Annie Wang at PostGlobal

Annie Wang

Shanghai, China

Annie Wang is a journalist, public speaker, and author who specializes women’s issue. She has published eight Chinese books and two English novels. Her English debut, Lili - A Novel of Tiananmen, (June 2001 Pantheon Books) published internationally to critical acclaims. A multi-layered novel, Lili, is a story of a "bad girl's" maturation and adventure in the Post-Mao Era leading up the Tiananmen Student Movement in 1989. Her most recent English novel, The People’s Republic of Desire (Harper Collins 2006) is a hilarious satire and an insightful portrait of China’s MTV generation, urban women, and cross-cultural relationships. It has been hailed as a cross between Sex and the City and Joy Luck Club. A child prodigy in her native China, Annie Wang studied mass communications at UC Berkeley and won the Berkeley Poetry Contest in 1996 with two poems, "Speaking to Mao Tse-tung, Tongue-in-cheek" and "A Woman from a Mountain Area". She has worked for high-tech companies in Silicon Valley, and then served in the Washington Post's Beijing bureau and the US State Department. In 2004, she returned to China and ran a fashion magazine in Shanghai. Currently, she lives with her husband and son and divides time between the U.S. and China. Close.

Annie Wang

Shanghai, China

Annie Wang is a journalist, public speaker, and author who specializes women’s issue. She has published eight Chinese books and two English novels. more »

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China's Majority Doesn't Get Dalai Lama

China's population is 97% Han Chinese. Like most, I didn't understand the struggle of the minority until I moved to America and became a minority myself. Most Chinese probably don't even consider that China has ethnic tensions; they romanticize Tibet but don't get the Dalai Lama.

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All Comments (133)

tiffany:

to tenor:

i know how you feel, i tell chinese people that i'm taiwanese/korean and they said "oh, you chinese that not real"

pssh. it's sad.

Courtney Lindsay:

This piece was very good for my study on race and ethnicity in international relations. Thank you.

To Student...: :

quote
---
In China-Tibet, it is attacked... Who knows, maybe it'll only take 500 years for Beijing to ease up and allow these people to celebrate their cultures.
---

What are you smoking? I advise you to take a plane and go visiting Tibet, you will have different opinion once you come back. It's typical for westerners to think that what they have done to America native people that China will do same as them.

Student...:

This is such an old discussion, I've grown bored trying to read all of these comments, so I've skipped down to the bottom.......

1. Somebody up near the middle of the comments mentioned that China was going to pour such and such amount of money into Tibet with only such and such amount of Tibetans inside Tibet.

Well, I'm sorry to say that the population of Tibet is 3 to 1 Chinese to Tibetan (at least, that's an old number... I'm sure it's grown). So really, it's not purely the Tibetans that Beijing is supporting with that money--it's their own expanding population.

2. To Mimi: Tsering Shakya is a great scholar on the Tibetan situation. As are Melvyn Goldstein and Dawa Norbu, if you are interested in learning more. Goldstein and Norbu both take on much of the history predating the 1950-1 invasion.

3. People have been attacking the US for European expansion in the 1500s and somehow drawing some sort of parallel universe off to the side which makes it somehow okay for the Chinese to thus destroy Tibetan culture...?? I understand indoctrination, and seeing inside your own thought bubbles... But really, if you're on this site, and you're out in the world, and you're able to hear MULTIPLE SIDES to the issue, HOW can you attack pro-Tibetan Independence people for propaganda? What's more--how can you think that this is a logical argument?

Europe took over North America, yes. Yes, they destroyed the culture of the Native Americans. Yes. Okay. I get it. But if you're living in a densely-native area, such as I am now, and you know something about the situation in Tibet, how can you parallel the situations? Native culture in the US is celebrated, and done so freely. In China-Tibet, it is attacked... Who knows, maybe it'll only take 500 years for Beijing to ease up and allow these people to celebrate their cultures.

Here's to that hope...

Tenor:

Annie Wang hit the nail. I am Tibetan living in Canada where there are many Chinese from Mainland. Whenever I meet Chinese they aks me where I am from. I tell them I am a Tibetan from Tibet, right away they tell me I am a Chinese. I don't take it as offence or anything. But it just tells me that Chinese just don't get us. Not their mistake though. That is what they learned and what they were told. Tibetans in Tibet and outside Tibet will never think themselves as Chinese. This has got nothing to do with being racist or whatever comes to your mind. That is just how Tibetans think simply because we are Tibetan. I am also bit surprised that when I tell them I am from Tibet, chinese friends seems to be in bit of shock. They are like how can you speak English? Where did you learn etc. General Chinese really do not understand Tibet at all. I see a huge gap between Tibetans and Chinese. Chinese have some sort of expectation of gratitude from Tibetans towards them. To tell you the truth, Tibetans just wanted to be left alone without ristrictions to their religion, culture, life styles etc be Chinese govenment. Of course Chinese government spends billions of yaun to build railway and what not. But it doesn't generate automatic loyalty except for few party loyals and their families who are ejoying the good life.
Bottom line is Tibetans and Chinese are far appart in understanding each other. Please don 't be defensive because thit is what I see whenever Tibetan issue comes. I did not mention anything about "independent". There are far more things to talk about before we can even discuss about Tibetan Nation.

Mimi:

I went to a lecture recently on the 13th Dalai Lama's nation building plan, by Tsering Shakya, the author of Dragon in the Land of Snows, a history of Tibet. This book was mentioned in an earlier posting. The author is regarded as the current foremost scholar of Tibetan history. Among other interesting subjects, he explained the historic lands and boundaries of Tibet and China. I learned that at one time in the mid 20th century, a conference was held to delineate the Tibetan and Chinese borders, but WWII erupted, and the plan was not signed.

I also learned that at one time, Tibetans controlled parts of what is China today. So, I guess China should give these provinces back to the Tibetans, using the same logic for China's rationalization for invading and occupying Tibet since 1950. :-)

China had been very weak for the previous 300 years until the British withdrew support for Tibet in favor of China in the first half of the 20th c.-- to avoid the spread of communism to China. The British were afraid of Communist Mongolia, so armed the Chinese, who then turned Communist and invaded Tibet not long after.

I learned also that the current Tibetan government in exile is supported by voluntary tax donations from Tibetans in exile. That is proof that Tibetans want their country back from the Chinese. Also, the taxes are a minimum of 50 dollars, pounds, or rupees or whatevers per year, depending where one lives.

The largest percentage of contributions to Tibetan Buddhist monasteries comes from Taiwan.

Namaste

Tashi:

Ms Wang,

I very much like your idea of the Dalai Lama talking to the ordinary people of China, he is an extraordinary man and is respected worldwide for his peaceful ways and inspirational speaking. He brings messages of hope.

There are of course some problems with the idea.

Firstly he would have to run counter to all the views previously expressed on Tibet by the government of the Peoples Republic of China over the last fifty-seven years. Yes! there are whole generations of people in China who have no idea that there is even an issue over Tibet. How would they receive this stranger in their midst telling them they had all got it wrong throughout their lives!?

Secondly, I believe the PRC is no longer interested in courting or talking to the Dalai Lama, they have decided to play the waiting game until he is no longer with us or can offer his opposing view to the pronouncements of the PRC and what they want the outside world to believe.

Thirdly, the PRC is very sensitive to any view on Tibet which differs from their own, it does not suit their purposes in the exploitation of Tibetan natural resources, nor their military and political control or plans for Tibet.

Any meetings attended by the Dalai Lama would be heavily stage-managed. The kind of control they would exert can readily be deduced in observing the occasions when China’s government officials visit western democracies.

Opposition to the PRC stance on Tibet is quickly dismissed and used as a threat by China to curtail talks with those democracies being visited unless the opposition is silenced, removed or controlled. China is not averse to suggesting to democracies that they see things their way if they wish to develop a productive relationship with China, this smacks of bullying and is nothing other than political interference with the democratic and sovereign rights of independent nations, what’s new there!?!?

The final thing I would like to say is this, neither the Tibetan Government in exile, nor the PRC have seen fit to seriously consult or have sought out the views of the Tibetan peoples currently living in Tibet. When the people of Tibet finally get to select the form of government they desire, then and only then will justice have been fully served, basic human rights will have been restored and a nation’s views will have been listened to and acted upon.

To Ms Wang and everyone else on this forum, I beg your forbearance with my forthright views, I realise that some of the things I have said have been inflammatory and uncomfortable for some of you. I have a strongly held and passionate desire to see Tibetan freedom and self-determination for Tibet and its peoples realised.

May peace, love, political freedom and basic human rights, belong to everyone throughout the world, those are my fervent wishes.

Bless you all

Tashi


Chuande Tu:

Ms. Annie Wang:
You are a journalist who mainly reports on China. Tibet is a subject that you will deal with again and again in the future. I suggest that you read a book and a thesis on modern Tibet that might benefit you. The book is entitled The Making of Modern Tibet, written by A. Tom Grunfeld, whose views on modern Tibet are neither pro-PRC nor the Dalai Lama. Its revised edition was published in the United State in 1996. The thesis is called “Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth” written by Michael Parenti, who views Tibet as a country occupied by the Chinese. You can find thesis on the Internet. Its online link, which one poster in this forum already noted above, is: http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html.

To Fong Fong:

quote "You may prefer to be a Borg, the rest of 1.3 billion people prefer to be Humans. So keep your fantasy to yourself"
--------
LOL Fong Fong, I was joking, noone want to be half mutant+ machine. Someone claimed that China never exist,that it was fantasy and historical invention, I just counter a ridiculous this statement by ridiculous comparasion...you have to see all my writing with a context of previous replies.

Fong Fong:

The Paradox of Humanity:

We are all born into the world as humans, and we will all die as humans. Yet during our lifetime, we like to separate us from each other with identity labels: Tibetans, Hans, Whites, Blacks, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, ... Paradoxically, these identity labels are like boxes that trap us from reaching our full potential which is to be human.

The path to enlightenment is to master the paradoxes that trap us so we can reach our full potential.


Take care,

Fong Fong

Fong Fong:

Commentator "ANONYMOUS",


You are caught in the Paradox of Humanity.

You may prefer to be a Borg, the rest of 1.3 billion people prefer to be Humans. So keep your fantasy to yourself.


Take care,

Fong Fong

Anonymous:

"We alway had a extreme long vision, Roman empire is short sighted, that's why China still exist and not roman empire."

Quote” This is complete an utter nonsense to suggest that "China still exists," and it is based upon nothing other than your own fantasy and historical invention.”

quote If China "still exists," in WHAT FORM does it exist? It is not the same government, nor the same policies, nor the same culture, nor the same values, nor the same language, nor the same territorial boundaries. Your assertion is dead wrong. “
So I ask, why do you pretend that there is this grand continuity in Chinese history, when in fact, there is none? As usual, it's because that's what the government wants you to believe
----------

Yes you’re right that I invent a historical fantasy, you can compare Chinese today as “Borg” on Star trek movie, we absorb other’s culture to further enhance ours, now we’re in contact with western world, eventually their culture (thinking, technology, way of doing things…) will be absorb and merge to create a greater and better one. Any resistance will be futile…HAHAHA. ..

Sure base on you statement is that China should split into multiple countries because there is different culture, different language…well you can make theory about the existence of China and fantasize the history surround it…better than that: write a fiction that fit your visions. This not gonna change the reality,

During history time line, China had grown stronger & stronger if you compare it to Roman empire, this latter didn’t last very long same as Mongolian empire. Sure we had periods of setback during history; China had been invaded numerous times by what we so call the “barbarians”. Most the times we won but we had lost two greats decisive wars to Mongolians and Manchurians, this allowed them to sit their throne on China but eventually peace and understanding finally unit us + other 50+ minorities as what we call Chinese now. China is not only the homeland of Han but other 56? minorities that include Tibetans.

Whether you like or not that’s the brief condense story, I’m no gonna write an encyclopedia about that. if that it’s a government propaganda according to you than fine with me, if 1 (you) out of 1.3 billion don’t believe, do the math, you will find out that’s negligible amount the mass. And if you still think that China is pure fiction, don’t wait until that we will absorb you and your culture to make as our own, any resistance will be futile….HAHAHA…man I like Borgs on Star trek

Fong Fong:

Commentator "AT YOU",

You are caught in the Paradox of Rhetoric: Empire and Civilization.

Empire - empires are built through force and they eventually crumble. Roman empire disappeared. Qin empire disappeared. British empire disappeared.

Civilization - civilization is carried on in people's mind and heart and as long as there are people, the civilization lives on. This is why Chinese civilization continues through countless dynasties and governments.

Take care,

Fong Fong

AT YOU:

"We alway had a extreme long vision, Roman empire is short sighted, that's why China still exist and not roman empire."

This is complete an utter nonsense to suggest that "China still exists," and it is based upon nothing other than your own fantasy and historical invention.

If China "still exists," in WHAT FORM does it exist? It is not the same government, nor the same policies, nor the same culture, nor the same values, nor the same language, nor the same territorial boundaries. Your assertion is dead wrong.

So I ask, why do you pretend that there is this grand continuity in Chinese history, when in fact, there is none? As usual, it's because that's what the government wants you to believe.

Fong Fong:

If you do not identify yourself as a human being first, you will be labeled as a "banana".


## T.S. Eliot: "We must not cease from exploration and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we began and to know the place for the first time."


## Tao De Ching (Chapter 33 - Self knowledge & Self mastery)

Intelligent people know others.
Enlightened people know themselves.

You can conquer others with power,
But it takes true strength to conquer yourself.

Ambitious people force their will on others,
But content people are already wealthy.

...
http://www.thetao.info/english/page33.htm

Take care,


Fong Fong


Fong Fong:

Many people are caught in the Paradox of Identity:

Identity labels such as "Tibetans", "Chinese", "Americans", "Whites", "Blacks", "Jews", "Shiites", "Sunnis" etc. are inventions that are designed to drive a wedge between humans so one group of humans can dominate another group of humans.

The path to enlightenment is to realize that your Identity is you are a Human Being and no one special . Therefore, you are equal in dignity and rights to the next Human Being who maybe in Tibet, in Beijing, or in the Whitehouse. You are entitled to your opinion and you can only speak for yourself. We are all brothers and sisters in the Human Family. Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1 says: "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

Take care,


Fong Fong

To Tashi::

quote" I would argue with you, the Tibetans were not slaves, ergo they could not be freed. Your agument is spurious."

see the link
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

quote"In Old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who composed the "middle-class" families of merchants, shopkeepers, and small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. A small minority were slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring were born into slavery.10 The greater part of the rural population—some 700,000 of an estimated total of 1,250,000—were serfs. Serfs and other peasants generally were little better than slaves. They went without schooling or medical care. They spent most of their time laboring for high-ranking lamas or for the secular landed aristocracy. Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. And they might easily be separated from their families should their owners send them to work in a distant location.11

One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: "Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished." They "were just slaves without rights."12 Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a "liberation." He claimed that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord's men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain.13

The serfs were under a lifetime bond to work the lord's land—or the monastery's land—without pay, to repair the lord's houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand.14 They were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child, and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. There were taxes for religious festivals, for singing, dancing, drumming, and bell ringing. People were taxed for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being placed into slavery sometimes for the rest of their lives."

There still more story to tell about Tibet, I'm not bother to dig the dirty story about Tibet, let people to discover the reality of Tibet by themself, Dalai Lama once recongnize Tibet is part of China in condition that China do not interfere with his Tibet exploitation on its people. China entered Tibet and PLA had liberated these serfs and peasants that go against interest of the middle classe and Tibetan monks, that why they had cried for independant to be able to exploite our inland tibetans brothers and sisters to make them serfs again. But it's only a wet dream for Dalai Lama and his followers, China and Chinese people will not let that happen.

I will deal with you later for the rest of your reply

Tashi:

To the person who responded to Tashi.

Quote "China had free Tibetans from slavery".

I would argue with you, the Tibetans were not slaves, ergo they could not be freed. Your agument is spurious.

Quote "...except independant, Chinese gorvernment is allergic with that..."

Why???

Quote "1.3 billions opinions that is not revealed."

These opinions are not important inasmuch as these opinions do not decide PRC policy.

Quote "Tibet is part of China,"

Tibet never was and can never be a part of China, China is China, Tibet is Tibet. If China were to invade and conquer America, America would still be America though ruled by China.

Quote " Where in all this is the compassion, the understanding and tolerance of another peoples, where is the subtlety, guile and long term planning for which the Chinese race have generally been known and respected for over the centuries"

My point is that China is not compassionate, not understanding of and not tolerant of Tibetans. China is not thinking about Tibet rationally, subtly or with guile. China has blundered into Tibet then twisted every argument raised against their actions to justify its own wrongdoing.

Quote “China has some kind of a blind spot, or should that be a blind hatred of all things Tibetan, is it the fact that Tibet is something other? therefore unknown, to be feared, to be despised and treated disrespectfully
LMAO, where you try to come with...with all these questions?”

You may laugh, but abusing basic human rights is no laughing matter, Tibet was a peaceful country going about its lawful business in its own unique way before the PLA marched in. Tibetan Bhuddism is a peace loving faith – why cannot the whole country practice its faith without interference from the central Chinese government or from being called splittist. Tibetans have an inalienable right to practise their faith without let or hindrance.

Read the Geneva convention on the Declaration of Human Rights and ask yourself does the PRC subscribe and allow these Human rights or not?

http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm

I put it to you that Tibet frightens the government of the PRC and MUST be subdued by them to deal to their own hugely irrational fears.

Quote “I don't think we need to set a example because China is not perfect, only care for face saving is bad national interest policy, that only penalize and resticte the freedom of actions. And we don't need to export ours values, only unsellable values that some countries try hard to export or force other to accepted.”

The PRC DOES need to set a good example, responsibility comes commensurately with power.

Quote “I believe that China will live by book & by sword: treate Chaos with sword & peace with book, we have knowlege both, that's while China still united afer 5000 years, if we have to die by sword, so be it at least is valuable.”

Define chaos please?, I would suggest that metaphorical swords were used to subdue “chaotic” Tibet. Again, may I respectfully suggest that the PRC should try something “outside the PRC box” like using compassion and understanding rather than arms.

Quote “Provocation & bullying only invite desasters... Chinese people knew how to respect others and make others to respect us.”

I agree, they do invite disasters. I know many Chinese people who do respect both me and other people, I have no argument with the people of China, my argument is with their government.

Quote “Indeed China's sovereignty is an issue.”

Not so, China’s sovereignty is not an issue nor is it under threat in China, I repeat Tibet’s sovereignty IS the issue here.

Quote “I know nothing about that incident, but shooting is big too severe for leaving Tibet at first glande, PLA could have just captured these people..there again we're only base on superficial informations from western media, no until the true story come out. But I believe strongly that these solders didn't without a good reason or they will face prosecution even death penalty.”

I am really pleased you think shooting people leaving a country, for whatever reason, is too severe – again the declaration of Human Rights has a lot to say about these kind of issues. Please do a Google search on the incident and you will find many eyewitness accounts from international mountaineers who saw the whole event unfold in front of them, one person managed to film the incident.

quote "I ask the rhetorical question, what exactly is the PRC so afraid of??

Quote "that is vague as question, be more specific?”

Why cannot the PRC government leave Tibet to the Tibetans?

Why cannot the PRC government allow religious freedoms in Tibet?

Why is the PRC government so scared of peoples who have different opinions to them?

“Live and let live”

Human rights abuses
Repression
Domination by force

All of these things are indicative of a state that feels it is “justified” in using excessive means to counter any “perceived threat”

Quote “Note: I don't claim to be representative of the government, hence I entitle only my own opinion, there's still 1.3 billion chinese opinions regarding Tibet issue, so I hope my chinese brothers and sisters don't bash me for what I had said.”

I would remind you that those 1.3 billion opinions do not influence or inform the Central Party policy of the PRC.

If the population of China did indeed have a democratic voice then maybe things would be very different, I hope that one day this may happen, though just now the timing is not right.

I sincerely hope that your Chinese brothers and sisters would not bash you for what you have said here. I too do not represent the views of my or any other government, these are simply my personal beliefs and in the interests of free speech I feel entitled to air these views openly, any person is more than welcome to disagree with me, I am quite comfortable with that.

Tashi

To Tashi: :

quote" What was the Peoples Republic of China (PRC) liberating Tibet from? Itself? or was China simply "liberating" the resources and strategic geographical location of Tibet as a military buffer zone, so protecting the homeland? Or was something else the catalyst for the invasion?"
----
China had free Tibetans from slavery. I believe that Dalai Lama want independent that had driven Chinese invasion, Tibetans could have kept all, culture, freedom of practicing religions, include eat and Sh**t except independant, Chinese gorvernment is allergic with that..that is only my opinion, but there is 1.3 billions opinions that is not revealed.
----
quote" I have some sympathies with the Chinese defence position, the country suffered enormously under the Japanese occupation, but, at the expense of Tibet's sovereinty? I think not, PRC's defensive objectives could have been more easily achieved through negotiation and peaceful means, infinitely more benignly than they were."
------
Japs are opportunism, they had toke adventage weak period of China & Western invasion to fish in trouble water. In 1 vs 1, they won't dare. the lesson is well taught, we had pay a price for been weak, China need to be strong & powerfull or misfortune will strke again.

What you talking about "expense of Tibet's sovereinty?" Tibet is part of China, we don't need to negociate what is belong to us. China already offer the best for Tibetans, their civil right is much better than Han people... Ironically, Han people can only have one child + pay for education while they can have more + free education..and more
------
quote" Where in all this is the compassion, the understanding and tolerance of another peoples, where is the subtlety, guile and long term planning for which the Chinese race have generally been known and respected for over the centuries?"
---------
I don't know what you try to get at?
---
quote" China has some kind of a blind spot, or should that be a blind hatred of all things Tibetan, is it the fact that Tibet is something other? therefore unknown, to be feared, to be despised and treated disrespectfully.
----
LMAO, where you try to come with...with all these questions?
-----
quote" China is a mighty country, it should use it's power and influence carefully and set a good example to the world by working harmoniously with its neighbours. "Those who live by the sword die by the sword", or more prosaically;
"treat other people as you would wish to be treated yourself".
------
I don't think we need to set a example because China is not perfect, only care for face saving is bad national interest policy, that only penalize and resticte the freedom of actions. And we don't need to export ours values, only unsellable values that some countries try hard to export or force other to accepted.

I believe that China will live by book & by sword: treate Chaos with sword & peace with book, we have knowlege both, that's while China still united afer 5000 years, if we have to die by sword, so be it at least is valuable.

Provocation & bullying only invite desasters... Chinese people knew how to respect others and make others to respect us.
---
quote" The Dalai Lama is not really the issue here, the sovereignty and freedom of Tibet is."
---
Indeed China's sovereignty is an issue.

---
Shooting at Tibetan people who were leaving Tibet as recently as October 2006 shows the kind of "respect" accorded Tibetans by the Chinese government.
-------
I know nothing about that incident, but shooting is big too severe for leaving Tibet at first glande, PLA could have just captured these people..there again we're only base on superficial informations from western media, no until the true story come out. But I believe strongly that these solders didn't without a good reason or they will face prosecution even death penalty.
---------
quote "I ask the rhetorical question, what exactly is the PRC so afraid of?? "
-----
that is vague as question, be more specific

------------------------------------------------
Note: I don't claim to be reprentitive of the gorverment, hence I entitle only my own opinion, there's still 1.3 billion chinese opinions regarding Tibet issue, so I hope my chinese brothers and sisters don't bash me for what I had said.

Fong Fong:


Commentator "MIMI" and "TO MIMI",

Both of you are caught in the Paradox of Future.

MIMI, you wrote: "...it is difficult to tell the future."
TO MIMI, you wrote: " Let the future tell us..."

The Paradox of Future is Future is not determined but is to be shaped. Through your own actions, you influence how the Future unfolds. Unfortunately, up to now, your actions are aimed at each other, so they cancel each other, and you have no influence on the Future.

But if you combine your action and work towards the common goal, then your forces can influence how the Future unfolds and create a world that both of you would enjoy to live in.


Take care,

Fong Fong

To Mimi: :

quote "The people on this blog defending Tibetan rights ARE contributing to the world positively, educating people about the unjust occupation of Tibet by China. Rich and Bod especially have contributed substantively to this discussion. "
------

Mimi please don't bush**t your compliment with none sense affirmation, should I have to be in your side to be considered as "positive contributor to the world"? Definitely Chinese people will label me as most peace lover man in this world....HAHAHA. please dont talk with none sense
-------
quote" Fong Fong, Re: enlightenment, Mahayana Buddhists vow to continue rebirth until all sentient beings are enlightened. This could be made easier if genocide would stop, and we could concentrate on creative, respectful solutions to world problems."
-----
I don't know much about Fong Fong religious "political" vocation, but I respect his opinion.

--------
quote: Also, I was thinking that if China wants to remain an atheist country, they should probably not try to incorporate Tibet into it. The Chinese may all end up Tibetan Buddhists someday!"
--------
China is inland Tibetan brother's country, do you think I mind if if all Chinese become Tibetan Buddhists? not at all.
---------
quote" And to our Han person with the persecution complex and who regrets not killing all the Tibetans already: Your statement regretting not killing all the Tibetans already so that China would not have to deal with Tibetans an inexcusable statement shows that you are ignorant. This kind of statement invites deep criticism, the kind you probably would call "China bashing." "
--------------
Mimi, you should know that China treat our inland Tibetan brothers far better than what western had done to Inca, Maya, Aztec, American native peoples, they all got assimilated or wiped out less than few hundred years, Tibetans stayed with China for millenium and still exist today. It's not our nature to wiped out minorities to create space for Han people, we only want to coexist and share the properity.

And I recongnize that is wrong to what I wrote on my previous post about that China should have wiped out Tibetans to avoid today's tibetan issue, for that I apoloze: what i'm trying to get at is that all those extincted civilization people don't even have a voice today to say a single word about western crime & exploitation, but we had spared Tibetans and turn against us, don't you think how ironic? releasing a tiger back to mountain will only hurt people, China won't make that mistake again.

----
quote" Also, it is short sighted to proclaim that Tibet will always be part of China, since it was not previously part of China, and it is difficult to tell the future. It is not inconceivable that the Roman Empire and other defunct powers also made proclamation about the lands they invaded. "
-------
China always have a long vision for Tibet and can tell you the future now: with economic booming & thank for western inventif junks such T.V. Car, playstation games, playboy magazine with XXX, PC...Tibetans in China will eventually more concern to have all these junks and personal fortune than a potential misfortune with political adventure.

And you lose again if you try to compare China to Roman Empire, We alway had a extreme long vision, Roman empire is short sighted, that's why China still exist and not roman empire. Let the future tell us who will be the most convincing prediction: you or me

Fong Fong:


Many people in the world (Tibet, China, United States, ... Everywhere) are caught in the Paradox of Rhetoric: Freedom, Rights, and Responsibilities.


## Freedom: Freedom is innate while Rights are given. A person's Rights can all be taken away yet the person still retains the Freedom to think.


## Rights: Rights come only with Responsibilities. A child gets more rights as the child becomes more responsible for his/her own life.


## Responsibilities: "People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of brotherhood and sisterhood. We need to cultivate a universal *Responsibility* for one another and the planet we share." (From Dalai Lama's Nobel Peace speech)


The path to enlightenment is to understand there is only one planet. We clean the dirtiest part of the planet, we breath easier at the cleanest place. We lift up the weakest person in the world, we enlarge the room for ourselves no matter where we live.

Take care,

Fong Fong

Tashi:

What was the Peoples Republic of China (PRC) liberating Tibet from? Itself? or was China simply "liberating" the resources and strategic geographical location of Tibet as a military buffer zone, so protecting the homeland? Or was something else the catalyst for the invasion?

I have some sympathies with the Chinese defence position, the country suffered enormously under the Japanese occupation, but, at the expense of Tibet's sovereinty? I think not, PRC's defensive objectives could have been more easily achieved through negotiation and peaceful means, infinitely more benignly than they were.

Where in all this is the compassion, the understanding and tolerance of another peoples, where is the subtlety, guile and long term planning for which the Chinese race have generally been known and respected for over the centuries?

China has some kind of a blind spot, or should that be a blind hatred of all things Tibetan, is it the fact that Tibet is something other? therefore unknown, to be feared, to be despised and treated disrespectfully.

China is a mighty country, it should use it's power and influence carefully and set a good example to the world by working harmoniously with its neighbours. "Those who live by the sword die by the sword", or more prosaically;
"treat other people as you would wish to be treated yourself".

The Dalai Lama is not really the issue here, the sovereignty and freedom of Tibet is.

Shooting at Tibetan people who were leaving Tibet as recently as October 2006 shows the kind of "respect" accorded Tibetans by the Chinese government.

I ask the rhetorical question, what exactly is the PRC so afraid of??

Mimi:

The people on this blog defending Tibetan rights ARE contributing to the world positively, educating people about the unjust occupation of Tibet by China. Rich and Bod especially have contributed substantively to this discussion.

Fong Fong, Re: enlightenment, Mahayana Buddhists vow to continue rebirth until all sentient beings are enlightened. This could be made easier if genocide would stop, and we could concentrate on creative, respectful solutions to world problems.

Also, I was thinking that if China wants to remain an atheist country, they should probably not try to incorporate Tibet into it. The Chinese may all end up Tibetan Buddhists someday!

And to our Han person with the persecution complex and who regrets not killing all the Tibetans already: Your statement regretting not killing all the Tibetans already so that China would not have to deal with Tibetans an inexcusable statement shows that you are ignorant. This kind of statement invites deep criticism, the kind you probably would call "China bashing."

Also, it is short sighted to proclaim that Tibet will always be part of China, since it was not previously part of China, and it is difficult to tell the future. It is not inconceivable that the Roman Empire and other defunct powers also made proclamation about the lands they invaded.

Fong Fong:

Commentator "ANONYMOUS" and "AT YOU",

Both of you are caught in the Paradox of Me: I am smart so You must be ignorant; I am free so You must be oppressed; I am logical so You must be illogical; I am good so You must be bad; I see things clearly so You must be blind; I win so You must lose; I am powerful so You must be powerless.

The path to enlightenment is to understand that you are no one special but you can contribute to the world so hopefully humanity is a little bit better as a result.


Take care,

Fong Fong


AT YOU:

@Anonymous

I have lived in China, I know how ignorant you so-called "educated" Chinese are, and you are a prime example. The Chinese in the cities do not think or know much about the west of China, but are more concerned with making money and the changes around them. For them, Tibet and Xinjiang are distant places that they visit when they go on vacation. Nevertheless, no matter how apolitical a person, I find that Chinese become frothing-at-mouth enraged when you mention, Taiwan, Tibet, or Xinjiang--or any of China's other contested claims. Of course, like you, they cannot back-up their arguments logically or factually, because they don't know how to argue, as you have ably demonstrated time and again. Rather, they have been indoctrinated from a very young age to support their leader's perverse view of history and society, and when you prompt them, they simply regurgitate.

There is a very big difference between the Chinese state media and the media in the west. Our media is free and open: you can say anything you want on television, whereas in China, if you dared to say the wrong word about Tibet or Taiwan, you would be fired and jailed. In the west, we hear a diversity of opinion. You get the state propaganda, over, and over and over.

Keep studying English! You'll need it!

To Bod Rangzen:

quote "Today the peoples of these former colonialists do not claim sovereignty or superiority over their former victims, neither do they continue genocidal occupations over them."
-------------------
Because they dont have anymore the same power as what they had before. If this world is left open for attack, those colonialists will size the opportunity. so don't make innocent about those colonilists
--------------------
quote" China on the other hand has continued such genocidal terror over their peaceful Tibetan neighbors ever since the communists established their dictatorship in 1949."
-----------------
you're just brainwasherd but western media, buy a ticket and go to take a look in tibet, the tourism is booming there. this will bring you back to reality, westerners only shown are only dirty, uncomb hair and poor peasants, this will be better to support their claim about chinese bad doing in Tibet.
------------
quote” When the blatantly indoctrinated Han-chauvinists are pointed out their regime's and nation's crimes against humanity, they only regurgitate even more fantastical rewritings of history. "Look, country X did evil things hundreds of years ago so we have the right to commit genocide _today_!!!"
-------------
History is a mirror of humanity either China or others countries, only you and your kind don't know what is the purpose of the history. By compararing X-country, we can tell the world what China did and others had done to their native people so let them just by themselves. If China had wiped out it natives people same way as other did, we won’t have this discussion today, regrettably China should had done this, so Tibetan issue is a pass same way as Inca, Aztec, American native people, we were not cruel enough.
--------
quote” The bottom line of these Han-chauvinist fairytales is that the Tibetan people - who are in _every_ way non-chinese (in ethnicity, language, its sanskrit-based script, history, religion) - and all the lands of their nation simply belong to the Han-chauvinists in modern times because some chinese god-emperor (who are otherwise totally disowned and bedeviled by the communist regime) claimed to be the center of the world and all known lands were supposedly vassals!”
-----
that is your pathetic though, we’re living in 21st century, noone believe that craps, and you’re still living in the dark age.
---
quote “According to such logic the Han-chauvinists can not accept the independent status of the vast majority of today's free nation states, including the Republic of India, because almost every nation has at one time or another during the dark ages of history been under nominal or de facto occupation by some foreign aggressor.”
----
Chinese people is not lunatic as you and your kind, we defend only what is belong to us. Tibet is part or China whether you like or not, this will no change and will never be changed. As your frame to involve India, nice try but won’t work.
---
quote” Apparently only brutal and even genocidal occupation provides legitimacy according to the twisted and anacronistic doctrine of the chinese regime. Hundreds of thousands of heavily armed foreign Han troops and hundreds of illegal torture camps and nearly total lack of civil freedoms for the Tibetans are all the legitimacy the occupying chinese can claim. But in the end the shame belongs to the chinese people who allow these crimes to continue unopposed.”
---
There again, you just copy and paste the same craps from western media, did I learn anything new?? No nothing
---
quote” In the address below are some plain and sober facts about Tibet and the orchestrated propaganda efforts by the occupying chinese regime”
---
you want to make me believe those craps from separatist?… gonna be kidding me, what ever written in that website, I won’t give a damn same way as they traited China new as propaganda.

To Fong Fong:

Thanks for your explanation. I appreciate what you are doing.

I know that the vast majority of Han Chinese are good people, but I do see strong elements of brutality and avarice in their culture, while mind control and eccentric interpretations of history are pervasive in their system. This, I believe, is dangerous.

Anonymous:

TO TO AT YOU:
quote:"Believe me, if I have an inferiority complex, it is most certainly not relative to Han Chinese, whose principle contribution to the world and humanity is cheap labor. Everything else is begged, borrowed, and stolen."
----
Better not being relative to Han Chinese or you will be only a second class citizens with your previous statement. What ever China did and contribute to this world not only enhance Chinese prestige even U.S has to show respect toward China...read the news man. only ignorant such you and your kind will only eat whatever the left over from this world.
------------------
"As for the rest of your statement, it is typical, illogical, circular rubbish and insults that simply claims that you do not have to be logical and then disparages my argument without evidence. Then you arbitrarily claim that Tibet is a natural part of China, again without evidence. "
--------------
I have to intent to insult anyone beside those Chinese bashers, they had contribute nothing other than bashing. As for the proof about Tibet, this subject had been discussing serveral decades, Tibetan Separatists will never the proof from Chinese sources, they will flatly reject so I'm no going to waste my time. when peoples only have independent in mind, the best evident will be dismiss.
-------
Aren't you just regurgitating the propaganda they piped-down your throat, you moron? That's what Chinese normally do.
-----
If you talk to yourself, I won't blame you. I received enought of education to differenciate what is Propanda and what is "China interest".
I'm alway for China interest and I dont give a sh**t about CCP propaganda. only morons such you and your kind still believe that all Chineses are living under communist.
-----
quote"20,000 websites are blocked in China to ensure that you don't know the truth!"
------------
Not all Chinese follows blindly the propaganda machine especially those educated people ( we know how to find other sources), and for uneducated ones, they dont care about politic only money. There again you have no clue about the reality in China, you just copy and past a piece of crap new from either CNN or other western media.
------------------------
quote"To those of you who claim that the Chinese policy in Tibet is akin to the American history with native Americans: your only claim to correctness is the logic of force, and by the same argument Japan's Nanjing policy was well justified."
-----------------------
Chinese had never done to Tibetans on how Japs did to Chinese people, PLA only deal with rebellions and separatists, we had never massive behead or bure alive innocents tibetans civilians, or commite sex slavery again Tibetans women. If Chinese had carried the same way as Japs, you won't find a single tibetan nowaday.

you comparasion only invite destruction.

Cho:

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the human rights movement was something that came out of the second world war. Since that time, international law and the international consciousness and acceptance of human rights and self-determination has become the order of the world and all nations need to accept this reality.

Fong Fong:

An ideologue is someone who pretends to possess some special enlightenment. I am a Han Chinese and I am no one special. I have been lucky to have discovered an enlightenment which I want to contribute to the world so hopefully humanity is a little bit better as a result.

Take care,

Fong Fong


To Fong Fong:

Your "caring" instruction is ridiculous and patronizing. It is beyond me why you patrol this bulletin board as if it is your job. You need to probe the paradox of your own dedication to "correcting" the statements of others and why you deceive yourself and pretend to possess some special enlightenment. I read some of your other posts, and it's clear that you are an ideologue.

I have no fear whatsoever of Han Chinese. However, I was referring to another post wherein I stated the fact that they are a deeply racist, chauvinistic people. But theirs is coming.

Fong Fong:

Commentator "TO TO AT YOU",

You are caught in the Paradox of Logic - Law of Unintended Consequences is not Logical but Paradoxical.

The key is to confront Your own Fear: Your Fear of the Han Chinese.

At the end of your fear, you will have Courage. You will then see the world as a Brighter place, your heart will be more Tranquil, and your mind will be more Creative.

Take care,

Fong Fong

TO TO AT YOU:

Believe me, if I have an inferiority complex, it is most certainly not relative to Han Chinese, whose principle contribution to the world and humanity is cheap labor. Everything else is begged, borrowed, and stolen.

As for the rest of your statement, it is typical, illogical, circular rubbish and insults that simply claims that you do not have to be logical and then disparages my argument without evidence. Then you arbitrarily claim that Tibet is a natural part of China, again without evidence.

Aren't you just regurgitating the propaganda they piped-down your throat, you moron? That's what Chinese normally do.

20,000 websites are blocked in China to ensure that you don't know the truth!

To those of you who claim that the Chinese policy in Tibet is akin to the American history with native Americans: your only claim to correctness is the logic of force, and by the same argument Japan's Nanjing policy was well justified.

Fong Fong:

Commentator "Bod Rangzen",

You wrote: "...claimed to be the center of the world and all known lands were supposedly vassals!..."

Many leaders in the past and present are caught in the Paradox of Civilization: A great Civilization is not one that subjugates the whole World, but is one that uplifts the spirit of the whole Humanity.


Take care,

Fong Fong

Fong Fong:

Commentator "Bod Rangzen",

You wrote: "...claimed to be the center of the world and all known lands were supposedly vassals!..."

Many leaders in the past and present are caught in the Paradox of Civilization: A great Civilization is not one that subjugates the whole World, but is one that uplifts the spirit of the whole Humanity.


Take care,

Fong Fong

Fong Fong:

Commentator "Bod Rangzen",

You wrote: "...claimed to be the center of the world and all known lands were supposedly vassals!..."

Many leaders in the past and present are caught in the Paradox of Civilization: A great Civilization is not one that subjugates the whole World, but is one that uplifts the spirit of the whole Humanity.


Take care,

Fong Fong

Expansionist regimes have _always_ lied about their "right" for attacking and invading other countries, and the victims are invariably far less militarized than the aggressors.

Before democracy became the norm in Europe, several European kingdoms undertook indecent acts against foreign peoples near and far. Today the peoples of these former colonialists do not claim sovereignty or superiority over their former victims, neither do they continue genocidal occupations over them.

China on the other hand has continued such genocidal terror over their peaceful Tibetan neighbors ever since the communists established their dictatorship in 1949.

When the blatantly indoctrinated Han-chauvinists are pointed out their regime's and nation's crimes against humanity, they only regurgitate even more fantastical rewritings of history. "Look, country X did evil things hundreds of years ago so we have the right to commit genocide _today_!!!"

The bottom line of these Han-chauvinist fairytales is that the Tibetan people - who are in _every_ way non-chinese (in ethnicity, language, its sanskrit-based script, history, religion) - and all the lands of their nation simply belong to the Han-chauvinists in modern times because some chinese god-emperor (who are otherwise totally disowned and bedeviled by the communist regime) claimed to be the center of the world and all known lands were supposedly vassals!

According to such logic the Han-chauvinists can not accept the independent status of the vast majority of today's free nation states, including the Republic of India, because almost every nation has at one time or another during the dark ages of history been under nominal or de facto occupation by some foreign aggressor.

Apparently only brutal and even genocidal occupation provides legitimacy according to the twisted and anacronistic doctrine of the chinese regime. Hundreds of thousands of heavily armed foreign Han troops and hundreds of illegal torture camps and nearly total lack of civil freedoms for the Tibetans are all the legitimacy the occupying chinese can claim. But in the end the shame belongs to the chinese people who allow these crimes to continue unopposed.

In the address below are some plain and sober facts about Tibet and the orchestrated propaganda efforts by the occupying chinese regime.

http://studentsforafreetibet.org/article.php?list=type&type=7

(Tibet Today, History and Culture, Fact Vs. Myth etc.)

To Chuande Tu:

Damn, I'm so ignorant, I didnt know that British was behind this, not only they had made big mess for China about tibet, it had made India as China enemy too. I had alway though only CIA was the only one involment but this is really new to me.

Chuande Tu:

I post the follow message with regard to how Tibet became part of China and some aspects of Tibetan history in early the 20th century and in the mid-1940s. The message as a post is lengthy. I wrote the message for other purpose. I hope that the message will be helpful for the discussion of the Tibet issue in this forum.

By mid-August 1945, Tibet had already been out of Chinese central government control over 33 years. Situated in the southwestern part of China, Tibet bordered with British-India, Nepal, Bhutan, and Sikkim. It occupied an area of 921,600 square kilometers, standing for about 8.2 percent of then China’s territory, with an estimated population of 847,000 people.

During the period of more than 1,000 years before 1663, the Chinese called the region of Tibet with a variety of names. In 1663, the government of the Manchu Qing dynasty in Beijing began to call the region “Xizang,” meaning “Buddhist scripture of the west” or “western storage,” and the name has used by the Chinese to this day. In 1716-1717, the Mongolian forces invaded Tibet from today’s Xinjiang and sacked Lasa, the capital of Tibet. By 1720, the Manchu-Chinese army dispatched by the Qing government expelled the Mongol army from Tibet. In the same year, the young 7th Dalai Lama, who had been under protection of the Qing government and grown up under the supervision of the Chinese emperor, was escorted to Tibet and assumed his position there, Tibet was thus absorbed into China. The Qing government established the office of its resident commissioner (amban), which represented the authority of Beijing, in Lasa and maintained it until the dynasty’s demise. During the 18th-19th centuries, the Tibetan local government under the Dalai Lama managed day-to-day internal affairs in Tibet.

In 1887, two thousand British troops attacked the Tibetan border from Sikkim, which became a protectorate of the British Empire in 1846. From December 1903 to September 1904, the British troops from British-India invaded Tibet once more. This time, they reached Lasa and occupied it for more than one month and a half, and, as what had done in earlier adventures in Egypt and Eastern China, these “civilized” gentlemen engaged in large-scale looting of Tibetan treasures, along with raping Tibetan women and destroying Tibetans’ properties. In the Anglo-Chinese treaty signed in April 1906, although the British did not specify whether China had the sovereignty over Tibet, which the Chinese had persisted during the treaty negotiations, or the suzerainty, which the Chinese had resolutely opposed during the negotiations, they did recognize Tibet as part of China. This was because China was on the rapid rise at the time. (Contrary to the conventional wisdom that believes that the Qing dynasty “continued” to decline and decay during the last years of its reign, during its last 11 years from 1901 to 1911, the Qing dynasty was in a rapid rise as a result of the reforms unfolded during the period. The reforms of 1901-1911 were a wholesale modernization movement and its focus, but not exclusively, was institutional reform. By 1911, the achievements that the Qing government had made in all reform arenas, such as political institutions, modern economy, military, education, legal system and some aspects of social life, were also so remarkable that no reasonable person can deny them. For example, from 1901 to 1911, China’s modern industry, including the transportation sector, underwent a striking expansion and its annual growth rate was about 15.5 percent. This was the fastest annual growth rate of modern industry in a period of 11 years in the first half of the 20th century in China and perhaps the fastest in the world in the early 20th century.) In other words, it was China’s fast rise that prompted the United Kingdom, other major powers in the world alike, who ultimately believed in only the law of jungle in the realm of international affairs, to recognize Tibet as part of China. It was also due to China’s speedy rise, the diplomacy of the United Kingdom regarding Tibet from April 1906 to October 1911 revealed that the British gave tacit consent to China’s sovereignty in Tibet.

When the Qing government finally mended the fence for its southwestern territory in 1906, it set out the reforms in Tibet and sent Han and Manchu officials there to directly supervise the reforms. Similar to the threefold aim of the reforms unfolded by the Qing government in Outer Mongolia then, the Qing government’s reforms in Tibet were aimed to build a modern Tibet, make it a province, which meant the direct rule of the central government, and prevent the British from encroaching on it. Although the reforms in Tibet in the early 20th century were long overdue and desperately needed and the Qing’s reforms of 1906-1911 in Tibet generated impressive achievements, which were acknowledged even by anti-Han Chinese Tibetan officials and went some way toward winning the allegiance of average Tibetans, Tibetan ruling elite headed by the 13th Dalai Lama vehemently resented the reforms, for, as what happened in Outer Mongolia during the same period, it hurt the vested interests of Tibetan ruling elite. Beijing dispatched a 1,700-men unit of the New Army (The New Army was China’s modern Army and the process of building up the New Army started after the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895.) to Tibet in January 1910 in order to gain military control over it. The 13th Dalai Lama fled Lasa on February 12, 1910 for British-India and Beijing responded by deposing him on February 25. The deposition of the 13th Dalai Lama did not cause foreign powers’ intervention or stir up the unrest in Tibet. In British-India, the deposed Dalai Lama consecutively sought the United Kingdom and Russia for aid, but was declined. On March 19, Beijing instructed its resident commissioner in Lasa to start to look for the boy who was the “real incarnation” of the late 12th Dalai Lama. It takes a few years to complete the procedure of discovering the “incarnation” of the late Dalai Lama and installing the “incarnation” as the Dalai Lama. The deposed 13th Dalai Lama’s political life seemed over and his religious status ruined.

Nevertheless, the 1911 revolution saved the deposed Dalai Lama politically and religiously. It also disrupted the Qing’s impressive reforms in Tibet and made a de facto independent Tibet possible. In November 1911, the revolutionaries in the Qing’s New Army in Tibet, which had augmented to about 3,800 men by then, revolted against the Qing dynasty and soon established a revolutionary regime in Tibet. The new regime, which was corrupt and incompetent and filled with internal power struggle, had little authority over the New Army in Tibet. The garrisons of the New Army in various locations in Tibet started to fight among themselves for various reasons and behaved very badly. The 1911 revolution thus threw the New Army in Tibet and therefore Tibet in a chaotic and volatile situation. In March 1912, the large-scale rebellion of indigenous Tibetans against the New Army and Han Chinese rule took place. When the troubled New Army restored both the original Qing’s resident commissioner and the original commanding general to power and ended their internal conflicts in June and July of 1912, it became evident that they were no longer able to maintain their presence in Tibet, for they had been seriously weakened by their internal fighting, the widespread Tibetan revolts, now supported by the British with the supplies of arms and ammunitions, and, most critically, none of reinforcements would come from China proper because of the British threats. (After the occurrence of the 1911 revolution, the British changed its China policy regarding Tibet from giving tacit consent to China’s sovereignty in Tibet to merely recognizing China’s nominal suzerainty over Tibet, prohibiting Beijing from exercising any power over Tibet, including dispatching the reinforcement force to Tibet. The aim of the new policy was to turn Tibet into British exclusive sphere of influence and a buffer zone between British-India and China.) Thus, the New Army in Tibet had to withdraw from Tibet. Part of them left as early as the spring of 1912; the rest started to withdraw in September 1912 and finished the withdrawal in a few months. Having lost control of Tibet, Beijing had no choice but to reinstate the deposed 13th Dalai Lama in his former position in late October 1912. The triumphant Dalai Lama returned to Lasa in January 1913, putting entire Tibet under his control again.

By mid-August 1945, the consecutive Beijing and Nanjing governments had been unable to extend their respective power over Tibet; nevertheless, none of them ceased to claim China’s sovereignty over it. From 1944 to mid-August 1945, in accordance with the so-called MacMahon Line, a borderline between British-India and Tibet declared by the British unilaterally, the British troops penetrated into and gradually annexed the Tibetan southern border region, perhaps the most valuable region in Tibet; the penetration and annexation were intensified after World War II and had not stopped until 1947, the year when the British left India and India achieved its independence in August. The Tibetan authorities lodged protest against the British aggression; the Guomindang government did the same. But neither one could do anything to stop it. Tibet, which regarded itself as an independent country, was too weak militarily to fight the British, whereas the Guomindang government did not have any of its troops in Tibet. Tibet’s southern border area occupied by the British during the period of 1944 to 1947 was inherited by independent India and that the area has remained part of disputed territory between China and India to this day.

The British and the Chinese were allies during World War II. While the two nations’ armies were fighting their common enemy of the Japanese in Burma in 1944-1945, the British, who still acknowledged that Tibet was part of China, were annexing their ally’s territory. Furthermore, giving the fact that after World War II the British knew very well that they were going to leave India soon, that the Chinese territory they had illegally occupied would be inherited by India, and that the Chinese troops would enter Tibet sooner or later, and therefore in effect they had being created big potential trouble for the two Asian nations, but they continued the encroachment on China anyway. The motive of the British was really malicious.
The British annexation of China’s territory in 1944-1947 proves once more that though domestically democracy in modern times is the best or least evil political system so far, internationally it has not mitigated Western democratic nations’ territorial expansionism, other forms of aggression alike, in the slightest way. In modern times the United Kingdom was a well-established democratic nation, but it conducted numerous bloody and sometimes extraordinarily dirty aggressive wars across the world and thus established the largest Empire in human history. That reveals the moral level of the British nation. While the records of the United Kingdom’s encroachment on China in modern times were quite bad and it hurt China dearly, it was really fortunate that the United Kingdom was not China’s neighbor; otherwise, in the 19th century it might have brought fatal harm to China.

Fong Fong:

Thank you MIMI. I agree it is so important to have intellectual freedom so intelligent and passionate people can have outlets for their creative expressions. This is how innovation occurs and how new businesses are created so more people can live in a "well-off society in all-round way".
http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/cegv/eng/ljzg/shjjtj/t85851.htm

Take care,

Fong Fong

Fong Fong:

The paradox is when the weaker party rises up, it does not lessen the strength of the stronger party; instead it enlarges the room for everyone.

As an example, most people would agree today that the civil rights movement initiated by the weaker party did not weaken the stronger party, but enlarges the rights for everyone in America, including the stronger party.

Two parts in this paradox:
1) The weaker party has to rise up courageously and peacefully.
2) The stronger party has to be secure that its strength will not be lessened by this rise.

The path to enlightenment is to realize that when a child grows up, the child does not lessen the strength of the parents, instead the child enlarges the family.

This is what I believe is our prodigy Annie Wang is saying all along.

Take care,

Fong Fong

Mimi:

HW et al.,
I haven't seen anyone claiming that the Iraq war is about freedom and democracy on this blog. That's another complex story. Both situations center around a more powerful country robbing another country's natural resources and killing its people, and massive destruction. However, we're discussing Tibet and China here.

I agree that ignorance is used as a tool against people, that is why it is so important to have intellectual freedom. Religious fundamentalism thrives when there is no access to other information.

And to "TO HW": A modern country does not mean a happy country or a sustainable country.

Fong Fong:

Commentator "TRUE COLOR OF DALAI LAMA",

This is from Dalai Lama's Nobel Prize acceptance speech, "...a simple monk from Tibet I am no one special..."
http://www.tibet.com/DL/nobelaccept.html

The Paradox is as humans we are no one Special, yet each of us is capable of achieving Greatness that is Holy.


Take care,

Fong Fong

true color of Dalai Lama:


The Dalai Lama's hidden past

http://www.greenleft.org.au/1996/248/13397

Fong Fong:

Commentator "MIMI",

You wrote: "I want China to do what will be best for China, which is to give Tibet back to the Tibetans."

The paradox is: How can one give back something that does NOT belong to one, and how can one take something from another that does not belong to one.

For example, how can someone take away my self-respect? If no one can take away my self-respect, then how can I ask it back?


The path to enlightenment is to realize that as humans, the planet belongs to all of us. Tibet belongs to Tibetans; Tibet belongs to Chinese; Tibet belongs to Indians; Tibet belongs to Americans; ... Tibet belongs to United Nations; Tibet belongs to the World; Tibet belongs to You and Me. And this is WHY we care so much about protecting the sacred environment of the pristine areas of Tibet.

Take care,

Fong Fong

To HW:

We're living in double standard world, don't expect much of exiled tibetans and westerners to understand us, they will keep bashing China and chinese people whether we like or not: If that is a a therapy for them, then so be it, It's not gonna change anything. The most important is that China keep progressing to built a modern world for our people including tibetans people in China.

hw:

Is the iraq war about democracy and freedom. Is China an evil empire oppressing tibet, and freedom loving people?

If you think the above 2 are true you are living ignorant in a black and white world.

During the Korean war, China felt very threatened by the US. The US actually ran covert bombing raids into China and MacArthur wanted to attack Beijing outright. This is the reason MacArthur was sacked. Simultaneously the CIA was funding a revolution in tibet. the CIA continues to fund movements associated with Tibet.

Religious fundamentalism and ignorance are tools leaders use on the masses.


http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/25/dalai-lama-on-cia-payroll/

Mimi:

The independent Tibetan government has had its own postage stamps since 1912.
http://www.tibet.com/Stamps/index.html

Thank you, Fong. I do not hate China, I want China to do what will be best for China, which is to give Tibet back to the Tibetans. I want China to stop killing and torturing people, discriminating against ethnic groups, poisoning themselves and the rest of the planet, and to stop their environmental racism. I want Chinese to have access to information so they can make informed decisions for themselves. These things will all be positive changes for China and everyone else, too.


Fong Fong:

Commentator "MIMI",

You are caught in Paradox of Love: Until you learn to Love your Enemy, you will never be able to change your Karma.

Take care,

Fong Fong

Fong Fong:

Commentator "Bod Rangzen",

You wrote: "Annie Wang has seen injustice and found her soul. Will she be attacked upon return to her native Han-chinese country?"

Annie Wang not only has her Soul, but has her Courage as well. Only a PRODIGY is capable of reaching this High Level of Being.

Annie Wang is in Shanghai, China as indicated by her picture.

Mastering the Paradox of Perception: You see only what You want to see, but It may not be Reality.

Take care,

Fong Fong

Mimi:

For anyone who may be interested, here are the Annual Reports, Human Rights Situation in Tibet by the Tibetan Center for Human Rights and Democracy:
http://www.tchrd.org/publications/annual_reports/

Mimi:

Here is an interesting article I read today that shows some of the common negative effects of Chinese influences in Tibet.
http://www.straight.com/article-77739/tibetans-anxious-over-new-influx-of-tourists

Bod Rangzen:

How can the chinese individuals justify their communist party army's genocidal occupation of China's peaceful neighbor of Tibet, an ancient civilization which is 100% non-chinese?

Because some past megalomaniac ruler in Peking he was the center of the world although in real life Tibet was ruled by Tibetans themselves?

By that logic the civil-warring chinese should have welcomed their imperial japanese rulers. Too bad the americans beat them back to their homeland? Japanese at least have some past cultural ties with China, unlike Tibet. And China was used to having foreign Manchu rulers anyway.

But peace-loving Tibetans have for two generations already seen over a million of their people die under chinese rule, their identities and lands and resources stolen, culture and monasteries ruined, language discriminated and now their country is being overrun by flood of invader migrants.

Could the chinese individuals think: what if that was China under brutal foreign occupation instead of Tibet, and the invaders knew no shame at all?

Did Mao kill all social conscience and humanity towards other peoples in chinese people??

Annie Wang has seen injustice and found her soul. Will she be attacked upon return to her native Han-chinese country?

apple:

To you-know-who-you-are,

Do not categorize the entire human race to have illogical mind like what you're protraying yourself to be from your response.
Since when "educate == bashing-cum-degrading".

If you sincerely want to "educate" human, please get to know earthlings and their world better. There are many countries that people from different races and cultures live harmoniously together while preserving their own beliefs, religions and cultures. (this includes western countries as well)

I hope one day, Tibetans and Chinese could find a win-win solution and live together harmoniously with respect towards each others' beliefs, cultures and religion.

Mimi:

China might do well to concentrate on renewable sources of energy, such as wind, solar, and biofuels. Maybe then China would not be so desperate to pillage Tibet's natural resources to sell to other countries.

Fong Fong:

The Paradox of Respect:
Once a person gains Self-Respect, the person starts to Respect Others, and Others start to Respect that Person in return. The Paradox is Mastered.

The Paradox of Gift:
The moment you decide to Give is the moment you realize how much you already Have.


Take care,

Fong Fong


Fong Fong:

Commentator "MIMI",

You wrote: "Respect in the Buddhist view is also respecting oneself, as any action that one commits comes back on oneself eventually."

Self-Respect seems to be a Universal Value that is common to all religious thoughts and philosophical thoughts.

Confucius (Chapter 1, Phrase 16): "Do not be concerned about others not appreciating you. Be concerned about your not appreciating others."


Take care,


Fong Fong

TO AT YOU: :

quote" Why is it that the defenders of "unified China" do not feel the need to defend their arguments with facts, but rather make disparaging remarks towards the other commenters? "
------
some peoples did not contribute anything to this discussion but just copy and paste China and chinese bashing crap from western media. So I just try to educate them...
-----
quote"I would suggest that it is because they are accustomed to being indoctrinated and accepting truth by coercion, not as a logical, evidence-based argument."
-----
Who says that Humans have logical mind? in politic everything is about "national interest"
If you as American to cede the land to native people, are they gonna accept that? you will certainly understand chinese's position about tibet. For sure China treat Tibetans much better than what U.S had done to their native people.
----
quote"quote "To those of you who that the west is "using" the Tibetans, why do you pretend that the Chinese are doing anything but imposing their culture, language, and exploiting Tibet for its natural resources? There are more troops in occupied Tibet than there are in Iraq today, and there are few peoples as deeply racist and chauvinistic as Han Chinese. They are blind, ignorant tools who know nothing but what they have been programmed to believe."
----------
Tibet is part of China, it's natural to them integrate to Chinese sociaty (culture & language). As for Natural resources, China is deseparately need its for economy growth, every advance naions such U.S europe need resources.

For the rest of your pathetic statement, I won't bother to reply, an inferior complexe such you and your kinds will end up with chinese bashing.

Mimi:

I agree with Rich, but I am not sure what Fong Fong is talking about. Respect in the Buddhist view is also respecting oneself, as any action that one commits comes back on oneself eventually. There are also vows that are respected that guide Buddhists through life, simliar to the Christian ten commandments: protect life, respect others' property, etc.

If FF is implying that Tibetans lack self respect, I don't agree. As Buddhists, they have a world view that understands that this life isn't the only one there is, and one will have to live with one's actions in a future life. That is the nature of existence and karma. Karma is an ecology of actions and a basic tenet of Buddhism.

The Dalai Lama has asked Tibetans not to respond violently to the Chinese. As a Buddhist, I think it is possible to kick China's ass with compassion. Hopefully, China will learn to respect itself.

It will be interesting to see what kinds of human rights issues are discussed when China is in the limelight because of the Olympics.

Fong Fong:

Respect means respecting yourself. Once you have self-respect, it does NOT matter that the majority disrespects you. A person's dignity is NOT lessened because the mainstream does not respect you.

Take care,

Fong Fong

Rich Felker:

Admiring the Dalai Lama is a good start, but you should try also admiring and respecting the ordinary Tibetan people, who are not Chinese and who, at large, do not want to be Chinese.

Considering Tibetans as "minorities" is disrespectful and patronizing in itself. For millenia, Tibetans have been a majority in their own land, Tibet. Whether you want to call it a country or not in the modern sense is rather pedantic because the modern idea of nationhood did not evolve until sometime around the beginning of the 20th century, at which time (1911-1949) Tibet did exist as an independent nation with embassies, treaties, national currency, passports, a postal system, etc.

Regardless of all this, Tibetans were (and arguably still are, depending on how you count) the majority in Tibet. This only began to change after the hostile Chinese invasion in 1949. When China finally withdraws this occupation, Tibetans will continue to the be majority in Tibet.

Fong Fong:

Mastering Paradoxes so you can see the world as a Brighter place, your heart will be more Tranquil, and your mind will be more Creative.


Take care,


Fong Fong

Fong Fong:

Some people in the Chinese government, the U.S. government, and national governments around the world are caught in the Paradox of the World:

Helping the World means Helping our own Country, our own Community, our own Family, and Ourselves. We clean the dirtiest part of the planet, we breath easier at the cleanest place. We lift up the weakest person in the world, we enlarge the room for ourselves no matter where we live.

Take care,

Fong Fong


Tenzin:

In his Human Approach to World Peace the Dalai Lama said, "As all nations are economically dependent upon one another more than ever before, human understanding must go beyond national boundaries and embrace the international community at large. Indeed, unless we can create an atmosphere of genuine cooperation, gained not by threatened or actual use of force but by heartfelt understanding, world problems will only increase."

Why doesn't the Chinese Government have the courage to appreciate this thought of His Holiness? Can the Chinese Government hope to have a harmonious society when its defenders cannot even tolerate genuine criticism?

Fong Fong:

Commentator "ANONYMOUS",

Some people in China (not all, as the example of Professor Ge Jianxiong shows) are caught up in the historical paradox - nationalism in the world that is globalized. It can no longer just be in the national interest when the world is globalized. Leaders everywhere have to think outside the box - think in terms of global interest first, then national interest, then local interest, finally personal interest.


Take care,

Fong Fong

Anonymous:

I read an article today about the research of Professor Ge Jianxiong, Director of the Institute of Chinese Historical Geography at Fudan University in Shanghai. He has published an article in China Review that says that Tibet has not been considered part of China by the Chinese for as long as the Communist Party says it has. I have cut and pasted it here:

"... Before the foundation of the Republic of China in 1912, the idea of China (Chinese, Zhongguo) wasn't clearly conceptualised. Even during the late Manchu dynasty, the term 'China' would on occasion be used to refer to the "Qin State, including all the territory that fell within the boundaries of the Qing empire; though at times, it would refer only to the '18 interior provinces'. Manchuria, Inner Mongolia, Tibet and Xinjiang were not included."

Prof. Ge suggests that China "must understand the sum of our history."

Fong Fong:

Commentator "AT YOU",

You wrote: "They are blind, ignorant tools who know nothing but what they have been programmed to believe."

Unless you are Enlightened, others will appear Blind to you.

Take care,

Fong Fong

Fong Fong:

Commentators "TENZIN", "MIMI" and "To MIMI",

You are all very passionate about protecting the sacred environment of the pristine areas of Tibet. Now master the Paradox of Change: Change Thought, Change Reality.

Unleash your Creativity!


Take care,

Fong Fong

AT YOU:

Why is it that the defenders of "unified China" do not feel the need to defend their arguments with facts, but rather make disparaging remarks towards the other commenters? I would suggest that it is because they are accustomed to being indoctrinated and accepting truth by coercion, not as a logical, evidence-based argument.

To those of you who that the west is "using" the Tibetans, why do you pretend that the Chinese are doing anything but imposing their culture, language, and exploiting Tibet for its natural resources? There are more troops in occupied Tibet than there are in Iraq today, and there are few peoples as deeply racist and chauvinistic as Han Chinese. They are blind, ignorant tools who know nothing but what they have been programmed to believe.

To MiMi:

quote"Mimi:
The money China puts into Tibet is to mine sacred places and destroy the environment, it is not to help the Tibetan people. For example, the railway that was built to carry minerals back to China from Tibet brings more Chinese to Tibet, who then take land from Tibetans. Tibetans have been impoverished by the Chinese influx. "
-----
I suggest you to go to Tibet and look by yourself instead of copy and paste the text from western media regarding tibet, it's obvious that you have no clue of what's going there. Tibetan women become more and more sexy thank to western cosmetic product...I think you should get out your sh**t hole and go visiting Tibet if you're so passionate about it
---

Quote"What I hear from many different sources is that the vast majority of Tibetan's want the return of he Dalai Lama to Tibet, Tibetan independence, and to have the Chinese leave Tibet if they cannot respect the Tibetan people and their traditions. Though the Dalai Lama would settle for Tibetan autonomy, it would be preferable for many Tibetans to have nothing to do with their Chinese oppressors who have murdered over a million of their people."
---
there against, you're just copying and pasting these craps from other webs especially those anti-china site and make its as your own. I have heard that million time, you're the one million+1
does that make any different???
-------------
quote"The torture and murder of monks and nuns in Tibet is not just a thing of the past, it is the Chinese policy in Tibet to brutalize Tibetan Buddhists if they dare practice their faith, which includes reverence for the Dalai Lama, who they beleive is the reincarnation of Avalokitesvara, a Buddha. If the Chinese do not respect this, then they will continue murdering innocent people for practicing their religion.
--------
Mimi, give me a break, how many time your have to repeat the same craps over and over, I have count similar bashin at least 3 to 4 time from your previous posts.

If your IQ and intelligent are just allow you to copy & paste of some western craps talk about China relate to Tibet then you're really pathetic.
-----
Quote"Tibetan Buddhism teaches that there is a way to change old karma, and that requires changing one's ways and hhelping other people. Killing is avoided in Buddhism. Killing amasses misfortune on the perpetrators, according to Tibetan Buddhism. "
-----------
Karma again????
--------------
quote"
By the way, destroying the sacred mountains in Tibet by mining will endanger the healing herbs the Chinese sought for treating SARS. The sacred environment of the pristine areas of Tibet is priceless and cannot ever be replaced. It is short sighted and unwise of China to destroy it.
--------------
you think you're the only one who care about the environment & ecology? Tibet is part of China, we're more concern than you.

Tenzin:


Annie Wang,

If I may raise an issue with you, could you expand on the possible reasons why "Attitudes toward the Dalai Lama, however, remain hostile" in China.

It cannot be that the Chinese Middle Class, at least in the coastal regions or urban areas, are not familiar with the Dalai Lama.

What can be done to change the Chinese public's perception about the Dalai Lama and Tibet?

Mimi:

The money China puts into Tibet is to mine sacred places and destroy the environment, it is not to help the Tibetan people. For example, the railway that was built to carry minerals back to China from Tibet brings more Chinese to Tibet, who then take land from Tibetans. Tibetans have been impoverished by the Chinese influx.

What I hear from many different sources is that the vast majority of Tibetan's want the return of he Dalai Lama to Tibet, Tibetan independence, and to have the Chinese leave Tibet if they cannot respect the Tibetan people and their traditions. Though the Dalai Lama would settle for Tibetan autonomy, it would be preferable for many Tibetans to have nothing to do with their Chinese oppressors who have murdered over a million of their people.

The torture and murder of monks and nuns in Tibet is not just a thing of the past, it is the Chinese policy in Tibet to brutalize Tibetan Buddhists if they dare practice their faith, which includes reverence for the Dalai Lama, who they beleive is the reincarnation of Avalokitesvara, a Buddha. If the Chinese do not respect this, then they will continue murdering innocent people for practicing their religion.

Tibetan Buddhism teaches that there is a way to change old karma, and that requires changing one's ways and hhelping other people. Killing is avoided in Buddhism. Killing amasses misfortune on the perpetrators, according to Tibetan Buddhism.

By the way, destroying the sacred mountains in Tibet by mining will endanger the healing herbs the Chinese sought for treating SARS. The sacred environment of the pristine areas of Tibet is priceless and cannot ever be replaced. It is short sighted and unwise of China to destroy it.

mimi is a Chinese?:

Of course. Who else in the west has such interest to read and write those garbage propaganda.

Feel lost when Chinese stay at home have better and better life?

Pity.

By the way, China just announce to pour another $13 billion dollars to Tibet with a population of only 2 million Tibetans in the next 4 years.$10 billion already there in the last 10 years.

Tenzin:

I thought it was very moving for Annie Wang to talk about the development in her views on Tibet from the time when she was in China to when she was in the United States.

Although I am a Tibetan we do not need to take extreme positions (for Tibet or for China, if you will) to get the strongest message out of her column. Annie's exposure to more than one point of view on Tibet and His Holiness the Dalai Lama has enabled her to be a better Chinese. I believe that China's aspiration to be the next world leader can only succeed when its citizens are provided access to diverse information.

Annie symbolizes the several other Chinese in China today who are looking at Tibet through a different prism. In the past, the Chinese Government projected the image of the Tibetan people as barbarians, uncivilised and without any skills. Today, more and more Chinese are beginning to appreciate the contribution of Tibetan Buddhists, Tibetan medicine and culture. During the height of the SARS crisis in China even top Chinese leaders were running after Tibetan medicine because it was found to be effective.

Reading some of the postings made me feel that everyone, whether inside China, Tibet or in the rest of the world can help each other if we have better understanding of each others' position.

In my own way I have tried to reach out to the Chinese people, as much as emotionally I feel anger at the damage done to my country, and to see if we can heal the wound.

In this, His Holiness the Dalai Lama is playing the biggest role. As Annie says if the rest of China can come to appreciate the value of the Dalai Lama, this can only help China achieve the greatness it aspires to.

Fong Fong:

Commentator "MIMI",

You rightly pointed out the Paradox of Life: does the ugly PAST forever trap the brighter FUTURE? In other words, does "What goes around, comes around"? My answer is NO if one steps out of the Paradox of Life.

Take care,

Fong Fong


Mimi:

If China's so great, why did the Chinese invade Tibet and kill 1.3 million innocent Tibetans and demolish their monasteries? Why abduct a six year old boy and either kill him or keep him imprisoned? Why force Tibetans into poverty and prostitution? Why pollute the Yangtse River to the point of being a toxic sewer? Why shouldn't they have their own government, since Tibetans are not Chinese people anyway? Why brutally club all the dogs in a province to death last year because about eight out of 50,000 may have had rabies (then eat the dogs)?

In the west, we are free to get news from all over the world. Is the whole world brainwashed except China?

It is hard to find any answer that would ethically justify China's behavior. China is committing genocide, intentionally destroying the Tibetan people and culture in order to steal the Tibet's natural resources. Because China has no respect for other people, or even its own in Tianamen Square, for example, how can China expect others to respect them?

Fong Fong:

Commentators "MIMI" and "To MIMI",

Both of you are caught in the paradox of time - world progresses yet mind stalls. The key is to confront your own fear: "MIMI" - your fear of the Chinese government; "To MIMI" - your fear of westerners. At the of your fear, you will have courage. You will then see the world as a Brighter place, your heart will be more Tranquil, and your mind will be more Creative.


Take care,

Fong Fong


To Mimi:

Mimi:
QUOTE"I think you are mistaken again. I'm a Buddhist, not a Tibetan person. I would like to see the Tibetan people freed from Chinese oppression."
------------
Well Mimi, for you is an oppression because you're brainwashed with all western propaganda, I'm not surprise to see your kind that bashing China. And you can keep dreaming, because that not gonna change anything
----
Quote"How about explaining the ethics of abducting Gendun Choekyi Nyima, the real Panchen Lama, the second highest religios leader of the Tibetans, who was abducted by the Chinese in 1995, when he was only six years old. Has the government of China murdered him, too? "
------
Don't speculate, if you dont have any prove then you're wost than those who had committed the crime. I'm very suprise you said that you're Buddhist, if you can imagine thing like that maybe you had committe that kind of atrocity by yourself.
----------
Quote" Why do the Chinese feel that everyone must think exactly like the party line? This of course, will never happen. The Chinese government is a bunch of misguided control freaks!
----------
Because you're not Chinese, you will never know of what or how we think, maybe is about time that you convert yourself into Chinese.

About Chinese goverment, that you're wrong again? Most Chinese forumner are from western world, we have learned with fustration and watched anger on how westerners bashed China & chinese peoples, then with time, I believe we had develop "body defense mecanism..haha!!" to counter those toke pleasure to bash chinese people.

Most Chineses in western world are well educated, we know very well what is propaganda and what is not. only your kinds are still living in illusions that Chinese peoples are brainwashed but CCP party line, how pathetic.

Mimi:

I think you are mistaken again. I'm a Buddhist, not a Tibetan person. I would like to see the Tibetan people freed from Chinese oppression.

How about explaining the ethics of abducting Gendun Choekyi Nyima, the real Panchen Lama, the second highest religios leader of the Tibetans, who was abducted by the Chinese in 1995, when he was only six years old. Has the government of China murdered him, too?

Why do the Chinese feel that everyone must think exactly like the party line? This of course, will never happen. The Chinese government is a bunch of misguided control freaks!

Me, the To Mimi:

Mimi:
The "To Mimi" person's ignorance of Tibetan Buddhism and the Dalai Lama is monumental.

LMAO. Why do I need to care of Tibetan Buddhism and the Dalai Lama after you all oversea tibetans had done to China.

only low IQ such as yourself still believe that you can use Westerners nations to serve your independant purpose. And remeber this, they're using you and not the other way around.

Fong Fong:

Some people in the U.S. are caught up in the historical paradox - nationalism in the world that is globalized. It can no longer just be in the national interest when the world is globalized. Leaders everywhere have to think outside the box - think in terms of global interest first, then national interest, then local interest, finally personal interest.


No one is enlightened because when one paradox is mastered, there emerges another one. This is why we do not give up on the pursuit of enlightenment.

good job fong fong:

Unfortunately, the US will never stop invading other countries. American are still proud to able to kill any body using any excuse, democracy, human rights, Tibet, and all the propaganda and lies.

The next is Iran.

after Iran, the list goes on...

By the way, don't call others "unenlightened". This kind of thinking is the worst part of the every religion, believing their belif is the only and the best, and others need to be saved.very ugly indeed. Save yourself.

Fong Fong:

To the unenlightened,

The paradox is when the weak party rises up, it does not lessen the strength of the stronger party; instead it enlarges the room for everyone. Resolve this paradox in your mind, then your mind will rise to a higher level of thinking.


Take care,

Fong Fong

To "higher thinking" people:

http://www.ballandclaw.com/stamps/Originals/uschina.jpg

Stamp issued by United State in 1937.
Map of China. President Lincoln.

Since China invaded Tibet in 1950, then where is Tibet?

If you cannot find Tibet outside China, you better shut up.

If you can find a "Tibet" outside China, go ahead, make your own country. No Chinese will agaist you.

Good luck fighting a war with India.

to mimi:

Obvious if Dalai lama can do what he says, he already return to China. He was one of China's top leaders for 9 years. He can be one again.

But politics is very dirty. Unless He is lying, he is hijacked by his followers.

Stop propaganda, give up the idea of independence, give up the illusion of "greater Tibet", it is very likely, once again, Tibetan Buddhism will be dominant in China.

Not now.

to Freelance: :

Please, don't make me laugh. The history is not created by CCP. History is history. Make no mistake, the whole world, maybe except Nazis Japan in 1940s, accept that Tibet has , and is part of China. Go check any map published before CCP came to power in 1949, good luck you will find any that would suggest Tibet is independent.

Again, you are torturing yourself for believing your own "history".

Higher thinking?

you got to be kidding.

Ram:

I totally agree with the above comment on Kashmir. How is the situation in Kashmir not different from Kosovo? Why was the plebiscite as promised by India never held? Isn't it a bit hypocritical for India to claim sympathy for Tibetans, yet to withhold a plebiscite in Kashmir?

Mimi:

The "To Mimi" person's ignorance of Tibetan Buddhism and the Dalai Lama is monumental.

To Mimi:

Mimi:
Tibetan Buddhism teaches that nothing good can come of doing something bad. One cannot escape the laws of karma. Simply put, "What goes around, comes around." To my Chinese critics, please admit that the murders of hundred of thousands of devout Tibetan Buddhists by the Chinese, just because the victims were Tibetan Buddhists, cannot be justified. Nor can stealing their land and destroying their temples, way of life, and environment. China's aggression in invading and occupying Tibet is a disgrace to the human race. Do not be surprised if China wants to take over your country next.
--------------------
you can keep your religion moral for yourself, noone give a sh**t about the law of Karma. We admit to put down all rebellions and separatists regardless of Chineses or Tibetans. As for Tibet concern, it has been part of China, there is nothing to be shamed of. And you can try to flame to get symphaty from others nations, but I dont think they will give a sh**t for your lame cause.


--
Also, everyone should realize that there are many different Buddhist religions. Sanctioned Chinese Buddhism is not the same as that which is practiced in Tibet. For example, in Tibet, the Dalai Lama is the reincarnation of a Buddha, and the Chinese imprison and torture people simply for having a picture of the Dalai Lama.
--
Dalai Lama is the reincarnation of a Buddha???
You gotta be kidding me, c'mon man get real.

---
The Chinese apparently have no shame. Mahatma Ghandi said that nonviolence only works with people who have a sense of shame. The Chinese want the minerals from Tibet so badly, they will do anything for them: murder, lie, steal.
---
there is no shame to traite sepratists with what stick, carrots are only for peacefull Tibetans in Tibet. And Please don't try to play innocent with me, Tibetans have tried to use violent against PLA army but they had failed miserably.

And as for Mineral exploitation, China will make Tibet the Mighty new city, it will be better, more sophisticate than Butan and surrounding countries, by The time you go back to China, "if you're lucky enought", you will see that no Tibetans in China will accept you as their peers.
you're nothing else than a second class citizens to them.

Fong Fong:

Commentator Mimi,

You wrote: "Also, everyone should realize that there are many different Buddhist religions. Sanctioned Chinese Buddhism is not the same as that which is practiced in Tibet. For example, in Tibet, the Dalai Lama is the reincarnation of a Buddha, and the Chinese imprison and torture people simply for having a picture of the Dalai Lama."


Just as there are many different Buddhist religions, there are many different types of Chinese people in China. Like people everywhere in the world, some are enlightened, yet some are caught up in a historical paradox - nationalism in a globalized world - that they cannot rise to a higher level of thinking.


Take care,

Fong Fong


I was following this argument for a while and felt bored to respond to my Chinese brothers and sisters. I have been doing the same argument from BBC to any forum where topics regarding Tibet always hit the very core of Chinese brethrens' heart.

I just want to tell Chinese brothers here,

You don't have to force people to believe in the history that CCP created after the invasion of Tibet. History will be history and no one can change it. Even if His Holiness the Dalai Lama declares "Tibet has been an integral part of Chinese nation even before the formation of first cell on this earth...", it is just a statement and nothing will change the historical reality. Therefore, it is good for the Chinese to accept the "past", don't impose your view on Tibetans. I myself has been indoctrinated with those false history which entirely contradict Tibetan history and what my parents(They are still in Tibet..) says.

The other dangerous thing is, many Chinese simply don't understand Tibet and Tibetan poeople. They simply exert power or impose their views onto the Tibetans. I very much agree a history professor who wrote an article named "Tibet, is China's blind spot". I really agreed with it. When come to the questions of Tibet, Chinese usually retreat back to the modernization and economic prosperity. Of course "salavery, barbarian, bark society, retarded.." so on and so forth are the Chinese official and public's perception of Tibet and Tibetan people. Because of ignorance, many Chinese attach Tibet issue with "Dalai Lama" and make TIbet issue as "his personal issue". It is true, "Dalai Lama" is our "emperor, king, vajra master, compassion of Buddha, eminent Geshe(buddhist scholar), visionary, savior of present and future, guidiance of the nation..." But the issue will not go away because the problem is the "historical problem faced by entire Tibetan nation". As long as the problem is not solved, with advancement of more economic prosperity and more openness in China, Tibetans will exert their rights and eventually fight for what they deserve.

If you really want to prove Tibet is part of China and Tibetans inside Tibet are happy and want to forget the past, I simply suggest my Chinese brethrens do more research how inside Tibetans reacted since the invasion of Tibet. Most of the demonstrations occurred after 1980, which is after Deng's open door policy. Recently, Tibetans officials in Tibet are more exertive and showing dissatisfaction in public...

So, these examples simply proves that Tibet problem will be there and need to be addressed with fairness, otherwise, Chinese will find their theory of "Disappearance of Tibet after Dalai Lama" be wrong.

Freelance

Just_curious:

The question that intrigues me is probably regarding news on the Chinese government filtering out information regarding the Dalai Lama from the internet? I'm guessing from the 'name' entered that most of the people who are strongly against this article are chinese. It just seems somewhat unconvincing to critisize people who have access to information from both sides, from the Chinese's perspective and from the Dalai Lama and Tibetans' perspective (all the while). (assuming that western did not become too jealous about China's growth and "secretly" filter out information from China or the other way round may be the answer to my question?)
I think China indeed brought economic advancement to Tibet but religion/human rights suppression do exist as well.
I personally strongly hope that this issue can be resolved in the near future. :)

Mimi:

Tibetan Buddhism teaches that nothing good can come of doing something bad. One cannot escape the laws of karma. Simply put, "What goes around, comes around." To my Chinese critics, please admit that the murders of hundred of thousands of devout Tibetan Buddhists by the Chinese, just because the victims were Tibetan Buddhists, cannot be justified. Nor can stealing their land and destroying their temples, way of life, and environment. China's aggression in invading and occupying Tibet is a disgrace to the human race. Do not be surprised if China wants to take over your country next.

Also, everyone should realize that there are many different Buddhist religions. Sanctioned Chinese Buddhism is not the same as that which is practiced in Tibet. For example, in Tibet, the Dalai Lama is the reincarnation of a Buddha, and the Chinese imprison and torture people simply for having a picture of the Dalai Lama.

The Chinese apparently have no shame. Mahatma Ghandi said that nonviolence only works with people who have a sense of shame. The Chinese want the minerals from Tibet so badly, they will do anything for them: murder, lie, steal.

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To: >>>>


USE YOUR (((H.U.E.R.I.S.T.I.C.S))) NOT RELIGION
If you want to experience H.u.m.a.n.R.i.g.h.t.s. AGAINST Human WRONG(s) as justice for ALL.

Grandma-SUN, Space-Ship-MotherEarth, SisterMOON, BrotherMARS et al will also one day go POOF-TIME. (Those of you who read my TIME (not clock knowledge) Philosophy WILL KNOW that: They will not be fore-ever either. Fate will also fall upon GrandPa-MilkwayGALAXY too. :-('

My Religion is "T.R.A.N.S.F.I.N.I.T.Y" (IT) IN YOU& You in IT (A NOT He or She G-d) EQUALS R.E.A.L.I.T.Y! SO Here LIFE IS A MIRACLE and there is Nothing-Zero Sin or sinfull about SPACEFORTHing out of the MAGMA-TRICULATION, Contrary to ALL those Pre-Apocalyptic faiths or belief SYSTEMS.

Thus: The FIVE-Major Religions; ((((( Jew,Christian,Islam) (Hindu/Buddah ))))))

will all DIE and go POOF via ECLAT's TIME-Machine (thee Ying n Yang between the two points of a universal HEART BEAT, thus ushering a new age of FAITH EXCHANGING for a HEALING of the NATIONS, WORLD PEACE & HAPPYNESS, LOng Long LIFE & CASHLESS SOCIETY. This is your or their APOCALYPSE Now towards a NEW SONG for a NEWAGE with a REALITY RELIGION (Which is what this is all about).

An Apocalypse for Correction of SIN, is NOW. And the Forests of the Humates MIND is understanding the PHOTONS more clearly like going FROM> Caterpillar >TO: Butterfly & ?>

Oh, Forgot: Under C.O.M.M.U.N.I.S.M., especially the 5 major ones mentioned above here, considers them "ENEMY of THE PEOPLES"! Or as Karl Mark correctly taught: "Religion Is The O.P.I.U.M. Of THE PEOPLE. (Remember how addicted ti heroin they was & the trade of it was back not long ago.

I believe that TIBET-ians et al are not dealing with a "Paper Tiger" anymore. So the SOLUTION to all this (military, Gov, Econom, Politic, Intellect, Socyity, & Religious) as POLUTION, is EVOLUTION, doing its Natural thing in the course of Earths journey at 1/2 a Million Miles an Hour!

Communisim, as just another IDIOLOGY that also has its POOF-TIME is D.E.A.D.! The Butterfly is now transformed to S.O.C.I.A.L.ism! And the "Dalai Lama Folks & Co." can pack bags and go to other Mountains.

But My Prophet Albert Einstein (Liked Buddhism the best & Hindi too) gave us many "Heuristic gems". And One or two needs mention for ALL the World To See (Today we think Globally & ACT Locally - not the otherway round)), he said, " Science W/out Religion is Blind, Religion W/out Science is Lame" [Similar]. AND "people who share, such as I et al, that intimacy with a "COSMIC FEELING" can one have such a Religion experience with Nature same as G-d.." [Similar].

As I see it, I'm sorry for the honesty, but MR. Dalai Lama, Co., & GANG in disquise are loosing Oxygen faster than can be replaced.

Praise ECLAT. Let There Be PHOTONs.

Note: I do not believe in the Big Bang 1st "Theory" but I sure as hell believe that it is the "Big-Flash" 1st and then the Bang (remnents of Vibrations in you, me, pet, rock, ALL). Nothing is External to the Almighty. We are in-Evolved via IT's Eternity Avoiding Lonliness in All things.

Remember: Nature does-Not Break ITSELF own LAWS.
The U.N.I.V.E.R.S.E. is MY CONSTITUTION and the LAWS of IT's NATURE are the "Causes" of IT.

Now "This is TRUTH & LOVE indeed" the CREATER of the COSMIC HOLY HEART BEAT and ITs SPARK of ENLIGHTMENT..........

PEACE-LOVE-ROCKnROLL. Enjoy this voyage the best you can (Survival of fittest machine) and R.E.M.E.M.B.E.R: "We Never Die!" SHOLOM Dalai Lama et al! :-)

attached is some MANNA from myself as GIFT TO ALL ManKind.


SECRET: The "DUE-TO-BE" is where ECLAT contemplates WHAT TO DO NEXT. All this mysterious work takes place in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Dimension. This place is EXCLUSIVE TO G-D ITSELF.

Now, there is this 5th Dimension and here is the very place or spot where our known "Visible Light Spectrum" emanates from. And this is also the very INTERFACE of which and where Lord G-d ITSELF, bridges our REALITY together of IT through us.

Important: IT is also here, the now & the thereafter, where LIFE & Birth is ITSELF released into TRANSFINITY ITSELF. And where you BIOFINITE Death Returns for another round of MIRACLE via the DUE TO BE MACHINE!
You see? WE NEVER DIE. Just be good on Space-Ship Momma Earth, O.K.? Huggys N Kisses To All The Brothers N Da Sisters! ENJOY LIFE!

Hence, We & the Microbial do coexist and of course we are BORN, LIVE & DIE as Carbon Life-Forms, only in the 6th, 7th, 8th & 9th dimensions NOW! This is your NEW PHILOSOPHY. Praise THE LORD! Eeeee Haaaa. Holy No Man. :-).

“life is a Miracle & there is Zero Sin about being born in IT. Did You know, There is Life in Light?

(((((((( WE NEVER DIE ))))))) Just be Good In This LIFE FORM. PEACE/LOVE/ROKNROLL.

Life Is Beautuful Indeed. There is infinate Hope
and OIL will runout before Hope does. See What I see Me Me MACHINE (Like Laundry). :=))



To Mimi:

"Mimi:
The Chinese are barbarians, murderers of hundreds of thousands of Tibetan people. They have no respect for other people and religions. They want to destroy Buddhism, and think it's fine for them to destroy the unique Tibetan culture, and impoverish Tibetans so that now the Potala is surrounded by pandhandlers and prostitutes. Chinese steal Tibetan homes and land. China is plundering Tibet's rich pristine environment, which is the spiritual home of Tibetan Buddhist dieties. "

-----------------------
I dont know which planete you came from, I advise
to go to China communist brainwasher camp to bring you back to reallity. Remember this: it's proved that if Chinese are bad, then you're wost.

-----------------------
quote "The Chinese should be removed forcibly from Tibet by UN troops. Personally, I think the Chinese peole should be deprogrammed from their own racist cult. "

---------------------
Dont make an empty word, if you have gut, go to fight PLA in battlefield. Don't use innocent people to fight for your bad cause.

-----------------------
quote" Yes, the US killed native Americans and took their land, but this doesn't mean that this makes it OK for China to do the same thing today. People should be more enlightened than that. "

-----------------------
Mimi, you're either coward or double standard when come to U.S issue, what Americain did mass murder it native people is obviously 'ok' for you, you just want to bypass this issue

------
quote" Perhaps the Chinese are poisoning themselves with their pollution and massive accumulation of bad karma from murdering so many beings so much more enlightened than themselves"

----------
What a crap talk, bad Karma???
if you're Tibetan, one piece advise for you: Be with us or against us,there is no alternative solution. As for Dalai Lama, he will never allowed to step into China, he can keep dream of independant tibet.

joke:

mimi is a racist. For her, mouth of trains is to please herself. However, what she talk is indeed the exact propaganda in the west's media.

Nothing can help. But who cares. China is improving every single day. You guys are just jealous. Still, some facts may help:
1. Buddhism is booming in China, because it is Chinese native (from India, but here for thousand years) religion. It is western religions see power-hungry pope and CCP are still fighting.
2. Today which country dare to invade China? In your dream?
3. As long as Tibetan Chinese enjoy the same, or better status compared to Han Chinese, they should not complain too much. China itself is still poor, but that will change in the next 20 years. So will Tibetan. When Tibetan Chinese live a better life and speak Tibetan, and Tibetan in the western countries cannot even speak Tibetan, who will laugh?
I am always confusing why will the west afraid of, jealous about today's China? I guess they are all investors, and they all look at the future.

Mimi:

The Chinese are barbarians, murderers of hundreds of thousands of Tibetan people. They have no respect for other people and religions. They want to destroy Buddhism, and think it's fine for them to destroy the unique Tibetan culture, and impoverish Tibetans so that now the Potala is surrounded by pandhandlers and prostitutes. Chinese steal Tibetan homes and land. China is plundering Tibet's rich pristine environment, which is the spiritual home of Tibetan Buddhist dieties.

The Chinese should be removed forcibly from Tibet by UN troops. Personally, I think the Chinese peole should be deprogrammed from their own racist cult.

Yes, the US killed native Americans and took their land, but this doesn't mean that this makes it OK for China to do the same thing today. People should be more enlightened than that.

Perhaps the Chinese are poisoning themselves with their pollution and massive accumulation of bad karma from murdering so many beings so much more enlightened than themselves.

to don:

The problem is not freedom to think or not. The problem is you never have facts to think, discuss when it is not your business. How many people will actually read one or two books about Tibet from different perspective?
None.
All you got is all the propaganda you can get from the media, in less than 100 words.
You may ask: business or human rights?
You never ask, what if Dalai lama is a separatist?
You ever know what happen in Tibet in 1911, When Dalai lama claimed tibet independent from China?
You ever know the US did not acknowledge it, and Nazi Japan did?


I'd advise those Chinese readers of this to contemplate this awhile, and perhaps you might understand where most of humanity is coming from. And lastly, yes, there exists in the west strong propensities of brainwashing, especially in the media, but we also have the freedom to think about what we're being told, discuss it with friends and associates, and disagree if we see fit without having to worry about automatic big brother consequenses.

to don:

Read more history about Tibet and you will know, unless you are a racist, who tell you a country should only have one culture, history and language?
In case you are really extremely ignorant, the "Chinese" the west came to know in 1800, is not Chinese at all, by your definition. The emperor is a Manchu. Manchurian Chinese, Mongolian Chinese and Tibetan Chinese enjoy higher class status for hundreds of years in China before 1911.
Again, I don't understand how American soldiers can feel no shame at all: 700,000 Iraqis died directly because of American occupation, and millions more injured.
You guys really have guts to talk about Chinese for shooting illegals. In what country kid will be killed by waving his wallet right before his home?

dalai lama is a communist:

interesting, if not for mao, Dalai lama is a communist now.
Norbu, if you hold those propaganda as facts, you life is doomed. Your people held Dalai lama as hostage so he can not return.

Dalai lama made a mistake in 1990 when he thought China was going to collaps. He is too old to make another mistake.

When he dies, your cause dies too. Threaten to use violence? You will be kicked out from India!

Don M:

To Annie Wang & commentaries:

The "Chinese Majority" and their supporters have trouble not only understanding His Holiness but the concepts of history and of human compassion as well. I have the perspective of the "an american soldier" above, being a veteran of Vietnam; usually I would pass this by, but some of the above comments are just too much not to respond to.

Tibet is not an integral part of China and never was. The culture, history and language are distinctly different for one thing. Tibet is of course occupied by China, as in the past vast sections of western China were occupied by Tibet. And yes, europeans "invaded" a land occupied by locals who had in their turn generations earlier invaded the previous group of locals. As has been pointed out, they now enjoy a level of autonomy the "Central Empire" doesn't have the courage or decency to grant.

The most important thing here is that the Chinese are brutally and arrogantly eliminating the unique Tibetan culture, people and religion. Honest people unafraid of the Chinese economical clout would call this genocide. This horror is compounded by the fact that Tibet holds a unique spiritual significance that is part of the world's heritage: only barbarians would destroy Tibet and the world should "adamantly encourage" the Central Empire to rise to the civility they once had centuries ago.

Of all the above I have to say the comment by "climbers" above amazed me the most. Is that an apology for the Chinese soldiers, who because "that accident happened in the high mountains that only professionals can reach, and men in uniform may not so good at shooting in that condition?" They should have been able to kill ten more women and children?

I'd advise those Chinese readers of this to contemplate this awhile, and perhaps you might understand where most of humanity is coming from. And lastly, yes, there exists in the west strong propensities of brainwashing, especially in the media, but we also have the freedom to think about what we're being told, discuss it with friends and associates, and disagree if we see fit without having to worry about automatic big brother consequenses.

We pray for you.

NORBU DHONDUP1:

Communist China is a lying thief ignorant government.

Tibet is under the tyranny of communist chinese.

Ajay jain, tibet was independent for many centuries with 50 or so kings and the 14 dalai lamas, get your facts right sir.

Tibetan monks and nuns are tortured and put into prisons.

Falung gong practitiones are not able to practices freely.

Inner mongolia is occupied by communist china.

east turkistan land of muslim ughyurs is under illegal chinese occupation. There are revolts on and off but no one hears it on TV because Chinese govt. owns the media.

Tibetan buddhist masters such as 11 year old Panchen Lama are imprisoned for doing nothing.

Christians practices religion while in hiding.


Communist China should not be given the right to host the olympics. It is an insult to millions of people who have been hurt.

NORBU DHONDUP:


History of Tibet - Tibet was ilegally occupied by Communist China under the leadership of Mao Tsetung. They killed 1.3 million innocent tibetans, destroyed over 6500 ancient monasteries, stole the riches of the landlords and created mass scale unemployment for the serfs that worked under the landlords. Communist China did not give employment either. This sure was a peaceful liberation of Tibet. Communist China created a whole new history book for Tibet which it uses to fool the 1 billion people who are growing corn and eating leather in the suburbs of China.

The idea of feudalism was widespread throughout Asia, compared to China and India and other countries Tibet had very minimal due to strong religious buddhist influence.


WAY TO GO COMMUNIST CHINA, YOU HAVE FOOLED THE WHOLE WORLD ONCE AGAIN BY BEING ABLE TO HOST THE OLYMPICS, YOU DID IT AGAIN LIKE BRITNEY SPEARS.

EVENTUALLY YOUR ENDING WILL BE A DISGRACE, THIS IS WHERE DISHONESTY EVENTUALLY RESIDES. GOD, COMMUNIST CHINA IS SO DAMN IGNORANT.

Free Tibet:

Mr.Fong Fong. In tibetan fong fong means. what ever your posses,i mean your wealth or attitude what ever, is scatered here and their. Your attitude is the same Fong Fong.if you don't beleave me ask any tibetans,

CKS:

Annie Wang:

I thought you're going to write something deeper about the Tibetans or how the chinese majority view the Tibetan issues. It turns out, as also noticed by one other commentator, this is a self-serving article to make your more palatable to the 'mainstream' american.

To everyone else:
Better spend your time reading the beautiful classics (chinese, european, american,....) rather than spending some more time discussing Ms. Wang's article.

Vishnu:

The same issue applies to Kashmir as well. How can India, a nation that struggled for self-government from an occupier, currently occupy Kashmir and thwart the aspiration of the peope there? It's really sad but a common phenomenon that those who were once oppressed, upon seizing power, seeks to oppress others. It can be said that the largest democratic country in the world may be the least democratic, given the human rights abuses committed there. I wish that leaders of nation will realize some day that well-being of humanity is not defined by the size of one's territory but by the economic well-being of all people.

Linda:

Nee Howe:Linda

The thoughtfulness of most contributors to this dialogue is valuable. The most recent speaker seems to represent a 'secular' point of view, but actually there is something of a primitive religious nature in demonizing the other. It doesn't help people to think about global problems when you say 'down with' a country or people. This kind of speech is damaging. Persia is an ancient culture with roots at the beginning of human civilization. Iran is a troubled nation. When governments feel that they have their backs to the wall, then bad things can happen. Now there is a great deal of tension between Iran and Russia and Iran and the UN. Let's hope our diplomats can avoid the trap of demonizing the Iranian people.

Let's return to the useful dialogue about China and Tibet.

climbers:

The mountain shooting was tragic. But that accident happened in the high mountains that only professionals can reach, and men in uniform may not so good at shooting in that condition.

I do confused by this story, considering these Tibetan may pay snakehead to illegally cross the border. This year, 40 million Chinese will travel in foreign countries. The only limitation Chinese face today to cross the border is visa.

Why Tibetan Chinese want to cross the border illegally in high mountains?
Why not Western countries simply issue visa to any tibetans?
is it because if they cross the border comfortably and legally, they won't get asylum?

At least tell those Tibetan to cross border like North Korean do in China: try different provinces. For example, you don't need visa to get into Burma. Since Tibetan are Chinese, they will have no risk unlike the Korean.

to larry:

It is so funny that so many westerners always thought they know the "truth" and "facts" of China and we Chinese don't know our own story.

It is perfectly OK to do that to please yourselves as long as you talk to your fellow westerners.

Just don't talk to Chinese to expose your ignorance. We are polite, but we laugh at you later on.

Larry:

The Chinese guy probably thought he met another impatient westerner too. So indoctrinated by the western media.

Also, I suspect you actually didn't get what he said (or because of his limited English). China's official line is that the Tibet society was serfdom system when China liberated Tibet, but never does China claim Tibetans are barbarians. Tibet is not always part of China, but it is effectively under China's control for hundreds of years except during turbulent Sino-Japanese war and Chinese civil war.

" recently i met a chinese biologist working in bern,switzerland. he told me that he is a member of the communist party. for me he was totally so much indoctrinated by the party that he had nothing in his enclosed brain except that tibetans are barbarians and that china liberated tibet and that tibet was always a part of china. after certain time he became more and more impatient with me and for me it was clear ..... he is just another impatient chinese!!!!! what else..."

Fong Fong:

Commentator CCT,

You wrote: "However, this has *nothing* to do with the Dalai Lama and his politics. I do not believe that the Dalai Lama has "Chinese interests" in mind with any of his policies. His goals are targeted for 0.5% of the Chinese population only. I have zero sympathy for that attitude and agenda."


It is important to make a distinction between the thoughts of Dalai Lama and that of his so-called followers. For Dalai Lama, his interest and agenda are enlightenment for *all sentient beings*. Unfortunately, the so-called followers of Dalai Lama have much narrower interests and agenda.


Take care,

Fong Fong


i am glad there annie has spoken the truth after her own discovery of the plight of the tibetans. recently i met a chinese biologist working in bern,switzerland. he told me that he is a member of the communist party. for me he was totally so much indoctrinated by the party that he had nothing in his enclosed brain except that tibetans are barbarians and that china liberated tibet and that tibet was always a part of china. after certain time he became more and more impatient with me and for me it was clear ..... he is just another impatient chinese!!!!! what else...

Felix Drost, Amsterdam NL:

A few weeks ago a party of climbers in the Himalayas came across a band of unarmed Tibetan refugees who were being hunted by Chinese border troops. These troops shot and killed a 15 and a 17 year old members of the Tibetan group. These are not terrorists or seperatists but groups of people on a perilous journey to Nepal, India or Bhutan to escape repression in China.

Chinese border troops shoot with intent to kill unarmed children: that single incident illustrates a brutal mindset behind China's occupation of Tibet. Journalists and human rights organisations aren't allowed into the area so the scale of repression remains difficult to quantify.

At this point in time the Tibetan people are repressed; the American Indians at this moment in time are free. In fact most of them are more free than the average non-Native American since many tribes have the autonomy to set up casinos in states where legal gambling is otherwise not allowed.

The view that Americans should be quiet on this issue because of the things their ancestors did in the past is hypocritical, especially when it's an attempt to silence the expression of moral concerns that have been shaped by the American experience. Today African Americans run for President and Native Americans run casinos. When the Dalai Lama can run for President of China and his people can set up casinos in Macau is when the Chinese will be our brothers.

Larry:

I agree my comparison is a bit awkward.There was no US when European set their foot on North America. But Tibet was already a Chinese territory for quite some time (from Qing Dynasty if no earlier). The communist China won civil war and then took over Tibet. The communist government did so because it regards the region as part of Chinese territory under the defeated nationalist government (republic of China). Otherwise it is hard to understand why communist China sending troop to Tibet while fighting the powerful US forces in the Korea war.

"It is not fair to compare Tibetan to aboriginals.There was no "China" invading Tibet in 1951.It was "red China" or "communist China" invaded Tibet in 1951, Unless you believe there is no "China" before 1949."

maywebekind:

All we stated here will not change a reality. One can be in jail for said what they think and feel ie. TIANANMEN SQUARE 82. All people in power in the world is control or rule and will kill in other stay in power. What is the point? Human is one of the most dangerous animal. NOT Kill for eating, but kill to get power/ruling/ controling/ brainwashing.

CCT:

Annie,

I hope you understand that your pursuit of "respect" from the American mainstream puts into question how much the Chinese should trust your opinion. Are you sure you didn't write this column just in order to get more respect from the mainstream?

I agree with you that China needs better understanding of minority rights. For example, racial discrimination in hiring/government is very common. This should be resolved. On the plus side, China has far better affirmative action policies than the United States.

However, this has *nothing* to do with the Dalai Lama and his politics. I do not believe that the Dalai Lama has "Chinese interests" in mind with any of his policies. His goals are targeted for 0.5% of the Chinese population only. I have zero sympathy for that attitude and agenda.

The above post just reminds me that when you speak from the point of view of a hyphenated-American, you're placing Chinese interests in second place.

YAk:

unless you think yourself a Chinese Tibetan, you will never free. I don't believe today's Chinese gov has any interest in you unless you define religion=Dalai Lama, free=independence.
why you said you had no right to use your own language? enlighten me please.

to Ajay Jain:

Because Tibet illegally claimed independence in 1911 from China, and nobody accepted it, except Nazis maybe.

Tibet was invaded by Red China and has since been illegilly occupied

yak:

I am a Tibetan inner Tibet, I agree Miss Wang`s momments and views, we know Chinese are more free to talk on things what they faced, and they are free to use their own language, learn culture. But in Tibet it is really a risk to talk about on our own situations, even we have not right to use our own language, believe our own religion. Now what we need is free and not money.

Norbu Dhondup:

H.H. the Dalai Lama wants genuine autonomy for Tibet. At this time China has declared that only a fraction of Tibet can be called Autonomous region. The most fertile and mineral rich locations of amdo and kham cannot be considered a part of tibet autonomous region.

Needleslly to say Communist China is an ignorant lying thief government that can never cease to lie.

Ajay Jain:

Tibet was invaded by Red China and has since been illegilly occupied. For all practical purposes it has become and will remain an integral PART of China. Dalai Lama will probably die in exile in India. Can the US do anything or for that matter will India ever do anything. No. Might is RIGHT!

Annie Wang:

I do believe China has no confident to let Dalai Lama return to China.
While you obviously forgot the history, you are also ignorant of the dirty politics and the reality. Dalai lama is asking a united Tibet inside China as a condition to return to China, and this "united Tibet", a historical Tibet disappeared thousand years ago, is 2 times bigger than today's Tibet.
His word is beautiful, but the reality and the politics is alway dirty.

to larry:

It is not fair to compare Tibetan to aboriginals.There was no "China" invading Tibet in 1951.It was "red China" or "communist China" invaded Tibet in 1951, Unless you believe there is no "China" before 1949.

woodoo:

"An American Soldier quote
the Chinese illegally invaded Tibet and executed and persecuted thousands of innocent, peaceful Tibetans, included peaceful monks. Red China spread propaganda to as many people as it could reach so that no one would realize what a vicious attack had been perpetrated"

Excuse me Mr. Americain soldier, I advise you to look into the mirror and Check your history book before make any comments on other's busniess. your gorvernment had illegally invaded America and wiped out the native people, what you have to say about that?

to an American soldier:

I am sorry but when you said "the Chinese illegally invaded Tibet and executed and persecuted thousands of innocent, peaceful Tibetans, included peaceful monks. ..."
you and your American friends have been brainwashed for years.
U.S. government has done little to help because it knew Tibet has been part of China, and the "Chinese" legally "invaded" Tibet in 1950s in the civil war against KMT. U.S. government however, indeed trained Tibetan terrorists carried on attacks in China for decades.
If you think slaughtering 700,000 iraqis, and counting, is not enough, you are simply a pathetic soul.

Larry:

Hi,an American soldier
It's ridiculous to talk about legality of Tibet. By the same standard, US illegally invaded north America and took the land from aboriginals and killed most of them.
Another problem is that propaganda exists not only in China, it is in the US too. When you talk about brainwash, how do you know you are not brainwashed already? The other possibility is that you have been brainwashed, so you don't get the problem of Tibet.

"the Chinese illegally invaded Tibet and executed and persecuted thousands of innocent, peaceful Tibetans, included peaceful monks. "

Mr. Noah:

I am convinced that there is no such thing as a "Han Chinese" ethnic group.

For example, people from the northeast of China (Manchuria) look much different than people from the southeast (Canton), and speak a very different language. People from Dalian are typically tall and light-skinned and speak Mandarin, while people from Guangzhou are typically short and dark-skinned and speak a mix of Mandarin and Cantonese. These don't seem like the same ethnic group to me!

My guess is that the idea of a single "Han Chinese" ethnic group was made up by Chinese rulers in order to keep the country unified. Seems to have worked pretty well too.

An American Soldier:

the Chinese illegally invaded Tibet and executed and persecuted thousands of innocent, peaceful Tibetans, included peaceful monks. Red China spread propaganda to as many people as it could reach so that no one would realize what a vicious attack had been perpetrated.

The Chinese don't get the Dalai Lama because they have been brainwashed for years as to what he taught. Unbelievably, Chairman Mao spread propaganda about a "tyrannical" ruling Dalai Lama; and that the Chinese peaceful entered Tibet. These two points could not have been farther from the truth.

So as an American, I am appalled and disgusted that the Dalai Lama has not returned to Tibet; and also that the U.S. government has done little to help.

I served a tour in Iraq in 2004. I would much rather have served a tour in Tibet serving the peaceful Tibetans and liberating them from the illegal Chinese rule. We should have been there in the late 1940s to help but we failed them.

For that I am truly sorry and I actually feel pain for the Tibetan people.

tioedong:

sorry, but your statistics are wrong. Minorities make up 7% of China. And even "HAN" Chinese implies unity, wheras overseas Chinese tend to speak Cantonese.

The problems of indigenous peoples are complex, but the problem with Tibet is that they were NOT HAN but Tibetan; by the invasion, many Tibetans fled to India, and monasteries were persecuted, and ethnic HAN chinese resettled there.

Now, you could argue that Americans, who stole their land from our own indigenous people, should not complain about China; similar arguments could be made about the Zulus in South Africa, the Muslims in India, the ScotsIrish in Northern Ireland, and the Tagalog Filipinos in Mindanao.

Personally, I think bygones should be bygones, but until the Buddhists are allowed freedom of religion and the Tibetans allowed to learn their own culture, you will have a problem. Many American's ancestors fled to the US to worship freely, including my own.

How you identify yourself:

Hi Annie ,
If you identify yourself as a human being first, you will realize you are a member of the 'mainstream' but not a minority alien.

Fong Fong:


Ms. Wang,

While I again agree with your vision - Dalai Lama's teachings and wisdom freely discussed in China - I have to disagree with something that you said:
"As a Chinese-American, I realized how much the feeling of being respected by mainstream America meant to me." Respect means respecting yourself. Once you have self-respect, it does NOT matter that the majority disrespects you. A person's dignity is NOT lessened because the mainstream does not respect you. I am sure this is what Dalai Lama would tell you as well.

Take care,

Fong Fong

Sun Tzu:

Annie, you're just a banana, if you know nothing about the nuclear, please don't hold nuclear trigger, same apply to politic.

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