how the world sees america

On Landing, Pakistan Defies My Expectations

bush_fire
Allama Iqbal International Airport in Lahore, Pakistan
Waiting in the New Delhi airport, I feed Kurkure (spicy Indian Cheetos) to a stray cat. My flight to Lahore is delayed by hours, no way to know how many. Nothing to do. It’s a fairly rundown place; only two duty-free stores and a few food stands -- an unimpressive airport for the capital of an emerging global superpower.

Finally the plane arrives. Eighty 30-something men rush to the boarding gate. A Pakistani airlines representative barks at them, “This is not a bus! You have assigned seats. Step back!” These laborers are rushing to leave India for Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, transiting through Lahore, trying to earn more money. I board the plane, smile at the anxious worker beside me and stroke my beard.

Fifty minutes later I’ve landed. It’s nighttime. The runway glistens with new rain. I disembark, board a coach, and am released onto a clean marble floor. Signs are big and bright. The airport glows. No stray cat. Already Pakistan defies my expectations. It is far more clean and orderly than the Indian airport I just left.

A few other things stand out, things more in line with my expectations. The flight attendant praised God when we landed. That seemed odd. In line I see there's a separate passport control counter for “Families” where only a man need appear on behalf of his wife and kids. And there’s a counter for “Children, Elderly and Unaccompanied Women.” I want to get in that line.

I stay where I belong, and without trouble pass through immigration control, get my bag, board a taxi, and go out into Lahore’s night. The roads are wide and quiet. We pass through a military cantonment. My driver, an old man in a grey kurta named Muhammad Javid strikes up a conversation; I ask about America.

bush_fire
A street in Lahore, Pakistan
He tells me he’s driven many Americans, “they’re very good” but the U.S. politicians are bloodthirsty. He knows about what Obama said, that he'd unilaterally send troops into Pakistan to catch Al Qaeda. A red news ticker bridges the highway, giving the latest headlines. "America has no right." Moreover, U.S. politicians only help Pakistan’s elite and “don’t care at all about the common man.” Bush uses Pakistan like a condom, he says, disposing of it when it's no longer useful.

I ask about Musharraf, expecting the driver to evade the question. When things get turbulent and violent, I expect ordinary people to duck out of political speak in fear. But he pounces. Musharraf consents! Javid exclaims. "I hate him....I can only afford one meal a day now. Musharraf’s ruined the country.” With that, he pulls smoothly up to my gleaming hotel.

So much for fear and disorder I expected from Lahore.

Maybe it’s time to shave too.

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traveler:

To Does it Matter:
You think the reporter is superficial? Your ignorant comment on the "Punjab babes" is far more superficial and disrespectful to me. Noticing a cleaner and more modern airport is a reflection of the country's economic infrastructure- nothing more or less.

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WeAreChange.org:

Young Pakistanis: Bin Laden Is A CIA Creation

Good Morning America gets more than it bargained for in a feature on young people in Pakistan

An ABC news piece that ran yesterday morning attracted attention after four Pakistanis who were being interviewed about the attitudes and life of young people in Pakistan declared Osama Bin Laden to be a creation of western intelligence and stressed that Islamic extremist attitudes towards the west were virtually non existent in their country before 9/11.

ABC have since pulled the video footage from their website, but an industrious prisonplanet forum member grabbed the footage and uploaded it to youtube.

"Who is Osama Bin Laden?" One girl asked Chris Cuomo, "He's just a character created by America" she concluded.

Another of the young people, all in their twenties picked up the conversation stating "I would say that 98% of Pakistanis would follow along the same lines, they believe that Osama is basically a CIA agent who is working under cover to put over a bad image of Islam."

After looking shocked and surprised, Cuomo attempted to rescue the interview by suggesting that many people within Pakistan do indeed support the ideals of bin Laden.

Not according to a a third young Pakistani who was quick to correct the ABC host stating "To be quite honest that is a very marginalised section of Pakistan. The Islamic extremism that you find did not really exist in Pakistan pre 9/11 or pre the Musharraf government.

Of course this is not groundbreaking information, it is basic common knowledge. Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are direct creations of western intelligence as we have thoroughly documented. Al Qaeda itself was a joint CIA/ISI intelligence database of mujahudeen fighters they had recruited in the late 70s and eighties to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

People in Pakistan in particular are very well informed on this reality due to the fact that the ISI is deeply involved with such CIA activities. Bin Laden even had an ISI Running Officer , who also worked closely with the Taliban in Afghanistan who were heavily sponsored by ISI operatives before 9/11.

The head of the ISI at the time, General Mahmoud Ahmad was, according to the FBI and as confirmed by various news reports at the time , a principle financier of the 19 alleged 9/11 hijackers.

But the reaction of the ABC reporter and doubtless millions of watching Americans speaks volumes about the ingrained falsehoods that have shaped our world over the last six years.

www(dot)infowars(dot)com/articles/terror/bin_laden_cia_creation_say_young_pakistanis(dot)htm

WeAreChange.org:

Young Pakistanis: Bin Laden Is A CIA Creation

Good Morning America gets more than it bargained for in a feature on young people in Pakistan

An ABC news piece that ran yesterday morning attracted attention after four Pakistanis who were being interviewed about the attitudes and life of young people in Pakistan declared Osama Bin Laden to be a creation of western intelligence and stressed that Islamic extremist attitudes towards the west were virtually non existent in their country before 9/11.

ABC have since pulled the video footage from their website, but an industrious prisonplanet forum member grabbed the footage and uploaded it to youtube.

"Who is Osama Bin Laden?" One girl asked Chris Cuomo, "He's just a character created by America" she concluded.

Another of the young people, all in their twenties picked up the conversation stating "I would say that 98% of Pakistanis would follow along the same lines, they believe that Osama is basically a CIA agent who is working under cover to put over a bad image of Islam."

After looking shocked and surprised, Cuomo attempted to rescue the interview by suggesting that many people within Pakistan do indeed support the ideals of bin Laden.

Not according to a a third young Pakistani who was quick to correct the ABC host stating "To be quite honest that is a very marginalised section of Pakistan. The Islamic extremism that you find did not really exist in Pakistan pre 9/11 or pre the Musharraf government.

Of course this is not groundbreaking information, it is basic common knowledge. Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are direct creations of western intelligence as we have thoroughly documented. Al Qaeda itself was a joint CIA/ISI intelligence database of mujahudeen fighters they had recruited in the late 70s and eighties to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

People in Pakistan in particular are very well informed on this reality due to the fact that the ISI is deeply involved with such CIA activities. Bin Laden even had an ISI Running Officer , who also worked closely with the Taliban in Afghanistan who were heavily sponsored by ISI operatives before 9/11.

The head of the ISI at the time, General Mahmoud Ahmad was, according to the FBI and as confirmed by various news reports at the time , a principle financier of the 19 alleged 9/11 hijackers.

But the reaction of the ABC reporter and doubtless millions of watching Americans speaks volumes about the ingrained falsehoods that have shaped our world over the last six years.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/terror/bin_laden_cia_creation_say_young_pakistanis.htm

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Koshur:

Aamir Ali,

Listen carefully: Kashmiris haven't fought India for 60 years, Pakistan has. Kashmiris have fully participated in the Indian democracy for 60 years. Kashmiris have repeatedly resisted and fought Pakistani interference and aggression since 1947. The only Kashmiris who seek "liberation" from India and are grateful to Pakistan are Pakistani-trained Kashmiri terrorists. I suggest you stop consorting with this sort before you get hurt.

Aamir Ali:

Kashmiri:

What do you call an occupation of 700,000 troops? You call it Army rule. Kashmir has been under army rule for last 60 years.

Koshur:

I have actually never met a Kashmir from Azad Kashmir, the ones I met were from Indian occupied Kashmir. They said they wanted liberation from India and were grateful towards Pakistan for the help they provided. The 60 year battle that Kashmiris have fought with India is further testimony to it.

Just Passing Thru:

Aamir Ali->> For the record also you have been ruled by the army for 60 years.

Looks like you are getting mixed up between Kashmir and Pak.


Just Passing Thru:

Did anyone notice the Lahore street picture on this post? Got to say - "Defies my Expectations"

Kashmiri:

Aamir Ali:

>> For the record also you have been ruled by the army for 60 years.

It is clear you can't tell you ass from your elbow - so i am not going to argue with you.


Koshur:

Aamir Ali: I have met many Kashmirs, who say the DESPISE India and want to be free from it. You can also look at the history of Kashmiris: 60 years of fighting India.


Let me reiterate: I don't believe you've met ANY Kashmiris, except for perhaps those in POK and they don't speak for the valley. I am a Kashmiri, and whether you like it or not, the simple reality is I know a lot more about Kashmir than you do or ever will. Your audacity in lecturing me on the beliefs of my people and our history is breathtaking! If you had even a cursory knowledge of Kashmiri history, you would know that WE haven't been fighting India for 60 years - your country has. Btw, I haven't said anything about loving India. I've just corrected your falsehood that we HATE India and hold it responsible for our misery. As I’ve repeatedly said, Kashmiris have mixed feelings about India, but we're unequivocal in our revulsion for Pakistan. We regard Pakistan as the engineer of our destruction.

Aamir Ali:

Koshur:

I have met many Kashmirs, who say the DESPISE India and want to be free from it. You can also look at the history of Kashmiris: 60 years of fighting India.

The Kashmiris I met hold the Indian Army responsible for their misery and regard it as a terrible human rights abuser.

You may love India, that is a distinctly minority opinion among the Kashmiris.

Koshur:

Aamir Ali: I have also met Kashmiris, they despise India and want to be free from it. That is why you have had conflict in J&K for 60 years.


I doubt you have met even one Kashmiri, but even if you have, it doesn't matter because YOU are NOT one. How DARE you tell me what I want! For the record, we despise Pakistan, not India. And we hold PAKISTAN responsible for the terrible state Kashmir is in now! Make no mistake, we KNOW that it's Pakistan that is the cause of all the conflict in the valley and we know that it has USED us as disposable pawns in a proxy war against India. Step into Srinagar someday buddy, and we'll show you our "appreciation" for what you've done to us!

Aamir Ali:

To Kashmiri:

I have also met Kashmiris, they despise India and want to be free from it. That is why you have had conflict in J&K for 60 years.

For the record also you have been ruled by the army for 60 years, thats what happens when 700,000 troops are on your soil, unwanted and with special legal protections. The administrators you vote for cannot save you from the Indian Army.

Your other points about NWFP and Baluchistan are nonnsense as they are not disputed territory.

Aamir Ali:

Juhi:

Your last post is an example of your nonsense and foul language. You got paid back in the same coin.

If you were a woman who knew something about Islam and didn't rely on tricks and bad language, then your comments would have been taken seriously.

Nitin:

Hi, every one. If possible, please stop the hatred. It affects you more than it affects him whom you hate.

Do you really think you will change anything by spewing hatred?

It is a waste of time, and it will spoil your mood.

I have read that Pakistan is a wonderfully warm and hospitable place (in the Indian press, among other places) and I would love to visit it some day. We Indians, too, are quite hospitable, and not that filthy. Please ignore the hatred on this board. Come and visit and see for yourselves.

Nitin:

Hi, every one. If possible, please stop the hatred. It affects you more than it affects him whom you hate.

Do you really think you will change anything by spewing hatred?

It is a waste of time, and it will spoil your mood.

I have read that Pakistan is a wonderfully warm and hospitable place (in the Indian press, among other places) and I would love to visit it some day. We Indians, too, are quite hospitable, and not that filthy. Please ignore the hatred on this board. Come and visit and see for yourselves.

Koshur:

Posted on August 21, 2007 13:34

Fahd: And most Kashmiris that I've ever met despise Indians. Kashmir will never be "an integral part of India." Most Kashmiris that I know feel closer to Pakistan than India, but would prefer independence. India is digging itself in a hole by brutally occupying Kashmir by widening the rift between them and the Kashmiri people.


You are wrong. Kashmiris are ambivalent about India, but quite clear in our loathing of Pakistan. As a Kashmiri, I'm sure I know many, many more Kashmiris than you, and none I know has a positive view of Pakistan. Kashmiris hold Paksistani trained/sponsored terrorists responsible for the destruction of our lives and homes. Heck, even Kashmiris who favor independence overwhelmingly prefer India over Pakistan.

Juhi:

Aamir; Show me what crime Hindus are committing in the name of their religion. If they were massacring people on a daily basis all over the world, I would call my religion a murderous cult.

To all Pakis who were used really vile language against me: Why? You think a woman like me can insult your Prophet and Allah? Why you have to defend them? Are you worshipping pigs and horses?

Rock:

Reading these responses is like a mirrior to our own ugly fears and prejudices. Lets just give each other swords, bullets, and bombs, and have a love in...Really, the man just made an observation of a nasty airport! If it's nasty, it's nasty. If Pakistan's is clean, it's clean. If Fox News is biased, it's biased. PBS is really good in comparison to CNN, Fox, and the majors. And Punjabi girls are pretty.

Fahd:

God forbid that anyone says that Pakistani airports are cleaner than Indian ones!!

India as a superpower! What a joke. 65% of the people don't have access to electricity. ELECTRICITY. A small minority has effectively cut off the majority of the population and leaves them to rot. All the while the Muslims of India are at the bottom rung of society-- too poor to even try and go to Pakistan.

The truth is that Indian are well aware of this, and get angry when anything pokes a hole in the "Shining India" facade that has been created.

I understand that India is a developing country, and is working to turn that around. Fine. But don't feign superpower status. You'll end up spending way too much on your military trying to be a superpower and collapsing while your people languish.

Say what you will about Pakistan and Muslims, etc-- but the average citizen has compassion for the poor. Its all consistent with the notion charity.

And most Kashmiris that I've ever met despise Indians. Kashmir will never be "an integral part of India." Most Kashmiris that I know feel closer to Pakistan than India, but would prefer independence. India is digging itself in a hole by brutally occupying Kashmir by widening the rift between them and the Kashmiri people.

After all, it was Nehru's idea for the UN sponsored pleblecite.

Fahd:

God forbid that anyone says that Pakistani airports are cleaner than Indian ones!!

India as a superpower! What a joke. 65% of the people don't have access to electricity. ELECTRICITY. A small minority has effectively cut off the majority of the population and leaves them to rot. All the while the Muslims of India are at the bottom rung of society-- too poor to even try and go to Pakistan.

The truth is that Indian are well aware of this, and get angry when anything pokes a hole in the "Shining India" facade that has been created.

I understand that India is a developing country, and is working to turn that around. Fine. But don't feign superpower status. You'll end up spending way too much on your military trying to be a superpower and collapsing while your people languish.

Say what you will about Pakistan and Muslims, etc-- but the average citizen has compassion for the poor. Its all consistent with the notion charity.

And most Kashmiris that I've ever met despise Indians. Kashmir will never be "an integral part of India." Most Kashmiris that I know feel closer to Pakistan than India, but would prefer independence. India is digging itself in a hole by brutally occupying Kashmir by widening the rift between them and the Kashmiri people.

After all, it was Nehru's idea for the UN sponsored pleblecite.

Kashmiri:

Aamir Ali:

What "Indian non-sense" are you referring to? By all means make a rational counter-argument - if you have one. Crude one liners simply highlight your ignorance about this subject - and it is not doing your credibility any good in this public space.

Jammu and Kashmir is a border state surrounded by two non-friendly countries and an insurgency at home supported by infiltration of jihadists from across the border. Why are you surprised at the large presence of the Army then? Isn't there Pakistani Army in Balochistan? Does that mean Baloch people are under Army occupation too?

Aamir - unlike you, I as a Kashmiri can vote for my representatives. Surely, some of them have turned to be bad choices. But I have never been ruled by a General or any Army. Have you ever cast a vote in your life?

Look, leave us Kashmiris alone. We will sort our issues ourselves - we don't need you. If you are so inclined to support nationalist aspirations of others - then perhaps you could start with Baluchistan and NWF.

Dharma:

Response to Mr. AAmir Ali:

It is a fact that many thousands of Muslims were also killed during partition. I did try to include this fact by my statement "It is a tragic legacy that the killing of the innocent was widespread across much of the subcontinent".

Now after 60 years, it is time for us to close this chapter of hate and violence. We have no choice but to look forward to a future where both India and Pakistan can turn their attention to solving the pressing problems of poverty, health, education, housing and economic growth. If we fail, the world will move forward and leave us behind in the dustbin of history.

Aamir Ali:

Dharma:

You have forgotten the massacres of Muslims by the Hindus and Sikhs in 1947. Convenient for you I guess.


Kashmiri:

Your Indian nonsense cannot hide the fact that Kashmir is under the occupation of the Indian Army.


Aamir Ali:

Juhi:

Check Indian news, lots of crimes committed by Hindus in last 2 days also. That makes all Hindus criminals, according to your goof thinking.

I see the other Indians on this page are speaking similar nonsense. Keep it up.

Dharma:

I apologize and stand corrected as to the minorities forcibly evicted from the newly formed Islamic Republic of Pakistan (Land of the "Pure")in their aggressive religious cleansing. They were, in order of magnitide the Hindus, Sikhs and Christians. The fertile plains of Punjab was forcibly amputated by the British during partition, the Sikh community was one that immediately felt the greatest pain, as Punjab was their homeland.

Dharma:

I am amazed that an innocuous observation by the author Mr. Amar Bakshi that he was surprised to find the airport terminal and general infrastructure of Lahore, Pakistan markedly better than the dilapidation he observed in New Delhi airport can result in such a massive free-for-all mud slinging on this blog.

It is self defeating to castigate an entire faith – any faith, no matter what anybody’s personal views may be.

Now as for India and Pakistan, the two nations will have a few substantial issues that are simply beyond the scope for a mutual agreement. Kashmir is one of them. Pakistan will forever begrudge its failure – of having to accept the reality of a divided Kashmir along the current LOC – the de facto international border. The present crisis in the governance of Pakistan is a reminder that the world will not tolerate a nuclear armed nation to go about merrily promoting Jihad – be it in Indian Kashmir or elsewhere, while claiming to champion the war on terror. Pakistan cannot afford to hunt with the hounds while running with the hares. It is best if Pakistan chooses to invest in its people and its economy and build its infrastructure along the lines of the sparkling Lahore airport. That would greatly motivate the Indians to improve their own dilapidated infrastructure – a win-win outcome.

Responding to Mr. Reddy’s query “What happened to the religious minorities in Pakistan”? Immediately following independence while the world was preoccupied with recovering from the devastation of the Second World War, aggressive religious cleansing in Pakistan decimated its substantial Hindu (and Christian) minorities. The echoes of this forcible demographic engineering, was also felt in the erstwhile princely state of Hyderabad Deccan, with a substantial Hindu majority ruled by a Muslim - the Nizam Osman Ali Khan, who opted to remain independent. Extremist militants among the Nizam’s followers - the “Razakars” unleashed a door-to-door vendetta against Hindu citizens killing thousands and forcing several thousands more to flee from their homes to neighboring states. This prompted a military action by the Indian army that marched into Hyderabad and forced the Nizam to surrender and accede to India.

It is a tragic legacy that the killing of the innocent was widespread across much of the subcontinent. However, unlike India that proclaimed itself a secular democracy, Pakistan was carved out of India by the connivance of the British as a home for the subcontinent’s Muslim minority and as such had few if any constraints in forcibly evicting its Hindu and Christian minorities.

Kashmiri:

Shehzad Ahmed Mir, Aamir:

Which Kashmir are you from? Do you know the first thing about Kashmir? Koshur manz kar kath agar koshur chukh.

Kashmir culture is unique and does not share the jihadi non-sense of Punjabis (i.e.pakistani punjab.

If you are really interested in understanding Kashmir then stop pretending that history started in 1947. Go back 1000 years and try to understand what has shaped our culture. Throughout history, the sword that has shed blood in Kashmir has come from outside Kashmir.

Sad truth is British exit from the subcontinent was ugly and we are still suffering from that. Chips fell where they fell.

Anonymous:

hey but what abt islam? sucks...and spits?

Juhi Sucks:

She certainly swallows the white stuff but spits & stores the ur1ne to use it later for her personal hygiene!

Bizz Bee:

Juhi baby, have a sip of your ex-Indian PM's ur1ne in your fridge and chill! You can also take a quick cold shower with the same! Or get your legs in the air as per Kamasutra instruction to let the big one slide in??

Tarik:

Why are Indians and Pakistanis calling each other names?
You are the same. You have the same faults.
You have the same strengths.
We have more in common than we think.
India has Tendulkar and Dravid,Pakistan had Imran and Wasim. That's the only difference.
India has good batsmen. Pakistan has good bowlers.
Remember Leg Spin of Subash Gupte 9/49 at Lucknow, and Remember Leg Cutters of Fazal Mehmood 9/47,at Oval.
Enjoy Cricket.

You are neighbors, now get some sense. You can learn from Germany and France as an example.

islam sucks:

islam sucks...but does it spit or swallow?

Ranjit Singh:


India is only the 2nd country (the other one is Spain - where the muslims were totally anhilated) in the world which constantly fought with and eventually decimated Muslim power. By the time the Sikhs and the Maratha's were done withthe Muslims - the mughsls were a shell empire - ripe for the pickings. The british walked in and finished the job.
Throughout the 800 odd years that islamic rulers "tried" to rule India - rajupts, Sikhs and Maratha's fought and defeated muslims at regular intervals.

That is the reason why India remained a Hindu country and did not fall to islam (unlike Egypt and Iran for example). Not because of any benign tendencies on the part of Aurangzeb or his ancestors!!

Zorro:

Since when did filthy islamist pigs care about the wishes of others (heck, they don't even care about their own women...misogynists). So saying they are pissed off at India because of Kashmir is misleading at best. All they care about Kashmir is to control it for geo-political and geo-military reasons. It would give them a strategic military location and control over many major Indian rivers originating in Kashmir, not to mention a wealth of other natural resources. So for all that, they have been sponsoring terrorism in Kashmir, disrupting lives of millions of Kashmiri pandits (Hindus...so kafirs, does not matter). But many Kashmiri muslims are affected too, however filthy Pukistan does not give a damn! All they care about is control.

And now they are also bad mouthing US...ungrateful bas*$#%s. Never bite the hand that feeds the mouth!

Juhi:

I saw a nice cartoon which shows Allah F*****g Mohammed, who in turn is F****g the Muslims.

And we all know what Muslims are doing to the rest of the humanity.

Juhi:

To Aamir," Indians continue to make up nonsense theories"
Bad Boy: "If Indians accept a cow as Mama .."

If Muslims accept a pedophile and a terrorist and a war mongerer as their prophet (PBUH), then who is their Allah?

A pig perhaps.

Latest compassion and peace of Islam: 500 minorities blown up in Iraq. Jose Padilla convicted of trying massacre thousand of civlians... (news from last 2 days only)

islam sucks:

Here is what Ayaan Hirsi Ali, an apostate had to say about islam:

On the issues of holy war (jihad), apostasy and the treatment of women, the Koran and Sunna are clear. It is the obligation of every Muslim to spread Islam to unbelievers first through dawa, or proselytizing, then through jihad, if the unbelievers refuse to convert. It is the obligation of the unbelievers to accept Islam. Exempted from this edict of conversion are the people of the book: Christians and Jews. Both peoples have a choice. They may adopt Islam and enjoy the same rights as other Muslims, or they may stick to their book and lead the life of a dhimmi (lower citizen). Legally, the rights of the dhimmi are not equal to those of a Muslim. For instance, a Muslim man may take a Jewish or Christian wife, but Jews and Christians are not allowed to marry Muslim women. If a Christian or a Jew kills a Muslim man, they should be killed immediately. In contrast, the blood of a Muslim should never be shed in recompense for the blood of Christians or Jews.

As for the treatment of women, in the Koran and more elaborately in the Sunna, Islam assigns to girls a position in the family that requires them to be docile, makes them dependent on their male relatives for money and gives dominion over their bodies to these same male kin.
In Islam there is a strict hierarchy of subservience. First and foremost, all humans are required to be the slaves of Allah. In Muslim societies, all children must obey their parents. Beyond this, women and girls must obey and serve without question their male guardians and especially their husbands. This decree of marital obedience is not in any way reciprocal.

A woman in Islam is not competent and must always have a guardian. The responsibility of guardianship may pass from father to brother to uncle before a girl is married off, at which point she must answer to her husband. Marriage is typically arranged, with no choice given to the girl, and there is often an exchange of money in the process. Thus, under the religious rule of Islam, it is still common today that a woman’s rights are essentially sold to a man she may not know, and most likely does not love. Under Islam, a wife must always ask her husband for permission and she must obey indefinitely. This stricture is lifted in the unique event that he asks her to forsake God, wherein she is allowed the right of disobedience. While it is true that in Islam, technically speaking, women have the right to trade and own property, the condition of total obedience to guardians makes this “freedom” hypothetical, at best.

The goal of education given to girls under Islam is the achievement of control over female sexuality. The result of this indoctrination is that Muslim girls believe legitimate and often vocally defend their position of subordination. The lengths a Muslim society will go to in the pursuit of sexual control often cross into the territory of the absurd and, by western standards, criminal. In Islam the minimum age of marriage for a girl is after her first menstruation. Muhammad was engaged to his wife Aisha when she was six years old, and he married her (had intercourse with her) when she turned nine. Millions of Muslim men across the world follow Muhammad in this deed, one of the most prominent examples being the late Ayatollah Khomeini.

Bad Boy:

If Indians accept a COW to be their mama, then is the BULL dada!!

Aamir Ali:

The Indians and some ignorant Americans on this page continue to make up nonsense theories.

Usmaan:

Sorry I added on statement which might be misleading so I'm re-posting the last half of my last blog to clarify things. Here it is --->


I also think you contradicted yourself. In one blog entry, you wrote that Muslims have been raped and or/converted. And yet you also say that the majority of the population does not have Arab blood. So how do you have so many raped women by Arabs and not have Arab blood in the population? I think you need to do your math. Your math and comments do not add up.

Usmaan:

Robbie I think you misunderstood me. My family has been Muslim for hundreds of years. I was just using the last 60 years as an example. By the time partition happened, you can see most that most of Pakistan was Muslim. But they didn't become Muslim overnight, many of them were Muslims for hundreds of years as well. Even the Rajputs, the last to become Muslim, became Muslim wayyyyyyy before the partition of the two countries.
I also think you contradicted yourself. In one blog entry, you wrote that Muslims have been raped and or/converted. And yet you also say that the majority of the population does not have Arab blood, which is true. So how do you have so many raped women by Arabs and not have Arab blood in the population? I think you need to do your math. Your math and comments do not add up.

To Juhi: I condemn all sorts of heinous acts that you have mentioned. They are horrible and not exemplary of Muslims, just like the Babari masjid incident is not an example of all Hindus.

Juhi:

Usmaan: A great spin master.
I bet you will say 9/11 was a message of peace from Muslims to America.
Beslan school children massacre was a peaceful initiation of Islam into Russia.
And yesterday's blowing up of 400 Kurdish civilians was a peaceful response to their stoning of death of a woman who wanted to convert to Islam..

Burbie:

Nice work robbie...

And to extrapolate a bit on what you have written: islamic cult does believe in (actually survives on) forced conversions. So, once the islamic rulers invaded South Asia, they forced their religion on the native Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists. Islamic atrocities were responsible for Buddhism fading away in India, but thankfully it found a firm footing in Southeast Asia and teachings of the Buddha still live on (and are very much on the rise). As to why not everyone is an islamist, Sikh and Hindu rulers in various portions of the country resisted islamic aggression. Moreover, not everyone was forced to convert (as some poster above has mentioned) since non-muslims paid the jiziah on which islamic rulers thrived. So it was in the interests of these rulers to have a part of the population non-muslims, from whom they could get these taxes! Finance does matter too...

Robbie:

Usmaan:

You talk about things that happened 60 years ago. I am talking about conversions a long, long time ago. And there is population genetics data available that suggests that people living in the Indian subcontinent have been living in the same region for almost 3000 years.

Now, there was no Islam that long ago. Islam came only in the last 1400 years and islamic rulers came to the subcontinent only about 1000 years ago (around 900-1000 AD). So you do the maths. If all the people in South Asia were natives of that region and some of them are muslims today (actually quite a few of them), how did they become muslims? They are not migrants (since population genetics says they are not; they do not have the same genetic make up as people living in the middle east). So they are converts, converted ~300-900 years ago, not in the last 60 years!!

Usmaan:

I just want to clarify a couple of things. To all those that say that present-day Muslims were former Hindus that were raped, it is not true. My city (a city in Pakistan that I won't name) was established and run by a Sikh for the longest time. Muslims were the minority. Right before the partition of India and Pakistan, Muslims had become the vast majority. Hindus lived in my town and as well as Sikhs but Muslims were the overwhelming majority. Nobody forced them to convert, even though the Sikh rulers were use to kill Muslims commonly. (I have no hate towards Sikh by the way, just putting some facts out there. I have Sikh friends and we get along great.) During the partition, a great majority of the Hindus already existed in India with a small minority. But the opposite was not true, many many many Muslims existed in India. And though some people won't agree with this, the border of India was drawn out incorrectly. The border of Pakistan should have been much further East, making Pakistan a bigger country all along its Eastern border. This was established as a fact just last night on a PBS documentary in which an ex-British official of India confirmed that fact on the eve of Pakistani/Indian Independence. So if 15-20% Hindus existed in India before the partition, it is not surprising that the number is very small. I will not say that bad treatment hasn't been done to Hindus or any other minority in Pakistan. Minorities all over the world usually experience this, (just ask African Americans living in America), but the vast majority of these people migrated across the border.
As far as the popularity of the Muslim religion, my city converted despite the presence of a tyrannical Sikh ruler and a great Hindu population. A couple of Muslim saints came to town and none of them have a violent history. From these handful of saints, the whole city became Muslim. The beautiful city of Lahore that Amar Bakshi is in, also had many saints come and spread the religion there. In regards to minorities living and surviving, Muslims are 10% of a population where Hindus rule. Yet when Muslims ruled India, the Hindus were still the majority, and today there are a billion Hindus compared to roughly 200-300 million Muslims. If Muslims were nothing but tyrannical people, Hinduism would not have survived as the majority religion of India. Just thought I'd put my two cents into clarifying things.

Robbie:

The only relationship Pakis (and most muslims in the Indian subcontinent) have with Middle Eastern muslims is that their (Pakis') ancestors were raped and/or force converted to islam from either Hinduism or Buddhism by muslim invaders sometime between ~950 AD to ~1700 AD! And now these "forced" converts come back and try to teach the world about how great, peaceful and tolerant a religion islam is! Yeah right...

Jai Khosla:

Malcolm Shabazz

U rright. Indians and Pakistanis are the same genetic stock but every Muslim in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh will deny that.

They have all invented mid-eastern ancestries. Tracing their lineage to the Arabs, with whom they have nothing in common, gives the average Pakistan great pride and satisfaction.

Jai Khosla:

Regarding Morarji and urine, prophet Muhammad was a camel urine drinker.

Malcom Shabbazzz:


Pakistanis and Indians are the same race of people.

Imagine if Imran, Kapil, Wasim Akram, Gavaskar, Zaheer Abbas, Vishwanat, Hanif Mohammed, Venkat, Bedi, Majid Khan, Tendulkar, Mohammed Yousef, Rahul Dravid, Majid Khan, etc, etc,... just imaging what they would have done to the world of cricket. The white man divide you and then rule you to this day.

India and Pakistan governments and/or politicians ate in bed with whitey and you all know it. Go ahead and nuke each other. Who cares, after all you are all brown people.. just like the people in New Orleans, Africa, Bangladesh, etc.

My fellow Americans would not understand a sh-- of what I write here, because they are so dumb about the rest of the world. Even our senators and congressmen and women who support bombing Iraq, could not point out Iraq on a map. I doubt if Obama knows the difference between his ass and his elbow muchless Pakistan from Afghanistan.

bye you all

Juhi:

If anyone wonders why there are no minorities in Muslim nations, read the front page of WaPo today (online). The Sunnis have blown up 250 people in Iraq whom they consider to be infidels (an ethnic Kurdish sect). This is the compassion and peace of Islam.
And watch United 93 where the Muslim hijacker is praising his Allah just before he is about to massacre thousands of civilians.
I don't think there is anything in the world more sickening.

Tautology:

BTW Juhi: I love the tautology in your post: crazy lunatic muslims... hehehe

Ignore them:

Juhi: Don't say crazy lunatic muslim. Don't hate them for the way they are. They need pity. They are just following their holy book. It directs them, rather orders them to be fundamentalist, bigoted, misogynistic, power hungry (look at the mughals, almost every mughal emperor ascended to the throne by killing or imprisoning his own father: real humane), intolerant cowards! So are you really surprised if Bad Boy and other islamist pigs (though these cowards will certainly deny being islamists) are intolerant? These are the types that would strap bombs on themselves and blow innocent civilians.

Juhi:

To Bad boy,
What you are describing are symbols of Hinduism and I can see your intolerance and insult towards religion.
But again we are not saying ours is the best religion like Christians and Muslims. Muslims are inspired by their one Allah concept in blowing up everything in sight.
About the piss story: you may be referring to Morarji Desai, India's ex-PM who was known to drink his own urine..
Again better to have him than a crazy lunatic Muslim intent on murdering civilians.

Nivedita:

Jacob :

tsk, tsk...what foul language!

If you are trying to anger me, you are not really succeeding.

I pity you even more.

The Real Xistns:

It is a shame I have to keep prefixing "The Real" for my name! However, just one point, moderate muslims need to think about why islam is incompatible with pluralism and how its entire survival will depend in whether muslims learn to accept other religions and co-exist peacefully. Live and let live is that way. Any other way is headed to death and destruction.

The real "Xistns":

Guys, stop using my name for ranting. Come up with your own name!

And while I agree that there is a lot wrong with islam and don’t personally think it is compatible as such with modern day secularism, I do not like to use foul language to insult religion. I have already made my point and again reiterate that dialogue and reformation in islam is the need of the day, for the sake of world peace.

The real “Xistns”

Xistns:

Bad Boy...now now! Don't say you are not a filthy islmist pig or they might have your head for apostasy! Though it is mighty gutsy of you to forsake your religion when the going gets tough! Guess that is part of your "holy" book too! In addition to marrying 6 year olds and marrying wives of sons!

Bad Boy:

Yo ANONYMOUS or XISTNS (sorry if ain't you though!)

I ain't an islamist pig dude nor even a muslim, but thanks for sharing your sexual preference which tells me you are deeply into child molestation a lot eh??? They are looking for your kind in Denmark!!

By the way, what the normal age of your Hindus getting hooked in India?????? I heard they start real young like 3 or 4 years for girls and sometimes when you poor farmers do not have money to pay back the loan they give away a shot at their pride and joy Indian daughters to the loan sharks???

My suggestion to the likes of you would be not to borrow any money dude cause you never know when you will not be able to pay the shark back! and then......well you aint mature enough to have a daughter so maybe your mother will do just fine!!

To "Jacob":

Your country, Jacob???? You are a filthy Puki, I mean Paki! Don't try to pretend that you are an American. Don't insult the US, you islamist pig!

Nice of you to hide behind a Jewish name, you anti-semite!

JACOB:

Hey Nivedita (is that your real name?? or something you use to hide behind??) you illegal immigrant! are you at a loss for words that you have chosen to label real Americans as bigots? You Indian inherited bassturds are doing the job quite well on this blog of displaying their sheer bigoted nature.

And what is ''your civilization'' cr@p?? You have just wholeheartedly agreed to my observation about the racist nature of ''your civilization''. You can take a brownie (or a blackie) out of India but you cannot take the India out of the blackie (or brownie)?

What a load of BS? Go sell it to your own civilization who'd probably burn it for fuel for the poor destitute bassturds! And while you are at it do not bother to respond but do get the hell out of my country ASAP!!

Xistns:

Who here is posting using my name?

Xistns:

Easy Bad Boy, you islamist pig! Have you not found any 6 or 9 year old to have sex with? Or does your dad plan to marry your wife? Guess that is what your "book of peace" says!!

Anonymous:

Easy Bad Boy, you islamist pig! Have you not found any 6 or 9 year old to have sex with? Or does your dad plan to marry your wife? Guess that is what your "book of peace" says!!

PUNJABI JATT:

Ethay Phudi Day ek tau ek vadd k Indian chut day pithu bhokun rai nay!

Ay gandu sirf ethay hi bhonk sakday nay! Ena di hor koi sunan vala nai!

To all the INDIANS.....Please have the above translated from your fellow Sikhs or Indian Punjabis.

Bad Boy:

Yo! JUHI

What about the BLACK MAMA (KALI DEVI) in your religion she is a goddess of death and destruction and her followers regularly give human sacrifices (BALLI) for her. Other than being one ugly B1TCH she is holding human heads (severed) in her multiple arms with blood on her tongue. And you do not deny the cow P1SS story either. Do ya dot head???

Jo:

A news article today:
ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - A U.S. law linking aid to Pakistan to progress in the fight against militancy and some comments from U.S. politicians were detrimental to cooperation between the countries, Pakistan said on Wednesday.

Do you see the gall these people have...warning us about relations? Like we give a tiny rat's $@#
This is not a symbiotic relationship, it is parasitism at its best. Pakistan is benefitting from our money and resources, they are using our military to secure their borders, they are using US taxpayers' money to build their nation and even to build madrassas preaching anti-US teachings (when they should be using it to fight terror actually). And now they threaten us that relations will be damaged? Really?

Good riddance to bad rubbish!

Anonymous:

All islamist pigs are not terrorists but all terrorists are islamist pigs!!

Nivedita:

Jacob: Your comments do not dignify a response. You are one racist, bigoted individual who brings shame to the name of America. I pity you.

Aamir: You poor delusional soul. I knew you did not have answers to my questions. None of the Pakistanis do, do they?

The others insulting Hinduism:
The best way again was to insult Hinduism since you are caught in a corner. Our civilization has withstood the onslaught of many like you before this and always will. So, if it gives you a cheap thrill to make a fool of yourself on a forum like this, do it by all means. But use your real names, you are being very juvenile hiding behind false ones!

Xistns:

The growth of Islam in any country is a threat to its peace and security. This could be UK, US, Canada, India, Indonesia, or Philippines. Speaking against Islam and its inhumane teachings excites Muslims and make them hysterical. Most of the Muslims have not read quran and have no idea of the amount of hate and violence that is preached in that book. If these people become familiar with the real content of quran, after passing through the usual stage of denial, they will eventually leave Islam. To avoid social strives, it would be better for the common good to start debates like these soon and explore and reform Islam. Muslims are coming in big numbers and they are procreating faster than any other group. If we hide our heads under the sands, this problem is only going to aggravate. Soon the day will come when Muslims will be a great force, but it will be a force that will want to destroy our freedom and our national unity. We just cannot afford the luxury to sit back and let Islamic fundamentalism grow in our own backyard. Islam and Islamic fundamentalism are the same thing. Islam is a fundamentalist cult. The bombings, assassinations, and terrorism are not the work of few extremist radical Muslims but they are what Islam teaches and preaches.

Robbie:

Though most of the immigrants from the Islamic countries, after arriving to the Western countries, learn new ways of life and become pillars of the community contributing to the society intellectually, economically and culturally, a number of them who want to maintain their religious identity become real problems.

The case of the Pakistani Muslims in UK is striking. What is happening in England could happen in all those countries where the number of Muslim immigrants is on the rise.

Thanks to the intolerant teachings of Quran, like calling the non-Muslims najis (impure) and inferior, the Muslims are less likely to integrate with the people of other religions and befriend them.

Because of their namaz rituals they are less likely to find employment. The time they expend saying their prayers (5 times a day) is a loss to the employers.

Therefore the index of unemployment amongst the Muslims is higher and as the consequence they are poorer than the rest of population.

Generally speaking the majority of the educated Muslims are no more believers. Those who still believe are of lower education, which also translates in lower social status.

Because they are less educated they tend to procreate faster than the average population.

All that is contributing to the emergence of an alienated minority that is dispossessed, hungry and resentful. This minority is also motivated by a doctrine that not only condones but also encourages and glorifies violence as an act of devotion in the form of Jihad or holy war. This is a recipe for disaster.

Islam is a religion that does not allow the integration of its members with others (Q.9:23). Letting Islam to grow unchecked and supporting its advancement by funds that should be allocated to promote multiculturalism and foster our national unity is a colossal and irreversible error that cannot be over-emphasized.

Foxy:

What "religious figure" married a 6 year old? What "religious figure" taught intolerance and bigotry? What religion (or should I say cult) is the most fanatic, bigoted, fundamnetalist, terrorist religion? islam...

When islamic morality is judged by universal standards, this cult constitutes a major threat to the survival of human race. Crzy islamists as usual, will produce far-fetched and irrational evidence to prove that islam advocates love and brotherhood of mankind. This type of sorcery has worked wonders for islamist fundamentalists in the past, but with the dissemination of knowledge, it is difficult to cloud the truth with the magic of misinterprelation, marvel of mesmerisation and mysticism of meaninglessness.

Islam has become a set of fundamentals which preach social segregation, hatred of non-Muslims and elimination of dissenters through dominance, death and destruction. Examine the following for yourself:

1. "O ye who believe! The non-Muslims are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship." (Repentance: 28)

2. "O ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers .... and let them find harshness in you." (Repentance: 123)

3. "Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute." (Repentance: 29)

4. "O believers, do not treat your fathers and brothers as your friends, if they prefer unbelief to belief, whosoever of you takes them for friends, they are evil-doers." (Repentance: 20)

5. "God has cursed the unbelievers, and prepared for them a blazing hell." ( The Confederates 60 )

6. "Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends.... whoso does that belongs not to God." (The House of Imram: 60)

7. "O believers, do not make friends with the Jews and Christians; ..whoso of you makes them his friend is one of them." (The Table: 55)

8. "Moslems are hard against the unbelievers, merciful to one another." (Victory: 25)

A Muslim naturally believes in all such Koranic verses, which determine his social outlook and he becomes a narrow- minded sectarian. This psychological approach is the fountain of fundamentalism.

Foxy:

Hey...a quick question! What "religious figure" married a 6 year old? What "religious figure" taught intolerance and bigotry? I can't seem to remember who it was. Maybe one of you islamists care tyo answer?

Juhi:

Michael, Bad Boy,
I rather belong to a religion that worships objects (sexual or otherwise) than the ones that say their is the only way to live. Michael (Xtian) converts people by pretending to help them (M. Teresa) and Bad Boy (Islam) blows up non-Muslims and if non-Muslims are not there than other Muslims. That explains why there are no minorities in 52 Islamic nations.

Koshur:

Aamir Ali:
Koshur: Your "Kashmiris" have fought India for 60 years, not Pakistan. This is because they support Pakistan and despise India.


You know parroting the same lie repeatedly doesn't turn it into the truth. You really need to diversify your talking points, yaar. Kashmiris haven't been fighting India for 60 years, you Pakistanis have. And while Kashmiris may not love India, we reserve our loathing for Pakistanis and the terrorists you have sent to destroy our homeland.

BAD BOY:

It was a former Indian Prime Minister who used to wash himself with cow urine!! Hindus & Indians use cow urine to wash & bless their homes & utensils. No wonder they smell like spice! I am staying out of the local Indian owned TANDOORI TAJ MAHAL eatery!

Bad Boy:

Michael don't take your johnston out to pee in India, you'll have about a 1000 locals lined up to pray on it....he he

Kashmiri Hindu:

I am one of those special brand of people that is of Kashmiri origin, Hindu and whose grandfather escaped from Pakistan in 1947 with his shirt on his back, his wife, his parents, his children and came to Mumbai.

Based on 1951 Census of displaced persons, 72,26,000 Muslims went to Pakistan from India while 72,49,000 Hindus and Sikhs moved to India from Pakistan immediately after Partition. It was the biggest migration ever of the world to which these people bear a raw witness. After the Muslims went to Pakistan, another 30 million were left in India and Muslims were 9-10% of te population in India.

The population of Pakistan right after Partition was 27 million. Thus Hindus and Sikhs were 25% of the population. In Punjab and Sindh they were over 40%.

Today Pakistan has less than 2% Hindus and almost all Sikhs have been ethnically cleansed by the Muslims.

In India, Muslims are 13%, perhaps more.

That ought to tell you something. Paksitan was to be homeland for Muslims but the Muslims remaining in India by Pakistani laws may not go there even though it is they who fought hardest to break India up.

Had Hindus and Sikhs not been cleansed from Pakistan today there would be a 40 million of them in Pakistan. Would Pakistan still be able to call itself a Muslim country?

Jammu and Kshmir acceded to India in accoradnce with rules that were in place: that the ruler of contiguous staes could decide who he wished to join. J & K was Muslim majority but non-Muslims were a large minority as in Punjab, about 40%.

The UN Resolution accepted the accession to India but asked that it be ratified by a referendum. But the UN asked that the invading Pakistani forces vacate Kashmir first. Pakistan has yet to do so.

Since then, the J & K legislature has ratified the accession, Hindus have been ethnically cleansed from the Valley of Kashmir, Pakistan has sent in non-Kashmiris into the areas occupied by it. A referendum does not make sense because the people who were living in 1947 are a minority in Kashmir.

It is time Muslims accepted that J & K is an integral part of India. Those Muslims who do not wish to be part of India should go to Pakistan just as Muslims from the rest of India did.

It is time that the areas occupied by Pakistan be vacated by pakistan and returned to India.

Muslims got more land per capita than non-Muslims in the four provinces of Pakistan. They should be happy with what they got, forget about Kashmir, reduce its army to about 100,000 and use the money saved to develop their country. the Pakistani people have suffered enuf. They should be allowed to get on with their lives.

Michael:

Brainiac: Why do Hindus pray to a god that looks like the human johnston? Hindus like sex too, kamasutra is their best taught lesson to the world.


You've made me curious too!! Praying to a human johnston? thats funny!!!

That's why India is so overly populated as each man there must try all the position suggested in kamasutra....the result.....1 billion plus population.....whoa! what a concept!

Brainiac:

Why do Hindus pray to a god that looks like the human johnston? Hindus like sex too, kamasutra is their best taught lesson to the world.

Bad Boy:

Why do Hindus pray to a god that looks like the human jhonston? Hindus like sex too, kamasutra is their best taught lesson to the world.

JACOB:

Jacob: Don't speak for all Americans. I highly doubt you yourself are one, you seem to be a Pakistani representing yourself as an American.

I am an American, my father was an American, his father was American and our generations go back about 100 years living here in the USA.

How long have you been here NIVEDITA? 10 or 15, 20 max years? and that too born out of Indian parentage who were issued green cards when they chose to migrate from your poor & destitute country of origin? Your race still refers itself to be INDIANS more than you are Americans. So it is actually you being an INDIAN representing as a wannabe AMERICAN. Better zipp it now!

Mohamed MALLECK, Swift Current, Canada:

CONCERNED, REDDY, JUHI,

Isee that you have not called-in the psy yet.

I am going to do that for you, my kaafir fiends; for your own good.

Aamir Ali:

Koshur: Your "Kashmiris" have fought India for 60 years, not Pakistan. This is because they support Pakistan and despise India.

Juhi: You are using your bucketing trick again. I dont think you have read anything about Islam or Mughals, and your use of trickery doesnt prove any of your claims.

Nivideta: The problem of Kashmir begins when your Nehru falsely claimed that the Kashmir maharaja had signed a document of accession. After that was the Indian invasion. Today the problem is the Indian occupation

To other Indians: Your bigotry and foul language is well on display in this page, and using tricks like bucketing or grabbing portions of verses or paragraphs doesnt prove any of your claims.

Pakistan Zindabad and Islam Zindabad!

Robbie:

Well said Concerned! Do you also know that fanatic Zakir gave a speech in which he has urged that all muslims SHOULD BE terrorists? Despicable...

Nivedita:

Jacob: Don't speak for all Americans. I highly doubt you yourself are one, you seem to be a Pakistani representing yourself as an American.

You obviously do not have answers to the questions I asked. Do you?

JACOB:

This blog site is full of religious hate-mongers, mainly with Indian background. Great Job you resident American Indians are doing. Better stop representing us Americans now.

Concerned:

Want to hear about some wonderful things this "religion of peace" teaches?

Zakir Naik is a radical fundamentalist mohammedan (a doctor by profession, quite like the doctors from UK involved in the terror plot), whose views about this crazy cult would tell you in a nutshell what islam, on the (w)hole represents! In every debate he engages in, he tries (quite stupidly I might add) to say how islam is better than any other religion. Moreover, he (like mohammedans the world over) suffers from a terrible problem: he has serious issues. Zakir Naik feels mohammedans are needlessly (yeah, right!) blamed for violence everywhere. He argues about how quran is a peaceful book, how islam advocates tolerance.

This idiot Naik says:
“The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; many say ‘you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife.’ If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs.”

In an interview, Naik was asked:
“If Muslims should be allowed to propagate their religion in other countries, why should non-Muslims not be allowed to propagate their religion in Islamic countries? This is, after all, fair.”
His reply:
If a non-Muslim is the principal of a school and if he wants to select a math teacher will he select a teacher who says 2 + 2 = 3 or the one who says 2 + 2 = 4 or the one who says 2 + 2 = 6? He would select the candidate who said 2 + 2 = 4, because the others don't have a correct knowledge of Mathematics. Similarly the other religions are wrong, and only Muslims have a right knowledge regarding religion. And when their religion and worship is wrong how can Islamic nations allow them to preach their (wrong) religion & build their places of worship?"
The interviewer who asked the question follows it up with: But is it not so that the Non Muslims think their religion is true and Muslims think our religion is true?"
Then comes another gem from the incorrigible Naik:
One thing must be understood that Non Muslims will never let their children learn 2 + 2 = 3, because they are sure its wrong similarly we are only sure Islam is true and they not sure about their religion if they were sure they would they allow wrong things to be preached?"

I would not respect any person who has no respect for women. And Zakir Naik probably tops the list. He, like most islamists, is a true misogynist and chauvinist. So, after reading his really insulting and degrading comments on women, I was shocked about how low these islamists would stoop to subjugate their women. This is what Zakir Naik has to say about polygamy in islam:
“If every woman got married to only one man, there would be over thirty million females in U.S.A, four million females in Great Britain, 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia who would not find a husband. Thus the only two options before a woman who cannot find a husband is to marry a married man or to become public property.”

THAT IS ISLAM IN A NUTSHELL... NOW WHAT DO YOU EXPECT OF ANY ISLAMIC THEOCRACY, REALLY?

Nivedita:

Aamir, if you and the other Pakistanis support Kashmiri independence so much then I have 2 questions for you all:

1] Kashmir was independent before Pakistani tribesmen invaded it resulting in the unfortunate situation today. Any answers?

2] In 1963 Pakistan CEDED 5,180 square km of northern Kashmir to CHINA illegally. Any thoughts why Pakistan would do that if it believed kashmir ought to be a sovereign state?

Thank you!

Juhi:

Aamir wrote, "...Prophet was born in a warrior society,... fought to defend himself...Islam spread by choice..." Nice but cruel jokes.

I am sure you will call 9/11, Russian school children massacre... also defensive acts. And bin Laden (PBUH) a defensive warrior.

Islam started in 7th century AD. It spread all over the world not by choice. Islamic armies invaded infidel lands and killed civilians and imposed tax on people who did not convert. I have read Indian/Mughal history. None of the history books say that Mughals/Muslims were invited by Hindus.

Koshur:

Aamir sweetie,

How about you not lecture me about what my people want. Kashmiris have nothing but contempt for Pakistanis and rue the day your terrorists stepped foot in our heavenly valley. But fear not, Pakistani interlopers can't keep us down too long and we've already begun to clean house.

cheers!

Anonymous:

Muslims are allowed to kill and convert minorities in their majority regions through threats and terrorism, but when they are the minority they cry for rights. Hindus were 20% of Pakistan's population in 1947, but are less than 2% now. The percentage of Muslims in India has increased over time. The Hindu population is witnessing a similar decline in Bangladesh. Yes you can cry for Gujarat, but the systematic killing of minorities in Pakistan is known and has yet to be answered for.

Sreedhar:


Bush uses Pakistan like a condom, he says, disposing of it when it's no longer useful.


How come you have not followed up his answer with a question that probes deeper? After all, that is the stated purpose of your visit!

Aamir Ali:

Koshur buddy, the Kashmiris dream of independence. Your Indian Army and its massacres cannot stop that.

As a Pakistani, I support the Kashmiris against the Indian occupation force. You should too.

Koshur:


Aamir Ali,

Apzor, magaz chi dallimet? Kyaz chuk apuz wanan?
You clearly have a severe case of Kashmiriitis, but you really need to STOP pretending to be a Kashmiri. Maybe next life, buddy.

Islamic terrorism has destroyed the lives of Kashmiris, but never fear, we're resilient and Kashmiriyat will triumph over religious fanaticsm sooner or later.

Aamir Ali:

Nivideta:

It is you and other Indians who came on this page bashing Pakistan and then cannot handle some retaliatory India-bashing.

Regarding Kashmir, get rid of the Indian occupation army, problem is solved. You and Koshur can both confirm that with the Kashmiris.

Nivedita:

Aamir: Like Koshur says, first get your history right. PAKISTAN invaded Kashmir soon after independence. That is unfortunately a fact however much you may try and deny it.

And trust me, Indians are not waiting for Pakistan to fall to pieces, since India will bear the brunt of the fall out. And we are doing just fine right now, thank you!

Its high time you realised the problem is with you rather than point fingers at America, India and find a scapegoat for all your ills. You are certainly showing signs of being paranoid and schizophrenic to boot.

Aamir Ali:

Sol:

As I told you, the Quran is interpreted, not read literally. When you read the Quran literally with bias, as you have, it is useless. Visit a mosque and ask them questions about Islam, you will meet some Muslims and actually learn something.

Another important point for liberals like you is that they need to respect the contributions immigrants make to America.


Sol:

Aamir

I don't pretend to be anything I am not, never do. I am an American (though I am 1/8th Indian, native Indian!!!) and I am proud of my country (proof: I live where I was born and raised, unlike you who had to run away from the filth we know as Pukistan). The only people pretending here are islamists like you. Your ilk come to the west pretending to like what we are and then blow up people, be it here in the US or in UK. And I know all about koran, I have actually read an English translation and that only helped me make up my mind about the vile religion you guys called islam. It is misogynistic, intolerant and bigoted. Many people actually argue about islam being a cult rather than a religion. And believe me, not all people who criticize islam for what it is are right-wing, fox news-watching individuals. Many liberals (like me) have the same opinion too.

Aamir Ali:

Sol:

I thought you were Indian but perhaps you are an American, so I will respond to your post:

1) Your country is killing for oil and prestige. Proof is your aggression of...Iraq.

2) Immigrants make huge contributions to American society, including Muslim immigrants. Some come to do jobs Americans wont do, others fill shortages in the American industry. Their contributions must be respected.

3) Our religion doesnt treat women like slaves and doesnt believe in conversion by force. Though groups like Taliban behave in opposite manner, that is their flaw, not Islam's or all Muslims.

4) You neither built America singlehandedly neither are you Landlord of the USA, so speak like an ordinary person, Sol.

Abbas:

Are Indians on this page furious just because the author said Pakistani airports are better than Indian airports? tsk tsk.

Aamir Ali:

oh and Koshur:

The Indian Army has ruined the life of Kashmiris, since it invaded in 1948. Get rid of it and problem is solved. Thats what the Kashmiris say.


Aamir Ali:

Robbie, Koshur, Juhi, Sol and other INDIANS:

1) Stop pretending to be Americans.

2) These verses you quoted are part of paragraphs, themselves part of a passage. Read the whole thing, not a sentenced here and a few words there.

3) Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was born into the warrior society of Arabia, he fought battles to defend himself. The religion of Islam was spread by choice.

4) Dont lecture Muslims on Islam as your knowledge is close to zero. Trickery, overgeneralization and hatred will only convince fellow Indians like you.

Sol:

To Shehzad:

You live here for 16 years and suddenly you are an expert on American roots? First see how your own religion is rotting at its core, try to accept what is wrong and change it. Then try to tell us how our roots are, should be and what we should do about it. No one in my religion wants to kill non-believers, we don't belive in 72 virgins waiting for us in heaven, no one belonging to my religion tries to force convert others and we treat our women as equals (not as slaves meant to do our bidding). I think one of the posters above (probably Robbie or Juhi) has quoted verses from your koran, which proves what I say. Reform your own religion before you can bring yourself to even argue about social issues.

Juhi:

Shehzad,
Nothing I have written or quoted above is my opinion. They are all facts: Mohamed (pbuh) did fight more than 9 battles in his lifetime (again not in defense), he had married 9 women, including a 6 year old girl, there are 52 nations calling themselves Islamic thus practising in-your-discrimination against other religions....

If any of the above is untrue or fiction, let us know. Thanks

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

SOL, JUHI - I have lived in the USA for 16 years. I know you and your proverbial American roots better than you. Unfortunately, self-delusional, religiously racist kooks like you not only give yourself and your race a bad name but actually make the likes of Nazis and RSS very happy!

Juhi your comment about a Prophet of God is evident of your inherent lack of respect and deep rooted religious racism. Thanks again for confirming our observations about your Indian race.

Your definition of a ''Civil Forum'' is evident from the likes of your Indian born countrymen in India and USA.

Regulus:

bloody islamic terrorist douchebags!!

Sol:

Shehzad Ahmed Mir says:
...I am outta here to more decent pastures!

Well, remember to stay out of islamic places and you will be in decent pastures! Maybe, you could just stay here in the US, we are nice people and do welcome scum like you too!

Juhi:

Pakistanis have run away by calling people monkeys rather than pariticipate in a civil way on this forum. Robbie has very good points.
Also I just read that Islam's founder Mohammmed (PBUH) fought at least 9 major battles in his life time (I guess he found time besides womanizing) not to defend himself but to spread his new found "faith" in a very violent and brutal way.

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

ROBBIE - A.R.T.I.C.U.L.A.T.E, wow! thats a tuffy for even for a monkey like you. From the quality of your post above, an articulated response to you will be like trying teaching Chinese to a nose picking chimp! But hey, at least you an ANONYMOUS agree on your unified genetic heredity!

Too many monkeys on this blog tree. I am outta here to more decent pastures!

Anonymous:

monkeys on trees are better than islamists pigs!!

Koshur:

Aamir Ali: Kashmiris hate India and have suffered tremendously under the Indian Army. Get rid of the Indian Army from Kashmir, problem solved.


Apologies for the blunt tone, but what part of STOP speaking for Kashmiris don't you get? You are not a Kashmiri and don't live here, so stop telling us what we think and feel.

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

SOL - Thanks for enthusiastically joining Robbie the monkey on the same tree. Man these bigoted mentally deficient monkeys are everywhere in the USA!! Call in CDC before these critters get out of hand!

Robbie:

Hehehe...lack of articulate response leads one to resort to baser comments!

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

ROBBIE - You should not wasted that much space to show the world that you are a religious racist and an incompetant swine!! Your degenerated views on religion let alone Islam are predictive of a twisted and redneck minded monkey. Go climb a tree where you actually belong Primate!What a dumb ass!!

Sol:

In fact, I can be very sure any islamic state is the same way... I don't know what Amar Bakshi is seeing in Pakistan. It is probably just a facade, to cover up all the terrorism brewing in the midst of the country, teaching them to hate us for all the good things we as a country represent: freedom, liberty, equality for women, finacial progress. If we were not that good, what are so many Pakis doing migrating to our country. take your ass out of this country, get back to the hellhole you belong to and leave my country in peace!

Sol:

I have been following this discussion with interest. BTW, well said Robbie! Your comments in a way remind me of what my psychiatrist friend tells me about islam: islamics suffer from an inferiority complex, delusions of persecution and extreme suspicion! He says, these are well known symptoms and signs of paranoid schizophrenia. I guess, the islamics are suffering from schizophrenia, religiously speaking! islam IS suffering from extreme psychosis. I recently visited the Wailing Wall (it was a real spiritual experience) and if you visit Palestine, you will know how deluded and schizophrenic islam has become. Pakistan, I am sure, is no different!

Aamir Ali:

Robbie:

Your knowledge of Islam is garbage and based on tricks. However you can continue your war against Islam till the year 3000.

All terrorists are terrorists and terrorism is related to.....Politics.

Robbie:

Read “Infidel” by Ayaan Hirsi Ali and “The Trouble with Islam” by Irshad Manji. Another good book is “Why I am not a muslim” by Ibn Warraq. You know, these authors recently gave a joint statement/declaration which is as follows: We recommend separation of religion from the state and the observance of universal human rights. We recommend governments of the world to reject Sharia law, fatwa courts, clerical rule, and state-sanctioned religion in all their forms; we further oppose all penalties for blasphemy and apostasy, in accordance with Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; and hope that muslims all over the world eliminate practices, such as female circumcision, honor killing, forced veiling, and forced marriage, that further the oppression of women. Now, most radical muslims would have serious issues with these “recommendations”.

One of my good Pakistani friends Omar, with whom I have had hours of discussion on religion, is by the way, an apostate. He converted to Christianity. Thankfully, he lives here in Australia, so he will be safe from your shariah law!!

A key issue most religious scholars have with islam is that it does not respect pluralism. It is a theocratic religion. Islam has been and continues to be a violent religion. It was spread by the sword and it believes in aggressively converting or conquering “infidels”. This infidel mentality has landed muslims in their current predicament where the the rest of the world views them with suspicion.
My dear friends, how would explain the fact that islam is in conflict with all major religions of the world: Judaism in the Middle East, Christianity in the Balkans, Chechnya, Nigeria, Sudan, the Philippines and Indonesia, and Europe; and Buddhism and Hinduism in South Asia and Taoism and Confucianism in Western China?

Robbie:

I don't think India or Pakistan is the problem. It is the vile cult of islam that is the problem.

Islamist pigs will argue about how their quran is a peaceful book and how islam advocates tolerance. Just watch a few videos (links posted below) about islamic intolerance and barbarism all over the world and read a few currents events. I challenge you: take any region in the world, and any one week period, any time in the last, say, 50 years and you will have a list of islamic terrorism and atrocities, a list big enough to fill a few thesis.

What about forced conversions? Were it not for forced conversions, most of India would have been Hindu and Buddhist, including all the pakis arguing on this blog! As to why all people were not forced to convert, it was sheer survival. The mughals survived on “jiziah” which all non-muslims had to pay so forcing all the population to convert would not have worked to their advantage, would it?

And in this religion of "peace", they have death as a punishment for apostasy. You islamics have a funny way of selectively quoting verses to try to show other about your “tolerance”! What do you have to say to the islamist doctors involved in the terror plot in UK? And what about the stupid riots over the cartoons in the Danish newspapers?

A few examples from the “book of peace”:

60:4 We can pray for guidance for the idolators, not forgiveness, since God’s law is that idolatry is the only unforgivable offense (4:48 & 116). Hadith # 284 The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and pratice them as such.

“Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them” (Sura 9:5). “When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom” (Sura 8:57).

“To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers” (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised.

Then you say suicide bombing has nothing to do with islam. Really? What about the “houris”, the 72 virgins? What about killing the kafirs? To quote your “book of peace” and just one quote today:
9:29 Kill the unbelievers, unless they agree to pay the Jizyah in humiliation and subjugation.
What do you say to that? I know what your next “defense” will be! Please don’t start with the “out of context” argument because we all know that the quran wasn’t written down in chronological order. It was written down in verse length. And 9:29 is a special verse. It is the last verse to be revealed so it has the force of abrogation. It contradicts any previous verses (I hope, as a muslim, you know what abrogation of verses means?). So, according to 9:29, muslims are supposed to either convert all disbelievers to islam or kill them or force them to pay the Jizyah with submission.

SO IT IS NOT AN ISSUE OF WHICH COUNTRY IS WORSE…IT IS ISLAM THAT IS A BIG PROBLEM. LOOK ALL OVER THE WORLD AND YOU WILL KNOW WHAT I MEAN…LOOK AT TERRORISM ALL OVER THE WORLD. ALL MUSLIMS ARE NOT TERRORISTS BUT ALL TERRORISTS ARE MUSLIMS!

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

JUHI - Thanks again for your valuable vote for Pakistani singers.

Your comments are again typically that of an ignorant person. Do not be a MONEY WANNA DO WHAT A MONKEY SEE and read this blog thoroughly before commenting further.

You HINDUS have not changed either for a longer time than us Muslims. So, what's the point? Just because you show Kareena Kapoor or Bipasha Basu and likes thereof in swimsuits and kissing in your movies, which are getting story-less and more vulgar everyday, means that your race is more secular???? How old are you JUHI really?????? 10 or 11???

Aamir Ali:

Juhi:

I think you and Nvideta need to learn the meaning of the word "objective" before making posts. All I see in your posts is hatred and over-generalization.

Based on your tactics, I declare Hindus a genocidal and criminal people because most criminals in Indian prisons are Hindus and most genocides in India have been committed by Hindus against Muslims and Sikhs.

Do you accept my argument?

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

AAMIR ALI - Well Said on Kashmir and I like your bucket comment too :-)

However my friend it will not effect the hatred filled and racially indoctrinated mindset of the likes of upper caste Hindus like JUHI or NIVEDITA who tend to suppress reality at the cost of blaming others for their own ills. This blog is dominated mostly by Indian Americans residing in DC and Virgina area who though live in America (India's too dirty and backward..yuck!) but try to defend the Indian motherland with such fruitless and monkey-logic arguments.

Aamir Ali:

Nvideta:

Your claims about minorities living it up in India is rubbish. Go check on Indian Muslims and lower caste Hindus to see their miserable state.

Its funny how Indians bash Pakistan, then complain about India-bashing. Proof to be found on this page.

Juhi:

The problem with Muslims here is they are not even willing to accept the atrocities, intolerance committed in the name of their faith.

I had voted many times for Pakistani singers on Indian TV show (Zee TV)Sa Re Ga. But I have realized that Indian secularism goes only one way. Muslims/Pakistanis will never be secular or respect people belonging to other reliigons especially Hindus.

Thanks Nivedita, for your objective post. But hey Muslims have not changed in 1600 years, so why even bother.

Aamir Ali:

JUHI and OTHER INDIANS:

Your tactic of putting all Muslims in one bucket and denouncing them is trickery. We can similarly put all Hindus who ever existed and condemn them for all crimes ever committed.

Kashmiris hate India and have suffered tremendously under the Indian Army. Get rid of the Indian Army from Kashmir, problem solved.

Jacob:

Juhi, the best thing for you is not to worry about rest of the world and/ or how the 52 Islamic nations are conducting themselves. Change yourself first to change the world. All the Indian comments on this blog defy the basic teachings of Mr. Gandhi. And you and Nivedita miss the point completely. The argument is not about who is right or wrong or more holier. The argument is about judging other people with hate as the main ingredient. As I have scrolled through this log I have seen the comments from Shehzad and others mainly in defense of bad mouthing from other Indians. Try dropping your harsh judgmental tone towards Pakistan, Pakistanis and Muslims in general to see what response you get from others.

Jacob:

Nivedita, exactly which India and what Democracy are you talking about when referring to your minorities? I do not agree with your views and please drop the patronizing tone. Thanks

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

I have to fully agree with NIVEDITA. Indian objectivity is at a loss here now!

An unbiased observer you say....who might that be? A Peruvian or a Slovakian? It is certainly not the likes of you wannabe Indians or Indian Americans.

EENT KA JAWAB YAHAN EENT SAY DIYA JATA HAI!

Go get this Urdu saying translated from people who actually live here!

See Ya and Ciao!

Nivedita:

Juhi: I don't think there is any point even posting any more on this forum since most people are not receptive to look at the situation objectively. Based on all the comments I think an unbiased observer will be able to see through all the jingoism and expose the truth for herself / himself. Good to see your comments, I'm glad we can be objective enough of our own country while not getting rattled by others spewing hatred.

Nivedita:

Aeizad Khan:

From what it appears, there is more anti-India bashing than not on this forum. Juhi DOES accept that India is not a saint as far as atrocities go, but none of you from Pakistan are willing to accept the same, instead you go on the defensive and spew vitriol. Call a spade a spade. Most Indians know exactly what wrongs are going on in India, we don't deny them. As for your rants on J and K, perhaps you should accept that the genocide there has been terrible for Hindus and Muslims alike. Terrorism has no religion, it massacres all alike.

As for a reality check on the caste system. It would surprise you all that this is the best time to belong to the underprivileged class in India since that class is getting all the benefits from the government. There certainly are horror stories of caste violence, and I for one believe that its going to take atleast another century to remove that bias not from the system, but from the mindset. In fact, all the Hindus who converted to Islam or Christianity still practice the caste system as is. So, religion does not make a difference here.

Jacob:
Minorities do not enjoy equal rights, they enjoy "more than equal" rights in India. Only a democracy permits that. As it is in the States.

Juhi:

To Jacob and "peace loving" Muslims:
I am not defending India but your defense of atrocities committed by Muslims seem to be attack on India/Hindus.

Yes, India is horrible with caste system, dowry system, female infanticide but that is no excuse for Muslims massacring hundreds of civlians on a weekly basis all over the world.

And I still can not get over 52 nations declaring themselves Islamic nations, and saying they respect all of humanity.

Aeizad Khan:

So on this blog, Pakistan-Bashing is OK, Muslim Bashing is OK but when you start Indian Bashing, people like Juhi appear with racist and anti-muslim remarks. Juhi, as Jocob said, try to grow up and real quickly!

Also, all of your questions have already been posted on this blog. So get busy reading girl and don't be a redundant Indian!

JACOB:

Do minorities have equal rights in Islamic nations? - from JUHI

Do minorities in India enjoy equal rights? Do shuders in India enjoy equal rights? Grow Up!!

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

JUHI - First, its not my paragraph. Its the report from Human Rights Watch website. Second, Indian Army kills many Muslims in Kashmir and that too while wearing their uniforms, do you think they would have taken it off for this massacre? Lastly, I am not going to answer any of your questions, if you want answers browse the internet and general available literature and read through a few of the posts above to get your reply on minorities. Since this blog is on Pakistan so I am only answerable for issues about Pakistan.

Why don't you first try and answer the question of the deplorable condition of minorities in your own backyard (that is if you live in your Incredible India and are not just a misguided INDIAN AMERICAN or ABCD - American Born Confused Desi) before you point a finger at anyone else.

Juhi:

Shehzad: Your very first paragraph talks about massacre of 36 Sikhs in Kashmir. That was carried out by your peace loving Muslims, who have similarly carried out many attacks against Hindu civilians in Kashmir and driven them out. Of course, Muslims do want any non-Muslims in Islamic nations (but they want equal rights in secular nations).

If the Indian army had carried out the attack, at the very least, they would not be wearing army uniforms.

Are you going to answer the question: Where are the minorities in Pakistan and other Islamic nations? Why does a nation need to declare itself after one particular religion, if it respects all of humanity??

Do minorities have equal rights in Islamic nations?

Juhi:

To all the India bashing Muslims above: The point you are trying to make is that India has bad human rights records as well. OK, I agree. But if I list the violence and terror committed by Muslims and Pakistanis all over the world, this blog will be 10,000 pages long. Here is partial:

9/11, massacre of 400 schoolchildren in Beslan,Russia, daily beheadings/killings in Thailand, Iraq, Pak, Afghan..., bombings in London, Madrid, Bombay, Delhi, Turkey, Morocco..... and don't forget hundreds of potential attacks foiled by police.

Pak is a source of most of the terror attacks including 9/11 (KSM, Taliban)

JACOB:

Indian democracy is a SHAM! and a FARCE!

World media is projecting India like a shinning star only to push it against China in order to support US-based interests in the region.

India is anti-US, pro-USSR. It has the largest communist party still existing. Lousy treatment of minorities within the Hindu religion is common let alone except the Indians to treat well the minorities from other religions.

I'd be impressed with India when the IOC decides to hold the next Olympics there. China is hosting them next year!

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

AEIZAD - Following is an excerpt from Human Rights watch report on India. http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/asia/india.html

On March 20, just before U.S. President Clinton's visit to South Asia, thirty-six Sikh men were shot dead in Chithisinghpora, Anantnag district, by unidentified gunmen reportedly dressed in army uniforms. In the weeks that followed, Sikh residents took to the streets demanding protection, while hundreds of Muslim villagers staged protests against Indian security forces. They alleged that in the aftermath of the Sikh massacre, blamed by the army on militants, many Muslim civilians had been "disappeared" or killed.

In early April, at least seven people were killed when police opened fire on Muslim protestors demanding the exhumation of the bodies of five men killed by members of the Indian army's Special Operations Group in Anantnag district. The protestors claimed that the men hadbeen detained in the aftermath of the Chithisinghpora massacre and killed in a "staged" encounter. On April 6, the charred and disfigured bodies were exhumed. DNA tests were performed to confirm their identities, but as of this writing, the government had not released the results.

On June 26, the Jammu-Kashmir state assembly approved a controversial autonomy plan that was subsequently rejected by the Indian federal cabinet. On July 24, the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen, Kashmir's largest armed guerilla group, declared a unilateral ceasefire and announced its willingness to enter into negotiations with Indian authorities. On July 29, India suspended its offensive against the group, but hopes of a peaceful resolution to the conflict were dashed by a series of massacres on August 1 and 2 that left ninety Hindu pilgrims dead in Pahalgam, in the Kashmir valley. The massacres were believed to have been carried out by militant factions opposed to the ceasefire, but reports suggested that some of the victims were killed by fire from Indian security forces. On August 8, Hizb-ul-Mujahideen called off the ceasefire, citing the Indian government's refusal to include Pakistan in three-way peace talks. Indian Home Minister L.K. Advani on August 22 rejected calls for an immediate judicial inquiry into the Pahalgam massacre.

Militants were believed responsible for several attacks against Hindus, who form a minority in the state. On August 19, a group of men carrying assault rifles entered two houses in the village of Ind, Udhampur district, and opened fire on the occupants, killing four. Two nights earlier, another group of gunmen had raided several Hindu homes in the village of Kot Dara, killing six. Some of those killed in the Kot Dara attack were reported to have been members of the local Village Defense Committee (VDC), established by the state government in the hill districts ostensibly to protect all of the region's inhabitants. The VDCs recruited their members almost exclusively from local Hindu communities, however, and were seen by militants as adjuncts of the Indian security forces.

Caste violence continued to divide the impoverished state of Bihar. There, the Ranvir Sena, a banned private militia of upper-caste landlords that had been operating with impunity since 1994, waged war on various Maoist guerrilla factions, such as the People's War Group (PWG). These guerrilla groups advocated higher wages and more equitable land distribution for lower-caste laborers. The cycle of retaliatory attacks claimed many civilian lives.

On April 25, upper-caste Rajputs shot and killed four Dalits and seriously injured three in Rohtas district, Bihar. Rajputs subsequently burned down the entire Dalit hamlet, leaving all twenty-five families homeless. The attack was reportedly in retaliation for the killing of two Rajputs a few days earlier by members of the outlawed PWG. On June 16, in Miapur village in Bihar's Aurangabad district, the Ranvir Sena slaughtered thirty-four lower-caste men, women, and children. Survivors reported that police left the scene when the attacking mob entered the village. The massacre was reportedly to avenge the killings by Maoist guerrillas of twelve upper-caste Bhumihars the week before, and thirty-four Bhumihars in March 1999. Some Ranvir Sena members were arrested in the weeks that followed, but there was no precedent for successful prosecutions in such cases.

Police blamed the July 13 killings of four upper-caste Hindus in Garwah district on the PWG. On September 13 the Maoist Communist Centre, another armed group, slit nine people's throats in Ranchi district. The victims included Muslims and tribespeople.

Bihar was not the only state affected by caste violence. On March 12, seven members of a Dalit family were burned alive in their homes by an upper-caste mob in Kolar district, Karnataka state. The attack was preceded by the stabbing of an upper-caste man in a nearby village. Although police were aware of escalating tensions in the area, they failed to take preventive action.

Attacks against Christians, which have increased significantly since the BJP came to power in March 1998, continued. By mid-year over thirty-five anti-Christian attacks had been reported throughout the country, with the states of Gujarat and Uttar Pradesh-both BJP-led-particularly hard hit.

Activists belonging to militant Hindu extremist groups such as the Bajrang Dal and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Council, VHP) were often blamed for the violence. Both groups are members of the sangh parivar, an umbrella Hindu organization that boasts the ruling BJP as its political wing. These Hindu groups blamed the violence on popular anger over Christian efforts to convert Hindus. While government officials at the state and central level condemned the attacks, they did little to prosecute those responsible.

On January 31 a year-long manhunt came to an end with the arrest in Orissa of Bajrang Dal activist Dara Singh. Singh was wanted in connection with several murders, including those of Australian missionary Graham Stuart Staines and his two sons in 1999. Christian relief at the arrest was tempered, however, by a state government order, believed to be aimed at limiting the activities of Christian missionaries, requiring a police inquiry before anyone adopted a new faith.

The state governments of Gujarat and Uttar Pradesh lifted a ban against civil servants joining the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (National Volunteer Corps, RSS), a sangh parivar member. In Gujarat, Delhi, and Orissa, district administrations conducted surveys to assess the activities and whereabouts of minority community members and leaders. Meanwhile, the BJP and its allies continued to implement their agenda for the "Hinduization" of education, mandating Hindu prayers in certain state-sponsored schools and revising history books to include what amounted to propaganda against Islamic and Christian communities.

On April 11, three Christian missionary schools were ransacked and six people beaten in related attacks by the Bajrang Dal in Mathura, in BJP-led Uttar Pradesh. The group sought to justify its actions by calling the schools "machines for conversion." On April 21, a group of Christians was attacked near the city of Agra. These attacks followed the beating to death of two tribal Christians in Hazaribagh, and an attack on two nuns and a priest in Mathura.

On June 7, a Catholic priest was battered to death while sleeping outside his school in Uttar Pradesh. Government officials were quick to rule out any religious motive, attributing it to burglary. Within days the sole witness to the attack, Vijay Ekka, died in police custody. Ekka had told parishioners who visited him in detention that he was being tortured by the police and that he feared for his life. Two policemen were arrested and a magisterial probe was ordered after a Christian organization filed a complaint.

In May, the National Commission for Minorities (NCM), a government agency, issued a report stating that attacks against Christians were either accidental or the unrelated actions of petty criminals. Outraged Christian activists said the report showed that the government condoned attacks on Christians. Earlier reports by the NCM, issued before it was overhauled by the central government in January, had recommended prosecutions for such attacks and accused the government of willful neglect at all levels.

In June, a series of blasts damaged Christian churches in Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, and Goa. A month later, crude bombs were set off in two more churches in Karnataka. In August, police charged members of a Muslim sect, allegedly based in Pakistan, with masterminding the attacks. Human rights activists maintained that the arrests were meant to deflect attention from Hindu hardliners' campaign of anti-Christian violence.

On July 14, the Maharashtra state government announced its intention to prosecute Bal Thackeray, leader of the right-wing Hindu organization Shiv Sena, for his role in inciting Bombay's 1992-1993 riots in which over 700 people, the vast majority of them Muslims, were killed. The decision to prosecute came two years after a government-appointed judicial commission had named Thackeray as one of those responsible for the violence. On July 25, amid rioting by Shiv Sena supporters, Thackeray was arrested only to be released a few hours later after a judge ordered the case closed on the grounds that the statute of limitations relating to the incitement charges had expired.

Violence in the northeastern states, particularly Assam, continued throughout the year, claiming many civilian casualties. Members of the United Liberation Front of Assam (ULFA), a militant group seeking Assam's independence from India, repeatedly clashed with the police and with surrendered ULFA members working with the government, known as "SULFA." The Bodo Liberation Tigers (BLT) fighting for a separate homeland for the Bodo tribal people extended their ceasefire by one year beginning September 15.

In April, the Law Commission of India recommended the introduction of the Prevention of Terrorism Bill into parliament. If enacted, the bill would reinstate a modified version of the notorious Terrorist and Disruptive Activities (Prevention) Act (TADA), repealed in 1995. TADA had facilitated tens of thousands of unjustified arrests, torture, and other violations against political opponents, social activists, and human rights defenders. Human rights organizations protested against the bill arguing that, if enacted, it would have similar effects.

In a positive move, the law commission also called for sweeping changes to the country's rape laws following an increase in the incidence of sexual violence. Women's rights activists welcomed this recommendation. Female infanticide persisted as the female to male ratio continued to drop-a reflection of the lower status of women and girls, who were more likely to be deprived of food, education, or health services, or to be seen as an economic liability under the dowry system.

Women whose relatives were sought by the police continued to be detained. In February, in Tamil Nadu, twelve women were illegally detained and tortured and repeatedly sexually assaulted in custody because of their ties to a suspected robber who had himself died in police custody. The National Human Rights Commission, a government-appointed body, also took particular note of alarming numbers of deaths in police custody.

Police brutality against Muslim students of the Jamia Millia Islamia, an institution of higher education in Delhi, made national headlines. On April 9, while searching for two criminal suspects, hundreds of police broke into one of the institution's dormitories and physically assaulted Muslim students, destroyed their property, and vandalized the campus mosque.

Two days earlier, members of the State Reserve Police beat and arrested up to forty-six demonstrators following a protest against the proposed Maroli-Umbergaon Port Project in Gujarat. While all were released on bail within forty-eight hours, six of the protesters were beaten in custody by police. One, Col. (retired) Pratap Save, suffered a brain hemorrhage, went into a coma, and died from his injuries on April 20.

In June, the Indian navy alerted Sri Lankan authorities to the presence of forty-seven Sri Lankan refugees who had become stranded on an island between the two countries while fleeing to India. A Sri Lankan naval vessel then picked them up and took them back to Sri Lanka. In August, Indian authorities in Mizoram state forcibly repatriated over one hundred ethnic minority Chin refugees who had fled from Burma.

Aeizad Khan:

Here is what I found at http://www.humanrightsblog.org/archives/cat_india.html

India

India has not ratified the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CAT) with torture remaining rampant as a method of criminal investigation in the country. Even in more developed areas of India, from the point of view of the educational level of the people, like Kerala, torture is still common. The widespread use of torture occurs despite commendable judicial decisions, such as the famous Basu vs. the State of West Bengal, which laid down detailed rules on arrest, detention and the like, which, if applied, would lead toward the elimination of torture. The prevalence of torture is also not due to the lack of forensic facilities or forensic training available to the Indian police; for in recent years, there has been considerable sophistication achieved with regard to equipment and training. Torture though remains endemic due to other factors, such as bribery and corruption and the lack of a speedy and efficient disciplinary control mechanism. The tolerance of torture by higher-ranking officers and some prominent politicians of the central government as well as various states has not ceased. The failure of the Indian government to ratify CAT is itself a manifestation of the irresoluteness on the part of the state to bring this evil practice to an end.

In addition, India’s record on delays in adjudication, including matters of criminal justice, are among the worst in the world. Court cases may go on for five or 10 years or even longer—delays in the judicial system that virtually distort the whole process of justice. The prevalence of these delays prevents the possibility of judicial enforcement of the basic rights of the people. While the higher courts still produce significant judgments, the justice that the average litigant receives is still of a primitive nature. Delays allow corruption and negligence. Accusations of corruption among some of the judiciary of all ranks are now an open accusation that has not been reputed in any credible way.

Another major problem facing the country is the caste system. Despite many commitments expressed by India’s best-known leaders since independence to end this great social divide, it is still one of the greatest obstacles to progress in Indian society. Dalits, or “Untouchables,” for instance, are among the worst victims of torture and other abuses of human rights in the country. Dalits also suffer from delays in justice and the absence of access to justice. Thus, their misery is specifically linked to serious defects in the criminal justice system.

The absence of justice also contributes to deeply entrenched poverty and starvation. The AHRC’s studies on starvation deaths have revealed that there have been deaths caused by starvation even due to the negligence of magistrates who have particular responsibilities relating to these matters.

In short, the neglect of justice in India is of such a proportion that it challenges India's claim of being a vibrant democracy. India's democracy, in fact, is fundamentally flawed and is unable to maintain the rights of its ordinary folk. The powerful, for the most part, are still above the law.


# # #

About AHRC: The Asian Human Rights Commission is a regional non-governmental organisation monitoring and lobbying human rights issues in Asia. The Hong Kong-based group was founded in 1984.
Asian Human Rights Commission
19/F, Go-Up Commercial Building,
998 Canton Road, Kowloon, Hongkong S.A.R.
Tel: +(852) - 2698-6339 Fax: +(852) - 2698-6367

Also visit the website at http://www.derechos.org/saran/india/ to see your Human Rights Record in India.

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

ANONYMOUS - You have forgotten to mention the massacre of hundreds of Muslim minorities by Hindu extremists in recent riots in India (I forget the name of the city). Also, and more recently, Hindu extremists had burnt alive many innocent Muslim families traveling in a train between India and Pakistan. Indian Government is yet to catch or punish the Hindu murderers. Lastly, also the famous incident of ancient Barbari mosque which was again ruthlessly demolished a few years back by Hindu extremists and until to date is yet to be re-built despite Indian court orders in favor of reconstruction.

BJP and the organization led by BAL THACKERAY are equally as vile as any religious extremist party in Pakistan or anywhere else. The difference is however that both of the parties above have been in control of India for a long time. No religious party in Pakistan has ever won, since 1947, any majority in Pakistan to establish full government control.

No such hateful crimes at this level have ever happened against any Pakistani minorities. I am all ears......REDDY!

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

ANONYMOUS - You have forgotten to mention the massacre of hundreds of Muslim minorities by Hindu extremists in recent riots in India (I forget the name of the city). Also, and more recently, Hindu extremists had burnt alive many innocent families traveling in a train between India and Pakistan. Indian Government is yet to catch or punish the Hindu murderers. Lastly, also the famous incident of ancient Barbari mosque which was again ruthlessly demolished a few years back by Hindu extremists and until to date is yet to be re-built despite Indian court orders in favor of reconstruction.

No such incidents have ever happened in Pakistani minorities.

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

REDDY says - I will post a reply on the 14th as I am busy now, you guys made some interesting points.

I cannot wait to hear more of your authentic commentary and balanced viewpoints. I will respond in kind accordingly to your predictable commentary on 15th August.

Koshur:

AAMIR ALI: Koshur
The Indian Army is an occupation army. Please confirm that with the Kashmiris.

Dude, I AM a Kashmiri. You on the other hand are not. That's why I keep telling you to stop speaking for us.

billoo bhai:

Newsweek, you need to close down this website. Needlessly, it is filled with racist, anti-religous, anti-social hate mail that lacks civilized tone. There is no merit in showing messages that encourage bad behaviour.

Thank you.

Reddy:

BV, Anonymous and Shehzad,

I will post a reply on the 14th as I am busy now, you guys made some interesting points.

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

NIVEDITA - I do not need your or anyone else's proof or preconceived notions to tell me about Pakistan. I am well aware of what Pakistan is as I live here. You talk about Mullah's as if they are controlling Pakistan. That is a typical ignorant statement within itself from a person who actually knows nothing about Pakistan and bases his or her opinion on anything & everything but the ground realities.

Secondly, you very naively point a finger at us of ranting whereas have a look see to judge for yourself who started the anti-Pakistan racist spewing first in this blog. It was your countryman REDDY. (ULTA CHOR KUTWAAL KO DANTAY!). Indians at all levels instigate anti-Pakistan propaganda sentiments and then become angel faced when they are confronted. That is unfortunately has been the nature & inevitable character of your nation for the last 60 years.

Have you seen your media? From state television DOORDARSHAN to NDTV they do not loose any opportunity to degrade Pakistan whenever they can. Our media just responds in kind. My suggestion for you would be to take some time out to read few of our newspapers and have a look at our vibrant media to get an idea of who we are.

Lastly, your comment about access to the internet again displays your complete ignorance. Do you know how many people have high speed internet access in Pakistan? More than you have in India.

I do not give two cents about the Indians nor what you do or don't do, but if you try to act HOLIER than you really are and judge or point a finger at Pakistan or Pakistanis without having any idea of ground realities, then you bet your ignorant behind you'll hear from the educated likes of me and others.

Internet is full of reports against India and the rest of the world for that matter. The world media too writes about anything and everything under the sun. Before you go running around with your hands up in the air yelling THE SKY IS FALLING, try to check with the people who actually know the situation on ground.

Out of curiosity & for the record, what is your full name and where do you actually live?

Nivedita:

I don't have to give you proof Shehzad that Pakistan is falling to pieces. All you need to do is read the "unbiased" news which I'm assuming you have access to since you are posting on this site. As far as "pseudo" Indian names are concerned, an example of one person who does not use his name need not necessarily be Indian and for the most part, I don't think Indians are scared to use their names especially in the media. We don't have a dictator or a group of crazy mullahs hunting us down because we said something against what they believe in.

If you want to fight my friend, fight fair. All I'm saying is acknowledge the wrongs perpetuated in the name of Islam instead of getting all defensive and calling me racist. I don't think any of the comments I made were even remotely racist. Perhaps you need to re-read your English dictionary. Also, it would do you a lot of good as also your fellow compatriot Aamir to stop abusing India to deflect attention from the state of affairs in Pakistan. Face it guys, your media as also your government has been doing exactly that for 60 years now. Do you think its made a difference to India? NO. Thats why, you ought to focus on your country and since you are so patriotic, do something about it rather than rant about India and Indians on this forum. That might do Pakistan a lot more good you know!

I'm assuming that both of you are educated people given your access to the internet and your "apart from the rant" English. Ranting against anyone is not going to change how radicals in Pakistan are destroying it. So, stop giving excuses and help your country instead.

Aeizad Khan:

Lower caste hindus in India are constantly unhappy with the way they are mistreated in Hinduism. That is why conversions to other religions thrive in India and so you have bigger minorities.

Minorities in Pakistan however feel safe to practice their religions and Muslims are quite happy the way they are being in a caste free religion. That is why minorities in Pakistan are of a lower number and conversions are few and far between.

Next Question?

Aamir Ali:

Koshur:

The Indian Army is an occupation army. Please confirm that with the Kashmiris.

Reddy:

State Departments says a lot about India and human rights groups say a lot about India as well. Read that up while you are reading about Pakistan.

Muslims certainly ruled India for 1,000, including the Mughals. It is Islam's spirit of tolerance, that India today remains Hindu majority, the same with Spain which remained Christian majority under the Moors and Russia under the Tartars.

The rest of the foul comments made by Indians demonstrated their lack of knowledge about anything.

Anonymous:

BALA SRINI says - idiotic,imbecilic and vitriolic punches and counter punches only brings the discussions to a very low level of denomination of hate which is counterproductive - AND THE AWARD FOR THAT GOES TO......(drum roll please).......REDDY/ KENT the RACIST from India.

For the rest who raised the minorities question.

Read this weeks Newsweek to see how your largest Muslim Minority is doing in India. I live near Taxila, so I know the place better that what all of your mythological Hindu texts tell you.

Minorities in Pakistan, low in number they may be, are doing much better than in Indian la la land. We have the second most holiest site for Sikhs in Hasanabdal. Ask the Sikhs, whom your government massacred only a few years ago, on how they are treated by Pakistanis? The Bohra Class is one of the richest minorities in Pakistan. Christians are also thriving as a minority should. Most of my friends are Christian. Hindus are thriving community in Karachi, Sukkur and other areas. They celebrate Holi and other religious functions very normally. Even our Parliament has Hindu, Christian MNA's. Christians have been in our defense forces for a very long time, now we also have Sikhs in the Army. Except for a few condemnable recent incidents, they have co-existed in these communities for centuries. So your misguided information on Pakistani minorities is viciously laden with prejudicial ulterior and preconceived motives.

Lest you forget, it was your intolerant Hindu zealouts who burnt the Christian Preacher from Australia along with his two innocent young sons? and that too just because he was converting your low caste Hindus into Christians. If that is not a sign of a intolerant, racist and prejudiced society I don't what is. Your Incredible India is littered daily with such incidents most of whom go unreported due to the sheer volume.

So again, drop your HOLIER THAN THOU broken record like screaming!! You are naked in this world just like everyone else!!

Mitch:

Hey Kent why are you being so prejudiced towards Pakistanis? Have you been to Pakistan? Seems not! I have lived there for 10 years for my work and have found the Pakistanis to be highly gracious, very moderate and intelligent folks. Don't be a racist, you'll live longer

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

KENT voluntarily joins the racists group from India. Thanks again for being an bigot, anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistani and sharing your up bringing and piss poor gene pool type which is obvious from the quality of your spellings and your frustrated comments.

NIVEDITA - Thanks, I wasn't aware that DOES IT MATTER is an Indian name. Noted for future conversations. Your racist nature and quality of education is also evident from your comments. By the way do send me the copy of your PhD in HISTORY OF THE WORLD. I'm curious which institution was dud enough to issue you one to become an expert on world affairs an/ or Pakistan.

BV:

Reddy,

Your comment "Now these poodles act tougher than their masters just to conciel their shame."

We have to denounce religious dogma in both/all ways! The religious extremist of the Muslim world surely deserves the treatment it is getting. I am sorry for the similar treatment to the good soles who embraced that religion for the good of themselves and the world.

Most of the "Hindutva" people in the north western part of India are people from Persia/Prussia (Current day Iran). They have adopted Hinduism of late ( relatively). Yet they are the hardcore Hindus in India. It is so sad, the religion itself is known by the name that the Persians called the region for. Sindhus became Hindus. Farsi language can be considered the mother of Hindi and Urdu.

It is that way for any religion. Christians are no different either. The most dogmatic ones are the ones who became Christian recently. Modern civilizations like America( I think it can be classified as one) does not even escape that trend. America is dominated and will be dominated by the extreme people who came here last. Even Israeli extremists are those people who made their aliyah, recently. Your thought may be true, the poodles always want to act like their masters and go overboard.

The irony is that all religions are created for people to be sane and cool headed. But there are those people, who embrace a religion primarily to show off. They consider religion to be one more of the brands that they wear everyday. But unlike the commercial brand, the religious brand is considered to be of class. So, they wear it on their collars with a leash. Power-crazy leaders see the leashes and collect them and use it to their advantage.

The only way we can get out of this endless cycle of religious/ethnic/geographical hate is to have a cool head, which appreciates and respects people of different values. Even the cool headed guys become extremists because of the herd. Let us/the civilized world cut off the extremists thoughts.

Peace,
BV

Khalid:

A Pakistani saying that is becoming global now:

ENEMITY WITH AMERICA IS DANGEROUS....
(Iran, Libya, Korea...)
BUT FRIENDSHIP WITH AMERICA IS DISASTOUROUS....
(Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan.... soon India will join in the list)

bala srini:

idiotic,imbecilic and vitriolic punches and counter punches only brings the discussions to a very low level of denomination of hate which is counterproductive.however certain fact need to be established;suchas 1)only minority democratic domicile of large muslim population is indian,2)indian muslim population has progressively increased as minority population achieving the distinction of second largest muslim populus in the world.3)kashmir is a region not entirely populated by muslims but hindus,sikhs,budhist christians also live there that being the main bone of contention the indian secular democratic pluralistic constitution will never allow it to become a pakistan which to day unfortunately stand for every thing that is opposit.if true secular constitutional pluralistic democracy is established in pakistan then there wont be any discussions like i saw in this blog.i pray to a universal supreme being to give the wisdom to pakistani leaders to have the vision to create a great nation which will feed all poor pakistanis so they will have peace of mind and body to be tolerant of all people like it was during the zenith of enlightened TAXILA.

Kent:

Shezad Ali Mir,

Your hate filled invective and the venomous prejudice you harbor against people of other religions is not your fault. It is the result of systematic indoctrination that all Pakis go through right from a very early age. You are a bastard creation of the Generals and the Mullas. I feel sorry for you and others of your ilk. No doubt the Bengalis didn't want to have anything to do with pukis like you.

BTW you never replied to the quesiton as to what has happened to all the minorities that were in Pakistan. Why has their number dwindled so much? Oh wait, maybe there are more people like you in Pukistan? That explains why.

Irfan Ahmad:

Guys guys guys, Shehzad is a very dear old school friend of mine. I am a Pakistani too like him. I stand for my country and certainly get offended on hearing a negative remark or sarcasm on my country (like everybody else will). It is natural.

I browsed thru some of the conversation thread and thought to just write a little. Are we going anywhere with this. I guess not. I presume all involved in discussions are literate and perhaps professional people. I also presume, we are somewhat relatively of the age group who make or break nations. We are not school boys nor we are done with our lives. We as younger generation should do something that can change and make this world more peaceful and safer place for all. We bear this responsibility on our shoulders. So my message to all is to put behind our little differences, mistakes and short comings and let's join hands and move forward together to stand jointly against terrorism and evil forces. We are young, smart, open-minded and most of all we are on the driving seat! Let's do better before we disappear and leave good examples for next generation. Let's not repeat the same mistakes.

Nivedita:

Aamir Ali:

"oh and by the way "Reddy", Islam neither permits nor justifies the killing of Non-Muslims."

Really dude, is that why there are so many Islam inspired attacks on "infidels" be it in India or UK or the US?

Get real and accept the fact that followers of Islam do kill in the name of Islam.

I just think you don't want to see the truth though its staring you right in the face. Well buddy, Pakistan is falling to pieces right now and though India has seen Pak sponsered terrorism for decades now, we are marching ahead.

If you want to get anywhere ahead, face reality and work towards a secular Pakistan and not by spewing hatred against India. Its not worked in the last 60 years and there's no reason it will in the future.

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:
No one is using pseudo names here, your ignorance on India and Indian names is proven by your comment. And thereby, it also proves that the history you've been taught is amazingly inaccurate and WRONG.

Koshur:


Aamir Ali: The Indian Army was never invited to Kashmir and is not considered a defense force. It is considered an occupation army, that is why Kashmiris rebel against it from time to time. Kashmiris dont consider themselves Indians.


I am sorry, but you're just flat out wrong. And please stop speaking for me and other Kashmiri people. You are not one of us, stop representing yourself as one.

Reddy:

So US state dept is lieing, People on Wikipedia are lieing and all human rights groups are lieing
and about everyone else in the world is lieing.

I guess I should accept it because muslims are saying it.

Muslims never ruled india for 1000 years. The only empire that ruled all India for sometime is Mughals and many of them were secular.

Hindus never stopped fighting them, thats why we are still here. Ofcourse they did a good job in converting many Hindus be many means including violence and thast why you are a muslim.

Look back into your ancestry and chances are 8 out of 10 in paksitan have Hindu roots running thousands of years.

Now these poodles act tougher than their masters just to conciel their shame.

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

DOES IT MATTER - So you know some local jargin, a few famous names from both sides of the fence and have seen a few Indian movies....so what does that prove?......absolutely nothing...zipp....nada!!

As I have said, this blog is utterly infested by typical Indian racist and backward mindset.

Also, why are all the INDIANS using pseudo names in this BLOG?? Boo!! are you scared of something? Baghal mein Churi aur munh par ram ram??

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

This blog seems to be dominated by genetically racist INDIANS and/ or INDIAN ORIGIN AMERICANS. Reddy is doing a great job of leading the pack!

Aamir Ali:

oh and by the way "Reddy", Islam neither permits nor justifies the killing of Non-Muslims. That is why after 1,000 years of Muslim rule, India remained a Hindu population.

Aamir Ali:

Reddy:

Your knowledge of Pakistan, Islam and Muslims is very poor and your statistics are all wrong.

Its of no surprise to me that killing Muslims is not considered a big deal in India. It explains the thousands who have been slaughtered by the Indian army and Hindu mobs.

Reddy:

Aamir,

Stop the dance and answer the question with a straight face

From 1947 ti now Muslims in India became 200 million from 30 million.

In pakistan Hindus went from 20% to less than 2 percent.

If you cant stomach Indian army killing few thousand muslims how would you expect us to stomach the fact that millions of hindus vanished from pakistan.

So It only pains when a muslim gets hurt not the other way.

Truth is for a muslim everyone else is a fair game and they are absolutely permitted to kill them. Given that.. everyone else has the right for self defense by any law on earth or nature. so any killings of muslims are completely justified and can only be called self defense.

Oh..see how your own theory came back to bite your own rear.

Aamir Ali:

Reddy:

Wikipedia can be edited. The State Department also has a lot to say about India, if you care to read. There have been many anti-islamic and anti-minority killings in India, remember the anti-Sikh riots as well. The Indian record in treating minorities is very poor. Minorities lived in India since 1947 and live there today.

Koshur:

The Indian Army was never invited to Kashmir and is not considered a defense force. It is considered an occupation army, that is why Kashmiris rebel against it from time to time. Kashmiris dont consider themselves Indians.

Regarding all the insults Indians on this page have made, well I dont care to reply.

PBMiller:

I lived in Lahore for two years and found the majority of Pakistanis to be gracious, friendly people, imbued partly through their Islamic heritage with an admirable sense of hospitality regardless of their station in life. The aristocratic element of their society is particularly cultured and certainly puts the crasser breed of American to shame. I have been to India as well and also was generally impressed by the graciousness of its people. For real humanity, though, it is hard to beat the Nepalese (at least that was so 30 years ago.) The problem with the world, as these posts demonstrate, is not a particular country, religion or culture, but ignorance. "To know all is to forgive all" as the poet said.

Robbie:

i agree, jokes can be used the other way around. though i did have a hearty laugh at the humor.

and i think one of the poster's has provided the state dept link...thanx for the link, it was good and reliable information.

DOES IT MATTER:

Please refrain from stereotype jokes.. The same joke can be retold by changing the {Pakistani} to {Indian} and so on. and this is not a right forum for that.
And from plain name calling.. {XYZ} are pigs and so on... does not further the argument...

Mir/Reddy/Anonymous... please..... use statistics and examples to be funny... not jokes....

Robbie:

it is really getting hot around here with all the heated arguments. some nice jokes though! good sense of humor, but i don't believe in getting personal and attacking any faith or country. however the fact remains that intolerance is part of the fabric of any islamic nation (pakistan is no exception) and if pakistan can get away from radical islam and come to see what the modern world is going, it will be a much better place. of course that would also help the world get rid of radicals and fundamentalists to a great extent (one islamic nation at a time: baby steps). say no to radicalism, no to violence, no to intolerance, no to rigid religious laws, no to misogynistic behavior, no to polygamy, no to sariah law, no to madrassas. and say yes to open-mindedness, yes to religious tolerance, yes to progressive and secular behavior. let us all make this world a better place to live.

Anonymous:

What do Pakistanis in London use for contracepives?
Their personalities!


An insect falls into a mug of beer....
Englishman : Throws his mug away and w alks out
American : Takes the insect out and drinks the beer
Chinese : Eats the insect and throws the beer away
Indian : Sells the beer to the American and insect to the Chinese and gets a new mug of beer..
Pakistani : Accuses the Indian for throwing insect into his beer. Relates the issue to Kashmir. Asks the Chinese for Military aid. Takes a loan from the American to buy one more mug of beer.


Ashraf, the Pakistani went to London's Heathrow airport to buy his ticket back home to Rawalpindi. At the counter he found that he was 10 pence short of the fare. Having no other way out, he turned to all the other passengers and begged.." Will someone please give me 10 pence? I badly want to go back and meet my Abba and Ammi again!" "Here" said a guy standing in the queue, reaching into his wallet and handing him one Pound"..Keep the change and take nine of your country men with you!"

Anonymous:

Koshur:

The anti-Kashmiri pandit pogrom wasn't the only one. What about pogroms against all religious minorities in PAPISTAN? That is an on-going pogrom... dirty islamist pigs!!!

Koshur:

"Perhaps you are not aware of anti-Muslim pogroms in India such as Gujrat, Babri Masjid, Kashmir and many many others."

You are correct about the anti-Muslim rioting in Gujrat, but the only pogrom that occurred in Kashmir, was the one against Kashmiri Pandits.

Reddy:

Juhi,

Its not me saying please check the link.
Go to any human rights website, US dept of state.

Or you can take it by the mere silence from the otherwise ranting muslims in this forum.

Anonymous:

Juhi: Read the US State Dept statement mentioned above (reposting link here) to find out how religious minorities are treated in "open-minded tolerant" papistan!

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71443.htm

Juhi:

Question for all Pakistanis and Muslims: Where are the minorities in Pakistan (and all Islamic nations) and how many (percentage wise)? Do they have equal rights?

Is is true (as Reddy says) that Hindus have been reduced from 15% to 1-2% today since your formation?

Why does a nation need to declare itself after a religion if it respects all of humanity?

Koshur:

"Regarding Kashmir, the Indian army invaded in 1948, causing the problem that exists till today. If the Indian Army leaves, problems are solved. Kashmiris hate India and want to be rid of it."

First, you are factually and verifiably incorrect. It was Pakistanti tribals that invaded Kashmir and the Indian army that saved it. Even if you are from POK, in the eyes of those of us from the Valley, you are NOT a Kashmiri; do not dare to speak for us.

Anonymous:

See this link by the US state dept on religious atrocities of minorities in Papistan, oops, I mean Pakistan!

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71443.htm

Anonymous:

There have been severe and often institutionalized persecution of Hindus by Muslims in Pakistan since its formation in 1947.

The increasing Islamisation of Pakistan and antagonism against a majority Hindu India has forced many Hindus to leave Hinduism and convert to other faiths such as Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam. Such Islamisation include the blasphemy laws, which make it dangerous for religious minorities to express themselves freely and engage freely in religious and cultural activities. The promulgation of Sharia, Koranic law has also increased the marginalization of Hindus and other minorities.

Reddy:

On the other hand in india muslim population

Year Percentage
1961 10.7%
1971 11.2%
1981 11.4%
1991 12.1%
2001 13.4

these are official accounts but in reality its over 20% now. As many muslims dont participate in census.

Reddy:

a portion from the above link

Pakistan Demography:

In August 1947, at the end of British Raj, the population percentage of Hindus in what is today in Pakistan was perhaps as high as 15-20%, but would drop to its current total of less than 2 % in the years since partition. According to the 1998 Pakistan Census, Hindus constitute about 1.6 percent of the total population of Pakistan and about 6.6% in province of Sind. The Pakistan Census does not include Schedule Castes as Hindus who are a further 0.25% of national population[1]

Reddy:

Aamir,

for your further enlightenment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Pakistan

Reddy:

Aamir Ali wrote:

Reddy:
Non-Muslims have lived in India before 1947. That they are present today is no great achievement. Minorities in Pakistan enjoy rights, their religious places of worship protected by the govt. Improvements are definitely possible and desirable.

Aamir,

You are exactly right Muslims lived in India before 1947 and they became 200 million today from 30 million in 1947. What does that say about India, inspite of some minor issues here and there they are free in india to live their life the way they choose.

Now please tell me about Pakistan..how many minorities were there in 1947 and how many remain today after years of killings and rapings. Please enlightenme.

One more thiang..your ancestors were all hindu before they were raped and converted to Islam.

Aamir Ali:

Cela:
I grew up in Pakistan and had Christians and minorities in my school. Nobody mistreated them the way you claim. You may have had negative experienced, thats a pity.


Anonymous: Your tax dollars are for logistics to provide your troops in Afghanistan and to catch the terrorists whose evade your forces in Afghanistan.

Anonymous:

probably bcos my tax dollars that r meant to fight terrorists is being used to fund the nation "building"

S.N.Rao:

I never been to pakistan but I did hear about good infrastructure in Lahore. Can Mr. Bakshi share his thoughts on why Pakistan looks like having better infrastruture.

Cela:

Aamir: Don't you dare talk about minorities in Pakistan. I know first hand what it was like to be a minority Christian! Rights, you say? Bull, all bull! Plain hogwash. Don't fool people, everyone knows, it is alright to accept how Pakistan treats minorities.

Cela:

Aamir: Don't you dare talk about minorities on Pakistan. I know first hand what it was like to be a minority Christian! Rights, you say? Bull, all bull! Plain hogwash. Don't fool people, everyone knows, it is alright to accept how Pakistan treats minorities.

Aamir Ali:

Reddy:
Non-Muslims have lived in India before 1947. That they are present today is no great achievement. Minorities in Pakistan enjoy rights, their religious places of worship protected by the govt. Improvements are definitely possible and desirable.

Perhaps you are not aware of anti-Muslim pogroms in India such as Gujrat, Babri Masjid, Kashmir and many many others. Your hatred and overgeneralization of "Muslims" makes ur points very weak.

DOES IT MATTER:

Shehzad Ahmed Mir
"You'd better stop commenting here as Amar is ..........
{ Portion deleted}
Keep talking. The more you comment the merrier the world gets"


Which one is it? "stop commenting" or "keep talking"?

"Ye Ghoda-Chatur; Chatur-Ghoda... Yeh Amma Yeh Kya Hain Ji? Ek to Chatur Bolo Nahi to Ghoda Bolo"
- Another piece of Indian Waste; comedian Mahmood in stinky-smelly movie "Padosan"!

Reddy:

another fine example of muslim values ...happened in less than 24 hours.

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070022057

Reddy:

Shehzad

STILL NO INFORMATION ON MINORITY SITUATION IN PAKISTAN AND KASHMIR OR IN ANY MUSLIM COUNTRY.

Dont try to run away like a chicken...answer

Why is it there are more muslims in india than in Pakistan and no minorities in Paksitan when both had similar demographics 60 years back.

Reddy:

Nobody said there are no issues between majority and minorities in India. Forget a country.... show me a single family in the world without internal differences or issues. Sometimes they do get out of control. If they involve Muslims way too much out of control.

Gujarat and other incidents in india are always a reaction to muslim terrorism. Compared to what they do to others its miniscule yet condemnable.

India has more muslims than Pakistan, how many muslim countries can draw a similar parallel.

There are tensions and issues from time to time but muslims are free in India than in any part of the world.

Whatever you want to say about India or Hinduism you can say it any where anytime in the world including India and have no consequences. How about you Mr.Muslim

Cela F.:

Pakistan is a islamic theocracy and it is true that Muslims want to rule the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HiV7d3orfo

They want to set up a Caliphate and move forward with taking over Israel and the West. Wake up!

I lived in Pakistan as a minority and let me tell you, it was NOT a fun experience. People bullied me and made fun of my faith (even in front of the class). A teacher (Muslim of course) even burned a holy Bible because he believed it was a corrupt book. We were considered SECOND class citizen.

Islam itself (I meant the religion and its holy book) is not diverse, but the INTERPRETATION of the Qur'an is. Most (if not all) of the more peaceful forms of Islamic intrepretation existed in Islamic community where there is a mixed or syncretism with local belief, such as Indonesia (which mixed with their indigenous animism or Hindu/Buddhist past).

Peace in Islam can only be achieved when everyone is subject to the rule of Islam. What a hegemony? You want people to subject to you but you did not want to subject to anybody? What a life? But that's what Islam actually did when it grew stronger. Have you ever wondered why Islam grew so fast in its early year of expansion in the Middle East even though the Middle East used to have a strong Christian culture?

I am glad that I now live in this wonderful country where everyone has the right to practise whatever religion they want to, without fear of reprisals. God Bless America!

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

Hey ROBBIE - Try the same ''freedom of speech'' lecture to say something real or against Israel or the Jews in the USA. You will be shunned or sued or even put in the slammer faster than you can say 'SHALOM'. So much for the freedom of speech in your neighborhood. The same thing goes when you simply talk about Taliban or Allah or have an alternative opinion about anything else for that matter in the US. FBI is watching your rear-end 'buddy' so stay sharp and do not say anything wrong!

Aamir Ali:

The foul language of Robbie, Solomon and "Anonymous" is an example of American bigotry and ignorance. Such Americans should read Amar Bakshi's posts and also learn some more english.

Regarding Kashmir, the Indian army invaded in 1948, causing the problem that exists till today. If the Indian Army leaves, problems are solved. Kashmiris hate India and want to be rid of it.

Anonymous:

I hope we stop spending our tax dollars to support the terrorist nation of Pakistan, it is about time.

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

REDDY, SOLOMON and DOES IT MATTER (your pseudo name says it all)! -

Beautiful usage of English language guys! Thanks again for your full support to my stated assessment about your social mindsets & your pacific deep research laden comments about Pakistan & Muslims.

You'd better stop commenting here as Amar is getting ready to write more good things about his wonderful experience in Pakistan which will unnecessarily be bad for your health which is based on TV beliefs and narrow minded world vision.

Keep talking. The more you comment the merrier the world gets.

Robbie:

shahzad ahmad mir:

buddy...how many of your friends burnt and looted when Sir Salman Rushdie was awarded knighthood? Real tolerance, real freedom of speech and religion you guys practise! Same things with muhamed's cartoons, you guys had your pants in knots! why is that so? and the things they teach in those little "death schools". I am glad there are not more crazy nations like pakistan in this world; not to mention supporting terrorists in kashmir and afghanistan, hiding bin laden in the s$@#hole we know as pakistan

SYED FAROOQ HASNAT:

Its not only the Indian airports that are dirty, the whole country smells like a garbage because of over populated areas and un-hygienic nature of the Indian culture. Talking of treatment of minorities in India, the record speaks for itself. There are scores of instances in Kashmir, Assam and the treatment of Christian minorities. What to talk of the Muslim minority in places like Gujarat and elsewhere. There is just a facade at the top to give a false picture to the world.

I agree that India has a democratic system to conduct elections but not beyond that. Look at the caste system and the 70 % population living below poverty line.Bihar politics in particular speaks volumes for the Indian "democracy".

Solomon:

And FYI, I don't watch Fox News, that is not my source of knowledge!

DOES IT MATTER:

Shehzad Ahmed Mir

“At least we do not have any human beings standing with water pans to wash the butts off superior Hindus like the Shuders are forced to do in your country. India is a human sewage bin and a craphole where bastards are born everyday on footpaths and get to be on the internet just like you"

Beautiful sentiments Mir! Really help further the discourse!

I saw a postcard of Ambedkar, Phule & Kanshiram standing with butt-washing-water on the streets of Delhi the other day.
And yes, human waste like Gandhi, Ramanujam , Abdul Kalam, Ravi Shankar, Zakir Hussain & Salman Rushdie stinking up the whole world!
In fact, India did not have enough of its own waste so it imported some like “Dalai Lama” from Tibet!

Pakistan, by its definition is a land of pure!
In fact, I am so glad you got rid of that Kadiani piece of waste called “Abdus Salam” in time!
And seriously, what is up with that bastard Hoodbhoy, and that Kafir loving “Mazdak” and that human waste called “Abdul Sattar Edhi”? When are you going to exile them? In fact, why not send them to India? They will be happy there as "pigs in S@#$"

While Indian “Shuders” are butt-washing; Pakistan sends its children for beautiful Joyrides on camels’ backs! Who needs Disney rides when you can ride a camel in a race in Dubai!
And all the wonderful Madrassa education.. Even army bosses forego the elite school for; and foreign students from paradises like Sudan, Yemen and Somalia flock to that world class “premium private, mind opening, horizon broadning centers for learning”

Solomon:

To Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

Well, my dear mohammedan friend! How convenient! Did you just run out of ideas to post some smart-alecky comments? Or are you too busy trying to hide terrorists in caves behind your house? Oh, and what does your cult say about democracy, about the status of women in the family and society, about other religions, about non-believers? How many Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Pagans can freely practise their religions in pakistan without "open-minded" mullahs from your cult burn down their places of worship and attack them? How many madrassas openly preach anti-Americanism? Guess we should not go there at all. Oops...sorry! Just a word of advice though, don't go judging others.

Reddy:

SHEHZAD MIR:

I still didnt hear any information about Minority situation in Kashmir, Pakistan or any other muslim majority state.

There is only one thing the military is trained for "To shoot pigs like you in the butt".

Military entered the valley only after muslims started acting up. They were at the borders before.

Stop your typical Muslim loudmouthing about Zionists, Hindus, Christians, aliens and whichever comes to your mind. I wonder why muslims are the target for everybody for no reason and its always somebody elses fault that Muslims are the way they are.


You are not a Kashmiri..there is no such thing as Kashmiri, pakistani or Iraqi for muslims its just MUSLIM...I wish it was otherwise but u know better than me that you are nothing but a Muslim.
You do not have any allegienece to any country or place but ur relegion.


I am all for Pakistan being clean and green but lives matter more than that. I just want you to clean up your filthy brains the way you are claiming to be cleaning your country.

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

SOLOMON - Thanks again for supporting my argument about you ignorant Americans with your insightful comment!

Solomon:

Ignorant Americans, you say? The gall you have to say that! When you and your mullahs still live in the tenth century and practice the biogted, narrow-minded, wife-beating, misogynistic, polygamist intolerant cult called mohammedanism! And as to how many of us can tell that filth bin called pakistan on a map, how many sane people you know would keep a track of scum! We have a life... and that does not involve planning the death of innocent civilians or trying to wage a jihad or imposing shariah!

And OBL is a Saudi citizen but being supported by your pathetic cowardly government! Look at the log in your eye before you point out to a speck in the other's!!

Anonymous:

JACK - Osama bin Laden is not our Guest but he is a Saudi Citizen (the same Saudis to whom your US Government supports and bows their heads everyday) and he has been operating from Afghanistan. If your taxpayers money and the mighty US forces cannot find him despite your international gunghoism then God help the rest of us. In reality, you need villains like Osama to keep your high paying jobs in the US and to justify your through the roof defense expenditures.

Your calling us backward is hilarious!! How many of you ignorant Americans can even tell on a map where the rest of the word is let alone comment on its affairs??

I have lived in the USA for ten years. I have a degree in Engineering and a Masters in Business Administration from a US school and I have seen your society from inside out. Since I now live in Pakistan and I have seen both sides? What about you? when was the last time you had ventured out of your apartment in Suburbia whereever in US of A?

My offer to you to visit Pakistan still stands. Let me also know if you need some money to come down and I'll send you some. Cheers and have a good life!

Aamir Ali:

What the driver said about America using Pakistan as a condom, is very accurate and is how Pakistanis view America-Pakistan relations.

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

JACK - Let me clear your horizons a bit!

1. The US taxpayers money is not spent on Pakistani airports or our society rather it is spent on the US military hardware that we rarely & conditionally get.

2. You have spoken like a true American devoid of ground reality and basing your opinion on what the likes of your local news or your politicians tell you about the rest of the world.

3. Where did you hear about us teetering on self-destruction? Your local news? I rest my case!

4. Yes I agree that we Pakistanis have struggled with our politics and are currently hostage to a few radicals who are giving our country and our religion a bad name. Remember though, nothing in world history lasts forever. Remember, Libya?? USSR?? Pakistan is a lot better today from its citizens point of view then it was under the shamble democracy of two failed ex-Prime Ministers ten odd years ago.

5. If you are not like the rest of the Americans who are too busy in their mortgages, car payments, college funds, taxes, local news and sports on TV, I would expect you to judge the world
with both eyes open!!

Cheers and do visit us sometime that is if you can financially afford to do so!

Jack:

Mr. Shehzad - Are you titillated because an American citizen landed in Pakistan, and wrote something good about it? Seriously, if you guys could have a discussion without bringing Hindus and Jews up for all your ills, perhaps you would have a discussion. You calling someone else prejudiced is like the pot calling the kettle black. Yes, Hinduism has its problems with caste discrimination. Let's talk about the Ismailis and Khojas and the Sindhis and Mohajirs in Pakistan. Those Bengali Muslims in Bangladesh said good riddance in 1971 for a damned good reason, sir. Thanks for calling India a "human sewage bin." The pervasive stench of 3rd century BC backwardness, primitiveness, violence and bigotry comes from India's neighbor to the West, though. If your most famous guests have to hide in mountainous caves, as the rest of the civilized world is looking for them, well, I rest my case. Cheers!

DOES IT MATTER:

Juhi

“As far as your reaction to prayer: Well, it is an Islamic theocracy. The only reason for its formation was to pray to Allah freely”
Wrong on both counts!
Islamic Theocracy:
A boat load of Pakistanis will flame you for saying that they are “Islamic theocracy” . They like to pretend that it is a liberal, “softly secular” republic with Islamic ethos. (At least that is what Jinnah set out to build). In fact, Pakistani upper crust is frankly more enlightened and more liberal than their Indian Muslim counterparts (aka Shahabuddin, Sulaiman Sait, Syed Bhukhari et al)
Jinnah was a political Muslim. He used “Islam” to further his ambition. He was no less than a genius. (Nehru was a Goober compared to that man’s intellect. Thank God, there was Patel to do some "damage control"!) The last thing he would have wanted was a theocracy. Unfortunately the means he used to his end were unsavory. He rode the tiger that finally ate his dream.

The only reason for its formation was to pray to Allah freely…..
I see even hotter flames from Pakistanis….
Depending who is writing the history,
Pakistan was formed because the ex-rulers (the Muslim intellectuals) could not bear the thought of living in a society where their former subjects (aka the kafir Hindus) would control the collective destiny
OR
It was a bargaining chip Jinnah used to get his way and his bluff was called.

Now come on, you can pray even more freely to Allah IN INDIA.
You can block the streets three four city blocks 5 times a day
You can shout through 8 loud speakers. Just to make sure all sleepy Kafirs hear you at 5:00 AM, You can even time your azan exactly after the one from the next door mosque ends! That way the sleepy Kafirs get to hear the holy call for 45 minutes or more
In fact, if Red Mosque were to happen in India, I would doubt if Indian Government would have guts to storm it!

Jeremy:
I think you have diagnosed our problem! “No one watches PBS”! If more of us did, we would not be such a self absorbed ignorant bunch. It is never too late…. tune your TV to PBS and Radio to NPR….. If you can’t; at least make sure your kids (or any kids you are responsible for) watch it So at least the future will be brighter than the present.

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

AMAR - Welcome to Pakistan. Glad you have landed at Lahore Airport. Its a tradition for our Air Hostesses to offer prayers for the safety of all. Being a religious society, its a local norm. Lahore is an amazing city full of life and excitement. You will find a totally different world here beyond what you have been forced to believe while sitting outside the fence. Since you have already been to India so you would be better able to differentiate between the two countries. Just two comments, while in the US get to see www.pakistaniat.com to get the real local taste of ALL things that are Pakistan. Secondly, if you travel to Islamabad (which you hopefully will and that too on the state-of-the-art Motorway) let me be the first one to welcome you to my town. By the way, with the beard you have a striking resemblence to our former Cricket captain Inzimam Ul Haq and without the beard you are just fine too. Cheers and have a good stay here.

Jack:

Man, what is with this blog? Great, if you find Pakistani airports clean. Good for you - I guess that's where our US taxpayer money goes when it gets to Pakistan as the hundreds of billions of dollars of annual aid - into keeping airports clean instead of nabbing terrorists bent on destroying the world. Glad the first impression was good. Yes, India can be filthy. Is the Pakistani obsession for cleanliness why Pakistan struggles with democracy, as democracy can be messy, but looks, feels and treats far better than a military dictatorship? What happened - two countries acquired independence from the same colonial master a day apart almost sixty years to the day in Aug. 1947. Why is one teetering on self-destruction (and holding out the promise of more death and destruction to the rest of the world), and the other looks much better, though it certainly has its fair share of successes and failures? Could this blogger scratch beneath the surface, and ask deeper questions, please?

Shehzad Ahmed Mir:

TO REDDY - Hey Kook! First look into your own flithy Indian society before pointing a finger on Pakistan. At least we do not have any human beings standing with water pans to wash the butts off superior Hindus like the Shuders are forced to do in your country. India is a human sewage bin and a craphole where bastards are born everyday on footpaths and get to be on the internet just like you.

What do you know about Kashmir? I am a Kashimiri and I know better than anyone else on what is your half a million army is doing there? They are doing exactly what the Israeli Jews are doing in the Palestine. And when the Kashimiris bite back, your Army gets spooked and starts to kill the locals. What about the highest suicide rate in the Indian Army deployed in Kashmir? Your country-mates shoot their senior officers just because..

You are too God Damn prejudiced & genetically brainless to admit reality even it turns around and bites up your rear end. So drop your idiotic holier than thou attitude and get a life. My suggestion would be not to read Amar's experience further because its going to get very good for him while he is here and its going to become a nightmare for you for all the good things he will have to say about Pakistan in the coming days.

CT:

A PBS-type? I don't speak American. Does that mean "progressively biased spinmeister" or "publicly-funded because we stink so bad nobody would pay for us voluntarily"?

The comments are almost as good as the articles, except for the commenters' majority predilection for output from a predictably "progressive" worldview:

Those FOX viewers/Americans/Bush voters/Muslims/white devils (insert your preferred "5-minutes-of-hate" group here), they're all evil, ignorant, myopic, selfish, money-grubbing, earth-defouling, hate-filled, imperialistic, proletarian, insignificant lemmings--not like I who am so omniscient, tolerant, and compassionate (except when it comes to...)!

Juhi:

To Native Indian: You are right about Indian airports and pretty much all Indian cities. They are extremely dirty and polluted.
And God help you if you need to use the bathrooms.

DOES IT MATTER:

Bill T
In total, this is my 4th post (all were fairly brief) so I do not think I am posting “negative comments all over”. Having sojourned in all the countries in the subcontinent except the Maldives; I intimately familiar with the place. Hence perhaps my expectations were high and thus the tone generally critical.

Amar

Thank you for redrafting the title (and the smaller corrections)
I also have another suggestion. While in Pakistan, visit a bookstore and buy their textbooks. Especially those of “History” and “Pakistan Studies”! The ones that are learned by young Pakistani minds in their formative years! If you can not read the Nastaliq script, have some one read/transliterate/translate those for you.

native indian:

I subscribe to Amar's comment on India's airports. First impressions matter, and the first thing a visitor is faced with is the airport.

The excitement and anticipation that always builds up in me on my return trips to my homeland has always been punctured at the end of my flight, when I step into the harsh realities of India's airports.

Let's recognize the problem, then maybe we can fix it.

Reddy:

Amar,

Your reporting on airports and roads is very helpful but I hope you get to the issues that matter more soon. There are hundreds of posts about minority situation in Kashmir and how they were persecuted by Muslims and all the while Muslims complaining that they are the ones getting persecuted.

I dont expect you to do any investigative reporting but just like to see you ask them about those issues. Since you are in Pak you can ask them how they persecuted minorities and how the percentage of minorities went from 30 to less than 3 percent.

It would be great if you can tell them you cant cry foul when the rest of the world start to respond to your atrocities.

You hear them declaring Jihads on everyone because they are being threatened. Ask them why the rest of the world shouldnot declare a Jihad on them for being the SOBs they are to everyone else.

Anonymous:

Pakistan may have clean airports, but it has a very dirty political system that cannot get itself on the road of democracy. Both countries gained independence at the same time, so what gives?

Amar:

The cat seemed to like it. It looked hungry. And I give it credit for being more than a receptacle for food, a discriminating creature. And as I've been told, spicy is healthy.

'Does it matter' I've read your comments throughout my posts. Glad you are engaged. As to freedom fighters etc. please see the post I placed at the bottom of the previous article. Hopefully your other concerns will be addressed in due time.

ABC:

Well, hopefully Amar Bakshi knows better than the cat.

Jeremy:

No one watches PBS because it doesn't do a good enough job blending the ordinary, the daily, with the political and the academic. I'm no wonk, but I'm interested in this site because it moves from high minded to every day, like that Georgia Girl! And for a daily post a kirkure and kurkure doesn't really bother me.

Anonymous:

if the can't didn't like it, he wouldn't eat it

Bill T.:

Fox News? Who are you 'Does it Matter'? You often post negative comments all over the place, though your questions for Pakistan are good.

Juhi:

Well, describing a place you just landed in for the first time, as cleaner, more organized etc. from where you just were is not superificial.
Also I believe your project is to get people's thoughts on America and perhaps not to ask tough questions. But it would be nice if you do.

One question you may want to ask the Pakistanis is where are the minorities in their country and do they have equal rights?

As far as your reaction to prayer: Well, it is a Islamic theocracy. The only reason for its formation was to pray to Allah freely.

Does it Matter:

As a young Journalist, you can mold yourself into a “Fox News” type or a “PBS” type. Thus far the signs are pointing toward a “Fox News” type evolution!
Because:
* You seem to get gravitated toward superficial. (The Georgia Girl in India! Cleaner airport in Lahore!)
* You tend to get completely sold to an argument being made in from of you (Yasin Malik)
* You seem to have a penchant for controversial headline without understanding the context and history ( “Freedom Fighter”!)
* You do not have a very keen eye for the detail (What did Koya really say, or what was the Flight Attendant Praying to/for)
* You do take the time or make the efforts to get everything right
( Kahn for Khan , Kirkure for Kurkure)

You still have time! I believe we have plenty of “fox news” types… try to be a “PBS” material!

As far as Pakistan goes, you will find a highly westernized and charming upper crust.
After all most of the Muslim elite immigrated to Pakistan at the time of partition!
You will also find more outgoing people and hotter, prettier babes (Punjab… you see!)
You will find a love for food and music…
You will have to cut through this to find out what truly matters and why people after people think that it is a nuclear rogue state on the verge of collapse

abc:

Spicy things are not necessarily good things to feed cats.

Jeremy:

Very honest perspective again. I appreciated seeing how your viewpoint is changing. I think it speaks much to how US media shapes our perceptions of Pakistan and I appreciate following your views more!

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