Dr. Ali Ettefagh serves as a director of Highmore Global Corporation, an investment company in emerging markets of Eastern Europe, CIS, and the Middle East. He is the co-author of several books on trade conflict, resolution of international trade disputes, conflicts in letters of credit, trade-related banking transactions, sovereign debt, arbitration and dispute resolutions and publications specific to the oil and gas, communication, aviation and finance sectors. Dr. Ettefagh is a member of the executive committee and the board of directors of The Development Foundation, an advisor to the United Nations High Commission for Refugees, and an advisor to a number of European companies. Dr. Ettefagh speaks Persian (Farsi), English, German, French, Spanish, Italian, Arabic and Turkish.
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Ali Ettefagh
Tehran, Iran
Dr. Ali Ettefagh serves as a director of Highmore Global Corporation, an investment company in emerging markets of Eastern Europe, CIS, and the Middle East.
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My memory is shorter than thousands of years but memory seems to indicate Romans were there more than 60 years...
Ben Gurion quote is an interesting one, would like to review if you can point me to a nuetral or at least semi-nuetral source.
What you fail to respond to is how do you negotiate with someone who breaches an accord before you can even bring it to a legislature for affirmation? Who should be bound to peace whn their opposition claims to negotiate peace but follows up with immediate terrorist attacks? Surely you can recognize that point. Would you blame the USSR of the 1940s for violating the nonagression pact with the Germans when the Germans attacked?
Also missed was the question of why Israel deserves less respect than other Middle East nations in light of the very issues set out in my prior post?
Should continued settlements be forced on disputed territory by the Israeli government? No, that is worthy of criticism as only exacerbating the conflict. That's legitimate. But to blame solely the Israelis for not maintaining peace, is to either ignore reality or truly relagate oneself the real of apologist.
You are correct, there will be no absolute winner in the resolution of the Conflict over the Negev, Gallilee, Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, The Gaza and neighboring areas, whether you call them Israel or Palestine. At best someone will have to lose face, at worst it will all be uninhabitable. Many could die, or each side could live in awkward Detente.
One side would have to probably provide a homeland to the other. The other would have to stop its young people from strapping bombs to their chest to meet 72 Virgins in the afterlife. Can either side deliver? MAYBE one side can, but the other... well when in the last 25 years has more than 6 months gone by without a rocket or suicide bomber going off in Israel?
If you can't agree that both sides carry at least some of the blame, than further exchange is pointless.
BTW, truly would appreciate a reference to Ben Gurion Statement- Thanks in advance.
As for Persians having minor, internal issues...well, which country doesn't have such problems. But if you are comparing your young country of 60 years of full-time war with thousands of years of Persian history, then you are not in touch with reality. The same Persian-supported Hezbollah militia defeated the supposedly mighty "dream team" powerful Israeli Army in Lebanon-- Israel lost 70+ tanks, the flagship of its navy, Israeli security services was infiltrated, the Israeli military air traffic control system was destroyed, and the Knesset report on the war mentioned the word DEFEAT more than 100 times. That is all very real and present. If that didn't prove the limits of the militant nature of Israel, then you weren't paying attention.
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I haven't spent years cultivating the myth of Israel as a military superpower. In fact I find it's all plainly absurd. This is a tiny country of a few million people that can be crossed in a few hours in each direction. So I assume that you wrote this part of your comment to yourself and your friends.
Nevertheless I should say that though the performance of the IDF during the last war was lamentable, the word defeat has nothing to do with this. The army failed to detect and destroy all missile launchers but from the beginning the understanding was that it might happen to be an impossible task. What's important is that Israel made its point and the Lebanese got it. There was no cross border raids since then and the issue of Hezbollah weapons has become an internal Lebanese issue as could be seen very clearly during the last events in Beirut.
Your complaints are completely misplaced. As I read your comments below, you say your are ex-USSR now in Israel.
In a functioning democracy, a large number of political parties, especially for a population the size of Israel, of which 25-30% are new immigrants from countries of non-democratic politics, it means that there is no social fabric that is properly represented. No cohesive politics. Democratic countries with long democartic traditions (say, USA or UK or Germany...remember Hitler was elected! or those with the same democratic age as Israel such as Japan), the voice of the country is reflected in 2-3 real parties. Having 15 parties in a place like Israel only means that there is no nationality there, just a population. That also means they don't know how to get along amongst themselves, let alone with others in the world.
Don't blame the writer for that!
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X-co
Israeli political system is structured in such a way as to give maximum political representation to every sector of the society. Israelis don't elect one Knesset member per voting district but vote for party lists nationwide. This way even political parties that are supported by as few as 2% of the population have their representation in the Knesset. So the comparison with Japan and Germany you make are misplaced. If anything Israel should be compared to countries like Italy who practice similar proportional representation political systems.
Let alone the fact that Israel has 15 political parties does not mean that Israelis don't have mainstream political parties and are equally split in 15 different groups. Most of the smaller parties are marginal groups represented by 3-4 members (Israeli Knesset has 120 seats) and through most of their history Israeli politics were a two party (Likud vs Labor) system.
As to your claim that Israel does not have nationality but only population it's simply absurd. Actually it's no more absurd than your claim that all true democracies should have only 2-3 political parties but then I've already wasted too many bits and bytes on your comment than it deserves.
Your complaints are completely misplaced. As I read your comments below, you say your are ex-USSR now in Israel.
In a functioning democracy, a large number of political parties, especially for a population the size of Israel, of which 25-30% are new immigrants from countries of non-democratic politics, it means that there is no social fabric that is properly represented. No cohesive politics. Democratic countries with long democartic traditions (say, USA or UK or Germany...remember Hitler was elected! or those with the same democratic age as Israel such as Japan), the voice of the country is reflected in 2-3 real parties. Having 15 parties in a place like Israel only means that there is no nationality there, just a population. That also means they don't know how to get along amongst themselves, let alone with others in the world.
I thin you are very selective with your recollection of history. As the author above has mentioned, Jerusalem has been often occupied and ruled for a few decades and then things changed.
When the Zionists led by Ben Gurion went into Palestine, he said that Palestinians will die and forget about their land and their home. Some 60 years later, he stands corrected as Palestinians, in fact no body, will forget about getting thrown of their land by a bunch of European, and not Middle Eastern, Jews.
The point remains that Israelis are wrong to think they can be the absolute winner. Middle Eastern people have long memories for centuries and they recall history. It is simply impossible for Israel to maintain its current posture, with or without U.S. support. The Oslo deal was signed but then ripped up and set aside by the Israelis. This means that they are not mature enough to stand by their own word and signature in the world. Just about all others in the world see that only too well.
Some peace deal the Palestinians struck... Before an Israeli decision could even be made the Rockets and Suicide Bombs went off. How do you negotiate peace when the people you are negotiating with Violate the proposal before the ink is dry?
Why do we assume that any othe countries in this region, or any for that matter on earth, have earned respect. House terrorists, and I should respect you? Sell weapons to terrorists? Ritual killings permitted solely to ease moral disgrace? What respect do these acts deserve?
The point is that even-handed nuetral evaluation is not occurring. Somehow some People don't seem to accept that Israel is not the center of all evil in the Middle East. It just provides a convenient target for hatred. Some because of Religion, some because of isolationist desires, some because of misinformation. Criticism is appropriate, but the need for even-handed context, which is difficult, is largely ignored.
How would you react to suddend missle attacks and terrorist bombings in your mall? With offers to provide food, shelter and shared government with your attackers? Be real, few would...
Sounds like you, as an Israeli, are just itching for a fight. So, I guess the writer is right about the militant nature of you Israelis.
I, for one, don't want any of my tax dollars to support Israel as we can spend it on our own country. There has been nothing gained by us Americans in return. So, if you take away American support from Israel, it will be a tough scenario as a going concern. Hallucination, perhaps. Viable and a success story, Israel is not.
Israelis must show that they are adults and can behave like adults in the world. If Israelis are genuine about peace, the Israelis alone must show it, prove it with actions, not just words.
As for Persians having minor, internal issues...well, which country doesn't have such problems. But if you are comparing your young country of 60 years of full-time war with thousands of years of Persian history, then you are not in touch with reality. The same Persian-supported Hezbollah militia defeated the supposedly mighty "dream team" powerful Israeli Army in Lebanon-- Israel lost 70+ tanks, the flagship of its navy, Israeli security services was infiltrated, the Israeli military air traffic control system was destroyed, and the Knesset report on the war mentioned the word DEFEAT more than 100 times. That is all very real and present. If that didn't prove the limits of the militant nature of Israel, then you weren't paying attention.
It is simply amazing that readers turn to attack the writer and his country instead of answering to the points in debate. It shows the shallowness of the minds of the readers that read this AND it proves the point raised by the article, the fact that Israel considers itself to be beyond any point of reason or inspection by the international commmunity. """
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The points of the debate raised by the author are nonsense let alone that they apply much more to the author's own country than to Israel. Ettefagh attempts to portray Israel as a failing nation-state are simply ridiculous. Israel GDP per capita is $28,000 and it's a hi-tech superpower. Iran's GDP per capita is just a fraction of Israel with large sections of the population living in an abject poverty. Hundreds of thousands of Iranians are leaving their country while Israel is busy erecting fences to block the steady influx of migrants from all over the region.
Ettefagh then try to cast doubt on Israel's viability because of its presumed diversity. This is an absolute nonsense. Israel is probably the only real state in a region in which it's the only democracy while in some countries two or three civil wars go on at the same time. The same Iran is fighting three insurgencies at once: against the Kurds in its part of Kurdistan, against its Arab minority in Ahwaz and against Sunni Baluchis in Baluchistan.
When the author is wondering bout what Israel is doing with its 15 parties, one really feels like slapping him in the face. In this region many people would die to get just one functional political party, let alone to be allowed to vote for it.
The thing is that Israel is probably one of the few if not the only success story of the Middle East, a mini state that created a modern society which is aiming to get at the top ten most developed nations of the world in the next decade. At the same time the same Iran is projected to become a net importer of oil because of chronic underinvestment in its oil fields (one of the biggest in the Middle East). Wanna guess where has all the oil money gone?
There is no doubt that this region is packed with failed states many of which will eventually succumb to ethnic conflicts and economic crises and disintegrate. From the same Iran to Iraq to Syria to Lebanon to Sudan, the list is endless. Yet Israel is not part of it.
@ ENLIGHTENMENT
Arabs, the Palestinians in particular, did in fact negotiate a peace deal. It was Israel that walked away. The article above points to a real fact: if in fact Israel was not tilting towards the militants, how come the next government after Rabin didn't follow the peace deal that Rabin made?
As for Israel, well....yes, it can have a place on this planet among other countries in the world, but it has not behaved rationally to earn such place. They cannot continue to breach international law and get away with it. Since it is the newest "country" in the region, it is up to Israel to earn the trust of the others. Bombing the region into submission is the most stupid way of getting short-term "respect".
Why is Israel a crucible of bloodshed? Its enemies call for its destruction, that it "should be wiped off the map" and follow through on their statements by lobbing rockets into its civilian areas, terrorist bomb its commercial markets and mass military on its borders.
If the Palestinians and their Arab "brothers" sought to negotiate instead of attempt to intimidate, they could at least achieve an awkward peace.
Jordan does. Egypt does. When was the last Israeli incursion into these nations who have chosen awkward detante in place of affirmative aggression.
There is a strong strain of anti-Israel posters. This writer seems to forget that there are no perfect nations. Israel fails to treat all of its citizens equally. Not particularly more so than any other nation on earth. What is the plight of the Persian Jew under the Islamic "Republics" of the Middle East? What is the plight of the Algerian Emigrees in France, The African Emigrees (brought forcefully) in the US? To point out that Israel is imperfect is obvious, but let he whose country is without sin cast the first stone...
Israle's minorities are better off economically than most of the "middle class" accross the rest of the planet.
Israel is worthy of criticism for its failures. Some of those failures related directly to being backed into a corner by neighbors who are constantly threatening its security. Any nation backed into a corner will react, and not always in the most appropriate manner. Is the treatment of Muslim Palestinians proper? Probably not. Is that reason to say Israel should be dissolved, probably not.
Comments from Posters below ANDREW and SARI are very revealing. They both think that the writer speaks for Iran and or Iran and its citizens are one and the same. It is also entertaining to see that the advertising about Israel has worked-- grow up!
There are poor and rich people everywhere. Even in, say, America that is a rich country and very powerful--as we saw in New Orleans.
Second: other posters right. If Israel wants to be part of the international community, it must adhere to internatinal laws and norms. It cannot sign up to the UN charter and other conventions then do its own thing.
Third: If Israel is so great and wonderful, how come it cannot get the vote of the majority in the UN General Assembly? It is about votes and democracy afterall.
Interesting and true observations. Good insight on internal workings of Israel behind the veil of false advertising in the media, especially American media.
It is normal to ask questions about other countries. For the last 60 years, Israel has been using the excuse of World War Two to create problems in the Middle East. That is now an old excuse.
Readers must think with an open mind: why 6 million Israelis (in a world of 6.3 billion people) cannot be questioned or held responsible in accordance to international laws and norms.
Agreed, many valid points here. If Israel wants to be considered as a member of the international community, it must behave with responsiblity and as an adult.
This story of "being the chosen" is absurd in the 21st century.
to SARI
Seems like you have no clue about history.
Iran and all other countries listed by you are not religious nation-states, as the article reads. They were not fabricated by stupid arguments.
In fact it was the Iranian (Persian) king Cyrus that LIBERATED Jews from SLAVERY. That means Jews never had their own country and were not ruling their own society. And if you read the article correctly, you will notice that the writer is talking about Israel's ways and methods, not about its statehood. The last paragraph talks about REFORMS.
But again, I am presuming that you truly understand what you read......that is a bad presumption, I think.
It is simply amazing that readers turn to attack the writer and his country instead of answering to the points in debate. It shows the shallowness of the minds of the readers that read this AND it proves the point raised by the article, the fact that Israel considers itself to be beyond any point of reason or inspection by the international commmunity.
The topic and the question is about Israel, not about the writer or his country. It is not hate speech and trying to cover up the realities of the biggest problem in the Middle East with slandering the writer will not address the problem. For one, I don't want my taxes to support Israel.
An observer might wonder about the inner workings of the Israeli state and question whether it is a sustainable notion or a merely a self-defeating belief of a failing nation-state. After all, it is a small territory with the population of, say, London, with more than fifteen political parties and no less than seven different interpretations of Judaism and religious practice sects, where about a third of children live in poverty and a quarter are first-generation immigrants who do not speak Hebrew.
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The thing is that by Israeli standards 99% of the the population in Iran lives below the poverty line. In fact poverty statistics in Israel reflect inequality rather than absolute poverty since the poverty line is established relative to a certain national average.
It may be true that 1/4 of Israelis are first generation immigrants but this does not mean that they don't speak Hebrew. Some of the first generation immigrants can hardly speak their original language after having spent 30-40 years in Israel.
Finally as one who lived through the collapse of the Soviet Union I am rather unsure about the future of Iran itself after the regime of Ayatollahs go. A regime change is loaded with many dangers for multinational states and the Persians are now barely 50% of the population in Iran. Three uprisings are raging in Kurdistan, Baluchistan and Ahwaz. Iran's major minority, the Azeris, can now watch an independent Azeri state experiencing its own oil boom right across the border. The future looks rather bright for your country, Ali Ettefagh.
Why does the Washington Post insist on becoming a forum for anti-Israel hate speech. First Gandhi's grandson and now this Iranian schmuck?
Newsflash Mr. Ali. Israel is not simply supported by a militant Jewish minority. Israel is the Jewish HOLY land. Jerusalem is as holy to Jews as Mecca is to Muslims. Israel is also our safe haven from intolerant people like you.
Israel has not been a light unto the nations, as it should have been and should be. Yes, there needs to be a two state solution so the Palestinians too can have a homeland. The occupation MUST end. However, just about every nation in the world accepts Israel's right to exist. It's only Iran that seeks to go back to an era where Israel had no right to exist.
Why is it that Muslims can have Islamic states in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Oman, Qatar, Sudan, Kuwait, and Bahrain, BUT one Jewish nation is not allowed to exist in the one logical place in the world for it to be. The Jewish holy land of Israel.
Jewish holy sites are also sacred to Muslims because Muslims hold Jewish prophets as holy. That does not make those holy sites any less Jewish. I would say that so long as Muslims have the right to pray at those sites (and they've often built mosques on them, so they obviously do), there should be no problem.
Israel should endeavor to be a Jewish state where Christians and Muslims can live without discrimination and as equal citizens. This is the goal we should all strive for.
In conclusion, I'm going to give you advice that you can use on any person's (or any country's) birthday: Congratulate them, be civil, keep your complaints tucked away for another day, and if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.
Honestly, once in a while I hope for a reasonable and rational opinion, and I usually do from Anwer Sher and Yossi Melman (although Yossi maybe went too nationalist on this posting), but this is outright hate speech. Moving besides the hypocrisy of talking about a weak government from a man whose government regularly bans politicians from elections, where is the look in the mirror? Many Arab states are as guilty as Israel. Palestinians make up a large majority of Jordan, yet the call for equality there is non-existent. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and many others regularly torture political dissidents, and punishments there are far extreme.
I have no problem with criticism of Israel, Lord knows its needed with some of the things they do, but you didn't manage to find one nice thing to say, which I guess should not surprise me. Israeli Arabs suffer discrimination and hate, yet they also manage to speak freely and have the highest median income of any Arab peoples, not to mention that they at least have ways of trying to fight discrimination through the liberal court system. Or what about the act that Israel is one of few countries with a thriving economy that doesn't involve oil?
Israel's occupation of the West Bank is, in my opinion, flat-out wrong and unjust, but you couldn't manage to say one nice-thing about it on its Birthday, could you. It's more of the extremely simplistic and somewhat Anti-Semitic answer: "blame Israel for everything, give credit for nothing". If I did nothing but rip on China and the Chinese and never said or believed anything good, then I would be considered racist, yet this does not play the other way around for some reason.
In conclusion, I'm going to give you advice that you can use on any person's (or any country's): Congratulate them, be civil, keep your complaints for another day, and if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.
What sort of credential does one need to be allowed space here to write ignorant, uninformed, hate filled propaganda not worth spit, and have it posted next to a color picture of yourself and an advertisement for your global investment corporation? I mean Mr. Ettefagh has written nothing more than the common pan Arabist/Islamist screed available anywhere on the Web. What do the readers of the online Washington Post gain by having it posted here?
P.S. I do not have any financial interests in any global finance company, or a desire to see any of the current intolerant, religiously homogeneous, and authoritarian Islamic Arab states destroyed and replaced with anything else.
PostGlobal is an interactive conversation on global issues moderated by Newsweek International Editor Fareed Zakaria and David Ignatius of The Washington Post. It is produced jointly by Newsweek and washingtonpost.com, as is On Faith, a conversation on religion. Please send your comments, questions and suggestions for PostGlobal to Lauren Keane, its editor and producer.
All Comments (22)
@TT
My memory is shorter than thousands of years but memory seems to indicate Romans were there more than 60 years...
Ben Gurion quote is an interesting one, would like to review if you can point me to a nuetral or at least semi-nuetral source.
What you fail to respond to is how do you negotiate with someone who breaches an accord before you can even bring it to a legislature for affirmation? Who should be bound to peace whn their opposition claims to negotiate peace but follows up with immediate terrorist attacks? Surely you can recognize that point. Would you blame the USSR of the 1940s for violating the nonagression pact with the Germans when the Germans attacked?
Also missed was the question of why Israel deserves less respect than other Middle East nations in light of the very issues set out in my prior post?
Should continued settlements be forced on disputed territory by the Israeli government? No, that is worthy of criticism as only exacerbating the conflict. That's legitimate. But to blame solely the Israelis for not maintaining peace, is to either ignore reality or truly relagate oneself the real of apologist.
You are correct, there will be no absolute winner in the resolution of the Conflict over the Negev, Gallilee, Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, The Gaza and neighboring areas, whether you call them Israel or Palestine. At best someone will have to lose face, at worst it will all be uninhabitable. Many could die, or each side could live in awkward Detente.
One side would have to probably provide a homeland to the other. The other would have to stop its young people from strapping bombs to their chest to meet 72 Virgins in the afterlife. Can either side deliver? MAYBE one side can, but the other... well when in the last 25 years has more than 6 months gone by without a rocket or suicide bomber going off in Israel?
If you can't agree that both sides carry at least some of the blame, than further exchange is pointless.
BTW, truly would appreciate a reference to Ben Gurion Statement- Thanks in advance.
May 16, 2008 2:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 16, 2008 14:48
Big Bob (USA):
Hey NOBODY,
. . .
As for Persians having minor, internal issues...well, which country doesn't have such problems. But if you are comparing your young country of 60 years of full-time war with thousands of years of Persian history, then you are not in touch with reality. The same Persian-supported Hezbollah militia defeated the supposedly mighty "dream team" powerful Israeli Army in Lebanon-- Israel lost 70+ tanks, the flagship of its navy, Israeli security services was infiltrated, the Israeli military air traffic control system was destroyed, and the Knesset report on the war mentioned the word DEFEAT more than 100 times. That is all very real and present. If that didn't prove the limits of the militant nature of Israel, then you weren't paying attention.
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I haven't spent years cultivating the myth of Israel as a military superpower. In fact I find it's all plainly absurd. This is a tiny country of a few million people that can be crossed in a few hours in each direction. So I assume that you wrote this part of your comment to yourself and your friends.
Nevertheless I should say that though the performance of the IDF during the last war was lamentable, the word defeat has nothing to do with this. The army failed to detect and destroy all missile launchers but from the beginning the understanding was that it might happen to be an impossible task. What's important is that Israel made its point and the Lebanese got it. There was no cross border raids since then and the issue of Hezbollah weapons has become an internal Lebanese issue as could be seen very clearly during the last events in Beirut.
May 16, 2008 11:00 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 16, 2008 11:00
X-co:
to NOBODY
Your complaints are completely misplaced. As I read your comments below, you say your are ex-USSR now in Israel.
In a functioning democracy, a large number of political parties, especially for a population the size of Israel, of which 25-30% are new immigrants from countries of non-democratic politics, it means that there is no social fabric that is properly represented. No cohesive politics. Democratic countries with long democartic traditions (say, USA or UK or Germany...remember Hitler was elected! or those with the same democratic age as Israel such as Japan), the voice of the country is reflected in 2-3 real parties. Having 15 parties in a place like Israel only means that there is no nationality there, just a population. That also means they don't know how to get along amongst themselves, let alone with others in the world.
Don't blame the writer for that!
***************************
X-co
Israeli political system is structured in such a way as to give maximum political representation to every sector of the society. Israelis don't elect one Knesset member per voting district but vote for party lists nationwide. This way even political parties that are supported by as few as 2% of the population have their representation in the Knesset. So the comparison with Japan and Germany you make are misplaced. If anything Israel should be compared to countries like Italy who practice similar proportional representation political systems.
Let alone the fact that Israel has 15 political parties does not mean that Israelis don't have mainstream political parties and are equally split in 15 different groups. Most of the smaller parties are marginal groups represented by 3-4 members (Israeli Knesset has 120 seats) and through most of their history Israeli politics were a two party (Likud vs Labor) system.
As to your claim that Israel does not have nationality but only population it's simply absurd. Actually it's no more absurd than your claim that all true democracies should have only 2-3 political parties but then I've already wasted too many bits and bytes on your comment than it deserves.
May 16, 2008 10:41 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 16, 2008 10:41
to NOBODY
Your complaints are completely misplaced. As I read your comments below, you say your are ex-USSR now in Israel.
In a functioning democracy, a large number of political parties, especially for a population the size of Israel, of which 25-30% are new immigrants from countries of non-democratic politics, it means that there is no social fabric that is properly represented. No cohesive politics. Democratic countries with long democartic traditions (say, USA or UK or Germany...remember Hitler was elected! or those with the same democratic age as Israel such as Japan), the voice of the country is reflected in 2-3 real parties. Having 15 parties in a place like Israel only means that there is no nationality there, just a population. That also means they don't know how to get along amongst themselves, let alone with others in the world.
Don't blame the writer for that!
May 16, 2008 9:47 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 16, 2008 09:47
@ENLIGHTENMENT
I thin you are very selective with your recollection of history. As the author above has mentioned, Jerusalem has been often occupied and ruled for a few decades and then things changed.
When the Zionists led by Ben Gurion went into Palestine, he said that Palestinians will die and forget about their land and their home. Some 60 years later, he stands corrected as Palestinians, in fact no body, will forget about getting thrown of their land by a bunch of European, and not Middle Eastern, Jews.
The point remains that Israelis are wrong to think they can be the absolute winner. Middle Eastern people have long memories for centuries and they recall history. It is simply impossible for Israel to maintain its current posture, with or without U.S. support. The Oslo deal was signed but then ripped up and set aside by the Israelis. This means that they are not mature enough to stand by their own word and signature in the world. Just about all others in the world see that only too well.
May 16, 2008 8:40 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 16, 2008 08:40
@TT
Some peace deal the Palestinians struck... Before an Israeli decision could even be made the Rockets and Suicide Bombs went off. How do you negotiate peace when the people you are negotiating with Violate the proposal before the ink is dry?
Why do we assume that any othe countries in this region, or any for that matter on earth, have earned respect. House terrorists, and I should respect you? Sell weapons to terrorists? Ritual killings permitted solely to ease moral disgrace? What respect do these acts deserve?
The point is that even-handed nuetral evaluation is not occurring. Somehow some People don't seem to accept that Israel is not the center of all evil in the Middle East. It just provides a convenient target for hatred. Some because of Religion, some because of isolationist desires, some because of misinformation. Criticism is appropriate, but the need for even-handed context, which is difficult, is largely ignored.
How would you react to suddend missle attacks and terrorist bombings in your mall? With offers to provide food, shelter and shared government with your attackers? Be real, few would...
May 16, 2008 8:18 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 16, 2008 08:18
Hey NOBODY,
Sounds like you, as an Israeli, are just itching for a fight. So, I guess the writer is right about the militant nature of you Israelis.
I, for one, don't want any of my tax dollars to support Israel as we can spend it on our own country. There has been nothing gained by us Americans in return. So, if you take away American support from Israel, it will be a tough scenario as a going concern. Hallucination, perhaps. Viable and a success story, Israel is not.
Israelis must show that they are adults and can behave like adults in the world. If Israelis are genuine about peace, the Israelis alone must show it, prove it with actions, not just words.
As for Persians having minor, internal issues...well, which country doesn't have such problems. But if you are comparing your young country of 60 years of full-time war with thousands of years of Persian history, then you are not in touch with reality. The same Persian-supported Hezbollah militia defeated the supposedly mighty "dream team" powerful Israeli Army in Lebanon-- Israel lost 70+ tanks, the flagship of its navy, Israeli security services was infiltrated, the Israeli military air traffic control system was destroyed, and the Knesset report on the war mentioned the word DEFEAT more than 100 times. That is all very real and present. If that didn't prove the limits of the militant nature of Israel, then you weren't paying attention.
May 16, 2008 6:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 16, 2008 06:55
"""Big Bob (USA):
It is simply amazing that readers turn to attack the writer and his country instead of answering to the points in debate. It shows the shallowness of the minds of the readers that read this AND it proves the point raised by the article, the fact that Israel considers itself to be beyond any point of reason or inspection by the international commmunity. """
***********************************
The points of the debate raised by the author are nonsense let alone that they apply much more to the author's own country than to Israel. Ettefagh attempts to portray Israel as a failing nation-state are simply ridiculous. Israel GDP per capita is $28,000 and it's a hi-tech superpower. Iran's GDP per capita is just a fraction of Israel with large sections of the population living in an abject poverty. Hundreds of thousands of Iranians are leaving their country while Israel is busy erecting fences to block the steady influx of migrants from all over the region.
Ettefagh then try to cast doubt on Israel's viability because of its presumed diversity. This is an absolute nonsense. Israel is probably the only real state in a region in which it's the only democracy while in some countries two or three civil wars go on at the same time. The same Iran is fighting three insurgencies at once: against the Kurds in its part of Kurdistan, against its Arab minority in Ahwaz and against Sunni Baluchis in Baluchistan.
When the author is wondering bout what Israel is doing with its 15 parties, one really feels like slapping him in the face. In this region many people would die to get just one functional political party, let alone to be allowed to vote for it.
The thing is that Israel is probably one of the few if not the only success story of the Middle East, a mini state that created a modern society which is aiming to get at the top ten most developed nations of the world in the next decade. At the same time the same Iran is projected to become a net importer of oil because of chronic underinvestment in its oil fields (one of the biggest in the Middle East). Wanna guess where has all the oil money gone?
There is no doubt that this region is packed with failed states many of which will eventually succumb to ethnic conflicts and economic crises and disintegrate. From the same Iran to Iraq to Syria to Lebanon to Sudan, the list is endless. Yet Israel is not part of it.
May 15, 2008 2:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 15, 2008 14:39
@ ENLIGHTENMENT
Arabs, the Palestinians in particular, did in fact negotiate a peace deal. It was Israel that walked away. The article above points to a real fact: if in fact Israel was not tilting towards the militants, how come the next government after Rabin didn't follow the peace deal that Rabin made?
As for Israel, well....yes, it can have a place on this planet among other countries in the world, but it has not behaved rationally to earn such place. They cannot continue to breach international law and get away with it. Since it is the newest "country" in the region, it is up to Israel to earn the trust of the others. Bombing the region into submission is the most stupid way of getting short-term "respect".
May 15, 2008 10:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 15, 2008 10:23
Why is Israel a crucible of bloodshed? Its enemies call for its destruction, that it "should be wiped off the map" and follow through on their statements by lobbing rockets into its civilian areas, terrorist bomb its commercial markets and mass military on its borders.
If the Palestinians and their Arab "brothers" sought to negotiate instead of attempt to intimidate, they could at least achieve an awkward peace.
Jordan does. Egypt does. When was the last Israeli incursion into these nations who have chosen awkward detante in place of affirmative aggression.
May 15, 2008 9:26 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 15, 2008 09:26
There is a strong strain of anti-Israel posters. This writer seems to forget that there are no perfect nations. Israel fails to treat all of its citizens equally. Not particularly more so than any other nation on earth. What is the plight of the Persian Jew under the Islamic "Republics" of the Middle East? What is the plight of the Algerian Emigrees in France, The African Emigrees (brought forcefully) in the US? To point out that Israel is imperfect is obvious, but let he whose country is without sin cast the first stone...
Israle's minorities are better off economically than most of the "middle class" accross the rest of the planet.
Israel is worthy of criticism for its failures. Some of those failures related directly to being backed into a corner by neighbors who are constantly threatening its security. Any nation backed into a corner will react, and not always in the most appropriate manner. Is the treatment of Muslim Palestinians proper? Probably not. Is that reason to say Israel should be dissolved, probably not.
May 15, 2008 9:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 15, 2008 09:15
Comments from Posters below ANDREW and SARI are very revealing. They both think that the writer speaks for Iran and or Iran and its citizens are one and the same. It is also entertaining to see that the advertising about Israel has worked-- grow up!
There are poor and rich people everywhere. Even in, say, America that is a rich country and very powerful--as we saw in New Orleans.
Second: other posters right. If Israel wants to be part of the international community, it must adhere to internatinal laws and norms. It cannot sign up to the UN charter and other conventions then do its own thing.
Third: If Israel is so great and wonderful, how come it cannot get the vote of the majority in the UN General Assembly? It is about votes and democracy afterall.
May 15, 2008 3:56 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 15, 2008 03:56
Interesting and true observations. Good insight on internal workings of Israel behind the veil of false advertising in the media, especially American media.
It is normal to ask questions about other countries. For the last 60 years, Israel has been using the excuse of World War Two to create problems in the Middle East. That is now an old excuse.
Readers must think with an open mind: why 6 million Israelis (in a world of 6.3 billion people) cannot be questioned or held responsible in accordance to international laws and norms.
May 15, 2008 2:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 15, 2008 02:59
Agreed, many valid points here. If Israel wants to be considered as a member of the international community, it must behave with responsiblity and as an adult.
This story of "being the chosen" is absurd in the 21st century.
to SARI
Seems like you have no clue about history.
Iran and all other countries listed by you are not religious nation-states, as the article reads. They were not fabricated by stupid arguments.
In fact it was the Iranian (Persian) king Cyrus that LIBERATED Jews from SLAVERY. That means Jews never had their own country and were not ruling their own society. And if you read the article correctly, you will notice that the writer is talking about Israel's ways and methods, not about its statehood. The last paragraph talks about REFORMS.
But again, I am presuming that you truly understand what you read......that is a bad presumption, I think.
May 15, 2008 2:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 15, 2008 02:37
It is simply amazing that readers turn to attack the writer and his country instead of answering to the points in debate. It shows the shallowness of the minds of the readers that read this AND it proves the point raised by the article, the fact that Israel considers itself to be beyond any point of reason or inspection by the international commmunity.
The topic and the question is about Israel, not about the writer or his country. It is not hate speech and trying to cover up the realities of the biggest problem in the Middle East with slandering the writer will not address the problem. For one, I don't want my taxes to support Israel.
May 15, 2008 2:24 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 15, 2008 02:24
An observer might wonder about the inner workings of the Israeli state and question whether it is a sustainable notion or a merely a self-defeating belief of a failing nation-state. After all, it is a small territory with the population of, say, London, with more than fifteen political parties and no less than seven different interpretations of Judaism and religious practice sects, where about a third of children live in poverty and a quarter are first-generation immigrants who do not speak Hebrew.
*************************
The thing is that by Israeli standards 99% of the the population in Iran lives below the poverty line. In fact poverty statistics in Israel reflect inequality rather than absolute poverty since the poverty line is established relative to a certain national average.
It may be true that 1/4 of Israelis are first generation immigrants but this does not mean that they don't speak Hebrew. Some of the first generation immigrants can hardly speak their original language after having spent 30-40 years in Israel.
Finally as one who lived through the collapse of the Soviet Union I am rather unsure about the future of Iran itself after the regime of Ayatollahs go. A regime change is loaded with many dangers for multinational states and the Persians are now barely 50% of the population in Iran. Three uprisings are raging in Kurdistan, Baluchistan and Ahwaz. Iran's major minority, the Azeris, can now watch an independent Azeri state experiencing its own oil boom right across the border. The future looks rather bright for your country, Ali Ettefagh.
May 14, 2008 6:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 14, 2008 18:05
Why does the Washington Post insist on becoming a forum for anti-Israel hate speech. First Gandhi's grandson and now this Iranian schmuck?
Newsflash Mr. Ali. Israel is not simply supported by a militant Jewish minority. Israel is the Jewish HOLY land. Jerusalem is as holy to Jews as Mecca is to Muslims. Israel is also our safe haven from intolerant people like you.
Israel has not been a light unto the nations, as it should have been and should be. Yes, there needs to be a two state solution so the Palestinians too can have a homeland. The occupation MUST end. However, just about every nation in the world accepts Israel's right to exist. It's only Iran that seeks to go back to an era where Israel had no right to exist.
Why is it that Muslims can have Islamic states in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Oman, Qatar, Sudan, Kuwait, and Bahrain, BUT one Jewish nation is not allowed to exist in the one logical place in the world for it to be. The Jewish holy land of Israel.
Jewish holy sites are also sacred to Muslims because Muslims hold Jewish prophets as holy. That does not make those holy sites any less Jewish. I would say that so long as Muslims have the right to pray at those sites (and they've often built mosques on them, so they obviously do), there should be no problem.
Israel should endeavor to be a Jewish state where Christians and Muslims can live without discrimination and as equal citizens. This is the goal we should all strive for.
May 14, 2008 2:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 14, 2008 14:50
Correction on Last Paragraph:
In conclusion, I'm going to give you advice that you can use on any person's (or any country's) birthday: Congratulate them, be civil, keep your complaints tucked away for another day, and if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.
May 14, 2008 12:54 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 14, 2008 12:54
Honestly, once in a while I hope for a reasonable and rational opinion, and I usually do from Anwer Sher and Yossi Melman (although Yossi maybe went too nationalist on this posting), but this is outright hate speech. Moving besides the hypocrisy of talking about a weak government from a man whose government regularly bans politicians from elections, where is the look in the mirror? Many Arab states are as guilty as Israel. Palestinians make up a large majority of Jordan, yet the call for equality there is non-existent. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and many others regularly torture political dissidents, and punishments there are far extreme.
I have no problem with criticism of Israel, Lord knows its needed with some of the things they do, but you didn't manage to find one nice thing to say, which I guess should not surprise me. Israeli Arabs suffer discrimination and hate, yet they also manage to speak freely and have the highest median income of any Arab peoples, not to mention that they at least have ways of trying to fight discrimination through the liberal court system. Or what about the act that Israel is one of few countries with a thriving economy that doesn't involve oil?
Israel's occupation of the West Bank is, in my opinion, flat-out wrong and unjust, but you couldn't manage to say one nice-thing about it on its Birthday, could you. It's more of the extremely simplistic and somewhat Anti-Semitic answer: "blame Israel for everything, give credit for nothing". If I did nothing but rip on China and the Chinese and never said or believed anything good, then I would be considered racist, yet this does not play the other way around for some reason.
In conclusion, I'm going to give you advice that you can use on any person's (or any country's): Congratulate them, be civil, keep your complaints for another day, and if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.
May 14, 2008 12:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 14, 2008 12:49
You have a valid point.
Where is the peace for ordinary Jewish citizens, if that was the original plan?
May 14, 2008 10:04 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 14, 2008 10:04
What sort of credential does one need to be allowed space here to write ignorant, uninformed, hate filled propaganda not worth spit, and have it posted next to a color picture of yourself and an advertisement for your global investment corporation? I mean Mr. Ettefagh has written nothing more than the common pan Arabist/Islamist screed available anywhere on the Web. What do the readers of the online Washington Post gain by having it posted here?
P.S. I do not have any financial interests in any global finance company, or a desire to see any of the current intolerant, religiously homogeneous, and authoritarian Islamic Arab states destroyed and replaced with anything else.
May 14, 2008 9:45 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 14, 2008 09:45
Quite clear and right. The central point of peaceful land for Jews has been set aside and traded for military adventures. That is not sustainable.
May 14, 2008 9:03 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 14, 2008 09:03