Comments (348)

From another thread:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/saul_singer/2007/12/to_help_pakistan_fight_iran/all_comments.html

You know this discussion about the apparently growing alliance between India, the US and Israel is not really off topic. It is very central to the subject of this thread on what the future holds for Pakistan, given the heated Indo-Pakistani feud over Jammu and Kashmir.

The front page news yesterday was the first ever crossing of the $100 per barrel threshold for oil. This is a 100% price increase in just the last year, and this trend is likely to continue given the increasing demand for energy in China, India and the rest of the developing world. We have already passed “Peak Oil” production capability, so availability will decline in coming years as demand rapidly increases. This will make China, Russia and Iran natural allies as the following article notes:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/GF04Ad07.html

June 4, 2005

“The military implementation of the George W Bush administration's unilateralist foreign policy is creating monumental changes in the world's geostrategic alliances. The most significant of these changes is the formation of a new triangle comprised of China, Iran and Russia.

Growing ties between Moscow and Beijing in the past 18 months is an important geopolitical event that has gone practically unnoticed. China's premier, Wen Jiabao, visited Russia in September 2004. In October 2004, President Vladimir Putin visited China. During the October meeting, both China and Russia declared that Sino-Russian relations had reached "unparalleled heights". In addition to settling long-standing border issues, Moscow and Beijing agreed to hold joint military exercises in 2005. This marks the first large-scale military exercises between Russia and China since 1958.

The joint military exercises complement a rapidly growing arms trade between Moscow and Beijing. China is Russia's largest buyer of military equipment. In 2004, China was reported to have signed deals worth more than $2 billion for Russian arms. These included naval ships and submarines, missile systems and aircraft. According to the head of Russia's armed forces, Anatoliy Kvashnin, "our defense industrial complex is working for this country [China], supplying the latest models of arms and military equipment, which the Russian army does not have". Russia's relations with China are not limited to military trade. In the past five years, non-military trade between Russia and China has increased at an average annual rate of nearly 20%. Moscow and Beijing have targeted non-military trade to reach $60 billion by 2010, from $20 billion in 2004. One of the key components of commercial trade is Russian energy exports to China.

In early 2005, Moscow agreed to more than double electricity exports to China, to 800 million kilowatt hours (kWh), by 2006. Officials at Russia's electricity monopoly, Unified Energy Systems, are also courting Chinese investment in the development and renovation of Russia's electricity system. In October 2004, the China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) and Russia's Gazprom signed a series of agreements intended to study how Russia can best supply natural gas to China. At the same time, Russia signed specific agreements with China on oil exports.

Russia's oil shipments to China are slated to reach 10 million tons in 2005, increasing to 15 million tons in 2006. All of these shipments will be made by rail. However, this agreement was overshadowed by talks concerning the construction of an oil pipeline from Siberia to northern China. Russia has been pondering an oil pipeline to China for nearly 10 years. In 2002, plans for this pipeline received a boost when Moscow pledged to invest $2 billion in an oil pipeline running from the Siberian city of Angarsk to Daqing in northeastern China…”

The article goes on to say that at the request of Japan, who is willing to finance the entire $10 Billion plus cost of the pipeline, the pipeline will terminate at Russia's Pacific port of Nakhodka. The pipeline will still pass within 40 miles of the Russian border with China, so it will be a simple matter to add a spur directly into China.

So what we have brewing here is an alliance between China, Russia, Iran and possibly Japan. I can see Pakistan and Afghanistan joining this alliance. The question then is which way would Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and the other Gulf Oil States go? Iraq would undoubtedly go with their Shiite brethren in Iran. The presence of the Zionist occupiers of Palestine in the US_Israel_India axis of evil would probably drive the Suni Gulf Oil States to hold their nose and join the Russia_China_Iran axis.

So if I were you Dolivaw, I would reevaluate your growing ties with the US_Israel axis of evil. This would also tend to keep your large Muslim minority from attempting to secede. The future world superpowers will be in the Russia_China_Iran axis.

WITH RESPECT TO THE ASSASSINATION OF BENAZIR BHUTTO

This is a glimpse of the world’s future if the Zionist so called “State of Israel” and its number one ally the USA don’t wise up and vacate the Middle East.

That’s right Victoria, they can’t blame this one on the general Muslim population.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/yossi_melman/2007/12/bhutto_conspiracy_theories_wil/all_comments.html

We may find out, however, that the culprit is the Islamist fundamentalists (Al Qaeda and the Taliban) who are enabled by the foolish greed of the colonial USA and Israel.

Certainly Musharraf is one of those with the most to gain. He can now postpone elections indefinitely and hold onto his power, although he may have quite a revolt on his hands if he does so.

On the other hand, Bhutto was a strong ally of the US and an outspoken opponent of the Islamic fundamentalists. That is the kiss of death in this region of the world.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/28/world/asia/28pakistan.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

“In October, Ms. Bhutto survived another deadly suicide attack in the southern city of Karachi on the day she returned from years of self-imposed exile abroad to contest the parliamentary elections. Ms. Bhutto blamed extremist Islamic groups who she said wanted to take over the country for that attack, which narrowly missed her but killed 134 people. But she also complained that the government had taken insufficient steps to safeguard her parade…

She was openly critical of Mr. Musharraf’s ineffectiveness at dealing with Islamic militants and welcomed American involvement…

The assassination comes just days after Mr. Musharraf lifted a state of emergency in the country, which he had used to suspend the Constitution and arrest thousands of political opponents, and which he said he had imposed in part because of terrorist threats by extremists in Pakistan…”

So this is how my crystal ball has it. We just took another step along the path to WW III. The Islamist fundamentalists (Al Qaeda and the Taliban) hold all the cards. Musharraf may or may not be making a serious effort to rein them in. He may be playing live and let live as they build their strength in NW Pakistan and continue to weaken Afghanistan.

The Zionist invader in Palestine keeps the entire Middle East inflamed at both them and the USA for supporting them. Of course our preemptive attack on Iraq and continued occupation of Afghanistan just adds fuel to the flames.

China, India and Pakistan’s thirst for Middle East oil makes them natural allies of Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and the other Arabian Gulf oil states. They will be eager to supply whatever these countries need in the way of precision guided land Attack Cruise Missiles (LACM) like the US Tomahawk. These are precision, Global Position System (GPS) satellite guided, low flying cruise missiles that hug the earth and can be programmed to attack Israel from multiple directions. Israel will never know what hit them. These will not be like the thousands of ballistic Katyusha rockets fired from Southern Lebanon, which mostly land in the olive orchards and sage brush fields. These missiles will each have a high rise building or other high value target and street number programmed in them like our Tomahawk attacks on Baghdad in 1991 and 2003.

Our thirst for oil and 10 Trillion dollar national debt, with much of it owed to China, puts us in a very weak strategic position. China could bankrupt us at will by flooding the market with our worthless paper IOUs. That’s why the US dollar has lost ~33% of its value relative to the Euro, which is on its way to becoming the world standard currency. The US dollar will soon be known as the US Peso.

Israel only produces ~1% of its required oil from its own oil wells, and must import 99%, 90% from Russia. Russia is anything but a reliable ally and is known to have used its natural gas supplied to Eastern Europe as a political tool in the past.

So standby for action the so called Zionist “State of Israel” and its number one ally the USA. We live in interesting times.

Here is and interesting post by JDLEDELL @ December 27, 2007 7:26 AM from Yossi Melmans’s blog:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/yossi_melman/2007/12/hopeful_for_bethlehem/all_comments.html

Yossi - Pay no attention to the extremists on both sides that populate this blog. I am extremely pessimistic about the chances for peace. I have dozens of relatives living in West Bank settlements and I have been going to Israel, at least annually, for more than 40 years. I have seen it all, the good, the bad and the ugly of this situation.

It's easy to put the blame on the Palestinians for they have made numerous mistakes which have significantly aggravated the problem. Suicide bombers, rockets and armed resistance are just a few of the well known errors. However, Jewish mistakes are less well known. The settlement enterprise is the primary problem. My sister and her family were one of the first to move from Haifa to the West Bank after the 67 war. Settlements were planned with three express goals: first, dividing up the west bank with Jews so that a viable Palestinian state could never emerge. Second, to surround Jerusalem with Jewish settlements so that Palestinians could never use it as their capital (to that end, in 1967 Israel tripled the size of Jerusalem's historical dimensions). Third, to build on top of and control the West Bank aquifers.

I’m sure you are aware that Israel is not really trying to forge a peace agreement with the Palestinians. The settlement game is still being played. Some of my settler relatives are being recruited to seed a new settlement in Atarot, for a 11,000 person city on the doorstep of Ramallah. Others are being recruited to seed Giv’at Yael, a 20,000 person settlement near Bethlehem. Plans have been developed to build another new settlement, Shimo’n Hatsedeeq , near Abu Dis.

Eventually the world will catch on to Israel’s word games. Like Jerusalem's expanded boundries, Ma’ale Adumim's municipal boundries extend all the way to Jericho, empty land that can accomodate hundreds of thousands of Israelis. Ariel city boundries are proposed to expand to encompass all the small surrounding settlements that will make Ariel geographically 4 times larger, on the theory Ariel will be allowed to stay under a peace agreement. These kind of games will not lead to “land for peace” or “peace for peace”.

Look at the maps the settlers pass around, you will see four “reservations” for Palestinians with Israel taking all the rest, including the Jordan Valley. This is the game plan and I don’t think any Israeli politician is strong enough to stop it or slow it down. There is no such thing as the status quo, if peace is delayed Israeli settlement expansion will surely prevent the birth of a viable Palestinian state.

This is a recipe for disaster as internal and external Palestinians demand citizenship and a bi-national state. Yossi, our mutual dream of a Jewish homeland will disappear as it has so many times in the past few thousand years. I, for one, find that to be an unforgivable mistake. However, an even worse outcome is possible, the loss of the jewish soul. I have seen IDF and settler depravity first hand in the West Bank. I have two nephews serving in the IDF and they are thugs, who have already lost their souls to hatred, along with numerous of my relatives. I cherish my Jewish faith and the wisdom of the Torah but I see too many Israelis abandoning this wisdom in their greed and visceral hatred for “others”. If we lose our soul, land will not matter.

PRO-ISRAEL FORCES WANT TO RE-OPEN A PIPELINE FROM IRAQ TO HAIFA, ISRAEL

The fact that American-Israelis in our government are endeavoring to use the war on Iraq as a way for Israel to gain control over oil in the Middle East is rarely reported in the mainstream pro-Israel US media with your average American readership, however it has been reported in Jewish newspapers with Jewish readership and in Israeli papers.

A case in point is the fact that American-Israelis in our government want to "re-open" or re-instate, the pipeline that used to exist between Iraq and Palestine, which is now specifically Haifa, Israel. When Israel was created in 1948, that pipeline was re-directed by Iraq to Syria. Now pro-Israel forces are actively seeking to cut off the pipeline to Syria and re-direct it to Haifa, Israel. For more information on this, please do a Google-search using such keywords such as "Iraq oil pipeline to Haifa, Israel" and see what you come up with.

Just as Israel's connection to the war on Iraq has been kept out of the US mainstream media (as you may have noticed, Israel has not even been mentioned as one of our "allies" in the war on Iraq), this choice nugget of information with regards to Israel's ambition to get a basically free supply of Iraqi oil is also kept out of view for vast American public consumption.

Enough said my friend. I believe that we have exhausted this topic several times over.

Be well.

Rick

I like that you made it clear that every Israeli is a military target ("foot soldier"), even children. My friend, your military target is called terrorism by everyone else.

It is not stolen land. They bought their homes at first. The local populace didn’t like the new immigrants. They tried to eliminate the new immigrants. The new immigrants survived and erected borders. Nobody under the age of 74 who is Palestinian has any memory of living in Israel. For that reason alone, they should agree to live in the other 90% of the former British administered land. They would be residing a whole 20 miles from where their Great Grandparents lived.

Israel settled its 400,000 Jewish refugees who had to flee the Arab countries. The Arab countries didn’t settle its 400,000 refugees. It is the fault of the Arab countries that Palestinians still live in refugee camps. They are identical in language and religion to the surrounding populace. They are not like most immigrants—you can’t tell them apart from the surrounding populace. The goal of keeping them in refugee camps is to build sympathy for them in the multifaceted war to eliminate the Jews. This war includes terrorism, public relations, manipulation of oil money to get poor countries to side with the Arabs, and dare I say, writers fluent in English with views like yours to counter rational arguments on web posts.

And even if you disagree with the above, I still believe national movements or injustices should not be fought by trying to kill children. Poll after poll of Palestinians shows their support for such actions. No such polls exist among the Israelis, who don’t celebrate when an Arab child is killed while playing next to a missile launcher. It’s a war crime to launch missiles onto civilians without any military target whatsoever. It’s a war crime to arm and use these weapons where civilians live.

Terrorism is the enemy. If we reward the Palestinians for using terrorism, then many more terrorists around the world will learn that terrorism pays off. We will all suffer. If we reward Hamas for their news reporters’ fear of death, we will also suffer.

I encourage anyone to read the last few posts in the argument Rick and I are having. Rick supports Hamas and thinks the American military is guilty of war crimes in Iraq. One of the most common “war crimes” we commit is the murder of noncombatants who happen to live where terrorists hide. Rick doesn’t feel it’s enough to try to avoid civilian casualties, as is the case with the militaries of the US and Israel. Rick is angrier at the militaries of the US and Israel than he is at Hamas. My Christmas post at 11:59 lists the hideous things about Hamas that I managed to put together in only 30 minutes. There are probably a lot more heinous things about Hamas that I didn’t cover. Rick views Hamas as moral compared to Israel.

Alan,

You say:

“I believe terrorism is targeting innocent civilians, even children, without a military objective.”

That is the whole point. There are no innocent civilians in the so called “State of Israel”. They are all living on stolen land from which they have driven the rightful owners into refugee camps in unimaginably horrid living conditions. Thus they are all foot soldiers in this struggle to the death. It matters not whether they or their fathers or their grandfathers stole the land. They all live on stolen land and are all valid military targets.

To see this, imagine that an armed stranger enters your home and forces you and yours out into the cold. Further assume that the LA police force will do nothing about it for ethnic reasons. Would you consider that you have the right to take up arms and take back your home?

Rick

You said my list about Hamas shows them to be “atrocious” . Thanks.

I believe terrorism is targeting innocent civilians, even children, without a military objective. You believe terrorism is Israel “stealing the land”. Sorry, but this wasn’t theft, and even if it was, it ain’t terrorism. Israelis defended themselves when they were attacked by several Arab countries. The Arabs lost, should be happy with the 90% of the land they occupy that was formerly administered by the British and should dela with it, since probably fewer than 5% of them have any memory of living in Israel.

By your reasoning, the entire US, Canada, and Australia must be terrorists for living on stolen land. At least the Israelis bought the land when they arrived. Maybe the Arabs shouldn’t have tried to eliminate them.

You beleive that every Jew in Israel is a War Criminal for living on stolen land. Even though over 80% of that land was administered by the Ottomans or Brits for 500 years. You feel the Palestinians are justified to target innocent Jewish civilians because those civilians are “zionist war criminals”.

I believe in the Road Map for Peace, even though it’s supported by the UN, EU and Russia—not exactly Jew lovers. The US also backs the Road Map, but you feel the US military is a terrorist entity because of its actions in Iraq.

I believe terrorism itself is the enemy. You believe that any country defending itself from terrorism has no right to go after the terrorists if they hide behind innocent civilians. You blame the US or Israel for killing noncombatants when going after terrorists whereas I blame the terrorists for operating from within civilian areas. I say don’t reward terrorism no matter what the justification is, because it would teach the world that terrorism pays off. We would all suffer for a long time. Many more people will die than have died to date because bombs get smaller and more powerful.

You want to reward terrorism with a political victory. I say ostracize any country supporting the targeting of civilians no matter the justification.

Since you always discuss water, I would like you to find one piece of evidence showing that the West Bank ever had more water than Israel provides now. If the current water agreement is unfair, I said I would back the Palestinians as soon as they abandon terrorism. As for Arafat signing the interim agreement in 1995, the link that you request is already on this website.

For anyone reading out there, check out my last post on Hamas. Rick, you actually believe Israel is more morally corrupt than Hamas. Classic. Is the US military more corrupt than Hamas becuase it kills noncombatant civilians in Iraq? Is Iran corrupt in providing Hezbollah and Hamas with crude missiles that are exclusively made to kill civilians and have no military value whatsoever?

Alan,

“I’m impressed enough to quote you by saying “Codswallop.”

Isn’t that a satisfying swear word. I must admit that I borrowed it from my friend DuckPhup from another board.

“The road map to peace says the violence stops before negotiation starts.”

That is the root of our friendly disagreement. I don’t accept the Road Map to nowhere any more than do the true Palestinian representatives, Hamas. The Roadmap calls for the establishment of the “State of Israel” in its pre-1967 borders, which would be a horrific injustice to the Palestinian people.

“Also, Arafat himself signed the current water agreement in 1995, which provides more water than Jordan ever supplied when it was in control of the same region.”

Please provide a reference to support this or stop making this ridiculous claim.

“In short, we both agree that killing innocent bystanders is horrendous—our difference lies in the fact that I blame the terrorists for operating among civilians whereas you blame the US and Israeli militaries. That being said, you might want to stop writing that I don’t care about innocent bystanders being killed.”

I respectfully disagree. I think that the difference is in our definition of terrorist. I say the terrorists are the users of overwhelming military might to overthrow sovereign governments and chase innocent people from their homes and land, by bombing the victim population centers with 500 lb or 1 ton bombs from thousands of feet.

I will stop saying that you don’t care about innocent bystanders being killed when you stop supporting the Zionist war criminal.

“I asked you in a previous post why there are no Palestinian equivalents to the Israeli Human Rights group B’Tselem. You said, “…of course not. The Palestinians only have time to defend themselves from the onslaught of their terrorist neighbor who is intent on bulldozing their homes and assassinating their leadership…” Sorry but I have to say it’s more likely that Hamas wouldn’t allow this than the alternative explanation, namely, that 10 writers can’t find a typewriter because they are too busy fighting the Jews.”

I think that to compare life in Gaza to life in Israel is absurd. To think that the Gazans have time to worry about whether their freedom fighters are playing fair is beyond absurd when they are being denied food, water and electricity and their children are being slaughtered in a 17 to 1 ratio to the Zionists.

Your list of 15 items is indeed atrocious, and pales only in comparison to the actions of the Zionist invaders and war criminals that started the conflict in the first place, terrorized an entire population by chasing them from their ancestral home of thousands of years and engage in slow genocide by depriving them of their basic human rights and dignity and the most basic human sustenance such as water.

How can you support such a terrorist entity? Have you no shame?

Rick

Well written and not a personal attack. I’m impressed enough to quote you by saying “Codswallop.”

If Israel has been unfair with water, they need to address that issue the minute after the Palestinians say they will stop negotiating with suicide bombs. The road map to peace says the violence stops before negotiation starts. I will personally support the Palestinians in the West Bank with water equality when that happens. But for anyone out there reading this, please note that the water that Israeli Arabs can use is the same as Israeli Jews. Also, Arafat himself signed the current water agreement in 1995, which provides more water than Jordan ever supplied when it was in control of the same region.

As for the “Zionist war criminals” killing innocent Palestinian children, I’ll stick with my previous argument. The tough guys who launch missiles toward Israeli civilian centers should not be driving around with machine guns or missiles in neighborhoods filled with children. We both know that Israel goes after those missiles and does a good job avoiding civilians whenever possible. Rick, I know that you believe that civilian casualties Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon are “war crimes”. But you’re also on record as saying that the US Military in Iraq is guilty of committing “war crimes” like this. In both cases, I’ll say that it’s obvious that both of these militaries try hard not to kill civilians and thus are almost always not guilty of war crimes. To me, the responsibility lies with the terrorists and militants who ply their trade from within civilian population centers for the principle reason that they feel more protected in these areas because they know the US or Israeli military tries not to kill innocent bystanders.

I will quote you again: “Your constant whining that suicide bombers kill women and children, a tiny fraction of the women and children slaughtered by the Zionist war criminal, is disgusting in the extreme.” I believe that murdering children on a bus is worse than children getting killed because a missile launcher is intentionally hiding his missiles in civilian areas. I also believe that the principle problem with the Palestinians is that they overwhelmingly support killing civilians, even children, in poll after poll. You count the numbers of children to support your argument. I blame those numbers on the terrorists in the West Bank (and in Iraq), not on the US or Israeli militaries that try hard not to kill innocent bystanders. In short, we both agree that killing innocent bystanders is horrendous—our difference lies in the fact that I blame the terrorists for operating among civilians whereas you blame the US and Israeli militaries. That being said, you might want to stop writing that I don’t care about innocent bystanders being killed.

I asked you in a previous post why there are no Palestinian equivalents to the Israeli Human Rights group B’Tselem. You said, “…of course not. The Palestinians only have time to defend themselves from the onslaught of their terrorist neighbor who is intent on bulldozing their homes and assassinating their leadership…” Sorry but I have to say it’s more likely that Hamas wouldn’t allow this than the alternative explanation, namely, that 10 writers can’t find a typewriter because they are too busy fighting the Jews.

Since you like numbered lists, I will now summarize atrocious actions and war crimes committed by the nice folks at Hamas, who were elected by the Palestinians even though they glorify “martyrs” who have killed children. And espouse racist drivel such as “Jews started WW1 and WW2”, which is in their charter. I won’t delve into Mickey Mouse programs where the Jew tortures and murders Mickey. Who votes for guys like this?

Here’s a list about Hamas to compare to your list about Israel

1) No tolerance for any opinion that criticizes Hamas. Death to those who do.

2) No freedom of press. Journalists and editors fear death

3) Not much in the way of gay rights.

4) Christians in Gaza live in fear for their lives.

5) Article 22 of the Hamas Charter: Jews started WW1 and WWII

6) Article 7: “…The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).”

7) Article 24: “The Islamic Resistance Movement does not allow slandering or speaking ill of individuals or groups, for the believer does not indulge in such malpractices.”

8) Article 28: “Zionism… relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.”

9) Article 28, again: “Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep." Not much tolerance for other religions.

10) Let’s move on to war crimes: I only had time to check one website, I’m sure there are others. You might check out this link from Human Rights Watch: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/06/13/isrlpa16156.htm

11) Human Rights Violation: Tolerates launching missiles from civilian areas to cities in Israel with no military target intended.

12) Human Rights Violation: Kills sick people in Hospitals (see the link above)

13) Human Rights Violation: Executes a cook for the former prime minister by tying his hands and feet together and throwing him off a building. (nice)

14) Human Rights Violation: Does not allow its captive Israeli soldier to meet with the Red Cross

15) Human Rights Violation: A quote from the link above: “Hamas military forces have summarily executed captives, killed people not involved in hostilities, and engaged in gun battles… inside and near Palestinian hospitals.”

It’s sad that you are so anti-Zionist (anti-Jewish?) that you would support these guys or the population that elected them.

Alan,

You seem to have a very high opinion of yourself and what a great job you are doing of convincing your audience that your arguments and conclusions are valid.

I think that nothing could be further from the truth. You have not been able to refute the following facts:

1. The Zionist invader is occupying stolen land that it acquired by force, with an assist from the world’s superpowers, and so has no grounds for complaint when it is attacked in return by the displaced native population.

2. Israel continues to increase its illegal acquisition of Palestinian land in the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza. It has withdrawn from Gaza (for the moment) but continues to suppress the economy and limit access to vital resources such as water, fuel and electricity.

3. Israel's policy regarding water supply in the West Bank is illegal and discriminates on racial grounds. It flagrantly breaches international law which requires Israel to ensure proper living conditions for the occupied population and to respect the Palestinians' human rights, including the right to receive a sufficient quantity of water to meet their basic needs.”

4. Israel is violating the international law on water since the water resources in the Occupied Territories were integrated into the legal and bureaucratic system of Israel, severely limiting the ability of Palestinians to develop those resources…

5. Israel’s use of groundwater of the Occupied Territories in the settlements is a breach of article 55 of the Hague Regulations.

6. Israel is in breach of Article 27 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 which prohibits an occupying state from discriminating between residents of occupied territory; since the quantity of water supplied to the settlements is vastly larger than that which is supplied to the Palestinians.

7. Israel is in breach of article 6 of the UN Convention on the Law of the Non-Navigational Uses of International Watercourses. Examination of the current division of water between Israel and the Palestinians leads to the conclusion that this division violates Palestinian rights and contravenes international water law.

8. Even Israel’s own human rights organization considers them to be racist, illegal and “discriminates on racial grounds”.

9. Israel hogs 80% of the regions water supply to keep their swimming pools full and lawns green, while leaving the Palestinians less than half the amount considered necessary of minimum health requirements by the WHO and USAID organizations.

10. The Zionist war criminals have killed more than 6 times the number of Palestinian civilians, as Palestinians have killed Israeli civilians.

11. The Zionist war criminals have killed more than 17 times the number of Palestinian children, as Palestinians have killed Israeli children.

12. Your repeated excuses that the Zionists drop leaflets to warn civilian population centers that are about to be bombed back to the stone ages, and apologizes after the fact, are disgusting in the extreme.

13. Your constant whining that suicide bombers kill women and children, a tiny fraction of the women and children slaughtered by the Zionist war criminal, is disgusting in the extreme.

Alan, why do you continue to support the bad guys? Have you no shame?

I never knew I could have such a fun past-time. Thanks for giving me mild mental exercise. I say mild because most smart folks who read our posts and haven’t made up their mind would agree with me.

Alan (from a previous post) “You’ve said every Israeli is responsible for their government’s actions and you’ve never stated that Palestinian support of terrorism is horrendous.”
Rick’s Response: “ Palestinians don’t support terrorism of course. It is not terrorism to fight for your basic human rights and dignity, to kick the racist Zionist invaders and land/water thieves from your home.”
My current reply: We both know that Palestinians support racism because of multiple polls. Here’s a quote from the Pew Global Website: “In Lebanon, for example, just 34% of Muslims say suicide bombings in the defense of Islam are often or sometimes justified; in 2002, 74% expressed this view. However, Palestinians stand out for their broad acceptance of suicide bombing. Seven-in-ten-Palestinians say this tactic is at least sometimes justified.”
The Link: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=257
It is confirmed at this link as well: Check out question 18:
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=28550
I’m not saying the Palestinians should be judged for fighting to dislodge the Jews from Israel. But they should be judged for wholeheartedly supporting the murder of Jewish children and celebrating the “martyrs” who commit such atrocities. People who wish to achieve a political gain should not be rewarded for such sentiment. You can probably find examples of Israeli atrocities. But they are few and far between and the population doesn’t celebrate the atrocities. When they get their Martin Luther King, I’ll support them.
Rick, you posted a great quote here: “We all feel much better because the Zionist terrorists apologize while they gleefully slaughter hundreds of innocent Palestinian women and children.” Yeah, dude, the Jews gleefully slaughter hundreds of innocent Palestinian women and children. You and I know this isn’t true and I suggest anyone ask an Israeli that they meet if it’s possible. As for the Harper’s article, I don’t believe the writer. But let’s pretend it’s true. You managed to find 8 bad guys with guns. Even US soldiers commit atrocities. It’s not the same as the 70% of Palestinians who approve of suicide bombings. Find a poll of Israelis who support murdering children. You can’t.
Regarding my surfer quote. I apologize if I misquoted you. I thought you said it’s fair game, an expression that I don’t use too often. It may have been another writer. But the “gleeful slaughter” part of your argument gives me back my street cred.
Alan to Rick in the last post: “To repeat an earlier point, if the Palestinians drop terrorism and institutionalized racism and terrorism, I would support them in any injustices they face.”
Rick’s Response: “Codswallop! The whole world knows that the Palestinian freedom fighters are only defending themselves with sticks and stones from the world’s foremost terrorist super powers, the USA and Israel who are practicing slow genocide upon them by withholding their water supplies.”
My current response: Blowing up buses and then celebrating the murderers isn’t sticks and stones. As for your false genocide claims regarding water, I stick with my earlier replies. Also, my I point out to any American lurkers that the US is, in Rick’s opinion, a terrorist superpower.
Rick, I don’t think you’re from Virginia. I never met anyone from that state that uses the term “Codswallop”. Are you from the Hamas disinformation center or the Hizbollah Center of Beirut?
I won’t answer the quote from Btselem. If you can’t see the difference, don’t worry. Others can.

Alan,

You fail History 101 again my friend.

You say:

“You’ve said every Israeli is responsible for their government’s actions and you’ve never stated that Palestinian support of terrorism is horrendous.”

Palestinians don’t support terrorism of course. It is not terrorism to fight for your basic human rights and dignity, to kick the racist Zionist invaders and land/water thieves from your home.

You say:

“You’ve said that a 16 year old surfer in Tel Aviv is fair game for terrorism regardless of whether his or her great-grandparents stole a Palestinian home.”

Sorry Buddy, there you go again, lying again, destroying your dwindling credibility once again.

Here is what I said in response to your ridiculous claim that the Jews may have bought 95% of their land:

You said:

“By the way, I never said the Jews bought 95% of the land. I was just asking you for argument’s sake if you would change your opinion if I could prove this fact to you. Interesting that you wouldn’t answer that question.”

It is pretty hard to take such a question seriously when we know that 83.6% of the land actually belongs to the Palestinians and only 16.4% belongs to the Zionists. But if 95% of the Zionists had actually purchased their homes and land like normal people, then no one would have a reason to consider them Zionist invaders and land thieves. Your hypothetical 16 year old girl surfing on the beach in Tel Aviv would then be no different than a 16 year old girl surfing on the beach in the French Riviera, and would not have a care in the world.

However, since this is clearly not the case, if this hypothetical 16 year old girl surfing in Tel Aviv happens to encounter a randomly fired Katyusha rocket, or suicide bomber; then that is a very unfortunate incident, for which we can thank the Zionist invaders and land thieves who occupy 80.4% of the so called “State of Israel”.

So do you get it yet? I didn’t say that it was OK to target the 16 year old girl, but if she was accidentally hit by a Katyusha rocket or suicide bomber, who mistook her for one of the terrorist Zionist invaders and land/water thieves who occupy 80.4% of the so called “State of Israel”, then that is a very unfortunate incident, for which we can thank the Zionist invaders and land thieves who occupy 80.4% of the so called “State of Israel”.

Now, do you get it yet? Or will I get this same disingenuous charge again on your next post? You know that your motives and methods are transparent to the lurkers out there who you mistakenly believe are taking your bigoted side in this issue and you continue to lose credibility the more that you dissemble and obfuscate.

You said”

“In this context especially, when you write that “B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are RACIST WAR CRIMINALS”, it necessitates a quote that says exactly that. A better quote would have been that B’tselem considers the water policy to be unethical because it discriminates on racial grounds and is illegal. That’s not the same as “Israelis are racist war criminals”. You would fail History 101 for your deliberate attempt to confuse or distort the truth.”

Are you serious? Here are the words again:

“Israel's policy regarding water supply in the West Bank is illegal and discriminates on racial grounds. It flagrantly breaches international law which requires Israel to ensure proper living conditions for the local population and to respect the Palestinians' human rights, including the right to receive a sufficient quantity of water to meet their basic needs.”

What part of “discriminates on racial grounds” and “flagrantly breaches international law” don’t you understand?

That sounds like racist war criminals to me.

Do you get it yet? I didn’t think so.

Alan.

Your posts become more confused and your credibility continues to evaporate the more desperately you try to defend the indefensible terrorist Zionist war criminal regime.

We all feel much better because the Zionist terrorists apologize while they gleefully slaughter hundreds of innocent Palestinian women and children.

Fortunately as Victoria reports above, the world has had its fill of the Zionist terrorists; even young American Jews have had enough and say be gone.

You ask if there are human rights organizations in Palestine; of course not. The Palestinians only have time to defend themselves from the onslaught of their terrorist neighbor who is intent on bulldozing their homes and assassinating their leadership by indiscriminately firing rockets and dropping 500 lb bombs in populous areas from the safety of US provided warplanes and helicopters form thousands of feet above.

You say:

“To repeat an earlier point, if the Palestinians drop terrorism and institutionalized racism and terrorism, I would support them in any injustices they face.”

Codswallop! The whole world knows that the Palestinian freedom fighters are only defending themselves with sticks and stones from the world’s foremost terrorist super powers, the USA and Israel who are practicing slow genocide upon them by withholding their water supplies. And you gleefully support the racist war criminals as defined by their own human rights organization.

You say:

“Israel makes every effort not to kill innocent bystanders.”

And:

“The Israelis don’t celebrate when a Palestinian child is caught in the crossfire.”

Is this your idea of a cross fire:

“Hunting Children for Sport

In a 2001 issue of Harper's Magazine [Chris Hedges, A Gaza Diary , Harper's Magazine, October 200], veteran American journalist Chris Hedges exposed how Israeli troops in Gaza systematically curse and provoke Palestinian children playing in the dunes of southern Gaza. Then, when the boys finally get irritated enough and start throwing stones, the soldiers premeditatedly respond with live ammunition from rifles fitted with silencers. “Later,” writes Hedges, “in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos.” He then concludes, “Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered, […] but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.”

Alan, wake up my friend you are supporting the bad guys.

Rick:

You’ve said every Israeli is responsible for their government’s actions and you’ve never stated that Palestinian support of terrorism is horrendous. You’ve said that a 16 year old surfer in Tel Aviv is fair game for terrorism regardless of whether his or her great-grandparents stole a Palestinian home. In this context especially, when you write that “B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are RACIST WAR CRIMINALS”, it necessitates a quote that says exactly that. A better quote would have been that B’tselem considers the water policy to be unethical because it discriminates on racial grounds and is illegal. That’s not the same as “Israelis are racist war criminals”. You would fail History 101 for your deliberate attempt to confuse or distort the truth.

But this is nothing new for you. You are well versed in obscure 80 year old historical documents, know the details about Zionists leaders’ personal lives 100 years ago and understand intricacies of water rights issues. Yet somehow you didn’t pick up on the fact that Arabs vote in Israel. I believe that anyone who is as well versed in the obscure issues of that region as you would HAVE to know that Israeli Arabs vote. This last statement leads me to believe that you deliberately distort the truth but want to be seen as reasonable, so you apologize when you are caught.

To repeat an earlier point, if the Palestinians drop terrorism and institutionalized racism and terrorism, I would support them in any injustices they face. The biggest differences in our argument is that I believe in the Road Map to peace and you don’t. I also believe that if you reward terrorism, the entire world will pay for that with more terrorism. Any injustice that is being fought against by INTENTIONALLY killing innocent children should not be addressed while that tactic is being used.

As for the number of innocent Palestinians killed, it is a tragedy. But I would blame the missile launchers and bomb makers for doing these things from populated areas. There’s a war crime for you. Since Hamas is in charge, and the Palestinians voted for them, does this make every Palestinian a “racist war criminal”? Of course not.

Israel makes every effort not to kill innocent bystanders. Of course, they screw up but this is no different with any army operating against civilians. But since you feel the US military is just as guilty in Iraq as Israel is in Gaza or the West Bank, I can’t argue you on this point. I think you are wrong, but I can’t prove to you that killing non-combatants isn’t horrendous. But blame the militants and terrorists for launching missiles and building their bombs in crowded areas as a means to protect themselves.

There is a difference between Israel and the Palestinians that you don’t consider. We both know that the Palestinians honor “martyrs” and their families for killing innocent Jewish children. The Israelis don’t celebrate when a Palestinian child caught in the crossfire. Just like the US doesn’t celebrate when an Iraqi child is killed with an errant bomb. Is every civilian in the US fair game for terrorism because our military has killed so many innocent people in Iraq?

By the way, you never answered my question at the end of my December 5:56 PM post: “Rick, do you think there are Palestinian human rights groups watching over the actions of Hamas? A rhetorical question, because in Gaza, one is not allowed to have an opinion different from the Government’s. The penalty is death. You’re supporting the bad guys, Rick.”

im reposting this-

because the ideology of the zionists is not resonating with the younger generation in america-
depsite efforts by haters like the rabbi, his twice weekly show- and the jewish task force and its abundant propoganda-

its important for reason to prevail-
this shows reason rearing its head on both sides of the arab/israeli debate-

THIS WEEK AT WAR WILL DOBSON FOREIGN POLICY MAGAZINE-
transcript of show

FOREMAN: Wow. Just amazing. Dear Osama, we're breaking up. Another one of your headlines. What does that mean?

DOBSON: That's right. In September, a very prominent radical cleric in Saudi Arabia denounced Osama Bin Laden. This is important because this is a man who once mentored Osama Bin Laden. So this is a very important shift because it suggests that there's real fissures, differences of opinion even in the corners of radical Islam and a place like Saudi Arabia.

FOREMAN: When you look at things like the awakening movement in Iraq, do you see that as being related to this?

DOBSON: Well, it's clear right now that there is a war within Islam of ideas going on right now. And so this, we may look back at this as being a turning point where people began to ask questions. And this is important because this is a real blow to Osama Bin Laden's ideology and following.
***************************************
FOREMAN: A very controversial idea is your next headline here. AMERICAN JEWS TURN AWAY FROM ISRAEL. What do you mean?

DOBSON: Well, as we know, the U.S. foreign policy is made up by many different lobbies and one of them that's often credited that's being particularly powerful is the Israel lobby. Well, right now in America, a new study that really was just completely overlooked, it appears that though Americans, young American Jews, are beginning to feel less of an attachment to Israel.

In a survey that was done, young American Jews, 48% under 35 said they would not consider it a personal tragedy if Israel was destroyed. That's compared to 77% of those 65 and older. Likewise, 54% of young American Jews said that they felt no - they were even uncomfortable with the notion of a Jewish state compared again to 81% of those 65 or older. So what's clearly there is a shift, a generational shift going on in the Jewish community in America today.

FOREMAN: Well, that must cause enormous angst among the older Jewish community. So many of whom have memories of World War II and who feel like Israel was so hard-won to the young people saying you must understand your heritage.

DOBSON: That's exactly right. I mean, clearly what we're seeing and the authors of the report said one, this is a by-product of intermarriage between faiths. People are feeling less of an attachment to the homeland. And it's also a little bit of distance from history. They don't remember the holocaust as being the personal experience that their grandparents do. And so clearly, it's causing a weakening among Jews in America of seeing their jewishness as a collective identity.

INTERESTING, YES?

this guy has a show on queens public tv every week-
hes known as the racist rabbi mordechai friedman-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtPnu0XX1GA

can you imagine if a muslim, or an african american said such things in public?

they would be ridden out on a rail- yet this fellow has access to spout the most frothing virulent hatred-

why? hes pro-israeli

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=jtf.org

Alan,

Here is a good site for nice people like yourself who like to root for the good guys. Notice that the Zionist terrorist war criminals have killed more than 6 times the number of Palestinian citizens as Palestinians have killed Israeli civilians. The Zionist war criminals have killed more than 17 times the number of Palestinian children as Palestinians have killed Israeli children. Alan, it is you who are supporting the bad guys.

Notice that this information was also provided by the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem.

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/pubs/20001127fs.html

Fact Sheet Number 1: Casualties in Palestine and Israel from the First Intifada until October 30, 2000

Total casualties in the Occupied Territories and Israel from December 9, 1987 to September 30, 2000:

Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli forces - 1,407
Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli civilians - 140
Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian civilians - 270
Members of the Israeli forces killed by Palestinian civilians - 135

Israeli and Palestinian minors killed from December 9, 1987 to September 30, 2000:

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli forces in the Occupied Territories - 285
Palestinian minors killed by Israeli civilians in the Occupied Territories - 23
Israeli minors killed by Palestinians in the Occupied Territories - 4
Israeli minors killed by Palestinian civilians in Israel - 14

Killings by Israeli undercover units in the Occupied Territories (including East Jerusalem) from December 9, 1987 to September 30, 2000:

Palestinians - 166
Israeli civilians - 1
Members of the Israeli forces - 4

Adapted from B’Tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

Alan:

What planet are you from?

“My driving point in all of these letters has been that the principle enemy the world needs to fight is terrorism, because bombs become more advanced and smaller. The world should fight together and ostracize all countries that consider blowing up school buses as an acceptable means of political gain. No matter what the injustice is in the first place. If the Palestinians give up terrorism and legitimately protest unfair Israeli policies, the world will get behind the Palestinians.”

And:

“Of the two, it seems logical to choose the Road Map’s solution and not to discuss this until terrorism is abandoned.”

And:

“You’re supporting the bad guys, Rick.”

Do you really think that Martin Luther King type peaceful protest would have the slightest impact on the brutal, racist, Zionist regime, which cares about nothing but stealing land and water from the helpless Palestinian people?

The Road Map envisions the “State of Israel” surviving in its pre-1967 boundaries, which will never happen.

You are supporting the bad guys, Allen. The Zionist invaders, land thieves and water thieves are the bad guys. Abbas and the PLA are the bad guys. The elected government of Hamas represents the Palestinian people, not the appeaser and collaborator Abbas.

Rick

Here’s your original quote: “What do you think of the B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are racist war criminals for….”

Btselem doesn’t use the term “racist war criminals”. Your sentence above is exposed for using that term. It isn’t in the website. Were you hoping I wouldn’t find the site?

As for me lying: Here is the quote from the “Jewish Propaganda Website” as you might call the Jewish Virtual Library: “Israel has fulfilled all of her obligations under the Interim Agreement. The water quota agreed upon, and more, is being supplied. Jurisdiction over water was transferred completely and on time, and Israel approved the additional digging of wells. Israel and the PA carry out joint patrols to locate cases of water theft and other water-related problems.”

The link, my friend:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html#g

The injustice regarding water could be true. If so, Arafat shouldn’t have signed the interim agreement. Israel should change its allocations. But as the Road Map to Peace suggests, the issue should not be considered until the Palestinians stop honoring “martyrs” who have killed school children. They should also stop the Hamas PBS style Mickey Mouse programs that vilify Jews. Terrorism, no matter the justification, should never be rewarded or all of our lives will become more unpleasant. When the Palestinians protest with Ghandi-like principles (or MLK, for an American reference), I’ll be there for them.

Alan:

“Can you please copy and paste a link to the part about the Israelis being “racist war criminals”? I think you were lying about this, so prove me wrong. I believe your quote was “What do you think of the B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are racist war criminals for….”

Here it is pal. How is my credibility now? I hate to say it, but I'm afraid that yours is in tatters. The quoted paragraph is at the bottom of the page.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Water/Without_Running_Water.asp

“Israel's policy regarding water supply in the West Bank is illegal and discriminates on racial grounds. It flagrantly breaches international law which requires Israel to ensure proper living conditions for the local population and to respect the Palestinians' human rights, including the right to receive a sufficient quantity of water to meet their basic needs.”

See, even Israel’s own human rights organization considers them to be racist, illegal and “discriminates on racial grounds”.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More from B’Tselem on International Law relative to water rights and the Israeli war criminals:

http://www.btselem.org/english/Water/International_Law.asp

International law on water

In examining international law, it is necessary to distinguish between Israel's obligations as an occupying state to the population under its control on one hand, and the use of water sources shared by Israel and the Palestinians, which are considered international waters, on the other.

A. Administration of the water sector in occupied territory

1. Prohibition on altering legislation

Article 43 of the 1907 Hague Regulations prohibits an occupying state from changing the legislation in effect prior to occupation. The military orders that Israel issued regarding the water resources and the supply of water in the Occupied Territories significantly changed the legal and institutional structure of the water sector. The water resources in the Occupied Territories were integrated into the legal and bureaucratic system of Israel, severely limiting the ability of Palestinians to develop those resources.

2. Illegal utilization of water resources

Article 55 of the Hague Regulations limits the right of occupying states to utilize the water sources of occupied territory. The use is limited to military needs and may not exceed past use. Use of groundwater of the Occupied Territories in the settlements does not meet these criteria and therefore breaches article 55.

3. Discrimination between Palestinians and Israeli Settlers

Article 27 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 prohibits an occupying state from discriminating between residents of occupied territory. The quantity of water supplied to the settlements is vastly larger than that which is supplied to the Palestinians. Similarly, the regularity of supply is much greater in the settlements. This discrimination is especially blatant during the summer months when the supply to Palestinians in some areas of the West Bank is reduced in order to meet the increased demand for water in the settlements receiving their water from the same pipelines.

B. Utilization of shared international water sources

Under international law, the main principle for division of shared water between states is the principle of equitable and reasonable use. This principle is based on the limited-sovereignty doctrine, which provides that, because all parts of the drainage basins of watercourses are hydrologically interdependent, states are not allowed to utilize water located in their territory as they wish, but must take into account the other states that share the resource.

This principle does not state a precise formula quantifying the rights of each state sharing an international watercourse. Rather, it lists the factors to be considered in negotiations between the states to determine the division. Article 6 of the UN Convention on the Law of the Non-Navigational Uses of International Watercourses enumerates seven of these factors:

1. The natural features of the shared watercourse (geographic, climatic, hydrologic, and the like);

2. The social and economic needs of the watercourse states;

3. The population dependent on the watercourse in each watercourse state;

4. The effects of the use of the watercourses in one watercourse state on other watercourse states;

5. Existing and potential uses of the watercourse;

Conservation, protection, and development of the water resources of the watercourse and the costs of measures taken to that effect;

The availability of alternatives to a particular planned or existing use.

Taking into account the components of the principle of equitable and reasonable use, examination of the current division of water between Israel and the Palestinians leads to the conclusion that this division violates Palestinian rights and contravenes international water law.

Alan,

At this site:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/america/2007/12/israeli_soldiers_us_sderot_terrorism.html#more

On December 21 @ 9:59 AM you said:

“…you should note that in 1995 Arafat and Rabin agreed to something called the interim agreement. Here's another quote: "Israel has fulfilled all of her obligations under the Interim Agreement. The water quota agreed upon, and more, is being supplied.”

And you supplied this link to your favorite propaganda site, the Jewish Virtual Library to prove your point:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/interim.html

Unfortunately the article at this link says nothing about a water quota, let alone that Israel has fulfilled her obligations or that the agreed upon quota is being provided. Where did that nugget come from? Please provide a link that supports it if you want to continue to pretend that you have one iota of credibility. I think that you are lying about it.

Rick

The Btselem site shows that the current agreement signed by Yassir Arafat is unfair. I don’t know about the organization, but it seems legitimate. Can you please copy and paste a link to the part about the Israelis being “racist war criminals”? I think you were lying about this, so prove me wrong. I believe your quote was “What do you think of the B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are racist war criminals for….”

For the topic of asymmetric warfare being legitimate: I think there’s a difference between trying to sneak attack soldiers vs. celebrating when a bus full of school children blows up. The fact that the Palestinians attack Israeli soldiers is not nearly as heinous as the fact that they wholeheartedly support terrorism in poll after poll.

My driving point in all of these letters has been that the principle enemy the world needs to fight is terrorism, because bombs become more advanced and smaller. The world should fight together and ostracize all countries that consider blowing up school buses as an acceptable means of political gain. No matter what the injustice is in the first place. If the Palestinians give up terrorism and legitimately protest unfair Israeli policies, the world will get behind the Palestinians.

If you ever get to an impasse in your argument, it is a useful tactic to bring up an unrelated issue. You did this in your most recent post with the subject of Lebanon. Cute and childish technique, as is the name calling.

But since you did bring up Lebanon, I addressed this in earlier posts which you read, but I will post the basics for any lurkers. The Israelis dropped notifications before bombing so the residents would leave. The Israelis dropped 30,000 bombs on Lebanon and killed under 1000 people. That’s probably a better ratio of avoiding civilian casualties than the US pulls off in Iraq. It is horrible that innocent Lebanese were killed, but I blame Hezbollah for firing 5000 Iranian missiles aimed at Israeli cities. Let me go on record as saying that you already stated before that you feel the US is guilty of committing similar actions in Iraq (i.e. unintentional killing of noncombatants). I support our troops in Iraq and know that they make every effort not to kill civilians. Same with the Israelis.

Keep calling me racist. Nearly anyone reading these posts would say that I’m not. But your name calling takes away your credibility, which is an enjoyable new hobby of mine.

Rick, do you think there are Palestinian human rights groups watching over the actions of Hamas? A rhetorical question, because in Gaza, one is not allowed to have an opinion different from the Government’s. The penalty is death. You’re supporting the bad guys, Rick.

Alan:

“If the water agreement that Arafat signed in 1995 is unfair, then I agree with you that water policy should be changed.”

You just can’t bring yourself to state unequivocally that it is an unfair policy can you? That is because you are the racist anti-Semite that you hypocritically accuse others of being.

What do you think of the B’Tselem charges that the Israelis are racist war criminals for violating international law with respect to an occupied people’s water rights as I have previously noted?

Why are you surprised that an occupied and tortured people would rebel by using asymmetric warfare techniques against the terrorist Zionist invaders and land thieves who oppress them?

They are only behaving as any terrorized population would. How many Palestinian and Lebanese people including women and children have been killed by the powerful Israeli war machine for every Israeli that has been killed in return?

Rick

If the water agreement that Arafat signed in 1995 is unfair, then I agree with you that water policy should be changed. In the road map to peace, the first step is for the Palestinians to reject terrorism. Subsequent steps include negotiating borders and water rights. Since the Palestinians have not abandoned terrorism, I point the finger in their direction rather than Israel’s.

I will support changes to Arafat’s 1995 water agreement as soon as the Palestinians adopt Martin Luther King tactics and stop celebrating “martyrs” who have murdered Jewish children. The Palestinians government might also consider canceling the Mickey Mouse type shows, which teach hatred of Jews to Palestinian children.

So we both agree that Arafat’s water agreement seems unfair. The difference is that you blame the Jews while I blame terrorism. If the Palestinians abandon terrorism and negotiate a deal similar to the one that Arafat torpedoed in 2000 in Camp David, then the Palestinians will be swimming in money and Evian water. Too bad most of them would rather support terrorists and hold onto their hatred of Jews.

You repeatedly have called me an anti-Semite and racist. This opinion of yours is generated by the fact that I blame the Palestinians rather than the Israelis for not achieving change. So I will clarify: I don’t hate the Palestinians. I feel sorry for them and hope they can reject terrorism and improve their lives. I weigh the two scenarios--the possibility that Arafat signed an unfair agreement vs. negotiating changes to that agreement immediately (which rewards terrorism). Of the two, it seems logical to choose the Road Map’s solution and not to discuss this until terrorism is abandoned. The fact that I agree with the Road Map’s concept of rejecting terrorism before negotiating to change Arafat’s agreement doesn’t make me a racist. You insult people who have been victimized by racism when you call me a racist.

Alan,

Good post, as I said before; but it is just an exact verbatim repeat of your previous post from yesterday @ December 22, 2007 4:24 PM, which I have accepted as more or less accurate with the exception that it does not address the charge that the entire so called “State of Israel” is a war criminal entity because of its water policy toward the Palestinians.

It does not address the serious war criminal charges raised by Israel’s own B’Tselem human rights organization, which considers Israel’s water policy to be racist, illegal and “discriminates on racial grounds”.

Since you and William apparently support this illegal travesty of a policy, you must admit that you are both hypocrites of the highest order and are squarely in the racist anti-Semite camp of which you are so fond of accusing others.

Rick

Israel is abiding by Arafat’s signed water agreement from 1995. The West Bank receives what they are supposed to receive. And it’s more than they ever got when Jordan was running things. I believe the Road Map starts with a cessation of violence and terrorism on the part of the Palestinians. Borders and water rights deals get struck later. By the way, the road map isn’t written by the US (it also involves the UN, the EU, and Russia) so you don’t need to be concerned about unfairness that could arise due to nefarious American Jewish lobbyers.

At this time, the Palestinians prefer terrorism by a wide enough margin to have elected Hamas, the nice folks who bring you Mickey Mouse cartoons that vilify Jews, as well as erect billboards with angelic posters of “martyrs’ who have intentionally murdered children.

Once the Palestinians discard state sponsored racism and terrorism, they will have their own country, supported by the world, and will be given enough water and money to improve their lives. Unfortunately, William’s concept of humiliation driving the Palestinians seems accurate. To paraphrase, he states that many of them are driven more by their humiliation at losing wars to Jews than by a desire to improve their own economic success. They, not the Israelis, are responsible for their conditions. You might want to stop blaming the Jews until after the Palestinians have found their Martin Luther King. If they do find one, Israel will gladly leave the West Bank.

Now for Apartheid. I already mentioned that Arabs vote, attend university, and can join the military if they want to. They don’t have to live in separate cities. Check out the Arab population of Haifa, Israel’s third largest city. As for representation in parliament, did it ever occur to you that not every Arab votes for an Arabic party? Did you know that Mexican Americans make up a much larger proportion of the US than can be found in Congress? Is the US not giving Mexican Americans fair representation? Do all blacks vote for black candidates and Mexicans for Mexican candidates?

How about that first cabinet minister you mentioned? In the US, we just recently saw the first black secretary of defense and secretary of state. Is America apartheid? I notice that Black people tend to live in Detroit and whites have moved to the suburbs. Is this apartheid? There are no laws against white people living in projects in Detroit. Or blacks living in the nice suburbs. Yet this separation often exists.

I already told you that the Arab couple, if there is an injustice, will have their day in court. You seem to ignore that point, namely, that there is legal recourse when discrimination occurs. How’s the legal recourse in Saudi Arabia for rape victims? How come all the Jews fled Arab countries in the last 60 years? Do you think the courts are nice to Jews in Arabic countries?

As for schools, I already refuted your points by showing you that Arab schools have 22% of the population and 18.4% of the resources. I gave you an example that it costs less to run a school in Mississipi than in New York City. Similarly, it probably costs less to run a school in smaller Arab villages than in Tel Aviv, where rents are high and people make more money.

More from B’Tselem on International Law relative to water rights:

http://www.btselem.org/english/Water/International_Law.asp

International law on water

In examining international law, it is necessary to distinguish between Israel's obligations as an occupying state to the population under its control on one hand, and the use of water sources shared by Israel and the Palestinians, which are considered international waters, on the other.

A. Administration of the water sector in occupied territory

1. Prohibition on altering legislation

Article 43 of the 1907 Hague Regulations prohibits an occupying state from changing the legislation in effect prior to occupation. The military orders that Israel issued regarding the water resources and the supply of water in the Occupied Territories significantly changed the legal and institutional structure of the water sector. The water resources in the Occupied Territories were integrated into the legal and bureaucratic system of Israel, severely limiting the ability of Palestinians to develop those resources.

2. Illegal utilization of water resources

Article 55 of the Hague Regulations limits the right of occupying states to ut