hippologist pirate murkily heliotypically apopetalous unwired corybantic loofness
Democrats take on Bush Social Security plan
http://www.partycorner.com

Here's the thing. The Turkish people have been engaged in a vigorous debate about hats for a hundred years now. I suggest we let them continue this important discussion unaccosted by foreign interlopers. And we'll all continue to use their country as the airstrip and pipeline-zone it is. When the Turkish people decide they want to be part of the fast moving world that exists outside their borders and their narrowminded assumptions, they'll have a lot of catching up to do. Meanwhile, hats are at the top of the agenda for the AK as they were for their beloved Ataturk a century ago. Just let them sit in the corner and winge about it. It's easier for all of us that way.

TO AMERICAN OBSERVER--

You must have been absent when logic was allocated. Your comments make that clear.

Who are you to make rules for others? in other countries? And, you seem to have forgotten that since Turkey has a secular government, then presumably Turkish Muslims can convert to another religion.

In hindsight, I think you are the product of cutbacks in education budgets in USA.....when they declared Ketchup as a vegetable.

Ali Ettefagh says:

>>The recent law in Turkey is about having a choice as a citizen.<<

American Observer replies:

One thing is clear: if Moslem women have the right to wear headscarves if they want to wear headscarves, then all Moslem women and Moslem men should also have the right to convert to Christianity if they want to convert to Christianity. In fact, if Moslem women have the right to wear headscarves, then all Moslem women and all Moslem men should have the right to become Jews if they want to become Jews. That would be real freedom. And, if you oppose the right of Moslem women to become Jews if they want to become Jews, you have thrown away your right to complain about any government which stops Moslem women from covering their heads, whether that government is in Turkey or France or anywhere else.

Despite the negatives leveled here, I'd have to say America does a better job of providing freedom of religion to Muslims than just about any country in the world; including Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. After all, in America Muslims are free to wear veils AND free not to wear them. Its up to them, no need to debate, the individual makes his/her own choice, case closed. Perhaps instead of hating America you all should start to learn from America.

GEORGIASON-

You must be joking or/and you are exemplary of what precious little you know about Turkey, Islam, Muslims and even democracy. You are the prime example of targets of propaganda, just like citizens of USSR (or/and North Korea of tday) and what little they knew/know about the outside world.

Turkey as a place for freedom of expression? You must have inhaled it!

Opposition to the Caliphate has been at the core of Britain's Foreign Policy for centuries. Lord Curzon the British Foreign Secretary in 1924 said, "We must put an end to anything which brings about any Islamic unity between the sons of the Muslims. As we have already succeeded in finishing off the Caliphate, so we must ensure that there will never arise again unity for the Muslims, whether it be intellectual or cultural unity."

Enough is enough and we now want Caliphate on following model of democracy and justice:

From:

http://members.tripod.com/~salems2/muslim_social_order.htm

Imam Abu Hanifa was the greatest legal mind of Islam, but he declined to associate himself with the Omayyad and Abbasid Caliphates which had been converted into monarchies and he had to pay a high price for this refusal. Once the Abbasid Caliph Mansur offered him the high post of the Grand Qazi of his vast Empirer The Imam` bluntly. replied: "supposing a complaint is lodged against you in my court and you want that the case should be decided in your favour, otherwise you would throw me in the river. Then please rest assured that I would prefer to be drowned in the river rather than decide against justice". This out spoken curt reply silenced the Caliph for the time being. But on another occasion, Mansur again offered this high post to the Imam. The Imam again refused the job saying that he was not fit for that. The Caliph shouted out, "You are a liar". The Imam replied calmly, "you have verified my contention. A liar is unfit for the host of a Qazi". The Caliph was nonplussed by this logical reply and swore that the Imam would have to accept the post of Grand Qazi. The Imam too swore that he would not. The whole Durbar was stunned by the boldness of Imam.

The Imam was known for his great learning and legal brain throughout the Islamic world. The Caliph privately consulted him on controversial issues and his judgments were highly respected by all. Once there had been some dispute between the Abbasid Caliph Mansur and his wife Hurrsl Khatun. Khatun wanted the matter to be referred to Imam Abu Hanifa. The Imam was summoned by the Caliph and his wife also sat behind the curtain. The Caliph asked the Imam, "How many wives are allowed in Islam at a time"?

"Four", replied the Imam.
Mansur cried out to his wife, "Did you listen what the Imam has said"?

The Imam added at once, "But there is one condition. a man is permitted to marry more than one wife, provided he is capable of imparting justice and granting equal rights to all of his wives".

The last part of the Imam's reply went against the interests of the Caliph. On reaching home, in the evening, he found a man waiting for him with a bag of guineas and a letter of thanks from the wife of the Caliph. The Imam returned the money with a word that it was his duty to speak the truth without having any consideration for fear or favour.
Qazi Abu Yusuf,a pupil of Imam Abu Hanifa was appointed the Grand Qazi of the Abbasid Empire during the reign of the celebrated Harun-ar-Rashid. On several occasions he delivered judgments against the interests of Empress Zubaida, the favourite wife Of the Caliph, without caring for the consequences.

Such was the high standard of justice maintained during the period of early Islam, which has hardly any parallel in the long history of jurisprudence.

Let me give my brief assessment of what's going on in Turkey, which admittedly may only skim the surface of the issues.

After WWI ended the Ottoman Empire and took the Caliphate with it, Kamal Attaturk established Turkey as a secular nation. As a result of that basic decision, Turkey finally emerged in recent years as a full-blown democracy. No country is perfect, but overall, Turks enjoy the blessings of liberty and civil rights such as freedom of expression. They also enjoy the prosperity that goes along with democracy and free enterprise.

But Turkey's population is predominantly Muslim. And Islam in regard to democracy and personal freedoms is like a big black hole: it sucks up everything within its reach and imprisons it in the vortex, never to be seen or heard from again. Islam is never content to accept democracy and freedom. Islam sees such things as alien to its very soul. Islam sees itself as at war with democracy, and for Islam, it's a sum-zero game. There must be a winner and a loser. The black hole at the heart of Islam must suck up and imprison every aspect of modernity and democracy.

What we are witnessing in Turkey is the inevitable expansion of that black hole. Even after 90 years of secularism, modernity and democracy are too weak to escape its grasp.

The Turkish people are now doing something that we Westerners find inexplicable. They are voluntarily surrendering their freedoms and their democracy. They are, in increasing numbers, showing their willingness to sacrifice their rights on the altar of Islam. The Turks, with eyes wide open, are re-establishing a 7th century theocracy to rule over them. The religious mentality once more triumphs over secularism and rationality.

Outsiders, in the end, will be unable to do much to reverse this trend. The main lesson we Americans should draw from the Turkish experience, especially when it is combined with the experience of West European governments with their Muslim populations, is the danger of allowing a too great an expansion of the Muslim population in the United States. We are creating a big black hole, which will eventually begin devouring everything in its path.

Headscarve issue was solved.

Now we need to solve the real issue which is Caliphate which was abolished by Ataturk.

Without Caliphate Muslim prayer is no granted and as such we must solve this problem as soon we can.

Dr. ETTEFAGH
Yes indeed, another a la Turka episode as you have spelled out. It is very difficult to get all information about Turkey from the outside (and I say this as a German-American and a veteran visitor, former resident in Turkey!)

As a suggestion, please tone down your articles and use smaller, easy to understand, words. Your readers are having a hard time understanding your views and plain things like choice, democracy, pluralism, and debate. It has not gotten thru the thick shield (and heads) of obviously prejudiced readers that have commented above with anti-Iranian comments instead of debating about the facts.
But again, I also believe that America is becoming another Turkey and its hard military, state over people society, where people want to shout, not discuss.

It is amusing to see the wholly uninformed and unrelated comments posted by readers that are clueless about the region, Iran, Turkey and just about everywhere else. Especially when the article has pointed out the law and freedom of choice in Turkey and local customs and cultures?

It proves the point of the writer that outsiders should stay away and keep quiet.....
or does it strip naked their projection of anti-Iranian hate on the anniversary of the Iranian Revolution yesterday, 11 February, ....when USA was thrown out of Iran back in 1979....LOL...LOL...LOL!!!!
Inquiring minds want to know!

MIKE-

Closed minds are empty minds. People like you MUST be reminded that not everything in the world is a matter for America to decide or pass an opinion on. Especially as Yanks want to spin this "progressive Muslim Turkey" as an example in the Middle East.

So, when you can locate your own country on a world map, then you can attack people that are providing information about the rest of the world.

Truly, this isn't a burning issue in the U.S. because unlike the Mid-East we have toleration of religions. Most Americans would say "who cares" about the veil. Unlike in Iran, of course, our government doesn't punish women for what they wear or don't wear. The source of Mr. Ettefagh's paranoia toward America must be rooted in guilt for some of this Iranian lack of toleration and the use of the covering of women to "keep them in their place".

One observation that I will make is that there is a lot of wailing over "our girls" in Turkey being kept from an education because they couldn't wear their veil by the wife of President Gul but virtually no effort to encourage the same females to rise to someone above the limitations of the veil. Clearly, the Turkish leaders today are not Ataturk who aggressively attacked the inequality of Turkish women against an ignorant self-serving religious structure long left in the dust by history.

As an American, the veil doesn't offend me in the least. The ignorant belief that a head covering is more important than an education does.

I'm not sure why Americans should not have opinions on this topic.

We are a free country, and we'll have opinions on any topic we choose!

I, for one, disagree with women who choose to wear headscarves, or wigs, or whatever, in order to cover their hair. The basis for wearing a covering is to be modest and not excite the opposite sex. I find it ridiculous and it's my right.

I disagree with men and women who choose not to do business with the opposite sex because their religion dictates it.

I also disagree with dietary customs of Halal and Kosher.

But, I don't care if someone else practices any of these things, as long as they are not FORCING anyone to participate or not participate. And, as long as their practice of it does not prevent someone else from exercising their right to do business, go to school, live freely.

Freedom of choice is the key. If you feel liberated wearing a burqua, by all means, wear one, but do not expect to be allowed to have your driver's license photo in one in the US.

Frankly, you could count the number of Americans who care about this issue on one hand. Ettefagh just cant write a column without taking a shot at America.

Personally, I would love it if Ettefagh and the rest of his America-hating ilk would stay out of our debates. Unfortunately, the Post wouldn't he anything left to print if it got rid of all of its mypoic and petty America haters.

What is referred to as the debate about homosexuals in America is in essence a debate about the institution of marriage. Legality of homosexuality in America is not in question. Debate about prayer in schools is a constitutional debate about the separation of church and state. People are free to pray or not to pray as a personal choice. The debate over teaching the creationist point of view in addition to the evolution theory is also mostly a constitutional matter. It is not illegal to belong to either of the 2 camps. Turkish debate is in effect about forcing a woman to wear or not to wear a piece of clothing against her will. Equating the Turkish debate with the other mentioned debates is an oversimplification that strips it of its human rights implications.

Taymoor,

If headscarf is the symbol of Democracy,the most democratical countries would be islamofacsist Iran,Taleban's Afghanistan and Saudi Fear Kingdom.

If Ataturk was a God,how islamic rooted A.Gul became the president of Turkey and how Turkey is being governed by islamist party.

Moral degeneration.In Iran,nine year-old child girls are permitted to be taken(married) by the old men.Is this Morality ?

Economy,
Turkey GDP(nominal) 400 billion USD.
Iran GDP(nomianl) 250 billion USD.Most of GDP comes from oil revenue,if you dont count oil revenue,Iran would be one of the poorist countries.

Moral is Democracy and Human Rights.
Moral is NOT rape to child girl.
The Civilization was Persopolis,not present Fear State of Iran.

NO!! The headscarve issue symbolizes the failure of a stupid illusion under whcih Turks have been living for decades.

Secularism is a religion in Turkey and the God is Ataturk. The worst enemy of this religion is not just Islam but its symbols and the greatest defender of this religion used to be(or may be still is) the Army.

The existence of Gul, who has islamic roots, in the Ataturk palace of Chankaya was the first blow to this athiestic religion.

The Turkish elite and those who serve them from Turks all over the country value is reduced to nothing but fornication and alcohol.The same thing goes for the pilliar of their dictatorial principles.Their modernity and relationship to the western civilization is embodied by a porn party in Taksim Square.

Most of their intellectual and writers are worthless and greater contributers to the moral dengeneration of the Turkish society.

Those secualr protestors don't see beyond their alcohol and sex. Their filthy lusts blind them from the fact that their country is still under the mercy of the World Bank and the IMF and the suffocating leach of inflation.

I can understand why Mr Ettefagh equate the Turkish debate of the Headscarve to the American debate of homosexuality. Persians hated the Ottoman Turks just like many of the Arab brigands and pirates of the Arabian peninsula.whcih makes me wonder, if the US and Israel aren't pitting the Persian and Arabis(Shiites and Sunnis) against each other, what would the Iranias do to the Arabs and the rest of the Moslems in the light of the currnet political and economic conditions? We know that the Persian civilization has a beautiful side but what about the other one?