It is absurd compare, as some have done in this thread, woefull and willfull persecution of minorities in 'Muhammadean' countries to the policies of the Bush administration here at home and abroad.

Any brand of democracy must include religious, economic and other social freedoms or its no more than a counterfeit and not the real thing.
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Mr Goth obviously has a particular vision of democracy which excludes Islam as a political system or force. What is always absent in yearnings for Western style societies by nonWestern people are the negatives: capitalism and secularism. Capitalism is more powerful than democracy. If democracy is supposed to empower a people, capitalism divides the people into individuals so that certain individuals win out in everything, namely the rich and powerful. Raw pure capitalism reduces human beings to products which only those with the greatest immediate benefit are valued. Those with less potential, or no immediate benefit are cast aside like old tires. Those with no foreseeable benefit are utilitized in fashions which draw the benefit out of them without their will: ie. illegal drug trade and the multibillion dollar prison industry. Western Europe is now experimenting with euthanasia of severely disabled infants with no prognosis for recovery or meaningful life. Prostitution is now legal in nearly every Western democracy (except Sweden and most of America, to name a few). Sex slavery is widespread in Eastern Europe and Israel and is growing market throughout Europe.

Democracy democracy democracy but the Western nations have succeeded in large part from their eras of colonial imperialism which developed their economies, trade, infrastructure and enabled them to dominate or specialize in certain global markets. How is Holland wealthy> Because it used to be an imperial overlord of Indonesia and several other nations, having exploited their resources and dominate their global market niche. Fine, Holland has democracy, but it was an empire and still maintains that economy superiority. Tiny Portugal? Former empire still with ties to Brazil and other colonies which it controlled.

And so forth. The Capitalist reality is imperialism is a natural stage of the ideology. Democracy is granted to the people of the homeland to empower them in their imperial venture. Democracy in Britain materialized in enrichment of the middle class as well as the elite rich via imperial capitalism (East India Company).

Mr Goth's fantasy world of democracy western style is a dreamy utopia that ignores the reality of his own Muslim, African, Asian people being on the recieving end of Western style democracy.

Mr. Goth wrote:

"followed by the landslide victory of Hamas in the first Palestinian free and fair elections."

Palestinians organized their first elections in 1996 which was monitored by Mr. Carter himself through the Carter Center and it was declared "democratic, open, fair and well organized".

It seems to me that Mr. Goth reads too much Western media which is often wrong and inaccurate about Middle Eastern affairs.

at the tempel of democracey
the mass public is siting down ,reverently listening ,every body got democratic cap on his head and every body got democrosary bead in his hand hymning the song of the songs democracey,wating for the god father to deliver the cermony and to enrich peoples soul and to put money in their pokets.from no where and all of the suden ,the god father appeared on the pulpit wearing a silky democratic garment covering him from top to toe,accompanyed by the sacred scholars of democracey and the ritualists who they faning the democratic fire at the altar.the god father is shouting ,the right of people for the people by the people,but if you dont have the money ,you would not make it to the governement,but i assure you people,democracey will die for you,democracey is the savior and salvation.for we so love the world we will take democracey out side,a young man among the mass puplic,having epileptic democratic frenzy attack,with a foam and salava around his mouth ,was shouting ,free at last ,free at last,bring all peoples to the tempel for eternal life.
uppon hearing this ,the god father,s voice came as a thunder ,yes by all means take it out side ,take it to all the states ,takeit over seas,take to iraq ,to the mid east to africa ,to south america,take it every where ,and when you finish take it to the outer space.send missions every where ,bring rebellers to the tempel for hard labor purification.and if you die ,democracey will be with you.amin

We need to understand that there are certain societies in this universe who, without a doubt, embrace democratic ideals but at the same time have allergic reaction to "Made in the U.S. brand of democracy". "Democracy is a form of government for a nation state, or for an organization in which all the citizens have an equal vote or voice in shaping policy." So I think the trends cited by the writer are telling us that our brand of democracy is not the one and only brand out there. We have been telling other societies that the more secular/liberal you are the better chance you have to implement democratic system, just like us. That is our intrepretation (our brand).

Now that the broader democratic ideals is what some societies prefered in conjuction with their relegion, culture, collective responsibilities,etc.., we should do the right thing and respect their choice. Rather than giving them the cold shoulder because they didn't buy our brand.

Scram & James notions of democracy remind me of AT&T in its hey day: You could have an color phone you wanted, as long as it was black.

Likewise with Scram, James, Bush, et.al.: You can have all the democracy you want as long as we agree with your choice.

The comment about AT&T was satire. Unfortunately Bush and company are serious. But please believe me: most of us are not like that.

Bashir,

The problem is not who won these elections, the problem is the bitter taste. It is a fundamentally American principle that each people should empower and choose their own government. It is not for us to constrain their choice in that regard. If we were to simply celebrate the outcome of the democratic process, we would gain power and credibility. Scowling at the bitter taste and complaining and/or punishing the result costs us power and credibility. Failing to respect and follow our own fundamental principles is a sure way to lose power and should be.

We have lost a great deal of power, much of it a permanent loss, as a consequence of our naïve and misguided invasion of Iraq. It is not that these characteristics were not known and debated; they were, by Gen. Scowcroft and Gen. Odoms, among others. What we have done is to demonstrate to the entire world the actual limits of our military forces, their strengths, their weaknesses, their capacity. By now it must be readily apparent to allies and enemy alike that we are incompetent to occupy any nation and pose no threat in that regard. The loss of that illusion is a substantial loss of power.

Iran, of course, has gained the largest amount of power at our expense; gaining from both our successes, the removal of Sadaam and the Taliban, and our failures, our inability to stabilize and secure Iraq or to shape the outcome.

I expect it will take the better part of a decade to put the Army and Marines back together with fresh equipment. We can only hope that in the future they will only be asked to attack and destroy targets, not to occupy territory.

The forces of reason will defeat the forces of darkness in the Muslim world. The dark horses of ignorance, intolerance and lies will eventually fail. The voices of reason will definitely defeated the forces of darkness and injustice. The Mogadishu Islamists are tribalists terrorists disguising as good Muslims. These violent radicals has no good ideas to offer. All they are doing is talking about outside forces such as Ethiopia. The International community must stop this bunch of gun-totting illiterates. Nothing good will ever come from them. There will be no chance of peace ever as far as these Mogadishu Islamist s are around. They are on the verge of plunging the whole region into a war which nobody wants. While they are engaged in a nons-stop propaganda bilitz, so far they didn't make a semblance of order in Mogadishu. It is time to recognize the peaceful Republic of Somaliland. Neither the IGAD created powerless entity, mostly made up of leftovers of the of the Siyad Barre regime, nor the violent Al-Qaeda-type Mogadishu Islamists has the ability to bring peace to Somalia. The endless, meaningless so-called mediation meetings held by the rival different IGAD tyrants will never bring any peace. Now I am hearing the city-state of DJibouti tyrant is hosting the two disparate factions. Tomororrw you will hear, Omar Bashir the Darfur butcher will be hosting the next one. The drama will continue forever. It was already going on for 16th years. Get ready for another 16 years. Stay tuned for a new episode of the never-ending fictional drama.

I've lived in Cairo since 2001 and have watched the relationship betwen the US and Muslim world deteriorate slowly for the past 5 1/2 years.

A big part of the appeal of the Muslim Brotherhood here in Egypt (and Hamas for the Palestinians) is the rampant corruption of the ruling elite. These are basically kleptocracies, where who you know and who you are related to can insulate you for all sorts of bad behavior. The Islamists are seen as more of the people and less corrupt than the ruling elites.

Another part of their appeal is that since the Iraq invasion, being associated with the US politically is radioactive. So, if you are a western-leaning government and hold fair and free elections these days, you'll probably end up on the street. The Islamicists have always been anti-western, based primarily upon US support for Israel.

We may not like it, but it is democracy in action.

The U.S. can certainly teach the Mid East a thing or two about democracy. Let's see;

1. How to hold a fair and transparent election resulting in an indisputable victor..oh no wait there, I forgot Florida in 2000.

2. How to respect the rights of individual citizens and adhere to an equitable consitution...dam...sorry...what was that wire-tapping thing again...?

3. How to run a democracy where the "church" and state operate as seperate entities...oops, sorry...gotta go chase that Christian vote.

4. How to respect the dignity and sovereignty of other nations and it's citizens...oh forgot again...free holiday to Guantanamo anyone...?

5. How to create a democracy where opportunities abound for all, regardless of race, class or gender...hmmm I hope those boys in Iraq are earning enough to enjoy those high income tax cuts when they get home.

Maybe you guys should stick to exporting something you are actually good at...though I'm not sure the world needs an additional supplier of BS right now.

The Islamists in all these countries were operating community service centers and the like, for quite some time. Realistically, they had the network to "get out the vote" with the democracy push.

What's suprising is that the State Department or Policy Makers, Republicans/Democrat didn't foresee this kind of outcome. Hell, we have a long tradition of organizing party politics at the state, precints, caucus level.

When you believe the rest of the world is full of dummies, then, this is an outcome.

The notion that we shouldn't be involved in other countries is correct. We should not be fighting in Afganastan. We should have destroyed it on September 12th. An attack, a response, and we go back to our business. We should disengage the Muslim world.

There is no problem in fair elections and the Islamists coming into power. The problem starts when they come into power and decide to eleminate their past election rivals by changing the election rules, filtering the candidates, imprisonment, assasination and introducing restrictions on freedoms and women.

Turning the democratic system into an oligarchy. And worse justifying all these in the name of Sharia and Islam.

It is absolutely true. The spread of moderate islamists' ideologies and their success in politics and governing will be the strongest blow to terrorists like Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. The US should engage moderate Islamists, like the Muslim Brotherhood, in direct dialogue because believe or not they will be in power in many Arab and Muslim countries sooner or later, whether we like it or not. It is a huge strategic mistake in our foreign policy to brand all islamists as terrorists. There is a clear and distinct differences between groups like Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood which is leading the reform and democratization efforts in the Arab and Muslim World.

Of course there is extremism and fundamentalism in the muslim world, who overthrew the democratic elected government in IRAN.... Who supported the extrmist elements in Afghanistan in 1980s .... Who continues the support of dictatorships in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Pakistan...
The west has destroyed entire palestinian nation.
In fact the muslims fundamentalists are no worse then the Fox Oriellies in USA.

Why are we involved in the affairs of other countries?

The reality is that Islam and democracy are align to each other As our bodies reject any foreign material ,the Muslim body-politic rejects democracy. Then why try to foist democracy on those unwilling countries, which will be treated as "demo "n"cracy"?. Most of the Arab countries are accustomed to dictatorships and if you impose democracy ,they will behave like fish out of water!. As long as religion holds sway , the "subjects" will become fundamentalists. And this precisely what is happening in the Middle East .Even the elections conducted in a "democratic manner" only the candidates who are religious-minded are elected but not those educated or moderates. It shows that democracy and muslims cannot live to together particularly in the Middle East. Let us not assume that Al Qaeda is silent or inactive. It is Bin Laden's cohorts who are fanning the sectarian violence , aiding and abetting covertly .Unless the US change its policy and bring back normalcy in Iraq quickly ,the Al Qaeda will have its last laugh ,seeing the plight of US and other coalition partners who have declared "war on terror ".If the American troops are withdrawn abruptly , Iraq may become a sanctuary for Al Qaeda Let the US forget its "democracy" for the time being and bring normalcy in Iraq first.

Perhaps Abukar saw a different Mogadishu han I saw in December 1992. Every clan, sub-clan, and sub-sub-clan was trying to starve everyone else in the country. If this is typical of the excellent job that is being done, I, for one, will pass on it. As for democracy being self-correcting, I am afraid that is a naive statement. Witness the many countries that have had democratic elections only to have them turn into one-man, one-vote, one-time governments.
One only has to remember that Adolf Hitler was democratically elected as Chancellor of Germany

Bush's Democracy means freedom for corporations and freedom to expand markets. If the people in the middle east want religious dictatorship hey, let'em have it. I think we should withdraw from the middle east. That includes withdrawing all aid. If Islam is so superior let them solve their own problems.

So long as these rising Islamists are truly held accountable by an electorate, everything will work out in time. Democracies are self-correcting.

More than 80 years since the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and we're still engaging this portion of the world solely for its oil. The Islamic world has given us nothing but misery for hundreds of years and what makes us think that's going to change?

Isolate them, deny all immigration and non-diplomatic travel and stop selling them the goodies that the West invents and sells and then you'll see a change that has been 700 years in waiting.

One may also argue that with the exception of the retrogressive Taliban-like Somali Islamists the region's opening up for democracy has strengthened the hand of benign Islamic forces against the apocalyptic Bin Ladian diehards.

your comments here has a bad teast. whether you like or not, the islamlist are progressive force and they are doing excellent JOB in Somalia. I think the way you always discripe the Islamist in Mogadishy are that they are you enemy. do not you see the changes they during the short period they are in power.

The Islamist have done a good job for kick out the warlord that kept Somalia in the dark ages with the support of Western and particularly USA. The western countries use man like you to spread their lies. GOD WILLING THE ISLAMIST WORLD WILL WIN AGAINST THE WEST.

Going by Scram and James logic, perhaps the Christian civilization should have been annihilated as well, when bloodthirsty monarchies, burning of alleged heretics and witches and subjugation of the non-royal masses was the norm. How many hundreds of years did it take for countries in Western Europe to evolve into their so called tolerant liberalism? How long ago did most Muslim countries break free of the shackles of colonialism?

That does not even take into account the fact that the Muslim world is trying to evolve at a time when the easy and ready availability of information provides insight into the alleged injustices that continue to be perpetrated by the West on the Muslim world in the present (easy fuel for populist and nationalistic politicians and parties), as well as independent insight into past exploitation of these regions by their former colonial masters. But I suppose such comments are indicative of the intellectual and moral malaise that is also creeping into those who proclaim themselves the "tolerant free West".

I was born in 1938 in China during the Sino-Japanese War. The Japanese said the same thing as Bush is using. We are the savior of all the poor Chinese problems. We will get rid of the Chinese corruptions, bring good economic policy, to establish the so called great far east prosperity circle. We all know what happpened. Millions of people died and accomplished nothing. The lesson is that we all use some made-up rhetoric to justify our actions. What we really want is to accomplish our own hidden agenda. Let us face the facts. US needs Iraq's oil as well as its strategical geo location. This is a poorly calculated policy. The neocon never understands the history. You may be able to defeat a country but you will never be able to win the hearts of the people. In the end the aggressors always lose.

Well, if the people speak, and the Islamists win, then we know where we stand, and we can stop pretending Islamic culture has any pretense of being rational.

Break out the cluster bombs.

There is an absurdity to the linking of how Americans perceive and define "democracy" with its perceptions by a barely educated--but strongly inculcated--Islamist culture. The world-wide Islamist masses somehow believe that it is "religiously correct" to kill anyone, regardless of age/gender, who doesn't believe in this, that, or the other interpretations of the Koran: yet they also perceive themselves as "civilized". Their inculcated ignorance is no excuse for what they do to themselves or to others--but neither was it incumbent upon George W. Bush to declare an also ill-conceived "crusade" (his ill-chosen word) against Saddam Hussein, thereby unleashing the pent-up furies of the down-trodden-but-still-tribal Iraqis who'd suffered and died during Hussein's 30-year dictatorship. My feelings go back to an earlier time of "suicide-bombings": Japanese kamikazes who killed many thousands, while believing in the righteous divinity of Emperor Hirohito. The morning of August 6, 1945, marked a 20-megaton atomic blast at Hiroshima with a U.S. call for Japan's surrender. Nagasaki's atomic blast was the end of World War II. We've now entered World War III, versus Islamofascism, and U.S. hydrogen-warheads are no longer kilotons, they're megatons; there are now multi-millions of Americans who'd like to push "the red button" now, and not wait until the Islamists have their own atomic weaponry.