Comments (142)

Chakman ... you are right. Maybe I am wrong and arabs and jews are members of the same beach and country clubs. I know the KKK is nothing now. But I must admit, you are right. The inferences come from strong stereotypes that we obtain, ironically, from US media and Hollywood. Also by our own experiences when we travel to the US and from stories we hear. I personally have been to some clubs across the US and many seem to have he same type of people, not much diversity. Anyway, I am sorry for seeming closed minded toward the fact that the US might not be as racist as it seems. I know one thing: times they are a-changing.

"So, I came out white (in the US I am told many times I look French..??), but I a cannot join the KKK because I have darker skinned ancestors and even a jewish one. So, I look white but i am not racially "pure""

"I imagine this would be hard to see in the US (arabs and jews being friends in the same beach club). I'm sure american arabs would not seek memebership in a club with an enormous jewish population (what happened here)."

You know....how can anyone even discuss things with inferences like this?

Half the problem is the stereotypes and myths taught about USamericans. After a certain amount of discussion, it's like a Mollusk...There's no point?

When we try to engage with you, you basically just keep saying you are better in every way, and close to flawless.

While the USA is flawed in every way, according to you guys. If any contradictions or facts are pointed out, you can just mention something negative, even if it's totally unreleated.

Oh well

TO FF (the best US poster here).

"One strain has insisted on Venezuela as a melting pot where everyone is simply a different shade of one single race, while others have referred to more distinct racial/ethnic/national groups. Maybe someone can clarify this situation a bit for me."

For sure. There are distinct races, but many in only physical appearance. For example, I look like your everyday Italian, Spanish or French, but I am neither. My grandmother was dark Venezuelan Indian with Spaniard White (Spanish Jewish father). My mother is pale white southern-european looking, but her family is fully Venezuelan. My Father is mestizo (darker skinned with european facial features). So, I came out white (in the US I am told many times I look French..??), but I a cannot join the KKK because I have darker skinned ancestors and even a jewish one. So, I look white but i am not racially "pure"

There are many white and black Venezuelans with no mix of other races. But because the vast majority of people ARE mixed, we consider ourselves a true melting pot. By the way, many of those mixed ones, would be simply BLACK in the US. It happened to a girl I know that married a white American friend. Here, she was not black, she was..well ...Joanna (her name)... and she was simply in a marriage. They moved to Nebraska (he had to go) and now she is "black" and is part of a "mixed race marriage", a new concept for her. Over there, she realized that she was the product of a "mixed race marriage" herself, she just never saw her mom as dark and her dad as light, they wer just mom and pop. So you see. The race issue becomes blurred in the shades of skin color of the mestizos. It's clear among the "pure" white and the "pure" black. There are also rarities, such as Venezuelan redheads, albino-like blonds, australian aborigene type blacks, but you only see them in specific circles.

As for the arabs, they are part of Venezuelan society fully, just like the descendants of Italians, Spanish and Portuguese. The fourth generation arab kids are hip Venezuelans that pack the dance clubs. Ironically, one of the most popular beach clubs for Venezuelan Arabs is the the most popular for Venezuelan Jews. They make fun of each other sometimes, but in the end, they are all Venezuelans. I imagine this would be hard to see in the US (arabs and jews being friends in the same beach club). I'm sure american arabs would not seek memebership in a club with an enormous jewish population (what happened here).

About the asians (mostly chinese), they ARE another race here. Very few have chosen to become part of Venezuelan society. They have their Chinese club, they marry among themselves mostly. They are still foreign to Venezuelans, even though they are Venezuelans too. It's sad. If they opened up more, maybe the regular Venezuelan wouldn't see tham as "chinese", like what has happened in other latinamerican countries with asians. In this (the asians), Venezuelans have to learn from Americans.

Well, that's pretty much the situation here.

What Simon says is true ... here in Venezuela, people don't need to pick up a hyphen. They are allowed to be who they are, conserve their traditions and be Venezuelan at the same time. Many of them are better Venezielans than the orginal ones. A perfect example of this "respecting the heritage" thing is with the descendants of african slaves. They still dance the same dances they brought 500 years ago and have even made the rest of all Venezuelans dance "tambores" (african drums) at parties. The most upper-crust white elite weddings in Venezuela have a "tambores" group, with black shirtless men dressed in white pants banging on their drums while the crowd goes into a dance frenzy. This would be hard to imagine in other countries, such as those that "melted" cultures while keeping races segregated.

You can't willfully become 'American' or 'Venezuelan'. It happens over time and generations.

When you ignorantly state that they should be americans just because they move the U.S you are falling into the same close-minded name-tagging hyphe-nation politics.

In Venezuela, we have a fair share of second and third generation italian descendants. These kids are Venezuelan with a strong italian heritage--food, social clubs, etc. They are Venezuelan.

However, their parents and grandparents are "Italian" and they remain expats to this day. Venezuelans have no problem with Italians beings Italians in our country.

Inmigrants should not be forced to become Italian-Venezuelans or Italian-American...over time, kids and grandkids will be Venezuelans--they will always root for the azzurri in the world cup and we will always get to enjoy their delicious food

They are here to become Americans. Or are they here for some othere reason?????

They are here to become Americans. Or are they here for some othere reason?????

Why is it so hard for the real Americans to say
"I am an American of what ever nationality they came from"....why are they here in the first place?

I am an American of Italian desent. And I do not understand why people have to preface American with anything at all. Are you an American or not.
And I don't care where you came from you are here now. So you are an American.

"[My students and I] don't fixate on Obama as the first black candidate….And we're really puzzled by the way Americans do,” he says. “It seems to us like a form of racism. Americans don't realize how racist they are….By always discussing race, they just perpetuate their problem."

The author of this article completely mis-understands his topic. Americans openly confront and deal with racism and the HYPHEN is a big part of the strategy to move beyond the past. Instead of suppressing thier cultural heritage Americans celebrate it. So Latino-Americans, African-Americans, Italian-Americans etc. don't feel the need to hide their culture or skin color, instead, those differences are celebrated and inserted into the mixed cultural soup that is America.

Compare that to Venenzuela, the rest of South America, and most other places in the world where people of darker skin have few or no opportunities for equality and fair treatment. Only in American can a child of an immigrant, with no special family background or wealth, rise to be a serious candidate to be the leader of the free world. We don't ignore the fact that he is a hyphenated American, we celebrate it, because it affirms our unique success (albiet recent) in dealing with race.

I'd just add that as an African-American who has spent the last 10 years travelling the world, there is no better country to be black than the USA.

"OK RR, I get your point. The problem is that you don't get mine. Beyond the hyphens, it's the whole obsesion with race."

Yeah, we're undeniably obsessed with race issues. It's unavoidable in a country with our history, and I'm not convinced it's altogether unhealthy, all things considered.

"anyway, we still don't want those hyphenated names here because they just remind people of RACE."

I hear you, and you might be surprised to learn that many Americans have a similar attitude. They get sick of hearing about it all the time, and wonder why we can't just move on. As people get older and more experienced, however, they notice the key flaw with such an approach (at least in the United States): only white people have the privilege of not thinking about race. If you're a minority, you're constantly confronted by situations in which you have to second-guess how you'll be perceived and treated. It's a simple fact of life that races exist, and that people are aware of them, and no amount of white people ignoring that fact is going to improve anything.

Some related issues I'd like to raise (if anyone is still reading this): there seems to be some disagreement amongst Venezuelan posters as to how race is construed there. One strain has insisted on Venezuela as a melting pot where everyone is simply a different shade of one single race, while others have referred to more distinct racial/ethnic/national groups. Maybe someone can clarify this situation a bit for me.

To make this more concrete, I did some Wikipedia research on the demographics of Venezuela, which indicated that around half of the population is of mixed background, one fifth is "pure" European, one tenth "pure" African, and very small percentages of natives, Arabs and Asians. I note that the relative size of the African population is roughly the same as the percentage of the US population categorized as black. It seems to me that a lot of the difference in how the groups are perceived may relate to the more mixed nature of the majority group in Venezuela, as compared to the United States? More generally, where do the Asian and middle-eastern peoples fit into the picture? Are they participating in the melting pot, or forming separate enclaves, or what? Are they even referred to as "Venezolanos?"

As a Venezuelan that has been to the United States many times, I can tell you that the obsession many United States Americans have is with the first. The first this the first that. Maybe an obsession with statistics. Now in the Obama case you have two big things together, a first and race. It is for them like a double-header ball game. what happened to the second place?

Chakman . If nobody moved out of you neigborhood when back folks moved in, it must be that wealthy neighborhood where Michael Jordan moved to or one like it. If you tell me it's a blue-collar neighborhood, then I'll really be taken aback. But I will see it as exceptional, becauese sadly all the other cases I know are all about "white flight."

About conspiracy theories on JFK, I'm not oliver stone. My comment was tongue in cheek.

Oh, and about Obama winning. Gotta see it to believe it. I think the US will prefer a white woman than a balck man. Let's see if I end up right.

OK RR, I get your point. The problem is that you don't get mine. Beyond the hyphens, it's the whole obsesion with race. I saw many other articles from this "world sees america" series and this is the one with the most comments of all the ones I saw. Why? Because the interviewed subject drove it home mentioning the great demon of American society: race. I accept your explanation for the hyphens. It makes sense the way you say it, as a symbol of diversity, preserving the culture, etc. .... anyway, we still don't want those hyphenated names here because they just remind people of RACE.

FF already responded to VG, so I guess it's my turn to respond to "What if", as one of those loco Obama supporters.

So...let's see...

What if said:

"Many of you say that if Obama wins... racism wil disappear. Ha! Keep dreaming."

I don't recall anyone saying that. It just shows that him getting this far, and perhaps becoming president, shows that we might not be quite as racist as some people here would like to imagine.
Otherwise, how could he have gotten this far? Why are the mostly "Blanco gringo" states voting for him in the primaries?

"If Obama turns out to be a bad president ... you will not see another black president again. It's the race stupid. "Let's give the negro a chance, just like the one we gave that catholic guy back in the 60s, so we can show that all men are created equal in this country" but that's it. By the way, if he begins to really think he has the power, we'll take him out, just like with the catholic guy."

If you actually believe that....that's sad....
The whole point of voting in the president is getting the right PERSON for the job...not whether they are a woman, black, white, older, mormon, etc.... but seeing their qualifications overall...

"So, if Obama wins, white folks will not move out of neighborhoods when "colored people" move in?"

None of my neighbors did.

It must really make you angry that so many people of differing ethnicities live in the same neighborhood, huh?

RR. I like your post it is very clear. Anyway I am Venezuelan of Portuguese grandparents. I want to say you that here in Venezuela, I go to the Portuguese club, we have portuguese weddings, even speak portuguese, even four genertion after come here from island Madeira still speaking portuguese. Venezuela is a country that respect culture. In Venezuela everybody dance "tambores" (african drum) coming from 500 year ago from the black people. The music is here still, after 500 years. Anyway, to show more, my grandfather was call "el portu" by the people here but no problem. A negro work in our grocery store and everybody call him "el negro", and he call me "catirrusio" (dirty blondy). That is the way here in Venezuela. We not are serious about the race. For this, we are very surprised that all this nicnames is so bad in USA. I understand we are diferent. I understand your post. Yes, we are diferent. For we, race is not serious.

"And he didn't get into the issue of government forms. They don't ask you race."

Most government forms in the United States do not ask for race, and the few that do always include the option of not specifying. It is explicitly illegal to discriminate against someone on the basis of race, national origin, gender, etc., and there is a federal agency charged with jumping down the throat of anyone who does so. Data on race is gathered only for statistical purposes, so the government (and society at large) has some idea of who's being left behind.

Running through this discussion is the idea that if the government doesn't ask your race on forms, it can't be discriminating. However, most people know this to be false. There are any number of more subtle race indicators. Looking at what happens in, for example, France provides evidence that not asking for race on government forms simply makes it easier to get away with discrimination (since offenders can facilely claim that they weren't aware of race), and ignore the overall effects of racism (which cannot be measured).

"I agree with Nelson that the hyphen is a tag, like a star of david on your arm. Jews were OBLIGATED to wear it. Same goes with your hyphened status in the US."

Wow, what an incredibly ignorant and offensive thing to say. First of all, the hyphenated labels are almost universally self-applied. There is no Gestapo running around forcing people to use hyphenated terms. Indeed, the most-used hyphenated term (African-American) has recently gone out of fashion, exactly because black people decided they'd rather be called "black." It's all about respecting peoples' feelings on how they'd like to be identified. Also, unlike the case of Jews in Europe, it's typically very easy to determine an American's race simply by looking at him, so it makes no difference what you call him. Everyone is going to be just as aware of race regardless.

"Racism in homes I understand (it happens here), but having it institutionalized? I think it's wrong."

So do Americans. That's why we did away with every vestige of institutionalized racism 40 years ago. What you guys seem to be missing is that having the institutions pretend to ignore race is actually an insidious form of institutionalized racism. The fact is that races, and racism, exist whether the government aknowledges it or not, and having the government ignore it makes things worse, not better. It makes the oppressed people invisible.

To put it another way: while a genuinely post-racial society would indeed not bother to aknowledge race, it's a fallacy to imagine that ignoring race is a productive way of creating a post-racial society.

Also, are we to understand that you don't think racism is wrong "in homes?"

"But I feel Venezuela, because of the TRUE melting pot that it is, is more evolved in this matter. The US will be social-racially like Venezuela in around 100 years. "

"More evolved," eh? It's pretty ignorant to think that the United States and Venezuela are on the same path in this regard, and extremely chauvinistic to imagine that Venezuela is 100 years ahead of the United States... The social and demographic dynamics of the United States are vastly different than in Venezuela (ongoing immigration, religious pluralism, etc). The two countries are simply on very different courses when it comes to these kinds of demographic issues, and have been for quite some time.

"It will be a true melting pot and not just a fondue of different white cheeses with multicolored vegetables as a side order."

Good metaphor. But, as I said a few posts ago, it's far from clear that a "true melting pot" is a desirable goal, at least for the United States. It sounds nice and all, but you quickly find out that most people aren't all that excited about having their ethnic identity subsumed and eliminated. Which makes it problematic for a country committed to large-scale immigration, among other things. A better approach is to learn to respect and embrace diversity, and so create a place where all races and welcomed and valued. That's what the hyphenated-American thing is about: creating a way for people to take pride in their background (African-, or Italian-, or whatever-) while emphasizing their common membership in our nation and society (-American). Yes, we still have a long way to go towards creating a utopia where all ehtnicities can live in peace, but it still beats ignoring racism in the naive hope that it will somehow disappear.

Many of you say that if Obama wins... racism wil disappear. Ha! Keep dreaming. If Obama turns out to be a bad president ... you will not see another black president again. It's the race stupid. "Let's give the negro a chance, just like the one we gave that catholic guy back in the 60s, so we can show that all men are created equal in this country" but that's it. By the way, if he begins to really think he has the power, we'll take him out, just like with the catholic guy.

So, if Obama wins, white folks will not move out of neighborhoods when "colored people" move in?

Yeah ...hey, wanna buy a bridge?

Many of you are puting words in Mr Agelvis's mouth. He never said that Venezuela was not racist. The opposite, he says it is, just differently. What he is saying is that the media does not make a big issue out of RACE like US media does. He is simply saying that the hyphenated races are not a common media practice. He is, through thIs example (tone, intenion, etc) cRiticizing that practice. It is true. If an "afro-venezuelan" athlete wins a medal in something, you will NEVER read a Venezuelan newspaper mentioning his race, same goes fOr a blond "euro-venezuelan." And he didn't get into the issue of government forms. They don't ask you race. I agree with Nelson that the hyphen is a tag, like a star of david on your arm. Jews were OBLIGATED to wear it. Same goes with your hyphened status in the US. Racism in homes I understand (it happens here), but having it institutionalized? I think it's wrong. It's only my opinion. But I feel Venezuela, because of the TRUE melting pot that it is, is more evolved in this matter. The US will be social-racially like Venezuela in around 100 years. It will be a true melting pot and not just a fondue of different white cheeses with multicolored vegetables as a side order.

Speaking of immigrant and non-immigrant nations, I think that's another important aspect to consider when comparing race relations between the United States and Venezuela. Not to endorse some of the ignorant comments which appeared previously about Venezuela's record of taking on immigrants, but in the last few decades there's been an enormous difference. The United States takes on around 1 million new immigrants each year (legally, the total number including illegal immigration is much higher). In Venezuela, meanwhile, more people move out of the country each year than move in. So, approaches to relations based on the idea of "we're all just " are probably much more appropriate to Venezuela, where the demographics are more settled, than the United States, where they've been in constant flux for many generations, with no sign of stabilizing any time soon. To put it simply, people are migrating here much faster than they can be assimilated into "un-hyphenated" Americans, which kind of ties our hands.

Another important difference to consider: well over 90% of Venezuelans identify as Roman Catholic. No such unanimity exists in the United States. So there's another commonality that binds together all the different peoples of Venezuela, but has no analogue in the United States.

I really don't know why if someone wants to refer to themselves, with a hyphenated description, it is automatically a bad thing.

in the US, 90 % of the time, it's just something we say to describe our heritage....and that question comes up occasionally, as USamericans are curious, and might not know. So they ask. Big deal.

It's almost like Venezuelans are saying "we don't care what race you are, because we will never be curious about your heritage, or anyone else's"

That strikes me as the same attitude as other non-immigrant nations. I expect this attitude in Switzerland and Norway......

Of coarse, I'm hoping I have it all wrong.....

It is a fool who tries to say that "we're not racist here" but that "your country is so racist." Racism is a human condition -- it doesn't believe in national boundaries. Just ignore people who try and tell you otherwise.

These hyphenations are bizarre! Note that Barack supposedly has a White mother and a Black Father; so at most one could presume to be 50% white and 50% black. Of course neither parent is neccessarily pure anything, assuming such a thing is even possible nowadays!

Is it not a little crazy to call anyone with a single drop of black, asian, native American, hispanic blood as having that ethnic label? What value does this labeling provide, except to divide us into tribal groups for exploitation?

It leads to the nonsense beliefs of evangelicals, Bill O'Reilly, GW Bush, and the rest of the pandering crowd of bigots!

To THE CHAKMAN.
I think I got to understand your point. There is not other way to treat this race issue in US as you already have done in the last century. And I think it is working, with logical bumps and misunderstandings. We treated the problem in another way. Maybe because we never were as polarized as in the United States.
I want to point out a recent misplaced commentary by a ESPN sports commentator about Tiger Woods and how the other players should lynch him. Rev. Shapton wanted the commentator fired (and her career destroyed, what a nice reverend of what religion?), Tiger Woods on the other hand, said he understood it was just an irrelevant mistake. Two ways of focusing the matter, that show the worst of racism in Sharpton and increased my admiration for Tiger Woods.

"What bothers me is that they have the BALLS to look down on us because we commit the sin of talking about race forthrightly, because we have the audacity to use words like "negro" and "catire" matter of factly and without getting our collective panties all up in a bunch."

From where I sit, y'all have been getting looked down on not because you talk about race forthrightly, but because you don't. Frankly, I'm stunned that you could wring such a conclusion out of this conversation. Most of what I've seen from the Venezuelan side is a lot of cheap cop-outs about how race doesn't exist there, or the government has a don't-ask-don't-tell policy, or (worst of all) dark people are lazy and get what they deserve. I mean, wasn't the original post all about how explicitly race is aknowledged in the United States? Which side is equivocating, and which side is being honest?

The stuff about "negro" is a red herring. Nobody has lectured anyone about that; you've simply been informed that, up here, that word is no longer acceptable (nor is gringo; thank the Mexicans for ruining that one for you). This isn't a value judgement: everyone understands that certain words acquire ugly connotations in certain times and places. I haven't seen any attempt to universalize that into an accusation of racism. On the contrary, I've seen a lot of cheap attempts to claim that the acceptability of the term "negro" in Venezuela somehow implies that racism does not exist. To which I'd point out that you can call someone in the United States "black" without any worries at all (in fact, this term is preferred to "African-American" these days, the latter being used mostly for recent immigrants from Africa).

I'm also struck by the post-colonial insecurity: "USAmericans" politely tell you that, although they know you don't mean it that way, the words you're using are considered racial slurs in the United States, and y'all bug out and start beating your chests about cultural imperialism. I expect this from the peanut gallery, of course, but it's somewhat surprising coming from someone who has already demonstrated so much insight into the ways perceptions of the United States are exploited to manipulate the Latin American political consciousness. But then, perhaps that just goes to show why such ploys are so effective.

Some more general food for thought: although the "melting pot" ideal is entrenched in American political discourse, there remain serious questions as to whether that has ever truly been a widely-accepted ideal in the United States, or if it even should be. Certainly, the trend in much of the West has been the other way: towards multi-culturalism. The United States has always treaded a somewhat unique path between melting-pot assimilation and multi-culturalism, so it's unclear to me that Venezuelan lessons about assimilation have much relevance to the United States. There are also the differences in scale and complexity of the two socieities to consider. At this point, I can't resist pointing out that the insistence by various posters that the United States should be learning about race relations from Venezuela smacks of chauvinism and cultural imperialism.

But don't take any of this the wrong way: of all of the dialogues generated by Amar's series of blog posts, the Venezuela episodes have been, by far, the most informed, civil, educational and interesting. I was very near giving up on following this project (which has mostly generated very predictable, polarized comments) until these recent episodes, and so I applaud you all for your contributions.

Responses to:

"Negro:

If I am in USA with a friend or relative, I want to continue be called Negro, period. I don't care is this is an offend to Americans, but not for us.
Over there there a whole bunch of people with inferiority complex.
I don't want any US person to tell us how we should behave."

What, like the "good professor" tells US citizens how to behave? LOL. Like the Venezuelans are telling us how to behave? My original response to Cam was just an FYI, on how these terms would be interpreted within our culture.....

Of course, I'm not really surprised that you think that we all have a "bunch of people with an inferiority complex" because our culture operates differently from yours.....

That is...if you think the US has a culture....many people in LA don't really think we have one, and are just a convenient piece of land to move to....

"F. Toro"

"There is a Black TV channel BET, magazines only for blacks. Medicine: Could you believe that each race has to be under different medicine or medical treatment? This happens only here."

No one forces you to watch BET. I really don't understand your point about medicine. Do you mean that African Americans get (willingly) screened for Sickle cell anemia, HBP, and Diabetes more?

Again, no one is forcing you to live in the US.

"V lady"

"What bothers me is that they have the BALLS to look down on us because we commit the sin of talking about race"

Um, what? The "good professor's" comments about us was what started this...him looking down on us...for "mentioning the race" of a Bolivian carnival goer....

Basically the exact opposite of what you said.

Cam:

I never accused you of anything, especially saying that racism doesn't exist in LA. Racism exists all around the world. It will be here as long as humans are. It will just manifest itself in different ways.

"FYI: Gringo and negro are not insults nor slur here."

Yes I know. They are here. just informing you and the people on the board. Unfortunately....because of the difference between our culture, it will always be taken the wrong way...see responses above....

"I know their meaning in USA, and again, my recommendation is a change of attitude. United States could teach a lesson to all Latin America in many things, but regarding tolerance between races, you are light years behind us."

Obviously, opinions differ here.

I really just see it as different sides of the same coin. Ours seems rougher, and filled with DIRECT conflict, while your seems smoother. To you. Not to us. It just seems more nefarious.

The USA is a vastly different culture, so it will have a different response. We can't just "change our attitude" to yours (Venezuela's) because our history is so different. That said, just because we are different from you....doesn't mean we are dealing with it the wrong way.

One other problem (which again, I am not saying you believe) is that throughout LA.... the USA is thought of as not having any culture at all.... a culture free environment where you can just do what you did before, and live a private life.

Oh well. So much for communication and understanding.

To THE CHAKMAN
I clearly said that we are racists too. Every one is very aware of the whiteness of their skin, even the ones that are not very white. But we are of a more tolerant kind. The lack of race driven crimes in our society proves that, as well as the browness of our people.
Many hispanics in US are poor and live in poor neighborhoods, that happened to be also predominantly black. What do you expect their reaction if many crimes are commited by blacks in those places? If the main criminals were irish then they would have a similar attitude against the irish. I am sure they are getting very aware of tatooed latinos with funny pants, that happened to be the uniform of hispanic delinquents.
The dark skined people I was talking about are the ones that live in Venezuela. Why are they in average poorer or less educated? Racism, bad parenthood, lack of educational institutions in our country, etc, etc. It is a fact. But it is also true that dark skinned people are every year more educated and able to get a better social position.
I live in Venezuela. FYI: Gringo and negro are not insults nor slur here. They could be, but it depends in the tone and situation. That's why I say we are very contradictory in this race issue. I know their meaning in USA, and again, my recommendation is a change of attitude. United States could teach a lesson to all Latin America in many things, but regarding tolerance between races, you are light years behind us.

F. Toro:

Blame those "crazy, convoluted mass of racial attitudes" to rich white elitist (ugh!) "progressives" and race hustlers perpetuating victimology (blacks and Latinos). Those are who demanded these race categorizations decades ago and who created all this mess.

Que se jodan ellos...

They should learn from another minority, one that doesn't need self-pity, and which is the richest group of all: the "Asian-Americans."

V. Lady,

You know, what bothers me is not that gringos have some crazy, convoluted mass of racial attitudes that really make no sense to me. I mean, God knows they have a complicated history with this stuff, and though I find their attitudes really weird, I'm in no position to judge. Ellos son blancos y se entienden.

What bothers me is that they have the BALLS to look down on us because we commit the sin of talking about race forthrightly, because we have the audacity to use words like "negro" and "catire" matter of factly and without getting our collective panties all up in a bunch. THAT's what sets me off. The ONE subject where we actually could teach them a thing or two, and they lecture us!

No joda, chica, que se laven ese...

F. Toro:

Thank you for the post, most of us (not from US) agree.
Americans say "mixed race marriage" how funny is that. USA is the only country in the world to have this expression.

Also people here were not be able to be marry if they were different race. Even in 1962! They call mixed race MONGRELS, so in Latin American we are mongrels?
Here is such a big deal be mixed.

That is why they want to categorize people into certain races....but AMERICAN DO NOT ACCEPT "Mestizaje", so how in this world they will be a melting pot?

Diversity, this expression,now in fashion, is invented by "whites liberals wanna be" because they are racist to, they don't even know they are racist! Diversity is a kind racism to keep people labeled. Martin Luther King. Jr. was dreaming with integration, but our society is disintegrating.

Sad, but Malcom X is most popular in schools that MLK.
There is a Black TV chanel BET, magazines only for blacks. Medicine: Could you believe that each race has to be under different medicine or medical treatment? This happens only here.

I love USA my second home, but not this distortions about races, because is schizophrenic.

The_Chakman:

Your answer 8

In Venezuela we say Negro without insulting. My family and friends call me "Negro" or "negrito", "Hola Negro, como te fue hoy"? Hi Blacky how was your day? I am black, I am the darkest one, so what?!!!

This is not an insult, this is friendly and tender to call me, now, if some one I love say " Victor....."
I would feel strange, like if that person is mad...

If I am in USA with a friend or relative, I want to continue be called Negro, period. I don't care is this is an offend to Americans, but not for us.
Over there there a whole bunch of people with inferiority complex.
I don't want any US person to tell us how we should behave.

Sincerely

Victor,

From Venezuela with Love

Back again.
All comments shed some light on the true nature of the game.
Confuse the pliable masses.
Punch and counter punch;
Man,what power?
The disposessed of all colors/castes been kept fighting each other so long,
Simply lost track or the hour.
Or, of the 'Oz Wizard' cowering behind the smoke-obscured curtain.
You know who I mean?
The one throwing out the appeasement crumbs -
a little longer chain, a little more power coupled with just a littel more (always revokable on demand) priviledge -
enjoying the inevitable, resulting scramble and scrum.
And, desperately always ringing the bell signalling the next round of mayhem.
Hoping to witness continual mutual neutralization, if not outright, cancellation of any challengers before the prospect of any awakening materializes.
Divide and conquer - same, same, same!
Terrorize with well placed blight. (Aren't you really fortunate to not have to live there?)
Keep 'em hooked on the 'White'.
Never provide a chance to ever see the light.
Never, ever, allow a sliver of light.
People just might, just might, realize ...
we are all (Gasp and double Gasp!!) members of the same HUMAN race.

TO Cam:

on Answers 2 and 4

Well, if there is no no such thing as race identification in Venezuuela....how could you hear of crimes towards someone of a certain race...? Be it mob lynching, or any other (more modern) crime?

on Answers 3 and 7:

This helps to illustrate our points actually. It tells us how you percieve Blacks in the US. Hey, it's an honest answer....I appreciate it.

Answer 8: Both "gringo" and "negro" are considered
insults / slurs in the US, just so you know.... an FYI.

I'm sure this fact doesn't help communications between cultures...

After reading many valuable comments here, I conclude:
1. Yes, Venezuela and all Latin America are Racists. Not very different from the rest of the world.
2. But, at least in Venezuela, where I live, I haven't heard of any race driven assesination or crime. This speaks a lot about the tolerance of our society. I think because everybody knows they have a black or an indian among their ancestors. And the white immigrants got married or had kids with mestizos.
3. Dark skinned people are the less educated and that's why you don't see many pictures of them in TV, politics or science. Dark skined (it is difficult to find a "pure" black here) people, that are educated and honorable, can get respect and good positions in our society. And since 1958 you see more and more of them in those positions.
4. Never, ever, I have heard of a Venezuelan mob linching chinese, africans, jews, arabs or even gringos, just because they are from a different race. I am sure some "whiter" venezuelans won't marry "blacker" ones, but they don't kill each other nor request race or religion in their job applications.
5. Our racism is more subtle.
6. Our apologies to chinese or any other group that are offended by us. Some Venezuelan, black, white or of any other in between color, have a total lack of education and respect for people that are different (like many people in more advanced countries).But I am sure you can find more friendly people among us that jerks with bad taste for jokes.
7. Black people in US have suffered racism as no one of their race in Latin America, and longer. But a change of attitude would be welcome. Some African Americans behave as racists too. Many hispanics in USA just see you as dangerous because they live in dangerous neighborhoods with high rate of black criminals, and that RAPPER attitude doesn't help.
8. Gringos are welcome in Venezuela. If you are african gringo, and somebody call you NEGRO, smile. The one that said that surely will be black according to US standards and is just being friendly. Just learn some Spanish and call him back " Epa,Noche sin luna" (ey, Night without Moon), both will laugh and get a beer. If the guy is white, "cucaracha de panadería" will work (bakery cocoroach).

Is this a joke post? Professor from Venezuela doesn't want to acknowledge racism because he is one who benefits from it. He must not realize that we can see Ven. television here in the U.S.: no black faces unless you're the maid, a dancer or a baseball player. This must be a joke.

Your experience in Kansas City is not due to hyphenated cultural ID; it's due to how homogeneous societies deal with the introduction of foreign cultures. Divisions between people with different backgrounds are a given -- they will not go away. Hyphenated identities acknowledge (dare I say celebrate?) different cultures while uniting all of us over a common denominator: American.

In this way, hyphenated identities accomplish two things: They allow communities preserve unique cultural identities while uniting all these unique communities under the umbrella of America. It says I can both preserve my [African, Latin, Asian, etc.] identity while also be accepted as American. This duel identity is not possible in France, Japan, or other countries that don't do hyphens. You're either native or foreign. Japanese or Korean (who happens to live in Japan). French or Les Arab. I certainly would not uphold these societies as models of immigrant integration.

I would much rather acknowledge that we are not all the same up front than pretend those differences do not exist.

Now, how is it that we're thinking of Senator Obama as an African-American, when in reality he is biracial and has presumably chosen to identify himself as African-American (unlike Tiger Woods, who apparently embraces all 3 of his ethnic/racial heritages)? From what I've heard, Senator Obama went on quite a lengthy search for his racial identity and considers it important, so why shouldn't the rest of us?

Coming from an Hispanic, I find Mr. Agelvis' comments more than a little hypocritical. Hispanics in the US (note that the term is "Hispanic", not "Hispanic-American" or "Latino", not "Latino-American") insist on an ethnic identification that not only doesn't recognize dual identities, but focuses on the "ethnic" and not the "American".

"Some racism exists (family type), but not in the media, government forms, educational forms, job applications, etc."

That race is not aknowledged in those forums does not mean that racism does not *exist* in those forums. Just look at, say, France, for another example. Purposefully ignoring race is often the most effective way of encouraging the spread of racism.

"He tries to say that Americans cannot forget race (or CLANS) even in an article about a carnival dancer. MANY (not all) of you cannot understand this because you are American."

What you all don't seem to be getting is that the luxury of not thinking about race is itself the hallmark of membership in the privileged race. Everyone else in your society, meanwhile, gets confronted by it all the time and, worse, is browbeaten into not talking about it, lest they disturb the illusions of the power group. Many of you cannot understand this because you are not American, and so don't have any groups of hyphenated-Americans around to remind you that racism is real.

But, hey, why confront the real problems in your own society when you can spout cheap platitudes about how you're superior to the gringos?

Nelson
Perhaps in your classroom no one fixates on race and this is good. However you know very well how the people caste each other concerning color and social status, to imply this doesn’t exist in Venezuela is absurd. I suggest you get out of the classroom, tour the countryside taking in fresh air and reality. The reality is that no political idealism/ socialism, communism etc., has the power to change peoples racial preferences period.

Martin Luther King understood the reality of racism.. his response, “I Have a Dream”.
Whoever declares Venezuela racism/ discrimination as mild is just plain dreaming.

What is Pres. Chavez doing when he bellows at the U.S. people “Gringos” and worse. That is setting the bar quite low for everyone.

G.Norias

Having spent several years in Venezuela, pre and post Chavez, I must say that I saw and heard much racism. TV personalities and newscasters are all light skinned, print media ads-all light skinned. The country is obsessed with its beauty queen industry, with all contestants light skinned. Hair straightening is big, even among men. If a family suspects that a son or daughter may be dating someone "too dark", they inquire about color of gums, and other intimate parts to determine if there is much non-evident dark ancestry. There is a huge population of Columbian immigrants who do lots of the dirty work. They are universally denounced, and will never be allowed to call themselves "Columbian-Venezuelans" because Venezuelans do not want them, regardless of their color. The professor should understand that his country has an idea of what is Venezuelan, and Columbians are not welcome, thus no hypen will ever be necessary.
Under Chavez, there has been some xenophobia toward caucasians of all origin, not only Americans.Venezuela has a small population of indigenous people, who are spoken of as exotic creatures, different from "civilized" persons. It is a very colonialistic and patronizing attitude toward them. The fancy clubs generally have understandings among the members not to admit persons who are "too dark" themselves, or married to a partner who is "too dark". The clergy is almost all white, because rules until relatively recently did not permit persons who were mixed or "too dark" to join their ranks. The society is rather obsessed with establishing their lineages directly back to Spain, and many persons sneek in a "de" before their names to appear even more Spanish, from the nobility. The thinking is that if your are so "Spanish", you don't have any dark ancestors.

"What baffles me is this: if USAmericans understand that race is a social construct, why can't you accept that different societies construct it differently?"

Oh, we accept that just fine (once we're exposed to it; some people are simply ignorant). What we don't accept is the cheap tactic of insisting that racism doesn't exist in Venezuela (or whereever) because the local constructs don't align with ours. Certain people seem to think that they can fool credulous Americans into believing that Latin America is a post-racial paradise by pointing out that the categories are different down south, and that nobody there wants to talk about the issue. Meanwhile, everyone knows perfectly well that Latin Americans are among the most virulent racists on the planet, and that societies that avoid discussions of race typically are the worst offenders.

Beyond the offense this approach presents to the intellects of Americans, it is an insidious and divisive piece of post-colonial identity politics. I.e., implicit in this argument is the reduction of "racism" to refer only to its manifestation in the United States. Everyone else, then, gets a free pass to not only pretend that they aren't racists themselves (ha!) but to actually sermonize about how superior they are. This, in turn, entrenches and perpetuates the racism inherent in those societies.

The dynamics are just as you described in posts a few days back: the USA is defined as essentially evil (in this case, racist), allowing the outsider to define himself as inherently good (in this case, non-racist). Meanwhile, the actual reality marches onward, undeterred.

Venezuelan Lady, you are correct. Many Central Americans are very racist. I live in Washington, D.C. and I find many of the Salvadorans and other Central Americans to be racists towards blacks and Afro Latinos. When I speak in Spanish, these racist Salvadorans in the D.C. area look at me as if I am from another planet. They say to me, how did you learn to speak Spanish. I tell their ignorant behinds, both my parents are from Rio Piedras, Puerto Rico. I attended Howard University undergraduate and graduate schools. I am a professional black Hispanic man, but many of the Salvadorans look at people like me and Obama as beneath them.

Venezuelan Lady, you are correct. Many Central Americans are very racist. I live in Washington, D.C. and I find many of the Salvadorans and other Central Americans to be racists towards blacks and Afro Latinos. When I speak in Spanish, these racist Salvadorans in the D.C. area look at me as if I am from another planet. They say to me, how did you learn to speak Spanish. I tell their ignorant behinds, both my parents are from Rio Piedras, Puerto Rico. I attended Howard University undergraduate and graduate schools. I am a professional black Hispanic man, but many of the Salvadorans look at people like me and Obama as beneath them.

Dear Afro-Cubano,

You are right! We can't be hide this because is true. If you ask a person, especially here in US, to describe a Mexican, he or she would say, brown, short, chubby, Indian or indigenous, but at the first she or he wouldn't think of a white person. On TV is way different, every one is white, including the maids! So is a distortion of the reality and racism. That is true.

Also indigenous from Central America and Mexico, our "Hispanics" are racist against blacks, more racist than any white latino.

I am from Venezuela and I will vote for Obama, but I doubt that a "hispanic" (C. American ) would vote for him....

Ralp:

You'r right! ha ha ha really goofy-correct ha ha,

"....In this goofy-correct designation of races, why am I not "European-American" ( I am "white") and why are those from Egypt, not also "African-Americans"? ...........

Egiptians are africans! and they are semitic mediterranean (like me).

In this goofy-correct designation of races, why am I not "European-American" ( I am "white") and why are those from Egypt, not also "African-Americans"? Besides, who decides what each group should be called? Mexicans have been called "Latino", then "Chicano", "Hispanic". Blacks are "Negro", "Colored", "People of Color", "Afro", "African-American". What signal, from where, should one look for, in order to be "correct" that day or month?

This guy and these other wanna be white Latinos who's say's racism doesn't exist in Venezuela, Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, Puerto Rico