the non-radical Fatach palestinians. A lot of Hamas rivals - palestinian people- were executed recently in cold blud by Hamas.
According to Hamas, Israel has no right to exist at all. This organization is so extreme that it refuses any sort of peace with Israel.
Israel doesn't want to conquer Gaza. Peace is much better. But daily missile fire on Israeli civilians forced the operation. It is the right of any coutry to defend it's civilians. A lot of the distrucion and dead civilians in Gaza is caused by Hamas, which sets explosives in schools and traps houses.
Israel is very concerned about the humaniterian situation in Gaza and enforces a daily cease fire in order to enable the palestinian civilians get food, which Israel provides.
Palestinians in the west bank live in relative peace with Israel. Even their leader, Abu Mazen, accused Hamas for it's responsibility for the war and killing of civilians. Amazing? not. He realizes that Hamas is a threat to the peace process and to the chance to have normal ilfe in both sides.
Israeli citizens hope that the war would end soon and we can have a normal and peaceful life with the palestinians.

Having read carefully through many of the comments here, I have to ask how familiar pro-Hamas / anti-Israel posters are with the history of Palestinian violence? There's a reason why *Egypt* keeps *its* border closed and doesn't want Israel to dump the "Gaza Problem" on it. Just ask the Jordanians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

No, most of Palestinian's outraged Arab brethren are like a number of posters in this thread: glad to bask in the warm glow of Israel-bashing sanctimony -- not so eager to actually do anything meaningful about it.

Awhile back, a columnist (name escapes me) wrote that, if the Palestinians were to employ the creative non-violence of Dr. King or Ghandi, they would have had a successful state years ago. I've yet to see anyone who supports Hamas argue for the benefits of provocation against civilian targets as a strategy. Instead, the arguments seem to rest largely on "disproportionality" that apparently places a great deal of value on the Hamas's lack of ability -- not intent -- to destroy Israel.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1229777020070312

What is happening in Gaza is tragic and the Israelis are by no means blameless... but (to have any credibility) any opinion about how horrible Israel is would have to begin with some sort of acknowledgement that Hamas is SWORN TO DESTROY ALL OF ISRAEL. Perhaps you could, e.g., come up with an analogy in which someone with a history of violence has sworn to kill you and all your family but you're somehow OK with it?

The first fact is that Israel was a nation built out of despaeration. When the Jews returned to the "holy land," the British in the area at the time actually tried to stop them, right after WWII actually. Furthermore, the Isrealies were already under a barage of attacks from fanatical Arab nations all over. The Palistinians, in my opinion, were dooped by the surrounding countries to flee, even when the Jews begged them to stay and fight with them. The Yom Kippur War and the 1964 war were tremendous victories against the Arab states. Even with the Peace Accords between them and Egypt and Jordan, other Arab countries still vow to destroy them. I do agree that the treatment of these refugees is horendous. But, why should the Israelies be the only ones who rely have to deal with them, when clearly the mass emigration is the fault of Isreal's hateful neighbors? Israel is defending herself now, as it has been since its very existence. Hamas is and will always be an illigitimate government in my eyes, just like Hezbolla and the Iranian governments because it is built on the premise to destroy not just another country or civilization, but race in all terms. Isreal should go in all the way to Gaza, protect its refugees and totally and effectively oust and destroy these fanatical groups. Furthmore, all clerics should realize that Islam and Christianity stem from Judaism and therefore be held in reverence and not contempt. The Jews have had enough predujice aimed at them, it is now their turn to act on what is most important. Their mission is not to only stablize their country and regions, but to save her populations, survive, and prosper, as every other country in that region has done for more than a millenium. I just wish that the Palestinians would be albe to merge with the Israelis and create a new state with out fanactism and make sectarian. Religion is the cause for many many wars and injustices. Start from scratch, keep a premanent peace force from multiple nations, and educate love and tollerance, not hate and ignorance.

To me what is disproportionate is the illogical, senseless, mindlessness hatred of Israel as compared to any criticism whatsoever of Hamas. The accusations that Israel is starving the Palestinians etc makes me furious. Voting for Hamas as a government is tantamout to the people of East LA voting for the Cryps or the Bloods gangs to govern them. But even worse because of the nature of religious fanaticism and holy war which makes the idea of a secular peace an affront to god.

I hear Hamas, and these vacuous bleeding heart Euro phonies cry out and wring their hands that the Palestinian people are starving and have no clean water while these insane Hamas hypocrits manage to transport into Gaza tons of Kassam missles via underground tunnels. Somehow it never occured to them or Israel's critics that these same tunnels could be used to bring in water and supplies during the seige that would necessarily follow their attacks. Hamas continuously attacks Israel and yet does not lift a finger to guard and make provisions to have a safe harbor area for their people, and instead use their mosques and schools as launch sites!

However, that all goes unnoticed. Instead of the world crying out that Hamas must take care of its people responsibly and absolutely recognize Israel and make peace to end the people's suffering at long last, the world condemns Israel as being vicious and blood thirsty and demands that Israel look out for the Gazan's well being!

I am so fed up with the sanctimonious outrage of the so called international community, that I could scream. Egging on, sympathizing and finding excuses for the violent actions of these extreme fanatical groups can very possibly lead to a complete annihilation of the Jewish state and its people just as Hamas has said over and over and over again that it plans to do. What will the clueless peaceniks and jew haters have to say about proportionality then?

Did the United States make a proportional response to the attack on Pearl Harbor? We did not. Hamas is a terrorist organization that took Gaza by force killing Palestinians by the hundreds to do so. That they have killed Israelis and their tourists for years with bombs on buses and other public places makes them unfit for further existence. They kill Palestinians who have music played at their weddings. They hide behind and sign up children to kill Israelis and they have a Charter defining their lust for blood from every Jew and declining any negotiated peace. This from the Los Angeles Times today. I am not surprised. The women of Gaza danced in the streets to celebrate the deaths of 3000 innocent people on 9/11:

January 13, 2009

Reporting from Tyre, Lebanon — Hiba Qassir dreams of making movies. She's ambitious and precocious enough. At 18, she's taught herself how to edit video and sound on a computer, and has her sights set on directing gripping social and psychological dramas.

But if the movie business doesn't work out, that's OK. She has other dreams: perhaps to become a cop or a pilot. Or maybe a suicide bomber.

"Martyrdom is the shortest way to heaven, and the history of martyrdom is not like any history," Hiba says. "It made victory. We wouldn't have achieved victory without these martyrdoms."

These forums are very enlightening in that they show the depths of hatred and ignorance humans hold. Very few if any people who have commented want to engage in discussion - rather, they prefer to vomit out their half digested propaganda based on misinformation. It would be interesting to have a discussion where there were at least a few base line facts were agreed upon.

But it could probably be boiled down to one camp not believing that Israel should (or does) exist, and one camp believing that, at least as a fait accompli, it should and does exist.

This was revealing:

"But now we get Israelis filling the posts, the bloodthirsty...uncivilized ranting. Sneering and snide, no conception of decenty. Or humanity.
From a group that's been hated in every century, in every country they ever set foot. And anti-semitism is raging again all over the world, every European country, tens of thousands anti Israel demosntrations. (they are all stupid, don't know the truth, right?)"

Can't you feel the hatred? For every misguided 'kumbaya let's save the cute rabid stray dog hamas,' there are other more sinister forces. Mass rallies against the jews. The truth finally comes out. You can be sure that Israelis see this.

You will have to pry their guns from their cold dead hands because they will not put their security into the hands of a capricious world that is all too ready to let the mob savage them.

I am not jewish nor israeli, but understanding a little bit of history I can appreciate their position.

This guy is a syndicated writer in Spain?

Spain, by the way, put out 30,000 anti israeli
demonstrators last weekend. Was one of the angrier demonstrations. Though they all were, petty much.

Hamas hates Jews! Their sole purpose in existence is to destroy them by any means possible. Their indiscriminate killing by rockets and suicide bombers prove it. For the Israeli it means irreconcilable differences. You can not peacefully coexist with someone who has an stated and expressed desire to kill you. Some seem not to get this, so let me state the obvious for clarity. Unless you have a death wish there can not be peace with Hamas. Either Israel must agree to Hamas demands, and die peacefully, or Hamas must be compelled to quit trying to destroy them. Most Israelis will find the second option as the more desirable solution. If you disagree, that makes you an anti-Semite, a hater, and a bigot. Unfortunately, you have lots of company which also means there will continue to be "wars and rumors of wars" for the foreseeable future, until one or the other succeeds.

Montaner is a life-long CIA political hack. His writing "credentials" and "journalist" credentials are fully, 100% Agency-created. He has been a mouthpiece for Agency disinformation, propaganda, and manipulations since 1962. His credibility is zero.

I keep reading about Hamas desire to destroy Israel and we know this will not happen. The problem is Hamas is considered a terrorist organization that was elected in a democratic process with the US blessing. Instead of the uS talking with Hamas they put stiulation on them that they had to abide by before we the US would talk with them, yet at the same time Irsael is in violation of several UN resolution and the US says nothing.

Israel hands are not clean in this war. Israel has no intention of being fair with the Palestians or else they would stop building settlements in the West Bank. One other thing: why would Israel want peace when we have equiped them with the lastest and greatest weapons to take what they cannot negoiate away?

I am sorry but Israel does want to kill Palestinians. To try and claim that Israel's military goons are somehow higher, more moral characters is just not realistic.

The shelling of helpless civilians in Gaza is not the moral highground. That would be if IDF soldiers stopped and refused orders to kill the innocent.

Look at how Israel has acted before, Qana, Sabra and Chatilla. Do you think anything is different this time? Oh yeah! There are cameras filming everything.

Hamas has openly stated that's its goal is extermination of the state of Israel.
In addition since Israeli withdrawal from Gaza strip Israeli border town been bombarded daily from Gaza side.
During that time Israel continued to provide electricity, fuel and humanitarian aid to Gaza strip.
The key to stop the violence is in HAMAS hands.
All the Palestinians have to do is stop bombarding Israel.
But apparently HAMAS prefers keep shooting and, hide behind civilian population and steal its food and supplies.

I don't think anyone is using the disproportionate number of Palestinian casualties as the sole reason for questioning Israel's response. The numbers are simply a barometer of the level of response and begs the question as to whether Israel is going too far.

I find it stunning that, as usual, any questioning of Israel suddenly means anti-Semitism. Get real. I am sick of Israel and its supporters expecting everyone to accept all they do at face value. No country or people should expect that. Ever.

And we have to question the writer's bias. I did not see him mention spending any time in Gaza but he has obviously spent time in Israel. If that is true, what he says must be evaluated for bias to Israel. I don't care that he says what he says but everyone who reads his work must also be aware of any leanings and it's important that it is questioned publicly.

No one expects Israel to be happy about rockets from Gaza. And Israel should not expect many to happy about the number of deaths of Gazans (Hamas or not) when compared to Israel's in this situation.

This situation was made more complicated by the election that put Hamas in power. Just another in a long list of things to thank Bush and friends for...

Israelis hide behind their Fighter jets, Tanks, heavy Artillery. and over 250 nuclear bombs and cry helpless victim. Palestinians who are all cramped together, Ghetto style, and have nowhere to hide use, primitive missiles, small arms, and stone throwing to defend their occupied lands.
As spectators, the rest of us need only to watch what the Israeli's do and not what they say. While Israel continues to plays the role of used car salesman to the rest of the world, we need be weary for we have already been deceived by the many institutions that have caused this global meltdown.

So now Pope Benedict XVI says Israel has turned Gaza into, "a big concentration camp." A lowly act similar to Bush's performance in Iraq.

Dead UN workers, women and children by the hundreds. No food, no water, no electricity, no medical care, no where safe.

Everyone knows what God wants:
"Thou shalt not kill,"
Not an idea, not a request, but a COMMANDMENT from God to the Jews.
Thou Shall Not Kill!

So start with not killing.
Add in a little justice and compassion.
Love thy neighbor as one's self.
Then the God of Muslims, Jews, and Christians will create peace and justice for Israel and the Palistinians.

What you said is true Carlos however the Palestinians are still an oppressed people nonetheless with 50% unemployment and with the US, the UN, or the Arab league for that matter unwilling to provide the basic essentials for hope and reconciliation.

I agree with the analysis of Mr.Montaner. Israel takes exceptional care to avoid civilian casualties. Rarely do other nations take such care. And rarely are nations as justified in their actions as the Israelis are at present.

The world in general, and even the United States, is far from being dominated by Jewish opinion as the anti-Semites so loudly proclaim. Rather, it is the Islamists, overempowered by bloated oil revenues, who have gotten the world to swallow parts of their distorted view of reality in their quest for world domination. If the Islamic imperialists who are now using the Palestinian refugees as a tool to get rid of Israel ever succeed, this will just free them up for further attacks on Democratic "Western" institutions.

I applaud Israel for fighting back and I hope and pray that Israel will continue until she has completely destroyed the military power of Hamas.

We must do one thing, NEVER equate Criticism of Israeli to anti-semitism. If we do that then anti-semitism will become a fair game all over.

Many readers feel that killing disproportionate Palestinians is justified to keep Israel safe. Well, are we approaching a "Final Solution" for Isareli security. Killing more Palestinian will eventually make Israel less secure. Because if it is the Final Solution, then it is just the begining. We have not seen anything yet. Watching the killing of family members, does not breed love for Israel but in fact a desire for revenge is born.

Why don't we find a civilized solution to the problem and egos and prides need to be swallowed. Arrogance must take a back seat. present a hope to the Palestinians not words but actions.

Hamas does not recognize Israel, but PLO does. So what does PLO has to show. We need to create facts on the ground not by killing but provide tangible non-occupational results.

"Could it be that Hamas and its sponsors in Tehran and Damascus consider Palestinians to be subhuman?"

Iranian financial support didn't start until the financial blockade of Gaza where Israel froze Palestinian assets and the US cut off all aid. Palestinians are not absorbed into Lebanese, Syrian or Egyptian populations because they are a foreign people.

"Hamas spends a small fortune importing arms and preparing for war with Israel without spending a single penny on the protection of its constituents."

Hamas won elections because they provided food and medical care for their constituants where Fatah was seen as corrupt.

"Syria forbids its Palestinian residents, or anyone of Palestinian ancestry from obtaining Syrian citizenship."

That is because Palestinians are the Jews of the Arabic speaking world. Jews are Palestinians and vice versa.

"Iran recently forbade Iranian 'volunteers' from going to Gaza to fight the Israelis. At the same time both countries are pressuring Hamas not to accept a ceasefire."

Iran and Syrian leadership are Shiites where Hamas is Sunni. Shiites will not give up their lives to protect Sunni while Sunni kill Shiites at every chance.

The only reason Iran stepped into the financial void created by Israel and the US with their blockade was to return a poke in the eye of Bush, not for some love of Hamas.

More than happy to clear up your befuddled mind.

Yes Hamas is a violent organization that calls for the destruction of Israel but it is an organization that Israel supported, nurtured and protected to undermine Fatah.

Yes Iran funds Gaza but that funding didn't start until the Israel and the US started an economic blockade on Gaza because Hamas won elections.

Yes Hamas broke the cease fire with their rockets but that cease fire also required and end to the physical blockade that was only increased in scope over 18 months.

Terror is how the weak wage war and war is how the powerful wage terror.

"Soothe the peculiar itch for parity" is just a great phrase and wonderful writing. Israel's detractors seem unable to explain it, so they fume. If they had any dignity, they would fume quietly but they can't control their anti Semitic hate, so they blast away hereabouts.

Montaner is giving us more Zio-fascist drivel.

If Hamas didn't exist, Israel would have to invent it. Wait a minute, I'm sorry, Israel really did help invent Hamas!

Israel wants Hamas to represent the Palestinians. That would make it easier to implement Israel's Final Solution, mass ethnic cleansing. Israeli MK and political leader Avigor Leiberman explicitly advocates such a Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem.

And pathetically, he's welcome here in the USA. We do coddle terrorists, as long as they're the right terrorists.

To Soulflair158...

" One has to be impressed with your analytical/mathematical abilities, and your precise logic. I am sure this was the mind set that allowed people to design Zyklon chambers and prepare this turkey shoot in Gaza. Are you sure you understand that we are talking about CHILDREN here, or Palestinian children are subhuman and do not count?"

I don't consider any human to be better than the next, but you raise an interesting point... Could it be that Hamas and its sponsors in Tehran and Damascus consider Palestinians to be subhuman? Hamas spends a small fortune importing arms and preparing for war with Israel without spending a single penny on the protection of its constituents. Syria forbids its Palestinian residents, or anyone of Palestinian ancestry from obtaining Syrian citizenship. Iran recently forbade Iranian 'volunteers' from going to Gaza to fight the Israelis. At the same time both countries are pressuring Hamas not to accept a ceasefire.

Apparently it's still in fashion for other nations to fight Israel until the last drop of Palestinian blood.

BTW, comparing me or the Israelis to Nazis doesn't win you any debating points. What it does show is that, lacking any substantive evidence to support your argument, you feel the need to resort to insults.

In the eight years prior to 2009 the rockets killed thirteen Israelis. Over those same eight years Israeli security forces have killed 634 Palestinian children.

Now you may preemptively brand me an anti-Semite for taking note of these facts and maybe that will ease your conscious, assuming you have one, but it doesn't change those facts.

It may also make you feel better to change the facts and deflate the numbers of Palestinian killed and wounded. You put that number “close to a thousand “ but that is telling a lie when you know better. It may narrow that disproportion by reducing Palestinian casualties by 75% but even with that reduction the casualty difference is overwhelming.

Facts are things like of the 13 Israelis killed; 4 were killed by rockets and 4 were killed by friendly fire.

It isn’t the disproportion of the casualties that I question but the disproportionate military responses that generate those casualties. Remember, in 1967 Israel used the blockade of the Strait of Hormuz as a casus belli to start the Six Day War.

Hamburgers and hot dogs

People who insist on calling a cooked beef patty on bread a "hamburger" are stupid. Obviously, its a beef burger. I challenge anyone of these idiots to order a burger at McDonalds that has ham on it. You can't do it.

And as for hot dogs. That, too, is dumb. They aren't made from dogs. And besides, they don't have to be hot, you can eat them cold.

Likewise, my stereo system has six speakers. How can that be called a stereo? Its more like a "hexereo".

Kidnapping? What if you abduct an adult? Is it really still kidnapping?

But really, people are even stupider than you think. Hamburgers, even if they are made of ham, should never be called hamburgers because the word derives from a city in Germany. Why are we calling cooked beef between two slices of bread after city in Germany. It makes no sense I tell you.

And kidnapping? I mean even if you abduct a child, you arent napping with the child, unless you're a child molester. Again, people are using these words in the wrong way.

And the stupidest word by far is the word anti-semitism when it is used to mean Jew hater. The word Semite refers to speakers of a language group that generally includes both Hebrew and Arabic. So Semites include both Jews and Arabs. How can Arabs be labeled "anti-Semetic"? Are they against themselves? People who use this word to mean Jew hater are just dumb. Honestly, how can they get Jew hater out of anti-Semite when the biggest Jew haters in world nowadays are the Arabs? It makes no sense I tell you.

Thank you, Mr. Montaner, for a well written and reasonable analysis of the Middle East situation. Of course Israel's response to continued aggression by Gazans is proportionate. If anything, it is insufficient. Israel should obliterate Gaza--transfer the people to Egypt which is where their tribes are from, and remake Gaza into a prosperous and productive part of Israel. But instead they just keep tolerating this violent and barbaric group on their border which is sworn to destroy them.

What most people don't know is that Hamas is armed and funded now by Iran and Syria. It has become little more than a forward base for the Iranians and they have been supplying them with increasingly sophisticated weapons that can have only one purpose--to destroy Israel. Meanwhile, Gaza's economy flounders and poverty only increases there. The Gazans have wasted an opportunity to build a strong, independent state within their current borders and have sold their souls instead to the devil, trusting these outside entities to have their best interests at heart.

The doctor has the best tools but he is using a jackhammer to remove a tooth.
Burn the forest to flush the fox.
Disgusting.
Burn all the books, there might be subversion in there.
Throw them in the ring with the lions as an example, slay all the firstborne...
Bring them to their knees, for you are Pharoah.
Off with their heads, you are queen.
Peel their skin, hold their beating heart in your raised hand, oh great one, show your limitless power...
The lessons of brutality, of going beyond subduction and control, going beyond legitimate police action are all throughout history.
There is one example of true righteousness that you all know.
FOLLOW IT.
He carried no weapon.

Whoknows, Are you one of those people under the impression that there was a country called Palestine that was invaded by jews?

Seriously.

Just about every one of your assumptions is flat wrong.

"part or all of your country"

There was no country of Palestine. The unfortuitously named Palestine Mandate was a mish mash of former Ottoman Empire territories (poorly?) administered by the Brits after WWI. They split off a chunk 75-80% of the territory as land intended for the arabs. It was pretty clear to them that jews and arabs don't mix very well. Its a place we now call Jordan. The rest was intended as a jewish homeland (like it or not).

"all the citizens of your country"

Gaza was run by the Egyptians, and the West bank by the Jordanians, until they attacked Israel and lost the territories. These arabs in gaza or the west bank have big countries they could go back to if they wanted.

"banned any food or medicine from entering"

Well that isn't true and you know it. Israel of course is obligated to try to restrict the flow of weapons that are used against it by hamas, an organization whose very charter puts it at war with Israel.

Do any of you recall the irony of hamas complaining that Israel was reducing power deliveries to gaza when they were firing rockets at Israel?

To make a long story short, hamas wants war. If it made peace with Israel there would be no reason for it to exist. You might consider it a sort of institutional inertia that keeps hamas and other militants from letting gaza develop peacefully.

Its a tough situation to be sure.

CFL1968, all your justifications are false. Nothing prevented Israel from committing war crimes, Israelis don't really give a dam for any Palestinians whether he/she was a child, a women etc.

The Israeli army saw four kids around the bodies of their mothers and yet did not allow any aid workers to rescue them for four days. This is just a mini picture on how much Israel really care about human lives.

I don't care what was passed or overlooked at Geneva.
I don't care for any written rules of engagement or rhetoric from anywhere but from common sense.
You dont fight fire with fire in a house full of children.
Guilty.
Period
End of Subject.

WhoKnows1, if a country occupied part or all of your country, put all the citizens of your country in one big prison, and banned any food or medicine from entering to this prison, Who Knows what will you do?

"the brave Israeli army has not dared set foot inside Gaza City?"

I'm not sure how clear you are on the nature of urban combat, but it is pretty bloody and there is a lot of smoke and confusion. Your snide comments betray your ignorance. This is typical of you people. You shed crocodile tears for the civilians killed as hamas laughs all the way to the bank, and you incite further bloodshed.

What would happen to the arabs in gaza if the IDF stormed in and started clearing apartment blocks?

It is much safer for everyone that they pick and choose their targets carefully. It may come to an all out assault, but it is not something you should wish for if you care about the civilians there.

RandomGuy,

The majority of Spanish people are against this holocaust against Gaza.

I just want to add a comment to your comment about the Israeli hospital saving a Palestinian child (Who may got shot by the Israelis). The father of a Palestinian child who was killed by the Israeli army donated his child organs to save 6 or so Israeli children. But mentioning this does not support Carlos analysis or even washingtonpost support to Israel.

"Palestinians in Gaza are under occupation"

Um, well, actually, Israel pulled out several years ago.

Ah - thats great. I wonder what these esteemed lawyers have published regarding hamas et al and their war fighting methods? I wonder if we compared the two which side would be found straying further from international norms?

And if, it turns out that it is hamas and their buddies who are in gross violation every moment of their existence, then why are you complaining about Israel?

Eh?

Wars is a terrible thing and hamas should think hard about starting them.

Soulflari58,

Please get your facts straight. Hamas is funded by Iran and uses machine guns, rockets, IED's, and other bombs against the Israelis. And anywhere near Hamas? What do you think the IDF grond troops are doing? Most countries would not risk their own troops to save Pal civilians. The Hamas cowards are hiding under a hospital. They need to learn to fight like men

Sick sick sick.
Insane, disgusting, apalling.
Horrific and obscene.
The child throws a knife at daddy
so daddy declares war.
Daddy is an obnoxious, demanding, fat, loudmouth on welfare.

CFL1968, you are an alias so your interpretation to the international law are BS. All the following accused Israel of committing war crimes and breaking the international law:

Ian Brownlie QC, Blackstone Chambers

Mark Muller QC, Bar Human Rights Committee of England and Wales

Michael Mansfield QC and Joel Bennathan QC, Tooks Chambers

Sir Geoffrey Bindman, University College, London

Professor Richard Falk, Princeton University

Professor M Cherif Bassiouni, DePaul University, Chicago

Professor Christine Chinkin, LSE

Professor John B Quigley, Ohio State University

Professor Iain Scobbie and Victor Kattan, School of Oriental and African Studies

Professor Vera Gowlland-Debbas, Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies, Geneva

Professor Said Mahmoudi, Stockholm University

Professor Max du Plessis, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban

Professor Bill Bowring, Birkbeck College

Professor Joshua Castellino, Middlesex University

Professor Thomas Skouteris and Professor Michael Kagan, American University of Cairo

Professor Javaid Rehman, Brunel University

Daniel Machover, Chairman, Lawyers for Palestinian Human Rights

Dr Phoebe Okawa, Queen Mary University

John Strawson, University of East London

Dr Nisrine Abiad, British Institute of International and Comparative Law

Dr Michael Kearney, University of York

Dr Shane Darcy, National University of Ireland, Galway

Dr Michelle Burgis, University of St Andrews

Dr Niaz Shah, University of Hull

Liz Davies, Chair, Haldane Society of Socialist Lawyer

Prof Michael Lynk, The University of Western Ontario

Steve Kamlish QC and Michael Topolski QC, Tooks Chambers

And a lot more.

"instead bombing from a safe distance and killing everything?"

Thats rich! As the hamas militants shoots another rocket blindly into Israel - or the Hamas leader drinks tea in Damascus...

Why are you people such fools?

al55:

Palestinians in Gaza are under occupation go read international law. Palestinians don't have army they are all civilians. The resistance in any country is part of the people, go read about the French resistance if the Nazis bombarded a neighborhood would you say the French resistance used the people in the neighborhood as human shield, if you are sane you wouldn't, and further more you will call the Nazis bombardment as a war crime.

Insane article full of inflamatory falsehoods.
If there were no wayward bombs, there would be no civilian casualties.
This is a torturing trapped people.

To all of you geniuses out there accusing the IDF of committing war crimes, you obviously have never bothered to read the geneva conventions. If you had, you would realize that is is hamas that day in and day out violates the conventions - not the IDF.

Oh but wait, they are not signatories to the conventions so it doesn't apply to them. I see your logic now. Clever.

The writer of this article is so ignorant (Or just pro-Israel apologist).

First of all your comparison is invalid because Gaza is an occupied territory not a country and Israel is an occupation force. Anything Palestinians do is self-defense anything Israel does is a war crime.

As for the ceasefire it is Israel who broke the ceasefire on Nov 4th not the Palestinians. Former president Carter and Israel chief of internal intelligence both said Hamas is willing to renew the truce on Dec 21. Israel does not want a truce.

The war on Iraq was based on lies, and the war on Gaza is based on lies too, and writers like Carlos are supporting such wars. Shame on you.

Oustanding article. Israel is doing the world a great service. If the Hamas cowards did not hide behind women and children, there would be no civilian casualties.

My mother is Jewish, my father not. Hard drinking, swearing US military decorated vet, laborer/builder. Not a genius.
Mom had the brains. She is pro-Israel.
She is wrong - Israel has stepped over the line again.
Israel should not take ONE STEP without UN support from here on. The US is now too far in debt to keep paying Israeli welfare.
I am apalled at the disregard and incompetence.

The word "Semitic" refers to the language spoken in the Middle East region, including Arabic, therefore any accusations of Arabs being anti-Semitic is as ludicrous as it is inaccurate, so let this be the end to the anti-Semitic accusations once and for all.

This Zionist propagandist and failed journalist, who claims to have been a professor in his previous life, has recently received messages and media packages from the Israeli foreign ministry instructing him to come to the rescue of other failed hasbara brigade cyber insurgents planted everywhere in Europe and America. This article originated from the Israeli ministry of information.

The role of the hasbara brigade is to gain positive sentiments from American readers through media manipulation and propaganda efforts designed to brainwash ordinary Americans who, thanks to the internet and overseas TV channels, now have first-hand knowledge of what’s going on in Gaza and of the outrageous crimes Israel is committing there in breach of international law and the articles of the Geneva conventions.

Israel knows that it cannot buy every American’s silence with money, since most of the $ 3 billion it receives every year from the USA government is spent on the weapons it murders Palestinian women and children with, but Israel will do anything to recruit the likes of Carlos Alberto to manipulate American public opinion which is beginning to shift. The email that the Israeli foreign ministry sent out recently to its cyber insurgents, of whom Carlos is one, speaks volumes for the kind of dirty tactics Israel deploys – see below:

Dear friend,
We hold the [sic] military supremacy, yet fail the battle over the international media. We need to buy time for the IDF to succeed, and the least we can do is spare some (additional) minutes on the net. MFA are concerned with public opinion. So please identify yourself as a local resident and focus your efforts on internet battle-grounds and use the material attached below.
World governments are still patient with Israel's justified operation in Gaza. The [sic] public opinion, on the other hand, is impatient, to say the least. This gap will soon close – it always does.
It is our goal to shift the public opinion, as conveyed in the internet; avoiding, or at least minimizing, sanctions by world leaders. We need to buy the IDF enough time to achieve its goals.

to Jeff41

Thank you.
Precisely put.
Inflammatory language is rampant here.
Jesus taught to favor the sick and the poor.
It is clear who is disadvantaged here if one must "take sides".
Indians are not still tossing arrows from the reservations.
But if they did, the response should be APPROPRIATE, HUMANE and PRECISE.
Not this madness.

If Israel was engaged in the 'carpet bombing' of Gaza, densely populated as it is and totally lacking in any civilian bomb shelters, don't you think there would be a lot more than 200 children among the dead? There are probably 500 or more Gazans in a single apartment building. I would imagine there would have to be several thousand such buildings throughout Gaza. An Israeli carpet bombing would have to level at least 1000 of them. A 50% casualty rate would result in roughly a quarter million killed or injured.

According to the Palestinians there are a total of about 10,000 casualties, civilian and military. That's a lot of people, but certainly not evidence of Israeli 'carpet bombing'.

"gleeful count of Palestinian dead"

being inebriated in front of the computer does not excuse luck of basic intelligence.

I would just like to make a couple of points here...

With all the death and destruction in Gaza, has anyone stopped to wonder why, even though they built miles of tunnels and bunkers for use against a probable Israeli attack, they did not build a single shelter for Gazan civilians? The failure of Hamas to afford any kind of shelter from attack to its population is in itself a war craime.

To all those who rail against Israel's blockade of Gaza - until the advent of the most recent intifada in 2000, literally tens of thousands of Gazans worked in Israel, goods flowed freely between the two, Gaza had its own international airport and there was talk of building a major seaport, as well as hotels and resorts to take advantage of the beautiful beaches there. Indeed, many PLO leaders had villas overlooking the Mediterranean. It was violence initiated by Arabs against Israel that caused Gaza to be cut off from Israel.

The sanctions imposed by Israel 18 months ago (bear in mind that it was not a total economic cutoff) were the result of Hamas' refusal to accept minimal Israeli conditions - e.g., acceptance of Israel's right to exist and observance of previous PA - Israel agreements.

Israel is no longer Gaza's 'occupying power' and as such does not have any responsiblity under international law to care for Gaza's citizens. Moreover, when faced with attacks on its own population, it has a higher obligation to protect that population. According to some of you, Israel should have waited until Hamas had the ability to fire larger and more powerful rockets with a greater range, so that they could cause a greater number of casulaties. This in turn would have given Israel more leeeway in the proportionality of force it could have used. Then again, you still would have shed your crocodile tears about the plight of the poor Palestinians. Most of yuo care as little (or less) about them as you do about Israeli Jews.

Finally, while we're on the subject of Palestinians and Jews, let's talk a bit about those who have questioned how an Arab (a Semite) could be anti-Semitic. The origination of the term 'anti-Semite' has its roots in the hostility toward Jews (it was coined by a 19th century Austrian politician). It has nothing at all to do with Arabs. As such, Arabs can indeed be anti-Semitic. Playing semantic games with the word 'Semite' only tells me that those engaging in such behavior are themselves anti-Semites, or if you like, Jew haters.

edbyronadams Author Profile Page:

With less than a thousand dead after 17 days of total military domination, the goal could hardly be genocide. Give it a rest.
__________________________

Sure I wish you and your zionist murder loving friends were part of the 'less than a thousand dead'. That would have been fine with me.

But I'm sure your safe fat a** is sitting in a nice New York suburb playing video games.

When's the last time you had a chat with your holocaust surviving grandmother? I'm sure she would love to hear about your gleeful count of Palestinian dead.

This nut case Carlos needs to go back to writing in Spanish where only the poor Spaniards will be subjected to his vitriol.

I'm sure he is a big supporter of what his ancestors did to the native South Americans.

Perhaps he can lobby the Spanish govt to move the fake state of Israel to Spain and bring some peace to the Palestinians.

This is a poorly written and one-sided commentary.

Terms such as "anti-Semitic stench", "Hamas terrorists", "fanatical gang", and "drunk with violence" do not suggest that the author approached the subject with any objectivity.

The Israeli blockade of Gaza is never mentioned. The issue of "proportionality" is misconstrued. And it is certainly not clear that Hamas is responsible for breaking the ceasefire in the first place.

Or this one - "I know of no other nation that announces where and when it will drop its bombs, thus enabling civilians to evacuate the territory." Well, that's great, but how many other nations are currently involved in bombing campaigns against civilian areas? Not so many.

Enough already, Israel is defying the U N, and committing war crimes. Even the Pope has come to comparing Gaza to a Ghetto. It is now time for all people of good conscience to begin Boycotting the State of Israel, just as was done to South Africa. Since Israel imports most of it's goods from other countries a Boycott would stand a good chance of working. With the word wide economies in recession, people can no longer afford the Billions of Dollrs wasted on endless drivel of Israel with their talk , talk, talk, peace. Nothing but yada, yada, yada and their continued intransigence of getting nowhere,and demanding more money, for what? The time is now, lets all just do it.

I think this piece hits the nail on the head and has an important element of nuance lacking in most of what you read and see this week in the media.

I think the author really understands why watching all this fighting play out -- even while strongly supporting the defense and survival of Israel -- makes me so sad. I am sad to see Hamas love killing and the necessity to risk civilian lives to put down Hamas.

I cannot see a viable way for Israel to come out of this without using military destruction of the missiles and armaments that Hamas has prioritized getting, having and using as a main mission. All this effort on offensive armaments instead of spending their time and energy on social support.

I would like to see the real losers of this conflict, the Palestinians, emerge with an interest in their own well-being, education and health. But that will necessitate having leaders interested in that above terrorism.

Sending their own kids into suicide missions with happiness is a pathetic telltale sign of trouble for Hamas. The Palestinians should be standing up to that.

GO_CAT_GO1 makes an interesting comment. Given the rhetoric of Hamas and its supporters concerning the destruction of Israel, and the willingness to provoke Israel into killing Palestinian civilians by causing rockets to fly, relatively harmlessly, into Israel, I agree that if Hamas or Hezbollah had anywhere near the firepower the U.S. supplies to Israel, the death toll would be much higher on the Israeli side. But it's impossible to really know, because with that kind of parity, both sides might act with more restraint, and Hamas might be inclined to use the threat of real force, rather than pinpricks, to win concessions.

But so much for idle speculation. Two things are painfully obvious: the current "disproportionality" works in favor of Hamas and its allies, since they're winning the propaganda war; and non-violent resistance is the last thing on the mind of anyone in the Middle East. Is it really impossible for a Gandhi or Martin Luther King to be heard in that area?

With less than a thousand dead after 17 days of total military domination, the goal could hardly be genocide. Give it a rest.

Even under these horrible conditions, I would venture that total Gazan population has increased in the last 17 days since each woman has an average of 5.19 children.

What is now happening in Gaza is genocide.

The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Intent is different from motive. Whatever may be the motive for the crime (land expropriation, national security, territorial integrity, etc.), if the perpetrators commit acts intended to destroy a group, even part of a group, it is genocide.

The phrase "in whole or in part" is important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of only part of a group (such as its educated members, or members living in one region) is also genocide. Most authorities require intent to destroy a substantial number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be guilty of genocide even if he kills only one person, so long as he knew he was participating in a larger plan to destroy the group. *

Nobel Wole Soyinka (Reith Lectures, delivered at Oxford, “Climate of Fear: The Quest for Dignity in a Dehumanized World”):

“… the doctrine of “There are no innocents” must be strategically and morally repudiated. To do less is to surrender our self-esteem, deny ourselves all dignity, diminish our own humanity, and indeed forgo our fundamental right to existence.” **

*
http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm

**
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2004/lectures.shtml

OK, so the gas fields will be Israel's just compensation for its part in the War on Terror, including the elimination of potential future terrorists.

to ravisingh :
you view clearly reflects contemporary ignorant or idiot, you chose

proportionate, you buy me a beer I retun in kind with a glass of wine.
Disproportionate, I buy you beer you serve me with Chivas.
in conflict these two terms do not exist. there is war or peace, fire or cease fire, winners and whinners.
Liberal interpretation of proportionate is in proportionate stretch of imagination which had we follow it humanity would still be in the cave. however, still many adopt this view like talibans, sudanees other like these two. there the rule works, they either live in caves on making a progress toward reaching a cave

It's all about the gas fields off the Gaza coast. From the Israeli point of view, God didn't put that gas there for goyim.

here is a link of hamas representative. please see what achmad has to say
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Please chose one, rockets or "like Carlos"
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Wake up - they are NOT LIKE CARLOS.

They are certainly humans, and 10,000 well armed IDF soldiers managed in 15 days to kill 500 rocket throwers and 400 civilians. Is it a terrible price, yes... Mr. Olmert said it from the outset. The moment Palestinian people affirm that they are "just like Carlos" IDF will stop hostilities.

So, when is

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"we are just like Carlos"
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""

will grace our deathly Earth from the mouth of Palestinian people? Not UN, not TV, not enraged protester on the street, out of luck and out of job, but those who threw the tockets and now enjoy the show from under Shifa hospital.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Call those who speak in their defense what you want, Carlos...but Palestinians ARE human beings...maybe, just maybe...just like you.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Ok my dear fried. What you advocate is everyone is "just like Carlos" only Palestinians need to be permitted to throw rockets when they feel like it.

Please chose one, rockets or "like Carlos"

With each new paroxysm of hideous violence between Israelis and Palestinians, I become more convinced that the rest of the world will not put up with this insanity forever. At some point, supporters of each side will say, it’s just not worth it.

The arrogance and presumption of Israelis and Palestinians is that they believe they can do whatever they want and their supporters will not turn away from them. It never dawns on them that the world will get fed up with their act. Through their actions, Israelis and Palestinians show that they don’t care about the rest of the world. Why should the rest of the world care about them?

The best policy toward both Israelis and Palestinians is to stop the enabling, to throw up our hands and walk away. Then, the only options left to them will be peace -- or mutual destruction.

"Tel Aviv's critics -- from whom an anti-Semitic stench often rises --" he writes. The oft-used canard is tired and lost its potency. If the sobriquet of anti-Semitism is contorted, twisted and bastardized to signify its clamor for human rights, dignity, freedom, return of illegally stolen land for the Palestinians, then so be it...let it be called that...but decent and moral people should never be silenced by intimidation and insult. Palestinians breathe just like Jews, Palestinians have eyes just like Jews, Palestinians laugh just like Jews, Palestinians sneeze just like Jews, Palestinians make love just like Jews, Palestinians eat just like Jews...and like Jews during WW2, they do not deserve to be put in ghettos nor in concentration camps. Call those who speak in their defense what you want, Carlos...but Palestinians ARE human beings...maybe, just maybe...just like you.

What amazes me the most is the number of respones applauding this very discriminate, murder-justifying article!
It is time for the human side of every reader now to speak up and to put aside your different views of the ongoing arab-israeli conflict for a moment. Before we discuss and fight over any subject, we have to first agree on one thing: it is not justified to kill innocent lives for any reason!
Is it justifieable to KILL OVER SIXTY people including women and children EVERY DAY for SEVENTEEN continuous days now?! Is it justifiable to MURDER 277 CHILDREN while hiding fearfully in their homes with no food and water for 3 days?! Is it justifiable to bomb a mosque during the maghrib prayer and KILL 10 PEOPLE just PRAYING there?!...

Come on people, where is your conscience?!! Don't let your disagreement with any political movement blind you from seeing the terrible massacres happening in Gaza EVERY DAY with the whole world WATCHING it happen. Be effective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWsv4-_UX4g

Interesting to see people briniging up Sri Lanka. In terms of Human suffering and levels of violence, the war in Sri Lanka is vastly more important than the events going on in Gaza.

I care nothing about whether the Jewish Palestinians control Palestine or if the Muslim Palestinians control Palestione. Because it means nothing to me, I can see clearly that Sri Lanka is far more important. I am looking forward to the final defeat of the Tamil Tigers and the establishment of a peaceful society in Sri Lanka. It will make the world a better place.

Now if only the world would pay attention to the war in the Congo, which is 100 times in real terms as important than the one in Palestine.

@go_cat_go1:
sorry for the snarky start to my post. Was unnecessary and usually what I try to avoid. Besides the condescending attitude at the beginning I stand behind the rest.

An interesting point of view. Which of course inspires arguement from both sides of the conflict. Not so amazing is that most dont have a clue beyond what the media tells them.

I am pro-israel in this, Hamas declared war and committed acts of war against Israel. Even calling for its total destruction (wouldnt that constitute genocide?) Israel in my opinion has every right to defend itself including a total occupation of the Gaza Strip to gain security for their country. The elimination of Hamas should be what ends that war. Maybe then Palestinians can find peace with their neighbors.
The UN and international community have done nothing to end the attacks against Israel for years, ignoring the problem has only made it worse. Maybe the UN will step in and do what it was created for - maintain peace.

Strange that HAMAS doesnt want that to happen.
but then Hamas is a terrorist group isnt it.

Im puzzled, Why doesnt foreign aide travel thru Egypt into Gaza?

Civilian casualties are the fault of Hamas which has proven to be as beneficial to Palestine as the plague would be. Any acts of generosity on their part has been calculated to win support, the ultimate goal of the organization is not to improve Palestinian lives - its destruction.

One final point in relation to Sri Lanka.

The Indian government has sided with and is quite vocal in it's dealings with Kashmir and disputed regions. Now kashmir is a very very different situation - and my point is not a discusion of the history of the subcontinent. But simply this, Sri Lanka is not talked about much, because it has and will have limited impact outside it's border's. It's a local issue. If hindu's as a whole decided to "adopt" the Sri Lanka issue as one of it's own there would be plenty of voices.

Personally, I don't believe their is this big "world opinion" one way or the other. If there was one, I wouldn't know it. Despite the internet, I still get most of my news from "western" sources. And I am tired of hearing any dissent or discussion of the issue starting with cries of antisemitism, as in the first sentence of the second paragraph in this story.

Personally, I think the people in charge on both sides are power hungry vindictive people who use the centuries long animosity to fuel their pitiful struggle for personal power on the graves of their friends and enemies alike. But somehow nobody says I must hate muslems when I say that about Amhedenijad (not even going to learn to spell his name) or Hamas. The bias flows both ways and it's always ugly.

We pay more attention to the Israel/Arab conflict preceisely because for decades terrorism has worked. It has captured our attention.

Sad but true.

n

Excellent post from Go-cat-go which unfortunately will not change any minds, because it is rational thinking addressed to irrational people.

All the reasons listed play a part. As far as the hysterical anti-Israel protests in the West are concerned, white guilt definitely plays a big part. But to my mind, the main driving force behind the behavior of that creature called "World public opinion" is the numerical one. Unfortunately for the Tamilis in Sri-Lanka, they are not surrounded by a billion more Tamilis who could stir up a huge storm around the world. Vox Populi. We are raised to believe in democracy, which is good, and our knee-jerk reaction when wighing the opposite sides of an issue is to side with the majority, which is not good. Is it possible that 5 million people are right and a billion people are wrong? Of course it's possible, but if we know nothing else about the issue - and most people don't - we just follow the crowd like lemmings. It's so much easier.

Carlos Montaner's analysis of the Gaza situation is one of the more sensitive and sane ones that I have seen in the international press. He clarifies in very stark terms why proportionality is a ridiculous concept, and that instead the focus needs to be on where the aggression really comes from, and only then is there a chance to end this conflict

" Israel has not the slightest interest in causing casualties"

Total BS! That's like saying the suicide bombers don't want to kill civilians, just the soldiers.

You drop bombs from the air on civilian populations, you cause causualties.Period! You drop bombs on a captive civilian population (captive by Israel) and you have war crimes. period. What Israel is doing is war crimes. Period!

@go_cat_go1

As a thinking person, I have a pretty obvious answer: The geo-political importance of Sri Lanka, and the tamil terrorists there are largely viewed as only of regional importance.

There are no major resources that the world is fighting over (ie. oil) in that region. Foreign governments are not arming either side.

As a person of Tamil descent, I'm not aware of my Indian family having any real sympathy with the Sri Lankan tamils.

Oh and Sri Lanka doesn't have nukes - India is not giving them to the tamil tigers.

So let's see -
1) Nothing of any real value to the world (i know this sounds horrible, but in reality - Sri Lanka just isn't that important to the rest of the world)
2) Limited risk of violence escalating beyond the intial actors. While it's horrible for the Sri Lankan's nobody is worried about Tibet attacking India in some sort of wierd religious escalation

3) The one point, I think does play in though. Western Media doesn't really care what brown people do to other brown people. But factors one and two are probably a lot more about it.

Another silly diversion from the issue at hand.
The answer to the focus is popular and govt support.
America has a huge stake in the middle east.
Billions in foreign aid, to protect billions in resourses and to protect a democratic hope.
Hope is diminished by careless agression and wayward bombs.

It is easy for everyone to comment. Raise your hand if you live in Israel or Gaza. Those are the opinions that i will read, the rest of you are talking from your bun holes.

"Concerns of civilian deaths rise in Sri Lanka" Jan 5, 2009 - Associated Press

Has anyone noticed that while the Israelis launched their invasion of Gaza, the Sri Lankans have been engaged in a major military offensive against the Tamil Tigers. I dont really find it suprising that this gets little news coverage. But what is amazing, is the extraordinary amount of world focus on the Israelis, and specifically attention to the level of civilian casualties, by comparison. Here, you have a similar conflict with roughly similar casualties; and yet, the Sri Lankan conflict is virtually non-existant in the world media, non-existant in anguish projected, in protests, in peace initives, and above all in the level of criticism that the more powerful military and country is receiving.
Why is this? What explains the microscopic critical attention received by the Israelis, and the complete lack of interest received by the Sri Lankans? Is it because the Israelis are perceived as a white people oppressing a non-white peoples? Is it because they are Jewish? Is it because they are backed by the Americans (who are evil themselves)? Is it because there are more than 1 billion Muslims world wide whose main focus on injustice concerns the Palestinians and no other people anywhere else in the world? Is it because leftists the world over have a special place in the their hearts for Israel hating? Is it because Europeean nations now have the own large Muslim populations that have to be appeased?
Or is it simply that the Israelis are in fact worse than the Sri Lankans? or the Russians in Chechnya? or the Sudanese in Darfur? or the various warlords running rampant in the Congo? (3 million dead in 15 years) In other words, do the Israelis receive this special attention because they have killed more people and have conducted their army more brutally than any of these other places (and countless military conflicts unreferenced)? And obviously, if this the case, the Israelis must have not simply been worse but, to justify the attention, they must be unfathombly worse. I mean they must commit atrocity after atrocity with mind numbing numbers of dead and with a brutality that knows no bounds. Because thats about what it would take to rationally explain this disparate media attention.

To Israel, Hamas and Mr Bloodletting:
Insults will not win any argument nor will bombs and blood.
These things go on for centuries, from generation to generation.
It never ends with brutality, only with righteousness.

"Retarded" is any other path.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/12/mideast/israel.php?page=2
"The writer A.B. Yehoshua, who opposes Israel's occupation and promotes a Palestinian state, has spent the past two weeks trying to explain the war to foreigners. "Imagine, I tell a French reporter, that every two days a missile falls in the Champs-Élysées and only the glass windows of the shops break and five people suffer from shock," Yehoshua told a reporter at Yediot Ahronot newspaper. "What would you say? Wouldn't you be angry? Wouldn't you send missiles at Belgium if it were responsible for missiles on your grand boulevard?""

until palestenians (as they are calling themselves) will continue to hide behind 'civil population" and until they will continue to fire missiles from schools and hospitals - those schools and hospitals will be bombarded with extreme precision.

Israel is doing a remarkable job on pin-pointing the trouble spots and hitting them one after another. Enough for Israeli kids - Jews and Arabs alike - to study in the bomb shelters. Enough for people to live in constant expectation of a new missile attack.

Ahem...I applaud Israel's decision to protect it's civilians from the idiocy of Hamas...as I stated before...stop tossing rockets at Israel and you won't get your butts handed to you on a silver platter.
Once more for your retarded self...stop tossing rockets at Israel and you won't get your butts handed to you on a silver platter.

Mr "Bloodletting"s comments are an example of the insane one sided demands that prolong agression. "Do this or else..."
As long as there is this kind of thinking and speaking, the world will never know a true "civilization".
Mistakes occur and cannot be reacted to with brutality.
Power often falls into the wrong hands.
Everyone must think and act according to Gods direction.
Evil is always close.

@BillGant:

Apparently, you did not read...Once more...stop tossing rockets at Israel and you won't get your butts handed to you on a silver platter.
And Again....stop tossing rockets at Israel and you won't get your butts handed to you on a silver platter.

One more time....stop tossing rockets at Israel and you won't get your butts handed to you on a silver platter.

In the last year the Hamas rockets didn't kill more than 10 Israelis. Does that Justify killing 900 palestinians in return.

They could have easily bombed all the suspected weapon warehouses and the tunnels, and called it a night. Or they could have targeted the leaders of Hamas before they hide, thereby decapitating the organization.

This is just a stunt by Livni to win the Elections in Israel, while there is a power vacuum in the U.S, and palestinian civilians are paying the price.

The great crime in all of this is the Israeli arrogance in not asking for UN assistance or a denouncement of indiscriminate bombings.
There is no widespread support for the methods here.
2 wrongs dont make a right.
This kind of military action is barbaric.
The definition of brutality is when a stronger force goes beyond subduction.

Again...stop tossing rockets at Israel and you won't get your butts handed to you on a silver platter.

Once more...stop tossing rockets at Israel and you won't get your butts handed to you on a silver platter.

Please get this through your thick skulls...stop tossing rockets at Israel and you won't get your butts handed to you on a silver platter.

It is interesting, to say the least, to read the blog comments, news stories and political commentary on this conflict between Israel and Hamas. It seems most people equate Palestine and Hamas, when in fact the two are not the same. Palestine is a geographical region that *includes* Israel. Palestine is not a country, it does not have a government. It is an area of land much like in the US where you have The South or The North or The Midwest.

Israel is not fighting Palestine or Gaza. Israel is fighting a cowardly terrorist organization that hides itself in heavily-populated areas such as the Gaza Strip. If you are angry at the (questionable) number of "civillian" deaths, then Israel is the wrong target of your anger.

If someone told you that they hated the fact that you existed, then threatened you that they would not rest until you, your family and your friends were all dead, would you try to negotiate a peace treaty with them? Still, folks just seem to be treating Hamas terrorists as the victims here.

Thank you, Mr. Montaner, for this healthy dose of common sense.

With such precise tools at their disposal, Israel should certain use them.

The bandwagon is the refusal of Americans to question what the Israelis do. I made no mention of IDF "murdering" anyone. The point is simply that civilian casualties are dramatic and showing no signs of abating.

I will not brush off deaths of Palestinians OR Israelis as easily as everyone who unilaterally supports the IDF's offensive.

Nice to see that even within the Arab-induced hysteria now gripping Spain, some people have not lost perspective, few as they might be. One thing Mr. Montaner has not mentioned: When Israel notifies the Gazans where it is going to strike so they could evacuate (indeed the only nation in the world who has ever done that), Hamas rushes civilians to those spots to serve as human shields and provide fresh pictures for al Jazeera. Interesting little contrast here: Israel is doing its utmost to minimize the number of civilians killed on BOTH sides of the border, while Hamas is doing its utmost to maximize them, again on both sides of the border.

"ought to consider using more targeted strategies"

I am quite surprised at how well IDF does its targeting - regularly taking out invidividual cars, homes, etc., where militants are working. They obviously have excellent humint.

Try not to jump on the bandwagon and fall for hamas propaganda that IDF soldiers are murdering civilians, etc. Its probably not true.

If some experienced military tacticians have suggestions on how the IDF could accomplish goals of neutralizing militants and reducing collatoral damage, I am sure they would listen.

Feel free to post. Maybe they are watching...

My name is Dr Rand, and I am here to testify that I too have witnessed first hand countless times and over many years the incredible solicitude, compassion and care Israeli medical providers have shown even to captured would be suicide bombers!!! I am here to tell you that I have personally witnessed Israeli Doctors (which in their respective fields are among the world’s best) save the lives of countless Arab dignitaries from across the Middle East. The tragedy of the story, however, is that all Arabs know this, yet they continue to allow their media to incite violence through fabricated lies against the Israelis.

If the shoe were on the other foot... A previous commenter supposed that Montaner would say exactly the opposite if it were the Israelis who were suffering disproportionate causualties. If the shoe were on the other foot and the Israelis were suffering 900 deaths and the Palestinians 12, well.... the Israelis wouldnt be suffering 900 deaths. Or even 9000. No, they would be suffering 900,000 deaths. Any Hamas, Arab or Iranian army capable of such an overwhelming advantage wouldnt hestitate to use it without mercy. There would be no mercy shown, and there would be no distinction between civilian and military. A Muslim or Arab army would proceed with a real genocide. Of course, the whole of the Muslim world would jubiliant. It would be a day of everlasting joy. They day they eliminated all of the Jews. So the hypothetical of the shoe being on the other foot is unrealistic in the extreme. It would simply never happen.

God spared Nineveh out of his great compassion when the people turned from their agressions.
Hamas needs to restate their goals and Israel needs to harness their machines in order to gain the favor of both God and of a dusturbed world.
To discuss "disproportionality" or "the right to defend" is oversimplification and a diversion.
The river of support flows between the 2 nations and must be diverted equally.

This is braindead simple.

If someone relentlessly fires missiles and rockets at your home where your children sleep, you stop it.

You hand-wringing armchair judges, enlightened as you are, would willingly give up your child's life while you wait for "the world" to stop the rockets.

But the only thing you would end up with is a UN resolution, possibly a report also, and dead children.

You may never understand why other men protect their families, but it doesn't matter. No one is asking your permission.

This article is quite insightful, but a previous comment suggested that disproportionate is not meant in the general use of the term. Disproportionate are the tactics that Israel uses, even in light of its superior military technology.

Casualties mean something, regardless of which side of the conflict they belong. If Hamas is resorting to the cowardly maneuver of hiding amongst Palestinian civilians, I simply find it hard to believe that Israel's only recourse is to attack with disregard to the high probability of civilian casualties.

I just think that a country with Israel's military strength ought to consider using more targeted strategies to reach its objectives.

Echoing the sentiments of a previous poster, disproportionate is not that more Palestinians have died than Israelis. It's destroying an entire civilian building in the hopes of killing one or a few Hamas militants.

It's certainly easy to see why the writer is a "former" professor. He's currently nothing more than a propagandist and apologist, and the truth is not in him.

Montaner writes "Israelis are being accused of suffering too few casualties," "[w]hile...close to a [1000] Arab Palestinians have died or been wounded." This is not the primary argument of the critics. The "assymetry" we are concerned about is the political situation of the Palestinians. Hamas is not militarily occupying Israel in violation of Intl law by fencing them in and freezing their capital flow, nor does Hamas prevent humanitarian aid to Israeli citizens. I am afraid it's the other way around. Hamas' rocket fire is obviously wrong, but if we are interested in stopping it, we should pay attention to the legitimate grievances underlying those immoral acts and do something about them. If Montano brings up "anti-semitism" in response to this argument, it only reveals the weakness of his own.

I love how anyone pointing out an injustice perpetuated by a minority group that has been the victim of injustice in the past makes you some kind of racist.

Isreal might be trying, but it is clear that they are not trying hard enough. I remember hearing one of the commanders at some news conference talking about limiting the loss of life-but it was clear from the context that what he meant was limiting the loss of Isreali life. He did not once mention Palestinian life. It is almost as if he considered all Palestinians as acceptable casualties.

Frankly I believe that Israel has a right and an obligation to protect her citizens, but I find the blatant disregard for the sanctity of Palestinian civilian life shocking and outrageous.

I remember hearing one of the commanders at some news conference last week talking about limiting the loss of life. It was clear from the context that what he meant was limiting the loss of Israeli life and I remember wondering if he considered all Palestinians as acceptable casualties. From the tactics in use I feel that it is clear that the Israeli army is willing to sacrifice the lives of a hundred Palestinian civilians in order to save the life of one Israeli solder. It is one thing to have that attitude toward an opposing army, but a civilian population??!!

I do believe that the old adage "two wrongs don't make a right" applies in this situation.

"If Mexico stole most of the land in the USA and built a fence around the major cities..."

What is with these sophomoric, ignorant analogies???

Israel represents about 1% of arab territory - not 'most.' Arabs already received over 75% of the Palestine Mandate. If you add gaza and west bank to that, I think it is closer to 85%.

Do you know what that 75%+ piece of land is called? Do you? It starts with a J.

Oh and by the way, the USA is a country. Your mythical 'palestine' is not. The land was not stolen from palestine.

Until people get the basic facts straight, this debate will never progress.

There are without a doubt a plethora of Israelis who are most compassionate and wary of the policies of their government. One may recall the 400,000 strong protest against the first war in Lebanon.
This war is filled with tragic ironies. 3 hour medical and food breaks allowed by Israel followed by attacks on many of the same people who were possibly the intended recipients of the assistance.
While Hamas is reprehensible, one cannot forget the number of hapless victims including children who have died frightening deaths. The terror in Gaza is great and just as terrible as a bombing in Jerusalem. And with this the survivors may respond with even greater violence in the direction of their Israeli neighbors.

There is a real trouble here.

It seems to me that people have lived up to the point where they can agree that rockets are good way to resolve a question if one can not pay monthly bills for the car, for the home, to put it in general, for what everyone feels entitlement.

Well, Gazans do not want to be losers in the vanity fair of our lives... ok. But the next step they say, we will send 10,000 rockets unto our neighbor, just so that the neighbor does not feel too well about doing better.

They can blame Hamas for the deed, or Iran for that matter. But the cause of it was foreknown election by Palestinian people of a group, who they knew will attack on Israel without any remorse. It was not a question of "if" it was only a question of "when".

I do not want some minds who do not shy away from duplicitous trickery to seize this thought as attempt to hold entire Palestinian nation in account by means of cast lead. But had the nation of Palestine clenched its hope on peace and coexistence _they_ should find a way to express it, so it seems to me. Not the other way around, where UN and everybody in the world work day and night to find in admittedly perplexed Palestinian soul a spot of light from whence they can secure peace of mind that Palestinians can live in peace with Israel.

Here's a better analogy:
A Sioux tribe that formerly inhabited Minnesota seeks to form an independent nation in Northern Minnesota and southern Ontario. The UN votes and, over the objections of the US and Canada, agrees to give the the Northern half of Minnesota, and an adjacent strip in Southern Ontario, to the new country of Siouxvania.

Millions of Americans and Canadians living in the new Siouxvania are outraged, and flee into other
American or Canadian states/provinces.

The Americans and Canadians that remain in Siouxvania begin protesting, rioting, and finally attacking the Siouxvania government and their people. Canada invades Siouxvania from the North, America invades from the South. Siouxvania kicks both of their asess, signing peace treaties with both.

The Americans and Canadians still living in Siouxvania could have just moved to Canada or the US, but having come from a long line of Minnesotans, refuse to leave, and instead continue their attacks on Siouxvania, engaging in Guerilla warfare, blowing up government and military targets, as well as randomly blowing up civilians. Canada and the US, despite their peace treaty, continue assisting the dissidents by smuggling in weapons, guns, missiles, and explosives. Both governments also encourage its citizens to sneak into Siouxvania to commit acts of terror, destabilizing the Siouxvania government.

The two largest concentrations of American and Canadian dissident in Siouxvania live in Fargo and Duluth. These two cities then embark on decades of suicide bombings and missile attacks against Siouxvania, which then constructs walls around both cities and sets up blockades to stop the flow of weapons and missiles into Siouxvania.

The stated goal of both Fargo and Duluth is the destruction of Siouxvania, or, as they call it, 'occupied Minnesota'. They attempt to swing world opinion against Siouxvania by showing how their citizens are hurt by the blockade, ignoring the fact that the main reason they want the blockade lifted is so they can accomplish their goal of destroying Siouxvania.

At first, world opinion is with Siouxvania, since they are descendants of Native Americans who were persecuted by the evil American empire's colonists. However, after 40 years, they are able to obscuring their real motivation : their Christian faith is telling them to kill the savage godless Indians, and drive them off of Christian American soil.

The rest of the world can't believe religion could make Fargo and Duluth terrorists so deluded and fanatical and violent, and so conclude Siouxvania must have made them that way.

Eventually, the rest of the world sides with Siouxvania and calls for the destruction of Siouxvania.

@ AHEM
"Israel is NOT defending itself."
-- Yes, it is.

"It could have - by asking for UN help in disarming Hamas."

-- The UN is most incompetent in doing this. The Israelis know this.

"This is offense, not defense."

-- Sometimes, a good offensive is the best defense.

"This is a largely military action effecting a largely civilian population."

-- It can't be done elsewhere, as Hamas has no conventional army & they cache weapons & ammo among civilian facilities.

"Do not lose yourself in a discussion of war or peace.
Concentrate on the methods of engagement.
No brutal force has ever attained its goals and never will."

-- It was brutal force that stopped the advancing Nazi army into Stalingrad. It was brutal force that defeated imperial Japan in WWII. Unfortunately, it does work sometimes.

"Christianity grew in the world through love and tolerance."

-- And also through barbarous conquest, murderous crusades, forced conversions and ethnic cleansings and inquisitions.

@geosibley:

Right On!!!!!

You have nailed it as well as Carlos!

"This is Israel recreating the Warsaw Ghetto."
I like this analogy.
Rome against the Christians and David against Goliath.
Dont give me this crap about Israel/Hamas defending themselves.
Israel is not the gentle opressed nation of disposessed.
Palestine is.
When the world rises up in defense of the disadvantaged, then we have a civilized world, a truly Christian world.
There are obviously insane, raging maniacs on both sides.
When each side has earned their posessions, they will be equal and satisfied.