Comments (339)

Sorry about the late reply.

For the Palestinian Christian who's mother and father were killed by Israeli military, I assume he has already exhausted any legal means of retribution, is completely entitled to track down and extract retribution from the killer and his accomplices.

But the minute he kills, maims, or injures someone else, he becomes just as bad as those soldiers.

I must be missing her point?

Should I get terrorism, and why? We have small occasional bouts of Christian terrorism, but we live in America, and shouldn't be laden with the problems of the religions of the middle east. America is suppose to be a democratic society, but even with that we have problems because of religions that do not respect other's.

They've created that problem themselves, and it shouldn't be an American problem. People seem to be dragging American's into those issues for political and religious reasons. Those political choices affect America, maybe not with the extent of terrorism, but through other issues.

The real question people should be asking is;

Why is there terrorism?

If you resist without understanding why or what it is you are resisting, then terrorism will never go away. That very resistance with out understanding will only make the circle bigger.

Fix the problem, then there won't be any alleged "terrorism."

oh, historically as I understand; Canaanites lived on that land. Nomadic tribes came in from work and travels and killed them because some psychotic person said it was given to them, talk about terrorism.

I must be missing her point?

Should I get terrorism, and why? We have small occasional bouts of Christian terrorism, but we live in America, and shouldn't be laden with the problems of the religions of the middle east. America is suppose to be a democratic society, but even with that we have problems because of religions that do not respect other's.

They've created that problem themselves, and it shouldn't be an American problem. People seem to be dragging American's into those issues for political and religious reasons. Those political choices affect America, maybe not with the extent of terrorism, but through other issues.

The real question people should be asking is;

Why is there terrorism?

If you resist without understanding why or what it is you are resisting, then terrorism will never go away. That very resistance with out understanding will only make the circle bigger.

Fix the problem, then there won't be any alleged "terrorism."

Don't you think that arguing a case on the basis of Palestinians/Jews owning land (smaller than Michigan's U.P. mind you) fifteen THOUSAND years ago is rather silly? Rick or Allan, do you know FOR SURE who owned that land? Stick to the facts (or opinions), gentlemen.

i think most of you are missing the point of the article. it's here to show the american view of terrorism isn't accurate, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. the israeli soldiers view it as terrorism because that is their particular point of view. sure, it would've been a better idea to post this article alongside one showing the palestinian viewpoint, but let's just let those bygones be bygones. The article isn't to give a poor israel point of view, nor is it here to directly compare the us and israel. newsflash: we are 2 different countries. this article is just trying to show the reality of terrorism or being attacked by retaliation or whatever you want to call it. don't get caught up in terminology. this is just trying to show americans that the amount of terrorism we have, which mainly involves 9-11, a few previous bombings, etc., is nothing to what it could be. most of you have gotten too caught up in taking sides to realize the article is just to give americans another viewpoint on terrorism.

Today’s Post Global GPB

http://www.secure-x-001.net/SecureGeo/Issue/SecureObservationComments.asp

And the topic of discussion is...

“Will Bush rescue the Annapolis accord as he visits the Middle East for essentially the first time?”

And the answer provided by the author is...

No Annapolis rescue...just another photo op to enable radical Islamists.

“Most analysts believe President Bush won't start crafting constructive policies now, in his last year, when he has had no vision for the region for 7 years. What most thought leaders are asking is whether the President has any real priority beyond an attempt to reach for some type of better legacy than he has now. Few believe he does and that will make it difficult for this trip to achieve much if anything other than photo ops. Unfortunately, it provides the opportunity for US opponents, particularly radical Islamists, to achieve much as they direct anger and rage toward the most unpopular US President in memory.”

I concur. Ata boy W!

From another thread:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/saul_singer/2007/12/to_help_pakistan_fight_iran/all_comments.html

You know this discussion about the apparently growing alliance between India, the US and Israel is not really off topic. It is very central to the subject of this thread on what the future holds for Pakistan, given the heated Indo-Pakistani feud over Jammu and Kashmir.

The front page news yesterday was the first ever crossing of the $100 per barrel threshold for oil. This is a 100% price increase in just the last year, and this trend is likely to continue given the increasing demand for energy in China, India and the rest of the developing world. We have already passed “Peak Oil” production capability, so availability will decline in coming years as demand rapidly increases. This will make China, Russia and Iran natural allies as the following article notes:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/GF04Ad07.html

June 4, 2005

“The military implementation of the George W Bush administration's unilateralist foreign policy is creating monumental changes in the world's geostrategic alliances. The most significant of these changes is the formation of a new triangle comprised of China, Iran and Russia.

Growing ties between Moscow and Beijing in the past 18 months is an important geopolitical event that has gone practically unnoticed. China's premier, Wen Jiabao, visited Russia in September 2004. In October 2004, President Vladimir Putin visited China. During the October meeting, both China and Russia declared that Sino-Russian relations had reached "unparalleled heights". In addition to settling long-standing border issues, Moscow and Beijing agreed to hold joint military exercises in 2005. This marks the first large-scale military exercises between Russia and China since 1958.

The joint military exercises complement a rapidly growing arms trade between Moscow and Beijing. China is Russia's largest buyer of military equipment. In 2004, China was reported to have signed deals worth more than $2 billion for Russian arms. These included naval ships and submarines, missile systems and aircraft. According to the head of Russia's armed forces, Anatoliy Kvashnin, "our defense industrial complex is working for this country [China], supplying the latest models of arms and military equipment, which the Russian army does not have". Russia's relations with China are not limited to military trade. In the past five years, non-military trade between Russia and China has increased at an average annual rate of nearly 20%. Moscow and Beijing have targeted non-military trade to reach $60 billion by 2010, from $20 billion in 2004. One of the key components of commercial trade is Russian energy exports to China.

In early 2005, Moscow agreed to more than double electricity exports to China, to 800 million kilowatt hours (kWh), by 2006. Officials at Russia's electricity monopoly, Unified Energy Systems, are also courting Chinese investment in the development and renovation of Russia's electricity system. In October 2004, the China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) and Russia's Gazprom signed a series of agreements intended to study how Russia can best supply natural gas to China. At the same time, Russia signed specific agreements with China on oil exports.

Russia's oil shipments to China are slated to reach 10 million tons in 2005, increasing to 15 million tons in 2006. All of these shipments will be made by rail. However, this agreement was overshadowed by talks concerning the construction of an oil pipeline from Siberia to northern China. Russia has been pondering an oil pipeline to China for nearly 10 years. In 2002, plans for this pipeline received a boost when Moscow pledged to invest $2 billion in an oil pipeline running from the Siberian city of Angarsk to Daqing in northeastern China…”

The article goes on to say that at the request of Japan, who is willing to finance the entire $10 Billion plus cost of the pipeline, the pipeline will terminate at Russia's Pacific port of Nakhodka. The pipeline will still pass within 40 miles of the Russian border with China, so it will be a simple matter to add a spur directly into China.

So what we have brewing here is an alliance between China, Russia, Iran and possibly Japan. I can see Pakistan and Afghanistan joining this alliance. The question then is which way would Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and the other Gulf Oil States go? Iraq would undoubtedly go with their Shiite brethren in Iran. The presence of the Zionist occupiers of Palestine in the US_Israel_India axis of evil would probably drive the Suni Gulf Oil States to hold their nose and join the Russia_China_Iran axis.

So if I were you Dolivaw, I would reevaluate your growing ties with the US_Israel axis of evil. This would also tend to keep your large Muslim minority from attempting to secede. The future world superpowers will be in the Russia_China_Iran axis.

Here is and interesting post by JDLEDELL @ December 27, 2007 7:26 AM from Yossi Melmans’s blog:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/yossi_melman/2007/12/hopeful_for_bethlehem/all_comments.html

Yossi - Pay no attention to the extremists on both sides that populate this blog. I am extremely pessimistic about the chances for peace. I have dozens of relatives living in West Bank settlements and I have been going to Israel, at least annually, for more than 40 years. I have seen it all, the good, the bad and the ugly of this situation.

It's easy to put the blame on the Palestinians for they have made numerous mistakes which have significantly aggravated the problem. Suicide bombers, rockets and armed resistance are just a few of the well known errors. However, Jewish mistakes are less well known. The settlement enterprise is the primary problem. My sister and her family were one of the first to move from Haifa to the West Bank after the 67 war. Settlements were planned with three express goals: first, dividing up the west bank with Jews so that a viable Palestinian state could never emerge. Second, to surround Jerusalem with Jewish settlements so that Palestinians could never use it as their capital (to that end, in 1967 Israel tripled the size of Jerusalem's historical dimensions). Third, to build on top of and control the West Bank aquifers.

I’m sure you are aware that Israel is not really trying to forge a peace agreement with the Palestinians. The settlement game is still being played. Some of my settler relatives are being recruited to seed a new settlement in Atarot, for a 11,000 person city on the doorstep of Ramallah. Others are being recruited to seed Giv’at Yael, a 20,000 person settlement near Bethlehem. Plans have been developed to build another new settlement, Shimo’n Hatsedeeq , near Abu Dis.

Eventually the world will catch on to Israel’s word games. Like Jerusalem's expanded boundries, Ma’ale Adumim's municipal boundries extend all the way to Jericho, empty land that can accomodate hundreds of thousands of Israelis. Ariel city boundries are proposed to expand to encompass all the small surrounding settlements that will make Ariel geographically 4 times larger, on the theory Ariel will be allowed to stay under a peace agreement. These kind of games will not lead to “land for peace” or “peace for peace”.

Look at the maps the settlers pass around, you will see four “reservations” for Palestinians with Israel taking all the rest, including the Jordan Valley. This is the game plan and I don’t think any Israeli politician is strong enough to stop it or slow it down. There is no such thing as the status quo, if peace is delayed Israeli settlement expansion will surely prevent the birth of a viable Palestinian state.

This is a recipe for disaster as internal and external Palestinians demand citizenship and a bi-national state. Yossi, our mutual dream of a Jewish homeland will disappear as it has so many times in the past few thousand years. I, for one, find that to be an unforgivable mistake. However, an even worse outcome is possible, the loss of the jewish soul. I have seen IDF and settler depravity first hand in the West Bank. I have two nephews serving in the IDF and they are thugs, who have already lost their souls to hatred, along with numerous of my relatives. I cherish my Jewish faith and the wisdom of the Torah but I see too many Israelis abandoning this wisdom in their greed and visceral hatred for “others”. If we lose our soul, land will not matter.

thanks rick- i ave also found it strange that although israel is completely dependent upon the US supplying all of its weaponry- and funnels billions upon billions of dollars into its economoy for 60 years (the laws of the US limit foreign US aid to 10 years),
that there is not one single israeli troop helping us.

as for any exchange with alan-

this is the most bizarre apology followed by multiple insults i have ever received-

"Sorry for the insult. I don't believe you are for real, but there is always the possibility that I could be wrong. If this unlikely possibility is true, then I apologize and say "peace". "

i will leave alan in peace

see you in the funny papers

PRO-ISRAEL FORCES WANT TO RE-OPEN A PIPELINE FROM IRAQ TO HAIFA, ISRAEL

The fact that American-Israelis in our government are endeavoring to use the war on Iraq as a way for Israel to gain control over oil in the Middle East is rarely reported in the mainstream pro-Israel US media with your average American readership, however it has been reported in Jewish newspapers with Jewish readership and in Israeli papers.

A case in point is the fact that American-Israelis in our government want to "re-open" or re-instate, the pipeline that used to exist between Iraq and Palestine, which is now specifically Haifa, Israel. When Israel was created in 1948, that pipeline was re-directed by Iraq to Syria. Now pro-Israel forces are actively seeking to cut off the pipeline to Syria and re-direct it to Haifa, Israel. For more information on this, please do a Google-search using such keywords such as "Iraq oil pipeline to Haifa, Israel" and see what you come up with.

Just as Israel's connection to the war on Iraq has been kept out of the US mainstream media (as you may have noticed, Israel has not even been mentioned as one of our "allies" in the war on Iraq), this choice nugget of information with regards to Israel's ambition to get a basically free supply of Iraqi oil is also kept out of view for vast American public consumption.

Enough said my friend. I believe that we have exhausted this topic several times over.

Be well.

Rick

I like that you made it clear that every Israeli is a military target ("foot soldier"), even children. My friend, your military target is called terrorism by everyone else.

It is not stolen land. They bought their homes at first. The local populace didn’t like the new immigrants. They tried to eliminate the new immigrants. The new immigrants survived and erected borders. Nobody under the age of 74 who is Palestinian has any memory of living in Israel. For that reason alone, they should agree to live in the other 90% of the former British administered land. They would be residing a whole 20 miles from where their Great Grandparents lived.

Israel settled its 400,000 Jewish refugees who had to flee the Arab countries. The Arab countries didn’t settle its 400,000 refugees. It is the fault of the Arab countries that Palestinians still live in refugee camps. They are identical in language and religion to the surrounding populace. They are not like most immigrants—you can’t tell them apart from the surrounding populace. The goal of keeping them in refugee camps is to build sympathy for them in the multifaceted war to eliminate the Jews. This war includes terrorism, public relations, manipulation of oil money to get poor countries to side with the Arabs, and dare I say, writers fluent in English with views like yours to counter rational arguments on web posts.

And even if you disagree with the above, I still believe national movements or injustices should not be fought by trying to kill children. Poll after poll of Palestinians shows their support for such actions. No such polls exist among the Israelis, who don’t celebrate when an Arab child is killed while playing next to a missile launcher. It’s a war crime to launch missiles onto civilians without any military target whatsoever. It’s a war crime to arm and use these weapons where civilians live.

Terrorism is the enemy. If we reward the Palestinians for using terrorism, then many more terrorists around the world will learn that terrorism pays off. We will all suffer. If we reward Hamas for their news reporters’ fear of death, we will also suffer.

I encourage anyone to read the last few posts in the argument Rick and I are having. Rick supports Hamas and thinks the American military is guilty of war crimes in Iraq. One of the most common “war crimes” we commit is the murder of noncombatants who happen to live where terrorists hide. Rick doesn’t feel it’s enough to try to avoid civilian casualties, as is the case with the militaries of the US and Israel. Rick is angrier at the militaries of the US and Israel than he is at Hamas. My Christmas post at 11:59 lists the hideous things about Hamas that I managed to put together in only 30 minutes. There are probably a lot more heinous things about Hamas that I didn’t cover. Rick views Hamas as moral compared to Israel.

Alan,

You say:

“I believe terrorism is targeting innocent civilians, even children, without a military objective.”

That is the whole point. There are no innocent civilians in the so called “State of Israel”. They are all living on stolen land from which they have driven the rightful owners into refugee camps in unimaginably horrid living conditions. Thus they are all foot soldiers in this struggle to the death. It matters not whether they or their fathers or their grandfathers stole the land. They all live on stolen land and are all valid military targets.

To see this, imagine that an armed stranger enters your home and forces you and yours out into the cold. Further assume that the LA police force will do nothing about it for ethnic reasons. Would you consider that you have the right to take up arms and take back your home?

Rick

You said my list about Hamas shows them to be “atrocious” . Thanks.

I believe terrorism is targeting innocent civilians, even children, without a military objective. You believe terrorism is Israel “stealing the land”. Sorry, but this wasn’t theft, and even if it was, it ain’t terrorism. Israelis defended themselves when they were attacked by several Arab countries. The Arabs lost, should be happy with the 90% of the land they occupy that was formerly administered by the British and should dela with it, since probably fewer than 5% of them have any memory of living in Israel.

By your reasoning, the entire US, Canada, and Australia must be terrorists for living on stolen land. At least the Israelis bought the land when they arrived. Maybe the Arabs shouldn’t have tried to eliminate them.

You beleive that every Jew in Israel is a War Criminal for living on stolen land. Even though over 80% of that land was administered by the Ottomans or Brits for 500 years. You feel the Palestinians are justified to target innocent Jewish civilians because those civilians are “zionist war criminals”.

I believe in the Road Map for Peace, even though it’s supported by the UN, EU and Russia—not exactly Jew lovers. The US also backs the Road Map, but you feel the US military is a terrorist entity because of its actions in Iraq.

I believe terrorism itself is the enemy. You believe that any country defending itself from terrorism has no right to go after the terrorists if they hide behind innocent civilians. You blame the US or Israel for killing noncombatants when going after terrorists whereas I blame the terrorists for operating from within civilian areas. I say don’t reward terrorism no matter what the justification is, because it would teach the world that terrorism pays off. We would all suffer for a long time. Many more people will die than have died to date because bombs get smaller and more powerful.

You want to reward terrorism with a political victory. I say ostracize any country supporting the targeting of civilians no matter the justification.

Since you always discuss water, I would like you to find one piece of evidence showing that the West Bank ever had more water than Israel provides now. If the current water agreement is unfair, I said I would back the Palestinians as soon as they abandon terrorism. As for Arafat signing the interim agreement in 1995, the link that you request is already on this website.

For anyone reading out there, check out my last post on Hamas. Rick, you actually believe Israel is more morally corrupt than Hamas. Classic. Is the US military more corrupt than Hamas becuase it kills noncombatant civilians in Iraq? Is Iran corrupt in providing Hezbollah and Hamas with crude missiles that are exclusively made to kill civilians and have no military value whatsoever?

Ahmed of UAE,

Good post, but you forgot to mention in your list of terrorist entities Menachem Begin’s Irgun that chased the Brits and Palestinians form their ancient homeland and the current Zionist regime and the USA.

Alan,

“I’m impressed enough to quote you by saying “Codswallop.”

Isn’t that a satisfying swear word. I must admit that I borrowed it from my friend DuckPhup from another board.

“The road map to peace says the violence stops before negotiation starts.”

That is the root of our friendly disagreement. I don’t accept the Road Map to nowhere any more than do the true Palestinian representatives, Hamas. The Roadmap calls for the establishment of the “State of Israel” in its pre-1967 borders, which would be a horrific injustice to the Palestinian people.

“Also, Arafat himself signed the current water agreement in 1995, which provides more water than Jordan ever supplied when it was in control of the same region.”

Please provide a reference to support this or stop making this ridiculous claim.

“In short, we both agree that killing innocent bystanders is horrendous—our difference lies in the fact that I blame the terrorists for operating among civilians whereas you blame the US and Israeli militaries. That being said, you might want to stop writing that I don’t care about innocent bystanders being killed.”

I respectfully disagree. I think that the difference is in our definition of terrorist. I say the terrorists are the users of overwhelming military might to overthrow sovereign governments and chase innocent people from their homes and land, by bombing the victim population centers with 500 lb or 1 ton bombs from thousands of feet.

I will stop saying that you don’t care about innocent bystanders being killed when you stop supporting the Zionist war criminal.

“I asked you in a previous post why there are no Palestinian equivalents to the Israeli Human Rights group B’Tselem. You said, “…of course not. The Palestinians only have time to defend themselves from the onslaught of their terrorist neighbor who is intent on bulldozing their homes and assassinating their leadership…” Sorry but I have to say it’s more likely that Hamas wouldn’t allow this than the alternative explanation, namely, that 10 writers can’t find a typewriter because they are too busy fighting the Jews.”

I think that to compare life in Gaza to life in Israel is absurd. To think that the Gazans have time to worry about whether their freedom fighters are playing fair is beyond absurd when they are being denied food, water and electricity and their children are being slaughtered in a 17 to 1 ratio to the Zionists.

Your list of 15 items is indeed atrocious, and pales only in comparison to the actions of the Zionist invaders and war criminals that started the conflict in the first place, terrorized an entire population by chasing them from their ancestral home of thousands of years and engage in slow genocide by depriving them of their basic human rights and dignity and the most basic human sustenance such as water.

How can you support such a terrorist entity? Have you no shame?

"Do Americans really understand what terrorism is, what it does to a society, and how it can be defeated?"

Terrorism is a tactic that had its roots on the evil hearts of a minority whose goals are offensive to the status quo. Regardless of intents, histories and experiences, Humanity understand what terrorism was and is. Terrorism have been conducted by ALL governments, ALL nations and ALL peoples since the dawn of time.

Adolf Hitler (evil fuhrer), Muhammad (war be upon him) and Vladimir Lenin (marxist dictatorship)are ALL mass murderers whose expertise were terrorism. The only way to defeat them are to... counter their false ideologies and build up our societies in opposition these "culture of fear" that they're propagating.

- Ahmed of UAE.

Victoria

Sorry for the insult. I don't believe you are for real, but there is always the possibility that I could be wrong. If this unlikely possibility is true, then I apologize and say "peace". I stand by the substance of my earlier post, if not the tone.

Rick: You are wrong about the roads. Any Israeli can use them, be they Arab or Jew. West Bank Arabs can't but Israeli Arabs can. So it's not racist, it's about fear of drivers being killed by terrorists.

About your previous post, Rick:

Well written and not a personal attack. I’m impressed enough to quote you by saying “Codswallop.”

If Israel has been unfair with water, they need to address that issue the minute after the Palestinians say they will stop negotiating with suicide bombs. The road map to peace says the violence stops before negotiation starts. I will personally support the Palestinians in the West Bank with water equality when that happens. But for anyone out there reading this, please note that the water that Israeli Arabs can use is the same as Israeli Jews. Also, Arafat himself signed the current water agreement in 1995, which provides more water than Jordan ever supplied when it was in control of the same region.

As for the “Zionist war criminals” killing innocent Palestinian children, I’ll stick with my previous argument. The tough guys who launch missiles toward Israeli civilian centers should not be driving around with machine guns or missiles in neighborhoods filled with children. We both know that Israel goes after those missiles and does a good job avoiding civilians whenever possible. Rick, I know that you believe that civilian casualties Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon are “war crimes”. But you’re also on record as saying that the US Military in Iraq is guilty of committing “war crimes” like this. In both cases, I’ll say that it’s obvious that both of these militaries try hard not to kill civilians and thus are almost always not guilty of war crimes. To me, the responsibility lies with the terrorists and militants who ply their trade from within civilian population centers for the principle reason that they feel more protected in these areas because they know the US or Israeli military tries not to kill innocent bystanders.

I will quote you again: “Your constant whining that suicide bombers kill women and children, a tiny fraction of the women and children slaughtered by the Zionist war criminal, is disgusting in the extreme.” I believe that murdering children on a bus is worse than children getting killed because a missile launcher is intentionally hiding his missiles in civilian areas. I also believe that the principle problem with the Palestinians is that they overwhelmingly support killing civilians, even children, in poll after poll. You count the numbers of children to support your argument. I blame those numbers on the terrorists in the West Bank (and in Iraq), not on the US or Israeli militaries that try hard not to kill innocent bystanders. In short, we both agree that killing innocent bystanders is horrendous—our difference lies in the fact that I blame the terrorists for operating among civilians whereas you blame the US and Israeli militaries. That being said, you might want to stop writing that I don’t care about innocent bystanders being killed.

I asked you in a previous post why there are no Palestinian equivalents to the Israeli Human Rights group B’Tselem. You said, “…of course not. The Palestinians only have time to defend themselves from the onslaught of their terrorist neighbor who is intent on bulldozing their homes and assassinating their leadership…” Sorry but I have to say it’s more likely that Hamas wouldn’t allow this than the alternative explanation, namely, that 10 writers can’t find a typewriter because they are too busy fighting the Jews.

To Victoria and Rick:

Since you like numbered lists, I will now summarize atrocious actions and war crimes committed by the nice folks at Hamas, who were elected by the Palestinians even though they glorify “martyrs” who have killed children. And espouse racist drivel such as “Jews started WW1 and WW2”, which is in their charter. I won’t delve into Mickey Mouse programs where the Jew tortures and murders Mickey. Who votes for guys like this?

Here’s a list about Hamas to compare to your list about Israel

1) No tolerance for any opinion that criticizes Hamas. Death to those who do.

2) No freedom of press. Journalists and editors fear death

3) Not much in the way of gay rights.

4) Christians in Gaza live in fear for their lives.

5) Article 22 of the Hamas Charter: Jews started WW1 and WWII

6) Article 7: “…The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).”

7) Article 24: “The Islamic Resistance Movement does not allow slandering or speaking ill of individuals or groups, for the believer does not indulge in such malpractices.”

8) Article 28: “Zionism… relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.”

9) Article 28, again: “Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep." Not much tolerance for other religions.

10) Let’s move on to war crimes: I only had time to check one website, I’m sure there are others. You might check out this link from Human Rights Watch: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/06/13/isrlpa16156.htm

11) Human Rights Violation: Tolerates launching missiles from civilian areas to cities in Israel with no military target intended.

12) Human Rights Violation: Kills sick people in Hospitals (see the link above)

13) Human Rights Violation: Executes a cook for the former prime minister by tying his hands and feet together and throwing him off a building. (nice)

14) Human Rights Violation: Does not allow its captive Israeli soldier to meet with the Red Cross

15) Human Rights Violation: A quote from the link above: “Hamas military forces have summarily executed captives, killed people not involved in hostilities, and engaged in gun battles… inside and near Palestinian hospitals.”

It’s sad that you are so anti-Zionist (anti-Jewish?) that you would support these guys or the population that elected them.

alan- your people skills leave a little to be desired-

i dont know you, havent insuleted or made presumptions or tired in any way to tell you what you think or why-
yet your first comment to me is, well seems to be implying some dishonesty or sneakiness-

i post because i beleive in the issue as a solid failing of mankind- an injustice that is the catalyst for so many larger injustices-

i like to go to the source- the root of everything-

i believe strongly in what i present-

i also provide, always - links for any to persue or disprove at their discretion-

if i were presenting info without verfiying the source- you could say i

"throwing enough misinformation out there in the hope that some of it sticks-"

it is odd for the first words to a person to be telling them their information is wrong-
but not presenting a reasoned analysis of why it is wrong-
otherwise- its just opinions and opinions-
youre welcome to them-
but i expect more from a dialogue.
of COURSE you are most welcome to debunk- providing sources and links-

i try to make it easy for people to access what i present- i go that extra little effort to do so-

im not afraid of being debunked, as i research carefully before i even post

but i do draw the line at bad manners-

i can make a distinciton between ideas, and human beings-

i hope we can converse without uneccesary rephrasng of each others positions etc-

i wont do it to you or anyone-

its a way of appealing to emotions instead of reason that i find- distracts from any good exchange.

peace

Victoria and Alan,

Victoria says:

"Palestinians in the early 20th century owned 97.5% of the land, while Jews (native Palestinians and recent immigrants together) owned only 2.5% of the land?"

Alan says:

“Thanks to William, I now know that the Ottoman Empire owned 80% of what is now Israel for 400 years and the Brits asministered it for another hundred. It was mostly desert back in the day and wasn't owned by anyone.

As for Jewish Roads, you are wrong. There are roads for Israeli citizens, of whom 20% are Arabs.

These Arabs can vote and attend the best Universities in Israel.”

Victoria is right of course. When will you ever get this straight Alan?

Just because the Jews stole the land from the Canaanites and Philistines 15,000 years ago, then the Romans stole it from the Jews 2,000 years ago, then the Ottomans stole it from the Romans, then the Brits stole it from the Ottomans and gave it to the Jews, doesn’t mean that it legally belongs to the Jews. It belongs to the Palestinians (and a small number of Jews, less than 2% of the total population) whose ancestors have lived on the land, farmed it, and tended their flocks and orchards for more than 15,000 years.

Now, do you get it yet? I didn’t think so.

You are also wrong on the roads. You are talking about the so called “State of Israel” with the 20% Arab population. Victoria is talking about the West Bank where the Zionist invader and war criminal is stealing all the land and water rights and building private roads for Jews only, no Palestinians allowed.

Alan,

You seem to have a very high opinion of yourself and what a great job you are doing of convincing your audience that your arguments and conclusions are valid.

I think that nothing could be further from the truth. You have not been able to refute the following facts:

1. The Zionist invader is occupying stolen land that it acquired by force, with an assist from the world’s superpowers, and so has no grounds for complaint when it is attacked in return by the displaced native population.

2. Israel continues to increase its illegal acquisition of Palestinian land in the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza. It has withdrawn from Gaza (for the moment) but continues to suppress the economy and limit access to vital resources such as water, fuel and electricity.

3. Israel's policy regarding water supply in the West Bank is illegal and discriminates on racial grounds. It flagrantly breaches international law which requires Israel to ensure proper living conditions for the occupied population and to respect the Palestinians' human rights, including the right to receive a sufficient quantity of water to meet their basic needs.”

4. Israel is violating the international law on water since the water resources in the Occupied Territories were integrated into the legal and bureaucratic system of Israel, severely limiting the ability of Palestinians to develop those resources…

5. Israel’s use of groundwater of the Occupied Territories in the settlements is a breach of article 55 of the Hague Regulations.

6. Israel is in breach of Article 27 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 which prohibits an occupying state from discriminating between residents of occupied territory; since the quantity of water supplied to the settlements is vastly larger than that which is supplied to the Palestinians.

7. Israel is in breach of article 6 of the UN Convention on the Law of the Non-Navigational Uses of International Watercourses. Examination of the current division of water between Israel and the Palestinians leads to the conclusion that this division violates Palestinian rights and contravenes international water law.

8. Even Israel’s own human rights organization considers them to be racist, illegal and “discriminates on racial grounds”.

9. Israel hogs 80% of the regions water supply to keep their swimming pools full and lawns green, while leaving the Palestinians less than half the amount considered necessary for minimum health requirements by the WHO and USAID organizations.

10. The Zionist war criminals have killed more than 6 times the number of Palestinian civilians, as Palestinians have killed Israeli civilians.

11. The Zionist war criminals have killed more than 17 times the number of Palestinian children, as Palestinians have killed Israeli children.

12. Your repeated excuses that the Zionists drop leaflets to warn civilian population centers that are about to be bombed back to the stone ages, and apologizes after the fact, are disgusting in the extreme.

13. Your constant whining that suicide bombers kill women and children, a tiny fraction of the women and children slaughtered by the Zionist war criminal, is disgusting in the extreme.

Alan, why do you continue to support the bad guys? Have you no shame?

Victoria

You're good at throwing enough misinformation out there in the hope that some of it sticks with people that don't know this issue too well. To save myself time, I'll debunk one of your myths:

"Palestinians in the early 20th century owned 97.5% of the land, while Jews (native Palestinians and recent immigrants together) owned only 2.5% of the land?"

Thanks to William, I now know that the Ottoman Empire owned 80% of what is now Israel for 400 years and the Brits asministered it for another hundred. It was mostly desert back in the day and wasn't owned by anyone.

As for Jewish Roads, you are wrong. There are roads for Israeli citizens, of whom 20% are Arabs.
These Arabs can vote and attend the best Universities in Israel.

Some of your muck is probably legitimate. If there are injustices, things should change. But the biggest injustice is that the Palestinians support terrorism as a means to achieve political gain. If we allow them to gain from terrorism, the rest of the would be terrorists in the world would learn that terrorism pays off. May the Palestinians find their MLK.

I never knew I could have such a fun past-time. Thanks for giving me mild mental exercise. I say mild because most smart folks who read our posts and haven’t made up their mind would agree with me.

Alan (from a previous post) “You’ve said every Israeli is responsible for their government’s actions and you’ve never stated that Palestinian support of terrorism is horrendous.”
Rick’s Response: “ Palestinians don’t support terrorism of course. It is not terrorism to fight for your basic human rights and dignity, to kick the racist Zionist invaders and land/water thieves from your home.”
My current reply: We both know that Palestinians support racism because of multiple polls. Here’s a quote from the Pew Global Website: “In Lebanon, for example, just 34% of Muslims say suicide bombings in the defense of Islam are often or sometimes justified; in 2002, 74% expressed this view. However, Palestinians stand out for their broad acceptance of suicide bombing. Seven-in-ten-Palestinians say this tactic is at least sometimes justified.”

The Link:

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=257

It is confirmed at this link as well: Check out question 18:
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=28550

I’m not saying the Palestinians should be judged for fighting to dislodge the Jews from Israel. But they should be judged for wholeheartedly supporting the murder of Jewish children and celebrating the “martyrs” who commit such atrocities. People who wish to achieve a political gain should not be rewarded for such sentiment. You can probably find examples of Israeli atrocities. But they are few and far between and the population doesn’t celebrate the atrocities. When they get their Martin Luther King, I’ll support them.

Rick, you posted a great quote here: “We all feel much better because the Zionist terrorists apologize while they gleefully slaughter hundreds of innocent Palestinian women and children.” Yeah, dude, the Jews gleefully slaughter hundreds of innocent Palestinian women and children. You and I know this isn’t true and I suggest anyone ask an Israeli that they meet if it’s possible. As for the Harper’s article, I don’t believe the writer. But let’s pretend it’s true. You managed to find 8 bad guys with guns. Even US soldiers commit atrocities. It’s not the same as the 70% of Palestinians who approve of suicide bombings. Find a poll of Israelis who support murdering children. You can’t.

Regarding my surfer quote. I apologize if I misquoted you. I thought you said it’s fair game, an expression that I don’t use too often. It may have been another writer. But the “gleeful slaughter” part of your argument gives me back my street cred.

Alan to Rick in the last post: “To repeat an earlier point, if the Palestinians drop terrorism and institutionalized racism and terrorism, I would support them in any injustices they face.”
Rick’s Response: “Codswallop! The whole world knows that the Palestinian freedom fighters are only defending themselves with sticks and stones from the world’s foremost terrorist super powers, the USA and Israel who are practicing slow genocide upon them by withholding their water supplies.”

My current response: Blowing up buses and then celebrating the murderers isn’t sticks and stones. As for your false genocide claims regarding water, I stick with my earlier replies. Also, my I point out to any American lurkers that the US is, in Rick’s opinion, a terrorist superpower.

Rick, I don’t think you’re from Virginia. I never met anyone from that state that uses the term “Codswallop”. Are you from the Hamas disinformation center or the Hizbollah Center of Beirut?

I won’t answer the quote from Btselem. If you can’t see the difference, don’t worry. Others can.

Alan,

You fail History 101 again my friend.

You say:

“You’ve said every Israeli is responsible for their government’s actions and you’ve never stated that Palestinian support of terrorism is horrendous.”

Palestinians don’t support terrorism of course. It is not terrorism to fight for your basic human rights and dignity, to kick the racist Zionist invaders and land/water thieves from your home.

You say:

“You’ve said that a 16 year old surfer in Tel Aviv is fair game for terrorism regardless of whether his or her great-grandparents stole a Palestinian home.”

Sorry Buddy, there you go again, lying again, destroying your dwindling credibility once again.

Here is what I said in response to your ridiculous claim that the Jews may have bought 95% of their land:

You said:

“By the way, I never said the Jews bought 95% of the land. I was just asking you for argument’s sake if you would change your opinion if I could prove this fact to you. Interesting that you wouldn’t answer that question.”

It is pretty hard to take such a question seriously when we know that 83.6% of the land actually belongs to the Palestinians and only 16.4% belongs to the Zionists. But if 95% of the Zionists had actually purchased their homes and land like normal people, then no one would have a reason to consider them Zionist invaders and land thieves. Your hypothetical 16 year old girl surfing on the beach in Tel Aviv would then be no different than a 16 year old girl surfing on the beach in the French Riviera, and would not have a care in the world.

However, since this is clearly not the case, if this hypothetical 16 year old girl surfing in Tel Aviv happens to encounter a randomly fired Katyusha rocket, or suicide bomber; then that is a very unfortunate incident, for which we can thank the Zionist invaders and land thieves who occupy 80.4% of the so called “State of Israel”.

So do you get it yet? I didn’t say that it was OK to target the 16 year old girl, but if she was accidentally hit by a Katyusha rocket or suicide bomber, who mistook her for one of the terrorist Zionist invaders and land/water thieves who occupy 80.4% of the so called “State of Israel”, then that is a very unfortunate incident, for which we can thank the Zionist invaders and land thieves who occupy 80.4% of the so called “State of Israel”.

Now, do you get it yet? Or will I get this same disingenuous charge again on your next post? You know that your motives and methods are transparent to the lurkers out there who you mistakenly believe are taking your bigoted side in this issue and you continue to lose credibility the more that you dissemble and obfuscate.

You said”

“In this context especially, when you write that “B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are RACIST WAR CRIMINALS”, it necessitates a quote that says exactly that. A better quote would have been that B’tselem considers the water policy to be unethical because it discriminates on racial grounds and is illegal. That’s not the same as “Israelis are racist war criminals”. You would fail History 101 for your deliberate attempt to confuse or distort the truth.”

Are you serious? Here are the words again:

“Israel's policy regarding water supply in the West Bank is illegal and discriminates on racial grounds. It flagrantly breaches international law which requires Israel to ensure proper living conditions for the local population and to respect the Palestinians' human rights, including the right to receive a sufficient quantity of water to meet their basic needs.”

What part of “discriminates on racial grounds” and “flagrantly breaches international law” don’t you understand?

That sounds like racist war criminals to me.

Do you get it yet? I didn’t think so.

Alan.

Your posts become more confused and your credibility continues to evaporate the more desperately you try to defend the indefensible terrorist Zionist war criminal regime.

We all feel much better because the Zionist terrorists apologize while they gleefully slaughter hundreds of innocent Palestinian women and children.

Fortunately the world has had its fill of the Zionist terrorists; even young American Jews have had enough and say be gone.

[See Victoria’s post @ December 24, 2007 10:07 AM at this site: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/america/2007/11/americanisraeli_settlers_hold.html]

You ask if there are human rights organizations in Palestine; of course not. The Palestinians only have time to defend themselves from the onslaught of their terrorist neighbor who is intent on bulldozing their homes and assassinating their leadership by indiscriminately firing rockets and dropping 500 lb bombs in populous areas from the safety of US provided warplanes and helicopters from thousands of feet above.

You say:

“To repeat an earlier point, if the Palestinians drop terrorism and institutionalized racism and terrorism, I would support them in any injustices they face.”

Codswallop! The whole world knows that the Palestinian freedom fighters are only defending themselves with sticks and stones from the world’s foremost terrorist super powers, the USA and Israel who are practicing slow genocide upon them by withholding their water supplies. And you gleefully support the racist war criminals as defined by their own human rights organization.

You say:

“Israel makes every effort not to kill innocent bystanders.”

And:

“The Israelis don’t celebrate when a Palestinian child is caught in the crossfire.”

Is this your idea of a cross fire:

“Hunting Children for Sport

In a 2001 issue of Harper's Magazine [Chris Hedges, A Gaza Diary , Harper's Magazine, October 200], veteran American journalist Chris Hedges exposed how Israeli troops in Gaza systematically curse and provoke Palestinian children playing in the dunes of southern Gaza. Then, when the boys finally get irritated enough and start throwing stones, the soldiers premeditatedly respond with live ammunition from rifles fitted with silencers. “Later,” writes Hedges, “in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos.” He then concludes, “Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered, […] but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.”

Alan, wake up my friend you are supporting the bad guys.

BTW- wasnt HAMAS elected in a free democratic election to be the elected leadership?

does that mean israel only honors democracy when it agrees with israel's agenda?

well, that took about 2 seconds to find-

http://www.asiapacificforum.net/about/annual-meetings/10th-mongolia-2005/downloads/apf-member-reports/palestine.pdf
the problem with the group of human rights watchdog group-is that israel has made it impossible for the 2 offices to communicate-

i guess there were just too many questionable israeli actions getting mixed in with the hamas (didnt they get elected because they supplied the population with the basic social services destroyed by theisraeli occupation?) for the israelis to allow them to be effective-

imagine that?

PICCR-

heres another-
violence against palestinian women and girls
(by israelis)
of course its 97 pages long-

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/opt1106/opt1106webwcover.pdf

alan said- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" The Israelis don’t celebrate when a Palestinian child caught in the crossfire."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

um, yes- considering hundreds more palestinian children are killed by "accident" than israeli children-

no- the israelis dont exactly broadcast that, do they?

i dont know if that is to be considered some kind of morally superior position.

wouldnt it be more powerfully ethical if they didnt kill hundreds of children?

just a crazy thought-

would you care to elaborate a bit more on the egalitarian nature of the israeli deomcoracy?

Is it Israeli Democracy or "Jewish Democracy", you be the judge. Are you aware that:

Prior to the 1948 war, Palestinian Christians and Muslims were a two-third majority of the population of Palestine, who owned and operated 93% of Palestine's lands?

Prior to the 1948 war, most Israeli Jews were persecuted and dispossessed European Jews who made a one-third minority of the population?

Prior to the 1948 war, only on third of the Jews in Palestine were legal citizens of the country?

For Israel to become a "Jewish majority" it opted to expel and dispossess the two-third Palestinian majority?

80% of the Palestinian people were dispossessed from their homes, farms, and businesses and have been kept out for the past 54 years?

95% of Israel's lands (which is mostly owned by Palestinian refugees) is open for DEVELOPMENT to JEWS ONLY?

Only one of the 45 Zionist Jews who sign the Israeli "declaration of independence" on May 14th, 1948 was born in Palestine. The other 44 were mostly Jewish refugees who escaped their anti-Semitic Europe countries, such as Tsarist Russia, Germany, and Poland.

Israeli-Palestinian citizens live almost in segregated communities (or ghettos) because development is strictly limited outside their villages? Ironically, the word "ghetto" was invented to describe the living conditions of Eastern European Jews in Tsarist Russia!

For just being "Jewish" you gain an automatic citizenship in Israel? Plus tens of thousands of dollars in subsidies too.

Palestinian Muslims or Christians refugees, who were born in the country and later expelled, cannot gain Israeli citizenship? Of course, unless they convert to Judaism first!

PRETENDING to be Jewish in Israel is punishable by law with up to one year's IMPRISONMENT? On the other hand, if you pretend to be a Muslim or Christian the law does you no harm!

When the Palestine problem was created by Britain in 1917, more than 92% of the population of Palestine were Arabs and there were at that time no more than 56,000 Jews in Palestine? That Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Palestinians at that time lived in peace with each other?

Palestinians in the early 20th century owned 97.5% of the land, while Jews (native Palestinians and recent immigrants together) owned only 2.5% of the land?

Close to 4 million Palestinian Muslims and Christians are being subjected to Israeli laws that are different than the laws governing the 4.5 million Israeli Jews? Is this a "democratically" elected apartheid, or not, that is the question?

In the occupied West Bank there are "JEWISH ROADS" and "NON-JEWISH"?

Israel issues national identify cards where the RELIGION of the card holder is clearly shown in BOLD TYPE?

Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza drive vehicles with license plates that have DIFFERENT COLORING than the cars driven by Israeli settlers?

Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza hold ID cards that are of DIFFERENT COLORS than the cards held by Israeli settlers?

The only form of Judaism recognized by the "Jewish state" is Orthodox Judaism, so most US Jews could not get married in Israel. Furthermore, the only conversion to Judaism recognized is Orthodox, so most US converts aren't Jewish enough.

Just prior to the 1948 war, Jews owned under 7% of Palestine's land, and to increase their share after the war, they passed the "Absentees' Law" which dispossessed the Palestinian majority land owners who later became "absent". What is even more tragic was the passage of an oxymoron law, called "PRESENT ABSENTEES????' Law," which dispossessed the Palestinian-Israeli citizens who became internal refugees in Israel. It is worth noting that the internal JEWISH refugees were NOT dispossessed as a result of this RACIST LAW.

The U.S. funneled into the Israeli economy over 130 billion dollars, which is almost twice the amount devoted to rebuilding Western Europe after WW II!

Israeli democracy is a facade for "Jewish Democracy?"

Israel has nuclear weapons, and it was close to dropping one on Cairo in 1973?

Israeli soldiers use human shields in battle to minimize their casualties?

Israel killed over 20,000 Lebanese and Muslims (90% of whom are civilians) with American made and paid for weapons?

The concept of "transferring" European Jews to Palestine and "transferring" the Palestinian people out is central to Zionism. Ben-Gurion, the 1st Israeli Prime Minister, eloquently articulated this essential Zionist pillar, he stated in 1944:

"Zionism is a TRANSFER of the Jews. Regarding the TRANSFER of the [Palestinian] Arabs this is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that if the [Palestinian] Arabs are removed [to these states] this will improve their condition and not the contrary." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 159) Note the usage of the word "transfer" to signify the uprooting of the indigenous population to make room for Jewish refugees. Now a days this is a war crime called Ethnic Cleansing.

Rick:

You’ve said every Israeli is responsible for their government’s actions and you’ve never stated that Palestinian support of terrorism is horrendous. You’ve said that a 16 year old surfer in Tel Aviv is fair game for terrorism regardless of whether his or her great-grandparents stole a Palestinian home. In this context especially, when you write that “B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are RACIST WAR CRIMINALS”, it necessitates a quote that says exactly that. A better quote would have been that B’tselem considers the water policy to be unethical because it discriminates on racial grounds and is illegal. That’s not the same as “Israelis are racist war criminals”. You would fail History 101 for your deliberate attempt to confuse or distort the truth.

But this is nothing new for you. You are well versed in obscure 80 year old historical documents, know the details about Zionists leaders’ personal lives 100 years ago and understand intricacies of water rights issues. Yet somehow you didn’t pick up on the fact that Arabs vote in Israel. I believe that anyone who is as well versed in the obscure issues of that region as you would HAVE to know that Israeli Arabs vote. This last statement leads me to believe that you deliberately distort the truth but want to be seen as reasonable, so you apologize when you are caught.

To repeat an earlier point, if the Palestinians drop terrorism and institutionalized racism and terrorism, I would support them in any injustices they face. The biggest differences in our argument is that I believe in the Road Map to peace and you don’t. I also believe that if you reward terrorism, the entire world will pay for that with more terrorism. Any injustice that is being fought against by INTENTIONALLY killing innocent children should not be addressed while that tactic is being used.

As for the number of innocent Palestinians killed, it is a tragedy. But I would blame the missile launchers and bomb makers for doing these things from populated areas. There’s a war crime for you. Since Hamas is in charge, and the Palestinians voted for them, does this make every Palestinian a “racist war criminal”? Of course not.

Israel makes every effort not to kill innocent bystanders. Of course, they screw up but this is no different with any army operating against civilians. But since you feel the US military is just as guilty in Iraq as Israel is in Gaza or the West Bank, I can’t argue you on this point. I think you are wrong, but I can’t prove to you that killing non-combatants isn’t horrendous. But blame the militants and terrorists for launching missiles and building their bombs in crowded areas as a means to protect themselves.

There is a difference between Israel and the Palestinians that you don’t consider. We both know that the Palestinians honor “martyrs” and their families for killing innocent Jewish children. The Israelis don’t celebrate when a Palestinian child caught in the crossfire. Just like the US doesn’t celebrate when an Iraqi child is killed with an errant bomb. Is every civilian in the US fair game for terrorism because our military has killed so many innocent people in Iraq?

By the way, you never answered my question at the end of my December 5:56 PM post: “Rick, do you think there are Palestinian human rights groups watching over the actions of Hamas? A rhetorical question, because in Gaza, one is not allowed to have an opinion different from the Government’s. The penalty is death. You’re supporting the bad guys, Rick.”

Alan,

Here is a good site for nice people like yourself who like to root for the good guys. Notice that the Zionist terrorist war criminals have killed more than 6 times the number of Palestinian citizens as Palestinians have killed Israeli civilians. The Zionist war criminals have killed more than 17 times the number of Palestinian children as Palestinians have killed Israeli children. Alan, it is you who are supporting the bad guys.

Notice that this information was also provided by the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem.

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/pubs/20001127fs.html

Fact Sheet Number 1: Casualties in Palestine and Israel from the First Intifada until October 30, 2000

Total casualties in the Occupied Territories and Israel from December 9, 1987 to September 30, 2000:

Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli forces - 1,407
Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli civilians - 140
Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian civilians - 270
Members of the Israeli forces killed by Palestinian civilians - 135

Israeli and Palestinian minors killed from December 9, 1987 to September 30, 2000:

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli forces in the Occupied Territories - 285
Palestinian minors killed by Israeli civilians in the Occupied Territories - 23
Israeli minors killed by Palestinians in the Occupied Territories - 4
Israeli minors killed by Palestinian civilians in Israel - 14

Killings by Israeli undercover units in the Occupied Territories (including East Jerusalem) from December 9, 1987 to September 30, 2000:

Palestinians - 166
Israeli civilians - 1
Members of the Israeli forces - 4

Adapted from B’Tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

Alan:

“Btselem doesn’t use the term “racist war criminals”. Your sentence above is exposed for using that term. It isn’t in the website. Were you hoping I wouldn’t find the site?”

Are you serious? Here are the words again:

“Israel's policy regarding water supply in the West Bank is illegal and discriminates on racial grounds. It flagrantly breaches international law which requires Israel to ensure proper living conditions for the local population and to respect the Palestinians' human rights, including the right to receive a sufficient quantity of water to meet their basic needs.”

What part of “discriminates on racial grounds” and “flagrantly breaches international law” don’t you understand?

That sounds like racist war criminals to me.

Rick

Here’s your original quote: “What do you think of the B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are racist war criminals for….”

Btselem doesn’t use the term “racist war criminals”. Your sentence above is exposed for using that term. It isn’t in the website. Were you hoping I wouldn’t find the site?

As for me lying: Here is the quote from the “Jewish Propaganda Website” as you might call the Jewish Virtual Library: “Israel has fulfilled all of her obligations under the Interim Agreement. The water quota agreed upon, and more, is being supplied. Jurisdiction over water was transferred completely and on time, and Israel approved the additional digging of wells. Israel and the PA carry out joint patrols to locate cases of water theft and other water-related problems.”

The link, my friend:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html#g

The injustice regarding water could be true. If so, Arafat shouldn’t have signed the interim agreement. Israel should change its allocations. But as the Road Map to Peace suggests, the issue should not be considered until the Palestinians stop honoring “martyrs” who have killed school children. They should also stop the Hamas PBS style Mickey Mouse programs that vilify Jews. Terrorism, no matter the justification, should never be rewarded or all of our lives will become more unpleasant. When the Palestinians protest with Ghandi-like principles (or MLK, for an American reference), I’ll be there for them.

Alan:

“Can you please copy and paste a link to the part about the Israelis being “racist war criminals”? I think you were lying about this, so prove me wrong. I believe your quote was “What do you think of the B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are racist war criminals for….”

Here it is pal. How is my credibility now? I hate to say it, but I'm afraid that yours is in tatters. The quoted paragraph is at the bottom of the page.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Water/Without_Running_Water.asp

“Israel's policy regarding water supply in the West Bank is illegal and discriminates on racial grounds. It flagrantly breaches international law which requires Israel to ensure proper living conditions for the local population and to respect the Palestinians' human rights, including the right to receive a sufficient quantity of water to meet their basic needs.”

See, even Israel’s own human rights organization considers them to be racist, illegal and “discriminates on racial grounds”.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More from B’Tselem on International Law relative to water rights and the Israeli war criminals:

http://www.btselem.org/english/Water/International_Law.asp

International law on water

In examining international law, it is necessary to distinguish between Israel's obligations as an occupying state to the population under its control on one hand, and the use of water sources shared by Israel and the Palestinians, which are considered international waters, on the other.

A. Administration of the water sector in occupied territory

1. Prohibition on altering legislation

Article 43 of the 1907 Hague Regulations prohibits an occupying state from changing the legislation in effect prior to occupation. The military orders that Israel issued regarding the water resources and the supply of water in the Occupied Territories significantly changed the legal and institutional structure of the water sector. The water resources in the Occupied Territories were integrated into the legal and bureaucratic system of Israel, severely limiting the ability of Palestinians to develop those resources.

2. Illegal utilization of water resources

Article 55 of the Hague Regulations limits the right of occupying states to utilize the water sources of occupied territory. The use is limited to military needs and may not exceed past use. Use of groundwater of the Occupied Territories in the settlements does not meet these criteria and therefore breaches article 55.

3. Discrimination between Palestinians and Israeli Settlers

Article 27 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 prohibits an occupying state from discriminating between residents of occupied territory. The quantity of water supplied to the settlements is vastly larger than that which is supplied to the Palestinians. Similarly, the regularity of supply is much greater in the settlements. This discrimination is especially blatant during the summer months when the supply to Palestinians in some areas of the West Bank is reduced in order to meet the increased demand for water in the settlements receiving their water from the same pipelines.

B. Utilization of shared international water sources

Under international law, the main principle for division of shared water between states is the principle of equitable and reasonable use. This principle is based on the limited-sovereignty doctrine, which provides that, because all parts of the drainage basins of watercourses are hydrologically interdependent, states are not allowed to utilize water located in their territory as they wish, but must take into account the other states that share the resource.

This principle does not state a precise formula quantifying the rights of each state sharing an international watercourse. Rather, it lists the factors to be considered in negotiations between the states to determine the division. Article 6 of the UN Convention on the Law of the Non-Navigational Uses of International Watercourses enumerates seven of these factors:

1. The natural features of the shared watercourse (geographic, climatic, hydrologic, and the like);

2. The social and economic needs of the watercourse states;

3. The population dependent on the watercourse in each watercourse state;

4. The effects of the use of the watercourses in one watercourse state on other watercourse states;

5. Existing and potential uses of the watercourse;

Conservation, protection, and development of the water resources of the watercourse and the costs of measures taken to that effect;

The availability of alternatives to a particular planned or existing use.

Taking into account the components of the principle of equitable and reasonable use, examination of the current division of water between Israel and the Palestinians leads to the conclusion that this division violates Palestinian rights and contravenes international water law.

Alan,

On December 21 @ 9:59 AM you said:

“…you should note that in 1995 Arafat and Rabin agreed to something called the interim agreement. Here's another quote: "Israel has fulfilled all of her obligations under the Interim Agreement. The water quota agreed upon, and more, is being supplied.”

And you supplied this link to your favorite propaganda site, the Jewish Virtual Library to prove your point:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/interim.html

Unfortunately the article at this link says nothing about a water quota, let alone that Israel has fulfilled her obligations or that the agreed upon quota is being provided. Where did that nugget come from? Please provide a link that supports it. I think that you are lying about it.

Rick

The Btselem site shows that the current agreement signed by Yassir Arafat is unfair. I don’t know about the organization, but it seems legitimate. Can you please copy and paste a link to the part about the Israelis being “racist war criminals”? I think you were lying about this, so prove me wrong. I believe your quote was “What do you think of the B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are racist war criminals for….”

For the topic of asymmetric warfare being legitimate: I think there’s a difference between trying to sneak attack soldiers vs. celebrating when a bus full of school children blows up. The fact that the Palestinians attack Israeli soldiers is not nearly as heinous as the fact that they wholeheartedly support terrorism in poll after poll.

My driving point in all of these letters has been that the principle enemy the world needs to fight is terrorism, because bombs become more advanced and smaller. The world should fight together and ostracize all countries that consider blowing up school buses as an acceptable means of political gain. No matter what the injustice is in the first place. If the Palestinians give up terrorism and legitimately protest unfair Israeli policies, the world will get behind the Palestinians.

If you ever get to an impasse in your argument, it is a useful tactic to bring up an unrelated issue. You did this in your most recent post with the subject of Lebanon. Cute and childish technique, as is the name calling.

But since you did bring up Lebanon, I addressed this in earlier posts which you read, but I will post the basics for any lurkers. The Israelis dropped notifications before bombing so the residents would leave. The Israelis dropped 30,000 bombs on Lebanon and killed under 1000 people. That’s probably a better ratio of avoiding civilian casualties than the US pulls off in Iraq. It is horrible that innocent Lebanese were killed, but I blame Hezbollah for firing 5000 Iranian missiles aimed at Israeli cities. Let me go on record as saying that you already stated before that you feel the US is guilty of committing similar actions in Iraq (i.e. unintentional killing of noncombatants). I support our troops in Iraq and know that they make every effort not to kill civilians. Same with the Israelis.

Keep calling me racist. Nearly anyone reading these posts would say that I’m not. But your name calling takes away your credibility, which is an enjoyable new hobby of mine.

Rick, do you think there are Palestinian human rights groups watching over the actions of Hamas? A rhetorical question, because in Gaza, one is not allowed to have an opinion different from the Government’s. The penalty is death. You’re supporting the bad guys, Rick.

Alan:

“If the water agreement that Arafat signed in 1995 is unfair, then I agree with you that water policy should be changed.”

You just can’t bring yourself to state unequivocally that it is an unfair policy can you? That is because you are the racist anti-Semite that you hypocritically accuse others of being.

What do you think of the B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are racist war criminals for violating international law with respect to an occupied people’s water rights as I have previously noted?

Why are you surprised that an occupied and tortured people would rebel by using asymmetric warfare techniques against the terrorist Zionist invaders and land thieves who oppress them?

They are only behaving as any terrorized population would. How many Palestinian and Lebanese people including women and children have been killed by the powerful Israeli war machine for every Israeli that has been killed in return?

Rick

If the water agreement that Arafat signed in 1995 is unfair, then I agree with you that water policy should be changed. In the road map to peace, the first step is for the Palestinians to reject terrorism. Subsequent steps include negotiating borders and water rights. Since the Palestinians have not abandoned terrorism, I point the finger in their direction rather than Israel’s.

I will support changes to Arafat’s 1995 water agreement as soon as the Palestinians adopt Martin Luther King tactics and stop celebrating “martyrs” who have murdered Jewish children. The Palestinians government might also consider canceling the Mickey Mouse type shows, which teach hatred of Jews to Palestinian children.

So we both agree that Arafat’s water agreement seems unfair. The difference is that you blame the Jews while I blame terrorism. If the Palestinians abandon terrorism and negotiate a deal similar to the one that Arafat torpedoed in 2000 in Camp David, then the Palestinians will be swimming in money and Evian water. Too bad most of them would rather support terrorists and hold onto their hatred of Jews.

You repeatedly have called me an anti-Semite and racist. This opinion of yours is generated by the fact that I blame the Palestinians rather than the Israelis for not achieving change. So I will clarify: I don’t hate the Palestinians. I feel sorry for them and hope they can reject terrorism and improve their lives. I weigh the two scenarios--the possibility that Arafat signed an unfair agreement vs. negotiating changes to that agreement immediately (which rewards terrorism). Of the two, it seems logical to choose the Road Map’s solution and not to discuss this until terrorism is abandoned. The fact that I agree with the Road Map’s concept of rejecting terrorism before negotiating to change Arafat’s agreement doesn’t make me a racist. You insult people who have been victimized by racism when you call me a racist.

Alan,

For my response to your post please refer to my response to your identical post at this site:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/america/2007/11/americanisraeli_settlers_hold.html

Rick

Israel is abiding by Arafat’s signed water agreement from 1995. The West Bank receives what they are supposed to receive. And it’s more than they ever got when Jordan was running things. I believe the Road Map starts with a cessation of violence and terrorism on the part of the Palestinians. Borders and water rights deals get struck later. By the way, the road map isn’t written by the US (it also involves the UN, the EU, and Russia) so you don’t need to be concerned about unfairness that could arise due to nefarious American Jewish lobbyers.

At this time, the Palestinians prefer terrorism by a wide enough margin to have elected Hamas, the nice folks who bring you Mickey Mouse cartoons that vilify Jews, as well as erect billboards with angelic posters of “martyrs’ who have intentionally murdered children.

Once the Palestinians discard state sponsored racism and terrorism, they will have their own country, supported by the world, and will be given enough water and money to improve their lives. Unfortunately, William’s concept of humiliation driving the Palestinians seems accurate. To paraphrase, he states that many of them are driven more by their humiliation at losing wars to Jews than by a desire to improve their own economic success. They, not the Israelis, are responsible for their conditions. You might want to stop blaming the Jews until after the Palestinians have found their Martin Luther King. If they do find one, Israel will gladly leave the West Bank.

Now for Apartheid. I already mentioned that Arabs vote, attend university, and can join the military if they want to. They don’t have to live in separate cities. Check out the Arab population of Haifa, Israel’s third largest city. As for representation in parliament, did it ever occur to you that not every Arab votes for an Arabic party? Did you know that Mexican Americans make up a much larger proportion of the US than can be found in Congress? Is the US not giving Mexican Americans fair representation? Do all blacks vote for black candidates and Mexicans for Mexican candidates?

How about that first cabinet minister you mentioned? In the US, we just recently saw the first black secretary of defense and secretary of state. Is America apartheid? I notice that Black people tend to live in Detroit and whites have moved to the suburbs. Is this apartheid? There are no laws against white people living in projects in Detroit. Or blacks living in the nice suburbs. Yet this separation often exists.

I already told you that the Arab couple, if there is an injustice, will have their day in court. You seem to ignore that point, namely, that there is legal recourse when discrimination occurs. How’s the legal recourse in Saudi Arabia for rape victims? How come all the Jews fled Arab countries in the last 60 years? Do you think the courts are nice to Jews in Arabic countries?

As for schools, I already refuted your points by showing you that Arab schools have 22% of the population and 18.4% of the resources. I gave you an example that it costs less to run a school in Mississipi than in New York City. Similarly, it probably costs less to run a school in smaller Arab villages than in Tel Aviv, where rents are high and people make more money.

Alan:

“What you can’t refute about the water rights is that Yassir Arafat signed the water agreement in 1995. It is being followed to the letter. You also can’t deny that The West Bank gets more water than they did when Jordan was running things.”

Is this the agreement that you are talking about:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn5037.html

“Under an agreement signed a decade ago as part of the Oslo accord, four-fifths of the West Bank's water is allocated to Israel, though the aquifers that supply it are largely replenished by water falling onto Palestinian territory.

The new plans call for seawater to be desalinated at Caesaria on the Mediterranean coast, and then pumped into the West Bank, where a network of pipes will deliver it to large towns and many of the 250 villages that currently rely on local springs and small wells for their water.

Israel, which wants the US to fund the project, would guarantee safe passage of the water across its territory in return for an agreement that Israel can continue to take the lion's share of the waters of the West Bank. These mainly comprise underground reserves such as the western aquifer, the region's largest, cleanest and most reliable water source.”

If Arafat signed that he was an idiot; and if it is fine with you, that the Palestinian people don’t have enough water to maintain healthy living conditions, then you prove yourself to be a racist anti-Semite yet once again.

By the way, why don’t the Israelis build a desalination plant for themselves, and leave “the underground reserves such as the western aquifer, the region's largest, cleanest and most reliable water source” to the West Bank Palestinians, the rightful owners.

Alan:

“I close with my second to last paragraph in my last post because you never addressed it. You called Israel and apartheid state so I responded with the following: “You can find injustices in Israel, but they are not apartheid. Arabs can vote (which you obviously knew but didn’t admit), become elected to parliament (which you also knew but didn’t admit), and are protected by law from injustices that occur in any society. There are no signs at swimming pools or bathrooms stating “Arabs not allowed”. Your use of the term Apartheid is invalid. Compared to the rest of the Middle East, Israel is a beacon of light. Try being Jewish in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria or Lebanon.”

I have addressed this Red Herring on at least three different occasions as repeated below. My question was relative to whether Muslims were fully represented in the Israeli government in proportion to their portion of the population. I had heard that they were not, and indeed I was right. As shown by the post on December 17, the Israeli Parliament just recently approved its first Muslim minister. Also, the Palestinians, with 20% of the population have only 10% of the members of Parliament.

I had also heard that Muslims were not drafted into military service, and wondered if they were free to serve if they wished. According to the post from December 21, they are excluded from military service except for a relatively small Druze population. They also live in segregated communities, go to segregated schools, and receive fewer than their share of resources.

So the so called “State of Israel” is indeed a segregated apartheid system.

@ December 15, 2007 9:42 AM: “Vic is arguing for a secular (non-Jewish) state solution for Israel. How surprising! What does this mean? Does this mean there is no limit on the proportion of Muslim citizens? Can Muslims serve in the military, and at any level in the parliament? Please come back and elaborate”

@ December 17, 2007 1:51 PM: I was aware that they could vote, but I doubted that they (20% of the population) had fair representation in the apartheid Zionist government, and I was right.

Here is a link that I have uncovered thus far:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/210/story_21070_1.html

“Israeli Parliament Set to Approve Appointment of First Muslim Minister...

@ December 21, 2007 5:26 PM: “Here is a good article that appeared on the WP front page day before yesterday and describes some of the discriminatory practices of the
apartheid “State of Israel”.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902681.html

For Israel's Arab Citizens, Isolation and Exclusion

Here is a young, just married Palestinian couple Fatina and Ahmad Zubeidat, Arab citizens of Israel, who want to rent in Rakefet, a nearby town where 150 Jewish families live on state land close to the mall project Ahmad is building. After months of interviews and testing, the town's admission committee rejected the Arab couple on the grounds of "social incompatibility."...

Arabs and Jews study in separate schools in Israel -- the Arab system receives fewer resources…

Except for a relatively small Druze population, Arabs are excluded also from military service mandatory for all but ultra-Orthodox Jews, an essential shared experience of Israeli life and a traditional training ground for future political leaders…”

Rick

You speak of who is pumping which amount of water to where in the West Bank. I’m not a water pumping expert, so I’ll defer to your “expertise”. What you can’t refute about the water rights is that Yassir Arafat signed the water agreement in 1995. It is being followed to the letter. You also can’t deny that The West Bank gets more water than they did when Jordan was running things.

You accuse me of being racist--where do you get that idea? Also, I couldn’t find the quote “that’s fine with me” in my last post. I believe the quote was “If the amount of water was good enough for Yassir Arafat, it’s good enough for me.” I still stand by it. Do you think Arafat was hoodwinked and bamboozled? He never seemed like that sort of guy to me.

From your last post, we now know that Arabs didn’t like Jewish immigration in the 1800’s and early part of the 1900’s. All of those immigrant haters are dead. The Palestinians should deal with the fact that they will end up on 85% of the land that Britain administered until 1949 and the Jews will end up on 15%. But the Palestinians can’t deal with that fact because the state next to them would have the ‘zionist invaders’ as you call them.

I close with my second to last paragraph in my last post because you never addressed it. You called Israel and apartheid state so I responded with the following: “You can find injustices in Israel, but they are not apartheid. Arabs can vote (which you obviously knew but didn’t admit), become elected to parliament (which you also knew but didn’t admit), and are protected by law from injustices that occur in any society. There are no signs at swimming pools or bathrooms stating “Arabs not allowed”. Your use of the term Apartheid is invalid. Compared to the rest of the Middle East, Israel is a beacon of light. Try being Jewish in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria or Lebanon.”

Alan:

“They also give the West Bankers more water than the Jordanians ever did before the Israelis took over the administration.”

Did the Jordanians ever pump 80% of the water from the West Bank Mountain Aquifers to supply the citizens of Jordan while forbidding the Palestinians to dig wells? Did they do this even though the average Palestinian only has 50% of what WHO and USAID consider the minimum necessary to maintain health, and in some cases only 7% of the minimum required daily allowance? If so, please provide your reference to support this. Please exclude reference to your Jewish Virtual Library propaganda.

And you say this is “fine with me”. Don’t you think that your racist anti-Semitism is showing again?

“After legal Jewish immigration based on land and home purchases, the Arabs rioted and attacked in order to “drive the Jews into the Sea”. I guess they don't like immigrants too much.”

They like having their country over run by immigrants about as much as we do, and rightly so. There was no “legal immigration” because the local native population was opposed to it. The corrupt imperialists who allowed it did not represent the people.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/concepts/d2.html

Under Ottoman Rule 1882 - 1917

From the beginning Jewish settlement met with opposition from the local Arabs. While at most times this opposition was dormant, there were many instances when it was expressed publicly, taking the form of sporadic attacks, usurpation of lands and the like…

In 1891, nine years after the beginning of the first aliyah, the first sign of political opposition to Zionism made its appearance. Arab notables from Jerusalem called upon the Ottoman administration to prohibit the immigration of and the sale of land to Jews. This request was repeated time and again…

One of the most important results of the Young Turks revolt in 1908, which brought to the fore new rulers, was the rise of Arab nationalism.

The Arab national movement developed mostly in Syria, Lebanon and the Land of Israel, where Arab newspapers were founded and engaged in systematic incitement against Jewish immigration and settlement.

In Constantinople, the Arab members of parliament denounced Jewish settlement in the Land of Israel and described the Zionist Movement as a danger to the Ottoman Empire.

Anti-Jewish riots in 1920 and in 1921

In March 1920 anti-Jewish riots broke out in Jerusalem ("Bloody Passover"). The British military authorities gave the Arabs a free hand, while arresting the Jewish defenders, led by Vladimir Jabotinsky, who were sentenced to long terms of imprisonment.

Rick

I forgot to mention that the flocks and orchards you speak of were mostly desert planes that were deserted. Most of the land was unoccupied.

Rick:

So the Ottoman Empire, the British Government and the Israeli Government administered 85% of the land for 500 years. And you still blame every single Jew in Israel for stealing all of the land from Palestinian landowners. We’ve come to an impasse. Thank goodness that most lurkers reading this would agree with me that you can’t blame every single Israeli for the actions of successive governments that have controlled the land for 500 years. I made the point that the Jews don’t blame German teenagers for the actions of their complicit Great Grandparents. The Palestinians have no right to kill Israeli children for their Great Grandparents actions, or according to the 85% number above, inactions. Do you still think every Israeli is a “Zionist Invader”? I know the answer to this rhetorical question but some lurkers might not.

The fact that you still think every Israeli teenager is fair game for Palestinian terrorism is a good thing for my side because people see who you really are.

You ask: “How does the fact that the distant capital of the Ottoman Empire exerted administrative control over the region for 400 years give Britain and the USA authority to displace the native population and supplant it with the Zionist invaders? And why should we want to do so?” The Ottomans, the Brits and the Jews didn’t displace anyone. After legal Jewish immigration based on land and home purchases, the Arabs rioted and attacked in order to “drive the Jews into the Sea”. I guess they don't like immigrants too much. Many Palestinians fled. There was an exchange of 400,000 Jews fleeing Arab countries for 400,000 Palestinians who left Israel. It’s a wash. The Jordanians and Lebanese should have settled those people the same way Pakistan settled a huge migration of Muslims from India in the late 1940’s.

RE--Your WHO water argument. The Palestinians need more water. I agree it’s unfair that Israeli settlers get more water than Palestinians. But the fact is that the Israelis have observed the interim agreement that Yassir Arafat signed and approved. They also give the West Bankers more water than the Jordanians ever did before the Israelis took over the administration. Again, we’re at an impass, but I am happy and confident to report that most normal folks will side with me again on this one: If the amount of water was good enough for Yassir Arafat, it’s good enough for me.

I agree that the couple in the article you’ve mentioned is being treated unfairly and expect the Israeli courts to come to that conclusion. This beats the Saudi Courts, which issues lashings to rape victims. Or the Jordanian courts, which only recently started punishing the perpetrators of “honor killings”, where it’s OK to kill your sister or daughter if she dates the wrong guy.

You can find injustices in Israel, but they are not apartheid. Arabs can vote (which you obviously knew but didn’t admit), become elected to parliament (which you also knew but didn’t admit), and are protected by law from injustices that occur in any society. There are no signs at swimming pools or bathrooms stating “Arabs not allowed”. Your use of the term Apartheid is invalid. Compared to the rest of the Middle East, Israel is a beacon of light. Try being Jewish in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria or Lebanon.

Keep up your good search for more reasons to label all Israeli Jews as Zionist Invaders and to suggest they deserve the terrorism that the Palestinians and Hezbollah inflict upon them.

Simple: What do you think of Rick? You never answered my questions about Kuwait. I know you've got Christmas plans, but I'm anxious.

Alan:

“…you should note that in 1995 Arafat and Rabin agreed to something called the interim agreement. Here's another quote: "Israel has fulfilled all of her obligations under the Interim Agreement. The water quota agreed upon, and more, is being supplied.”

Here is an article from the Foundation for Middle East Peace in Washington D.C. to refute your Jewish Virtual Library propaganda.

Note that according to both the World Health Organization (WHO) and the U.S Agency for International Development (USAID), a minimum of 100 liters a day per capita are needed for balanced and healthy domestic consumption in rural households. According to B’Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization, the Zionists allocate more than three times this amount (350 liters/day) and about 5 times the amount that the Palestinians receive (35-80 liters/day).

http://www.fmep.org/analysis/articles/water_policy_maher.html

“The Mountain Aquifer underlying, for the most part, the West Bank, provides approximately 30% of Israel’s water supply. It supplies Israel’s growing settlements as well as its military infrastructure in the West Bank, and a substantial amount is redirected to the state of Israel proper. In terms of groundwater obtained, Israel “receives 79% of the Mountain Aquifer and the Palestinians 21%.”

The discrepancy in comparative usage and consumption is glaring…And Palestinian residents continue to be denied access to surface water from the Lower Jordan River. As a result of this lopsided water usage, water consumption levels are reaching dangerously low levels in certain Palestinian areas.

According to recommended standards of the World Health Organization (WHO) and the U.S Agency for International Development (USAID), a minimum of 100 liters a day per capita are needed for balanced and healthy domestic consumption in rural households. In contrast, B’Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization, documents that Israeli per capita consumption of water already reaches 350 l/day, about five-times Palestinian consumption. Per capita consumption of water in Israeli settlements, most of which are strategically located directly above main water extraction sources, can reach even higher levels, estimated at “seven-fold” the Palestinian consumption rate. In contrast, Palestinian consumption rates per capita vary between 35-80 l/c/d , well below WHO and USAID recommendations, and in some communities, water consumption can dip to as low as 7 l/c/d under certain conditions.”

Alan:

“Government land can be leased by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land.”

Here is a good article that appeared on the WP front page day before yesterday and describes some of the discriminatory practices of the apartheid “State of Israel”. I’m sure that you will enjoy it and find it enlightening.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902681.html

For Israel's Arab Citizens, Isolation and Exclusion

Here is a young, just married Palestinian couple Fatina and Ahmad Zubeidat, Arab citizens of Israel, who want to rent in Rakefet, a nearby town where 150 Jewish families live on state land close to the mall project Ahmad is building. After months of interviews and testing, the town's admission committee rejected the Arab couple on the grounds of "social incompatibility."...

They petitioned Israel's high court to end such screening, claiming discrimination, a charge town officials are challenging.

"We can't just be good citizens," said Fatina, 27, who is expecting the couple's first child. "If they won't develop our villages, then we will choose where we want to live. The problem lies not with us, but with Jewish society that does not accept the other."

With most of Israel's land controlled by a government agency, Israeli Arabs have long had more trouble acquiring property than Jews, who outnumber them five to one in a population of about 6.5 million people. In response, Arab lawmakers joined a Jewish parliamentary majority this year in endorsing the construction of a new Arab city in the Galilee, where demographic rivalry and ethnic separation are most pronounced. Arabs say it will be the first city built on their behalf since the state's founding...

Arabs and Jews study in separate schools in Israel -- the Arab system receives fewer resources…

Except for a relatively small Druze population, Arabs are excluded also from military service mandatory for all but ultra-Orthodox Jews, an essential shared experience of Israeli life and a traditional training ground for future political leaders…

Alan:

“You're ignoring my first paragraph in the last post. How come?”

Here it is:

“I still don't get it. To summarize, the Ottoman Empire owned 83% of the land and the Israeli government administers it now. How does that land belong to the Palestinians? It was government "owned" before and remains government owned, probably for a hell of a long time. I think that the Ottoman Empire was around for a while. When did the Turks first appropriate the land from the Palestinians?”

The reason that I ignored this is that it has been answered so many times that I don’t figure that it will be productive to answer it once again; but here goes anyway:

Just because “Johnny did it” doesn’t mean that it’s OK for you to do it. Didn’t your mother tell you that when you were younger. I’ll bet she did, many times, I can hear her now.

Just because the Jews stole the publicly (Government) and privately owned land, from the Canaanites and Philistines 15 millennia ago, then the Romans stole it from the Jews 2 millennia ago, then the Ottomans stole it from the Romans, then the Brits stole it from the Ottomans and gave it to the Jews, doesn’t mean that it legally belongs to the Jews. It belongs to the Palestinians (and a small number of Jews, ~2% of the total population) whose ancestors have lived on the land, farmed it, and tended their flocks and orchards for possibly more than 15 millennia, and at least for many centuries.

Now, do you get it yet? I didn’t think so.

Rick

Check out this nice TV program from your friends in Hamas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9lL81QhiR8

Rick

Since you also love talking about water, you should note that in 1995 Arafat and Rabin agreed to something called the interim agreement. Here's another quote: "Israel has fulfilled all of her obligations under the Interim Agreement. The water quota agreed upon, and more, is being supplied. Jurisdiction over water was transferred completely and on time, and Israel approved the additional digging of wells. Israel and the PA carry out joint patrols to locate cases of water theft and other water-related problems."

Here's the link to the Interim Agreement

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/interim.html

Arafat signed it. Israel observes it. Note that Israel has more water than the West Bank and Gaza, and that Israeli Arabs use more than the West Bank. Also note that Israel increased the amount of Water going to the West Bank from Israel. Israel gives more water to the West Bank than Jordan did before the Israeli's took over in 1967.

Rick

Here's something else I dug up. "Of the total area of Israel, 92 percent belongs to the State and is managed by the Land Management Authority. It is not for sale to anyone, Jew or Arab. The remaining 8 percent of the territory is privately owned. The Arab Waqf (the Muslim charitable endowment), for example, owns land that is for the express use and benefit of Muslim Arabs. Government land can be leased by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land."

Rick

You're ignoring my first paragraph in the last post. How come?

Alan:

“What percent of the land and homes formerly occupied by Palestinians was taken over by other Palestinians? Remember my point about Palestinians living in Palestinian villages. When they left, how many of their homes were taken over by their neighbors?”

Why should we assume that the current Palestinian land owners with only 3.25% of the land “took over” their neighbors’ land? Isn’t that a bit of a stretch? Isn’t it far more likely that the 5 Million Zionist invaders who now hold 96.75% of the land took over the refugees’ land? Aren’t you allowing your racism and anti-Semitism to show a bit?

Rick

I still don't get it. To summarize, the Ottoman Empire owned 83% of the land and the Israeli government administers it now. How does that land belong to the Palestinians? It was government "owned" before and remains government owned, probably for a hell of a long time. I think that the Ottoman Empire was around for a while. When did the Turks first appropriate the land from the Palestinians?

What percent of the land and homes formerly occupied by Palestinians was taken over by other Palestinians? Remember my point about Palestinians living in Palestinian villages. When they left, how many of their homes were taken over by their neighbors?

Allan:

“Your math doesn’t add up. There was a lot of dead space in what is now Israel that wasn’t occupied. Why don’t you find out how much land was in fact owned by the Palestinians, many of whom are still in Israel.”

Well, the JNF has purchased 13.1%, the Zionists have purchased 3.25%, the Palestinians who live in Israel have purchased 3.25% and the Israeli government has 80.4% that it inherited from the British Mandate. This 80.4% was Ottoman Empire government land, so belonged to (and still belongs to) the Palestinian people. The Palestinians who live in Israel and the refugees thus own 83.6% of the “State of Israel”; while the Zionists and JNF own the remaining 16.4% (3.25 + 13.1%).

Alan again:

“By the way, I never said the Jews bought 95% of the land. I was just asking you for argument’s sake if you would change your opinion if I could prove this fact to you. Interesting that you wouldn’t answer that question.”

It is pretty hard to take such a question seriously when we know that 83.6% of the land actually belongs to the Palestinians and only 16.4% belongs to the Zionists. But if 95% of the Zionists had actually purchased their homes and land like normal people, then no one would have a reason to consider them Zionist invaders and land thieves. Your hypothetical 16 year old girl surfing on the beach in Tel Aviv would then be no different than a 16 year old girl surfing on the beach in the French Riviera, and would not have a care in the world.

However, since this is clearly not the case, if this hypothetical 16 year old girl surfing in Tel Aviv happens to encounter a randomly fired Katyusha rocket, or suicide bomber; then that is a very unfortunate incident, for which we can thank the Zionist invaders and land thieves who occupy 80.4% of the so called “State of Israel”.

Rick

Never stated that Israel bought 95% of the land. What I wanted to know is whether or not you would change your mind if I could have proved they did. It was telling that you wouldn't consider that issue.

Alan,

Concerning your ridiculous claim that the Jews “may have” purchased 95% of the land of the so called “State of Israel” legally, here is an interesting article from Middle East Quarterly that claims that the true number is 16.4%. So I stand corrected, all Israeli Jews may not be land thieves; only 83.6% of them are:

http://www.meforum.org/article/370

What do you think about them as a source? I’m sure that they are not as unbiased as The Jewish Virtual Library, but they claim to be an honest source of information. Here is what they say about themselves:

“Since its founding in 1994, the Middle East Quarterly has become America's most authoritative journal of Middle Eastern affairs. Policymakers, opinion-makers, academics, and journalists turn first to the Quarterly, for in-depth analysis of the rapidly-changing landscape of the world's most volatile region. The Quarterly publishes groundbreaking studies, exclusive interviews, insightful commentary, and hard-hitting reviews that tackle the entire range of contemporary concerns – from politics to economics to culture, across a region that stretches from Morocco to Afghanistan. The Quarterly, founded by Daniel Pipes and edited by Michael Rubin, appears in a print edition, and is available in full-text (except the current issue) on this website.

The Quarterly welcomes submissions of original articles, and will consider pre-publication of chapters from forthcoming books. The Quarterly specializes in timely and expeditious publication of articles that impact on today's critical issues.”

[I would say that they are about as unreliable as The Jewish Virtual Library given the pro-Israeli slant on the article that follows; nevertheless it will prove useful for our purposes. It will show that in 1901, 8.7% of the current land area of the “State of Israel” had been purchased by the Jewish National Fund (JNF). More than 70% of the remainder was public land vested in the British Mandatory Authority (Meaning that it was owned by the people, and the vast majority of the people were Palestinians).

With the establishment of the “State of Israel” in 1948, the new government inherited the state-owned lands formerly in the possession of British Mandatory authority as well as property abandoned by Arab refugees. The situation today is that 80.4% of the land is owned by the government, 13.1% is owned by the JNF (These lands were never sold, either to Jews or Arabs, but instead were leased on a long—term basis for kibbutzim and other forms of Jewish settlement), and only 6.5% is evenly divided between Arab and Jewish owners. So the 13.1% of land owned by the JNF plus 3.25% privately owned by Jews amounts to a total of 16.4% of the land of the current “State of Israel” that was actually purchased by the Jews; a far sight from your 95% number.]

An interesting article in today’s WP on Allen and William’s favorite anti-Semite; i.e. Arab hater brethren:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/13/AR2007121301470_pf.html

Churchill's Other Alliance
Why the British leader bucked the anti-Semitism of his time.

Reviewed by Glenn Frankel

Sunday, December 16, 2007; BW04

CHURCHILL AND THE JEWS

A Lifelong Friendship

By Martin Gilbert

Henry Holt. 352 pp. $30

"Even Winston had a fault," Gen. Edward Louis Spears, a dear friend of Winston Churchill, once told historian Martin Gilbert. "He was too fond of Jews."...

Churchill's profound admiration for the Jews, which was not shared by many of his closest political colleagues, was all the more amazing because it survived the rise of Bolshevism, which Churchill abhorred and which he believed was dominated, intellectually and politically, by men and women of Jewish origin. It even survived the turbulent years during and after World War II when Zionist extremists conducted a campaign of political murder against British officials, policemen and soldiers. That campaign reached its nadir with the 1944 assassination in Cairo of Lord Moyne, Britain's top colonial administrator in the region and one of Churchill's closest friends, and the 1946 bombing of British administration offices at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 people died...
Why did the great man shower his affection on a people that could be, by his own reckoning, so cantankerous and problematic? It was, Gilbert writes, partly because Churchill saw Jewish ethics as the foundation stone for Western moral teachings... [Codswallop!]

It's also the case that Churchill had little use for Muslims... [A true anti-Semite in the tradition of Allan and William]

Churchill was often accused by political opponents and anti-Semites of being in the pocket of wealthy Jews...

Lord Alfred Douglas, the poet and former lover of playwright Oscar Wilde, alleged that Churchill accepted bribes from Jewish financiers during World War I to manipulate wartime information for their financial advantage while he was secretary of the Royal Navy. Douglas was convicted of criminal libel and sentenced to six months in prison. [Let that be a lesson to you, it never pays to speak truth to power.]

Joseph

A few more thoughts. Israel did do wrong. Not as much wrong as the surrounding Arab countries that have repeatedly tried to "drive the Jews into the sea". The Israelis exhibit religious tolerance, unlike their neighbors, who, last time I checked, don't have too many functioning synagogues. Arabs can vote, enter University, Parliament, etc.

My view of history is different than yours. In my view, the Arabs couldn't accept the rate of Jewish immigration and rioted. Jerusalem's holy man, the Grand Mufti, was Hitler's buddy. Nice religious leader!!! There was a war for the land, started by the Arabs in 1948, designed to kill the Jews. Arab residents fled and Jewish residents were expelled from Arabic Countries. Funny enough, the numbers were about the same. It is sad that Jordan, which is half Palestinian, refuses to allow Palestinians from the West Bank refugee camps to settle in Jordan, even though they speak the same language and share the same religion. Even though in 1948, this was one place administered by the British. The Palestinians should make peace and live in Jordan and the West Bank with parts of Jerusalem as their capital. Unfortunately, they are too preocupied with the destruction of Israel to do so.

One last question: What do you think of Kuwait's ethnic cleansing of 400,000 Palestinians in the 1990's? Many of them had been living there for generations. Why do you think there was no Arab outcry?

Joseph

You're quite angry for a guy who is wrong so often.

First, I attach a table showing that Arab students number 22% of the children in Israel with 18.4% of the budget. Less than Jews, but not six times less. And I bet their teachers and principles can be paid less than in Tel Aviv, which is mostly Jewish and has high housing costs. New York teachers make less than teachers in Mississippi. New York schools cost more to run than schools in Mississipi.

Here's the link: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/ISRAEL0901-15.htm

The following quote from your post shows how highly evolved and eloquent you are: "And you tell me that Israel doesn't celebrate when Arabic children die." I think you're a bit misinformed. Except for fringe lunatics, I can speak for Jews and say that the majority doesn't celebrate the deaths of Palestinian children. Sorry Joseph, a few letters by Jewish school kids is not the same as the 50-70% of Palestinians who support suicide bombings in poll after poll. Israel doesn't put child murderers (Martyr's) faces in angelic poses on billboards. As for WWII, please show me an article where Jews murdered German Children or "passed out candy" in refugee camps celebrating their deaths.

Good guys vs. Bad Guys. See my last post. Sorry you're such an angry person. You shouldn't let it affect your posts. Your point about the Litani river is interesting but your hatred toward others ruins your contributions. Have a nice Christmas.

You're quite angry for a guy who is wrong so often.

First, I attach a table showing that Arab students number 22% of the children in Israel with 18.4% of the budget. Less than Jews, but not six times less. And I bet their teachers and principles can be paid less than in Tel Aviv, which is mostly Jewish and has high housing costs. New York teachers make less than teachers in Mississippi.

Here's the link: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/ISRAEL0901-15.htm

The following quote from your post shows how highly evolved and eloquent you are: "And you tell me that Israel doesn't celebrate when Arabic children die." I think you're a bit misinformed. Except for fringe lunatics, I can speak for Jews and say that the majority doesn't celebrate the deaths of Palestinian children. Sorry Joseph, a few letters by Jewish school kids is not the same as the 50-70% of Palestinians who support suicide bombings in poll after poll. Israel doesn't put child murderers (Martyr's) faces in angelic billboards. As for WWII, please show me an article where Jews murdered German Children or "passed out candy" in refugee camps celebrating their deaths.

Good guys vs. Bad Guys. See me last post. Sorry you're such an angry person. You shouldn't let it affect your posts. Your point about the Litani river is interesting but your hatred toward others ruins your contributions. Have a nice Christmas.

And here is a case study that gives footnoted background on Israel's interest in the Litani River:

http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/litani.htm

Alan, you are completely filled with assertions and beliefs that you have no real basis for. You seriously do not know what you are writing about.

"Hizbollah and/or Hamas: Institutionalized racist Television programs and school texts instructing that hating Jews is a good thing ..."

And we only have various news outlets instructing that hating Arabs and Muslims is a good thing. By our standards, our outlets are at least more subtle than Hezbollah or Hamas; by their standards, who knows?

"Israel: ... yes there is subtle racism that is not as severe as in the US"

Uh, you base this on what, exactly? Oh - nothing. Did you know that in Israel, education spending on Arab children is 1/6 that of spending on Jewish children? What do you think would happen in the US if we spent 1/6 as much on African American children's education as we do on white children's? Oh, but our racism is more severe than Israel's. Poppycock, Alan. Poppycock. I might also mention how Arab protesters tend to get shot dead in Israel, while Jewish protesters never do.

"... they do not celebrate when Arabic children die."

Some of them do, you fool. School children in Israel have shocked members of the IDF by writing them "morale" letters asking that they kill a lot of Arabs for them. Israel's famous female Prime Minister apparently said, "How can I sleep at night when so many Arabs are born every day?" I will also direct you to this study of malnutrition effects of Israel's siege of Palestine, with the caveat that this was prepared BEFORE things got really bad: http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/reports/Nutritional_Assessment.pdf

And you tell me that Israel doesn't celebrate when Arabic children die. I guess most butchers don't celebrate when a calf is slaughtered, but they still slaughter calves.

"Remember this. The Jews never celebrated the deaths of German children during Dresden's bombing. Moreoever, the Jews don't hold German Great Grandchildren responsible for the actions of Germany 65 years ago."

Remember this, Alan: you, first of all, don't speak for all Jews, nor do you even know what Jews did or did not do when Dresden was fire-bombed. To pretend that you do makes you an ass yet again, Alan. Also, a distinct difference between Germany's history with the Jews and Israel's history with the Palestinians - pay close attention here, Alan - is that the Germans recognized that what they did was horribly, horribly wrong, and endeavored to make restitutions for it. Israel, spurred on by idiots like you, has never acknowledged that it stole the Palestinians' homeland and ethnically cleansed them. If Israel wants forgiveness, first it has to acknowledge that WHAT IT DID WAS WRONG. I'm not holding my breath.

Scanning the newspapers this morning I see that Paris conferees have pledged $7.4 Billion in aid to the Palestinian Authority, saying that an infusion of cash would help the peace process begun by the United States last month in Annapolis, Md.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/17/AR2007121700210.html

“But some delegates said that pumping money into the West Bank and Gaza Strip would not lead to long-term economic growth or political moderation as long as Israel continued expanding Jewish settlements and imposing a regime of checkpoints and closures that was strangling the Palestinian economy...

"Economic development is the best guarantee of lasting peace and long-term security for Israel," said French President Nicolas Sarkozy, the conference host...

But it was unclear how much of the $7.4 billion pledged Monday would go to Gaza, which is controlled by Hamas, a radical Islamic group whose forces expelled the Palestinian Authority from the strip in June.

Events that followed the Nov. 27 Annapolis conference contributed to Palestinian resentment here and in the territories leading up to the Paris meeting. A week after both sides pledged to adhere to the U.S.-backed "road map" for peace -- a plan launched in 2003 that calls for Israel to stop settlement activities and for Palestinians to disarm militant groups and boost security -- Israel announced the construction of more than 300 homes on occupied land on the outskirts of Jerusalem.

"I'll be eager to implement all our commitments under the road map, and I expect the Israeli side to do the same, comprehensively, and without excuses from our side or theirs," Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas told the delegates. "I expect them to stop all settlement activities, without exceptions."

There is a fat chance that the Zionists will let up on their expansionist settlements and strangle hold on the Palestinian economy. They will prefer to keep their West Bank settlements, hog 80% of the water supply to keep their lawns green and swimming pools full, while denying the Palestinian natives the right to drill wells; even though both the UN and USA agree that the Palestinians are being deprived the minimum amount of water to maintain health.

Some people cannot be lived with; they must be expelled once again from the Middle East.

Joseph

I doubt that your Litani river explanation holds water (couldn't resist the pun). However, I can't prove you are wrong about that. It just seems that Israel might have stayed in Lebanon longer if their aims were to maintain control of that river. Also, they would never sacrifice their soldier's lives as a pretext for a war.

As for Israel's wickedness, Hezbollah started that war and launched Iranian missiles.

More about why I think what I do (ie. why the blood flow to my brain is minimal):

Hizbollah and/or Hamas: Institutionalized racist Television programs and school texts instructing that hating Jews is a good thing, Honoring Martyrs who blow up buses with school children. No tolerance for other opinions. No freedom of press. Murder Journalists who disagree with big shots. Homophobia. Misogyny. Lack of religious freedom. Celebrate 9/11. Support Bin Laden. Riot over Danish Cartoons.

Israel: They make nice medicines, pretty good in biotech, computers, microchips, agriculture, allow Arabs to vote and pray freely (yes there is subtle racism that is not as severe as in the US), Women can be Prime Minister, they do not celebrate when Arabic children die. They tried to give back 95% of the West Bank and Gaza but the Palestinians still want to kill them.

So my ultimate reason for thinking the way I do? It's the good guys versus the bad guys on this one.

Remember this. The Jews never celebrated the deaths of German children during Dresden's bombing. Moreoever, the Jews don't hold German Great Grandchildren responsible for the actions of Germany 65 years ago.

Alan -

"Can you think of a reason why they would want to increase the tension on that border?"

Yes: so that if they decide that they need to invade Lebanon and divert the water of the Litani River later on, they will easily be able to find a pretext for doing so. Also, by keeping the region around the Litani undevelopable, as by laying land mines, Israel avoids having the Lebanese make use of the Litani water so that, in the event of a future diversion, Israel can claim that no one was using the water anyway.

"Since Russia’s crimes in Chechnya are far worse than Israel’s crimes in Lebanon, why would anyone focus on Israel as the principle world devil rather than Russia? Answer: a lot of anti-Semitism."

You're an ass, Alan, for imagining that you know why other people think what they do. I'll tell you for myself that the reason I'm more concerned with Israel's wickedness than with Russia's admittedly greater wickedness: I'M BANKROLLING ISRAEL'S WICKEDNESS. Are you feeling me, Alan? Israel's wickedness is MY wickedness, and before I start looking around the world pointing fingers, I think I ought to clean up my own act. Kapeesh?

Now, would you like me to reciprocate and tell you why you think all the things you do? It has to do with lack of blood flow to the brain.

Joseph

Thanks for the well written reply. My answers follow.

So 5 months before the Lebanon war, Israel allegedly shot this shephard. I say allegedly because I can’t research this topic. If they did, we both know it was probably a mistake. What I will say is that Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 and would like nothing more than to demilitarize that border. In short, they don’t want to be in Lebanon. Can you think of a reason why they would want to increase the tension on that border? No motivation that I can think of. They are obviously not expansionist if they left the country. We all know that Hezbollah, on the hand, has ample motivation to cause tension on that border. And when the war arrived last year, Hibollahs goal was to kill as many civilians as possible—those missiles were aimed at cities rather than military targets. Fortunately, Hezbollah adherents study Koran more than science, or Israel would be in real trouble.

If Israel wanted to kill civilians, it has the military capability to do so much more damage. Remember, they’re the only airforce I’ve heard of that announces the next day’s bombing plans by dropping leaflets instructing residents to stay out of harm’s way. I’m sure that dropping such leaflets probably also allows missile launcher militants to pack up and go.

Israel kills Lebanon’s civilians in the same way that civilians are killed in every war. The Israelis try to take out missile launchers aimed at their cities. Considering that they launched 10,000 sorties and killed under 1000 lebanese civilians, it’s obvious they weren’t trying to kill these civilians. I bet their ratio for sorties compared to killing noncombatants is no different than the US airforce's ration in Iraq. And much lower than Russia’s was in Chechnya. Since Russia’s crimes in Chechnya are far worse than Israel’s crimes in Lebanon, why would anyone focus on Israel as the principle world devil rather than Russia? Answer: a lot of anti-Semitism.

How about blaming Hezbollah for setting up missile launches from civilian areas, a much bigger crime in my opinion than Israeli aircraft flying over their country.

Alan, regarding the 2006 Israeli assault on Lebanon in response to a July 12 incursion and attack on an IDF patrol also followed a February 1 shooting of a 15 year old shepherd in Lebanon by the IDF. See http://www.gnn.gov.uk/content/detail.asp?ReleaseID=186599&NewsAreaID=2&NavigatedFromSearch=True and http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/sc8652.doc.htm.

From the latter: "Noting that the past month had witnessed one shooting incident and a subsequent exchange of fire across the Blue Line, he (ALVARO DE SOTO, United Nations Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process) said that on 1 February, the Israel Defense Forces had shot a Lebanese shepherd in the Shab’a Farms area. In response to that shooting, on 3 February, Hizbollah had fired two rockets in the direction of an Israel Defense Forces position in the area in which the shepherd’s body had been found. The Israel Defense Forces had responded with artillery, small-arms fire and two air strikes. Hizbollah had responded with small-arms fire and 15 Katyusha rockets. Three artillery rounds fired from unknown locations had impacted approximately 200 metres east of a United Nations position near Kafr Shuba. Israeli air violations of the Blue Line had continued, albeit less frequently, during the past month. According to Lebanese military and media reports, Israeli jets had violated Lebanese airspace on 14 February during the first anniversary of Hariri’s assassination, although they had not been observed by the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL). The United Nations reiterated its call on the Israeli authorities to halt those breaches of Lebanese sovereignty and fully respect the Blue Line."

A question, Alan: if Israel has the right to retaliate against Hezbollah for violating its territory and killing its citizens, does Lebanon hor Hezbollah have the right to retaliate against Israel for violating Lebanon's territory and killing its citizens? Or is retaliation a right that only white people have?

Alan -

I brought the 1973 War up because it was during and after that war that US bankrolling of Israel reached its current level, and it was in the aftermath of that war that Israel and Egypt signed their peace treaty, under pressure and a shower of money from the US.

Regarding Lebanon, Israel violates Lebanese airspace on a virtually daily basis; this is an act of war - check it out. Israel also enters Lebanese territory and even kills innocent Lebanese whenever it feels like it, and the US takes no notice. But when Hezbollah crosses into Israel, the presses stop, and what a huge provocation it is! Why do you suppose this blatant double standard exists, Alan?

Israel also flies into Syrian airspace all the time, which, again, is an act of war.

I think Israel gets aid from the US because the Israel Lobby has convinced almost the entire Congress that giving aid to Israel is necessary for their careers. I'm that some Israeli lobbyists are content to see the US harmed as long as Israel benefits, yes. I don't think that applies to a majority or even a significant minority of the lobbyists, though. A lot probably do not make enough of a distinction between the interests of Israel and the interests of the US, though, for that to be a meaningful question: to these, any benefit to Israel is a benefit to the US, but also any harm to the US is a harm to Israel. So if Israel moves ahead two steps and the US is set back one step, that's still good for the US. I don't think this is anything like the truth, but I think a lot of people sincerely believe it.

Alan,

If the Zionists don’t like having missiles raining down on their civilian population centers, then they should evacuate their stolen homes and land.

Victoria

You need to read more carefully. I said Israel bombed Syria to stop its evil regime from obtaining nuclear weapons. I used Hama as an example of that regime’s propensity for mass murder.

Your math is off. Six million Israelis and Three Billion dollars. I believe that’s 500 bucks for every Jew, not 23 thousand.

Egypt has been given over 2 billion in aid annually since the 1970’s.

Israel didn’t attack Lebanon. Nasrallah and his cronies attacked Israel. When the Syrians left land mines in the Golan Heights after 1973, the Israelis were caring enough to tell their children not to play in the fields until the land mines were cleared. Cluster bombs are terrible weapons but are used by many countries.

Please respond to the next question. How do you feel about Nasrallah attacking Israel after Israel had withdrawn from Lebanon? What should the Israelis have done to the missile launchers who were raining missiles on civilian population centers in Israel? Did you know that Israel dropped leaflets warning the residents (and terrorists!) of their plans to bomb?

I like your point about Turkey, but who are they fighting? I hardly think the Kurds are an existential threat to Turkey.

Israel isn’t in Iraq or Afghanistan because the US doesn’t want them to be there.

it seems kind of far fetched to ask us to believe israel bombed syria over a 20 year old belated reaction to their deep concern for human rights abuses-

well, ill say there is far fetched, and further fetched- and that is as further fetched as it gets

it seems more reasonable to assume that it was a sideways threat to iran by a show of force to its ally syria, than a 20 some year belated concern for some remote victims whose country they just dropped bombs on.

i sure hope israel never takes it upon itself to redress any remote injustices n my past!

asking what the syrians would do if they had nuclear capability is downright silly-

what are you saying?
if syria had nuclear capability it might bully everyone the way israel does?

egypt has received funding for a few years-

israel has been funded FOR 60 YEARS!!!!

and they werent doing squat to help america in the early 50s

as for helping "deomcracies"
why not give billions and billion (300 so far) to turkey?

they actually had their soldiers (100s and 100s) dying in korea to protect real american soldiers lives!

where are israeli troops in iraq? afghanistan?

if they're our heavily funded allies, why arent they sending their troops in our current need?

our current funding puts 23,000 dollars into the pocket of every israeli man woman and baby,
babies dont need 23k! (by including the babies in the demographics is puts the total down)

every single american is currently in debt (according to CNN 23 days ago) 30,000 dollars
(that doesnt include babies) because of our overextended national debt

if we just cut out israeli aid- we'd wipe out our own debt and leave our own children a future they can have hope in-

israeli children get rewarded with 10s of 1000's in cahs packages

iraqi children get rewarded with death and malnourishment and disease (13 years of sanctions ring a bell?)

and american children get left behind with a HEALTH CARE PROGRAM THAT IS CUT TO FUND KILLING IRAQI CHILDREN AND BUYING WEAPONS FOR ISRAELIS TO BOMB THEIR NEIGHBORS WITH

i havent even gotten started on lebanese children and how theyve suffered (and palestinian children?)

yeah, israel left lebanon alright-
and left behind thousands and thousands of mines and cluster bombs to blow up little lebanese fingers
yay for israel!

moral champions and examples of the world!

Joseph

I’ve never thought of military aid to Egypt as sort of a military aid to Israel. Interesting concept and not refutable, although not incontrovertibly accurate either.

Why is Israel’s nearly losing the 1973 War so important? I don't understand why you brought up a 35 year old war in the context of these posts. By the way, did you know that the reason Israel lost so many planes in 1973 was that Russia was sending surface to air missiles to the friendly regimes of Syria and Egypt? Should the US not have re-supplied the aircraft? How would it have looked to the world at the time if Russian weapons outperformed our weapons? What would abandoning Israel have shown to other US patron countries who were wondering whether the US can be counted on in times of crisis?

Regarding Israeli bullying of Lebanon and Syria: In 2000, the Israelis left every inch of Lebanon (according to the UN) and are still being attacked by Nasrallah and friends. Israel hasn’t encroached on Syria in the past thirty years other than to blow up its nuclear bomb factory. Why would they blow up a nuclear weapons plant in Syria? Because that regime had no problem killing 20,000 of their own protestors in the 1980’s in Hama. In the context of Hama, what would the Syrians do to the Jews if they ever won a war? Or if they had a nuclear weapon?

Regarding your fact check and that Israel gets aid for reasons that are not clear. What do you think those reasons are?

I have a few suggestions. At first, US support was because Israel was our ally against the Soviet Union Arabic allies. More recently, it is because Israel is on the front lines of the war against Islamic Terror. They report directly to our military about Iranian fighting tactics and weapons. Another reason they are supported is because the US has decided to go all out at expanding democracies around the world. I’m not arguing that the US is correct, it’s just one of the reasons that Bush supports Israel. As for another reason, perhaps you believe that nefarious Jewish lobbyists are getting the US president to help Israel at all costs, even if it hurts the US? Do you think those nefarious American Jewish lobbyists would hurt the US intentionally in order to help Israel?

Fact check: Israel gets aid from the US for reasons that are not directly clear. Egypt gets aid from the US because it has agreed not to attack Israel. Alan's point does not stand: in reality, US aid to Egypt is part of our aid to Israel in that it takes Israel's most powerful potential enemy out of the game while Israel bullies lightweights like the Palestinians, Syria, and Lebanon to her hearts content.

Israel was spared from losing the 1973 War only by a last minute infusion of military equipment from the US; I have seen stories from US sailors of jet fighters with freshly painted Stars of David taking off of American aircraft carriers to be given to Israel. The US having accepted, for whatever reason, an interest in ensuring Israel's survival, decided that it was necessary to take Egypt out of the game toward that end. That is the only reason we give Egypt any meaningful aid.

Cut and Paste! Cut and Paste! Etcetera, ad infinitum...

Hi Detritus, you appear to possess the moral compass of a child molester. Keep on keepin' on.

Addendum

Everyone knows the US Treasury will open up for the Palestinians the minute they stop targeting civilians and turn off the Mickey Mouse racist drivel.

Joseph is almost correct. From a site called miftah, I found the following. Since 1987...[Israel receives] $1.2 billion in economical aid, and $1.8 billion in military aid. My points still stand. The US supports Israel and Egypt. Only the Israeli aid ever gets attention from the hatemongers.

Fact check: Egypt, a nation of about 80 million people, gets about $2.15 billion per year in aid ($1.3 billion military aid and $815 million economic aid), compared with Israel's $3 billion in just their basic aid programs.

Also, recall that Egypt only began getting aid on this scale from the US in exchange for signing a peace treaty with Israel.

Demitris:

Here’s a quote from you that I’d like to address: “The Zionist fanatics’ aspiration is to use every means possible to create a incontestable “Eretz Yisrael” (Greater Usrael) stretching between the two great rivers: The Nile and the Euphrates.”

Israel gave back the Sinai to make peace with Egypt, gave back Southern Lebanon, gave back Gaza, and tried to give back 95% of the West Bank in the year 2000. They probably would not like to administer 30 million Arabs. Do you think taking over a large swath of the Middle East is a mainstream concept in Israel? If so, please provide proof. Not a quote by some fringe lunatic.

As for the US siding with Israel, don’t forget that the Egyptians receive the same 3 billion dollars a year that the Israelis receive. At least the US stands up against terrorism, which we view as worse than Israelis building apartments on a small percentage of the West Bank. If the Arab world hates the US, they might want to remember that it was the US, not Europe, that led the drive to stop the massacres of Muslims in Bosnia. I’m proud that the US sticks up for the only country in the Middle East that is a democracy, with full rights for women and homosexuals, with religious freedom and university admissions open to all. Can you name an Arab country with those qualities?

You scoff at the concept of anti-Semitism being related to Anti-Zionism. I don’t know what percent of the time the two are linked, but it has got to be high. Israel is not evil enough to warrant the attention it gets from so many “observers” like yourself. Until more people protest Russia’s treatment of Muslims in Chechnya, or China’s treatment of Tibetans, I will think that there is a double standard when judging Israel’s actions. As for the UN, it’s a joke. The goal of the Muslim block is to pressure Israel with UN actions. Darfur is ignored, Chechnya is ignored, Tibet is ignored, Kuwaiti ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is ignored. Do you think there is a small chance that, in the context of these aforementioned examples, that the focus on Israel might have something to do with Anti-Semitism? Or is Israel truly more evil than those examples?

In your answer, spare me the talk about oil. There’s no oil in Israel or the West Bank. The Saudis have oil but they didn’t give a crap about the Kuwaitis and their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the 1990’s. It ain’t the oil—it’s the Jews. An old theme, a standard theme, one that often allows dysfunctional societies to focus on the Jews rather than on their own problems.

Regards

Zionism comes from the bowels of the Old Testament. A book written by self-serving Jews for their own interests.

The Zionist fanatics’ aspiration is to use every means possible to create a incontestable “Eretz Yisrael” (Land of Israel) stretching between the rivers Nile and Euphrates.
(On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates - the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.” Genesis 15:18-21)
To accomplish this, the territorial integrity and, perhaps, the very existence of five nations (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq) has to be compromised. If the world allowed Israel to pursue such a schizophrenic course what would be the consequences? Armageddon?!!!

In a display of chutzpah even more galling than the Balfour Declaration, the first Zionists invented a God who “commanded them” to commit genocide. After declaring that their “God gave them” land which had belonged to other peoples for thousands of years, the spiritual ancestors of today's Zionists embarked upon a campaign of mass murder:
…”In the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God gives you for an inheritance you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has “commanded” (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).
The Jebusites were the people of Jerusalem, and like the other nations that were slated for destruction, they had no quarrel with the Israelites. Nevertheless, there can be no doubt that The People Of The Book were bent on genocide according to the modern definition of the word:
"They should be utterly destroyed and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses . . Utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling..."(Joshua 11:20 . . . First Samuel 15:3).

By the end of the 19th century, using the lessons provided by their religious books, they managed to elevate themselves to positions of economic and political power ( The Rothchilds, Disraeli Prime Minister of England) which enabled them to influence the decisions of the Superpowers that eventually allowed them to reclaim part of the land which they had originally grabbed, claiming that “God had promised it to them”. But that land was already occupied for thousands of years by the Palestinians (descendants of ancient Canaanites and Philistines); and the Palestinians had to be evicted sometimes by the same methods that the ancient Jews used: Genocide and extermination.

Item: Israel has perpetrated many well documented massacres as well as ethnic cleansing operations against Palestinians (http://www.ummah.net/unity/palestine/massacres.htm).

Item: For the past 59 years, Israel has pursued a policy of brutal oppression against a people whose homeland was arbitrarily taken away from them. During the same period, Israeli occupation forces have killed thousands of Palestinians and never hesitated to kill unarmed Palestinian children or to arrest and torture them in order to elicit from them information regarding members of resistance organizations including possibly their parents.

Item: It is documented that a large portion of the US financial aid to Israel is used for the construction of settlements most of which are on illegally occupied territory. Many of the settlement homes are used by American and European Jews as summer vacation or retirement homes.

Item: Whereas Israel owes its existence to a United Nations resolution, it has repeatedly violated the provisions of the U.N. charter and with the concurrence of the United States arrogantly thumbed its nose to subsequent U.N. resolutions regarding its borders, and its persistent violations of the human rights and civil liberties of Palestinians.

Item: The U.S. legislative and executive branches, kowtowing to the powerful Zionist lobby (11 Senators, 26 Congressmen, tens of pro-Zionist organizations, many Zionists in key decision-making positions), have blindly aligned themselves with Israel giving over two hundred billion dollars of US taxpayers' money in economic and military aid to Israel's oppressive regime. US arms were -and are still being- used against Palestinians. (The total cost in lives and financial resources incurred by the United States in its support for Israel to date is immense). This selective, one-sided, US policy has aptly branded the US as an accomplice to Israel's crimes against the Palestinians and is the root cause of many terrorist acts against the United States.
Item: In the absence of any other rational explanation for the blind subservience to Israeli interests, would it be unreasonable for one to assume that some of the aid funds are sent back to the United States and are given to American-Jewish organizations or individuals who, in turn, pass them on as political contributions to both party candidates for office in order to secure their support for the Israeli cause?

Item: There are some people who say that Israel is a friend of the United States and deserves such unquestioned support. The intentional Israeli attack on the USS Liberty in 1967, killing 34 and wounding 172 American servicemen (http://www.ussliberty.com) is indicative of the absurdity of such blind support of Israel. As one of the survivors of the attack stated: “With friends like Israel, the U.S. needs no enemies”

Item: During WWII, in virtually all the Nazi-occupied countries in Europe, the patriotic resistance against the occupiers was encouraged and actively supported by the United States. Many of the freedom-fighters did not hesitate to place their own lives on the line in the cause of freedom from their Nazi oppressor. The similarity with the acts of Palestinians against the Israeli occupation forces is evident and a distinction should be made between freedom-fighters and terrorists.

Item: Many of the past and present Israeli political and military personalities had also been leaders or members of Zionist terrorist organizations such as the “Irgun Z'vai Leumi”, “Stern Gang”, “Haganah”, “Giddy Paglin”, “Palmach” etc. (The assassination of U.N. mediator Swedish Count Folke Bernadotte was an act of one of these organizations). These Zionist organizations “wrote the book” on modern terrorism which, until their appearance, constituted but random and isolated acts by anarchists.

Item: When Ariel Sharon became Prime Minister of Israel, he had adopted the satanic ploy of demanding from Palestinian Chairman Arafat to “rein-in the terrorist groups”. This impossible-to –comply-with demand had allowed Sharon to launch his hard line campaign of assassination and destruction with presumed impunity. Unfortunately, this absurd demand had also been echoed by President Bush. Given the facts that there are almost 3.5 million Palestinians living in Israel the West Bank and the other occupied territories and that every Palestinian family has been brutally victimized by the Israeli occupation forces, how in the name of reason could Yasser Arafat know who the next Palestinian -who had had sufficient reasons to seek revenge and, in his or her desperation, was determined to sacrifice his or her life to achieve it- be reined-in? Furthermore, How could Arafat arrest resistance fighters when the Israeli occupation forces systematically targeted Palestinian police installations and policemen? Needless to say, similar irrational demands are constantly made on the Palestinians by the intransigent Israeli government. Such demands seem to have one purpose: to stonewall any final resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian problem.

Out of the tragedy of the terrorist atrocities of September 11th, renewed hopes had also emerged that a permanent solution would be found to the 59-year old Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Instead of a solution, and in spite of the obvious ability of the U.S. -as the sole Superpower- to impose one, we became witnesses to a severe deterioration of the situation with hostilities from both sides. In light of this, the US foreign policy, blatantly supportive of Israel's aggressive posture, has to be re-evaluated using more pragmatic and objective criteria. For a correct assessment of that situation, one has to view the above historical facts through their proper perspective. By so doing, one will discover one of the real causes of the September 11th attack on the United States. (The other being the unabashed U.S. support of oppressive regimes in Muslim nations.)

Is there a solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? The answer is yes. But the solution has to be fair and just, based on international laws and treating both parties impartially and without prejudice.

In order to bring an end to the wanton killings and to the suffering of millions of people, and since the United States government is the key sponsor and supporter of Israel, the initiative rests with the United States. However, any final agreement has to be endorsed and enforced by the United Nations.

Following are some suggestions for a viable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

A. To begin with, and under pain of U. N. sanctions, an immediate cessation of all hostilities must be IMPOSED on both sides.

B. The city of Jerusalem should be completely demilitarized and declared a neutral “Holy City”
protected by the United Nations.

C. Israel must be compelled to:
1) Declare unequivocally that it has no aspirations to any land other than that whose boundaries were defined in the U.N. Declaration which established it as a state.
2) Withdraw from the occupied territories including all the illegal settlements and the Golan Heights.
3) Accept the creation of an independent Palestinian State.
4) Allow the return of Palestinians who were forced out of their homes under the Israeli ethnic cleansing campaign.
5) Provide just compensation for the homes and lands previously owned by Palestinians and forcibly appropriated by Israel or return such homes and lands to their rightful owners.
6) Accord and guarantee equal human rights and civil liberties to all Palestinians who choose to live within Israel as stipulated by the U.N. resolution which created the state of Israel.
7) Adhere to all U.N. resolutions aimed at establishing peace in the region.
8) Sign the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty and allow inspections of its nuclear facilities.
9) Recognize the authority and jurisdiction of the World Court as the sole arbiter of disputes regarding international law.
10) Provide the World Court with all necessary assistance to prosecute anyone within Israel guilty of crimes against humanity.

D. The Palestinians:
1) Must accept that the existence of the state of Israel is a fact with which they must live.
2) They must refrain from future hostile acts against Israel.

When Israelis and Palestinians have fulfilled their obligations, the Palestinians can redirect their energies into building a peaceful and prosperous nation without animosity for their neighbors. Time can be relied-upon to heal many wounds opened by both sides.

Both sides must exclude the religious fanatics from the peace-making processes.

The Arab Union nations must also recognize Israel as an independent sovereign state.

Unless both sides can “bite the bullet” and sincerely work towards establishing permanent peace, it is obvious that the world can anticipate the open wound of their conflict to become an incurable gangrene that would cause the demise of the afflicted and perhaps the entire humankind.

Here’s a good example of how AIPAC is not the only source of Israeli influence that misled us into the disastrous preemptive invasion of Iraq and continues to stoke our world wide War on Islam:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/opinion/12dowd.html?_r=1&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

December 12, 2007

Op-Ed Columnist
The Dream Is Dead

By MAUREEN DOWD

WASHINGTON

“The man crowned by Tommy Franks as “the dumbest [expletive] guy on the planet” just made the dumbest [expletive] speech on the planet.

Doug Feith, the former Rummy gofer who drove the neocon plan to get us into Iraq, and then dawdled without a plan as Iraq crashed into chaos, was the headliner at a reunion meeting of the wooly-headed hawks Monday night at the American Enterprise Institute.

The room was packed as the former No. 3 at the Pentagon, previewing his upcoming book, “War and Decision,” conceded that the case could be made that “mistakes were made.” His former boss, Paul Wolfowitz, and the former Pentagon adviser Richard Perle sat supportively in the front row.”...

“In “Fiasco,” Tom Ricks wrote that Feith’s Pentagon office was dubbed the “black hole” of policy by generals watching him drop the ball...

Jay Garner, America’s first viceroy in Iraq, deemed him “incredibly dangerous” and said his “electrons aren’t connected.”

Feith’s disdain for diplomacy and his credo that weakness invites aggression were shaped, Ricks reported, by personal history: “Like Wolfowitz, Feith came from a family devastated by the Holocaust. His father lost both parents, three brothers, and four sisters to the Nazis.”...

What’s the answer to bin Laden? According to Feith, it was an attack on an unrelated dictator. He oversaw the Policy Counterterrorism Evaluation Group, whose mission was to amp up links between Saddam and Al Qaeda...

It defies reason, but there are still some who think the chuckleheads who orchestrated the Iraq misadventure have wisdom to impart.

The Pentagon neocons dumped Condi Rice out of the loop. Yet, according to Newsweek’s Mike Isikoff, Condi has now offered Wolfie a job. It wasn’t enough that he trashed Iraq and the World Bank. (He’s still larking around town with Shaha, the sweetheart he gave the sweetheart deal to.)
Condi wants Wolfie to advise her on nuclear proliferation and W.M.D. as part of a State Department panel that has access to highly classified intelligence.

Once you’ve helped distort W.M.D. intelligence to trick the country into war, shouldn’t you be banned for life from ever having another top-level government post concerning W.M.D.?”

Yes

Blessed be the Palestinians

Here is an article that shows what we are up against. It shows how Barack Obama executed his abrupt flip flop on Palestinian support when he began his campaign for a US Senate seat from Illinois:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6619.shtml

How Barack Obama learned to love Israel

Ali Abunimah, The Electronic Intifada, 4 March 2007

...“In 2000, when Obama unsuccessfully ran for Congress I heard him speak at a campaign fundraiser hosted by a University of Chicago professor. On that occasion and others Obama was forthright in his criticism of US policy and his call for an even-handed approach to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.”…

…“But Obama's gradual shift into the AIPAC camp had begun as early as 2002 as he planned his move from small time Illinois politics to the national scene. In 2003, Forward reported on how he had "been courting the pro-Israel constituency." He co-sponsored an amendment to the Illinois Pension Code allowing the state of Illinois to lend money to the Israeli government. Among his early backers was Penny Pritzker -- now his national campaign finance chair -- scion of the liberal but staunchly Zionist family that owns the Hyatt hotel chain. (The Hyatt Regency hotel on Mount Scopus was built on land forcibly expropriated from Palestinian owners after Israel occupied East Jerusalem in 1967). He has also appointed several prominent pro-Israel advisors.”…

…“If disappointing, given his historically close relations to Palestinian-Americans, Obama's about-face is not surprising. He is merely doing what he thinks is necessary to get elected and he will continue doing it as long as it keeps him in power.”…

“Only if enough people know what Obama and his competitors stand for, and organize to compel them to pay attention to their concerns can there be any hope of altering the disastrous course of US policy in the Middle East. It is at best a very long-term project that cannot substitute for support for the growing campaign of boycott, divestment and sanctions needed to hold Israel accountable for its escalating violence and solidifying apartheid.”

It is clear to me that our only hope for an honest government is campaign finance reform with total taxpayer financing of political campaigns. All lobbying must be totally banned.

Saudi Arabia condemns planned settlement building in East Jerusalem

Tuesday December 11, 2007 16:21 by Brian Kenny - IMEMC News

...“The proposed construction, on a settlement which was originally built in the late 1990's amidst international outcry, has also drawn heavy criticism from the United States and the European Union. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said on Friday that the building plan does not help the peace process. "I've made clear that we're in a time when the goal is to build maximum confidence between the parties, and this doesn't help to build confidence" she added.”...

todays news-

Palestinian medical sources reported on Tuesday that six Palestinians have been killed and 19 others wounded, during an Israeli army ground offensive on southern Gaza Strip today.

http://www.imemc.org/article/51965
thats just today

Both the United States and Israel need to understand terrorism can not be defeated with bigger and better military equipment and tactics we must solve the underlying issues. For the Israelis they will have to live with terrorism forever if they don't take off the Chinese finger cuffs and give the Palestinians a real independant country. And the US needs to stop giving unconditional support to Israel as long as they continue along their current course. It’s simple - give the Palestinian people their DIGNITY back!

Here is a fascinating link. I find it very interesting indeed. When are we going to figure out how to give the American people as much pull with the Congress as AIPAC has?

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/11302007/transcript2.html

Here is the part I like best:

BILL MOYERS: But in this country the right wing, the radicals, if you will, you call them radicals, they are radicals. They're organized. They have the money. They have this alliance with the Republican Party. And AIPAC and others make it impossible for Democrats to have the kind of conversation that you're having here. I mean, you don't hear this debate in the Democratic debates, do you?

M.J. ROSENBERG: You don't. And that's-- it's so amazing that no one asks the candidates about Israel and Palestine in debates, ever.

BILL MOYERS: Why?

M.J. ROSENBERG: I think the reason they don't ask is that they know what the candidates are going to say is, "I love Israel. I stand with Israel. Israel is great." End of the discussion.

BILL MOYERS: Why?

M.J. ROSENBERG: Because they are intimidated...

BILL MOYERS: By?

M.J. ROSENBERG: By the lobby which basically does not want a debate on this issue. But, you know, I don't blame the lobby. I blame the politicians. They're not going to lose their seats in Congress. They're not going to lose the presidency because they endorsed a two-state solution. The-- it is not losing that they're afraid of. They're afraid of getting any static from a couple of right wing donors...

BILL MOYERS: --I mean, you have seen the candidates for Congress lose because of opposition from supporters of Israel.

M.J. ROSENBERG: You know what? I think that the only people say that candidates for Congress have lost because of that opposition is, one, the lobby itself to tout its own power. And those candidates who lost for other reasons and want someone to blame. No, I can go over those case by case--

BILL MOYERS: Yeah, but-- but in your newsletter you keep talking about the power of the lobby to intimidate the discussion among Democrats in particular...

BILL MOYERS: --talk about Barney Frank, who's a good liberal Democrat but never discusses this. You talk about Nancy Pelosi writes a letter to Bush before the Annapolis conference and says the only solution can be one that deals primarily with what Palestinians are doing and has no reciprocity from Israel.

M.J. ROSENBERG: Oh, absolutely. The-- they have a real chilling effect on debate...

BILL MOYERS: More so than CUFI, don't they?

M.J. ROSENBERG: Oh, much more. CUFI doesn't really-- I don't see them as really counting on this issue. No, they have a much more-- I go up to the Hill all the time, talk to members of Congress. And what they always are say is, "I'm with you 100 percent. I'm for the two-state solution. I know it's the best thing for America and it's the best thing for Israel. But you really don't want me to go out and say that in public." So they say, like, in my heart I agree with you. But that's not good enough.

RON SIDER: I think that MJ's basically right on that. And I'm sorry about that. I wish they did. I wish they had the political courage to-- in fact, say what they think. Because I mean, it's really momentous in terms of the U.S. and the history of the world and our foreign policy. Because 1.3 billion Muslims in the world tend to judge the U.S. and see it through the lens of Israel-Palestine. And all those Muslims perceive the U.S. as very one-sided. If we would solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem, that would remove one major problem in the huge dangerous relationship between the U.S. with its large Christian majority and the Muslim world.

M.J. ROSENBERG: And, you know, on top of it, you have in the Jewish community some 70 percent of our community supports the two-state solution, supports the peace process, supports what Bush tried to do this week in Annapolis. But under our current system, it isn't majorities that matter, it's special interest groups based in Washington. It's a problem with our system right now and how it works.

A newspaper is obviously the expression of the owner's opinion, and the owner of the Washington Post does not believe that the United States should act as an even broker in its dealings between Israel and the Palestinian, but rather as Israel's advocate. However, many of us disagree with this policy and believe we have a right to criticize the Post's editorial policy without being labeled anti-semites.

My team is better than your team.

Why is this article still on the columns and blogs front page?

Bill, you have a degree of certainty to your beliefs that is almost invariably the result of not having thought objectively about them.

But thanks anyway.

I think as long as we don't start stealing their land we'll be OK. You guys ought to try it some time, it works much better than squatting in bunkers pretending that one day the people you threw off their land are going to give up trying to get it back.
The question I have to ask you is if this has been your policy for fifty years, and the most you have accomplished is building fortified bunkers in your fortified cities, don't you think you better try something else? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time is the definition of stupidity.

US support of Israel is both right and wise. Right, because Israel is a legitimate democracy, a great contributer to the world and strongly allied with the US. It is wise because it will be an Israeli bomb that destroys Iran's nuclear material - hopefully before it gets into the hands of Hezbollah, Iran's proxy.

EVEN IF this Iranian regime has no plans, they are a nation ruled by an Islamic fundamentalist - who translated the writings of Qutb into Persian - who will be succeeded by other Islamic fundamentalists, also arm in arm with Hezbollah and Hamas.

That the posters here are so rabidly reacting to people describing the need to preserve community in the face of ongoing terrorist threats is heartless and mad.

Palestinians are almost entirely to blame for their plight. Arafat was given the Nobel Prize for Peace yet he is the one person who most significantly set the Arab world on a path away from peace.

Does no one have any such choice words for Hamas? Is it only Jews who can do no right in the views of you people? Israel is the beautiful flower that bloomed from the mixture of a horrific persecution and a determined people. Honor is due. Your rants are misplaced.

It was a serious mistake to cede Gaza.

The last time I checked, no one in Northern Virginia seems to think that my house belongs to them. I'm not too worried about bombs, rockets and IEDs where I live. Sorry you have to be concerned about that type of thing but your world is not mine.

. . . now if you want to talk about the terrorism of rampant real estate speculation, the fact that the State of Virginia is practicing tax terrorism (by not returning a fair share of NVA's tax revenue to our area), the fact that the federal government is practicing wholesale terrorism on the US population by gutting the Constitution and by not controlling the borders or the fact that our politicians are practicing political terrorism by their nonstop campaigns - well then . . . let's talk.

Canadien Anonyme:

When your Palestinian brothers danced in the streets on 9/11, they lost any sympathy I might have ever had for them. If you have so much compassion, import every damn one of them and we can all live happily after.

Anonymous American:

Anonymous Canadian:

What’s Arab propaganda doing in a “Magazine for country living... Farming, gardening, forestry and more!” hey? BTW, Great use of the English language! Your name isn't Asan Akbar, is it, hey?

December 8, 2007 1:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
---------------------------------------------------
Mon nom, c'est pas de tes crisses d'affaires,mais c'est pas celui que tu as suggeré, gros tata. Mes origines non plus. Back to the article,did you really read it?
http://www.countrymagazines.com/land%20grab.html

It's certainly not propaganda, it's about solidarity (&community) between farmers, the sort of community being discussed at times in this article here. I am proud that some canadian farmers have enough compassion to want to let the world know about the land grab, no propaganda there, just true compassion for other farmers who see their crops, orchards, 300 year old ancestral olive trees razed down by an IDF constantly willing to provoke in order to incite attacks against them. This isn't politics, propaganda or any evil thing against Israel: this is a just account of what is going on, from a magazine that
is concerned with the plight of farmers anywhere on this planet. But know, that theirs is not terrorism:when all they have left is their lives, they have no choice but to use their lives against you, just as any other human would do so:step back for peace, no one is going anywhere, the solution will come when you look at your Palestinian brothers and say: you belong here as well and the Palestinians look at you and say you belong here too. Meanwhile, don't be afraid to see both sides
this is how I thought Americans were, objective, or...are you more something else than American...

Yes, "Anon," I know the sentiment: when I strongly disagree with someone, it makes me more inclined to think that his girlfriend is ugly.

Joseph, I don't think anyone here - be they christian, jew, or muslim - wants to hear about the removal of your foreskin. Frankly, I'm sure many here find it highly dubious that you have anything to remove foreskin from.

I agree, "Another Mark" - "Seabrook" is stupid.

"Anonymous American" (odd that someone using that moniker would ask someone else for his name and outfit, isn't it?), actually I had my foreskin surgically removed, since you seem to think that sort of thing is relevant.

There might be something to learn in the comments to these articles for you Israel-philes, if only you you have the sense to discover it. But my initial impression is that you're too steeped in your own biases to figure it out.

Continue talking amongst yourselves.

I've seen Joseph's posts before. He's had his kafia surgically implanted - another Adam Gadahn.

@Joseph

Read Seabrook stupid.

It took exactly 31 minutes, anonymous American.

Actually, "Another Mark," the Jews were most especially "not perfect" on the first occasion in which they ethnically cleansed the Levant, where they were instructed by their peace-loving god to kill all of the men in the outlying cities, but in the cities of central Israel to "save alive nothing that breatheth." Deuteronomy book 20.

I'll stop "Jew-bashing" once people stop raising any and every Muslim transgression, whether it was committed in the Sudan or in Malaysia, and whether it was committed last week or 1400 years ago, as though it somehow makes acceptable the transgressions of the modern State of Israel. Every religion has its warts, and I would hope no one would want to be held accountable for all the wicked deeds of his co-religionists; so why would anyone think it okay to hold any Muslim accountable for the wicked deeds of his co-religionists? And isn't that what some of you have been suggesting?

Excellent recent comments – but, only to the Western mind. How long do you think it will be before the same tub-thumping idiots will be back with the same tub-thumping Jew-bashing?

Seabrook:

Well said.

The Jews are certainly not perfect especially since they quit cowering in ghettos and they stopped being led to the gas chambers. But this insane Muslim hatred of all things non-Muslim most especially the Jews has got to stop. There will be no peace anywhere in the world much less Israel until the lunatic Muslims bring themselves into the 21st century.

In the early 1920's, modern Turkey expelled hundreds of thousands of ethnic Greeks from their ancient communities but there are no Greek refugee camps in the Balkans. In 1945 the Czech's expelled their entire ethnic German population without compensation but there are no German refugees in Central Europe. In 1945 the Russians seized Polish territory but there are no displaced Poles living on UN handouts for 62 years. The Poles in return, and the Russians as well, seized all of the easternmost part of historic Germany, but no one has paid the Germans for their lost properties and there are no refugee camps or displaced Germans living on the UN dole. Of course there is the 1940 seizure of southern Finland by the Soviets, not to mention California, et al, stolen from the Mexicans. There were land seizures on the Pacific Coast of South America from some little known wars there as well. Why then are the Palestinian's the only war loser's entitled to reclaim ALL of their lands lost in the wars they started in 1948 and 196, Religion is the reason. Islamic doctrine holds that lands once Muslim MUST be Muslim for eternity, and Spain better be careful. The second reason is that the prevailing party were Jews, an unforgiveable insult to the historic ant-Jewish biases prevalent in much of the world. So unlike the 800,000 Jews expelled from North Africa and the Middle East (without compensation), the Palestinian refugees, both those who left voluntarily and those who left because of threats, must be forever kept as refugees to be the basis of an undying thirst for revenge by the defeated Muslim world and its armies. I find incredible the ignorance of history that permeates this site. Why no mention of the failure to establish a Palestinian state before 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza. Why no mention of Arab terror between 1948 and 1967---the PLO was formally created in 1963. Do any of the posters know anything about the causes of the 1967 war? Were they even born when Abba Eban offered a return of conquered lands in a speach at the UN I watched 0n TV in 1967 in return for peace and normalization of relations. Have they ever heard of the historic reply--the 3 no's of Khartoum--no peace, no recognition, no normalization. Are they aware of the prohibition by Jordan of any Jew living in or visiting the old part of Jerusalem before 1967---not even to be allowed to pray at Judism's holiest site.We can agree that holding on to Gaza and most of the West Bank is not practical even if justified by historic comparison's, but the Israeli's have a tiger by the tail. It's an unpleasant experience but it's better than being devoured by the tiger if it is let go---note Gaza.

Its funny how all the jew-haters have to pull out a parade of conspiracy theories, dubious publications, and blood libels to illustrate the malevolence of the jew, er, I mean, "Israel." Meanwhile, anyone can open up any newspaper on any given day and see numerous examples of insane muslims blowing up civilians, enslaving women, committing genocide in Sudan, etc. Let me tell you how convinced I am that the Palestinian leadership has always been perfectly reasonable and everything is Israel's fault.

There is no "good" and "bad" side here, but sadly idiots like yourselves will always prevent any rational discourse on the subject of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Way to take a human tragedy and frame it in terms of a college football rivalry.

Anonymous Canadian:

What’s Arab propaganda doing in a “Magazine for country living... Farming, gardening, forestry and more!” hey? BTW, Great use of the English language! Your name isn't Asan Akbar, is it, hey?

In fact, to get back on topic, Americans do get terrorism, and every time the topic turns from Muslim terrorism to Jew-bashing as seen above, the discussion will be brought back into focus; for, there are ample, well-documented incidents beginning with the Prophet himself through centuries of Arab expansionist aggression aka colonialism to 9/11 to present day Sudan.

Rather that consider a few crazed Jews, we will consider an entire mob of Islamic psychos like Idi Amin, Saddam Hussain, Ayatollah Khomeini, Mullah Omar, Osama bin Ladin, Ayman Zawhiri and the one who started it all, the one who ordered the massacre of 900 Bani Quraiza Jews, Muhammad himself.

Ibn Ishaq describes the killing of the Banu Qurayza men as follows:

“ Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, 'Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!' This went on until the apostle made an end of them. Huyayy was brought out wearing a flowered robe in which he had made holes about the size of the finger-tips in every part so that it should not be taken from him as spoil, with his hands bound to his neck by a rope. When he saw the apostle he said, 'By God, I do not blame myself for opposing you, but he who forsakes God will be forsaken.' Then he went to the men and said, 'God's command is right. A book and a decree, and massacre have been written against the Sons of Israel.' Then he sat down and his head was struck off."

Book 38, Number 4390:
Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:

I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.

Anonymous American, what you describe in the above post was an isolated incident, if it wasn't you would have given more recent examples. If you want to read about where the bad soldiers are government for that matter, please refer to this apolitical article a year older than your article but an ongoing and very real situation:

http://www.countrymagazines.com/land%20grab.html

With a handle like "Nemesis" why wouldn't I believe him?

To anonymous American Muslim servicemember: Are you GI Joe or Jihad Joe just a fraud? How about your name and outfit?

Uncle Sam's Jihadists

What's the U.S. military doing about radical Muslim soldiers? Not enough.

By Deanne Stillman

Posted Thursday, March 27, 2003, at 2:39 PM ET

The most disturbing story of the war so far is the fragging at Camp Pennsylvania in Kuwait. According to news reports, on March 23, Sgt. Asan Akbar rolled a grenade into each of three tents of sleeping officers and senior NCOs of the 101st Airborne Division. Then he allegedly shot the soldiers with an automatic weapon as they fled from their tents. Two of them, a major and a captain, died, and 14 others were injured.

The episode is unsettling for a number of reasons, most of all because it exposes a fact about our military that commanders have tried their best to ignore: the presence of radical, anti-American Muslims in the ranks. Akbar, a convert to Islam, reportedly said when he was captured: "You guys are coming into our countries and you're going to rape our women and kill our children." It's increasingly clear that there is a small group of soldiers for whom anti-American fatwas issued in mosques around the world supercede the oath of loyalty they took to their nation.

http://www.slate.com/id/2080770/

As to "Another Mark's" claim that "Nemesis'" account was a blood libel, we can look to another year, another war, to see the sorts of things Israel has done:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/me_peace/me_peace.htm

Clearly, "Nemesis'" account is not as unbelievable as it should be; Israel has murdered innocents. But no worries; some of the murderers of 49 innocent Israeli Arabs were jailed for as long as three years.

Note that there is some question as to whether the Washington Post would run an article such as this one (from 1999) today.

Gosh, who'd have thunk so many people would come out to defend spitting on a crucifix!

I was simply countering the dishonest or misguided suggestion from another commentator that Christians in the West Bank only had to worry about their Muslim neighbors. I was not comparing anything to beheading, to criminal sentences given for naming a teddy bear, to raping a child. (Sorry, couldn't understand the point of the drag queen comment - I wasn't aware that there WAS anything that doesn't also happen in San Francisco.)

I think it is important, however, in the name of truth, to throw some cold water on the Jewish-Christian "love fest" over Israel: fundamentalist Christians support Israel because they think it is a precondition of the return of Jesus, and that when he returns Jews will have the choice of accepting him as the messiah or eternal damnation; fundamentalist Jews regard Christians not merely as idolators, but as enticers to idolatry, the proper treatment of whom is given in Deuteronomy 13:9. There ain't no love here.

If anything, the responses here prove how stupid people really are.

What is terrorism? Sailing to a new land and threatening to raze the place to the ground unless they accept Jesus as God and Savior or whatever.

What is terrorism? Kidnapping people from one continent, importing them to another in order to throw them into forced labor.

What is terrorism? Government-ignored (and thus sponsored and sanctioned) racism in the form of a REAL terrorist group; the Ku Klux Klan.

What is NOT terrorism? Fighting against an occupier whose very premise for existence is based on the religious notions of its supporters.

Sorry, but no Zionist Jew has the right to tell anyone, especially a Muslim (or rather, an American Muslim servicemember. Such as MYSELF) what the hell terrorism is.

And they DAMN SURE don't have the right to tell me, servicemember-to-servicemember, how to defeat terrorism, when they've needed our help to do so since 1949. Lol. You got a secret on how to beat an enemy, but ain't made a stitch of progress in 68 years.

We would not be at war had the Europeans not established Israel as a state in the first place. Period. This is OUR fault for financing an illegitimate state, and now you're wondering why we're paying the fare on it? I love my country to death, despite the +200yrs worth of atrocities commited to my people (+400 if you count pre-Colonial America), but I fear for its future if the support for an illegit Israeli state is a priority.

Also, before any fool calls me an "Anti-Semite", give me a break.

I recognize the people of Israel as a group of people who have ALWAYS PEACEFULLY coexisted on land which so happened to have been inhabited by Muslims longer. I DON'T recognize the people of Israel as the people of the "state" of Israel.

Israel is the source of America's foreign-relation problems. Period.

If anything, the responses here prove how stupid people really are.

What is terrorism? Sailing to a new land and threatening to raze the place to the ground unless they accept Jesus as God and Savior or whatever.

What is terrorism? Kidnapping people from one continent, importing them to another in order to throw them into forced labor.

What is terrorism? Government-ignored (and thus sponsored and sanctioned) racism in the form of a REAL terrorist group; the Ku Klux Klan.

What is NOT terrorism? Fighting against an occupier whose very premise for existence is based on the religious notions of its supporters.

Sorry, but no Zionist Jew has the right to tell anyone, especially a Muslim (or rather, an American Muslim servicemember. Such as MYSELF) what the hell terrorism is.

We would not be at war had the Europeans not established Israel as a state in the first place. Period. This is OUR fault for financing an illegitimate state, and now you're wondering why we're paying the fare on it? I love my country to death, despite the +200yrs worth of atrocities commited to my people (+400 if you count pre-Colonial America), but I fear for its future if the support for an illegit Israeli state is a priority.

Also, before any fool calls me an "Anti-Semite", give me a break.

I recognize the people of Israel as a group of people who have ALWAYS PEACEFULLY coexisted on land which so happened to have been inhabited by Muslims longer. I DON'T recognize the people of Israel as the people of the "state" of Israel.

Israel is the source of America's foreign-relation problems. Period.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/70811

Lupolianski Deplores Spitting Incident
October 22, '04

(IsraelNN.com) The mayor of Jerusalem, Uri Lupolianski, met yesterday with the Armenian Orthodox Patriarch, Turkom Manuagian and the chairman of Archbishops in Jerusalem, Nora Manuagian.

The mayor condemned a recent incident in which an Orthodox resident of the capital spat at clerics, explaining he was taught to spit at Catholic priests and leaders of other faiths. Lupolianski condemned the young man’s actions which he called “despicable acts”.

“On behalf of myself and all the people of Jerusalem I apologize for the heinous act which I strongly condemn. As a representative of Jerusalem I’m ashamed and embarrassed by this act,” said the mayor.

Mr. Lupolianski added, “The spitting wasn’t just meant for you and the community you represent, it was a spit in the face of all the people of Jerusalem. Jerusalem, just like its name, is a city of peace that symbolizes peace and brotherhood between religions and it’s unfortunate that the wild thorns hurt us all. In the coming days I’ll appoint a special advisor for Christian Affairs, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, who will outline a broad and comprehensive plan to improve the relationships between religions and to restore Jerusalem’s status as a city of peace.”

The mayor also announced that he had talks regarding this issue with rabbi’s, which will condemn the incidents and prepare an educational plan for synagogues and community centers.

Joseph:

These Jews are not doing anything that does not happen in San Francisco. Only the drag queens go inside the churches.

Or the french boy that was raped in dubai by a carload of arabs, on of whom was infected with AIDS. the dubai authorities handled the matter in typical fashion.

Hey, Joseph. What's your spin on the teddy bear in Sudan?

@Joseph

You compare this to beheadings? You're nuts. Try taking a cross to Saudi Arabia.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=487412&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=487412

"Both were questioned by police and the yeshiva student will be brought to trial. The Jerusalem District Court has meanwhile banned the student from approaching the Old City for 75 days."

"Jerusalem municipal officials said they are aware of the problem but it has to be dealt with by the police. Shmuel Ben-Ruby, the police spokesman, said they had only two complaints from Christians in the past two years. He said that, in both cases, the culprits were caught and punished."

Something else Christians apparently have to worry about in Israel/Palestine:

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=486934&contrassID=1

This is what happens to Christians at the hands of Muslims. And she's the lucky one, her other 3 friends were beheaded.

http://www.persecutionblog.com/2006/07/indonesia_sole_.html

Thanks TB. Muslims won't even admit that jihad means jihad and a teacher in New York got fired for trying to pass off intifada as some kind of harmless concept. They live in some kind of parallel universe. It gets really annoying when they think that real people are that stupid.

Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them." Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah [taqiyyah] is allowed until the Day of Resurrection."

Taqiyyah (deceit) by “softening the hearts” in an attempt to weaken the enemy’s defenses is permissible.

The only thing "Palestinian" Christians have to fear in the "West Bank" is murderous Muslim mobs like the one from the village of Deir Jarir that attacked the neighboring Christian village of Taiba on September 3, 2005. The details of this incident are well known unlike the blood libel above.

Nemesis, thank you for sharing that.

What can I do to help you?

Mark: When did you learn to use the language incorrectly?

Do you offer any support for your "opinion" or it is just another "opinion"?

Nemesis

Pure taqiyya.

The following was narrated to me by a Palestinian.

I am a Palestinian Christian of the Eastern Orthodox faith. I was born in 1958 on a farming village in what was defined as the West Bank. My father worked hard tending to an olive-tree orchard and a few acres of cereal crops. He had a wife and four small children to support. My father was a peaceful apolitical man who would never hurt even a fly.
In 1969, when I was 11-years old, I was returning from school with my siblings and I saw a group of armed Israeli soldiers with a bulldozer poised to demolish our home. I led my siblings to a spot behind a wall and watched. My Mother was standing at the door wailing and my father, with his arm around her, was trying to console her while he was shouting to the soldiers begging them not to destroy our home which had stood there for five generations.

Just as one Israeli was advancing toward my parents, another Israeli soldier aimed his machine-gun at my parents and killed them both. with only a casual glance at the murderer, and without removing the dead bodies, the Israeli in charge ordered the bulldozer operator to proceed with the demolition. Some of the soldiers -including the murderer- were laughing while the bulldozer's tracks ran over the bodies of my parents which were mixed with the debris.

Fearing for our lives, my siblings and I ran to the house of my grandparents. We found them also crying and when, in tears, I told them what we had just witnessed my grandmother fainted. My grandfather was also crying while he tried to revive my grandmother. "They did the same thing to several other houses," he said. At that moment, I took a silent oath in my parents' memory that I would avenge their murder. I repeated the oath with my siblings a year later when we learned that our olive-tree orchard was leveled to clear the grounds for a Jewish settlement.

As the years passed, we became resistance fighters and our enemy is the Zionist occupation government and its armed instruments. The continuing murders and destruction in which the Israelis engaged with abandon was a constant motivating factor that urged us not to repress our rage but to continue until our last breaths.

I ask you: Are we entitled to met retributive justice where we had no other recourse to obtain justice?

The Israeli propaganda machine has succeeded in convincing the United States government to brand our retributive acts as terrorism. But who are the terrorists, Those who, so brutally and inhumanly, murdered our parents and destroyed our property or us?

Palestinians should consider settling the issue by rapid transit to the East Bank - the historic Palestinian state.

Here's a lovely little map showing all of the
illegal Israeli settlements on the West Bank- dated 2002 - something the venerable WashPo would probably shy away from...I wonder why!? Anybody can see it's literally a Swiss-cheese Bantustan approach to "settling the issue". Cheers!

http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.pdf

Too many Daily Kos rejects with their kafias wound too tight. Who else would consider such drivel: Hate Israel, hate America, hate Bush ...
Breath through your noses occasionally.

Very true Michael. It should also be noted that Europeans are not really natives to Europe; they actually migrated to Europe from Africa and displaced the continent's indigenous peace-loving Neanderthal inhabitants. They also weren't even called "Europeans" then - the term "European" was created to justify the genocidal ways of these homo-sapienist terrorists.

Good to come on this board and see that some Neaderthals have survived the massacres.

Israel was a bad idea. We're paying for the sins of our fathers. But the worst part is that we continue to make the same mistake over and over again (Iraq) and never seem to learn from our past.

I think it does not matter which side is committing terrorism. Israel's sovereignty is not at issue. Both sides are doing terrorism. The issue is whether the US should spend so much money on preventing terror, or rather spend money to build our communities up to be able to survive when terror does come to our shores, as it surely will. Prevention is very expensive and ineffective. I think the article is a good reference to how a community survives intact. With the Iraq war draining the treasury and our coming recession, we need those monies here for our own people to live.

Native Americans have no intention of attacking non-native americans in the US. They tried that already in the past and it didn't work at all. Then a bunch of them got smart and figured out how to work the system. They're repossessing, and buying land back from gambling proceeds; as well as using litigation to get their's back.

BTW, the Jews aren't native to the lands of Israel. Abraham came from the Mesopotamia area. The Jews were supposedly promised a homeland from God through Moses. They were also supposed to commit genocide to remove ALL the indigenous peoples from the area of Palestine/Israel. Either from compassion, laziness, or bad judgement they left many and tried to absorb others.

I still think Israel needs a cohesive group of charismatic Muslim and Jewish leaders to put together a secular government that would enable everyone, no matter what their ethnic or religious background, to live in relative harmony within their nation.

Israel is nothing but another South Afrcia.Palestinians,being moslems or Christians, are treated like subhumans. Their houses are being demolished,their children are being jailed or killed on daily basis,their little farms are being bulldozed.Any Jew from all over the world is entitled for Israeli citizenship upon his arrival at Ben Gorion Airport, while the orginal land owners are not permitted even to visit the houses they were kicked from in Israel.The whole world should be ashamed of tolerating such an apartheid regime to cintinue in the 21st century. Israel as a pure Jewish state should not be permitted to continue anymore. Israel does have the right to exist but within its legal borders under UN resolution 181 and as a secular state for all its citizens regardless of their religion.Palestinian refugees must be given the right to return to their homes and belongings in Israel,the new secular state of Israel.

What is terrorism? Was the three weeks of non stop bombing on Bagdad, creatively called 'shock and awe' not terrorism ? And the wanton destruction of Lebanon during the summer of 2006, was that not terrorism ? Why is it that Israelis and Americans still don't get it, that no matter how many houses you bomb, no matter how much you deprive a people of basic needs such as sleep (sonic booms still resounding over Gaza:I hear that it goes through your spine like an electric charge, poor little palestinian children do you really think that they will want to live peacefully remembering their razed down houses, the nightly terrorizing sonic booms the lack of water, no food, no access to medical care with Israeli roadblocks, know that you can not shock and awe a people into submission or into giving up what is legitimately theirs. Can accept that no people, no more than the American or Israeli people would let this happen either. Is your kind of terrorism only an excuse for cruelty then?

Does this article have a point?

I was expecting a run-of-the-mill America is the root of all evil article, and I guess that's what this is trying to be from the title. What's the argument though? That America should be like Israel and learn how to defeat terrorism by learning to embrace its neighbors and maintain communities?

I am surprised that There are many people who feel the same about the mid east. Specifically Israel and the Palistinians. Israel takes their land, carves up the west bank and wonders why the Palistinians are radicalized ? The zionist- settler mentality controls Israel. They are every bit as radical as any arab. Have you ever seen a map of the west bank. You would think it was a picture of someone with the measles. Not only is it pockmarked with settlements but criss crossed with roads that only the settlers can use. The west bank cannot have an economy nor social discourse. They mention leaving gaza what were they doing there in the first place. If you read the history of the Israel's formation and later its desire to expand. It becomes clear Israel never intended to stay within its borders.That is the heart of the problem. The U.S. is backing a nation guilty of ethnic cleansing and Apartheid sad really

When America is hit with bombs from the sky, it will be our own fault.

Thanks to the corrupt imperialist politicians of the USA, the people (troops, civilians...etc) have to pay the price for their capitalistic globalist greedy ways.

9-11 was "blow back" and there is more to come.

We have the recent scumbage President Bush, his family and administration for that.

Keep in mind, Saudi Arabians "attacked" the Twin Towers and the Bush family are VERY good friends with the Saudis and the Bin Laden family, and has also had many years of business dealings with them.

Much can be written about the lack of the typical American's ideas or knowledge of terrorism, but that is because most of us, do not want to believe we live in a country that is the most violent, cruel terrorist on the face of the earth.

The Founding Fathers of America, were FAR from perfect, but they had a vision.

Secular, equal rights, education, freedom, fulfillment; happiness for a human, which would extend to all other humans....in Secular Humanism.

Too bad, I most likely will not see the world get any better...just worse.

Corey Mondello
cpmondello@yahoo.com
www.CoreyMondello.com
12-7-07

To all Jew-haters here I have simple words, very simple words: ISRAEL was there before islamics, before christianity...given to the JEWS by God and IT will be there forever for that's God will, God desire, God wish, God means, Thats what God wants, not what you or I want. So, stop judging Israel. It is sinful. Israel is sacred and will always be. And, we, the others, including muslims and christians must accept that, and Peace will prevail. Israel is the land of the Jews, for the Jews and to the Jews. Which is what we will all be in the end: Jewish!

To all Jew-haters here I have simple words, very simple words: ISRAEL was there before islamics, before christianity...given to the JEWS by God and IT will be there forever for that's God will, God desire, God wish, God means, Thats what God wants, not what you or I want. So, stop judging Israel. It is sinful. Israel is sacred and will always be. And, we, the others, including muslims and christians must accept that, and Peace will prevail. Israel is the land of the Jews, for the Jews and to the Jews. Which is what we will all be in the end: Jewish!

RE: Video

At least the reporter got out alive. Contrast:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac3/ContentServer?pagename=article&articleid=A38351-2001Sep15&node=nation/specials/attacked/archive

"These measures were not against the freedom of the press but in order to ensure our national security and our national interest," said Yasser Abed Rabbo, the Palestinian information minister. "We will not permit a few kids here or there to smear the real face of the Palestinians. This is a real insult to our people and our nation."

Please check out this video of what appear to be some very nasty ultra-orthodox settlers loitering on somebody else's property (presumably an absentee arab owner)- and threatening a british reporter who´s caught them red-handed. These low-lives also manage to deliver a "merry christmas" message to all christendom...in vino veritas!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c-1nnTrrb0&eurl=

Truesdell:

Most of those posting here couldn't even find the U.S. on a map much less Ethiopia, Sinai or Sderot. It’s clear then why they don’t understand that slandering Jews is anti-Semitism. The “racist apartheid jewish theocracy” crowd is particularly amusing since all 22 members of the Arab League and almost all of the 57 members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference are racist, apartheid, muslim theocracies.

One would think from reading all the anti-Israel sniping here that Sderot is an "occupying" West Bank settlement. In fact it is within Israel's pre-1967 borders and populated mostly by Black Jews originally from Ethiopia and other working class people.

But then again Israelis experienced terrorism from the Palestinian fedayeen for years before the "occupation" - which was the outcome of a defensive war imposed on Israel after the Arabs sent the UN peacekeeping observers in Sinai packing, blockaded the Straits of Tiran and moved its armies to Israel's borders.

Welcome to apartheid israel, wher jewish only roads are all over palestinian stolen - conifiscated lands. Not to mention the israeli colonies such as a colony of 100 jews living among 200,000 palestinains in Hebron, where jews chase palestinains in ht streets and if any palestinain is courageous enough to stand up to tyrany he is shot on the spot by the israeli terrorist soldiers.

After reading this article, I am thoroughly convinced that the smartest anti-terrorism strategy is to put a short tight leash on our Israeli allies. A certain small dog needs to be curbed because it's causing nothing but trouble for it's masters. Israel just isn't worth all the drama it causes. I sincerely hope the next president realizes it is time to be cruel to be kind to an ally of ours that is a little too aggressive in trying to manipulate and control American opinion. One surefire way we never 'get' Muslim terrorism in the USA... cut our losses with Israel, leave them to fend for themselves, and never look back. That's the fire the Israeli government is playing with, and they're gonna get burned badly if they don't smarten up.

I have a dream. I wish those Israeli girls could exchange those IDF uniforms for bikinis and play on the beach with Egyptians, Jordanians, Palestinians and Lebanese. If you cannot visualize this scene, then you don't have peace in your heart.

So the Israelis know the secret to defeating terrorism, huh? Funny, as they have little to show for knowing such an awesome secret. Who knows... maybe the Israeli government discovered the secret while spying on the American government. Nah, the American government obviously doesn't have a clue how to defeat terrorism either.
It's tough to be pro-Israel when articles like this show that they are happy to manipulate the war on terror to further their own agendas.

Just a couple/few observations upon reading through these posts:

1) It seems like a lot of people here need to be more careful about making a distinction between antisemitism and criticisms of Israeli policy. Criticizing Israeli policy, past or present, is not the same as antisemitism. Those of you who play that card so quickly do yourselves no favors.

2) Why are there so few people who can admit that there plenty of blame to go around? Both the Palestinians and the Israelis (some Palestinians and some Israelis) have behaved immorally, unjustly, reprehensibly. Neither side has cornered the market on virtue or evil. Each side's sponsors have behaved badly as well. Making peace needs to be about stifling the pointed finger of blame.

3) Any criticism of the American pro-Israel lobby is, unfortunately, a taboo subject almost certain to raise charges of antisemitism. I find it fascinating that there might just be more Christian Zionists in America than there are Jews. Not that there's anything wrong with that, unless you count the deleterious effect that wingnuts (no land for peace, pro-pre-emptive war with Iran, the 2nd coming contingent on the return of the Hebrews to the Holy Land and war-to-end-all-wars) like that have on our policy. They're more hardcore (harder core?) Zionists than almost every Jew I know.

4) As long as the US is supporting Israel financially and militarily (and unconditionally) the way we do, I believe the Middle East peace process should be the number one foreign policy priority, maybe even the number one policy priority period, of every US President. And unfortunately, it seems that the only type of President that has had any success with the peace process is the policy wonk who can sit down with the Middle Eastern leaders and personally push/pull through an agreement.

5) I read an editorial recently by (former Bushie) Michael Gerson, who wrote that it was naive to believe that US policy towards Israel has anything to do with rising anti-American sentiment in the Muslim world. With people like that whispering in Bush's ear, no wonder nothing gets done.

If there is one heartening thing about these posts, it is that some Americans are beginning to realize that our blind, unquestioning support of Israel is eminently harmful to the interests of the United States. We have funded their brutal subjugation of the Palestinians for 40 years, and vetoed any UN resolution that dares to condemn their predatory and racist actions.
This has earned us nothing but the eternal enmity of the Arab world.

It sickens me no end that we are pouring endless billions into the Israeli war machine while American schools, hospitals, and cities go underfunded. I for one don't understand why we finance countries like Israel when New Orleans lies in ruins.

And to those who say they know what is going on in the West Bank and Gaza I say- travel there. You would be ashamed at what you are paying for.

Well, I've seen alot of the usual vitriol one gets when the Middle East is involved, almost all of it pointless, and, more to the point, off-topic.

The topic of the article is about how a particular group of people respond to a particular set of 'terrorist' acts (I view the whole 'Americans don't get it' thing as a side issue). Why do the majority of you feel the need to lecture about (your stilted views on) Middle Eastern politics and history? Like we haven't heard all of that before? The article is more about human psychology than politics. The 'root cause' of the terrorism isn't an issue.

Or, in the interest of narrowing the discussion, how about discussing the effectiveness of the 'terrorism' in general (described a 'tactic' by one of you). That's what I don't get about the situation. I'm sure the Gaza rocketeers see it as some sort of 'symbolic' act, but I can't see it as anything but stupid.

Can anyone give me an example of a terrorist act that actually accomplished anything other than ticking off the other side? And leave out Hiroshima/Nagasaki - it wasn't the act that did it - it was ease with which we accomplished it that did it.

The article is instructive in some ways, not in other ways. Irrespective of whether the policies of Israel cause the problems that they encounter, the people have their ways of coping, and perhaps they are reasonable for their situations. The USA's problems are indeed quite different. It seems unlikely that terrorism in the U.S. will ever be a daily problem. That just leaves the question of whether infrequent large scale terrorism will be a big problem. Given a sample size of one incident, who knows.

The U.S. is certainly screwing up its response to Islamic militancy, as is Israel, as is most of the Islamic world. Collectively, we are all being total idiots, or at least all of our governments are being run by idiots. I don't see that this article points us anywhere useful, though, other than the generic answer that society must go on in some reasonable way and should not be put on hold because of the threat of attacks.

no peace without a winner.

To all of you who say Israel was illegitimately created through colonialism:

Please direct me to the posts that suggest that Israel was illegally created through colonialism.

That's an interesting take. Hummm. Which country was the parent state?

I did read where about 80%+ seem to think that Israel was illegally created by theft.

I tend to agree with the 80%.

I'm a bit unclear if you are suggesting that murder and displacement of a people (your example was the Kurds) justifies the mistreatment of any people.

I am also a bit unclear as to which war you are referring in you last sentence.

I am also a bit unclear with respect to your antecedent for "they" in your last sentence.

Perhaps you are suggesting that the "Jewish state" (to use your term) caused a war - or something like that.

If so, that's seems to be true but is inconsistent with the rest of your post.

Do you want to know what countries were also created by colonialism in the Middle East?
Lebanon
Jordan
Kuwait
Morocco
Algeria
Tunisia
Iraq

The entire African continent had no concept of the nation-state before colonialism. The Partition between India and Pakistan was done by British colonial officials.

Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia were created by colonial officials. Laos was part of Thailand. Cambodia was shared by Thailand and Vietnam. Vietnam was 3 distinct kingdoms.

If you are going to call Israel illegitimate because it was born from colonially-drawn borders, then almost the entire developing world is similarly illegitimate.

Or do people just see Israel as illegitimate because it is a Jewish state. God forbid.

Ask yourself this, during the Kurdish insurrection, when the government of Turkey destroyed 2300 Kurdish villages and displaced more than 2 million Kurds in the 1990s, where were your tears? Did you protest? This is a relatively recent event. Do you call for justice for the Darfurians? Or do you just care about the Palestinians, some of whom choose to leave their homes at the urging of Arab governments, some of whom fled in panic, and about 100,000 who were deliberately expelled OVER 50 YEARS AGO.

Ask yourself this... of all the Arab states, why did only Jordan grant the Palestinians citizenship? Lebanon keeps its Palestinians in slum-cum-refugee camps in deplorable conditions. They have no rights. Kuwait expelled all Palestinians. Iraq expelled its Palestinians. They weren't allowed to become citizens in either country. Why did they forbid them from citizenship? Because the Arabs believed the cause-- the hatred of a Jewish state in their midst-- was more important than resettling the victims of a war they caused.

I think the Israeli soldiers don't get Americans. We will simply not accept terrorism as a routine part of life. This isn't bravado. Americans are unapologetically middle class. All we care about is earning a good wage, bringing up our kids in a nice community, living the good life. We've always confronted and overcome anything that threatens this.

The corollary to this is Winston Churchill's statement: "You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have exhausted every other option." Yeah, it'll be a while before we solve this terrorism thing.

I think Vic Van Meter has the right idea. You have to end the bloodshed somehow. Eventually, the bloodshed will be ended, it's just a question of how and when. Both sides have legitimate grievances. The Israeli military is heavy-handed, the Palestinian side is the same etc. etc. etc. The fighting will end when Palestine admits that Israel can be, and Israel does vice-versa. Israel will never be defeated. The Arabs will always be there. Both sides know this; neither side has the guts to admit it.

I salute Van Meter for his stance on this issue. I happen to think a two-state solution with pre-1967 borders is the way to go. This may be an oversimplification, but we owe it to the little ones to try and achieve a lasting peace agreement.

I used to be fanatically pro-Israel until a Jewish psychiatrist ended my Homeland Security career. Now I want nice things for everyone. I didn't accomplish anything anyway by questioning hundreds of travelers from Middle Eastern countries. I know what it's like to be humiliated by a Jew on my own territory no less. That said, I don't think we'll get anywhere until we recognize Israel's right to exist and admit that they just aren't going to go away. If Palestine destroys Israel, they too will be destroyed and vice-versa. Everyone knows not-so- deep-down that this is the case, it's just that people can't stop the hate. CEASE-FIRE! If a schizophrenic can obey this command, so can the Israelis and the Palestinians.

America does not have a war on terrorism. The war on terrorism was stopped at Tora Bora, Afghanistan when special forces were moved to Kuwait for the invasion of Iraq. There have been a few exceptiions carried out by the CIA, but for the most part there is no war on terrorism.

Well, Israel is a small, diplomatically isolated, weak country totally dependent on US largesse and support for its very survival--although that apprently does not restrain ignorant 19 year old Israelis from lecturing us.
The Israelis may have no other options. But I don't want an America that sees terror as a reality to be lived with. We do have the capability to defeat it. The question is whether we still have the will. If we elect an Obama or Hillary next year, it will mean we don't.

I think I agree strongly with the previous comment! America should really step up the heat on our thankless "great friend" and have them give up at least some of the land they have occupied by force and abused for over 40 years now to the Palestinians. Israel is the sole reason we are hated so much in the Arab and Muslim regions. I am afraid that all of what we are going through now is because of that stance. This is not our fight but we are paying a heavy price for it -- in blood and treasure. If Israel wants to continue to be our friend, they are welcome. But they have got to accept that they too must behave like a normal country, not a 24/7 occupier, oppressor and a human rights violator. Our country cannot align itself -- for ever-- with a country like that, despite our mistakes in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have no doubt that that day of reckoning is coming!

We Americans must demand an end to Israel's Apartheid. End Israel's occupation of Palestine.

Were not for the creation and the blind support for "israel," 911,the war on Iraq and "terroism" would have never happened;if israel does not like "terrorism" then why not simply end its sixty year old occupation of all of Palestine and where jews go back peaecfully to where they come from.

Ehud Barack-PM and now Defense minister-once said in a slip of a tonge:" If I were a PAlestinian I would be a terroirst."

Goda mier once said:"what PAlestinians-they don't exist."

The so called "israeli's" are the last ones to talk about terrorism: their racist apartheid jewish theocarcy was built on violence and terrorism and in fact itroduced terrorism to the ME region,the murdered the UN envoy Coun Bernadout in 1947 and even their own PM Ytzhak Rabin-the jewish terrorist gangs such as the Haganah,palmach,Irgun,Stern etc..-ethnically cleanesed 70% of the indigenous Palestinians in 1947/8 and destroyed over five hundred villages to prevent the return of the ethniaclly cleanesed Palestinains who number now over six million and who still suffer in refugee camps sixty years later awaiting return as per UN 194 of 1947;once set up,"israel" has surrvived on brutal state terrorism backed by a momopoly of formidable nuclear arsenal in the ME-hence israel/AIPAC agitating for another war on Iran,again on false pretenses.

The "israeli soldiers" deliberately confuse national resistance to occupation with terrorism:PLO,Hamas and HEzballah were all established as a reaction to lengthy military occupation;the Brits called George Washington a terrorist and the Nazi's called the French resistance freedom fighters,terrorists. It is the executioner who accuses the victim and brand him as terrorist.

For more on israeli terrorism see the scholarly and balanced WWW.PLANDS.ORG

Awful lot of hate out there.

Anna - Thank you. You are the voice of sanity amongst a sea of posts that seemingly advocate 60 more years of blood-spilling and violence because one side is clearly "right" and the other so clearly "wrong." Peace in Israel and Palestine is a far-off, nearly impossible undertaking if voices play a role in negotiations.

I for one do not believe this article is one bit offensive. This article depicts the terrorism happening all over the world. It is not a new phenomenon. People in the Middle East and all over Europe not just Israel come face to face with it everyday. This article was not meant to offend us Americans. This article is just merely an opinion by individuals that were born with terrorism at their front door. In addition, whoever posted the hateful comment about the Israeli people reaping what they sow is ignorant. Why should the innocent people of Israel and Palestine pay for a conflict that started over a decade ago?

It's heartening to see that the majority of the posters are not buying this "poor Israel" propoganda, in spite of the power of the Israel lobby in the US. Remember, it was the Zionists who introduced terrorism to the middle east with their King David Hotel bombing in 1946 (whose anniversary the Israelis still celebrate every year as their independence day).

If you want to occupy a land and be secure, you have to kill kill kill the original inhabitants until they're a pale shell of what they once were - it's in the Old Testament and the Europeans certainly accomplished that in the New World.

In short, if this is going to be a single, unified world, a rather sizable group of people are going to have to be killed off in order for the vast majority of us Asian, African, European and American folks to be able to live together, prosper and attain a decent world. If you can't play nice these days, you should be obliterated.

Isn't it odd how two (or more) countries are waging a war of terror against each other and one of the guilty participants can only point at the U.S. and exclaim "Wait until it happens to you!" We (United States) have blood all over our hands because we have supplied weapons to one or more sides, are guilty of state sponsored terrorism ourselves under false facts and anti-muslim propaganda (the Iraq War). This issue will not resolve until the American people stop believing the White House. The American government is responsible for the escalation of tension by the very nature of its foreign policy.

"When -- or perhaps if -- terrorism strikes American soil again, America should do more than retaliate, they should also build up a community capable of bouncing back time and again."

Read that. Read it again. Don't argue about whether Israel is legitimate or not. Or whether liberals or conservatives have the right idea.
Think about how you can "build up a community capable of bouncing back time and again."

There's actually a pretty good blueprint for this. It's called the Constitution of the United States of America. Read that again, too.

I am disgusted by some of these comments. I am not pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian. To keep pointing fingers at each other the way you do is disgusting. "The Israelis are meaner to us than we are to them," "The Palestinians are so mean to us, how can you even talk to them"...Come on! Wake up! You both are ridiculous. Stop the destruction and start construction. Otherwise, get used to terrorism for a long, long time. It is not more noble for one side to take revenge and kill babies on the other side. It is more noble to reject barbaric killings and start talking.

We should be glad the Native Americans don't terrorize us for what we did to them (or the Spanish since they stole much of the land from them first). Fortunatley for us, the natives were made up of many cultures and were largely wiped out. Add a few hundred years and legal gambling and everybody is happy. The Jews were victims in WWII so we gave them a new home. Now the Palestinians are oppressed, but they have a strong culture and desire for revenge. It may take a few more generations for their rage to fade, especially if they keep pouring salt on their own wounds. Maybe they should channel all that energy into something constructive. How about building casinos?

Liberals assure us that the answer to the "bumper sticker War on Terror" is dialogue. But even screenwriters, experts on dialogue, can't manage to use it to advantage to end their strike.

Americans do not need an explanation of what people in Israel think is in America's best interest. American born Jews like myself are fed up with the rationalization of Middle East Israel behavior towards the Palestinians.
This young woman should instead read American history on why our forefathers throw th British out of the Colonies. The Israeli's are more arrogant then the British ever were. It wasn't the Israeli's who stormed the beaches at Omaha and destroyed the Nazi cancer.
This Israeli rationalization of terrorism is nothing more than the compulsive repetition of the Nazi nightmare in Europe, Israeli style in today's world.
This young woman should know that more and more Americans are getting fed up with American foreign policy that defends and promotes Israeli foreign policy.

Fear mongering. I mean when did we start worrying about terrorists attacking our homes? 911? Think of what was attacked. The world trade center and the pentagon. Tragic and truly sad that we lost so many innocent lives. However, terrorists are politically motivated as their targets suggests. Innocent lives lost in the middle east are the result of other countries interest in their natural resources and strategic locations. The innocents are lost in the middle of these struggles. I mean if some other country came over and occupied us could you imagine what we would do to ourselves? We attack each other on these pages now and are deeply divided politically. Do you think that would not get physical if our lives were being dictated by greed and misunderstanding. True, a worst case scenario and defeatist. However they feed us crap about how different we are from the rest of the world. That is pure BS! Further, I know the argument...we need to fight it there to keep it from happening here. Please, I don't see Switzerland worrying. Or any country that did not become part of the Bush/Blair willing. We create the threat by our unjust, greed based and life costing policies. This is an article created by a system that wants us to fear a enemy that really is using violence to disrupt our system and lure us in to more violence. Not a good recourse as we have seen how it fails. If you are fed fear then you will vote for the individual that spews out that they can protect you. They know these tactics and they use them on these pages.

Dear Biggie, check your history. 3000 years ago, when the "historic" jews arrived in the "promised land" it was already inhabited.

We are all, every single one of us, of "an ancient people." BFD. So were the indians.

Did Germany get a free pass on causing WWII? What did the Palestinians do to be forced to house the Jewish community? What accountability was laid at the feet of Germany?

Terrorism is a tactic. Hiding among civilians is a tactic. Using hidden soldiers (camouflaged as civilians) is a tactic. The Israelis are at war with some of the Palestinians (and, of course, vice versa).

It doesn't surprise me that the Israeli's hate what the Palestinians are doing. Nor does is surprise me that the Palestinians hate what the Israelis are doing.

The main question isn't when the participants in the war will stop using the tactics they have chosen (when they don't work, of course) but whether they'll ever decide that the war isn't worth fighting anymore.

As to whether the US "gets it" I can assure you that at least the several hundreds of thousands of soldiers and marines who have served in Iraq "get it" pretty well.

Interestingly enough, there was NOTHING in this article about how terrorism can be defeated. Even as these children soldiers 'lecture' us about it, they impart no wisdom on 'defeating terorrism.'

Rather telling, you cannot 'defeat' terrorism. Terrorism is not a cult, it is not a state, it is not a plan, it is a tactic, pure and simple. It is a concept.

You CANNOT DEFEAT A CONCEPT, and you cannot defeat a tactic! You can render a tactic valueless, but DEFEATING IT?! That's like saying you can defeat Archery, or carpet-bombing, it's simply not POSSIBLE. Those who insist we can, have lost touch with reality. Terrorism is not done for terrorisms sake, nobody blows stuff up simply in the name of terrorism!! They do it because they feel they have been repressed, oppressed, or otherwise injured. And it is the only way they feel they can strike back.

Israel has been fighting it a long time, and has yet to DEFEAT terrorism.

Anyone who insists we can defeat terror, is tilting at windmills, and it's wasting time, money and lives.

We can defeat the CAUSES of terrorism, but terrorism itself has always been, and always will be, because it's effective. The sooner we toss out the morons who insist on warring on a CONCEPT, the sooner America can restart it's progress, and leave the ignorance in the past.

Don't buy the lies of the Israeli propaganda machine
We Americans are going to get what we deserve if
we keep allowing our tax dollars to be used in
support of Zionism. Israelis are the new Nazis
and Zionists are the true racist scum of the earth

Interesting article but does not tell us what is terrorism. What I got so far is that, if Gazans fire a home made rocket into Israel, it is causing terror. But when Isareli F16 fire sophisticated missiles into Palestinian homes, it is not terrorism. Israeli missiles kill several Palestinian almost every day and tell the world, "we killed 10 millitants". Do we verify who Israel killed, nope. Thus we know that using weapons against unarmed civilians is not terrorism, becuase Israel does that everyday. And how dare we say that Israeli actions are terrorism. I am told opposing Israel is against our values or perhaps our constituion, some time I am lost in the whole juggling act.

One thing I know that resisting an instituionalized opperession is NOT terrorim. However, terrorism is understood by everyone differently. In the USA, we feel that if we do not have a defense against the weaponary of our enemy, we call it terrorism.

Can anyone, tell us Americans, what is Terrorism, so that we can understand it better.

Wow - what an article by Amar and the Israeli IDF dolly birds. 20 years of age and knows the issues inside out - what a commanding officer. I like the sentence that starts "An Education Corps member named Yuval Etziony from a Kibbutz (communal house) near Jerusalem". That really impresses me - imagine if Joe Stalin had given his people titles and departments such as that. The really courageous Israelis are the ones who refuse to serve the Israeli war psychosis and their treatment of the ubermenschen. Astonishing how a people who were treated so badly can dish out the same treatment to a defenceless people.

In the meantime - keep the propaganda to yourself or do not make it so obvious.

I am w/ John in Cinci, Canada has an army?? Do they drug test you?? ;)

We have no desire to become like Israel- correct

Well let’s see back in the 1700s American colonials knew terrorism as they first established settlements and then expanded beyond the Appalachians.
Of course today’s Palestinians are resistant to whiskey and small pox but of course can be still be "tamed" with bullets.

As for terrorism don’t Americans live it now?
No one knows the day or night that a crazed murderer-“suicide” decides to kill innocent school children, co-workers or shoppers and then take his own life?

Of course the fact that such actions are not "political" is rather mute to the victims and their relatives isn’t it?

We may not get terrorism but we certainly have no desire to become like Israel, thank you very much.

We may not get terrorism but we certainly have no desire to become like Israel, thank you very much.

Canada has an army?

SARA B, agreed.

I served seven years in the Canadian Army, and was on a number of counter-terrorism missions, as well as worked closely with Intel units.

Americans should never choose to live in a paranoid universe as the Israelis choose to.

We are made of sterner stuff than that. We live Free - and those who want us to live in a prison state don't get why our values