Comments (101)

Victor van Meter: Making anger and disgust coherent since 1985. We aim to please.

I'm not an outcast of society, believe it or not. I'm a bit of an outcast from organized religion, if that's what you'd like to call my take on it. Last night I went with my friends to a local place to shoot pool and today I'm back in a studio I'm fairly popular in (not EVERYONE likes me, but that's life). I'm just not docile about who I am. I'm usually pretty restrained on these forums (for me).

Bekdil, I don't direct that shot at ALL Muslims. I know a lot of Muslim friends of mine and they tend to be (surprise surprise!) exactly the same as I am most days of the weak. You just don't talk about how good the food you're going to eat is while they're fasting. The reaction from most of the Muslims I knew to that Danish cartoon wasn't anger, it was a sort of confusion. It's not like there aren't leaders in America already linking Islam to terrorism as a reflexive relationship. And those people are allowed to be as bigoted as they want as long as they pay for their airtime and someone is willing to listen. So a couple cartoons on the subject don't exactly roil emotions in Ohio amongst the Islamic community (if you can call it a community).

So I'm not talking about all muslims everywhere, all the time, no exceptions. The main point of what I'm saying is that we here in America are subject constantly to criticism over our imperial past. That I can deal with, I've been dealing with it any time I talk to someone outside my country. But when I hear Middle Eastern Muslims talking about the glory of the old Caliphate, it's a little agitating that, somehow, everyone else's empires can be vaunted while our past expansionalist tendencies define everything we are to some of our international friends.

Ours is, understandably, more recent (and by that, I mean CURRENT, Bush) but you can't glorify the Ottoman Empire and call American imperialism the bane of humanity. America is doing with Democracy what the Caliphate did with Islam, for good or bad, and comparitively America is tiptoeing around to do it.

That, and if you couldn't tell, religion as a set of organizations and I have had our differences in the past. You might catch that out of me from time to time...

Yol seems a little like the cultural civil rights films that came out here in America around the 80s, like Mississippi Burning. A lot of controversial wounds were opened up in those days.

Victoria

Again we are back to insults and loathings of constans and to the use of "emotional" stuff.

"You don't advocate advancement, you advocate regression. You can't stand the slander of Muhammed or God or really anyone"

"This conversation has gone from irrational to a downright convention for the emotionally challenged, disaffected outcasts of society"

By the way Victor,Moslem converts in the US know about Islam more than Turks. They won't say that wearing a Tshirt showing Danish Cartoons is an act of rebellion aginst Prophet Mohammed s.a.s

I saw that YOL movie. It was so disgusting. it also showed the mentality of Secualr Turks and how they ruined the country with their backward policies.

Tom Miller, not sure if you're still checking this thread, but just saw your message re: movies about Turkey. One powerful one I just finished is about a group of prisoners in the 1980s taking a leave to visit their respective homes. It's called Yol. See it here. It's a "harsh portrait" says the review, but it is very well shot and presents compelling characters.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084934/

Other suggestions from readers? Please post away!

This conversation has gone from irrational to a downright convention for the emotionally challenged, disaffected outcasts of society.

Vic:
"I'm just fine being somebody's Satan."

Victoria:
"i im happy that i have such a universal way of speaking that you coud both interpret such extreme opposite views in my posts-"

****

I think this is my exit cue.

There is no reason to reason when reasoning is unreasonable.

Vic and Victoria, Enjoy your irrelevant and irrational fatalism.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

muslms take a hike- you are seriously confuisng me with someone else-

"Also note that when you say that "Turks will return to their Ottoman past", you wouldn't be able to do"

i never said that at all or even inferred it

unless you have a magic book, your access to turkish history is the same as the turks-

why should we believe that turks got it wrong becuase their alphabet was changed- but you somehow mysteriously got it right?

it doesnt make logical sense

i never mentioned 'pride' in any way-

MTAH- ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE TALKING TO THE RIGHT PERSON?

spidon accuses me of being a turkish islamist
you accuse me of being a turkish secularist

i im happy that i have such a universal way of speaking that you coud both interpret such extreme opposite views in my posts-

but IM NOT TURKISH!
im a eurocentric american mutt

i went to elementary school in pittsburgh PA USA-
(morse and phillips morse in the southside vic)
(boggs avenue too)

i think its possible you are responding to someone elses post?

ive only commented on YOUR comment that ruks dont know their own history becuase the language changed-

stay focused, reread what ive posted-

i think you'' find that you confused me with someone else

peace

See, Spidon, this is why I don't trust what you write very often.

If you read my posts, you'd know I didn't join the military. I was all ready to go, then decided not to for one simple reason. I realized I wasn't just swearing to defend the country, I was also swearing to follow the orders of the President. And I don't like him anywhere near enough to want to put my life on the line on his say-so. I've said this pretty often and never once said I am a serviceman. If you glance through what I read, you miss these kind of glaring things. If you were actually reading my posts, you'd know I'm almost finished with college and I work full time. I have since high school.

If you'd read my LAST post, I didn't talk about change. I was bringing up your traditionalism, your orthadoxy. Your commitment to an old Ottoman Empire ideal that neglected the fact that all great power is built on a great crime is my focus.

You don't advocate advancement, you advocate regression. You can't stand the slander of Muhammed or God or really anyone. Guess what! My religion is slandered every day, sometimes to my face, and every day in the news. Somewhere, someone is mocking me, pretending they know my religion and not knowing anything. And am I going to be indignant about it? Of course not. These people have no idea what they're talking about. They haven't been here, where I am, and odds are they never will. So I adapt with the times, move without forcing anyone into my structure. I live in my own and if you've noticed that I don't give a lot of overwhelming respect to someone who needs to fit their life into a preconditioned mold, then you'd be reading my posts.

You don't know my experience; I've never talked about it and honestly I don't feel the need to. But what I can tell you is that any time you look back into the glorified past, you're looking at a pastoral picture of how, a hundred or even thousand years later, we've managed to paint over the crimson. Armenia wasn't even a molehill compared to the kind of murder perpetrated by the original Ottoman Empire on their conquest. Ottoman history doesn't belong to Muslims, Spidon, history belongs to every single person on this planet who cares to look it up. And the Persian and Ottoman empires have plenty of blood to show for their gains. And this isn't something you can sweep under the rug.

History isn't what Turkey needs. It's doing just fine in the present. Turkey will survive the way it's going, whichever way it chooses, as long as they keep making the correct political decisions. Sometimes US support looks like an idiot political move in their region, but Turkey, as long as they remain in NATO, have American opinion by the throat. If you think for one second that Turkey is going to ever allow something with legal ramifications to pass in America, you underestimate their influence. See how quick Pelosi's little gambit got killed in committee? It never stood a chance. Like a bottle rocket, sparks flew, it made a lot of noise, and in the end there wasn't much bang and it was too far away to matter much. Turkey knows where its best position is right now, secular or not, and it's with one hand on America's shoulder and both feet in regional power struggles.

If the American unpopularity in Turkey happened in, say, Jordan, there wouldn't even be a thread about it. But the second Turkey is mad, suddenly we're worried about a Middle East image. Because Turkey, whether you like it or not, matters a lot. And the Kurds and Armenians are either going to get with the program or get run over, because when even George "They'll Like Me Better With a Gun To Their Back" Bush is VERY concerned how Turks feel about America. Pelosi and her House cohorts are the only ones here screaming about the Armenian Genocide.

I think the killings were a genocide. We've all got genocides we don't want to talk about. But it's NEVER going to be solved by law, and America's a bad place to look if you want help with your plans. Americans don't care about Turkish ethnic groups, they only care about Turkey as a whole. And until the Kurds or Armenians are running Turkey, they aren't at the top of the list. That's just plain and simple. Until the Kurds or Armenians make themselves more important than the Turkish population (and they have to do that without finding their way into our terrorist organization hit list) then you can sit right there for a real long time.

Because unless the situation changes, this one's working best for Turkey and the United States. Tough luck. But don't look for sympathy and start mentioning old history lessons. In the list of cultural grievances, Africa hits probably 1-20 in some capacity or another. So if you're worried about a genocide predating the Holocaust retarding Turkey's social maturation, you can get in line behind the cultural slaughterhouses happening just southwest of you.

It was bad when it happened, few argue anything but that, but there are a lot bigger issues on hand right now (namely, the United States government on the warpath that its citizens can't seem to stop) for us to be worrying about the Armenians and Kurds.

We have a lot of reorganizing to do, Turkey is probably the most stable ally of ours in the Middle East, and so you're on your own. Maybe instead of trying to convice a couple Americans with bigger, more globally important issues on hand (like Bush's nuclear armed friend near Turkey who just so happens to have made a power grab, or Israel and Palestine's next attempt at not shooting each other, or even Bush's own ability to lose sight of the ball and screw us over bigtime) you can go ahead and make a bigger stint in Turkey, where it actually matters, people have power to change policy, and everyone isn't just watching it like some kind of inter-relationship arguement in a grocery store.

Seriously, welcome to an angry, violent, painful reality. I'm sure the injustice stings. That will happen a lot. You might get blamed for things you aren't in control of, or you might be hated because the leader of your country goes crazy, or you might even be called to account for things your ancestors did some hundred or so years ago. Get used to that feeling of indignation. Because, truth be told, I don't even pretend 90% of the people here actually are concerned with what I'm honestly saying. They'll skim the post, pick up what they need, and post on me with whatever ammunition they think they have against us anti-whatevers.

I know nine out of ten people don't care where I'm from, why I say what I say, or even what I say. They've got an opinion about me without even knowing me. And if you get used to it, you too can tolerate the ongoing disappointment that is life.

Or you'll rail hopelessly against Americans sick of being villainized because no matter who they side with, they're certainly going to be the devil incarnate to somebody. Whichever you prefer. I'm just fine being somebody's Satan.

Victoria

Again you display a character of Turkish Secularists who hate Ottoman Islamic history.The secular-Islam hating-Turks use the word "pride" whenever the Ottoman past is referred to.

Elif Shafak once wrote in Zaman,the old internet edition, about the existence of those who take the Ottoman side and say that they are the best, and those who say that they are bad and backward.
Two sparring sides.

Elif Shafak tries to exist in the middle but the middle in Turkey regarding the Ottomans doesn't exist.

The amount of hate the Ottomans and their history received from Westerners,Easternes, and from the worshippers of Ataturk is absolutely abnormal.

I look for the bad sides of the Ottomans before the good one because I know that no one is perfect but Allah. There are also two reasons: by comparing the Ottoman padishahs to the current Moslem leaders, no matter how bad Ottomans were,they still by far better and more sincere than all of them.The second reason is because of you and people like you who use the word "pride" then"backwardness",then "Europe or modernity".

Just like you did when you brought the slaves, Germans, the Americans, the Armenians,....

WHAT HAPPENS TO TURKEY TODAY ISN'T BECAUSE OF THE OTTOMANS IT IS BECAUSE THE EDUCATED SONS OF THOSE SLAVES YOU TALKED ABOUT.THEY SPENT FEW DAYS IN EUROPE,LONDON OR PARIS, THEY GOT JOBS AS STATEMEN IN THE OTTOMAN SARAYS.THEY LOOKED EDUCATED BUT THEY DID'NT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT STATESMANSHIP. TEHY WERE SLAVES FOR CLONIAL EMPIRES AND THE LIAISON OFFICERS BETWEEN THEM WERE "JEWS AND ARMENINAS" TEHY BORUGHT THE WHOLE EMPIRE TO ITS KNEES.

THEY NEVER MADE THE OTTOMAN STATE A MODERN ONE. THEY NEVER TRANSFERED TECHNOLOGY FROM EUROPE. INSTEAD, THEY TALKED ABOUT TURKISH WOMEN FORNICATING WITH EUROPEAN MEN TO HAVE SMART EUROPEAN CHILDREN AND IMPROVE THE TURKISH RACE!! THIS WAS THEIR VIEW OF MODERNITY.

So viki it is not the Ottomans who are still being called "traitors", like Padishah"Vahdettin" by people like the Ispartan former President,who caused Turkey's current problems. It is you and people like you 200 years ago who did it.

so don't get the idea that the matter is just "extolling" the Ottomans past. It is a very powerful knowledgable experience for me.

@ Vic Van,

I find your position very interesting in that it displays your own personal experience rather than advocating a position of change.

It is interesting to me that your position is one of predetermined and rationalized fatalism on the subject of change.

It is no secret that all cultures and peoples are guilty of brutality toward our fellow man. It is also true that we are incapable of changing the past, but to be accepting of the past as a predetermining feature toward our future is very fatalist and dangerous. We learn history so as to advance our humanity, not for the purpose of repeating the past.

You have mentioned your service to your country in posts in the past, and I read your present post as quite the definitive aspect of your experiential sum, to draw the conclusions you have made above. It is one thing to see history objectively, but without the critical faculties applied to see the human errors errors therein, we only make lists upon lists of things, rather than things that have meaning

You call yourself a realist but I fail to see how, since you step beyond your experience of past and move toward the future without acknowledging that change is possible and even necessary. If we do not question the moral problems caused by our past actions how can we hope to not repeat them?

Vic, I sympathize with you and your experience, since I am certain that it has molded your present detachment; probably as a self preservating necessity; but I suspect that if you apply some criticism to your experience you will be empowered by the act.

This is exactly the same matter that must be acknowledged in our understanding and acceptance of history. Acknowledgement and criticism are necessarily preconditions when betterment is sought.
Germany went through a healing process by acknowledging the brutality it had caused during WW1 and WW2. This is by far, the most significant reason for why it has been able to achieve the great and profound rebuilding it has undergone since.
Turkey would be equally empowered by such an act and her neighbours would be happy participants in her maturity, knowing that in the process they are made to feel the relief of not having an aggressive neighbour, who's past determines her present. What we see however, is the evasive actions Turkey takes to not have to admit fault and as the propagandists are busy rewriting history, they are also busy repeating it.

The ongoing drama with the Kurds is not new and if we look back in Turkey's history and transpose Armenian when we say Kurd, we see the result of the fatalism of a nation that is on the brink of self-destruction. Turkey will not survive in her present way of thinking.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

To the Moslem World in Wherever You Are,

Technically, Americans were acting in glorious self-defense when they carpet bombed German population centers. In fact, after the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, America launched a carrier raid and carpet bombed Tokyo. My country dropped two atomic bombs in the Great War. My ancestors drove a native people into the dust, kept a whole color of people enslaved for over four hundred years, and have contributed to the colonization (I won't mince words) of other pieces of land that were never ours.

If I were a prideful, unrealistic man looking at our past through rose-colored lenses, I'd say my country has a proud military history. Since I'm not a complete idiot, I'll say conflict has largely defined my people and it is how my people have affected the world.

The Ottoman Caliphate (or Ottoman Empire, depending on how you look at it) did very much the same. They were a conquering people who swept a bloody trail across three continents (but never took Vienna, of all places). Slavery was an important part of the Ottoman infrastructure, and as many as 1/5 of Istanbul's population were all slaves. And, on the fringes of society, slavery continues in the Empire's old territory. The Ottoman Empire is just like every other world power, it was built on a foundation of bones.

But you can always be proud of your Ottoman past. Of course, you can novelize everything that ever transpired in the Caliphate under those noble Moslem leaders. And in the end, I guess they were capable of great good. So were my ancestors.

But I get reminded, daily even, of all the blood on my country's founders' hands on this forum. The Armenian Genocide resolution popped up all sorts of unpleasantness, as if my country was the only nation in the world capable of a great amount of evil in the name of power. But I bear it when I look back at my past. I can try to relish it all I want, the American people of old have committed attrocities for which we shall never be forgiven.

It must be nice to be able to have Ottoman pride without realizing that the Ottomans were guilty of every offense my own country committed. I don't mind extolling the Ottoman Empire if that's your agenda, but you forfeit your right to criticize America's government even if they are, at the very worst, colonizing the Middle East with Democracy.

The Ottomans did it with Islam. It's not so much different.

Victoria

The way you are making fun of my reasoning prove that it is correct.

It also proves that a you are a secualr Turk who hate Islam and its prophet. You also hate Ottoman history because it reminds you of conservative Moslem padishahs like" Sultan AbdulHamid".

Remember what your secualr Greek grandparents told you about Padishah Abdulhamid.How he was a backward and how he stole the country and stood against the modernizer masons and zions of Ittihad ve Terraki,...,the Red Sultan,...etc Hating Ottoman History is in your blood.This what you learned form your God"Ataturk" in elementary school when you were a child.

The Ottoman history belongs to all Moslems. Moslems know that it was changed by the worshippers of Ataturk and its enemies including the Brits.

Also note that when you say that "Turks will return to their Ottoman past", you wouldn't be able to do that not only because it is written in another language but also because your not clean and honorable enough to return to it, for the time being of course! if you want an example check what your tourism authorities did to atract arab tourist in Aljazeera TV..A Turkish prostitute jumps from Beylerbey and her serseri jumps from Ortakoy Camii.

People are free to believe whatever they want.This is my discretion and my defence of my Ottoman Anatolian ancestors,who were servants and protectors of Islam. I don't make my living by writing lies and loathing Islam and its prophet.

:)

whoo-hoo!

Actually, Spidon, I put more stock in what Vicki says than you. At least she SEEMS to be interested in what everyone else is saying. Even if she's just pretending, she's doing a better job than you. I don't always back her, but I've always given her space to write whatever she wants.

So everyone attacking her spirituality can shove your attitudes where they belong, straight up your backsides. You can say all you want about how she practices Islam or doesn't, but she can honestly do whatever she wants as long as it makes her happy. If that's what she thinks Islam is, then that's what Islam is to her. She's still allowed to read the Qoran and form her own individual opinion about what it says. And if tomorrow idiots like you do to her what my old churches did to me, then she'd be just as allowed to throw the book away. How dare anyone call her less than they because of how she practices her religion!

So Spidon, if you don't want to hear about her life, then don't start asking her personal questions. It's not a difficult concept. I'm actually interested in hearing about people's personal experiences and the like. It helps me understand why they write how they write. So Victoria telling us about what she does helps me understand what she writes about.

Don't get angry because you can't garner the same respect out of us that she has etched. If I had to pick between her posts and yours, there's no question whose I'd go with, even if we aren't always in agreement. I'd want to hear from Victoria, no matter what she's wearing or does for a living. It's at least worth taking my time to talk to her.

@ Victoria,

We have put up with your autobiographical, though none the less, irrelevant postings long enough. The topic of discussion is about Turkey; how it is seen in in the US; how Turkey sees the west; and why; and not about Victoria.

Please get yourself a blog of your own where you can rant all you want; where your opinions will be within context of the topic being discussed; where it will not be perceived as illiterate to use only lowercase letters; where you can forgo sentence structure; where you can work out your psychological issues without having to dump them onto the lap of people who truly do not care; and where you will be happier by not being questioned on the ridiculous things you say.

Do we have a consensus on the matter? How many posters agree?

****

OK, then, now back on topic!

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

spidon- ive asked you several times - starting mildly curious, (but polite) to be responded to so personally insulting and vehemently, that i am really curious as to your motives.

they (as ive noted) cant be purely for the sake of humanitarianism, as a true humanitarian has compassion for all-not a select group-

and you never talk about the kurds- or the armenians (which a humanitarian would also)
unless it serves as a segue into turk-bashing.
your obsessive concentration on convincing everyone else to hate turks, hasnt had that effect on me-

but it has led me to wonder what makes you in particular hate them so much.

clearly its not encountering a 19 year old report on abuse

but has much deeper motives

i have nothing against greeks- im hand feeding a 2 week old kitten (which is quite job, believe me) that im giving to the greeks down the street in 6 weeks

i have no reason to hate turks- i know alot of them, spent every day last ramadan praying and eating with them

i have nothing agianst kurds, i took one into my home for a few months and totally supported them when they hit american shores, AND helped them marry my best friend!

(well, i did know one really creepy pervo macedonian guy- but he called himself turk, and i didnt find out he was macedonian until after hed moved)

so whats up with you, dude?

you hate truks, well, ok, we get that.

but why is it so important to you that you get others to hate them too?

would it justify your own racism to do so?

you cannot justfy it- even if every person agreed with you- racism and prejudice are ugly things.

so whats up with you?

spidon- your ad hominems and rudeness dont deserve response

bekdil- if you are claiming to be muslim bekdil (and i dont know as you havent said)

you are dishonoring your religion by telling a msulimah to go get a job.

if you actually are a muslim- you should retract such a hypocritical statement.

also bekdil- the very NATURE of teenage rebellion is reacting against and doing the opposite of the parents

how can a turk rebel against their parents and islam?
thats what teenagers do- who cares?
take care of your own- my opinion in america isnt going to change some girls mind in turkey
there are really really more important issues to discuss than some hypothetical teenage rebellion in turkey

heres the actual post i made-
ps - i couldnt be less interested if you lke it , hate it , or are indifferent.

the question was, can girls wear t shirts, and do i like secular turks

personally- i think there cant be a really very noble motive to outwardly insult a group of people or try to deliberately inflame them.

so i would find it somewhat childish and probably ignore it.

i find denigrating others beliefs rather distasteful in general and extremely unimaginaitve.

if the secular turks are comapssionate and good mannered people, id like them as well as i like any good hearted people (which is a lot)

if they were pushy and angry about it id ignore them like i ignore any rude people

that sure is a funny question

the arificial boundaries of a nation are about the most contrived and superficial delineations one could imagine

if you're talking about nationalists- i have little use for flag wavers in general

but id have to meet them- how could i know if i like someone i never met?

peace jawad
November 13, 2007

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
now ill add this-

i LEAN towards hanafi teachings

Victoria, in a previous discussion you claim that you wear a hijab and that you are a follower of Hanafi.

and i dont claim- i state- i wear hijab and its not your business

i find it kind of sad that bekdil thinks the only opportunities in life consist of a basic job.

it actually want what i was thinking

it was in repsonse to bekdils accusation that im trying to look nice for the west

if i wanted to look nice, id take off the hijab- as it doesn nothing to help me socially in america and draws alot of antipathy

but it also givens many opportunities to give dawa- so i think the trade off is a good one

for 9 years, ive been asked every single week (usually more than once a week) if im a nun-

i relish the chances to give people a little insight into islam- it is so demonized here
i welcome the chance to angelicize it

i WISH our big overwhelming concern was what teenaged girls wear to school!

bekdil- if your overriding concerns in life is how someone elses daughter is expressing her fashion sense- say alhamdoulilah- thank the god-
you are very blessed to be able to obsess on such a minute issue becuase you have no large ones to contend with.

but in concentrating on this minutiae, you are probably ignorng bigger problems that need addressing.

first off- let your women and girls into your mosques, as demanded by the Propeht(pbuh)

even the qu'ran states that the mosque is the refuge for the woman.

by keeping them segregated and excluded- you are teaching your daughters to rebel to begin with

go to the root of the problem, the seminal impetus.
educate your girls islamically and they wont feel the necessity of wearing t-shirts with cartoons on them defaming our Rasul(pbuh)

@ Victoria

It would appear that your ability to copy/paste irrelevant information, greatly overrides your ability to read. It is a fact that any monkey can be trained to copy/paste, but thinking requires some human abilities that are shown lacking in your irrational, erratic, disjointed style.

Victoria, what is shown in your actions, is that you have little faith that people can read and draw conclusions based on the information at their disposal. It might be interesting to note that the format of PostGlobal is one where people are obliged to read and as such, can judge on their own what is said.

Victoria, in a previous discussion you claim that you wear a hijab and that you are a follower of Hanafi.

newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/america/2007/10/turkey_fethullah_gulen_america.html
November 10, 2007 12:40 AM
"...if i wanted to look noce to westerners (or myslef i guess) id take off my hijab, and all sorts of opportunities (that dried up when i put it on) would be offered to me again... i lean toward hanafi teaching"

You also claim that you have worked in soup kitchens in LA and in NY, feeding the homeless (previous discussions on PostGlobal), though you spend all of your time being a Turkish propagandist on the net; copy/pasting irrelevant and stupid information that is meant to confuse and diffuse any topic in discussion. Is it possible that your hijab is too tight?

It was suggested by a responder in the discussion mentioned above; after your hijab story, that what you are lacking is a job, and I quote:
"Bekdil Karayol:
victoria
YES.
Please take of your HijaB and get a JoB!!!
peace be upon you
November 10, 2007 3:20 AM"

I agree with Mr. Karayol's conclusions and will add that you also lack purpose.

****

For anyone who is truly interested in formulating conclusions on Turkey's present state of denial, they can read through the thousands of human rights violations as listed in the HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH ON TURKEY that I have posted above. Victoria's assertion that I have posted 20 year old evidence is a way to discredit the information I have posted.

...And to address Victoria's assertion on this issue, the latest entries to the HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH are from:
October 16, 2007
July 19, 2007
July 18, 2007
June 28, 2007
April 13, 2007
.... and so on and so forth; approximately one or two entries/month, dating back to January 1, 1992, since there is a shortage of space on the database to display earlier cases.

****

Given the lack of respect for human dignity shown by the Turkish elite, the problem is made worse by the denial shown by the Turkish propagandists to avert our gaze from the truth.

Those who read will be able to tell.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Moslem World to TR take a Hike

Victoria was asked about if it is ok for Turkish girls to wear T-shirts showing Danish Cartoons in Turkish campuses.... Read her reply

"well, my philosophy is that i always look to the seminal impetus of anything- the core- the root cause and intention

i guess a turkish college girl is either finding her own identity, wants attention, is following her crowd, or trying to rebel against her parent"

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/america/2007/10/turkey_fethullah_gulen_america.html#comments.

Secular Turks are always like this. The are not spritual people and their philosophy as you can read stink!!!!!!!!!!

How could a Turkish boy or a girl rebel against their parents by attacking and loathing Islam and its prophet?!

you're funny moslems take a hike

ill add that to my repertoire of weird identifcations and accusations ive received

anyway- you didnt answer the question!!!

if turks themselves cant read their history because the alphabet was changed (thanks for the redundant pointless non-reminder)

what makes you have the ability to circumvent the same circumstances that gives you special insight into turkish history?

do you have a magic history book that turks havent ever found?

or did you sit on your turkish grandma's knees while she recounted firstheand stories to you?
(which is another way history is related and recorded)

did you have that extra beneficial access to information? an aunite who fed you cookies and taught you eyewitness accounts of history?

or is it the magic history book that no turk can access?

in other words, why should anyone possibly believe your account over any other???????

"Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was similarly "modernising" Turkey at this time by forcing Turks to move from Arabic to Latin script (which is one reason, I suspect, why modern Turkish scholars have such difficulty in studying vital Ottoman texts on the 1915 Armenian Holocaust"http://news.independent.co.uk/fisk/article2941871.ece

By the way Victoria. Your are secular Turk and your name should be Victor the Secular Turk.

No nice old American woman who converted to Islam write the stuff you do.

MUSLIM TAKE A HIKE-

that is the silliest reasoning ive ever heard-

turks dont know their own history because the alphabet was changed, but somehow,YOU DO??

how did you circumvent the language barrier?

was your tukish uncle telling you stories when you were a grasshopper?

SPIDON- i didnt point anythin gout to validate it
i find your obsession and your 20year old stories incredibly redundant

you are either

1) a goofball who thinks hes being validated when hes being discredited

or

2) deliberately disngenuous

Baris,

This is why you rarely, if ever, see me respond to Spidon. He has a Bushist way of thinking, that by repeating the same thing, over and over, it reshapes the debate into simply attacking the point because that is all that is presented to debate.

Bushists deserve to be shunned. You don't need to follow a truck that only moves down a one-way street into a dead end. You know where it's going and you know it isn't coming back unless it breaks the rules.

So screw him.

Cannot believe some of the non-sense junk which has been posted here.

And people like Spidon does show clearly that the Armenian lobby doesn't waste an opportunity to insult Turks, by pointing out reports from 16 years ago or from the Cold War for example :))

Grow up, will you? You pasted the same post how many times precisely? :)

These problems are a continuation of old Kemalist policies

To anyone interested in formulating an objective and personal opinion on the matter at hand, a good place to start is by reading where the Turkish problems come from. Please copy/paste the line below into your browser and simply read the thousands of Human Rights violations by Turkey as listed by the organization HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH:

hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=turkey

****

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

"Result: Amplification of our prejudices maybe some relief of releasing the pressure / the hate / the oppressed feelings accumulated inside us. I find not much positive outcome."

Stay out from oppressed feelings and concentrate on what is written? Are they true or not?

Jews and Armenians in the US and TODAY are twisting Turkey's arm just like they did with the help of Talat pasha. History repeat itself.

TURKS ARE ACCUSED OF TRASHING THEIR OTTOMAN HISTORY!!!!! THAT IS JUST PLAIN SHAMEFUL.

Elif Shafak wrote an Article in Zaman claiming that KEMALISM WAS A MOSLEM REFORM MOVEMENT!
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=116911

ISLAM HAS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH KEMALISM

Shaihuleslam Mustafa Sabri Tokatli, the last Scholar to hold Shaihuleslam position, was told by Kemalist" Yes we will take whatever the EuropeanS have...the infection in their lungs...even the filth in their bowels".This scholar is considered the person who saved the Islamic world from the filth of Kemalism. The Kemalist fought him till his last day. He died in Egypt in poverty.

"One of the things I developed for myself to stay as objective as possible is that: Every human being shares a common soul. There is no superior race, superior culture, more virtuous clans. or hundred percent evil race, incapable cultures.. I could be in the place of the Hitler, if the conditions are set in that direction for my personal...."

ENOUGH WITH FANTASY.THIS IS TRUE WHEN ONE SOMKS HASHISH AND DRINKS FAKE TURKISH ARAK!!!

I am hopeful that eventually, with enough insistence on our part, Turkey will be able to turn the mirror the right way and accept her past and boldly look the future in the eye.

It is a historical fact that any progress has been preceded by long periods of peace and stability, of which Turkey has none. Turkey's position is to accuse anyone and everyone who is not in agreement with her aggressive and expansionist methods of the very thing plaguing her history and present.
Wanting to invade Iraq to resolve a problem that is clearly created by her unwillingness to accept minority and special interest rights; brutalize dissent; deflect blame and try to buy public opinion in the west, is really disconcerting. The end result from Turkey's actions is the continuation of the same human rights violations and abuses we have come to accept as normal from a state that is in complete denial of responsibility.

To what extent does the treatment of her minorities contribute to Turkey's problems?

For anyone interested in an objective and personal assessment on the matter, please copy/paste the line below into your browser and read the thousands of cases of Turkish human rights abuses.
From the HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH:

hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=turkey

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Positive outcome?!!!!

The thing we name "history" is quite strange thing. And it becomes stranger when you follow these kinds of forums / discussion lists.

When I look at all the comments in the forums like that, most of the time I see that this is another battlefield. Instead of swords, axes, rifles, bombs, tanks and fighter jets; we use "words" backed up with our prejudices and our limited information. Result: Amplification of our prejudices maybe some relief of releasing the pressure / the hate / the oppressed feelings accumulated inside us. I find not much positive outcome.

Everbody says that history must be "objective", and I feel this is the most difficult thing if you are somewhat attached to that history. It is really really very difficult.

One of the things I developed for myself to stay as objective as possible is that: Every human being shares a common soul. There is no superior race, superior culture, more virtuous clans. or hundred percent evil race, incapable cultures.. I could be in the place of the Hitler, if the conditions are set in that direction for my personal history.

Than, I try to understand / differentiate what conditions are set the stage for this evil or good results.

I do not want to go in a lot of details since there is not enough space, I am not a philosopher and I do not want to bore you.

When I look at the history of Ottoman Empire, which I also somewhat belong, I see two things - which manifests itself quite obvious to me:

1. There are a lot of nations that were born from the ashes of the Ottoman Empire. They have a lot of pain they lived especially in the "falling stage of the Empire". This pain still lives. Lives and blinds and blocks any kind of positive relations with the remaining of the Empire.

2. The remaining of the Empire (not necessarily in the pure racist point-of-view since if you look at the gene pool is still quite varying) is also in pain. Pain of failing, losing too many people during the destruction of the Empire... In the fear and suspicion of the "destruction still continues"...This suspicion and fear still lives, and blinds and blocks any kind of positive relations with "old neighbors"...

Halozcel

The Shereefs lost and their grandchildren are protectors of Israel now.

Florence of Arabia is best left to the union of Turkish homosexuals of Bilgi U. They will benefit from his legacy in hating Arabs. By the way this union must help Turkey in the US against the Armenian powerful lobby.

John Philbey is the best figure to read about if you are interested in attacking the Wahhabis. Unlike Florence, this guy won. He converted to Islam and bought female slaves from Taif. He was a British spy, double agent, Christian, Moslem, wahhabi,freemason, zionist.

Also note that Turks don't really know their history very well because it is written in a different language.And if the Turks are serious about learining their history, they will discover many facts. For instance, Mustafa Reshid Pasha, Midhat Pasha, Talat Pasha, Anver pasha,..etc are all worst than the Wahhabis because they were working against Turkey's interest. They enabled minorities to destroy Turkey, and they loathed the Islamic faith with August Comptes filth. These Pashas were the real destroyers of the Ottoman empire.

Turks might learn also that certain Arab tribes, whose living depended on attacking caravans and pilgrims and who cover the Area from Gaza to the Arabian peninsula, never liked the Ottomans and the Ottomans knew this for centuries and paid lots of gold to other tribes and local leaders to protect the Caravans and pilgrims.

So if it is not surprising that these brigands would deal with the Brits against the Ottoman. However, it is really surprising to see people who prospered under the Ottomans, like Armenians and Jews, and others who were pampered by the Ottomans to stab the Turks in the back.

Halozcel;

Islam also says in a hadith 'the heaven is under the feet of mothers'

a mother is a woman.

and Islam's biggest award is heaven and it is under the feet of a 'woman'

it is enough.

@ Victoria(the Turkish propagandist), November 6, 2007 9:43 AM :

Thank you for pointing out the link in question.

For anyone interested in the Turkish Human Rights Record dating back to 1992 (due to limited space on the database of The Human Rights Watch) all the way to the present:

hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=turkey

Here are some of the highlights among the thousand or so Turkish violations:

Page 8:
Nothing Unusual
The Torture of Children in Turkey
Helsinki Watch has documented scores of cases of torture in Turkey since 1982, and Turkish lawyers who represent detainees claim that police routinely torture between 80 and 90 percent of political suspects and about 50 percent of ordinary criminal suspects, including children. Nothing Unusual documents the torture of children under the age of eighteen in Turkey. It concludes that such torture takes place in police stations and is carried out by police during the interrogation of children accused of both criminal and political offences. In addition, children are not allowed to see lawyers during their interrogations nor are their families notified by police of their whereabouts. It concludes with specific recommendations to end these appalling practises.
HRW Index No.: ISBN 1-56432-052-9
January 1, 1992 Report

Page 8:
A Matter of Power
State Control of Women’s Virginity in Turkey
An investigation of the prevalence of forcible virginity control exams and the role of the government in conducting or tolerating such exams, this report cites several separate incidents in the spring of 1992 when young females committed suicide after authorities ordered them to submit to examinations of their hymens.
June 1, 1994 Report
hrw.org/reports/1994/turkey/TURKEY.pdf

The above two links are from the oldest offences on the database. Page 1 will display the most recent but not any less serious offences.

****

To go to the above mentioned links, please copy/paste the addresses into browser.

Thank you once again Victoria for pointing this matter out to me.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

I am sorry to say Azarja, what you consider atypical is increasingly becoming typical, in the way Turkish society advocates the expansionist attitudes, that the old Ottoman Empire was so famous for.

Being poised to invade a foreign country under the auspices of targeting a small band of terrorists, who I might add, are more active within Turkey than within Iraq, is not atypical since we have so many historical references to draw parallels from.

You suggest that young Turkish filmmakers should be free to express themselves. I agree with you so long as you will agree that it should be their government that should allow them the liberty of expression as opposed to dragging them through the courts for not being Turkish enough as the Turkish government has done repeatedly. The most famous example is Orhan Pamuk, the Nobel Prize winner for Literature.

I happen to think that Orhan Pamuk is atypical and many of the regurgitated messages we see from Turkey are typical in that they promote intolerance to the typical and stereotypical Turk that the Turkish government is so ready to promote.

Is it not time for Turkey to grow out of its tainted past and become more tolerant of others as others want to be more tolerant even of Turkey?

Just a thought.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Just like 'Agnostic' I am not used to take part in internet discussions.
What I also share with agnostic is his or her view on the matter:

To me the article and the short clip are a glimpse of the healthy, cosmopolitan society that Istanbul is.
These are ordinary guys talking, trying to get their message across. And their message is, according to me: Turkey is not at all what it seems. This is a VERY GOOD message.

First, because I had the same cosmopolitan experience when I lived in Istanbul.

Second, because I experienced the same ignorance among some Americans. Of course not all, but there are American mothers who start to cry if their sons tell them that they want to study in Turkey. They get doom visions of beards and bombs.

Third, because I got so tired of all the east-west nonsense! Only look at Turkey or Istanbul in terms of east and west, or oriental and modern, or whatever opposition people come up with (as even some turks do)is to deny the unique and incredibly diverse turkish culture and society. Go and see for yourself: you'll meet open-minded students like these guys, but also over the top hospitable mothers. You'll meet poor Kurds who'll give you their last lira, deeply religious sufists who'll teach you how to love, and racist nationalists who'll teach you how to hate. There isn't but one Turk, there is a million.

In conclusion, I find it interesting that as soon as some motivated young filmmakers are given a second for a positive remark, people demand that they should have also spoken about genocides, human rights and other sensitive issues.
Why? Why are Turks suspicious when they smile and say they're modern? Such replies might be described as orientalist reactions: if the Turk says something a-typical to the image of Tuks in your mind, than either the Turk is not a real one, or the turk has a hidden agenda, that he'll come up with 'when pressed' (Quote from the article.

These are some thoughts that you're welcome to disagree with.

Azarja from the Netherlands

Dear Zubaida Finkel,

The woman has no name in islam.

The Book of Fear says,*women are your tilth* 2.223.Are you a *human* or *tilth* ?
Verse 2.222 describes woman as *pollution*.Dear Zubaida,are you *pollution* ?
A Hadith says *women are ''filthy creature''*.Are you *human* or *creature* ?
2.282 says *Two women equals one man*.Are you *half creature* ?
The Book of Nightmare says *man can take ''four women''* 4.3.To be one of four.Is this *dignity* ?
*Man can scourge woman*.Is it *your honor*.
Another Hadith says *women are deficient on ''intelligence'' and ''faith''* What is this ?
Woman has no right to divorce *her husband* and has no right to show her *unwashed hairs*(because,muslim woman take a bath once a month),but her husband may sleep *russian girl* or *german girl*

Dear Zubaida,Unconditional you shall leave islam.You shall try to be *human being*,not *half creature*.

spidon, have you still not mastered the task of posting a link?

http://www.hrw.org/

Selamunaleyküm,
Hakan seninle gurur duyuyoruz....

On the matter of women in Turkey:

Please see the link below; it is from THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH.

hrw.org/reports/1994/turkey/

A Matter of Power
State Control of Women’s Virginity in Turkey
"An investigation of the prevalence of forcible virginity control exams and the role of the government in conducting or tolerating such exams, this report cites several separate incidents in the spring of 1992 when young females committed suicide after authorities ordered them to submit to examinations of their hymens."
June 1, 1994 Report

The main page where one may find countless other reports on Turkey's human rights violations:

hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=turkey

****

What was it about Turkey that the West and specifically Hollywood misunderstands?

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) last words before his holy soul leaves to its creator were about the prayer and women.

Prayer keeps the Moslem connected to his creator and keeps him involved in a clean life, spiritually and physically.

Women are the soul of the society. In Islam, paradise is underneath Mothers' feet.

When Turkish women give up Islam, they give up dignity and honor.

Halozcel

"Do you reject this *reality* Who said *women are ''filthy creatures''*"

Turks and Westerners.

1- Because of their severe complex of inferiority to the West, Turks say that "Arab" Moslems see women as filth along with other accusations which westerners throw at Moslems in general to show them as inferior. Turks repeat that stuff like parrots because they want to feel like westerners and at the same time stress on the fact that they don't belong to the backward Moslem world. One would see a modern daughter of the Ataturk say "pislik Arap" to her American boyfriend and ex-German lover if Moslem Arab passes by her.
2- The Ataturk followed the advice of Abdula Cevdet which encouraged Turkish women to mix with European males to improve the Turkish race, to make it modern. Because Moslem women are the heart of the Moslem family and society, if anyone intends to degenerate the Moslem society, all what they have to do is to cheapen and harm Moslem women. Women who live with cheap moral values will pass them to their children. This is obvious today in the Turkish society. Therefore, the intention of the Ataturk, who was a descendent of Crypto-Jews, was to destroy Islam in Turkish family and make them like Europeans who today are suffering from immorality .
3- Turkish daily newspapers are full of photos of nude women, especially Turkish Models"manken" who would love to become European. These nude pictures are published daily in the first page of newspapers .
4- There is no powerful evidence of the degeneration of women other than Porn. Turkey is the only Moslem country which has a national Porn industry.
5- The fact that Turks consider adultery not a crime is another proof showing how the Turkish society is shooting itself in the foot. Many Turkish women complain that their Husbands cheat on them and they cannot do anything about it. This shows that Modern Turks undermine the institution of marriage. Modern Turks are submerged in the "aşk mşk" culture- the culture of being in love- which has got nothing to do with pure marriage life and their youth enjoy nothing but showing off their lust to each other.
6- Depriving Moslem women who wear the headscarf form attending university or working in government institutions.
7- Disaccrediting Islamic marriages and considering the secular process the only one that guarantees women rights. A process that deprives women form their rights if they marry in a religious way.
8- Istanbul Tourism authority had been running a tourism promotion ad in Eljazeera News Network targeting Arab Tourist. This ad begins with a Turkish woman wearing a red dress jumping form Beylerbey Ottoman Palace(Istanbul's Asian side) to hug a guy coming from the Bosphorus Mosque in Ortakoy(West side).

As one could notice in the tourist promotion ad, Turks are trying to be more western than the westerners themselves by showing how East meet West and at the same time promote the business in their brothels. The sad part is that the guy who is jumping to meet the girl in the red dress, who sold her Eastern values , from the back yard of the Ortakoy Camii and not form the night clubs which are located behind that mosque. According to that ad, Arabs are interested only in the Brothels of Istanbul and Izmir but not in Seljuk-Era historical sites in Anatolia; they are interested in the Hamams of Taksim not in Kapadokya.

This ad doesn't only promote sex tourism but at the same time imitate how Arabs was depicted in the Western film industry as lust mongers submerged in debauchery. Of cours, today Arabs are still depicted as debauchers but with emphasis on terrorism.

Turks will be surprised to see if they compare themselves to the Moslem world that they have contributed to the degeneration of women just like the west they love to join.

westerner;

the events in Trabzon and Istanbul were 'personal' stupid actions done by silly street hikers. How can you say that it is a reaction of a whole nation.

In Response To Kagan Akcay:

I am not manipulating anything. While on paper Turkey is supposed to have religious freedom, the practice is entirely different. Christians and other non-muslims are "allowed" to go to church and their respective places of worship, BUT they don't have full proprietary rights and the authorities give them a hard time when it comes to maintaining their buildings. It is not unusual for municipalities to just take the property and not give them full if any compensation. In addition, christians and non-muslims are continuously smeared by turkish media as traitors to Turkey. You seem to have forgotten that last year a Roman Catholic priest was killed in Trabzon and an Armenian Christian editor was killed in Istanbul. Three christian employees in a publishing house were tortured for three hours before they were killed just this past April.

Turkey has a long way to go before it should be considered to be on par with Europe.