to tenor:

i know how you feel, i tell chinese people that i'm taiwanese/korean and they said "oh, you chinese that not real"

pssh. it's sad.

This piece was very good for my study on race and ethnicity in international relations. Thank you.

quote
---
In China-Tibet, it is attacked... Who knows, maybe it'll only take 500 years for Beijing to ease up and allow these people to celebrate their cultures.
---

What are you smoking? I advise you to take a plane and go visiting Tibet, you will have different opinion once you come back. It's typical for westerners to think that what they have done to America native people that China will do same as them.

This is such an old discussion, I've grown bored trying to read all of these comments, so I've skipped down to the bottom.......

1. Somebody up near the middle of the comments mentioned that China was going to pour such and such amount of money into Tibet with only such and such amount of Tibetans inside Tibet.

Well, I'm sorry to say that the population of Tibet is 3 to 1 Chinese to Tibetan (at least, that's an old number... I'm sure it's grown). So really, it's not purely the Tibetans that Beijing is supporting with that money--it's their own expanding population.

2. To Mimi: Tsering Shakya is a great scholar on the Tibetan situation. As are Melvyn Goldstein and Dawa Norbu, if you are interested in learning more. Goldstein and Norbu both take on much of the history predating the 1950-1 invasion.

3. People have been attacking the US for European expansion in the 1500s and somehow drawing some sort of parallel universe off to the side which makes it somehow okay for the Chinese to thus destroy Tibetan culture...?? I understand indoctrination, and seeing inside your own thought bubbles... But really, if you're on this site, and you're out in the world, and you're able to hear MULTIPLE SIDES to the issue, HOW can you attack pro-Tibetan Independence people for propaganda? What's more--how can you think that this is a logical argument?

Europe took over North America, yes. Yes, they destroyed the culture of the Native Americans. Yes. Okay. I get it. But if you're living in a densely-native area, such as I am now, and you know something about the situation in Tibet, how can you parallel the situations? Native culture in the US is celebrated, and done so freely. In China-Tibet, it is attacked... Who knows, maybe it'll only take 500 years for Beijing to ease up and allow these people to celebrate their cultures.

Here's to that hope...

Annie Wang hit the nail. I am Tibetan living in Canada where there are many Chinese from Mainland. Whenever I meet Chinese they aks me where I am from. I tell them I am a Tibetan from Tibet, right away they tell me I am a Chinese. I don't take it as offence or anything. But it just tells me that Chinese just don't get us. Not their mistake though. That is what they learned and what they were told. Tibetans in Tibet and outside Tibet will never think themselves as Chinese. This has got nothing to do with being racist or whatever comes to your mind. That is just how Tibetans think simply because we are Tibetan. I am also bit surprised that when I tell them I am from Tibet, chinese friends seems to be in bit of shock. They are like how can you speak English? Where did you learn etc. General Chinese really do not understand Tibet at all. I see a huge gap between Tibetans and Chinese. Chinese have some sort of expectation of gratitude from Tibetans towards them. To tell you the truth, Tibetans just wanted to be left alone without ristrictions to their religion, culture, life styles etc be Chinese govenment. Of course Chinese government spends billions of yaun to build railway and what not. But it doesn't generate automatic loyalty except for few party loyals and their families who are ejoying the good life.
Bottom line is Tibetans and Chinese are far appart in understanding each other. Please don 't be defensive because thit is what I see whenever Tibetan issue comes. I did not mention anything about "independent". There are far more things to talk about before we can even discuss about Tibetan Nation.

I went to a lecture recently on the 13th Dalai Lama's nation building plan, by Tsering Shakya, the author of Dragon in the Land of Snows, a history of Tibet. This book was mentioned in an earlier posting. The author is regarded as the current foremost scholar of Tibetan history. Among other interesting subjects, he explained the historic lands and boundaries of Tibet and China. I learned that at one time in the mid 20th century, a conference was held to delineate the Tibetan and Chinese borders, but WWII erupted, and the plan was not signed.

I also learned that at one time, Tibetans controlled parts of what is China today. So, I guess China should give these provinces back to the Tibetans, using the same logic for China's rationalization for invading and occupying Tibet since 1950. :-)

China had been very weak for the previous 300 years until the British withdrew support for Tibet in favor of China in the first half of the 20th c.-- to avoid the spread of communism to China. The British were afraid of Communist Mongolia, so armed the Chinese, who then turned Communist and invaded Tibet not long after.

I learned also that the current Tibetan government in exile is supported by voluntary tax donations from Tibetans in exile. That is proof that Tibetans want their country back from the Chinese. Also, the taxes are a minimum of 50 dollars, pounds, or rupees or whatevers per year, depending where one lives.

The largest percentage of contributions to Tibetan Buddhist monasteries comes from Taiwan.

Namaste

Ms Wang,

I very much like your idea of the Dalai Lama talking to the ordinary people of China, he is an extraordinary man and is respected worldwide for his peaceful ways and inspirational speaking. He brings messages of hope.

There are of course some problems with the idea.

Firstly he would have to run counter to all the views previously expressed on Tibet by the government of the Peoples Republic of China over the last fifty-seven years. Yes! there are whole generations of people in China who have no idea that there is even an issue over Tibet. How would they receive this stranger in their midst telling them they had all got it wrong throughout their lives!?

Secondly, I believe the PRC is no longer interested in courting or talking to the Dalai Lama, they have decided to play the waiting game until he is no longer with us or can offer his opposing view to the pronouncements of the PRC and what they want the outside world to believe.

Thirdly, the PRC is very sensitive to any view on Tibet which differs from their own, it does not suit their purposes in the exploitation of Tibetan natural resources, nor their military and political control or plans for Tibet.

Any meetings attended by the Dalai Lama would be heavily stage-managed. The kind of control they would exert can readily be deduced in observing the occasions when China’s government officials visit western democracies.

Opposition to the PRC stance on Tibet is quickly dismissed and used as a threat by China to curtail talks with those democracies being visited unless the opposition is silenced, removed or controlled. China is not averse to suggesting to democracies that they see things their way if they wish to develop a productive relationship with China, this smacks of bullying and is nothing other than political interference with the democratic and sovereign rights of independent nations, what’s new there!?!?

The final thing I would like to say is this, neither the Tibetan Government in exile, nor the PRC have seen fit to seriously consult or have sought out the views of the Tibetan peoples currently living in Tibet. When the people of Tibet finally get to select the form of government they desire, then and only then will justice have been fully served, basic human rights will have been restored and a nation’s views will have been listened to and acted upon.

To Ms Wang and everyone else on this forum, I beg your forbearance with my forthright views, I realise that some of the things I have said have been inflammatory and uncomfortable for some of you. I have a strongly held and passionate desire to see Tibetan freedom and self-determination for Tibet and its peoples realised.

May peace, love, political freedom and basic human rights, belong to everyone throughout the world, those are my fervent wishes.

Bless you all

Tashi

Ms. Annie Wang:
You are a journalist who mainly reports on China. Tibet is a subject that you will deal with again and again in the future. I suggest that you read a book and a thesis on modern Tibet that might benefit you. The book is entitled The Making of Modern Tibet, written by A. Tom Grunfeld, whose views on modern Tibet are neither pro-PRC nor the Dalai Lama. Its revised edition was published in the United State in 1996. The thesis is called “Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth” written by Michael Parenti, who views Tibet as a country occupied by the Chinese. You can find thesis on the Internet. Its online link, which one poster in this forum already noted above, is: http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html.

quote "You may prefer to be a Borg, the rest of 1.3 billion people prefer to be Humans. So keep your fantasy to yourself"
--------
LOL Fong Fong, I was joking, noone want to be half mutant+ machine. Someone claimed that China never exist,that it was fantasy and historical invention, I just counter a ridiculous this statement by ridiculous comparasion...you have to see all my writing with a context of previous replies.

The Paradox of Humanity:

We are all born into the world as humans, and we will all die as humans. Yet during our lifetime, we like to separate us from each other with identity labels: Tibetans, Hans, Whites, Blacks, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, ... Paradoxically, these identity labels are like boxes that trap us from reaching our full potential which is to be human.

The path to enlightenment is to master the paradoxes that trap us so we can reach our full potential.

Take care,

Fong Fong

Commentator "ANONYMOUS",

You are caught in the Paradox of Humanity.

You may prefer to be a Borg, the rest of 1.3 billion people prefer to be Humans. So keep your fantasy to yourself.

Take care,

Fong Fong

"We alway had a extreme long vision, Roman empire is short sighted, that's why China still exist and not roman empire."

Quote” This is complete an utter nonsense to suggest that "China still exists," and it is based upon nothing other than your own fantasy and historical invention.”

quote If China "still exists," in WHAT FORM does it exist? It is not the same government, nor the same policies, nor the same culture, nor the same values, nor the same language, nor the same territorial boundaries. Your assertion is dead wrong. “
So I ask, why do you pretend that there is this grand continuity in Chinese history, when in fact, there is none? As usual, it's because that's what the government wants you to believe
----------

Yes you’re right that I invent a historical fantasy, you can compare Chinese today as “Borg” on Star trek movie, we absorb other’s culture to further enhance ours, now we’re in contact with western world, eventually their culture (thinking, technology, way of doing things…) will be absorb and merge to create a greater and better one. Any resistance will be futile…HAHAHA. ..

Sure base on you statement is that China should split into multiple countries because there is different culture, different language…well you can make theory about the existence of China and fantasize the history surround it…better than that: write a fiction that fit your visions. This not gonna change the reality,

During history time line, China had grown stronger & stronger if you compare it to Roman empire, this latter didn’t last very long same as Mongolian empire. Sure we had periods of setback during history; China had been invaded numerous times by what we so call the “barbarians”. Most the times we won but we had lost two greats decisive wars to Mongolians and Manchurians, this allowed them to sit their throne on China but eventually peace and understanding finally unit us + other 50+ minorities as what we call Chinese now. China is not only the homeland of Han but other 56? minorities that include Tibetans.

Whether you like or not that’s the brief condense story, I’m no gonna write an encyclopedia about that. if that it’s a government propaganda according to you than fine with me, if 1 (you) out of 1.3 billion don’t believe, do the math, you will find out that’s negligible amount the mass. And if you still think that China is pure fiction, don’t wait until that we will absorb you and your culture to make as our own, any resistance will be futile….HAHAHA…man I like Borgs on Star trek

Commentator "AT YOU",

You are caught in the Paradox of Rhetoric: Empire and Civilization.

Empire - empires are built through force and they eventually crumble. Roman empire disappeared. Qin empire disappeared. British empire disappeared.

Civilization - civilization is carried on in people's mind and heart and as long as there are people, the civilization lives on. This is why Chinese civilization continues through countless dynasties and governments.

Take care,

Fong Fong

"We alway had a extreme long vision, Roman empire is short sighted, that's why China still exist and not roman empire."

This is complete an utter nonsense to suggest that "China still exists," and it is based upon nothing other than your own fantasy and historical invention.

If China "still exists," in WHAT FORM does it exist? It is not the same government, nor the same policies, nor the same culture, nor the same values, nor the same language, nor the same territorial boundaries. Your assertion is dead wrong.

So I ask, why do you pretend that there is this grand continuity in Chinese history, when in fact, there is none? As usual, it's because that's what the government wants you to believe.

If you do not identify yourself as a human being first, you will be labeled as a "banana".

## T.S. Eliot: "We must not cease from exploration and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we began and to know the place for the first time."

## Tao De Ching (Chapter 33 - Self knowledge & Self mastery)

Intelligent people know others.
Enlightened people know themselves.

You can conquer others with power,
But it takes true strength to conquer yourself.

Ambitious people force their will on others,
But content people are already wealthy.

...
http://www.thetao.info/english/page33.htm

Take care,

Fong Fong

Many people are caught in the Paradox of Identity:

Identity labels such as "Tibetans", "Chinese", "Americans", "Whites", "Blacks", "Jews", "Shiites", "Sunnis" etc. are inventions that are designed to drive a wedge between humans so one group of humans can dominate another group of humans.

The path to enlightenment is to realize that your Identity is you are a Human Being and no one special . Therefore, you are equal in dignity and rights to the next Human Being who maybe in Tibet, in Beijing, or in the Whitehouse. You are entitled to your opinion and you can only speak for yourself. We are all brothers and sisters in the Human Family. Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1 says: "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

Take care,

Fong Fong

quote" I would argue with you, the Tibetans were not slaves, ergo they could not be freed. Your agument is spurious."

see the link
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

quote"In Old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who composed the "middle-class" families of merchants, shopkeepers, and small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. A small minority were slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring were born into slavery.10 The greater part of the rural population—some 700,000 of an estimated total of 1,250,000—were serfs. Serfs and other peasants generally were little better than slaves. They went without schooling or medical care. They spent most of their time laboring for high-ranking lamas or for the secular landed aristocracy. Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. And they might easily be separated from their families should their owners send them to work in a distant location.11

One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: "Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished." They "were just slaves without rights."12 Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a "liberation." He claimed that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord's men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain.13

The serfs were under a lifetime bond to work the lord's land—or the monastery's land—without pay, to repair the lord's houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand.14 They were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child, and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. There were taxes for religious festivals, for singing, dancing, drumming, and bell ringing. People were taxed for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being placed into slavery sometimes for the rest of their lives."

There still more story to tell about Tibet, I'm not bother to dig the dirty story about Tibet, let people to discover the reality of Tibet by themself, Dalai Lama once recongnize Tibet is part of China in condition that China do not interfere with his Tibet exploitation on its people. China entered Tibet and PLA had liberated these serfs and peasants that go against interest of the middle classe and Tibetan monks, that why they had cried for independant to be able to exploite our inland tibetans brothers and sisters to make them serfs again. But it's only a wet dream for Dalai Lama and his followers, China and Chinese people will not let that happen.

I will deal with you later for the rest of your reply

To the person who responded to Tashi.

Quote "China had free Tibetans from slavery".

I would argue with you, the Tibetans were not slaves, ergo they could not be freed. Your agument is spurious.

Quote "...except independant, Chinese gorvernment is allergic with that..."

Why???

Quote "1.3 billions opinions that is not revealed."

These opinions are not important inasmuch as these opinions do not decide PRC policy.

Quote "Tibet is part of China,"

Tibet never was and can never be a part of China, China is China, Tibet is Tibet. If China were to invade and conquer America, America would still be America though ruled by China.

Quote " Where in all this is the compassion, the understanding and tolerance of another peoples, where is the subtlety, guile and long term planning for which the Chinese race have generally been known and respected for over the centuries"

My point is that China is not compassionate, not understanding of and not tolerant of Tibetans. China is not thinking about Tibet rationally, subtly or with guile. China has blundered into Tibet then twisted every argument raised against their actions to justify its own wrongdoing.

Quote “China has some kind of a blind spot, or should that be a blind hatred of all things Tibetan, is it the fact that Tibet is something other? therefore unknown, to be feared, to be despised and treated disrespectfully
LMAO, where you try to come with...with all these questions?”

You may laugh, but abusing basic human rights is no laughing matter, Tibet was a peaceful country going about its lawful business in its own unique way before the PLA marched in. Tibetan Bhuddism is a peace loving faith – why cannot the whole country practice its faith without interference from the central Chinese government or from being called splittist. Tibetans have an inalienable right to practise their faith without let or hindrance.

Read the Geneva convention on the Declaration of Human Rights and ask yourself does the PRC subscribe and allow these Human rights or not?

http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm

I put it to you that Tibet frightens the government of the PRC and MUST be subdued by them to deal to their own hugely irrational fears.

Quote “I don't think we need to set a example because China is not perfect, only care for face saving is bad national interest policy, that only penalize and resticte the freedom of actions. And we don't need to export ours values, only unsellable values that some countries try hard to export or force other to accepted.”

The PRC DOES need to set a good example, responsibility comes commensurately with power.

Quote “I believe that China will live by book & by sword: treate Chaos with sword & peace with book, we have knowlege both, that's while China still united afer 5000 years, if we have to die by sword, so be it at least is valuable.”

Define chaos please?, I would suggest that metaphorical swords were used to subdue “chaotic” Tibet. Again, may I respectfully suggest that the PRC should try something “outside the PRC box” like using compassion and understanding rather than arms.

Quote “Provocation & bullying only invite desasters... Chinese people knew how to respect others and make others to respect us.”

I agree, they do invite disasters. I know many Chinese people who do respect both me and other people, I have no argument with the people of China, my argument is with their government.

Quote “Indeed China's sovereignty is an issue.”

Not so, China’s sovereignty is not an issue nor is it under threat in China, I repeat Tibet’s sovereignty IS the issue here.

Quote “I know nothing about that incident, but shooting is big too severe for leaving Tibet at first glande, PLA could have just captured these people..there again we're only base on superficial informations from western media, no until the true story come out. But I believe strongly that these solders didn't without a good reason or they will face prosecution even death penalty.”

I am really pleased you think shooting people leaving a country, for whatever reason, is too severe – again the declaration of Human Rights has a lot to say about these kind of issues. Please do a Google search on the incident and you will find many eyewitness accounts from international mountaineers who saw the whole event unfold in front of them, one person managed to film the incident.

quote "I ask the rhetorical question, what exactly is the PRC so afraid of??

Quote "that is vague as question, be more specific?”

Why cannot the PRC government leave Tibet to the Tibetans?

Why cannot the PRC government allow religious freedoms in Tibet?

Why is the PRC government so scared of peoples who have different opinions to them?

“Live and let live”

Human rights abuses
Repression
Domination by force

All of these things are indicative of a state that feels it is “justified” in using excessive means to counter any “perceived threat”

Quote “Note: I don't claim to be representative of the government, hence I entitle only my own opinion, there's still 1.3 billion chinese opinions regarding Tibet issue, so I hope my chinese brothers and sisters don't bash me for what I had said.”

I would remind you that those 1.3 billion opinions do not influence or inform the Central Party policy of the PRC.

If the population of China did indeed have a democratic voice then maybe things would be very different, I hope that one day this may happen, though just now the timing is not right.

I sincerely hope that your Chinese brothers and sisters would not bash you for what you have said here. I too do not represent the views of my or any other government, these are simply my personal beliefs and in the interests of free speech I feel entitled to air these views openly, any person is more than welcome to disagree with me, I am quite comfortable with that.

Tashi

quote" What was the Peoples Republic of China (PRC) liberating Tibet from? Itself? or was China simply "liberating" the resources and strategic geographical location of Tibet as a military buffer zone, so protecting the homeland? Or was something else the catalyst for the invasion?"
----
China had free Tibetans from slavery. I believe that Dalai Lama want independent that had driven Chinese invasion, Tibetans could have kept all, culture, freedom of practicing religions, include eat and Sh**t except independant, Chinese gorvernment is allergic with that..that is only my opinion, but there is 1.3 billions opinions that is not revealed.
----
quote" I have some sympathies with the Chinese defence position, the country suffered enormously under the Japanese occupation, but, at the expense of Tibet's sovereinty? I think not, PRC's defensive objectives could have been more easily achieved through negotiation and peaceful means, infinitely more benignly than they were."
------
Japs are opportunism, they had toke adventage weak period of China & Western invasion to fish in trouble water. In 1 vs 1, they won't dare. the lesson is well taught, we had pay a price for been weak, China need to be strong & powerfull or misfortune will strke again.

What you talking about "expense of Tibet's sovereinty?" Tibet is part of China, we don't need to negociate what is belong to us. China already offer the best for Tibetans, their civil right is much better than Han people... Ironically, Han people can only have one child + pay for education while they can have more + free education..and more
------
quote" Where in all this is the compassion, the understanding and tolerance of another peoples, where is the subtlety, guile and long term planning for which the Chinese race have generally been known and respected for over the centuries?"
---------
I don't know what you try to get at?
---
quote" China has some kind of a blind spot, or should that be a blind hatred of all things Tibetan, is it the fact that Tibet is something other? therefore unknown, to be feared, to be despised and treated disrespectfully.
----
LMAO, where you try to come with...with all these questions?
-----
quote" China is a mighty country, it should use it's power and influence carefully and set a good example to the world by working harmoniously with its neighbours. "Those who live by the sword die by the sword", or more prosaically;
"treat other people as you would wish to be treated yourself".
------
I don't think we need to set a example because China is not perfect, only care for face saving is bad national interest policy, that only penalize and resticte the freedom of actions. And we don't need to export ours values, only unsellable values that some countries try hard to export or force other to accepted.

I believe that China will live by book & by sword: treate Chaos with sword & peace with book, we have knowlege both, that's while China still united afer 5000 years, if we have to die by sword, so be it at least is valuable.

Provocation & bullying only invite desasters... Chinese people knew how to respect others and make others to respect us.
---
quote" The Dalai Lama is not really the issue here, the sovereignty and freedom of Tibet is."
---
Indeed China's sovereignty is an issue.

---
Shooting at Tibetan people who were leaving Tibet as recently as October 2006 shows the kind of "respect" accorded Tibetans by the Chinese government.
-------
I know nothing about that incident, but shooting is big too severe for leaving Tibet at first glande, PLA could have just captured these people..there again we're only base on superficial informations from western media, no until the true story come out. But I believe strongly that these solders didn't without a good reason or they will face prosecution even death penalty.
---------
quote "I ask the rhetorical question, what exactly is the PRC so afraid of?? "
-----
that is vague as question, be more specific

------------------------------------------------
Note: I don't claim to be reprentitive of the gorverment, hence I entitle only my own opinion, there's still 1.3 billion chinese opinions regarding Tibet issue, so I hope my chinese brothers and sisters don't bash me for what I had said.

Commentator "MIMI" and "TO MIMI",

Both of you are caught in the Paradox of Future.

MIMI, you wrote: "...it is difficult to tell the future."
TO MIMI, you wrote: " Let the future tell us..."

The Paradox of Future is Future is not determined but is to be shaped. Through your own actions, you influence how the Future unfolds. Unfortunately, up to now, your actions are aimed at each other, so they cancel each other, and you have no influence on the Future.

But if you combine your action and work towards the common goal, then your forces can influence how the Future unfolds and create a world that both of you would enjoy to live in.

Take care,

Fong Fong

quote "The people on this blog defending Tibetan rights ARE contributing to the world positively, educating people about the unjust occupation of Tibet by China. Rich and Bod especially have contributed substantively to this discussion. "
------

Mimi please don't bush**t your compliment with none sense affirmation, should I have to be in your side to be considered as "positive contributor to the world"? Definitely Chinese people will label me as most peace lover man in this world....HAHAHA. please dont talk with none sense
-------
quote" Fong Fong, Re: enlightenment, Mahayana Buddhists vow to continue rebirth until all sentient beings are enlightened. This could be made easier if genocide would stop, and we could concentrate on creative, respectful solutions to world problems."
-----
I don't know much about Fong Fong religious "political" vocation, but I respect his opinion.

--------
quote: Also, I was thinking that if China wants to remain an atheist country, they should probably not try to incorporate Tibet into it. The Chinese may all end up Tibetan Buddhists someday!"
--------
China is inland Tibetan brother's country, do you think I mind if if all Chinese become Tibetan Buddhists? not at all.
---------
quote" And to our Han person with the persecution complex and who regrets not killing all the Tibetans already: Your statement regretting not killing all the Tibetans already so that China would not have to deal with Tibetans an inexcusable statement shows that you are ignorant. This kind of statement invites deep criticism, the kind you probably would call "China bashing." "
--------------
Mimi, you should know that China treat our inland Tibetan brothers far better than what western had done to Inca, Maya, Aztec, American native peoples, they all got assimilated or wiped out less than few hundred years, Tibetans stayed with China for millenium and still exist today. It's not our nature to wiped out minorities to create space for Han people, we only want to coexist and share the properity.

And I recongnize that is wrong to what I wrote on my previous post about that China should have wiped out Tibetans to avoid today's tibetan issue, for that I apoloze: what i'm trying to get at is that all those extincted civilization people don't even have a voice today to say a single word about western crime & exploitation, but we had spared Tibetans and turn against us, don't you think how ironic? releasing a tiger back to mountain will only hurt people, China won't make that mistake again.

----
quote" Also, it is short sighted to proclaim that Tibet will always be part of China, since it was not previously part of China, and it is difficult to tell the future. It is not inconceivable that the Roman Empire and other defunct powers also made proclamation about the lands they invaded. "
-------
China always have a long vision for Tibet and can tell you the future now: with economic booming & thank for western inventif junks such T.V. Car, playstation games, playboy magazine with XXX, PC...Tibetans in China will eventually more concern to have all these junks and personal fortune than a potential misfortune with political adventure.

And you lose again if you try to compare China to Roman Empire, We alway had a extreme long vision, Roman empire is short sighted, that's why China still exist and not roman empire. Let the future tell us who will be the most convincing prediction: you or me

Many people in the world (Tibet, China, United States, ... Everywhere) are caught in the Paradox of Rhetoric: Freedom, Rights, and Responsibilities.

## Freedom: Freedom is innate while Rights are given. A person's Rights can all be taken away yet the person still retains the Freedom to think.

## Rights: Rights come only with Responsibilities. A child gets more rights as the child becomes more responsible for his/her own life.

## Responsibilities: "People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of brotherhood and sisterhood. We need to cultivate a universal *Responsibility* for one another and the planet we share." (From Dalai Lama's Nobel Peace speech)

The path to enlightenment is to understand there is only one planet. We clean the dirtiest part of the planet, we breath easier at the cleanest place. We lift up the weakest person in the world, we enlarge the room for ourselves no matter where we live.

Take care,

Fong Fong

What was the Peoples Republic of China (PRC) liberating Tibet from? Itself? or was China simply "liberating" the resources and strategic geographical location of Tibet as a military buffer zone, so protecting the homeland? Or was something else the catalyst for the invasion?

I have some sympathies with the Chinese defence position, the country suffered enormously under the Japanese occupation, but, at the expense of Tibet's sovereinty? I think not, PRC's defensive objectives could have been more easily achieved through negotiation and peaceful means, infinitely more benignly than they were.

Where in all this is the compassion, the understanding and tolerance of another peoples, where is the subtlety, guile and long term planning for which the Chinese race have generally been known and respected for over the centuries?

China has some kind of a blind spot, or should that be a blind hatred of all things Tibetan, is it the fact that Tibet is something other? therefore unknown, to be feared, to be despised and treated disrespectfully.

China is a mighty country, it should use it's power and influence carefully and set a good example to the world by working harmoniously with its neighbours. "Those who live by the sword die by the sword", or more prosaically;
"treat other people as you would wish to be treated yourself".

The Dalai Lama is not really the issue here, the sovereignty and freedom of Tibet is.

Shooting at Tibetan people who were leaving Tibet as recently as October 2006 shows the kind of "respect" accorded Tibetans by the Chinese government.

I ask the rhetorical question, what exactly is the PRC so afraid of??

The people on this blog defending Tibetan rights ARE contributing to the world positively, educating people about the unjust occupation of Tibet by China. Rich and Bod especially have contributed substantively to this discussion.

Fong Fong, Re: enlightenment, Mahayana Buddhists vow to continue rebirth until all sentient beings are enlightened. This could be made easier if genocide would stop, and we could concentrate on creative, respectful solutions to world problems.

Also, I was thinking that if China wants to remain an atheist country, they should probably not try to incorporate Tibet into it. The Chinese may all end up Tibetan Buddhists someday!

And to our Han person with the persecution complex and who regrets not killing all the Tibetans already: Your statement regretting not killing all the Tibetans already so that China would not have to deal with Tibetans an inexcusable statement shows that you are ignorant. This kind of statement invites deep criticism, the kind you probably would call "China bashing."

Also, it is short sighted to proclaim that Tibet will always be part of China, since it was not previously part of China, and it is difficult to tell the future. It is not inconceivable that the Roman Empire and other defunct powers also made proclamation about the lands they invaded.

Commentator "ANONYMOUS" and "AT YOU",

Both of you are caught in the Paradox of Me: I am smart so You must be ignorant; I am free so You must be oppressed; I am logical so You must be illogical; I am good so You must be bad; I see things clearly so You must be blind; I win so You must lose; I am powerful so You must be powerless.

The path to enlightenment is to understand that you are no one special but you can contribute to the world so hopefully humanity is a little bit better as a result.

Take care,

Fong Fong

@Anonymous

I have lived in China, I know how ignorant you so-called "educated" Chinese are, and you are a prime example. The Chinese in the cities do not think or know much about the west of China, but are more concerned with making money and the changes around them. For them, Tibet and Xinjiang are distant places that they visit when they go on vacation. Nevertheless, no matter how apolitical a person, I find that Chinese become frothing-at-mouth enraged when you mention, Taiwan, Tibet, or Xinjiang--or any of China's other contested claims. Of course, like you, they cannot back-up their arguments logically or factually, because they don't know how to argue, as you have ably demonstrated time and again. Rather, they have been indoctrinated from a very young age to support their leader's perverse view of history and society, and when you prompt them, they simply regurgitate.

There is a very big difference between the Chinese state media and the media in the west. Our media is free and open: you can say anything you want on television, whereas in China, if you dared to say the wrong word about Tibet or Taiwan, you would be fired and jailed. In the west, we hear a diversity of opinion. You get the state propaganda, over, and over and over.

Keep studying English! You'll need it!

quote "Today the peoples of these former colonialists do not claim sovereignty or superiority over their former victims, neither do they continue genocidal occupations over them."
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Because they dont have anymore the same power as what they had before. If this world is left open for attack, those colonialists will size the opportunity. so don't make innocent about those colonilists
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quote" China on the other hand has continued such genocidal terror over their peaceful Tibetan neighbors ever since the communists established their dictatorship in 1949."
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you're just brainwasherd but western media, buy a ticket and go to take a look in tibet, the tourism is booming there. this will bring you back to reality, westerners only shown are only dirty, uncomb hair and poor peasants, this will be better to support their claim about chinese bad doing in Tibet.
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quote” When the blatantly indoctrinated Han-chauvinists are pointed out their regime's and nation's crimes against humanity, they only regurgitate even more fantastical rewritings of history. "Look, country X did evil things hundreds of years ago so we have the right to commit genocide _today_!!!"
-------------
History is a mirror of humanity either China or others countries, only you and your kind don't know what is the purpose of the history. By compararing X-country, we can tell the world what China did and others had done to their native people so let them just by themselves. If China had wiped out it natives people same way as other did, we won’t have this discussion today, regrettably China should had done this, so Tibetan issue is a pass same way as Inca, Aztec, American native people, we were not cruel enough.
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quote” The bottom line of these Han-chauvinist fairytales is that the Tibetan people - who are in _every_ way non-chinese (in ethnicity, language, its sanskrit-based script, history, religion) - and all the lands of their nation simply belong to the Han-chauvinists in modern times because some chinese god-emperor (who are otherwise totally disowned and bedeviled by the communist regime) claimed to be the center of the world and all known lands were supposedly vassals!”
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that is your pathetic though, we’re living in 21st century, noone believe that craps, and you’re still living in the dark age.
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quote “According to such logic the Han-chauvinists can not accept the independent status of the vast majority of today's free nation states, including the Republic of India, because almost every nation has at one time or another during the dark ages of history been under nominal or de facto occupation by some foreign aggressor.”
----
Chinese people is not lunatic as you and your kind, we defend only what is belong to us. Tibet is part or China whether you like or not, this will no change and will never be changed. As your frame to involve India, nice try but won’t work.
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quote” Apparently only brutal and even genocidal occupation provides legitimacy according to the twisted and anacronistic doctrine of the chinese regime. Hundreds of thousands of heavily armed foreign Han troops and hundreds of illegal torture camps and nearly total lack of civil freedoms for the Tibetans are all the legitimacy the occupying chinese can claim. But in the end the shame belongs to the chinese people who allow these crimes to continue unopposed.”
---
There again, you just copy and paste the same craps from western media, did I learn anything new?? No nothing
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quote” In the address below are some plain and sober facts about Tibet and the orchestrated propaganda efforts by the occupying chinese regime”
---
you want to make me believe those craps from separatist?… gonna be kidding me, what ever written in that website, I won’t give a damn same way as they traited China new as propaganda.

Thanks for your explanation. I appreciate what you are doing.

I know that the vast majority of Han Chinese are good people, but I do see strong elements of brutality and avarice in their culture, while mind control and eccentric interpretations of history are pervasive in their system. This, I believe, is dangerous.

TO TO AT YOU:
quote:"Believe me, if I have an inferiority complex, it is most certainly not relative to Han Chinese, whose principle contribution to the world and humanity is cheap labor. Everything else is begged, borrowed, and stolen."
----
Better not being relative to Han Chinese or you will be only a second class citizens with your previous statement. What ever China did and contribute to this world not only enhance Chinese prestige even U.S has to show respect toward China...read the news man. only ignorant such you and your kind will only eat whatever the left over from this world.
------------------
"As for the rest of your statement, it is typical, illogical, circular rubbish and insults that simply claims that you do not have to be logical and then disparages my argument without evidence. Then you arbitrarily claim that Tibet is a natural part of China, again without evidence. "
--------------
I have to intent to insult anyone beside those Chinese bashers, they had contribute nothing other than bashing. As for the proof about Tibet, this subject had been discussing serveral decades, Tibetan Separatists will never the proof from Chinese sources, they will flatly reject so I'm no going to waste my time. when peoples only have independent in mind, the best evident will be dismiss.
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Aren't you just regurgitating the propaganda they piped-down your throat, you moron? That's what Chinese normally do.
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If you talk to yourself, I won't blame you. I received enought of education to differenciate what is Propanda and what is "China interest".
I'm alway for China interest and I dont give a sh**t about CCP propaganda. only morons such you and your kind still believe that all Chineses are living under communist.
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quote"20,000 websites are blocked in China to ensure that you don't know the truth!"
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Not all Chinese follows blindly the propaganda machine especially those educated people ( we know how to find other sources), and for uneducated ones, they dont care about politic only money. There again you have no clue about the reality in China, you just copy and past a piece of crap new from either CNN or other western media.
------------------------
quote"To those of you who claim that the Chinese policy in Tibet is akin to the American history with native Americans: your only claim to correctness is the logic of force, and by the same argument Japan's Nanjing policy was well justified."
-----------------------
Chinese had never done to Tibetans on how Japs did to Chinese people, PLA only deal with rebellions and separatists, we had never massive behead or bure alive innocents tibetans civilians, or commite sex slavery again Tibetans women. If Chinese had carried the same way as Japs, you won't find a single tibetan nowaday.

you comparasion only invite destruction.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the human rights movement was something that came out of the second world war. Since that time, international law and the international consciousness and acceptance of human rights and self-determination has become the order of the world and all nations need to accept this reality.

An ideologue is someone who pretends to possess some special enlightenment. I am a Han Chinese and I am no one special. I have been lucky to have discovered an enlightenment which I want to contribute to the world so hopefully humanity is a little bit better as a result.

Take care,

Fong Fong

Your "caring" instruction is ridiculous and patronizing. It is beyond me why you patrol this bulletin board as if it is your job. You need to probe the paradox of your own dedication to "correcting" the statements of others and why you deceive yourself and pretend to possess some special enlightenment. I read some of your other posts, and it's clear that you are an ideologue.

I have no fear whatsoever of Han Chinese. However, I was referring to another post wherein I stated the fact that they are a deeply racist, chauvinistic people. But theirs is coming.

Commentator "TO TO AT YOU",

You are caught in the Paradox of Logic - Law of Unintended Consequences is not Logical but Paradoxical.

The key is to confront Your own Fear: Your Fear of the Han Chinese.

At the end of your fear, you will have Courage. You will then see the world as a Brighter place, your heart will be more Tranquil, and your mind will be more Creative.

Take care,

Fong Fong

Believe me, if I have an inferiority complex, it is most certainly not relative to Han Chinese, whose principle contribution to the world and humanity is cheap labor. Everything else is begged, borrowed, and stolen.

As for the rest of your statement, it is typical, illogical, circular rubbish and insults that simply claims that you do not have to be logical and then disparages my argument without evidence. Then you arbitrarily claim that Tibet is a natural part of China, again without evidence.

Aren't you just regurgitating the propaganda they piped-down your throat, you moron? That's what Chinese normally do.

20,000 websites are blocked in China to ensure that you don't know the truth!

To those of you who claim that the Chinese policy in Tibet is akin to the American history with native Americans: your only claim to correctness is the logic of force, and by the same argument Japan's Nanjing policy was well justified.

Commentator "Bod Rangzen",

You wrote: "...claimed to be the center of the world and all known lands were supposedly vassals!..."

Many leaders in the past and present are caught in the Paradox of Civilization: A great Civilization is not one that subjugates the whole World, but is one that uplifts the spirit of the whole Humanity.

Take care,

Fong Fong

Commentator "Bod Rangzen",

You wrote: "...claimed to be the center of the world and all known lands were supposedly vassals!..."

Many leaders in the past and present are caught in the Paradox of Civilization: A great Civilization is not one that subjugates the whole World, but is one that uplifts the spirit of the whole Humanity.

Take care,

Fong Fong

Commentator "Bod Rangzen",

You wrote: "...claimed to be the center of the world and all known lands were supposedly vassals!..."

Many leaders in the past and present are caught in the Paradox of Civilization: A great Civilization is not one that subjugates the whole World, but is one that uplifts the spirit of the whole Humanity.

Take care,

Fong Fong

Expansionist regimes have _always_ lied about their "right" for attacking and invading other countries, and the victims are invariably far less militarized than the aggressors.

Before democracy became the norm in Europe, several European kingdoms undertook indecent acts against foreign peoples near and far. Today the peoples of these former colonialists do not claim sovereignty or superiority over their former victims, neither do they continue genocidal occupations over them.

China on the other hand has continued such genocidal terror over their peaceful Tibetan neighbors ever since the communists established their dictatorship in 1949.

When the blatantly indoctrinated Han-chauvinists are pointed out their regime's and nation's crimes against humanity, they only regurgitate even more fantastical rewritings of history. "Look, country X did evil things hundreds of years ago so we have the right to commit genocide _today_!!!"

The bottom line of these Han-chauvinist fairytales is that the Tibetan people - who are in _every_ way non-chinese (in ethnicity, language, its sanskrit-based script, history, religion) - and all the lands of their nation simply belong to the Han-chauvinists in modern times because some chinese god-emperor (who are otherwise totally disowned and bedeviled by the communist regime) claimed to be the center of the world and all known lands were supposedly vassals!

According to such logic the Han-chauvinists can not accept the independent status of the vast majority of today's free nation states, including the Republic of India, because almost every nation has at one time or another during the dark ages of history been under nominal or de facto occupation by some foreign aggressor.

Apparently only brutal and even genocidal occupation provides legitimacy according to the twisted and anacronistic doctrine of the chinese regime. Hundreds of thousands of heavily armed foreign Han troops and hundreds of illegal torture camps and nearly total lack of civil freedoms for the Tibetans are all the legitimacy the occupying chinese can claim. But in the end the shame belongs to the chinese people who allow these crimes to continue unopposed.

In the address below are some plain and sober facts about Tibet and the orchestrated propaganda efforts by the occupying chinese regime.

http://studentsforafreetibet.org/article.php?list=type&type=7

(Tibet Today, History and Culture, Fact Vs. Myth etc.)

Damn, I'm so ignorant, I didnt know that British was behind this, not only they had made big mess for China about tibet, it had made India as China enemy too. I had alway though only CIA was the only one involment but this is really new to me.

I post the follow message with regard to how Tibet became part of China and some aspects of Tibetan history in early the 20th century and in the mid-1940s. The message as a post is lengthy. I wrote the message for other purpose. I hope that the message will be helpful for the discussion of the Tibet issue in this forum.

By mid-August 1945, Tibet had already been out of Chinese central government control over 33 years. Situated in the southwestern part of China, Tibet bordered with British-India, Nepal, Bhutan, and Sikkim. It occupied an area of 921,600 square kilometers, standing for about 8.2 percent of then China’s territory, with an estimated population of 847,000 people.

During the period of more than 1,000 years before 1663, the Chinese called the region of Tibet with a variety of names. In 1663, the government of the Manchu Qing dynasty in Beijing began to call the region “Xizang,” meaning “Buddhist scripture of the west” or “western storage,” and the name has used by the Chinese to this day. In 1716-1717, the Mongolian forces invaded Tibet from today’s Xinjiang and sacked Lasa, the capital of Tibet. By 1720, the Manchu-Chinese army dispatched by the Qing government expelled the Mongol army from Tibet. In the same year, the young 7th Dalai Lama, who had been under protection of the Qing government and grown up under the supervision of the Chinese emperor, was escorted to Tibet and assumed his position there, Tibet was thus absorbed into China. The Qing government established the office of its resident commissioner (amban), which represented the authority of Beijing, in Lasa and maintained it until the dynasty’s demise. During the 18th-19th centuries, the Tibetan local government under the Dalai Lama managed day-to-day internal affairs in Tibet.

In 1887, two thousand British troops attacked the Tibetan border from Sikkim, which became a protectorate of the British Empire in 1846. From December 1903 to September 1904, the British troops from British-India invaded Tibet once more. This time, they reached Lasa and occupied it for more than one month and a half, and, as what had done in earlier adventures in Egypt and Eastern China, these “civilized” gentlemen engaged in large-scale looting of Tibetan treasures, along with raping Tibetan women and destroying Tibetans’ properties. In the Anglo-Chinese treaty signed in April 1906, although the British did not specify whether China had the sovereignty over Tibet, which the Chinese had persisted during the treaty negotiations, or the suzerainty, which the Chinese had resolutely opposed during the negotiations, they did recognize Tibet as part of China. This was because China was on the rapid rise at the time. (Contrary to the conventional wisdom that believes that the Qing dynasty “continued” to decline and decay during the last years of its reign, during its last 11 years from 1901 to 1911, the Qing dynasty was in a rapid rise as a result of the reforms unfolded during the period. The reforms of 1901-1911 were a wholesale modernization movement and its focus, but not exclusively, was institutional reform. By 1911, the achievements that the Qing government had made in all reform arenas, such as political institutions, modern economy, military, education, legal system and some aspects of social life, were also so remarkable that no reasonable person can deny them. For example, from 1901 to 1911, China’s modern industry, including the transportation sector, underwent a striking expansion and its annual growth rate was about 15.5 percent. This was the fastest annual growth rate of modern industry in a period of 11 years in the first half of the 20th century in China and perhaps the fastest in the world in the early 20th century.) In other words, it was China’s fast rise that prompted the United Kingdom, other major powers in the world alike, who ultimately believed in only the law of jungle in the realm of international affairs, to recognize Tibet as part of China. It was also due to China’s speedy rise, the diplomacy of the United Kingdom regarding Tibet from April 1906 to October 1911 revealed that the British gave tacit consent to China’s sovereignty in Tibet.

When the Qing government finally mended the fence for its southwestern territory in 1906, it set out the reforms in Tibet and sent Han and Manchu officials there to directly supervise the reforms. Similar to the threefold aim of the reforms unfolded by the Qing government in Outer Mongolia then, the Qing government’s reforms in Tibet were aimed to build a modern Tibet, make it a province, which meant the direct rule of the central government, and prevent the British from encroaching on it. Although the reforms in Tibet in the early 20th century were long overdue and desperately needed and the Qing’s reforms of 1906-1911 in Tibet generated impressive achievements, which were acknowledged even by anti-Han Chinese Tibetan officials and went some way toward winning the allegiance of average Tibetans, Tibetan ruling elite headed by the 13th Dalai Lama vehemently resented the reforms, for, as what happened in Outer Mongolia during the same period, it hurt the vested interests of Tibetan ruling elite. Beijing dispatched a 1,700-men unit of the New Army (The New Army was China’s modern Army and the process of building up the New Army started after the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895.) to Tibet in January 1910 in order to gain military control over it. The 13th Dalai Lama fled Lasa on February 12, 1910 for British-India and Beijing responded by deposing him on February 25. The deposition of the 13th Dalai Lama did not cause foreign powers’ intervention or stir up the unrest in Tibet. In British-India, the deposed Dalai Lama consecutively sought the United Kingdom and Russia for aid, but was declined. On March 19, Beijing instructed its resident commissioner in Lasa to start to look for the boy who was the “real incarnation” of the late 12th Dalai Lama. It takes a few years to complete the procedure of discovering the “incarnation” of the late Dalai Lama and installing the “incarnation” as the Dalai Lama. The deposed 13th Dalai Lama’s political life seemed over and his religious status ruined.

Nevertheless, the 1911 revolution saved the deposed Dalai Lama politically and religiously. It also disrupted the Qing’s impressive reforms in Tibet and made a de facto independent Tibet possible. In November 1911, the revolutionaries in the Qing’s New Army in Tibet, which had augmented to about 3,800 men by then, revolted against the Qing dynasty and soon established a revolutionary regime in Tibet. The new regime, which was corrupt and incompetent and filled with internal power struggle, had little authority over the New Army in Tibet. The garrisons of the New Army in various locations in Tibet started to fight among themselves for various reasons and behaved very badly. The 1911 revolution thus threw the New Army in Tibet and therefore Tibet in a chaotic and volatile situation. In March 1912, the large-scale rebellion of indigenous Tibetans against the New Army and Han Chinese rule took place. When the troubled New Army restored both the original Qing’s resident commissioner and the original commanding general to power and ended their internal conflicts in June and July of 1912, it became evident that they were no longer able to maintain their presence in Tibet, for they had been seriously weakened by their internal fighting, the widespread Tibetan revolts, now supported by the British with the supplies of arms and ammunitions, and, most critically, none of reinforcements would come from China proper because of the British threats. (After the occurrence of the 1911 revolution, the British changed its China policy regarding Tibet from giving tacit consent to China’s sovereignty in Tibet to merely recognizing China’s nominal suzerainty over Tibet, prohibiting Beijing from exercising any power over Tibet, including dispatching the reinforcement force to Tibet. The aim of the new policy was to turn Tibet into British exclusive sphere of influence and a buffer zone between British-India and China.) Thus, the New Army in Tibet had to withdraw from Tibet. Part of them left as early as the spring of 1912; the rest started to withdraw in September 1912 and finished the withdrawal in a few months. Having lost control of Tibet, Beijing had no choice but to reinstate the deposed 13th Dalai Lama in his former position in late October 1912. The triumphant Dalai Lama returned to Lasa in January 1913, putting entire Tibet under his control again.

By mid-August 1945, the consecutive Beijing and Nanjing governments had been unable to extend their respective power over Tibet; nevertheless, none of them ceased to claim China’s sovereignty over it. From 1944 to mid-August 1945, in accordance with the so-called MacMahon Line, a borderline between British-India and Tibet declared by the British unilaterally, the British troops penetrated into and gradually annexed the Tibetan southern border region, perhaps the most valuable region in Tibet; the penetration and annexation were intensified after World War II and had not stopped until 1947, the year when the British left India and India achieved its independence in August. The Tibetan authorities lodged protest against the British aggression; the Guomindang government did the same. But neither one could do anything to stop it. Tibet, which regarded itself as an independent country, was too weak militarily to fight the British, whereas the Guomindang government did not have any of its troops in Tibet. Tibet’s southern border area occupied by the British during the period of 1944 to 1947 was inherited by independent India and that the area has remained part of disputed territory between China and India to this day.

The British and the Chinese were allies during World War II. While the two nations’ armies were fighting their common enemy of the Japanese in Burma in 1944-1945, the British, who still acknowledge