Comments (264)

About PKK, Americans and western people have to know one realty that today the biggest drug and heroin traffic all over Europe is coordinated by PKK. Only because of this fact, lots of European countries incl. Germany, France, UK had to ban PKK activities even though they had a tolerance till they became sure. But even today, drug and heroin is one of the biggest income of PKK.

Commentator: You must be an awful idiot. Turks have inhabited Anatolia for a THOUSAND years.

There seems to be a lot of misinformation going on about the PKK. The PKK was formed from 1978 - 1979 in the backdrop of the Leftist Movement in Turkey that was nationalistic and did little to support Kurdish rights. Abdullah Ocalan, the founder of the PKK and other leftists, including Turks, organized the PKK. During the 1980 coup by rightists, the military banned the Kurdish language in public and it was illegal to speak Kurdish until the 1990's, and it is still risky to do so. Literally, you went to jail if you spoke Kurdish or published anything. Layla Zana in 1995 spent ten years in jail for calling herself a Kurd in parliament. Naturally, a people who cannot learn their language in public when they number fifteen million will turn to resistance, any people would. The Turks, for eighty years, called Kurds, "Mountain Turks" and they didn't recognize the Kurds even existed. The debate has changed since the 1970's and the 1980's.

It is worth noting now that the Kurds, 25 - 30 million people, are the largest ethnic group in the world without their own country. They've lived in that land since the time of the Medes, the Turks got the land after WW I and now they act as though they've inhabited it since the beginning of time, which is incorrect. The Turks are the last ethnic group to enter the Middle East. They were promised a country in 1919 by the Treaty of Sevres and were denied it by the 1923 Lausanne settlement. They have been subjected to horrible discrimination and cultural persecution. Turkey has successfully assimilated millions of Kurds.

It's interesting how many of these posters fail to notice how the Turkish government has pursued an assimilationist policy, erasing the identity of millions of people. The Turkish government destroyed 3,000 villages in the fight against the PKK and has deployed nationalist vigiliante groups and terror in the fight against the PKK as well. The Turkish government has also displaced over a milion people. It's very common knowledge if you talk to a Kurd from Turkey - one's that live in the South - East - that the often say that the PKK is a force against the assimilation.

The fact that the PKK has a huge deal of support ought to tell you something about it. There's a reason for it. And it's not that all the Kurds are villains as some posters have made this out to be.

i think that the u.s army is doing a good job and they are helping my people.
turks are the most stupid people in the world so they should leave our country and get lost...kurds will take over soon.

To anyone interested in formulating an objective and personal opinion on the matter at hand, a good place to start is by reading where the Turkish problems come from. Please copy/paste the line below into your browser and simply read the thousands of Human Rights violations by Turkey as listed by the organization HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH:

hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=turkey

****

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

I honestly am having such a difficult time understanding how people act these days here in America. When I was young I was considered a Hippie/Flower Child. But we cared about each other. We were fighting against racism, prejudice and intolerances of all types.

When I was 19 I was invited to go to live as long as I wished by illigal Mexican Migrant workers. I took them up on their offer. These men were picking fruit in the hot sun so they could support their families for the rest of the year. And yet they wanted to pay my way to go to their small village in the desert.

Three days on a bus and a long taxi ride and I was in a small village with no cars, no safe drinking water for three miles, and no toilets or electricity except some of the people had a lightbulb as they had just gotten electricity the year before.

These people treated me like family. They all took turns sharing their homes with me. I wanted to stay forever but I knew they could not afford to feed me.. even though they would have. I stayed two months and they all chipped in and sent me back when I was ready.

My point is this: Hate begats hate. Somewhere after all the progress we were making back then against racism... it reared it's ugly head again.

I can tell you the problem with America in two words: GREED and SELFISHNESS. I think it applies to all things in all countries. I would also add the word INTOLERANCE.

I actually lost my faith after a lifetime of living it with vigor and conviction. I do not like what religion causes in respect to wars and hatred. If there was a god... a supreme being of any kind... you cannot convince me he or she would be happy with the way we treat each other.

Everyone I meet from a poor country has a heart as big as a mountain. I watched many of my Mexican friends move to the U.S. and over time I watched them lose sight of who they were. It is easy for people to get caught up in the greed and forget what is really important. Most families here are not close at all compared to those from poor countries. I am 55 and dying. I wish I could convince you all to just stop arguing about who and what is right.

When I found out I was going to die I wrote 6o typed pages to my children so they would have all the knowledge and wisdom I wanted to leave with them. It was too long. They would not remember. I reduced it to 10 pages, 3 pages, 1 page. It was still too long. I knew they would not remember. So I went out and bought bright orange neon cards and I took a black marker and wrote the following: "This is the sum total of all my knowledge and wisdom:
1. Love everyone.
2. Forgive everyone.
3. Judge no one.

I knew they could remember that. In closing, I met a young Kurdish man after emailing him back and forth for a few weeks. He came and stayed in my home for the weekend. I have never met a finer man in my life. I hope all of you who read this lose all of your intolerance, greed. selfishness and use your minds and hearts to treat each other the way you would want to be treated... no matter who the person is, no matter what they look like, believe, their religious preference, sexual preference, etc. Just treat everyone the way you want to be treated.

"Evil flourishes when good people do nothing."
"If you want to get to the other side of the lake, tow someone else's boat and lo... yours will be there also."

I read those when I was 12 years old and never forgot them. Go see the movie 'Ghandi' starring Ben Kingsly. It is long and not action packed. No special effects. But it's message is powerful
and moving. Surround yourselves with happy tolerant people and learn to enjoy all the differences in each other. The only prejudice a person should have is the prejudice of prejudice.

May you all come to know the happiness I have known in my life.

My love and best wishes to all of you and for your loved ones and even for your enemies.

So let it be written...So let it be done.

James Seaborn gaspdesign@earthlink.net

Todd-

English is not the official language of the US; some states have accepted is as their official language (to avoid the likely multilingual headaches that exist in Belgium and Canada, for example).

The US-Turkey relationship has been useful in the past, for both parties. The Turks got aid to prevent Soviet imperialist expansion; the US got a brave ally in a troubled part of the world. However, the time for pacts, contracts, and agreements linking the two is over; in fact, I suspect is has been since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Many years in the early '90s, I met a US citizen who had lived and worked at Incirlik (a US air base in Turkey); he said the Turks were such "friends" that they were fond of stabbing Yanks in the bum. What drives Turkish hatred of the US? Perhaps the same insanity that drives the strong saleß of Hitler's "Mein Kampf" in Turkey (http://www.guardian.co.uk/turkey/story/0,,1447209,00.html) and other parts of the Muslim world. Is it the perpetually wounded pride, inflated ego, and need for scapegoats that sells anti-US books and movies like "Valley of the Wolves"?

The claim that Turkey is "a poodle" of the US is rubbish. If it were a "poodle," it would have submitted to US requests for allowing troops to enter Iraq from the north. But the Turkish poodle didn't: It is not a "poodle" but a pooper.

The US should end political and military ties with Turkey, withdraw all US forces, end any and all aid. Treat Turkey like a normal nation. There is no need to be belligerent, but it's time to say, "Thanks for the memories, Turkey."

How does someone tell some person that they cant speak their language? I think that government needs to be thrown out.

How immature is the Turkish government to not speak and hold gatherings with the kurdish government to solve this problem, no they only want to deal with the Iraqi governement in baghdad, oh well turks, the presedent of iraq is kurdish too, and soon East Turkey will be ours too, Saddam never saw it comming... neither will you......Biji Kurdw Kurdistan

Kurds are not a minority in Turkey, Kurds are in their homeland Kurdistan that is occupied by Turkey, please get your facts right. Kurdish land was divided in 1921 by France and England between 5 countries, Turkey (which has the biggest part) Iran, Iraq, Syria and back then Soviet Union by now by Armenia. Kurds are not minorities in any of theses countries, but are in their country called Kurdistan. So what if Kurdistan is not independent YET, it is still a country, occupied country.

I am a Kurd. I have never been to Kurdistan, to any of the 5 parts but I know hundereds of people who are from all 5 parts, and each person have hundered of stories relating how the governments of Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Armenia brutalized them, and stilll actively does. I will only talk about the Kurds under the occupation of Turkey since this article is about Kurds over there (and are the most oppressed Kurds)

Kurds there cannot talk, learn, teach, listen, watch in their own language. In schools, there is absolutly no Kurdish classes and leasons to be taught. No Kurdish flag can be seen anywhere,no Kurdistan map can be seen anywhere, you cannot mention the work "KURDISTAN", you cannot have any items that egraved or says "KURDISTAN". Kurds there cannot dress in traditional Kurdish clothes. Kurds are not even called Kurds, they are called "Mountain Turks".

I am a Kurd, i know Kurds there who tells me this things, i know Kurds here in USA who came from there and tell me all about it. Mr. Amar is there RIGHT NOW and SEEING EVERYTHING, yall dont need to claim this article as false or bias, because Mr. Amar is not even KURDISH.

Mr. Amar, as a Kurd, and on behalf of Kurds, I really appreciate and thank you for your concerns for the oppressed Kurds. I pray for you. God Bless. Shukriya.

I see that the conversation here is in good hands.
The Turks are doing a splendid job of compromising themselves, and since they are about to swallow a lot of their misplaced anger, it would be wise for them to play nice with the rest of the kids in their neighbourhood.

I have one question though:
What claims does Turkey have for the territorial part of Northern Iraq, where the Kurds now live, based on historical proof?
Is there any proof to substantiate Turkey's territorial claim to the Kurdish regions?

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

I met a young Kurdish man who has the highest values, great morals and a big heart. He is attending a small Univerity in Fairfield, Iowa. It is a University that most Americans think of as a joke.

I want to know if you are aware of any scholarships or funding for education for Kurds. My own grown children do not have the high standards this young man has. I think it is a disgrace that he comes to America and is cheated by a University that misrepresents itself.

He already has a B.A. in computer software and is trying to get his Masters Degree. Can you lead me in a direction where I can get him out of the University which I feel strongly misrepresented itself and took advantage of this man?

I want to help this man because the world needs more people like this. He is such a shining example.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Thank you,

James Seaborn gaspdesign@earthlink.net

I met a young Kurdish man who has the highest values, great morals and a big heart. He is attending a small Univerity in Fairfield, Iowa. It is a University that most Americans think of as a joke.

I want to know if you are aware of any scholarships or funding for education for Kurds. My own grown children do not have the high standards this young man has. I think it is a disgrace that he comes to America and is cheated by a University that misrepresents itself.

He already has a B.A. in computer software and is trying to get his Masters Degree. Can you lead me in a direction where I can get him out of the University which I feel strongly misrepresented itself and took advantage of this man?

I want to help this man because the world needs more people like this. He is such a shining example.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Thank you,

James Seaborn gaspdesign@earthlink.net

I gotta tell ya all. America ll take you nowhere...

point well taken vic-

im learning

Todd, Amar hasn't left Turkey yet that I know of. Just letting you know. He's moving to other opinions as he goes.

And why should he put up disclaimers? It's not his responsibility to make sure everyone knows his point of view. You have to go back a few posts and read what he's doing. He's examining the issues in Turkey affecting the US in different places. It's not like he's intentionally favoring the Kurds. It's just that someone had to come first. Trust me, we'll get all these backlash comments going the other way in no time. Before you start bashing Amar, you have to understand why he's there and what his method is. Comment all you'd like on it, but you can't tell him to not bring these opinions down unless he's gone out to purposefully find an antithesis. It's not how he's operating down there.

And Victoria, it's certainly based on Marxism, but as I was saying, the way they operate is very contrary to the Communist methodology. It's wierd how it happened,considering that up until maybe 2003 or 2004, it was pretty watered down. It's only just now started fighting again with a lot of fervor. Nowadays, they pay lip service to Marx. Most of them extol the name of Ocalan before they're chanting for Communism's big idea. I think a lot of the members may pay Communism some lip service, particularly the older members, but the PKK's focus has most definitely been on the political-social situation of the Kurds, not the country.

The PKK and its equally nasty sister organizations, the Kurdistan Freedom Falcons and Pejak, are really simply hardening their stance back to their 70's days when they were pining for a Kurdish nation. I'm not fool enough to notice that a lot of Socialism may ring well for the disaffected in those areas, and I'm not saying you're wrong. The original goals (and thus members) probably still tend to the old Marxist theories. But the young people actually doing the soldiering in these organizations (and especially judging by the rhetoric used by our two Kurdish subjects above) probably are leaning towards the kind of stilted democracy that most Middle Eastern countries lean on when they talk about democracy.

I mean, the two above were probably seriously propogandists, but they definitely didn't mention anything Marxist. And this is about as close as we can get to the PKK mindset without listening to Ocalan anymore.

Still, I've always appreciated your research. And again, I'm not doubting they certainly began as Marxist and I'm sure it's not 100% changed. But I doubt it's the party's main focus anymore.

JAMES, your cancer analogy is stupid because you are calling Kurds living in Turkey a tumor. Kurds and Turks live in peace and harmony in Turkey. PKK is a terrorist organization and Zeki and others Amar talks about are terrorists. As I said earlier, you are an anonymous coward and have no backbone.

JOAN, check the support Turkey is providing to the U.S. and you'll understand why the U.S. is so sensitive not to lose that support. Do some research before posting your simple arguments and coming across as uninformed. Ever heard of a U.S. Air Force base called Incirlik? Do you know where it is located? Do you know how logistical support for U.S. troops gets to them in Iraq? Hint: It's a country that borders Iraq and it certainly is not Iran or Syria!!! It's also the country that fought along w/ the U.S. in Korea and Afghanistan. Look it up before you post your simple-minded house-wife comments.

DON, Ottomans are history, but you can't hold Turkey responsible for their actions. Try looking at European history (what Germans did to the Jews), or to what happened more recently in Kosova, when the U.S. had to intervene because the lame ass Europeans would not lift a finger to stop the war crimes. How about France's atrocities in Algiers? And what about the U.S. history, with all that happened to the Native Americans in the name of progress, or to all those killed in Viet Nam in the name of fighting communism, or those who are today being killed in Iraq? The destabilized Iraq is in worse shape today than it was in under Saddam, and that's saying a lot because Saddam was a murderer. Did we find any WMD's in Iraq? Do you think the war is for anything other than oil? Read Tom Friedman (NYT) who explains how the current administration has no energy policy to rid the U.S. of dependence on Saudi oil. Instead of the war, the funds could have been used to develop new technologies for energy, and prevented all the loss of human life, American, Iraqi and Kurds. But unfortunately, Bush is an incompetent leader.

It is a shame to see so much kissing on the feet of Turks by our politicians like Bush when you see their people lifting signs calling America a terrorist. What a shame! I can't believe it.

I think it is time to put Ottomans in the history's garbage bin. That is where they belong to. They are history. They have done enough to Europeans, Armenians, Arabs, and of course Kurds. I think anyone who does not know it, should ask Europeans about their crimes and genocides throughout history until now. Enough is enough.

TODD, just because you think it is stupid,it does not mean that it is not true. It sounds like you personally have cancer in your heart too. Keep ignoring the existence of Kurdistan even though it is killing you. Smart boy! You should see a professional to give you some sucide pills because of your hate for Kurds. Whether you like it or not Kurdistan and Kurds exist and will exits. Try to eliminate Kurds and Kurdistan if you can. Those you support are doomed to fail.

K, there is NO place called Kurdistan. There are no jungles in Turkey either, you may be confusing the country w/ Africa! You are a terrorist, and you need to be locked up. You're lucky if you are in Turkey, as Turkey abolished the death penalty several years ago. That's why Ocalan is still alive. Ocalan is a murderer and a baby-killer, but he's being taken care of by the state in his climate-controlled and comfortable cell.

James, your cancer analogy is plain stupid. I was going to analyze it here but it's so full of s**t, doesn't deserve to be dignified. You are full of it as well.

Vic, as a journalist, Amar should have augmented the interview w/ the necessary clarifications. Not everyone reading this article is as enlightened as you, or as aware of the facts. We don't need Amar to tell us the feelings of the people on the street. Amar's efforts are at best subversive, far from any definition of what a journalist should be doing. This is a highly sensitive situation, people are getting killed, it's not child's play, it's not a competition to write the award-winning essay. Amar does not have a dog in this fight, and if he's not going to be objective about it, he needs to stay out of it.

I am really upset that he came into to Turkey, wrote this crap and left. I read the piece one more time following your latest post, and I still don't see it in the manner you portray.

Amar and others on this forum writing from the U.S. are detached from the situation. What if a foreign reporter went to Afghanistan right after a dozen U.S. marines were brutally killed in an ambush, interviewed some people and wrote that the U.S. and NATO forces are killing civilians, that Afghans are not allowed to speak their own language or fly their own flag? As an American, wouldn't you be upset, knowing well that it's all nonsense, and yet, here is this reporter telling the world how these people feel, without providing background for their motives? Wouldn't the reporter look like as if he was trying to justify the ambush to the world?

This is how Amar is viewed by people who know what's going on. I am against censorship, but there has to be some guideline for ethical reporting, at least when the publisher is W.P. or Newsweek.

Your views?

James, easy to be throwing around insults when you are an anonymous coward. You lack backbone.

i cant agree with that one vic-

the iranian students group PJAK has actually joined the PKK in N iraq, but to do so they had to adopt their marxist agenda.
i have seen nowhere any indication that they have changed the core philosophy, just promoted the social issues more loudly.

it started out segregated along ethnic and cultural lines, it hasnt evolved into them.
if it pushed its socialist views forward into the light, i doubt they'd get the support they are asking for from the US.

but they've consistently stuck to their marxist values, so i cannot agree.

however, they have changed their flag- maybe in deference to their US backing.
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/krd%7Dpkk.html

Todd, you missed my point. The point is that Bakshi didn't get his facts wrong, Nuri and Zeki did. Amar didn't come out and say, "And these men were absolutely right!" He put their opinions forward AS WE OUGHT TO HEAR THEM. He didn't water them down or misdirect anyone. He wrote them, and a bevy of comments later, we get a picture of what people are thinking about the comments. But Amar didn't say that these opinions were THE opinion. He just gave them an avenue to speak through.

It's important to understand what Amar is doing, why he's doing it, and why I think you need to redirect your comments. Amar isn't here presenting facts, he's presenting opinions from around the globe about issues pressing America from around the world. The PKK fiasco is just one of those things, and Amar started with the PKKs base of support. Trust me when I tell you I'm at least intelligent enough to read the story and know that it's a little blown out of proportion. And I didn't even need everyone's comments to tell me that!

I think it sealed the deal when he praised the PKK. Saying a terrorist organization reflects your interests isn't a good way to come across as a peaceful victim of society.

And to Victoria, yeah, they started out being Communist. I've never said they still don't bear that banner. But terrorist organizations will change colors often if they find themselves irrelevent. The PKK is taking up the cause of Tukey's disaffected because (surprise surprise) that's how Communist revolutions tend to work. They travel from the bottom up.

Now I can't say for certain that the Communist agenda is still a big part of the PKK. Years later, it's more likely continuing as a liberation arm for the Kurds than as a Communist supporter (that's out of fashion). But even if they are, the PKK isn't stressing a traditional Communist point. Communist nations tend not to carve out countries from larger masses. Not always true, but largely true. They simply take over governments with promises of social equality. If the PKK was fighting with the intention of overthrowing Turkey's government and taking over the country, I'd call them more specifically a Communist terrorist group. But their demand is for a Kurdish state, which is a segregational and social isolationist tack.

Who knows? Maybe they're just confused terrorists. But Marxists talked about social equality and justice by erasing social status. This just doesn't have the hallmarks of a Communist revolution as it pertains to Turkey. Just putting that out there and maybe I'm completely wrong. But this certainly isn't a kind of revolution you treat like a South American Communist overthrow. It's starting to segregate along the lines of culture, so it's a bit more sensical to treat the PKK's aim as a segregationalist society than a socialist one.

Everybody talks about equal freedom for kurds/turks in Turkey

Thats correct. My cousin from my mother's side (a turk) can wear her headscarve in an american college but not in a turkish college

In other words, both turk muslims and kurd muslims are equally repressed in that manner. Thats not freedom

The chinese say that the tibetans have the same rights as the chinese too. And we all believe them, dont we?

Kemalists are old news. Long Live the Justice Party. Lets pray that the turkish generals lose all power in controlling civilian affairs

anonymous aka borat...you are a caricature...everything funnytime for you...funnytime this, funnytime that...you are a child

you attack the messenger but do not disprove the message in any way. nope, no ability to counter-argue what so ever

you say that article is "filled with lies and hatred, biased sick thoughts of an individual." are you sure you didnt miss any other buzzwords? maybe "propoganda, zionism, jealousy". please continue talking like a marxist....big, attack-ful words

i'm simply bringing up that terrotories in that area are hotly disputed. thats a fact

simple yes/no question to you...does the approval by the us govt to give the kurds an autonomous zone in northern iraq threaten you or not?

its a simple yes/no question borat

Do you see the similarities between PKK and Al-Qeada from K's comments? If you skipped it, please read!

Do you see the similarities between PKK and Al-Qeada from K's comments? If you skipped it, please read!

This article is one sided and supporting PKK's dreams.

I think turky has a cancer in its heart and it is the Kurdish problem. Good luck turkey! Everyone knows the end of that cancer. Think people. No wonder it is called turkey.

I think turky has a cancer in its heart and it is the Kurdish problem. Good luck turkey! Everyone knows the end of that cancer. Think people. No wonder it is called turkey.

I think turky has a cancer in its heart and it is the Kurdish problem. Good luck turkey! Everyone knows the end of that cancer. Think people. No wonder it is called Turkey.

IB, that article is more than funny, filled with lies and hatred, biased sick thoughts of an individual.

Kurds and Turks in Turkey live in peace and harmony as brothers. Unemployment is a problem for both sides on the East part of Turkey and Kurds are free to use their language, listen to their own radio, tv and inherit their own culture. They can represent themselves in the parliement, there is no limitation for Kurds in Turkey's democracy. If there are 6 million Kurds in Turkey and they are not happy with the urrent situation, they can get 10% of the seats in parliement and make it right (if there were any wrongs)

K,
You threaten the great country of Turkey with terrorism. You try to divide the Turkish and Kurdish brothers in Turkey. You are making the whole world your enemy. If you believe you are wronged, come to your senses and pursue your rights like civilized people instead of murdering innocent people. If the Turks did all these things you said, provide evidence to the human rights division of Europe and Turkey would be punished. But you are lying so there is no proof.

Turkey doesn't want to invade Northern Iraq, they want to stop the terrorists who have bases there

Turkey is not attacking rebels, it is attacking terrorists who have killed more than 30.000 in last 20 years and 40 people last month.

This is not about which nation writes history. This is about good and evil. And terrorism is evil no matter how you try to justify it.

thank you todd, no- just an opinionated novice

K- are you suggesting overthrowing the trukish government and establishing a communist regime?

or just revenge with no real plan?

Turkey over the past 30 years has burnt jungles of Kurdistan and demolished Kurdish vilages. In other words damaging the economic infrastructure of the region. It is time for PKK to retaliate and damage the economy of Turkey.

Move the war out of Kurdish territories in Iraq and Turkey and move it inside the heartland of Turkish territories in Turkey.

Burn 1 Turkish bridge for every 10 trees burnt
in Kurdistan. Burn 1 factory or power supply for each Kurdish vilage burnt or evacuated by
Turks.

Turkey wants to play with fire. Let it really burn its fingers this time. It is pay back time.

http://kurdistanobserver.servehttp.com/Oct-2007/24-10-07-opinion-goran-tky-playing-with-fire.html

Bosphorus Bridge should be one of the first targets.

i should have included the link again to the article i'm refering to. its not as "funny" as you think

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IJ16Ak02.html

to anonymous......yeah yeah. ha ha i'm so funny. the article writer is funny too. but you are serious!

the mid-east map will change time and time again. mark my words

read the article

those borders are - clearly - not as settled as you think. as the obvious example of iraq shows. a minority sunni ruling native kurds and native shiites? that didnt go too well, did it? you're talking about the external borders of the ottoman empire. i'm talking about the internal ones that were carved up

of course, borders/lands go back and forth...sometimes with treaties, sometimes not

the usa bought alaska from the russians. bought = bartering with money

IB you are a funny guy
Before 85 years ago those lands belonged to Ottomans(Turks) for 700 years and before that it belonged to Turkmen, Roman, Persian, Greek many and many other nations.
You can not barter/take lands from sovereign nations. Period.

a take on the delicate and fake mid-east map...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IJ16Ak02.html

turkey as a remnant of the ottoman empire is only 85 or so years old. we're not talking about an area where borders were settled 2-3 hundred years ago. the kurds got cheated when the ottoman empire was broken up.

like the link above suggests: the turks can give up some land for a kurdistan and it turn can get some land from northern iran where turkic-people live. iran and the rest of the countries could do a little border bartering too. unrealistic? not more so than dividing up the ottoman empire into pseudo-countries and expecting them to stay that way.

Victoria, you are very knowledgeable. The insight I gathered from your posts has been one positive outcome from all this. Are you a researcher?

as i said alan, there are over 40 distinct ethnic groups that make up the fabric of turkey.
nowhere did i insinuate that kurds are immigrants , or point out any alien staus whatsoever.

actually vic- the PKK means literally the peoples communist party

so it is a political party of communists, a fact which seems to be entirely ignored or simply not known

its birth wasnt realy a kurdish liberation organization, but a communist organization

i think people arent aware of this, and confuse it with a freedom for the people group
and certainly many kurds in turkey disagree with the communist identity

When I first read, I was really shocked, t be honest the objectiveness of writer as a journalist has to be questioned. For any to understand the region and what has been going there please go and ask BUT not only to the one party and their opinions, there is a precise distinction between freedom fighters and terrorists, or democracy bringing or invading....please read the history and be objective to he subject. I was hoping to read an objective report not words in the shape of bullets to a divide a nation.

Hey Berry...

Turkey v Kurds ?!!
Turkey hasn't any problem with Kurds. Turkey has a problem with PKK(terrorist group).

But you can add this to the list:

USA v The Countries That Have Oil Resource

victoria

people in turkey are kurds or turks mostly. it means there are 2 main nations in turkey plus some minorities.but kurds are not immigrants, turkey is thier land and home. they have every right to have their freedom and thier langauge to be an official one.

@Alan: Fine, I concede. You are the authority!

you are still denying the fact that, the world has many countries with 2 or more official langaues.i am sure readers will laugh at you simply for your ignorance and smplicity.
i think your brain doesn't accept any new information than the old thing you have in it and i feel sorry for you that you are that simple who sees the world black and white still.simple dude you have no idea how some siple dudes like you make people around the world that amused.

@Vic Van Meter: Vic, the uproar here is about Bakshi getting his facts wrong. Kurdish is not outlawed in Turkey, there is NO Kurdish flag because there is no Kurdistan. There are TV stations, radios and books in Turkey that are in Kurdish. An outside observer who is not in Turkey and who reads this article, will likely think that these are all outlawed in Turkey.

On the other hand, Turkey has completely neglected the Eastern part of the country, due to poor administration, but current government is trying to change that with tax incentives, etc. Of course, it's not going to be solved overnight. Turks and Kurds alike suffer from the effects of past poor governments.

If you ask a well-integrated Kurd in any part of Turkey, they will have nothing to do with having a Kurdistan of their own. They are proud to be a citizen of Turkey, who are of Kurdish origin.

Reason,

Actually, the problem is that we don't get ANY articles like these. All we see here in the states are the opinions of government officials and then mobs in the streets hawking America. We don't get the in-between like this very often and we need to know who would be supporting the PKK.

You have to read the article to know Bakshi isn't trying to justify the PKK. He's taking the opinions from the mouth of a man who supports them. The PKK isn't some kind of self-contained group. People like this story's subject are people we need to know if we're going to be changing minds. Otherwise, when the PKK's wiped out, another organization or two will take its place. Terrorism is a hydra, and you need to know how to kill the base.

Nowhere does Amar say he THINKS this man is right. He just put the subjects ideas on the forum. Don't complain that it advocates terrorism. As literate adults (I hope) you're supposed to be able to read something and form your own opinion on it. We get the Turkish view of the Kurdish minority all the time (it's public policy) so to get this information is refreshing. I'm not stupid enough to read this and take this man at his word that the PKK is just a liberty front for the Kurdish people. But if you can't read opposing opinions without shoving it away, you're only advancing the cause of ignorance.

On another note, I think I've said a few times that people are generally murderous by nature. And then people don't believe me. But time goes on, tempers flare, and we start bringing up all the people killed by both sides in any conflict. The Kurds and Turks have a difference of opinion on who should control their land. Unfortunately, this isn't one of those things that goes half and half. Territorial disputes are always the worst. And they always bring out the best examples of our human behavior.

The PKK should be demolished and I don't think the Kurds should get their own cut of country wherever they'd like it. Maybe the Turks need to treat the Kurdish minority with a bit more respect (to be honest, I don't trust any of the Turkish or Kurdish accusations so far just because of the vitriol). They should be allowed to display their heritage if it's that important, but to say that every ethnic identity should be able to have its own nation just because they want one is foolhardy.

But, instead of making this just a political problem, human nature gets in the way and we get, ta daaa, the PKK. Why lobby peacefully for political gains when you can kill, terrorize, and steal? The PKK is the easy way out for the Kurdish political motion because it strikes at the basest human nature. If we kill enough Turks, they'll give us our country.

This kind of low-rent thinking is at the root of every cultural war and persecution. Not all Turks want to suppress the Kurdish right to expression and not all Kurds want to murder other Turkish citizens to get at what they want. Nuri and Zeki are both like this, believing the PKK will accomplish their goals in the most natural of ways until America takes notice and....helps?

I don't know about OTHER parts of the country, but I haven't spoken to an American YET who would back the Kurdish people in getting their own country. Not ONE. So outside the few instances where someone says they're American and would back the Kurds on these forums (hint, I don't take them really seriously), most Americans would rather back up our political ally rather than give their minority a chunk of their country. Nobody is going to rehash the Israeli mistake, especially with a NATO member's land. These two can wait all they want, America won't lift a finger to help them. It's definitely not politically expedient and the Kurds have nothing to offer us.

Let's take the story for what it is and quit complaining that we have to read it. If you don't want to read editorials like this which will bring you minority opinions, then quit reading the news and at least have an excuse for ignorance. Amar's not in Van looking for a government opinion to pat egos. He's there looking for the roots of the PKK crisis and the anti-American backlash. Excuse him if he didn't belittle Nuri and Zeki in his editorial because even the misguided deserve a modicum of journalistic respect.

I think we can all grow up for the time being and read Zeki's thoughts without scowling at the Post for making us read them. If we don't figure out how to change Zeki's mind, the PKK isn't going to be the last terrorist legion that takes up this banner.

@ST PAUL ST:

Exactly my point. Bakshi is touring the world on WP funds and in return, we get cr@p like this.

Victoria: Thanks for the support. That language is a cohesive factor is well-put. French Quebec came close to secede from Canada. I'm not clear on the current status of U.S./Syria relations. The sad thing is, under the Bush administration, the U.S. is losing its credibility in the world. I attribute this failure to the administration, and hope things will change when the administration changes. What do you think?

@Alan: Secede means to break off, to withdraw. I know it's too big a word for you, so I did your homework for you.

This is a terrible piece of journalism I'd say. I'm wondering why WP is still paying for this cr@p.

FIONA- that is something ive been commenting upon- up until last week, when it was mentioned(which is never) in american media- the PKK have been treated by the media as terrosrists.
magically, 1 or 2 days ago, they suddenly became 'rebels' in the press.

the word rebel to americans is very romantic- after all, our 'founding fathers' were rebels and 'freedom fighters' against the british (no offense fiona)

since most americans have no idea who they even are- they readily accept this definition (with its positive association) and file it into our short memories until the tv tells us next week thay are terrorists again, whereupon, well dutifully hate them.

DILAN, id say yours is the most personal account of relevance ive seen here-

ALAN- really you cannot expect other people to do your homework to prove your point for you-

why should anyone else(especially someone with an opposite opinion) work harder to prove your point than you do?

go google it and post the link

for instance, im america- we are considering drafting a bill into law to make english the official language-

turkey is a pluralistic society with more than 40 different ethnic groups.

like america, many differing peoples have to find some common gorund.

language transcends all other isms in tis abilty to help people form a cohesive unity.

an example is banglesdesh-

formerly east pakistan, one would assume its unity would be with its muslim neighbors in pakistan-
being united by a religious identity.
not all bengalis are muslim either.
but no- its cohesion is due to its common language.

from reading these boards, ive seen many people claim that in turkey there's a kurdish language radio station, and kurdish language tv station, and kurds who care to speak kurdish if they want.

but that doesnt detract from the fact that if kurds want to keep their identity intact- they have to do it themsleves.

but, like in america- if they want to reep the benefits of turkish society- and be inclusive in it- then they will have to fdind their own ways to keep thier culture alive, like so many others have in so many places.

besides, canada by your reasoning should be using the language of the indigenous people, the inuits- instead of the european colonists,
and only quebec, not canada is french.

dilan also raised an interesting point- due to his actually living in turkey- instead of an outside poser like me commenting on what i know from reading- a poor substitute for life experience.

the PKK is a COMMUNIST organization-
and is indeed virulently opposed to a democratic turkey.
this is where the US hypocrisy really shines in all its dull glory-

we had to decide in iraq, and still havent decided yet.
who do we hate more, the sunni, or the shia?

we hated the shia in iran in 1979 when they took 80 hostages. that was clear and easy.

but we loved the shia when we went to iraq- being oppressed by the evildoer sadaam hussein-
we were there friends and liberty loving liberators-
we didnt think once about the kurds