America can not leave Pakistan or any other muslim country alone to select their choice for the simple reason that the outcome will not be pleased by it. So it has to manipulate to produce an acceptable leader! not true democracy.

The idea that America should leave alone pakistani people and the rest of the Muslim world to elect their choice of leaders is very much logic and it is what the true dimocracy system is for. But it can not do so for the simple reason that any fair elections held in any muslim country will produce a leader who is very much against the American foreign policy. So knowing such outcome is very much certain it can not take that risk and let the democracy play its role. The result is what we have tody of muslims hate America and not say Brazil (christian country)or Swizerlan (christian and Westeren).
The choice for America is to keep its foreign policy as it is and live in the situation that it is in now or change it and see how it will be loved and respected in the muslim world by its mases if it cares.

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REBEL, REUSSERE, TOM MILLER, TED BAINES,

The draft is coming soon, and you'll have the chance to prove your patriotism and idealism, and your superbly lucid notion of 'war as a means to achieve peace'.

As an American I wish that the Pakistanis would sort this out themselves but I don't have a lot of faith that will happend and I can't agree that the U.S. should shave sat on it's hands and not attacked the Taliban, a government in Afkanistan that permitted a terrorist organization to train and plan aggression against the U.S.. I'm not even a conservative by current U.S. standards but the fact that Pakistan harbors the same criminals and permits them free license means that the U.S. would be suicidal to not have an interest in the future of this nuclear country. I believe that many Americans would have preferred to go after the psycho-path who moved to Pakistan, Ben Laden than the one in Bagdad. The Bush strategy was simply pointed in the wrong direction. By-the-way, Ben Laden and the Taliban don't represent Muslims that I know personally.

I'm no defender of the Bush administration and particularly the fiasco into Iraq but to-date I think the Bush administration has approached the situation correctly in Pakistan by demanding that the elections continue and that Musharaf step down from the military. No matter what the U.S. does even if nothing it will be critized.

I agree with the moderator that the causes of anti-Americanism in the Muslim world are historical and complex. Unfortunately, the problems America currently has in the Muslim world are equally complex. The problem America has in Pakistan are twofold, nuclear weapons, and a breeding ground for Islamic extremism that threatens us at every turn. It is unreasonable to ask America to turn its back on active, ongoing, and very serious threats to it's very existence. America simply must remain engaged at a high level in Pakistan.

To ask for a delicate and intelligent response is of course quite reasonable, except of course from this administration, whose ability to do anything intelligent is laughable.

The basic problem as far as I can tell, is that the current Islamic educational system emphasizes and nurtures these historical grievances along with systematic and blatant racism. It is like the KKK was in charge of our nations school system. Until that changes, there is little hope for peace anywhere.

Mohd. Mallick
Are u telling me there is no discrimination in Islam.What about Dhimmis , Jiziya tax etc etc.Your ancestors may have converted from Hinduism to Islam voulantarily and I have no problem with any religion you wish to follow but what about genocide of those people who did not wish to embrace Islam but had no choice when Muslims came to India. These included Buddhists as well and there is no caste system in Buddhism. Nobody supports the Hindu caste system and I myself left Hinduism because of that but the problem with Muslims and Islam is that they bring religion in every aspect , every aspect of any and every discussion and then conflict starts. They are doing the same in Europe where I live now. The issue of womens rights
, religious freedom etc is a settled question in Europe but muslims are challenging traditional assumptions of Europeans. That is why I say coexistance between Muslims and non Muslims is not possible . We should accept this fact.

Rebel,

I note your point. But don't you think that, about
your suggestion atht 'Muslims [should] leave the areas where they are a minority including ... Europe , United States, Canada', you should let the populations of these countries speak for themselves.

As for India, don't tell me that you are not aware that before the Mughals came to -- OK, conquered -- most of the land mass that now constitutes the country called India, that land mass was divided into a large number of pricnely statelets constantly warring with each other. My ancestors were most likely Hindu and, by all evidence, had all along contributed much much more to the Indian populations' material and spiritual welfare than yours. If for no other reason, the argument that makes me say that is that my ancestors, just like King Ashoka before, had been highly disapproving of the way the caste system was being used to oppress others (maybe including my ancestors, and if that is the case, I am rpoud of it, considering the progress we have made in spite of the handicaps) and that may have been the determining factor in our conversion to the egalitarian religion of Islam.

the world is going to militantism. Bashir talks logically, and analized the matter, but I see that some people are commenting badly becouse of the of the enviroment they live geting conservatism.

I have a solution to all these problems. Let the Western world leave Muslims alone and give up all interest in middle east . Let there be palestinian state in muslim majority areas of palestine , independent Kashmir , Chechniya but also let also all muslims leave the areas where they are a minority including India , Europe , United States, Canada and peace will prevail.These Muslims bring nothing but chaos and conflict with them.

To Bashir:
We are long waiting to her your words about massacre going on Mogadishu Somalia.

TED BAINES,

Stop distorting the narrative just because you refuse to understand. It will help nobody make any progress in easing the very serious problems that humanity faces.

No doubt, you must have been wrongly and totally unjustly bullied at least once in the schoolyard. No doubt you also have at least one fault.

Does the fact that you have at least one fault justify the bullying? The bullying may not be related to the fault at all.

In the case of Pakistan, let us say that GDP per capita is low, the literacy rate in English might be 30% (in Urdu 60%, say) with a good even if not enviable education system, with only one Nobel prize winner so far but legions of excellent , physicists, engineers, industrialists and above all medical doctors that help fill the gaps in American and Canadian health care accessibility to all North American. Let us acknowledge that there indeed is religious freedom in Pakistan, that the purported plagues of discrimination against women, of widespread polygamy and of ubiquitous child marriage is nothing more serious than hysterical propaganda.

Let us also acknowledge that, in 1979, after the Iranain Revolution, Russia's invasion of Afghanistan was a threat to the materil interests of the West and could be sold, with a certain amount of truth in the argument of a 'godless communist' menace to gullible and pious Pakistani societies, among whom no doubt were infiltrated a few Pakistanis every bit as venal and as duplicitous as the Western 'intelligence' agencies.

Does all this justify using large numbers of Pakistani, Taleban and AlQaeda youths as cannon-fodder in the war against godless communism? Even if, maybe,a few misguided Pakistanis might have been complicit in the endeavour?

But more to the point, let us grant than mistakes were made on all sides, as has been the case in Iraq. Is it not wiser to let those who have to live with the situation find out how best to correct a dangerous situation for all rather than to persist with a recipe that has been proved to be fatally flawed. I repeat : is it not BETTER FOR EVERYBODY'S WELFARE, that those who have the highest stakes are given the determinant say on the best appraoch to resolving the problem rather than let a party more than ten thousand miles away, be it a superpower, be the determinant factor in forcing a solution, when it has been proved that its past solutions gave proved catastrophic?

O really? Do those "prisms of economics and self-interest" include protecting ourselves from radical Islamicists - raging uncontrolled thanks to complacent "regular" muslims - that kill indiscreetly by the thousands where possible? Pakistan was the wrong country to support, what does that say about muslim self-determination? AS compared to India? What about the uncontrolled tribal portions of Pakistan that hide global terrorists and use WAHABI schools to train future jihadists? Now we know Pakistan has nuclear aspirations, if not working bombs and missiles. We were supposed to be allies, should we let our allies descend into military junta? Simply because of your misplaced "muslim pride?" Guess what man, the Pakis better get right because many Americans believe our real ally in the region should be INDIA. Your article is a perfect example of why global policymaking should not be made through a prism of "religious association." Your rebel cause of "muslim self-determination" is the same crap sold to the jihadists. Bad news . . . if self determination involves waging or condoning wars of religious intolerance, prepare to meet some resistance.

I agree with the approach in general, author is underestimating the consequences of islamists coming to power in Pakistan.

At minimum, it will lead to confrontation with India and large scale violence in Afghanistan and in the worst case, terrorism exports to the West.

You can debate whether peace with India and Afghanistan is American concern or not, but should have a plan to deal with terrorism exports from Pakistan Inc.

I certainly agree that the United States should let Pakistanis sort out their own future, but what, Bashir Goth, should the West do if sorting out that future involves genocide as it did in Somalia in the late 1990s? Or, the release of nuclear weapons to international terrorist groups as it might if Pakistan becomes a failed state? Or, the spread of guerrilla war across international boundaries as it has in northern Iraq across the Turkish border?

Pakistan and the Muslim world do not live in isolation. Are governments whose peoples' interests are harmed by the actions of Muslims obliged to do nothing just because Muslims remember the Crusades?

You can quote as many historical events as you want to justify Pakistani actions. But today, we have no choice but to interfere in Pakistani affairs as long as Pakistan produces Jihadists faster than GM can produce cars.

Also, we have the right to interfere as long as Pakistan with its nukes has the potential of being overtaken by Jihadi nutcases.

As simple as that.

Yes! Well-said and needs to be, again and again. Just as the West has its fears defined by what we have overcome, rather than what we endure and tolerate, so it is with the East. What fascism, communism, and terrorism represent to the West, for the East, its colonialism, colonialism, and colonialism. Israel is hated first and foremost for being seen as a Western colony. (Considering the Holocaust is our very bad BAD, not theirs, for Iran's prez to seek to make hash rather than hay out of it earns him the title of "Bush of the East." ALL the wrong buttons are pressed by our lording it over Iraqis, especially from their best real estate, the Republican (!) Palace, and yet we can't leave until they accept us as liberators not occupiers, the problem being....

I believe that we has humans should give all Muslims the Moon, this way they can go there and form their own "Moon Caliphate" they can fight amongst themselves and blow themselves up all they want.

Religion is all about loving and feeling for the rest of the world, if Muslim's lack of morality stems from their own self-deprecation then they need psychological help and they need to try to understand their own need to dominate. We can blow each other up now we have the knowledge and means to do that, and humanity can go the way of the dinosaurs, thats fine...but stop whinning and lets get on with it.

What the fanatical Muslim world needs to do Mr. Goth is to figure out is that God has many faces and not just Muslim.

When you politicize God and than kill innocent people in his name your asking, no actually your begging for attention from the Americans.

Until you and others like you start asking the right questions the Americans will be around for a long, long time.

President Musharrf it seems, has asked the right question, "What do I help the Pakistani people?"

This article on other the hand only serves to poise divisive and confusing questions to the Pakistani people.

My question Mr. Goth, "Whose side are you on?"

Had we used the same military tactics that the Taleban and Al Qaeda use, that have the approval of the majority of Muslims, we would have won in Iraq and Afghanistan and Iraq and peven brought Pakistan fully under control.

The Muslims do not hesitate to bomb and kill innocent civilians in the West. Our values do not allow such tactics.

Had we bombed a few mosques during prayer time when the mosques are full of Muslim men, killed about a 100 hate preaching imams, dropped bombs on Mecca and Medina and Al Aqsa, the Muslims would be licking our boots today.

It is all our fault, really.

Ff western countries had not interfered in Pakistan, Pakistan would have the highest GDP per capita, 100% literacy with the best system of education, every other Nobel prize winner would be a Pakistani, health care in Pakistan would be available to all Pakistanis, religious freedom would be supreme in Pakistan, women would be equal to men and share power, polygamy and child marriage would be non-existent, wives would not be beaten up, women would not be imprisoned if they reported rape, the Taleban and AL Qaida would not make Pakistan their home, the military would be in its barracks, life would be utopia.

Shame on the USA and UK etc for making Pakistan the most miserable country in the world. You must not blame Pakistanis for their woes.

Pakistanis are indeed the most perfect and the only perfect people that ever lived on this planet. And the more we interfere the more perfect they become.

A good reccipe for all of Americas international adventures! I can not think of any peoples on this Earth, from the aborigines of the outback to the sophistication of Paris, that are less able to do "good" actions than us Americans! Our cultural empathy is probaly less than zero; if it isn't for personal greed for wealth, safety, good feelings, or comfort; then most Americans have not got a clue or worse think that is what needs to be "fixed"

America could do itself and the world a very big good deed if it would just close its military bases, stop being the "leader" of the western world, relax, and just plain stop interferring in everybodies lives! Some individuals can do great things, but our government is hoplesss!

Mr. Goth:

If the Eithiopian occupation is near collapse why are your people fleeing for their lives before the Eithiopian Armed Forces? Your people enjoy dragging soldiers corpses through the streets but unlike the US in Somalia the Eithiopians will give you plenty of corpses to drag through the streets of Mogadishu but they are your own corpses and no one will stop it. On the contrary, we will do all we can to encourage them to play on in that vein. If the people of Pakistan are upset because of opposition to the Taliban then they should prepare for war. Furthermore Andalucia is part of Spain, not muslimlandia, so you precious muslims have absolutely no claim to ownership.

How curious Mr. Goth sees the Muslim world as one big continuous empire ruled at the top by the Arabs or possibly the Ottoman Turks (but never, never by the Persians, or the Pakistanis, or the Central Asians, the Indonesians or Malays or any of the "lesser" Muslims). They should all feel uncomfortable with the loss of the lands of the Arab empire in Andalusia, and wish to be ruled again from the mosques of the Middle East.

That crank won't even turn as far west as Iran, let alone in the Muslim world to the East and South of there. Pakistan is for the Pakistanis, if they want Americans to butt out, so be it. If they want Middle Eastern and North African Muslims to butt out, they should be ready to do the same.

KOSHUR,

Are you Roy hiding behind another name the same way Roy is hiding like a coward under his bed in order to avoid going to Iraq or Afghanistan or Pakistan to fight and make sure, as he says, that " [the world does not look] the other way ... while [Pakistan] host[s] Osama and his fanatic Islamic thugs"?

Stop being such a coward and go and serve your country at the front, like brave soldiers do.

Bashir said:

"Most Pakistanis’ hostility towards Musharraf is rooted in his support for Bush’s efforts to topple the Taliban."

You mean, it couldn't have anything to do with the fact that they're largely uneducated pious Muslims who, as the Koran instructs, devalue all non-Muslims, and Musharraf is seen as a US ally (wrongly), and Osama Bin Laden recently told them to revolt? Gee, who knew?

Mohamed MALLECK:

Your response to Roy makes no sense. Roy has made legitimate points. Your being in various places in irrelevent to them.

Roy,

So, when are YOU going to the fronts in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, NWFP of Pakistan to fight?

OK, do I hear you say "How about YOU, Malleck, when are YOU going to the front, any front?"

Let me reply to that twice.

Firstly, I am not advocating war; YOU are; so, YOU have to show that you can do waht you preach.

Secondly, I HAVE been on two very dangerous fronts to stand up for just causes -- (i) in South Africa during the apartheid transition and very dangerous years 1991-1994 (an my family --wife and small children -- even longer up to 2002); (ii) in Cote d'Ivoire where a military dictator seized power to be overthrown by a civilian barbarian megalo-maniac who turned out to be even worse than the military dictator.

Before that I had been in Uganda, during the 1984 when Milton Obote was in power having succeeded Idi Amin and having become a worse monster than Idi Amin had been.

I'm all for leaving the muzlum world to themselves and more importantly, I'm all for getting all the muzlums out of ours.

Pakistan does not have an appreciation of Americas restraint. We have not just started carpet bombing anyplace that would offer Bin Laden and his warriors succor...

During WWII, the US and the British dropped over 12,000 tons of explosives on Dresden alone. By comparison, in the battles that have taken place in Afghanistan and Iraq are models of restraint.

Maybe these people should thank god we don't hate them like they hate us.

The Chinese smashed the Pro-democracy demonstrator's in Tien Mian Square and see today it is truly an economic power house with 10% growth in econ.

Putin smashed the Pro-democracy forces and look how he has a >75% Job approval. Russia today is economically stronger than ever before.

Democracy is a ploy to exploit the non-white anglo-saxon-protestant nations. They destroy other nations with call for Democratic rules.

Now Musharraf had achieved some economic stability with Karachi Stock Exchange registering a 34% rise in its stock prices and the country achieving a
>7% growth. The West sends us Benazir Bhutto to destroy all that. Musharraf is right to fire the activist Judges who ordered the Red Mosque to be returned to the Militants.
Musharraf was off the target when he used NAB only to pursue cases against his opponents and looked the other way when some of his cronies had looted the public exchequer as well.
This is when he lost the respect of the masses.
As long as a ruler is just and honest the people will support him. The people also did not like his humilating the Chief Justice. If he was smart he could have done it nicely.
He will survive because people know both BB and NS are thieves.
But more importantly the Barbarians are knocking at our northern wall.
The Pakistan Army cannot ignore that.

My prediction:
Another target in near future will be the Emirates. : If you want to destroy Dubai (and its rulers) call for Democracy and start a riot and civil strife.

The people in the West need to understand-
Most nations are happy to live under a just ruler.
They don't care about electoral college and Western version of Democracy.

For Pakistan : the Military Academy at Kakul is the only legitamate Electoral College.
Any one of the 100 Cadets has more than 50% chance of becoming a President.
Certainly a better process than what exists in many countries where Politics is all about Money.

Yankee go home is pretty easy to say now but, sorry, you sold your souls to Bush and now you're stuck with us. Why would we now continue to not allow Iran nuclear weapons and support Muslim extremist terror but look the other way in Pakistan while you host Osama and his fanatic Islamic thugs? You want your cake and to eat it, too. Until Muslims denounce your intent to convert or kill infidels, as directed in the Koran; denounce the violence of you extremists, and denounce your intent to destroy Isreal, you simply can not be trusted.

Your analysis sir is unreasonable and out of reality.

You shouldn't be surprised if the West do not let Pakistan becoming another Afghanistan and with the atomic bomb.

The whole world order is in jeopardize by Islamist extremists and dont blame the USA or other western countries for that.

The West is always blame one way or the other when it intervene and when it refuse to intervene.

You in the Middle East countries, you have serious social problems caused mainly by religious fervor and lack of education. Give your youth the knowledge they need to improve their quality of life instead of learning about Allah.

Mr Goth I couldn't agree more, about your comment on David Ignatius piece on Washington Post, and the U.S involvement directly or indirecty in Iraq, Afganistan, Somalia, and Pakistan could be drawn similar conculustion, which is the more U.S meddle in the affairs of these countries the more instable these countries are becoming. I believe the U.S still have second chance to change course which meanse to win the haerts and minds of these people, and accept the reality on the ground.
It is important to highlight one important fact and toilor it into any U.S policy in the Muslim world, that is the mojority of the muslim populance are very suspicius of U.S intensions and case in point is the U.S involvement in Somalia. Instead of helping the Somali people to constract their state, the U.S used the criminal warloards to counter the elleged terrorists hiding in Somalia, and when this failed they turned Melle Zenawi of Ethiopia to invade Somalia, which is much worse than the warlords. This ill advised policy backfired and created more radicals in Somalia who rejects everything that is western, such as civil society, democracy, and human rights organizations as a trojan horse of the west to dominate the muslim society.

Very good article and precise analysis.America should not dictate terms on Pakistan and Gen. Musharraf.In the present circumstances Emergency looks to be the only solution in order to save the life of innocent people who are targeted by suicide bombers.The spate of suicide bombing appears to be Musharraf's crackdown on the so called terrorists who are only taking revenge of Musarraf's support to America's policy in Afghanistan.Benazir and Nawaz Shareef are the looters of nation's wealth and do not deserve any support from any corner.May Allah SWT save Pakistan from present turmoil.

In this age of "cowboy diplomacy," there is one thing that will never happen: the US staying out of the problems of the Middle East. The president and all members of the neo-con movement have too much to lose in the area of petro-chemical and oil. With the Middle East being one of the largest and most accessible areas of oil reserves, "king George," and his cronies will not take a hands off approach to anything that threatens their wealth in oil. My how times have not changed, in all the years since oil was discovered in the Middle East, the West has played "games," with the leaders of the nations that were made by Western treaties. Not one of these nations existed before the time of the discovery of the vast oil reserves that existed in this area. People co-existed in relative peace, but now cannot because of the constant interference of the likes of the neo-con movement and their dependence on the petro-dollar.
When the people of the West, and especially the citizens of the US regain control of our government and make it a priority to develop sustainable and renewable sources of energy, then and only then will the Middle East see the peace that the citizens of that region have fought for, for such a long time. The West's meddling in that region must stop and we, the people of the West must honor the sacrifices of those who have fought to control their own destinies, in the face of overwhelming and sometimes insurmountable odds. I, truly believe that this vision of friendship and cooperation can be achieved, but only through the efforts of the people, not the governments of the West. The governments of the West and those of the Far East, have only one thing in mind when speaking with the people of the Middle East, OIL!
Given the opportunity and funding through private sources, the West can and should, work through the problems of renewable and sustainable energy or there will be no world in which to fight over, as
we are doing today. Give peace a chance, become a believer in the peace we all long for and can achieve through research and planning for the future.

Best we keep out of the business of Pakistan, which will not appreciate meddling by the U.S.
This is an area of the world which has been chaotic for thousands of years, and will not be
"democratic" no matter who eagerly wants to make it that way. I feel so sorry for those that live in that cauldron, especially the children.

And do not forget the atrocities committed by Muslims in Iran towards Parsis and Bahais forcing them to seek shelter elsewhere or expulsion of Greeks from their homeland in Turkey by Turks or the destruction of the ancient buddhist gandhara civilization by these primitive arabs in modern day afghanistan and pakistan. Muslims are not only intolerant towards other religions but also towards their own people eg oppression of Shias and Ahmadis.The plight of women in their societies , forced to accept their inferior status is also quite well documented.

Anon, Victoria,

Thanks, and have a good weekend.

i agree wholeheartedly anon

Right on! I also find excellent insights in the posts of
Martin L. Buchanan and Mohamed MALLECK. While they and the author have debates among themselves, it is worth contrasting their thoughtful and knowlegable comments with virtually all of the other comments.

Read the article, and these two comentators and you will come away wiser.

These muslims have a litany of complaints against westerners but forget their misdeeds. You talk about muslim expulsion from andulusia(thank god it happened) but what about hindu expulsion by muslims from present day pakistan. They talk of crusades but forget that crusades started after muslims broke the thousand year time honored tradition to allow pilgrims of all religions to freely worship at Jerusalem.They talk of caliphate sitting from their comfortable homes in London and Newyork enjoying all the amenities of Western civilization and forget that it was Arabs themselves who revolted against the Caliphate and an Ottoman general called Attaturk who understood that for Turkey to modernize Islam must be taken out of the equation.. The reality is plain clear and obvious , Islam must be wiped out for there to be a bright future for this planet and God himself will rejoice if this satanic religion is removed from the pages of history.

These muslims have a litany of complaints against westerners but forget their misdeeds. You talk about muslim expulsion from andulusia(thank god it happened) but what about hindu expulsion by muslims from present day pakistan. They talk of crusades but forget that crusades started after muslims broke the thousand year time honored tradition to allow pilgrims of all religions to freely worship at Jerusalem.They talk of caliphate sitting from their comfortable homes in London and Newyork enjoying all the amenities of Western civilization and forget that it was Arabs themselves who revolted against the Caliphate and an Ottoman general called Attaturk who understood that for Turkey to modernize Islam must be taken out of the equation.. The reality is plain clear and obvious , Islam must be wiped out for there to be a bright future for this planet and God himself will rejoice if this satanic religion is removed from the pages of history.

At present any person or regime which comes with US blessings in Pakistan is bound to fail. Like all the muslim world, the US policies in Pakistan has won no friends. The US must also realise that its support to Mussaraf is the biggest handicap for the general at the moment and Benazir will also meet the same fate.

The Somalia and the Horn of Africa issues are major areas of concern by themselves. There we are witnessing a foreign policy blunder of major proportions, especially when measured by the humaniatiran crisis created by the U.S. sponsored invasion and occupation of Somalia by the puppet regime in Ethiopia. Condy and Jendy are the veritable bulls in the china shop.
Thanks to the two bulls Eritrea and Ethiopia are on the verge of another war. The only thing that will prevent a war is Ethiopia's minority regime's fear of defeat in the hands of Eritrea, the collapse of its military, and eventual loss of power. As for the U.S., it has used its control of the U.N. to prevent any forceful measure against Ethiopia to make it comply with the ruling of the Border Commission.
In the U.S. such act will constitute obstruction of law and would subject the perpetrator to impeachement and criminal indictment. In the new-world-disorder and law of the bush in international relations, such vile acts go unpunished.

The Somalia and the Horn of Africa issues are major areas of concern by themselves. There we are witnessing a foreign policy blunder of major proportions, especially when measured by the humaniatiran crisis created by the U.S. sponsored invasion and occupation of Somalia by the puppet regime in Ethiopia. Condy and Jendy are the veritable bulls in the china shop.
Thanks to the two bulls Eritrea and Ethiopia are on the verge of another war. The only thing that will prevent a war is Ethiopia's minority regime's fear of defeat in the hands of Eritrea, the collapse of its military, and eventual loss of power. As for the U.S., it has used its control of the U.N. to prevent any forceful measure against Ethiopia to make it comply with the ruling of the Border Commission.
In the U.S. such act will constitute obstruction of law and would subject the perpetrator to impeachement and criminal indictment. In the new-world-disorder and law of the bush in international relations, such vile acts go unpunished.

I am not sure that I agree anymore that there actually is a Muslim world. I am beginning to realize that it is as diverse, as multifaceted and as loosely bound as is the Western, so called, post-Christian world.

I am also beginning to realize that so called Muslim bloggers and "news" people are simply Muslim social fanatics with a Western education and an anti-American slant. And I am getting real tired of reading them in the Post and having them presented as experts. They are propagandists. And that is coming from a left wing Democrat. I am not a flag waver or a jingoist. But I am getting tired of being preached to by people who are one centimeter away from taking up arms against the West because of the Crusades, or the loss of the Caliphate or some other nonsensical and mythical reason.

Lets get real. Non Westerners hate the West because the West has its act together and the so called Muslim world does not. Period.

I am not sure that I agree anymore that there actually is a Muslim world. I am beginning to realize that it is as diverse, as multifaceted and as loosely bound as is the Western, so called, post-Christian world.

I am also beginning to realize that so called Muslim bloggers and "news" people are simply Muslim social fanatics with a Western education and an anti-American slant. And I am getting real tired of reading them in the Post and having them presented as experts. They are propagandists. And that is coming from a left wing Democrat. I am not a flag waver or a jingoist. But I am getting tired of being preached to by people who are one centimeter away from taking up arms against the West because of the Crusades, or the loss of the Caliphate or some other nonsensical and mythical reason.

Lets get real. Non Westerners hate the West because the West has its act together and the so called Muslim world does not. Period.

I am not sure that I agree anymore that there actually is a Muslim world. I am beginning to realize that it is as diverse, as multifaceted and as loosely bound as is the Western, so called, post-Christian world.

I am also beginning to realize that so called Muslim bloggers and "news" people are simply Muslim social fanatics with a Western education and an anti-American slant. And I am getting real tired of reading them in the Post and having them presented as experts. They are propagandists. And that is coming from a left wing Democrat. I am not a flag waver or a jingoist. But I am getting tired of being preached to by people who are one centimeter away from taking up arms against the West because of the Crusades, or the loss of the Caliphate or some other nonsensical and mythical reason.

Lets get real. Non Westerners hate the West because the West has its act together and the so called Muslim world does not. Period.

What is missed here, though, is that there is a disconnect between American people and the Ameican government. It is wrong to say Americans are conspiring against the Muslims. What American people must understand is that their governments don't represent them. It seems ironical, even unbelievable, in a country that calls itself a democratic nation. People across the world also should separate American government from the American people. Those who make decisions/policies for the American government are deeply unaware of realities across the world, and thus, they are perpetually dragging the US in bigger and bigger quagmires. They cannot comprehend outcome of their decisions, until they see those like a Dracula at midnight.

An American-induced alliance of Bhutto and Musarraf would be another grand example of how American medling in a Muslim country can lead to unimaginable diasters.

Within the last month, President Bush awarded the Congressional Metal of Honor to a US Navy Seal who knowingly sacrificed his life in Afganistan to save his 3 teammates.

The untold story, is that even though only 1 of the Navy Seals was ultimately rescued, apparently 1, who was presumed dead had only been mortally wounded. When his body was recovered, his entire face had been shot off -- a procedure reserved for mortally wounded American servicemen.

Waterboarding has absolutely nothing to do with that trademark brutality that was inflicted on that mortally wounded Navy Seal

Waterboarding has everything to do with minimizing such horrendeous brutality, by timely discovering intelligence information to minimize having to place American servicemen and women in harms way.

MAY ALL OF MY BROTHER AND SISTER VETERANS CELEBRATE THE SACRIFICES MADE BY OUR FALLEN BUT NOT FORGOTTEN VETERANS THIS 25TH CELEBRATION WEEKEND OF THE VIETNAM WAR MEMORIAL IN WASHINGTON, DC AND THRUOUT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

GOD BLESS AMERICA !!!

how do you dialog with a culture that wipes with their bare hand but thinks bacon is unclean?

SRIRAM,

Answer : NO, NO. NO! NEVER, EVER, INTERFERE.

Understood? Never -- N.E.V.E.R.

So, Taliban are good? And we should let Al Qaeda operate from Pakistan? Absurd.........!!!!

mr buchanan- how much debt is the united states in to foreign countries now?

i dont know how to frame the question to google it and end up wading through alot of stuff i dont understand.

you seem like you'd know.

I do not agree with the article by Bashir Goth. US no doubt is most powerful country today. At number of times it has helped Pakistan very well. But when it comes to Kashmir, he never puts pressure on India and favors Indian illegal occupation of Muslim Kashmir.In Palestine, US supports Israel's illegal occupation of Palestenian land.Leave us alone if you want to be not hated by muslims in general and Arabs in particular. Otherwise if Pakistan's nuclear arsenal falls in wrong hands,there will be total disaster and India & Pakistan will transform into a crucible full of human dead ash.
God help us all.

who cares. We are building a wall thats 700 miles long! That'll keep em out.

who cares. We are building a wall thats 700 miles long! That'll keep em out.

So Nato should have kept out of Kosovo and Bosnia and let innocent Muslims be killed by Croats and Serbs? Should they hvae interfered in Kuwait? Or, is it ok if Western world interferes when it suits Muslims?

I agree, and appreciate for your analysis.That is only way to get things right.Lets people of Pakistan decide their future not someone else, in that way we have true democracy. Its not only help Pakistan but also USA in term of relationship which would be based on harmony not threat. As now people start noticing that war on terror is failing apart. Because we never understand root causes, it is same like you prescribe a medicion to patient without examine him.Also USA should change their policy to put puppet in the name of democracy(like now its going to be Benazir Bhutto).

Bhutto is a crook...
She should be tried in court on charges of looting approximately $3 billion from the treasury of a poor nation.

For uis to suuport such awful leaders is a disgrace.

Cheers

I want to read more of Goth's post on washingtonpost. He hits the nail right on the spot.

Please post more and keep 'em coming.

your fan,
Nazim

There's this funny undercurrent to Mr. Goth's writing that echoes what every other Muslim writer tends to espouse: "Muslim lands have been stolen/seized/expropriated" etc by non-Muslims and that the rage of the Muslims is focused on this injustice.

Since Islam started in the 7th century and Muslims conquered many of the non-Muslim lands where does it all end?

Islam is a 'One Ring to rule them all" kind of dogma that was Catholicism 2.0 1400 years ago. Today, it has all the relevance and utility to modern life as the IBM 701 or the Vydec 'word processor have to business today.

Pakistan was to be the 'modern Islamic state' 60 years ago. But if your read Margaret Bourke-White's interview with Jinnah in 1949 http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html, you can begin to see why the whole enterprise was doomed from the get go.

Loose talk about Caliphates/Khilafat ignores the realty of modern Turkey. Attaturk realized that Islam and modernity are incompatible. Want an example?--Malaysia, which is touted as a 'progressive Islamic state", and which is supposed to send and an astronaut on a Russian space vehicle, spent months agonizing over how to pray five times a day facing Mecca given the multiple orbits during a 24-hour period. That's Islamic science for you--worrying about which direction your asstronaut's butt might be pointing in space.

Mr. Goth, we the Kuffars of this world demand you get out of our lands and stop interfering in our daily lives.

Wise analysis about American neocon's interference in Muslim lands and the terroristic deaths under the lie of "freedom" inflicted about the Muslim masses in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Its about time Americans see through the Muslim-hating, pro-Israeli politicians who want to push the US with wars with more Muslim countries on behalf of Israel.

Its awful enough that US politicians and wanna be pols, appease Israel and its backers in US, but to make the American people's blood and treasure to fight Israel's war is beyond reasonable, its treachery.

http://www.antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=11880

CENTER FOR GLOBAL STUDIES,

Let America get out of Diego Garcia!

Did I hear you bunch of unqulifiable ignoramuses say "Whah?"

Check it out, in Wikipedia or wherever you want.

Diego Garcia is a teriitory of MY country, Mauritius, that was illegally annexed by Britain and leased out to the US for maintaining military bases that are the territory on our planet that has is the densely stocked with WMD's per square kilometre than any other place on earth. there have been numerous British and international court orders requiring Rogue Country USofA to get the hell out of Diego Garcia, but there has been nobody up until now (but wait for a restless Russia or an unwilling hyperpower China to get angry) to enforce the courts' orders.

As for aid, my country does not receive aid from US -- in fact my country's not insignificant foreign exchange reserves have been losing purchasing power because of a wastepaper-basket-fated greenback.

What a laugh. Western posters continue in their void delusion that their persepctives of self absorbtion mean anything regarding the Muslim world. Yes, T. E. Lawrence had it right, but his perspective came from becoming deeply imersed in the local culture, history, and sociology. Read his book if you care to learn anything, but few will. It is only we who count so they think, but the writ of history is long and deep. The greatest debacle is coming, the bombardment of the IRI for WMD they do not have, and while in compliance with the IAEA, and turning the most pro-western population in the ME into firm jahadis. Then, from Beruit to Karachi, the uncontrollable masses will bring the West to bankruptcy, moral collapse, strategic defeat, and economic ruin. Wait and see.

What a laugh. Western posters continue in their void delusion that their persepctives of self absorbtion mean anything regarding the Muslim world. Yes, T. E. Lawrence had it right, but his perspective came from becoming deeply imersed in the local culture, history, and sociology. Read his book if you care to learn anything, but few will. It is only we who count so they think, but the writ of history is long and deep. The greatest debacle is coming, the bombardment of the IRI for WMD they do not have, and while in compliance with the IAEA, and turning the most pro-western population in the ME into firm jahadis. Then, from Beruit to Karachi, the uncontrollable masses will bring the West to bankruptcy, moral collapse, strategic defeat, and economic ruin. Wait and see.

Mr. Martin L. Buchanan,

It is YOU who are completely right, Sir; Mr. Goth is only about 85% right, as I have said above.

I have read other columns by you and I have always completely agreed with YOUR analyses (as, indeed with those of Senator ray Mac Govern and Howard Zinn), never completely with those of John Pilger, nor completely those of Tariq Ali, nor completely with those of Robert Fisk, noer even completely with those of Norman Solomon.

Yes, America has been GENERALLY a great country and has contributed a lot to humanity, but also, more often than occasionally, has blundered very badly at horrendous cost to others and sometimes at heavy cost to its own people, especially the most vulnerable ones but occasionally the affluent but honest ones, like Al Gore, John Kerry, Edwards and countless others.

I never miss an opportunity to refer readers to the admonitions, just before the invasion of Iraq, of a few Americans for whom I have enormous respect, such as Freeman Dyson's Templeton Award Lecture, Chris Hedges' Commencement address at Rutgers University, Howard Zinn's writings of that period. All explained how much the wise use of America's enormous talent pool could do to benefit, first and foremost, itself and its citizens' welfare, but also the whole world, the destitute third world, if the enormous resources would be channelled to scientific/technological research and development rather than be earmarked for the waging of a blindly vengeful war whose trigger had been a largely self-inflicted catastrophe triggered by former covert-operations allies' frustration at the neocons' delusion of a 'manifest destiny' to shape the world in the image of their warped values.

You are right that America can easily regain its greatness if it does the things you say it should. My most sincere prayers are that the new Presidency to be ushered-in during early-2009 under Hillary Clinton listens to the advice of wise men and women from America and from the broader human fraternity more carefully this time around.

Mr. Goth:

We find your arguments quite amusing. After receiving approximately 13 billion dollars in direct aid and handouts, you want Americans to leave you alone! Why did you not advise Pakistan Government against accepting those dollars? Remember, Pakistan was at the verge of total bankruptcy in 2001. It was the US dollars, and the US dollars alone that saved Pakistan.

Now, imagine, Americans pull out of Pakistan--lock stock and barrel-- no more aids, no more billion dollar bonanzas, no more F-16s and helicopter gunships? I am sure, you and every one else in Pakistan will start shouting that Americans are untrustworthy friends. You and your friends still cite the post cold war US-Pakistan "disengagement" and the great betrayal.

Or may be you are trying to say, Mr. America please keep giving us billions of dollars, but never ask us for any thing in return.

Center for Global Studies

Pakistanis want the US out of their lives, but not the BILLIONS of aid they get from US every year! What an irony!

Mr Bashir Goth, wake up and get over the decline and lost world of Islam supremacy. You and the rest of Muslims who believe so should at least stop spreading this kind of double-edged message to peasant Muslims; these kinds of khutbahs are the ones that hurt developing countries the most and keep us from liberating ourselves and move on.

I don't understand his logic. To pose his argument as a Muslims message to America is not only self-serving for Mr. Bashir Goth, but ignorance as well.

In many of these Muslim countries (including Indonesia, the biggest Muslim-majority nation with one of the longest colonial rule in its history), the leaders claim Western interventions as oppressive acts against Islam -- they use this as an easy way out cover their own inability to lead effectively or their own corruptions. None of these claims have stood the test of time or the people's power.

I am not saying America should intervene -- they shouldn't but that's another subject. But posing this issue as yet another sword against Islam is an offense to the majority of moderate Muslims, myself included.

I agree completely. The best policy for the U.S. is immediate, total, and unconditional withdrawal from its current wars and meddling: bring the troops home; provide no military aid or special foreign aid; don't meddle in the governance of other countries in the Middle East, North Africa, or Central Asia; don't be involved in the Israel/Palestine conflict in any way and stop all financial assistance to both sides in that conflict.

While the Afghan war was originally justified, the ongoing occupation of Afghanistan can't work for three reasons: (1) The #1 industry in that country is opium, which we oppose; (2) Christian troops occupying an Islamic nation; (3) Withdrawal makes sense as part of a new grand strategy of non-intervention in the region.

Whether Iran has 1 or 100 nuclear weapons is not a concern of or a significant threat to the USA which has more than 5,000 nuclear weapons.

We can save hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of U.S. troops each year with these changes.

-- Martin L. Buchanan, author of To Save America: How to Prevent Our Coming Federal Bankruptcy

I agree completely. The best policy for the U.S. is immediate, total, and unconditional withdrawal from its current wars and meddling: bring the troops home; provide no military aid or special foreign aid; don't meddle in the governance of other countries in the Middle East, North Africa, or Central Asia; don't be involved in the Israel/Palestine conflict in any way and stop all financial assistance to both sides in that conflict.

While the Afghan war was originally justified, the ongoing occupation of Afghanistan can't work for three reasons: (1) The #1 industry in that country is opium, which we oppose; (2) Christian troops occupying an Islamic nation; (3) Withdrawal makes sense as part of a new grand strategy of non-intervention in the region.

Whether Iran has 1 or 100 nuclear weapons is not a concern of or a significant threat to the USA which has more than 5,000 nuclear weapons.

We can save hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of U.S. troops each year with these changes.

-- Martin L. Buchanan, author of To Save America: How to Prevent Our Coming Federal Bankruptcy

Very true comments, Mr Ghosh. It seems the people who love to call themselves our "leaders" have never learned from past mistakes. Nor have they learned from history. History shows when a great nation goes baserk and starts to interfere with the natural order of humanity, the baserk country, it doesn't matter how great and rich, only goes down. Insanity now rules our sad and confused and fearful and hatefilled land. Does anyone think this bodes well for our country?

Not at all!!

America to Bashir Goth...muslims out of life.

I am sorry, Mr Goth, but you also get it wrong on at least two counts, as reflected in the following statements of yours :

(i) "Muslims and Arabs turn to history for explanations of western conspiracy in every situation they face."

(ii) "... even if Islamists win the upcoming elections ..".

Firstly, Muslims and Arabs have long-lasting social values (as distinct from Western individualistic and selfish/hedonistic values. It is the prism of these values that makes the colours of the rainbow they see so different from the colours of the neon-lights and fireworks/gunfire that the Westerner sees. The prism of what, mimicking the orientalists, you call 'a [wrong-headed?]perceived history of Western conspiracy' is just surrogate for the very real experiences of Western resource grab and 'unequal exchange' (in the economist's sense) that ALL (not just Muslim) former colonies have been at the receiving end of.

Secondly, whatever you call 'Islamists' will not win any elections in Pakistan. The coalition of the PPP/PML-Q will win, and neither is it the case that Musharraf is the monstrous, Marcos-like dictator you and others are making him out to be, nor is it the case that Benazir is a lifeless puppet to be manipulated by the Pentagon/CIA.

Wher you are perfectly right is that American (as distinct from the necons') short, medium and long-term interests will be best served if, having engineered a Musharraf-Benazir coalition to stabilise Pakistan and bring democracy to the country in phases, America should reduce the intensity and frequency of its interventionism not only in Pakisatn's internal affairs, but also the region's. except of course for safeguarding the interests of its oil corporations' investments in the Caspian region and ensuring that no super-power, be it Russia or China has exclusive influence on the management of the energy resources of the region.

I am sorry, Mr Goth, but you also get it wrong on at least two counts, as reflected in the following statements of yours :

(i) "Muslims and Arabs turn to history for explanations of western conspiracy in every situation they face."

(ii) "... even if Islamists win the upcoming elections ..".

Firstly, Muslims and Arabs have long-lasting social values (as distinct from Western individualistic and selfish/hedonistic values. It is the prism of these values that makes the colours of the rainbow they see so different from the colours of the neon-lights and fireworks/gunfire that the Westerner sees. The prism of what, mimicking the orientalists, you call 'a [wrong-headed?]perceived history of Western conspiracy' is just surrogate for the very real experiences of Western resource grab and 'unequal exchange' (in the economist's sense) that ALL (not just Muslim) former colonies have been at the receiving end of.

Secondly, whatever you call 'Islamists' will not win any elections in Pakistan. The coalition of the PPP/PML-Q will win, and neither is it the case that Musharraf is the monstrous, Marcos-like dictator you and others are making him out to be, nor is it the case that Benazir is a lifeless puppet to be manipulated by the Pentagon/CIA.

Wher you are perfectly right is that American (as distinct from the necons') short, medium and long-term interests will be best served if, having engineered a Musharraf-Benazir coalition to stabilise Pakistan and bring democracy to the country in phases, America should reduce the intensity and frequency of its interventionism not only in Pakisatn's internal affairs, but also the region's. except of course for safeguarding the interests of its oil corporations' investments in the Caspian region and ensuring that no super-power, be it Russia or China has exclusive influence on themanagement of the energy resources of the region.

I got news for you-The flip side headline is "America to Muslims" Get out." I have never continually read so much about a group who is so supposedly religious- yet almost none of the countries in the middle east can get along with each other and it has gone on for decades,women are treated as sub humans, killing women and children for your cause is justifiable, corruption is rampant....I could go on. Stay in your own POS deserts and stop trying to convince others that Muslims are just like anyone else. Truly an F'ed up religion.

I got news for you-The flip side headline is "America to Muslims" Get out." I have never continually read so much about a group who is so supposedly religious- yet almost none of the countries in the middle east can get along with each other and it has gone on for decades,women are treated as sub humans, killing women and children for your cause is justifiable, corruption is rampant....I could go on. Stay in your own POS deserts and stop trying to convince others that Muslims are just like anyone else. Truly an F'ed up religion.

I got news for you-The flip side headline is "America to Muslims" Get out." I have never continually read so much about a group who is so supposedly religious- yet almost none of the countries in the middle east can get along with each other and it has gone on for decades,women are treated as sub humans, killing women and children for your cause is justifiable, corruption is rampant....I could go on. Stay in your own POS deserts and stop trying to convince others that Muslims are just like anyone else. Truly an F'ed up religion.

I got news for you-The flip side headline is "America to Muslims" Get out." I have never continually read so much about a group who is so supposedly religious- yet almost none of the countries in the middle east can get along with each other and it has gone on for decades,women are treated as sub humans, killing women and children for your cause is justifiable, corruption is rampant....I could go on. Stay in your own POS deserts and stop trying to convince others that Muslims are just like anyone else. Truly an F'ed up religion.

As long as there are Muslims who think that the world rightfully belongs to them, that all non-Muslims are worthy only of Islamic subjugation, and that the non-Muslims conspire to subject the Muslims, they will bring only death and destruction into their unfortunate family-members' lives. But, if all Muslims consistently treat non-Muslims as their equals and pursue equality, education, liberty, and peace for all, they will prosper as much as any people on the earth. The choice is theirs. I hope all Muslims choose wisely and vehemently oppose their religious kin who do not.

I have difficulty in understanding Mr. Goth's logic: because Ferdinand and Isabella drove the Moors out of "Andulusia" (we call it Spain)in the 15th century Westerners are autmotically suspect when they extend assistance to Muslim countries? That would have to be the granddaddy of all conspiracy theories, and the source of more misperceptions and outright hallucinations than can ever be blamed on history.

I cannot understand why Musharraf would declare martial law and suppress those that support him against the extremists.Similiar to the Bush/Cheney cabal that attacked Iraq where there were no Al Qaeda. Prior to this many people throughout the world supported the USA, Muslims included, for going after Al Qaeda and even the Taleban. We even got help from Iran, Syria, Turkey and other Muslim countries. Puzzling, what goes through the minds of these dictatorial type leaders in the world.

Gen Mush unpopularity due to
a..he is dictator
b..illegitimate ruler
c..his anti Pak policies

The destruction of the Ottoman Caliphate or The destruction of Abbaside Caliphate and Baghdad like present Iraq is the root cause of all problems related to World Muslims as Caliphate is the only State from Morocco to Pakistan and nothing else. The day Muslims left Caliphate; Muslims left Islam as there is no Islamic Scholar who can challenge the concept of Caliphate which was implemented by early Muslims and early Muslims are source of Islamic faith along with Holy Quran and Sunna.
What was the promise to Arabs by T. E. Lawrence and why that was not kept/implemented and later debated? Present Muslim states are illegal States and its rulers are illegal rulers. Rest is here in:

http://www.universal-publishers.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1581128770

Thanks,