Comments (339)

Sorry about the late reply.

For the Palestinian Christian who's mother and father were killed by Israeli military, I assume he has already exhausted any legal means of retribution, is completely entitled to track down and extract retribution from the killer and his accomplices.

But the minute he kills, maims, or injures someone else, he becomes just as bad as those soldiers.

I must be missing her point?

Should I get terrorism, and why? We have small occasional bouts of Christian terrorism, but we live in America, and shouldn't be laden with the problems of the religions of the middle east. America is suppose to be a democratic society, but even with that we have problems because of religions that do not respect other's.

They've created that problem themselves, and it shouldn't be an American problem. People seem to be dragging American's into those issues for political and religious reasons. Those political choices affect America, maybe not with the extent of terrorism, but through other issues.

The real question people should be asking is;

Why is there terrorism?

If you resist without understanding why or what it is you are resisting, then terrorism will never go away. That very resistance with out understanding will only make the circle bigger.

Fix the problem, then there won't be any alleged "terrorism."

oh, historically as I understand; Canaanites lived on that land. Nomadic tribes came in from work and travels and killed them because some psychotic person said it was given to them, talk about terrorism.

I must be missing her point?

Should I get terrorism, and why? We have small occasional bouts of Christian terrorism, but we live in America, and shouldn't be laden with the problems of the religions of the middle east. America is suppose to be a democratic society, but even with that we have problems because of religions that do not respect other's.

They've created that problem themselves, and it shouldn't be an American problem. People seem to be dragging American's into those issues for political and religious reasons. Those political choices affect America, maybe not with the extent of terrorism, but through other issues.

The real question people should be asking is;

Why is there terrorism?

If you resist without understanding why or what it is you are resisting, then terrorism will never go away. That very resistance with out understanding will only make the circle bigger.

Fix the problem, then there won't be any alleged "terrorism."

Don't you think that arguing a case on the basis of Palestinians/Jews owning land (smaller than Michigan's U.P. mind you) fifteen THOUSAND years ago is rather silly? Rick or Allan, do you know FOR SURE who owned that land? Stick to the facts (or opinions), gentlemen.

i think most of you are missing the point of the article. it's here to show the american view of terrorism isn't accurate, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. the israeli soldiers view it as terrorism because that is their particular point of view. sure, it would've been a better idea to post this article alongside one showing the palestinian viewpoint, but let's just let those bygones be bygones. The article isn't to give a poor israel point of view, nor is it here to directly compare the us and israel. newsflash: we are 2 different countries. this article is just trying to show the reality of terrorism or being attacked by retaliation or whatever you want to call it. don't get caught up in terminology. this is just trying to show americans that the amount of terrorism we have, which mainly involves 9-11, a few previous bombings, etc., is nothing to what it could be. most of you have gotten too caught up in taking sides to realize the article is just to give americans another viewpoint on terrorism.

Today’s Post Global GPB

http://www.secure-x-001.net/SecureGeo/Issue/SecureObservationComments.asp

And the topic of discussion is...

“Will Bush rescue the Annapolis accord as he visits the Middle East for essentially the first time?”

And the answer provided by the author is...

No Annapolis rescue...just another photo op to enable radical Islamists.

“Most analysts believe President Bush won't start crafting constructive policies now, in his last year, when he has had no vision for the region for 7 years. What most thought leaders are asking is whether the President has any real priority beyond an attempt to reach for some type of better legacy than he has now. Few believe he does and that will make it difficult for this trip to achieve much if anything other than photo ops. Unfortunately, it provides the opportunity for US opponents, particularly radical Islamists, to achieve much as they direct anger and rage toward the most unpopular US President in memory.”

I concur. Ata boy W!

From another thread:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/saul_singer/2007/12/to_help_pakistan_fight_iran/all_comments.html

You know this discussion about the apparently growing alliance between India, the US and Israel is not really off topic. It is very central to the subject of this thread on what the future holds for Pakistan, given the heated Indo-Pakistani feud over Jammu and Kashmir.

The front page news yesterday was the first ever crossing of the $100 per barrel threshold for oil. This is a 100% price increase in just the last year, and this trend is likely to continue given the increasing demand for energy in China, India and the rest of the developing world. We have already passed “Peak Oil” production capability, so availability will decline in coming years as demand rapidly increases. This will make China, Russia and Iran natural allies as the following article notes:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/GF04Ad07.html

June 4, 2005

“The military implementation of the George W Bush administration's unilateralist foreign policy is creating monumental changes in the world's geostrategic alliances. The most significant of these changes is the formation of a new triangle comprised of China, Iran and Russia.

Growing ties between Moscow and Beijing in the past 18 months is an important geopolitical event that has gone practically unnoticed. China's premier, Wen Jiabao, visited Russia in September 2004. In October 2004, President Vladimir Putin visited China. During the October meeting, both China and Russia declared that Sino-Russian relations had reached "unparalleled heights". In addition to settling long-standing border issues, Moscow and Beijing agreed to hold joint military exercises in 2005. This marks the first large-scale military exercises between Russia and China since 1958.

The joint military exercises complement a rapidly growing arms trade between Moscow and Beijing. China is Russia's largest buyer of military equipment. In 2004, China was reported to have signed deals worth more than $2 billion for Russian arms. These included naval ships and submarines, missile systems and aircraft. According to the head of Russia's armed forces, Anatoliy Kvashnin, "our defense industrial complex is working for this country [China], supplying the latest models of arms and military equipment, which the Russian army does not have". Russia's relations with China are not limited to military trade. In the past five years, non-military trade between Russia and China has increased at an average annual rate of nearly 20%. Moscow and Beijing have targeted non-military trade to reach $60 billion by 2010, from $20 billion in 2004. One of the key components of commercial trade is Russian energy exports to China.

In early 2005, Moscow agreed to more than double electricity exports to China, to 800 million kilowatt hours (kWh), by 2006. Officials at Russia's electricity monopoly, Unified Energy Systems, are also courting Chinese investment in the development and renovation of Russia's electricity system. In October 2004, the China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) and Russia's Gazprom signed a series of agreements intended to study how Russia can best supply natural gas to China. At the same time, Russia signed specific agreements with China on oil exports.

Russia's oil shipments to China are slated to reach 10 million tons in 2005, increasing to 15 million tons in 2006. All of these shipments will be made by rail. However, this agreement was overshadowed by talks concerning the construction of an oil pipeline from Siberia to northern China. Russia has been pondering an oil pipeline to China for nearly 10 years. In 2002, plans for this pipeline received a boost when Moscow pledged to invest $2 billion in an oil pipeline running from the Siberian city of Angarsk to Daqing in northeastern China…”

The article goes on to say that at the request of Japan, who is willing to finance the entire $10 Billion plus cost of the pipeline, the pipeline will terminate at Russia's Pacific port of Nakhodka. The pipeline will still pass within 40 miles of the Russian border with China, so it will be a simple matter to add a spur directly into China.

So what we have brewing here is an alliance between China, Russia, Iran and possibly Japan. I can see Pakistan and Afghanistan joining this alliance. The question then is which way would Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and the other Gulf Oil States go? Iraq would undoubtedly go with their Shiite brethren in Iran. The presence of the Zionist occupiers of Palestine in the US_Israel_India axis of evil would probably drive the Suni Gulf Oil States to hold their nose and join the Russia_China_Iran axis.

So if I were you Dolivaw, I would reevaluate your growing ties with the US_Israel axis of evil. This would also tend to keep your large Muslim minority from attempting to secede. The future world superpowers will be in the Russia_China_Iran axis.

Here is and interesting post by JDLEDELL @ December 27, 2007 7:26 AM from Yossi Melmans’s blog:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/yossi_melman/2007/12/hopeful_for_bethlehem/all_comments.html

Yossi - Pay no attention to the extremists on both sides that populate this blog. I am extremely pessimistic about the chances for peace. I have dozens of relatives living in West Bank settlements and I have been going to Israel, at least annually, for more than 40 years. I have seen it all, the good, the bad and the ugly of this situation.

It's easy to put the blame on the Palestinians for they have made numerous mistakes which have significantly aggravated the problem. Suicide bombers, rockets and armed resistance are just a few of the well known errors. However, Jewish mistakes are less well known. The settlement enterprise is the primary problem. My sister and her family were one of the first to move from Haifa to the West Bank after the 67 war. Settlements were planned with three express goals: first, dividing up the west bank with Jews so that a viable Palestinian state could never emerge. Second, to surround Jerusalem with Jewish settlements so that Palestinians could never use it as their capital (to that end, in 1967 Israel tripled the size of Jerusalem's historical dimensions). Third, to build on top of and control the West Bank aquifers.

I’m sure you are aware that Israel is not really trying to forge a peace agreement with the Palestinians. The settlement game is still being played. Some of my settler relatives are being recruited to seed a new settlement in Atarot, for a 11,000 person city on the doorstep of Ramallah. Others are being recruited to seed Giv’at Yael, a 20,000 person settlement near Bethlehem. Plans have been developed to build another new settlement, Shimo’n Hatsedeeq , near Abu Dis.

Eventually the world will catch on to Israel’s word games. Like Jerusalem's expanded boundries, Ma’ale Adumim's municipal boundries extend all the way to Jericho, empty land that can accomodate hundreds of thousands of Israelis. Ariel city boundries are proposed to expand to encompass all the small surrounding settlements that will make Ariel geographically 4 times larger, on the theory Ariel will be allowed to stay under a peace agreement. These kind of games will not lead to “land for peace” or “peace for peace”.

Look at the maps the settlers pass around, you will see four “reservations” for Palestinians with Israel taking all the rest, including the Jordan Valley. This is the game plan and I don’t think any Israeli politician is strong enough to stop it or slow it down. There is no such thing as the status quo, if peace is delayed Israeli settlement expansion will surely prevent the birth of a viable Palestinian state.

This is a recipe for disaster as internal and external Palestinians demand citizenship and a bi-national state. Yossi, our mutual dream of a Jewish homeland will disappear as it has so many times in the past few thousand years. I, for one, find that to be an unforgivable mistake. However, an even worse outcome is possible, the loss of the jewish soul. I have seen IDF and settler depravity first hand in the West Bank. I have two nephews serving in the IDF and they are thugs, who have already lost their souls to hatred, along with numerous of my relatives. I cherish my Jewish faith and the wisdom of the Torah but I see too many Israelis abandoning this wisdom in their greed and visceral hatred for “others”. If we lose our soul, land will not matter.

thanks rick- i ave also found it strange that although israel is completely dependent upon the US supplying all of its weaponry- and funnels billions upon billions of dollars into its economoy for 60 years (the laws of the US limit foreign US aid to 10 years),
that there is not one single israeli troop helping us.

as for any exchange with alan-

this is the most bizarre apology followed by multiple insults i have ever received-

"Sorry for the insult. I don't believe you are for real, but there is always the possibility that I could be wrong. If this unlikely possibility is true, then I apologize and say "peace". "

i will leave alan in peace

see you in the funny papers

PRO-ISRAEL FORCES WANT TO RE-OPEN A PIPELINE FROM IRAQ TO HAIFA, ISRAEL

The fact that American-Israelis in our government are endeavoring to use the war on Iraq as a way for Israel to gain control over oil in the Middle East is rarely reported in the mainstream pro-Israel US media with your average American readership, however it has been reported in Jewish newspapers with Jewish readership and in Israeli papers.

A case in point is the fact that American-Israelis in our government want to "re-open" or re-instate, the pipeline that used to exist between Iraq and Palestine, which is now specifically Haifa, Israel. When Israel was created in 1948, that pipeline was re-directed by Iraq to Syria. Now pro-Israel forces are actively seeking to cut off the pipeline to Syria and re-direct it to Haifa, Israel. For more information on this, please do a Google-search using such keywords such as "Iraq oil pipeline to Haifa, Israel" and see what you come up with.

Just as Israel's connection to the war on Iraq has been kept out of the US mainstream media (as you may have noticed, Israel has not even been mentioned as one of our "allies" in the war on Iraq), this choice nugget of information with regards to Israel's ambition to get a basically free supply of Iraqi oil is also kept out of view for vast American public consumption.

Enough said my friend. I believe that we have exhausted this topic several times over.

Be well.

Rick

I like that you made it clear that every Israeli is a military target ("foot soldier"), even children. My friend, your military target is called terrorism by everyone else.

It is not stolen land. They bought their homes at first. The local populace didn’t like the new immigrants. They tried to eliminate the new immigrants. The new immigrants survived and erected borders. Nobody under the age of 74 who is Palestinian has any memory of living in Israel. For that reason alone, they should agree to live in the other 90% of the former British administered land. They would be residing a whole 20 miles from where their Great Grandparents lived.

Israel settled its 400,000 Jewish refugees who had to flee the Arab countries. The Arab countries didn’t settle its 400,000 refugees. It is the fault of the Arab countries that Palestinians still live in refugee camps. They are identical in language and religion to the surrounding populace. They are not like most immigrants—you can’t tell them apart from the surrounding populace. The goal of keeping them in refugee camps is to build sympathy for them in the multifaceted war to eliminate the Jews. This war includes terrorism, public relations, manipulation of oil money to get poor countries to side with the Arabs, and dare I say, writers fluent in English with views like yours to counter rational arguments on web posts.

And even if you disagree with the above, I still believe national movements or injustices should not be fought by trying to kill children. Poll after poll of Palestinians shows their support for such actions. No such polls exist among the Israelis, who don’t celebrate when an Arab child is killed while playing next to a missile launcher. It’s a war crime to launch missiles onto civilians without any military target whatsoever. It’s a war crime to arm and use these weapons where civilians live.

Terrorism is the enemy. If we reward the Palestinians for using terrorism, then many more terrorists around the world will learn that terrorism pays off. We will all suffer. If we reward Hamas for their news reporters’ fear of death, we will also suffer.

I encourage anyone to read the last few posts in the argument Rick and I are having. Rick supports Hamas and thinks the American military is guilty of war crimes in Iraq. One of the most common “war crimes” we commit is the murder of noncombatants who happen to live where terrorists hide. Rick doesn’t feel it’s enough to try to avoid civilian casualties, as is the case with the militaries of the US and Israel. Rick is angrier at the militaries of the US and Israel than he is at Hamas. My Christmas post at 11:59 lists the hideous things about Hamas that I managed to put together in only 30 minutes. There are probably a lot more heinous things about Hamas that I didn’t cover. Rick views Hamas as moral compared to Israel.

Alan,

You say:

“I believe terrorism is targeting innocent civilians, even children, without a military objective.”

That is the whole point. There are no innocent civilians in the so called “State of Israel”. They are all living on stolen land from which they have driven the rightful owners into refugee camps in unimaginably horrid living conditions. Thus they are all foot soldiers in this struggle to the death. It matters not whether they or their fathers or their grandfathers stole the land. They all live on stolen land and are all valid military targets.

To see this, imagine that an armed stranger enters your home and forces you and yours out into the cold. Further assume that the LA police force will do nothing about it for ethnic reasons. Would you consider that you have the right to take up arms and take back your home?

Rick

You said my list about Hamas shows them to be “atrocious” . Thanks.

I believe terrorism is targeting innocent civilians, even children, without a military objective. You believe terrorism is Israel “stealing the land”. Sorry, but this wasn’t theft, and even if it was, it ain’t terrorism. Israelis defended themselves when they were attacked by several Arab countries. The Arabs lost, should be happy with the 90% of the land they occupy that was formerly administered by the British and should dela with it, since probably fewer than 5% of them have any memory of living in Israel.

By your reasoning, the entire US, Canada, and Australia must be terrorists for living on stolen land. At least the Israelis bought the land when they arrived. Maybe the Arabs shouldn’t have tried to eliminate them.

You beleive that every Jew in Israel is a War Criminal for living on stolen land. Even though over 80% of that land was administered by the Ottomans or Brits for 500 years. You feel the Palestinians are justified to target innocent Jewish civilians because those civilians are “zionist war criminals”.

I believe in the Road Map for Peace, even though it’s supported by the UN, EU and Russia—not exactly Jew lovers. The US also backs the Road Map, but you feel the US military is a terrorist entity because of its actions in Iraq.

I believe terrorism itself is the enemy. You believe that any country defending itself from terrorism has no right to go after the terrorists if they hide behind innocent civilians. You blame the US or Israel for killing noncombatants when going after terrorists whereas I blame the terrorists for operating from within civilian areas. I say don’t reward terrorism no matter what the justification is, because it would teach the world that terrorism pays off. We would all suffer for a long time. Many more people will die than have died to date because bombs get smaller and more powerful.

You want to reward terrorism with a political victory. I say ostracize any country supporting the targeting of civilians no matter the justification.

Since you always discuss water, I would like you to find one piece of evidence showing that the West Bank ever had more water than Israel provides now. If the current water agreement is unfair, I said I would back the Palestinians as soon as they abandon terrorism. As for Arafat signing the interim agreement in 1995, the link that you request is already on this website.

For anyone reading out there, check out my last post on Hamas. Rick, you actually believe Israel is more morally corrupt than Hamas. Classic. Is the US military more corrupt than Hamas becuase it kills noncombatant civilians in Iraq? Is Iran corrupt in providing Hezbollah and Hamas with crude missiles that are exclusively made to kill civilians and have no military value whatsoever?

Ahmed of UAE,

Good post, but you forgot to mention in your list of terrorist entities Menachem Begin’s Irgun that chased the Brits and Palestinians form their ancient homeland and the current Zionist regime and the USA.

Alan,

“I’m impressed enough to quote you by saying “Codswallop.”

Isn’t that a satisfying swear word. I must admit that I borrowed it from my friend DuckPhup from another board.

“The road map to peace says the violence stops before negotiation starts.”

That is the root of our friendly disagreement. I don’t accept the Road Map to nowhere any more than do the true Palestinian representatives, Hamas. The Roadmap calls for the establishment of the “State of Israel” in its pre-1967 borders, which would be a horrific injustice to the Palestinian people.

“Also, Arafat himself signed the current water agreement in 1995, which provides more water than Jordan ever supplied when it was in control of the same region.”

Please provide a reference to support this or stop making this ridiculous claim.

“In short, we both agree that killing innocent bystanders is horrendous—our difference lies in the fact that I blame the terrorists for operating among civilians whereas you blame the US and Israeli militaries. That being said, you might want to stop writing that I don’t care about innocent bystanders being killed.”

I respectfully disagree. I think that the difference is in our definition of terrorist. I say the terrorists are the users of overwhelming military might to overthrow sovereign governments and chase innocent people from their homes and land, by bombing the victim population centers with 500 lb or 1 ton bombs from thousands of feet.

I will stop saying that you don’t care about innocent bystanders being killed when you stop supporting the Zionist war criminal.

“I asked you in a previous post why there are no Palestinian equivalents to the Israeli Human Rights group B’Tselem. You said, “…of course not. The Palestinians only have time to defend themselves from the onslaught of their terrorist neighbor who is intent on bulldozing their homes and assassinating their leadership…” Sorry but I have to say it’s more likely that Hamas wouldn’t allow this than the alternative explanation, namely, that 10 writers can’t find a typewriter because they are too busy fighting the Jews.”

I think that to compare life in Gaza to life in Israel is absurd. To think that the Gazans have time to worry about whether their freedom fighters are playing fair is beyond absurd when they are being denied food, water and electricity and their children are being slaughtered in a 17 to 1 ratio to the Zionists.

Your list of 15 items is indeed atrocious, and pales only in comparison to the actions of the Zionist invaders and war criminals that started the conflict in the first place, terrorized an entire population by chasing them from their ancestral home of thousands of years and engage in slow genocide by depriving them of their basic human rights and dignity and the most basic human sustenance such as water.

How can you support such a terrorist entity? Have you no shame?

"Do Americans really understand what terrorism is, what it does to a society, and how it can be defeated?"

Terrorism is a tactic that had its roots on the evil hearts of a minority whose goals are offensive to the status quo. Regardless of intents, histories and experiences, Humanity understand what terrorism was and is. Terrorism have been conducted by ALL governments, ALL nations and ALL peoples since the dawn of time.

Adolf Hitler (evil fuhrer), Muhammad (war be upon him) and Vladimir Lenin (marxist dictatorship)are ALL mass murderers whose expertise were terrorism. The only way to defeat them are to... counter their false ideologies and build up our societies in opposition these "culture of fear" that they're propagating.

- Ahmed of UAE.

Victoria

Sorry for the insult. I don't believe you are for real, but there is always the possibility that I could be wrong. If this unlikely possibility is true, then I apologize and say "peace". I stand by the substance of my earlier post, if not the tone.

Rick: You are wrong about the roads. Any Israeli can use them, be they Arab or Jew. West Bank Arabs can't but Israeli Arabs can. So it's not racist, it's about fear of drivers being killed by terrorists.

About your previous post, Rick:

Well written and not a personal attack. I’m impressed enough to quote you by saying “Codswallop.”

If Israel has been unfair with water, they need to address that issue the minute after the Palestinians say they will stop negotiating with suicide bombs. The road map to peace says the violence stops before negotiation starts. I will personally support the Palestinians in the West Bank with water equality when that happens. But for anyone out there reading this, please note that the water that Israeli Arabs can use is the same as Israeli Jews. Also, Arafat himself signed the current water agreement in 1995, which provides more water than Jordan ever supplied when it was in control of the same region.

As for the “Zionist war criminals” killing innocent Palestinian children, I’ll stick with my previous argument. The tough guys who launch missiles toward Israeli civilian centers should not be driving around with machine guns or missiles in neighborhoods filled with children. We both know that Israel goes after those missiles and does a good job avoiding civilians whenever possible. Rick, I know that you believe that civilian casualties Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon are “war crimes”. But you’re also on record as saying that the US Military in Iraq is guilty of committing “war crimes” like this. In both cases, I’ll say that it’s obvious that both of these militaries try hard not to kill civilians and thus are almost always not guilty of war crimes. To me, the responsibility lies with the terrorists and militants who ply their trade from within civilian population centers for the principle reason that they feel more protected in these areas because they know the US or Israeli military tries not to kill innocent bystanders.

I will quote you again: “Your constant whining that suicide bombers kill women and children, a tiny fraction of the women and children slaughtered by the Zionist war criminal, is disgusting in the extreme.” I believe that murdering children on a bus is worse than children getting killed because a missile launcher is intentionally hiding his missiles in civilian areas. I also believe that the principle problem with the Palestinians is that they overwhelmingly support killing civilians, even children, in poll after poll. You count the numbers of children to support your argument. I blame those numbers on the terrorists in the West Bank (and in Iraq), not on the US or Israeli militaries that try hard not to kill innocent bystanders. In short, we both agree that killing innocent bystanders is horrendous—our difference lies in the fact that I blame the terrorists for operating among civilians whereas you blame the US and Israeli militaries. That being said, you might want to stop writing that I don’t care about innocent bystanders being killed.

I asked you in a previous post why there are no Palestinian equivalents to the Israeli Human Rights group B’Tselem. You said, “…of course not. The Palestinians only have time to defend themselves from the onslaught of their terrorist neighbor who is intent on bulldozing their homes and assassinating their leadership…” Sorry but I have to say it’s more likely that Hamas wouldn’t allow this than the alternative explanation, namely, that 10 writers can’t find a typewriter because they are too busy fighting the Jews.

To Victoria and Rick:

Since you like numbered lists, I will now summarize atrocious actions and war crimes committed by the nice folks at Hamas, who were elected by the Palestinians even though they glorify “martyrs” who have killed children. And espouse racist drivel such as “Jews started WW1 and WW2”, which is in their charter. I won’t delve into Mickey Mouse programs where the Jew tortures and murders Mickey. Who votes for guys like this?

Here’s a list about Hamas to compare to your list about Israel

1) No tolerance for any opinion that criticizes Hamas. Death to those who do.

2) No freedom of press. Journalists and editors fear death

3) Not much in the way of gay rights.

4) Christians in Gaza live in fear for their lives.

5) Article 22 of the Hamas Charter: Jews started WW1 and WWII

6) Article 7: “…The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).”

7) Article 24: “The Islamic Resistance Movement does not allow slandering or speaking ill of individuals or groups, for the believer does not indulge in such malpractices.”

8) Article 28: “Zionism… relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.”

9) Article 28, again: “Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep." Not much tolerance for other religions.

10) Let’s move on to war crimes: I only had time to check one website, I’m sure there are others. You might check out this link from Human Rights Watch: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/06/13/isrlpa16156.htm

11) Human Rights Violation: Tolerates launching missiles from civilian areas to cities in Israel with no military target intended.

12) Human Rights Violation: Kills sick people in Hospitals (see the link above)

13) Human Rights Violation: Executes a cook for the former prime minister by tying his hands and feet together and throwing him off a building. (nice)

14) Human Rights Violation: Does not allow its captive Israeli soldier to meet with the Red Cross

15) Human Rights Violation: A quote from the link above: “Hamas military forces have summarily executed captives, killed people not involved in hostilities, and engaged in gun battles… inside and near Palestinian hospitals.”

It’s sad that you are so anti-Zionist (anti-Jewish?) that you would support these guys or the population that elected them.

alan- your people skills leave a little to be desired-

i dont know you, havent insuleted or made presumptions or tired in any way to tell you what you think or why-
yet your first comment to me is, well seems to be implying some dishonesty or sneakiness-

i post because i beleive in the issue as a solid failing of mankind- an injustice that is the catalyst for so many larger injustices-

i like to go to the source- the root of everything-

i believe strongly in what i present-

i also provide, always - links for any to persue or disprove at their discretion-

if i were presenting info without verfiying the source- you could say i

"throwing enough misinformation out there in the hope that some of it sticks-"

it is odd for the first words to a person to be telling them their information is wrong-
but not presenting a reasoned analysis of why it is wrong-
otherwise- its just opinions and opinions-
youre welcome to them-
but i expect more from a dialogue.
of COURSE you are most welcome to debunk- providing sources and links-

i try to make it easy for people to access what i present- i go that extra little effort to do so-

im not afraid of being debunked, as i research carefully before i even post

but i do draw the line at bad manners-

i can make a distinciton between ideas, and human beings-

i hope we can converse without uneccesary rephrasng of each others positions etc-

i wont do it to you or anyone-

its a way of appealing to emotions instead of reason that i find- distracts from any good exchange.

peace

Victoria and Alan,

Victoria says:

"Palestinians in the early 20th century owned 97.5% of the land, while Jews (native Palestinians and recent immigrants together) owned only 2.5% of the land?"

Alan says:

“Thanks to William, I now know that the Ottoman Empire owned 80% of what is now Israel for 400 years and the Brits asministered it for another hundred. It was mostly desert back in the day and wasn't owned by anyone.

As for Jewish Roads, you are wrong. There are roads for Israeli citizens, of whom 20% are Arabs.

These Arabs can vote and attend the best Universities in Israel.”

Victoria is right of course. When will you ever get this straight Alan?

Just because the Jews stole the land from the Canaanites and Philistines 15,000 years ago, then the Romans stole it from the Jews 2,000 years ago, then the Ottomans stole it from the Romans, then the Brits stole it from the Ottomans and gave it to the Jews, doesn’t mean that it legally belongs to the Jews. It belongs to the Palestinians (and a small number of Jews, less than 2% of the total population) whose ancestors have lived on the land, farmed it, and tended their flocks and orchards for more than 15,000 years.

Now, do you get it yet? I didn’t think so.

You are also wrong on the roads. You are talking about the so called “State of Israel” with the 20% Arab population. Victoria is talking about the West Bank where the Zionist invader and war criminal is stealing all the land and water rights and building private roads for Jews only, no Palestinians allowed.

Alan,

You seem to have a very high opinion of yourself and what a great job you are doing of convincing your audience that your arguments and conclusions are valid.

I think that nothing could be further from the truth. You have not been able to refute the following facts:

1. The Zionist invader is occupying stolen land that it acquired by force, with an assist from the world’s superpowers, and so has no grounds for complaint when it is attacked in return by the displaced native population.

2. Israel continues to increase its illegal acquisition of Palestinian land in the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza. It has withdrawn from Gaza (for the moment) but continues to suppress the economy and limit access to vital resources such as water, fuel and electricity.

3. Israel's policy regarding water supply in the West Bank is illegal and discriminates on racial grounds. It flagrantly breaches international law which requires Israel to ensure proper living conditions for the occupied population and to respect the Palestinians' human rights, including the right to receive a sufficient quantity of water to meet their basic needs.”

4. Israel is violating the international law on water since the water resources in the Occupied Territories were integrated into the legal and bureaucratic system of Israel, severely limiting the ability of Palestinians to develop those resources…

5. Israel’s use of groundwater of the Occupied Territories in the settlements is a breach of article 55 of the Hague Regulations.

6. Israel is in breach of Article 27 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 which prohibits an occupying state from discriminating between residents of occupied territory; since the quantity of water supplied to the settlements is vastly larger than that which is supplied to the Palestinians.

7. Israel is in breach of article 6 of the UN Convention on the Law of the Non-Navigational Uses of International Watercourses. Examination of the current division of water between Israel and the Palestinians leads to the conclusion that this division violates Palestinian rights and contravenes international water law.

8. Even Israel’s own human rights organization considers them to be racist, illegal and “discriminates on racial grounds”.

9. Israel hogs 80% of the regions water supply to keep their swimming pools full and lawns green, while leaving the Palestinians less than half the amount considered necessary for minimum health requirements by the WHO and USAID organizations.

10. The Zionist war criminals have killed more than 6 times the number of Palestinian civilians, as Palestinians have killed Israeli civilians.

11. The Zionist war criminals have killed more than 17 times the number of Palestinian children, as Palestinians have killed Israeli children.

12. Your repeated excuses that the Zionists drop leaflets to warn civilian population centers that are about to be bombed back to the stone ages, and apologizes after the fact, are disgusting in the extreme.

13. Your constant whining that suicide bombers kill women and children, a tiny fraction of the women and children slaughtered by the Zionist war criminal, is disgusting in the extreme.

Alan, why do you continue to support the bad guys? Have you no shame?

Victoria

You're good at throwing enough misinformation out there in the hope that some of it sticks with people that don't know this issue too well. To save myself time, I'll debunk one of your myths:

"Palestinians in the early 20th century owned 97.5% of the land, while Jews (native Palestinians and recent immigrants together) owned only 2.5% of the land?"

Thanks to William, I now know that the Ottoman Empire owned 80% of what is now Israel for 400 years and the Brits asministered it for another hundred. It was mostly desert back in the day and wasn't owned by anyone.

As for Jewish Roads, you are wrong. There are roads for Israeli citizens, of whom 20% are Arabs.
These Arabs can vote and attend the best Universities in Israel.

Some of your muck is probably legitimate. If there are injustices, things should change. But the biggest injustice is that the Palestinians support terrorism as a means to achieve political gain. If we allow them to gain from terrorism, the rest of the would be terrorists in the world would learn that terrorism pays off. May the Palestinians find their MLK.

I never knew I could have such a fun past-time. Thanks for giving me mild mental exercise. I say mild because most smart folks who read our posts and haven’t made up their mind would agree with me.

Alan (from a previous post) “You’ve said every Israeli is responsible for their government’s actions and you’ve never stated that Palestinian support of terrorism is horrendous.”
Rick’s Response: “ Palestinians don’t support terrorism of course. It is not terrorism to fight for your basic human rights and dignity, to kick the racist Zionist invaders and land/water thieves from your home.”
My current reply: We both know that Palestinians support racism because of multiple polls. Here’s a quote from the Pew Global Website: “In Lebanon, for example, just 34% of Muslims say suicide bombings in the defense of Islam are often or sometimes justified; in 2002, 74% expressed this view. However, Palestinians stand out for their broad acceptance of suicide bombing. Seven-in-ten-Palestinians say this tactic is at least sometimes justified.”

The Link:

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=257

It is confirmed at this link as well: Check out question 18:
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=28550

I’m not saying the Palestinians should be judged for fighting to dislodge the Jews from Israel. But they should be judged for wholeheartedly supporting the murder of Jewish children and celebrating the “martyrs” who commit such atrocities. People who wish to achieve a political gain should not be rewarded for such sentiment. You can probably find examples of Israeli atrocities. But they are few and far between and the population doesn’t celebrate the atrocities. When they get their Martin Luther King, I’ll support them.

Rick, you posted a great quote here: “We all feel much better because the Zionist terrorists apologize while they gleefully slaughter hundreds of innocent Palestinian women and children.” Yeah, dude, the Jews gleefully slaughter hundreds of innocent Palestinian women and children. You and I know this isn’t true and I suggest anyone ask an Israeli that they meet if it’s possible. As for the Harper’s article, I don’t believe the writer. But let’s pretend it’s true. You managed to find 8 bad guys with guns. Even US soldiers commit atrocities. It’s not the same as the 70% of Palestinians who approve of suicide bombings. Find a poll of Israelis who support murdering children. You can’t.

Regarding my surfer quote. I apologize if I misquoted you. I thought you said it’s fair game, an expression that I don’t use too often. It may have been another writer. But the “gleeful slaughter” part of your argument gives me back my street cred.

Alan to Rick in the last post: “To repeat an earlier point, if the Palestinians drop terrorism and institutionalized racism and terrorism, I would support them in any injustices they face.”
Rick’s Response: “Codswallop! The whole world knows that the Palestinian freedom fighters are only defending themselves with sticks and stones from the world’s foremost terrorist super powers, the USA and Israel who are practicing slow genocide upon them by withholding their water supplies.”

My current response: Blowing up buses and then celebrating the murderers isn’t sticks and stones. As for your false genocide claims regarding water, I stick with my earlier replies. Also, my I point out to any American lurkers that the US is, in Rick’s opinion, a terrorist superpower.

Rick, I don’t think you’re from Virginia. I never met anyone from that state that uses the term “Codswallop”. Are you from the Hamas disinformation center or the Hizbollah Center of Beirut?

I won’t answer the quote from Btselem. If you can’t see the difference, don’t worry. Others can.

Alan,

You fail History 101 again my friend.

You say:

“You’ve said every Israeli is responsible for their government’s actions and you’ve never stated that Palestinian support of terrorism is horrendous.”

Palestinians don’t support terrorism of course. It is not terrorism to fight for your basic human rights and dignity, to kick the racist Zionist invaders and land/water thieves from your home.

You say:

“You’ve said that a 16 year old surfer in Tel Aviv is fair game for terrorism regardless of whether his or her great-grandparents stole a Palestinian home.”

Sorry Buddy, there you go again, lying again, destroying your dwindling credibility once again.

Here is what I said in response to your ridiculous claim that the Jews may have bought 95% of their land:

You said:

“By the way, I never said the Jews bought 95% of the land. I was just asking you for argument’s sake if you would change your opinion if I could prove this fact to you. Interesting that you wouldn’t answer that question.”

It is pretty hard to take such a question seriously when we know that 83.6% of the land actually belongs to the Palestinians and only 16.4% belongs to the Zionists. But if 95% of the Zionists had actually purchased their homes and land like normal people, then no one would have a reason to consider them Zionist invaders and land thieves. Your hypothetical 16 year old girl surfing on the beach in Tel Aviv would then be no different than a 16 year old girl surfing on the beach in the French Riviera, and would not have a care in the world.

However, since this is clearly not the case, if this hypothetical 16 year old girl surfing in Tel Aviv happens to encounter a randomly fired Katyusha rocket, or suicide bomber; then that is a very unfortunate incident, for which we can thank the Zionist invaders and land thieves who occupy 80.4% of the so called “State of Israel”.

So do you get it yet? I didn’t say that it was OK to target the 16 year old girl, but if she was accidentally hit by a Katyusha rocket or suicide bomber, who mistook her for one of the terrorist Zionist invaders and land/water thieves who occupy 80.4% of the so called “State of Israel”, then that is a very unfortunate incident, for which we can thank the Zionist invaders and land thieves who occupy 80.4% of the so called “State of Israel”.

Now, do you get it yet? Or will I get this same disingenuous charge again on your next post? You know that your motives and methods are transparent to the lurkers out there who you mistakenly believe are taking your bigoted side in this issue and you continue to lose credibility the more that you dissemble and obfuscate.

You said”

“In this context especially, when you write that “B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are RACIST WAR CRIMINALS”, it necessitates a quote that says exactly that. A better quote would have been that B’tselem considers the water policy to be unethical because it discriminates on racial grounds and is illegal. That’s not the same as “Israelis are racist war criminals”. You would fail History 101 for your deliberate attempt to confuse or distort the truth.”

Are you serious? Here are the words again:

“Israel's policy regarding water supply in the West Bank is illegal and discriminates on racial grounds. It flagrantly breaches international law which requires Israel to ensure proper living conditions for the local population and to respect the Palestinians' human rights, including the right to receive a sufficient quantity of water to meet their basic needs.”

What part of “discriminates on racial grounds” and “flagrantly breaches international law” don’t you understand?

That sounds like racist war criminals to me.

Do you get it yet? I didn’t think so.

Alan.

Your posts become more confused and your credibility continues to evaporate the more desperately you try to defend the indefensible terrorist Zionist war criminal regime.

We all feel much better because the Zionist terrorists apologize while they gleefully slaughter hundreds of innocent Palestinian women and children.

Fortunately the world has had its fill of the Zionist terrorists; even young American Jews have had enough and say be gone.

[See Victoria’s post @ December 24, 2007 10:07 AM at this site: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/america/2007/11/americanisraeli_settlers_hold.html]

You ask if there are human rights organizations in Palestine; of course not. The Palestinians only have time to defend themselves from the onslaught of their terrorist neighbor who is intent on bulldozing their homes and assassinating their leadership by indiscriminately firing rockets and dropping 500 lb bombs in populous areas from the safety of US provided warplanes and helicopters from thousands of feet above.

You say:

“To repeat an earlier point, if the Palestinians drop terrorism and institutionalized racism and terrorism, I would support them in any injustices they face.”

Codswallop! The whole world knows that the Palestinian freedom fighters are only defending themselves with sticks and stones from the world’s foremost terrorist super powers, the USA and Israel who are practicing slow genocide upon them by withholding their water supplies. And you gleefully support the racist war criminals as defined by their own human rights organization.

You say:

“Israel makes every effort not to kill innocent bystanders.”

And:

“The Israelis don’t celebrate when a Palestinian child is caught in the crossfire.”

Is this your idea of a cross fire:

“Hunting Children for Sport

In a 2001 issue of Harper's Magazine [Chris Hedges, A Gaza Diary , Harper's Magazine, October 200], veteran American journalist Chris Hedges exposed how Israeli troops in Gaza systematically curse and provoke Palestinian children playing in the dunes of southern Gaza. Then, when the boys finally get irritated enough and start throwing stones, the soldiers premeditatedly respond with live ammunition from rifles fitted with silencers. “Later,” writes Hedges, “in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos.” He then concludes, “Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered, […] but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.”

Alan, wake up my friend you are supporting the bad guys.

BTW- wasnt HAMAS elected in a free democratic election to be the elected leadership?

does that mean israel only honors democracy when it agrees with israel's agenda?

well, that took about 2 seconds to find-

http://www.asiapacificforum.net/about/annual-meetings/10th-mongolia-2005/downloads/apf-member-reports/palestine.pdf
the problem with the group of human rights watchdog group-is that israel has made it impossible for the 2 offices to communicate-

i guess there were just too many questionable israeli actions getting mixed in with the hamas (didnt they get elected because they supplied the population with the basic social services destroyed by theisraeli occupation?) for the israelis to allow them to be effective-

imagine that?

PICCR-

heres another-
violence against palestinian women and girls
(by israelis)
of course its 97 pages long-

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/opt1106/opt1106webwcover.pdf

alan said- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" The Israelis don’t celebrate when a Palestinian child caught in the crossfire."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

um, yes- considering hundreds more palestinian children are killed by "accident" than israeli children-

no- the israelis dont exactly broadcast that, do they?

i dont know if that is to be considered some kind of morally superior position.

wouldnt it be more powerfully ethical if they didnt kill hundreds of children?

just a crazy thought-

would you care to elaborate a bit more on the egalitarian nature of the israeli deomcoracy?

Is it Israeli Democracy or "Jewish Democracy", you be the judge. Are you aware that:

Prior to the 1948 war, Palestinian Christians and Muslims were a two-third majority of the population of Palestine, who owned and operated 93% of Palestine's lands?

Prior to the 1948 war, most Israeli Jews were persecuted and dispossessed European Jews who made a one-third minority of the population?

Prior to the 1948 war, only on third of the Jews in Palestine were legal citizens of the country?

For Israel to become a "Jewish majority" it opted to expel and dispossess the two-third Palestinian majority?

80% of the Palestinian people were dispossessed from their homes, farms, and businesses and have been kept out for the past 54 years?

95% of Israel's lands (which is mostly owned by Palestinian refugees) is open for DEVELOPMENT to JEWS ONLY?

Only one of the 45 Zionist Jews who sign the Israeli "declaration of independence" on May 14th, 1948 was born in Palestine. The other 44 were mostly Jewish refugees who escaped their anti-Semitic Europe countries, such as Tsarist Russia, Germany, and Poland.

Israeli-Palestinian citizens live almost in segregated communities (or ghettos) because development is strictly limited outside their villages? Ironically, the word "ghetto" was invented to describe the living conditions of Eastern European Jews in Tsarist Russia!

For just being "Jewish" you gain an automatic citizenship in Israel? Plus tens of thousands of dollars in subsidies too.

Palestinian Muslims or Christians refugees, who were born in the country and later expelled, cannot gain Israeli citizenship? Of course, unless they convert to Judaism first!

PRETENDING to be Jewish in Israel is punishable by law with up to one year's IMPRISONMENT? On the other hand, if you pretend to be a Muslim or Christian the law does you no harm!

When the Palestine problem was created by Britain in 1917, more than 92% of the population of Palestine were Arabs and there were at that time no more than 56,000 Jews in Palestine? That Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Palestinians at that time lived in peace with each other?

Palestinians in the early 20th century owned 97.5% of the land, while Jews (native Palestinians and recent immigrants together) owned only 2.5% of the land?

Close to 4 million Palestinian Muslims and Christians are being subjected to Israeli laws that are different than the laws governing the 4.5 million Israeli Jews? Is this a "democratically" elected apartheid, or not, that is the question?

In the occupied West Bank there are "JEWISH ROADS" and "NON-JEWISH"?

Israel issues national identify cards where the RELIGION of the card holder is clearly shown in BOLD TYPE?

Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza drive vehicles with license plates that have DIFFERENT COLORING than the cars driven by Israeli settlers?

Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza hold ID cards that are of DIFFERENT COLORS than the cards held by Israeli settlers?

The only form of Judaism recognized by the "Jewish state" is Orthodox Judaism, so most US Jews could not get married in Israel. Furthermore, the only conversion to Judaism recognized is Orthodox, so most US converts aren't Jewish enough.

Just prior to the 1948 war, Jews owned under 7% of Palestine's land, and to increase their share after the war, they passed the "Absentees' Law" which dispossessed the Palestinian majority land owners who later became "absent". What is even more tragic was the passage of an oxymoron law, called "PRESENT ABSENTEES????' Law," which dispossessed the Palestinian-Israeli citizens who became internal refugees in Israel. It is worth noting that the internal JEWISH refugees were NOT dispossessed as a result of this RACIST LAW.

The U.S. funneled into the Israeli economy over 130 billion dollars, which is almost twice the amount devoted to rebuilding Western Europe after WW II!

Israeli democracy is a facade for "Jewish Democracy?"

Israel has nuclear weapons, and it was close to dropping one on Cairo in 1973?

Israeli soldiers use human shields in battle to minimize their casualties?

Israel killed over 20,000 Lebanese and Muslims (90% of whom are civilians) with American made and paid for weapons?

The concept of "transferring" European Jews to Palestine and "transferring" the Palestinian people out is central to Zionism. Ben-Gurion, the 1st Israeli Prime Minister, eloquently articulated this essential Zionist pillar, he stated in 1944:

"Zionism is a TRANSFER of the Jews. Regarding the TRANSFER of the [Palestinian] Arabs this is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that if the [Palestinian] Arabs are removed [to these states] this will improve their condition and not the contrary." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 159) Note the usage of the word "transfer" to signify the uprooting of the indigenous population to make room for Jewish refugees. Now a days this is a war crime called Ethnic Cleansing.

Rick:

You’ve said every Israeli is responsible for their government’s actions and you’ve never stated that Palestinian support of terrorism is horrendous. You’ve said that a 16 year old surfer in Tel Aviv is fair game for terrorism regardless of whether his or her great-grandparents stole a Palestinian home. In this context especially, when you write that “B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are RACIST WAR CRIMINALS”, it necessitates a quote that says exactly that. A better quote would have been that B’tselem considers the water policy to be unethical because it discriminates on racial grounds and is illegal. That’s not the same as “Israelis are racist war criminals”. You would fail History 101 for your deliberate attempt to confuse or distort the truth.

But this is nothing new for you. You are well versed in obscure 80 year old historical documents, know the details about Zionists leaders’ personal lives 100 years ago and understand intricacies of water rights issues. Yet somehow you didn’t pick up on the fact that Arabs vote in Israel. I believe that anyone who is as well versed in the obscure issues of that region as you would HAVE to know that Israeli Arabs vote. This last statement leads me to believe that you deliberately distort the truth but want to be seen as reasonable, so you apologize when you are caught.

To repeat an earlier point, if the Palestinians drop terrorism and institutionalized racism and terrorism, I would support them in any injustices they face. The biggest differences in our argument is that I believe in the Road Map to peace and you don’t. I also believe that if you reward terrorism, the entire world will pay for that with more terrorism. Any injustice that is being fought against by INTENTIONALLY killing innocent children should not be addressed while that tactic is being used.

As for the number of innocent Palestinians killed, it is a tragedy. But I would blame the missile launchers and bomb makers for doing these things from populated areas. There’s a war crime for you. Since Hamas is in charge, and the Palestinians voted for them, does this make every Palestinian a “racist war criminal”? Of course not.

Israel makes every effort not to kill innocent bystanders. Of course, they screw up but this is no different with any army operating against civilians. But since you feel the US military is just as guilty in Iraq as Israel is in Gaza or the West Bank, I can’t argue you on this point. I think you are wrong, but I can’t prove to you that killing non-combatants isn’t horrendous. But blame the militants and terrorists for launching missiles and building their bombs in crowded areas as a means to protect themselves.

There is a difference between Israel and the Palestinians that you don’t consider. We both know that the Palestinians honor “martyrs” and their families for killing innocent Jewish children. The Israelis don’t celebrate when a Palestinian child caught in the crossfire. Just like the US doesn’t celebrate when an Iraqi child is killed with an errant bomb. Is every civilian in the US fair game for terrorism because our military has killed so many innocent people in Iraq?

By the way, you never answered my question at the end of my December 5:56 PM post: “Rick, do you think there are Palestinian human rights groups watching over the actions of Hamas? A rhetorical question, because in Gaza, one is not allowed to have an opinion different from the Government’s. The penalty is death. You’re supporting the bad guys, Rick.”

Alan,

Here is a good site for nice people like yourself who like to root for the good guys. Notice that the Zionist terrorist war criminals have killed more than 6 times the number of Palestinian citizens as Palestinians have killed Israeli civilians. The Zionist war criminals have killed more than 17 times the number of Palestinian children as Palestinians have killed Israeli children. Alan, it is you who are supporting the bad guys.

Notice that this information was also provided by the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem.

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/pubs/20001127fs.html

Fact Sheet Number 1: Casualties in Palestine and Israel from the First Intifada until October 30, 2000

Total casualties in the Occupied Territories and Israel from December 9, 1987 to September 30, 2000:

Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli forces - 1,407
Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli civilians - 140
Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian civilians - 270
Members of the Israeli forces killed by Palestinian civilians - 135

Israeli and Palestinian minors killed from December 9, 1987 to September 30, 2000:

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli forces in the Occupied Territories - 285
Palestinian minors killed by Israeli civilians in the Occupied Territories - 23
Israeli minors killed by Palestinians in the Occupied Territories - 4
Israeli minors killed by Palestinian civilians in Israel - 14

Killings by Israeli undercover units in the Occupied Territories (including East Jerusalem) from December 9, 1987 to September 30, 2000:

Palestinians - 166
Israeli civilians - 1
Members of the Israeli forces - 4

Adapted from B’Tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

Alan:

“Btselem doesn’t use the term “racist war criminals”. Your sentence above is exposed for using that term. It isn’t in the website. Were you hoping I wouldn’t find the site?”

Are you serious? Here are the words again:

“Israel's policy regarding water supply in the West Bank is illegal and discriminates on racial grounds. It flagrantly breaches international law which requires Israel to ensure proper living conditions for the local population and to respect the Palestinians' human rights, including the right to receive a sufficient quantity of water to meet their basic needs.”

What part of “discriminates on racial grounds” and “flagrantly breaches international law” don’t you understand?

That sounds like racist war criminals to me.

Rick

Here’s your original quote: “What do you think of the B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are racist war criminals for….”

Btselem doesn’t use the term “racist war criminals”. Your sentence above is exposed for using that term. It isn’t in the website. Were you hoping I wouldn’t find the site?

As for me lying: Here is the quote from the “Jewish Propaganda Website” as you might call the Jewish Virtual Library: “Israel has fulfilled all of her obligations under the Interim Agreement. The water quota agreed upon, and more, is being supplied. Jurisdiction over water was transferred completely and on time, and Israel approved the additional digging of wells. Israel and the PA carry out joint patrols to locate cases of water theft and other water-related problems.”

The link, my friend:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html#g

The injustice regarding water could be true. If so, Arafat shouldn’t have signed the interim agreement. Israel should change its allocations. But as the Road Map to Peace suggests, the issue should not be considered until the Palestinians stop honoring “martyrs” who have killed school children. They should also stop the Hamas PBS style Mickey Mouse programs that vilify Jews. Terrorism, no matter the justification, should never be rewarded or all of our lives will become more unpleasant. When the Palestinians protest with Ghandi-like principles (or MLK, for an American reference), I’ll be there for them.

Alan:

“Can you please copy and paste a link to the part about the Israelis being “racist war criminals”? I think you were lying about this, so prove me wrong. I believe your quote was “What do you think of the B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are racist war criminals for….”

Here it is pal. How is my credibility now? I hate to say it, but I'm afraid that yours is in tatters. The quoted paragraph is at the bottom of the page.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Water/Without_Running_Water.asp

“Israel's policy regarding water supply in the West Bank is illegal and discriminates on racial grounds. It flagrantly breaches international law which requires Israel to ensure proper living conditions for the local population and to respect the Palestinians' human rights, including the right to receive a sufficient quantity of water to meet their basic needs.”

See, even Israel’s own human rights organization considers them to be racist, illegal and “discriminates on racial grounds”.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More from B’Tselem on International Law relative to water rights and the Israeli war criminals:

http://www.btselem.org/english/Water/International_Law.asp

International law on water

In examining international law, it is necessary to distinguish between Israel's obligations as an occupying state to the population under its control on one hand, and the use of water sources shared by Israel and the Palestinians, which are considered international waters, on the other.

A. Administration of the water sector in occupied territory

1. Prohibition on altering legislation

Article 43 of the 1907 Hague Regulations prohibits an occupying state from changing the legislation in effect prior to occupation. The military orders that Israel issued regarding the water resources and the supply of water in the Occupied Territories significantly changed the legal and institutional structure of the water sector. The water resources in the Occupied Territor