Comments (84)

Personally, I believe that much of what is said here is just a load of crap! Islam, teaches intolerance and hate towards the "infidel" non Muslims.It also asks for the deaths of any Muslims that object to the teaches of Islam. Is that tolerant?

To often people you who call them selves "Muslim" are really just intolerant biggots. They have two faces especially in Turkey. The scream "dialog", "liberal Islam" etc., but what they want to say and really mean is "freedom only for US the muslims". Sad, but true all too often. NO one really practices the ideal and true form of Islam. Accept it.

well ,since i asked first- you go first

Victoria

"respectfully, may i ask where you have gotten your ideas about islam from?"

You have asked this strange question and I must ask it you.

Gauging people souls or nearness to God is impossible. It is always the humanbeing and his creator at the end.

Islam has many axioms. Islam doesn't mean imposing religion on others. All prophets of God Peace Be upon them must not be insulted under no conditions--unless they are insane or have no brains.

Islam doesn't mean killing non-Moslems or oppressing women.

Moslems don't go over these axioms no matter what

@ Victoria,

Does the American government also have Virginity laws like they have in Turkey?

Please see the following for a clarification:

hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=turkey

A Matter of Power
State Control of Women’s Virginity in Turkey: June 1, 1994
"...An investigation of the prevalence of forcible virginity control exams and the role of the government in conducting or tolerating such exams, this report cites several separate incidents in the spring of 1992 when young females committed suicide after authorities ordered them to submit to examinations of their hymens."

****

Victoria, it appears that you are incapable of reading though you are very good at copy/pasting irrelevant information.
We are not talking about human rights abuses against women in America, we are discussing the need to objectify women in Turkey and thereby impose such things as "Virginity Tests" on them.

I would like you to read the article I posted to you above since it will clarify another position on the matter of the treatment of women in Turkey.

web.amnesty.org/library/index/engeur440062003

I will quote from the first page, another passage for you since you are having trouble:
"Although all women are at risk of violence, due to specific patterns of discrimination in Turkey Amnesty International is concerned that Kurdish women, particularly those living in the south-east, and women who hold political beliefs that are unacceptable to the government or the military, have been at increased risk of violence at the hands of agents of the state. Such violence is in violation of their internationally guaranteed right to be free from torture and inhuman and degrading treatment. Women who have the courage to speak out about their experiences have extreme difficulty in obtaining justice and both state and society combine to silence them."

****

Please answer me about your thoughts on the above two items. We can discuss the violence against women in the US when the issue becomes necessary.

Thank you for your cooperation

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

thank you spidon- i live in america- we have the highest domestic abuse stats in the world

so its definitely widespread

@ Victoria,

To answer your question on violence against women, you will find quoted below, the first sentence from a report by Amnesty International tittled:

Turkey
End Sexual Violence Against Women In Custody!

"Every day women across Turkey experience sexual and other physical violence. Women from all social and cultural backgrounds have been abused, assaulted and raped by state security forces, acquaintances, complete strangers, and by family members, including their partners. In a twisted and paradoxical use of the term, the concept of "honour" can be used to attempt to silence women who are sexually assaulted. As a consequence sexual violence flourishes and perpetrators act with impunity."

Link:
web.amnesty.org/library/index/engeur440062003

****

Please note that this problem is wide spread and it is not just the police and Security forces that engage in this act of violence.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

o, yes jawad-

let your women and girls into your mosques

if you educate them, they wont even imagine to do such a thing to begin with

do not disregard the wishes of the Prophet(pbuh) who did not segregate women in the mosque, and when asked, stated they were not to be forbidden entry

the qu'ran also states the mosque is the refuge of the woman.

if you do this, you wotn be having such hypotheticals to discuss

so what about beating women?

o, yes jawad-

let your women and girls into your mosques

if you educate them, they wont even imagine to do such a thing to begin with

do not disregard the wishes of the Prphet(pbuh) who did not segregate women in the mosque, and when asked, stated they were not to be forbidden entry

the qu'ran also states the mosque is the refuge of the woman.

if you do this, you wotn be having such hypotheticals to discuss

so what about beating women?

jawad-
dont re-edit in your mind

i LEAN towards hanafi teachings
i dont follow hanafi mehzab

why do you care about a ridiculous hypothetical?

i answered you- if you dont like the answer-thats your prerogative

is this a problem in turkey?

im in america jawad, and in america children generally follow the religion of their mothers-

not because anyone can decide this- because thats how it seems to manifest.

mothers are the first teachers of children, thats why im always exhorting my fellow muslims to teach women recitiation of the holy qu'ran

so, let me ask you a question now-

do you think men can beat their wives in islam?
sura 4:34

that is also a simple question

its a real and important question, one that affects millions of women-

t shirts in universites?
how many people does that affect? if it happens at all

basically jawad- you can set limits and restrictions on people

but that doesnt mean they have to obey you
do ou think women shoud be able to wear hijab at universities?
do you think it is alright for a muslim man to beat his wife?
peace

Victoria

Just a simple yes or no please.

Do you think that Turkish Girls can wear Tshirts showing the Danish cartoons in Turkish universities?

Since you follow the Hanafi Mezhab , do you think that a Turkish Moslem Woman can marry a non-Moslem? what about their children should they follow the father's religion or the mother's?

peace to you too

Victoria

Just a simple yes or no please.

Do you think that Turkish Girls can wear Tshirts showing the Danish cartoons in Turkish universities?

Since you follow the Hanafi Mezhab , do you think that a Turkish Moslem Woman can marry a non-Moslem? what about their children should they follow the father's religion or the mother's?

peace to you too

well, my philosophy is that i always look to the seminal impetus of anything- the core- the root cause and intention

i guess a turkish college girl is either finding her own identity, wants attention, is following her crowd, or trying to rebel against her parents.

personally- i think there cant be a really very noble motive to outwardly insult a group of people or try to deliberately inflame them.

so i would find it somewhat childish and probably ignore it.

i find denigrating others beliefs rather distasteful in general and extremely unimaginaitve.

if the secular turks are comapssionate and good mannered people, id like them as well as i like any good hearted people (which is a lot)

if they were pushy and angry about it id ignore them like i ignore any rude people

that sure is a funny question

the arificial boundaries of a nation are about the most contrived and superficial delineations one could imagine

if you're talking about nationalists- i have little use for flag wavers in general

but id have to meet them- how could i know if i like someone i never met?

peace jawad

Victoria

Do you think that Turkish Girls can wear Tshirts showing the Danish cartoons in Turkish universities?

DO you like secular Turks?

bekdil- that barn door has been closed ane the horse has escaped.

zubaida, what?

although there is an insight there-
for the christian city of god, and the jewish new jeruslaem to take place (one for the 2nd coming of the messiah, the other for the first) neither will the have any use for each other.
and be compelled to kill the unbelievers (depending upon whose perspective it is)

ive asked both zealot christians and jewosh people (although i dont know any believing zionists) and its simply a discussion no one is willing to have yet.

thats why ive always considered the relgious right evangelicals and israeli zizonists a most unseasy alliance

actually though- my overarching point is and has been the unacceptablity of intolerance and bias from any perspective.

muslims against jews or christians, greeks against turks- christians against jews against muslims against hindus against buddhists against...............................

actually, the british helped bring jewish people to israel

can

"dedicated to God"

you are making poor old Victoria a Christian Nun!

Yes Hon!! It is not only Catholics but all other Christian sects including all those Rednick Christians in the US who think if they help gather Jews from all over the world in Israel, they will help hasten the descendence of Jesus(PBUH)to earth and kill all the infindels including the Jews who will refuse to become Christians and whom the brought to Israel!

victoria
thanks you for your great effort and dont care what the some are trying to insult. because they have problem with God and they are criticizing God so it is normal for to criticize people who dedicated themselves to God.I ll pray to you Victoria. Thanks again

where is virginia usa?

i vaguely remember seeing it- my moms name was virginia- but she has passed on

spidon- this is the second accusation youve made that i post under a falsity- the first time you said i wasnt american- and my nane isnt victoria

i tol you about my mom and my name

now you make an ugly accusation of a lie agian

do you have a guilty conscience that youre accusing someone of what youre guilty of, or what?

whats the deal with you?
you hate me because i dislike prejudice?

you need ot inculcate some suspicion of the good in people in your soul dude-because who knows who else you alienate with your suspicious nature?

why are you so worried about me?
its creepy

Sorry to hear you are sick Bakshi.

Take care of yourself and above all, keep up the great work. You have opened a door to a discussion that must take place. Even this discussion is fascinating. I am continuously amazed in seeing how our Turkish propagandists trip all over themselves and each other.

P.S. I am not ignoring your discussion on the Armenian Genocide. I have been quite busy and feel that before commenting appropriately, I should read through all of the issues. I see however that Victoria has infiltrated that discussion under the name "Virginia USA :)"...

What an act...

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

zubaida- the very word catholic means universal.

there are many different kinds of cathoics, thomas merton was a wonderful voice of catholicism, he believed in the universality of approaching god.

you will find franciscans, poor claires, vincentians that are non-judgemental

the priest that i had my most in depth conversations with was from nigeria, and raised a muslim. his mother father sister were muslim-

pope john paul II invited khatami to the vatican, a first in the history of the church.

On 6 May 2001, Pope John Paul II became the first Catholic pope to enter and pray in an Islamic mosque. He visited Umayyad Mosque in Damascus, Syria, where John the Baptist is believed to be interred, and gave a speech including the statement: "For all the times that Muslims and Christians have offended one another, we need to seek forgiveness from the Almighty and to offer each other forgiveness." [14] He also famously kissed the Quran in Syria [15], an act which made him popular amongst Muslims.

In 2005, Pope John Paul II hosted the "Papal Concert of Reconciliation," which brought together leaders of Islam with leaders of the Jewish community and of the Catholic Church at the Vatican for a concert by choirs from Poland, the United Kingdom, the United States, and Turkey with the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. The event was conceived and conducted by Sir Gilbert Levine, KCSG and was broadcast throughout the world.

"Christians and Muslims generally we have understood each other badly. Sometimes in the past we have opposed each other and even exhausted ourselves in polemics and wars. I believe that God is calling us today to change our old habits. We have to respect each other and stimulate each other in good works upon the path indicated by God. In a world that desires unity and peace, but which experiences a thousand tensions and conflicts, believers should foster friendship and union among humanity and the people who comprise a single community on earth" (L’Osservatore Romano, August 1985).

John Paul II has typically called the Muslims "brothers." Only a few months after his election, in an appeal for peace in Lebanon, the Pope invoked Mary as Queen of Peace: "We know that the Mother of God is greatly venerated also by our Muslim brothers."

In 1989 appealing to MUSLIMS AS BROTHERS IN FAITH regarding the situation in Lebanon, he said: "How can we BELIEVERS, sons of the merciful God, our Creator, our Guide and our Judge, remain indifferent before an entire people that is dying under our very eyes?" (September 26, 1989)

Despite modest results, John Paul II has extended the hand of brotherhood and forgiveness to "our younger brothers born in Abraham."

HERE IS HIS SPEECH AT THE UMAYYAD MOSQUE
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0264qr.htm

so, you tell me zubaida.

do you still think that catholics consider muslims as non-believers, when the most venerated pontiff in the 20th century said these things?

as for the current pope zubaida- his most outstanding quality in determining his inheriting the papacy is his old age- ensuring that he will not be the papa for too long.

he has been known to make some racist remarks, was in the hitler youth at 14, and has raised some eyebrows with his comments.
but only ALLAH knows his heart and can judge him.

bekdil- (and spidon)

stop being such goofballs

ive worked so long and so hard that ive earned my time
its possible my career exceeds your own lifespan, unless youre older than 34.

i answer to no one, but ALLAH- and frankly- it's simply not your business what i do or do not do.

salaams amar, take care of your health and i hope to hear some interesting things on the extremely divided election coming up in lebanon.

zubaida- personally, i have enough of my own soul to worry about to bother trying to gauge the nearness of god to other people hearts, or their value to god.

the person you're praying next to may fall short and not attain paradies.

that christian or jew or pagan you see on the street may have the soul of a muslim lurking within them (lke i did)

your good dawa and example may draw them close to ALLAH- and of course your own soul will benefit greatly from that.

and finally, no dawa ever succeeded by tearing apart another persons belief-
it only makes people defensive and cling more tightly to a doctrine they didnt believe all that much to begin with

we have to offer islam and dawa with gentleness, and exhort its positive qualities to others-

and have suspicion for the good intentions in people, and you will bring them out- even if they werent initially there
peace

Victoria

Are you telling me that Catholics consider A moslem a believer in their religion!? You think the Pope would when consider other Christians who are not Catholics non-Christians.

Victoria, Spidon, was wondering where you guys had gone, and now I find you on this thread! Reading over your posts now. Just landed in Beirut, but have gotten terribly sick, so in bed recouping...

@ Victoria,

You sound like you have some pretty serious emotional problems. I agree with Bekdil: You spend too much time hiding from the world.

A job would improve your disposition greatly.

victoria

YES.

Please take of your HijaB and get a JoB!!!

peace be upon you

bekdil- by the way-

i live in america, iwas born here as were my parents grandparents etc...

if i wanted to look noce to westerners (or myslef i guess) id take off my hijab, and all sorts of opportunities (that dried up when i put it on) would be offered to me again.

but the fact is- i hate prejudice, i hate any xenophobia- i cant stand when people try to justify their prejudices with some negative and ugly accusations-

i lean toward hanafi teaching

as such, i have suspicion for the good intentions in people

so it pains me when i see others looking actively for the bad intentions in people

hope that clarifies my position for you

zubaida- i just reread your posts realizing to whom you were referring-

i dont know where you got the idea that hadeeth is equal to the qu'ran, or that it is an interpretation of the qu'ran.

it is not. period. at all.

hadeeth are the sayings of the Prophet(pbuh) and his actions.
and it's source is the fallible and faulty memory of men (and women)

the qu'ran is the authoritative message of ALLAH through the angel jibreel(gabriel) to Muhammad(pbuh)

it is not fallible or subject to men's memory
and is ALWAYS referred to before and above hadeeth

you mentioned that dr al-qawadari is considered a terrorist by turks becuase he suggested muslims live in ghettos?

the good doctor did not suggest that-
he suggested muslims build a strong community in their new homes, but become inclusive in their adopted societies, and at some length and description.

if turls think he suggested "ghettoes" (which is not even a word he used) they need to read his actual words, which are posted here.

peace

DR. AL-QAWADARI
Spreading without Dispersion

I said to our brothers in such lands that they should try to have their own small community inside the large society otherwise they will dissolve just as salt dissolves in water. They should also exert great effort to establish their own religious, educational, cultural, social, and entertainment institutions. However, this cannot be achieved except through mutual affection and cooperation, as one person alone may not be effective, but he is sure to be effective when he is working alongside his fellows; and Allah the Almighty supports [those who are united in one] jama`h [group, community].

The character of the Jews has been preserved throughout history through their small society that has its own thoughts and rituals represented by what may be called “The Jewish quarter,” so Muslim [minorities] should likewise have their own “quarters”.

I am not calling for such Muslims to BECOME ISOLATED FROM THE SOCIETIES IN WHICH THEY LIVE, as this is similar to death. They should be open to the society without exposing themselves to any “dispersion”. The required “openness” is that of a herald of a certain call who seeks to be effective and influential; not that of a person whose only goal is to imitate others and keep up with them in every step they take.

We have been complaining that Arab and Muslim geniuses immigrate to foreign countries where they find a place that they cannot find in their own countries even though they are distinguished in various important and vital specializations.

Since this is an undeniable fact, it is not at all permissible to let those great geniuses forget their religion, nations, heritage, and homelands. We must exert a lot of effort to make their minds and hearts inclined to their native lands as well as their people, families, brothers, and sisters, WITHOUT VIOLATING the right of the country where they live and to which they belong [through their new nationalities].

This can be achieved if their sense of belonging and loyalty are to Allah the Almighty, His Messenger, and the believers, and if they are upset because of the worries of their [Muslim] nation, and as long as their private interests do not take them away from the general issues of their nation. This is what the Jews throughout the world do for the sake of Israel.

Additionally, this is a duty of the Islamic Movement: not to let those people be swallowed up by materialism and opportunism which are widespread in the West. They should always be reminded of their origin for which they yearn.[3]

Since Islam exists in the West and has a religious, cultural, social, and – sometimes – economic presence, it is natural and logical that it would try to complete its political presence, because politics is now interfering in everything; besides, if we disregard politics, it will not leave us alone.

That is why we should answer a number of relevant inquires raised by Muslim minorities living in the West. Some of them are native residents while others are immigrants who have obtained Western nationalities and have become a part of their people.

Their questions include: Should they suffice themselves with the religion and isolate themselves from politics? Or should they adhere to the religion and join the field of politics? If they join politics, will they do this by belonging to other parties, or should they be independent? Therefore, is it permissible to join secularist parties? Is it legal to establish a party which must commit itself to the state’s constitution? Is it permissible for a Muslim to be a candidate in parliamentary assemblies on the basis of this state of affairs where he will have to acknowledge manmade constitutions that are applied in Western and other countries? If a Muslim wins the elections and enters a parliamentary assembly, he will have to swear that he will respect the general system and act upon the constitution: is this in conformity with the creed of Islam and the rulings of Shari`ah [Islamic Law]?

Such inquiries are raised by minorities everywhere; in Europe and other places. I would even say: these questions are also raised by some Muslim groups in many Islamic countries.

Some of these groups maintain that it is prohibited to form political parties, regarding this as an error and an innovation in the religion [bid`ah].

Others say it is unlawful to join elections to obtain membership in parliamentary assemblies. Some even consider this to be against the creed and call it “polytheistic assemblies”. Furthermore, one of them wrote a tract entitled “Joining Parliamentary Assemblies Contradicts Monotheism”!

In addition, some of them object to the wording of the oath taken by the members in which they swear that they will respect and obey the constitution, and so on. Some Islamists remove this paradox by adding “in no disobedience” after the word “obey” in the oath, saying it aloud.

If this is said inside our Islamic countries, what would be the case in other countries?

Hence, a Muslim minority should not derive its political understanding from such groups which have gone away from the correct way of things because of their “extravagance”. This is because they do not acknowledge the need of Islam to exist in these countries unless it is mandatory. They say that living there should be as necessary as using toilets; we have to use them in spite of their impurity, as some of them expressed.

Even some of them say that it is prohibited for a Muslim to obtain the nationality of such countries; they may even charge a person who obtains one with disbelief, because this is – as they say – a form of loyalty or friendship with disbelievers[4] while Almighty Allah says, “… He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them…” (Al-Ma’idah 5: 51)

Some others view that it is prohibited even to reside there if it is not necessary, and “necessity” here is measured according to certain criteria. In this regard, they have doubts which have been refuted by truth-seeking scholars.

The Islamic Shari`ah is realistic, as it takes man’s needs into consideration whether material or spiritual, religious or political, cultural or economic, and whether he lives in a Muslim society or outside it. This Shari`ah considers facilitation in all its rules and rulings; it puts no pressure or hardship and forbids harming others or reciprocating their harm, especially those living outside the Muslim society, for they are more worthy of such alleviation and consideration.

In this connection, among the needs of the Muslim minority is that it needs to live while adhering to its religion, creed, rituals, values, and morals as long as it does not do any harm to others. It also needs to intermingle with the society where it lives; producing, constructing, promoting, participating in all of its [legal] activities, doing what is good, spreading guidance, calling for virtue, resisting abominations, and positively affecting the society through good examples. At the same time, it must not dissolve into this society whereby it would neglect its constituents and religious and creedal characteristics.

Not all Muslim minorities are immigrants. Some – and sometimes all –of them are natives of the country where they live. That is why a minority in any country needs a voice that can express it in legislative assemblies, defend its rights, and prevent the issue of any unfair legislation that may prohibit what Allah the Almighty has legalized, hinder it from performing what He has enjoined upon it, or oblige it to do something that is denied by the Shari`ah.

It would be very beneficial if a number of Muslims are elected to join such assemblies whether independently or as members of a certain party. Those elected Muslims are to defend their sanctities and rights as a minority which has the right to practice its religious life and rituals of worship in a manner that does not harm others. Meanwhile, they should attract fair-minded people who support justice and freedom in all times and places.

The following are a number of Shari`ah rules which are guidelines in this issue:

1. The rule: “That without which an obligation cannot be established is itself an obligation”. Therefore, if Muslims cannot obtain their rights – religious, cultural and so on, – except by participating in politics and joining elections, this becomes obligatory upon them.

2. The rule: “Matters are attached to their objectives”. This rule is unanimously agreed-upon, and it is derived from the famous hadith: “ACTIONS are [judged] only according to INTENTIONS, and every person shall be [judged] according to his INTENTION.”[5] Accordingly, whoever participates in any political activity intending to defend Muslims’ rights, religious freedom, and cultural identity, will be rewarded by Allah the Almighty for this and Muslims will be grateful to him as well.

3. The rule of “blocking means [to evil]”. If a minority’s isolating itself from politics endangers its religious and social existence, marginalizes it, deprives it of many merits, and makes it fall into numerous impasses and evils, they must block the means to such dangers, because there is a Prophetic hadith that reads, “Whoever obviates evil will have it warded off.”[6]

4. The rule: “Necessities allow banned things, and needs are equal to necessities whether they are general or special”. Therefore, if a Muslim community living in a non-Muslim society out of necessity needs someone to defend its rights in a democratic country while this would involve some legally “forbidden” things such as swearing to respect the constitution which may include things that contradict Shari`ah; in this case this “forbiddance” is removed because of necessity or need. Almighty Allah says, “… But he who is driven by necessity, neither craving nor transgressing, it is no sin for him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.” (Al-Baqarah 2: 173)

5. The rule of “masalih mursalah or public interests” which refer to interests concerning which the Shari`ah does not textually specify whether they are to be legally considered or cancelled, but reason accepts them as they achieve benefits – whether material or immaterial – for the Muslim community. The Prophet’s Companions adopted this rule in many matters. Any public interest must not clash with a decisive text [from the Qur’an or the Sunnah] or a decisive rule of the Shari`ah, and it must bring about a real – not illusionary – benefit for the Muslim community.

In the light of this rule we view that it is more becoming for Muslims to participate in politics in order to achieve their religious and communal interests and to ward off dangers and evils, especially [considering the fact that] if they disregard politics, it will not leave them alone.

Muslims can establish a party of their own through which they can demand their rights as well as those of others if their number and power are sufficient to establish an independent party and as long as the constitution and the law allow this.

Muslims can also present a program of reform and guidance derived from the origins of Islamic thought while being connected with the Western perspective and experimentation with the new prospects which conform with the objectives of Shari`ah and the spirit of Islam.

Moreover, there is no problem if this party has non-Muslim members, as it not only presents itself to the Muslims in particular but also to citizens in general; and it is presumed that any Islamic system should present good and real interests to all people; Muslims and non-Muslims.

Muslims can join any political acting party but they should choose one which is nearer to Islamic principles and that sympathizes with Muslims and their interests at the same time; if it has anything that contradicts Islam, they should consider the situation carefully.

This should seek to make a scientific, practical, and objective study that is undertaken by experts and specialists and discussed by those in authority in the Muslim minority in the country in question. After this, Muslims are to decide which is better for them both in secular and religious terms: to form a party of their own or to join an acting party. Also they must decide which party is nearer to them.

They may also prefer something else which may be better than all this: not to form or join any party, but to remain as a free block which affects elections by supporting a certain party or candidate. By doing so, candidates will seek to draw near to them because it always happens that minorities make a candidate exceed another and win the elections especially when the difference of votes between the two is small; so the votes of the minority will overcome this difference in the interest of one of the two candidates.

THIS IS THE DANGER OF JUST READING THE FIRST PARAGRAPH-
i can understand how someone might get that idea, but clearly, the dr elaborates and discourages isolationism in a society-

peace- the article is called "existence of islam in the west"

here is the link to the full article- (ironically from the international union of muslim scholars link i provided before)
peace
http://www.iumsonline.net/english/articles/2007/08/02.shtml

bekdil- have you ever met a turk named victoria?

my statement-
"do you actually know any christians or jews?
i know many many many and it is only the fundamentalists who call muslims infidels"

was in response to zubaidas that all christians and jews consider muslims "infidels"

its not an unusual question for an american to ask at all-

i felt her statement indicated that she didnt know any mainstream christians and jews or she wouldnt portray them in such an intolerant way.

i live in new york, and i cant swing a dead cat without hitting christians and jews- (and hindus and muslims too)

i was raised christian- and i have hardly ever heard anyone call anyone infidels (a peculiar medeival term) and the ones who did, i made a straight shot away from.

so i wanted to know where she got such an idea, and protect my many christian and jewish friends from being defamed and misunderstood.

zubaida- why would i ask a journalist from the nixon center anything about islamic doctrine?

or anyone else?

There is no single verse in the Qur’an which prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy

ask dr jamal badawi-
http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1001_1050/is_apostasy_a_capital_crime_in_i.htm

you have a fundamentalist literalist extremist concept of islam that i suspect comes from faithfreedom sites-

spidon- from the quote i provided- muslims are to be peaceful and tolerant of other faiths- especially people of the book (christians and jews) and specifically forbidden from treating their fellow adherents unjustly.

we are to be protectors of each other- not to the detriment of others, but to the benefit of our community

so, i guess there are degrees- but it is in the context of the community of muslims-

i believe jewish people, and christians who strive for acceptance and understanding attitudes toward other faiths also exhort their own fellow worshippers to unity and no backbiting(malicious gossip)

o- i just figured it out-

zubaida do you mean dr al-qawadari?
of the internation union of muslim scholars?
http://www.iumsonline.net/english/index.shtml

so , zubaida. actually its not necessary to ask, as ive read his works, know his position on this issue of apostasy-

another place you can go to is the amman message- a consortium of 500 muslim scholars from all over the world, but i cant link it as it wont go through (after 2 links)

the consensus of the 500 is that no muslim may accuse another muslim of apostasy-
of course, the term muslim is defined to be inclusive of sufis, shi'ites etc...

when a muslim accuses another muslim of being a non-believer- (and the muslim is a believer) the accuse becomes guilty of the accusation themself.

we are not to call each other unbelievers
9this is my own opinion in general, and not directed at you zubaida in any way)

besides, its a rude, and judgemental and ill mannered childish kind of taunt

and has nothing to do with anything
it calls a persons heart and faith into question, thus demeaning their positon

something we, as muslims, are not in a position to judge
as only ALLAH knows a persons heart condition

9:71. The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.

2:286. On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns.

which means that we do not bear sin or blessing for other's actions

we are all uniquely personally responsible for our actions
peace

the Ottomans delayed the this attack the moslem world is facing today for alomst 500 years. Ottomans were more than able to modernize their country by transfering technolgy with out losing Islam but those mason wanted to wipe out islam. where is turkey today east or werst or in mars.

(Victoria(spidon))

1- The only model that explains how Non-Moslems were treated would be the Ottoman Empire, before the Masonic and Zionist Tanzimat Era. The Ottoman Empire at this precise time was a powerful Sunni Moslem Caliphate that used Sharia Law. Non-Moslems were protected by Islamic Committee headed by Shaihuleslam who applied the Quranic teachings to protect the religious and ethnic minorities. The Ottoman Sultan could not do anything for or against religious minorities without the permission of Shailhuleslam.

When the Ottomans became week and people in the Saray bought what Masons like Mustapha Reshid Pasha brought from the Brits and the French who used the rights of minority as a pretext to destroy the Ottoman Empire, Jews and Christians(Armenians) used their wealth they accumulated during the centuries, in which they lived peacefully with protection of the Quranic Laws, to tread over the Moslem Anatolian majority. This thing continues to this day. Armenians and Jews still twist Turkey's arm with the genocide thing and that is a live example. Christians and Jews continue to control the lives of Moslems all over the world to this day. They don't control the Moslems thru their ideologies only but also thru economics, politics, minority rights,…etc. And thru occupation(Israel and Iraq).They run the show.

Again, today no one should ask about the rights of Jews in Christian in the Moslem world since they still run the show.

2- Today's Turks have a severe complex of inferiority to the West. They are trying to be Westerners more than Westerners themselves. An example:

do you actually know any christians or jews? do you actually know any christians or jews?

Who would ask such a question at this day and age?!!!!!

PEOPLE WHO WANT TO LOOK NICE TO WESTERNERS AND GET THEIR BLESSINGS.

Prophet Mohammed PBUH showed that Moslems are linked together like body organs, if an organ is hurt the rest of the body suffers.

The Ataturk has severed the Turks from Islam and the Moslem.

Turks today don't really care about the Moslem world, they care about their image in the West.

They are incapable of understanding that today "Moslems" don't have rights in their own countries so that Turks would worry about non-Moslems' rights.

3- If secular Turks want to laugh, then they should laugh a the Mothers of the martyrs who died because of the policies of the Ataturk. The policies that tried to force Kurds to become Turks and deprived them from their rights. They should laugh at themselves when they say" one country and one tongue" when they cannot even talk sense in Turkey's Kurds who sympathize with the PKK.

Victoria

This is true Viki there are authentic(strong), weak , and forged(being put by munafiks and enemies of Islam after Prophet Mohammed's death PBUH) Hadiths.

However, statement like this
"one cannot even accuse a believer of being an unbeliever without taking the risk of being a non-believer themsleves if they are wrong
only ALLAH knows"
along with other statement like killing of apostates and stoning of adulteresses must be asked to Dr. Ali Bardakogul.

Moslem scholars have to tell us why did prophet Mohammed stone adulteresses and if such punishments must be abolished from Islam.

Only Moslem scholars, not feminists, seculars, homosexuals, or mason graduates of Roberts College and other Godless campuses of Turkey, would be able to present a good answer.

By the way Vikki ask Zayno Baran about Dr Elkardawy if you are interested

I read Zaman, the English version on the Internet. It is a good one actually. It explains how Turks have an identity crisis.

For example, one of its columnist called Egyptian Islamists prisoners killers but that writer didn't use the same adjectives for the blackwater people. Which is a clear example that Turks still hate the Islamic world and they don't belong to the Ummah of Prophet Mohammed s.a.s.

When I look at the Expatriates sections, I thought I would read about foreigners(Mainly Europeans and Americans) talk about their life in Turkey. Instead, I see things that are very dangerous and may destroy the Moslem family. Like Moslem Turkish women marring Non-Moslem rejects from the US. Also married Turkish women having an affair with foreigners.

How could an American Non-Moslem give advise to Moslem people? If interracial marriages are failing in the US how could they succeed in Turkey. If Turkish Moslem women marry non-Moslems what will happen to the children. Won't these children become enemies of Islam and Moslem societies. What happen to Islamic Marriage in Turkey. These Americans and Europeans must help their societies before they try to give advise to Turks who have identity problems. After all "CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME"

Another example is another courageous Zaman columnist who believes that Turkey can cooperate with Saudi Wahabis in "Women Rights Issues". God help the Wahabis, in few years their daughters will marry Non-Moslems and wear red miniskirts singing 50cnets lollypop songs!!!!!

@ Victoria, November 8, 2007 1:59 PM

I will quote you for accuracy:
"islam is the religion of overwhelming tolerance
ESPECIALLY towards other muslims"

Do you meant to say that Islam is overwhelmingly tolerant but selectively more so to Muslims?

I see!

Victoria, I think we all see that!

I am sorry for laughing so hard but what you said is exactly the type of loose language that makes a lot of people wonder whether Islam is mature enough to appreciate the humour in contradiction.

I am curious how you define 'tolerance'. As far as I can tell, the word does not have variance between minimum and maximum. You can have 'less tolerant' or 'more tolerant' but the word no longer maintains its integrity and meaning.
I am also curious how you define 'overwhelmingly' because as far as I can tell, it is used to connote an overabundance; overpowering; irresistible; or overflowing. Here again we do not have a minimum or maximum quality to the word since it already connotes a maximum. How can something be 'overwhelmingly tolerant' and also be limited?

The other issue is whether Islam is tolerant toward Muslims more than it is toward others? By your definitions of the terms, yes it is. The reality however, when we look at the empirical world around us, we see that the terms used by you and in many cases within Islam are contradictory.
This is a contradiction that is very current in Islamic teaching and thought. The evidence of proof is quite exemplary to the contrary, since we have so many examples of Islam being overwhelmingly intolerant especially to Muslims. I think, unless I am wrong, that there have been more acts of despicable cruelty subjected upon Muslims by other Muslims than against any other religious or ethnic group against Muslims.

I can make lists here but I do not think it is necessary to display the gruesome details.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

zubaida-

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

i dont kow who dr elkadawi is.

if he's the world's most respected scholar, why isnt he in the international union of muslim scholars?
i searched for his name there-and there were no entries
i googled him, and there were no links

the hadeeth does not have equal power to the qu'ran

the hadeeth is based on the faulty and subjective memory of man- whereas the qu'ran is based upon the word of ALLAH- is uncorrupted since it's inception

there are many hadeeth that clearly contradict the qu'ran.

we have to make distinctions between strong transmissions and moderate or weak ones.

do you actually know any christians or jews?

i know many many many and it is only the fundamentalists who call muslims infidels

islam is the religion of overwhelming tolerance

ESPECIALLY towards other muslims

one cannot even accuse a believer of being an unbeliever without taking the risk of being a non-believer themsleves if they are wrong

only ALLAH knows

Anonymous

Omitting verses from the Holy Quran that angers Jews and Christians is pure disgraceful thing. It is a way to cheat non-Moslems and undermine Quran.

Christians and Jews consider Moslems infidels. Just like Islam, they don't allow their women to marry Moslems.

This verse" There is no compulsion in religion" is used by Turkish masons who talk about fraternity and equality in religions and they forget that the holy verse has a completion.

"There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût[] and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower(256:2)"

No one is forced in religion. A Moslem can apostatize. Moslems cannot force people to follow their religion.

It also shows that right and wrong is defined in Islam and the straight path to paradise is clearly defined.

It also shows that Allah knows everything.

"The last thing Our prophet describe a real muslim saying that "A muslim is a man who the others safe and sound his hand and tongue" depending on this description, A muslim is a servant of security and peace"

VERY TRUE. ONLY IN ONE CONDITION: IF I LIVE IN "PEACE" AND "SECURITY".

Anonymous

Omitting verses from the Holy Quran that angers Jews and Christians is pure disgraceful thing. It is a way to cheat non-Moslems and undermine Quran.

Christians and Jews consider Moslems infidels. Just like Islam, they don't allow their women to marry Moslems.

This verse" There is no compulsion in religion" is used by Turkish masons who talk about fraternity and equality in religions and they forget that the holy verse has a completion.

"There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût[] and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower(256:2)"

No one is forced in religion. A Moslem can apostatize. Moslems cannot force people to follow their religion.

It also shows that right and wrong is defined in Islam and the straight path to paradise is clearly defined.

It also shows that Allah knows everything.

"The last thing Our prophet describe a real muslim saying that "A muslim is a man who the others safe and sound his hand and tongue" depending on this description, A muslim is a servant of security and peace"

VERY TRUE. ONLY IN ONE CONDITION: IF I LIVE IN "PEACE" AND "SECURITY".

Victoria

Islam has only two sources: Quran and Hadith(which contains the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammed PBUH. Hadith is the interpertation of Quran.Actions of the Prophet has equal importance and power of the Quran.

There are no moderates and immoderates.

and NO ONE PLAYS WITH CONSTANS IN ISLAM!!!

Dr Elkardawi is the most respected scholar of the Moslem world. He is loved by hundreds of millions of Moslems. However, many Turks consider him a terrorist because he speaks the conscious of the Moslem world.

He encouraged moslems in the West to live in ghettoes. This angered many Turks who wanted Moslems(Turks),who live in the West, to mix with Europeans so that they could fit or assimilate into western culture. They wanted their daughters to marry non-moslems.In other words, they want moslems in West to tread over Islamic constants.

This shows that there is a great rift between Turkey and the Moslem world.

Many people in the moslem world mistakenly believe that Islamist won in Turkey and Secualrs lost because of them and Turkey is returing to Islam. in fact, AKP is not an Islamic party and when it won,it told Turkey that it will respect Ataturk stuff. Many of those who voted for it dirnk, fornicate, and believe that they will enter paradise just because they are proud to be moslems!!!

this means that those who were raised with the picture of the Ataturk hanging all over and lived in a very western modern life style voted for AKP.

this is why I gave two opetions to the secular Turks. it is a very disgraceful defeat.

No one dares to underestimate the fact that Istanbul was a hub for Islam during the Ottoman times(before the Masonic Tanzimat Era). At that time,Istanbul used to send Moslem scholars all over the world.

No one dares to underestimate the Hoca Efendi Gulen and the international achievements of his movement. The Hoca is a blessed Moslem scholar and his parents are also blessed. He is a student of the Great Kurdish scholar Imam Nurasi.

But one cannot ignore the effects of the environment from which the movement originated. The Ataturk was a vocal enemy of Islam. Between the 1920s and the 1950s Islam couldn't be taught in Turkey. 30 years is a long time. Long enough to create a generation that despises Islam. Long enough to distort the "Fitrah"-the innate predisposition to distinguish between good and evil with which God has created human beings- of many Turks.

Many Turks pontificate about the fact that when the Ataturk kicked the Ottomans out he closed all sources or places of foreign interests. But just like so many exaggerated "suppose to be" facts about the Ataturk, that was as another lie. Masonic lodges spread to suburbs and villages. Ali Hasan Yucel, the Turkish education minister in the 1930s, was a known freemason. One only can imagine how dangerous it is for freemasonry to reach the minds of young Turks and their teachers.

Imam Nurasi saw this danger and describe it as an attack on faith . That's why he spent the rest of his life writing the letters or messages of light to try to save what the Turkish seculars and atheists done to the Turk's Islamic faith. Because Imam Nurasi lived during the last days of the Ottoman Empire he saw a vision that materialized today. He saw the Ottoman empire giving birth to atheism and Europe giving birth to Islam. Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and in Europe in particular.

This is were the importance of Hoca Efendi Gulen movement exist. As Islam is being attacked in the West, the movement may build a good foundation for those who ask questions about this religion which is coming under fire. Their experience from their international interaction will provide them with the appropriate tool.

However, keeping in mind the environment effect, mentioned above, it is important to see how this affects they way the intellectuals of this movement see the Moslem world from which they were severed. It is also important to see the effect of the past 80 years, after the death of the ataturk and the policies his successors inherited from him, on their understanding of Islam and its role in the society.

No one dares to underestimate the fact that Istanbul was a hub for Islam during the Ottoman times(before the Masonic Tanzimat Era). At that time,Istanbul used to send Moslem scholars all over the world.

No one dares to underestimate the Hoca Efendi Gulen and the international achievements of his movement. The Hoca is a blessed Moslem scholar and his parents are also blessed. He is a student of the Great Kurdish scholar Imam Nurasi.

But one cannot ignore the effects of the environment from which the movement originated. The Ataturk was a vocal enemy of Islam. Between the 1920s and the 1950s Islam couldn't be taught in Turkey. 30 years is a long time. Long enough to create a generation that despises Islam. Long enough to distort the "Fitrah"-the innate predisposition to distinguish between good and evil with which God has created human beings- of many Turks.

Many Turks pontificate about the fact that when the Ataturk kicked the Ottomans out he closed all sources or places of foreign interests. But just like so many exaggerated "suppose to be" facts about the Ataturk, that was as another lie. Masonic lodges spread to suburbs and villages. Ali Hasan Yucel, the Turkish education minister in the 1930s, was a known freemason. One only can imagine how dangerous it is for freemasonry to reach the minds of young Turks and their teachers.

Imam Nurasi saw this danger and describe it as an attack on faith . That's why he spent the rest of his life writing the letters or messages of light to try to save what the Turkish seculars and atheists done to the Turk's Islamic faith. Because Imam Nurasi lived during the last days of the Ottoman Empire he saw a vision that materialized today. He saw the Ottoman empire giving birth to atheism and Europe giving birth to Islam. Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and in Europe in particular.

This is were the importance of Hoca Efendi Gulen movement exist. As Islam is being attacked in the West, the movement may build a good foundation for those who ask questions about this religion which is coming under fire. Their experience from their international interaction will provide them with the appropriate tool.

However, keeping in mind the environment effect, mentioned above, it is important to see how this affects they way the intellectuals of this movement see the Moslem world from which they were severed. It is also important to see the effect of the past 80 years, after the death of the ataturk and the policies his successors inherited from him, on their understanding of Islam and its role in the society.

No one dares to underestimate the fact that Istanbul was a hub for Islam during the Ottoman times(before the Masonic Tanzimat Era). At that time,Istanbul used to send Moslem scholars all over the world.

No one dares to underestimate the Hoca Efendi Gulen and the international achievements of his movement. The Hoca is a blessed Moslem scholar and his parents are also blessed. He is a student of the Great Kurdish scholar Imam Nurasi.

But one cannot ignore the effects of the environment from which the movement originated. The Ataturk was a vocal enemy of Islam. Between the 1920s and the 1950s Islam couldn't be taught in Turkey. 30 years is a long time. Long enough to create a generation that despises Islam. Long enough to distort the "Fitrah"-the innate predisposition to distinguish between good and evil with which God has created human beings- of many Turks.

Many Turks pontificate about the fact that when the Ataturk kicked the Ottomans out he closed all sources or places of foreign interests. But just like so many exaggerated "suppose to be" facts about the Ataturk, that was as another lie. Masonic lodges spread to suburbs and villages. Ali Hasan Yucel, the Turkish education minister in the 1930s, was a known freemason. One only can imagine how dangerous it is for freemasonry to reach the minds of young Turks and their teachers.

Imam Nurasi saw this danger and describe it as an attack on faith . That's why he spent the rest of his life writing the letters or messages of light to try to save what the Turkish seculars and atheists done to the Turk's Islamic faith. Because Imam Nurasi lived during the last days of the Ottoman Empire he saw a vision that materialized today. He saw the Ottoman empire giving birth to atheism and Europe giving birth to Islam. Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and in Europe in particular.

This is were the importance of Hoca Efendi Gulen movement exist. As Islam is being attacked in the West, the movement may build a good foundation for those who ask questions about this religion which is coming under fire. Their experience from their international interaction will provide them with the appropriate tool.

However, keeping in mind the environment effect, mentioned above, it is important to see how this affects they way the intellectuals of this movement see the Moslem world from which they were severed. It is also important to see the effect of the past 80 years, after the death of the ataturk and the policies his successors inherited from him, on their understanding of Islam and its role in the society.