Comments (139)

The US should withdraw all of its forces to include those in NATO headquarters from Turkey in order to improve relations with Turkey. Under current conditions are forces are at risk of attack due to rising anti American sentiment. The US should also not involve itself in Turkey's efforts to obtain EU membership. That is between the EU and Turkey and the US should not be involved.

@ Umit & Victoria

Thank you for pointing out your evasive tactics on the topic of Turkey, and the errors that have culminated to bring the country to its present state of limbo.
None of the readers expected you to present rational arguments to prove your case. I for one, would have expected more from you Unit. Given that you show a heightened intelligence, your education prevents you from thinking. I am also disappointed that after you read the Human Rights Watch reports, you have addressed not one. Is it that you fear being jailed for responding?

---Article 301

As for Victoria, it would appear that her ability to copy/paste irrelevant information, greatly overrides her ability to read. It is a fact that any monkey can be trained to copy/paste, but thinking requires some human abilities that are shown lacking in Victoria's irrational, erratic, disjointed style.

What you both show in your actions, is that you have little faith that people can read and draw conclusions based on the information at their disposal. It might be interesting to note that the format of PostGlobal is one where people are obliged to read and as such, can judge on their own what is said.

On a related matter: Umit, I would refrain from issuing subtle threats if I were you. We are not the only ones following this discussion and you would be surprised to discover that your comments are understood both here and in other discussions on Post Global.

****

For anyone who is truly interested in formulating conclusions on Turkey's present state of denial, they can read through the thousands of human rights violations as listed in the HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH ON TURKEY that I have posted above.

...And to address Victoria's assertion on this issue, the latest entries to the HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH are from:
October 16, 2007
July 19, 2007
July 18, 2007
June 28, 2007
April 13, 2007
.... and so on and so forth; approximately one entry/month, dating back to January 1, 1992, since there is a shortage of space on the database to display earlier cases.

Given the lack of respect for human dignity shown by the Turkish elite, the problem is made worse by the denial shown by the Turkish propagandists to avert our gaze from the truth.

Those who read will be able to tell.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

spidon- ive asked you several times - starting mildly curious, (but polite) to be responded to so personally insulting and vehemently, that i am really curious as to your motives.

they (as ive noted) cant be pruely for the sake of humanitarianism, as a true humanitarian has compassion for all-not a select group-

and you never talk about the kurds- or the armenians (which a humanitarian would also)
unless it serves as a segue into turk-bashing.
your obsessive concentration on convincing everyone else to hate turks, hasnt had that effect on me-

but it has led me to wonder what makes you in particular hate them so much.

clearly its not encountering a 19 year old report on abuse

but has much deeper motives

i have nothing against greeks- im hand feeding a 2 week old kitten (which is quite job, believe me) that im giving to the greeks down the street in 6 weeks

i have no reason to hate turks- i know alot of them, spent every day last ramadan praying and eating with them

i have nothing agianst kurds, i took one into my home for a few months and totally supported them when they ht american shores, AND helped them marry my best friend!

(well, i did know one really creepy pervo macedonian guy- but he called himself turk, and i didnt find out he was macedonian until after hed moved)

so whats up with you, dude?

you hate truks, well, ok, we get that.

but why is it so important to you that you get others to hate them too?

would it justify your own racism to do so?

you cannot- even if every person agreed with you- racism and prejudice are ugly things.

so whats up with you?

Spiridon- If you want to really understand the foolishness of your so ill-informed argument, tune into a lengthy interview given by Professor George Joffe who is a Research Fellow at Cambridge University Centre for International Studies, specialising in Middle Eastern Affairs.

http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/current/audioonly/lnl_20071017.mp3

This goes for anyone who is really interested in understanding the situation from an independent, academic, unbiased point of view, unlike the one we have been getting from Spiros.

@ UMIT, November 7, 2007 5:10 AM

I am not certain whether you missed something here or is it that you have an plan to divert the topic, to one that is more suitable to your racist agenda.
I do not see how Greece is on topic in this discussion and you appear to be inventing stats on offences that have no bearing to what Turkey is doing presently and has traditionally done to the entire area, resulting in too many conflicts in the Balkans. I am not sure we want to see Turkey do it again in Iraq.

Turkey is presently poised to do to Iraq what it has traditionally done to all of her neighbours, not only during the Ottoman period but continuously to this day. These examples are not necessary here since that is not on topic, but just to point out the Turkish modus, it might be interesting for those with a keen eye to research on their own.

Turkey has a great opportunity to experience a fair deal of growth through this experience but instead, uses deflective tactics, historical lies, extortion of her allies, broken promises and angry displays of red flagged, underemployed youths to show us that temper tantrums are acceptable in diplomacy. Do you know how laughable it all seems to an outsider?

It may be time for Turkey to experience a real change as opposed to the 'hat change' that occurred when the Ottoman Empire was replaced by what you now consider a 'democracy'. We do not think a 'hat change' is good enough since actions are more important than the propaganda we are force-fed from Turkey. This may work in convincing the undereducated masses of Turkey but to the rest of us it is laughable.

Umit, instead of making an effort in correcting the deplorable Turkish Human Rights Record, you are so ready to side-step the issue by angrily accusing others of human rights abuses. I am not sure you will understand this but I believe you have the mirror facing the wrong way.

Turn the mirror the right way Umit and look at what Turkey is up to before making wild accusations and pointing to irrelevant issues. Since you are having a hard time with this part, I will point you in the right direction. You will find below, a link to THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH.

hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=turkey

Copy/paste the above line into your browser and you will find the thousands of violations by Turkey, that are ongoing given the lack of responsibility shown, even by yourself, to realize that your country has severe problems.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Spidon-
Your hidden agenda is as clear as your very pedestrian argument.

Your assertion number 1:

Turkey has` a long history of human rights violations and its neighbours dont.

Rebuttle:
Check Human rights watchdog report on Greece's record on:

Human rights violations against its minorities and curtailing freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of cultural and ethnic identity, namely the ethnic Turks and Macedonians.

These violations are institutionalised.

Greece has been enlsiting under age soldiers since the Cyprus war. However, we both know that this was not much of a war.

These reports date back to 1990 to present.

Your assertion number 2:

Turkey is friendless because of its record on human rights.

Rebuttle:
Where is your evidence for this? I am not even going to go beyond this point as your assertion is just baseless, unless of course you have access to an international survey of all the countries who have been asaked this question and all of them gave a negative response.

Ironically, if you read the Greek and Turksih newspapers you will find that they have become increasingly friendly towards one another, notwithstanding Greece's objection to the formation of the Turkish-Cyprus state.

Turkey has just elected a democratically sanctioned government. I dont see the Army's influence here, do you?

I can almost anticipate your response to this as it will be similar to the last one. That I just dont understand. Perhaps...or perhaps that you might want to reflect on your own insecurity by trying to muzzle opposition by charging them with not understanding the issues.

Again, let me make it clear to you that in the realm of international politics alliances will change as the political climate changes. Turkey, the US and Israel are political realists as is every other country-except, it would seem, you.

Greece has been violating the rights of its minorities since gaining its independence from Turkey. I wonder what your view would be if the minority Turks and Macedonians, who have been denied their basic human rights under the Greek state, decided to take up arms and killed 30,000 Greeks in the name of wanting to create their own independent state, and after each attack pulled back into Macedonia and Turkey for protection. What would Greece response be?

"Think about it"

@ Victoria,

Why do you want to bring Greece and Cyprus into this discussion?

I never made mention of either of these two countries here but you seem to want to talk about them. I am sure that talking about Turkey is difficult under the circumstances since this friendless country is presently being treated like a muzzled dog.
I am not alone in saying that we are tired of petty dictatorships that pretend to be democratic while they abuse the very principles of humanity and coexistence between people.

While you think about the ramifications of Turkey's actions in the lead up to the let down on the matter of the Iraq invasion, you might want to look at some very telling details about this country's human rights record:

THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH
hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=turkey

You will notice that there are countless violations (and this database is only between 1992 to 2007) of serious human rights abuses in Turkey in the above link, dating as far back as January 1, 1992, with a report labelled 'NOTHING UNUSUAL: THE TORTURE OF CHILDREN IN TURKEY':
"Helsinki Watch has documented scores of cases of torture in Turkey since 1982, and Turkish lawyers who represent detainees claim that police routinely torture between 80 and 90 percent of political suspects and about 50 percent of ordinary criminal suspects, including children. Nothing Unusual documents the torture of children under the age of eighteen in Turkey."

The most recent article in the database is dated October 16, 2007, labelled TURKEY: END LEGAL ACTION AGAINST GAY RIGHTS GROUP.
"A legal challenge by the governor of Istanbul seeking to close down Lambda Istanbul, a gay rights organization, threatens basic freedoms of association and expression, Human Rights Watch said today."

This is followed by July 19, 2007 TURKEY: HUMAN RIGHTS CONCERNS IN THE LEAD UP TO JULY PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS:
"This briefing paper examines the implications of military interference for human rights, as well as a number of other current human rights concerns, including restrictions on freedom of speech and the press, the harassment and prosecution of Kurdish political parties, ongoing problems of impunity for state officials, and police ill-treatment."

****

Please tell me how a country with such human rights violations can coexist with its neighbours. I am sure you will agree that Turkey is friendless aside from the US and Israel, who are being blamed within Turkey for Turkey's problems as we speak.
Also explain to me what is racist about making reference to the violations listed above and in The Human Rights Watch. You called me racist but I would recommend that you check your credentials on the matter before you engage in name calling. Supporting the racist and brutal treatment of minorities and special rights groups in Turkey is the same as supporting the acts of injustice and brutality against them on racial grounds. I would stay clear of accusatory remarks of racism if I were you.

I hope that answers a question or two since you seem to have not read the posts you requested of me the last time I pointed you in the right direction.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

no spidon- despite your childish and mean spirited accusations of deception, and lying on my part- degenerating into name calling-

it still doesnt distract from the fact that yu simply cannot answer logically

now you write a whole post about what you think i say, further nonsensical accusations-
none of which answer any points.

the only reference you made was to a 20 year old article in human rights watch

i just havent allowed you to hijck this question into endless racist attacks

if you have a point, make it and dont worry about what other people have to say-

your motives are so transparent

turkey took cyprus 34 years ago, you're still mad and you hate turks.

im an american so i an criticize my own government if i choose-

today erdogan came to visit bush, and bush assured him that the US is backing turkey in regards to the PKK

now THAT is actually the topic!

however, i have little faith that the US will keep its word,

as an american, i know my people and leaders
and ill comment on THAT too, if i like.

or not, as yours is a rather boring rant to keep coming back to.

Spidon-a 'balanced' discussion on any topic inevitably involves some objective research and weighing up all sides of the arguments presented rather than proving a thesis based on a particular bias.

So far, you have managed to filter any information presented that might threaten your predispositions on the topic of Turkey's right to defend itself. The fact that you have failed to acknowledge the incontrevertable validity of some of the comments posted by Victoria, as she has done with some of your more plausable assertions, only goes to further demonstrate your unreasoned bias.

It is unfortunate that this discussion cannot be progressed any further while you insist on denying yourself any level of introspection.

SO , military meddling, didnt matter di it? the free mandate of the people swept it asied and voted gul into office on the 22nd. 4 days after your article

back on topic spidon-

the conversation seems to have gotten sidelined
i believe the current topic is the PKK,
terroristic attacks on turks- their rigt to defend themself, kurdish rights and the validity of their use of force to attain their goals.

the israeli support and training of kurds in the hopes of establishing and extending their own bases in this area

but- the united states has betrayed turkey-
it has also betrayed the kurds (regarding sadaam's massacre of them)

2004-
"Betrayal and violence became the norm in the next two decades. Inside Iraq, the Kurds were brutally repressed by Saddam Hussein, who used airpower and chemical weapons against them. In 1984, the Kurdistan Workers Party, or P.K.K., initiated a campaign of separatist violence in Turkey that lasted fifteen years; more than thirty thousand people, most of them Kurds, were killed. The Turkish government ruthlessly crushed the separatists, and eventually captured the P.K.K.’s leader, Abdullah Ocalan. Last month, the P.K.K., now known as the Kongra-Gel, announced that it was ending a five-year unilateral ceasefire and would begin targeting Turkish citizens once again."

i dont know about you spidon- but killing 30,000 of your own people for a piece of real estate is pretty cold blooded and doesnt lend much credibility to the cause.

ill let the article speak for itself-
these are some snippets because i thought it was such an exceelent (and prescient) asessment)

SEYMOUR HERSCH OF THE NEW YORKER

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/06/28/040628fa_fact?currentPage=1

Israel has been training Kurdish commando units to operate in the same manner and with the same effectiveness as Israel’s most secretive commando units, the Mistaravim.
However, a senior C.I.A. official acknowledged in an interview last week that the Israelis were indeed operating in Kurdistan. He told me that the Israelis felt that they had little choice: “They think they have to be there.” Asked whether the Israelis had sought approval from Washington, the official laughed and said, “Do you know anybody who can tell the Israelis what to do? They’re always going to do what is in their best interest.” The C.I.A. official added that the Israeli presence was widely known in the American intelligence community."

Israeli involvement in Kurdistan is not new. Throughout the nineteen-sixties and seventies, Israel actively supported a Kurdish rebellion against Iraq, as part of its strategic policy of seeking alliances with non-Arabs in the Middle East. In 1975, the Kurds were betrayed by the United States, when Washington went along with a decision by the Shah of Iran to stop supporting Kurdish aspirations for autonomy in Iraq.

There are fears that the Kurds will move to seize the city of Kirkuk, together with the substantial oil reserves in the surrounding region... the Kurds consider Kirkuk and its oil part of their historic homeland. “If Kirkuk is threatened by the Kurds, the Sunni insurgents will move in there, along with the Turkomen, and there will be a bloodbath,” an American military expert who is studying Iraq told me. “And, even if the Kurds do take Kirkuk, they can’t transport the oil out of the country, since all of the pipelines run through the Sunni-Arab heartland.”

. “It would be a new Israel—a pariah state in the middle of hostile nations.”

“Israel’s immediate goal after June 30th(2004)is to build up the Kurdish commando units to balance the Shiite militias—especially those which would be hostile to the kind of order in southern Iraq that Israel would like to see,”... The Kurdish armed forces, known as the peshmerga, number an estimated seventy-five thousand troops, a total that far EXCEEDS the known Sunni and Shiite militias.

“But the growing Kurdish-Israeli relationship began upsetting the Turks no end. Their issue is that the very same Kurdish commandos trained for Iraq could infiltrate and attack in Turkey.”

‘What will the behavior of Iran be if there is an independent Kurdistan with close ties to Israel?’ Iran does not want an Israeli land-based aircraft carrier”—that is, a military stronghold—“on its border.”

If Iraq is divided, America cannot explain this to the world.” The official compared the situation to the breakup of Yugoslavia, but added, “In the Balkans, you did not have oil.” He said, “The lesson of Yugoslavia is that when you give one country independence everybody will want it.” If that happens, he said, “Kirkuk will be the Sarajevo of Iraq. If something happens there, it will be impossible to contain the crisis.”

(insertion mine)
, Gul (THEN A FOREIGN MINISTER, NOW PRESIDENT) described Israeli activities, and the possibility of an independent Kurdistan, as “presenting us with a choice that is not a real choice—between survival and alliance.”

THIS WAS WRITTEN IN 2004

spidon- if you dont take the trouble to post the links that can be utilized- it really doesnt add any weight to put an address there

you think others will work for you to prove your point?

this may give you some insight into the situation spidon-

you paint a very simplistic 'turks baaad' picture

one could do the same with any country-

Greece: Urgent Action Required on Trafficking
Trafficking of women into Greece for forced prostitution is a serious human rights problem the government has failed to address, Human Rights Watch said today.
July 24, 2001 Press Release
Printer friendly version

Trafficking of Migrant Women for FORCED PROSTITUTIONinto Greece
In this memorandum, human rights watch criticizes the Greek government for punishing victims while their traffickers enjoy impunity. Trafficking victims are often apprehended by the police, detained, and deported without getting justice for the abuses they suffered while traffickers and their accomplices are rarely held accountable, the memorandum said.
July 24, 2001 Memorandum

Greece Investigates Detention Conditions
In December 2000, Human Rights Watch released a memorandum to the government of Greece on conditions of detention for migrants awaiting deportation in the Alexandras Avenue detention center in Athens. Based primarily on an article in the Greek daily Ta Nea detailing our findings and submissions to the U.N., the Athens public prosecutor initiated an investigation into conditions for foreigners in the Alexandras center to determine whether the Greek police should be charged for the abusive treatment.
July 1, 2001 Advocacy Impact

Greece: CHILD SOLDIERS Global Report 2001
From the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers
There are indications of under-18s in government armed forces as volunteers may serve from the age of 17. There is no armed conflict in the country but Greece remains in a state of general mobilisation. Since 20 July 1976 Greece has been in a continuous state of general mobilisation owing to the Cyprus conflict and tension with neighbouring Turkey.
June 12, 2001 Multi Country Report

Greece: Immigration Bill Violates Human Rights
The draft immigration bill under consideration by the Greek parliament violates migrants' rights and threatens refugee protection.
February 5, 2001 Press Release
Printer friendly version

Human Rights Watch Comments on Greek Immigration Bill
Human Rights Watch is writing in regard to the immigration bill currently under consideration by the Greek parliament. We recognize that the bill's intent is to improve upon past laws regarding the residence and employment of foreigners in Greece, and to meet the challenge of managing migration into the country.

BUT ALL THI FINGER POINTING REALLY DOESNT ADDRESS THE ISSUE

SO, LETS GET BACK ON TOPIC-

@ Victoria,

I also forgot to mention the following link below:
It is from The Human Rights Watch report on Turkey: Violations.

****
hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=turkey
****

You will find such tittles as

Turkey: Military Meddling Mars Run-Up to Elections: July 18, 2007
"...Turkish military’s interference in the political arena has threatened progress on human rights in the country..."

Turkey: Dink Murder Trial a Test for Judiciary: June 28, 2007
"...In the 18 months preceding his murder, officials in Istanbul and Trabzon also reportedly failed to act on numerous police intelligence reports revealing a plan to murder Dink."

Turkey: Displaced Villagers Denied Fair Compensation: December 20, 2006
"...the Turkish government is failing to provide fair compensation for hundreds of thousands of mainly Kurdish villagers displaced by the military’s brutal counterinsurgency campaigns in the southeast..."

Turkey: Letter to Minister Aksu calling for the abolition of the village guards:
"...The Turkish government must take immediate steps to abolish the system of village guards, which has given rise to some of the most serious human rights violations in southeast Turkey, and continues to present an obstacle to the return of displaced villagers in that area."

Turkey: Anti-Terror Law Used Against Peaceful Activists:
"...three Kurdish activists on anti-terrorism charges after they attempted to stage a peaceful protest near the Iraq border calls into question the Turkish leadership’s commitment to human rights reforms, Human Rights Watch said today in a letter to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan."

Turkey: Case Against Novelist Threatens Freedom of Expression: September 29, 2005
"...Human Rights Watch was surprised and disappointed to learn that the state prosecutor has opened the proposed case against Orhan Pamuk for “insulting Turkishness” under article 301 of the criminal code." (The Novel Prize winner for Literature 2007)

A Matter of Power
State Control of Women’s Virginity in Turkey: June 1, 1994
"...An investigation of the prevalence of forcible virginity control exams and the role of the government in conducting or tolerating such exams, this report cites several separate incidents in the spring of 1992 when young females committed suicide after authorities ordered them to submit to examinations of their hymens."

***

This last one was on page 8 and is one of the oldest listed. The other ones are quite recent.

Is it reasonable to assume that a country that behaves in such ways against its very citizens has any international claim toward brutalizing them and further; and wanting to invade a foreign country with the intent of brutalizing the people there?

The conclusions on this matter are personal to those that are able to read.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

@ Victoria, November 1, 2007 2:07 PM

Please direct your attention to the following article (I am quoting The Human Rights Watch report on Turkey vis-a-vis Iraq from 2003):

hrw.org/backgrounder/eca/turkey/turkey_violations.pdf

spidon- youve mentioned this thesis before-
why dont you provide the information on it-

Once again (with some additions), since it is of the greatest importance to the topic at hand:

1) I have found a very well researched thesis from 1988 that describes Turkey as having between 15,000 and 20,000 political prisoners. It is important to note that the figures cannot be properly tallied since Turkey refuses to provide them. I suspect that the problem since then has worsened based on the Islamist government in power and the agenda they enforce versus the secular modus of the government when the above figures were sited. The other reason I believe the figure to be very much higher, is that the relationship the state has with the minorities like the Kurds these days has worsened since then.
I would be very happy if some savvy reader proved me wrong but would like to know the recent data on Turkey's human rights violations and tally on the political prisoners.

2) I am very curious to read other people's thoughts on Turkey's human rights defence. The European Union has accused Turkey for lacking the basic principles and institutions to acknowledge human rights and protections, and it is one of the contentious issues that still keeps Turkey out of the EU, even after 40 years of trying.

My question for the present, aside from the matter of the Armenian Genocide:
The basic issue in question here is Turkey's brutality toward the minorities and special interest groups.

Does this policy issue contribute to the "Kurdish Problem" as Turkey has labelled it?

As well, since the topic has been raised:
We have discovered through their Nationalist website, that Turkey is intending to invade Iraq with the 'legitimacy' it 'believes it has' to the territory now occupied by the Kurdish people.

Why is Turkey intent on invading Iraq, and is the reason to occupy an area where Turkey believes it has historical claim to having?

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

@ UMIT: October 30, 2007 9:40 AM

How can one discuss factually the problem of citizenship in Turkey and forget to mention human rights? As you are well aware, Turkey's problems today are as a direct result of the brutalization the minorities have suffered, not only under the present 'secular' (noted for doubt), Islamist government, but also during the Ottoman era. There has been little change (other than the hat change) since Atatürk, in the way the state deals with minorities and special interest groups.

Why is that?

Why is it also that when the tough questions about human rights come up, there is no attempt at an answer? All we get from Turkey is the blame on the rest of the world and total deflection.

Why is that?

I want someone to explain to me why Turkey has done nothing in the 40 years that it has sought membership into the EU to correct its human rights record, which is at par with some of the most backward 3rd world, dictatorial regimes.

Can anyone talk to me about human rights and how it affects the outcome of peaceful coexistence among people?

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

It is amazing that Turkey's sovereign right to defend itself from terrorism is met with such thinly veiled bias. The US can take it upon itself to go into Iraq and wreck havoc in the name of a blatant lie, and can try to invade Vietnam, attempt to assasinate foreign heads of state, i.e Castro, suppport the despotic regimes in El Salvador and Chile with catastrophic consequences for its civilians, and then have this self-righteous pontification from the likes of Lonewolf, David etal is just something else.

Whilst two wrongs don't make it right, as we must endevour to find political solutions, but it must be stressed that those who continue to live in glass houses should not throw stones.

There is no doubt policy mistakes have been made by Turkey. This is to be expected as any country that lives in a region full of tension and conflict is bound to make some tough decisions. This is not limited to Turkey. In fact, a review of recent history would suggest that Turkey has been one of the most stable countries in the region.Again, lets take a historical perspective on some of the policies of the so-called 'more enligtened' countries around the globe: How does the Russian treatment of Cechniyans compare, or the French government's state-backed policy to murderously sabotage Greenpeace vessel, the Rainbow Warrior which killed two activists. I am not even going to mention the US as the list is too extensive.

My point above is lets not label Turkey. Her policy decisions do not necessarily constitute its citizenship. If this is a debate designed to better understand the context of the current conflict then lets stick to it and hope that we will all be better for it.

Turkey is forgetful of a lot more than the billions of dollars it continues to collect.

It has forgotten the Armenians and it is now ready to rewrite the history on the Kurds, while it is actively making claim to the territories the Kurdish people hold in Northern Iraq. Their attempts at invasion is only proof.

Turkey is very forgetful but most profoundly forgotten are human rights in that country.

****

For the now, I would like to have anyone with knowledge of the following two matters, contribute and bring this discussion to a whole other level.

1) I have found a very well researched thesis from 1988 that describes Turkey as having between 15,000 and 20,000 political prisoners. It is important to note that the figures cannot be properly tallied since Turkey refuses to provide them. I suspect that the problem since then has worsened based on the Islamist government in power and the agenda they enforce versus the secular modus of the government when the above figures were sited. The other reason I believe the figure to be very much higher, is that the relationship the state has with the minorities like the Kurds these days has worsened since then.
I would be very happy if some savvy reader proved me wrong but would like to know the recent data on Turkey's human rights violations and tally on the political prisoners.

2) I am very curious to read other people's thoughts on Turkey's human rights defence. The European Union has accused Turkey for lacking the basic principles and institutions to acknowledge human rights and protections, and it is one of the contentious issues that still keeps Turkey out of the EU, even after 40 years of trying.

My question for the present, aside from the matter of the Armenian Genocide:
The basic issue in question here is Turkey's brutality toward the minorities and special interest groups.

Does this policy issue contribute to the "Kurdish Problem" as Turkey has labelled it?

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

I think Turkey has forgotten about the 25 billion
dollar IMF bailout(US taxpayer is largest contributor to the IMF). Turks should support
American troops and America. As the old saying goes. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Also don't forget where you get your military hardware from

@ BEA & DAVID,

Thank you for your contributions to the topic. It is incredibly vital that we have first hand accounts. Thank you for your courage and persistence.

BTW, BEA, I am a fan.

I will repeat the matter for anyone who wants to contribute further:
I am very curious to read other people's thoughts on Turkey's human rights defence. The European Union has accused Turkey for lacking the basic principles and institutions to acknowledge human rights and protections, and it is one of the contentious issues that still keeps Turkey out of the EU, even after 40 years of trying.

My question:
The basic issue in question here is Turkey's brutality toward the minorities and special interest groups.

Does this policy issue contribute to the "Kurdish Problem"?

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

The kinnings of the 15 soldiers was staged by the turkish army.All of tthe 15 soldioers killed were kurds or alevis.
Turkey s aim is to invade northern iraq to prevent kirkuk becoming kurdish.

I have to agree, David, that there are very many taboos in Turkey which people are prevented from talking about or choose to ignore. Then, of course, I have to wonder if there are any countries on earth who do not have their secrets, misinterpretations or plain denial of what is in their history. Since we have both had first hand knowledge of some doings by our mere presence at Incirlik, I expect our perspective is somewhat different than most.

I wrote about the PKK and the rising tension in Turkey on Arabisto at http://www.arabisto.com/p_blogEntry.cfm?blogID=55&blogEntryID=872

In Turkey the "PKK" means any Kurd who stands up for themselves and their identity.

I served two tours with the US Air Force in southeaster Turkey. So many myths have been developed that need exposure and refutation.

Firstly the only successful strategy that Ankara had in suppressing Kurdish identity was very violent cleansing of entire towns. They did so with paramilitary "local guards" who were nothing short of war criminals and Mafiosos. The actual Turkish Army (TAF) garrisoned areas but was never successful on its own.

Our own military intelligence was very aware of regular killings by the Ankara supported paramilitary of Kurdish rights workers, teachers, etc. One day in Turkey the Turkish people will realize that the number of deaths spoken of is more than 30,00 and the great majority is the outright state murder of Kurdish citizens who never touched any weapon.

There are so many taboos and forbidden histories in Turkey.

I have read many views on this string and find truth and lies throughout, perspectives on target and not fully informed. I do not consider myself an expert either, but everyone has a right to an opinion from what they do know or feel. It is best at times to keep some of our opinions to ourselves lest we fill with hate or lead others to do so; hate can solve nothing as we see around the world.

Amar Bakshi searches for facts through interviews and explorations--perspectives. Just because he happens to find a Kurdish person to speak with in Van does not mean he went looking for one but probably just went up to people to talk to them. Some obviously did not want to talk and others did and they too have a perspective.

When I approach someone or meet someone new, I don't first say "oh, this is a Kurd" or "this is a Turk." Do you?

A political situation and those governments involved in the decision-making don't always make the best decisions. America is surely not the fault of everything in the world and should not be blamed as such; yet, they should not be called on every time something occurs in the world whether it is military might or money required.

Conversely, Turkey cannot claim innocence either because it is a known fact that no Turkish government until now has put any money into eastern Turkey. When I visited the Van area a few years ago, I was shocked along with all my colleagues to see what we did. No schools in villages and children not attending school; people living in squalor without indoor toilets; shared ovens for cooking, one teacher to 50 kids who among them only had 10 books and pencils to share.

Further, when I was in the military at Incirlik, we knew there were daily bombing missions by the Turks in eastern Turkey and we were told to stay out of it. The Turks wanted us to stay out of it. Throughout this same time whole villages were cleared, many lost their lives and family were no longer whole. We see in Istanbul today the remains of those families who still live on the streets.

At that time Turkey had little money to build the country, but the decision was made to take what they had and build up western Turkey, right or wrong. It does not mean, however, that they should continue not investing in a full third of the country.

The PKK all but disappeared for a few years prior to the Iraq War and tourism began in earnest again in the east, only to be eclipsed by the quagmire next door. The PKK resurrected itself this time stronger than before and not just affecting east Turkey but many other areas as well. Yes, they need to and should fight the PKK. The question is, however, is it the time to go into Iraqi territory with guns blazing. It is, afterall, the only area in Iraq that has been somewhat quiet through all this time.

Also, while it could be the Americans duty to fight the PKK now because it is affecting another part of Iraq and an ally next door, the PKK was never fighting with insurgents, Al Quaeda and other militants in Iraq, and thus not what mattered most in the fight to get Iraq under control. In other words, it was only right to focus on the factions which has destroyed Iraq instead of going into predominantly peaceful areas and starting something.

Now, with Turkey wanting to bomb the PKK back to the stone ages on Iraqi territory, one must wonder why they want to pick their fight with the PKK now when they've had so many years to do just that. At the same time, I can understand that the escalation by the PKK has upped the anty knowing full well that the Americans won't want to come west to fight in an area where essentially no problems have existed, to speak of.

So the dilemma is on Turkey's back now. Will going into Iraq finally stop the PKK? If so, go but do so at great risk to relations with others. Will going against the wishes of the Iraqis and Americans create more of a quagmire not to be resolved for years? Possibly, because it can bring the PKK into the middle of something they don't want to be a part of, and at the same time, bring the Iraq War onto Turkish land. And, at the end of it all, should Turkey not have solved the PKK problem, they may have, in fact, created yet another problem for themselves and damaged their reputation?

I wax poet on a lot more on my blog at remarkable solutions blog dot com.

Very well stated Yabanci,

I am not proud to admit that you are a better man than me. I have to say that I was 'very displeased' and visibly so, with Victoria's attempts to sabotage the discussion and get it to degenerate into a yelling match.

I would like to recommend that if she does not participate in a rational and functional way in the discussion, we should ignore her. Her attempts to limit free discussion were tolerated semi-politely (OK, a bit roughly by me since she offended my reason), but enough is enough for now.

Peace!

****

I would still like to reinstate the topic I addressed above which I believe has great bearing in the issue at hand.

****

I am very curious to read other people's thoughts on Turkey's human rights defence. The European Union has accused Turkey for lacking the basic principles and institutions to acknowledge human rights and protections, and it is one of the contentious issues that still keeps Turkey out of the EU, even after 40 years of trying.

I would like your thoughts on this matter please.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

Victoria:

It's kind of you to apologize, but I don't need apologies. I'm not offended. This isn't about me. It's about you and some of the unfortunate ideas that you've been peddling. They're far more substantive than personality conflicts, as I've clearly described above. For you to attempt to trivialize it now does you more disservice.

The problem with complicity is that its henchmen are often unaware. This is the part where self-reflection comes in.

-Yabanci

yabanci- well, as that statement seems to have upset you a great deal, as i already expressed regret, here is a formal apology.

however- i dont like getting bogged down in these personality conflicts.

so, im sorry i offended you.

i dont speak turkish, so i have to plod along in my native tongue of english.

i cant figure out what you thought was condescending, so you lost me there.

how you got from anti-americanism to me being complicit in hate rants is something of a stretch for me, so ill leave you in peace.

oops, a correction on my last post (1st paragraph, last sentence) should read:

I have to agree WITH Speridon,...

Victoria,

God, I don't know where to begin with you. It's frustrating, but I'm trying to stick with you because I care about the topic. Please listen, from one human being to another, this situation may require a little self reflection on your part: I have to agree Spiridon, instead of offering a rational argument as a response, you are offering disjointed and angry responses.

Here is an example. In your response you made this accusation to me:

"STRANGER/YABANCI- basically, it seems as if you just discovered turkish politics last week, with the rest of america."

It's just amazing to me where you came up with this. It is so far from a serious or useful argument I'm really surprised that you'd be willing to put your name to it. The goals here for many of us are to articulate constructive ideas, learn new ideas and maybe even persuade someone to develop a better understanding of an important topic. I just get the feeling that your not approaching this debate with any of these simple goals. You obviously have some rhetorical skills, and perhaps you like to exercise them, which is fine, but I believe you might have it in you to take your contribution up a level. Make a coherent arguement if you'd like. I'd love to hear it.

Now, to your unfortunate accusation that I "just discovered Turkish politics last week" I provided a polite answer in Turkish. I did not ask (in Turkish) whether or not you are Turkish, since one's national affiliation doesn't have much to do with whether or not someone is making a good arguement. My reason for writing to you in Turkish was to demonstrate that if I can speak Turkish, it probably means that I just didn't start learning about Turkish politics last week.
You couldn't be more wrong...again. (This is an instance that provides an opportunity for you to do some self-reflection on how you have been approaching these discussions).

I don't even care about that part as much as I do the last part of your statement: "it seems as if you just discovered turkish politics last week, with the rest of america." It's "the rest of america" part. Are you saying that "the rest of America" is ignorant?

Who exactly is the rest of America that you are talking about so condescendingly: is it Staten Islanders? Democrats? Cub scouts? African-Americans? Would you say that African-Americans are ignorant? Because they do make up a substantial part of the rest of America that you are talking about?

If you suggested that "the rest of African-America" is ignorant, it would be pretty upsetting to most of us, including you. My point is, the ridiculous thought processes that leads one to say such an ugly thing about any racial group, is the same thought process you use when you say something stupid to me like: "basically, it seems as if you just discovered turkish politics last week, with the rest of america." It's stereotypng. It's logically bankrupt, intellectually lazy, morally irresponsible, politcally shameful, and just plain wrong. Even if you're using it in defense of the most well- meaning political issue in the world. Since you like us to cite sources, Walter Lippmann's groundbreaking book "Public Opinion" amazingly details how stereotyped political understandings get converted into political movements, most tragically movements towards war.

Mr. Bakshi's journalism demonstrates, with video links, that Anti-Americanism is a component of the rallying towards war. That's alarming to me. An oversimplified and stereotyped idea of America-the-enemy is being used by some to rally others to support a war. People will die. People will get killed and a tragically constructed idea of America will play a part in that killing. Stereotyping and hate talk about America often goes on unchecked because it is somehow politically permissable. We often fail to discern what is legitimate criticism of US policy, and what is hateful ranting. Unfortunately hateful ranting is part of this movement towards war. I can direct you towards dozens of Turkish speaking websites where the evidence is indisputibly anti-American. It is not harmless. It's dangerous not only for Americans, but also for my beloved Turkey. And YOU, Victoria, are complicit when you indulge in such behavior.

This article provides us an opportunity to discuss this problem. So I'm glad we're talking.

-Yabanci

Dear Victoria,

I am so glad that you are so sharing because you may not be aware in your attempt to reinvent your position on the matter so far, but you are quickly becoming the poster child of Turkish contradiction.

I am not sure how my interest in humanitarian issues translates into Cypriot bias. I must have missed something you make reference to.

Since we are on the topic of sharing, would you 'care' to share your thoughts on our discussion on another blog, related to this one, about human rights in Turkey, and in specific your thoughts on women's rights or should I?

I had posted in this discussion yesterday some links that were filtered out of this discussion; that were then approved in another discussion where you commented. I think it is important to acknowledge that your attempt to discredit my comments here as being filtered due to being inappropriate, is an attempt to posture your bias as contrast, and make pretence to some higher cause. It turns out that you have issued a complaint against me to the moderator for being inappropriate, in an attempt to filter out my comments so as to pretend there is no counter position to your own.

I am very curious to read your thoughts on Turkey's human rights defence. The European Union has accused Turkey for lacking the basic principles and institutions to acknowledge human rights and protections, and it is one of the contentious issues that still keeps Turkey out of the EU, even after 40 years of trying.

I would like your thoughts on this matter please.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

SPIDON- i cannot agree that caring implies imnpartiality at all.

for instance, im an american with many ehtnic ingredients-
i would say that it is the CARING about only one people one nation, one thnic group that is precisely the problem.

because when your caring is slanted to any one particluar group- conversely-you create antipathy (in your own psyvhe)to another with opposing or competing interests.

which is the exact opposite of impartiality

it is definitive bias

which precludes openness to reason, and compassion for the "other" point of view-

which also which creates conflict

when there is no vested interest in either side- in other words, one side is not cared about more than the other-
that lends neutrality.

for instance- you care deeply about cyprus

but you have a sense of antipathy towards the turkish people for an old land issue-

it is precisely your attachment to your ideal of a homeland that motivates your forays into exploring only negatives in turkish people or history- while being blind to any good.

id go so far as to say that these tribal attachments are a substantial cause for war today, and in history.

it certainly is in theis instance.

in america, the land is as big as many countries, so this exclusion of others isnt as pronounced.

ive lived all over, and my attachments arent based on earthy sod, but on people.

its not possible to be attached to people without caring.

as for my compassion for the kurdish people, i took a kurdsih man into my home and supported him for several months- and was so impressed with his honesty and gentleness that i introduced him to my best friend, whom he married.

you dont get to be the judge of what my reasoning is based upon.

youre out of your jursidiction if you decide if i care or have compassion.

you dont need to instruct me how to care, as if it were some foreign concept to me tat i havent mastered in my life.

it is precisely the ability to walk in anothers shoes, and view both sides with some dispassion and neutrality that makes a competent arbiter.

while you are determined to forage turkeys past not as a way to garner understanding or foster communicaton and resolution- but to air your old grievances and demonize your own personal "other"

you will find no accordance with me in such an endeavor.

i find it racist and distasteful.

so how many kurds have you taken ito your home, master of compassion?

your assumptions and observations of a personal nature, and poor attmepts to judge a stranger on a blog-
do not strengthen your claim of impartiality, but only give credence to your inability to discuss from a rational perspective.

you are dragging the conversation down with this- however- i also care deeply about what is happening in iran- as ive made the connections previously, and will likely abscond to the new blog.

peace spidon

Dear Victoria,

Your sharing is interesting. I am not sure that it is based on caring since I am certain you will agree that caring implies impartiality.

We have seen anything other than impartiality from you and if caring is the issue, how about showing some compassion for the Kurdish people, of whom some (a minuscule amount) admittedly engage in terrorist tactics, since Turkey has defined their role as rogue terrorists. I would like to point out that not all Kurds are terrorist as not all terrorists are Kurds and invading Iraq to remove the "Kurdish Problem" is akin to invading Iraq to remove the Kurds.

Let us consider historically the significance of the above consideration and see if we can find any parallel occurrence in Turkey's history.

Keep sharing Victoria, it is a precursor to caring.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

YABANCI- it was an opinion and a subjective one(arent they all?)
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/america/2007/10/istanbul_protests_curse_the_pkk.html#comments

heres the link :)

No, im not turkish, im irish french english mongrel mix american. we call it heinz 57

now, that may have been an unfair cahracterization- but it was relevant to your one pointed focus on one (small and belated) issue affecting the turkish incursion into iraq- which i believe was voted inot effect yesterday by the turkish parliament.

however- i DID find this unecceasry negative charactewrization of my motives, and unfair.

"You'd love it if I was guilty of indulging in negative stereotypes about Turks."

really i find no pleasure in any sort of prejudice, and to suggest so is ungentlemanly.

however!
as to your arguments about the american myth- i actually never did disagree with it- i just felt you overstated very dramatically its importance-

you have to admit you take some dramatic license in your views.
i know this because i am guilty of this very thing.

i am very forthcoming about where im from and who i am.
i find it an element of any conversation that helps people identify what my biases may be- even if i am not aware of them myself.

it is a transparency i offer to the public opinion court that is welcome to be challenged as it will only lead to my own examination of my moitives and help me to see things form a wider perspective.

would you offer such a transparency to your own discourse?

i , for instance, live in astoria queens.
there are 2 count em, 2 cypriot organizations 2 blocks away from my house.
and the new york hellenist? organization

im surrounded by greeks, and turks too.
the funny thing is, they seem to feel more of an affinity here for each other than the other many ethnic groups that populate astoria.

so what is your ethnicity yabanci?
i promise not to use it as a lever in any way-
and possibly you see that i engage in a pretty civil manner.

(despite your recent characterizationof an anger i dont possess)

a persons motivations and possibe childhood indoctrinations certainly can flavor emotionally any conversation.
so it has some minor import.

but personal comments on intelligence, or morality etc to me, are off limits and indicate a deterioration of reason.

speaking of which-
SPIDON- i have o idea what you posted or why it was blocked, but clarly it cannot have been good-

now, as you seem to think i hve been attacking yabanci- you are wildly mistaken

it reminds me of what my mom used to say-she had a very strong voice for such a tiny thing- and was the first female union steward in her entire union-

so she could express herself-
when she was accused of yelloing in a debate- she would say-
"thats not yelling"
and then in her most stentorian bellow-
"THIS IS YELLING!!!"

the meaning is, if you think that is an attack-
you have a very mild definition of the word.

peace

I have commented on some of Victoria's attacks on Yabanci, with proof as she has requested but the blog owner has held the post. I am wondering what type of filter is applied to this discussion.

Dear Yabanci, I would like the thank you for your efforts to translate the Kardes Turkuler song. I am a firm believer that music transcends the limits of reason in addressing unity and tolerance, which has for obvious reasons been put aside in this discussion.

I am not sure if the filter applied to addressing the human rights violations in this blog, apply to the cover-up of these violations by the historical revisionists, that Victoria is so strongly in favour of promoting.

Given that Turkey is spending billions of dollars to spread misinformation and redirect the arguments away from the intentions of it's military to carry out further humanitarian crimes, I am wondering what effect a discussion where censorship appears to be applied, actually is having in addressing the issues for the purpose of finding workable solutions, even if it is on the individual level.

Spiridon
Montreal Canada

I wish Bea would return to this conversation. His/Her comments were heartfelt and fair. He/she reminds us that human lives are at stake, and therefore an optimal solution that limits the loss of human suffering should be our greatest concern.

Sevgili Victoria:

Turkce biliyor musunuz? Cunku Turkce biliyorsaniz belki o zaman Turkiye hakkinda daha ayrintili tartisabiliriz.

Can you send 'a link' to support your argument about how I only learned about Turkish politics
last week, "with the rest of America"?

I can see that you and Selin have a lot of anger on this subject, which I can understand. If you want to call a cease-fire on peronal attacks so we can stick to making solid arguments about the issues, I'm all for it. To do so, each of us would have to make an explicit effort to present our points without making any assumptions or silly stereotypes about the person being addressed or that persons national or ethnical affiliation. Good arguments leave those traps out.

-Yabanci

Sorry Victoria My comments were for Yabanci!!!!!!!!!
I mistyped your name there

:)))))))))))

Yabanci

You make me laugh!!!! I know my country and MY COUNTRYS TERRORIST.

The reason I included WW2 is because Victoria is giving a picture of Turks as if we LOVE WAR AND READY TO KILL.

anyways it seems like you have NO IDEA OF TURKEY'S LIFE WITH PKK DO YOUR RESEARCH AND BELIEVE YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING AND HOW OLD IS PKK HATING TURKS.

Victoria my last comment to you is this WHERE WERE YOU WHEN TURKS SAID NO DONT GIVE WEPONS TO PKK HANDS IT WILL BE A THREAT TO MY COUNTRY!

Where and how is this statement making Turks who loves war ???? Yes we do make anti- american comments but THINK why ????

:))))))))))))))))))))) NOW if I was you I would stop jargoning...........

spidon- in no way was i mocking the language skills of any in here-

i was stating that as a buffer to promote some patience between we english as a first language communicators and those whose first languages are other ones.

we should NOT ridicule the language facility of others- it is their ideas that matter- and the spirit in which they communicate.

so im sorry if you felt it was a shot at your skills, which are good as far as i can see-

as to my own communications, if you find anything convoluted, and need clarification, i am happy to oblige.

peace