"So such a public declaration is certainly an affront to a monotheist society bent on adherence to revelation. "

O.k., Usama - so you're affronted. What next? Is your affront justification to commit murder?

Understand, though, that if your answer is "Yes," you will declaring yourself to be, in the eyes of civilized men and women, a barbarian.

You are offended - so are we. To us, the violence and hate with which Muslims have reacted to mere words, by rioting, burning, looting, killing, and even issuing "religious" legal decisions claiming to justify murder, are the face of evil (I was going to say "modern face of evil," but that's not true - this is a primative, tribal evil from a dark age centuries in the past).

"Hagia Sophia was used by the Byzantine empire as its government church- it was effectly a religious palace wherein the Byzantine empire was run."

The Hagia Sophia was no more a government building than the Winchester Cathederal in England, the National Cathedral in Washington, or Notre Dame in Paris - or the Golden Mosque in Karbala. None of these are government palaces or offices. Neither was the Hagia Sophia. Yes, the nation was Christian (just like Iraq is Muslim). That didn't turn cathedrals into secular institutions.

Since you wanted to go down this road - who destroyed the Golden Mosque? Not Christians, but other Muslims. Think about this - it might just tell you something about why the rest of the world is concerned about the turn into darkness that's been taken by so many Muslims.

Hagia Sophia was used by the Byzantine empire as its government church- it was effectly a religious palace wherein the Byzantine empire was run. It certainly was NOT a simple church, but a government facility. How has America treated the numerous palaces of Saddam's govt?

Bashir Goth seems NOT to accept the parameters of standards, mores, and values which authentic Islam promotes for Muslim people and the world. Rather, he seems to substitute those standards found in revelation for those promoted by secular Western nations and their international institutions.

It is intrinsic in Islam that mankind live by a CODE which is conducive to man's nature and needs and pleases God. Part of that code calls for man to contain and restrain himself, such as reframe from sex outside of marriage, reframe from slander, backbiting, and spreading lies, and reframe from blasphemying the God and the Prophet (saaw).
What Goth is promoting is NOT Islam- that authors can spread lies about anyone but pass it off as only fiction. BTW, Ana al Haqq can be translated as 'I am the Truth', or 'I am the Source of Truth'. Except God calls himself al Haqq. So such a public declaration is certainly an affront to a monotheist society bent on adherence to revelation.

"Do you support the idea to deal with apostasy from Judaism and Christianity to Islam in the same manner as it is done according to Koran?"

Reading what some Muslims have been saying on this board, I'm starting to.

"Step into US Universities and you will find corpses of careers that have been bought to an untimely early end just because they questioned Holocaust (forget denying it). The same is true in media domain also. There are men in prison in Europe for questioning Holocaust. The fact you don't see this or deny it makes you less credible."

Shaan, that's a nice rhetorical trick, but "corpses of careers" is not the same thing as real corpses. Any engineer in the U.S. is free to "question" gravity - but if he does, it's going to call his competence into question also. Historians and other academics are free to question anything they want. But if their speculations fly in the face of the evidence, it will damage their careers. And frankly, that's how things should work. We want smart people to question our presuppositions, but we also want the truth to win in the end.

As for jailing Holocaust deniers, I don't know where you're getting your information. We do jail skinheads and neo-Nazis when they break the law. Germany, as I mentioned, has some unusual restrictions due to their history (which is not surprising, though I suspect it's no longer really necessary). But you can say anything you want about the Holocaust, and the Washington Post is not going to censor you (as an aside, do you deny that the Jewish Holocaust happened?). We'll ignore you if you're ideas are foolish, but the only reason you can take part in this kind of discussion today is because it's being hosted in a nation that respects the Western traditions of free speech and liberty of conscience.

"Simply put in all lands that Muslim rule there are still old churches, synagogues, and temples."

Like the Hagia Sophia, Shaan? I'm not sure that helps your cause much.

I've given you links to specific churches recently burned by rioting Muslims. If you want more, go to Google and do a search on "riot Muslim church burn" (or "riot Muslim synogogue burn", or "riot Muslim killed" for that matter).

It's happening - not centuries ago - but right now, in our world today. Muslims in Iran, Nigeria, Palestine, Afghanistan, etc. riot, burn and kill over words.

When have you ever seen the people of one of the great Western cities - Rome, London, New York, Berlin, etc. - rioting in the streets because of what some Muslim said? Sure, Paris burned, but it was the Muslims who were rioting?

As Katakaha put it, "they think that calling for the death of someone because he wrote a nasty book is just plain crazy. They think that rioting and killing over some cartoons or about a beauty pageant (Nigeria) is nuts." It is crazy. It is nuts. It's barbaric, and it's impossible to defend.

Katakaha

We live in an imperfect world, where religion has been hijacked and marginalized. Even in US (which is the most just & tolerant country in the world), there are groups with grievances. Even in US, building a new mosque is not easy. Nonetheless one has to look at the overall picture and put things in context. One or two swallows do not make a summer.

Salman Rushdie is Islam's Voltaire.

Raza,

According to the Quran, Islam means submitting oneself wholeheartedly to God and anyone submitting to the one God is a Muslim. It is not an exclusive club whose members are those who we refer to today as Muslims. Anyone who surrenders his will to God and does righteous deeds , whether a Jew, a Christian or anyone else, is considered to be a Muslim.

You listed verse 3:85 to prove your point, but on closer examination we find a different story:

“Do they seek for other than the Religion of God?-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will [aslamu, they all submit to his will], and to Him shall they all be brought back.
-Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam)."
-If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (self surrender and submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).” (3:83-3:85)

Here are some other verses that show our diversity, God’s plan in our creation and the pluralistic nature of Islam:

“O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).”49.13

“Then We revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with God's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed different ‘Shira’a wa minhaja’ (laws and rites). Had God willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To God is your final destiny-all of you-then He will inform you of everything you had disputed." 5:48

Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 2.62

And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who are conscious of God. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (5:46-47)

Say: "O People of the Book!(Jews and Christians) you have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from your Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith. (5:68)

It is just sad that anyone takes any religion seriously. Anyone ever seen this allah or any other god? These stupid, outdated ideologies just divide us. Muhammad was not all bad but was a man of his time. If he were alive today, he would be in prison for murder and child rape. Lets not follow him or any leader or religion blindly.

A lot of people on this board talked about moslem tolerance and moderation. Very well...

Who on this board agrees that the West should treat moslems and mosques in same matter as, say, the Jews and synagogues were treated in Jerusalem, when the moslems ruled it? Do you support the idea to deal with apostasy from Judaism and Christianity to Islam in the same manner as it is done according to Koran?

Anyway, do you uwant Israel to follow the example of Saudi Arabia - and treat the moslems in the same fashion as Saudia Arabia treats the Jews and Christians? If not, explain why.

Shaan Khan: "Islam has always been very protective towards all religion..."
I'm sure you are a person of goodwill and wish that this were true. However, the Islamic world is not monolithic. Some places are less tolerant than others. I don't think that the Baha'i or Iran feel very protected. A Coptic Christian from Egypt (certainly not an Islamist country, just Islamic) told me that the government regularly denies them permission to repair their churches. Anyone care to confirm or deny? Tolerance is lacking even between Muslims. Sunni governments have long marginalized Shi'a, and their most holy shrines and pilgrimages regularly come under attack by Sunni terrorists. I know it's easy to feel defensive when you think your beliefs are under attack, but you might be interested in knowing that the vast majority of Americans have no desire to disparage Islam. They don't know enough about the tenets of the faith to disparage it. They really don't care. But they think that calling for the death of someone because he wrote a nasty book is just plain crazy. They think that rioting and killing over some cartoons or about a beauty pageant (Nigeria) is nuts. They begin to think that Muslims are crazy. By refusing to defend such craziness, Mr. Gosh becomes the best ambassador to the West that Islam could have.

Hoo-rah for Demos ! Well said !

Reza (if not then Frank Collins).

The devil can quote the Bible to suit his purpose.

Anyway this is about tolerance. I have stated my case. Simply put in all lands that Muslim rule there are still old churches, synagogues, and temples. While in Hungary / Spain etc all Mosques have been wiped out (not a trace left). So who is more tolerant ?

As they say the proof is in the pudding. You can say all the lies you want but you cannot refute the above.

Shaan Khan said:
"Islam has always been very protective towards all religion yet you make false accusations."

Who are you fooling Shaan. I encourage you to read your holy book Quran which is full of violent measures against other religions. So stop writing these lies here.

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; (Q.9:123)

I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (Q.8:12)

And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers (Q.3:85)

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) (Q.9:5)

O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; (Q.9:28)

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection (Q.9:29)

Source : http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran

V.O.T.E (((((((((( Peace-Love-Rock-n-Roll-n-Gitiap, Mitt-ROMNEY For Prez, 2008 YES! ))))))))

Satan loves Hillary, Obama, and Edwards!

M. Khan said:

I have seen these attempts one too many times by these pseudo British (or wannabe brown/black British) in the hopes to be seen as sophisticated and westernized intellectuals who can get a British or a passport to any other country.

If that is not ignorant and racist, than I certainly do not know what is. Completely ignoring the issue at hand and calling him an "Uncle Tom" pretty gets right to the heart of what a lot of people are saying here.

"The response to Rushdie and the Danish cartoon for me is no different than the response to any debate of Holocaust. I don't like either of the scenarios."

Where was the Muslim/Islamic condemnation of the Islamic cartoons (in the aftermath of the Danish cartoon matter) subjecting Jews to the same kind of inflammatory characterizations /caricatures? There was none (none that appeared publicly, anyway).

"When have you ever heard a Christian leader say that Muslims need to watch what they say ..."

Careful - John Ashcroft told AMERICANS to watch what they say ....

" ... Muslims respect all religions."

If Islam decrees death to the man or woman who gives up Islam for Christianity (or anything or nothing else) it has no respect for religion, which is a dialog between the person and his or her God.

Details:

www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L06376353.htm

www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/07/france.riots/index.html

"... a very good english novelist, journalist and critic Mr.Auberon Waugh suggest him to improve his english. "

This surely does not merit a death sentence!

Frank collins:
your ignorance is boundless and your problem is that you insist on it on by recycling the same nonesense and lies every time:why don't u tell us about your xtian GWB who bombed Iraq to the stone age-and so far murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis-as well Americans.

You seem to enjoy your infamy and ignorance by trying to look like u know Islamic literature-u sure no nothing about Islam; you will do well if u would spend your time scrutnizing your own history-you don't seem to see the big log in both your eyes:it's blocking your vision.

I have read pieces from Mr. Goth before and he seems to be someone who is willing to embrace anything (ideology, war, writings etc..) that has a western stamp on it. His use of Mansoor Hallaj to further his point is completely out of context. As for Rushdie, I don't care a bit that he is knighted by the monarchy which has been responsible for oppression, exploitation and blood letting on this earth for centuries and still is. There was a time when proud people who refused to accept any titles by "now civilized" British who were once the "oppressor, exploiters, plunderers and murderers."

I am surprised how Mr. Goth is loathing the Muslims/Islam and how he is glorifying everything British. I have seen these attempts one too many times by these pseudo British (or wannabe brown/black British) in the hopes to be seen as sophisticated and westernized intellectuals who can get a British or a passport to any other country.

Goth is a reasonable man.

It is incredible how so many posters here simply confirm Goth's observation that so many are obsessed with supposed blasphemy by an author who would not hurt a flea, yet ignore or shrug at horrific acts by people who claim to act in the name of Islam. Some might say, "Oh, but they were not true Muslims," or "The Americans should have prevented the Baghdad market bombing last week," or "Well, it must have been Israelis who blew up the Samarra shrine." Meanwhile, they find it so easy to vent rage against an author whose ideas they dislike.

Is it true or false that the HK says there can be no compulsion in faith?

Demos

Step into US Universities and you will find corpses of careers that have been bought to an untimely early end just because they questioned Holocaust (forget denying it). The same is true in media domain also. There are men in prison in Europe for questioning Holocaust. The fact you don't see this or deny it makes you less credible.

I agree that some people that question Holocaust are mere trouble makers. I agree that it is so painful a memory that it is best left unagitated. My position is that all such issues should be left alone.

Your allegations of Muslims burning down Churches and Temples are NOT true. If it were true then how come the churches in Palestine (just using an example of one country) are still standing ? Contrary to your unsubstantiated statement, you will find that in all places that Muslims ruled, old Churches, Synagogues and Temples are still there. Whereas, let us consider Hungary or Spain (using just two examples), please tell me where have the old Mosques (or Masjids) in Spain and Hungary disappeared ? Please show me one mosque that is still standing.

Islam has always been very protective towards all religion yet you make false accusations.

Seems to me that this discussion has gone WAY off topic. I tend to agree with Mr Goth. It Rushdie's knighthood is an internal matter.
Further, I didn't even catch what was so offensive about the Satanic Verses until I read it a second time (I was very young during the original controversy and don't remember it, my mother told me about it when I asked her.)

At any rate, it seems to me that the principle is the same as the one behind the Danish cartoons. If MUSLIMS cannot depict Mohammad because that's what their religion dictates, well that's fine, but it's unreasonable to expect the remainder of the world to follow YOUR faith AND their own. Non-Muslims can depict whomever they want and shouldn't have to fear reprisals of that magnatude. You want t boycott the book, fine. A death threat is another matter entirely.

Seems to me that this discussion has gone WAY off topic. I tend to agree with Mr Goth. It Rushdie's knighthood is an internal matter.
Further, I didn't even catch what was so offensive about the Satanic Verses until I read it a second time (I was very young during the original controversy and don't remember it, my mother told me about it when I asked her.)

At any rate, it seems to me that the principle is the same as the one behind the Danish cartoons. If MUSLIMS cannot depict Mohammad because that's what their religion dictates, well that's fine, but it's unreasonable to expect the remainder of the world to follow YOUR faith AND their own. Non-Muslims can depict whomever they want and shouldn't have to fear reprisals of that magnatude. You want t boycott the book, fine. A death threat is another matter entirely.

Demos

Step into US Universities and you will find corpses of careers that have been bought to an untimely early end just because they questioned Holocaust (forget denying it). The same is true in media domain also. There are men in prison in Europe for questioning Holocaust. The fact you don't see this or deny it makes you less credible.

I agree that some people that question Holocaust are mere trouble makers. I agree that it is so painful a memory that it is best left unagitated. My position is that all such issues should be left alone.

Your allegations of Muslims burning down Churches and Temples are true. If it were true then how come the churches in Palestine (just using an example of one country) are still standing ? Contrary to your unsubstantiated statement, you will find that in all places that Muslims ruled, old Churches, Synagogues and Temples are still there. Whereas, let us consider Hungary or Spain (using just two examples), please tell me where have the old Mosques (or Masjids) in Spain and Hungary disappeared ? Please show me one mosque that is still standing.

Islam has always been very protective towards all religion yet you make false accusations.

Shaan,

"The response to Rushdie and the Danish cartoon for me is no different than the response to any debate of Holocaust."

There's a huge difference - no one in Europe, the United States, or any other Western nation is rioting over the statements made by holocaust deniers. No one is burning them in effigy. No one is issuing religious "legal decisions" calling for a holocaust denier to be murdered. All of that was done by Muslims in the wake of the Danish cartoons.

"It is very hypocritical of the West to muzzle discussions on Holocaust but disallow Muslim protest over issues that are important to them."

You are not being muzzled. You can say anything you want about the Holocaust (or anything else, for that matter). If you want to deny the Holocaust (do you deny that the Holocaust occured?), no one is going to ask the Washington Post to begin censoring this blog - and the Post is certainly not going to do it. Of course, essentially no one will listen to you, but that's fine - you can say any foolish thing you want.

Similary, you can protest anything you wish. No one objects to Muslims protesting. We may disagree with them, we may think they're foolish or misguided, but we don't care if you protest.

But, Muslims don't just protest - they riot, by the thousands. Muslim rioters have burned the property of innocent people, and even killed innocent people. That is not "protest" - that's violence driven by hate. Muslim religious leaders have called for the murder of men like Rushdie. That's not "protest" - that's pure, unadultrated evil.

"You will find that regardless of the religion under attack, Muslims will always weigh in favor of showing respect to religious symbols and icons."

Then why do Muslims burn churches and synogogues? Sorry - this one won't fly.

"You will never come to the hypothetical point because Muslims respect all religions. The fact you do not see attack by Muslims of any religion is evidence of what I have stated."

This is simply false. The simplest and most obvious example is Judaism - Muslim anti-semitism is widespread and well recognized.

Demos

BTW I hope you understand that the Muslims would have protested likewise if Jesus or Mosses had been disparaged also. "The Last Temptation of Christ" did not go down well with Muslims.

Recently in Punjab India there was tension because a Sikh saint was depicted is an undesirable light. Most Muslims agreed that people should have shown respect to the Sikh sentiments.

You will find that regardless of the religion under attack, Muslims will always weigh in favor of showing respect to religious symbols and icons.

Demos

You will never come to the hypothetical point because Muslims respect all religions. The fact you do not see attack by Muslims of any religion is evidence of what I have stated.

The response to Rushdie and the Danish cartoon for me is no different than the response to any debate of Holocaust. I don't like either of the scenarios. I don't like people disparaging any religion for any reason. I don't like people killing anyone for any reason. It is very hypocritical of the West to muzzle discussions on Holocaust but disallow Muslim protest over issues that are important to them.

"On a daily basis you come here and attack Muslims and Islam via lies, distortion,and multiple IDs, yet no one has ever retorted back in kind against Hinduism. "

Shaan, your dodging is becoming comical. What's Hinduism got to do with anything? Muslims rioting in the streets has become so commonplace that it's not even news anymore, except when someone is killed or something valuable is burned (which happens far too often).

When have you seen Western Christians riot in the streets over anything said or done by a Muslim? When have you seen Western Christians burn a Muslim in effigy? After the attacks in New York? No. After the attacks in Madrid? No. After the attacks in London? No.

When have you seen a Western religious leader say that a Muslim nation should censor its own, Muslim citizens to avoid offending Christians in other nations?

When have you ever heard a Christian leader say that Muslims need to watch what they say, because Christians can only be expected to react with violence if their religion is insulted? Never. Do Muslims have any less self control? Are they any more prone to violence? Are they any quicker to justify violence as an appropriate response to mere words?

Then how do you explain the response to Rushdie, and the Danish cartoons . . .

Sorry, that should have been Genesis 49, not 29.

GJKBEAR,

you need to go back and read the episode you're talking about (the rape of Dinah)again. Before the two fathers negotiate a marriage, her hotheaded brothers jump in and take control. (These are the same brothers who fake the death of their brother Joseph and sell him into slavery - they finally grow up and mature some, but that's many years in the future.) The brothers are the ones who demand the circumcision and commit the massacre.

Their father condemns it. In fact, on his deathbed he curses the two brothers who were the ringleaders in the event (Simeon and Levi) for their anger and violence (see Genesis chapter 29). Nowhere in the Bible is the act described (by anyone other than the brothers themselves) as anything but evil.

This passage does not encourage, condone or excuse rape, violence or killing. It does, however, pretty accurately describe the evil we too often perpetrate on one another.

Remember: "Gitmo" and other facilities, is just a "Rehab Center" For extreme cases of "KoranaholicISM" , so we are winning and they are loosing. And

Brethren(s) & Sistar(s), please uphold "Secular-King & Queen" Bush's, wishes for the good of "The-Peaple" of Earth, not just America & friends.

Question: What is the Difference between a "Lame-Duck", A Elephant & a Donkey? Same Shiat! Ya Ya. And there is nothing Sunny about It! Ya Y.

Bless America & Friends.

Important News: Bin Ladin, founder of Al Quada, via muhajeen & Talibani, IS DEAD!

He died this month in an undisclosed Location by overdose of heroin or Kidney or heart failure??.

If any one knows please let US know. Thank You.

Bless America & Friends. So let's celebrate his death this 4th of July & more! Ya Ya Ya.

Hip hip Horray! < ?:+) um.

Gringo / Venkat / Frank Collins / Frank et al

Muslims are not occuping Non-Muslim lands. They are not attacking Non-Muslim's religion and sensibilities. It is the other way around. Hence your statement is very ignorant.

Take this forum. On a daily basis you come here and attack Muslims and Islam via lies, distortion,and multiple IDs, yet no one has ever retorted back in kind against Hinduism. As great and constructive as Hinduism is one can easily parse it and make all kinds of wild allegations. All religions can be parsed and made fodder for attack. What you are doing qualifies for evil. You are making a mockery of your good religion.

The actual idea behind these shenanigans is quite simple - "what's mine is mine, what's your is negotitable". So far, I have only heard the cries to respect moslem "sensibilities", while I haven't seen many calls to the moslems to respect Western sensibilities. Somehow, this does not really surprise me a lot. It's nothing more than a repeat of good old nazi and commie practices.

I suppose the first step would be to demand the immediate withdrawal of all laws against blasphemy and apostasy. Secondly, women should immediately get equal rights with men. Thirdly, people of all religions should be allowed to go to any place in Saudi Arabia, and pray at will.

This is just for starters. Any moslem takers on these sensibilities? I did not think so. Well, let me remind you that the West can also declare a fatwa on the non-believers. And this won't be a pretty sight.

Frank Collins, I have not read the Koran, but I have
read the Bible. I read where some guys came in and raped a woman. They decided to do right by them and proposed marriage to the families. The family heads said OK but the guys would have to be circumcised first. They complied and while they are recovering the family heads go in and kill all of them. Now, I am a female so, I can not begin to imagine the pain of circumcision after one is over the age of puberty but I am sure it is not a picnic so it seems to me particularly blood thirsty to kill someone after they had proven their sincerity by having this act performed upon them. The Bible has many, many cruel passages - most people just cherry pick the ones that they feel suit their purposes. But the God of the Old Testament was full of smiting and killing. So, the Koran says some of the same things. Jesus said Love thy neighbor as thyself. He did not say to only love those like you, or those who believe like you. What we sow, we reap - if you continue to only sow hate you will never find peace.

Asim;

"Goth,
With all due respect you are both an ignorant and a hypocrite trying to appease Islam bashers in the west by joining them. You are no different than your country woman Hirsi Ali the big fraud. Now days Islam bashing is popular and fashionable-so am not surprised that you jump on the wagon too. "

Asim;

With all due respect to you,you are falling in the trap of name calling and going after the messenger instead of the message.
Bashir Goth for your information is one of the most popular panalists and most objective here.
As many others observed he calls a spade a spade. It takes guts, integrity, and intelligence for one to articulate the way one sees it. It is easier to be a blind follower than having principles to defend and die for it.
Bashir is artist, author, and poet. He writes poems in his mother language, Somali, his religion language, Arabic, and the lanaguage media of instruction in most of his schooling years, English. How dare you call one you do not even know Ignorant?
As an artist and writer himself he have to defend all artists and writers.
One has to understand a persecuted, opressed, and abused writer represents all writers.
Though I see knighting Salman Rushdie as catch you game by the current UK adminstration, I took personal one calling one of the best brains that Somalia or the Islamic world has to offer Ignorant.
Asim, what qualifcations and credentials do you have to make that judgement that Bashir Goth is ignorant?
In my first year in the United States, 1981, I used to work in Convenient store in rough black neighborhood in Houston Texas. One day an African American customer asked me something. I did not understand what he was saying. I tried to ask him what he wanted. After few exchanges, the illiterate African American was more assertive or even more arrogant than me. He said to me," Do you speak English?"
I was timid those days. I did not say anything;but a Nigerian co_worker of mine jumped in and said," This guy(pointing his finger at me) speaks four languages including the one you are abusing now."
I did like that line and kept repeating over and over since then.
Asim; " Bashir Goth speaks four lanaguages including this one we are all abusing including Salman Rashdie as some commentators alluded to."
Bashir does not shy away from expressing himself the way he sees it.
It is the islamic way. We are taught in Islam to tell the truth no matter how unpopular it is.
I do take issue with those who burn whole villages and whole towns and claim they are doing for the sake of Islam though they are doing for thier myopic, narrow minded, bigoted reasons.

Demos

It is not my nature nor my desire to speak Ill of any religion. I think all religions serve a positive and constructive purpose. Neither do I deny holocaust.My position in this thread simply is that the sensitivity on Holocaust in the western hemisphere is no different than the sensitivity of a lot of Muslims towards Islamic icons and symbols. As long as we accept one we have to accept the other. As long as we don't discuss or question one we cannot show disrespect to the other also. Hence far from trying to insult anyone, I am saying one has to be respectful toward all.

"How many of us were given the choice to select their faith."

Sam, where the heck do you live? Do you feel like you've "inherited" a faith that you don't like? Then change it!

Look, anyone in Europe, the United States, Canada, Mexico, Australia, etc. is free to choose any religion they want - or none at all. To say otherwise is pure foolishness.

Sure, I may be more likely to adhere to the same religion as my parents, wife and friends - but then again, I also tend to eat the same food. I'm perfectly to try any cuisine I choose, though - and I'm equally free to adopt any religion I choose.

Let's cut to the chase - do you really believe that a novelist should not be allowed to criticize Islam? Novelists criticize Christianity all the time. Do you really think Rushdie should be facing a fatwa calling for his death? Artists who mock Christianity don't.

Millions of Muslims feel insulted. Why should we expect them to react violently, and make excuses for them when they do? Christians don't. Jews don't. Buddhists don't. What do you, personally, think is different about the Muslim community that results in the violence we see?

Zach,

you said: "This is a concept many religious fundamentalists have a hard time with and I am not singling out Muslims. . . . The fundamentalist, whether an adherent to restorationist Christianity or a Wahhabi needs the messianic or utopian myth . . . Anyone who questions that myth and its conclusions or assumptions is a threat to the false security and community the fundamentalist myth provides."

You're bending over backwards to paint conservative Christians and radical Islamists with the same brush - and it's simply incorrect. Regardless of any theological or psychological similarities, given the context of the current discussion - Rushdie and the reaction the Muslim world has had towards him - the differences are far more significant.

It's been said over and over before, but it clearly bears repeating: conservative Christians aren't rioting in the streets, they aren't burning people in effigy, and they certainly aren't issuing religious "legal decisions" that call for the murder of novelists.

We need to be clear. The problem is not that some Muslims don't like Rushdie, or feel threatened by what he writes, or are distressed because their "myths" are being challenged. The problem is that far too many see violence (actual, physical violence - not some sort of metaphorical "violent" verbal response) as an appropriate response.

I suspect that most serious Christians don't care for what Christopher Hitchens has written, and continues to write. Have you seen a "Christian fatwa" from any recognized Christian leader calling for his death? Do you honestly expect to? Of course not.

The importance of this difference to a civil society cannot be overstressed. You and I can live together in a viable, civilized, vibrant community if we simply disagree with each other. We can't, however, if I'm trying to kill you.

The main point that needs to be recognized here is that faith ,any faith and regardless of any religion,is something that we virtually inherit but never select freely.How many of us were given the choice to select their faith.Hence faith has become and inherited title that we carry with us like our names,race,citizenship etc.
Therefore, any generalized criticism of such tiltles is considered incorrect,inadequate and insulting to a large number of such title carriers.Criticizing Islam,Christianity or Judaism is like criticizing all Johns,all Americans,all jews etc.
With my full respect to Mr Rushdi,He had actually insulted 1.2 moslems worlwide.The title he was unduly granted is a shameful practice and never deserved.

Rushdie is a self avowed atheist from a Muslim family/background. Much of his work concerns the conflicts, internal, external, and societal/communal, that result from the mixing of cultures. I point that out only because Goth only hints at what should have been made explicit, when he characterized Rushdie a writer with a Muslim name. Rushdie treats religion as only one among many forces that create identity and meaning and an ambivalent one at that. This is a concept many religious fundamentalists have a hard time with and I am not singling out Muslims. To acknowledge as much is a first step in bursting the dangerous bubble that is a fundamentalist world view. The fundamentalist, whether an adherent to restorationist Christianity or a Wahhabi needs the messianic or utopian myth to provide as an anchor point for an inherently insecure relationship with the world around him or her. Anyone who questions that myth and its conclusions or assumptions is a threat to the false security and community the fundamentalist myth provides. The Muslims who fear or hate or rail against Sir Salman do so not because he actually threatens Islam, or even treats it unfairly, but because his novels confront, explicitly and implicitly, the fundamentalist's baby blanket.

Rushdie is a self avowed atheist from a Muslim family/background. Much of his work concerns the conflicts, internal, external, and societal/communal, that result from the mixing of cultures. I point that out only because Goth only hints at what should have been made explicit, when he characterized Rushdie a writer with a Muslim name. Rushdie treats religion as only one among many forces that create identity and meaning and an ambivalent one at that. This is a concept many religious fundamentalists have a hard time with and I am not singling out Muslims. To acknowledge as much is a first step in bursting the dangerous bubble that is a fundamentalist world view. The fundamentalist, whether an adherent to restorationist Christianity or a Wahhabi needs the messianic or utopian myth to provide as an anchor point for an inherently insecure relationship with the world around him or her. Anyone who questions that myth and its conclusions or assumptions is a threat to the false security and community the fundamentalist myth provides. The Muslims who fear or hate or rail against Sir Salman do so not because he actually threatens Islam, or even treats it unfairly, but because his novels confront, explicitly and implicity, the fundamentalist's baby blanket.

George Robertson,

all your analogies would be great, except for one thing: people routinely say exactly those things, and much stronger, about Christianity, Judaism, and religion in general in the West. Christopher Hitchens' book "God is Not Great" is a best seller, for goodness sake!

Wake up. In Europe and America, we routinely accept this kind of active, vigorous, aggressive challenges to our beliefs - without rioting, issuing death threats, or burning any one or any thing.

What's the difference between Western Christian culture, and the Muslim culture we see on display? Christians are reading Hitchens book, to figure out how they can answer his arguments. Muslims are saying that Rushdie should die.

Which kind of society do you want to live in (and your kids to live in)? Do you have the guts to stand up and say so?

I was moved by Mr. Goth's editorial. Certainly it is true the devotion, simplicity and daily prayer ritual of Islam is beautiful and centering. But like the Pilgrims who founded the U.S., there is an inevitable tension between tight conformity to group beliefs and individual expression. This is something of a false tension, though, because it is not the dress or the prayer rug or the imam that make Islam holy, it is the faith. Faith is best developed and connected with on reflection. I've read many hateful and spiteful comments in response to Mr. Goth's essay. The comments really aren't about Salman Rushdie, but about whether Islamic nationalism in the form of hueing to creed is a substitute for faithful expression. It is not. No matter how much you obey every imam or influential figure in Islam, you are not closer to Allah unless you take responsibility for your own reflection and faith.

"It's not polite to poke holes into the foundations of the religious beliefs of others in such a public way, and it's even less polite to honor someone who does so, in my opinion."

It may be impolite, but I don't think it merits a death sentence.

"there are many places where Holocaust cannot be discussed or questioned (including USA)."

Now, just where do you think the editorial board and the servers for this website are posted and what, pray tell, do you think you're discussing? Nobody in Washington is going to issue a Fatwa just because you deny the Holocaust. There will be no rioting in the streets. Nor will there even be a warrant for your arrest or an extradition order.

Take a deep, cleansing breath everybody. Remember that, no matter how bad things may get, we don't kill people just because they have a contrary opinion. At least, that's what my mama taught me.

If not acceptance, then at least tolerance. And if not tolerance, then anti-depressants and tranquilizers at least.

May the force be with you. And, for gawd's sake, calm down.

Shaan,

"The Rabbi (from USA) who attended the conference on Holocaust in Iran found their temples under attack."

Your comparison is not valid. Those attacks are against our laws, and our government actively pursues and prosecutes perpetrators of that kind of attack. Rather than making excuses for them, our community leaders condemn them. No one rioted in the streets to protest this rabbi's actions.

More to the point, no one is going to censor this blog because you've mentioned holocaust denial. No U.S. city will see rioting in the streets. No one is going to burn you in effigy. No one is going to issue a fatwa against you.

Based on your comments, I assume that you are Muslim. Think seriously about this for a minute. No matter what you may write on this blog today - regardless of how foolish, hateful, or blasphemous against Christianity, Judaism, Westerners or Western culture - no Westerners will riot in protest, no Western city will see you burnt in effigy, no Western religious leader will issue a fatwa calling for you to be murdered, no Muslims or Muslim businesses will be attacked, no Muslim countries will see their products boycotted, and no Western nation will call for censorship of the press to prevent you from speaking again. You, personally, are at more risk from other Muslims for saying something foolish or ill-considered than you are from any Western group.

Demos

Other than Germany there are many places where Holocaust cannot be discussed or questioned (including USA). The Rabbi (from USA) who attended the conference on Holocaust in Iran found their temples under attack.

Would the Queen of England have knighted an individual who wrote a book entitled, "The Devilish Bible"? Would there have been an outcry if women had protested fundamentalist Christianity by appearing in a documentary with Bible verses scrawled on their exposed torsos? The Western media would have had a field day, even though there would have been few if any death threats from Christians against the perpetrators. It always helps to look at things from the perspective of others instead of one's own narrow perspective. Rushdie has basically accused Mohammad of receiving his inspiration from Nestorian Christianity. That's equivalent to saying that Joseph Smith plagarized the Bible, or that St. Paul and Constantine just succumbed to heat stroke instead of divine inspiration after being exposed to all that blinding light. It's not polite to poke holes into the foundations of the religious beliefs of others in such a public way, and it's even less polite to honor someone who does so, in my opinion. Who are we to cast aspersions on beliefs which enable people to lead good and moral lives, no matter what the source? If there are criticisms, it should be against specific beliefs and practices, like speaking